godistwaddle, June 7 at 11:02 am #

I stand second to none, by the way, in my derision of the intelligence and education of the average Ameritard, but I am hopeful.
*********************************************

This may be one of the stupidest and morally bankrupt statements I’ve read here.  If someone yells “DUCK!” are you the idiot who has to stick his head up to “ascertain the facts” and not only get his head knocked off, but puts others at risk by doing so?

When I worked construction if someone yelled “Heads!” or “Heads Up!” you covered your head and tried to get AWAY from the sound without checking to see what was falling.

It’s a ALARM WARNING!

In military planes, if the pilot (or copilot) yells “Eject! Eject! Eject!” other members of the crew don’t wait to ascertain the situation but will have yanked THEIR ejection cables before he gets to the third “Eject!”

As high up as the US Supreme Court that SPECIFIC example, of crying “fire!” in a crowded theater where there is no fire, has held up as OUTSIDE the realm of free speech. 

And I’m perfectly OK with that.

I’ve always thought that upon hearing “FIRE!” yelled in a crowded theater, people should ascertain the facts, not stampede, bellowing, like cattle.  One disparages the intelligence of humans by claiming they shouldn’t be subjected to hateful or inciteful free speech because they can’t think for themselves.

I stand second to none, by the way, in my derision of the intelligence and education of the average Ameritard, but I am hopeful.

@ AWM

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=57850727

It’s nothing. I enjoy hearing Connie speak.

Conservatism is terrorism.
Simple as that.

Thanx Paracelsus,I hadn’t heard of either so I did a little research and am impressed I will definitely make my friends and cohorts aware of their exsistance We must step up the fight against the corporatocracy for our childrens sake If not then we will have failed them

A lot of good “thinking” points, photoshock. “...we must condemn loudly and clearly those voices that stand against the freedom that we, the people hold so dear.”

I think I heard Paul Harvey many years ago state that IN AMERICA WE DO NOT HAVE FREEDOM SO WE CAN DO WHAT WE WANT TO DO… WE HAVE FREEDOM SO WE CAN DO AS WE OUGHT TO DO.

I guess the trick is to decide one from the other… and just who gets to decide one from the other.

There are a whole lot of things I may want to do or say that many might think I really shouldn’t but if I’m not bothering anyone else with my actions, as foolhardy as they might be, why should I not have the freedom to do them? Perhaps the key is “not bothering anyone else.” But that won’t work… there are days when almost everything anyone does bothers me and I’m sure vice versa.

All I know is that to get out within public view or hearing to deliberately PROMOTE, ENCOURAGE, SUPPORT actions or words that are clearly intended to hurt, denigrate, belittle, insult or otherwise damage anyone else’s opportunity to enjoy FREEDOM, America style, SHOULD BE OUTLAWED.

It’s tough enough to gather millions of disparate human beings together in a spirit of cooperation without a bunch of yahoos doing everything they can to tear the fabric of society to shreds by airing their ignorance, bigotry and small-minded hatred.

I have many relatives living in Canada, and they disagree with the way their system of laws are enacted and enforced. These people are good and honest, hardworking and now, stand firmly against the intervention of government into the ‘public discourse.’
What America does not need, and should not have is the H.R. 1955! The Homegrown Terrorism and Radicalization Act! Brought to one and all by Rep. Jane Harmon, (D) Cal.  How could the idea of speaking ones mind become illegal? Just read the whole of the law as written.
We the people, must stand firmly against the wave of hate speech and hate actions, we must condemn loudly and clearly those voices that stand against the freedom that we, the people hold so dear.
If we do not, then, there will be no one left, who can speak their minds because of the corporatocracy, and their minions such as Rupert Murdoch and others who control the ‘public’s airwaves!’
One need only look at the decline of newspapers and the lack of local radio stations to see the corporate
interests take over of the public’s right to control the airwaves.
But enough of the conspiracy theory, we turn to the need for local and legal means of countering the hate
and hate-mongers that have taken over the radio and television. Nothing on television, except a few channels means anything today, pure twaddle! The radio is either playing hate speech at its purest or slowly but surely, deadening the populaces means of thinking for themselves. Our schools are nothing but indoctrination centers that do not teach critical thinking skills and all of the means of learning are mostly gone. What do we do to counter this slow but sure, tilt to authoritarian and fascistic government?
Educate and teach our children, to think for themselves and teach them to ‘Question Authority!!’
How do we the adults do this? By starting schools and places of worship of the ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  That’s right teach the Constitution and Bill of Rights to our children on Friday afternoon after their ‘school’ and teach them everyday that they are the government, not the ‘politicrats’ that have infected our rights to govern ourselves as we see fit.

