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Symbols Are Not Enough to Win This Battle

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Posted on Jun 23, 2009
AP photo / STR

Iranian riot policemen kick a man as supporters of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi clashed with authorities on Saturday.

By Robert Fisk

This article was originally published in the Independent.

You don’t overthrow Islamic revolutions with car headlights. And definitely not with candles. Peaceful protest might have served Gandhi well, but the Supreme Leader’s Iran is not going to worry about a few thousand demonstrators on the streets, even if they do cry “Allahu Akbar” from their rooftops every night.

This chorus to God emanated from the rooftops of Kandahar every night after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 – I heard it myself in Kandahar and I heard it last week over the rooftops of Tehran – but it no more stopped the Russians in their tracks than it is going to stop the Basiji or Revolutionary Guards. Symbols are not enough.

Yesterday [Monday], the Revolutionary Guards – as unelected as they are unrepresentative of today’s massed youth of Iran – uttered their disgraceful threat to deal with “rioters” in “a revolutionary way”.

Everyone in Iran, even those too young to remember the 1988 slaughter of the regime’s opponents – when tens of thousands were hanged like thrushes on mass gallows – knows what this means.

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Unleashing a rabble of armed government forces on to the streets and claiming that all whom they shoot are “terrorists” is an almost copy-cat perfect version of the Israeli army’s public reaction to the Palestinian intifada. If stone-throwing demonstrators are shot dead, then it is their own fault, they are breaking the law and they are working for foreign powers.

When this happens in the Israeli-occupied territories, the Israelis claim that the foreign powers of Iran and Syria are behind the violence. When this happens on the streets of Iranian cities, the Iranian regime claims that the foreign powers of the United States, Israel and Britain are behind the violence.

And it is indeed an intifada that has broken out in Iran, however hopeless its aims. Millions of Iranians simply no longer accept the rule of law because they believe that the law has been corrupted by a fraudulent election. The dangerous decision by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei to throw his entire prestige behind Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has erased any chance that he could emerge above the battle as a neutral arbiter.

Relatives of Mirhossein Mousavi’s powerful ally Ali Akbar Rafsanjani are arrested then released; Mousavi is threatened with arrest by the Speaker of parliament; yet one of the most socially popular clerics and an ally of Mousavi, Mohamed Khatami, remains untouched.

Mousavi may have been a prime minister, but Khatami was a president. To touch Khatami would take away the future protection of Ahmadinejad. And the latter’s powerful political friend Ayatollah Yazdi, who would like to be the next Supreme Leader, is a threat to Khamenei. And while every bloodied body on the streets of Iran’s cities will now be declared a “terrorist’” by Ahmadinejad’s friends, it will be honoured by his enemies as a martyr.

Mousavi, to win, needs to organise his protest in a more coherent way, not make it up on the hoof. But does Khamenei have a longer-term plan than mere survival?


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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, November 13, 2009 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Don’t confuse passion with hate. Hate breeds hate, violence and destruction and lowers the intelligence of anyone who is afflicted with it. That is the higher areas of the brain are suppressed just leaving the R-Complex or reptile brain active and in charge. So you want fire in the belly then be passionate, not angry. Understand the difference.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, November 13, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

Anger is essential. It propels people to act for justice. To dismantle it, to deny it, is to lose the Fire.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, November 9, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Hate and Passion? Seems Passion may be to hate, which ying is to yang?  One can have happy feeling as emotional passions, maybe one can have happy hates but I do not believe so. Possible only if one has a passion for their hate can they work together? But one can have passion without hate seems to me as in art and many other things. 

Night Gaunt you are an artist, who does not believe has the emotions of passion in art, this seems unlikely to me, maybe graphic arts. Love as passion, the emotion of art may be different for some artists as everything else.

As thoughts not chiseled in stone, for ideas become art.

Seems hate, may not be the same as passion, for I forbid it!

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By Sepharad, November 9, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt,

You’re right: passion and anger are NOT the same thing. I think the dividing line is when the ability to think and respond as human being is burnt away and the desire to attack or hurt the object is acted on. (I use the term subject only with passion; anger is beyond perceiving a subject, sees only an object to be destroyed.) It’s very dangerous to give way to anger in any physical way. One of the worst things about anger is that it is sometimes rooted in some one or some thing at some other time, and can magnify out of all proportion when it bursts over the unfortunate object of the moment.

The most useful things anger can do: create a spark in the belly that will lead to thought or passion or both ... make it too uncomfortable to return to complacency.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, November 9, 2009 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

However I did put passion in quotes because of how they are labeled. I am an artist and I suppose I might lack passion but passion can be fine as long as it isn’t used in the service of anger to promote mayhem and death.

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By Wintersport, November 9, 2009 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

Very nicely put Night-Gaunt. But I disagree unfortunately with your statement about passion.

What kind of species would we be without passion?
A species without Rembrandt’s, Van Gogh’s, Faberge Eggs, Man-made Islands, Walking on the Moon…

They all start with dreams and passion. Without it, we would be nothing unfortunately.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 30, 2009 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

Hate is truly harsh and is like fire. You must be very careful with it because it tends to burn indiscriminently. I work to control my anger which is rare and fleeting when I am afflicted by it. I know there is also a danger of becoming so controlled that response could become dispassionate to the point of lack of caring. I work, as we all should, to maintain balance of forces inside of us.

To me anger like the ego are powerful forces that too often are invoked and produce more harm than good. Don’t confuse passion with anger. Not the same thing. You must at all time maintain control of yourself or you are lost to the darker aspects of our biological and neurological past we carry with us. That is my warning.

What sort of species would we be without the ability to get angry? I think a better one. No ‘passion’ killings, wars, shout fests. You get the idea. I dare say I won’t have many that will agree with me but that is how things are here on earth.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 29, 2009 at 11:07 am Link to this comment

there must be two kinds of Hate also because hating Injustice is good.

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By Virginia777, June 29, 2009 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

no, Leefeller, there are TWO kinds of Anger

anger that produces hate,

and anger that provides a motivator to speak the truth.

that kind is the kind Chris Hedges was talking about.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 29, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

“Anger is a powerful motivator to speak out the Truth”

If anger is a powerful motivator to speak out the Truth, what of bigotry and lies? 

Passion for a cause, does not have anything to do with the truth, anger as hate is a motivator for a cause, but does not have to be the truth? It seems to me anger may be blind to the truth. 

Falling into absolutism’s make a wobbly foundation for any argument, it may be acceptable to instead say, Anger may be a powerful motivator to speak out the Truth, then defining truth becomes a problematic.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 29, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, of course Anger can lead to monstrous Hate (what ardee and ITW spew and all the savage wars and dehumanization),

BUT - Anger is a powerful motivator to speak out the Truth

and Courage is what is needed if you do so

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 29, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Use anger as a motivator but not a sustainer in your actions. It will shut down your higher mental functions, why else does violence erupt?

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 29, 2009 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

Thank you for your beautiful comment, alborz

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 29, 2009 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

no, Night-Gaunt, you need to remember what Chris Hedges said:

“Hope has two sisters which are Anger and Courage”

he was right about that!

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 29, 2009 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Virginia777 I didn’t think I was advocating to reason with your detractors just don’t jump at their bait. Be above them. When you think you need to even it by calling them names instead of calling into question, and defining where they are wrong. Let them be the ones in the gutter. I may not agree with you in many things but I can still respect you. Some just don’t know the difference or learned their technique off of hate radio. Where they are merciless you be merciful. Use your head not your glands (emotion) too much. Don’t rise to or respond to personal attacks. Emotion can sharpen the intellect but too much can shut it down.

Yes in free speech you can dis someone else. You can also be dissed back too. That is the essence of free speech. What, you thought only things that everyone agrees with constituted that?

When you call for someone to die, be killed, attacked for who they are that crosses the line. Being called a “moron” etc by someone you wouldn’t know on the street should keep you protected. That is the time to be “hardened” to it. Especially you.

Even with all of the talk about how Mirhossein Mousavi is so alike Ahmadinajad (to us) it was the fact that the perception was that the vote was interfered with and that the Supreme Ayatolla said it was okay and shouldn’t be questioned that ticked so many off in Iran. With the instability of N.Korea and the threat of force used if any of their ships are interdicted and the coup in Honduras keeping things busy. Nothing stands still.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 29, 2009 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

Folktruther, June 28 at 11:50 pm #

Inherit, the only way that Obama is going to change US Israeli policy is if the population makes him do it.  Because most Zionists are lemmings and all they know is the Aipac line, although the neolibss and the neolcons differ on social questions.

And I don’t see how this is going to happen, especially not without a world boycott.  Most Americans don’t give a rat’s ass not only about the Middle East but foreign policy in general.  so it’s t Obama’s electoral interests to keep promoting Bushite policies on Israel, the fake Roadmap to Peace.

And if the Jewish population is like my relatives, they just don’t know what to do.  They tell me not to cricize all the time, to provide solutions.  They are mistaking me for Jehovah.  At least you don’t make that mistake.
****************************************

You wouldn’t want me to mistake you for Jehovah, since I am, as my wife likes to say, a “Devout” Agnostic…think about it… smile

I agree that pressure from the public on the Govt from Obama to Congress to not put up with Yahoo’s lies and BS is always appropriate.  But if Obama and Congress were to tighten down the faucet a bit so the flow is less, they’ll come around—they’ll have to.

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By Folktruther, June 28, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, the only way that Obama is going to change US Israeli policy is if the population makes him do it.  Because most Zionists are lemmings and all they know is the Aipac line, although the neolibss and the neolcons differ on social questions.

And I don’t see how this is going to happen, especially not without a world boycott.  Most Americans don’t give a rat’s ass not only about the Middle East but foreign policy in general.  so it’s t Obama’s electoral interests to keep promoting Bushite policies on Israel, the fake Roadmap to Peace. 

And if the Jewish population is like my relatives, they just don’t know what to do.  They tell me not to cricize all the time, to provide solutions.  They are mistaking me for Jehovah.  At least you don’t make that mistake.

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By alborz, June 28, 2009 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

mr fisk.i have been reading your work for a while and i have been truly enjoing it.i do repect you and i feel indebted to you.i am sure you realize that our custom-the iranians as well as people of the so calledd middle east -is not to be bold towards elders even when one wants to object.
what has happend in iran recently has not been an islamic revolution.no one purposes to “overthrow an islamic revolution with headlights” .The fight ,the lost hope, is about a fundemantal change in the regime:this total disregard for peoples vote.
i agree with you that symbols will not win this fight. you are dead on in your comparison with israel and so forth.
howevere i cannot help myself that i feel a note of desperation in your writting.
i have no illusion that this “intefada"or bar -pa-khastan,uprising in farsi will be contained.
the o supreme one has a long term plan.he has played his cards.a dynaty a return to the absolute rule of the sultane.
his hubris is his end . i know not when his end will come ,but forgive my flowery language,this is the begining of his end.

so on street as i walk i smell blood and discharged urine of my beaten ,maimed and dead tehranies but for once in this past ten years that i lived in iran as an adult i smell a differnt future brewing.

thanks mr fisk.
ps.i remeber the execution of 1988.i even rembere 1979.

