I worked in the Ren Cen and saw them come thru the tunnel EVERY day. Its a right ?? all I can say is I had some friends go to Canada for elective surgery and the clinics were filled with folks paying for procedures. Think that you have been reading too many liberal polls

mandinka—you know, thats funny, because I lived in Detroit for years , off and on,with my father, when he worked at Wayne State University, and noticed no such ting…maybe youre looking for it. You dont need “insurance” in those countries…its considered a human right.

Windosr is SOUTH of Detroit, as you must know, and, perhaps it is just closer…but, its obvious that you wil believe as you like to believe until the day you die.
I was a teenagesr , though, and do remember my father taking me over the border to go out at night,—he didnt want me walking arund Detroit alone at night. What was the murder rate in Windosr, maybe one? What was it this year in Detroit?

Its no good getting approved for a pacemaker in 3 days if you cant pay for it—-they’ll just let you die, if you cant. I have had family and friends who have been turned down or bankrupted by ths uS system…you can get it soon, IF YOU HAVE CASH.

and, I doubt your “stats”...the insurance industry loves people like you—theyd probably pay you—they do everyone else, except doctors and patients.

Dear Delly did you have us med insurance?? I’ve lived in detroit, and Daily, daily watched the ambulances come over for acute care. If you have a cold or a hangnail the coverage is great but have a MEDICAL issue wait in line. The average wait in Britain for a pacemaker is 3 (three) weeks here its same day. As usual we have no nothing liberal squawking here.. a few years back we had a political party you could have joined it was the Wigs and its mantra was “the know nothings”

I have had medical care in Canada and thats bullshit.

I also did work study in Europe—i was treated in three countries. It was immediate, free and excellent.

Purple wolf I’m a native American so I really don’t have to ask anyone permission. As for providing Europe medical care we also provide free care to Hamas a terrorist organization.
Since you lived in Flint then you know that Canada’s medical system is broke when it comes to delivering care and exports there people her.
I have no problem providing medical care to those who pay taxes however since 50% of our “citizens” don’t then paying for healthcare should be there responsibility since they are contributing nothing to society

BaucASS, making an ass of himself again..

Senate Committee on Finance
May 5, 2009
Hearing on “Expanding Health Care Coverage”

The opening of the hearing was disrupted by a passionate protest from the audience…

Person from audience: (at end of the protest)... We need health care now! Put single payer on the table now!

Sen. John Kerry: Is there anyone in the audience who didn’t come to…

(Laughter)

Sen Max Baucus: Let me say this. I think I speak for everybody on the committee and everybody in the Congress… deeply, deeply respect the views of all members of the audience and of all Americans who feel deeply about health care reform, especially those who are worried about single pay system, public option, who really do fervently believe that is the proper result. That is a view that many people have. It’s a view which I respect. There are other approaches to health care reform which also I respect. The whole point of this hearing and other hearings is to try to determine the best route, the best option, in determining how to best reform our country’s health care system. So for those of you who remain in the audience who may be inclined to stand up and, out of order, to state your views, I encourage you to not do so, because I want you to know that I personally care deeply about your views. I deeply respect your views. I hear what you say. I talk to a lot of people in my home state of Montana who have the exact same views. I represent 900,000 of the world’s best bosses, Montanans, and many of them have the very same view. But we aren’t going to get the best result here… the more we can have an orderly discussion of how we should best reform the health care system. So I want to say to everyone, especially those of you who might be inclined to stand up, that I urge you not to so we can proceed with the hearing holding your views also deeply in mind as we proceed. Thank you.

LOL!! not…

If you have MONEY, in a Capitalist society, you will ALWAYS, (count on it) be able to BUY medical care, and, probably anything/anybody else you want

The privacy papers one has to sign upon seeing a new doctor, er medical treatment, etc., are one of the biggest scams done to the public. What privacy, as it is public knowledge for those who spy upon the public know more about you, true or false than you could ever imagine. I wonder if one refused to sign this worthless piece of paper if you would still be able to obtain medical care.
I changed my doctor to one from a different hospital, on the questionnaire you fill out with all your other information, one question stood out and seemed very out of place. It asked if you owned or had a gun in your home. What does that have to do with your medical care unless you are mentally unstable, schizophrenic, bi-polar, depressed, drug abuser, postal or some other condition that might make one have a reason to use a gun. This is just another way for big government to try to find out more about its citizens, as if they didn’t have enough already.

Rather than some people, like mandinka here on TD, who worry about paying for medical services for some who may not be able to afford the minimum care they might need, he would be more constructive if he were to take that time and see just how much waste this government really accumulates by spying on it’s citizens, waging illegal wars, corporate welfare for the hyper-rich friends of the politicians, money spent undermining the control of other countries just to start with. Maybe he would complain less if he opened his eyes and mind instead of talking about things he knows nothing about.

<i

Suppose we have a situation where a rest of the world ROW nation is overcrowded, and it has a very corrupt government and economy where the citizens are disregarded. Suppose some of the citizens leave the country to invade another country because the country of interest, COI, has lax enforcement of its laws. Because the pressure its populous is off the ROW nation, the corrupt political economy of the ROW nation is able to remain unchanged. Did this improve the world in the ROW nation in anyway?

You have the right to refuse medical care because the U.K. HAS a National Health Service.

I never said I lived in the UK.

