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War Is Sin

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Posted on Jun 1, 2009
AP photo / Khalid Mohammed

By Chris Hedges

The crisis faced by combat veterans returning from war is not simply a profound struggle with trauma and alienation. It is often, for those who can slice through the suffering to self-awareness, an existential crisis. War exposes the lies we tell ourselves about ourselves. It rips open the hypocrisy of our religions and secular institutions. Those who return from war have learned something which is often incomprehensible to those who have stayed home. We are not a virtuous nation. God and fate have not blessed us above others. Victory is not assured. War is neither glorious nor noble. And we carry within us the capacity for evil we ascribe to those we fight.

Those who return to speak this truth, such as members of Iraq Veterans Against the War, are our contemporary prophets. But like all prophets they are condemned and ignored for their courage. They struggle, in a culture awash in lies, to tell what few have the fortitude to digest. They know that what we are taught in school, in worship, by the press, through the entertainment industry and at home, that the melding of the state’s rhetoric with the rhetoric of religion, is empty and false.

The words these prophets speak are painful. We, as a nation, prefer to listen to those who speak from the patriotic script. We prefer to hear ourselves exalted. If veterans speak of terrible wounds visible and invisible, of lies told to make them kill, of evil committed in our name, we fill our ears with wax. Not our boys, we say, not them, bred in our homes, endowed with goodness and decency. For if it is easy for them to murder, what about us? And so it is simpler and more comfortable not to hear. We do not listen to the angry words that cascade forth from their lips, wishing only that they would calm down, be reasonable, get some help, and go away. We, the deformed, brand our prophets as madmen. We cast them into the desert. And this is why so many veterans are estranged and enraged. This is why so many succumb to suicide or addictions.

War comes wrapped in patriotic slogans, calls for sacrifice, honor and heroism and promises of glory. It comes wrapped in the claims of divine providence. It is what a grateful nation asks of its children. It is what is right and just. It is waged to make the nation and the world a better place, to cleanse evil. War is touted as the ultimate test of manhood, where the young can find out what they are made of. War, from a distance, seems noble. It gives us comrades and power and a chance to play a small bit in the great drama of history. It promises to give us an identity as a warrior, a patriot, as long as we go along with the myth, the one the war-makers need to wage wars and the defense contractors need to increase their profits.

But up close war is a soulless void. War is about barbarity, perversion and pain, an unchecked orgy of death. Human decency and tenderness are crushed. Those who make war work overtime to reduce love to smut, and all human beings become objects, pawns to use or kill. The noise, the stench, the fear, the scenes of eviscerated bodies and bloated corpses, the cries of the wounded, all combine to spin those in combat into another universe. In this moral void, naively blessed by secular and religious institutions at home, the hypocrisy of our social conventions, our strict adherence to moral precepts, come unglued. War, for all its horror, has the power to strip away the trivial and the banal, the empty chatter and foolish obsessions that fill our days. It lets us see, although the cost is tremendous.

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The Rev. William P. Mahedy, who was a Catholic chaplain in Vietnam, tells of a soldier, a former altar boy, in his book “Out of the Night: The Spiritual Journey of Vietnam Vets,” who says to him: “Hey, Chaplain ... how come it’s a sin to hop into bed with a mama-san but it’s okay to blow away gooks out in the bush?”

“Consider the question that he and I were forced to confront on that day in a jungle clearing,” Mahedy writes. “How is it that a Christian can, with a clear conscience, spend a year in a war zone killing people and yet place his soul in jeopardy by spending a few minutes with a prostitute? If the New Testament prohibitions of sexual misconduct are to be stringently interpreted, why, then, are Jesus’ injunctions against violence not binding in the same way? In other words, what does the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ really mean?”

Military chaplains, a majority of whom are evangelical Christians, defend the life of the unborn, tout America as a Christian nation and eagerly bless the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as holy crusades. The hollowness of their morality, the staggering disconnect between the values they claim to promote, is ripped open in war.


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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Garth, you are not alone in the anti war sentiment, what seems sad to me is the wars are accepted like pedophiles in the Catholic Church, and corruption in politics, just a part of everyday operations in business as usual.

Chomsky’s unpeople seems a reality.

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By garth, June 13, 2010 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

I think it was about 30 thousand years ago when humankind first started writing on shithouse walls so to speak with the paleolithic cave paintings.
Fast forward to today and we can video something anywhere in the world and watch it from our living rooms.

Sooooooo, what does America do with this advanced technology?  It kills people with wanton cruelty, especially, wedding party attendees, farmers, shepherds and innocent men women and children livbing in shanties. 

The Air Force calls it surgical strikes.  Each time it might be said that the operation was a success but many of the wrong patients died.

Watch the fishermen down on the Gulf of Mexico.  They are in tears, besieged with BP Oil, media and Government and BP workers trying to put a positive spin on the events of the day. 

The people are scared, angry and bewildered.  Their life as they knew it is probably gone, maybe gone for good.  Reminds me of the quote, “The world will end not with a bang but with a whimper.”

The American population is tired and confused.  Tired from decades of being overworked and over indebtedness in a vain attempt to keep up and to provide profits for the instinctually insatiable.

The lust for power and the greed of the Ruling Elite has outstripped the American population’s interest in war.  They are angry but also scared and easily manipulated.  When someone is that fundamentally scared, he or she looks for cover, for a place to hide and re-group.

The war machine doesn’t face the same threats of poverty, hunger and lack of purpose.  They march on collecting taxpayer money for their instruments of killing and think it could go on for a long time.

Congress could end it right now, but they will no doubt pass the war funding supplemental bill ($ 50 billion) that is coming up.

Americans are whipped and half out of their minds.  During Katrina, Al Franken’s radio show called a beauty parlor in Baton Rouge to get some feedback from Louisianans about the aftermath.

He was expecting a reaction to Bush’s mishandling of the disaster.  Instead he heard typical Reaganesque racial slurs about how those welfare queens had been getting everything for nothing for years. It was time to just let them suffer.

That’s the kind of Americans we are.  And that’s why the war machine with all its cogs and gears and connections will continue.  Or as a popular saying goes, “It’ll keep going until it can’t anymore.  Then it will stop.”

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 15, 2010 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

Until war is not looked at as a necessity and holy virtue but as an abomination it will continue.

Republics don’t live off of war but empires do.

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By garth, April 14, 2010 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

This blog reminds me of two voices I heard in the 60s.  One was a from guy named Spinale who retired from the GE and opened a submarine sandwich shop in East Lynn.  The other was from a guy name Al Levy, a professor of Special Education.  They both assured me that these wars were necessary to reduce the chances of an all out nuclear war with Russia.

After the War in Vietnam has been proven to be a war that is nothing but a war businessman’s dream come true and the all the wars that the U.S. has been engaged in since Vietnam have redoubled that exposure, then it might be past time to take a good hard look at who pays the price for war.

“Once there was a way to get back homeward. Once there way to go back home.
Boy, you’re going to carry that weight a long time.”

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 14, 2010 at 10:58 am Link to this comment

War is an evil that could eliminate us from this ecosphere. Once some humans decided they could own, steal from, torture, rape and kill other humans that was when the evil was set loose upon the world and us.

Only sentient beings can do what we call evil and it is also in the end is a dead end parasitical strategy of survival.

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By greenpunk, April 13, 2010 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

in short…human have no rights to take others’ life.we
human even have the rights to judge people.war leads to
killing furthermore leads to sin…thats all.the most
simple things i would like to ask you all….have you
slaughter a chicken for your meal.what do you feel
after slaughter it.but SLAUGHTERING people is more than
that.thing about it..whether you’re an agnostic,
atheist or theist….i’m telling you war is sin.because
war leads to anger & hatred which source of sin.

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, October 3, 2009 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

And with such pleasant thoughts bubbling in our brains maybe we have reached the end of this line. Maybe.

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By Jenchen, October 2, 2009 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The evil is not those who plan scheme to convince you war is
good and necessary and something that can turn ordinary
morons into heros-the evil is what is done by those who carry
out the war-the soldiers whose every act in war takes from them
their soul and fills them with like minded demonic entities and
sends them to Hell—Don’t blame Satan for tempting you his
earthly emissaries/your leaders are miserable and already
soulless-Blame the hypocrites who harm and kill and destroy-
their brethren and think themselves heroic because they have
chosen lies over the truth-for ego and vanity and pride-some
for greed-& put themselves in Hell. The same can be said of
Police and the so-called justice system.-If you destroy life you
go to Hell-even if it is the enemy in War, prisoners, the poor or
the unfortunate who must play the part of evil villains in order
that you can play out to your false Charades of being valuable
and heroic-such are the lies that people put themselves in Hell
with-where you must endure all the pain and destruction you
inflicted on others. Why can’t you love? Why didn’t you ever go to
war and not kill-lay down your guns and take your enemies and
love them as your friends?  Because you are all evil-War is not
evil-you are evil-Satan just allows you to prove how evil you
are-by giving you the arena you need to put yourselves in Hell
where you always put yourselves. That is why Nobody wants to
stop you from the total nuclear destruction that is about to
happen.

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By Fern, August 14, 2009 at 8:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Give please. Nothing has a stronger influence psychologically on their environment and especially on their children than the unlived life of the parent. Help me! Please help find sites for: Asian stock market. I found only this - origins of the stock market. Sitka pacific is an asset management firm whose goal is strong performance and low volatility, regardless of market direction. This year they are both coming at us at the same time, which means you have to be pretty insane to own any stocks in coming months. Best regards :-(, Fern from Guatemala.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 6, 2009 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Colin666.

I’m now going to get baptized, insist my wife quit her job and become my household and sex slave, and I’m going to start whipping my children whenever they even look cross-wise at me. Then I’m going to burn every book in my house but the Holy Bible (King James Version) and send all my money to Pat Robertson.

After all, I’m now as sure for Heaven as if I’m already there.

And it’s all thanks to you and the brilliant analogy of the blind man.

Now can you tell us the one about the watch found in the field proving “Intelligent Design”?

Thanks for everything.  Tell Pat to watch for the check—it’s in the mail.

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By Night-Gaunt, July 5, 2009 at 7:42 pm Link to this comment

Being metaphorical Colin2626262? Very nice and we who don’t believe are blind then? I’ve read the Bible too and understand the gist of it. [Actually it has at least two, maybe three gists in it and they aren’t at all compatible.] As my mother likes to tell me, I will find out after I am dead and it will be too late. I say that to her too.

To me war isn’t a sin it is an evil. One that is still nurtured in our collective civilization on this planet. Since we don’t have a predator against us we our selves fit that position! It wouldn’t be the first time that evolution culled one of its own by itself by its own actions. Though so far we are the only ones we know of that have reached this level of self awareness. Can we learn and grow or remain and die? It is up to us i.e. homo ex machina.

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By ardee, July 5, 2009 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

colin2626262, July 5 at 4:59 pm #

Blind folks have been living rich and fulfilling lives for many, many years. They hold jobs, play sports ( I have watched a blind golfer or three in my day), and Ive heard or read of none falling off cliffs.I think they need no stupid and childish platitudes as you offer. You do not even know when you are being rude and insulting.
hint: most of the time…..

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By colin2626262, July 5, 2009 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

There was once a blind man walking along a road.  He bumped into another man, a man who could see, walking along the same road.  “Why don’t you watch where you’re going?” said the blind man.  The man who could see said, “I’m sorry.”  And he was.  He felt terrible for the blind man, not because he was blind but because he didn’t seem to know he was blind.  And so in order to help him, he said, “You know, you’re the one who should watch where you’re going.  You ought to have someone with you to help you, so you won’t be bumping into people or even doing something worse like walking into the middle of the street and getting hit by a car.  If you want, I’ll help you.  I’ll walk with you wherever you want to go.  That way you’ll be a lot safer, and we can maybe become friends too, which will make us both happy.  What do you say?” 

The blind man just laughed and grunted in disapproval.  “I don’t need you.  Get away from me.  I’m fine by myself.”  The man who could see was saddened by this rejection, but he knew he couldn’t change the blind man’s mind.  The blind man would have to change his mind on his own.  But the man who could see said, “I understand, but if you ever want to call me, here’s my phone number.”  And he told him his number.  “The offer still stands, and it will always stand, for as long as I live.”  “Get away.  You’re annoying, and you’re stupid.  I can get around this world fine without the help of the likes of you.”  “Good bye, then.”  “Good riddance.”  The man who could see watched the blind man walk away.  A few weeks later, he read in the newspaper that a blind man had fallen off a cliff to his death.

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By Rontruth, July 4, 2009 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad:
You are correct in that, with eyewitnesses one has to listen to more than just one or two witnesses to whatever event may have orrurred. In the Kennedy case, more than 75% of the total number of eyewitnesses who were in Dealey Plaza, and that is nearly all of those who stood on both sides of Elm Street, said they heard at least one shot fired from the fence on the grassy knoll. That included about 45% of the witnesses who stood on Houston Street, some distance from the grassy knoll.

It is the sum total of witnesses who corroborate each other’s testimony at the time of the event that gives police investigators the necessary evidence of exactly what happened.