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By kath cantarella, June 28, 2009 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’d just like to say, as a citizen of the rest of the world, and a supporter of the protesters in Iran, i’m really appreciating Mr Obama and the people who voted for him right now. Imagine if McCain was in power? The thought makes me shudder.

Thankyou Mr O, and Democratic voters of the USA. You have made a huge difference to the world. Don’t stop supporting your wise president, and I know you won’t stop critiquing him either. That’s the way it should be.

Love from Oz.

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By Virginia777, June 28, 2009 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt: How do you “reason” with some crazy troll calling you “insane” and worse??

By tolerating all speech as “Free Speech” we by default allow lots of hate speech to enter the arena,

and then, worse, we become indifferent to hate speech, its “punch” gets watered down because everyone feels it “must” be allowed, no matter what.

so they stop hearing it (except for the recipient)

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By Inherit The Wind, June 28, 2009 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, June 28 at 3:17 pm #

Inherit, you state that the majority of Israelis want peace and a two state solution.  well, of course they do.  they may be crazy but they are not stupid.  The present Israeli policies lead to war and the destruction of Israel.  And God knows what destruction that Israeli will inflict.

But the historical problem is not what the PEOPLE WANT but what POWER WANTS.  And the choices of power is often not between the good and bad, but between the bad and worse.  Israeli power is dependant on US power.  The American people may well want a two state solution as well, insofar as they want anything coherant at all politically, but we have to deal with what AMERICAN POWER WANTS.  And what they want is war against Islam to control their oil.  And they are using Israel to help do so militarily.

Therefore the best thing that can happen to Israel is that the US abandons the War on Terrorism.  Make no mistake, this is equivilent to losing it, and when power structures near the end of their life cycle lose wars, it encourages their people to revolt.  And power strutures don’e like revolts that take away their power.

the American people have been deluded and subjugated to the point that they feel that they have lost the ability to change political reality.  globalization has largely destoyed the American unions, depowering the American people.  Some other means must be found for empowering them, and revitalize their demand for reducing the military budget, including the money that funds Israeli imperialism.  this will loosen the US grip on Israel, making Israeli compromise with the Palestinians more viable.

this should be encouraged by boycotts, etc against Israel and increasing the weapons to the Palestinians to make war with them more costly.  I realize that as a Zionist you can’t think clearly in a world historical way about the wretched country, but even morally and intellectually depraved as you are, you must understand that there is no historical solution possible with the position held by all the major Israeli parties.  And the road to such a solution lies through Washinton.
*********************************************

Folktruther, you twit, you were actually making sense until you started attacking me nonsensically.
I don’t completely agree with your analysis, but I don’t think the points I disagree on change the conclusions. (mainly the usual nonsense that we have lost all our power as a people and never really had it—but, as I said, it doesn’t affect the conclusion.

You really must pay attention: I personally don’t agree with a boycott, but for tactical reasons, not strategic.  I much prefer the US Govt actually use our financial and military aid as the cudgel on the Yahoo, rather than cutting our noses off to spite our faces by boycotting businesses in Israel and denying ourselves everything from cell phone technology to robotic pool cleaners.

I HAVE already said so and do advocate Obama using our govt pocketbook to pressure the Israeli govt.  I prefer him to get Congress to back him but if not I’m sure he can use some of the Bush/Cheney precedents to act anyway.  I get the feeling he thinks Bibi Netanyahu is an obnoxious schmuck.  But…it doesn’t take a genius to see that.  He IS an obnoxious schmuck—like Ahmedinejad, but without Ahmedinejad’s amusing clownish behavior.

I think Netanyhu and Lieberman and Likud could conceivably destroy Israel and bring about exactly the catastrophe they think they are working to prevent.

Had you actually READ my recent posts you would have seen this and stopped chewing on that tired old bone that I’m a blind stupid Zionist.  In fact, it is YOU who has been blind.

On the plus side—I appreciated your staying out of the manure pile fight.  When I can, prefer the popcorn route myself!

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

What is with the buxom bosom with the cleft cleavage adds on TD, being annoyed has become my favorite past time, though I do not find the buxom bosom cleavage adds annoying, they do provide a distinct distraction.

Am I the only one who feels these adds seem sexist?  Depending on ones proclivity and in all fairness the adds should show some males in tights with cod pieces to even it out, though in my sexist opinion they would then become annoying.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, June 28, 2009 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

I know it is hard when you are the center of attack by one or more people. It isn’t fair and it distracts us from the information we are conveying to enlighten others with our perceptions and wisdom. But not all like to let others have their say and disagree on merits alone. Personal attacks ensue. It is said that in the Persian courts of the B.C. times that the king would kill messengers who delivered bad news. Much the same here. I gladly take on others who disagree and see if I can persuade them or at least curb their criticism of it and me.

Symbols aren’t enough if they aren’t backed by real actions. Diplomacy over war is better in any case. Fewer tend to die.

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By ardee, June 28, 2009 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

mo?ron
??/?m?r?n, ?mo?r-/ [mawr-on, mohr-]
–noun
1.    a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
2.    Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

Night-Gaunt

I’m going with number one….slang expressions count.

Look, I do take your point, not being a moron and all that. But I do converse rather well with many here, and, if I am overboard with those like Virginia and Martha it is simply because I cant resist replying in kind to them. I also understand that they will certainly expose themselves if given enough rope.

This would be, as you suggest, a better place if we used intellect instead of testosterone. Some just make it harder to do so…...I will try harder to ignore that which I know to be a futile effort.

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By Folktruther, June 28, 2009 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, you state that the majority of Israelis want peace and a two state solution.  well, of course they do.  they may be crazy but they are not stupid.  The present Israeli policies lead to war and the destruction of Israel.  And God knows what destruction that Israeli will inflict.

But the historical problem is not what the PEOPLE WANT but what POWER WANTS.  And the choices of power is often not between the good and bad, but between the bad and worse.  Israeli power is dependant on US power.  The American people may well want a two state solution as well, insofar as they want anything coherant at all politically, but we have to deal with what AMERICAN POWER WANTS.  And what they want is war against Islam to control their oil.  And they are using Israel to help do so militarily.

Therefore the best thing that can happen to Israel is that the US abandons the War on Terrorism.  Make no mistake, this is equivilent to losing it, and when power structures near the end of their life cycle lose wars, it encourages their people to revolt.  And power strutures don’e like revolts that take away their power.

the American people have been deluded and subjugated to the point that they feel that they have lost the ability to change political reality.  globalization has largely destoyed the American unions, depowering the American people.  Some other means must be found for empowering them, and revitalize their demand for reducing the military budget, including the money that funds Israeli imperialism.  this will loosen the US grip on Israel, making Israeli compromise with the Palestinians more viable.

this should be encouraged by boycotts, etc against Israel and increasing the weapons to the Palestinians to make war with them more costly.  I realize that as a Zionist you can’t think clearly in a world historical way about the wretched country, but even morally and intellectually depraved as you are, you must understand that there is no historical solution possible with the position held by all the major Israeli parties.  And the road to such a solution lies through Washinton.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 28, 2009 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

“The examples it(?) used to PROVE my ‘Zionist leanings’ are the best comedic effort seen here in along time. I guess there will always be morons who think opposing opinions are traitorous…....”Ardee

“Morons” are congenitally mentally deficient. Those who do not brook dissent are something else. They are the kind of True Blue Nationalists that have an axe to grind and a point of view that can’t be criticized. A form of psychopathy called a “Spell Binder” is very good at speaking but are also egotists to a pathological degree and either become leaders or terrorists or hermits. Though one can be a nationalist and not be a psychopath of any kind.

The only free speech is that which the majority does not like and must be spoken. The good thing is that others who do disagree can also air their points of contention. Preferably without ad hominim attacks to weaken the argument.

Next time use quotes then deconstruct not substitute name calling which is the last refuge of the idea deficient. You can all do much better people! Try, why don’t you?

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By ardee, June 28, 2009 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

“RD and I disagree on much but I think we agree that Obama’s shot across Netanyahu’s bow is El Alamein of our nations’ relationship.  It needs to be backed up with escalating pressure, until either Netanyahu and the Likud back down, or the Israeli nation wises up and tosses them out and back to the back bench.” 
...................................

I believe we agree on this as well, and the need for much more in the way of leverage to curb Israel’s heinous actions against defenseless peoples.

Further we may also agree that Virginia is more than a bit insane. I am encouraged that her(?) every post of late shows more and more his(?) disturbed and disturbing lack of intellect and hate filled condition that makes even the simple understanding of ones words impossible.

The examples it(?) used to PROVE my ‘Zionist leanings’ are the best comedic effort seen here in along time. I guess there will always be morons who think opposing opinions are traitorous…....

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By Inherit The Wind, June 28, 2009 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 27 at 11:28 pm #

to Ardee:

“find me one such example of my being a “Zionist troll” and paste it here”:

“I wish someone would settle the argument as to what Iran is building there. I hear from that govt about a nuclear generating plant that would produce electricity thus husbanding the oil production for export. Russian technicians are involved in the construction and are supplying the materials, including the radioactive stuff. “


[theres more, but showing what a bully you are, and where (and with who) your “heart” lies, is enough evidence right there]

******************************************

Awwww… Poor wittle Virgin666.  All those mean bullies like ITW and RD are mean and nasty to her!

Whenever she calls them nasty names and make snotty remarks about them, why, they are such bullies that they actually SAY THINGS BACK!

They are not supposed to do that!  WAHHHHH!!! IT’S NOT FAIR!!!!

(just a up-grade translation of Virgin666’s responses to his/her name-calling and toad-dropping insults.)

RD and I disagree on much but I think we agree that Obama’s shot across Netanyahu’s bow is El Alamein of our nations’ relationship.  It needs to be backed up with escalating pressure, until either Netanyahu and the Likud back down, or the Israeli nation wises up and tosses them out and back to the back bench. 

