AFriend, May 12 at 4:04 pm #

Your sermon on the mount is ill received. I doubt you understand how unwelcome is your pontification. Who are you to lecture anyone?

Giant ego perhaps?

It is rather a simple thing to ignore those with whom you find such egregious fault, try it.

For the very last time, I give to those as they deserve to receive. Tata….

If there was a god, I would be praying to him to PLEASE help me to stick by my premise that “turning people in” is censorship…pleasegodpleasegod…

ardee,—“I return the kindness, and if I am attacked by a couple of schoolyard bullies, I give them a verbal punch in the nose, exactly what bullies deserve.”

—

And you pride yourself on being “open minded”. Am I correct?

Time and time again I have seen you comment someone’s post when they weren’t addressing you directly. And you do this with ill intent. You seem to gain great joy out of flaming others opinions.

Example: The two of us have differences in opinions yet, you’re the only one between us that seems bothered by this. The truth is you’re intolerant of others points of view. There’s a word for this.

I will continue being civil with you although I rarely receive the same in return.

AFriend, May 12 at 9:37 am #

ardee,

You are truly a small person. For a “progressive” you are awfully intolerant in allowing others their own opinions.

.................

Perhaps you might review the posts that led you to form such an opinion. You might discover that I return what I am offered rather than instigate rudeness. Your comment is unfair and perhaps biased. I do not know which but if someone responds to a post of mine with civility I return the kindness, and if I am attacked by a couple of schoolyard bullies, I give them a verbal punch in the nose, exactly what bullies deserve.

In my years of activism, before school boards, boards of supervisors, mayors aides, housing authorities,judges, permit boards etc., ad infinitum I acted with civility because that was the only way to progress. The bullies here seek no progress only to tear down what they barely comprehend.

How about you?

Please stop encouraging DWIGHT..it makes the thread so long as to make all opinions ineffectual.

Do you honestly think that he is going to change his “opinion” about anything? Give it up…it just makes him post longer ones…

”Al Gore is a standard liberal militarist and zionist.  But I liked parts of his book.  Even a blind acorn can find a pig.”—FolkTruther

I wish you would go into more detail about Al Gore’s “Zionism” et al. Also I think you mean a blind pig can find an acorn, don’t you?

Dwight, this was about the reinstatement of the patently un-Constitutional Military Commissions Act that is just a military kangaroo court. By a man of touted change, president #44 Barak H. Obama, which is just from the Bush/Cheney Axis of Evil in the first place. What do you have to say about it? Do you even care in your ramblings in the mind on such a serious issue? I do and it must be stopped. [I don’t think we should even have military courts as separate from civil or criminal courts.]

ardee,

You are truly a small person. For a “progressive” you are awfully intolerant in allowing others their own opinions.

foggyjones, May 12 at 7:14 am #

I truly have no interest in continuing a dialogue with a sophomoric little fellow as yourself. FYI, not that you care for anything more than your own image reflected in the monitor, but I first came to this site in 2007, I am in my sixties , the father of four and grandfather of fourteen and two thirds.

When approached with an adult level of conversation I respond in kind, when attacked by a childish little shit like you I tend to respond in kind as well. I would remind you of your hypocracy with this citing of your response to conservativeslayer:

foggyjones, May 5 at 7:51 pm #

TUESDAY   643 PM/CST   DFW

Right, you voted for Obama but now you have seen the light. Gimme a break, you never voted for Obama. But you guys just growl and hang on to the same old dry bones. If it wasn’t Gitmo or abortion, it would be about spending another trillion fighting those hoardes of terrorists invading the USA. Wake up and smell the coffee, dude, nobody is interested in that old Moral Majority rhetoric. Jobs, wrecked 401Ks, unpredictable gas and energy prices looming ahead, wrecked stock market, awesome bailouts and, my God!, you think anybody gives a flying Fk about Gitmo?

That is absurd and you are just wasting good blogging space.

...Speaking of wasted space, you hypocrite!

For Mr. Baker:

I care not a fig for your religious convictions, sir, what I come here for is not a recitation of your opinion of the politics of Jerusalem two thousand years ago, or your opinion of my mental state either. What I desire is an honest debate regarding the issues of the day, so, in order to achieve such I will leave you two little boys alone with each other..play nice now kids and there will be milk and cookies later…kosher if possible.

DWIGHTBAKER, May 11 at 6:28 am #

When Bob Scheer set up TRUTHDIG it was for those with an informed opinion to have forums of discussion that would lead most to resolutions needed for the well being of our Nation.
................................

But did he intend to provide a forum for a religious nutjob to spout almost incomprehensible rants about the history of Judaism and the relationship between the poster and his belief system?

What on earth your proselytizing has to do with political discourse is a mystery, frankly, and , once again I ask you, arent you delaying the doing of your “master’s bidding” in remaining here after you noted that you were late to overthrow the Bilderberg Conspiracy in the nameo f Jesus?

By foggyjones, May 8 at 12:14 pm #

FRIDAY   1105 AM/CST DFW

REF: ARDEE

Ardee is clearly an ardent zealot delivering another irrational declaration about the sorrow and misery of his zionist sect. you forgot to add the usual stories of the romans and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the Holocaust. You phoney, there have been millions of Anglo-Saxon Jews. It is hard to determine whether you are simply lying or truly ignorant.

................................

I would love to respond to this comment, but I haven’t a single clue as to what the hell you are babbling about. Of course, having read much of your efforts here I clearly see that neither do you.

