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The Lone Wolves Among Us

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Posted on Jun 11, 2009

By Eugene Robinson

    We are blessed to live at a time when violent acts of hatred based on race, ethnicity or religion have become rare, at least in this country. As the act of terrorism committed Wednesday at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum should remind us, though, rare doesn’t mean nonexistent.

    James W. von Brunn, the 88-year-old white supremacist who allegedly took a rifle into the museum and killed security guard Stephen Johns, is more than a bitter, demented old man. He is a known figure in the domestic hate industry, a venom-spewing polemicist whose Web site offered readers the chance to download the opening chapters of his racist, anti-Semitic tome for free—and to buy the rest of the book for the bargain price of 10 bucks.

    Apparently, there weren’t enough takers. The Washington Post reported Thursday that acquaintances say von Brunn had become virtually destitute and was complaining that “someone in Washington” had cut his Social Security benefits as punishment for his political views. His recent e-mail blasts were apocalyptic. “It’s time to kill all the Jews,” said one.

    It’s easy to surmise that von Brunn, a rabid Holocaust denier, could have chosen the Holocaust museum as a target because he thought it would offer the opportunity to kill Jews. His writings show that he also hates black people with great passion, however, so perhaps he took some measure of sick satisfaction in allegedly gunning down the 39-year-old Johns, an African-American.

    In April, a prescient Department of Homeland Security memo predicted that the election of the first African-American president and the advent of economic hard times could worsen the threat from “right-wing extremist groups.” In particular, the memo warned of an increase in anti-Semitic activity by extremists who buy into the whole Jewish-banker-secret-cabal paranoid fantasy—and would blame “the Jews” for engineering the global financial crisis, just as they blame “the Jews” for everything.

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    For days, some conservative commentators tried mightily to paint the memo as an underhanded attempt by the Obama administration to smear its honorable critics by equating “right wing” with “terrorism.” It made no difference to these loudmouths that the number of hate groups around the country has increased by more than 50 percent since 2000, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. It didn’t matter that the memo was backed up by solid intelligence and analysis. For these infotainers, the point isn’t to illuminate a subject by putting it in the light but to blast it with heat.

    And it wasn’t just the Sean Hannitys, Rush Limbaughs and Glenn Becks of the world who pretended to be outraged. Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele accused the administration of trying “to segment out Americans who dissent from this administration, to segment out conservatives in this country who have a different philosophy or view from this administration, and labeling them as terrorists.” Steele seems to have decided that telling the truth isn’t nearly as important as the high-temperature exercise known as “firing up the base.”

    The thing is, though, that words have consequences.

    There’s profit for the pundits, and perhaps personal advantage for some politicians, in calling President Obama a “socialist” and calling Judge Sonia Sotomayor a “racist Latina” and claiming that Democrats want to “take away your guns”—in creating and nurturing a sense of grievance among those inclined to be aggrieved. But what about those who might not understand that it’s all just political theater? 

    The Homeland Security memo made the assessment that “lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent right-wing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States.” It recalled an April 4 incident in which three Pittsburgh-area police officers were killed, and said “the alleged gunman’s reaction reportedly was influenced by his racist ideology and belief in anti-government conspiracy theories related to gun confiscations, citizen detention camps, and a Jewish-controlled ‘one world government.’ ”

    It’s clear that James von Brunn was a firm believer in this whole insane scenario long before the financial meltdown or Obama’s election. Maybe it was his personal financial situation that allegedly pushed him over the edge. Maybe he reached a point of no return years ago, when he made a bizarre attempt to take members of the Federal Reserve Board hostage.

    What we don’t know is whether all the blast-furnace rhetoric coming from the right is giving validation and encouragement to some confused, angry man or woman with a rifle or a truck full of fertilizer—the next “lone wolf,” preparing to howl.
   
    Eugene Robinson’s e-mail address is eugenerobinson(at)washpost.com.
   
    © 2009, Washington Post Writers Group


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By Paracelsus, June 23, 2009 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

A “Lone Wolf” in Australia

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25670781-2702,00.html

MP delivered death threat over fluoride in water debate

  * Font Size: Decrease Increase
  * Print Page: Print

Rick Wallace, Victorian political reporter | June 22, 2009
Article from:  The Australian

A VICTORIAN Cabinet Minister had a death threat delivered to her home over the weekend amid a debate over adding fluoride to Geelong’s water supply.
A threatening note scrawled on an water bottle was left on Geelong-based Community Services Minister Lisa Neville’s verandah on Saturday night.

The note read: “Thanks for the poison bitch - ready to kill you slowly.”

Ms Neville spoke out today to condemn the threat, which she blames on the anti-fluoride lobby.

“What we have seen is some extremists who have threatened the water supply of Geelong as well as made threats against Barwon Water staff. Unfortunately on the weekend they crossed another line and threatened myself personally by delivering a message on the front verandah of my property.

“That is a signifncant line to cross and I am particularly concerned that my son, like every other child in the communtiy, is safe in their own home.

“Extremist behavour like this is completely unnacceptable and we would expect that Victoria Police will use the full force of the law against these people.’‘

Ms Neville did not know if the substance in the bottle was water or not but said police have seized it as evidence.

Over the next few weeks Barwon Water is scheduled to begin adding fluoride to the city’s water supply to improve dental health following an 18 month debate.

********************

This story was so misinterpreted. Apparently the perpetrator offered to “kill” the MP with a bottle of fluoridated water. BTW, I had written and spoken to numerous state legislators about stopping the fluoridation of water, and I cannot even get the courtesy of a reply.

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By KDelphi, June 22, 2009 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

A lack of empathy doesnt necessarily make one a “sexual sadist” (ala Abu Gharib)...there are many other “disorders” that manifest as a lack of empathy—like childhood! Or, when one is first “
in love” to the exclusison of all others..there is an evolutionary survival mechanism to it, but, still..one needs to grow past it

But, in a “grown-up”, it tends to manifest as a tendency to only see things from one’s own, or one’s race or socio-economic groups’s point of view.

We all have a tendency to do it, but, if we are to mature, (as a human species, I mean)we must develop beynd narcisstic tendencies.

Empathy usually develops from experience with other “groups”. If one is exposed to other groups and still doesnt develop any empathy, then, that indicates a problem.

General empathy doesnt even have to be just for the human race—-most humans have the capacity to feel real empathy for all higher order animals. (and most higher order mammals can feel empathy—like dolphins, dogs or chimps) It is part of being part of a social order, if that makes sense.Especially mammals.

Thats what my experience is.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 22, 2009 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Both Anarcissi & KDelphi have hit upon crucial elements of the human psyche and how good things can be subverted by bad people into bad things. The “Devil’s Wager” scenario. No matter what you wish for it can be turned into an negative against you.

Such things as intelligence, empathy and sincerity are not of themselves good things. Though one may successfully argue over empathy in this case. For a sadist doesn’t have it. That person only gets sexually aroused by hurting others so it is really a form of sublimation from one trigger to another to get the same response. Arsonists do it for that reason as well.

Brunn had empathy for his “race” & religion, he just had contempt and hatred for all those he found as the “reason” for his group not on top of the world to his satisfaction. Hating one group usually means loving the group you are with.

One of the serious faults in the Human Genome that still occurs with disturbing frequency.

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By Anarcissie, June 22, 2009 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

It seems to me that a person could be highly empathetic and yet quite dangerous to others.  After all, the sadist does not get any pleasure out of his practices unless he knows that his victim is suffering, that is, he has some capacity for empathy.

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By ardee, June 21, 2009 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Goebbels, not my friend

“You tend to immediately attack all don’t see things your way. As you yourself have said many times - these “others” are just stupid.” Interesting”

While I swore not to rise to the bait, I will make an exception for this one, Prove your point or admit you are a propagandist and unprincipled liar. Post a cut and paste to any of my posts that call others stupid, as you say there are many it should be easy.

I believe you many things, most of them objectionable, I also believe you make some pretty stupid claims and distort the comments of others in stupid ways, all the while feigning honesty and outrage that your crap is not swallowed whole. The real tragedy is that you are not stupid, you are something quite else, far, far worse than stupid.

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By KDelphi, June 21, 2009 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

“Disturbed” people are very often “intelligent”.

I dont always view intelligence as a compliment and I refuse to diagnose people online.

Some of the worst genocidse the world has ever known have been designed and implemented by intelligent peole.

What these people lack, is a familiar human quality—empathy. If you could look into their eyes, you would see, mostly, nothing. In general, it doesnt bother them very much, either. The only thing that seems to “bother” them is anyone getting in the way of them getting something that they want, and, continuing to tilt the playing field their way.

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By Leefeller, June 20, 2009 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Self righteous people can be alone, depends on their self righteousness.

Calling this misfit a lone wolf is not fair to wolves, I suspect the wind at his back was not from being alone or just one person. His addled brain could have worked itself to a frenzy from something said by the Likes of Limbaugh or Oreally, as they regularly stoke the fires of hate.

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By pgg804, June 20, 2009 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

“Israeli Minister in Arab slur row”

The Israeli minister reveals himself to be a racist and a bigot.  I wonder what other similarities he shares with Inherit The Wind?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8104723.stm

Israelis to Africans: “Niggers don’t expel Jews”

More racism, more similarities with Inherit The Wind.  These feelings may partly explain why the US has a holocaust museum, but no memorial for Indians or Blacks.  Placing the value of some lives above those of others.
 
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3633163,00.html

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By pgg804, June 20, 2009 at 5:40 am Link to this comment

“US Senate is sorry about Slavery”

Some of the comments are more interesting than the article.

http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20090618_us_senators_are_sorry_about_slavery/

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By AFriend, June 19, 2009 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

ardee, June 18 at 5:43 pm #

—-

And still you sow divisiveness and hatred, resort to name calling and pettiness and twist the context of a conversation to meet your special needs.

You tend to immediately attack all don’t see things your way. As you yourself have said many times - these “others” are just stupid.” Interesting.

You should research the definition of bigotry.

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By ardee, June 18, 2009 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, June 18 at 7:39 am #

As a veteran of political forums and discussion groups I do not think the examples you cite are either uncommon or unexpected. I am become increasingly suspicious, frankly, of the purpose of these forums altogether.

While I claim no special ability to follow my own advice I think the best course of action is to continue to post fact based and linked responses in a dispassionate and unemotional fashion…if only because it drives the crazies even crazier.

When one finds, in the course of a debate, a penchant for ignoring or continuing to distort an obvious conclusion or opinion, then one knows for certain further response is a waste of time.

Sometimes AFriend is not really a friend.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 18, 2009 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

pgg804, June 18 at 1:05 pm #

The Russian Defense Ministry has posted an article by a Russian historian that says Poland was responsible for WW II.

The paper, titled “Fictions and Falsifications in Evaluating the USSR’s Role On the Eve of World War II,” recounts how in the run-up to Germany’s invasion of Poland on Sept. 1, 1939, Hitler demanded that Poland turn over control of the city of Danzig as well as a land corridor between Germany and the territory now known as Kaliningrad.

“Everyone who has studied the history of World War II without bias knows that the war began because of Poland’s refusal to satisfy Germany’s claims,” Sergei Kolvalyov writes.

Kovalyov called the demands “quite reasonable.”

He observed: “The overwhelming majority of residents of Danzig, cut off from Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, were Germans who sincerely wished for reunification with their historical homeland.”

Note:  Danzig’s population was 90% German at that time.  Danzig is where Gunter Grass, the 1999 Nobel Prize for Literature recipient grew up.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/20 09/06/05/russian_military_historian_blames_poland_for_wwii/
***************************************************

Yeah, that’s certainly sufficient justification for setting the world on fire and getting 50-60 million people killed—because YOU want a city back you legally agreed to cede when you lost the last war.

PGG, do you have ANY sense of morality at all?  Or are you simply nothing but a Nazi partisan and apologist?

The world would have been better off if France and Britain had immediately attacked with Hitler illegally re-militarized the Rhineland in 1936.  They would have crushed the German Army before it was restored 3 years later, and Hitler would have been thrown from power and nazism rejected.  That was the price of the cowardice and stupidity of the British and French leaders.

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By pgg804, June 18, 2009 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

The Russian Defense Ministry has posted an article by a Russian historian that says Poland was responsible for WW II.

The paper, titled “Fictions and Falsifications in Evaluating the USSR’s Role On the Eve of World War II,” recounts how in the run-up to Germany’s invasion of Poland on Sept. 1, 1939, Hitler demanded that Poland turn over control of the city of Danzig as well as a land corridor between Germany and the territory now known as Kaliningrad.

“Everyone who has studied the history of World War II without bias knows that the war began because of Poland’s refusal to satisfy Germany’s claims,” Sergei Kolvalyov writes.

Kovalyov called the demands “quite reasonable.”

He observed: “The overwhelming majority of residents of Danzig, cut off from Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, were Germans who sincerely wished for reunification with their historical homeland.”

Note:  Danzig’s population was 90% German at that time.  Danzig is where Gunter Grass, the 1999 Nobel Prize for Literature recipient grew up.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2009/06/05/russian_military_historian_blames_poland_for_wwii/

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By Inherit The Wind, June 18, 2009 at 4:39 am Link to this comment

ardee, June 17 at 5:25 pm #

KDelphi, June 16 at 4:17 pm #


AFriend is “intelligent” in an odd sort of way,
..........

I find this poster to be rather disturbed frankly. I further believe that she comes here only to poke fun or needle, though the methodology echoes my opinion of disturbed.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions obviously, but when one finds one like this, who consistently distorts the words of another in order to make a point long, long since lost, well, Im sticking with disturbed. As I am with ignoring any efforts from her in future, what is the point of responding to one like this?
******************************************

Welcome to the club, RD!  Guys like FT and EH and Robert have been misrepresenting and misquoting me for the longest time. FT REGULARLY attributes outrageous views and opinions to me that are 180 degrees opposite of what I hold and what I express.

See, they “know” what you are “really” thinking and therefore attribute to you that “reality” as fact, when, in fact, it’s fantasy and flat-out lies, deliberate lies to advance an agenda.