The expansion of settlements cannot be allowed to continue—and the ACKNOWLEDGED illegal settlements must be removed first.(Some settlements Israel acknowledges as illegal—theoretically there should be no issue with the Palestinians about removing THOSE).  It is not appeasement to cease and desist doing that which you acknowledge is illegal.  But it does indicate earnest intent.

Sadly, I agree with even “The Contingent” that Likud’s and Netanyahu’s aim is NOT to achieve a true 2-state solution but to press every advantage, both real and perceived, regardless.  Where I disagree with “TC” is that, IMHO, more Israelis would rather have peace and a TRUE 2-state solution than want to continue with this endless cycle of war.

Generations growing up in war on both sides are dehumanized and becoming killing machines, whether it is young suiciders, guerrillas or IDF recruits.  This is not news.  Northern Ireland is STILL struggling to deal with all the young men who grew up as toughs and killers during “The Troubles”.

Combine that with the inability of BOTH sides to see the other’s side and the pointless war continues.

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Virginia777's avatar

By Virginia777, June 28, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

How nice that the “Civil Liberties” of zionist trolls Ardee and ITW get to be defended here on Truthdig,

at my expense.

If you want to allow unmoderated Trolls on a blog, you are going to get base name-calling and character assassination.

You can’t say “don’t agitate them”, because they are HERE to agitate,

and especially to attack those who say what they don’t want to hear.

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By ardee, June 28, 2009 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

pgg804, June 27 at 9:59 pm #

To Ardee:

You wrote “I do not see an end to American interventionism, for whatever reason, until we the people take back our government from those who now own it”.  Two American professor’s have written a book on who owns a good part of it.  Rather than insulting those who don’t like the way the US government is being used to kill millions of Arabs (over 1 million dead in Iraq alone), you should try and find an answer to your question above - what is the reason for American interventionism?
.................................

Firstly, and importantly, I do not have to suffer for your desire to twist my reason to your own purpose. Those I insult have always struck the first blow, and my words are not a result of their support for, or opposition to, any policy or policy change.

Let me make this perfectly clear, I am not a supporter of the State of Israel, never have and never will be until such time as they end their heinous policies against the Palestinian people. I have posted many references to my opposition to the deeds of Israel, and the intent of the future govt.of Israel to oust the indigenous Arab population years before there even was a state of Israel. But that doesnt suit some trollish morons here who believe any deviation from their party line, any call to sanity and reality, marks one as the enemy.

As to the book you noted, I do not quibble with the data noting the enormous resources provided Israel by the USA, only with the contention that follows that data. Israel does not wag the dog here, US policies, whether towards Israel, or China, or any other nation on the planet, stems from and occurs because of US needs and desires. To believe that Israel runs our Middle East policy is to open the door to the seamy side of anti-Jewish sentiment, period, and does not deal with politics.

The USA is the biggest terrorist group in the world, it causes more harm than all the crazies out there many time over. Its policies re: the Middle East are designed to capture the oil and exclude Russia and China from the mix. Whether invading Iraq and Afghanistan or supporting Israel with military hardware the goal is the same, US imperialism sparked by rampant and out of control capitalism. Israel is simply a tool in the belt of America’s plans, and certainly nothing more.

The ultimate enemy is capitalism and not world wide Jewry. Further, those like that mouth breathing moron, Virginia, whose desperate effort to portray me as a Zionist resulted in its posting of quotes of mine not even relevant to Israel or politics either. Nice job in exposing herself frankly.

“We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity. But, in the end, it is counter productive…Im trying to work on it.”

“I wish someone would settle the argument as to what Iran is building there. I hear from that govt about a nuclear generating plant that would produce electricity thus husbanding the oil production for export. Russian technicians are involved in the construction and are supplying the materials, including the radioactive stuff. “

and finally a true statement about that slime trail leaving mental midget if ever there was one:

“You are really an embarrassment, both to political debate and to the human race in general. Whenever you read something with which you disagree you immediately spew your ignorant bile all over this forum, irrational and untruthful seems not to bother you at all.”

Only one fixated on a goal, not willing or able to enter into honest debate would post such as those quotes and think they mean what she says they do, again, Virginia , thanks for the proof of your complete lack of worth.

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By ardee, June 28, 2009 at 5:17 am Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 27 at 11:28 pm

You sadly do not realize how this citing of my “zionism” marks you as abysmally ignorant, agendized and grasping at straws.

In fact your tacit denial of the possible truth of my statement regarding Iran’s intent to produce nuclear energy rather than military hardware seems to align you with the neocons in our government.

Do you know that Iran lies about its intentions? Do you have proof that Russia is deceiving the world by helping Iran build a bomb? Do you have shred of dignity or decency?

No, sadly, you are a half witted troll who seeks only to spread dissension and distraction on these pages. My statement that Iran may very well be seeking to generate electricity thus husbanding their precious oil for sale in no way detracts from or supports Israeli issues. Saying it does makes you the fool.

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

to Ardee:

“find me one such example of my being a “Zionist troll” and paste it here”:

“I wish someone would settle the argument as to what Iran is building there. I hear from that govt about a nuclear generating plant that would produce electricity thus husbanding the oil production for export. Russian technicians are involved in the construction and are supplying the materials, including the radioactive stuff. “


[theres more, but showing what a bully you are, and where (and with who) your “heart” lies, is enough evidence right there]

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

to Ardee:

“find me one such example of my being a “Zionist troll” and paste it here”:

to “Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 11:36 pm

“We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity. But, in the end, it is counter productive…Im trying to work on it.”

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

to Ardee:

“find me one such example of my being a “Zionist troll” and paste it here”:

“You are really an embarrassment, both to political debate and to the human race in general. Whenever you read something with which you disagree you immediately spew your ignorant bile all over this forum, irrational and untruthful seems not to bother you at all.”

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By pgg804, June 27, 2009 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

To Ardee:

You wrote “I do not see an end to American interventionism, for whatever reason, until we the people take back our government from those who now own it”.  Two American professor’s have written a book on who owns a good part of it.  Rather than insulting those who don’t like the way the US government is being used to kill millions of Arabs (over 1 million dead in Iraq alone), you should try and find an answer to your question above - what is the reason for American interventionism?

In March 2006 the respected publication “The London Review of Books”  published a review of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt’s book,  “The Israel Lobby”.  Mearsheimer is a professor at the University of Chicago and Walt is a professor at Harvard University.  These two respected professors write on the power of AIPAC , ADL and other Jewish organizations and their powerful influence on the US government in relation to the middle east.  The Jewish lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in the USA (probably the most powerful).  The editor of the LRB is a Jewish woman and she said she published this book review because the evidence the two professors presented was so strong.  If you missed it, this book was widely discussed in the media (New York Times, TV programs, etc.) .  It caused quite a stir.

From “The Israel Lobby” 

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget”

Rather than throwing out some more insults, take a 1/2 hour to read this article.  It may not be as much fun as calling someone an “asshole”, but its much more informative and partially answers your question.

Here is the article:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

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By ardee, June 27, 2009 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 27 at 12:25 pm #

and Ardee:

“We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity”

“We” who? “we” well-paid, Zionist trolls like yourself?

“finely-tuned”??

Hardly!
......................

I will put to you the same challenge I put to your equally imbecilic allies. Find me one such example of my being a “Zionist troll” and paste it here.

You are really an embarrassment, both to political debate and to the human race in general. Whenever you read something with which you disagree you immediately spew your ignorant bile all over this forum, irrational and untruthful seems not to bother you at all.

Are you, I wonder, under the care of a mental health professional? You desperately need such a stabilizing influence in your life I believe, or a change of medication perhaps.

Listen you useless troll, I drive a tractor trailer for a public utility, a job I love dearly. I am paid to do that and nothing else. So put up or shut the F#$% up, one example of my zionist scribblings…

what an asshole you are.

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By ardee, June 27, 2009 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

I’d really like to see us stay out.  If the Bush regime spent money to “destabilize” Iran, it should be put to better uses.  Sure, cheer from the sidelines—that’s OK.  But more?  Not needed, not wise.
.....................

I agree, ITW, that this country of ours needs to focus a whole lot more on its internal problems and stay the hell out of the internal problems of other nations. Of course, when it is our own corporate structures that cause many of these problems, remaining aloof gets more complex.

I do not see an end to American interventionism, for whatever reason, until we the people take back our government from
those who now own it.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 27, 2009 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

[ardee, June 27 at 11:18 am #

Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 11:36 pm

Lying down with dogs gets one only fleas…While I understand you to be a master of the bile filled response ( and I thought that I was good) all you do is tickle their need for attention, any attention even or maybe especially , negative attention.

We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity. But, in the end, it is counter productive…Im trying to work on it.
***************************************

Ah, you’re probably right, RD.  Notice that Virgin666 fired off a series of posts they were exactly as I called it: Nasty little toads with no content, and kissing Mr. Xerox’s….assets.  She/he even belittles my attempt to get back ON TOPIC!

I picked Virgin666 since then essence of evil is a closed unused mind.  “Ginny’s” has never been penetrated with ideas or logic—a virgin brain—un-penetrated.

Yet, back on topic, I’d really like to see us stay out.  If the Bush regime spent money to “destabilize” Iran, it should be put to better uses.  Sure, cheer from the sidelines—that’s OK.  But more?  Not needed, not wise.

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By Folktruther, June 27, 2009 at 11:25 am Link to this comment

After Truthout delected Weissman’s article on US manipulation of the Iran “Stolen Election” and aftermath, they have replaced it, possibly becausse they are trying to raise money from the rank and file (I wouldn’t give them a cent.) 

The piece detalis the funding by the Zionist billionaire Peter Ackerman of the training of Irani demonstrators and his cordination with the CIA and other agency funding of terrorism in Iran.  During this period mosques have been blown up killing and maiming hundreds of people and Irani security people and others shot by gunfire.

As soon as this becomes widely known in Iran, the “Reformist” movment will collapse for a while, and possibly the US will go back to threatening to bomb.  The US Big Lie of a “Stolen Election’ is not really a bigger Big Lie than Weapons of Mass Destruction, of the Darfur Genicide, other American lies about oil and war, but it is one which is most obviously deceptive. 

Unfortunately most Americans are not interested in foreign affairs and not only don’t know much about geostrategy, what they know is wrong, having been deluded by the learned and mass media.

Consequently, the simple reality-based truth about people and power is both unpatriotic and uneducated, making it inaccessable and unacceptuable to the Educated classes.  The simple truth is what Michael Parenti called a DIRTY truth, which is excluded from the nice clean santized truth of the mainstream media.  the historicaal problem is how to get this truth to the population, who don’t want to know it.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 27, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

After so much Snark jumping I am ready to say whew! Is it finally over? But then who should care what another thinks of them? As for Iran the best thing our warmongering country can do is to just watch and be ready for diplomatic action with Ahmandinajad who is in place no matter how he was put there. [The numbers even in the home towns of the opposition were so extreme from any previous time it begs the question of interference in the vote count.]