We here in the U.S. can’t refuse what we don’t have. If you have a severe medical illness, you can get treatment for it if you wish, or you can refuse treatment.

Is that a real choice if government can snoop on you through the healthcare system? Suppose you were injured in a way that was political in some way, but perfectly legal politically before certain laws were passed that did took away government acknowledgment of your rights. Do you remember the crack mothers were too scared to get prenatal care because some states had laws where hospital staff had to report a mother’s abuse of the fetus/midterm pregnancy to law enforcement? Suppose I was injured by police by protesting outside a free speech zone, and yet the police at the time were too busy too catch me. Still I may have sustained a concussion from a rubber bullet or such. Under tighter terrorism laws I could be ratted on by hospital personnel if I were honest about how I was injured.

You’re more concerned about your wants than about our needs. You have the option of getting health care even if you can’t pay for it, we don’t. Nobody is stopping you from refusing that care if you don’t like how it is given. But most of us can’t get it at all under any circumstances.

I want my privacy. I don’t want my medical records to become a database for the government. I don’t see free healthcare as much of a choice if my data can be shared with other agencies. So I am antisocial for questioning this largess?

And here I though Americans were selfish and self-centered. We can’t hold a candle to you.

I’d rather not get into petty tribalism.

Paracelsus, yes, overpopulation is not only possible, in an ecologically nonviable species like our own it happens regularly. I believe that’s why England, Spain, and other countries started their imperialist expansions, because they had overpopulated and ran out of room at home.

You have the right to refuse medical care because the U.K. HAS a National Health Service. We here in the U.S. can’t refuse what we don’t have. If you have a severe medical illness, you can get treatment for it if you wish, or you can refuse treatment. You have a choice. Millions of Americans have no choice. Even those with insurance can find their medical claims denied by the insurance companies and be unable to get needed medical treatment.

You’re more concerned about your wants than about our needs. You have the option of getting health care even if you can’t pay for it, we don’t. Nobody is stopping you from refusing that care if you don’t like how it is given. But most of us can’t get it at all under any circumstances.

And here I though Americans were selfish and self-centered. We can’t hold a candle to you.

All illegal aliens off Turtle Island! Colonialist invaders are inherently incapable of learning social responsibility.

Is it at all possible to have too much immigration into the United States? More succinctly, is it possible for the United States to be over crowded with human beings?

At present we really don’t have much in the way of privacy protection, and what does exist is more in theory than in practice, but we also don’t have health care.

If you were to get the government healthcare implemented as you wish, some would still be deprived of healthcare because they would fear the government. I already fear my own doctor who insists that if he suspects that I have a condition like high cholesterol or depression, then I must comply with his orders or he will refuse me further services. I really don’t feel like telling him much. If I live in a police state I might forgo medical treatment because I do no want to be forced by the health service to do some sort of regimen. I would probably refuse service. So getting subsidized health care without my privacy is of no use to me.

Issues on Privacy and Healthcare

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2706/pub_detail.asp

Many of Labour’s laws do not exist to protect the individual, only the state. For example, the police can photograph anyone, but it is now illegal to photograph a policeman since February 16, 2009. One of the Labour government’s numerous intrusive laws is the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA for short). This law was introduced to allow agencies to share information, to prevent or expose serious criminal or terrorist activity.
When the RIPA act was first introduced, it allowed surveillance of individuals to be carried out, and information shared between only nine agencies. Now, at least 792 agencies, including the NHS are allowed to spy on individuals and to share information with each other. The RIPA laws are being used by local councils to carry out surveillance on individuals for reasons as petty as dogs fouling footpaths.
And where does this leave the NHS? The National Health Service, originally designed to “reform health care” and make a healthier society, now has trusts that are actually providing guidelines on how to conduct surveillance of individuals. One senior individual in the NHS’ “counter-fraud service” was recently reported to have given written permissions for those under him to carry out any action “which might be deemed [covert] surveillance.”
The UK government has introduced more laws which allow patient’s data to be shared between agencies, such as the Mental Capacity Act 2005, where decisions affecting the treatment or care of people with limited mental skills can involve sharing “confidential” information with other individuals with no connection to the NHS. My doctor was acting under this act, ostensibly on behalf of my mother who was also his patient, when he discussed my details with others.
The latest planned abuse of patients’ data by Gordon Brown’s government is contained in the proposed “Coroners and Justice Bill.” Clause 152 of this act allows confidential medical records to be shared with other government departments and even sold on to private companies, such as insurance businesses. Is this what you want in your country?

***********************

Question: How do we provide government funded health care without government violations of privacy?

Most libertarians I know are good hearted people. I don’t want to get into name calling.

Mark: Megwitch! Thank you in Ojibway for your support of Turtle Island and her people. The first welfare line in this country was when the indigenous people fed the pilgrims. We consider all people as relations, a common saying in Indian country referring to all people is “all my relations”. Unfortunately some forget that at one time, everything was shared by a tribe, everyone was taken care of. Those unable to care for themselves were taken care of by others in the community,somewhere this lesson had been lost.

In the Bible, God calls them hypocrites in the New Testament,this is a fitting title for far too many out there who claim otherwise. 

The best definition for: The Republican Axis of Evil: fear, hate and ignorance.

Parcelsus, with single-payer you don’t get health care from the government, you still get it from doctors, but the government can’t divert money to insurance companies instead of health care, the way Obama’s plan would do.