@ AWM

But the worst thing about criminalizing speech is that it drives it underground making it harder to expose it for the nonsense that it is. The best way to defeat hate speech is to hold it open to the light of day.If you don’t know what they are saying how can you properly counter them.

I agree with you. How do Canadian gun control laws affect the subjects of Canada? Have you heard of Connie Fogel? What do you think of the Canadian Action Party?

By Paracelsus, June 4 at 11:45 am #

Should Congress pass a hate speech code as exists in Europe and Canada?\
———————————————————————————-
As a Canadian who has seen hate speech laws in action I hope America doesn’t make the same mistake. They are too easily misused to criminalize unpopular speech. But the worst thing about criminalizing speech is that it drives it underground making it harder to expose it for the nonsense that it is. The best way to defeat hate speech is to hold it open to the light of day.If you don’t know what they are saying how can you properly counter them

There is tragically, a strong parallel between the extreme religious right anti-abortionists and the Taliban.

Strangely enough, if you look at the ideology of both groups, the only difference is in the religion (Islam vs. Christianity). Both groups are relatively and electively uneducated about real life issues that determine a woman’s wish to choose, both groups are devoutly religious, both want political control over women’s bodies and both believe that violence is justified in achieving these ends.

The Battle of Athens, Tennessee

These Americans had a choice. Their state’s Constitution—Article 1, Section 26—recorded their right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Few “gun control” laws had been enacted.

http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm

This was a nice read. I suppose such an action would be called terrorism these days.

1) There’s just as much hate radio in “liberal” New York City.
2) There’s lots of decent people in The South who periodically throw these right-wing ideologues out on their asses.

Alright, good enough.

“Oh my goodness, the passion and rhetoric is soaring to new levels tonight. This calls for a higher stump and a bigger bonfire, wow, throw on some more logs and let it fly! Great balls of fire, I am getting in the mood.”—Hawkeye

Amazing!  That’s exactly was Jesus said when he spoke to me last night, right after I took to ball gag out of his mouth.

Paracelus:
If you want to go on tangents have fun.  Of course you IGNORE my two points:

1) There’s just as much hate radio in “liberal” New York City.
2) There’s lots of decent people in The South who periodically throw these right-wing ideologues out on their asses.

As for the rest, it’s not worth arguing with you, because they aren’t relevant to these two points.

godistwaddle wrote: “I’m a free speech absolutist, and I’ve said some pretty hateful things about Limbaugh, O’Reilly, George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and other subhumans.  The answer to hate speech is more speech.”

I disagree. In spite of the interpretation of the First Amendment that some might imply there is no place in a civilized society for the “absolute” right to say “some pretty hateful things.”

Shouting “FIRE” in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is but one example of speech used as a tool to INCITE A RIOT or other disturbance, upset or offense.

The venom broadcast by those mentioned in this article and in the comments is the product of some very twisted minds who, as the title states, are clearly “Domestic Terrorists.” They should be dealt with as such. Their contribution to American society is ONLY negative - nothing good comes from it.