Kinda of like the Rush/Sean/Bill/Ann/Newt Axis of Evil.  Same paradigm.  Make up some bullshit about someone and keep repeating it and hammering it until it is accepted as the Truth.  Goebbels called it “The Big Lie”.

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By Anarcissie, June 17, 2009 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

AFriend:
’... If Justice Alito had stated that his race or heritage -Caucasian Italian- would serve him to make “better” decisions I would be arguing exactly the same. ...’

I believe that if Justice Alioto suffered discrimination then he would have a better understanding of it, and that would, if he were wise, to use Judge Sotomayor’s word, serve to help him make better decisions, especially about discrimination cases.  Her statement seems like basic common sense.  The contrary requires us to believe that life experience is of no use to a judge.  I think that would be a difficult argument to carry very far, although you’re welcome to try.

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By ardee, June 17, 2009 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, June 16 at 4:17 pm #


AFriend is “intelligent” in an odd sort of way,
..........

I find this poster to be rather disturbed frankly. I further believe that she comes here only to poke fun or needle, though the methodology echoes my opinion of disturbed.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions obviously, but when one finds one like this, who consistently distorts the words of another in order to make a point long, long since lost, well, Im sticking with disturbed. As I am with ignoring any efforts from her in future, what is the point of responding to one like this?

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By Night-Gaunt, June 17, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Brunn is one of the noisy kind of extremist, colorful and obnoxious. Limbaugh is in the transitory area between the colorful and the quite like Alito & Rhenquist who are just as deadly but they do it with position papers and court rulings to get the job done.

I am still looking for those Leftists and such who are terrorists. The closest are the Earth Liberation Front but they only attack devices and property. But to the Libertarian minded that is the same as attacking their persons.

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By KDelphi, June 16, 2009 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

“I meant what I wrote previously. You’re clearly not interested in an open dialog. Your interests seem more in divisiveness and arguing for the sake of argument. That is, at best, uninteresting to me.”

People that find others ‘uninteresting” generally do not reply at all..it’s like “dont! stop!”

AFriend is “intelligent” in an odd sort of way, but that’s about all he/she is. And intelligence is not everything. In fact, considering that the last few presidents we’ve had (yes, Bush, too, in his demonic way) were all very intelligent proves that it is not always a recipe for success, especially not among social animals.

I think that pure, basal ganglia, as well as genetically adept bodies , works pretty well for reptiles and laissez-fare Libertarians…but not for mammals meant to live in groups.

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By AFriend, June 16, 2009 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

ardee,

My Question: “What does Alito’s pride in his heritage have to do with a white male, or Hispanic female, jurist saying he or she could better adjudicate (reach a better conclusion) than some other race of human?”

—-


In your last reply you now admit how you assume Alito meant to say he could “better” adjudicate due to his heritage. What Justice Alito actually said, in which I agree, was simply stating the obvious. Alito said that one’s background will, obviously, effect one’s outlook and decisions.

1. Now you seem to understand that Alito did not state, as Sotomyer stated, that his race or heritage would lead him to make “better” decisions.

2. If Justice Alito had stated that his race or heritage -Caucasian Italian- would serve him to make “better” decisions I would be arguing exactly the same. My feelings are you would too.

—-

You ask me not to speak directly to you. Well, it should be clear to you by now how that would be fine with me. So my last question is this: Why, ardee, why did you even involve yourself in what I had commented?

I meant what I wrote previously. You’re clearly not interested in an open dialog. Your interests seem more in divisiveness and arguing for the sake of argument. That is, at best, uninteresting to me.

Note: It took you three attempts at reading my posts to begin to recognize that you were not actually comprehending the question I posed.

Good for you for keeping at it and finally getting it right.

—-

Since you’ll never again respond to my posts I’ll bid you good luck in all things.

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By pgg804, June 15, 2009 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Like some other countries, Germany is a country of many dialects which could make it difficult for one German to understand another German.  Bavarians, Prussians, Swabians and Austrians all speak differently.  Hochdeutsch or High German is what enables the people speaking all the different dialects to communicate. 

About seventy percent of Switzerland speaks Swiss German.  As a Swiss colleague explained to me,  Germans don’t understand Swiss German, but the the Swiss know how to speak Hochdeutsch, thus Swiss Germans and Germans can communicate.  As the article says below “Alsatian is not easily intelligible to speakers of standard German…many speakers write in standard German”.  Thus, Alsatian speakers can communicate with Germans.  An Alsatian told me as much a few years ago saying German is still widely spoken in Alsace.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/alsatian.htm

Alsatian (Elsässisch)
Alsatian is a German Alemannic dialect spoken in Alsace, a region in eastern France which has passed between French and German control many times during its history. As a result, Alsatian has been influenced a great deal by the French language.

About 96,000 people speak Alsatian, which is 60% of the inhabitants of Alsace. The majority of speakers are adults and only about 36% of primary school pupils can speak the dialect. There is limited usage Alsatian in the media: one radio station, Radio France Alsace, broadcasts in Alsatian and other radio and TV stations broadcast some programs in the dialect.

Alsatian is not easily intelligible to speakers of standard German, but is closely related to other Alemannic dialects, such as Swiss German and Swabian. It is often confused with the Frankish language, a more distantly related German West Franconian dialect. Both languages are called alsacien in French.

Many speakers write in standard German, although street names, which were formerly only in French, may use local spellings.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2009 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment

Never heard of Alsatians before my neighbor got his dog which is called an Alsatian mountain dog, it seems to specialize in collecting snails and placing them in peoples beer glasses?

Now I know about the Alsatians and where their dogs come from.
*************************

Well, the dogs are French and they are not snails, they are escargot.

The dogs called Alsatians or Alsatian Shepherds are more commonly known as German Shepherds.  We have a Belgian Shepherd, instead, which are infinitely more interesting and, (consequently) infinitely more annoying.

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By Leefeller, June 15, 2009 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for the history lessons, unlike George Bush, I was not a History Major and only cut classes on recruiting day.  My college must have been liberal, because they had every kind of recruting table you could think of, usually set up by sections.  First and foremost, I always remember the KKK, American Nazi and skin heads section,  because they seeemd to always be yelling and screaming.  The regular military tables were usually empty except for a few jocks and band members. Always noticed how the corporate section of tables seemed to attract the slick looking kids, the ones who lent the rest of us money with interest. For some reason I preferred the Victoria Secret table.

Never heard of Alsatians before my neighbor got his dog which is called an Alsatian mountain dog, it seems to specialize in collecting snails and placing them in peoples beer glasses?

Now I know about the Alsatians and where their dogs come from.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2009 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

PGG,

I have NO idea where you got the idea I hate Germans and Germany. I don’t.  However, I DO hate Nazis with all my being, and I make no apologies for that.

And I have no patience or truck with nazi-sympathizers, holocaust-deniers, or Hitler rehabilitators.

You are “liberal”? Don’t make me laugh! You make disparaging remarks about Alsatians as the same time you insist they are German. You are right about one thing: When they were carved out of France and made part of Germany they sure as HELL did not have a vote or say in the matter.

But notice: they didn’t object to being part of France again after both WWI and WWII.

There’s a line in “The Deer Hunter” when the doctor asks Christopher Guest’s character about his very-Russian name:
“What kind of name is that?”—Doctor
“American!”—says Guest’s character.

So Alsatians are French and thought of themselves as French.  I’ll give you an anecdote:  The Marx Brothers’ (my kind of Marxists) father, Sam Marx, was from Strasbourg and was called “Frenchie” by everyone who knew him, including his famous sons.  He didn’t speak “HochDeutsch” (High German) but rather “PlatDeutsch”  (Low German) which is more like Flemish or Dutch.

No, I don’t think you are a rational person. I think you are filled with hate and anger and I suspect you hate modern liberal Germany which has accepted the consequences of WWII and gone on to become a wonderful, productive and beautiful nation.

We spent our holiday over the Christmas and New Years break on a cruise for 2 weeks with friends from Germany and had a wonderful time.  We have other friends in Germany as well as in Austria.

I abandoned my bigotry against Germans at age 15, in 1971, when I first went there and realized that TODAY’s German people are no more responsible for the Holocaust than I was for the genocide of American Indians.

(BTW, the last slaughter of Indians was at Wounded Knee in 1890, and NONE of my grandparents were around then—one wasn’t born and the other 3 hadn’t come to the USA yet).

FT: You are being an idiot again.  Time either for your meds or to sober up. I don’t have the energy to waste on your ridiculousness.  Don’t tell me YOU are defending holocaust-deniers now!

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By ardee, June 15, 2009 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

AFriend, June 13 at 9:53 pm #
I have had my problems with KDelphi, as she has had with me. But I would rather a thousand arguments with her than play the stupid little game you relish.

While I realize that you are a legend in your own mind ( and nowhere else) even such a self proclaimed authority should have picked up on the Alito comment wherein he states that his immigrant background affected ( for the better presumably) his role as a jurist.

Even an agendised and annoying little person such as yourself should be able to note the quite similar citing by Alito and Sotomayor as to how their backgrounds affect their role as judges.

You have noted to KD that you will not converse with her again. Please grant me the same boon. You believe you have a rapier wit and a sharp mind, I have seen no evidence of either, instead clumsy and boorish wins the day with your debating technique. I believe most here seek honest repartee, just as I believe you do not.

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By Folktruther, June 15, 2009 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

Strausburg is also where the European parlement meets, quite reasonably given anarcissie’s history.  They took all the rooms when were were there a second time and we had to stay in Germany.

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By Anarcissie, June 15, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

The Alsatians speak either French or Alsatian, which is an Alemannic dialect not very close to standard German (Hochdeutsch) and not intelligible to German-speakers.  The Allemanni (“everybody”) were an alliance of tribes living along the Rhine in Roman times already distinct from other Germans further east.  I doubt if German nationalism is rife in Alsace, as it has become an important center of the new, hopefully post-nationalist Europe; dozens of big organizations and corporations have their home offices in Strasbourg.  The Allemanic regions were conquered by the Franks in the 8th century and a bit later by the Holy Roman Empire (a German confederation) so the passing back and forth of Alsace between the Franks (French) and the Germans began rather early on.  At least they weren’t devastated and depopulated as some other contested regions were.

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By Virginia777, June 15, 2009 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

I still say, how come Homeland Security is monitoring anti-Semitic extremist groups and completely ignoring so many others??

Hate-speech is RAMPANT on the Internet and is a huge problem - much of it directed at the poor and children of color - and yet little of this kind of hate-speech is monitored by Homeland Security.

Quite the contrary, our MSM happily (and openly) sources hate-blogs for “dirt” on issues that concern the poor, like public education.

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By Folktruther, June 15, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Pgg, Inherit DOES stick to cowboys and indians, he just applies it to the whole world.  He has not only been miseducated in the American truth tradition, and misinformed in the Zionist truth tradition, but he has been influence by Alyce Rosenbaum, aka Ayn Rand.  He lives in New Jersey, you know, which explains a lot.

I didn’t know Alcase had a Germany culture; Straussbourg was beautiful and the food was interesting, the people friendly and laid back.  German-French makes a nice culture.

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By pgg804, June 15, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Inherit:

Your view that “A/L was occupied territory after 1871—at least it was to the Alsatians and the Germans were their captors” is garbage.  An example of the hatred and lies that have been drilled into you.

Alastians are Germans because thats their ethnicity (or the majority of them) and their names are German.  There language had been German (even when they were under French control) and many or most speak it as a second language today.  I believe many or most are Protestant or Lutheran (France is mostly catholic).  They were a solid part of German culture (reading German books and talking with other Germans).  How does that make them French? 

The only thing that made them French was their geography.  There was no vote held on which country they wanted to be part of, but they spoke, wrote, many or most were Protestant and were Germans so the the majority probably would have voted to go to Germany.  They were as German as Bavarians, Prussians and all the other German groups that were united in 1871 - none of which felt like a united people yet. 

I don’t think they wanted to serve in the German army , but they did.  I don’t think they wanted to serve in the French army either.

Please don’t give me any compliments.  I am a very reasonable person.  I’m a moderate/liberal and want equal rights and fair treatment for all.  You are an anti-German bigot.  Stick to your cowboys and Indians, because you don’t know my culture.

I noticed you said nothing about the article on Madeleine Albright.  I keep educating you on your hypocrisy (all we ever heard of for years was stolen Jewish art).

The French and Germans both did not trust the Alsatians, because as I said earlier they were not patriotic - towards either side .  This is a fact

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By Inherit The Wind, June 15, 2009 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

Paracelsus, June 15 at 12:32 am #

@ IHW

You won’t get ME to defend that Treaty of Versailles! Woodrow Wilson’s arrogance and use of the unprincipled and incompetent mysterious Col. House lead to all KINDS of stupid ideas. :D

No, I didn’t I could. I think the main problem with the League of Nations was that it was a legislative body in the business of constantly generating new treaties. I think Congress at that time balked at a process that would only involve the President and the Senate, and would tie the government to an international deliberative body.

Colonel House has been mentioned by many conspiracy researchers. In essence House was Wilson’s brain.

I mentioned that it probably would have been best if the US stayed out of the Great War to an Israeli. He did not like that idea so much.
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The League would have removed the power to make war from Congress and given it to a foreign body.  Even with the special stipulations of a US veto on our participation, the war-making power would have resided with the President.  Unlike the last 40 years, Congress was unwilling to give up that VITAL power to the President.

I’ve heard of House as Wilson’s Brain. If Col. House was Wilson’s brain then he was a half-wit!

Unfortunately, had we NOT intervened, who ever won the War would have completely dismembered the other side remaining as a dominating power in Europe.  That would have been either Germany or France, and neither was acceptable.  We prevented the worst excesses but Wilson was too inept, idealistic, arrogant and downright STUPID to do what he should have done: Rejected insane reparations, insisted Germany with its new democracy be IMMEDIATELY recognized, insisted that the NEW German government be part of the negotiations, and used the war-debts as a sledge-hammer on Clemenceau and Lloyd George.