The US has so many voting problems of its own that it would be the height of hippocrasy to condemn what a theocratic dictatorship does to its play at limited democracy. [What no condemnation of our theocratic and dictatorial allies Saudi Arabia and Egypt?]

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

or rather, maybe the Ayatollah’s not cool.

oh well!!

we have PLENTY of our own, much worse problems to deal with here, in OUR own Country.

We are dealing with the wreckage (literally!) of a Dictator who wrecked our economy and (obviously) stole our Media.

Why in the world (I heard Republicans in the Senate are urging action against Iran) would we, WE, in the mess we are in,

not want to deal with OUR own mess??

and let the Iranians deal with theirs.

(we can actually get it fixed if we focus on it)

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

Robert you are so right on, and the Zionist trolls can’t stand that (obviously)

They can’t stand that a place exists that won’t fall for their lies, distortions and self-serving agendas.

too bad!!

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

and Ardee:

“We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity”

“We” who? “we” well-paid, Zionist trolls like yourself?

“finely-tuned”??

Hardly!

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By Virginia777, June 27, 2009 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

you are right Robert!

I love it when ITW give this bit of “content” in the middle of his name-calling and ranting:

“Ahmedinejad…thought he was going to lose then magically wins…The Ayatollah responds not with wisdom and insight from his being named Supreme Leader, but with tin-pot dictator spite and threats and violence in the streets.”

unh-huh, yeah right!

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By ardee, June 27, 2009 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 11:36 pm

Lying down with dogs gets one only fleas…While I understand you to be a master of the bile filled response ( and I thought that I was good) all you do is tickle their need for attention, any attention even or maybe especially , negative attention.

We have in common a finely tuned sense of outrage and an apparent need to expose hypocrisy and perceived stupidity. But, in the end, it is counter productive…Im trying to work on it.

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

Great expensive job ...ITW….Not cheap…you are a real professional! Don’t stop…keep going!  LOL!

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By Inherit The Wind, June 26, 2009 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

The three of you are like Moe, Larry, and Curly, the Three Stooges..

Oh, No! they can’t be—Moe and Curly Howard, and Larry Fine were all Jews!

Virgin666 is trying desperately to get around his/her pattern of dropping toads and then whining when anyone says “Boo!” back like a little child.

Mr. Xerox is the spoiled brat who expects everyone to marvel over his tiresome quotes of everyone else and hurls insults, slurs and downright slanders when his crap (and it is crap) is labeled as what it is.  Xerox thinks he’s brilliant, but he’s not even very bright. He’s not even CLEVER at his insults—just nasty and stupid.

As for PGG: He defends Hitler’s attack on Poland on September 1, 1939, the attack that started the BIGGEST mass slaughter in history, as perfectly justified.  Need I say more to any thinking mind?

Virgin666, Mr. Xerox and The Nazi Defender…three real gems for TD.

KD: the only ones stealing the election in Iran are the ones in power.

Ahmedinejad is cited RIGHT HERE on TruthDig as saying before the election the very things a loser says when he knows he is losing.  HE thought he was going to lose then magically wins…The Ayatollah responds not with wisdom and insight from his being named Supreme Leader, but with tin-pot dictator spite and threats and violence in the streets.

But FT can’t get past the idea that sometimes, somebody who OPPOSES the US, may ACTUALLY not be a paragon or even a decent person.  If he did, he’d see that what is going on in Iran NOW is internal.  Sure, it may have ultimately had its roots in the 1953 coup, but the past is only prologue to the decisions made here and now by the people of Iran.

On one thing Ed Harges and I agree—we need to NOT interfere.  Voicing opinions is one thing, interference is something else and we shouldn’t do it.  (We also agreed on Mark Sanford—but that’s not relevant to this).

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, pgg804

ITW can’t seem to get out of that nasty neutral gear. Sooner or later he’ll start throwing that ADL “anti-semetic” worn out tactics, and I noticed that he just did. He can’t help himself…his head is locked up in that zionism box…perhaps forever.

I’ll continue to post the TRUTH about your Nazi zionist/Apartheid Israel…ITW.

I noticed that FT is NOT falling for your sneaky & deceptive fish hooks. He is too wise & he called you out many months ago. He can see right through your zionist crap!

Keep it up ITW. You are doing a great expensive job. You are NOT cheap. TD posters need to see your zionist rants…more & more!

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By pgg804, June 26, 2009 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

To Virginia777:

I agree.  But this ITW’s pattern when he feels he’s losing an argument.  He resorts to insults.

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By Virginia777, June 26, 2009 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

The only good part of your boorish rant ITW, and this is a VERY good part,

is that you are considerably weakening your Zionist Agenda by this “performance” of yours.

Who could possibly be convinced of anything you have said after this (embarrassing) tirade?

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By Inherit The Wind, June 26, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Robert, June 26 at 5:38 pm #

Hey Virginia777,

There goes that ITW playing the victim as he has done so many times on TD. I wonder if ITW has the integrity to tell us if he has pressed “report this” on TD and if he did, how many times?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


By Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 5:10 pm #

“FT: You asked my not to call Virgin666 an asshole.  But what has he/she posted in this thread but truly asshole remarks—and pretending she/he didn’t ask EH and other to help get me banned?”


********************************************

I press it every time I see one of you idiot posts, Mr. Xerox…so that’s about 20-30 times a day.  But that’s not to censor you but an esthetic criticism on an anti-semitic fool who never had an original idea in his head.  Sometimes I push it 4, 5,10 or 20 times…..it feeels SOOOOOOOOOO good!  Like a little cheap orgasm each time…

But Virgin666 is so stupid, shallow and cowardly that there just isn’t that reaction…I always seem to yawn first….

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Hey Virginia777,

There goes that ITW playing the victim as he has done so many times on TD. I wonder if ITW has the integrity to tell us if he has pressed “report this” on TD and if he did, how many times?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


By Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 5:10 pm #

“FT: You asked my not to call Virgin666 an asshole.  But what has he/she posted in this thread but truly asshole remarks—and pretending she/he didn’t ask EH and other to help get me banned?”

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By Inherit The Wind, June 26, 2009 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

FT:

Once again you show yourself to be a true genius when comparing to the moronic postings of Virgin666 and Mr. Xerox, aka Robert.

Your whole argument hangs together, seems to make sense and is very scary in its conclusions.

Too bad it’s pure crap because it’s based on several totally discredited assumptions—like Ahmedinejad won by a landslide and Iran is NOT an oppressive regime—and EVERYTHING in the media is a lie except what you, FT,  know…somehow…from totally dubious sources OR from mis-reading legitimate ones.

But, after having to endure the drivel for the last few days of Virgin666 and Mr. Xerox, it’s still a relief and refreshing to have SOMETHING to actually discuss, argue disprove/prove, etc, like grownups.

That’s why I like arguing with Shingo—he’s more openminded than any of “The Contingent” who, other than FT, are all over me like angry Scientologists.

FT: You asked my not to call Virgin666 an asshole.  But what has he/she posted in this thread but truly asshole remarks—and pretending she/he didn’t ask EH and other to help get me banned?

It’s an idiot plot—if you have a message that needs to get to the majority, banning anyone who disagrees with you guarantees your message won’t get beyond those who share your opinion.  At least you recognize that, FT.

Besides, like me, you’d be bored if I wasn’t here to challenge you!

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By KDelphi, June 26, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

“So the current “Stolen Election” strategy is a replay of putting in the Shah in 1953.  After all it worked before.  The US has funded an number of terrorist groups that are blowing up mosques, and the “Reformists” are shooting at the unarmed teen age religious police, killing eight of them so far.

The US has heated by the class struggle in Iran, the Reformists having a legitimate point in wanting social-cultural freedoms, but whose leaders want to privatize the economy in neoliberal style, led by Rafsanjani.  But you wouldn’t think that terrorism would be effective in this kind of situation…”

Folktruther has it in a nutshell.

USANS will watch an “almost-identical” situation and see no connection , whatsoever, as long as you keep saying its about “fridom” or “decmocracy”...

Virginia777- It is not possible to “answer them as they deserve” if you censor them. They will still feel the same way, it just wont be out in the open.

That saying, “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still..” or however it goes.

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By chrsm, June 26, 2009 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/articles/39/Who_wins_if_Iran_loses_.html

This is an interesting commentary written by a commentator based in Dubai. FT editorial in June 15 also made a comment about class war nature of this Iran election.

“Change for the poor means food and jobs, not a relaxed dress code or mixed recreation…Politics in Iran is a lot more about class war than religion.” Financial Times Editorial, June 15 2009

This commentary asks:  “By refusing to bow to the dictates of big bullies and “big Satan” and “small Satan,” Iran defiantly charted a new path for itself 30 years ago by turning to religion for guidance. This experiment — however flawed — has demonstrated that Islam and democracy can coexist and are not mutually exclusive. Who would benefit if it is proved otherwise? Who stands to win if Iran is lost?”
Who stands to win indeed? We know whom Fisk wants to win.

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By Virginia777, June 26, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

but Folktruther, have we seen a LIE on this scale before?

I mean this Iran issue, this is a real illustration of the extent of the loss of honest Press,

its huge!

Thank God for Truthdig! (100x over again)

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By Folktruther, June 26, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

This “Iran Stolen Election” is a good model for how the media instills Big Lies.  A landslide election occurs in a country which has a tradition of honest counting, and it is labeled by the US media the exact opposite of what it is, and calls for canceling it. 

Then the issue goes off the headlines and front pages and the American people are left with the impression that the election was rigged and frudulent, this being the US media consensus, including the pseudo-Progressive conensus, which is echoed back and forth in the maistream media.

Afterward the media state that the real issue is not the election at all but the revolt after the election, which appears to be largely provoked by the US and Britain to subvert the election.  Britain, according to a recent New Yorker article, has a good Persian language station that the Educated classes can get.  The terrorism that the US finances in Iran can then be justified on the basis that the election was rigged, and the US is promoting Freedom&Democracy;, as it is in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfar, etc.

For this to work effectively, it is necessary to include the pseudo-progressive media, the Dem leaders, and the pseudo-progressive public intellectuals, who do not attack the obvious deceit.  Since most Americans are concerned mostly about their personal affairs and are depoliticized, conceiving politics to be a contest between the Dems and Gops, that will come away with the feeling that Iran is an oppressive regime.  This will then legitmate a war with Iran, just as Weapons of Mass Destruction legitimated a war with Iraq.