The Warren Commission took it’s orders from LBJ through Bill Moyers, who was LBJ’s liaison with Nichoias Katzenbach, acting Attorney General, that said, “The public must be convinced that Oswald was the assassin; would have been convicted at trial, and that he did not have confederates.” Those orders were given at a non-televised news conference on Monday, Nov. 25, 1963. This was before any investigation could have even begun.

On Friday afternoon, Nov. 22, 1963, when local Dallas police sent FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover a telegram saying that they had other suspects being held for the crime, within three hours of when the shots were fired, Hoover penned a note at the bottom of the telegram saying, “do not need to persue furthe suspects in case. The culprit has been detained.” So, Hoover somehow just knew that Oswald was the assassin, even though he would not be charged with the crime for another seven hours.

If you go to search engine, “There was a recording from a phone tap on the office of FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover about a plot to kill Kennedy that was recorded by a top secret CIA counter-intelligence unit, code-named “Pegasus,” you will find information by a former intelligence officer, Rodney Stich, in his book, “Defrauding America.”

The phone tap recording was done on August 16, 1963. Stich lists five names of people that would be familiar to most Americans, even today. And big oil was involved.

This is uncomfortabe stuff. I love my country also. I love it enough to try to get to the truth, just as an average citizen, and former member of the US Air Force, and proud of it. Like some say, though others try to disparage the idea: “he truth shall make you free.” It does because it helps you understand when people lie to you, and when they are telling the truth. Not perfectly. But a lot better than wnen one only suspects that he knows the truth, but does not persue it to actually find out the truth of an event.

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By Sepharad, July 4, 2009 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

Rontruth, Night Gaunt pretty much answers why JFK’s life and death is of relevance to this thread. As for flying saucers, it is relevant in the sense that regarding certain phenomenon, even eyewitnesses fail to agree and mass subjectivity of opinions here make some of our theories less than persuasive.

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By Rontruth, July 4, 2009 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt:
The JFK assassination is only important, not so much because a man was publicly executed, but because he, in the year prior to his sudden, untimely, but obviously well planned demise, and they can say whatever they want, NOT by the nand or gun of Lee Harvey Oswald, he had left Castro in power in Cuba, angering both the maifiosi, who had hoped to have Fidel ousted, and he reversed course, after the Cuban missile crisis, and ordered the full withdrawal of all US forces from Vietnam.

Kennedy had also been presented a Pentagon plan to rid Cuba of Castro: “The Northwoods Project.” It was a plan whereby, if necessary and other means did not suffice to get Castro out, would involve anti-Castro Cuban exiles being trained to fly old, repainted US WW11 bombers, to hit either the base at Guantanamo, Cuba, or bomb, in planes repainted to look like Cuban air force bombers, enough targets in south Florida, to formce Kennedy’s hand in ordering an invasion of Cuba.

The conspiracy haters don’t like specific pieces of evidence to show what Kennedy faced. They think it makes Kennedy look too good. They point to his womanizing, etc. and try to say that, all the way through his 3 years in office, he was just another typical Cold War president. That he was not.

They doubt the vast majority of close witnesses to the assassination. Jean Hill, for example, who never, from the day of the event until her death on Nov. 7, 2000, ever changed her story. The FBI and Warren Commission tried to make her out to be some kind of nut. They even tried recently to say that Mary Ann Moorman, who stood a few feet to her left on the south side of Elm Street taking the polaroid photo of the last century (in my humble opinion only), might not actually have been there, if you can imagine that!

At any rate, the reason for the issue of Kennedy’s assassination being of importance in a discussion here is that he actually tried, during especially his last year of life, to use war as only a last defensive resort. Following his death, it was all CIA lies, from the Gulf of Tonkin incidents to the current Iraq war. What some people are now saying is that we need to get back, in a hurry, to the days when presidents actually attempted to follow the Constitution.

Now, let’s all sit back and watch all the anti-conspiracy bullets fly!

Peace

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By Inherit The Wind, July 4, 2009 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

ardee, July 4 at 12:58 pm #

Fixed it for ya, RD. smile

Eeeewh, ITW, fixed it? You had to have the mental image of me, dead drunk ( years and years ago) jumping up and down, waving my arms yelling, take me, take me!

It was enough of a blow to me to see that stately blimp emerge from behind the trees. If it had been Rush I would probably have immediately joined AA and become a friend of Bill W.
***********************************

ROFLMAO!

If I had seen that I’d a quit drinking too…

OTOH, if I was sober I’d have started drinking, heavily!

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Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, July 4, 2009 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Despite JFK assassination and many a UFO & USO’s being seen for centuries by many people, most of whom would otherwise be considered excellent witnesses, how does that figure into how war as being fought mostly by Christians jibe with Jesus’ teachings of peace over war? Do you know? Bored? Maybe this thread is now dead. Just random impulses make it appear to be alive.

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By ardee, July 4, 2009 at 9:58 am Link to this comment

Fixed it for ya, RD. smile

Eeeewh, ITW, fixed it? You had to have the mental image of me, dead drunk ( years and years ago) jumping up and down, waving my arms yelling, take me, take me!

It was enough of a blow to me to see that stately blimp emerge from behind the trees. If it had been Rush I would probably have immediately joined AA and become a friend of Bill W.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, July 4, 2009 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

Clyde does seem to delude many things from his experiences. One thing about Clyde’s delusions, his story always stays the same, except when I ask him ......“what did the aliens look like Clyde?”  He seems to change the description of what or who the probers and needle pokers look like.

Usually his view of the aliens always seems to correspond with characters last seen on the news. (Next time it may be Michel Jackson or Palian or a guy who made a trip to Argentina)  It seems in the past the anal probes were mostly performed by Republicans, but lately they seem to be crossing party lines.  Last time Clyde told the story, he received his anal. probe from an alien which looked like,  Polosi in a nurses uniform. It seems his delusions come from manifestations of the political goings on in Washington DC. So, I find when asking Clyde what the aliens looked like, provides me with some strange sort news update, for his selections of probers seem most real in deluded probability  

Of course this always depends on what Clyde has been drinking at the time or if he has been visiting the medical pot brothers next door.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 4, 2009 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

ardee, July 4 at 7:58 am #

Leefeller, July 3 at 9:27 pm #

My brother Clyde tells me repeatedly especially when partaking in Uncle’s home mande moonshine,  Clyde tells a story of being chased by a UFO
........................................

I, too, have had such an experience and it is time I shared it.

I was returning from a 49er football game, about 9:30 PM after arriving at the stadium about 8AM, tailgating and imbibing freely of course. I was traveling up this tree lined road when I saw some strange lights through gaps in the trees. It was very low and moving very slowly. I immediately understood that it could only be a UFO, being of sharp mind and clear thought of course.

I knew the trees ended about a quarter mile ahead so I gunned the car and pulled over just beyond the tree line and awaited the arrival of the flying saucer. While I jumped up and down yelling to attract attention, slowly and ponderously emerging from the trees was….. the Goodyear blimp…aka, Rush Limbaugh!

***********************

Fixed it for ya, RD. smile

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By ardee, July 4, 2009 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, July 3 at 9:27 pm #

My brother Clyde tells me repeatedly especially when partaking in Uncle’s home mande moonshine,  Clyde tells a story of being chased by a UFO
........................................

I, too, have had such an experience and it is time I shared it.

I was returning from a 49er football game, about 9:30 PM after arriving at the stadium about 8AM, tailgating and imbibing freely of course. I was traveling up this tree lined road when I saw some strange lights through gaps in the trees. It was very low and moving very slowly. I immediately understood that it could only be a UFO, being of sharp mind and clear thought of course.

I knew the trees ended about a quarter mile ahead so I gunned the car and pulled over just beyond the tree line and awaited the arrival of the flying saucer. While I jumped up and down yelling to attract attention, slowly and ponderously emerging from the trees was….. the Goodyear blimp!

Rats!!!

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By Sepharad, July 3, 2009 at 10:50 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, you’re lucky Clyde doesn’t insist that YOU believe what HE believes to be true. Two former airforce pilots—one I met in journalism school, another at a social gathering—both swear they (at different times) spotted a ufo flying rings around them and when they gave chase it took off as if they were barely moving by comparison. Unfortunately they both insisted that other people believe their interpretations of the event. One of them, who went on to become dean of a significant journalism school, actually wrote a book about his experience, from which he extrapolates a whole new belief system. I don’t doubt they saw what they saw, just the conclusions they drew.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 3, 2009 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

I hope you don’t leave Clyde alone with the farm animals…..

And those front shooters were using focused, enhanced tachyon beam generators.

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By ardee, July 3, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

As I said, I had a 45 minute phone conversation with one of them, Jean Hill, in May, 1997. If you can’t accept the testimony of one of the closes witnesses to the event, then you really are one of those schnookered right wing servants of those who love to lie to you, and others like you, about their violent actions that tear at the very heart of our Constitutional form of government.
..................................

As it happens, Rontruth, you are wrong in your increasingly agitated appearing assertion that opposing conspiracy theorists signifies such a sophomoric description of those who seek truth rather more prozaic.

Witnesses to events can often give conflicting testimony to what actually occurred, that is a fact. Just because someone was there, and you spoke to her, however many decades after the event itself, is proof of nothing other than your dedication and conviction.

The way you describe those who refuse your opinion shows a bit more than we should see.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, July 3, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

My brother Clyde tells me repeatedly especially when partaking in Uncle’s home mande moonshine,  Clyde tells a story of being chased by a UFO along the county road several times, it seems they only chase Clyde at night. One night he stopped to take a Budweiser leak and the UFO landed and aliens took him aboard the UFO.  He said they did not say anything to him, but poked him with needles and finally gave him the official UFO anal probe. Which Clyde feels, means he is now a true UFOB, Seems the anal probe is an important part of belonging to the UFO club. 

Clyde says I do not have to accept the undocumented truth or his word as it seems to be. Clyde also says we should go ahead and believe, to our heart’s oblivious content because the truth is the truth.

Clyde believes in his mind, it is possible to know everything about everything, because he only looks to himself for the truth.  I learned a long time ago, when Clyde says something is right or wrong, or true, therefore when he believes it is right or wrong, it is. So in Clyde’s mind, believing something is true or right or wrong,  it is what he thinks, so it must be true?

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By Sepharad, July 3, 2009 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind, for today’s 3:41 post, thank you. I agree with you re RFK and am glad you mentioned Sirhan-Sirhan’s reasoning and the Arafaat possibility. I’m always hesitant to bring up such things as I’ve become overly sensitive to even mentioning Israel lest the Harges, Flktrthr et al change the whole thread into a bash Israel-defend Israel thing. RFK was even a stronger supporter of Israel than his brother. If any Israeli Jew ever assassinated an American Presidential frontrunner you’d never hear the end of it, unlike the lack of coverage by major media coverage of Sirhan-Sirhan’s explanation of why he killed RFK. Sad, that this should be the case.

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By Rontruth, July 3, 2009 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Inherit,
No one said YOU had to accept the documented truth. As far as I’m concerned, you should go ahead and believe, to you heart’s oblivious content that your government, under the pressure of powerful corporate interests INSIDE the United States could do such a thing as put pressure on the secret agencies of the US Government, causing those agencies’ trained covert operatives to do as they obviously did to their Commander-in-Chief, all you want. That is your previlege.

But, as you can easily see on this forum, I am not alone in my views of what the witnesses have said. As I said, I had a 45 minute phone conversation with one of them, Jean Hill, in May, 1997. If you can’t accept the testimony of one of the closes witnesses to the event, then you really are one of those schnookered right wing servants of those who love to lie to you, and others like you, about their violent actions that tear at the very heart of our Constitutional form of government.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 3, 2009 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

RonDream:

I simply am not going to take you and the multi-shooter scenario seriously. 

BTW, RFK was murdered by Sirhan Sirhan, a PALESTINIAN who later said in prison it was because RFK was very sympathetic to Israel and WOULD be elected, so he was killing the President in effect.

NONE of the JFK conspiracy theories tie to the Palestinians.  Yet THEY killed the man who WHOULD have been elected President in 1968 and WOULD have ended the Viet Nam war.  Instead we got Nixon.

Historians may well rank the murder of RFK as more history-changing than that of JFK.  Besides, RFK was a helluva light brighter, faster on his feet (mentally), and tougher and more ruthless.

Yet the obvious question of the involvement of Arafat in the RFK killing never seems to be raised, even though just 4 years after RFK, they were mounting the 1972 Munich terrorist crisis.

Connections there are lots more obvious, folks.  Unless we pretend Munich was ANOTHER Mossad false-flag op since that’s the preferred conspiracy theory of choice for EVERYTHING here.

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By Rontruth, July 3, 2009 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissi:
Let’s be frank. No one, including myself, said Kennedy was a perfect man. You mention the highly paced women that he bedded down with, including one associated with Sam Giancana. He also hook-danced with the wife of mob and CIA man, Cord Meyer, who indeed did participate in JFK’s murder. But, I disagree completely with you in your simple summation of Kennedy’s foreign policies.

