If you have nothing to contribute to the topic then please go to another forum. How does “Timon” have anything to do in any way with Israel/Palestine? Or Iran? I would submit, nothing at all.

“In diplomatic circles, in Europe as well as the Arab states, there has been discussion of the possibility of Iran’s being designated a “civil nuclear power,” exercising its right, under the Nonproliferation Treaty (which it has signed), to develop power for civilian uses.”—Wm Pfaff

For whatever you think of Iran, they are following international law and Israel isn’t. So why is Iran so put upon and Israel isn’t? Look to its monstrously large and imposing patron the USA. That and how the UN is used by the USA for its own aggrandizement or ignored as it thinks need be. Now Iran started its nuclear energy program under the Shah Reza Palavi (installed on the Peacock throne by the USA in 1953) until his death in 1979 and the revolution soon after.

How would the world operate if human rights and morality were the only means to deal with other countries where nothing else would or could supercede it? Humanity and morality first over economics.

In many ways Israel and USA affect each other in their actions respectively. They copy from each other in ways that are bad for many. The wrong lessons learned including the bad faith negotiations that are used by both of them against the Palestinians. This must end.

oggyjones, May 17 at 11:00 pm #

REF: ardee

must have struck a nerve. so sorry.

....

Nope, no nerve, only puzzlement at unnecessarily cryptic comments to no apparent purpose.

REF: ardee

must have struck a nerve. so sorry.

foggyjones, May 16 at 7:14 pm #

Do you mean Timon, the character in th eLion King, or Timon the misanthrope?

Its remarkable how incomprehensible many of your efforts are, and I wonder at the cause.

(..,)

SATURDAY     606 PM/CST DFW/USA

Oh, my goodness :/

this is another important step in gaining true humility. I am unworthy but it is the right path. Hubris and pride - the path to hell?

I have read more on the actual script of “Timon” and suspect he was knew just enough to be a danger to himself, apart from others. Perhaps, humility is the ultimate truth. Perhaps all verbose, proud people only prove that either they are acting or truly fools.

oggyjones, May 16 at 1:24 am #

SATURDAY   1210 PM/CST DFW/USA

..............................
(I have not even figured out how you managed to put a smiley face on this site!?)

Simply put the standard abbreviated two dots and a comma in place and the site automatically converts it to that cartoon..

But the real smiley face comes from factual and honest posting I think…..

SATURDAY     1210 PM/CST DFW/USA

REF: Paracelsus

I puzzle myself, sometimes. I have always said that Shakespeare was the greatest. But if he was the greatest, why did I not take more time to read more and attend more plays? I must be a hypocrite.

In any case, passages like you posted stops me and triggers thought. Many years ago I was looking up words like “bodkin” and “contumely,” but I am only more lazy than I was then. My goodness, if only I had had a snazzy PC with a big hi-def monitor in those days.

So, now I can go back and chew on your latest passage. I assure you that I didn’t get it on the first pass. My latest “favorite” pearl of wisdom these days is: When the finger points to the moon, the fool stares at the finger.

(I have not even figured out how you managed to put a smiley face on this site!?)

It all begs the question of why in the hell can’t such people change? No, the experts seem to agree anybody like Timons have gone too far. Yikes!

Those are the ingredients of good tragedy, horrible flaws. Character is destiny. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in our selves. I like Shakespeare better than the bible. LOL. I suppose people could change, but is so rare. But when it comes to self examination, by all means be the rare one. As Baltasar Gracien once said,“Do not persist in folly.” Schopenhauer praised him heavily. I do remember William Blake saying, “If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise.” But I suppose that is another way saying that experience is a costly teacher, provided that you survive the folly. As to the human condition, “Oh Lord, what fools these mortals be!” Perhaps, it is just as well, “A tale told by an idiot. All sound and fury signifying nothing.” Sorry, I sound like a Presbyterian minister.

Speaking of that “old bard,” your earlier reference to “Timons of Athens” prompted me to do a search for that play. It is one that I never read, let alone studied. Just a title before your comment.

I was able to check out the DVD of the play at the public library. Then I would consult my Riverside Shakespeare every time I heard some exquisite verses. I think the finest exposition of Shakespeare comes from The Riverside Shakespeare. It is a rather massive book, but the plays are readable(large print), and there are many introductions to the plays that give you an excellent understanding of the Elizabethan era. It is a handsome book. It has many illustrations. There is nothing abridged about it.

Timon of Athens would probably exaggerate the worst features of cynicism into a sort of nihilism as the main character is way too generous and gullible in the beginning to hold onto his wealth.

If you have the means I would recommend the Criterion Collection of Shakespeare on DVD. The tales of Richard the III and King Lear are especially poignant and well told. I especially remember, “Out vile jelly! Where is thy lustre now?” But I have a morbid temperament at times.

As to Timon, I like his address to the meretrices, prostitutes. I think of it when I think of politicians.

Whores: Gives us some gold, good Timon, hast thou more?

Timon: Enough to make a whore forswear her trade,
And to make whores, a bawd. Hold up you sluts,
Your aprons mountant. You are not oathable,
Although I know you’ll swear, terribly swear
Into strong shudders to heavenly agues
Th’ immortal gods that hear you. Spare your oaths;
I’ll trust to your conditions, be whores still.
And he whose pious breath seeks to convert you,
Be strong in whore, allure him, burn him up…

FRIDAY   941 PM/CST   DFW/USA

REF: Paracelsus

Thank you for the update.

Speaking of that “old bard,” your earlier reference to “Timons of Athens” prompted me to do a search for that play. It is one that I never read, let alone studied. Just a title before your comment.

Have not read it yet but hurriedly read several reviews, synopsis etc. What I read of the play led to other searches regarding others with what amounts to an incurable disorder. One piece refers to a dozen famous fictional characters whom become grumpy and hopelessly alienated.

Timons is even a worse case than Diogenes. At least the man-in-the barrel was amusing to most. How can not most Athenians and their children be a little amused by the man with the lantern searching for an honest man (or woman)?

It all begs the question of why in the hell can’t such people change? No, the experts seem to agree anybody like Timons have gone too far. Yikes!

Paracelsus, you post superior compositon than the rest of us. Furthermore, you appear to have inside access to better information. Please continue, and I hope you are genuine. Rest assured, some of us are reading with rapt attention.

Hello Foggie:

I assure you I have no inside access. I have a skeptical attitude. That is all. And thereby hangs a tale I never get tired of the old bard.

The latest news about Israel alleges that the CIA has published a report saying that Israel will disappear in 20 years. Unfortunately I have only been able to source the story to Iran and Russia’s Press TV. As to Israel’s chances for survival into the future I am inclined to think that Israel will not be able to rely on the United States as that nation will be bankrupt by 2011. Therefore there could be a migration of Israelis out of Israel, but I doubt the veracity of the CIA study as publicized by Press TV.

Saving Israel From Itself

The two-state solution is the only way to guarantee the Jewish state’s long-term security—and our own.

By John J. Mearsheimer

May 15, 2009 “The American Conservative”—The United States and Israel fundamentally disagree about the need to establish a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. President Obama is committed to a two-state solution, while Israel’s Prime Minister Netanyahu is opposed and has been for many years. To avoid a direct confrontation with Washington, Netanyahu will probably change his rhetoric and talk favorably about two states. But that will not affect Israel’s actions. The never-ending peace process will go on, Israel will continue building settlements, and the Palestinians will remain locked up in a handful of impoverished enclaves in the West Bank and Gaza. Anticipating this outcome, Obama has told Congress to expect a clash with Israel.

This is not a fight Obama is likely to win, even though the United States is more powerful than Israel and most Americans favor creating a Palestinian state and bringing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a close.

Look at the historical record. Since 1967, every American president has opposed settlement-building in the Occupied Territories. Yet no president has been able to put meaningful pressure on Israel to stop building settlements, much less dismantle them. Perhaps the best evidence of American impotence is what happened during the Oslo peace process in the 1990s. Israel confiscated 40,000 acres of Palestinian land, constructed 250 miles of connector and bypass roads, doubled the number of settlers, and built 30 new settlements. President Clinton did hardly anything to halt this expansion.

