Folktruther, your June 1 response to Anarcissie is much more cogent than the article under discussion. You’ve defined the issues and the only moral and productive responses possible. I’m not sure I could go along with the China statist society as a model, however, as the government is very repressive whenever it feels its power the least bit threatened, and corruption is even deeper in their political and business circles than in our own—and that’s very deep indeed. A balance of socialism with just enough capitalism to keep things efficient enough to provide the people what they need and a bit extra is the golden mean I keep looking for (and failing to find). And yes, it would require a united personal and ideoligical morality to create such a situation and sustain it in the world.

AbuMubarak:
‘Speaking of the 2004 election, I find it amazing that the same populace who voted Bush in for a second term, then turned around four years later and voted someone of total opposite, on so many levels. ....’

Take a look at “The Unpolitical Animal”, an article by Louis Menand, which appeared in The New Yorker in 2004: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/08/30/040830crat_atlarge

One of the things the article states, apparently on reasonably scientific evience, is that not more than 10% of the electorate vote on the basis of ideology or a rational evaluation of their long-term interests in the selection of candidates.  (I think, based on personal experience, that the figure is actually much lower.)  This doesn’t mean people are crazy or stupid; in a large election, the effect of one’s vote is negligible, so that voting at all is somewhat irrational and probably functions mostly as entertainment or performance art.  It does mean that most of the talk about how this party or that must adopt this ideology or that in order to survive and succeed is vacuous: most of the voters don’t care, especially about the fine points.  This means, that except for a part of that 10%, they don’t actually care about “Moral Values” whether these values are about Gay marriage or torture.

This answers your question: “Moral Values” were gas; media concern with them was a sort of metagas, gas about gas; and in time, gas blows away on the wind and is replaced with other gas by professional and amateur gas producers.

Nice to know that the citizens who acquiesced to a reichwing fascist torture state have their “moral centre.” I’m sure the detainees at GITMO appreciate it.

Christian Conservatism is an oxymoron, that is a whole lot more off than it is on, when deciding standards of morals.

rockinrobin,

You shouldn’t listen to CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST Rush Limbaugh’s RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST propaganda, he will lead you astray. 

There ARE only TWO institutionalized political parties in the United States, other parties aren’t even allowed on enough state tickets to even make a difference.

There ARE 3 distinctly different classes and cultures in the United States and each of the three need their OWN representatives:  1) the 10% Elite Capitalists Population (Republicans) Class and Culture, 2) the 20% NEW Professionals Population (Republicans-Lite Democrats) Class and Culture, and 3) the 70% Commons Population (Need Representatives) Class and Culture.  The 70% Commons Population Class and Culture have NO REPRESENTATION in Congress, all representation goes to 1 & 2.  3 needs their own representative members in the Congress of the United States in order to actually be represented in the legislative, executive and judicial branches of government.

Rush Limbaugh is paid: “According to a book entitled “Bias” by Bernard Goldberg, Rush Limbaugh signed a contract in 2001 for $297 million dollars to broadcast through summer 2009, which would make the answer, $33 million per year..”

“This, of course, does not include any additional money he is paid for speaking engagments, book residuals, or earnings in the stock market.”

“(In addition to previous answer: Limbaugh and Clear Channel signed an eight-year, $300,000,000 contract extension in August 2008, worth about $37.5 million per year.)”

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_Rush_Limbaugh_make_per_year

Propagandist, Rush Limbaugh is paid $37,500,000. per year by right-wing corporations and the elite to peddle CONSERVATISM on the air waves, anyone paid that much will say what they are being paid to say, listening to what they say is sheer foolishness.  CONSERVATISM is not in the best interest of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

REF: Folktruther

The Paul Simon song comes to mind, “Still Crazy After All These Years.”

I got some early training that I soon rejected. Read Nietzsche and continue through stages. Cutting to the chase, I think everybody should reconsider religions. Each one has the potential to provide much good, I say with great reluctance. If they have decent leaders, they may be necessary to raise the help raise decent children and provide legal guidelines. I prefer some over others but like a very plain man told me several years ago, “I don’t much care which (church, synogogue or temple) they belong to, just so long as they belong to one or the other.) It just seemed like an odd remark at the time. He was there to put a new belt on the riding lawnmower.