You somehow fail to understand that, as I have said, with documentation to show it, that Kennedy turned against the Cold War attitude immediately following the missile crisis. It was one of those epiphanious experiences for him. He suddenly got the broader vision of what the presidency is supposed to be used for. When he made that massive, watershed change, THAT is when the lovers of war-profits made the final decision to have Kennedy “eliminated.”

During his first two years, you are likely not too far off track. But, in his last year of life, you are completely incorrect.

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By Anarcissie, July 3, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

If you reinterpret history for the other presidents the way you do for Kennedy, then they will all appear to be wonderful fellows who did nothing wrong.  However, I think if the Bay of Pigs was carried out on Kennedy’s watch, it was Kennedy’s responsibility.  I think if the American presence in Vietnam was increased from 1100 to 17,000, it was Kennedy’s responsibility.  If he used a woman as a mistress in common with Sam Giancana, a noted gangster, it was his responsibility.  If his brother, who was a friend of and worked for Senator Joseph McCarthy, who authorized J. Edgar Hoover to spy on and harass Martin Luther King, who authorized at least one assassination attempt on Castro, became his closest and most influential advisor, it was his responsibility.  I am really tired of the Kennedy whitewash.

Was there some plot involved in his assassination?  Given his association with gangsters and state thugs like J. Edgar Hoover, I wouldn’t be surprised.  The fact that his brother was later rubbed out suggests a real Mafia-style gang war.  But, as I said, as to policy, philosophy and values, he was right in the post-World War 2 American tradition.

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By Rontruth, July 3, 2009 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

Sepharad:
I will do some thinking about the name of the author and his book. He is an older man now, but finally did the book with a friend and a publisher. He had also worhipped the ground that Kennedy walked on. He wanted to go to Dallas, as there had been much information about the attitude of many Texans about Kennedy and his peaceful-purposes policies, especially during that last year of his term and his life.

I had a 45 minute phone conversation with Jean Lollis Hill, the “lady in the red outfit” in the Zapruder and other films made of the Kennedy ride down Elm Street. This was in May, 1997, about two and one half years before her death on, of all times to die, election night, Nov. 7, 2000. I saw and heard the reports of it on TV news as the election results were coming in. They said she died of “unknown causes.” In truth, she had heart disease. She told me not to give my personal information because she said she thought that, “the FBI might still have (her) phone tapped.”

I think those who were, at various levels of involvement in the JFK hitjob were just being brought back to power that evening. She wrote a book, “The Last Dissenting Witness,” which I had read before talking with her. She told me what she saw and heard as she stood with friend, Mary Ann Moorman who took the famous Moorman Polaroid photo of President Kennedy snapped 1/6 th of a second AFTER the fatal shot to his head, obviously showing the large blowout to the back of his head from the shot from the picket fence on the knoll.

For doubters, sometimes it helps to actually talk to the people who were there, if you were not there, yourselves.

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By Sepharad, July 2, 2009 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

Rontruth,

He never wrote a book—had toyed with the idea but worried about his wife’s and two children’s safety—however the gist of the “charlatans” quote rings a bell. Maybe I read it somewhere or maybe he said something like it. I do definitely recall that he had wanted to go to Dallas to double-check security personally, but the Director insisted he stay in D.C. (My uncle was never made Director despite his record; there was a glass ceiling for Jews in the Secret Service, FBI & CIA in those days, something else JFK despised). I’d like to read the book you describe very much—do you know the title? As I was working in and out of D.C. a lot, staying with my uncle and aunt, we had a lot of conversations. But he never said anything specific, easily deflecting my best questioning tricks to evoke information indirectly—maybe because before his Secret Service days he’d come up as a spy and then for a long time an undercover narc, which he said (tongue in cheek, usually to make myt aunt mad)developed his natural ability to lie. Oddly, I’ve ever known a more truthful person, except my father. Am still in close touch, every week or so, with my cousins; will ask them what if anythiing they remember.

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By Rontruth, July 2, 2009 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

Sepherad:
I agree with your sense of Kennedy, the man, and the president. Vietnam was one reason for his death. This is evident when one does a study of the James E. Files story at http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com. There are several main issues that are important at that site. They are key to the truthfulness of “Jimmy’s” story;

A. That James Files’ very active role in the plot, came to light, quite by accident through a statement he made to an FBI Informant that Jimmy trusted as a close, longtime friend. Jimmy did not know that his friend was, much as Lee Oswald was to the FBI on one side, and the CIA and New Orleans anti-Castro Cuban community on the other side, an FBI Informant. Jimmy’s statement that “If the American people ever knew what really happened here, they wouldn’t be able to handle it,” was noted by the Informant, and turned over to the Chicago main field office of the FBI, to a Special Agent, Zach Shelton, who kept the Informant’s note and other information.

2. When, in 1988, one year after John Rademacher found the 22 Caliber bullet shell casing, with what turned out to be Jimmy’s teethmarks on it near the open end of the casing, there was a Dallas TV station news report of the find, given only once. A local Dallas area private investigator listened and saw the report, and started an investigation into the Kennedy assassination at once.

3. When the PI found Files at Stateville Prison, on conviction of attmepting to shoot a Chicago undercover cop, and was/is serving a 50 year prison term for it, Files initially would not speak to the investigator. But, gradually, with some assistance from a relative of Jimmy’s outside prison, Files began giving more and more information to the PI. He told the PI about the “mercury round” that he used.

4. The national media then began to pick up on the story. They did everything they could to obfuscate and lie about Jimmy and what he told the PI, with docuemts to prove it that would not have been in his possession had he not been an agent of the CIA, at that time, the PI did something unusual.

5. He, because he was a licensed attorney in Texas, went to a local court of competent jurisdiction, and files a suit to have President Kennedy’s body exhumed, so that the head bones and fragments left could be examined for mercury, which never dissipates. His life was threatened. Joe West entered a hospital for a planned heart surgery, came out and was doing well when suddenly he had a new cardiologist who made major changes in his psot operative medications. Joe, who had become a friend of James Files, suddenly died.

6. Jimmy has said several times that he felt that his friend had been murdered to keep the JFK body from ever again seeing the light of day. He then told West’s successor every detail of where he was, whom he was in contact with, what CIA official (David Atlee Phillips) had recruited him, was his CIA controller, and how the other Chicago “family” members were involved.

7. He tells of other participants, giving their names and information about them that only someone who was there could have known. Yet, Chauncey Holt, one of the “tramps,” brought in people from Arizona whose names Files had mentioned. Yet, Files did not recognize Holt, but knew the people Holt had driven into Dallas. He knew Johnny Roselli was there, but had never known William Robert (Tosh) Plumlee, the pilot who flew Roselli into Dallas from Florida.

8. None of the three, Files, Holt, or Plumlee had ever seen or know each other. All three knew the names of those who were directly involved in the shooting part of the plot. That is how we know that Files is telling the truth.

He never wanted to, though.

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By Sepharad, July 2, 2009 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie—Sorry. Meant the JFK “conspiracy” was different in that it was probably real. As for the man, he and his brother did back up the voting rights effort—probably would not have been possible without their political muscle. He inherited the Bay of Pigs, would probably (though no way to tell for sure) would have aborted the Vietnam effort because it was becoming apparent it wasn’t a war that made sense. I don’t think JFK was any more “moral” than other pols, but he was certainly more intelligent than most. And he did manage to get us through the missile crisis without touching off a war—though luck played a large part too.

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By Rontruth, July 2, 2009 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissi:
Kennedy was different. His first two years in office, until the massive lesson that he, and Soviet Premier, Kruschev learned simultaneously, at the end of the Cuban missile crisis, were, to say the least, without previous parallel. I specifically refer to his taking off to an unknown location when the final order for the CIA’s “Operation Zapata,” was sought by General Charles Cabbel of USAF on loan to the CIA.

Indeed, he could say that the CIA went ahead on it’s own steam, but previously had lied to him about the chances of the invasion’s success. He fired the top three at CIA headquarters on the basis of the latter reason, not the first one, which would have obviated him and perhaps, although unfairly perhaps, a chicken.

He was poilitically astute enough to know which argument to use in order to fire Dulles, Bissel and Cabbel, whose brother was mayor of Dallas on Nov.  22, 1963. But, he forgot that those guys and their former Pentagon, Army Intelligence, ONI, and their trained assassins and alliances with organized crime leaders, had a long history of killing those who stood, and yet today, stand in their way.

Under Kennedy, the intelligence community was split between those agents and officers who loved the man and understood the tactic of using diplomacy and cultural exchange and trade, as well as foreign investments into indigenous companies that worked on water projects and bridges, etc. The other side wanted US involvement to come in the form of a You Take Our Offer Of US Corporations doing the work at taxpayer expense, rather than the cheaper indigenous companies doing it, or it’s “lies to start wars with” time.

The right wing extremist, CIA sympathetic, lying US news media were owned by the corporate friends of those corporations that stood to gain from war, knowing as they did that proud people anywhere will stand and fight an aggressor, rather than roll over and play dead, used their influence to propogate talk of war. They did it at the time that Kennedy talked of withdrawal from Vietnam with Walter Kronkite of CBS News. They did it when he secretly signed National Security Action Memo 263, ordering the beginning of the withdrawal.

They did it when they told their Dallas news reporters what to say on November 22, 1963. But, Kronkite, having many back-channel sources of on-scene news information, started immediately telling the real truth about the gun, a German-made, large, powerful weapon—a Mauser 7.65 mm rifle, was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building, within minutes of when it was discovered by the first police to enter the building within about four or five minutes of when the five shots had been fired.

Oswald’s finger prints were nowhere to be found on a weapon he did not own. When,at Police headquarters, the little Mannlicher-Carcano was planted and found, according to the testimony of Billy Lovelady, an employee of the Depository, who as soon as the second police team went into the building, went up to the sixth floor of the building, and said he saw the police, who had taken the gun from Ruth Paine whose Rambler stationwagon was photographed and filmed on Elm St. headed east (Lovelady knew her), have a police camera film “the finding of the Oswald weapon.” That is how the beginning of the cover-up actually began. It is all documented.

The evidence is what is used in most criminal cases. Mere hypotheses and speculations are not sufficient. But, those are the excuses used by the CIA and it’s media assets.

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By Anarcissie, July 2, 2009 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad:
’... JFK was different though. ...’

Kennedy was probably the most aggressive of the Cold-War presidents, and was pretty as well, but I don’t see any great difference in philosophy, policy, or values between him and his immediate predecessors and successors.

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By Rontruth, July 2, 2009 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment

Inherit….There would be no need for me to imagine seeing anything. I was NOT there. You know what? Ill bet you weren’t either.

You attempt to postulate a scientific scenario to support what the witnesses, themselves, did not see or hear. Any scientific study of an event such as the Kennedy murder has to be begun, predicated if you will, on the statements of those who were there and saw and heard, and reported what they saw and heard. You take a pie that so high in the sky that you can’t see it, even though the people in a nearby jet fighter saw it, and you say you can use physics to say that that physical science can be used to say that the pie was made of apples with white topping on top, when the guys in the aircraft were the ones who tossed the pie out of their plane, and they said the pie they tossed out was made with cherries,

You see, Inherit, the pilot and others on board the jet fighter know because they were there. They saw what went into the pie. You and I simply were not there.

Get it?

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By Inherit The Wind, July 2, 2009 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Ron,

Go with ET and the extra-terrestrials as the shooters.

Your meticulous attention to nonsense and refusal to accept basic physics is not my problem.

You remind me of Lowell, inventing whole civilizations on Mars and swearing to the day of his death that he could see the evidence of them in the canals through his telescope.

Bye!

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By Rontruth, July 2, 2009 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad:
The fact that he said that there was more to tell, is worth as much as Gerald Ford’s admission that, as a leading member of the Warren Commission, he did indeed order the Commission’s medical illustrator to move upward by several inches the wound from where it appeared in the autopsy photos. He admitted that to investigators working for the Assassination Records Review Board in 1995. Yet old man, Bush, Sr. still chants that “a loan gunman assassinated President Kennedy.”

Did your uncle write a book, or have one written and published recently about the Secret Service and the fact that President Kennedy, just before the Texas trip, said he didn’t want, speaking of southern agents whom he did not like or trust, when he said, “those damned charlatans on the rear of my vehicle?” Kennedy really liked that man, and said of him that, if he went anywhere, he would want the new guy at the White House detail to go with me.”

I’m ordering his book if I can remember the name I saw of it in an advertisement on google or anoither engine.

God bless

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By Sepharad, July 2, 2009 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Just checking in, not quite ready to rejoin the “real” world as opposed to granddaughters-24/7 world.

KDelphi & garth, I’m no fan of Ted Kennedy either, for many reasons, but whatever kind of health plan we end up with it’ll probably be slightly better than it would’ve been without his involvement (mainly because of the sentimental efficacy of the Old Boy network).