Max, I think Cheney, Rumsfield and Bush differed from previous imperialists by being crazed pschopaths bent on demented military adventure.  They embodied what Eric Hobsbabm called the ‘megalomainia’ of imperialism. 

No other US adminitration helped orchestrate a false flag operation on the civilian American people and declared an endless war based on agression, torture and coercion against a minor world police problem.  Obama is continuing that war.

Al Gore is a standard liberal militarist and zionist.  But I liked parts of his book.  Even a blind acorn can find a pig.  Or something like that.  Even Inherit sometimes says something relevant, interesting a progressive in between accusing the world of anti-semitism and setting up an Arabian Califate (which I have dibs on being the Caliph.)  Gore’s campaign manager was Peretz, the publisher of the Zionist New Republic.

“Thus that proves to me that your claim to be Jew(?) is more along the line of the RICH and OVER BURDENING Saducees than those along the lines of the Pharisees. And to that end you and those like you are called to represent the Bilderbergs looking to money to solve all life crisis them that has got the money makes all the rules.”—Dwight Baker

Well, your first line is a bit unfocused to me. What is “my claim to be Jew” mean? I never claimed or inferred that at all. I don’t hate you or anything like that. To me it is a myth. Live with it. I live with you believing it is all real don’t I? No harm no foul eh? Chill.

“Now I want you to take your best shots at me to really try and kill that fire that burns in me today for soon I will be gone from TRUTH DIG, for I have dug up the treasures that laid right here in the ones that Post the Most back yard now we must tend to the Masters business and take our country back away from that crooked ass bunch the Bilderbergs.”

There are plenty of super rich right here and not a Bilderberg in sight of them. Richer than they are and just as powerful and Christian too. I have no interest in your fire. You take it too personally and ascribe to me characteristics I do not possess but you might though. Ever heard of the term ‘projection’ in you lexicon? To me it fits. Sorry if I struck a nerve too close to your home.

“So your entire persona of claiming these dumb ass preachers leading everyone into slavery is just absurd.  Most of them have not got a clue but they like many more like the money.  Have you never heard “that the love of money is the root of all evil?”

Yes, I heard. Let us take it to a deeper level shall we? Don’t insult me with the kindergarten material okay? Who said they were “preachers” necessarily and many of them are also industrialists and millionaires and in the military too.  The families are all American and many of them believe in their brand of Christianity that also supports their elitism and general view of the world. What I said was true and Constantine created the idea of the Christian Soldier used ever since. The Dominionists are anything but “dumb” or they couldn’t have gotten this far.

“So MosesNG have your hay day while the pagans have their May Day and all stay in some type of mindless chit chat while our nation is burning and we the ones called will go save you just because we love all of mankind.”

Good, while you are following the red herring of the European Banking family ( who would lose more if they supported our collapse) the real criminals will follow through and bring this country down so that they can build on its ruins a new American Empire. Oh and why are you still insulting Moses?

“Now try beating your tongue into submission.”

Nice parting shot. Maybe you should take your own advice. Or is that an insult? If so then I will apologize for you. For your tongue wags in a crazy way on its own. Quaint and eccentric. Read the 1st Amendment for a refresher.

There are some very real myths among those who seek to blame ‘worldwide Jewry’ for all the problems in this world. They use the fact that jews are far more likely to be in commerce than agriculture for example, forgetting that jews were banned from ownership of land for centuries.

Further they forget ,or more likely refuse to consider, that the real wealth of this planet resides within white anglo saxon families, as it has for a very long time. They also seem hell bent on linking a religion ( Judaism) with a government ( that of Israel).

I guess noone can dissuade these folks from their beliefs, but I for one hope that this minority among us experiences a moment of sanity , and real soon too.

Gotta run now, Im meeting with two of the twelve rabbis who run the world…oops Ive said too much.

Folktruther,

To your reference of Gore, while he’s made some conversions, his role in pushing for military interventionism and the Washington Consensus is well documented. There is not saintly “reasonable” player when it comes to the empire. Just a lot of cheap tit for tat talk (again, political theater that knows its clear boundaries of what’s in and out of bounds for discourse.)

Folktruther

I’m not sure what an imperial president (which is what we’ve had for many many decades - some would argue since the inception of the United States) can do to un-imperialize the US Empire. I would say, Russia provides one example and Britain another. Perhaps the US Empire will find another way to end.

The system provides the context for GW Bush, not the other way around. I would argue that Bush has followed the legacy set for him. That he was bad at it can certainly be supported by various facts, but all and all he is the result of the Empire. He did not make the rules. The treaties and rules have been trashed through much of US history. Used when convenient to prosecute two bit dictators; and relatively week tyrannts.

We lost the Republic (the one Franklin said it was ours to keep or loose) many many decades ago. We looked for a savior and found it first with Lincoln and to a greater extent in FDR. The latter, though he is a favorite of liberals, but the nail in the coffin of the Republic by concentrating near total power in the executive branch (you can argue his cause was just, but in the end it’s a bargain with the devil; you can’t have your cake (republic) and eat it (live in a republic) too).

The concentration of power is no where clearer than in the US’s National Security which claims the world is ours to preserve for the sake of democracy/liberty where, when and how we please. We take this so for granted that it is the mantra which must be campaigned on and carried out above all else by each President.

In this context, George W. Bush becomes less and less an actor than a principle adherent to the American DC Consensus Ideology. Again, he carried out this deal with less finesse than some, with a ruthlessness, minus cunning and charm of his predecessors - which is his biggest crime in the eyes of the power elite.