At present we really don’t have much in the way of privacy protection, and what does exist is more in theory than in practice, but we also don’t have health care.

I know a Libertarian who lives in subsidized HUD housing. That’s not something people can get automatically—they have to apply for it. So PurpleWolf is correct. Many Libertarians, conservatives, corporations, politicians, and rich people, oppose things for others that they are all too happy to accept for themselves. Corporate welfare is acceptable because it is much more expensive than individual welfare. Health care for politicians is acceptable because it costs much more than health care for individuals would.

My definition of conservative/libertarian is selfish, uncaring, and politically opposed to Christianity. Yes, a lot of them claim to be Christians, but they always act so as to treat others in ways they themselves would not wish to be treated and to treat the least amongst us as they would not treat those better off. Maybe hypocrite sums it up nicely.

All illegal aliens off Turtle Island! Colonialist invaders are inherently incapable of learning social responsibility.

My main concern about health care from the Feds is that this is the same government that tortures, that violates the Bill of Rights, that conducted involuntary medical experiments on the American people and that enters into illegal wars. Do we want health care from a corrupt government? If government was run by saints then I would say fine let’s get some government health care. But it is very easy for something that was once a service from government to become an despotic demand that you do things as ordered. I see child protective services as something that began as a service but then morphed into an authority with force of law to do such things as experiment on the babies of crack mothers with dangerous anti-viral drugs. Many of them would have lived without the “medicines” to full adulthood. Some parents are forced to drug their children with amphetamine type drugs by the CPS under pain of their children becoming wards of the state. Given the recent flu epidemic, a government health service could have more power to forcefully vaccinate the population with dangerous and unproven inoculations. The intelligence and policing services could have easier access to medical records under data sharing arrangements much like those accessed from Health and Human Services and the Department of Agriculture in the welfare to single mothers. Psychiatric records would be more easily accessed by government for who knows what. As it is now many counselors in the mental health area keep scanty and abbreviated records in light of the Patriot Act and the non-rights to privacy of the HIPPA Act. HIPPA as it stands now, only guarantees privacy to the patient from the family, but is like a hospital gown in regard to government. Such a policy is wonderful for covering against negligence charges if the patient is not able to speak or communicate due to medical malpractice, but it does little to protect the patient against say the FBI. I would love to get single payer healthcare, but I wouldn’t want it from a fascist or Stalinist government. I suppose I would give a libertarian point of view on this.

mandinka: Well the last time I checked,I was still 100% female,sorry dude to burst your bubble.You seem to have no problem footing the bill for those whose incomes are more than well able to afford the best medical coverage their money could buy,but choose to let the taxpayers do it for them instead,like politicians who receive full benefits after just 6 years of public service.Since you didn’t answer that part of the comment I left earlier,you must agree with it,otherwise you would complain about that also.Some Republicans have stated that medical coverage is not a given right like food,clothing and shelter and that because the poor may not be able to afford medical care,tough.Nice attitude from the same groups who claim they are so “Christian”.It is well documented that women pay higher insurance rates for lesser coverage that their male counterparts.Don’t believe it,check into it.But then again you,no doubt,don’t spend much time,if any,doing research,you just rant about it.I am not thrilled about the illegals,especially the ones who came here and brought all their diseases with them starting in 1492.So unless you are of American Indian heritage,your ancestors were no doubt, illegals also,in my ancestors eyes anyway.Even if these illegals were not getting free medical coverage,your taxes will not go down.Do you also begrudge the elderly and disabled medical coverage,even if they or their spouse did at one time in their lives pay into this very same system? Will you deny all medical coverage you may be entitled to,if and when you might need it,or are you well off enough to never need Medicare?Did you know that America still subsidizes medical care in Germany and many other countries as well,providing them with much better coverage that we do not even have here for our own people?America also covers the cost of medicine for other countries who have price controls on their medicines to assure that big pharmaceutical companies make the big bucks?True fact.

As for Michael Moore’s films,books:I have lived in Flint-the same one as in “Roger and Me and Sicko”.It is much worse off now than when his 1st film was released.So,yes I feel I have more insight into what is going on in America from this part of the country than you do.By the way you talk,you must not have to worry about paying for your life expenses.

Did you also partake in the “Tea Party Festivities”?

As for the SpongeBob comment,you must spend a lot of time in front of the idiot box,also called a television,since you seem so well informed about this childrens cartoon show and it’s excellent and informative sea life contents that you totally enthralled with. 

From your comments,you probably are a conservative* plant and perhaps you are only writing what you do to stir up hatred onto other people.I really do feel sorry for you.Your heart must be very small and cold,you show no empathy for those less fortunate than yourself,you are to be pitied.

*Conservative:small,petty,miserly,narrow minded,mean,cruel,cold hearted,stingy,aka.mandinga
Websters Dictionary definition of the word conservative.

Couldn’t agree with you more Delly

torture is returning to this thread and finding epidemic ignorance

fadel, torture is only in the eyes of the beholder all i read was a normal day in the military. a faster and better solution would be to bury bombers remains with pigs that would fix the situation over night

I grew up in a farming community..I knew where meat came from…it doesnt come from there anymore…if people knew how meat is processed now (with the advent of factory farming), the meat industry would go out of business..the way animals were raised when/where I grew up was so radically different from the subsidized greed we see today, as to make it unrecognizeable.