Inherit and Rontruth, I don’t doubt there was some sort of conspiracy behind JFK’s murder but it’ll never be figured out. (In general I don’t believe in popular conspiracy theories, whether alien abduction or 9/11.) JFK was different though. My uncle had just begun as deputy-director of the Secret Service about then and the killing broke his heart; he worshipped Kennedy. For years before and after the Kennedy assassination, as a journalist, I’d been pestering him about info on CIA (the agency that an enraged Kennedy said he was going to break into a thousand pieces) and for years he’d been saying he’d say nothing to me because I’d just get into trouble far worse than getting stuck in jail overnight for voter registration down South.  (Probably true.) He was a patriot but had no love for the CIA, and that’s all I ever knew, though a couple times he said that he’d been wrong and we’d been right about how far the agency would go. He promised that when he retired and IF I ever stopped being a journalist he’d tell me more (though I’m pretty sure he would not have), but the question is moot: by the time he retired and I was a safe and sane history writer and editor, he’d developed Alzheimers.

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By Rontruth, July 1, 2009 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

Inherit…
Please don’t accuse what you are saying about physics as having anything to do with the Kennedy assassination. Your entire premise is flawed. You attempt to create a scientific basis for what doctors have now said is evidence of a shot from behind as well as from in front within 1/500th of a second of each other.

But, you and I, and 74% of Americans have seen and heard nearly all the witnesses, on film, who stood anywhere near the grassy knoll, as well as all of the other home movie films of the movement of JFK’s head, but have now heard the witnesses who saw and heard, and spoke about it on local radio and TV stations. They all said the kill shot came from behind the picket fence.

The “equal reaction” would not be in a direction against the incoming bullet, but the “reaction” would be in the direction that the bullet is traveling in. Now, to salve your WC-inflamed nerves, Charles Nicoletti, James Files’ Chicago mob supervisor, shot from the second floor of the Daltex building directly behind Kennedy’s limousine. A low trajectory shot, it entered the president’s head very high up near the crown of the head, and began to push Kennedy’s head forward, with a 2-frame movement of blood forward, but a simultaneous shot from 10 feet down the fence line toward the triple underpass bridge, that was fired by James E. Files at approximately 1/500th of one second after Nicoletti’s shot, struck Kennedy in the right temple above his right eye, killing him.

That shot from Nicoletti from behind at a low, almost horizontal trajectory, is what quicly moved JFK’s head forward by 1.4 inches before the forward movement was interrupted by the equally high velocity shot fired by Files from the fence.

In 1987, an old, darkened bullet shell was found under several inches of soil near the picket fence, with indentation marks near the open end.

They took it to a TV station that reported it only once. Then, they took it to Dallas Police, but with no interest. Rademacher put it away, in case anything about the Kennedy assassination might come to light.

Files, then 48 years old, after a long time running from Chicago police and Federal authorities for criminmal auto theft, and truck hijacking to sell the merchandise on board at local mob run businesses, was caught when FBI undercover agents bought some of the stolen items from him.

Another FBI agent recalled, and had a note to prove it, having been given a tip by an FBI informant who infiltrated Files’ in another illegal operation, a chop-shop operation out of Chicago, taking cars to Dallas to sell to mob owned used car dealers there. When the FBI agent, whom Files trusted, drove Files through Dealey Plaza on their way out of town, Files made the statement that, “If the American people ever found out what really happened here, they wouldn’t be able to handle it.”

The note and tip given to the FBI by the informant, was given to the agent who visited Files after his arrest by Chicago police. The tip and note were given to a private investigative firm in Texas. They developed a relationship with Files by helping him with family connections, etc. while he was, and is, incarcerated after his conviction for attempted murder of the Chicago cop.

When Files’s friend, Joe West, the private investigator, died suddenly under what Files considered spurious circumstances, Files finally gave interviews, some of which lasted for several hours, and gave names of others, places and dates and times. He also told them that he had left his bullet shell on the stockade fence after biting down on it near the oriface of the shell.

The investigators took the casing to FIVE odontological forensics pathologists. All of them identified which human teeth made the indentation marks over the ridge by the oriface. Now, you can tell CIA assets, Gerald Posner and Vincent Bugliosi that NOW this case is closed. Oswald did NOT kill Kennedy. See the massive documentation at http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 1, 2009 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

There’s nothing funnier than a dedicated fanatic—as long as they don’t have any power.

Your Ronco theories are more full of holes than a tennis racket.  of course you will ignore them or try to work around them.

1) Simple physics.  An explosive spout of material causes the body to move in the opposite direction: “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.”  First, the tiny bullet hits JFK’s head, and applying Newton’s Law the head goes forward. As the bullet exits it creates a huge wound that explosively spews material forward, and, the JFK’s head, following Newton, now moves BACK!  The movement opposite to spewing material is seen from the microscopic explosion of cells to the unimaginably large explosions of materials from stars—and they ALL follow Newton. Even Kennedy.

2) Eisenhower, according to your conspiracy, set up something just before he left office diametrically opposite to his warning against the military-industrial complex speech—also just before he left office when he was VERY disillusioned by that same MIC.

Oops.

Go for the time-shifting space aliens version—it’s infinitely more believable.

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By Rontruth, July 1, 2009 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,
That is true. In fact, the Kennedy document, NSAM 273 was first drafted five days BEFORE Kennedy was killed by the order of those who wanted the Viatnam war. That order effectively reversed Kennedy’s withdrawal order to start and complete the US withdrawal from Vietnam by the end of 1965. The fact that Johnson had to have known in advance of the reversal order (no one did anything that would invol ve Johnson before they clearly told Johnson about it. No one!

Kennedy saw the Vietnam conflict as a no-win for anyone scenario. Those who massively profit from lying wars, such as was Vietnam through LBJ’s (and the CIA’s) Gulf of Tonkin incidents red flag op, had other ideas. To them, to stand against any war they wanted, because such wars financially helped the corporate weapons manufacturers, they felt was treason. They had, and have today, an unconstitutional view of what America is and stands for.

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By Anarcissie, July 1, 2009 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

I’ve mentioned this before, but I suppose it doesn’t matter:  when Kennedy took office, there were about 1100 American military people in Vietnam, and their role was strictly advisory.  On the day Kennedy died, there were about 17,000, and they had taken direct part in some military operations against the Viet Cong.  Furthermore, the U.S. military had begun training in earnest for operations in terrain like Indochina’s.  Johnson inherited Kennedy’s cabinet and advisors, and they pressed for a continued build-up in the American presence and more direct involvement in the war.  While Kennedy’s policies were within the framework set up by Truman, Marshall and Acheson, his administration was much more aggressive than Eisenhower’s (which was part of his stock in trade when he was running for election—he was going to “get America moving again.”)  If Kennedy was killed because of his policies, I think it’s just as likely that he was killed because they were too aggressive rather than too conservative.  But I think both of these possibilities are pretty low on the probability scale.

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By Night-Gaunt, July 1, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

Kennedy was dead before the major phase of Viet-Nam started. It was his successor Johnson who did the escalations.

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By Rontruth, July 1, 2009 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

Oh my doodness sakes alive.
First, Night-Gaunt, Kennedy had the Constitution to respect. It states that this country must respect the treaties it signs. The UN Charter is/was then just such a treaty.

Second, he had no choice but to let it “go ahead.” It went “ahead” quite on it’s (the CIA’s) own steam. He was gone, and was contacted a few hours after the invasion was ordered by Dulles when Dulles lied to the lower-downs in the CIA about Kennedy’s having given go-ahead orders which, in fact, he never gave.

3. Kennedy had been warned by Eisenhower that the invasion had to be kept covert. That is, the Soviets were not to find out about the invasion’s CIA/ie US connections. Ike knew that Soviet premier Kruschev had traveled to cuba and signed a mutual defense treaty with Castro. It would have required Soviet military, and even nuclear retaliation if the US attacked Cuba for any reason.

Those are the reasons Kennedy, as would have hopefully been the case if Nixon had he, instead of Kennedy been President then.

As far as the Soviet Union goes with Reagan, there were two ways of obtaining change. One was the slower, more above-board, Constitutional way. The other way was the LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Bush way: CIA red flag operations, including lies to the American people about why wars are started, etc. As far as the implosion of communist rule in Russia goes, that was NOT brought about by Reagan or Bush. It was brought about by the messages of Radio Free Europe, the UN, Nato, etc. which were supported as much by Democratic, inc. Kennedy, presidencies as well as by Republican ones.

Kennedy on drugs. His doctor prescribed amphetamine as part of the treatment for his Addison’s disease. It was a way of keeping the adrenal hormones at fairly normal levels, while work on hormone supplementation for those particular hormones, was in it’s infancy. As far as other drugs are concerned, who knows?

Rumor has it, and Saturday Night Live refused to leave the subject alone, that Nancy Reagan was balling Frank Sinatra all the way through the “Reagan years,” when Reagan napped and Bush, Sr. set up the Iran-Contra scenario with the deal he made with representatives of the Ayatollah Khomeinni who ruled Iran when the 52 US hostages were taken in Teheran. Carter had all but crossed the “T’s” and dotted the “I’s” on the agreement that would have released the hostages. The agreement was that Iran would hold the hostages until after the 1980 US elections. They held them until 1 minute past Reagan’s inauguration.

It is either the long, hard-working way that leads to a comprehensive peace with little bloodshed. Or, the unConstitutional way, speedy as it can be, that kills hundreds of thousands of mostly innocent people and leads to the foreing policy impotency (if you will allow me) that Obama has been left with.

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By Anarcissie, July 1, 2009 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

If Kennedy was not in control of his own government, and thus not responsible for the Bay of Pigs or the beginning of the major phase of the war in Vietnam, then there was no need to assassinate him.

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By Rontruth, July 1, 2009 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

Anarcissi:
The Bay of Pigs invasion, conceived during the last year and a half of the Eisenhower administration, and passed on to Kennedy, is a good example in point. Kennedy was very reluctant, in spite of his strong words against Castro during the fourth televised debate with Nixon, to allow the invasion to go forward. In fact, when General Charles Cabbel, on attachment to the CIA for the invasion by the Pentagon, as was the standing order to seek the president’s final approval for the invasion, went to the White House and other places, but found no President Kennedy.

Cabbel spoke with Allen Dulles and George Bissel, Director and Chief of Covert Operations in the Planning Directorate of the CIA, and they collectively went ahead and ordered the invasion to take place. Kennedy never did give his final approval to the plan. Later, he told his top aide, Ted Sorenson, that he would “shred the CIA into a thousand pieces and throw the pieces to the winds.”
They not only lied to him about the ill-advised invasion’s chances of success. They lied to the officers and men in the field, saying that Kennedy had given final approval, when in real fact, he had done no such thing.

That is why Kennedy fired the top three men at CIA headquarters, which is a large part of why the CIA, the CIA/mob-led anti-Castro Cuban exile terrorists joined with Chicago mobsters and provided the guns of Dealey Plaza. The end of the Cuban Missile Crisis was the final bullet placed in the “suitcases” of James Files, the man who fired the deadly headshot, the one that ended Kennedy’s life, from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza.

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By Night-Gaunt, July 1, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

The question is why did Kennedy not support the attack Eisenhower originally set up or cancel it? Instead he let it go without any air support so it would be doomed to fail. No chance of success. A curious thing no?

What of those stories of Kennedy experiencing LSD and that was changing his mind about Cuba, the Cold War, the Federal Reserve and staying in Viet-Nam? All of those reasons could have gotten him killed in the first place. Johnson, however carried on to his own political doom. Only when our ‘Great Savior’ Reagan came on the scene did the wall come down and the Soviet Empire imploded.

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By Anarcissie, July 1, 2009 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Rontruth:
’... your government and mine, which worked so hard to cover up the fact that the CIA and organized crime were in an alliance, begun in the 1950’s, to eradicate communism from the western hemisphere, and saw JFK, who took stands against the CIA’s planned wars of choice ...’

Like the Bay of Pigs?

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By ardee, June 30, 2009 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

colin2626262, June 29 at 8:38 am #

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

That’s a good verse for us all to remember
.............................

You more than anyone else here I wager….

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By Rontruth, June 30, 2009 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

When looking at the film made by Abraham Zapruder of the Kennedy killing, if you get a digitally clear version of it, and as you see the limousine moving past Jean Hill and Mary Ann Moorman (the lady who took the famous Polaroid photo at 1/6th of a second after Kennedy was struck in the head), the limousine moves past them. When the shots were fired, Mary Ann took her photo.

When the first shot among the last three shots that were fired, it came from behind, hit JFK at the top back part of his head, his head begins to move forward, but within about 1/100th of a second, or even sooner, the head is struck by a shot from the picket fence on the knoll about the limousine, blowing the president’s head backward and to his left.

For people who care about the swift change from supposed wars of self defense, to wars of choice (“pre-emption,”) that all began during the Zapruder film and what it captured, it is important to understand that when the last three shots were fired, the reflections of those shots was forever captured, on film, in the reflections of the muzzle flashes that can easily be seen in the well-buffed silver chrome that surrounds the front windshield above and outside where Secret Service Agent, Roy Kellerman was sitting.

Why is it important? Because your government and mine, which worked so hard to cover up the fact that the CIA and organized crime were in an alliance, begun in the 1950’s, to eradicate communism from the western hemisphere, and saw JFK, who took stands against the CIA’s planned wars of choice, including Vietnam, paid the mob and CIA Cuban Operation 40 assassins to kill Kennedy. The resistance to the war in Vietnam ended on November 22, 1963.