The lack of civility, tolerance and the excessive pride and hubris is bound to make trouble. Religious should teach everybody how to behave. Those who do not know how to act, those are the truly ignorant ones. A PhD or an MD just shows you have completed a specified program of study. You must know more than one person with that piece of parchment hanging on the wall but still just a damn fool.

samosamo,

I do have that CD.  Because there are so many DLC Republicans-Lite in Congress, that need to be voted out of the Democratic Party, the fraudulent CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING REPUBLICAN EXTREMISTS were allowed to stay in office when it was disclosed that the elections were stolen, still the administrations were allowed to continue for 8 years destroying the country with Nancy Pelosi taking impeachment off the table, when even the judge that appointed Bush should have been impeached.

We only have the two political parties and must continue to vote as many of the DLC out of the Democratic Party as we can.  I would hope that all common population in the Republican Party should register in the Democratic Party and make a massive vote during the primary elections to remove all DLC members who are the Blue Dogs and the NEW Democrats.

Yeah, Anarcissie, most of the stuff in the American mainstream media is bullshit.  But there has been an historical rise of religion in the world in the past few decades, and not all of this is reaction.  Even the Chinese are funding Confuscian Institutes aroound the world.  And there has been a rise of godless religions in the 20th century.  Sure, most of it is dingbat stuff, but I think the underlying spiritual quest is authentic.  People are searching for something and in the 21st century may find it.

AbuMubarak

never underestimate the ability of americans to act like dim-witted children with an attention span of, well, that long.

Southern gal

you must remember that we have re-written the golden rule for these modern times, it is now “whoever has the gold, makes the rules.”

And why does one have to believe in an invisible man in the sky to be considered “moral”? How about we all worry about what we are doing here and now, instead of a fruitless preparation for some after life paradise?

By AbuMubarak, June 1 at 7:32 pm
“” I find it amazing that the same populace who voted Bush in for a second term,”“
*************************************************

Apparently you haven’t heard about the blatant voter fraud carried out in Ohio in 2004, documented at that where the republican lackey sec or state blackwell did a very good job of obfuscation and decetption at the heavily democrat polls and precients thus allowing w & dick to steal the 2004 election.

The voter exit polls were far too different from the last count where a swing of 3% in favor of kerry actually became a 5% vote for w & dick.

Check it out in a book titled ‘What Happened in Ohio 2004’.

And there are still some people that will only call w, governor bush because that was the last election he won maybe legitimately.

Also, google, ‘orwell rolls in his grave’ and watch that video, about an hour long.
Never mind, here’s the link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1925114769515892401

Speaking of the 2004 election, I find it amazing that the same populace who voted Bush in for a second term, then turned around four years later and voted someone of total opposite, on so many levels.

Just on face value, what does this say about the voting public in America? Frustrated, Enlightened, Desperate, Hopeful? I don’t know, but I am sure it will be studied for years to come.

samosamo,

Culture is that which is passed down from generation to generation. The common population has been stripped of all class and culture. 

Conservatism has divided the common population’s class and culture to where each person acts singularly as an individual politically, which takes away the power of the majority common population to work together as a unit, because the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION only have power when unified.

You are correct, morality can’t be legislated, so propagandizing morals without legislated STANDARDS of morality is nothing but propaganda, that conservatives of both the left and the right use to divide the common population and have them all crawling around like a bowl of worms standing for or against this or that moral issue, seeking after morality that can’t be found in government and can only be found at home. 

Pledging to the flag “under God” and having “In God We Trust” on our money does not legislate Bibical standards of morality, there are NO STANDARDS of morality legislated, even the 10 Commandments were kicked out of government by the Republicans, therefore moral issues are strictly for propaganda purposes to lead the ignorant and foolish away from what is in their best interest.

Consumers are the common population. Instead of doing so much consuming, people should start planting gardens, being creative and doing what God made people to do, CREATE.  God didn’t put different fingerprints on each individual so that each individual wouldn’t have sense enough to work together.  Each individual of the 70% MAJORITY common population must start working together as individuals in the class and culture they are, and create a way to support an economy without being consumers for the capitalists, who return nothing to the common population.