People have a right to know where their food comes from and how it is processed. They have a right to know what is in their food,and, who had to suffer, and, how much, to produc it. If you dont want to know, dont look and lie to yourself.

Just don t act surprised when new diseases seem to appear out of nowhere.

The following article suggests that there are more pressing issues than the distraction scare created by the Swine Flue. In light of this, one might be led to believe that this hysteria is artificially created to distract from more pressing and serious issues that must be addressed!
====================
It’s The Flu People!
By Timothy V. Gatto

http://www.countercurrents.org/gatto040509.htm

There are more pressing problems than the swine flu virus. There is the question of whether the Bush administration will get away with torture. There is the fact that the Israeli Defense Force used white phosphorus in their recent genocidal foray into Gaza (which our government aided and abetted in). There is the use of depleted uranium sickening veterans and their families along with people that live in Iraq, Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia

Do you know who your friends and who your enemies are?

Top Ten Enemies of Single Payer

Those who profit from our suffering are the real enemies of the American people.

Dr. Paul Farmer, Professor of Medical Anthropology at Harvard Medical School, in his 2005 book, “Pathologies of Power,” quotes from a Zapatista communique of January 6, 1994:

“Some ask why we decided to begin now, if we were prepared before. The answer is that before this we tried other peaceful and legal roads to change, but without success. During these last ten years more than 150,000 of our indigenous brothers and sisters have died from curable diseases. The federal, state, and municipal governments’ economic and social plans do not even consider any real solution to our problems, and consist of giving us handouts at election times. But these crumbs of charity solve our problems for no more than a moment, and then, death returns to our houses. That is why we think no, no more, enough of this dying useless deaths, it would be better to fight for change. If we die now, we will not die with shame, but with the dignity of our ancestors. Another 150,000 of us are ready to die if that is what is needed to waken our people from their deceit-induced stupor.”

During those same ten years, of course, more than twice as many Americans died because they could not afford medical care, but most Americans do not think of other Americans as their brothers and sisters.

Farmer himself writes, “It is my belief that the liberation theologians, in advocating preferential treatment for the poor, offer those concerned with human rights a moral compass for future action. A preferential option for the poor, and all perspectives rooted in it, also offers a way out of the impasse in which many of us caregivers now find ourselves: selling our wares and services only to those who can afford them, rather than making sure that they reach those who need them most. Allowing ‘market forces’ to sculpt the outlines of modern medicine will mean that these unwelcome trends will continue until we are forced to conclude that even the practice of medicine can constitute a human rights abuse.”

In “Pathologies of Power,” Farmer documents how outbreaks of diseases such as multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis among the poorest of the poor and in prisons, threatens everyone in the world, including the rich. Think about it. Guards who work in prisons go home to their families, shop in stores, travel, and do the same things that other people do. When they are exposed to infectious and drug-resistant diseases, they cannot help spreading them to the general population. Most diseases have incubation periods and it is impossible to know that somebody is ill and has infected others until the symptoms develop. That’s why preventative medicine and medical for all is essential for everyone.

I know that the wealthiest believe that they are safe, but who is tending their children, who is cooking their meals, who is washing their dishes, who is serving at their tables, who is doing their gardening? Certainly not other rich people. If the least among their servants lacks health care, they are endangering the greatest amongst themselves—and for them, that doesn’t mean some distant deity, it means their very own selfish selves. And all the rest of us whether we think of ourselves as brothers and sisters or we are full of sectarian hatreds—viruses cannot distinguish between right and left, Moslem and Jew, white and black, Mexican and American—viruses see us all only as hosts.

Interestingly, viruses, cancers, and other diseases, often treat humans with no more respect than humans treat our own habitat, the earth. Just something to ravish, destroy, and lay waste to.

Thank you, Paracelsus.

Everything else that troll posts is an easily disproven lie also. Must be a government operative who can lie all they want, like Bush did, and always get away with it.

I wonder why people here don’t simply report comments posted by trolls and get them banned. We can get all the hate and lies we want from the mainstream media and we really don’t need that stuff here.

At the moment the trolls seem to be outnumbering the intelligent commenters, and I may leave TruthDig just to get away from troll garbage, which would mean that the trolls would have succeeded.

I prefer to read and post to sites that moderate comments and do not allow trolls, like MediaLeft.net

You’ll notice that no matter how many times this liar’s lies are proven to be lies, it just keeps posting more lies. What a waste of bandwidth.

@ madincka

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaughter.html

Upright restraint may provide the additional advantage of improved bleed out because the animal remains calmer and more relaxed. Observations indicate that a relaxed, calm animal has improved bleedout and a rapid onset of unconsciousness. Excited animals are more likely to have a slower bleedout. The use of a comfortable upright restraint device would be advantageous from a religious standpoint because rapid bleedout and maximum loss of blood obeys the Biblical principle of ‘Only be sure that you eat not of the blood: for the blood is life.’ Devarim: 12:23).”

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/rabbinate_uruguay_petition

During an October 2007 undercover investigation inside a South American slaughterhouse, PETA’s investigators discovered that shocking abuse was taking place during the kosher slaughter of cattle. The slaughterhouse is located in Uruguay, a leading exporter of kosher meat to both the United States and Israel.