What followed that date was a pre-planned build-up to a major confict that by 1965, at one point involved more than 500,000 US soldiers “in country” at the same time. 60,000 US soldiers killed, 350,000 wounded, 550,000 hooked on hard, dangerous drugs, and between 1,250,000 and 1,500,000 innocent Vietnamese were killed.

And, with more recent releases of declassified CIA documents from the National Archives, the “Gulf of Tonkin Incidents” were NOT attacks by North Vietnamese boats on US ships at sea. They WERE a CIA-staged assault on our own ships! Kennedy knew of these plans and, with the lying the CIA did to him about the great chances the Bay of Pigs invasion would succeed (and the CIA went ahead with it even though General Charles Cabbel had NOT obtained Kennedy’s final approval to go ahead with the invasion, Cabbel ordered it anyway, Kennedy said he would “Shred the CIA into a thousand pieces and throw the pieces to the winds.” (Ted Sorenson, JFK’s top advisor)

Now you know why the CIA and their buddies in the Texas oil industry, the mob, the anti-Castro Cuban exile community, and rightwing extremist groups all found it so easy to go through the one man who stood to lose the most if Kennedy survived, Lyndon Johnson, and all one has to do from their is follow the 2007 release by St. John Hunt, and the mob information at http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com to know who the shooters behind the picket fence were and who they worked for, with support from Operation 40 “kill Castro” members, more recently protected by US President George W. Bush. Porter Goss was a member of Operation 40 at the time JFK was killed by members of Operation 40. Bush, Jr. made him CIA Director in 2003 when news of LBJ’s involvement in the assassination became public knowledge through the History Channel’s 40th Anniversary presentation of that evidence in Nigel Turner’s “The Guilty Men.”

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By colin2626262, June 29, 2009 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

That’s a good verse for us all to remember.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 26, 2009 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

Read “Soldiers as Crusaders” for a new thread and a longtime threat to us all. I did warn all of you!

It could happen here. It almost did in 1934 and it could happen in the next few years. Only the war will be against us first to ‘put us on the straight and narrow’ before moving on to evangelize and destroy or take over whatever peoples and resources the new empire will need to ‘spread the word of the Great Commission’ out of a barrel of a gun like always. Only with no democratic impediments to them. No Congress will thwart them next time.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 25, 2009 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, well, they are gonna “discover” that Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett were both killed by the CIA and Israel.

At least “The Contingent will.

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By KDelphi, June 24, 2009 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Well said, Night Guant and Anarcisie.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 24, 2009 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

“Military chaplains, a majority of whom are evangelical Christians, defend the life of the unborn, tout America as a Christian nation and eagerly bless the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as holy crusades. The hollowness of their morality, the staggering disconnect between the values they claim to promote, is ripped open in war.”Chris Hedges

That is the kind of Christianity that is being promulgated throughout our country and also around the world. Usually through a corporation or a cluster bomb. In our country they are “steeple jacking” other denominations like a parasite, converting them to their way of muscular mystical theology. That threatens everyone far more than the reactionary groups like al-Quada who came about & respond to our actions with some of their own. Just look at how we are helping Pakistan to fall apart. Occupation of Iraq and continue to threaten Iran without basis.

The Dominionist types liked the Crusades and the Inquisition and use them as templates from torture to terrorism and propaganda to get their way. Only backed by the latest in technology and techniques of military, surveillance and subversion marketing to aid in doing so.

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By ardee, June 24, 2009 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

ITW,

Perhaps you missed the cited reference to the new time span and the inability of the marksman to duplicate the feat within even the new parameterws:

Modern analysis of a digitally enhanced Zapruder film suggests that the first, second, and final shot may have taken 8.3 seconds.

Many of CBS’s 11 volunteer marksmen, who (unlike Oswald) had no prior experience with a properly “sighted” Carcano, were able to hit the test target two times in under the time allowed. The only man who scored three hits was a firearms examiner from Maryland by the name of Howard Donahue.

The full name of the rifle , by the by, is a “Mannlicher-Carcano”. A piece of junk that Italy’s military stopped using in 1940.

In any case, neither you or I is going to solve this mystery today or anytime at least until the Warren Report is unsealed. So I am going with aliens as the most interesting if the least plausable solution.

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By Anarcissie, June 24, 2009 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

colin2626262:
‘Anarcisse,
I can see you’re extremely perceptive, yet I also noticed your comments about wanting to be rational.  Some things are beyond reason.  If you were religious, you’d know that, and you wouldn’t criticize me for pointing out obvious spiritual truths.  I wasn’t trying to judge anyone.  You misunderstood what I wrote.  God is the judge. ...’

Many things are beyond reason, but your comments are not.  If you are limited and fallible, as I suspect you are, then your understanding of what God does, as well as of the rest of the universe, is limited and fallible, and instead of claiming to represent God’s judgement of others you ought to follow one of the more famous commands of the founder of your religion, which I’ll bet I don’t have to quote.

However, if you must pass judgement on somebody, I’d like to see you work over the professing Christians who supported the war criminals Bush and Cheney and the rest of that gang.  I think 70% of Evangelicals supported Bush in 2004, after it was well known that his wars were based on lies and that torture and murder were being practiced by his administration.  Don’t these people need a touch of the lash?

And it may return us to the subject, “war in sin”, and get us away from the useless tedium of YACT (Yet Another Conspiracy Theory).

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By Rontruth, June 23, 2009 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

Inherit:
You might try looking at the JFK mob/CIA hit-job for what it actually was. You said you didn’t know if Oswald was the man behind the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. Now, let us all put on our thinking caps as our third grade teacher told all of us to do when we were little guys.

See YouTube George DeMohrenschildt saying Oswald actually like Kennedy and his family. The film of George DeMohrenschildt saying that he had helped get Oswald the job at the TSBD before the JFK assassination. He was a long-time friend and once worked for oilman, George H. W. Bush (the Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency referred to by Hoover in his Nov. 29, 1963 Memo to the State Departnment, asking Bush to find out what the pro and anti-Castro Cubans in Miami were doing in the hours immediately after the assassination.) It referred to an oral briefing by one of Hoover’s Special Agents on Saturday, Nov. 23, 1963, in which Hoover is seeking information about the Miami anti-Castro situation.

But, now Mr. Bush had always denied he had any connection to the CIA at the time in question. The reason that Hoover knew about Bush and the CIA is that Hoover also knew about the CIA’s Operation 40 kill-Castro group of assassins and explosives experts. He knew that Bush and Bill Liedke, Bush’s oil business partner at Zapata Oil/Zapata Offshore, had recruited Cuban exiles into Op 40 and other terrorist organizations set up to eliminate Castro.

Oswald was Hoover’s gun-running-sell guns to the training camps in Florida and north of New Orleans, La., FBI informant, Lee Harvey Oswald. This was in Summer, 1963 when Ozzy thought he was working for the FBI in New Orleans, and secretly reporting to John Quigley, his FBI contact in New Orleans. He was telling Hoover’s bureau about the locations and sizes of the at that time illegal training camps

On the other side of things, Ozzy also handed out pro-Castro leaflets on Canal St., New Orleans, while reporting to Hoover’s FBI about what the pro-Castro Cubans were doing. He did all this at Hoover’s orders. Hoover did them all at Kennedy’s orders.
Ozzy in essence worked for Kennedy.

The YouTube presentation is, as I recall it, George DeMohrenschildt says Lee Harvey Oswald liked Kennedy.
That, plus Judyth Vary Baker’s videotaped testimony about her rather close and personal friendship with Lee Oswald in the Summer of 1963, puts two of the main pieces of what Oswald’s CIA and FBI roles were. To understand Oswald, you would need to understand what he was doing, for whom, and the fact that his role placed him in an extremely dangerous double agent situation because his role involved selling CIA-obtained (mostly from the mob) guns to anti-Castro CIA/Cuban exile terrorist training camps.

He reported on them to the FBI as Informant S-2-179 at $200.00 per month. James Files, the now proven real shooter from behind the fence on the knoll, knew Oswald and had passed guns from Chicago’s organzied crime syndicate’s stolen guns, and brought them to Clinton, Louisiana, and transfered them to Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald took them to 544 Camp Street, Guy Bannister’s offices as part of a CIA training activity involving Cuban exile recruits whom Oswald helped train. If you go to http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com, click on Luis Posada (Carriles), it will take you to a page with Bush,Jr. and Luis Posada (riding in Bush’s shoe; a little on the small side)

Scroll down the page, past Frank Sturgis and Marita Lorenz. Just below their lovy-dovy hopeful looks of mutual admiration, you will see a place to click. It says something about seeing a film clip of Operation 40 members. There you will see Oswald step forward and speak with Operation 40 leading member, Frank Sturgis. Oswald is attempting to sell a gun to Sturgis.

Sturgis is one of the people inside the two cars headed to Dallas with men and guns in them. Oswald was playing a CIA role as a right-wing gun-selling little ole varmint.  Definitely right-wing. Not a lefty!

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

RD:

Huh? With the enhanced timing of 8.3 seconds it becomes easily possible—you cite the OLDER tests but not the newer ones.

Dig up the NOVA special on it.  It’s quite enlightening.  I trust NOVA a helluva lot more than the conspiracy theorists.  Nor do I take the WC report at face value or even as a reasonable try.

But 8.3 seconds changed EVERYTHING.  It eliminates the magic bullet. It eliminates the time problem to cock and aim the rifle (I thought it was a Mannlicher something or other).  It eliminates the dictaphone belt of a motorcycle’s radio transmission.  It eliminates the grassy knoll. It eliminates any REASONABLE doubt that the shots that killed JFK were fired from that window with that gun.

Can Oswald be put behind the gun? Probably.  Definitely? I don’t know.  Did he have motive? Probably. What was it? I don’t know.

Castro certainly wasn’t behind it…he said, after the assassination that only a fool would rejoice because systems, not men, are the enemy.

But the conspiracy buffs rant on…to a declining audience.  I kinda like the ones about the ETs being behind it.

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By ardee, June 23, 2009 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, June 23 at 1:18 pm #

As I have noted before I am far from a conspiracy theorist. But I am a marksman (Thanks Uncle) and am familiar with the FBI findings that their own guys could not duplicate the rapid fire Oswald supposedly achieved with that same weapon. The Carcano (Italian) rifle he used had a loose bolt , making it difficult to rechamber rounds. Italy stopped using the darn thing because of poor performance.

It is also a known fact among hunters and other trained shooters that the the shot from above is the hardest one and especially when the target is moving.

Skeptics have argued that expert marksmen could not duplicate Oswald’s alleged feat in their first try during re-enactments by the Warren Commission (1964) and CBS (1967). In those tests the marksmen attempted to hit the target three times within 5.6 seconds. This time span has been heavily disputed. The Warren Commission itself estimated that the time span between the two shots that hit President Kennedy was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed (assuming the first and third shots hit the president), then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If the first or third shot missed, that would give a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.[27] Modern analysis of a digitally enhanced Zapruder film suggests that the first, second, and final shot may have taken 8.3 seconds.

Many of CBS’s 11 volunteer marksmen, who (unlike Oswald) had no prior experience with a properly “sighted” Carcano, were able to hit the test target two times in under the time allowed. The only man who scored three hits was a firearms examiner from Maryland by the name of Howard Donahue. The CBS test is disputed by Michael Griffith, who says: “In the CBS rifle test, not one of the eleven expert shooters scored two hits on the first attempt, and seven of them failed to do so on any attempt. This is especially revealing because the CBS test was the most realistic to date.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

So, I guess now I AM a conspiracy theorist..drat.

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By KDelphi, June 23, 2009 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

garth

As Kevin Phillips said in “Bad Money” (the book—I havent read all of it yet) p.172

“As Daniel Gross hypothesized in ‘Bull Run: Wall Street, the Democrats, and the New Politics of Personal Finance” (2000), a new “democritization of money”—the convergence of pensions fund power, broad public ownerhsip of mutual funds, and supposed Clinton administration talent, had turned the mass of individual investors into the new ‘momied interest’....thus, he argued, ’ the Democrats can be the party of Wall street and Main Street, of the rich and the poor’....
“...in the words of former Sec of Labor, Robert Reich, ‘You might think that Dems would do something about the anomaly in the tax code that treats the earnings of private equity and hedge funds managers as capital gains rather than ordinary income, and taxes then at 15 %.....But Senate Demns recently backed off of a proposal to do just that. Why? It turns out that Dems are getting more campaign contributions these daYs from hedge fund and private equity partners than Republicans are getting…”

Clinton was wrong—you CANNOT be the party of both Wall St and Main St—if you ever could, you cannot be now.

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By Blueboy1938, June 23, 2009 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

Athiests, colin2626262?  You have no right to call anybody you don’t know an atheist, or anything else if they haven’t already self-identified as such.  Dismissing critical analysis of what you have actually written in your posts by categorizing them as necessarily coming from “atheists” is equivalent to schoolyard name-calling.  I mean no disrespect for those who actually are atheists.  Only that you, colin2626262, are clearly trying to use that term as a pejorative to hide behind, in lieu of addressing the issues.