The play book is in secure hands with Obama. He is everything and more that the power elite could ask for. The grand symbolisim allows him to march forward with the same policies as Bush (at least for now).

Each and everyone of them should be prosecuted, but none will; because Each and EVERYONE of them is something that is totally and completely unacceptable. The great inertia of political haggling will see to it that Bush will go un-scathed by his butchery. Remember to that if we are to mark this maddness by sheer numbers of lives destroyed, certainly Clinton would lead Bush on that front.

Stealing elections is meaningful if there is trully a difference between the core policies.

FolkTruther you must understand that some of the richest families and powerful and connected corporations they own have been working toward cementing control over us since they first tried in 1934. (No it wasn’t the Progressives as Glenn Beck promotes.) The “Fraternity” failed but weren’t punished so they traded with the enemy (the Axis) and bide their time till in 1980 they got their front man elected. Just coincided with the beginning decline of the Middle Class continuing now. From 1945 to 1980 were when the Middle Class was formed and at its height, then a steady decline. That wasn’t an accident either.

They are working to bring us down in order to build up their new world of a Calvinist Utopia for the 21st century. We even now are teetering on the edge of the abyss they are waiting with their claws to give us a hand to save us. From barbarism to exchange for a rigid theocratic militaristic corporate nation-state. [Shock Doctrine for us.] Believe me, most would chose that over violence and cannibalism and social destruction should we collapse from a terrorist precipitated economic shock to a fragile situation.

Think of Obama as the lesser appearing evil hidden unlike the brain damaged 1st choice that a judge stopped them from giving us. Remember that the lead IT guy was called in and later died before he could spill the secrets he knew. Cheney’s hit squad in action?

Max, what the Bushites did different from their predicessors is to orchestrate a domestic false flag operation that killed 2 or 3 thousand Americans.  this after stealing the election and impeaching Clinton over some triviality.

This is a crazy adventure and has led to a crazy leadership of the American power sructure.  It led to the power sec of Defense invading a country using his new military gizmos and completely ignoring occupying it, firing the generals who advocated it.  It led to what Al Gore called in his book AN ASSAULT ON REASON that including the hijacking of US policies by Zionists.  IT institutionalized political and ideological insanity.

this is not irrelevant to imperialism in an age with nuclear weapons.  It is why Geogia attacked Russia, and the US and Israel is still insanely conducting military exercises there agaainst Russia.  It is why the US under Obama is still bent on putting first strike missiles into Poland.

The political counter revolution by the Bushites, continued by Obama, accentuated that megalomania that the British historian Eric Hobsbawn stated is common to imperialism.  I would guess more so in its last stages historically. 

I don’t think it is possible for the American population to effectively resist the oppression of the US power structure without factoring in the political insanity that has both preconditioned and is the consequence of the Bushite political counter revolution.

hippie4ever—I cant seem to remember where it was, but, I followed your links to Naomi Klein and Marcy Kaptur—good stuff…I was looking for Klein’s interview.

Cute cartoon on the end, too. (you have to wait—-or I did, and, then it logs off and then…lol)

NYCArtist—Excellent links..

Night Guant—That may be ok, for those who have the time and resources. But for those who do not, it is just a confusing swirl. (many times, you just know that you are being bullshitted, but, you cannot get true info anywhere—not everyone has full internet access, nor even cable, although cable news, except maybe c-span, will do you no good in looking for objectivity)In most modern, “democratic” countries, there is state sponsored news, which is supposed to not have a stake in the outcome of the news (well, you know what I mean)

It may not always be true,(although, Scandanavian public tv blasts the hell out of its govt—an exciting thing to see!) but, as long as google and Murdoch keep monopolizing the news, most cannot hope to get objective news, although I do think objectivity is possible.

Dwight Baker doesn’t like to answer questions given to him. He dissembles and equivocates and deflects to others. A dead end as much as a dejected and angry Moses when he saw those following the worship of the Golden Calf when he returned from Mount Siani with the Ten Commandments. (The first set anyway.)

Why don’t you read my other threads to get your answers. And while you are at it what are some of your ways of correcting this problem 226 years in the making?

Dwightbaker, you need to chill out, man. You’re talking crazy talk, like Parsons on acid or John Birch on too much caffeine. Yes times are bad and people are now socially conditioned and blinded by a comprehensive propaganda apparatus (can I say prop-app?) but here’s the thing: we cannot defeat our adversaries by sliding into hysteria. Rationality matters, truth matters, logic rules, man. Take a deep breath, go for regular walks, and contemplate the essence of now. Blather about biblical history is so very unhelpful and is one hallmark of a crackpot. Step away from the dark side.

A day in a military tribunal, as a person with a label that has no legal meaning (“enemy combatant”) is not a real day in court, as lopsided as the US court system is in getting equal justice for all.  But a real US court is better than a military tribunal. 

I go with the lawyers who I respect on this: Marjorie Cohn http://www.marjoriecohn.com

and Michael Ratner, Center for Constitutional Justice.

Jeremy Scahill’s blog is good, too. RebelReports
http://rebelreports.com

Yes JackPineSavage that is the case and as we continue in the inverted authoritarian model we can shift to the overt with just the least catalyst. Watch with skepticism but not a closed mind. Read voraciously from all possible points of view till you find those that fit what you see as the sense of things. When you cut through the managed data stream to what you can perceive as the truth. For you see perception is reality. Objecivism is impossible in a quantum probable world but you can work at it. The only way you can have in a ‘no spin zone’ is that all spinning forces are acting at once to negate each other. ‘Spin’ being the bias, natural to anyone, being implicit in each and every news source. Even just a little. We can overcome it by reporting things we don’t like but as truthful and complete as possible.