But he didn’t.  I’ve read much of Arthur Link’s work on Wilson (I heard him speak and he was introduced as having “Lived more with Woodrow Wilson than even Woodrow Wilson!”) but I’m still not impressed. I think Wilson was a bad President and Roosevelt in 1912 or Hughes in 1916 would have been better.  Wilson was a virulent racist, who thought “Birth of a Nation” was accurate history DESPITE being a respected historian himself.

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By Paracelsus, June 14, 2009 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

@ IHW

You won’t get ME to defend that Treaty of Versailles! Woodrow Wilson’s arrogance and use of the unprincipled and incompetent mysterious Col. House lead to all KINDS of stupid ideas. :D

No, I didn’t I could. I think the main problem with the League of Nations was that it was a legislative body in the business of constantly generating new treaties. I think Congress at that time balked at a process that would only involve the President and the Senate, and would tie the government to an international deliberative body.

Colonel House has been mentioned by many conspiracy researchers. In essence House was Wilson’s brain.

I mentioned that it probably would have been best if the US stayed out of the Great War to an Israeli. He did not like that idea so much.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

Paracelsus, June 14 at 10:35 pm #

“The Economic Consequences of the Peace” mentioned that the Peace of Versailles imposed a “Carthaginian peace”. That seems to be an accurate assessment. If Keynes was blackmailed into being a German agent then it was because the Germans could really use the help. smile Yes, honey traps are very old contrivances. But I don’t think such circumstances would defeat the notion that the Versailles Treaty was in many respects a bad idea.
********************************************

You won’t get ME to defend that Treaty of Versailles! Woodrow Wilson’s arrogance and use of the unprincipled and incompetent mysterious Col. House lead to all KINDS of stupid ideas. Lloyd George and Clemeanceau got all sorts of ridiculous concessions from Wilson and House as the price for getting his dream of the League of Nations founded.  Wilson assumed that with the League, ALL the imbalances of the Treaty could be rectified.  He was the worst kind of idealist: the kind who performs uncontrolled experiments on other peoples’ lives—in this case, nations.  Reagan and Bush were the same way, to our sorrow.

Mostly, Wilson failed at his primary purpose for getting us into the War and for going to Versailles: To ensure that there would be a balance of power in Europe.  The far more capable SecStates under Harding and Coolidge, Frank Kellogg and Charles Evans Hughes, actually were able to achieve it.

Even Hitler’s rise would have been short-circuited had France and Britain reacted militarily when Hitler re-militarized the Rhineland.  Germany in 1936 was still far too weak to have resisted the old Allies—it was a brilliant bluff and gamble that lead the world into disaster.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

pgg804, June 14 at 9:46 pm #

...
On Alsace-Lorraine, I was there a long time ago.  Its very beautiful.  The Nobel Peace Prize winning doctor Albert Schweitzer was close friends with Kaiser Wilhelm II’s daughter.

Alsatians are probably smart.  They have a reputation in both France and Germany for not being patriotic.  After France lost “The Battle of France” many alsatians fought in the German army.  I would think they would have preferred not to.

Also Interesting,  Alfred Dreyfuss, the accused spy of “The Dreyfuss Affair” was of Alsatian Jewish descent.  It makes me wonder if being alsatian added to the suspicions against him.
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This may be the most reasonable thing you’ve posted.  I don’t know about the Alsatian rep for not being very loyal—I can see the Germans thinking that since A/L was occupied territory after 1871—at least it was to the Alsatians and the Germans were their captors—why WOULD they want to serve in the German army?

As for the French viewing it that way, I just don’t know.  Certainly France’s desire to keep things “French” is famous, even to having a language police to try to keep anglicized words like “sandwich” and “weekend” out of the lexicon.  They may be welcoming of immigrants but they expect them to lose the old country and embrace and become French.  Alsatians, while French and proud of it, are also proud of their German heritage and their very beautiful part of the world (I’ve been to both Strasbourg and Metz).

I do not know if in L’affaire Dreyfus his Alsatian background added to the fury of his being a “treasonous” Jew.  But it’s certainly plausible.  While he was exonerated and restored to full rand, his career and life were still ruined.  Did Esterhazy ever get prosecuted?

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By Paracelsus, June 14, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

It’s called “The Economic Consequences of the Peace” by a very young and arrogant John Maynard Keynes, long before he wrote his seminal “General Theory”.

Keynes is reputed to have actually been a German agent, something to do with a Gay lover of his.

“The Economic Consequences of the Peace” mentioned that the Peace of Versailles imposed a “Carthaginian peace”. That seems to be an accurate assessment. If Keynes was blackmailed into being a German agent then it was because the Germans could really use the help. smile Yes, honey traps are very old contrivances. But I don’t think such circumstances would defeat the notion that the Versailles Treaty was in many respects a bad idea.

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

For the record, just so there is no confusion, I don’t think there should be any border changes.  Europe is doing well and Europeans are coming closer and closer together.

But ust like they say every time they show the NAZIS deeds, “history must be told so it doesn’t repeat itself”, the media should start discussing what was done to the Germans so that doesn’t repeat itself.  This is happening a little bit (in Germany at least).

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

Heres the article on the disputed/stolen art in the the Czech newspaper “The Prague Post”.

http://www.praguepost.cz/news051700f.html

——————————————————————————————-

On Alsace-Lorraine, I was there a long time ago.  Its very beautiful.  The Nobel Peace Prize winning doctor Albert Schweitzer was close friends with Kaiser Wilhelm II’s daughter.

Alsatians are probably smart.  They have a reputation in both France and Germany for not being patriotic.  After France lost “The Battle of France” many alsatians fought in the German army.  I would think they would have preferred not to.

Also Interesting,  Alfred Dreyfuss, the accused spy of “The Dreyfuss Affair” was of Alsatian Jewish descent.  It makes me wonder if being alsatian added to the suspicions against him.

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By Paracelsus, June 14, 2009 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Albright’s family did not break any laws.  Under the Benes decree millions of Czechs moved into and took over the German expellees property.  It was legal theft.  I know you don’t like to hear this, you only want to hear how bad the Germans were.

I recall hearing about West Germans trying to get back family property in East Germany that had been confiscated and given to East Germans. Such things happen.

I have a passage from Wikipedia, and it was accused by neo-nazis and aryans as being run by “Zio-interests”. Call it a weird reverse credibility.

After the defeat of the Nazis in the European Theatre of World War II and the collapse of Nazi Germany and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Albright and family moved back to Prague, where they were given a luxurious apartment in the Hradcany district (which later caused controversy, as it had belonged to an ethnic German Bohemian industrialist family forced out by the Beneš decrees - see “Controversies”). Korbel was named Czechoslovak Ambassador to communist Yugoslavia, and the family moved to Belgrade. Communists governed Yugoslavia, and Korbel was concerned his daughter would be indoctrinated with Marxist ideology in a Yugoslav school, so she was taught by a governess and later sent to the Prealpina Institut pour Jeunes Filles in Chexbres, on Lake Geneva in Switzerland.[7] Here, she learned French and went by Madeleine, the French version of Madlenka, her Czech nickname.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit:

There you go with your insults again.  You can’t have a debate without sinking to that level.

I watched a television program a few years ago with Czech playwright / politician Vaclav Havel and Madeleine Albright sitting next to him.  I don’t recall the subject of the discussion.  Stolen Jewish art during WW II may have been part of it.

During the question / answer session, someone asked Secretary of State Albright this exact question (about the house her family moved into and stolen art).  I can’t recall everything, I remembered she waffled and didn’t give an answer When the questioner persisted, Vaclav Havel responded to some statement being made with “I think we should be concerned with stolen Jewish art”.

Vaclav Havel is a great man and made some beautiful statements or speeches about reconciliation between Czechs and Germans.  But I remember mentioning this to my mother and she was disappointed.  It was either on this show or in her book that Albright acknowledged her family moving into the industrialists home.  The German family was going to bring her family to court, but then I never heard about it again.

Albright’s family, like millions of other Czechs moved into the German expellees homes.  My purpose in bringing this up is because a few years ago (maybe 10 years ago), hardly a week passed by without Jewish art stolen during WW II being mentioned.  But not surprisingly, nothing was said about what was stolen from the Germans.  Thats the way its always been.  The commentators never mentioned that Germany had more art stolen from them during the war than any other nation.  Most of it resides in Russian museums.

Albright’s family did not break any laws.  Under the Benes decree millions of Czechs moved into and took over the German expellees property.  It was legal theft.  I know you don’t like to hear this, you only want to hear how bad the Germans were.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Diamond:

You have some of the pieces there.

It’s called “The Economic Consequences of the Peace” by a very young and arrogant John Maynard Keynes, long before he wrote his seminal “General Theory”.

Keynes is reputed to have actually been a German agent, something to do with a Gay lover of his.

Yet the INITIAL outlandish sum of $32 billion was later cut in half to about $16 Billion and the total debts of the Allies to the US about the same time was estimated about $11 Billion…so the debts owed by the Allies to the US were of the same order of magnitude as the Reparation debt.  Still it was too much and was never repaid.  By 1925, the French and British had realized they would be lucky to get a fraction of that.

As for the rise of Hitler, let us not forget ANOTHER factor—fear of “Bolshevism”—Communism was more real in Germany than in any other democratic nation.  Up until 1933, the Social Democrats pretty much ran the show but with coalition governments (that average government in Weimar lasted 11 months, but certain individuals remained—like Gustav Stresemann at the Foreign Ministry). Yet the KPD (the Communists) were a serious force to be reckoned with and at one point were consistently getting 25% of the votes and with it 25% of the seats in the Reichstag.  It was the ONLY nation outside of Russia with serious Communist party—and a really popular one too.  Hitler’s rise heavily depended on his promise to CRUSH the Communists from existence. The ordinary citizen was likely to be far more scared of the rising tide of Communists than a few hundred thousand Jews who had lived in Germany for centuries and were more integrated than Jews in any other nation other than the US.  German Jews abandoned Yiddish and spoke German instead.

The causes of WWII cannot be simply attributed to the idiot mistakes made at Versailles.  They were one and only one factor.

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By diamond, June 14, 2009 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

‘The Treaty of Versailles didn’t destroy the German Economy…this is pure idiocy.  Something called World War I destroyed it, as it destroyed the French and British economies as well—why do you think they demanded such draconian (and unrealistic) reparations?  Plus the UK and France had ENORMOUS war debts owed to the United States, and perpetually tried to link repayment of those debts to recovering reparations.  The War Debt was a club used by the US on France all the way into the 1960’s.’ ITW

Britain and France didn’t have to pay another country an amount greater than their gross domestic product. Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles,Germany did. As to why they imposed this ridiculous burden on Germany: it was done quite deliberately, not simply to punish Germany for the war but to destroy Germany as an industrial power so it couldn’t start another war. World War I was started by Kaiser Wilhelm II (among others) because he was born with a withered arm and felt he had to prove he was a military hero as well as emperor. He sent his army through Belgium to attack France because a Bosnian Serb shot an Austrian archduke. The connection is obvious, isn’t it? After the war ended in disastrous defeat Wilhelm had to escape Germany in disguise. It has been said that if some of his ‘subjects’had got their hands on him they would have hanged him. Essentially, World War I removed the European aristocracy from political power so every cloud has a silver lining. The point is that the Treaty of Versailles, far from preventing another war, actually created the conditions where the rise of someone like Hitler was almost inevitable. It hasn’t only happened in Germany that social and economic collapse produces a ‘hero’ who becomes a murderous dictator and plunges the country into war. John Maynard Keynes told the others who were putting the treaty together that it would lead to another war but they were determined to grind Germany into the dust -for revenge and because they liked to feel they had the power to change and control history. After World War II there was no Treaty of Versailles but there was the Marshall Plan which did the exact opposite of what the Treaty of Versailles had tried to do. The Marshall Plan produced the Wirtschaftswunder, the ‘economic miracle’ and Germany has been prosperous and had no wars since. Which is my point.

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By Paracelsus, June 14, 2009 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

@ tahitifp

I found this but it’s the Bush/Harriman/Hitler WWll connection. Does this help?

Thank you. Hitler did get a lot of help from British/American elites, but WWI also has this canned quality in that it did not have to happen. It seems if you give enough weapons to some neighborhood gangs they will eventually reach an ignition point of violence. I recall reading somewhere that British Empire did not really begin major expansion until the Bank of England was established in 1695 or there-abouts. then the number of wars increased by the British. Feudalistic nations were always limited by how much they could tax or borrow from aristocratic vassals. Monarchs were many times faced with diminution of their estates and resources. Elastic credit is wonderful for prosecuting wars of conquest. And the credit is not borrowed against the assets of royalty but against the full faith and credit of the monarchical republic.

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By tahitifp, June 14, 2009 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

I also found this for you economic/banking aficianados.  The Weimer Superinflation:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13673

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By tahitifp, June 14, 2009 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

I found this but it’s the Bush/Harriman/Hitler WWll connection. Does this help?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
How Bush’s grandfather helped Hitler’s rise to power

http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

  * Silesian-American Corporation, ... managed by Prescott Bush, and by his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, who supplied Dub-a-Ya with his name.
  * Prescott Bush was also a director of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, (this one owned largely by Roland’s brother, Averell Harriman), which owned about a third of the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation, the rest owned by Friedrich Flick, (a member of Himmler’s “Circle of Friends” who donated to the S.S.).
  * Bush’s great-grandfather, [G. Herbert] Bert Walker, helped organize the Harriman investment in the Hamburg-Amerika Line of ships, of which grandfather Prescott became a director. It was seized on August 28, 1942 because it was used to give free passage to Nazi propaganda and propagandists, and had earlier shipped guns to the Nazi’s private armies to assist their takeover of Germany.
  * On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the “Trading With the Enemy Act,” seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2

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By Paracelsus, June 14, 2009 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment

I thought I would throw this in. Does anybody have any knowledge of the history of central banking in Germany from Empire Germany through the Weimar, and the Third Reich? I have heard that one of the drivers of armament spending was the easy credit offered by central banking. I have heard this idea, but I have been able to cite it well.

Anyhow the conjecture goes that central banking in Europe had been introduced in the 19th century, and was useful in bankrolling the powder keg that later exploded in August, 1914. 