It is a very effective untruth system, especially as it is unpatriotic to argue that the US powerful are lying and Iran is telling the truth.  The US can therefore pose as a defender of Democracy while calling for the annulment of a Democratic eleciton, and while supporting despotic tyrants in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and around the world.

Since the US powerstate is conducting a truth war against the American people to get them to identify iwth policies that are against their vital interests, it is necessary to develop a truth resistence to these Big Lies.  It is therefore necessary to begin by devoping a truth struggle against the pseudo-Progressive truthers who support the Big Lies of the US powerful.  But how could such a countertruth campaign be conducted in the US postmodern police state?

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, June 26, 2009 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

RE:  Inherit the Wind

“A turn of phase is not a copyrightable item, just like a title isn’t.  Otherwise, the estate of H.G.Wells could have sued Ralph Ellison for using the title “The Invisible Man”.  Both are classics for different reasons.”

Actually, the title of Ellison’s novel is “Invisible Man”.  And what’s a turn of phase?

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, June 26 at 11:45 am #

Robert, June 26 at 10:52 am #

By Virginia777, June 26 at 1:31 am #

Thanks, Robert, I know that ITW is just a dumb troll, I know the type well! (too well)

They throw out frothing insults as a last resort, when they are cornered in their illogic.

and yes, I always say trolls are trying to shut you up, so don’t!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Virginia777,

Zionist propagandists don’t like the TRUTH about their beloved Israel’s racist policies, war crimes & its brutal murderers, the IDF, to be exposed and posted. They usually will attempt to divert the topic, employ nasty attacks, and most of all use sneaking deceptive tactics to throw you off course.

They seem to have a “PR” agenda to plant doubt & the use of deceptive tactics for their propaganda. So Virginia, don’t let any of these pale tactics get in your way of posting the TRUTH.

BTW, ITW is using the terms “gangbang” & “the contingent” which shenonymous used on a previous TD thread.

The TRUTh is on the side of the oppressed !
*********************************************

Yes, Robert, you clown, I AM using Shenon’s phrases.  It’s a COMPLIMENT to her excellent writing—a skill you decidedly LACK.

A turn of phase is not a copyrightable item, just like a title isn’t.  Otherwise, the estate of H.G.Wells could have sued Ralph Ellison for using the title “The Invisible Man”.  Both are classics for different reasons.

Since the ONLY creative thinking you can do is low, scummy insults that reflect your true intelligence level, you spend all your time diggin’ up other peoples’ work to post.

But I give you credit—at least your posts contribute more than anything Virgin666 posts.  He/she posts nothing but insults and crap.  Of course, Robert, you should probably consider being told your posts are better than “Ginny’s” to be damning with faint praise…and you’d be right.

Geez, EH and FT look like friggin’ Albert Einstein next to you two! At least the crap they post is INTELLIGENT.

But keep posting you pair of hypocrites—exercise the free speech you would happily deny to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ITW…just keeps foaming. He likes to dish it out, but can’t seem to take it. Practice what you are trying to preach…moron!

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By Inherit The Wind, June 26, 2009 at 8:45 am Link to this comment

Robert, June 26 at 10:52 am #

By Virginia777, June 26 at 1:31 am #

Thanks, Robert, I know that ITW is just a dumb troll, I know the type well! (too well)

They throw out frothing insults as a last resort, when they are cornered in their illogic.

and yes, I always say trolls are trying to shut you up, so don’t!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Virginia777,

Zionist propagandists don’t like the TRUTH about their beloved Israel’s racist policies, war crimes & its brutal murderers, the IDF, to be exposed and posted. They usually will attempt to divert the topic, employ nasty attacks, and most of all use sneaking deceptive tactics to throw you off course.

They seem to have a “PR” agenda to plant doubt & the use of deceptive tactics for their propaganda. So Virginia, don’t let any of these pale tactics get in your way of posting the TRUTH.

BTW, ITW is using the terms “gangbang” & “the contingent” which shenonymous used on a previous TD thread.

The TRUTh is on the side of the oppressed !
*********************************************

Yes, Robert, you clown, I AM using Shenon’s phrases.  It’s a COMPLIMENT to her excellent writing—a skill you decidedly LACK.

A turn of phase is not a copyrightable item, just like a title isn’t.  Otherwise, the estate of H.G.Wells could have sued Ralph Ellison for using the title “The Invisible Man”.  Both are classics for different reasons.

Since the ONLY creative thinking you can do is low, scummy insults that reflect your true intelligence level, you spend all your time diggin’ up other peoples’ work to post.

But I give you credit—at least your posts contribute more than anything Virgin666 posts.  He/she posts nothing but insults and crap.  Of course, Robert, you should probably consider being told your posts are better than “Ginny’s” to be damning with faint praise…and you’d be right.

Geez, EH and FT look like friggin’ Albert Einstein next to you two! At least the crap they post is INTELLIGENT. 

But keep posting you pair of hypocrites—exercise the free speech you would happily deny to me.

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, June 26 at 11:21 am #

“The TRUTH is on the side of the oppressed!”—Robert

“That may be so but it is very hard for it to get past the corporate media blockade to reach enough people to matter.

Virginia777 I am sorry if I wasn’t clear. The good thing about open forums is that just as the least of us can get their say so do the best of us get to counter them. It was my fault for not being clear enough to you. [You thought I didn’t want to go up against the haters, you are wrong.]

However going into the gutter to fight gutter trash on their terms is wrong. Just as the way you fight fires isn’t with more fire but with water to put the flames out early. Not to carbonize everything in a Pyhrric victory. Remember Nietzsche‘s warning?“Understand your enemy well for you risk becoming him if you aren’t careful.” [paraphrased]

One can criticize another without getting so personal. It is one of the banes of the internet that civility is lost so easily. One can still find errors in others without always attaching motives of deceit, but it still can be there.

I just ask everyone to think before they write something angry and attacking another that is of a personal nature more than the content of their thread. Or at least be more tactful, please?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Night-Gaunt,

Sooner or later the TRUTH will get out past the “corporate media blockade”. We just have to be diligent & persistent with this important goal.

Thanks for the good post!

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By Night-Gaunt, June 26, 2009 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

“The TRUTH is on the side of the oppressed!”Robert

That may be so but it is very hard for it to get past the corporate media blockade to reach enough people to matter.

Virginia777 I am sorry if I wasn’t clear. The good thing about open forums is that just as the least of us can get their say so do the best of us get to counter them. It was my fault for not being clear enough to you. [You thought I didn’t want to go up against the haters, you are wrong.]

However going into the gutter to fight gutter trash on their terms is wrong. Just as the way you fight fires isn’t with more fire but with water to put the flames out early. Not to carbonize everything in a Pyhrric victory. Remember Nietzsche‘s warning?“Understand your enemy well for you risk becoming him if you aren’t careful.” [paraphrased]

One can criticize another without getting so personal. It is one of the banes of the internet that civility is lost so easily. One can still find errors in others without always attaching motives of deceit, but it still can be there.

I just ask everyone to think before they write something angry and attacking another that is of a personal nature more than the content of their thread. Or at least be more tactful, please?

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By Robert, June 26, 2009 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

By Virginia777, June 26 at 1:31 am #

Thanks, Robert, I know that ITW is just a dumb troll, I know the type well! (too well)

They throw out frothing insults as a last resort, when they are cornered in their illogic.

and yes, I always say trolls are trying to shut you up, so don’t!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Virginia777,

Zionist propagandists don’t like the TRUTH about their beloved Israel’s racist policies, war crimes & its brutal murderers, the IDF, to be exposed and posted. They usually will attempt to divert the topic, employ nasty attacks, and most of all use sneaking deceptive tactics to throw you off course.

They seem to have a “PR” agenda to plant doubt & the use of deceptive tactics for their propaganda. So Virginia, don’t let any of these pale tactics get in your way of posting the TRUTH.

BTW, ITW is using the terms “gangbang” & “the contingent” which shenonymous used on a previous TD thread.

The TRUTh is on the side of the oppressed !

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By Virginia777, June 26, 2009 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

to Folktruther:

isn’t that crazy?? we are fed lies by our MS Media who wants us to be emotionally involved in a “stolen election” in Iran (hmmm, I wonder why?),

when we had a “stolen election” right here, that caused untold damage to our Country, as great as any “war” could have caused.

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By Virginia777, June 26, 2009 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

to pgg804:

Thats really interesting. It means that ITW is cribbing from other commentators, studying other’s comments for his arsenal.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 26, 2009 at 4:42 am Link to this comment

Virginia777, June 26 at 1:31 am #

Thanks, Robert, I know that ITW is just a dumb troll, I know the type well! (too well)

They throw out frothing insults as a last resort, when they are cornered in their illogic.

and yes, I always say trolls are trying to shut you up, so don’t!!
*********************************************

You are such friggin’ hypocrite, Ginny! Just two days ago you were BEGGING everyone to press “Report This” to convince the mods at TruthDig to SHUT ME UP!  Even Ed Harges stepped in to effectively say “Drop it!” (thanks EH)

Now you accuse me of doing EXACTLY what you were doing just a couple of days ago—please show me where I tried to get a gang of people together to petition the moderators to shut YOU off.

You can’t because you are a liar, a hypocrite, and, ultimately, a coward who can’t face the heat of having his/her idiot, bigoted opinions challenged.

As for PGG—he’s a flat-out Holocaust-denier and defender of Hitler’s attack on Poland to start WWII.  Anybody who puts ANY stock in anything he posts is either an idiot or morally bankrupt.

Robert, I’m glad I give you a laugh. I don’t actually believe you, since any direct criticism I make of you results in massive amounts of illogical bile and venom—not the sign of someone laughing, is it. You don’t bother me either, most of the time, since I stopped reading your borrowed interminable posts long ago.

BTW, gang, teaming up to “gangbang” me is fruitless. I can and will give as good as I get or better!  Meanwhile, you can all keep up your circle jerk of each other. Stroke each others….egos.

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By Folktruther, June 25, 2009 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment

That’s an interesting thought,Virgina, and may not be unrelated to Obama getting the US into so many wars. Groups that want war apparently have no comupunction to assassinate.  Kennedy was killed after not continuing the Cuban war and showing hesitancy in the Vietnam war, and King after uniting the civil rights and anti-war movements.  Clinton was impeached on absurd charges after not embarking on a war agenda of the Bushites.

The emerging theme by pro-wr psedu-progressives now is that it doesn’t matter aboout the election, we have to support the “Reformists.”  The “stolen Election” ruse might serve as a kind of “shock” in the sense of Naoimi Klein.