The main reason no president has been able to stop Israel from colonizing the Occupied Territories is the Israel lobby. It is an especially powerful interest group that has pushed the American government to establish a “special relationship” with Israel, which is, as Yitzhak Rabin once said, “beyond compare in modern history.”

The special relationship means Washington gives Israel consistent, almost unconditional diplomatic backing and more foreign aid than any other country. In other words, Israel gets this aid even when it does things that the United States opposes, like building settlements. Furthermore, Israel is rarely criticized by American officials and certainly not by anyone who aspires to high office. Recall what happened earlier this year to Charles Freeman, who was forced to withdraw as head of the National Intelligence Council because he had criticized certain Israeli policies and questioned the merits of the special relationship.

Many hope that Obama will be different from his predecessors and stand up to the lobby. The indications thus far are not encouraging. During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama responded to charges that he was “soft” on Israel by pandering to the lobby and publicly praising the special relationship. He was silent during the recent Gaza War—when Israel was being criticized around the world for its brutal assault on that densely populated enclave—and he said nothing when Freeman was forced to quit his administration. Like his predecessors, Obama appears to be no match for the lobby.

Israel’s supporters in the United States often claim that the special relationship is not due to the lobby’s influence. The American people, they argue, identify closely with Israel and put significant pressure on their leaders to support it generously and unconditionally. But there is abundant evidence showing that this is not true. Recent polls indicate that over 70 percent of Americans think that the U.S. should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and only 47 percent of Americans think that Israel’s influence in the world is “mainly positive.” “

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22627.htm

FRIDAY         324/CST   DFW/USA

REF: Paracelsus

I am delighted to see that you are back, posting. I, for one, will need time to digest all this material. One thing that smacked me between the eyes are the references to Nero and Caligula etc.

Not entirely apart from your thesis, I was shocked last night when I chanced across a buried news item regarding my metro area. In my opinion, the “secret police” arrested a very important person and was photographed and defamed in the principal mainstream local media. I read the report and viewed the published photo and was both digusted and alarmed.

They come in the night. The role of mainstream media is grossly underestimated in this virtual war underway.

Paracelsus, you post superior compositon than the rest of us. Furthermore, you appear to have inside access to better information. Please continue, and I hope you are genuine. Rest assured, some of us are reading with rapt attention. Not since the uneasy colonists hid behind bolt doors has there been a time like this in this nation. War? Seige? Straw men, posers and deceivers and traitors abound and things are more than a little confusing. Few are prepared to move in this confusing situation.

Kaminski’s Rantings

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/blog/?p=165

All the great civilizations were destroyed by decadence from within.
Nero and Caligula were Jews and did their best to destroy Rome. Joseph
brought plagues to Egypt. Jewish financiers bankrolled the Bolshevik
Revolution. Now we have homosexual prostitutes in the White House press
corps and in TV newsrooms.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=49&letter=C

Jewish Delegates to Caligula.

Meanwhile, Caligula’s madness almost caused calamity to the Jews of Palestine also. The heathens of Jamnia, a seaport largely peopled with Jews, provoked the latter and exhibited their own loyalty by erecting an altar in honor of Caligula. Forthwith the Jews demolished it. Herennius Capito, the procurator, reported this to Caligula, who, infuriated, sent an order that his image be placed in the Temple at Jerusalem. Petronius, the governor of Syria, was ordered to mobilize half of his army in Palestine in order to enforce this command (39-40). Petronius, anticipating a serious conflict, endeavored either to gain the assent of the Jews to the imperial command or to secure the revocation of the latter. When the news of Caligula’s intention spread through Palestine, it occasioned general mourning. A large delegation appeared before Petronius at Ptolemais, his headquarters, and their mournful petition produced a deep impression on him. Later, a similar deputation came before Petronius at Tiberias and was joined by Aristobulus, Agrippa’s eloquent brother. In the mean time, however, Agrippa had arrived at Rome, and at a banquet given by him to the emperor, he succeeded in inveigling the latter into a virtual revocation of his order. Afterward the letter of Petronius, asking the emperor for an annulment of his order, arrived; Caligula was incensed at the audacity of the governor, and regretting his former action, laid plans for introducing his statue into the Temple surreptitiously, and sent an order of immediate suicide to Petronius. This message did not reach its destination until after the receipt of the news of Caligula’s assassination at the hand of Cassius Chæreas. It is possible that the day of his death (22 Sheba?.) was instituted as a memorial day at Jerusalem.

I wouldn’t use Kaminski as a source for anything. He reminds me of Victor Thorn, otherwise known as Scott Makufka. They’re all so useless.

To put it simply, they are there deal with it. I mean both the Israelis and Palestinians. However the Israelis want the land and have a long term plan to remove the inhabitants through attrition.

The Palestinians are at their last gasp for survival I think. Within ten years there may be no Palestinians in Israel proper if things don’t change for the better.

“When you read the history of Israel from objective sources, you discover that it is an outlaw state, created by the powers that be by stealing the land from its original inhabitants, and systematically exterminating them ever since.”
******************************************

Yeah, that’s real objective. So I guess you are ALWAYS objective, by definition,  and I am ALWAYS subjective, definition.

Thinking that way is why you people get nowhere, but rant and rave a lot.

This could be a Kaminski video or it could not be. Warning some scenes are strictly for mature individuals.

Enjoy? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

http://www.middleeast.org/forum/fb-public/1/4920.shtml

Kaminski sounds rabid. I think he so distracted by Israel that he has given a blanket indictment to Jews for everything!

The highest achievement of the Jewish false flag terror formula that
has plagued the world with assassinations and bombings since time
immemorial was the demolition of the Twin Towers on 9/11, since in a
single act it destroyed the American republic.

hatred of Arabs and support the invasion of the Muslim world, which is
now well under way. In case you haven’t noticed, World War III has
started, just like Albert Pike said it would.

Yes, there is a world system in place to manipulate events as Caroll Quigly has documented but it is too much to say it is the Joooz. As to Albert Pike predicting World War III that is from a letter written to Mazzini. The letter has a dubious provenance. And there is much evidence to prove it is a fraud.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pike_mazzini.html

Yet another fabrication—often repeated by anti-masons and conspiracy theorists—is the claim that Albert Pike was in correspondence with Giusseppe Mazzini. First claimed by Edith Starr Miller, the accusation was later repeated by William Guy Carr, who cited Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chile, author of The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled. In Pawns in the Game Carr claims that this correspondence was on display in the British Museum but didn’t provide the source of his information. Later, in Satan, Prince of this World, Carr includes the following footnote:

In fact, the accusation—although not the specifics— can be traced to the earlier writings of the self-confessed hoaxsters Domenico Margiotta and Leo Taxil. There is no evidence that any correspondence ever existed. The British Museum has recently confirmed in writing to researcher Michael Haupt that such a document has never been in their possession. 1.

Sepharad and other apologists might be interested in reading what was expounded ONLY 10 years ago.

  “When you read the history of Israel from objective sources, you discover that it is an outlaw state, created by the powers that be by stealing the land from its original inhabitants, and systematically exterminating them ever since.” —John Kaminski

“We killed them(PALESTENIANS) out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our own…” —Ari Shavat. Reproduced in the New York Times, May 27th, 1999

* NAMES ARE EASELY GOOGLED.

Night Gaunt—Re Dershowitz: I’m careful when analyzing what anyone says or does, including Dershowitz (partly because he is a lawyer, a profession in which I have little faith as a general proposition).

Folktruther—Re Zionism prepared the land for the Jews, and Anti-Semitism prepared Jews for the land: there is some truth to that, though not the entire truth. What mainly concerns me is that the Jews have a history of being oppressed and so do the Palestinians. In my experience, oppressed and paranoid people are not very good at trusting enough to cooperate with anyone, let alone another set of the same sort of people.

Oil is important but not just the wealth but more importantly it is one of the choke points for geo-strategic actions and nexus of war and unrest. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and going further north to Syria and even to the other new ‘stans’ are also rich in natural gas. Russia, and China too are getting involved and viaing for the resources and geopolitical position in the regions. All must be remembered in this. Mere wealth of money isn’t enough, it is always power that is the guiding force by the most intelligent and ruthless.

Initial knee-jerk reaction
is the never-ending lust for
black gold, before that was it
tea or the gold sought by the
Spainish? Lets just call it the
evil “gold lust.”