As to the sinking of the Lusitania, the real causus belli for the US would have to be the Zimmerman telegram. The border of Mexico is still recognized as the weak under belly of the United States. Back then Pershing was dueling with Pancho Villa for he was making raids into the United States to finance his army. Plan San Diego had been hatched as well.

http://www.blackpast.org/?q=aaw/plan-san-diego-1915

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C06E2D61F30E033A25750C1A9649D946896D6CF

This is the same Fall my great grandfather dealt with. LOL.

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By scotttpot, June 14, 2009 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Psychosis leading to paranoia and violence.Is this really news?
If this society would recognize and treat illness we might see less of this
behavior.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 14, 2009 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

Trying to find reason behind a fanatics cause is impossible, because reason does not exist in the demented minds of misfitted fanatics. 

Placing right, left or other wings on fanatics is a form of ridiculousness.  Fanatics have only a love of hate for their cause, which when it becomes an obsessive behavior promotes acttions which are not comprehend by the non frantic of a specific cause.  Promoted as a club or group, fanatics working together in their fostering of hate is most important, perpetuating collective sick minds working together, individualism no longher exits. 

Hate is bonding for fanatics,  anything can fester the fanatics hate, be it political, racial, gender actually anything one can conjure up. 

It seems hate feeds upon itself, against those who are not perceived as the same as the hating fanatic.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Yeah, Alsace-Lorraine has Germanic people—even speak German and Plattdeutsch.  But they considered themselves French in 1871, in 1919, in 1940, and in 1945, and today.  Robert Schumann, the great French post-WWII Foreign Minister was from there, too.  And he was FRENCH despite his German antecedents.

I knew Poland was shifted West.  I didn’t realize that Russia took a chunk of East Prussia as well.  Well, on the principle that all the Jews need to get out of Israel, we should move all the Russians east, the Poles east, and give that land back to Germany.  I’ll bet there’s at least 1000 to 2000 people in the world that want that.

BTW: Germany and Austria LOST WWI.  Losers get chopped up until very, very recently.  Germany had NO problem grabbing Alsace-Lorraine twice—and lost it twice.

Of course, now with the European Union it’s not nearly as big a deal.  People in the EU can live in any country, use the same money, and, in many ways it’s like moving from state to state.

But PGG is clearly a Holocaust denier and it EVERY post is seeking to come up with justifications to rehabilitate Adolph Hitler, the man who is arguably the greatest mass murderer in history.  Only Stalin and Mao rival him.

Check it out: Every post is a justification for German actions in WWI, and in WWII and a complaint against what happened to Germany after the wars.  Notice he NEVER defends the Weimar democracy, but drops subtle toads on it as well.  As soon as it became clear others knew Hilberg he stopped quoting him.

The patterns of holocaust denial advocates are clear and obvious no matter how PGG tries to shuck and jive away from it.  Notice the little toad about Madeline Albright, unprovable and undocumented that she, a Jew, grew up in a “stolen” German home.  Implication: all Jews are thieves—more stereotypes.

You can’t fool me, PGG. I’ve seen through you from your first posts.

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By Jason!!, June 14, 2009 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

More parroting of the talking points. This has nothing to do with hannity beck or Limbaugh. A quick search on google provides many anti semetic rants here on truthdig and I think you would be hard pressed to label this site conservative.

You find crazies in all corners but trying to label them as “conservative” or “rightwing extremists” is dishonest and ignorant.

Eugene, you fail at journalism but get an A+ for propaganda pimping.

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

x

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

Inherit:  I don’t really care who you have an issue with, but David Irving is considered by many people the greatest historian of WW II and he is often labeled as a holocaust denier.  As I said earlier, historians don’t call themselves holocaust deniers, but people like you put that label on them to shut them up.

Media and the law (in Europe) have conspired to shut down free speech on this issue.  This is basic stuff.

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

Lands taken from Germany as a result of Versailles:

From Patrick Buchanan’s “Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War”

Northern Schleswig
Eupen
Malmedy
Alsace Lorraine (to this people speak German here and have German names like Albert Schweitzer - from Alsace, Gutenberg, etc)
Polish Corridor and Poznania
Danzig (nestled within the Polish Corridor)- 90% German at that time
Memel
Eastern Upper Silesia

Austria was also butchered.  Czechoslovakia was created from Austria, including the Sudetenland.  It was a failed state from the very beginning.  These lands had always been a part of Austria.  Historians believe Prague was originally founded by Germans (Austrians).  3.5 million Germans (Austrians) lived in Czechoslovakia.  There were more Germans than Slovaks in the newly created country.  Germans had been the ruling class in Czechoslovakia before it became a state and they were stripped of their power by the Czechs.  Ethnic dissension was widespread.  The Slovaks resented what the Czechs did too.  In the 1990’s Slovakia broke away and became a country on its own.  All 3.5 million Germans were driven from their homes in Czechoslovakia (many moved to Bavaria)  after WW II under the Benes-decree.  This decree still stands today in violation of EU law and still forbids Germans from moving in (or buying their homes back that were stolen from them).

US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright’s family is from Czechoslovakia.  She came from a Jewish family.  Her family was moved into the stolen home of a wealthy German industrialist that lived in Prague.  They got everything including his art collection.  The stolen art collection is displayed in the Albright’s home still today. 

Austria had many other lands taken from it too.

During the war the allies agreed eastern Europe would be made German free.  At a conference they agreed all Germans would be driven from lands east of the Oder-Neisse river (the new German - Polish Border).  Many of these lands were founded by Germans and they had lived there since the middle ages (700-800 years in some cases).  In the biggest ethnic cleansing operation ever implemented, the biggest migration of people in history occurred.  Fourteen million Germans were driven from there homes and fled westward.  This was illegal under international law.  Many were gang raped and murdered along the way.

The allies did this so there would be no more ethnic dissension in the lands they stole from Germany.  Germany is 2/3 its former size.

The heart of East Prussia is Russian today (not Polish as Inherit said).  The former capital (Konigsberg) is here and the area is called Kaliningrad.  I visited there last year.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, June 14, 2009 at 6:42 am Link to this comment

AFriend:
’... My statement was not one of whether an Hispanic may reach a different conclusion than a Caucasian. My statement was in regards to whether a Caucasian could say he or she would reach a “better conclusion” than a person of different heritage and still be considered for the bench.

I believe that white man or woman would not. I believe that Caucasian would quickly be labeled a racist and would not, could not, get close to sitting the bench.’

If Caucasians were a generally discriminated category, the Causcasian might reach a “better” decision than a non-Caucasian on a discrimination issue, if by “better” we mean “more conscious of the results of discrimination”.  There is nothing racist in such an observation; it’s common sense.  Justice Alioto made a similar observation about his childhood as an Italian in an era when Italians were still not quite White.  No one seems to think he’s a racist.

I don’t know why people have such a problem with imagining themselves in the places of others in such matters, but they do, and it is obvious that an upper-class White male who went to prep-school, Ivy League, corporate law route is not going to have the same breadth of experience as someone who grew up female and Puerto Rican in a Bronx housing project and then went the Ivy League, corporate law part of the route.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

Outraged:

You and I merely disagree on some smaller debatable points, not on the general sense.  Hitler’s major financing didn’t come until later.  His short incarceration was due to other causes: Weimar didn’t replace the Kaiser’s monarchist judges with ones that respected democracy. The number of right-wing terrorists who received light sentences was outrageous.  Even the assassins of Foreign Minister Walther Rathenau received surprisingly light sentences.  They were right-wing terrorists and Rathenau, murdered in 1922, was a Jew.  A ditty circulated in the publications of the far right that translated roughly as “Death to Walther Rathenau, a dirty, rotten Jewish pig.”

IOW, Hitler was a small-potatoes right-winger whose almost laughable Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 got him sent to prison for 8 years, where he lived a surprisingly comfortable existence.

PGG:
Yeah, I guess my graduate seminars with Gerhard Weinberg, discoverer and editor of Hitler’s Second Book qualifies as bullshit High School history.

My issue isn’t with David Irving but with YOUR faulty portrayal of history.  The Lusitania event becomes DRASTICALLY different if it takes place in 1915 or in 1917 TOTALLY because of the German change to unrestricted sub warfare in 1916.  This is basic stuff.

BTW, GHK: Custer is no longer worshipped as hero in the United States but recognized as the wild, racist adventurer he was.  Quite frankly, viewing his demise at the Little Big Horn through the same lens as we view nations’ foreign relations, and viewing Sitting Bull as Prime Minister and Supreme Commander of the Apache Allied Forces, rather than as a feather-covered savage, gives a far better perspective of what happened to that arrogant idiot, Custer.  It seems more like General Pershing’s mission against Francisco Villa to stop a terrorist.  But I’m not that familiar with either the history of the Indian Wars or the Pershing invasion of Mexico.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 14, 2009 at 5:23 am Link to this comment

GKH:
You make points I can agree with or discuss. Your points about the German army are well-taken.

The Holocaust should NOT be considered a purely Jewish catastrophe, nor would I defend it as such. Hitler’s rage against his fellow Catholics was devastating.  I believe the estimates are 1/2 million Catholics murdered in the camps.  Current estimates are that European Jewry was about half of the Holocaust.

But what the Holocaust did to European Jewry has to be viewed in another context—of a near-successful genocide. Jewish culture and the Jewish population in Europe (outside of the Soviet Union) was virtually extinguished.  Unless you can enlighten me, I don’t believe any other ethnic group in Europe, not even the Roma (Gypsies) were so eliminated.

The niceties of International Law in the Balkans before the War is not an area I know very well, but I do know that nations frequently recognize other nations’ disputed territories.  The relationship between Russia and Serbia existed then and still existed in the ‘90’s when Russia opposed NATO’s intervention under Clinton.

Diamond:
What land stolen? Surely you don’t mean Alsace-Lorraine, stolen by Germany from France in 1871, returned in 1919, stolen again with the conquest of France in WWII and returned to France in 1945.

Or do you mean that tiny swath of land less than 50 miles wide called the Polish Corridor that gave Poland access to the Baltic Sea, but separated East Prussia from Germany proper? Much was made of this as strategically disastrous.  Yet we in the United States live happily despite our neighbor, Canada, having a FAR larger corridor to the Pacific called British Columbia dividing the Lower 48 from Alaska.

The Treaty of Versailles didn’t destroy the German Economy…this is pure idiocy.  Something called World War I destroyed it, as it destroyed the French and British economies as well—why do you think they demanded such draconian (and unrealistic) reparations?  Plus the UK and France had ENORMOUS war debts owed to the United States, and perpetually tried to link repayment of those debts to recovering reparations.  The War Debt was a club used by the US on France all the way into the 1960’s.

This is again more scapegoating to avoid dealing with the REAL issues Germany faced after the war. As soon as the hyper-inflation ended Germany began to prosper and became THE place to be in Europe.  Berlin was the hottest city in Europe in the 20’s and even into the early 30’s, making Paris look boring.  A little studying of the German culture during the Weimar period will reveal that.

Following WWII that Polish Corridor became moot as ALL of East Prussia and Danzig were given to Poland by the Soviet Union as Stalin grabbed the Eastern 1/3 of Poland for the USSR and moved the Poles to East Prussia where they are TO THIS DAY. Danzig is now Gdansk.

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By AFriend, June 14, 2009 at 4:34 am Link to this comment

Kesey Seven,

Are you saying that racism is acceptable if it’s delivered from someone who feels legitimately aggrieved?

Or are you saying that a white jurist in the United States would go unnoticed if he or she were to suggest that they, do to their background as a Caucasian, would reach better conclusions on the bench?

—-

My statement was not one of whether an Hispanic may reach a different conclusion than a Caucasian. My statement was in regards to whether a Caucasian could say he or she would reach a “better conclusion” than a person of different heritage and still be considered for the bench.

I believe that white man or woman would not. I believe that Caucasian would quickly be labeled a racist and would not, could not, get close to sitting the bench.

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 3:23 am Link to this comment

to “Outraged”

To underline my statement about General Custer and the comparison to the Nazi trials:

In the war declaration of 1812 against GB/Canada it is clearly indicated that it is “American duty” to remove the “British presence” as well the SAVAGE to finally control the continent ... (Loosely quoted)
Now what is soo different between “Savage” and “Untermensch”?

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 3:16 am Link to this comment

Copy

By Outraged, June 14 at 6:02 am #

Re: ppg804

Are you trying to convince us that corrupt people support each other….  who would’ve guessed it…?

I do have a question: Do think think Hitler “a good guy”?


In none of my posts did I ever say that Hitler was a good guy

What causes revisionism is that all what WW2 is about is labeled black and white.

As I said before you can’t hang a Nazi and call general Custer a hero and think it’s fair

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 3:11 am Link to this comment

To “Outraged”

Sorry that it ruffled your feathers…

A “Small incident can cause a large reaction”. This is not a question of law enforcement or better surveillance it is a responsibility of politicians to ensure once word one contract one signature does not cause a “blow back”

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 3:06 am Link to this comment

To Outraged

You are correct to a degree. Naturally Hitler was a “nobody” he joined the “Bavarian Free Corps” because the Austrian Army did not take him.

Reminds you of an “former Austrian who is now governor of California?” just a coincidence…

you have to understand Hitler’s rage against Austria:

Austria at that time was as “multicultural” as it can get. My great grand uncle who served in the Austro Hungarian Army needed for his officer’s commission to be fluent in 4 international languages, - German, English, French & Russian. PLUS 3 Slavic dialects.. to be a simple Lieutenant!

A feat Hitler could never achieve

If you read “Mein Kampf” you see his loathing about this multiculturalism

Hitler was nothing else but a shit.. a patsy for big money. BUT he had nevertheless some “suckingly nice ideas”

I always counter the arguments of the ww2 people..WHO made the money?

General Paulus said in Stalingrad to one of his aides: “I am a general and I have to take orders from a corporal!”

To be a “Leader” or “Fuehrer” takes Skills not just brute force. and trhis is where he failed. He cvould not have gotten far unless someone saw MONEY in him

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By Outraged, June 14, 2009 at 3:02 am Link to this comment

Re: ppg804

Are you trying to convince us that corrupt people support each other….  who would’ve guessed it…?

