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The Five Biggest Lies Bush Told Us About Iraq

The Five Biggest Lies Bush Told Us About Iraq

By Robert Scheer, Christopher Scheer and Lakshmi Chaudhry

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As Smash-and-Grab Capitalism Collapses, the French Economy Shines

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Posted on May 16, 2009

By William Pfaff

Many in Britain and the United States are in mourning for what’s taken as the suicide of the American (or Thatcherite, or Chicago-school) model of capitalism, accompanied by the non-interventionist state that hands the national economy over to business and financial leaders to run.

Not least among the mourners ought to be The Economist magazine in London, a major part of whose charm has always been the insolent certitude with which it expresses its views. It is not a publication used to lunching on its own words. But The Economist too has become a victim of the world crisis, and its current issue’s cover story pays a handsome tribute to the success of the formerly scorned, centralized, interventionist, Colbertist French economic model, and the state practices and values that support it.

“France’s economy,” it writes, “has been less hard hit than many. Its GDP is expected to shrink by 3 percent this year ... against 4 percent in Britain, 4.4 percent in Italy, and 5.6 percent in Germany. It is less dependent on exports than Germany, and consumer spending in the first quarter of 2009 was up on the same period last year. The government ... is set to have a deficit in 2009 (6.2 percent of GDP) well below those in America (13.6 percent) and Britain (9.8 percent).”

French household debt is half that in America, no bank has failed, none has been nationalized, executive pay is reasonable, and “the income gap between the top 10 percent and the bottom 10 percent is far smaller than in Britain or America.” The country is crisscrossed by 230-mph TGV trains, 80 percent of the power is nuclear (and more is exported), its auto producers are in reasonably good shape, Air France is the most profitable airline in the world, and French-dominated Airbus sells more planes than Boeing.

The French are uncertain of what to make of this tribute, since self-denigration is (oddly enough) a national characteristic, and they have only recently elected Nicolas Sarkozy, another font of certitudes, who won the presidency while insisting to the French that the “French model” was obsolete and that France had to learn new ways to live by adopting the “Anglo-Saxon” model of laissez-faire capitalism, market freedom and financial innovation.

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It is, of course, premature to say that what the French call capitalisme sauvage is dead. One doubts that it’s really dead—the cadaver twitches; the Obama administration in the U.S. has yet to drive a stake through its heart. A decade from now, Barack Obama might well be discovered on the board of Goldman Sachs, and Timothy Geithner will almost certainly be there. But the capitalism they serve may not quite be the same.

The United States is certain to learn something from the French success in long-term state planning, infrastructure development and, one would hope, will build a vastly improved health system (the World Health Organization considers France’s the best in the world) and other social protections.

The business model that has dominated the British and American economies since the 1960s, and been propagated worldwide, crashed because it is inherently unstable. It works in only one direction, to take value away from the real economy and give it to stockholders and bankers. It’s an asset-stripping system that benefits company managers and directors, bankers, stock traders and financiers. To workers and their families, who in the past believed that they had a stake in the business economy, and to the communities suffering de-industrialization, it said, “Too bad, but you’ll be better off in the long term—if you are still around.”

To be fair, this was the unintended result of an ideological position of political origin, which claimed that unregulated property ownership is the fundamental right of a free society, and which in its American version subordinated the interests of the labor force and local and national communities to the pursuit of ever-higher returns on investment.

This doctrine concerning property rights historically was a reaction against the 20th century totalitarian communism that intended to destroy private property. While the modern economic system makes a natural appeal to greed, its theoretical origins lie in the work of certain Central European intellectuals—notably Frederick Hayek, Karl Popper and, to an extent, Joseph Schumpeter—who were exiles from the political crisis in Europe and fearful of the abuse of centralized government power.

The business model that Margaret Thatcher, her advisers and conservative Americans constructed from this foundation was condemned to its eventual self-destruction by its disequilibrium.

The classic English and Scottish economists (Adam Smith, David Ricardo, etc.) believed that a business enterprise was an agent of social benefit, in that it created goods and wealth, but also had obligations to its workforce and society as a whole. The same values are responsible for the “French model,” and are now demonstrating that they can succeed in bad times as well as good.

Visit William Pfaff’s Web site at www.williampfaff.com.

© 2009 Tribune Media Services Inc.


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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, September 2, 2010 at 5:00 pm Link to this comment

As Smash-and-Grab Capitalism Collapses, the nations only socialist state bank, the Bank of North Dakota shines, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/16/bank-of-north-dakotasocia_n_463522.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX8pcADnsEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0rJWnRFUJA.

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By binary option, August 31, 2010 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You made some good points there. I did a search on the topic and found most people will agree with your blog. Thanks

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 4, 2009 at 12:47 am Link to this comment

Thanks for the update, happened to be up to see your post Sephard.

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By Sepharad, June 3, 2009 at 11:50 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, Leefeller, Hawkeye ... today’s NYTimes and other news sources’ coverage of Congress and the health plan is encouraging: the left and Dems from even centrist places are hanging on to the federal plan like little terriers. It’s still undecided and the devil as always will be in the details but it does not look quite as depressing as a few days earlier.

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By SINGLE PAYER, June 3, 2009 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

The second biggest industry on Earth is the insurance business. Petroleum is the largest industry.

The U.S. Congress is determined to protect the insurance industry like they protected and bailed out AIG.

The say they must take single-payer health insurance off the table. Yet, 70% of Americans disagree with the U.S. Congress.

The war is on between ordinary people and the U.S. Congress who actually stand with big pharma, big insurance, healthcare industry, bailouts and corruption.

Ordinary citizens need single-pay health insurance. Damn those puppet politicians. Votes mean nothing to them. The have money and the mainstream media to get re-elected.

All things considered, the Lords of Mordor on the Potomic are “Enemies of the People.”

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By KDelphi, June 3, 2009 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

The death insurance industry is the second most profitable industry on the planet. (second to oil)It kills more people , in the uS, than war. And, it only exists, as the only payer of only choice, here—in the US. (Medicaid is not an exception—you get stuck in the worst of HMOs)

We will NEVER get natl health care in the “exceptional” US, as long as Capitalism rules the day. The worship of entruepreneurship will be the death of us all. There should be NO “competition” in matters of life and death. It is immoral.

Campaign finance reform would help. Voting all these lobbyed to death basterds out of office would help more.

Hawkeye—there are two really good sites that i’m sure youve heard of…maybe not…here they are

http://www.pnhp.org/news/quote_of_the_day.php

Physicians for a Natl Health Plan (note—no word ‘insurance”...like other civilized countries, which we are, apparently, no longer any part of)

Here is a site for links, which lists other groups, like PDA (Progressive Dems of Am, which is really supportive of Oba, though)
http://www.pnhp.org/news/articles_of_interest.php

California Nursess Association:

http://www.calnurses.org/

Families USA,is sponsored by the Harry and Louise people…the AFL/COI doesnt want to give up legacy health care, so they are backing the Dems plans (they will all give it up anyway, but, the AFL is not know for standing up for its people—they wanted single payer , back when they were still a “real union”)...the Massachusetts plan was invented by Mitt Romney…

Here are some more sites that will explain how the
US can get past Capitalist Dictatorship
A Health Care Plan for Big Business

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/mar2009/pers-m13.shtml

Socialist Worker (Left Out From Obama’s Health Care Summit)
http://socialistworker.org/2009/03/16/obama-health-care-summit

Democratic Socialists of Am, with a link to a YouTube video (which would crash my browser now, my pc is so old), which has a slide show explainign single payer:
http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 3, 2009 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye

If one was to hire legions of well paid lobbyists and grease the palms of self serving Congress, only then would your ideas become a glimmer in the eyes of those who represent opportunism. If Congress had the same medical care most of the people had, you could see a change also.  Take away perks from congress and you could see some action, or just voting themselves another raise?  Guess the same idea could work for not going to war?

Something which does not make sense to me, is the corporations and business in general could benefit from a national medical plan.  Possible the insurance lobbies are bigger and more powerful then one believes, or they just pay well?

Amusing, people pay medical insurance so they can lobby against the people!

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By Sepharad, June 3, 2009 at 12:29 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, I live where coyotes roam free and am more afraid of the little rattlesnakes as they are young and too stupid to not deliver all their venom into something too big to eat. On the other hand, the big ones have more venom to distribute, can strike much farther and are more subject to irritation whereas the little ones are only operating out of reactive instinct.

Which means, ref to KDelphi, Hussein and Stalin, that no matter which one you are vulnerable to you are in big trouble.

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By KDelphi, June 2, 2009 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye—single payer health care is “off the table”, thanks to both parties. The “public plan” is a scam, and, many of us have spent years trying to do something about this and were told , that we “needed a Dem Congress” or a “Democratic president”—it was a lie.

There are just too beholden to the insurance industry and they are willing to let people die for money.

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By Paracelsus, June 1, 2009 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

@ ThomasG

I brought up the dogshit issue because you mentioned stepping in dog doo. It brought back such memories. I have other memories too of Miami Beach such as the old battle axes with the huge handbags cleaning out the pastry tables after the Rosha Shannah service. I remember always getting heartburn at Wolfies when the parents got together with the grandparents. I remember father on a Saturday asking me to go ask that nice man in the black hat to make change for a dollar. I meant no disrespect to you or your person. smile

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By Paracelsus, June 1, 2009 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

@ ThomasG, June 2 at 3:17 am #

Paracelsus:

-0

Shouldn’t that be < 0? Just saying…Eh, nevermind.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 1, 2009 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

Paracelsus:

-0

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 1, 2009 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind:

0

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By Inherit The Wind, June 1, 2009 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye, June 1 at 9:35 pm #

REF: THOMASG


Maybe you should go back to sports writing?