The abuse was especially horrific because the “shackling and hoisting” method of inversion was used, which causes cattle severe pain and fear. The following is just some of the cruelty that was documented inside the slaughterhouse:

For what it’s worth, I think some Jews are open to some criticism. It shouldn’t have to be a paranoid life or death issue. There are even many Jews who are giving up circumcision. Imagine a Jewish sect that does not circumcise. The number of converts could be amazing!

purple man, If Mikey Moore is your example of a truth teller I have 1 even better its sponge bob he has all kind of movies about sea life really good stuff.
As to health care and who pays I noticed that Truthdig hasn’t posted an article about BO spending $20M to bring Hamas terrorists from Gaza to settle here. They get free healthcare, plane ticket, housing food and education no grumbling??
Healthcare coverage here is either free or insurance. We have 15 million illegals all getting free healthcare everyday. Think what we could do for our own citizens if this expense was removed from their backs!!!

deli you were disgusted with what goes on at the meat processing plants just how did you think meat was processed?? If you truly want to be sickened watch what happens when cattle are killed for Kosher meat. I knew many cattle ranchers who REFUSED to sell their cattle because of the way they are treated. You know what I have never seen PETA or any other tree hugger documentary ever done on Kosher processing,,, wonder why??

Mark, forcing someone to pay taxes for something they don’t believe in..god point since 50% of the voters in this country don’t pay taxes than that means they should not be allowed to vote, as the laundry mat says no tickee no washee

Paul, excellent comment and I agree completely. The website to watch Sicko free online is:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396&ei=9wjmSb3OMp2wqAOL_o25Dw&q=sicko

Or a shortened version:

http://tinyurl.com/d2b6g7

Paul wrote:

“I think some people are very afraid that others might hear the truth about “socialized medicine” as reported in Michael Moore’s documentary “Sicko.” (Not that Obama is proposing “socialized medicine” of course.) I was particularly struck by the history of socialized medicine in the United Kingdom, where a consensus formed in the wake of their terrible experience as aerial bombing victims in WWII—the equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for how many days?

What we have here in America, compared to what is available in the rest of the world, is simply indefensible. We can make great improvements and still reserve choice of doctors and private insurance coverage. As Moore points out, in the UK doctors still make a very good living. Fear and ignorance are our big enemies.

Some of the posters here are making my point, I think, about the need for greater education. If “Sicko” is already available free online, we need to get the word out about the website. Billboards would be good, as would a simple flyer handed out at any “tea party”-style rallies.”

Of course the new findings might just be disinformation designed to protect NAFTA and the factory farms from criticism.

When the government says one thing one day and then says the opposite the next day, it is hard to know which lie we’re supposed to believe.

Another glimpse into the extent of our ignorance about this epidemic is here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124113696409275445.html

Now the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is saying that the swine flu may have begun in California with patients who had never visited Mexico or had any contact whatsoever with pigs.

Should we start calling it the California flu?

There’s some old saying about ‘he who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool, but he who knows not and KNOWS that he knows not, is a wise man.’ Since we apparently know that we know less than nothing about this epidemic, we must all be geniuses. 

purplewolf—There was another program on sundance, about workers being recruited to come here from Latin Americas, and being put to work in slaughterhouses…usually at the “guts table”...I literally threw up.(They didnt even let us see this in An Science/Ag-Bus.) I couldnt belive that that is what I had been eating all of my ife…I wish I could remember the name of it…a lady and her husband came here, and, he went to work in a slaughterhouse and lost his arm, so she had to go to work in it…I am not a vegan, nor am I a strict believer in vegetarianism. (it is probably healthier, and, meat uses too many resources…) But, the way we are “farming” is immoral, unsustainable and disgusting. We need to cut the “farm” (agr-business) subsidies and feed the world in a more sustainable way!

When they showed the videos of “downed cows” during the Senate Hearings, I was disgusted, too, but, I thought, “if they only knew how much worse than that it gets”! “Downed cows” being fed to humans is a fairly new phenomenon, legally, but, stuff like this has been done for years…they are full of hormonres, drugs, I could go on and on…the saddest part may be that dairy cows are “under human care” (if you could call if that)for so much longer that they “trust” people…so the torture is all the more barbarous..I dont mean to depress you, it is depressing me…I grew up in a rural community…

KDelphi: Another documentary film shown on Sundance channel:“Our Daily Bread”, all subtitled, shows how food is grown, raised, harvested and/or slaughtered. I could not take watching the whole film in one sitting. It was obscene how fast a whole cow goes from being alive one minute to a matter of a few minutes later is already cut up into several larger pieces. This documentary also showed migrant workers hunched over machines moving in a crouch cutting head lettuce and packaging it into a slow moving machine in front of them to hold the produce for shipping.