No, the answer to “hate speech” is NOT “more speech,” at least not UNBRIDLED speech uttered with the express purpose of putting someone else down. Unmanaged speech as with unmanaged capitalism (recent evidence enough for you?) leads to disaster. How many times does this FACT have to be demonstrated before it sinks in?

Of course intelligent debate and dissent need to be guaranteed as a “right.” But as with the right to own a knife that doesn’t include the right to stick it into whomever you wish.

@ Hawkeye

Oh my goodness, the passion and rhetoric is soaring to new levels tonight. This calls for a higher stump and a bigger bonfire, wow, throw on some more logs and let it fly! Great balls of fire, I am getting in the mood.

I find it funny that Edwards comes from the pig sty state, and yet SC gets all this derision. On top of that, Edwards is well connected with the Bildebergers. By their fruit, ye shall know them. As to prejudice, I heard the n-word spoken by whites more often in Massachusetts than I ever heard in Georgia. I would like to know the call letters of those hate radio stations in the South. I am not saying it is not true; I just want to see for myself.

REF: Paracelsus

Oh my goodness, the passion and rhetoric is soaring to new levels tonight. This calls for a higher stump and a bigger bonfire, wow, throw on some more logs and let it fly! Great balls of fire, I am getting in the mood.

Al Gore was Senator from Tennessee.

Gore Sr. was a good man on the whole. Gore, Jr is a real lout. Sen. Gore Sr., Sen. Estes Kefauver, and Sen. Lyndon Johnson refused to sign the Southern Manifesto in 1956. Gore Sr. had turned early against the Vietnam War. He was voted out ‘70, a victim of the Repub. Southern Strategy.

I cannot forget how Gore, Jr. turned is back on a mother, whose son was the victim of a non-consensual radiation experiment sponsored by the government.

Now, South Carolina is another story.  Fritz Hollings was probably the last Democrat that will be elected state-wide for the next 50 years…..But, SC has a history of racism and rejecting America and was the FIRST state to secede in 1861—the state where treason was born.  There aren’t yet enough good people there to change it.

South Carolina also has a history of rejecting Smithfield farms. North Carolina has Mr. Luter’s pig manure all over it. The people of South Carolina were smart enough to raise a stink about Luter. So South Carolina is largely free from the manure problem suffered by other states. Sometimes it pays to be contrary.

Folktruther, June 4 at 8:17 pm #

I didn’t know, Big B, that the airwaves in the south were that saturated with venom. It explains a lot.
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It’s amazing that on some issues FT and I can be so close. 

But here’s something: Surprised that there’s radical right-wing hate radio in the South?  Why? It’s all over AM radio in New York City, which broadcasts to Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut and New Jersey.  Same guys, though some has NY accents and not Southern drawls.

But the funny thing is, in states like North Carolina, there’s enough sensible people to occasionally kick out the Jesse Helms wannabes. Remember: John Edwards was Senator from NC, and Elizabeth Dole lost her re-election campaign there.  Al Gore was Senator from Tennessee…Lots of folks down there know racist BS from reality.

Now, South Carolina is another story.  Fritz Hollings was probably the last Democrat that will be elected state-wide for the next 50 years…..But, SC has a history of racism and rejecting America and was the FIRST state to secede in 1861—the state where treason was born.  There aren’t yet enough good people there to change it.

Its not only the airwaves in the are South saturated with venom, has anyone checked out FreeRepublic (Fresno, CA) or Topix (Palo Alto, CA) comments sections??

They are FULL of hate and overt racism, and no, I do not think you can protect all hate-speech under the banner of “Free Speech”,

not if you want to stop the spread of Fascism which thrives on Hatred, hatred of liberalism and progressive social change.

Domino’s Pizza Anyone?

Though Monaghan is also a substantial funder of the anti-choice movement, most of his antichoice giving is from personal funds not funnelled through the foundation (The only antichoice group listed among the foundation’s 1990-92 grant recipients in Feminists for Life). As of
1989, he acknowledged having given $60,000 to the Michigan Committee to End Tax Funded Abortion. The National Organization for Women and other
women’s groups contended that his actual antichoice giving totalled at least $500,000 in the 1980s, including sizable donations to Randall
Terry’s Operation Rescue.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/domino.htm

I wish I knew more about the funding of these extreme organizations. It seems that many of them get cash without much in the way of documentation.