Folktruther:
‘You are wrong, Anarcissie, to discount the value or usefulness of moral and spiritual ideology….’

I didn’t discount the value or usefulness of moral and spiritual ideology.  I discounted their supposed importance in the success of Republicans in 2004, as recited by endless writers and politicos.  E.J. Dionne is correct to point out that this gale of gas, dubious from the first, blew itself out quite suddenly.  No surprise there: of the tens of thousands of writings on American politics I have read, at most half a dozen actually engaged in any real investigation of the facts.  They just make stuff up.  And now, not moral values, but “Moral Values”, seem to have gone the way of the Angry White Man and the Soccer Mom.  Where are they now?  And what balloon of hot, ill-smelling gas is next?

Do unto others as you would have them do to you and those people that you love.

Moral issues are the claptrap BS of forcing people to live under certain ideologies, or basically said, ‘laws against nature’, thus the old axiom, ‘you can’t legislate morality’.

What is culturally destructive is the ‘consumer comsumption’(actually, I think it has been labeled - american exceptionalism) of ‘buy, buy, buy’ with no regards about an excessive overt materialism with no better example than the thousands of ‘useless empty toys’ people buy thinking what fun they are having for a few minutes before they get another one.

Morals are a part of life that is taught with the hope of a mental consciousness that will determine if one will act or not act; free thinking, free choice.

Culture is what makes up what a society will decide is the appropiate behavior no matter the consequences and this country still has hopes of maintaining the accepted culture is has become addicted to, at least for the last century.

I wonder how many would be willing to give up their ‘overconsumption’ for a better rewarding usefulness of life? Not many in this country, I suspect? So if they are the majority or not, the puppet masters will cater to their lunacy to keep reinforcing their behavior.

did you all read Matt Welch’s post on Truthdig, “California’s Silent Big Spenders”?

talk about a “changing moral universe”

(not in a good way)

You are wrong, Anarcissie, to discount the value or usefulness of moral and spiritual ideology, as a political hack like Dioone does.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Leftists, influenced by the world social theory of marxism, clothed in Western scientism, may discuss morality at tedious length but don’t say the necessary things about it. 

The morality of the US mainstream tradition, from the evasive deception of the liberals to the raving loonies of the religious right, is totally corrupt, having been hijacked by oppressive power for its own purposes.  The American people must be united by a moral and spiritual ideology which includes the respect and self respect of earthpeople.  It therefore must not only include political policy but economic policy as well. 

The power of the people must be increased relative to our rulers if people are ever to make the crucial power decisons that determine our fate.  And this can only be done by being integrated and united by a moral, spiritual and esthetic ideology of some kind. 

The problem with the American loonies is not that they identify with morality, but that the morality they identify with is immoral, an anti-people ideology.  Traditional religion has always been hijacked by power to serve its own intersts. 

What people must do is form their own ideology that serves ours.  And this can only be done effectively if some kind of communal cooperative economy is developed out of the ruins of capitalism, including the more effective state capitalism of China.  Such an economy cannot take and hold power without an ideology to unite it.  Intelligence and intellectual truth is not enough; people must be united by emotional moral values.

Christians define morality as making sure nobody has fun and works as a wage slave for predatory capitalism.

The “moral issues” business of 2004 seems to me to have been a phantom created by the media, or possibly by Republican publicists.  If there are any people who moralize at great and very tedious length, it’s leftists.  Most of those who voted for Republicans in 2004 had to know that Bush had lied about the war and gotten thousands of people killed for no good reason.  Murder and lying are seldom considered moral acts even by those who don’t like homosexuals or go to church every Sunday.  But they simply weren’t concerned—they thought Bush would better serve their interests than Kerry, regardless of the moral issues.

So clearly whatever people were actually concerned with in the previous election, it wasn’t morals.  The use of the term by media flacks seems fairly devoid of significance—at most, it was a code for bigotry.  The decline of the newspapers and the corporate media in general gives me hope that many of these writers will soon find work in other fields.  Used-car sales might be a booming industry soon, and a likely field for their talents at low fantasy.