I do have a question: Do think think Hitler “a good guy”?

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By Outraged, June 14, 2009 at 2:55 am Link to this comment

Re” GKH

Your comment:  “The equality Jews had at that time in Germany was unparalleled to the world that still segregated. And then a “promise” fora “Jewish Homeland” turned the tide… sorry then you understand the rage of Hitler and Germany in general.

Not that it shall be excused! On the contrary! But it shows how a small incident can sway a whole nation’s perceptions. And it was on this “emotion” on which Hitler rode to power. The same way Bush rode on the 9-11 fake”

Check out the BOLD print….. need I say more, LONE WOLVES, my ass.

GKH, your supposed “small incident” WAS a small incident and WAS NOT what you claim caused Hitler’s rise to power.  My, my, my…..please someone, “wake me when the war is over”.

Hitler DID NOT gain power because of some obtuse happening THIS IS FOLKLORE and revisionist ideological bullshit.  Wake up or Shut up, your ignorance is showing.

Sure… it was some small happening that no one would have guessed….. what a surprise….the FACT that it makes no sense at ALL, is beside the point….. believe me, I’m not “endorsing” nor attempting to QUALIFY this utter and incoherent LIE…... really….folks, I’m simply looking at far-reaching bullshit and want you to swallow it….

Really….really…no, for real…really…. I believe you, really…..

Get bent.

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By Outraged, June 14, 2009 at 2:23 am Link to this comment

Re: diamond

Your comment:  “The German economy was pretty much wrecked by the First World War and the treaty and it was then finished off by the collapse of Wall Street and it NEVER RECOVERED until Hitler came to power, refused to pay the war reparations, threw the French out of the Ruhr and gave virtually full employment to the Germans as he prepared for his total war. These are historical facts whether you like them or not. Hitler was not some demon who sprang from the ether fully formed. There are historical reasons for his rise.”

Some of what you aver is true, but YOU negate the fact that Hitler WAS financed by CORRUPT CORPORATE ENITIES and individual capitalists in America.  Hitler was “washed up”, kaput….. until some “decided” to shore up his BS.  This was the money game, they cared not one whit who lived or died.  Theirs was a thirst for “fame and fortune” with FORTUNE as an overriding factor.

Sure, there were other factors in play….however, Hitler was on “his last legs” so to speak, UNTIL…... he was FINANCED, this is what turned the tables.

Your assertion:  “‘Hitler didn’t come to power until long after in 1933, and, it was THE DEPRESSION hitting in 1929 that gave Hitler the boost he needed.

This is INACCURATE.  It was NOT the depression, it was the FINANCING which gave Hitler his power.  This initial FINANCING allowed and in fact, initiated…. the subsequent financing of many diverse corporate interests which led to the eventual outcome of Hitler and his ilks’ “rise to stardom”.

Everyone “jumped” on the band-wagon.  There was money to be made in slave labor, this has a LONG history, nothing new here folks….move on.

It is DEFLECTION of facts to consider supposed “old grievances” or outright hatreds which led to the disaster of Nazism.  This is a half-truth.  While old hatreds, religion and supposed “saving Germany” was the mantra, the overriding SUPPORT was from CORRUPT BUSINESS INTERESTS abroad.

Before this injection of monies, Hitler and his followers would have died their “natural” death.  They did not, BECAUSE of the financing they recieved.  Which, in turn, allowed them…. as they scaled the ladders of power, to easily solicit MORE funds from other nefarious monied interests.

Yes, things were “not good” in Weimar Germany, however this condition was EXPLOITED, by every means imaginable.  This then led to what we now call, Nazi Germany.

Hitler couldn’t AFFORD Goebbels, nor anyone else for that matter, he was done…... UNTIL, as “luck” would have it, he had his “saving grace”.

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 2:21 am Link to this comment

continued from my previous post:

23:“It is our good fortune to have an Irving. At least he provides fresh stimuli for historians.”

-Hans Mommsen Great Grandson of Theodor Mommsen who is generally regarded as the greatest classicist of the 19th century. Theodor Mommsen received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1902

24: On David Irving: “He has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary among historians that he does not deserve to be called an historian at all . . .”

- Professor Richard “Skunky” Evans, 
Professor of Modern History at Cambridge
[received $250,000 expert witness fee
in the Lipstadt trial plus $2 million
book contract from one defendant ]

Evans was paid to testify against Irving in the trial.  Do you think $250,000 could affected his testimony?

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 2:20 am Link to this comment

continued from my previous post:

10: On Goebbels: “Silencing Mr Irving would be a high price to pay for freedom from the annoyance that he causes us. The fact is that he knows more about National Socialism than most professional scholars in his field, and students of the years 1933 1945 owe more than they are always willing to admit to his energy as a researcher and to the scope and vigor of his publications.

- Professor Gordon A Craig

11: “On Göring: “Irving’s research effort is awesome.”

- Professor Larry Thompson,
The Chicago Tribune

12: On Göring: “At the Nuremberg trials he defended himself with vigour and rebutted some of the charges that had wrongfully been made against him. It also came out in matters of art, on which David Irving is rather good.”

- Professor Norman Stone
The New Statesman


13: On Göring: “A very readable book, for Irving has always written with verve and energy. . . It tells us a great deal that we did not know. . . Highly interesting. . . Marvellous stuff.… An absorbing account. . . Most intriguing.”

- Professor Gordon A Craig

14: On Churchill’s War: “A vivid portrait accompanied by much striking and original analysis. It is certainly no mere repeat of the usual hagiography. Once again David Irving shows himself a master of documentation.”

- Professor John Erickson
University of Edinburgh


15: “On Göring: “Irving’s research effort is awesome.”

- Professor Larry Thompson,
The Chicago Tribune


16: On The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: “... deserves a warm welcome ... Mr. Irving has made splendid use of the Milch papers and other German records which he has been able to study.”

- Stephen Roskill
British official historian

17: On Rommel: “Most of Irving’s books are big, solid works like this. All are well written, exciting, fun to read, and all contain new information based on sensational discoveries.”

- Professor Stephen Ambrose
Washington Post

18: On PQ.17: “David Irving knows how to appraise the unassuming heroism of the ordinary man. From both points of view, his present book on the destruction of convoy PQ.17 is even better than the one which made his name on the bombing of Dresden. It is a melancholy story, with many separate strands leading to disaster.”

- Professor A. J. P. Taylor
The Observer

19: On Rommel: ““I am tremendously impressed. . . A superb character study and a fine work.”

- Matthew B. Ridgway
General, U.S. Army

20: On The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: “The result is a biography of Milch, slanted as it were towards the Luftwaffe. . . This one is scholarly, fair and highly informative.”

- Professor A. J. P. Taylor
The Observer

21: On Rommel: ““A fascinating study of the brilliant Rommel. It enables the reader to experience the emotions of a warrior in battle.”

- Mark W. Clark
General, U.S. Army (retired

22: Rommel: David Irving has been so successful in building up a reputation as The Man You Love To Hate that his merits as an historian are too easily forgotten. . . Professional historians have always envied him his immense capacity for work and his astonishing luck in finding new documents; and they should be grateful to him ... But his fellow historians can take nothing but pleasure in [this] work

- Professor Michael Howard
The Times

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By pgg804, June 14, 2009 at 2:17 am Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind said “NO legitimate historian questions whether or not the Holocaust occurred. None”.

I am not aware of any historians that say they are holocaust deniers.  That is a label put on a historian by others.  Its a label used to shut a historian up.  David Irving is often referred to in the press as a “holocaust denier” and a revisionist historian.  He denies being a “holocaust denier” and brought a libel suit against someone in a famous case in 2000.  In 2005 Austria arrested him for his views and he spent a year in jail. 

He is probably the greatest historian on WW II.  Read the following accolades from the leading historians in the world.  Read them all, but take special note of number 1, 6, 8, 10, 23 and 24. 

1: On Hitler’s War: “It was thoroughly researched and employed a variety of themes. . . It also confirmed Irving’s reputation as one of the world’s most thorough researchers and an exciting and readable historian.”

- Board of Deputies of British Jews, 1992, secret report

2: On Churchill’s War: “Enormous mastery of the sources and ability to maintain a sweep of narrative and command of detail that carry the reader along.”

- Professor Donald Cameron Watt

3: On Hitler’s War: “No praise can be too high for Irving’s indefatigable scholarly industry. He has sought and found scores of new sources, including many private diaries. Mr Irving’s craftsmanship as a writer has improved immensely, and I have enjoyed reading his long work from beginning to end.”

- Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper

4: On Hitler’s War: “This ground is traversed with a sense of immediacy and grasp of detail lacking in many of the recent Führer biographies . . . Mr Irving’s mastery of the German sources is superb.”

- Professor Donald Cameron Watt

5: On Hitler’s War: “DAVID IRVING has ransacked the world’s archives; he has discovered eye-witness accounts; he has unearthed diaries and correspondence which were thought to have been destroyed. . . a narrative which is, for all its inevitable complexities, remarkably comprehensible and, surprisingly readable.”

- Professor J.E. Molpurgo,
The Yorkshire Post


6: “British historian, David Irving, perhaps the greatest living authority on the Nazi era”

- Professor Stephen Spender,
The New York Times review of books

7: On Goebbels: “Irving does not deny that Jews were horribly butchered or just kept in such conditions as to die in their millions. Nevertheless, the book has received execration in some American pre-publication reviews for its alleged denials of the Holocaust and exculpations of Hitler. . . . There is no truth in these accusations.”

- Professor Norman Stone,
The Sunday Times


8: On Goebbels: “David Irving knows more than anyone alive about the German side of the Second World War. He discovers archives unknown to official historians ... His greatest achievement is Hitler’s War ... indispensable to anyone seeking to understand the war in the round. Irving as usual, knows more than anyone of the details [of the death of the Goebbels family in 1945]. He does not spare us.”

- Professor Sir John Keegan,
The Daily Telegraph

9: On Goebbels: “Some critics, including Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University, have accused Irving of ‘trying to destroy the memory of those who . . . perished at the hands of tyrants.’ Even a cursory inspection of this new, 700-page plus account [Goebbels] does not support that assertion.”

- Professor Francis L. Loewenheim

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 2:06 am Link to this comment

To make it a bit more clear about “Lord Balfour”:

During WW1 the UK Armies did not even have Jews serve in their officer corps while the German Army had Jewish officers as well even regulated religious holidays according to faith. This meant the Jewish officer observed his Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday Sundown and the Christian Officer observeved his Sunday and so forth according to religions in service. The equality Jews had at that time in Germany was unparalleled to the world that still segregated. And then a “promise” fora “Jewish Homeland” turned the tide… sorry then you understand the rage of Hitler and Germany in general.

Not that it shall be excused! On the contrary! But it shows how a small incident can sway a whole nation’s perceptions. And it was on this “emotion” on which Hitler rode to power. The same way Bush rode on the 9-11 fake

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By GKH, June 14, 2009 at 1:52 am Link to this comment

Sorry to barge in like that but ....

pgg804 has some truly valid arguments.

I am Austrian by birth and education and now Canadian citizen for over 20 years.

What struck me as odd reading all comments was that no one mentioned Lord Balfour.

Let me explain a bit more. I was raised catholic and i am now an atheist. I literally “hate” Nazis, not because what they did to the Jews, but what they did to my family.

What pisses me most is people who equate NAZI with “Socialism”
“National Sozialismus” means in essence this:
National control but fair wages/food to have a quiet populace. It has nothing to do with socialism
I am not a holocaust denier, I am rather a person who challenges people to please list the OTHERS who also died in this “death machine”.
My Uncle died in HAID a sub concentration camp of Mauthausen. He did not die as a JEW he DIED as a CATHOLIC whose ONLY crime was to vote NO in the 1938 referendum after the so called “Anschluss”.
To make the Holocaust a purely “Jewish” event is what riles me most. What about the socialists, the Union leaders, the communists, the gays, the Jehovah witnesses, the gypsies, the mentally challenged and so more, - ADD another 5 million!
Each time I see a report on the holocaust they ONLY talk about the 6 millions. Maybe 1:100 they mention on the side line the “others”.

Now let us start with history…

The “Shot that was heard around the world”  was fired by a Serb on June 28th 1914 - (Coincidentally also my B-day) Serbia was at that time a disputed “Province” of the Austro-Hungarian empire.
Yet Russia pledged support in case of separation….

By International law. HOW can you pledge support to a PROVINCE?

On the Western front all went fine for Germany for a while till a Lord Balfour asked the Zionist movement to pledge their support for the UK in exchange for a Palestine Jewish home land. And from then on all went belly up…

This is what Hitler was using as an excuse to rally Germany behind him! This IS what he in so many speeches called the “Betrayal”.

On the other hand fair is fair: How can the USA hang the Nazi war criminals, - Which they surely were - hang them in Nuremberg and in same time call General Custer an “American Hero”?

“HISTORY” means exactly that: “HIS - STORY” The one who wins writes the story.

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By diamond, June 14, 2009 at 1:24 am Link to this comment

Inherit the wind, I’ve lived in Germany, I have a Master of Letters degree in German and I’m too well informed to sympathize with Nazis. I also know this shit backwards and forwards and I know it infinitely better than you do or ever will. I have absolutely no sympathy for Nazis, fascists or any ultra right individual or group. Quite the opposite. If you think that sprinkling dates through your post makes you right you couldn’t be more wrong. You act as if Hitler turned up in 1933. Hitler fought in the first world war and he was always there agitating in the background throughout the economic devastation of the twenties and writing a little tome called ‘Mein Kampf’, cultivating reactionary politicians and military figures and making his plans.

‘Hitler didn’t come to power until long after in 1933, and, it was THE DEPRESSION hitting in 1929 that gave Hitler the boost he needed.’

This is exactly what I said when I described the collapse of Wall Street wiping out the German middle class financially but that doesn’t change one bit what had gone before: namely the Treaty of Versailles which starved the German economy of funds and the occupation of the Ruhr which removed Germany’s industrial capacity and therefore its productivity. John Maynard Keynes told his political cronies exactly what was going to happen and it did. Anyone with an ounce of commonsense could see what was going to happen but the French were too intent on revenge to listen to anyone.