The exact donors supporting the right-to-life committee’s activities are unknown. With an annual income of approximately $15 million in 2001, according to the Better Business Bureau Wise Giving Alliance, the committee is believed to receive substantial contributions from the Republican Party and related committees. The relationship was made clear in an affidavit filed in federal court by its executive director, David N. O’Steen, in October 2002. The committee “has received donations from political parties or committees,” he said. Although he does not state which party, 98 percent of those supported by the National Right to Life Committee are Republican.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1259/context/archive

Whenever there’s a lot of secrecy about, it leaves open the possibility of provoked events in a strategy of tension. There has been over the years a strategy of low intensity conflict, which has had a corrosive effect on civil liberties. The drug war, the terrorism war, the anti-hate group war, the culture war, the war between the sexes- these wars are good for stoking conflict. Government comes in to rescue us from the crisis. The antipodes act as supports to the keystone in the archway. This keystone supports tyranny.

To one and all, as a free speech advocate, I stand firmly with the rights of those of the Far Right Wing Nuts, who, are about nothing more than the venomous speech that has over the decades destroyed the very foundation of respect and tolerance that we had in America.
The First Amendment is inviolate, it cannot and should not be changed or altered in any way to contain those for whom, the ideals of tolerance and respect are anathema. Bill O’Lielly, The tub of lard, El-Rushbo and Insane Hannity, are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to hate speech spouted by the Far Right Wing Nuts of the Grand Orgy Party.
One needs listen to G.Gordon Liddy, Michael Savage and others, to know the true venom that is spewed by the Far Right.
But there is one thing that will change the tune of those who are Far Right Wing Nuts, when the economy tanks and so many Americans are out of work because all the jobs have gone overseas to line the pockets of the ‘Corportocracy!’
Yes, the ruling class will always think of themselves
first and foremost and we who are the proles, will pay the price for the greed and deception of those who are the wealthiest. Men like El-Rushbo, and others will always place themselves at the head of the line because they are the privileged and few.
What is necessary and needed is an awakening, a new way of looking at the political scene. Not the one party system that is alive and well today. But viable and reasonable men and women, who, will make a
difference in the public discourse. We can and will take back the airwaves, from the corporate economy.
Support local newspapers, listen to only local shows,
and most of all listen to and read alternative media.
This will change the attitude of the ‘corporate masters,’ they will eventually bend to the will of the people when the people are united and stand firm against the corporate twaddle that is our airwaves today.

Yeah, Virgina, Inherit has laid it out.  Some abortion groups are lynch mobs and are encouraged by the ruling class for the same reason racist mobs were.  Inspiring terrorism is not free speech, and the real question is not hate but violence.  If speech inspires violence it should be outlawed.

But that is differnt from the Hate laws of Europe, which put people in prison for stating dissident or absurd views about the Holocaust, an historical event. That is just Zionist censorship.

But law, like the mass media, is in the hands of the power structure, which is preying on a disunited and immobilzed population, especially the vulnerable and powerless.

I didn’t know, Big B, that the airwaves in the south were that saturated with venom. It explains a lot.

Big B explained: “If you think I am exaggerating, just take a long drive through Tennessee or Alabama and turn on the radio, and drive under the speed limit, and for god’s sake don’t be black(or mexican, or jewish, you get the picture)”

I’m your typical WASP. I remember driving through both Tennessee and Alabama several decades ago. Even with the briefest of stops to refuel I felt an undefinable “strangeness” in those few I met.

What do you think the people of this area get from such insular thinking and behavior? They must get radio and TV from “outside.” Don’t they realize that what they’re being fed in their schools and churches doesn’t square with truth or the view of the rest of the world?