Got boxscores for Hooterville?
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By ThomasG, June 1 at 9:27 pm #

Inherit The Wind & ardee:

You people are not worth the effort.  If you had any idea how really ignorant you are, you would shrink into oblivion, but a fool is always a genius in their own mind.  I do not feel that you people as fools are worthy of my time.
************************************************

Damn! For once I agree with Hawkeye 100%!

Yeah, Tommy, we’re not worth the effort. We don’t deserve to be exposed to your brilliant erudition. We’re not worthy!

So why don’t you “get a grip” on you-know-what go back to “keeping yourself happy”?  You’ll be happier and so will we.

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By Paracelsus, June 1, 2009 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

@ Thomas G

Darn, I just schlepped on some dog doo!

Why is every Jewish father, uncle, or grandfather has this fear of dogshit? As in “be careful, don’t step in the dogshit”. No one else has eyes for it, except for the elder Jewish relative. I think they spend most of their time watching the ground in fear of dogshit. More humiliating is, “Go check yourself I think you stepped in some dog shit.” Not that I have ever had that said to me. Just that I would like to get more credit for being able to see a big stinking pile of it. Sometimes they’ll even say it to co-worker in answer to a stupid question. But I think it is most effective when you want to evade a difficult question received while walking.

“When are you going to pay me back for the $20 I lent you”, the Schlemiel said.

“Be careful. Watch out for the dogshit,” answers the Schemozzle.

More effective still is:

“When are you going to send the child support?”, asks the ex-wife.

“Oh my gawd! I think you step in some dogshit,” answers the ex-husband.

I am saying this, cuz I lived it.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 1, 2009 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Let’s back up here! I said I felt like a large sweaty person was stuffing a Victorian Steamer trunk in the overhead above my seat on an airplane. 

Someone took issue and said it was their Aunt Bessy who was a school teacher?  Somehow I found out the Steamer trunk had special collection of bowling balls in it and ITW said something about Shelpping them up four flights of stairs? 

First of all, Aunt Bessy had a beard and smelled of tobacco, and could have passed for a lineman on any pro football team.  The Steamer Trunk was to heavy for me to shelp anywhere never the less four flights of stairs and I am quite sure Aunt Bessy could carry the steamer trunk, him/her self without any difficulty. 

If anyone was going to shelp into dog doo, it would be me getting off the plane away from aunt Bessy and the awful tobacco smell and her constant raspy smokers hack.

Should I take issue with being called a wasp?  I may not qualify as a “w” in some circles, on the other hand maybe an asp!  One poster has even called me a Jack asp!

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, June 1, 2009 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye:

You, too.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 1, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind & ardee:

You people are not worth the effort.  If you had any idea how really ignorant you are, you would shrink into oblivion, but a fool is always a genius in their own mind.  I do not feel that you people as fools are worthy of my time.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, June 1, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, June 1 at 9:01 am #

Sepharad RE:

Thanks for the information, some words seem most funny to me, “schlepped”  is one of those words.

If one was not knowledgeable, the word could mean many other things.  Evan a double meaning: Darn, I just schlepped on some dog doo!  Or Clinton could have said “I never schlepped with that women”.  Even Bush could have said: Victory is schlepping around the corner!

So now, I will be schlepping off!
***********************************

Sorry, Lee, but your inner wasp is showing….

“My wife made me go shopping with her. I had to schlepp all her packages home.”

Or even: “My wife made me go shopping with her. We schlepped in and out of 100 stores.”

You wouldn’t say: “Darn, I just schlepped on some dog doo!” but, worse:
“Darn, I just schlepped IN some dog doo!” (yuck)

you can ignore ThomasG, our newest member of “The Contingent”.

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ThomasG's avatar

By ThomasG, June 1, 2009 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

So when you go schlepping off, you are proceeding wearily or heavily, lugging or dragging something awkwardly that is most probably of high volume and weight, hopefully not trying to pawn it off on somebody else, like the Jewish sales people of old schlepping around their merchandise to the schlemiels.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, June 1, 2009 at 6:01 am Link to this comment

Sepharad RE:

Thanks for the information, some words seem most funny to me, “schlepped”  is one of those words. 

If one was not knowledgeable, the word could mean many other things.  Evan a double meaning: Darn, I just schlepped on some dog doo!  Or Clinton could have said “I never schlepped with that women”.  Even Bush could have said: Victory is schlepping around the corner!

So now, I will be schlepping off!

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By Sepharad, May 31, 2009 at 10:01 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller, the opposite of “schlepped” is not available in one word, as far as I know (my knowledge of Yiddish is incomplete), but some possible substitutes: “pranced brightly”, “walked erectly, unburdened, optimistically”, “strode in (or out) purposefully”, “strolled freely”, “stepped lightly, head up.”

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By Inherit The Wind, May 31, 2009 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

ardee, May 31 at 11:24 am #

Inherit The Wind, May 31 at 8:42 am

Yeah ITW, what on earth is wrong with you that you do not bow to an obviously higher authority? Can you not see the shining light exuding from his every effort? Are you not properly humbled into agreement with every pearl of wisdom uttered?

Oh, and I expect the exact same treatment from you!
*********************************************

Yeah, bow down and worship before your betters, and, while you’re at it, peel me a grape! 
(‘scuse me—busy ROFLMAO! :> )

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By KDelphi, May 31, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye—Gee, thanks for enlightening me , that Geithner is a jerk. Summers, too.

The conversation about Saddam , vs Joe, only became relevant here, when you brought it up.

I think it does matter when people equate petty dictators that the uS helped install with people who have committed widespread atrocities and aggression against other countries. (like Bush comparing Hussein to Hitler) Otherswise, we find ourselves in idiotic “wars” like Iraq.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 31, 2009 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Obtuse and the most skewed jackass Leefeller here, please accept my apologies for being the most obnoxious hypocrite on TD.

Expecting some to comprehend my metaphorical rantings, now seems even more distant, I had high hopes only to find my metaphors dashing upon the rocks into a bloody pulp.

What shall I do?

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 31, 2009 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

KDelphi:
’... ITW—I dont want to change human nature in a generation, but, I want to START with this generation. The next one can take it from there.’

Capitalism created a “new capitalist man” in only a few hundred years.  It now seems to have the ability to convert not only feudal peoples but people living in tribal societies in a generation or two.  That suggests a lot of possibilities to me.

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By ardee, May 31, 2009 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, May 31 at 8:42 am

Yeah ITW, what on earth is wrong with you that you do not bow to an obviously higher authority? Can you not see the shining light exuding from his every effort? Are you not properly humbled into agreement with every pearl of wisdom uttered?

Oh, and I expect the exact same treatment from you!

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, May 31, 2009 at 5:42 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 30 at 11:41 pm #

REF: INHERIT THE WIND


I think your statement below says it all:

“You’ve insulted me repeatedly assuming I don’t know my history when it’s clear I have both a deeper and broader knowledge and understanding than you ever will with your intellectual myopia.”
*****************************************

I agree. I suggest you do a reality check.  You are a hypocrite who gets angry when someone does to you what you do to other people.

Tough shit. Deal with it.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 30, 2009 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 30 at 7:07 pm #

REF: KDelphi

Please do not insult me by assuming that I do not know my history.
**************************************

He who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones.

You’ve insulted me repeatedly assuming I don’t know my history when it’s clear I have both a deeper and broader knowledge and understanding than you ever will with your intellectual myopia.

Now you whine about it happening to you.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, May 30, 2009 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

ITW,

Talk about shlepped, I was once chased down a flight of stairs by a cast iron bath tub!  What is the opposite of shlepped?

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By KDelphi, May 30, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—Where did I “curse” you?? Saddam Hussein may have been a petty dictator, but, he did it, for the most part, within his own little “kingdom”, that WE (the US) set up for him and , originally, supported him as leader of Iraq (which the Brits invented” anyway). WE made Hussein and then, we “unmade” him…he must have been very confused.

Stalin was an entirely other animal—he came into power proposing that he was part of a revolution, and then, did all he could to betray it. He did, in fact, put the final nail in the coffin.

ITW—I dont want to change human nature in a generation, but, I want to START with this generation. The next one can take it from there.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 29, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, May 29 at 5:34 pm #

ITW—This is just crazy in here..
******************************************

Sure is!

********************************************

(A)I would say that Socialistm hs failed in every country it has been “tried in”, because it has never been tried for any length of time.

(B)Every revolutionary socialistic tendency that has developed, has been overtaken by dictators, like Stalin, or Capitalism, like China.
**********************************************

Well that’s the nub, isn’t it, KD? (A) is inevitably followed by (B). Don’t you think that could be due to the fundamental contradictions of Socialism?  Che and Lenin both spoke of a “new Socialist Man”, as if now all 3 million years of evolved human behavior was going to change….

It took the Church hundreds and hundreds of years to get their devout filled with nameless fears….you don’t change human behavior in a generation.

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By KDelphi, May 29, 2009 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—Saddam Hussein (that is who you mean, right?) just doesnt belong in there. He was a petty dictator in his own “kingdom”, you know like out “friends’ the Saudis.

Those that point out Socialist Democracies problems, seem to give unregulated Capitalism a pass on everything…yeah, its really working great here.

Siting Scandanvia is not a game or intellectual exercise to me, I used to live there.(WorkStudy Camp) I wish I could afford to go back.

If we do not develop some other social contract, the US will become a Third World country. It is in the proces of it now.