‘Again, the hyper-inflation of 1923 was long, long over with the adoption of the Rentenmark (Land-Mark) replacing the Reichsmark.  The hyper-inflation was artificially created by the Weimar leadership turning on the printing press and ended by turning it back off.  Hitler’s rise was much later.  By the time of the Locarno Pact in 1925 Hitler had been written of as an obscure fanatic who was in jail for treason.’

What are you talking about? You admit there was hyper inflation and that the Weimar government was printing money but refuse to admit that the war and the war reparations that followed the Treaty of Versailles had destroyed the German economy, necessitating that money be printed. Why do you deny what is completely obvious? So what if Hitler was in jail? He had friends in high places which is why he got out of jail.

‘Chronology is unimpeachable and proves you don’t understand what happened.  You can’t show cause and effect when there are huge gaps with game changing occurrences between the events you site.’

That’s cite. The point you’re trying to make is lost on me. What does it matter what kind of gaps there were? That is irrelevant. That’s like saying that because Reagan put the American economy on a disaster course in the eighties when those chickens finally came home to roost in 2007 it had nothing to do with Reagan. Of course some people do say this but it’s a distortion of history. The German economy was pretty much wrecked by the First World War and the treaty and it was then finished off by the collapse of Wall Street and it NEVER RECOVERED until Hitler came to power, refused to pay the war reparations, threw the French out of the Ruhr and gave virtually full employment to the Germans as he prepared for his total war. These are historical facts whether you like them or not. Hitler was not some demon who sprang from the ether fully formed. There are historical reasons for his rise.

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By Outraged, June 14, 2009 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

Oh…boy, I must’ve had, what they call around here one too many brewski’s….. did ppg804 really say this!!!!

“The Nazis wanted to take back some of the land stolen from Germany after WW I.  I sympathize with that.  I completely agree with that.  In fact, Germany had a right to all the land stolen from it.  Virtually all Germans wanted their land back .  Thats what you call a nazi-sympathizer.  I’m a German sympathizer.  If those views were put forth by communist, socialist, Nazi or any other government I would have supported those views.”

How did I miss this the FIRST time around….. yeah, that’ll be another “round” for us “bigots” since apparently that dilation (ouch, reminds me of childbirth that word) of the blood vessels has not yet had its heretofore necessary and desired effect upon my brain.

So, ppg804…..do you “sympathize with that” or “completely agree with that”?  You’ve said both…. quite honestly from here it is a quandry as to your actual stance.  Which is it?

Another thing, do you endorse communism, socialism and/or Nazi’s if “you get yours”?  That’s what it sounds like…..hmmmmm… I’ve been thinkin’ on this, still…. that’s what it sounds like.  Can you be more illustrative and specific?  I’m having a hellova time trying to decipher your post.

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By Outraged, June 14, 2009 at 12:06 am Link to this comment

Re: ppg804

Your comment: “You continuously throw slurs (holocaust denier, nazi-sympathizer), while you demonstrate your own bigotry.  Holocaust denier should not be an insult, but its obvious you intend it that way and is viewed that way in society (hence the term denier).”

The Holocaust victims/exposers DO NOT DENY that there were those other than Jews that suffered or died.  Here’s a big “howdy-dowdy” Fuck off…. from this “ugly American” (your assertion).

Listen you hate-filled supposed European, FOR THE RECORD…. KNOW, that you do not speak for the German People who actually DID suffer, nor for any Europeans of integrity.

C’mon, tell us how you really feel.  Tell us.  We’re listening…..have at er’.  You must know millions support you….. right?  That is the mantra,, isn’t it?  C’mon…. don’t be shy.  Are you ashamed of your stance?

Shame, shame, shame on you, I’ve always heard that “you should stand up” and “be counted”, c’mon…. BE COUNTED!  We have our ears wide open, I’m flexible, albeit not STUPID, but flexible.

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By pgg804, June 13, 2009 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, as usual you completely ignore every point I made.  Your ignorance and bigotry are demonstrated continuously.  You continuously throw slurs (holocaust denier, nazi-sympathizer), while you demonstrate your own bigotry.  Holocaust denier should not be an insult, but its obvious you intend it that way and is viewed that way in society (hence the term denier).

You place the value of Jewish lives above all Europeans and Africans and demonstrate that racism by backing the hypocritical Holocaust Museum while denying recognition of the atrocities the US committed against blacks and Indians - you are the racist because you prioritize the importance of lives by their race.

You’ve been on Truthdig, while I’ve corresponded with two top historians and scholars. 

Thanks for the year of the sinking of the Luisitania.  It was a simple mistake on my part. Germany’s policy was fairer than Britain’s whose restrictions were starving German civilians.  Germany used its subs to prevent arms from entering Britain - arms the US was shipping and lied about.  Yes, I know the ship was British, what is your point?

The point of the assassination is it started the war stupid.  Austria’s entry into little Serbia should not have amounted to anything.  Tiny Israel destroys its neighbors constantly for lobbing a home made rocket over the border that kills no one. 

You cite your high school history book, but ignore the most obvious points that can be derived from the facts. 

The Nazis wanted to take back some of the land stolen from Germany after WW I.  I sympathize with that.  I completely agree with that.  In fact, Germany had a right to all the land stolen from it.  Virtually all Germans wanted their land back .  Thats what you call a nazi-sympathizer.  I’m a German sympathizer.  If those views were put forth by communist, socialist, Nazi or any other government I would have supported those views. 

You’re an ignorant and insulting person.  You’re incapable of thinking on your own and you cite the history you were taught in high school.  “Who gives a shit about the assassination? ”  you said.  Only someone incapable of formulating a thought on his own (and has to cite a historians opinion) would say that. 

You would never take an opinion that would put you at odds with the generally accepted views by society.  Hence, you view blacks and Indians as less important than Jews.  Under the the Communists or NAZIS you would have done fine, because you are a like robot that would never say anything original and certainly not controversial.  That is what allows you to throw all your insults.

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By Outraged, June 13, 2009 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Great post.

Re: Thomas Mc

Your comment: “This wave of right wing terrorism is exactly what the Right has been trying to incite for months, and it isn’t going to stop now. They are more than willing to destroy this country in order to obtain totalitarian control over it.”

I agree.  This is why Ms. Napolitano said to watch for rightwing extremism, it is a very real threat.  Many of them are backed by monied interests.  Remember the Home Depot CEO who said, (paraphrased) “If any managers supported “The Employee Free Choice Act” they should be taken out back and shot.”  We could say he was simply shooting his mouth off, BUT it isn’t likely for this simple reason, how many people do you know or have even MET in your lifetime you believe would ever make a comment to that effect, even if they disagreed with the Act…?

Through all these years I can say I’ve met a couple (but I’ve read many more)....sure, AND THEY ARE/WERE VICIOUS PEOPLE, determined to see their tenets realized, in their lifetime.  Sometimes we know…... not so much by intuitiveness, but by the strange encounters we’ve had.  People so bizarre in their worldview that you are literally taken aback.  These are not people we regularly associate with, so for a time we forget them.  But they come back to us, a distant memory…. an anomaly we never could quite shake, it is then we begin to consider the larger premise of their stance and relate it to our world and the incongruities we see within it.  Then we READ and READ and READ, because now we see WE NEED TO KNOW.  It matters.

An ever-widening swath of The People know.

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By Thomas Mc, June 13, 2009 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

This wave of right wing terrorism is exactly what the Right has been trying to incite for months, and it isn’t going to stop now. They are more than willing to destroy this country in order to obtain totalitarian control over it.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2009 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

Well, PGG, as you get more abusive you show more and more what you are—and what you don’t know.

Again: Chronology rules.

1) During the first years of the War, Germany made a far better effort not to piss off the United States than the UK did.  Many Americans felt that the British were even more at fault that the Germans were for the War.  Meanwhile, British surface ships were interfering with US maritime trade.

2) In 1916, in a desperate effort to break Britain and France, the German leaders decided to blockade ALL shipping using the U-boats—sinking anything and everything that tried to get to Britain or France.  This is definitionally an Act of War under International Law: Belligerents can’t change status toward Neutrals and Neutrals cannot change status toward Belligerents.  Germany took a calculated risk that they could knock win the War before the USA could mobilize if they could strangle Britain first.

3) The sinking of the Lusitania was in 1915, not 1917{/i] (now who looks like an asshole?) 

It was a British ship and under the Rules of War fair game.  Germany did what it could to placate the US and would have and could have succeeded except for….lifting the restrictions on sub warfare in 1916.

4) The US was divided pretty evenly between Anglophiles and Anglophobes.  There were still Americans alive who had fought in the Civil War who remembered that the UK had tried to help the South split the nation in two.  There were many, many German and Irish descendants with no love for Britain either.  But the President, Woodrow Wilson, was a dedicated Anglophile (he was also a virulent racist).

5) DESPITE Wilson’s predilection, the USA was NEVER an Ally in WWI.  Our status was “Associated Power” because OUR OBJECTIVES IN THE WAR WERE NOT THE SAME AS THE ALLIES!  Got that? The GOAL of the US government was to have a say in the peace and ensure NEITHER Germany NOR France could dominate on the Continent. 

6) With Wilson’s departure from office, Harding, Cooolidge and Hoover strengthened and emphasized this desire for balance of power in Europe, fixing many of the mistakes of Wilson’s screwups at Versailles.

Who gives a shit about the assassination?  It set off an automatic sequence of alliances like a clockwork mechanism that couldn’t be stopped.
Austria declares war on Serbia.
Russia declares war on Austria because it’s allied with Serbia.
Germany is allied with Austria
France is allied with Russia,

Etc, etc, etc.

Your warped and twisted views of history are only eclipsed by your lack of knowledge of it.  YOU haven’t acknowledged either Schuker or Leffler—and I’ve TOLD you what THEIR credentials are….A hell of a lot more respected as scholars than Pat Buchanan.

And I stand by my assertion that even among German scholars Germany’s innocence in starting WWI isn’t assured—it goes back to Franz Fischer in 1961—remember Prof. Fischer?  He agrees with me that the assassination was nothing but an excuse.

And as I rip apart your faulty chronology and the incorrect conclusions you draw from it you will get angrier and angrier and call me more and more names.  I’ve been on Truthdig a long time, longer than you, and been attacked by far smarter and better insulters than you’ll ever be—and they’ve learned not to take me on unless they have all their ducks in a row.  I don’t like to, but I can match poison pens with anyone.

And I STILL say you take the same positions as the Holocaust deniers and nazi sympathizers.  Nothing has changed my mind on that.  It’s not an insult—It’s an assessment.

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By Kesey Seven, June 13, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

Hey Afriend,

This is the first time I’ve ever noticed your posts. I don’t think you’re racist. You don’t notice how every book and newspaper you read in America punctuates quotation marks. I can’t see my own typos. We all got something.  Feel good. We’re all family here. 

But your point about a white male (which I happily am) seems, hmm, to miss the point: “if a white male jurist were to say that he could better adjudicate due to his racial background, that white man would be blasted mercilessly on this site for being a clear racist.” 

Let me tell you a little story. A friend of mine does counseling for people, interviews them, finds out their skills, get them training, helps them get funding for education.  My friend notes latinos straight from their home country generally have little prejudice against us good ol’ white people.  But first generation latinos, those who went to school here, generally are distrustful and sometimes hostile.  Why do you think that is? Think it’s because they’ve been raised in a racist society, degraded, called names, had to fight for their dignity, have been sent to crummy schools where there is more humiliation, dilapidated facilities, crappy food, and overworked teachers?  Yes. That could be it. 

A minority growing up in a racist society will be ... how to say it ... a little prickly at times because they’ve received a lot of pricks from prickly people. It’s why Spike Lee early in his career often seemed to be saying hello with his middle finger.  Spike is a bright, talented guy who undoubtedly put up with a lot of racist crap from the minute he could walk outside his front door. The fact that he learned to extend the yo-yo finger and become a success demonstrates he is talented man of great integrity. 

Or, let me put it another way.  The great American Frederick Douglas, when speaking at a woman’s suffrage gathering (that is, women seeking the right to vote in the 19th century) encouraged the women to “agitate, agitate, agitate!” Was Mr. Douglas a racist for telling the women to piss off the white male estabilishment to get what they wanted? No, he was a man who grew up under a system of slavery, saw that slavery end, and knew the only way to attain rights was to fight for them. He was right. He had spunk. I wish I could’ve met the man even though he might not have been altogether friendly to my white aspirations. 

What I’m saying is, if Sotomayer had grown up in a country absent of racism, her past remarks would have been inappropriate. But she didn’t. She group in a racist country, a brutally racist country, a country that for centuries has regarded non-whites as animals. Cut her some slack. She will have better judgment than a white dude when it come down to certain cases, just as a white dude will sometimes have better judgment than her on other cases.  The deal is we need those different backgrounds, those different voices, those different minds, because right now, we ain’t got it, “my friend.”

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By Xntrk, June 13, 2009 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reading the comments has been similar to reading some of Mailer’s more disjointed diatribes, back when he was heavy into recreational drugs. According to one comment he made in Advertisements for Myself, he thought he had written THE Great American Novel when he wrote Deer Park. It turned out, he was so stoned on cheap Mexican grass [Texas border, 1948] he didn’t know what he was writing… If you doubt me, try reading Deer Park, I still have no idea what it’s about.

And that is what the comments remind me of. What in the Hell are we talking about anyway?

As for Holocaust Museums being created to vilify Germans and sanctify the Jews, at the most that is an interesting theory. But, I’d suggest a trip to Nanking, China for the author, to gain a bit of perspective.

The have a Holocaust Museum there, in memory f the Chines victims of the Rape of Nanking [The one person who managed to save several hundred women and children was the German Ambassador, btw]. He was later disavowed, and recalled, by the Nazi government he worked for. He thought they would be proud of his humanity…

The Nanking Museum is interesting because it starts out with the story of the German Concentration Camps and the atrocities committed there. Then it moves on to the horrors of the Japanese invasion. Very disturbing. It was especially poignant because I was touring it with a group of Japanese students. This was just after the unfriendly exchange about how the Japanese Government has erased the Rape of Nanking from history - along with the other atrocities committed by the Japanese.