Knowledge of rhetoric and propaganda to the language itself and how to construct and deconstruct the means of communication and nuance and even layered forms of speech. In code, so-to-speak also are important. It takes time and effort and could cool you personal life with friends and lovers but it is important. Not having many friends and no lovers I have plenty of time to do so. Mine is an exception in this case. Better than being drugged out by far.

Oh and just ignore Dwight Baker who does this schtick every time, on many threads.

My purpose here is to state my opinion, just like everyone else, ardee.

And my opinion is that your hope is hollow.  As others have pointed out, Obama is just a continuation.  He’s certainly no break from the past.

I have no clue what he thinks and feels, but that’s immaterial.  He’s put on the purple robe to strut and fret his hour upon the stage. 

I have no political loyalties, ardee.  Why would i be loyal to a form of politics, a politician, or a party?  None of them are going to return the favor.

If i were to develop political loyalties it would come from someone practicing a logical, historically informed, long-term foreign policy.  But that isn’t going to to happen so i don’t have to worry about loyalties.

But go ahead and keep trying to insinuate that i’m a closet Republican here to stir up trouble…seems as that’s all you’ve got. (and, btw, i’ve been here for several years so i’m pretty confident that the regulars know that is not the case.)

Conservativeslayer,

You were, in fact, duped.

It’s a shame more Americans didn’t look at the presidents history, read his books, study his associations and research his voting record. Most people assumed this politician’s colorful words were enough to vote for.—Of course the media’s love affair with their messiah didn’t help to educate the public.

I like President Obama on a personal level but, transparent he’s not!

By the way: Military tribunals are both constitutional and lawful. They are also, unfortunately, necessary.

Folktruther,

I appreciate your point. There is a difference between GW Bush and Clinton, but these are insignificant in the context of empire. That is my point.

There is some difference in degree. What GWB did was expose in unabashed “form” what this government does and has been doing.

I don’t think there is much that Bush did that hadn’t been done by predecessors, not all of it immediately before him.

This is a lawless nation. We’ve been going to war without Congressional declaration since Korea. We’ve occupied nations for centuries. I think a reading of the run up to WWI with the “progressive president of Princton” Woodrow Wilsom will provide you with an idea of just how bad it can get here regarding the Constitution, and civil/human rights.

Did anyone see the “
news” that, we are considering (get ready) NOT selling (is it nukes??) arms to United Arab Emerites, because we have “tapes of them torturing people”—hey! We’re not allowed to say that anymore, folks!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Max, let me try again.  I am not talking about the substance of the policies of Clinton, Bush, Obama.  I am talking about the FORM THAT POWER TAKES.  With 9/11 and the War on Terrorism, the form that power takes in the US changed.  Congress and law were marginalized and we are ruled now administratively by presidential fiat and the police, intelligence agencies and military that the president controls.

A political revolution occurred, under the guise that we are at War, and always will be. Clinton did horrible things but he was opposed effectively by power in Congress and more or less obeyed the law.  Bush didn’t.  And Obama is continuing this transformation from tradition American Democracy, such as it is.

If you don’t accept that a power form has changed, that’s fine.  Most people don’t.  I still respect your posts.

re: Max Shields

Yes Max “The Grand Illusion” seems destined to go on forever here in the U.S. because “pretending that you are not pretending” has been refined to the point of a cold blooded art. Take the lies about the bank theft, the military tribunals, the double cross of labor rights, it just goes on and on…
Maybe it will dawn on some folks that politics, and the illusion that You can make a difference, has been revealed as the time wasting diversion that it is. “The old rights of the free American,” as H.L. Mencken once observed, “so carefully laid down by the Bill of Rights, are now worth nothing.”
And now we have a constitutional law professor as President, to say this is not so?

thebeerdoctor,
Yes and we hear it today for H. Clinton regarding the killing of 150 Afghans (mostly civilians and children), how sorry “we are”....

Sorry, let’s start bombing her fuckn’ home and see how SORRY works for her and her tribe. Sorry. Because 3,000 people were killed 9 years ago by Saudis? What the fuck do these people take to sleep at night? Nothing, because they are idealogues that believe that America has been blessed by God to do what ever it deems necessary to ensure democracy is safe throughout the world. Democracy…what a corruption of a principle. Safe…for who? those children who will never see another day, for the limbless civilians lives ripped apart forever?

This is the bullshit we keep going like life only matters when it’s an American life. Otherwise the world is just a piss hole. It’s a racist attitude that pervades the empire, it’s elite and the players that make it tick.

Meanwhile, Biden is kissing AIPAC ass and you can be sure, Israel will get everything they want in military armament from the US and this administration.

Balless Obama just can’t say no to AIPAC, but pisses on workers when they want a shot at unionizing.

Don’t tell me there’s a real difference between bubble head and bird brain.

re: Max Shields

Bringing up the Iraqi embargo, I will always be reminded of how President Clinton washed his hands of the whole atrocity, by simply claiming that Saddam Hussein had more $ billions nine years after the embargo began. Google up: Amy Goodman interviews President Bill Clinton. All those deaths, was a “tough one” said Sec. of State Albright, but was “worth it”.

Folktruther,

It is not a different thing, in my book when 1/2 million children die in Iraq because of the US embargo and the deadly tonage of US bombs. No, that’s as illegal as anything Bush did.