Capitalists cant even abide by the neo-liberal contracts that they have.

When Capitalism can pay its own fricking bills, maybe I’ll listen to “free mkt” mantra.

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By KDelphi, May 29, 2009 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

ITW—This is just crazy in here..

I would say that Socialistm hs failed in every country it has been “tried in”, because it has never been tried for any length of time.

Every revolutionary socialistic tendency that has developed, has been overtaken by dictators, like Stalin, or Capitalism, like China.

The Scandanavian countries have 25 million citizens. The EU has many more and, they have, basically, Socialist Demopcracies. (Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland, are the Scandanavian countries, for my purposes)

Here is a good article on it, from Common Dreams. Phillip Banowsky

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/24

“What could we do with socialism? Well, take banks for starters: take them, so instead of private scams that go broke gambling with money they don’t own, they’d become public utilities that finance production, infrastructure, and homes. And treat aging industries like autos: instead of dumping, we’d transform them according to a national plan for green jobs and a healthy environment…”

Here is an article from Dandelion Salad, about Bolivian president Evo Morales:

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/to-save-planet-end-capitalism-morales-says/

“As an alternative to destructive capitalism, Morales proposed building a “communitarian socialism” for the 21st century. He has described this goal as “living well”, as opposed to the capitalist notion of “living better”.

“For us”, said Morales, “what has failed is the model of ‘living better’, of unlimited development, industrialisation without frontiers, of modernity that deprecates history, of increasing accumulation of goods at the expense of others and nature. For that we promote the idea of ‘living well’, in harmony with other human beings and with our Mother Earth..”

I know you dont agree, but, that is ok.

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By ardee, May 29, 2009 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Nit picking, a sport the whole forum can play.

Certainly a society run on the principles of socialism would be one in which those two social contracts are in evidence. But I wont stand in the way of your having fun…


  “Socialism cannot exist without a change in consciousness resulting in a new fraternal attitude toward humanity, both at an individual level, within the societies where socialism is being built or has been built, and on a world scale, with regard to all peoples suffering from imperialist oppression.”
  — Che Guevara, Marxist revolutionary, 1965 [52]

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By Inherit The Wind, May 29, 2009 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

Excuse me but national health care and free education aren’t socialism (though the right-wing-nuts say they are).  They are merely society keeping it’s part of the contract for surrendering a portion of our independence to keep us all safe.

If you thing free ed is socialist, then Frederick The Great of Prussia was a Socialist.  He also instituted a form of Social Security.  Most nations in Europe have had free education, including higher education.  Only CUNY in the 70’s and 80’s had a free system in the USA.

If you read the Preamble to the Constitution, it’s hard to imagine how enhancing our prosperity can happen WITHOUT educating every citizen to the limits of his or her ability.

It’s a clear and simple investment that we make for the future that the Reaganist feudalists hate the idea of—because then they’d REALLY have to compete on a level playing field….something they DREAD (like how would Dumbya have gotten into Yale without a “legacy”?)

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By ardee, May 29, 2009 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, May 29 at 7:44 am #

RD, I was willing to accept your correction/adjustment as a valid critique up until that last sentence….

There’s nothing silly about pointing out that the ONLY success Socialism has seen has been very limited and restricted only to small populations—5,000,000 or less, and only when heavily modified.  Even Israel falls into that small state category.
.......

Well, half a loaf I guess.

That the principles and practices of socialism have taken root only in some smallish nations ( but they are also found in pieces in some larger nations as well…cradle to grave health care, free education through graduate school are two such examples )is not the same as saying that socialism cannot work in large countries.

I believe Marx noted that socialism would lead to communism, but those nations where communism has been the dominant government never really saw socialism take root, only an elite cadre usurping the doctrines of Marx and Engels to bad result.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 29, 2009 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye:

Good poem, except selfish suicide isn’t without pain—GRIEF is pain, there is no worse pain; and loved ones—friends, relatives GRIEVE for years when a loved one performs his/her last pitiful act of selfishness and self-destructs, causing immense pain to all that knows him/her; that are left to deal with the dead body, the funeral and lack of companionship of their loved one. I find it extremely sad that this poem is about suicide.

A person can’t commit suicide if they realize there are people who need them, if they don’t see it, they need to look around.  Suicide is an act of pitying one’s self and running away selfishly, because they do not want to allow caring and love in their heart for others, and think constantly about their own self, when God made everyone to be concerned about others. 

Anyone thinking about suicide should join a community center and find out what they could be doing to help others, because helping others takes away thoughts of suicide.

Mother always said never commit suicide, because you can’t go to Heaven if you do, because suicide is an act of defiance against God, instead of reliance upon God who made you for a purpose that will never be fulfilled.

No matter how bad the world gets, and it is getting worse and worse, but God made you, God knows you and God loves you.  The Bible says God knew you before you were born and loves you just like you are.  If you are having suicide thoughts, tell God about it, ask God to help you in the name of Jesus, and there will be a way for you to do great things of benefit to many people no matter how bad the world gets. Be patient, God loves you, suicide is not the way.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 29, 2009 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, May 29 at 11:43 am #

If that was aunt Besy, why did she have a wooden cage with two chickens strapped to her back ? I found out later the Victorian steamer trunk had a bowling ball collection in it.
******************************************

After you shlepped it up 4 flights of stairs, I assume?

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By Leefeller, May 29, 2009 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

If that was aunt Besy, why did she have a wooden cage with two chickens strapped to her back ? I found out later the Victorian steamer trunk had a bowling ball collection in it.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 29, 2009 at 4:44 am Link to this comment

ardee, May 29 at 6:31 am #

Inherit The Wind, May 28 at 10:19 pm #

“Of course, Socialism has failed miserably every time it’s been enacted.  The ONLY success has been in tiny little countries in Scandinavia, nations who are each half the population of the nearby CITY of St. Petersburg.  “
...................
Can you provide a list of nations that were governed under socialism? Aside from those “little” Scandinavian ones of course. Please do not conflate socialism with communism, nor should you think that a power grab by an elitist ruling class represents true communism either.

That the success of the principles and practices of socialism may be viewed as restricting it to small places seems rather silly, frankly.
************************************************

RD, I was willing to accept your correction/adjustment as a valid critique up until that last sentence….

There’s nothing silly about pointing out that the ONLY success Socialism has seen has been very limited and restricted only to small populations—5,000,000 or less, and only when heavily modified.  Even Israel falls into that small state category.

As for you, Hawkeye, repeating the same insulting crap about “instructing” me again and again shows you have nothing left as an argument but pomposity.  I don’t need to be “instructed” by a nitwit with nothing to say.  I’ve taken on tougher and smarter posters here than you.  You are barely qualified to be a junior member of “The Contingent”—or, in proper soviet jargon, a “Candidate Member”.

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By ardee, May 29, 2009 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind, May 28 at 10:19 pm #

“Of course, Socialism has failed miserably every time it’s been enacted.  The ONLY success has been in tiny little countries in Scandinavia, nations who are each half the population of the nearby CITY of St. Petersburg.  “
...................
Can you provide a list of nations that were governed under socialism? Aside from those “little” Scandinavian ones of course. Please do not conflate socialism with communism, nor should you think that a power grab by an elitist ruling class represents true communism either.

That the success of the principles and practices of socialism may be viewed as restricting it to small places seems rather silly, frankly.

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By MarthaA, May 28, 2009 at 8:49 pm Link to this comment

What about true Communism in Israel?

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By Leefeller, May 28, 2009 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment

Why do I feel like a large sweaty person is trying to shove a Victorian Steamer Trunk in the over head above my seat on the air plane?

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2009 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 28 at 6:27 pm #

REF: INHERIT THE WIND

You are not thinking. You cannot understand anything at the reactive, knee-jerk level. That is sub-cortical, down to a reptilian lashing out at misunderstood stimuli.

“When the finger points to the moon, the fool stares at the finger.”
***********************************

I’m so glad to have your arrogant pomposity to sidle up to MarthaA’s so you can both tell what a blind fool I am for not seeing the perfection in Socialism.

Of course, Socialism has failed miserably every time it’s been enacted.  The ONLY success has been in tiny little countries in Scandinavia, nations who are each half the population of the nearby CITY of St. Petersburg.  New York City is larger than any Scandinavian nation, so Socialism (and it’s VERY heavily altered from Marxist Socialism) working in countries of less than 5 million cannot be compared to countries of 60 million, 125 million, or, like the USA, over 300 million.

I love how these arrogant Socialist types come here spouting their religion with far less open-mindedness than even DwightBaker or Christian96 have.  Next to them DB and C96 are all ears!

And there’s always the arrogant assumption that anyone who doesn’t view things in the same myopic way is a stupid moron.  I guess you are ready to team up with…“THE CONTINGENT!”

Hey! KD! Now someone’s calling ME stupid—but they ain’t kidding!

LMAO!

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By MarthaA, May 28, 2009 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

How could you think my wanting the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION to be recognized and have political representation for the class and culture they really are, instead of the MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY they aren’t, could be pompous?

Your WAG is incorrect.  The Middle Class population in America is the 20% DLC NEW CLASS Professional MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY that will rule with the 10% Elite Capitalist Class over the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION, if the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION do not realize they need to secure representation in Congress because since the NEW CLASS was established, 70% of the nation is not represented.  Please read Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, “The Fear of Falling” because she tells you exactly what is happening with the NEW CLASS; and the NEW CLASS is represented in Congress by Democratic Leadership Council members, the DLC.