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

to Sepharad:

I am glad you are familiar with MLK, for your granddaughter’s sake as well as your own.

I am sure you understand what this means, if you agree with King,

that we place the needs of our own countries poor above the “need” for ANY more wars.

MLK was anti-war, remember?

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

Thanks, Robert, I know that ITW is just a dumb troll, I know the type well! (too well)

They throw out frothing insults as a last resort, when they are cornered in their illogic.

and yes, I always say trolls are trying to shut you up, so don’t!!

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By pgg804, June 25, 2009 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

I found Inherit the Wind’s comment to Robert on June 25 very interesting.  But while he accused Robert of not being original, he displayed his own lack of originality.  ITW said:

ITW June 25
“See, Robert never had an original idea in the time he’s been posting.  All he does is post OTHER PEOPLE’S WORK and does no thinking of his own.

So he posts these endless articles of other peoples, like an evangelist endlessly quoting irrelevancies from the Bible.”


After reading this, for a moment I was thinking where have I heard that sentiment before.  But the answer was easy.  I said almost exactly the same thing to ITW on a June 14 posting (11 days earlier) on a different article.  I said:

pgg804 June 14
“You’re incapable of thinking on your own…  Only someone incapable of formulating a thought on his own (and has to cite a historians opinion) would say that…  You are a like robot that would never say anything original.”


If it wasn’t for the rewording of the paragraph, I think ITW’s statement would come close to plagiarism.

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By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Israeli troops humiliate Palestinians - and put it on YouTube

06.19.2009 | Haaretz

“Forty-three seconds: that’s the duration of a video clip uploaded to YouTube less than a year ago under the category of “Comedy.”

For the “hero” of the clip, an unidentified young Arab, they were probably eternally long seconds and far from amusing. He was forced to slap himself and sing to the jubilant shouts of the photographer and his buddies - all of them members of Israel’s Border Police.


This clip, which has been viewed more than 2,800 times, shows the unknown Palestinian standing in a desert setting while a disembodied voice orders him in Hebrew to hit himself: “Yallah, start, do it hard!”

The viewers hear the chuckles of the other policemen and a clear voice telling the Arab: “Say ‘Ana behibak Mishmar Hagvul’ [“I love the Border Police? in a mix of Arabic and Hebrew]. Say it!”

They see him obey in a subdued voice and with a frightened look, even as he goes on slapping himself. They hear the “director” laughing and the faceless voice shouting: “Again! Ana behibak Mishmar Hagvul.”

After a little more than 30 seconds, the voice says, “Say ‘Wahad hummus wahad ful’” - and the Arab man obeys and then is told to complete the rhyme: “Ana behibak Mishmar Hagvul.”

After 40 seconds, the abusers appear to have had enough and the voice impatiently orders the victim: “Yallah, rukh, rukh, rukh” (”go”). The camera turns and for a fraction of a second a Border Police Jeep is visible.

A few dozen viewers sent comments. “Hahahaha, it was great the way he excruciated himself.” Another added: “That’s how it should be!!!!! Stinking Arab.”

And a third pointed out, “He should have been shot!! Sons of bitches.” A few viewers took pity on the victim, though with reservations. One person remarked, “Mercy on the guy, even if he’s an Arab. What’s it in aid of? He didn?’t do anything.””

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/watch-the-jewish-nazis-watch-the-jewish-nazis-having-fun-watch-them-and-then-hope-and-pray-they-burn-in-hell/

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By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

ITW…Practice what you are trying to preach! Your nasty PR agenda is stuck in neutral & your frothing ways are too familiar to many on TD.

You honestly don’t bother me the least bit; I just laugh at your garbage.

Its time to hit the TRUTH trails !

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By Inherit The Wind, June 25, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Robert, June 25 at 10:03 pm #

ITW’s state of mind has been going downhill lately ever since he got fired from work & has shifted into a neutral nasty gear.

As I have told you so many times…not to read my posts at all. What you read & don’t read is no concern of mine at all. Your sneaky ways are too familiar on TD. BTW, I know that other people do read what I post & that is what matters on the TRUTH route.
*************************************

...And this is how Robert ALWAYS reacts when he is challenged—with mind-numbing ad hominem attacks with no facts just lots of innuendo and nasty insults.

Yes, Robert. I lost my job. Does that make you happy? Some greedy capitalists who thought they could scam a bunch of “dummies” into signing bogus contracts with them to be clients, and didn’t, bought the company I worked for and decided to “downsize” and get rid of me, one of their most experienced professionals, because I was expensive, not cheap.

I guess in your mind that makes me a lesser human being, right?

I ignore you generally because you are a dogmatic prick.  Which, of course, you prove every time you have to actually WRITE something yourself when you post, as opposed to stealing someone else’s ideas and brains.

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By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

ITW’s state of mind has been going downhill lately ever since he got fired from work & has shifted into a neutral nasty gear.

As I have told you so many times…not to read my posts at all. What you read & don’t read is no concern of mine at all. Your sneaky ways are too familiar on TD. BTW, I know that other people do read what I post & that is what matters on the TRUTH route.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 25, 2009 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

Robert, June 25 at 8:17 pm #

Virginia777, don’t you lose any sleep over what ITW tries to post here; its all about his love for zionism & its agendas. He would like to see you leave TD & that would be one less person on TD who posts the TRUTH about zionism, Israel’s racist policies & war crimes.

So, stick around TD & help expose the TRUTH !
*****************************************

Hey! A post of Robert’s that I actually read! See, Robert never had an original idea in the time he’s been posting.  All he does is post OTHER PEOPLE’S WORK and does no thinking of his own.

So he posts these endless articles of other peoples, like an evangelist endlessly quoting irrelevancies from the Bible,  and I stopped wasting any time reading them a long, long time ago.  I just skip ‘em like the comics I don’t like to read in the funny pages.

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By Folktruther, June 25, 2009 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

The major concern of Israel and that of the US ruling class appear to differ sharply with regard to Iran.  What Isreal is most concerned about is Iran making nuclear weapons; what the US is most concerned about is controlling their oil.

Israel is concerned about Iran’s have a nuclear weapon because it neutralizes Israel’s threat to nuclear bomb it.  And serves as an example for other Arab countries to develop nuclear weapons which serve the same purpose.  With nuclear weapons neutralized, the struggle now is with conventional weapons and the Palestinians ahd Hezbollah may get modern weapons to counter Israel’s.  So Israel wants to bomb Iran to threaten them to give up making nuclear weapons, or delay their production.

On the other hand, the whole US War on Terrorism was about controlling Muslim oil, and fighting Muslim socialism to privatize their economies.  That is why all the US intellignece agencies came out publically saying that Iran is not creating a bomb, which could not be done without Bushite approval. the US didn’t much care about it.  As France’s Sarcozy has said publically, the only reason that Iran’s bomb is important is that it encourages other countires to make them.

So the current “Stolen Election” strategy is a replay of putting in the Shah in 1953.  After all it worked before.  The US has funded an number of terrorist groups that are blowing up mosques, and the “Reformists” are shooting at the unarmed teen age religious police, killing eight of them so far.

The US has heated by the class struggle in Iran, the Reformists having a legitimate point in wanting social-cultural freedoms, but whose leaders want to privatize the economy in neoliberal style, led by Rafsanjani.  But you wouldn’t think that terrorism would be effective in this kind of situation.

The US may go with a Sudan type of situation, where the US is financing a rebel army based in Chad to try to get their hands on Sudan oil. Sudan let the Chinese develop it, who paid them for it, and built schools, roads, etc.  In Sudan this developed into an ethnic struggle and their are many ninorities in Iran, the Persians making up only half the population.  that is partly why the US was so aggreived that the Ajeri, the major minority group, voted mostly for Ahmadinejad (who is fluent in the language.)

However it sorts out, Obama has got the US into another expensive and bloody quagmire, as in Pakistan, this appearlng to be one of his specialties.

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By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment

Destabilization 2.0

Soros, the CIA, Mossad and the new media destabilization of Iran

By James Corbett

June 24, 2009 “The Corbett Report”—“It’s the 2009 presidential election in Iran and opposition leader Mir-Houssein Mousavi declares victory hours before the polls close, insuring that any result to the contrary will be called into question. Western media goes into overdrive, fighting with each other to see who can offer the most hyperbolic denunciation of the vote and President Ahmadenijad’s apparent victory (BBC wins by publishing bald-faced lies about the supposed popular uprising which it is later forced to retract). On June 13th, 30000 “tweets” begin to flood Twitter with live updates from Iran, most written in English and provided by a handful of newly-registered users with identical profile photos. The Jerusalem Post writes a story about the Iran Twitter phenomenon a few hours after it starts (and who says Mossad isn’t staying up to date with new media?). Now, YouTube is providing a “Breaking News” link at the top of every page linking to the latest footage of the Iranian protests (all shot in high def, no less). Welcome to Destabilization 2.0, the latest version of a program that the western powers have been running for decades in order to overthrow foreign, democratically elected governments that don’t yield to the whims of western governments and multinational corporations.

Ironically, Iran was also the birthplace of the original CIA program for destabilizing a foreign government. Think of it as Destabilization 1.0: It’s 1953 and democratically-elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh is following through on his election promises to nationalize industry for the Iranian people, including the oil industry of Iran which was then controlled by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. The CIA is sent into the country to bring an end to Mossadegh’s government. They begin a campaign of terror, staging bombings and attacks on Muslim targets in order to blame them on nationalist, secular Mossadegh. They foster and fund an anti-Mossadegh campaign amongst the radical Islamist elements in the country. Finally, they back the revolution that brings their favoured puppet, the Shah, into power. Within months, their mission had been accomplished: they had removed a democratically elected leader who threatened to build up an independent, secular Persian nation and replaced him with a repressive tyrant whose secret police would brutally suppress all opposition. The campaign was a success and the lead CIA agent wrote an after-action report describing the operation in glowing terms. The pattern was to be repeated time and time again in country after country (in Guatemala in 1954, in Afghanistan in the 1980s, in Serbia in the 1990s), but these operations leave the agency open to exposure. What was needed was a different plan, one where the western political and financial interests puppeteering the revolution would be more difficult to implicate in the overthrow.”

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22910.htm

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By Robert, June 25, 2009 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Virginia777, don’t you lose any sleep over what ITW tries to post here; its all about his love for zionism & its agendas. He would like to see you leave TD & that would be one less person on TD who posts the TRUTH about zionism, Israel’s racist policies & war crimes.

So, stick around TD & help expose the TRUTH !