Keep the masses controlled by
mythology and “religions” and
manage them with magic religions
and wage slavery. OMG

“Planet of the Apes” is only an
alegorical tale, like “Lord of
the Rings.”

Why can’t we just all get along?
Face it, we monkeys always get
into the same old monkey trap.

Buddhism suggests the wisdom of
“emptiness,” ridding oneself of
the cravings.

What’s it all about now? Are they
really using secret HAARP technolgy
to control the world, yet. Damn it.

Let’s see what happens.

The below paragraph was posted at Wikipedia.

Nojeh Coup

In July 1980, Zbigniew Brzezinski LINK of the United States met Jordan’s King Hussein [LINK] in Amman to discuss detailed plans for Saddam Hussein to sponsor a coup in Iran against Khomeini. King Hussein was Saddam’s closest confidant in the Arab world, and served as an intermediary during the planning. The Iraqi invasion of Iran would be launched under the pretext of a call for aid from Iranian loyalist officers plotting their own uprising on July 9, 1980 (codenamed Nojeh, after Shahrokhi/Nojeh air base in Hamedan). The Iranian officers were organized by Shapour Bakhtiar LINK, who had fled to France when Khomeini seized power, but was operating from Baghdad and Sulimaniyah at the time of Brzezinski’s meeting with Hussein. However, Khomeini LINK learned of the Nojeh Coup plan from Soviet agents in France and Latin America. Shortly after Brzezinski’s meeting with Hussein, the President of Iran, Abolhassan Bani-Sadr LINK quietly rounded up 600 of the loyalist plotters within Iran, putting an effective end to the Nojeh Coup.[5] Saddam decided to invade without the Iranian officers’ assistance, beginning the Iran-Iraq war on 22 September 1980.

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/theinvestigation/theinvestigation.htm#reedemail

THURSDAY         616 PM/CST   DFW/USA

REF: Paracelsus

You are very helpful. I straigtway did the right thing. Daisy is gone and I am forgiven. Life is good.

Now, let me tell you all bout Nancy, a tart and lively little beauty with one black ear. Not baaaaaad!

But she is older now and the love is gone. I know that I must make a change.

I see your dilemma. I have some problems of my own. My girlfriend had a visit from Aunt Flo while sleeping in the bed, and I accidentally “sneezed” into a sock. I think I can save the sock if I soak it in carbolic acid, but the bed is total loss as I will have to set it on fire. This is all to keep in halachic form. I’ll ask the reb to do a prayer for you.

The 42nd anniversary of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty is just a few weeks away ...

Dead in the Water

“During the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty belonging to its closest ally, the USA. Thirty-four American servicemen were killed in the two-hour assault by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats.”

BBC Four Investigative Report: Broadcast Saturday 17 May 2003

Video Runtime 69 Minutes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link to watch this excellent video of one of several “Unsolved Crimes” committed by Israel:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5073.htm

thurs     211 pm/cs   dfw/usa

ref: Paracelsus

I am concerned about the ewe that I call “Daisy.” I read your protocol for marketing a compromised sheep. Your words have me searching my soul the proper way to sell Daisy. She is a dear thing, she has been like a sister to me, or more like a wife. She dresses up in little red high heels and I bought her many pretty things. But she is older now and the love is gone. I know that I must make a change.

My earliest recollection of the Soncino Talmud was in college. I remember reading a section on semen stains. There were various remedies and dispensations on semen stains. Is such and such clean if it lay underneath a piece of fabric with a semen stain on it? Should I burn such an article if is stained or is there a remedy for cleaning it? There were articles on how many times one should touch one’s penis while relieving himself of urine. Then there were the various taboos connected with menstrual blood. I was amazed. Then there was a section on sacrificial animals. One question I remember with much amusement is what to do with an ewe that had been interfered with, you know, having been acquainted with sexual union with a man. Should a inseminated sheep be given to a Cohen or a Levi for payment of synagogue dues? No, one should never give such a sheep to a priest for it is a desecration and abomination. Is such a sheep worthy of eating? Then there would be argument and commentary between the learneds. The exceptions and special circumstances for an abused sheep were given. Should such a sheep be sold to a fellow Jew? Perhaps if the sheep is blessed and cleaned, and the Jew is given informed consent. Can one sell such a sheep to a gentile without giving information of the abomination committed on said sheep? Perhaps so. Then there is a counter argument.
Methods of cleaning the sheep are discussed. And prayers are suggested. Perhaps said gentile should get a discount for damaged goods. I can’t say my recollections are dead on accurate. I just hope I have given you the flavor of the Talmud. Anyway I’ve had a good laugh. It’s seems so serious around here sometimes.

THURSDAY               1233 PM/CST DFW/USA

REF: Night-Gaunt

Zionists? Polish resistence? Haganah? Hank Greenberg? Myron Cohen? Intel? A mystery?

To ask the question is to answer it.

The better you write the more easily understood you will be. By-the-way you didn’t address my question. Please do so I can understand your position on this matter? Discussion is two way and so far it is only one. Rather like how Israel and the USA deals with the Palestinians. One way, their way.

WEDNESDAY       1041 PM/CST   DFW/USA

Some posting on here want to judge “good writing.” They even assume that everyone considers Bush and Cheney are more closely associated with militant Zionists more than the current occupants of the White House.

The subject under discussion is certainly not about “good writing” and I have studied Zionism, have been closely associated with ever so many. Let us not assume too much.

FoggyJones why would any “Zionist” want to prosecute their friends Bush & Cheney now? I don’t see the relevance you are implying without explicating. Please give more details? Just throwing Zionist out there willy-nilly isn’t good writing if it doesn’t have a point to it.

Cheney wanted to attack Iran for Israel but the generals were able to stop it for now. But it could still happen. Does that bother you? It does me. It goes back to the way the Zionists in charge of Israel want their long range plan to regain all of the territories they read in their sacred writings of ancient Israel. That is where all of these dangerous and ultimately self defeating projects of the Jewish state come from.

Notes on the Soncino Talmud

I navigated to the website of the publishers ofthe Soncino Talmud, the Soncino Press. Here is a paragraph about their history:

http://www.soncino.com/about.php

   
About Us  

Today, Soncino Press endeavors to carry on the tradition of those pioneers by continuing to reissue the great Hebrew classics with faithfully rendered English translations.

They claim to be faithful to the word and meaning of the works of the Hebrews.

I have read Patrick Henry’s link referring to these fanatic Rabbis who seem to be rather ruthless in regard to the Palestinian Arabs.

Gush Emunim believe that “Jews are not and cannot be normal people” due the covenant made with God in Mount Sinai.  Rabbi Shlomo Aviner one of their leader believe “while God requires other normal nations to abide by abstract codes of “justice and righteousness” such laws do not apply to Jews”. Rabbi Israel Ariel was quoted as saying “a Jew who kills a non-Jew is exempt from human judgment, and has not violated the prohibition of murder” Such religious philosophy prevails among the leaders of the Gush Emunim the likes of Rabbi Aviner, Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook, Rabbi Ariel all of whom are of the views that” Arabs living in Palestine are thieves because the land was once Jewish all the property to be found on that land “really” belongs to the Jews”. As such the Arab-Israeli conflict must not be seen as political conflict but a theological conflict that justifies the crimes in Gaza.

The first three references would seem to cover the rabbinical quotes:

- “The Ideology Behind Hebron Massacre” by Professor Israel Shahak.-

- “Promoting Racism in Israel” by Eric H. Yoffe.

- “On the eve of destruction” by Ari Shavit

I have found Shahak to be sloppy in his citations.

http://www.wernercohn.com/Shahak.html

But should one throw the baby out with the bath water? In court proceedings one lie from a witness is enough to throw out the whole testimony. But then again this is a history book, and history is not always based on truth but an agreed upon mythology. How does Shahak stand where he does cite his sources?

As to the rest of the article at Jefferson’s corner, there are many cites from Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper.

Thank you Robert for the Finkelstein speech. Someone that Dershowitiz stopped from getting tenure at another college! Another black mark against him. But then if a person supports torture anything else they do that is bad or evil shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

The Zionist in the U.S. Congress are preparing the battlefield to prosecute Bush and, especially, Dick Cheney.