To Mandinka: It is fine for those well off repugs who never have to worry about paying the bills, putting food on the table, or anything else dealing with money matters and daily survival, to criticize Michael Moore. You must fall into that category or else you are just another brainwashed talking head who knows nothing of what he speaks. I have read most of Michael Moores books as well as watched most of his documentaries. Are you aware that Michael Moore has research people,lots of them, to check out all the facts, for and against something and to ascertain that it is truthful and accurate, something the Bush years and administration, which it is obvious you are beholden to, never did. In fact they were the main manufacturers of lies, openly admitted, finally to the public as to getting America embroiled in the illegal was in Iraq as well as other lies told to the public about other things done during the Bush years. Yet, you have the ignorance to defend them(right-winger party) and refuse to acknowledge reality and truth when all you have to do is look at reality and if you still have doubts, research what you think is false and actually find out for yourself if your beliefs are true or not. But wait, you are of the “right wing dumb them down group”, so perhaps you are semi-literate and like G.W., do not understand what you see or read. Remember this article is titled,” Combating Epidemic Ignorance”, of which you certainly are a current member. And if you are against “socialized medicine”, just what do you think of the health care that these politicians receive along with their jobs, full benefits for life after 6 years of service-mostly to themselves and their rich friends, the best taxpayer money can buy, so why do you feel that those of us footing the bill for these over-paid polished criminals do not deserve at least a minimum level of medical care that we pay for for the rich while we cannot even afford the cheapest medical coverage available to the average working person?

Guntotinsquaw writes, “Mark E. Smith—Some of us don’t agree with socialized medicine and no I don’t think it’s communist, it’s socialism. Yes every other country has it, but we are the only country that is ruled by the people.”

We are? That’s news to me.

Can we vote directly for President and Vice-President the way that people in many other countries can, or can we only vote for the slate of Electors of their political parties, who are the only ones who can cast direct votes for our leaders?

Can we, by voting, directly remove or impeach our leaders in the White House and Congress for malfeasance, the way that people in many other countries can do, or do we have to go begging and whining to Congress because our Constitution says that Congress alone has the power to impeach, not the people? How can you call somebody your representative if you don’t have the power to fire them?

Is the popular vote here the final say, the way it is in many other countries, or can Presidents be sworn in even before anyone has finished counting the popular votes, as happened in 2000 and 2004 here?

90% of Americans angrily opposed the bailouts. If we the people rule, why did the bailouts still go through?

Guntotin: “You may want it but to force me to pay for it goes against everyhing this country is based on.”

I see. So you were consulted about the bailouts and you WANTED to pay for them and weren’t forced to against your will like the rest of us. Interesting that you would be in that minority 10% who favored the bailouts.

Guntotin: “To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which He disbelieves and abhors is sinful. If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny.”

I agree. I don’t think that the government should have decided to allow genetically-modified foods or medicines that killed people and were only later removed from the market because they had been approved by the FDA without having been adequately tested in the first place. I think that was tyranny, and it happened right here.

We have the most expensive health care system in the world, we all pay for it in one way or another, and we do NOT have the best health care system in the world—far from it. Think of it this way, Gun. Suppose you want to buy a sack of beans and I’m a bean farmer. You can buy that sack of beans directly from me for five dollars. But the government says that I’m not allowed to sell the beans directly to you and that for our own good, only a government approved and goverment subsidized bean seller can buy my beans and sell them to you, but of course they have to make a profit, so they buy the beans from me for five dollars, but sell them to you for ten dollars. That’s what happens when the government imposes a middleman. You pay more because the middleman has to make a profit. The health insurance industry is the middleman, so everyone here is paying more for medical care than we would without the middleman. Socialized medicine eliminates the middleman. So the only reason anyone would be against socialized medicine is if they prefer to pay more for medical care. That’s your choice, but I doubt if you would make the same choice if you really understood it.

Purple Girl- Agree! Do you think that if they “knew” the science of it that the workers could afford to not just follow what they are told? Probably not.

A friend of mine’s mother worked in a slaugherhouse for many years. I also took course in Animal Ag, went to many slaughterhouses, factory farms, etc.

I cannot eat meat now—fish sometimes…if people only knew…many people threw up, passed out, etc.

There is a doc, “Death on a Factory Farm” that ran on HBO a few weeks ago…I couldnt watch the entire thing, and, saw worse…

It is cruel to the animals, and unhealthy for people.People had been complaining about Smithfield for years, but, when it is the only job you have, now that NAFTA has taken away your indigenous lands, you want to survive…that is the problem.

The Outbreak has everything to do with Substandard Animal Husbandry practices by Multinationals who fail to follow common sense hiring and management.
Big Ag has been failing at providing ANY of the claims they had made in the ‘80’s as to how Big Ag would benefit the Global Community. Food prices are well beyond the cost of living standard, animals are no better cared for, nor workers and Food Borne illeness and contamination has skyrocket in frequency, severity and geographics.
Our concerns over a safe food Supply and Public health Trumps profit margins.The US has numerous College and univerisities which provide high quality education to their Ag Grads, yet the Ag industry continue to utilize the cheapest and least skilled workers they can hire.Legislation must be enacted to assure the best trained professionals are the ones supervising food production and workers rights to fair labor practices and safety issues.We have allowed Big Ag to earn 21st century profits by running their operations like 18th century plantations.They not only abuse their workers, they assure they remain uneducated and beholden to them for their very survival. This creates not only a ‘slave’ class, but a dangerous ignorance to new public health concerns. Do you think the ones who scoop up downed Cows understand mad Cow disease? No.
Do you think they understand the intricacies of cross contamination? No. do they comprehend the implications of diseases jumping across zoological lines and the lack of immunity to such diseases in the human population. No.Let be honest Big Ag intentionally keeps them undereducated, otherwise they may have to increase their pay, disgard infected animals, maintain safe work envionments and infection control methods;Basically Show they actually care about the health and welfare of their workers, their product and the Global community. Such committiment and dedication takes money- which has an adverse effect on teir bottom line.
We have Fabulous Well educated and committed professional coming out of our schools of Higher educationof Ag- it’s time we Demand and legislate the Requirment Big Ag Hire them as full time staff and managers in all their facilties if they intend to sell products in our country. The world community would also benefit from such Requirements.