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By Inherit The Wind, June 25, 2009 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

Virgin666 demands censorship of all that don’t agree with him/her..“Why should we have to suffer night after night these trolls?”  she/he whines.

Yet “Ginny” has rarely, if ever, contributed a post of any substance or value.  I might detest EH or FT’s posts or be amused by them, but at least once in a while there’s some substance there. 

“Ginny” on the other drops insults and little toads to try to make him/herself look clever, then whines like a spoiled brat when she/he is called on the carpet for this nasty shit.

Honey, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.  I’m sure Robert can point you to web sites and forum where EVERYBODY shares your mean and idiotic opinions and you’ll NEVER have to defend them.

Use the Rush Limbaugh tactic—never let anyone near you who isn’t already vetted to share EXACTLY your opinions—you know, ditto-heads.

FT: That was some backward compliment.  You are still a ridiculous arrogant ignoramus who thinks himself a prophet because he can spout dialectic bullshit with the best of them.  But, somehow, as much of an asshole as you can be, I can’t help liking you.  Not sure why, but I do.  I guess it’s just fun to read what new fantasies and idiocies you’ve come up with, especially with your clever turns of phrase.

If only you’d stop making up shit about me all would be good.

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By Sepharad, June 25, 2009 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

chrism—Thanks for pointing out Moussavi’s interest in privatization. That’s rarely a good sign, at least not in a country that is doing well enough economically, and I didn’t know that was one of Moussavi’s “reforms”. Privatization has just about wrecked Israel, which began as a very socialistic country based on the kibbutz model and—for those who could not abide that much communitarianism—moshav, where people had separate houses, and could either cook and eat at home or more communally, but still did whatever work there was to do, and the profits were divided evenly among the moshav members. The excuse for widespread privatization was that the country wasn’t generating enough income, and it quickly ruined much of the character and flavor as well as ushering in greedy capitalists, corruption, and a lower middle-class who did much of the menial and field work formerly done by the kibbutzniks and moshavniks. Of course there were upsides: more funding for education from kindergarten to universities, hospitals and medical and biotech research, agricultural advances, conservation, ecological projects, stepped-up archaeology, funds for musical and theatrical productions, etc. But the happy medium sought quickly disappeared and, I think, needs to be reestablished. Unfortunately, under the present government, we can forget about anything changing “next year in Jerusalem”, in fact for the foreseeable future.

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By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad writes: “I know nothing about MEK in Iraq”.

OOPS! I meant Iran, not Iraq. Sorry!

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By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad writes:

After one of his speeches, someone began talking to him, inveighing against Israel and Zionists. MLK cut them off: “Make no mistake: that’s anti-Semitism talking.

Well, it might be interesting to know what the person was complaining about. That occurred during MLK’s lifetime, and that’s kind of early in the history of the US’s relationship with Israel. As Norman Finkelstein points out in The Holocaust Industry, the peculiarly destructive US/Israeli alliance we see today doesn’t really even start to get underway until after the June 1967 war, about 9 months before King died. It was over the course of the 1970s and 1980s that the new neoconservative matured, along with the cancerous lobbying and media apparatus which guarantees that no matter which party is in power in America, we have a government yoked like an ox to Israel.

However, even before King died, there was already much to inveigh against concerning the US relationship with Israel. For example, already in 1967 the USS Liberty matter showed that Israel could do vicious and deliberate harm to Americans with total impunity. Maybe the guy somehow knew about that, despite the media blackout. And maybe MLK thought it sounded like crazy talk — because the fact is, what the US lets Israel get away with does sound crazy, if you’re not well informed on the subject.

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By Sepharad, June 25, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Ed Harges, overall a good comment, though I didn’t know “surgical” nuclear weapons were on the table. Would these be the same as “tactical” nuclear weapons we used to hear about in the Vietnam days?
It seems ridiculous to even imagine there could be any desirable use for any nuclear weapon, or the implication that a “surgical” or “tactical” weapon is somehow safer. Even a mere “dirty bomb” would be a disaster. Almost as bad as that anti-personnel bomb, or whatever they call it (I forget) that on detonation kills people but leaves infrastructure intact. The intention of the minds who drove development of such a weapon is more frightening than the bomb itself: an article asking and answering “What were you THINKING??” would be interesting.

I know nothing about MEK in Iraq, and I don’t know if by Sunni Islamists you mean the “Awakening” group or the many Iraqi army members who, newly jobless, joined the Sunni insurgency or Al Quaeda-in-Iraq (the last being the only Sunnis I’d describe as Islamist). And I don’t know that Israel has been helping with those groups. (What would be the point? Ilan Ramon and his pilots destroyed Iraq’s newly built reactor.)

Whether the Israelis could get Knesset to approve striking at Iran I don’t know. Though I’m not a pacifist, if it were up to me I’d vote against such a strike because the nuclear facilities are all over the place, some too deep to hit, many built under populous areas. In any case, any strike by anyone at Iran, no matter who is the President, would unite the country forever against whatever country did it. This would be foolish, because Iran has the potential to be a highly-developed country. The women, though limited in many regards, are allowed to hold a wide range of jobs. Their educational system is good. A large segment of their population seems interested in being a part of the world community intellectually as well as economically, and it’s very hard to sustain hard-line Islamist law and causes where people have opportunities to live their lives and see a promising future for their children. Such a country would be a huge step toward peace in the Middle East.   

Which Seymour Hersch book or article did you reference? I try to keep up with him but he writes prolifically.

I know that people in the Israeli government have made public statements about attacking Iran to prevent their getting a nuke (as Iran’s delivery system is good enough to hit Israel, even Italy, Spain and France with their latest generation of rockets), but I think that’s a bad idea. I understand why Israelis are afraid, but for all the Islamist extremist talk about paradise, it’s usually for the benefit at impressionable foot soldiers, not for the guys who plan and order the suicidal missions, and I think that the clerics who dominate Iran are determined survivors. The mullahs know that if they nuke Tel Aviv, Tehran would be next rather quickly. (I suppose they could conveniently be out of the country, but what then would be left for them of their Islamic theocracy?)

A velvet revolution could be a very good thing, but it doesn’t work if it doesn’t come from the people who live there. If the U.S. and Israel have done anything to empower the leaders, beyond encouraging words—they should stop right now and let the Iranian people take it from here and not meddle further. Velvet revolutions only work if they are genuine, and once they take charge of the government it would be a very bad idea to try and “control” the shape of their government or their foreign policy perspectives. The U.S., Europe and Israel should offer diplomatic exchanges and embassies and whatever assistance a new Iran needs—if they ask for it (or to put it another way, respond as one civilized country to another).

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By Xntrk, June 25, 2009 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

Night Guard
Thanks for the correction. I have it bookmarked on my toolbar, and never type it in. I would have pasted it, but I used that for the book info. Can anyone tell I flunked typing? As for writing in code, I tried that on a typing test once and got -11 words a minute. Lucky for me, they said I couldn’t type. The other women in engineering had to do clerical work, Not me!

I notice that the media is now looking elsewhere as the Iranian Government closes down the demonstrations. With our 20 second attention span, it is no wonder we have trouble protesting. Even at the WTO Battle Of Seattle, the demonstrators got bored towards the end and attacked Starbucks, looking for a cup of coffee. Of course, attacking Starbucks, Walmart and McDonald’s makes more sense then attacking Iran.

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By pgg804, June 25, 2009 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Russia’s “Pravda” reports on the USA’s (and other Zionist supporting regimes) instigation of the riots in Iran.  It tally’s up the physical damage and gives a brief history lesson on the last time the US overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran.  In 1953 the USA and Britain overthrew the Iranian government because the government nationalized BP (the only oil company in the country) in Iran and they wanted to install the Shah, a leader friendly to the US and later known torturing his own people.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107819-0/

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By chrism, June 25, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This Fisk’s piece is disturbing. We do not know what is exactly going on in Iran. We are not getting objective coverage of the event. We are not even getting reporting. What we are getting is “opinionating’ based on unverifiable source of information such as Twitters and You Tube. 

That being said there are three things we do know:

1.  The alleged election fraud is still alleged. No credible evidence of fraud has been produced by anyone including Mousavi’s camp. 
2.  The mouasvi’s camp calls for “social/cultural freedom” - relaxed dress code and mixed recreation, among other things.
3.  Mousavi calls for privatization of the public sector –oil, natural gas, other natural resources, transportation, water, etc., and sever reduction of public assistance, social safety net and other public programs which are geared to help the poor. This was in his campaign speech.

What inspires the West is not so much the call for the social/cultural freedom or the veracity of the pole result but the call for privatization. We call it a modernization of economy.  This was also one of the main objectives of the Iraq invasion - installation of unfettered capitalism, particularly the opening of the Iraq’s vast oil reserves to the Western oil companies.

As Folktruther points out in one of his comments, it seems that Roger Cohen of NYT let the cat out of the bag. Whether CIA or other covert operation groups were involved form the beginning or not, purpose of the West’s backing of this “movement” is regime change – installation of a regime which is subservient to the West’s interest be it geopolitical or financial. In some sense we are trying to do the same thing we did in 1953 when we toppled Mohanned Mossadegh because he nationalized Iran’s oil reserve: We are trying to topple a government with a nationalized oil/natural gas in order to open them up to the Western oil companies. I guess Cairo speech was just a speech as so many of Obama speeches are.

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By tropicgirl, June 25, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Going back to the article, I find the title about “symbols not enough to win a war” very interesting.

We have a serious problem with the way symbols are manipulated by the CIA goons and the press that serves them. But a more serious outgrowth of this interference and manipulation are the false flag incidents that get us into wars and start wars elsewhere, perped by the same gooons.

We KNOW they have happened. From the assassination of JFK to the Gulf of Tonkin of Viet Nam war days, we have undeniable proof, if one is willing to look. The problem is that the press is unable to recognize them as they are happening, or shortly afterward, in time to prevent unnecessary loss of life usually on all sides, including American soldiers.

I also think that the failure of the press to question the events of 911 has doomed us to war in the Middle East that is immoral, incorrect, illegal and sadistic. It has also changed our daily lives into an experience of being tasered, strip searched, invaded, spied upon, blacklisted and worse… But we will NEVER get out of that treadmill until we challenge the 911 events. JUST QUESTION IT. You don’t have to reach all the answers. But most are scared to question it, and because of 911, which could have been fake, we are stuck in a killing cycle that will benefit no one. So in a way, you can blame the so-called liberal press for the perpetual “long” war, apparently in the entire middle east now, and its horrific loss of life and health and the consequences of that.