The fight is on, no turning back. Instead of banksters and their puppet politicians, they have adopted the diversion strategy in this chess game between the two wings of the ruling elite.

We are caught in the middle, laid off, 401Ks mugged, nationwide police crackdown, and other smokescreens.

It is the system, stupid. Meanwhile, Mr. Bojangles just keeps dancing.

Robert,

The video of Finkelstein talking about Israel/Gaza was fascinating. I recommend it to others…

Thanks

An older post which is relevant today and ties in the Talmud aspect which has somehow become the topic.

http://www.jeffersoncorner.com/we-will-not-forgive-the-jews-for-their-silence-for-turning-israel-into-a-racist-criminal-state/

Finkelstein on the Gaza Massacre (video)

Norman Finkelstein on Gaza “War”

05.04.2009 | Youtube/“hoopmov”

Note: Please click on the video’s right and left buttons to check Norman’s lecture from Part 1 to Part 9.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/finkelstein-on-the-gaza-massacre-video/

CLAIM (12)
This study is based on the Jewish-authorized, English translation of the Babylonian Talmud: the Soncino edition. Every selection we cite is documented directly from the text of the authoritative Soncino Talmud. We have published herein the authenticated sayings of the Jewish Talmud. Look them up for yourself. To verify the Talmud passages cited, refer to the Soncino edition Talmud, which may be found in large university and seminary libraries. The Soncino Talmud may also be purchased from book dealers.

RESPONSE
Of course, as will be revealed in the following analysis of the posted material, it is full of gross mistranslations, fabrications and out of context “quotes”. And of course, no translation will ever capture the real flavour of what is being said. For proper study of the Talmud, an excellent knowledge of Aramaic and Hebrew is required.
David S. Maddison (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))

What should be recommended as the proper Talmud if the Soncino translation has problems? The Soncino has been quoted by most every hostile group on the internet. I don’t recommend just ignoring the Soncino, for the problem will not just go away.. There should be a trustworthy translation if the Soncino has its problems. Unfortunately most people will not go to the trouble of learning Hebrew or Aramaic, and that will just provide the ammo for a lot of persecution.

FolkTruther & Sheparad, anyone who promotes torture is a quack and seriously demented in my book. Alan Dershowitz does just that. I would be very careful in examining everything he says.

Poor Diogenes so confused in the human condition wanting to return to the animal from whence we came. But to do so he needed to cut away that neo-cortex that gives us that spark of intelligence that allows us to be self aware and can move against our natural motivations. But self sufficiency isn’t one of them. Only out right misanthropes, bullies and types like myself with a personality disorder or Asperger’s Syndrome that precludes me from much in the way of friends et al. I don’t wish to be an emerite but I do the wrong things that cause people to shun me or at least keep their distance. [The non-verbal responses are wrong and it makes most others uncomfortable.] Knowing that I tend to stay by myself to ease the anxiety.

“This comes at a moment when Israel’s Jewish population actually is falling through emigration. Israel already is internationally recognized within its legal borders. Everyone knows that it is a Jewish state.”—William Pfaff

Curious considering that Israel doesn’t recognize its present boarders as of yet. I wonder if they are going to try to entice even more Jews to immigrate to them soon after Gaza is cleared? We all know what would happen if say the USA declared itself a Christian state? Where only Christians had rights while everyone else were put into “Homelands” and kept separate and unequal wouldn’t we? It should go for Israel and any other nation-state as well.

foggyjones, May 12 at 9:08 pm #

ref: ARDEE

your recent post with detail is a good thing. i shall study it more later, meanwhile, let me ask you this: what do you find your torah says about crooked lawyers, judges and any nation’s legal system of justice?

please, something specific and in plain English, as I failed to learn my Hebrew. sad story. so, plain English. Thank you in advance.
...............................................

What you seek can be found at the link provided, it is in English.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/exp.html

REF: Folktruther

I must firmly re-affirm the likelihood put forth by Perecelsus: I had heard the old saying that Zionism prepared the land for the Jews, but Anti-semitism prepared the Jews for the land.

It would seem there is a very great divide, maybe a war with proportions I had never imagined. Millions are waking to the realization that they have been dosing and find themselves surrounded by bloodthirsty wolves. We shall see.

Well, time for an Ambien, the aggrevation between my ears is not yielding, so far.

To sleep- perchance to dream. Ay, there’s the rub!

Please take care, and good night.

REF: Paracelsus (“running from the grand ennui)

Whether or not Shakespeare was the general contractor or like the art director, his aggregation of writing is still the greatest. Everything thing else sounds like a pale imitation. That is remarkable. Some say it was only a glorified knock-off from the Greeks. I have never investigated that, I do wonder. It just seems that the many concepts of modern psychology to economics and warfare, you name it, is somewhere in the collected works.

Well, time for an Ambien, the aggrevation between my ears is not yielding, so far.

Thanks and I sort of apologize for not proofreading my blurts but am a bit lacking in motivation these days. Maybe tomorrow, I will improve.

@ Folktruther

Way to go, Paracelsus.  Your link THE NON-ZIONIST ORGINS OF ZIONISM is an astonishing argument, which I don’t have time to evaluate now.  However it would lend credence to Sepharad’s poisition that the American ruling class is using Zionism, rather than Zionism waging the American ruling class dog.

I had heard the old saying that Zionism prepared the land for the Jews, but Anti-semitism prepared the Jews for the land. Cheers.

REF: Paracelsus

When I was a boy, I was particulary impressed with “Robin Crusoe.” Your comments triggered memories of that great novel that always stayed with me. I am reminded of the the scene desribed when Robinson Caruso wandered up on the signs of mankind, an intelligent being, on his island.

It accentuates my dilemma. By the way, a brush fire and sudden winds, it was an act of God, that burned my cottage and barn, the animals were sold or given away, and have been drifting from one unacceptable place to another, ever since. Like the Britcom, “Waiting for God,” but very doubtful.

Contact, there is intelligent life out there, somewhere. Now, I am thinking about the daring notion of getting a dog. It is a possibility, maybe.

@ foggyjones

Let me share this much, after my brilliant career was cut short, I bought a small, remote farm and had a series of dogs, several cats and bought the white Arabian horse that I dream of as boy. But was largely isolated from people, the “lying bastards” had finally alienated me or vice versa.

Hmmm, “lying bastards”...that reminds me of the end of Scene 6, Act 3, Timon of Athens:

Live loath’d and long,
Most smiling, smooth, detested parasites,
Courteous destroyers, affable wolves, meek bears,
You fools of fortune, trencher-friends, time’s flies,
Cap-and-knee slaves, vapors, and minute jacks!

I have had my encounters with “toad spotted treachers”. It is as if a part of your soul was stolen. I think you needed to take some time out. I can understand that.

@ Sepharad

Thank you. I owe my peregrinations more to a lack of stable employment, than any innate genius. I suppose the daemon of ennui spurs me. But I thank you the same.

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

‘it is righteous for a Jew to kill a non-Jew with his own hands, because whoever kills a non-Jew is offering a sacrifice to God…’

I had read the Soncino edition of the Talmud at a theological library. I had read verses and opinions that were disturbing to my sense of fairness. I can’t say I read anything like that for fear of being labeled as somehow racist. All I can suggest is that for people on this forum to take any controversial lines from the internet and make note of the chapter and verse. Then take such a reference to a first rate library to verify the claim. And if a qualified Jewish expert on this forum could verify and explain such things, it would help immensely. What I do know about Martin Luther is that he had read a great deal of Talmud, and the experience did not elevate his view of Jews. I do know that many middle eastern religions throw out and ignore the stierscheissen portions of the Torah, Bible or Koran. Perhaps there are portions of the Talmud that are equally worthy of apostasy.

REF: Paracelsus

You raised an excellent point that I failed to realize all this time. Not even a dog could live the life of Diogenes. Gulp! Yet, when he roamed around Athens, it seems he socialize with dogs rather than the Athenians. The dogs liked him. But he owned no claimed no dog of his own.

Let me share this much, after my brilliant career was cut short, I bought a small, remote farm and had a series of dogs, several cats and bought the white Arabian horse that I dream of as boy. But was largely isolated from people, the “lying bastards” had finally alienated me or vice versa. Even my son once quipped that I was the cynical person he had ever known. That is an unpleasant thought, taken in the context. He is no scholar.