That’s the problem, war crimes began decades ago and continue to this Very Day.

(by the way I didn’t think you were arguing with someone else. Nor was I pointing a figure at you regarding your overall positions. It was a general statement because on this board we know there are those just happy as pigs in shit that Obama is in charge of the continued warmongering rather than the Repub version. But that’s another story).

When children are being killed by US military or through proxy, I don’t equivocate on who’s in the White House. A criminal is a criminal. Dead is dead.

Obama is still waging a war on terror as a continuation of 9/11. 9/11 was an excuse to escalate and move forward with what Clinton, et al already put in place. That Clinton did not do a complete invasion is rather trite. He invade the Balkins for christ’s sake!! How about Somolia? How about Haiti? And as I mentioned he continued to brutalize the Iraqi people.

These,  Folktruther, are murderous crimes. You can bicker all you want about whether Bush took it to a new level. (It’s still at that level. Obama signed off on the Patriot Act…his economic policies are no different than Bush’s).

It’s bull shit differences. Obama’s man Biden went before AIPAC and kissed ass BIG TIME. Where’s the love for the unions? Why is single payer “off the table”? Why why why why.

Nothing Obama has done so far is more than symbolic. He’s got no spine. Never did and won’t. Talking about degrees of difference between him and Bush when looked at closely is like spliting hairs.

It sounds good to say, “he’s going to close Gitmo” or “he’s ending the war in Iraq” when in fact his mission is identical to Bush.

Again 9/11 was a pretext, and Obama is on the same page with Bush. Listen to him and his LONG WAR. Long war against who? for what?

No, Max, Foggy, I am not arguing that the Dems are Gops are essentially different.  We all agree that they are funded and media’d and managed by the agents of the same ruling class or Elite. 

I am arguing that an historical event occurred in 9/11 which caused a historical discontinuity between what happened previously and the following War on Terrorism.  The historical event that occurred is that the American people’s Constitutional rights were aborted because we were now in an endless War.

It is a very different thing for Clinton to pass a resolutuion calling for the removal of Saddam, and for Bush to invade Iraq.  One of the major reasons why Clinton was impeached on the absurd charges was because he would not engage in a military compaign that the right wanted because of the power vacuum that occrued due to the Soviet counterrevolution.

Clinton therefore was not similar to Bush, in the sense that he would initiate a War.  Obama is.  Obama is closer to Bush than he is to Clinton, since that is what the ruling class put him in power for, to rehabilitate Bush’s policies, as Ahmed put it.

I am not arguing that there is a fundamental difference in the parties.  There is a fundamental political differnce in Bush-Obama on one hand, and Clinton on the other. 

And this political differnce occurse largely because of the enormous social inequality that occurred because of globalization in the past decades, where there is, indeed, continuity between Reagan, clinton, etc.

Folktruther,
The continuity is crystal clear. Do you know who signed and with bi-partisan approval the resolution to oust the Saddam regime in the 1990s?  Bill Clinton and the Dems!!

Not to see this continuity is to continue to follow blindly what Americans (particularly liberals who frankly find nothing wrong with a little war, even if it means civilians and children are killed just as long as it’s adroit.).

Hawks are not conservative per se. So, when some here and elsewhere consider themselves progressives or liberable that doesn’t mean their for peace and an end to the American Empire, they just want to brand it with a softer touch.

When some of us argue with the Obamaites, we think we’re just having a minor disgreement and that Obama will show his “true progressive colors”, but the issue is deeper. The American culture is built on empire - there’s the Repub version and the Dem version, but he mission is IDENTICAL.

The trajectory is the same, name an issue. The difference between Repubs and Dems in action, as they vote, is mere theatrical quibbling.

The war on terror did NOT begin with G.W. Bush. God man, where were you during the 90s (and before)?

Msx, I would disagree that there is continuity between Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.  There is discontinuity between Bush 2 and Clinton.  Under the impetus of 9/11, the Bushites conducted a political counter revolution that opratively stripped the American people of their Constitutional rights under the enternal War on Terrorism.  There IS continuity between Obama and Bush 2, in the sense that Obama is continuing this War while pretending to abolish it and changing the political style to appeal to Dems and Moderates while maintaining Bush policies.

The historical problem at the present time is not intellectual ignorance-not knowing- but political denial-not wanting to know.  The American people do not want to know that they have no Constituiontal rights anymore.  We are systematically being spyed, on, we can be declared unlawful combatants at a whim, we can be abducted, imprisoned, disappeared and murdered, and there is nothing we can do about it legally.  There is no operative American law anymore for the general person, only administrative power for the powerful. 

The endless War on Terrorism applies to Americans.  If gitmo inmates can be tried by rigged courts, so can Americans.  If the power structure wants to prevent you from flying they just add you to alist.  If they want to loot the treasury, they do so.
They are no longer bound by traditional restrictions.

Clinton was a corrupt minion of the ruling class, but there was a qualitative political change between him and Bush 2, and I am not referring to a simple change of party.  It was the same change that occurred when the Roman republic became an Empire, with an Emperor as a military dictator.  The Roman Senate and all the officals remained the same, but real power shifted to the executive.

And Obama, who campaigned on Hope n Change, continues instead the Bushite political counter revolution.  And Obama cheerleaders like Purplegirl will waive their pompoms for whatever he does.  But it is crucial that we get the population to understand that an enormous political transformation has occurred, and the prisons and concentration camps have already been built in the US to maintain it.  And they will be used unless the population is mobilized against them.