Here is a great source of ALL the known false flag incidents perpetrated by the goons at the DOD and CIA and their worldwide buddies:

http://911review.com/articles/anon/false_flag_perations.html

And I believe we will continue to torture for the same reason. It still goes un-investigated as does 911.

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By Sepharad, June 25, 2009 at 11:22 am Link to this comment

Virginia777, re your June 25 “What if Martin Luther King ... made such an emphasis on the hate-speech writers of the day’s “civil rights” ... instead of saying they were dead wrong?”

Martin Luther King was brave enough to always say what he thought was dead wrong, even to his supporters. After one of his speeches, someone began talking to him, inveighing against Israel and Zionists. MLK cut them off: “Make no mistake: that’s anti-Semitism talking.” (I think those were his exact words, definitely very close to them. His voice sounded angry.) I don’t think all critics of Zionists and Israel are anti-Semitic, but many are: it’s pretty easy to distinguish. MLK was of course very practiced at distinguishing racist whites from the other kind of go-along-get-along types who just wanted to fit in with their friends and were merely troublesome, not dangerous.

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By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

re:By Sepharad, June 25 at 12:58 pm:

Steve Weissman has provided evidence on the Truthout website (the piece has since been removed from TO but is available elsewhere) that American pro-Israel interests are indeed behind the attempted ‘velvet’ revolution in Iran. For example, US billionaire Zionist activist Peter Ackerman (who runs a neocon outfit advocating US intervention “just about anywhere”, as Weissman puts it) has been conducting and funding training of Iranian dissidents in protest techniques in Dubai. This does not mean that the dissatisfaction expressed by the protesters is fake. There is no way to fake such widespread discontent.

On the surface, it would seem that trying to foment velvet (ie non-violent) revolutions against bad regimes is a good thing. But Weissman points out that there are a number of problems with this.

For one thing, the US is highly selective in which rebellions it encourages. It does not encourage, praise, fund, or enable (nor does its corporate media lavish any airtime reporting) attempts at nonviolent rebellion in Egypt or Palestine (or the vicious response by local authorities, as Robert graphically reminds us in ‘By Robert, June 25 at 10:55 am’). And of course, the connection of the Iranian protesters to their trainers is disastrous for the credibility of this movement to the extent that it is genuine. One has to wonder whether these American Zionist helpers really want the protesters to succeed.

For another thing, the US and Israel have supported and continue to support at least two terrorist organizations in Iraq (the quasi-Marxist MEK and a Sunni Islamist group), further calling into question whether these US helpers really want this peaceful rebellion to succeed, installing Mousavi as President. After all, Mousavi was hand-picked by the Mullahs, is pledged to continue uranium enrichment and Islamic rule, and was a lackey of Khomeini in the 80s who led purges of Jews and leftists from Iran’s universities. Maybe the American benefactors were counting on a violent crackdown, failure of the movement, much maudlin weeping on US TV news, and the return to rule of Ahmadinejad, more demonized than ever: (“See! They’re even more evil than we thought! We can’t possibly talk to them! Sooooo….bombs away!”)

And the US and Israel continue, even as they wax enthusiastic about these lovely young protesters, insisting that bombing Iran is “on the table.” Everyone knows such a bombing, if carried out, is going to be ultra-massive - thousands of sites in Iran, certainly killing many people. Israel wants obliterated not only all of the hundreds of sites even remotely suspected of being part of nuclear development, but also the destruction of Iran’s conventional missile capability, air defenses, etc. In fact, we have seen from Israel’s recent orgies in Lebanon and Gaza that they currently favor the obliteration of their enemies’ civilian infrastructures, like roads, bridges, water treatment plants, police stations, hospitals, UN shelters, etc.

Philip Giraldi and Seymour Hersh have reported that the US government is leaving open the option of using nuclear weapons — “surgical” ones, we will be told. There will be “pinpoint” strikes using nuclear bunkerbusters, only on purely military targets, and of course “we know where they are”, as Rumsfeld promised, we always know exactly where everything is. Our fantastically destructive weapons strike like scalpels only at evil. Don’t worry; none of these attractive young dissidents will be harmed! They will thank us!

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

if the Free Speech advocates want to tolerate Trolls (who are intentionally thwarting the truth),

they have to be willing to fight fire with fire.

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt:

“The best thing to do if you don’t like what they are saying is to ignore them and move on, or correct them and move on. Either works while free speech is satisfied”

again, I use the MLK analogy: would MLK have been as tolerant of the hate-speech writers of his day (Trolls) when they were, as the John Birch society writers were, calling African-Americans “Gorillas”??

“Don’t get into vituperative arguments that decay the discussion to unseemly name calling. Then they have succeeded”

I summon MLK again: if someone is calling an African-American a “gorilla” (or an equal slur to sanity in our country, its people, the poor, whatever), you bet I will answer them as they deserve.

Its called “honesty”, and no, it does not mean that they have succeeded,

it means they have not won.

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By KDelphi, June 25, 2009 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Night Guant—do you really think that Israel/US would only attack Iran’s “nuclear research sites” and stop there?

I am really asking. Because, it seems to me that Bush Sr told the Kurds to “rise up against Saddam Hussein” in Iraq, (after dessimating the countryside on false evidence from Kuwait)and, then, we decided to pull out. That is when the supposed use of chemical weapons occurred. We know about the chemical weapons, I guess, because we still had reciepts from when we sold them to Hussein (who we put in power) to use on Iran, and, then sold Iran weapons, to use the money to fight on the wrong side in Nicaragua…on and on…

I submit, that, were there an uprising in the uS (say, Af Ams?), that chemicals, bats and guns would be used on them also. That’s right, they have been.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 25, 2009 at 9:59 am Link to this comment

“Tolls” (a Scandinavian creature that are portrayed as ugly and oafish) aren’t always angry with violent rhetoric on the Internet. All they have to do is to side track the discussion and introduce odd elements to do so. Though not all of them who do this are trolls, some just have a different point of view. The best thing to do if you don’t like what they are saying is to ignore them and move on, or correct them and move on. Either works while free speech is satisfied. Don’t get into vituperative arguments that decay the discussion to unseemly name calling. Then they have succeeded.

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By KDelphi, June 25, 2009 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

Remember how you felt about kids that turned people in at school? (unless you were one of those that did the “turning in”)

Well it still applies.

Its still “I’m gonna tell”. Grow up, sheeples.

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By Sepharad, June 25, 2009 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

The most enlightening material on this thread so far is jackpine’s June 23, 7:15pm link to a Foreign Policy Journal article that details previous U.S. attempts to change the foreign policies (and, though specifically unaddressed, perhaps the current regime—though our history with that, in helping to topple Mossadegh so the Shah could take over and hence enabling the mullahs, suggests that regime-change exercises in Persia are a bad idea). So whether or not Obama is complicit may hardly matter, as a “velvet revolution” is something we have been trying to encourage for a long time.

As various protesting Iranians in Iran have suggested on this website and on the NYTimes oped pages (and probably elsewhere), Americans whether left or right haven’t any idea of what is actually happening there, other than the scraps of video material showing police beating and militia firing at demonstrators. We don’t even know who won the election: official info released appears to support an Ahmadinejad win yet Moussavi is still encouraging his followers to demonstrate and they, including women, are doing so if not in the huge numbers before the crackdown. So one question is why Moussavi, who previously told supporters, after the killing of at least 10, to do it at night on the rooftops, is now asking them to continue demonstrating.

Another question might be whether it’s right for our government to encourage velvet revolutions. It’s better than bringing down democratic governments (e.g. Allende in Chile), but it’s still at best covert lobbying and at worse direct interference, and real people die in this process we’ve encouraged. If we’re lucky, 1)our government didn’t promise to rescue the people who have gone out on a limb and 2) didn’t push them out on this particular limb only to leave them hanging.

On the other hand, if some segments of Iranian society want more modernization and less control, and they care enough to protest a stolen (if it is) election, the least we could do is to acknowledge their courage and not leap to join Russia’s early recognition of the Ahmadinejad government. Plenty of time to kiss up to Ahmadinejad if we need to—and we do need to start talking with Iran. (One reason the Chinese do so much better than we do in our Mideast oil dealings is that they make the effort to learn Arabic, Farsi, whatever’s relevant to getting a favorable economic position, though they probably don’t discuss their treatment of their Uighar/Turkic Moslem minority.) Meanwhile we should be busily mending fences in our own hemisphere—Venazuela and Cuba, for starters.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 25, 2009 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

To put it simply the majority of corporate news works with those in gov’t to promote the idea that Iran is a danger to the world and they are working on nuclear weapons to attack Israel. Even though it is Israel who threatens all of them with their 200+ nuclear warheads which are almost never mentioned.

The UN IAEA has shown that there is no evidence of nuclear weapons work in Iran since 2003 as the Supreme Ayatolla Kamenie has said when he ruled against it.

Iran knows that there is still a risk of their nuclear research labs being attack by Israel and even the USA so they have them far and wide with many redundancies. Like over 3,000 centrifuges. Even so if Israel attacks their nuclear reactor site it will be war unlike with Iraq which was impotent in 1981 when Israel bombed their reactor. Fortunately it wasn’t active and had no nuclear material in it at that time.

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 9:46 am Link to this comment

Folktruther,

I agree that combating their lies is very good work also,

but what if Martin Luther King, in the Civil Rights days, made such an emphasis on the hate-speech writers of the day’s “civil rights” (as liberals do today for trolls),

instead of saying they were dead wrong? instead of saying they were taking away the rights of other people?

(like violent trolls do)

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Ed Harges's avatar

By Ed Harges, June 25, 2009 at 9:46 am Link to this comment

Re:By Night-Gaunt, June 25 at 12:13 pm:

I don’t know that it’s phony. But given recent history, the burden of proof — and it’s a heavy one — lies with those purveying the story.

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By Virginia777, June 25, 2009 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

to Ardee:

you have, via you copious bitter anger, revealed yourself to be a Troll (trolls are Bullies, and bullies hate to be bullied).

I found something recent you wrote that is questionable, not to mention the “Fascist” comment,

you wrote about Iran’s supposed nuclear weapon build-up:

“I wish someone would settle the argument as to what Iran is building there. I hear from that govt about a nuclear generating plant that would produce electricity thus husbanding the oil production for export. Russian technicians are involved in the construction and are supplying the materials, including the radioactive stuff. “

hmmm, now where are YOU getting your “information” from?

and why is this subject so interesting to you?

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By Folktruther, June 25, 2009 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

Virgina, if trolls are media, than one responds by combatting their lies, not by excluding them or shutting them down.  If we did, than any one of us could be excluded by calling us a troll.

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