The fact that the corporate led DLC exists and are ruling the Congress from the left should be facts enough, but you choose not to understand and I have wasted enough time trying to educate you, therefore I will leave you with your short bus thoughts, and as you have named yourself, you can inherit the wind, because that is all that will be left to inherit, if people continue thinking the middle class is a class that can be attained by anyone.

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By MarthaA, May 28, 2009 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi:

I failed to tell you it was symbolic, and you have probably never sewn a stitch in your life, but the knot tied in the end of the thread when you sew is a symbolism for TRUTH.  Thread a needle and try to sew a button on a piece of material without tying a knot in the end of your thread, you can’t; you may devise a way without a knot, but the button will fall off later, the knot is a TRUTH.  People can circumvent TRUTH, and it may appear to work, but it won’t work for long; just like the knot at the end of the thread can’t be propagandized, TRUTH can’t be permanently circumvented and the people of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION not having representation legislatively, executively and judicially in the government of the United States is TRUTH.

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By Leefeller, May 28, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Why do I have a vision of a sweaty heavy set person trying to shove a steamer trunk in the overhead above my seat on the plane?

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2009 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA:
Your pomposity is truly outlandish.

This statement:

In the United States the ruling class has chosen to have a MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY, with no class and culture on the Right side of the MIDDLE; and no class and culture on the Left side of the MIDDLE, only a single MIDDLE CLASS singularity without the necessity of any class and culture on either side, and all individuals standing alone.  This is freedom and equality in the United States.

is pure gibberish. It’s a bunch of words stuck together that means NOTHING.  My best WAG (Wild-assed-guess) is that YOU think the middle class in America is a homogeneous artificial creation.

Naturally, such a statement is total unsupported bullshit. In this case your use of “singularity” is meaningless bullshit.  It’s jabberwocky, no more.

You can use rhetoric to clarify or obfuscate.  Obfuscation is used to either cover up bullshit, or to try to pedantically intimidate your interlocutor with $10 words that he or she doesn’t understand.

You are obfuscating for both endpoints.

And it’s still unsupported bullshit, as I said in a previous post.

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By KDelphi, May 28, 2009 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA—Tell me, then, I’m only in first grade—-what is TRUTH?

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By KDelphi, May 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—wtf did I say?? LOL!Why am I am “curmudgeon”?? It makes me sound like an older white guy…lol.


What are you guys talking about?????

ITW—do you know?? Sepharad—maybe you can explain to me what they are talking about…

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By MarthaA, May 28, 2009 at 9:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit The Wind, Hawkeye,

No joke!  These are 3rd & 4th Grade words.  Is education needed?  Darn, I never would have thought, but, schools have failed.

First,  what is TRUTH?  Truth is that knot tied at the end of a thread when sewing, if the knot isn’t tied, you can’t sew anything that will stay.  Got that?  OK, here we go:

RHETORIC:  the art of using words in speaking or writing so as to persuade or influence others. [Rhetoric is language used to lead others to a conclusion.]

RHETORICAL:  of or having to do with rhetoric.

[BTW - Binary emotional rhetoric is PROPAGANDA]
*************************

IGNORANCE:  Lack of knowledge

****************************************
SINGULARITY:  noun.  1) the state or quality of being SINGULAR; 2) a character or quality by which a person or thing is distinguished from all or many others.

SINGULAR: noun. representing the only ONE of its type, unique; being the only ONE of the kind; signifying or implying only ONE person or thing; ONE in number; separate, individual, private; of or having to do with some single thing, person or instance; a thing, person or instance considered by itself; not general.

and also, there is this word that characterizes what is happening politically in the United States really well:

SINGULARIZATION:  noun.  1) a singularizing; 2) a transformation from the plural to the singular number.

The ELITE CAPITALIST CLASS and CULTURE and the DLC PROFESSIONAL MIDDLE CLASS and CULTURE through progressive binary division of the COMMON POPULATION’S CLASS and CULTURE are performing and have performed a “political singularization process” on the people of the United States as a whole, enforcing subjective laws of the DLC MIDDLE CLASS and the ARISTOCRACY, so that people of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION have to politically represent themselves individually without representation of class, culture and political party in the making and enforcement of law and order, as there is only ONE MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY, which doesn’t include the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION’S CLASS and CULTURE and we, of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION CLASS and CULTURE, must become aware.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 28, 2009 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 28 at 12:07 am #

REF: INHERIT THE WIND

“I suspect rhetorical ignorance ...?”

Is the phrase above an example? You sound like that foggyjones poster, sorry. Now there is a real special case.
******************************************

Sorry. You’ll have to ask MarthaA about it—it’s her phrase, not mine. Like “singularity” I have NO idea WTF it means.

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By Sepharad, May 28, 2009 at 12:05 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, you wrote “Bucking what is politically correct is risky business.” No kidding! But NOT bucking the pc when it’s wrong or dangerously misleading is even riskier.

The things I’ve learned and read and heard and thought about concerning the North and South, the Civil War, as well as racism past and present, are pretty diverse. The thing about history is that it continues to be interpreted, revised, critiqued, and never was an exact science to begin with. My background is a journalistic education with a double major in international studies (specifically middle east and central asia), but when my husband and I began thinking about editing and publishing a new kind of California history magazine (based on biography rather than dates and battles) I realized that I needed to study historiography and I did, immensely benefited by guidance from some of the finest Spanish Colonial historians working then, and also read what are widely regarded as “definitive” histories on various places and times, to learn what good historiography did, and how. Actually it’s pretty much like semantics, the primary rule being “the map is not the territory.” The more facts the better.

I’ve also always been interested in the Civil War, having grown up in St. Louis, Missouri—a border state that voted to join the Confederacy and then was invaded and occupied by Federal troops who physically removed the state’s legislators and replaced them with people handpicked by occupying Gen. John Fremont to comply with the wishes of his father-in-law and Missouri Senator Thomas Hart Benton, who was very big on Manifest Destiny. Benton and other proponents of ocean-to-ocean conquest and commerce considered the South’s resistance to tariffs and general disregard for the interests of big business in that it insisted on sending its cotton not north, to the Lowe family’s mills, but to English mills (who paid much more for the cotton), as much of an obstacle tothe big business of Manifest Destiny as were the unruly Mexicans and Indians—the latter of whom would be done away with as soon as the South was under control (led by Gen. George Armstrong Custer, a Yankee whose heroics at Gettysburg garnered him great respect). My parents considered Lincoln right up there with FDR, and of course I did too as a kid—but reading more specific books, reading back issues of Horace Greeley’s newspaper in which Lincoln made clear that he considered blacks as unfit to live in the same society as the whites and other things not mentioned in most history books in schools, caused me to seek out more information. This is a pretty fraught issue, and there are dozens of historic interpretations written from dozens of perspectives. But I tended to stick with what could be clearly documented. Read the papers and debates of Daniel Webster and Henry Clay, back when the North’s mercantilism was nearly displaced by the industrial (during which period the New England states nearly seceded) and also when the issue of Southern commercial practices were taken up. Unfortunately, by the time the issues that brought about the Civil War were heating up, both Webster and Clay were dead and the debate was carried on by more partisan and polarizing statesmen. Had that not been the case I believe the War could have been avoided. There are so many little things to put together, and the combination may mean one thing to one person and something else to another.

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By KDelphi, May 27, 2009 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA—“contrived rhetorical ignorance”.

I dont get it.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 27, 2009 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, May 27 at 6:08 pm #

KDelphi, Inherit The Wind, et al:

In the United States the ruling class has chosen to have a MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY, with no class and culture on the Right side of the MIDDLE; and no class and culture on the Left side of the MIDDLE, only a single MIDDLE CLASS singularity without the necessity of any class and culture on either side, and all individuals standing alone.  This is freedom and equality in the United States.

I suspect rhetorical ignorance on your part, but if not, I have a question.  Is there a body of persons considered to have certain social and other characteristics in common on the LEFT SIDE of the MIDDLE CLASS?  If so, what do you call that class and culture?  Please give an ingenuous answer without contrived rhetorical ignorance.

The Common Population in the United States or any country IS NOT only the poverty stricken, as is pushed in the United States.  The COMMON POPULATION is a whole CLASS of people who are NOT ARISTOCRAT or NEW MIDDLE CLASS.  In the broadest sense the Common Population is a class and culture.  A CLASS is a body of persons considered to have certain social and other characteristics in COMMON and a CULTURE in the broadest sense refers to all distinctively human activities within a CLASS, and includes achievements in every field, which man passes on from one generation to the next.  What do you term the title for the body of people both on the Left of the MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY and on the Right of the MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY?
***************************************

What kind of gibberish is this?  This is just a bunch of undefined terms strung together to try to sound like it means something.  WTF is a “singularity”?  I know what it is in cosmology (a Black Hole so dense it collapses all dimension into a single point).

And where is there one SHRED of evidence to back this up other than the poster’s on highly-biased experience and “feelings”?

I love totally unfounded assertions that not only are not universally accepted, but aren’t even GENERALLY accepted, but are, for the most part, rejected.

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi:

These questions need answering for understanding of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.  I take your lol to mean that you are engaging in contrived rhetorical ignorance.

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By KDelphi, May 27, 2009 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

Ok, Martha! lol

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By KDelphi, May 27, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

ardee—lol, how can you BE so condescending?? I dont need fixing!! (well, there is some surgery that would help my RA, but, of course, Medicaid doesnt cover that—nothing that could help you get BACk to work, they just want you to feel bad and be grateful)I just disagree with the mainstream, and, from what I know, that is a GOOD thing. The bourgeois in this country has always been deluded. You only go to “training schools” (Ivy League and such) and learn that you are one of the privileged and accepted. You think that you work harder than anyone else and deserve more than anyone else, and, that we should all be grateful for the crumbs.