The problem is that Obama’s “promises” weren’t ever spelled out so he didn’t lie, he just didn’t state all the facts. A deception by omission. This is what we get with a closed, two party only system, it breeds intermarriage and corruption in gov’t and a concentration of power. The Dominionists are going whole hog in our military on every level to make sure it is Holy Christian Warriors not a mixed group that believes in the Bible over the Constitution/Bill of Rights or theocracy over democracy. It is still strong. Today’s Democracy Now had it as one of the main subjects. (5/6/09)

Just imagine replacing the swastika with a smiley face or the hammer and sickle with a “Hello Kitty” make what it represents any better? No so why do you think that a bright, young face and pleasant family will be any different in the nitty gritty? When he comes from the same cabal in the first place?

Don’t worry JackPineSavage the revolving door of the 2-party (only) system will churn out two choices for you to make even if it isn’t a real choice at all. Just like the last few “elections” where our “choices” were made for us long before anyone was presented to us as the only “viable” ones.

PurpleGirl, only the extreme right wing, that owns most of the airwaves says that extreme leftists (who are you/they speaking of) “hate the USA?” How is a date in a kangaroo court any better?

tomack—what the hell happened to “holding his feet to the fire”?? “We have to push him to do the right thing”?? Wait until its all over??

We have done that and done that.

tomack,

You obviously missed my point - HE’s “SCREWED THE POOCH”.

What you seem to be missing is the fact, well documented, that each of these presidents are an extention of a power elite and American ideology that they swore to uphold before they took office and have repeated ever since.

This is not going to change because the man in the White House is “different”. You DON’T become the man in the White House if you are DIFFERENT. It’s just that simple, tomack. There’s nothing to wait for. We can see what else he does not protect the empire as he continues the Dem version of theatrics.

But what’s the point. Gitmo will not be shut down. He won’t fight to get the money to shut it down, just like he hasn’t lifted a finger to fight for workers’ rights, etc. He says things and and even moves little gestures but he is an imperialist leader. His obligation is to continue down the path set before him, CONTINUITY. Remember, or are just waiting for him to turn into something/one else?

What are you waiting for? He’s shown you his hand. That’s what’s in it. Aint got nothing else. He’ll play it till his term is over and if he’s minded his ps and qs he may get elected again. But so what? We still got the empire.

Unless you understand that you have no sense of history.

KDelphi, with Obama it’s drip drip. Say this, let your justice dept do the opposite (to the right). Say that, let the Congress (you know the Dem congress) take it down (and you/Obama don’t raise a hand; with all that “political capital” which will fade fast, he never uses it. Why? Because he knows it aint real. You do what you’re elected to do (I don’t mean what the “people” elected you to do, but what the power elite positioned you to do) or your washed up, fast.)

I size up Obama (as I did from day one) as a conformist, who searches out power, figures out what the rules are and OBEYS.

Maxy boy, I never kid myself, and I always pay attention (and I never judge others not to until I know for sure—and you do not). You don’t need to “school” me on world history, and how the U.S. is only the most recent holder of the championship title when it comes to screwing over the world—and our own people—for its own gain. Need I school you on all the previous title holders?

What I meant here is: wait. At least wait until it is all said and done. Then, if O screws the pooch and doesn’t offer a good enough reason, by all means jump all over him. But at least give the benefit of the doubt until the case is wrapped up. 

Because if you think this is done, you are kidding yourself. HOPEfully he’ll do the right thing.

WHY (loyal Dems), PLEASE tell me why Dems joined in GOP efforts to deny the funding ($81 million) to close GITMO?? There MAY be a perfectly good reason, but, if there is , I dont see it…

They voted to name these people as “enemy combatants” in the first place!! If they hadnt, we would not be in this part of the horror show, as far as I can tell! These people would be POWs or civilians CHARGED with “crimes” , instead of many being there by virtue of their neighbor not liking them and being broke during an invasion…

RAE—NOw this is truly sad..“I don’t know how anyone could withstand the corporate powerhouses that really run things in this world… I give Obama high points for trying… but I fear he’s going to cave. Yes, I’ll blame him for failing to live up to his promises even while I’m amazed he’s been “allowed” to try this long.”

C’mon, man…

Max Shields—Last week, I had a few people really jump my ass about Pres. Obama, saying,. ” 1)“he closed GITMO”.!2) “we’re leaving Iraq!” 3)“He gave you $250! What do you want!!”

Well, I said, 1) we’ll see when it happens. 2) ditto and 3) keep it and put all that money towards a single payer health care plan (NOT “insurance”!)

tomack,

Holding out “hope” is exactly the game plan. If you track US recent history over the last 60 or so years in particular and look closely at the trajectory, you can peel off the Obama “happy face” to see Bush and behind that layer is Clinton, then Bush Senior and then Reagan. The trajectory is seamless. Even the faux differences are the same: political theater to keep “hope alive” while the policies remain the same.

The things to pay attention to is how Obama’s (and his precessors) maintain an entrenched view of America’s mission in the world. This is more important that style, eloquence, charm, and soft/hard power talk. The mission is the same and the use of military force (collateral damage and all) is clearly more than on the table: it’s being used to the full extent. It is a lawless use of force predicated on the ideological imperative that America is to lead the world, and make it safe for democracy.

This is Obama talk as it was all president’s in my life time.

Stop kidding yourself and pay attention. A little Gitmo closure and ooops not so fast. A little we don’t torcher, and ooops not so fast. And rendition is over, oooops not so fast. And on and on it goes.