Like some other grumpy old men, I was not in pursuit of studies of the classics, only knew of cynacism in passing, and cannot recall when the idea hit me to do a search on old Diogenes. But when I did, it hit me between the eyes. Who in the hell would want to be like Diogenes? Perhaps, however, it is inevitable for some. If I were able to drink expensive scotch without reprecussions, maybe I would easily be able to see that the glass is half full.

Paracelsus, Brilliant. As usual.

He eventually settled in Corinth where he continued to pursue the Cynic ideal of self-sufficiency: a life which was natural and not dependent upon the luxuries of civilization. Believing that virtue was better revealed in action and not theory, his life was a relentless campaign to debunk the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt society.

I reminded of Shakespeare’s Timon of Athens.

Alcibiades: What are thou there? Speak!

Timon: I am Misanthropos, and hate mankind.
For thy part, I do wish thou wert a dog,
That I might love thee something.

I have my tergiversations over the value of cynicism. To live a completely natural life of an animal sets me to wonder and speculate. As a human animal it is only natural for me to use tools and to please a woman with what pleasures I can obtain for her(I suppose I am thinking in the paradigm of a hunter-gather village society). Not even a dog could live like Diogenes as they like to gather in packs. Even Socrates as able as he was to debunk the civil gods would rather drink hemlock than be ostracized. As for virtue, an over subscription to one virtue can be worse than the practice of a thousand small vices.

Folktruther, where did you get the notion that my position is that Americans are using Zionism rather than the reverse? I don’t think either side pulls the strings of the other, but American policies (driven as they are by oil) are sometimes bad for Israel, and Israeli policies are sometimes bad for America. For example, I agree with Prof. Dershowitz that linking Iran and the Israeli-Arab peace process—a linkage suggested by Rahm Emanuel—is a bad idea that won’t further anyone’s goals. (I realize you consider Prof. Dershowitz a Zionist shill, but his lifelong career as a pro-bono defense attorney—and sometimes as an attorney for the rich and powerful, whose fat payments are used to staff and finance his extensive pro-bono work—speaks to the nature of the man, and his Felix Frankfurter professorship to his intellectual abilities.)

Paraceles or Ardee:

Ref: Hermeneutics is nice.

I am foggy jones or diogenes: I am sure you know but I insist on spelling it out: Diogenes of Sinope was exiled from his native city and moved to Athens, where he is said to have become a disciple of Antisthenes, the former pupil of Socrates.

Diogenes, a beggar who made his home in the streets of Athens, made a virtue of extreme poverty. He is said to have lived in a large tub, rather than a house, and to have walked through the streets carrying a lamp in the daytime, claiming to be looking for an honest man. He eventually settled in Corinth where he continued to pursue the Cynic ideal of self-sufficiency: a life which was natural and not dependent upon the luxuries of civilization. Believing that virtue was better revealed in action and not theory, his life was a relentless campaign to debunk the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt society.

It may be noted that there are other situations where Jews are forbidden to do something by one verse and Gentiles are forbidden the same action by a different verse.
Michael Gruda

There are many passages in the Talmud that begin with a statement, and then the statement is mulled over in further arguments and reasonings. The problem is that most people just grab onto the original statement and just run with it. Should we be given to understand that the original statement is in the form of a proposition or polemic, and that the point is argued and expanded upon?

There was a passage in the Talmud about miscegenation with an Egyptian woman being similar to mating with a she-ass, and that the issue was born into filth. The best I could come up with is that the peoples of that time were very tribal, and the universality of reciprocity was not common in that time. It was not until the Greeks that the idea of a cosmopolitan morality was promoted- the universalism of ethics. You seem very knowledgeable and I thank you for your hermeneutics.

ref: ARDEE

your recent post with detail is a good thing. i shall study it more later, meanwhile, let me ask you this: what do you find your torah says about crooked lawyers, judges and any nation’s legal system of justice?

please, something specific and in plain English, as I failed to learn my Hebrew. sad story. so, plain English. Thank you in advance.

Part the duex:

CLAIM (21)
O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.

RESPONSE (1)
A Jew must certainly pay a Cuthean the wages owed him for work. But because not paying is not the same as stealing, it is not actionable in a Jewish court. That is what is written in Sanhedrin 57a. Worlds apart from sanctioning robbery (and besides, one would expect the non-Jew to be able to make a claim in a non-Jewish court.)
Avraham Hampel

RESPONSE (2)
When I searched for the word “withholding” in the Talmud, I found that the only other mention of withholding wages was in Baba Metzia 111b. In Baba Metzia 111b, it specifically applies to Amalekites—- a nation we are supposedly perpetually at war with. (In the real world, we haven’t been able to identify any Amalekites in centuries.)
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)(Joseph Hertzlinger) <65lb0o$26h@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>

RESPONSE (3)
It is certainly not “OK to cheat non-Jews”. In the Tosefta Baba Kama (10:8) we are taught: “It is more grievous to steal from a non-Jew than from a Jew because of the desecration of G-d’s name”.

In Sanhedrin 57a the Talmud discusses the Noahide laws which are binding on all non-Jews. It specifically examines the source of the prohibition against holding back wages. Such practice is forbidden to everyone - both Jew and non-Jew - but the biblical source of this prohibition is different for Jews and non-Jews.

Jews are prohibited from holding back wages by specific verses in the bible (Lev. 19:13; Deut. 24:14) which impose this prohibition only on Jews. These verses specifically prohibit Jews from holding back wages from anyone, whether Jew or non-Jew (Rambam, positive commandment #200).

For non-Jews the biblical source for this prohibition is the verse generally prohibiting non-Jews from stealing.

In this passage the Talmud examines the prohibition of withholding wages with reference only to the scriptural passage prohibiting non-Jews from such behavior. The proper translation of the passage is this:

“holding back wages - a Cuthean [who does this] to a Cuthean - prohibited [by the verse prohibiting non-Jews from stealing]; a Jew to a Cuthean - permitted [by this verse, but prohibited by other verses which specifically prohibit a Jew from holding back wages].

It may be noted that there are other situations where Jews are forbidden to do something by one verse and Gentiles are forbidden the same action by a different verse.
Michael Gruda (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/exp.html

Oh, hidflect, May 12 at 11:33 am #

Never thought Id be arguing the Talmudic interpretations, but you are wrong…So are Israeli policies towards Palestinians….

The Torah, by the by, is the highest law and the Talmud is an interpretation and explanation thereof..Sanhedrin is a council that interprets law…

CLAIM (20)
Jews are Divine Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

RESPONSE (1)
Nowhere does it say that Jews are divine. In the opinion of one individual Rabbi, Rabbi Hanina, not the Talmud, a non-Jew who hits a Jew is worthy of death by the Hand of G-d - there is no room whatsoever for a Jew to kill him. That is what is written in Sanhedrin 58b. A Jew who hits a Jew, by comparison, is called wicked and excluded from Jewish communal life until he apologises (eg. can’t be counted in a Minyan [Mininum size group of 10 men required for communal prayer.]) which is likewise a form of spiritual death. Therefore there is no discrimination.
[Edited RESPONSE.] Avraham Hampel

RESPONSE (2)
Misquote. The text doesn’t say that he must be killed but that he’s worthy of death—an idiomatic phrase referring to death by the hand of god (struck by lightning etc.). That’s because by hitting a man (made in the image of God) you are marring the image of God. The same is also said of Jews who simply raise their hand against others, by the way.
Usenet message

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (Reimer Behrends)

RESPONSE (3)
The correct translation is: “R. Chanina says ‘an idol worshipper who strikes a Jew is liable for death, as it says .... [a proof text from Exodus 2:12] and if one strikes the jaws of a Jew it is as if he has struck the jaws of the Shechina as it says in Proverbs ... [a proof text from Proverbs 20:25 which is based on a play of words]’”.

Commentators explain that the phrase ‘liable for death’ is not a punishment that is carried out by a human court. It may also be noted that in Jewish thought the term ‘death’ when referring to a ‘death penalty’ carried out by Heaven may include sickness or poverty, not necessarily untimely death, and in any event punishment may be mitigated by factors such as repentance. See [CLAIM 16] above where this matter is discussed with reference to another passage.