This may seem personal for me, but, I assure you that it is not. I was angry as hell when I saw my clients live like this, and, now, it is worse. And, no thanks to Dems on that one.

The bailouts were a huge mistake and they are continuing them. There were many proposals to make the “elites” pay for some of the mess themselves, but all were rejected by a Dems Congress…

What you can “do with me” is give everyone what the UN considers to be their human rights.

ITW—Yes, truce. I admit, I am very touchy—-I had big plans, you see…I should know that, once on Medicaid, forget it.

I am sorry to hear about your job..that sucks. I hope you at least get unemployment and COBRA, if you can afford it. Didnt they pass a bill to help pay for that?

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2009 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, Inherit The Wind, et al:

In the United States the ruling class has chosen to have a MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY, with no class and culture on the Right side of the MIDDLE; and no class and culture on the Left side of the MIDDLE, only a single MIDDLE CLASS singularity without the necessity of any class and culture on either side, and all individuals standing alone.  This is freedom and equality in the United States.

I suspect rhetorical ignorance on your part, but if not, I have a question.  Is there a body of persons considered to have certain social and other characteristics in common on the LEFT SIDE of the MIDDLE CLASS?  If so, what do you call that class and culture?  Please give an ingenuous answer without contrived rhetorical ignorance. 

The Common Population in the United States or any country IS NOT only the poverty stricken, as is pushed in the United States.  The COMMON POPULATION is a whole CLASS of people who are NOT ARISTOCRAT or NEW MIDDLE CLASS.  In the broadest sense the Common Population is a class and culture.  A CLASS is a body of persons considered to have certain social and other characteristics in COMMON and a CULTURE in the broadest sense refers to all distinctively human activities within a CLASS, and includes achievements in every field, which man passes on from one generation to the next.  What do you term the title for the body of people both on the Left of the MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY and on the Right of the MIDDLE CLASS SINGULARITY?

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By ardee, May 27, 2009 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

Oh KDelphi, what to do about you….
KDelphi, May 27 at 11:37 am #

ardee—I also think that, with stagnant wages, rising prices, and, so many more filthy rich, the class situation , in ‘Merka, is worsening.
...

Every year of late there are less wealthy folks, every year there are less middle class folks as well. Here’s a small bit of rushed research:

One year later, nobody’s grinning. One-third of the millionaires have disappeared from Maryland tax rolls. In 2008 roughly 3,000 million-dollar income tax returns were filed by the end of April. This year there were 2,000, which the state comptroller’s office concedes is a “substantial decline.” On those missing returns, the government collects 6.25% of nothing. Instead of the state coffers gaining the extra $106 million the politicians predicted, millionaires paid $100 million less in taxes than they did last year—even at higher rates.

No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html

Now the WSJ uses that to arrive at an incorrect solution, dont depend upon the wealthy to increase tax revenue, rather than noting that the top 2% of the wealthiest are getting more wealthy, and the rest of us are losing ground.

....
So, yes, the class situation in our nation is getting worse, much worse, and has been for a very long time. Even when the economy was rolling along blissfully unaware of the fragile nature of its health the middle class was continuing to shrink, a very bad sign unless you are a fascist loving every shrinking statistic, for real fascists understand that a middle class is a real pest, educated folks who educate their kids and read and think and vote, what pains they are.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 27, 2009 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, May 27 at 11:29 am #


ITW—how did you expect me to respond? And, no I didnt know what J/K meant. Sorry. I was a little surprised since I thought we had come to something of a truce. I am sensitive about thinking that someone is calling me stupid, because I had ADD, and, because I have to go to a welfare office now, to beg for med treatment and everyone there just assumes you are an idiot. If you were kidding, I am sorry. I found out yesterday that I CANNOT take my new job and keep my med coverage, under any circumstances, so, I am very angry…I WANT to do this so badly..but, I cant…

********************************************

How do I expect you to respond? Well, if you did NOT know that “J/K” is standard for “Just Kidding” then I expect you to have responded as you did. 

If you DID know J/K was “Just Kidding”, then I would have expected you to laugh along with me at some good-natured, albeit rough, teasing.

I, too, had thought we reached a truce but your angry reaction (which I NOW understand) flabbergasted me. 

I’m not too happy these days either—Today marks 6 weeks I’ve been out of work, told my job was “eliminated” by new owners, after 15+ years of loyal service. I was the only one let go, and had been identified as “key personnel” to the business for the company’s sale by the previous owner.  So it means I pissed somebody off and I got the axe to “set an example” for the rest.  It did. I hear they are all terrified.

I wish you all the best—sometimes government rules suck.

New truce?

ITW.

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By KDelphi, May 27, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

ardee—I also think that, with stagnant wages, rising prices, and, so many more filthy rich, the class situation , in ‘Merka, is worsening. Although many still seem to think that the uS is “classless” (well, in one way, we are..lol)

I’ll give you a song, that is about common people..here: John Lennon

“..Keep ‘em doped on religion and sex and tv….and you think youre so clever and classless and free…but youre still fucking peasants, as far as I can see”

Peasants, your time is now… Unite and Carpe diem!!

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By KDelphi, May 27, 2009 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

Like I told Hawkeye—I HATE statistics, and I wasnt kidding..if my dad hadnt taught them, I never wouldve passed it, and, about all I retain, without a calculator, (and, I hate those,) is the ability to distinguish when someone is using stats over and over as a bullshit tool.

ITW—how did you expect me to respond? And, no I didnt know what J/K meant. Sorry. I was a little surprised since I thought we had come to something of a truce. I am sensitive about thinking that someone is calling me stupid, because I had ADD, and, because I have to go to a welfare office now, to beg for med treatment and everyone there just assumes you are an idiot. If you were kidding, I am sorry. I found out yesterday that I CANNOT take my new job and keep my med coverage, under any circumstances, so, I am very angry…I WANT to do this so badly..but, I cant…

Sepharad—You are correct, it doesnt matter. But, “two people” just keep pounding on the “70% COMMON POPULATION” im EVERY post, and it was driving me crazy as to wtf they were talking about. Then, I thought that maybe it really was something I had “missed”—havent found evidence of that.

My family was similar, except my parents were gOP!! Yes! Until Bush I—then, my dad said, “no blood for oil” and, my mom was too loaded to vote anymore. I did BA on loans, and grad school on Fellowship, from a hospital bed, to start.I was working class , when I could work, now I am well below poverty level. Illness and accident does that to 1000s of USAns every year, but, apparently, the Dems dont care.

All the years I worked with “disadvantaged"people, I felt so horrible about how they were forced to live , through no fault of their own, and fought, often arrested, for their rights, and, then—-there I was. In the same situation, and, my father got sick, my sister got sick and we were “broke” and will never be anything but poor again. So, I wont stop fighting about it, until its changed or I die. I know we’ve talked about it before, some. I am not self-righteous about it, I just never felt much good ever came of helping the “worried well”, so I always took “more interesting” clients…and I still love them and they do not deserve this. They deserve the money spent on Wall St to give them their human rights.

MathaA—I told you I’ve already read Ehrenreich and I agree with her on some things—-I saw her on c-span.org and she is not happy with Pres. Obama. The bulk of her work and effort is directed towards the working poor. I think that the rest of your “cp” stuff is useless.I cannot buy ANY book, since the new “credit card bill of rights” caused my 25 yr old credit card to switch me to an “adjustable rate”—I wondered why, until I saw the “bill”...Durbin was right about one thing—the banks OWN Congress! But!!—we got the loaded weapons in wildlife parks—yes, we got that!

Martha—the song about “common people”,,,lol..is not about your statistical—well, never mind.,. whatever you say. But, very nice of you to get youself down here with us common folk! Thanks!

I have a very old pc, so I cant go to the links until I log off of here…lememe try a couple of them.

ardee—You are right about it being difficult to classify people, as I can say before I see the sites. But, when you are really poor in ‘Merka, you know it like nowhere else. You know that your right to survive hems on the wishes and political whims of the elites and, it is an extremely frustrating situation. Especially, when you worked so hard to make it otherwise. You almost cannot believe where you are.So, yes, you become angry and stay that way until things seem more just.

It isnt JUST health care—all yu have to do , to end up begging for crappy social programs in the US, is place a bad bet, make one mistake. If you are rich, you are bailed out. If not—f-you.

In other , more civilized countries, these are human rights.And, the Dems are, per usual, doing nothing to advance these. That is what I see…

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By ardee, May 27, 2009 at 5:03 am Link to this comment

For KDelphi

If you are tired of gobbledygook,[ and who isnt?], you might want to peruse these demographics which show that it aint all that easy to classify folks.

Warning: tedious wading through statistical data but worth it in the end…and not one single sign of capitalisation for no apparent purpose!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2000/TheMuddleAbouttheMiddleClass.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

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By MarthaA, May 27, 2009 at 1:09 am Link to this comment

KDelphi:

Did you not see this in the article about the commoners, the commoners are 70% of the population starting from the bottom most rung and moving all the way up to the 20% Professional DLC NEW CLASS of gentile aristocrats that are afraid of falling in Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, “The Fear of Falling”, which is a book that all people of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION should read and can be bought relatively cheaply at http://www.alisbris.com:

“Fortunately, this unprecedented looting of the commons sparked a new movement of “commoners” who are standing up to protect things that belong to all of us. The commons is becoming a model for thinking differently about how we make decisions, manage resources and think about responsibilities. Some people now envision a commons-based society where shared wealth compounds our individual assets in “the pursuit of happiness.”