Propaganda against socialism while the right-wing uses socialism for the corporate elite capitalists of business, industry, finance and insurance.  Socialism would be to the benefit of the majority, if not taken over by right-wing insurance.  Michael Moore’s movies only bring out the true oppression of the majority by the right-wing fascists bankers and insurance lobbyists.  Now the fascist political right-wing is even propagandizing who the fascist right-wing really is, talk about combating propaganda’s epidemic ignorance, it is hard to know who to combat and how, if you have no idea who the right-wing is.  Here is a re-post May 2nd of an article about Homeland Security “ON GUARD FOR RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS”, as if political right-wing extremists are of the common population, average personnel in the military, when political EXTREMISTS are the REPUBLICAN PARTY’S ELITE & CORPORATE POWERFUL WEALTHY PLUTOCRATS, who use and abuse the military:  whathttp://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94803

Homeland Security leaders have to know that the REPUBLICAN PARTY is the RIGHT-WING of the POLITICAL SPECTRUM, and that RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS are powerful wealthy autocratic capitalist PLUTOCRATS; if not, then, Homeland Security is of no use to the nation as security at all. 

If any military personnel come home thinking they are the EXTREME RIGHT-WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, it is because some REPUBLICAN MILITARY LEADERS following the former EXTREME Bush administration have propagandized some of their military personnel to continue their PRIVATE RIGHT-WING war on the home front.  It is interesting that ONLY Homeland Security that originated with the EXTREMIST RIGHT-WING Bush administration is the ONLY branch of government putting out such propaganda.

If the right-wing gets away with this type of propaganda, then the common population will always be fighting themselves over race, etc., while the elite fascist right-wing just rob the country so that the average person will never get to have real health care, real security, real insurance or real anything.

WOW!!!  PROPAGANDA against socialism for the many while the right-wing uses socialism for the few corporate elite capitalists of business, industry, finance and insurance.  Socialism for the many would be a benefit to the health care of the majority, if not taken over by a few right-wing corporate insurance moguls.  Michael Moore’s movies bring out the oppression of the majority by right-wing fascists bankers and insurance moguls, etc.

Now the fascist political right-wing is even propagandizing about who the FASCIST RIGHT-WING really are, talk about combating propaganda’s epidemic ignorance,it is impossible to know how to combat oppression and tyranny if you have no idea who the RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS are; and it is hard to believe that could be possible, but here is a May 2nd re-post of an article about Homeland Security propagandizing about being “ON GUARD FOR RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS” coming home from the military, as if RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS are of the average personnel in the military, while Homeland Security, being a government organization, know the political EXTREMISTS are the fascist REPUBLICAN PARTY’S ELITE & CORPORATE POWERFUL WEALTHY PLUTOCRATS, who use and abuse the military:  whathttp://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94803

Homeland Security leaders apparently ARE a branch of the fascist REPUBLICAN PARTY’S RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS led by the powerful wealthy autocratic capitalist PLUTOCRATS; which makes Homeland Security of no use to the nation as security at all and President Obama could save the country a lot of money by getting rid of the whole organization. 

If any military personnel come home thinking they are the EXTREME RIGHT-WING of the POLITICAL SPECTRUM, it is because some fascist REPUBLICAN MILITARY LEADERS following the former EXTREME Bush administration have propagandized some of their military personnel to continue their PRIVATE RIGHT-WING war on the home front.  It is interesting that ONLY Homeland Security that originated with the EXTREMIST RIGHT-WING Bush administration is the ONLY branch of government putting out such propaganda.

If the fascist right-wing EXTREMISTS gets away with this type of propaganda against the people, then average people will always be fighting themselves over race, etc., while the elite fascist right-wing EXTREMISTS just continue to rob the country, and the average person will never be able to have real health care, the Lord knows the average person doesn’t have real auto insurance, fascist government only made a GREAT revenue stream for fascist insurance moguls, WHICH WILL NOT WORK FOR HEALTH CARE.

Mark E. Smith—Some of us don’t agree with socialized medicine and no I don’t think it’s communist, it’s socialism. Yes every other country has it, but we are the only country that is ruled by the people. You may want it but to force me to pay for it goes against everyhing this country is based on. “To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which He disbelieves and abhors is sinful. If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny.”

Mandinka I had to respond - “the differnce between whites and black on welfae is 1% even though the distribution is 40%. So if more whites than blacks are on welfare than you must live in a northern liberal city. since whites pay the vast majority of taxes it only seems fair that blacks take care of their generations -” The average welfare recipeint is a white single female with two children. To surmise that welfare= black is not backed by the facts and is rather narrow minded.

Mark—Its true. But he is one pathetic character.

KDelphi—he might deserve some sympathy if he was a merely a victim of epidemic ignorance, but he is deliberately trying to spread it and therefore, in my opinion, at least from a public health perspective, should be quarantined.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions if they are genuinely their opinions. But first they have to be capable of looking at something and forming an opinion about it. Those who prejudge things based on hearsay and try to promote their prejudices (pre-judgments based on hearsay) as fact, are merely promulgating the opinions of others (in this case without even citing the source of opinions he admits are not his own) and the corporate owned and funded mainstream media can propagate hatred, bigotry, and prejudice quite well without needing any help or sympathy from him or from us.