As far as hitting a Jew: Jews bear G-d’s name in this world. One who strikes a Jew because of hatred toward the Jewish people is striking at those who brought G-d’s word to all mankind. The term “Shechina” refers to the human perception of G-d’s presence in this world, and that perception is one that is intimately related to the existence and well-being of the Jewish people.
Michael Gruda (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))

hidflect, May 12 at 11:33 am #

‘it is righteous for a Jew to kill a non-Jew with his own hands, because whoever kills a non-Jew is offering a sacrifice to God…’
***************************************

From the “Talmud”, eh? Is this the same “Talmud” that demands that the Passover Matzoh be made with the blood of a murdered Gentile child?

(despite the fact that this violates so many Kashrut laws it’s incredible, it’s been around as the “Blood Libel” for centuries)

From Day One Israel’s policy has been to take the entirety of Palestine for themselves. All bargaining over “2 state solutions” etc. has just been mendacious dissembling as they grab the land inch by inch. Don’t believe me? Go ask the Settlers themselves. They’ll confirm it. And if they have to kill every Palestinian to do it, then fine. Because, as the Talmud says;

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

or

‘it is righteous for a Jew to kill a non-Jew with his own hands, because whoever kills a non-Jew is offering a sacrifice to God…’

It seems more and more obvious that the MIC and a few investment bankers direct their political puppets. The role of the White House is to make public announcements on progess. So, you got your banker, your aircraft and ammo plants etc., and you got your politicians in the congress and white house in the amen corner.

Indeed, that single line by Obama, “our staunch allie, Israel” is completely out of step with the vast majority of Americans.

Ref: Jaded Prole

  No, no, no, a precious few in several nations pull the strings in both the U.S., Israel and UK. They are hiding in plain sight. They create financial bubbles, they fund the international military complex, they create problems and get paid to solve them. Like the Charley Chaplin movie where he is portraying a crooked, jackleg window repairman, who sends his boy out with a rock to create some work for the window repair man.

The Two-State Delusion

By Alan Sabrosky

“May 11, 2009 “Khaleej Times”—The world is once again being treated to yet another round in the Israeli-Palestinian “peace process” charade.

The “usual suspects” are posturing, pronouncements are being made, speeches are being given, and hints and rumours about a supposed “toughening” in the US government’s approach to Israel are filtering out from the press. We are supposed to think that something different is about to happen, and that, as the old American folk song had it, “The times, they are a-changing.” It is all nonsense. The whole exercise strikes me as what the old Soviet Army used to call a maskirovka, sort of a complex strategic masquerade on steroids, with rehearsed actors playing their scripted roles before a fully aware and involved audience, and that includes the head of the American NSC and his “leaked” memos. There may be some blunter words said to Netanyahu than he (or other Israeli prime ministers) has heard in a while, but it isn’t unprecedented.

Former President Reagan was very pro-Israeli, but he got so incensed at Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon that he reportedly yelled at then-Israeli Prime Minister Begin and deployed Marines with naval support to block them around Beirut. And regardless of how the intervention ended, there were occasions when US Marines and Israeli troops came right up to the edge of a full-scale fire-fight, and I was assured at the time by several Marine officers who were there that they were fully prepared to slug it out with the IDF if that was required, and the 6th Fleet had standing orders to go to the mat in their support if that happened - a far cry from 1967, when it had stood back in the face of the deliberate Israeli air and naval attack on the USS Liberty that killed or wounded more than 200 American sailors and Marines.

Today that would never happen, of course, or the US Navy & Marine Corps would have punched a hole through the Israeli blockade on Gaza and ended their assault on it a few months ago. They didn’t, and President Obama wouldn’t have sent them in, either — most of the rest of the world has been outraged by the brutal Israeli action that killed over 1400 Palestinians and wounded thousands more, the majority of them women and children, but all Obama does is talk about America’s undying commitment to the security of “our staunch ally Israel,” while the US Congress declaims its support of “poor, brave little Israel” (sic) and continues to vote billions of dollars in assistance to it. What is going to happen is that stories will leak about “full & frank” discussions between Obama & Netanyahu, and then after hemming and hawing for a while, Netanyahu will grudgingly agree to negotiations leading towards a two-state solution, he will be praised as a “man of peace” (just like Ariel Sharon, right?), and that pot will just keep boiling and boiling until both Obama and Netanyahu go away.

Besides, the two-state solution is a dead-in-the-water derelict, and given the Israeli attitude, probably always was. For it to be viable, three things would absolutely have to happen. First, all Israeli settlements would have to be withdrawn from the West Bank and Palestinian refugees allowed to return without Israeli interference. That isn’t going to happen. Second, a viable Palestinian state would have to be sufficiently well armed to make the Israelis think 10 times before doing a Gaza strike in either part. And last, a viable Palestinian state would need armed guarantees from other nations.”

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22593.htm

Folktruther, my support of a second state solution is not just lipservice: I see no other possible solution for the Jews and Palestinians in the “twice-promised land” to each have what they each really want, a country based on their historical presence and cultural development in which they each have a majority and hence influence over their own lives and security. More education (I don’t consider either madrassas or yeshivas true education) and economic autonomy are the greatest requirements for a successful Palestinian state, the only way they can provide their own security—army, police— defend themselves from domination by extremist Shariah law within and neighbors without.

I disagree with both Ed Harges and Night-Gaunt. Except for the absurd belief that that land “was promised to the Jews by God”, this is neither a religious, nor conservative nor liberal issue. This is about democracy. This is about creating a land for only one people (Jews) and therefore either exterminating non-Jews, or evicting/deporting them, or simply relegating them to an unjust socially inferior status, whereby they have little recourse to justice (historically, similar to minority blacks in South Africa, the US, or Australia). There are still some countries that don’t give their minorities’ equal rights and status, but most of them are developing countries. Israel cannot truly consider itself a democracy as long as it plays that futile and obsolete colonial role.

By Ed Harges, May 11 at 3:41 pm #

Spot on Ed.

ITS WORTH REPEATING….... THATS on man’s opinion.

A little bit of historical recalling might be the best and most logical way to THE ONLY 3 VENUES AVAILABLE TO ISRAEL’S FUTURE.

Venue 1. Comply with “in toto” the UN Resolutions that created it (Israel) and a Palestenian state.

Venue 2. Not comply “in toto” with UN Resolutions of 1948 and suffer the consequences of continued hostile acts from its neighbors most of whom are becoming as proficient as the Israelis in military conflicts with the increasing potential of defeat of the IDF.

Venue 3. Incorporate the populations of Gaza and the West Bank within its territory thereby creating a state with some 5.3 million Jews and over 6 million non-jews with the predictable result of within ten years of having a jewish minorty population ratio of 43/45% to a non jewish population of 55/57%.

An Asian based website has reported that the CIA is at present studying the feasability and practicality of moving some 2 million Israelis into Canada, Australia and possibly the US if an all out war in the ME takes place.

And so it goes.

MONDAY   350 PM/CST DFW/USA

REF: ED

You have provided a worth of truth in this matter. There has been so much FIERCE DENIAL!

Night-Gaunt writes:

“Actually it is the conservatives that take Israel’s side on all things, it is the liberals that look at humanity first not religion or ethnicity. “

Night -Gaunt: my point is this: many American Jews who consider themselves liberals, and who indeed are, overall, liberal in their views on most political matters, are nevertheless fiercely protective of Israel to the extent of defending policies and actions that are in fact the opposite of liberal. You don’t have to explain to me that this is inconsistent with true liberalism. Explain it to them. Explain it to the Chuck Schumer wing of the Democratic party.

Way to go, Paracelsus.  Your link THE NON-ZIONIST ORGINS OF ZIONISM is an astonishing argument, which I don’t have time to evaluate now.  However it would lend credence to Sepharad’s poisition that the American ruling class is using Zionism, rather than Zionism waging the American ruling class dog.  the history of Zionism appears to be more complicated than we currently understand.  Traditional Zionist censorship is dedicated to preventing us from understanding it.

Virgina, the link you gave to one article is to HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH not Amnesty, which is indeed influened by Zionism.  I belong to Amnesty, although irritated at their lack of vigor, and they do critize Israeli brutality.  And- gulp- I have to agree with Inherit about his critique of another link, (although he is a boob.)