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/26-13

It is about time realization is hitting that there is a common population in America, commoners, the common people, because we commoners are not all aristocrats, just because we have in the United States two classes of aristocrats, the 10% elite aristocrats and capitalists and the 20% genteel DLC NEW CLASS aristocrats in the middle that separated out of the 90% COMMON POPULATION causing a division in the Democratic Party beyond repair without a new institutionalized political party to represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION that got left behind.

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By Sepharad, May 26, 2009 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi & Inherit the Wind—Enough already! You guys are among the (few) sanest sensitives on this site. Please shake hands (virtually).

Hawkeye—Re M.A.S.H. song, “suicide is painless”—perhaps—but not for the suicide’s survivors. And it’s a poor option in that it doesn’t change anything except eliminating the potential to change something.

KDelphi—Martha’s percentages aren’t as important as the fact that too many common people are getting screwed bigtime, educated or not.

As you know from experience, education doesn’t protect anyone economically. (Even so, my family held it above all other virtues. My dad had to drop out of school in third-grade to support his mother, disabled father and little brother, but he taught himself algebra, some engineering, vocabulary etc. My mom got a musical scholarship to Washington U. in St. Louis, but had to give it up when her father lost his job in the Depression and help support their family. So I was the first one to get a college degree—HAD to do it; sometimes seemed like my family never talked about anything butthe importance of education—though I had to work part-time throughout high school and college (full-time in summers). I value many things I learned in college—e.g. the classics and an awareness of all the books there were out there just waiting to be read, though had already figured that out as my mom was not just a communist but a bookworm—but my BJ degree was only economically useful in getting into Newspaper Guild, and I dropped out of the MJ school to work full-time for FoI Center, allowed to audit classes I would have taken in the actual master’s program while helping support kids and husband in grad school. As we both spent more time in social action projects and self-published history mag instead of regular jobs, couldn’t afford college tuition for oldest two kids when time came, but they got merit scholarships and somehow it worked. We aren’t rich, but not poor, and educated, but not elite. Husband is an extreme liberal/progressive who spends most of his money on medicine for me, horses, books, and things kids need we can supply, mainly supplementing youngest son’s post-radiation damaged facial bone reconstruction (10 years post-cancer) as his Medical covers very little and is about to be cut again. Anything left over, we travel.

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By Sepharad, May 26, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye, re your May 26 1:34 post—I’m a little puzzled. When Anthony Lewis referred to “the secret keepers” the Allies drove over the Rhine, he was referring to the Nazis and their spin-off fascists (Vichy et al). Has nothing at all to do with the South.

Inherit the Wind answered the SLN and related questions, but I don’t understand where you’re going with the rest of your post.

Though I was one of those civil rights workers than came down to register votes in the ‘60s, I also have fond feelings re the South and old friends there. I think the South gets a bad rap, as there are—always have been—just as many racists in the North. The horrible things that some Southerners have done in the past from Reconstruction on—lynching blacks, denying them civil rights—have their roots in the Civil War itself, which was about economics and not freeing slaves (except in the minds of the Abolitionists). Alexander de Toqueville was traveling in America when the Northern economy changed from mercantile to industrial, with the consequent end of the rum and slave trade. He reported that Northerners who had but no longer needed slaves sold them South, where the economy was still largely acricultural. Many Northern states, such as Ohio, enacted laws barring free blacks from their territory. President Lincoln didn’t issue the Emancipation Proclamation until 1863, to dissuade France and England from coming in on the South’s side. During the Civil War, in New York City in 1864, hundreds of black working men were hung from lamposts by white workers competing for jobs with them, during the draft riots. The greatest tragedy of the Civil War was that afterwards, the North felt it had all the right on its side whereas the evil racist South was all wrong. I believe that the bitterness among Southerners in the first half of the 20th century grew from being first impoverished and then demonized, and took this anger and bitterness out on black Southerners, the only people who were in worse shape than the white Southerners themselves. Bitterness and poverty yield bitter fruit. There were angry white people when we were registering voters and integrating public facilities, there was some violence and some killings, but if the entire white population had wanted to kill us there would have been a lot more deaths. The North and the West Coast are not exactly paradise for blacks. Remember the Detroit and Boston riots, the Watts riots? Demonizing a large hunk of American citizens lets all the rest feel good about themselves when they have racist attitudes. Political correctness is sometimes only skin-deep.

Re horse thieving punished by hanging, I’d have to disagree (opposed to capital punishment), BUT if anyone tried to steal on of my horses I’d probably try to shoot them in the leg, whack them with the largest board I could pick up, then wait till the sheriff came and claim self-defense.

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2009 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi:

Here is a url about the COMMON PEOPLE who are the 70% COMMON POPULATION: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLrsu9YWo4

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2009 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

The 70% COMMON POPULATION consists of COMMON PEOPLE, here is the words to a song about COMMON PEOPLE, although all common people do not have roaches climbing the walls, as most have learned not to bring the paper bags home from the grocery stores:

COMMON PEOPLE

She came from Greece, she had a thirst for knowledge

She studied sculpture at Saint Martin’s College

That’s where I caught her eye.

She told me that her Dad was loaded

I said “In that case I’ll have a rum and coca-cola”

She said “fine”
And in thirty seconds time she said,

“I want to live like common people

I want to do whatever common people do,

I want to sleep with common people

I want to sleep with common people like you”

Well what else could I do?

I said “I’ll see what I can do”


I took her to a supermarket

I don’t know why

But I had to start it somewhere

So it started there.

I said “Pretend you’ve got no money”

But she just laughed

And said “oh you’re so funny”.

I said “yeah?

Well I can’t see anyone else smiling in here”.

Are you sure you want to live like common people

You want to see whatever common people see

You want to sleep with common people,

You want to sleep with common people like me.

But she didn’t understand,

She just smiled and held my hand.

Rent a flat above a shop,

Cut your hair and get a job.

Smoke some fags and play some pool,

Pretend you never went to school.

But still you’ll never get it right

‘cos when you’re laid in bed at night

Watching roaches climb the wall

If you called your Dad he could stop it all.

You’ll never live like common people

You’ll never do whatever common people do

You’ll never fail like common people

You’ll never watch your life slide out of view,

And dance and drink and screw

Because there’s nothing else to do.

Sing along with the common people,

Sing along and it might just get you thru’

Laugh along with the common people

Laugh along even though they’re laughing at you

And the stupid things that you do.

Because you think that poor is cool.

Like a dog lying in a corner,

They will bite you and never warn you

Look out, they’ll tear your insides out

‘cos everybody hates a tourist

Especially one who thinks

It’s all such a laugh

Yeah!

And the chip stains’ grease

Will come out in the bath

You will never understand

How it feels to live your life

With no meaning or control

And with nowhere left to go

You are amazed that they exist

And they burn so bright

Whilst you can only wonder why

Rent a flat above a shop

Cut your hair and get a job

Smoke some fags and play some pool

Pretend you never went to school

But still you’ll never get it right

‘cause when you’re laid in bed at night

Watching roaches climb the wall

If you called your dad he could stop it all

Yeah!


You’ll never live like common people

You’ll never do whatever common people do

You’ll never fail like common people

You’ll never watch your life slide out of view

And then dance and drink and screw

Because there’s nothing else to do

I want to live with common people like you…..

http://www.paradise-engineering.com/quotation/commonpeople.html

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By Inherit The Wind, May 26, 2009 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, May 27 at 2:20 am #

Well, f*ck you very much, ITW! You might as well say stupid, considering the company you keep these days…you actually think that that stuff makes sense, eh? Must be getting senile.
**********************************************

I was KIDDING YOU, KD!

“J/K” means “Just Kidding”.

Remind me NEVER to defend you again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and now I’m not kidding.

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2009 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi:

Do you like pie?  Cut a pie in thirds, make one piece 10% of the pie, make another piece 20% of the pie and make the last piece 70% of the pie.  Forget everything else.  The 70% of the pie is the LEFT-WING’S COMMON POPULATION, the COMMONERS, and all things common to the common population is the COMMONS in any state or nation; the 10% of the pie is the RIGHT-WING’S Elite Capitalists Class which is the GOP aristocrats - the autocratic REPUBLICAN BASE consisting of the elite and corporate CEO’s and their families; the 20% is the LEFT-WING’S Professional DLC NEW CLASS of aristocrats and their families that separated out of the common population to form a 2nd aristocratic class. 

Politics is leadership of constituents in their best interest and leadership of non-constituents against their best interest.

Constituents of the 70% COMMON POPULATION have no representation in Congress because there are only two institutionalized political parties. In my state it’s a felony to write in a candidate. These two aristocratic classes only represent themselves.

Should be is correct.  Part of the 70% COMMON POPULATION swing back and forth between Dems and Repubs and neither party represents them, because they are of the 70% COMMON POPULATION, that the DLC NEW CLASS separated FROM and the REPUBLICANS never have ever represented anyone of the COMMON POPULATION, NEVER HAVE—NEVER WILL; because REPUBLICANS represent big CAPITAL, revenue streams, of which the COMMON POPULATION know little about, much less have acquired.

If you are on MEDICAID, that means you do not have any capital, or if you did, you had to sign it all to the government to be on MEDICAID, because you are of the COMMON POPULATION and cannot afford health care, as will most of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION sooner or later.

In the United States the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION are in need of representation in all legislative, executive and judicial branches of both Federal and State governments.

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 8:32 pm Link to this comment

There is nothing at that link about the “70% COMMON POPULATION”.

It is about the “commons”—things we all own in common. And, that they are under threat. And that most didnt notice them until the “crash”—well, I did.