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By garth, June 23, 2009 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

Ya talk about conspiracies:

“Geithner’s paternal grandfather, Paul Herman Geithner (1902–1972), emigrated with his parents from the German town of Zeulenroda to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1908.[7] His father, Peter F. Geithner, is the director of the Asia program at the Ford Foundation in New York. During the early 1980s, Peter Geithner oversaw the Ford Foundation’s microfinance programs in Indonesia being developed by S. Ann Dunham-Soetoro, President Barack Obama’s mother, and they met in person at least once.[8] Timothy Geithner’s mother, Deborah Moore Geithner, is a pianist and piano teacher in Larchmont, New York where his parents currently reside. Geithner’s maternal grandfather, Charles F. Moore, was an adviser to President Dwight D. Eisenhower and served as Vice President of Public Relations from 1952-1964 for Ford Motor Company”

For more explanation of the Ford Foundation, read Webster Tarpley’s books on Obama that came out before the election.  They tried to warn us of what was coming.

These interlocked directorates are what Kevin Phillips tried to point out numerous times on the Bill Moyers show in 2004.  No one in the media took him up on his challenge.

A new set of identities, different last names, these are all patterns of a crime syndicate.

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By Rontruth, June 23, 2009 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

Oh. Goodness, gracious sakes alive. We have here nothing, in the final analysis from Inherit than pure speculation about Oswald. This attitude that one can simply quote the WC, which reached the conlusion that Oswald had to be the “assassin” before it had investigated the case, with information the DPD had received the very afternoon,through Hoover’s FBI and sent to them from the Agency (CIA) that would not have had a grain of salt’s worth if it had not set up Oswald after it discovered Oswald reporting to the now punked Hoover’s FBI about their illegal anti-Castro Cuban exile terrorist acts against Castro in violation of JFK’s orders to the contrary.

The problem with folks who claim “I don’t believe anything,” is that they make all kinds of claims about things they say they do not believe.” The CIA uses people like that. In fact, they love people like that. George H. W. Bush is one sort-of individual who comes to mind.

Someone needs to help Inherit, get back to and touch the earth. He is, as Bob Dylan once sang, “Blowin’ In The Wind.” It asks a lot of important questions. But, it also asks people to believe in something. Otherwise, it is just wind.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

Have fun…the dictabelt, of a radio broadcast from a police motorcycle, has been discounted for the timing of the shots.

You rehash the same old arguments, all of which have been shown to be spurious.

JFK was shot from the window of the Book Depository.  Arguments against the compelling evidence are spurious and well-discounted.  Nobody will or should take you seriously if you continue with the multiple-shooter scenario—The “Grassy Knoll” fantasy is nothing but crap. 

JFK was almost definitely shot by Oswald, who was certainly capable of killing him with that rifle from that window and with the corrected timing. Oswald had a VERY curious history.  Your efforts would be far better suited to:
A) determining if Oswald was the gunman in that window.
B) If he was, what and why was he there?  THAT is your REAL conspiracy.  I don’t think the “Crazy lone gunman” myth fits Oswald.  He was more likely the arrowhead on the arrow, but not the arrow, the bow or the bowman.

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By garth, June 23, 2009 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

Thanks Rontruth for your explanation on the Kennedy assassination and the War in Vietnam.

I, on the other hand, think the War in Vietnam and the running of this governemt has more to do with olicharchical familial and school ties than one might expect.

Consider McGeorge Bundy.  He’s the guy who, at first, recommended strikes on Cuba in the so clled Cuban Missile Crisis.
“Raised in Boston, Massachusetts, Bundy came from a wealthy family long involved in politics. His mother, Katherine Lawrence Putnam, was the daughter of two Boston Brahmin families listed in the social register. His father, Harvey Hollister Bundy, was from Grand Rapids, Michigan and was a diplomat who helped implement the Marshall Plan. Bundy attended the elite Dexter School in Brookline, Massachusetts, the Groton School, and Yale University one year behind his brother William. At Yale, he was a member of the Skull and Bones secret society”.

The members of Skull and Bones literally took over the CIA in the 50s and 60s, with George H. W. Bush being an early member.  They are a bunch of amoral tories who seem to have a cockeyed plan about how this country from the days of its founding.
We, as merely chattel, are thought of in a way they used to say about Frank Sinatra, “simply guests and onlookers in his world.”

Some choose to sit back, ignore the facts and go along for the ride.  I appreciate it that you do not.

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By Rontruth, June 23, 2009 at 8:14 am Link to this comment

Inherit:
You mentioned “the t imning of the shots.” The WC-theorists (which is all they actually were: theorists) got their “timing of the shots” from the Officer McClain-to-Police dictabelt recorder, which when the “conspiracy theorists” present the obvious four-to-five shots presented on the tape, the WC theorists then say that McClain was not where the conspiracy theorists say he was.

The WC liars, which by his own admission, as I included in my previous post and you didn’t even refer to in your rebuttal, included Gerald R Ford, merely refer to things, when they wish it to support their lies, then say the same thing did not exist when we present what their “evidence” actually shows.

You do the same thing as the WC, which as I indicate above has now been conclusively proven by the words of one of it’s leading members, to have been based on lies. Judges and juries, in murder cases, accept the statements of witnesses who were present at the scene of such a crime. They do this through a process of what is called “corroboration.” Do the witnesses closes to the scene where the crime took place, basically sunstantiate each other’s testimony.

In the instance of the JFK killing, they did not even know the sequence of the shots except on the basis of what eye and ear witnesses told them. They did not know of the McClain-to-Police dictabelt recording until several years after the assassination. Their “report” was based on the testimony of those “bad” winesses, but they only took the testimony of witnesses who stood near the Daltex building, from which we conspiracy “theorists” know from James Files and from the intelligence-connected Steve Revell, one shot to the head was fired.

Nearly all of the witnesses, now acceptable because the WC took some, but not most, of the witness testimony from just those who could at least support the idea that at least one shot came from hehind them, but left out the testimony of the mass of witnesses who ran up the grassy knoll as seen on many films and in photographs because their testimony, as seen on TV interview shows, said the kill shot to the head came from behind them as they stood facing Elm Street on the north side, looking south at the JFK limousine as it passed by.

Why? Because, as based on the “yellow legal note-pad of information gathered at a news conference on Monday, Nov. 25, 1963, and given to acting Attorney-General, Nicholas Katzenback, stated: “The public must be convinced that Oswald was the assassin; that he acted alone and DID NOT have accomplices.” Those were the orders of a man that now everyone who has listened to and read the evidence gathered from a number of disparate people (they did not know each other), was really the mastermind of the JFK killing. Kennedy’s vice president, Lyndon Johnson.

It is time for those who say they believe nothing, but who state that they “accept” what those who have already admitted they lied about, to either say they do not “accept” (to accept something is saying one believes it), or to simply say they do not know, one way or the other. Time for bindness parading as acceptance but not belief, in the case of the murder of a president of the United States, to end.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 23, 2009 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

Rontruth:

I don’t believe ANYTHING if I can help it.

This is your hobby and your obsession. Obviously you have ignored the substantive evidence that the WC’s assumptions of the timing of the shots were simply wrong, which led to all the conspiracy theories based on the magic dancing bullet.

Fix the timing and the bullet flies straight through the President and Gov. Connelly who was turned at that moment, which probably saved his life.

A police chief isn’t a forensics doctor and eyewitnesses are notoriously bad.  The forensic doctors many years later re-evaluated their results and saw NO discrepancies.  BTW, their conclusions and the Zapruder film, with the timing of the shots corrected, leaves no room for realistic doubt.

If I have to chose whom to believe, I much prefer PBS’s NOVA to conspiracy buffs, theorists and hobbyists.

But have fun with your hobby.

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By Rontruth, June 22, 2009 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind:
Just curious, and since I am such an addict to the intricate study of the JFK assassination and the long shadow it has cast over American politics and the fascism that has sent our young into battle only to find out that their “government” lied to them about why, here’s my question:

I’ve seen Dallas Police Chief, Jesse Curry, on film, saying that, (and he was looking out the back window, as can be seen in one of newsman, Ike Altgen’s photographs taken when the last three of the five shots fired that day, Curry said to investigator, Anthony Summers, “It would just seem that, from the direction of the blood and the brain matter from the president from one of the shots, that the shot would have to have been fired from in front, rather than from behind.”

He was the Police Chief. He was an eyewitness to where the actual kill shot came from. All of the other hard evidence, rather than the Warren Commission’s now disproven lies, shows the same thing. Let me ask you, do you believe what the police chief said about what he observed?

How much proof do you need? How about Warren Commission leading member, then Rep. Gerald R. Ford, when in 1995, after the Assassination Records Review Board discovered 40,000 of Ford’s hand-written Warren Commission notes in which he expressly ordered the change of Kennedy’s back would from where it appeared in the autopsy photos, to a point in the back of Kennedy’s neck in the Commission’s medical illustration of the wound? The illustrations are the only depiction of the back wound on the dead president found in the Commission’s report.

It was that wound that convicted Oswald in the public’s collective mind.

Do you still believe the Warren Commission report? What do you believe is true here?

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By Inherit The Wind, June 22, 2009 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

Colin:

Don’t take it personally.  I have NO respect for the concept of “belief”, period. It doesn’t matter if it’s your beliefs or someone else’s.

“Belief” is acceptance of something as true without proof and without DESIRE for proof.  Think about it: If you think you can prove God exists, then do so and abandon your faith. You won’t need it in the light of PROOF. 

But if you can’t then you accept something unproven or even unprovable as fact, and that is something I simply cannot do. The God you believe in gave me a brain and reason as my (and your) sole means of survival.  I don’t have the speed of a cheetah, the strength of an elephant, the jaws of a lion or shark, or even the prolificness of a mosquito.  I (and you) solely have our brains and ability to reason to allow us to survive.

Even our closest evolutionary “relative” (that isn’t extinct), the chimpanzee, for all its intelligence and physical power (far, FAR greater than ours) is helpless against OUR human ability to reason.

I despise “belief” as anti-human and anti-humanity and try to root it out of myself wherever I find it.

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By Leefeller, June 22, 2009 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

“Leefeller, you are a silly man”. words of wisdom considering the source. 

Using opinions for judgments, may be wrong as well as correct Since I may not be a man but a transgendered servant of the mighty great onion, it should be known my opinions are never wrong, that is to say they are true, then they must always be correct.

Imbeciles unite for stupidity may be some peoples wisdom, a most worthy teacher as numbers of followers seems to portray.

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By colin2626262, June 22, 2009 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind,

You shouldn’t be surprised when someone defends himself after you insult his faith.  I shouldn’t have called you “a nothing.”  That was wrong of me.  Still, you had no respect for my beliefs, and you made that very clear.

Blueboy1938,

There’s no need to fight.  You might want to go to war with me, but I don’t want to go to war with you.

Anarcisse,

I can see you’re extremely perceptive, yet I also noticed your comments about wanting to be rational.  Some things are beyond reason.  If you were religious, you’d know that, and you wouldn’t criticize me for pointing out obvious spiritual truths.  I wasn’t trying to judge anyone.  You misunderstood what I wrote.  God is the judge.  I was simply stating what I know.  I wasn’t attributing evil to others because they disagreed with my beliefs.  God is where morality comes from.  You will be judged by God, not me.  I thought I made that clear.  I don’t enjoy arguing with people.  I’d rather have a civil conversation.  I’d rather be friends with everyone.  However, the reason I quoted from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians is that I can’t be friends with unbelievers, just like Paul couldn’t.  That would make me an unbeliever, and I never want to be like that again. 

Night-Gaunt,

I like Gandhi too.  I’m not sure if you realize that he could make that comment about Christians because he was himself Christ-like.  To answer your question, yes, I agree with the article by Chris Hedges.  I believe war is a sin, which should explain the comment I made about our soldiers.  There are no good wars, not even little ones between bloggers.

Peace

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By Rontruth, June 22, 2009 at 7:15 pm Link to this comment

I think Kennedy did the right thing by signing the Executive Order that would have banned the Federal Reserve Bank, whose loaned money is printed by Lloyd’s Bank of London, England as I understand it. That is what Kennedy wanted to end.

He told his top advisors that he, and this is a quote from Theodore Soenson, his top advisor, wanted to “tear the CIA into a thousand pieces and throw the pieces to the winds.” This was in response to the CIA’s lying to him about the probability of success with the Bay of Pigs invasion, and the Agency’s approval of the Pentagon’s “Operation Northwoods” project, which entailed anti-Castro Cuban exiles flying in repainted US WW11 bombers, making them look like Cuban air force aircraft, to bomb and kill enough Americans such that Kennedy would be forced to order an invasion of Cuba. Another one of those “RED FLAG” operations. Recall Bush, Jr. in the Downing Street Memo’s where he even thought to “have UN spy planes remarked to look like US war planes, so that Bush could then justify to the American people an attack on Iraq??

Kennedy wanted to reduce the power of international bankers, through their frontmen on Wall Street, and mega corporations whose owners were some of the wealthiest “families” on earth. He tried to do this with doing away with the US Federal Reserve Bank that loaned money to the US Government with little ole’ buckeroos printed in the United Kingdom in London.