Virgina, this lack of accuracy is not so good.

The question is will the Obama administration change the course of USA negotiations with Israel and Palestine or maintain that Israel’s wants, in concert or parallel with the USA, will be the hidden reasons behind what happens. The US has talked consistently about a “two state solution” but worked consistently on siding with Israel in most things by action. [Ethnic cleansing and expanding of territory.]

I am curious to see how Obama does in this area. I don’t expect any changes of any significance. But he could surprise me if he actually does.

InheritTheWind why not just have your say and don’t waste yours and our time complaining about someone else with no dialog or information in it? Doesn’t FolkTruther have some merit to the ideal that Israel could be protected with a two state solution? Instead of the present belligerancies by them over everyone else in the area?

“It would actually be un-American to take the US’s side in all matters in the unreasonable way that many American Jews - including many so-called liberals - take Israel’s side in all things.”—Ed Harges

Actually it is the conservatives that take Israel’s side on all things, it is the liberals that look at humanity first not religion or ethnicity. At least get it straight as to what is reality. Stop believing in Fark’s News.

“There are only two possible alternatives to the world in regard to Israel: One, is that Israel as a political-military entity must cease to exist; two that the whole world must succumb to the Israeli yoke and declare defeat to all common sense laws of of truth, justice and decency!”—Fadel Abdullah

You don’t do yourself any favors with this either or scenario when there are many other choices where Israel continues to exist. Why can’t there be an Israel where the Palestinians are treated as equals? Too hard for you to handle Fadel? Would you feel the same about Iran or Syrian or Jordan? The fact is you don’t like the concept of Israel and feel it is just a bad thing. A dangerous mind-set that poisons you thoughts and trashes your chance at objectivity such as it is. The leaders of Israel think the same way only it is the Arabs & Islamics they consider inherently bad.

“The reason that the reactivating of the Military Commissions act is important, along with Obama’s Zionist policies favoring ethnic cleansing, is that Zionism is working to instill a police state in the US of the same kind they have in Israel against the Palestinians.”—FolkTruther

I think you are confusing the ‘tail’ with the ‘dog’ on Zionism. Dominionists here may be Zionists but they are for themselves here first over Israel just as Israel is over the USA for their own selves. True, that the mind sets in many of the rulers of Israel are seen here but those here aren’t Jews or Jewish. Israel is to them both the point of their spear and an ally in need of conversion.

If Obama really wants “peace in the Middle East” then he needs to support diplomacy and that Palestine has just a much ‘right to exist’ as Israel or any other nation-state. Otherwise the Israelites will continue their militarist reign to dominate larger portions of the region with USA backing.

more on Amnesty International

Hijacking Human Rights
Michael Barker
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14804

Amnesty International, Iran and Propaganda
Stefania Harris
http://stephiblog.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/amnesty-international-iran-and-propaganda/

Virginia777, May 10 at 7:36 pm #

Of course their weren’t!! Amnesty International is a puppet of AIPAC (check out their initiatives, none that disturb Israel, tons of money going to “Save” Darfur)
***********************************************

Interesting. An article CLAIMING AI made a mistake about some Cuban prisoners, identifying them as “prisoners of conscience” when they may have been actually paid agents of the US makes NO mention of AIPAC.

Somehow, this poster infers and concludes, bizarrely, that Amnesty International MUST be a stooge of AIPAC.

However, having read the article, Salim Lamrani is highly complementary of A-I, and never mentions Israel OR AIPAC as far as I could see.  I guess fantasy “facts” from “The Contingent” are again the order of the day.

And, FYI, Salim Lamrani is an expert on CUBAN-US relations—not Israeli-US relations.

Where do you guys get this crap (not Lamrani, but the crackpot inference)?

WORLDWIDE BOYCOTT UNDERWAY AND IT WORKS!

TO HELL WITH INTEL!

tp://home.pacbell.net/halnet/Boyco…20Campaign.htm

Paracelsus, thanks for the link; exceptionally thorough, informative; lots to think about. I need to reread it a couple more times.

foggy: poison oak “sly indirection”? Don’t read much, do you.

Virginia777: now Amnesty International is an AIPAC stooge? Thanks for clarifying your overall perspective.

“Paris is our Jerusalem”

But while Jews welcomed Napoleon’s emancipation, they rejected Napoleon’s Zionism, as only one Jewish group in Prague welcomed the Proclamation, while French Jews reminded Napoleon, “Paris is our Jerusalem.” Worse, the Great Sanhadrin declared, in the Preamble to the Décisions doctrinaires du Grand Sanhadrin, that Jews did not form a corporate nation any more.

Stirpes has some interesting stuff, and some loony ideas as well. I liked their section the history of Zionism. It turns out that Zionism was purely the invention of European powers who wanted control over the Middle East as a choke point to trade with the East. Napolean was a noteable Zionist. In fact he was a man for all seasons.

http://forum.stirpes.net/judaism/12369-reformation-british-origins-zionism.html

Anyhow it seems that Zionisn has its origins as far back as the Reformation. It’s a long article. I think I’ll study it some more.

Check out this excellent article on Amnesty International by Salim Lamrani

The Contradictions of Amnesty International
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/17818

“There were no seminars at the conference by human rights groups like Amnesty International that are calling for an immediate and comprehensive suspension of arms to Israel”

Of course their weren’t!! Amnesty International is a puppet of AIPAC (check out their initiatives, none that disturb Israel, tons of money going to “Save” Darfur)

It looks like the “puppet state” that JADED PROLE started off with is the ONE THAT IS HOLDING THE STRINGS.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts05072009.html

Obama, according to an article in truthout, is going to reactivate the Bushite Military Commissions at Gitmo, using hearsay evidence that the defendents won’t be able to refute.  It is part of his continuing the political counter revolution of Bush whuch has strippted the American people and the people of the world of the traditional American Constitutional protections,  under the guise of Security.  the security is for the Amerian power structure, not that of the American people, whom the American powerful are making more insecure and powerless.

The blatant disregard of Obama’s campaign promises and his standard policy of promoting Bushite policies under a nice smile and different rhetoric will no doubt permeate his Israeli policy as well.  He is promoting the Bushite Roadmap to Peace while Israel continues its ethnic cleansing and American Zionists, like Inherit and Sepharad, provide damage control by pretending to favor a two state solution.

The reason that the reactivating of the Military Commissions act is important, along with Obama’s Zionist policies favoring ethnic cleansing, is that Zionism is working to instill a police state in the US of the same kind they have in Israel against the Palestinians.  The War on Terrorism applies to the American Homeland as well other countries, and the idea is to gut Constitutional legal protects for Americans as well as everyone else. 

The basic reason for the Military Commissions is for ideological purposes, to get the American people accostomed to being convicted for protesting the US power structure.

There is no other power reason for these rigged trials.  The US could simply releaase these prisoners and it wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference in the world, except that they would serve as witnesses of American barbarity, the major reason for continuing to imprison them.

Obama has already supported the intelligence agencies spying on Americans, and Zionists have tried to pass the thought control bill and now the Hate Crimes bill.  Zionist fund and support Horriwitz in his McCarthy campaign against university professors, any academic critiicism of Israel being anti-semitic. 

This Military Commissions court is continuing the Bush-Obama process of turning the US into a postmodern police state, different from traditional fascism only because it is a bank- controlled neoliberal police state.  And the American population is still being neutralized, clueless and deluded and fragmented by the Obama cheerleaders, especially the Zionists, who are attempting to get American Progressive to identify with their own oppression and the oppression of other people.

To mobilize the American people we must unlearn the power bullshit (powerbull) that we have been taught from childhood, when we are most impressionable, credulous and powerless to resist authority.  And the best way to unlearn this powerbull is to learn simple reality-based truths that are imcompatible with it.  It is only by emotionalizing and spirutalizing these reality-based truths that it is possible to resist the obfuscation of the Zionists and the Obama cheerleaders.