There’s this:

Published on Wednesday, December 6, 2006 by the Financial Times
Richest 2% Hold Half the World’s Assets


And its all over truthdig by Martha or ThomasG—its not in that article.

And, its not in a google search—neither is “economics..the rule of 70/30” as Hawkeye suggested.

I just do not see it.

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment

Well, f*ck you very much, ITW! You might as well say stupid, considering the company you keep these days…you actually think that that stuff makes sense, eh? Must be getting senile.

MarthA—You are still not answering the questions.

I went to CD—just for you!

All I found upon searching “70% COMMON POPULATION” (um, I didnt use the caps!)
was an article from 2/18/2008, about the Electoral College trying to “subvert the 70% common population” by nominating Hillary Clinton , and furthermore, it was in a quote. Is THAT what you were talking about??

Why didnt you just say “popular vote”?? Or was there a ref there that I missed?

I still stand by what I said about CD…but I can see why you would like it there…it is a Dem Party sponsored site.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 26, 2009 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, May 26 at 5:02 pm #

ITW—as you well know, I can be kind, I can be a bitch, depending on the person and their attitude towards me. You havent shown alot of sensitivity so dont get too excited. You can be the king of caps and !!!!!!!!!!

***************************************************

DON’T FORGET “STUPID”, TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(J/K, KD—but it was too hard for this insensitive SOB to resist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!—SORRRRRRY!!!!!)

I never claimed to be showing sensitivity here, so there’s nothing lost.  I don’t mind “nasty”, I just mind stupid nasty.

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

MarthA—You had not said that before—good thing youre not a teacher!! So you mean GOP!

So what is “condsidered still the commons”, because as far s I can tell, everything is privitized—-Clinton was the worst.

Yes, I want to “believe I’m an elite” on Medicaid, ok.I’m not stupid, I have a BA, Cum Laude (you guys sure think that stuff is important, right?) and an MS.

It still doesnt make sense to me, is it that 70% are Dems, or should be, youre really not explaining it and I guess i’ll just sit up all night, thinking how smart you are.

I can plant stats here to say something different.(didnt you learn that in statistics, hawkeye??) I dont believe anything that multi-millionsire Craig brown prints on CD, because he bans anyone that is truly progressive—or truly conservative, for that matter—you must really like it there!

He is a neo-liberal a-hole, just like the Democrats.

The GOP are neo-conservative a-holes.

Take your pick.

Ok, so define, (yourself, not someone else, you use it so much) “COMMON POPULATION”—that they “own” the “commons” or are “common people” or it is the 70% “working classes” or just Dems, or what?? The 30% make more money or dont work? I am not going to CD, so you will have to explain it to me…

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By MarthaA, May 26, 2009 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi:

The 30% Ruling Class of the fascist United States has been written out here numerous times, and if you are not getting it, it is because you choose not to get it, for reasons known only to you.  Anyway, just in case, here it is, again:

10% are the RIGHT-WING’S ELITE CAPITALIST CLASS—of which 1% or more are the elite and 9% or less are corporate CEO’s and their families. 

20% are the LEFT-WING’S PROFESSIONAL MIDDLE CLASS of Corporate DLC NEW CLASS “toadies” to the RIGHT-WING’S 10% Elite Capitalist Class and of course, their families.

The 70% COMMON POPULATION isn’t rocket science, it’s everyone else.  I just read an article about the commons, the common population is who uses the commons. The commons is everything common to the common population, which is 70% of the population. Here is an excerpt and the url:

“All these things are part of what is now being called “the commons,” and they are more important than ever.”

“...the commons are vulnerable to exploitation by those who seize an opportunity for personal gain at public expense.”

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/26-13

It is hard for people of the common population to understand that they are of the 70% common population, the commons, because they wishfully want to be the elite, or something close to it, even if only as gentile elite [elite on credit]; there is only one elite aristocracy and the corporations who grabbed onto the government with fascism to form the 10% Elite Capitalist Class.

If you are not of the Elite Capitalist “Billionarire” Class or the PROFESSIONAL “Millionaire” DLC “toady” NEW CLASS, you are a member of the 70% COMMON POPULATION and will suffer the slings and arrows of the COMMON POPULATION.

70/30—- 70% commons, 30% ruling.  Check the statistics, there will seldom be less than 30% supporting the REPUBLICANS and those are the ruling class.

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—So you are saying that the “elites” are 30% and 70% are laborers?? How could it possibely be that high? 30% ? Over what income level? Isnt it, like ,5% control 90% of the wealth? I REALLY do not get what you are talking about.

Is it possible that I am not dumb and you are not explaining it very well?

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 3:44 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—Sorry, I just dont understand what you are talking about.

Maybe not so much metaphor??

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

sorry, it just ‘sent” it—-it does that when threads get long.

Hawkeye, when I take your MASH post a little seriouly, you get defenseive…so I figured you were being terse. (What do you mean to “kindly remind myself that our emotional state is not static”, or do you just mean yours? You said “ours”.) I do not know what that means. I simply do not understand what you are trying to say.

Then, I ask someone else what they mean by a quote that they use constantly, under different names,different topics and I get a reply from you that implies that I am stupid for not “getting” the “70% COMMON POPULATION” (dont forget the caps).

What is it that you are trying to say? I tried to go back and paste some quotes from you, brt, the thread is too long. I dont understand your tone—-try some emoti-cons or seomthing.

ITW—as you well know, I can be kind, I can be a bitch, depending on the person and their attitude towards me. You havent shown alot of sensitivity so dont get too excited. You can be the king of caps and !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

ITW—Nice of you to jump in! Why is he “sensitive”—because you “spar with me”??

Hawkeye—I am afraid I am having trouble figuring out what you are talking about.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 26 at 4:09 pm #

REF: KDelphia

You are a very, very sensitive and contemplative person. I kindly suggest to you to remind yourself that our emotional state is not static.

In any case, the M.A.S.H. theme always comes back to stalk me, like the “Black Dog,” and can be hard to shake. I wonder how many people have been spurred to an early demise by Johnny Mandel’s “masterpiece.”
********************************

FYI
Mandel only wrote the music. The words were penned by Robt. Altman’s teenaged son.  He was either 14 or 15 at the time.  But only Mandel got credit on the TV show because…they didn’t sing the song.

Sounds like you’re the sensitive one here.  KD and I have sparred many times.

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By Paracelsus, May 26, 2009 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Sing it now, “The game of life is hard to play…youre gonna lose it anyway..”

Woo, talk about weaponized culture!

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By KDelphi, May 26, 2009 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye—I was addressing whatever person uses the name MarthA AND ThomasG—-they use that stupid “70% COMMON POPULATION” in every post, whether related or not.

I had statistics and i hated it—stf what??  Is your real name ‘hawyeye”? Well, I’ll let you in on a secret,mines not KDelphi—-!@

I still do not know what they mean by it, yes, I saw their wikipedia definitin, but, I wanted to know what they meant by it, ok?

You know, when you first posted her, you quoted the MASH theme song, and, I said, that, no, it wasnt a good idea, (you said that it was) but maybe I was wrong.

Sing it now, “The game of life is hard to play…youre gonna lose it anyway..”

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By Paracelsus, May 26, 2009 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

Speaking of secret keepers, has anyone heard about officials from Obama’s administration meeting with Bilderberger attendees?

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=7AF7B3CD-18FE-70B2-A8D16EECC0ECC470

A handful of high-ranking Obama administration officials this month delivered private briefings at the annual invitation-only conference held by an elite international organization known as the Bilderberg group.

The closed meeting of some of the most powerful business, media and political leaders in North America and Western Europe heard from top Obama diplomats James Steinberg and Richard Holbrooke, who detailed the administration’s foreign policy, while economic adviser Paul Volcker, chairman of President Obama’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board, also gave a presentation at the heavily guarded seaside resort in Greece that hosted the event.

The Bilderberg group, which takes its name from the Dutch hotel where it held its first meeting in 1954, exists solely to bring together between 100 and 150 titans of politics, finance, military, industry, academia and media from North America and Western Europe once a year to discuss world affairs.

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By Inherit The Wind, May 26, 2009 at 4:31 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 26 at 1:34 am #

REF: Sepharad

I never hung out with “secret keepers,” knowingly. I prefer the common touch, say what you mean and mean what you say. Any two-bit, jack-leg peddler can put one over on trusting, decent people. It is a good way to live. A true blessing. But when you first fool me, shame on me. Do it again and shame on you.

Until the ARMs loans and skullduggery by the Boys from NYC who came down south, the S&Ls; were doing a great job, more or less. But they schemed and plotted with some politicians and everything change. But, hell, they weren’t through, were they?

I think the concept of outwitting the rubes and suckers looked like easy pickings. But maybe they might, yet, get some justice.

Piracy and horse theiving was once a hanging offense. Oughta still be a hanging offense. Ordinary folks never forget. You can bank on that.

What goes around, comes around. You can bank on that, too. It ain’t over til its over.
****************************************

Talking in “code” are we? Poor innocent Southerners, minding their own business, keeping society ordered and hangin’ uppity n*****s when those rotten Northern lib’rals started interferin’ and messin’ it up.

The ONE think I never liked about the South was they always sought scapegoats for their problems.

As for bankers, newbie, Bank of America, which had been a San Francisco bank, was taken over by North Carolina National Bank—NCNB but the BOA name was kept.  NCNB is a Charlotte-based bank run by good ole boys.  So a MAJOR player among the very go-go bankers that got us into this mess came right out of the Old South. 