I keep forgetting that the human brain is so easily infiltrated, infected and perverted by “group think.” In those tiny backwoods communities it must be nearly impossible to think for yourself and to speak against community values or views. It’s very sad.

Perhaps the USA is broken into TOO MANY states. Maybe they should amalgamate into, say, TEN. Canada has 10 provinces - each with a rather distinctive “culture” but all are aware they’re part of a whole and must compromise and accommodate differences. There’s far less of an “us” against “them” attitude and much more of a spirit of cooperation. Sure, some parts of every province are conservative and “churchy” but, for some reason, the unwritten rule is to tolerate and/or even enjoy those with other philosophies of life.

You won’t hear any “hate speak” on the airwaves in Canada and that’s not just because it’s completely illegal to promote hatred or intolerance toward any race, color, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. It’s because we maintain a certain RESPECT for the individual (at least in rural areas - I can’t speak for the madness that infects the larger cities).

I’m particularly astonished at the vitriol spewed toward President Obama. I think some Americans, in spite of all their “smarts,” are completely blind to the incredible gift they’ve been given in this man. Oh sure, he ain’t perfect. Who is? But he’s done more to restore goodwill for the USA and to foster peace in the rest of the world in a few short months in office than the past 3 or 4 Presidents combined (and that’s in spite of the economic hot potato that he was handed on Day One!)

I’m a free speech absolutist, and I’ve said some pretty hateful things about Limbaugh, O’Reilly, George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and other subhumans.  The answer to hate speech is more speech.

I’m surely not the only one who believes that it’s time to clean house at the so-called Federal Bureau of Investigation. I suggest they begin in Wichita, Kansas.

Exactly, ITW, this is how the Fascists destroy Democracy.

Hate-speech is an integral part of the process, to break down values in the populace and hate-speech is EVERYWHERE, thanks to right-wing radio and the Internet.

I agree that the Left needs to go on the offensive, but certainly not with violence, only with getting the Truth out there.

What needs to happen is clear:  left-wing nutjobs need to go on the offensive.  If Christian wingnuts violently attack proponents of choice, then nutjobs should counter by infiltrating wingnut churches and slipping LSD into the pastors’ whiskey*.

*In case of Ted Haggard, slip LSD into meth or mix with dildo lube.

Nazis do NOT moderate their speech.  BTW, Limbaugh never never looked that good.  He now looks like Herman Goering, especially when dressed entirely in black, as he was at the recent Nuremberg Rally.

@ Conason

When the Department of Homeland Security recently released a report on the potential rise of violent right-wing extremism rooted in economic distress, many observers, especially on the right, mocked that document. But whatever its intrinsic value, the report drew attention to an enduring problem.

The DHS report included such people as veterans and immigration restrictionists. It was very broad in its accusations. It is a logical fallacy to impugn criticism of a document by pointing out who impugned it. I would rather look at the document itself:

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly anti-government, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

There are plenty of anti-government types all across the political spectrum. What I see is that depending upon the administration in office there will be a jihad against that season’s unpopular enemy of the state. It really doesn’t matter whether it is Democrat or Republican as in any case there will be a new enemy of the state to war against. The Bill of Rights is just a GD piece of paper.

Should Congress pass a hate speech code as exists in Europe and Canada?

Joe wrote:

“When the Department of Homeland Security recently released a report on the potential rise of violent right-wing extremism rooted in economic distress, many observers, especially on the right, mocked that document. But whatever its intrinsic value, the report drew attention to an enduring problem.”

Oh, so true.  The people who mocked and whined the loudest were the very people who make a living off of professional hate-mongering. 

The solution to this endless stream of bullshit from the radical right USED to exist.  It was called “The Fairness Doctrine” and it served a critical function in mass media.  What it did was guarantee that “free speech” would not just be afforded to those who can afford it. 

If Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly, and others who spend hundreds of hours a month on mass media attacking, demonizing, accusing, and naming names were forced to allow equal time for those people to present their views and defend themselves, you would notice an INSTANT change in the tone of political discourse.

Why is it that Limbaugh et. al. have gone on the warpath accusing Obama of wanting to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine (which he doesn’t)?  It’s because they fear it.  They know it would derail the gravy train and they’d have to get real jobs instead being the fat cats who lie and laugh their way to the bank on a sea of hate-spawned cash.

-Wexler

This country must treat the leadership of Operation Rescue exactly the same as it does al Qaeda!

RAE,

I am sorry to report that there is a large portion of our nation that does indeed listen to the incessant droneing of the wacko right 24/7, it is the old american south.

All one needs to do is take a drive through old dixie one morning and turn on the radio. All that can be heard on every station, and I mean every station, is old southern hatespeak. Everyone that is not a christian conservative is a commie, and god forbid you be black or mexican. If you do not act like us, talk like us, or go to church with us, you un-american and will burn in hell.

If you think I am exaggerating, just take a long drive through Tennessee or Alabama and turn on the radio, and drive under the speed limit, and for god’s sake don’t be black(or mexican, or jewish, you get the picture)

Limbaugh is just the leader of a whole host of loud-mouthed bigots who glibly parrot the right-wingnut manifesto of “hate anything that isn’t us.”

Their endless negative droning is oh so tiresome. It boggles my mind that they can still attract enough readers/listeners/viewers to pay the bills. Are there REALLY that many simple-minded, religiously-fanatic hypocrits out there with enough brains to even hold a job to support these cretins?

When the two soldiers were shot in Arkansas that man was imediatly charged as a terrorist. What happened in Kansas was no less a terrorist act. Yet I have heard nothing about this man being charged as such. Is this because Christian Fudamentalists can’t be terrorists only Muslims? The talking heads on the right are the same as the mullahs who presch violence.

The very idea that the ‘Far Right Wing Nuts of the Grand Orgy Party,’ can hide behind the 1st Amendment is actually a comfort to me. Yet the idea that they can use their platforms to spout obscene and violent forms of rhetoric is abhorrent to me.
But doubt and ambivalence are the byproducts of having a system that encourages freedom of speech. We, the people need this debate regarding the viability of having ‘freedom of speech.’  To myself and others the ‘Far Right Wing Nuts’ such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly are especially evil and use the cloak of the 1st Amendment as a shield for their violent and treasonous rhetoric.
When a person such as these uses the public airwaves to spout this type of rhetoric, it can incite violence and rage in their listeners, who are already prone to conspiracy theories about the left’s ability to change the course of events in America, to further their ‘overthrow’ of the democratic system. This is nothing but twaddle and further from the truth than can be imagined.
It may be that the ‘elite’ of the Democratic Party has certain ideas that are not in line with the ideals of the system that we have today. But the majority of the Democratic Party, wants and needs the system that we have today.
I am of the opinion that these purveyors of ‘balance and fairness,’ are nothing but. They spurt nonsensical and idiotic ideas that mean nothing to the rest of the nation, but mean a lot to those Far Right Wing Nuts of the GOP.

Conason has it all wrong.  What is happening is EXACTLY what the Right wants to happen: Their views are enforced by violence which they can then disassociate themselves from. 

Right-winger after Right-wing-nut has decried the violence followed by “But Tiller was a mass-murderer”.  After each violent incident, abortions have been harder to come by, ESPECIALLY medically necessary late-term ones.

This is how you cheat democracy and freedom of speech: You pretend to be having a public debate but you have a violent TERRORIST wing to enforce your opinions by terrorizing the opposition.

Wait. Soon proponents of OTHER liberal views will be gunned down.

It’s not that the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O’Reillys can’t escape their responsibility, (but they WILL escape any LEGAL culpability) it’s that this is how fascists destroy democracy and Limbaugh and O’Reilly are part of this treason.