Folktruther, May 10 at 2:50 am #

Inherit, Sepharad-  ther reason everyone attacks you is that you give lipservice to a two state solution while supporting in practice Israeli ethnic cleansing and military imperialism.  Obama could create a two state solution by merely ordering Israel to witdraw its troops from Palestine, and the US giving back the Palestinaian the money stolen from them by Israel.
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Your constant making up of shit about both me and Sepharad is tiresome.  Just because you need to paint us as “devils” opposing your “righteousness” doesn’t change facts.

Plus your “acid tests” of supporting untenable demands on Israel as “proof” one wants a true 2-state solution is crap.

YOU don’t want a 2-state solution—your acid tests prove.  You want Israel destroyed, overrun and replaced with a single-state Arab-dominated Palestine that encompasses all Israel and the Palestinian territories.  Yet another dictatorship run by corrupt thugs.

This is clear because ALL of your acid tests lead to that inescapable conclusion.  Your support for a 2-state solution is less than you CLAIM Sepharad and I support.  And that’s undeniable.

But please stop lying about us already.  It’s really disgusting that you simply constantly smear us in an attempt to make yourself look moral and righteous.  Instead, you just look like lyin’ fool.

Inherit, Sepharad-  ther reason everyone attacks you is that you give lipservice to a two state solution while supporting in practice Israeli ethnic cleansing and military imperialism.  Obama could create a two state solution by merely ordering Israel to witdraw its troops from Palestine, and the US giving back the Palestinaian the money stolen from them by Israel.

Inherit, you say, vaguely, that you support Obama rsisting yahu’s contnued ethnic cleansing.  Do you favor cutting off funds for Israel and boycotting Israel if they do not comply with a two state solution?  do you favar annuncing that Israel has been based on ethnic cleansing and must now prduce restitution?  Do you favor that Israel is a state of its people and not some kind of fake state for all Jews?

Or is your favoring “Obama resisting’ the usual bullshit while Israel continues to blow up Palestinaian homes to plant settlers, and continues to kill and torture?

Inherit the Wind, Read and agree with your May 8, 8:52 post—all of it. Nothing to add, except the opposition parties are having a very hard time moving Likud and its religious allies the slightest bit. Today, however, on a competitive trail ride involving several riding groups, met a handful of secular Israelis (here visiting family). During the long lunch break, they said that non-religious Jews are getting over-the-top disgusted with the religious, who keep demanding more concessions for themselves from the government and protesting (unsuccessfully, thank goodness)the military’s attempt to remove the fundamentalists’ influence in IDF, and suggested that I watch for some real pitched battles in the Knesset. I suggested they watch out for poison oak, noticing one of them sitting in a huge patch of the stuff growing around the huge tree he was leaning on.

SATURDAY     1209 PM/CST DFW/USA

REF: INHERIT THE WIND

YOU REALY MUST READ ONE REAL PAGE TURN YOU WON’T PUT DOWN UNTIL YOU FINISH, IT IS THAT GOOD.

ANYWAY IT I READ IT TODAY TOOK ME ABOUT THREE HOUSES. iT IS CALL “iTS CALLedd ds,,YHOD GKKTSBP;

FRIDAY   1154 PM/CST DFW/USA

What becomes of a nation when the citizens do not trust its government? Which group has the lower rating, politicians or mainstream media?

Any polls (links) on this issue?

SATURDAY   1125 PM/CST DFW/USA

Israel? Zionism. “The Returns of Zionism” is a good place to sort out this tangled mess.

http://www.versobooks.com/books/nopqrs/nopq-titles/pit erberg_g_returns_of_zionism.shtml

I don’t understand why everyone is upset with the Israeli government. All they want is a little leibensraum.

Netanyahu, as well as all the other Israelis leaders,
is blind to the rights of the Palestinians and argues that they have no right to continue living in greater Israel, that they are trespassers on the land that historically if not for religious reasons belongs to the Jews; that because the Jews are the “chosen people”  must therefore be recognized as morally and ethically superior people, far above the primitive, illiterate Arab squatters whose presence poisons the sacred soil of Israel.

I am becoming convinced that the inner contradictions within Israeli society will destroy it.  Israel cannot continue to exist deluding itself
it is a democracy while denying rights to the Palestinians living within its borders, while claiming it is not a racist society but attempting to remove all trace of the Palestinians, while agreeing to a two-state solution but promoting massive illegal settlement of the West Bank, while brutally attacking Gaza and killing and wounding thousands and destroying the infrastructure, but claiming that they were innocent of the war crimes and crimes against humanity that the world saw on television and is now being documented by Amnesty International and the UN. 

The lies, distortion of the truth and the misinformation promulgated by AIPAC,other Jewish lobby groups and the Israeli army and government
is destroying the very soul of Israeli society and could lead to irrational acts of savage destruction that was meted out to Gazans.  The stockpile of nuclear warheads at the facility at Dimona was developed to defend Israel and attack its enemies.
With Netanyahu as PM and Lieberman as defence minister we are entering into perilous times not seen before and comparable to the Taliban taking over the nuclear stockpile in Pakistan

PatrickHenry, May 9 at 9:17 pm #

Obviously your asshole threshold is so low you must trip over it alot.[
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Yeah. That’s right. Especially here.

By Inherit The Wind, May 9 at 8:39 pm #

Obviously your asshole threshold is so low you must trip over it alot.

The aggression against Palestine has been grossly distorted and increasing in its distortion up to this present day. The consequences of these distortions exponentially fall on the Palestinians to the point of being charged with doing something wrong while bravely standing up to the aggressors’ unending onslaughts in various forms. We have the hard task and responsibility to seek the hidden truth even when it seems to be told because there are a number of entities involved that have a vested interest to keep that truth hidden. Ironically, the truth is not so complicated once you reason through the devised distortions. The perception of complexity dissolves.

The initial distortion created during the eighteen and nineteenth centuries during the European Protestant Christian culture: “The foundational myth that underlies Israeli politics and culture to this day expresses itself in three ways: the ‘negation of exile’ (shelilat ha-galut), the ‘return the land of Israel’ (ha-shiva le-Eretz Yisrael), and the ‘return to history’ (ha-shiva la-historia). They are inextricably intertwined in the master-narrative of Zionism,” Gabriel Piterberg, The Returns of Zionism, Myths, Politics and Scholarship in Israel. http://www.versobooks.com/books/nopqrs/nopq-titles/piterberg_g_returns_of_zionism.shtml

As nothing good comes from a lie, the ongoing distortion continues to increasingly rear the head of the ugly monster that was produced from the initial distortion, while governments, corporations and individuals took and take advantage for their own end gain fueling the perception of complexity.  The distortion and perception of complexity will not end until these entities have the courage to face the truth - that seemingly hidden truth covered through multiple layers of lies propagated by these dishonest brokers (http://web.mit.edu/cis/www/mitejmes/issues/200404/br_bouillon.htm) - and to dismantle the initial distortion. The monster will then cease to exist. If we do not find the moral courage within ourselves (individually and collectively) to find that hidden truth that seems at times so difficult to see (because we do not want to see or to be seen) consequences will follow.  We cannot run and hide from the universal law of cause and effect.  Therefore, I concur with the only two possible alternatives in Fadel Abdallah’s shortest post.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 8 at 3:41 pm #

I will make this my ever shortest comment on issues related to Israel!

Israel and good-faith negotiations are two mutually exclusive issues. However, bad-faith negotiating tactics will be always a gimmick used both as a public deceptive technique and a method to buy time and continue to create fascist-colonial realities on the ground!

There are only two possible alternatives to the world in regard to Israel: One, is that Israel as a political-military entity must cease to exist; two that the whole world must succumb to the Israeli yoke and declare defeat to all common sense laws of truth, justice and decency!

PatrickHenry, May 9 at 12:21 pm #

http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html
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You know, you really should vet this garbage before you post it.  It’s a list of accusations of dual citizenship, totally unsupported.  The author says he found out about these people “on the web”. 

So?  We all know any asshole can post anything on the web, and a hell of a lot of white supremacists post scads of garbage, “proving” Jews are all crooks, but also “proving” Blacks are intellectually inferior, all Arabs are smelly murderers, and Oriental women have sideways vaginas. 

Other assholes post “proof” that cavemen lived with dinosaurs, a la the Flintstones.

None of it’s proven.

BTW, your “source” asked the question “Are all Jews traitors?”  That tells ME everything I need to know about the site’s owner.