He diligently worked, personally, to try to be sure that Israel did not get the nuclear bomh. He knew that it would lead to what has happened when Israel and CHINA cooperated in getting the bomb. Israel has yet to admit to the UN or anyone that is has what everone knows it has: the nuclear bomb. India has it. Then Packistan got it. How many others have worked at getting it since the warmongering wealthy world class fat cats killed Kennedy and blamed a little nobody who in fact was an informant to the FBI, and tried fooling the CIA into thinking he was working for them and their terrorist plots against Castro??

I would suggest that, if you don’t believe that part of the reason Kennedy was murdered in Dealey Plaza had to do with his order to end US involvement in Vietnam, then you might go to the site http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com and read what James Files said about the document that was prepared “five days” before Kennedy was killed, and which was printed and sent to Kennedy’s staff the day before the assassination. That was NSAM #273, that ordered the actual reversal of JFK’s withdrawal order. Check it out.

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By garth, June 22, 2009 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

By KDelphi, June 22 at 7:22 pm #
KDelphi,

I agree.  I think people feel bad for Kennedy because he has brain cancer.

Mrs Kopechne said in an interview several years ago that Kennedy never contacted them and never said he was sorry.  Nothing.

Maureen Dowd of the NY Times said her brother worked in the Capitol Building and delivered mail to JFKs office when he was a Senator.  The rule was that a mail boy was not to make eye contact with the Senator.  He was supposed to walk in with his head down and drop off the mail.

Where the fuck do these people get off?

Some “legacy”...

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By KDelphi, June 22, 2009 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

garth—I think people feel bad for Kennedy because he has brain cancer. I might feel worse for him if my dad hadnt died of the same kind of brain cancer, except he didnt get Kennedy’s health care..and neither will we—ever.

Some “legacy”...

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By garth, June 22, 2009 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Thanks KDelphi,

Thanks for the link, and thanks also for the ‘heads up’ on the disastrous Kennedy plan which was evaluated by the CBO.  In retrospect, that seems to be another ploy in the their overall plan, which is to pass a bill that moves all the costs to the public and maintains the tremendous profits for the insurance companies, MA and CT are after all, the capitals of insurance greed.  Kennedy learned well.  It’s fitting that he goes out with this disgraceful plan that does next to nothing for the health of the nation, but does everything for those who want to mount an attack on a simple solution. 

—Teddy, (Fatso) you were a bum when I saw you in high school before you ran for Congress and you’re a bum now.  All you’ve done that is anywhere near commendible is pay child support.—

I remember what it was like here in 2008.  If you were against Obama then something was wrong with you. Maybe they moved on.

After listening to Ravi Batra and others:  Get out of the stock market and stay out.  Salvage whatever you have to maintain you through the oncoming disaster.


Hang on!

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By KDelphi, June 22, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

garth—I tried to post a story about Michelle Obama’s position of the Bd of Univ of Chicago Hospitals back in 2008 and was hardily “reprimanded” for “questioning her”..hmmm…when I read this I knew that we would not recieve true ‘health care reform” from the Obamas….

August 23, 2008

BY TIM NOVAK AND CHRIS FUSCO Staff Reporters
Sen. Barack Obama’s wife and three close advisers have been involved with a program at the University of Chicago Medical Center that steers patients who don’t have private insurance—primarily poor, black people—to other health care facilities.

Michelle Obama—currently on unpaid leave from her $317,000-a-year job as a vice president of the prestigious hospital—helped create the program, which aims to find neighborhood doctors for low-income people who were flooding the emergency room for basic treatment. Hospital officials say such patients hinder their ability to focus on more critically ill patients in need of specialized care, such as cancer treatment and organ transplants.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1122691,CST-NWS-hosp23.article

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By garth, June 22, 2009 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

Barack Obama is a manufactured black.  If you fall for it, then shame on you.

At the risk of repeating myself:
“It’s a tale of poor minority patient-dumping in Chicago—with Michelle Obama’s fingerprints all over it. Mrs. Obama sold it as a way of outsourcing low-income care to other facilities as a way to “dramatically improve healthcare for thousands of South Side residents.”

It was repackaged as minority aid. Joe Stephens of The Washington Post wrote, “To ensure community support, Michelle Obama and others in late 2006 recommended that the hospital hire the firm of David Axelrod, who a few months later became the chief strategist for Barack Obama’s presidential campaign. Axelrod’s firm (ASK Public Strategies) recommended an aggressive promotional effort modeled on a political campaign—appoint a campaign manager, conduct focus groups, target messages to specific constituencies, then recruit religious leaders and other third-party ‘validators.’ They, in turn, would write and submit opinion pieces to Chicago publications.”

Some experts saw through Mrs. Obama and Axelrod. The University’s Medical Center hired ASK Public Strategies to promote Mrs. Obama’s initiative. Axelrod had the blessing of Chicago political guru Valerie Jarrett—now a White House senior adviser.

Axelrod’s idea was to rename the initiative after “internal and external respondents expressed the opinion that the word ‘urban’ is code for ‘black’ or ‘black and poor.’ ...Based on the research, consideration should be given to re-branding the initiative.”

Outrage exploded when a boy covered by Medicaid was turned away from the Medical Center. Dontae Adams’ mother, Angela, sought emergency treatment for him when a pit bull tore off his upper lip. Mrs. Obama’s hospital gave the boy a tetanus shot, antibiotics and Tylenol, and showed him the door. It took an hour-long bus ride to another hospital for surgery.

After that, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) blasted Mrs. Obama and Axelrod’s plan. They stated with “grave concerns that the University’s policy for emergency patients is dangerously close to ‘patient dumping,’ a made illegal by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)and reflected an effort to ‘cherry pick’ wealthy patients over poor.”
\+++
I was on a flight from the west coast in the early 60s, (I think it was 62.) sitting next to a young military man who said he was a member of MAAG Group, if memory serves, returning from Vietnam.  I said I’d never heard of Vietnam, and he looked at me squarely and said, “You will.”  Then he got the stewardess’s attention, ordered another bourbon, turned his head to the window and didn’t say another word.
Kennedy’s assassination was not a reprisal to his probable de-esacalation of the War in Vietnam, but to his projected dismantling of the Federal Reserve.

“On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. The Christian Law Fellowship has exhaustively researched this matter through the Federal Register and Library of Congress. We can now safely conclude that this Executive Order has never been repealed, amended, or superceded by any subsequent Executive Order. In simple terms, it is still valid.”

Leefeller, you are a silly man.

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By Night-Gaunt, June 22, 2009 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

Come clean, let go of your hate an then you may see the error of your ways. Your speech was certainly meant to hurt, to show how you see others who don’t see the way that you do. Build bridges of understanding from you? No, more like blowing them up and seeding them with mines to keep all others away who aren’t like you. Again it is you that make wrong to be right where black is white and the zebras get killed in the cross walk. Dialog begins with two and I started it but you cut it off.

The road that leads to war starts just like this. Cut off communication first then vilification of the “enemy” then eventually more martial actions. Brunn was a microcosm of how countries do it.

Did Brunn think like you at the beginning? I would say so. It is a bad road to be on and it won’t get better for you or us the longer you are on it. I don’t agree with Dawkins and the others who take a hard fundamentalist line against believers. It is just the mirror turning back the reflection of the same attitude, like yours, to them and me.

Tell me Colin2626262 what would Joshuah/Jesus have done in your place? I believe I agree with Gandhi on this. He found Christians disagreeable but liked the way Jesus dealt with people. How about you give it a try?

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By colin2626262, June 22, 2009 at 8:40 am Link to this comment

For those who made the comments about me being hateful and heartless and so on, I’m sorry you feel that way.  It just shows that for atheists, right is wrong, and wrong is right.  Everything is reversed in your world.  I pray for you.  I wish you well.

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By Anarcissie, June 22, 2009 at 7:05 am Link to this comment

garth:
’... The reasson why this is still important is that it was a coup of our government, from which we are still spiraling out of control and into Fascism. ...’

If there was a coup, then we ought to have seen some major changes in policy and personnel after the assassination.  But in fact, with historical perspective, we can see that Kennedy perpetuated the general policies he inherited and passed them on virtually unchanged to his successor.  And the same cabinet and party which had served Kennedy served his successor.  The only way people can make out a change is to concoct a fable about something Kennedy was supposedly going to do (get out of Vietnam) which had to be prevented, that is, try to replace something (the history of Kennedy’s actual actions) with nothing.  This is not very convincing.

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By Leefeller, June 22, 2009 at 6:59 am Link to this comment

An obsession or a fetish pursued with the resolve of a fanatic, ignores any argument, fact or truth. For they are right in their mind, no matter what. Issues seem to abound in this respect, it is no wonder we never seem to see daylight on any subjects or issues.

As usual a story, non truth or fantasy is proclaimed as a truth and it becomes in the mind of the fanatic a cause. Once a fanatic finds its cause logic, reason or enlightenment mean nothing for the fanatic is right no matter what.   

It all may be in the grand scheme of things from religion to 911 or the grassy knoll. One can believe in anything with certitude if reason is absent, for the comfort in their belief is most important to them. Reason would instill doubt, question the belief and thus the comfort.

As a child life is simple and comfortable because they do not know anything, lack of reason provides the same feeling for the fanatic. We return to Santa Clause, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.

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By garth, June 22, 2009 at 6:34 am Link to this comment

How about the little publicized fact that Oswald failed the gunpowder test, which revealed that he did not fire a gu, even after his supposed killing of Ofc. J.D. Tippet of the Dallas police?
Wayne Madsen of Wayne Madsen Reports has photos of someone who looks a lot like George H.W. Bush standing in front of the Book Depository in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. 
One of the alleged eyewitnesses in also front of the Depository claims to have heard amid the din of the crowd the rifle being reloaded repeatedly five stories up inside the open window.
The reasson why this is still important is that it was a coup of our government, from which we are still spiraling out of control and into Fascism.
Hell, we’re probably there already.  The government has been detached, unanchored from the rule of an informed electorate.

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By Inherit The Wind, June 22, 2009 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

JFK was murdered in 1963.  I was 8 and the President was in diapers. Some governors, senators and congresspersons weren’t even born yet. I’m now 54.  Most of the people involved in any way, shape or form are dead or retired.

I’ve never seen one shred of evidence to support the contention a) that Oswald didn’t fire on the President or b) that there was another shooter.

Lots of fantasies, conspiracy theories, half-baked phonying up of “evidence”, etc.  All of this ignores why Oswald was the killer and the strange events that lead to his being there.

But that’s STILL all now moot history and no more. And for many, it’s a hobby.

Colin, if God is love then it’s clear you are very far from reaching your God. Your hateful remarks about anyone who challenges YOU are like a self-proclaimed prophet that we are going to Hell.  Your remarks about soldiers who put their bodies and lives on the line for us, (even when that offer is abused by our leaders) is repugnant.

People with your level of fanaticism if they get power, start holding heresy trials.  Heresy trials usually result in the death of the accused—as we have seen down the ages.  To this DAY, people are killed and attacked for heresy, not just by Moslems but by “Christians” as well…Remember Gov. Palin’s preacher who claimed to have driven a witch out of her home?  He claimed to be “Christian”, too.

You would learn more from Mother Theresa than from whereever you’ve been studying.

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By garth, June 21, 2009 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

A line from a 60’s musical, I think it was “Hair”  goes,

“Prisoners in niggertown, it’s dirty little war..”

The following article is on Michelle Obama’s war on the poor at the University of Chicago Medical Center.

+++
“It’s a tale of poor minority patient-dumping in Chicago—with Michelle Obama’s fingerprints all over it.

Both Sen. Charles Grassley of (R-IA) and Rep. Bobby Rush of (D-IL) raised red flags about the outsourcing program run by the University of Chicago Medical Center. The hospital has nonprofit status and receives tax breaks in exchange for charity care.

In 2007, when Mrs. Obama was there, it spent $10 million on charity care - 1.3 percent of its total hospital expenses, according to an analysis performed for The Washington Post by the nonpartisan Center for Tax and Budget Accountability. Below the 2.1 percent average for nonprofit hospitals in Cook County.

Rush called for an investigation last week in after months of patient-dumping complaints, noting: “Congress has a duty to expend its power to mitigate and prevent this despicable practice from continuing in centers that receive federal funds.”

Mrs. Obama, a top executive at the hospital, helped design the plan to offload low-income patients with non-urgent health needs. Calling the scheme, “Urban Health Initiative,” Mrs. Obama sold it as a way of outsourcing low-income care to other facilities as a way to “dramatically improve healthcare for thousands of South Side residents.”

In fact, it was cost-cutting and favor-trading repackaged as minority aid. Clearing out the poor freed up room for insured patients.

Joe Stephens of The Washington Post wrote, “To ensure community support, Michelle Obama and others in late 2006 recommended that the hospital hire the firm of David Axelrod, who a few months later became the chief strategist for Barack Obama’s presidential campaign. Axelrod’s firm (ASK Public Strategies) recommended an aggressive promotional effort modeled on a political campaign—appoint a campaign manager, conduct focus groups, target messages to specific constituencies, then recruit religious leaders and other third-party ‘validators.’ They, in turn, would write and submit opinion pieces to Chicago publications.”