Obama knows (and is better at) stringing along the sorry liberals who help put him in while he does EVERYTHING that his predecessor did. In fact, George W. Bush (while his implementation lacked finesse) was simply taking the baton from HIS predecessors.

Nothing new, nothing changed.

For your information foggy, I spent months volunteering for the Obama campaign in my local community. While most people didn’t get involved til the fall, I was out knocking on doors at the beginning of summer. Every weekend I went canvassing. I did data entry at the local Obama office. While I couldn’t donate money, I donated something much more valuable my Time. Yes I did vote for Obama, you are a moron foggy.

Obama is morphing from “Bush-lite” to just plain old Bush.

Seems to be WAY too much finality to most of these comments, including Mr. Cohen’s. This isn’t over yet, and could still play out to differnet ends. A military court can still be very influenced by the ruling administration.

On the surface I don’t like this either, but it’s not over til it’s over.

Apologies, my mac has a ‘double click’ feature that gave the two posts.

I lost the person-by-person responses, over the limit (cliff in this case).

{{Purple Girl, May 6 at 10:02 am}} writes well, and I observe that she can type fast, fine, so I’ll try this, however this reduces the full response to the bloggers posted.  Ok.

With respect to each post, that is a presumption of true “innocence”, and my inability to spell often, let the good news roll.

TO: ardee, May 6 at 8:12 am and RAE, May 6 at 8:06 am

In previewing my composition, over 4K bytes, and your two blogs are relevant, so ideas of independence and third party, good!

Social Networking means to me an array of things, products and educations, “labor”, “bean counting”, expressing how feelings to count.

Do I expect brutality to stop, for Wars to stop?  Yes, but not instantly, as would nuclear wars may cause by reducing both are lives and health,  so Obama’s energies seem a gift, keeping him be being isolated to the point of tragic errors of any sort may take time, but the path should not be so bumpy as to throw us off the cliff into just what we are trying to avoid.

So slow down?  Yes, but not here.  I’ll post part of my person-by- person responses, but if not possible, chalk it up to global warming dissolving the calcium ocean reefs.  Note that since Calcium is the back bone of life (generic), and it the most compact element, even the 20 Nation Talks could be modeled after 20Ca40’s abstract 5-felt cap, 10-felt ring, 5-felt bottom, and handicapping the smaller populations to give proportional powers to nations, a contrast to the present money driven organization that is only proportional to wealth.

That is we need to re-examine how money dominates giving some individuals disproportionate powers.
______________________________
[to be continued]

TO: ardee, May 6 at 8:12 am and RAE, May 6 at 8:06 am

In previewing my composition, over 4K bytes, and your two blogs are relevant, so ideas of independence and third party, good!

Social Networking means to me an array of things, products and educations, “labor”, “bean counting”, expressing how feelings do count.

Do I expect brutality to stop, for Wars to stop?  Yes, but not instantly, as would nuclear wars may cause by reducing both are lives and health,  so Obama’s energies seem a gift, keeping him be being isolated to the point of tragic errors of any sort may take time, but the path should not be so bumpy as to throw us off the cliff into just what we are trying to avoid.

So slow down?  Yes, but not here.  I’ll post part of my person-by- person responses, but if not possible, chalk it up to global warming dissolving the calcium ocean reefs.  Note that since Calcium is the back bone of life (generic), and it the most compact element, even the 20 Nation Talks could be modeled after 20Ca40’s abstract 5-felt cap, 10-felt ring, 5-felt bottom, and handicapping the smaller populations to give proportional powers to nations, a contrast to the present money driven organization that is only proportional to wealth.

That is we need to re-examine how money dominates giving some individuals disproportionate powers.
______________________________
[to be continued]

A ‘Day in Court’ is better tahan NO day in Court.As you so rightly pointed out Obama merely suspended the commission until it’s processes could be reviewed. Just because it is a military court does not mean it is necessarily a Kangaroo court.
I woul dmuch rather see these people have the opprotunity to present their defense than linger any longer in limbo. Further the is the very real possiblity these detainees were actually guilty of conspiracy to committ crimes against the US. Nothing pisses me off than Killers Like OJ getting off on a Technicality- so why should the yet to be proven ascertion that Torture was employed on them in particular, let these potential enemies get off scott Free?
As for those who have been unjustly held and mistreated or tortured-  I am all for reparations.I fthey were swept up and held without good reason, they not only suffered illegal imprisonment, but also lost the ability to earn a living and support their families- we owe them so consideration and open exoneration.
I reject the claim that all these detainees are guilty of terrorism, but I also reject the presumption that they are all innocent too.Let’s hear these cases, allow the Public to view them with full disclosure.
The Far Left is as blinded by their own fanatical doctrine as the Far Right. Believe it or not Fringe Lefties- some people hate US and are out to get US.the problem with these two ends of th econtinum is that both only see the world through their own Black or White dogmas. Theres a lot of Gray shit that reacting to only black or white will not only miss, but could be detrimental in the long run.It’s just as shortsighted to say all these people deserve to be releasd no questions asked as it was to round them up, no questions asked.‘Release First and ask questions later’ is as stupid and ill fated as ‘Arrest first and ask questions later’.
And although we have the Right to judge these possible enemies of our country in our courts- It is not our right to Try those who perpetruated war crimes in our Courts. The Bushies et al must stand trial in the international court or in the countries who’s citizens they committed high crimes against. The international Red cross deemed their actions ‘Torture’ that relegates the prosecution of those crimes in the international realm.
We will try those detainees with in the confines of our legal system and the Global community can try the Bushies within the scope of theirs.

jackpine posted:

I do not belong to any political party.  I have never voted for a Republican (i did once vote for the WWP rather than voting for Bill Clinton).  I voted for Obama.