Another interesting vignette I witnessed happened at an Engineering firm I worked for in the 70’s. There was an Hungarian Engineer who emigrated in 1956 to escape the Russians, and an Anglo-Saxon Engineer who served as an American 2nd Lieutenant, and helped liberate Buchenwald, or perhaps Dachau.

The Hungarian was talking about how his last memory of his father was him dressing in his officer’s uniform and going off to help the Germans beat the Russians. Jocko went ballistic, and they almost came to blows. It seems the US combat troops had a very low opinion of the Hungarian troops who fought for the Germans and helped run the extermination camps.

Two different stories about the same war. Several different and conflicting views. I am Jewish by the way, raised in a very secular home with a Catholic step-father, on the West Coast. We were raised to hate the Japanese, not the Germans. We even used to spy on the Japanese, hoping to find the radio they used to contact Tojo. Of course, those Japanese were Chinese. All the West Coast Japanese were in Concentration Camps.

Life is strange. Prejudice has a way of biting you on the butt. How many people post vitriolic comments and hate the Jews, Germans, Gooks, Japs, Chinks, Spics, Wops, and Ragheads? Most of that hatred is based on old stories overheard at the dinner table, or Rush’s latest spiel, with no basis in reality!

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By pgg804, June 13, 2009 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Inherit,

I am not a nazi-sympathizer, but you are a an ignorant bigot.

You show it by everything you write and completely ignoring the facts.  The “shot heard round the world” that started WW I was fired by a Serbian terrorist from an allied nation.  You also ignore my comments on Kaufman and Morgenthau.  These are facts that you choose to label as revisionist.  You don’t know German historians and you don’t know German history.

There are German historians that have written about this and don’t go along with your opinions.  German historian Ernst Nolte won the top history prize Germany awards in the year 2000.  He wrote about Kaufman and Chaim Weitzman (I didn’t go into his actions)  and how Hitler reacted to them.  You’ll probably call him a revisionist now too and I know you mean that as an insult.

America’s entry into WW I is also a shameful act on the part of the British and Americans (I know you’ll ignore this too you liar).  Germany had warned people not to board the Luisitania in 1917.  Germany took an ad out in the New York Times telling people not to board the ship.  Britain’s Navy was preventing food from entering Germany to starve the German people and Germany was preventing ships from bringing arms to Britain.  The Germans sank the Luisitania and the Americans claimed Germany attacked an unarmed ship carrying civilians.  The ship was carrying arms.  That is an established fact now.  The cowardly American and British governments used this stunt, they put their own people in harms way and used as a pretext for America to enter the war.

Every time the asshole Inherit reads something he doesn’t like, he ignores it or labels it revisionist.  The British kept the blockade against Germany going after WW I ended,  preventing food from entering for another 6 months to 1 year.  One million Germans died of starvation.  The corporal Hitler was already working on his plans in his head.  Several statesmen from both sides (Hindenburg from Germany and a British statesman whose name fails me now) said after Versailles - this is only a truce, as a result of Versailles we’ll be fighting in 20 years again.  My mothers birthplace, the city of Memel (founded by Germans n the 12th century and was in the national anthem) was given to Lithuania.  Germany and Austria were chopped up and large parts distributed to other countries.

Asshole, why don’t you stick to cowboys and indians because you don’t know European history.  Germany has a holocaust museum in Berlin to memorialize Jewish suffering.  This is intended to educate and make Germany a better country.  Why don’t you work on making the United States a better country instead of being hypocrites and racists.  Turn the Holocaust museum into a memorial to the suffering of Blacks and Indians that you caused.  Don’t be a racist.  Instead acknowledge your own faults.

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By Paracelsus, June 13, 2009 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

@ Kdelphi

Many of the socialisms require a central command of some sort manned with economists, who determine reasonable rates of profit, production outputs and inputs, linear programming. Since the 1930’s as a trend we have endured experts in all fields of study to tell us how to do things. We have all sorts of think tanks, and policy study groups to coordinate and harmonize laws. We have already a vulgar sort of international socialism structured by UN conventions, and free trade treaties. We who are not plutocrats will be more equal in living standards with other developing nations. We have initiatives being advocated for a world currency, and for global regulation of financial markets. The global elites are pushing for a global tax on energy. We have NGO’s pushing for one child policies. In the commonwealth countries there are initiatives to penalize parents who have more than on child. I don’t much like this international capitalism, but I figure you should be happy with it. Why be upset with my looseness of terms?

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By AFriend, June 13, 2009 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

ardee,

You and kdelphi are much alike. In you too I can’t recall a time you have not mangled and buried the natural content of a conversation. You completely missed by point and injected your own interpretation. In other word; you have little capacity for a true and open dialog.

You sow nothing but division and contempt for all opposing points of view.

—-

With that said: Read my posts one last time and go over your reply. I truly want to know if your capable of reading comprehension and analytical thought in answering my question.

“What does Alito’s pride in his heritage have to do with a white male, or Hispanic female, jurist saying he or she could better adjudicate (reach a better conclusion) than some other race of human?”

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By AFriend, June 13, 2009 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi,

I honestly can’t recall a single time you have responded to me without first mangling every meaning and context of my words. I’d be willing to bet a show of hands here would reveal exactly the same.

If your history here is any indication your next response will be something pithy and meaningless. After that you’ll resort to demonizing and, simultaneously, your usual name calling will begin.

How about we cut to the chase and I bid you good day. Not interested.

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By ardee, June 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

AFriend
I do not know if Sotomayor is a racist. I simply don’t know that much about her. BUT, and this cannot honestly be denied, if a white male jurist were to say that he could better adjudicate due to his racial background, that white man would be blasted mercilessly on this site for being a clear racist. He would not be considered for a seat on the Supreme Court.
........................

During his confirmation hearing, Sam Alito proclaimed that he was proud of his immigrant background and the way that had affected his conduct as a Jurist. He was certainly not blasted for that quote, methinks precisely because he is white.
......

I repeat this only because AFriend seemingly has a reading comprehension problem

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2009 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

Diamond: You and pgg know so little about that history it isn’t funny.

France invaded the Ruhr in January of 1923 because the Germans weren’t paying much in reparations.  By the time of the Locarno Pact in 1925 they had left (in 1924) thoroughly whipped because it was a financial disaster.  The US knew this, knew it would be and pulled back to let the French sink themselves (as they did). Yes, I can document it—with original source documents from the State Department archives.  Poincare, the arrogant and pompous French PM, was ousted and Aristide Briand became the Foreign Minister—a talented and brilliant man who was amenable to re-establishing relations with Germany, WHICH WAS A DEMOCRATIC STATE! Hitler didn’t come to power until long after in 1933, and, it was THE DEPRESSION hitting in 1929 that gave Hitler the boost he needed.

Again, the hyper-inflation of 1923 was long, long over with the adoption of the Rentenmark (Land-Mark) replacing the Reichsmark.  The hyper-inflation was artificially created by the Weimar leadership turning on the printing press and ended by turning it back off.  Hitler’s rise was much later.  By the time of the Locarno Pact in 1925 Hitler had been written of as an obscure fanatic who was in jail for treason. 

Chronology is unimpeachable and proves you don’t understand what happened.  You can’t show cause and effect when there are huge gaps with game changing occurrences between the events you site.

As for YOUR assertion PGG, that the Allies started the WWI, that is pure nonsense.  Even among the German scholarly community that position was never held.  ALL they EVERY held was that Germany was not responsible for starting the War and even THAT fell by the wayside back in the mid 70’s—among modern GERMAN scholars.

More and more you prove to me that you are a nazi sympathizer buying into the crap the deniers and Pat Buchanan put out. It’s propaganda, like Ann Coultergeist’s books of lies, not fact.

I know this shit backwards and forwards, but Leffler’s and Schuker’s work is far, far more extensive and thorough.  Both are chaired professors now at the Univ of Virginia.

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By diamond, June 13, 2009 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the wind you’re simply wrong when you say the Treaty of Versailles didn’t cause the Second World War. This treaty forced Germany to pay war reparations greater than it’s gross domestic product and allowed the French to occupy the Ruhr, Germany’s industrial heartland. This left the ordinary people to fight over the scraps (this should certainly be familiar to you under the present economic circumstances in America) and when Wall Street collapsed in 1929 the German government had no choice but to go on printing money and this led to hyper inflation and a situation where to buy a loaf of bread cost a suitcase full of money, a suitcase full of money that was losing value even as you stood in a queue to buy the bread. Can you honestly claim that this disastrous situation didn’t lead the Germans to look for a saviour and a ‘hero’? For someone who promised to fix it? Hitler promised to end unemployment, to throw the French out of the Ruhr and to fix the economy by refusing to pay any more war reparations. All of this was done. In spite of his fine promises the Nazi party never actually won a majority of the vote and it was the right, the conservatives and the rich - who feared Marxist Russia - who actually put Hitler in power. In these kinds of circumstances people also have a tendency to look for someone to blame and Hitler supplied them with an enemy - the Jews. Frightened people are easy to fool - look what happened to America after 9/11. Bush and Cheney also supplied you with an enemy to justify their wish to fight numerous wars and rule the world - the Muslims. While you all obsess over von Brunn and wallow in fear, Bush and Cheney are laughing at you in their mansions, having gotten away with murder. von Brunn is a symptom but Cheney and the neo cons are the disease.

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By pgg804, June 13, 2009 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

My final comment:

Inherit:  Regarding WW I you said ‘Sun-Tsu argued that when you defeat an enemy you must either completely destroy that nation or completely re-hab it’.

The allied countries started WW I when they supported a Serbian terrorist that murdered the heir to the Austrian throne Archduke Ferdinand and his wife.  They needed rehabilitation.

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By pgg804, June 13, 2009 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, Outraged:

You are hypocrites and bigots.  You focus on the faults of others and you ignore the atrocities that your country perpetrated.  If the Germans were the hypocrites that Americans are, they would build a memorial to the blacks and Indians the Americans massacred.

You both know very little about the war and when talking to someone whose family that went thru it, you tell that person that you’re the expert.  Typical ignorant, Americans or should I say “ugly Americans”.  That is the proper term.

I’m thru here.  You’re both insulting and bigoted.

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By Clash, June 13, 2009 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

The police state is designed to protect the property of the hierarchy of this culture, and was never intended to protect individual rights.

It is this same culture that that allows judges to be elected and then then imprison young people in the privatized prisons of their campaign contributors.

Racism has been spread throughout civilization’s history by the institutions of policy and mysticism, that would control the “one way to live”. This training in it’s various forms is a deep seated part of this culture, used to divide the population that is being controlled.

Hate is also instilled by the dominant culture, by its very existence, it allows the abuse of its own children as well as children of others. This culture as well as its off shoots allows the abuse of women, to a degree to which they must defend themselves by taking violent actions against their abusers, and in countries other than the united states , women are murdered by the thousands, some find the abuse so bad that they would rather burn themselves to death than face their abusers. It creates the institutions for the abuse of whole populations through predation and war. The abuses to the natural world are to many to count, and continue relentlessly. Those with the expectation that random acts of violence are beyond people filled with the hate instilled from birth by the dominant culture are living in some other make believe world.

It is this culture of make believe that has created the system by which these individuals and groups that you rail for and against, can exist.

There is more than one right way to live.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 13, 2009 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment

pgg804, June 13 at 12:26 pm #

Inherit the Wind:

I’m not going to answer your question.  I’m not going to take your litmus test.  You are not a scholar,  ...  There are historians and educated people that have doubts about part of what is said about the holocaust. 
*********************************

I’m more of a historian than YOU’LL ever be, as we shall see below.  NO legitimate historian questions whether or not the Holocaust occurred. None.

IF you had read my riposte about Hilberg, he pointed out that masses of data to get through. Therefore discrepancies between analyses are inevitable AND NORMAL!

************************************
The holocaust museum and the every day drilling it into peoples heads is to demonize Germans and create sympathy for Jews.  The Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein has written how that sympathy is used politically.  Read “The Holocaust Industry”.
***************************************

That’s YOUR interpretation, and Finkelstein has his own biased axe to grind. I am NOT aware of ANY Holocaust scholar who demonizes Germany rather than the Nazis.

**********************************
Everything I said in my previous post was true.  Idiots like Outraged have no idea what led to WW II.  The Germans had real reasons to complain.  What the allies did to them in 1919 and afterwards put Hitler in power.  I would suggest you read Patrick Buchanan’s “Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War” on how the war started.
***********************************

And I would suggest you avoid quoting a man who has ADMITTED his anti-semitism, who spoke in so-called “code” in his 2000 campaign and even ACKNOWLEDGED that the votes had to have been fixed in Florida because he got 10x what he expected in certain heavily Jewish areas—HE didn’t believe it was legit.  Buchanan is an entertainer and a speech writer, NOT a scholar and certainly not a historian.

Your “history” and his avoids dealing with the Locarno Pact, as system of treaties and non-aggression pacts that a) brought Germany back into the so-called Community of Nations;  b) brought Germany into the League of Nation and c) changed and restructured the debts and reparations to make them reasonable.  The US pressured France heavily to accept this pact(See Melvyn Paul Leffler, “The Elusive Quest”), relations between our two nations improved, and Gustav Stresemann was nick-named “The Bismarck of the Defeat”.  The amount of lies perpetrated by the extremists in Germany in the era pre-dated Hitler and much was due to Hindenburg’s and Lundendorff’s cowardly refusal to sign the Armistice, advising the newly elected officials that is was THEIR duty, then blaming them afterward.

WWII was not simply “caused” by the terrible Treaty of Versailles.  Much was fixed at Locarno, but the racists USED the EXCUSE of Versailles combined with the “Stabbed in the Back” lie.

Sun-Tsu argued that when you defeat an enemy you must either completely destroy that nation or completely re-hab it.  Versailles did neither, taking a middle ground.  Marshall was far wiser after WWII.