Some healthcare experts saw through Mrs. Obama and PR man Axelrod—the same Axelrod who is now President Obama’s senior adviser. But the University’s Medical Center hired ASK Public Strategies to promote Mrs. Obama’s initiative. Axelrod had the blessing of Chicago political guru Valerie Jarrett—now a White House senior adviser.

Axelrod’s great contribution: re-branding! His firm recommended renaming the initiative after “internal and external respondents expressed the opinion that the word ‘urban’ is code for ‘black’ or ‘black and poor.’ ...Based on the research, consideration should be given to re-branding the initiative.” Axelrod and the Obama campaign refused to disclose how much his firm received for its genius re-branding services.

Outrage in Obamas’ community exploded upon learning that a young boy covered by Medicaid had been turned away from the Medical Center. Dontae Adams’ mother, Angela, sought emergency treatment for him after a pit bull tore off his upper lip. Mrs. Obama’s hospital gave the boy a tetanus shot, antibiotics and Tylenol, and shoved him out the door. The mother and son took an hour-long bus ride to another hospital for surgery.

Following the Adams incident, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) blasted Mrs. Obama and Axelrod’s grand plan. The group released a statement with “grave concerns that the University’s policy toward emergency patients is dangerously close to ‘patient dumping,’ a practice made illegal by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)and reflected an effort to ‘cherry pick’ wealthy patients over poor.”

+++
“Take weapons up and begin to kill.  It’s a long, long Army marching home.”

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By Rontruth, June 19, 2009 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

Garth, The one on Castro’s lady friend (Marita Lorenz) was from Gaeton Fonzi’s 1993 book, “The Last Investigation.” The whole book is written in a way that takes one through a learning curve that is made easy because it is woven in ways that poke fun at the guilty, and those in Congress who were as afraid of the CIA, and it’s great cover-up Director, the guy who was in Dallas, photographed in Dealey Plaza moments after Kennedy was shot: George H. W. Bush.

He told reporters, and investigators over the years since he was where he told the FBI he had not been, that he “was in Texas but can’t remember where,” that
he “honestly can’t remember where” he was, then later on told Bill McBride of “The Nation” magazine that he “was in Tyler, Texas” (about 75 miles from Dallas.” He could never be caught in a lie by a lie detector test. That’s why the CIA taught their most dangerous agents to make up several stories about where they were when some major national tragedy happen.

Fonzi says, on pages 159 to 161 that Bush, Sr. “left the White House in January,1993 with all the documents about his involvement in the JFK assassination with him.“Bush had just signed into law the order to have the “Assassination Records Review Board” created. Bill Clinton had the Board put together. It’s purpose was to go after ALL the documents and files the Government held relating to the Kennedy assassination.

The one in Caracas, Venezuela with Orlando Bosch also comes from Fonzi’s book. Gaeton Fonzi was one of several Federal Investigators for the House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations.

Another man, Robert J. Groden, who was a photographics consultant to the House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations, also knew about Bush’s taking these important documents (pieces of evidence that tell who the actual guilty party(ies) were) being taken out of the White House document storage office a few days before Bush, Sr. officially left office.

Ironically, in January, 1969, the what I call “Sudden, unanticipated (yah. Right!) president, Lyndon Johnson, who created the “Freedom of Imformation Act,” and signed it into law, took all the documents that showed his top role in the Kennedy assassination, with him when he left office. It turns out that the conspiracy included both of them. Bush, Sr. learned well from LBJ. They met on Nov. 21, 1963 in Houston. That was the day before the JFK assassination. Oh, well. Buzzom buddies, I guess.

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By Anarcissie, June 19, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

Sepharad:
‘Anarcissie, true believers may not be happier than the rest of us who are not counting on eternal life, but I can’t imagine why not. ...’

Possibly the beliefs of true believers about religion take place, so to speak, on a different stage than beliefs about other sets of abstractions or about daily life.  Read the Beatitudes, and then consider that 70% of Evangelical Christians—those who make the most noise about their beliefs in the magical, salvationistic version of Jesus—voted for George Bush in 2004, when he was already known to have used lies to promote an unnecessary war and kill thousands of people, including thousands of Americans.  At the same time this population carried on its daily life with about the same mix of good and evil as everyone else; they certainly didn’t exemplify either the Beatitudes or Bush’s war criminality in their daily lives.  So a person could maintain a belief in eternal life but in a sort of weak, abstract, dreamlike form which would quiesce philosophical speculation but not really affect day-to-day living.

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By garth, June 19, 2009 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Rontruth,

Great stories.  I had to LOL. I heard about the exploding cigar, but not with any more description than that.
It sounds like they should take the “I” out of CIA and just call it the Central Agency.  Their slogan could be, “We put the FU in SNAFU.”
Where’d you get this stories? 
It seems also that the CIA had some luck, escaping from those situations.

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By Rontruth, June 18, 2009 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

Garth,
I agree with your reading of the CIA’s disappointment (I’ll just call it what I think it is) in attempting to rig the Iranian elections. What the CIA forgot is that when a nation has a leader, whether the US CIA, and it’s corporte/government alliance backers, likes it or not, the other side also knows how to cheat at the polling places. Castro did it for fifty years.

Saddam did it the same way.

The CIA tried some of the funniest ways. Once they sent Castro’s German-born former lady friend to make up to Castro for leaving him. She told him she couldn’t stand being away from her father so long as the reason she left. Actually, the CIA’s Frnnk Sturgis sneaked her out of Cuba and into a CIA terrorist training camp at Lake Ponchartrain, north of New Orleans for “special ops training.”

She went back, and “made up” to Castro, then at dinner one evening, she reached into her purse supposedly to get her container of rouge out. She reached iuto it, but found the capsule of poison power had dissolved into the surrounding rouge ointment. She almost got caught by a woman sitting across from her. Frank sneaked her out again, and this time, she never returned.

They were thinking of a pink powder impanted set of Castro’s favorite cigars. If he smoke the right cigar, it would send straight up into his black beard a rich pink powder that would quickly color his whole beard PINK. The Cuban male population would have laughed him all the way across the border into Guantanamo, the US leased base. It would have been the most peaceful coup the CIA would have ever participated in.

Another funny attempt was when a Cuban CIA terrorist planned to hide in a tree with a repeating rifle with which to shoot Castro during one of Castro’s six or seven-hour verbal US-bashing tirades. The tree he chose was some distance in the background of a Havana city square. He was up in the tree and no one noticed him there unitl after he had urinated down the backside of the trunk of the tree. A dog went up to it, and barked loudly, but the police couldn’t see him so high up

Late at night, he slid down the tree, and was picked up by a Cuban CIA contract agent, and was flown back from Cuba to the US as a businessman on his return trip from Cuba.
One of the man’s CIA handlers told him that it was the first time in the history of the CIA that one of it’s agents “pissed his way down a tree, and got away from the dog that should have pissed there.”

In Caracas, Venezuela, Orlando Bosch, the CIA’s Castro-hating explosives expert for Latin America, called “Dr. Death” by his Operation 40 buddies, hid in an outhouse on a small ranch where Castro was supposed to speak. He had a rifle and telescopic sight with him torn down in a suitcase. He was late getting into the outhouse; he had to wait until the crowd had gathered in close to where they could see and hear Fidel. When Castro mounted the platform to speak, the CIA hitman decided it was time to adjust the scope so that he could see through it clearly.

For some reason, the scope was not well attached to the rifle stock in front of the firing mechanism part of the gun, and it fell off into the toilet hole that was full of, well, you know, uhh, umm-humm. He prayed that no one on their way out of the meeting would decide to use the outhouse. He escaped late at night to a CIA safe house from which he had walked to the outdoor meeting place. He never did find his scope.

The interesting thing about all these CIA failures to get Castro, was the fact that the Cuban DGI had nothing whatsoever to do with foiling the CIA attempts to kill Castro. The Cuban DGI didn’t have to. The CIA did quite well at bungling their own attempts.

Castro has still said that he had nothing to do with the assassination of President Kennedy. He said it Texas oil tycoons who hated Kennedy for raising their corporate taxes.

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By garth, June 18, 2009 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY!
” A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom. “—Martin Luther King, Jr.

And the beat goes on….
The following link is to Paul Craig Roberts’s take on the U.S. government’s attempted coup in Iran.  The telltale signs of the West’s involvement in fomenting a revolution: the professionallty painted signs in English for the western media, the use of a color in naming the revolution, this time it’s a ‘green’ revolution, and the use if the internet for instant messaging, this time twitter, to make it look like all hell broke loose.

http://www.infowars.com/iran-faces-greater-risks-than-it-knows/

On the Bankrupt thread by Hedges, someone mentions that Russia continues to back the dollar as the reserve currency, alleviating the West’s fear.  Putin is being smart.  Two sayings come to mind.  One is, “If you are going to kill the King, kill the King.” and, “A wounded animal is more dangerous.”
All they have to do is wait.  Professor of economics, Ravi Batra, of SMU, says that the collapse is coming by this Fall.  So, all they have to do is wait.  Greed will consume itself.  If they acted too soon, Brzezinski’s reptilian brain might make him lash out.  Just look up the Kursk. Russia is, after all, the trophy Brzezinski wants, and I’d guess Putin knows that.

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By Blueboy1938, June 18, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

colin2626262, whoever YOU are, I am in no wise anti-Christian, or anti-any other religion, per se.  What I am opposed to are those who make sanctimonious noises at the same time espousing the most appalling inhumanity.  Expressing the fact that you have no sympathy for the mentally and physically wounded troops that have returned after doing their country’s bidding is egregiously hypocritical and incomprehensibly mindless.  Fortunately, stating that self-evident fact appears to bother you.  I don’t care if you identify yourself as Christian or whatever else.  That sentiment, expressed by you, identifies you as a heartless individual, who uses the suffering of others to make some twisted blog “point.”  Well, count up your “points” and rejoice:  You’ve won the Inhumanity Award!

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By Night-Gaunt, June 18, 2009 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

I could never understand the Left (in general) being against personal gun ownership. They have no problem of revolutionaries having guns to defend themselves against oppressive gov’ts. [One such picture of a uniformed woman with an assault rifle and breast feeding her baby comes to mind.]

It must be the context. Only during a battle of liberation would it be needed. After that we are fine? No crime or depredations from a gov’t that gets too powerful for our own good? Even in the best of society eventually and occasionally someone will do something wrong that hurts another. Even in Switzerland. A country I wish we would emulate. The Swiss stopped their mercenary work back in the 1600’s I think. During WWII they became the bankers of the III Reich to keep the Germans off. It worked. [Himmler had plans to incorporate them after the war. Their own SS unit he had drawn up.]

The Swiss are a good example and Rwanda is a bad one. Though most of the depredations were done with machetes than with fire arms. It was the intent that counted in both cases. The kind of people in the first place. This goes back to my central thesis.

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By Anarcissie, June 18, 2009 at 5:03 am Link to this comment

nickmammano:
‘Judging by the tone of so many of the comments about Cocco’s column, I have the impression that the gun lobby takes aim at any column that suggests that guns should be restricted.  It could be described as the “grass roots” points of view, but my guess is that the posting of these many “comments” is orchestrated.’

Do you know of a single person who is being paid to write anti-gun control articles in blogs?

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By ardee, June 18, 2009 at 3:06 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, June 18 at 5:23 am #

Appreciation should help one to realize the futility and waste of time, attempting to use reason on persons who believe in absolutism’s without using reason.

...edit….
Why is it that quotes from the bible never seem to be written in quotes?

...I think the first explains the second.

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By Leefeller, June 18, 2009 at 2:23 am Link to this comment

Appreciation should help one to realize the futility and waste of time, attempting to use reason on persons who believe in absolutism’s without using reason. 

Wallace Stegner’s comment shows enlightenment, could one and say instead, 4 aces and a joker or would that seem plagiarist?

Why is it that quotes from the bible never seem to be written in quotes?

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By Sepharad, June 17, 2009 at 10:48 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, true believers may not be happier than the rest of us who are not counting on eternal life, but I can’t imagine why not. I love living, and the prospect of going on and on, more books, more music, more horses, more time with husband ... that would certainly make me happier. It also would be easier to bear the deaths of loved ones if you expect to be with them again. On the other hand, I don’t disparage people for believing, but simply wonder how they can. Also, from time to time, wonder how true believers can see and appreciate life as the rare, precious, fleeting thing it is. Wallace Stegner may have captured some of the faithful’s perspective when he described someone has having “the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces.”

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By Leefeller, June 17, 2009 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

When one judges others as themselves, truth is not an option. Opinion from one who insults others then says he does not want to argue, is saying I believe what I believe, it does not matter if it is true.  Comments from Colin(number guy or gal) are sadly closed to discussion from the start, for his opinion is not supportable in discussion, instead indoctrinated interpretations of stories heard or read are supposed to be accepted as truths though not believed by others, who are chastised for not believing such stories?

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