Another one right out of North Carolina was….Wachovia.  More good ole boys. I moved to NC when both NCNB and Wachovia were ONLY North Carolina banks. Even then, NCNB was agressive—30 years ago—pushing credit cards on students.

So you can drop the “code” speak. Southern banks and bankers are some of the MOST aggressive risk-takers in the business.  Not just Northerners.

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By ardee, May 26, 2009 at 4:05 am Link to this comment

Hawkeye, May 25 at 9:19 pm #

I asked you a simple question, you fail to do me the courtesy of answering. Is it possible that you and the hag just made the phrase up, Google hasnt a clue either.

To the rest of this forum:

I apologize for descending into the pit with the Queen of senility, I will no longer respond to her or anyone’s sophomoric insults and stupidities, but stick to fact and logic in my efforts. I will simply choose to ignore those who add nothing to this process.

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By ardee, May 26, 2009 at 3:59 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, May 25 at 5:59 pm #

ardee

judgments on degrees of rudeness can be time consuming especially in the parcing.

All this time I thought ardee was a whining Nader fan only to find out he is right wing conservative extremest aka: Republican.  He should be ashamed of himself, seems deception in politics has taken a new twist.
................

Sadly you have become a jackass, sorry but your desire to prove your own intellectual worth supercedes your desire to post with clarity, logic or truth.

I am a republican now in your increasingly disordered world, why? Because some nutjob decrepit old hag has stalked me from thread to thread? Because I responded to her idiocies and incoherence with a milder rudeness than that she shows me or the truth in the matter.

One might note that this latest diatribe stemmed from a question I asked another, one Hawkeye, who disappeared from the thread without bothering to answer the question. Thus I am a republican…no, sorry, you are a moron for even suggesting such a stupid supposition.

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By Sepharad, May 25, 2009 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

johannes—Have been off awhile (mostly training one horse and nursing two others) but wanted to respond to your several posts that make a lot of sense to me. Providing decent health care to all citizens is obviously more important than a country’s deficit, and I wish we were as wise in that regard as your government it. We have a deficit anyway; might as well have well-cared for citizens as well. In this particular regard, the French economy sets a standard that we so far have failed to achieve.

Re problems you are having with your immigrants and suggest we will be having with ours, it is indeed a dilemma when a multi-cultural country tries to preserve some semblance of its tolerance and democratic practices while also assimilating the many different cultural traditions. The line I believe needs to be drawn is at the law of the land. There can be no tolerance for different laws from other traditions that contradict the nation’s laws. For example, Shari’iah cannot be applied in a non-Islamic non-theocracy country. If people want to practice different religions or none at all, observing different holidays etc., that is OK, indeed the point of a democratic system. But if people want to to introduce a different legal system, that is not OK. If the Shari’iah law is the most important element of a society for some people, they should live where it is the law of the land, and not attempt to reshape the legal landscape of a secular country.

You also suggest that some people manipulate and use principles of a democratic society to its detriment in terms of enabling them to do it harm. This is certainly true, and it happens, but it’s more important for the democratic society to continue observing its own laws and principles because however inconvenient in the short term these principles protect us in the longer term. Recall reading a column by Anthony Lewis in the NYTimes, when the classification debate was raging back in the ‘70s. Lewis pointed out that in WWII the open societies were at some disadvantage, but in the end “we drove the secret-keepers over the Rhine.”

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By KDelphi, May 25, 2009 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

The “70% COMMON POPULATION” uses many disguises…but, I still dont understand wtf the person is talking about statistically…

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By radson, May 25, 2009 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Hey Eugene are you there (Thomas G)
When I post on the internet, it is to raise awareness, not to pander, parce, argue and contend in support of a lower standard of awareness.

There are enough savant pedants already pandering, parcing, arguing and contending over binary issues of rhetorical propaganda; that is, in fact, nothing more than cargo on the Ship of State, that will not and can not change the course of the Ship of State.

It is time for a change in the course of the Ship of State, rather than to pander, parce, argue and contend over the cargo on board the Ship of State.

Wow that’s quite the statement that a new guy is imposing on the TDers .At first the thread made sense and had a progressive debate , then it became a cheap talk show (Oprah would be proud).Your ships of state are probably all registered in Liberia and your flagship is more than likely the Californian (read the history of the Titanic ) if your not sure .Not that i agree with Leonardo spitting all over the place ,parce ce que votre philosophie est nul ,but what is your Shoelution compared to the French model.

Cheers

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By ThomasG, May 25, 2009 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit The Wind:

This is posted on our wall for the children:

Savant knowledge is knowledge without understanding.

Example:  I know what you said.  I heard what you said the first time and I don’t know what it means!!!!  Do not keep repeating what I do not have the ability to understand!!!!

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2009 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

Hawkeye:


The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

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By MarthaA, May 25, 2009 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

ardee:

There you go again, being muddled and confused, even thinking I’m on your back.

I actually can’t say you had any coherency, but what coherency you may have had, you have totally lost while impolitely cussing and calling me your family names.  Why are you so emotional?

Try Midol or Prozac.  If you’re taking Prozac, DOUBLE YOUR DOSE, so the stigma of CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING REPUBLICAN EXTREMISM no longer causes you to irrationally explode/implode.  Do you realize you totally missed answering whether or not you read rockinrobin’s post on this thread?

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By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2009 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

Hey, a cat-fight and I’m not in it!

grin

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By Inherit The Wind, May 25, 2009 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

ThomasG, May 25 at 12:06 pm #

When I post on the internet, it is to raise awareness, not to pander, parce, argue and contend in support of a lower standard of awareness.

There are enough savant pedants already pandering, parcing, arguing and contending over binary issues of rhetorical propaganda; that is, in fact, nothing more than cargo on the Ship of State, that will not and can not change the course of the Ship of State.

It is time for a change in the course of the Ship of State, rather than to pander, parce, argue and contend over the cargo on board the Ship of State.
*****************************************

Yeah, that’s what they all say.

But in reality you and all your fellow preachers of whatever “religion” you are touting think we are all so f***ing dumb you have to post the same endlessly long piece of nonsense multiple times. 

The assumption is that we are all too dumb to find it where it MAY be relevant so you insult the s*** out of us by posting it everywhere.  It means YOU think everyone on TD is too stupid to find your work of genius and you have to force-feed us to “edu-mi-cate” us, whether it’s relevant or not.  Guess what? You’re not the first nor will you be the last to try this.

I’ll bet even “The Contingent” is with me on this one!

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By Leefeller, May 25, 2009 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

ardee

judgments on degrees of rudeness can be time consuming especially in the parcing. 

All this time I thought ardee was a whining Nader fan only to find out he is right wing conservative extremest aka: Republican.  He should be ashamed of himself, seems deception in politics has taken a new twist.

A friend of mine as an author had attempted to write a book Titled: “Republicans I met who use Logic”, after much time and research, it seems he has decided and turned to writing fiction.

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By ardee, May 25, 2009 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

MarthaA, May 25 at 2:51 pm #

Were I not so unfailingly polite I might request that you commit an anatomically impossible task upon yourself, but I am so I wont.

Get the hell off my back . You post like a juvenile, or perhaps a victim of senility. I asked for a definition of a term, FROM SOMEONE ELSE in fact, witch.

Your posts are muddled, confusing , almost impossible to read with all that shouting
( childish capitalizations). Worst of all they betray a complete lack of political savvy.

Lastly what family name do you refer to? No insults were posted until you put them in your own feeble effort .

Please do not forget to take your medications, they are obviously needed.

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MarthaA's avatar

By MarthaA, May 25, 2009 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

ardee:

Don’t call me your family names.  YOU are the one complaining about a lack of understanding of simple concepts.

CAPS are on CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING REPUBLICAN EXTREMISTS, because CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING REPUBLICANS are EXTREMISTS, always have been. CONSERVATIVE EXTREMISTS are what has caused the economic woes of our nation and the world. The CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST BASE of the REPUBLICAN PARTY.  BTW, You must have failed to read rockinrobin’s post on this thread?

As for knowledge, YOU may be an encyclopedia of knowledge, but apparently without understanding, being led by every wind of doctrine.  Understanding can’t be found in any encyclopedic book, or on Google.  Knowledge is NOT understanding.  Encyclopedic knowledge, even with excellent memory and recall is FAR from understanding.  You say that age is no arbiter of knowledge, which is correct, but knowledge is not what is in question.  You apparently have lots of knowledge, but knowledge without understanding makes a person, any person, a SAVANT.  Are you saying you are a SAVANT?  A great many of the people in the United States are SAVANTS, having been made savants by the public school system and the media.

If one isn’t a SAVANT, age brings understanding, especially after at least 21 years of age when both sides of your brain grows together.

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By ardee, May 25, 2009 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, May 25 at 11:10 am #

Ardee,

“folks obsessed with proving how clever they are”.

Change clever to right. 
......................

Change right to increasingly pompous, sadly.
..................................
MarthaA, May 25 at 11:35 am #

ardee:

You must be a tween or a teen?  What grade are you in? I wonder because you say you lack understanding that comes naturally with age.
......................

Forgetting for a moment that age is no arbiter of knowledge, also putting aside the fact that it is you who fills her posts with capital letters for reasons unknown to me but seemingly childish to a fault, or makes up phrases and then chastises those who ask for enlightenment as to what the hell they mean.

Instead lets fasten upon the fact that I am the father of four, grandfather of fourteen and two thirds and certainly old enough to qualify for social security benefits. Lets also note that I told you this very fact not all that long ago.

Perhaps, were I as mean spirited and arrogant as you I would add that perhaps you are TOO old for intelligent debate…But I am not so I wont.

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