You don’t know what you are talking about, you are clearly biased towards the holocaust deniers, and have NO idea what REALLY lead to WWII.  Yes, Dresden was a horror—you think Americans don’t know?  Slaughter-House Five, by Kurt Vonnegut, centers on the destruction of Dresden.  But NOTHING the Allies did compares to the systematic destruction of 12 million lives, including 6 million Jews.

If you want to learn about the financial manipulations by the US to gain control of the international banking system, the best scholar on that is Stephen Schuker, and his seminal work on it:
“The End of French Predominance in Europe: The Financial Crisis of 1924 and the Adoption of the Dawes Plan.”

But you are right that I’m no scholar. I left that world 25-30 years ago.

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By Outraged, June 13, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

BTW, pgg804

Your comment:  “Inherit and Outraged, you should “get over yourselves”.  Americans build a memorial to the suffering of Jews that occurred thousands of miles away from your shores, but you ignore the hundreds of years of slavery, rape and murder you inflicted on African Americans and the genocide you committed against the American Indian in your own country.  Stop being such hypocrites.

Another revisionist blathering.  Curious pgg804….how many native peoples have the Europeans killed throughout their history?  Don’t point your bloody finger at me.  I do not hate the innocent people of the world, that includes those of my own country. I do, however…have little stomach for those who endorse hate-filled ideologies and invent supposed victimhood for the perpetrators/degenerates that DO.

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By KDelphi, June 13, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

Paracelsus—I believe in Intl Socialism. That would preclude “nationalism”..I’m sure that there are people who think that LIbertarianism (supporters of Ron Paul) are partly to blame for what happened in nY—I dont think that that is true, even if the guy was a supporter of Paul’s. I wish that you would have the same courtesy.

There are also Anarcho-Libertarians, (on the rise) Socialist Libertarians and all sorts of new breeds of Libertarian. (Anarcho—Industrialism??)That doesnt mean that people who support Ron Paul are “socialists” in any way. There will always be fringes. I dont believe that it is accurate to blame what happened in NY on “socialists” The man was not a Socialist.

Scandanavia is not nearly as homogeneuous as it used to be, although people still say it.

I do believe in cooperation of groups and I dont believe in “walking on coals”. I believe that people are social animals and that it is a natural state. I am not much for religion and I think that things like schooling, which are for the commmon good, should have costs borne by all.

I am not interested in National Socialist fringe groups nor National Socialism. National Socialism is something that is not widespread, unless you count fringe groups I dont think that you can say that about Socialism. Comparing the two just makes you sound extremist.

I just found this from yesterday—I mustve just hit “preview”—put it in that context. Thanks

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By Outraged, June 13, 2009 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

Re: pgg804

Your comment:  “Idiots like Outraged have no idea what led to WW II.”

If you are referring to the fact that I’ve read only one REVISIONIST book, then guilty as charged.  I do know what lead to the rise of fascism in Germany, that is why I would out any fascist elements here in America in a heartbeat.

Hitler and his ilk rose to power because of the FINANCING they received from CROOKED AMERICAN BUSINESSMEN (yes…I know they like to be called sympathizers but I would rather be accurate).  Sure there would have been some fringe facists in Germany.  However, without the financing they would’ve remained, just that…... fringe rightwing, racist, thugs….. much like yourselves.

I suppose I should be fair and acknowledge that ALL modern facists are also revisionists.  I just call them liars, it’s easier.

Gee…. I hope you’re not posting from your work computer….  Oh Janet…...Homeland Security…..!!!!!!

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By KDelphi, June 13, 2009 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

Consider the absurdity of this mindset “Everyone is a totalitarian, but me, and possibly, those who agree with me”

also this: “you are not a scholar”..oh, brother.                                                                  HOw about “skinheads LABELLED as racists”...aw, c’mon. That is how they define themselves…

pgg804—Why do you only show up at sites that are about guns and lone wolves and such?

AFriend—“What does Alito’s pride in his heritage have to do with a white male, or Hispanic female, jurist saying he or she could better adjudicate (reach a better conclusion) than some other race of human?”

You call what he said “pride in his heritage” because you are a white male who doesnt see the difference, of being a minority in the uS. And it wasnt just race, it was also about gender.

Soon, you will.
I am not crazy about Sotomayor, she seems very middle of the road to me, and most who have studied her cases..but, the main reason that Bush nominated both Alito and Roberts , is because they are anti-choice. Thats just the simple fact of it. Meat for his base.

Sotomayor is only a slight improvement.

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By Outraged, June 13, 2009 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

“Wow!! I just did nothing more than voice an opinion and you want to sic the government on me! Then you have somehow conflated me with “lone wolves”. Amazing. I bet you were so very concerned about the illegal detentions, and tortures of those Moslem men, and yet you would want to expose me to the same nasty machine. Consider this a thought experiment. Consider that I was baiting this website to see if the “liberals” have gone over to the same corruption that the Neo-cons had partaken. You are asking that the government spy and monitor me, for my WORDS!!! Disgusting.”

Let’s try a different “thought experiment”.  Imagine that people who attempt to validate SKINHEADS as victims are Nazis.  Guess what everyone, Mr SKINHEAD was only maybe “baiting liberals” because supposedly, according to Mr. SKINHEAD, liberals are like neocons…..  Why the backtracking Paracelsus, tell us how you feel. 

I’ll make this real simply for you, Jackpine and pgg804:

Fascism is the enemy of Democracy.  America is a democracy.  Therefore fascists are enemies of the state.  I am an American.  Therefore, yes I would out a facsist in a heartbeat.  Kapeesh

HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!......JANET NAPOLITANO…..Oh…JANET!!!!, we have a couple of “live” ones for ya’.  Check out their ISP’s.  Yep, there aren’t any “lone wolves”.....

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By pgg804, June 13, 2009 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind:

I’m not going to answer your question.  I’m not going to take your litmus test.  You are not a scholar,  and others like Outraged on here sound like idiots calling people NAZIS because of ignorance.  There are historians and educated people that have doubts about part of what is said about the holocaust.  The holocaust museum and the every day drilling it into peoples heads is to demonize Germans and create sympathy for Jews.  The Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein has written how that sympathy is used politically.  Read “The Holocaust Industry”.

Everything I said in my previous post was true.  Idiots like Outraged have no idea what led to WW II.  The Germans had real reasons to complain.  What the allies did to them in 1919 and afterwards put Hitler in power.  I would suggest you read Patrick Buchanan’s “Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War” on how the war started. 

Americans and others like to focus on the crimes of the NAZIS and ignore the crimes they committed.  In 1941 the Jewish American Theodore Kaufman wrote the book “Germany Must Perish!” in which he laid out his plan for the sterilization of the German people.  He suggested a team of thousands of doctors working around the clock and estimated they could be done with the German men in a few months.  The women would be next.  This was before the atrocities against Jews really got going.  Hitler was aware of this book and told the German people what the Jewish American wrote and what they were planning.  The book got a good review in TIME Magazine at the time.  You can still buy the book on Amazon.com.

Henry Morgenthau, the Jewish secretary of state in the US during the war, put forth the “Morgenthau Plan” which would have stripped Germany of all industry.  All industry and machinery would be shipped to other countries.  Germany would be made into a 100% agrarian country.  Estimates are 10 million Germans would have died asa result of this.  Sitting next to Churchill at a meeting he reluctantly got Churchill to agree to this. 

Fortunately for the Germans, it never went into effect because of resistance by some Americans and Americans felt they might need the Germans in anticipation of the “cold war”. 

In February 1945, three months before WW II ended, British and American forces attacked the German city of Dresden.  An estimated 135,000 people died in two days of bombing that burned the city to the ground.  While examining “Operation Thunderclap”, American President Roosevelt declared the German people might have to be “castrated” to make them an extinct people.  He was picking up on Kaufman’s idea.  The two days of bombing was the biggest atrocity of the war.  This was a holocaust concentrated into 2 days. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDauzYrBVJE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49EwgusnL4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsvnKjHMgwE&feature=related

Hatred of Germans was a strong as the hatred of the Jews.  But the hatred of Germans continues today.

Inherit and Outraged, you should “get over yourselves”.  Americans build a memorial to the suffering of Jews that occurred thousands of miles away from your shores, but you ignore the hundreds of years of slavery, rape and murder you inflicted on African Americans and the genocide you committed against the American Indian in your own country.  Stop being such hypocrites.

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By AFriend, June 13, 2009 at 9:06 am Link to this comment

ardee,

“During his confirmation hearing, Sam Alito proclaimed that he was proud of his immigrant background and the way that had affected his conduct as a Jurist. He was certainly not blasted for that quote, methinks precisely because he is white”.

—-

What does Alito’s pride in his heritage have to do with a white male, or Hispanic female, jurist saying he or she could better adjudicate (reach a better conclusion) than some other race of human?

I’m also curious; why must you change the context when making your point? One either believes in what they state or they do not. Changing the entire context makes it appear as though you don’t believe in what you write. It makes it appear as though the act of arguing is your true interest. Believing in what you write, or so it appears, seems secondary.

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G.Anderson's avatar

By G.Anderson, June 13, 2009 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Jerking off anger never makes it go away. It just lowers the water table a little bit until it rises again for the next time.

Angry people only seek to make their anger seem reasonable, to that effect the seek reasons to justify their actions. Once that happens, they will rage, and rage to ever increasing depths, but remain unconscious of their own deep seated motives.

Anger and hate of this kind, is just as pathological as schizophrenia. Since Schizophrenia cannot be reasoned away, why do people believe that hatred can be too?

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By KDelphi, June 13, 2009 at 8:19 am Link to this comment

Paracelsus—(I had answered your post, but, it is not here—dont know if its me or TD) I had agreed with SOME of what you say,(and disagree with alot of it)on Libertarianism (or whatever you would call your views), against being called Lone Wolf, but it is the same as someone feels when they hear their own view (in my case, a form of Democratic Socialism—although you identify it as Marxism or Stalinism), charactierized, or, put im the same place, as Nazis or Stalinists.

If you cant take it, you shouldnt dish it out.

In my post I had said that I didnt think, for most supporters, that EITHER was true. But, you still chose to answer with a bunch of Cold War era rhetoric about Hitler and Stalin. Time marches on. This generation dont see it that way any more than they see US/UK relations in terms of the ‘Merkin Revolution.

And, speaking of “youth”

“..Youth of Erope radicalized by open borders..?” I thought that Dem Socialsm only worked there becuse it was so nationalistic and homogeneous?

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By Paracelsus, June 13, 2009 at 5:41 am Link to this comment

JANET NAPOLITANO…..Oh…JANET!!!!, we have a couple of “live” ones for ya’.  Check out their ISP’s.  Yep, there aren’t any “lone wolves”.....

Wow!! I just did nothing more than voice an opinion and you want to sic the government on me! Then you have somehow conflated me with “lone wolves”. Amazing. I bet you were so very concerned about the illegal detentions, and tortures of those Moslem men, and yet you would want to expose me to the same nasty machine. Consider this a thought experiment. Consider that I was baiting this website to see if the “liberals” have gone over to the same corruption that the Neo-cons had partaken. You are asking that the government spy and monitor me, for my WORDS!!! Disgusting.

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By ardee, June 13, 2009 at 5:41 am Link to this comment

AFriend
I do not know if Sotomayor is a racist. I simply don’t know that much about her. BUT, and this cannot honestly be denied, if a white male jurist were to say that he could better adjudicate due to his racial background, that white man would be blasted mercilessly on this site for being a clear racist. He would not be considered for a seat on the Supreme Court.
........................

During his confirmation hearing, Sam Alito proclaimed that he was proud of his immigrant background and the way that had affected his conduct as a Jurist. He was certainly not blasted for that quote, methinks precisely because he is white.

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By Paracelsus, June 13, 2009 at 5:35 am Link to this comment

@ Outraged

Good try, now try again.  The Feds are looking for ya’.  Get your head out from where the sun don’t shine and FACE IT, YOU are a fringe NAZI.  Buck up!  Are you not proud?  Why do you speak “around an issue” when it is so readily apparent you ENDORSE it?

What I see are people angered by globalization, they are resorting to these cut out and put on organizations. They aren’t finding ideal ways to voice opposition to globalization by joining organizations with heavy historical baggage attached to them. Western Europe is being de-industrialized and flooded with migrant labor. I do not endorse the historical roots of these organizations, but I see and understand why they are becoming popular. I do not endorse roundups and and liquidations of ethnic groups. What I do endorse is setting limits and looking out for one’s best national interests. I wish there were alternatives. I wonder how many of these blood and soil organizations are organically formed, or are they formed from outside. The native youth of Europe are being radicalized by open borders, and outsourcing. You don’t see that, and you wish to accuse of being a closet fascist. You seek to give blanket condemnations of me and the misguided youth who seek radical solutions. Tell me, why aren’t the traditional establishment parties of these nations doing anything to stop the wrecking of Western living standards? Doesn’t it seem somehow fascist and authoritarian to threaten that the Feds are after me? It is you who has revealed your ugly totalitarianism, not I.

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By jackpine savage, June 13, 2009 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

The funniest thing about America is how one group will spend eight years talking about how our freedoms are being curtailed, and then turn around and cheer for the feds curtailing freedom.

It happens with both sides (eg. “Obama building FEMA detention camps for his fascist plans” or “Let’s round up all the right wing extremists.”)

Correct me if i’m wrong, but i was under the impression that we all have the freedom to think and say whatever we want to think and say. We don’t have the right to act on those feelings violently…nor should we.

It appears that we’re all statists so long as we agree with what the state is doing, eh?

Should the president be able to wiretap without a warrant to rid the nation of racists, anti-Semites and neo-Nazis?

I got a particular chuckle out of Outraged’s threat to inform on other posters…how very Soviet.

America runs on fear and hate; we’d all be lost without them.

P.S. American and British troops committed plenty of rapes in Western Europe during WWII. Thousands of them were documented (how many were not is not quantifiable). Of course, black soldiers got most of the prosecutions in a war we were fighting for freedom and against racism.

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