“Empathy in this sense is a threat to conservatism, which features individual, not social, responsibility and a strict, punitive form of “justice.” It is no surprise that empathy would be a major conservative target in the Sotomayor evaluation. ”—- George Lakoff

The 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION are NOT just single individuals as conservatives’ puppets to the benefit of conservatism’s RIGHT-WING EXTREME REPUBLICANS.

Debate over class and culture is not over at all; the politically unrepresented 70% “UNCOMMON” diverse common class and culture of the nation IS a class and culture in the United States, as the common class and culture is in ALL nations, that must be politically recognized and respected in the United States.  Again, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION aren’t just weak single individuals without power as conservatism’s puppets, the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION are a unit and must be politically recognized as a unit, so that when the people as a whole are polled for their opinion, that opinion will command respect.  Representatives of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION need to adhere to MAJORITY common population polls, and conform to the unified wisdom of the MAJORITY “uncommon” common people of the 70% MAJORITY common population when they call, e-mail and write letters to their representatives to make their opinions known, which has not been happening; so class and culture is not off the table, as there are three classes and cultures in the United States and only TWO classes and cultures being recognized.

The morality of the “morals” voters: It is moral to massacre, enslave, and exploit the littler, the weaker and the browner to fatten ourselves and our plutocrats.

The only good Republican I ever sas was dead.

Take a look at red state / blue state divorce rates, and you’ll find that liberal leaning states have a far smaller rate of marriage dissolution than do “conservative” states. And the sanctity of marriage being one of the central tenets of “conservatism”, it may be deduced that on other issues, “conservatives” blow just as much hot air as they do on keeping vows.

Morality begins at home, as so many virtues do. Conservatives’ home life trends toward immorality.

The Con-job was titled: “Compassionate Conservative” they proceeded to kill 150,000 people and give all our children’s money to their friends. All in the name of “JESUS”. Jesus laughs at us….......

When you are considering the Republican vote; how much of it was real and how much of it was fraud must be part of the consideration.  Touch screen voting can easily be flipped to say whatever the Republicans wanted the vote to say.  Don’t forget the Republican voting machine fraud in Florida where Clint Curtis made the computer program for the Republicans to fraud the vote, which worked for much more that just that one vote:  http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&rls=ig&q=Clint+curtis+voting+fraud&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=QX8jSsibJ6GctgObndSJBA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#

When you are considering the Republican vote; how much of it was real and how much of it was fraud must be part of the consideration.  Touch screen voting can easily be flipped to say whatever the Republicans wanted the vote to say.  Don’t forget the Republican voting machine fraud in Florida where Clint Curtis made the computer program for the Republicans to fraud the vote, which worked for much more that just that one vote in the nation:  http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&rls=ig&q=Clint+curtis+voting+fraud&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=QX8jSsibJ6GctgObndSJBA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#

REGARDING SOTOMAYOR, she tossed out all the tests that many competitors studied and worked hard to succeed. She further attempted to trash the whole issue and prevent the U.S. Supreme Court. She comes from the Princeton tribe, not like any other. Yet to be completely analyzed by anything that I have read. Know many of their modern graduates and the are a breed apart.

One thing seems certain, they strive to push hard to place those whom they consider deserving, no matter their merit. It is a mission of sorts. I would like to know the inner workings of this once esteemed institution. I am more suspicoius of their conclusions and aims every year. They claim they are very conservative. Just how is that? It appears to be a center of social engineering and propaganda. More and more, I think of it as the “Teamsters Union” of university “scholars.”

The cliché is that liberals are less concerned with moral issues than conservatives. This is utterly false. Liberals and conservatives are equally concerned with morality, but they define morality differently.

Liberals define morality primarily in terms of fairness and avoidance of harm, whereas conservatives define morality primarily in terms of hygiene and propriety.

Liberals ask, “Would doing this condemn me as cruel or unethical?”. Conservatives ask, “Would doing this condemn me as unclean or strange?”

Liberals seek a morality that transcends or abolishes tribe, gender, and rank; conservatives seek a morality that reinforces tribe, gender, and rank.