What about your political loyalties?

ardee responds:
What about them?

jack….
Clearly the Democratic Party is in favor of this, just as clearly as they did nothing to stop the original act when it was written by the Bush administration.

ardee:
Clearly you have an inflated opinion of your abilities of divination, just as when you posted:
“But see, now those commissions are good and wholesome because they are a Democratic decision…”

Perhaps the democratic party is in favor of this ruling, but I will await the news that they are rather than accepting you as an authority on this subject. Further you hint at a widespread acceptance of such among democrats and bloggers, an opinion you seem to manufacture out of whole cloth.

jack:
And just as clearly as that, it doesn’t matter what progressive web sites say or how the people who voted for Obama feel, does it?

ardee:
Then what, I wonder, is your purpose here if there is , as you postulate, no hope for a change of direction? My main problem with you Jack, aside from your apparent godlike ability to know all things, is that you offer nothing in the way of solution. We, all of us,come here with opinion, some of us with possible solutions, some with only questions that need answers. I try to keep an open mind regarding most stuff, and especially try hard to avoid leaping to conclusions that may later embarrass the shit out of me.

I did post , prior to this, my extreme displeasure with this decision, and my puzzlement as to its reasons. But, unlike you, I refrained from posting conjecture wrapped up as fact.

Back to my politics…..I am an independent voter, registered as a Green because they need the numbers. I believe that third party politics is a necessary and missing ingredient in a system gone rancid with corruption and greed. Further I think that the addition of socialism into our democratic process with respect to cradle to grave health care, free education for all, and true equality of opportunity is a great idea.

Now you know.

I sure hope the President takes a few moments out of his rock-star schedule to read these comments. If he bails on many more of his promises he’s going down, fast. The American people simply are in no mood to tolerate any more bullshitting liars running their affiars.

I’m sure he’s being “visited” on all sides by the “establishment bullies” and “educated” about how things “are done in the real world” (read: You - Obama - have been elected to front for us - you talk and look pretty but it is WE who pull the strings - you do as we say, or you’ll be looking for a job real quick).

I don’t know how anyone could withstand the corporate powerhouses that really run things in this world… I give Obama high points for trying… but I fear he’s going to cave. Yes, I’ll blame him for failing to live up to his promises even while I’m amazed he’s been “allowed” to try this long.

ardee,

I do not belong to any political party.  I have never voted for a Republican (i did once vote for the WWP rather than voting for Bill Clinton).  I voted for Obama.

What about your political loyalties?

Clearly the Democratic Party is in favor of this, just as clearly as they did nothing to stop the original act when it was written by the Bush administration.

And just as clearly as that, it doesn’t matter what progressive web sites say or how the people who voted for Obama feel, does it?

Like i said, i voted for Obama…but that’s not a mistake that i’ll make again.

Conservativeslayer: you’ve been bamboozled. It is hard for the folks who actually bought into Obama enough to work for his election, to now have to face the fact that the newly elected President has quickly metamorphosed into a lying sack of you-know-what, like so many that preceded him.

Jackpine, Do you seek to justify your own blind loyalties to another political entity by insisting that something is true because you say it is?

I fail to see a shred of evidence to support your contention, so , aside from the right wing airwaves, where are your proofs? I see the opposite , at least on this and a number of other progressive sites.

But see, now those commissions are good and wholesome because they are a Democratic decision…

foggyjones…what an appropriate name

I would suggest ,as respectfully as possible considering the tone and tenor of your arrogant and inappropriate post, that nothing, not the economy, not the looting of our treasury,not the absurdly titled “War on Terror” not any of the progressive agenda items you angrily type, takes precedence over the restoration of the rule of law.

How you appear to make such an ass of yourself in such a short little post like that one is truly astounding. How you can state, with absolute certainty, who a fellow poster cast his/her ballot for sort of negates your value to these proceedings.

As to the article in question and my opinion of this rancid decision by our President, well, there have been good decisions and bad ones and this particular one is pretty bad, really, really a poor action by a constitutional lawyer. I just haven’t a clue as to his motives or methods.

The military Commissions Act was horrible when it was originally passed and it still is.
There was a detailed analysis done back in 2006 which still pertains today.
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2006/09/text_of_the_law_professors_letter_against_the_bushmccain_torture_bill.html

The rules put forth strip away the rights of accused, basically setting aside all progress made toward a rule of law that we have traversed since the writing of Magna Carta in 1208.

Obama is continuing to lead the country down the path entered by G. W. Bush.

As someone that worked hard to get Obama elected, I feel absolutely betrayed. I took that man at his word, he would restore the rule of law and reinstate the constitution. Man do I feel duped. He has continued in the footsteps of every assault on our rights started by Bush. Sec. of Defense Robert Gates said a few days ago that around 100 of the detainees at Gitmo can’t be charged or released. That’s not America. America doens’t hold people without trial or charge. That’s what the fascists and communists countries did. Something we beemed with pride to the rest of the world, that we did not do. One little terrorist attack, and we throw everything we believed out the window. Now Obama had the choice to restore the Constitution or follow in Bush’s footsteps. Obama the “Constitutional” lawyer choose to follow Bush. You better hope we don’t get attacked again, because whatever limited rights we still have in this country are going to be gone. You can thank Obama for that.