Mark—Because people are starting to feel kindve sorry for him…

“Mandinka,” while it may be the only thing that interests you, the size of his dick has nothing to do with the quality of Michael Moore’s documentary films.

You admitted that you criticized Sicko without having watched it.

But you claim to have watched one of Michael Moore’s films. Prove that for once since you’ve begun posting here you aren’t lying by stating the name of the film you watched and explain at least one scene in it that you found objectionable for any reason and why. Since you cannot, I expect you to respond with more ad hominem attacks.

My guess is you’re just jealous because Moore is so much better endowed than you are, and not just in the dick department, but also with brains, research skills, social skills, the ability to present logical arguments and back them up with facts, while all you can do is tell lies, call names, make personal attacks, and make judgments about things you haven’t seen and know nothing about.

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me, I watch one of his needle dick works. If you are so dumb to continue watching all I can say SHAME on you

Hippie4ever, why is “mandinka” allowed to continue FOX News-style blathering here on TruthDig?

My guess is that liberals are generally opposed to censorship and don’t report comments by trolls.

“mandinka” writes, “dear Mark, SICKO is a made up documentary, every thing that clown films is a joke with “0” intellectual attempt of discerning the truth.”

Well then, “mandinka,” certainly you can point to ONE THING in the film that isn’t factual and is made up.

Just one would be sufficient, you if you think that “every thing” in the film is made up, then you are welcome to point out as many errors of fact as you wish.

But of course you cannot point to even one, because you are a propagandist, you believe lies, you have never watched the film, you prejudged it the way you prejudge people and issues because you are an extremely prejudiced person.

Prejudiced people are those who prejudge.

You have made judgments about a film you never watched. Your judgments are as false as all the rest of your prejudices. You can’t even watch something and decide for yourself, you have to take the word of others, who probably haven’t watched it either, because their prejudices appeal to your closed, prejudiced “mind.”

But I’m not going to get into an argument with somebody who cannot bring up a single fact to support their false claims.

It is a fact acknowledged by our own government health organizations and all reputable medical establishments in the world that Americans have a shorter life expectancy, higher infant mortality, and worse health than citizens of England, France, Germany, Canada, and everywhere else that there is socialized medicine. Maybe you think the CDC, the NIH, HHS, and all the professional medical journals just made that up also. If Rush Limbaugh didn’t say it, you won’t believe it, and if that ignorant drug addict did say it, you’ll believe it.

Calling Michael Moore a clown is a personal attack, it is not a logical argument. Kindergarten kids can call names, but they can’t make logical arguments. If you are smarter than a five-year-old, stop calling names and say something that makes sense. Michael Moore is a documentary film maker and he documents everything he claims. You’re just a little kid calling names and you can’t document anything you say because you make it all up—actually you aren’t even capable of that, you just repeat what you’ve heard other bigots say.

Just point out ONE THING in Sicko that you don’t think is accurate and provide some evidence to substantiate your belief, and you’ll have great credibility here—even I will respect what you say.

But if you can’t back up your claims, you have no credibility whatsoever and nobody will ever take you seriously.

But you knew that before you began deliberately disrupting a liberal website with prejudiced and bigoted trollery. Your whole intention is to waste my time and everyone else’s.

FOX news is unfair or in error hardly… if you watch the pres on Wednesday and questions asked by the media that was the perfect time to yank those stations off the air, for intellectual malfeasance.
As for blow the shit in the air, walk a mile in NYC and see how much shit will fall on your shoulders. The sharks won’t come any where near there for fear of the plague

dear Mark, SICKO is a made up documentary, every thing that clown films is a joke with “0” intellectual attempt of discerning the truth. So go ahead and watch him to increase your knowledge, kinda reminds me of another film that would encapsulate your IQ and fat man “Dumb and Dumber”

I agree, hippie. Many people are calling this current alarm the NAFTA flu.

There’s a good article at Truthout:

Looking down from the plane, we watch as several of Smithfield’s farmers spray their hog shit straight up into the air as a fine mist: It looks like a public fountain. Lofted and atomized, the shit is blown clear of the company’s property. People who breathe the shit-infused air suffer from bronchitis, asthma, heart palpitations, headaches, diarrhea, nosebleeds and brain damage. In 1995, a woman downwind from a corporate hog farm in Olivia, Minnesota, called a poison-control center and described her symptoms. “Ma’am,” the poison-control officer told her, “the only symptoms of hydrogen-sulfide poisoning you’re not experiencing are seizures, convulsions and death. Leave the area immediately.” When you fly over eastern North Carolina, you realize that virtually everyone in this part of the state lives close to a lagoon.

http://www.truthout.org/043009S

Tens of thousands of drowned pigs were strewn across the land. Beaches located miles from Smithfield lagoons were slathered in feces. A picture taken at the time shows a shark eating a dead pig three miles off the North Carolina coast.

Someone should take Luter and throw him into one of his own cess pools with a ball and chain attached to his ankle for good measure.

I agree, hippie. Many people are calling this current alarm the NAFTA flu.

It seems that Smithfield Farms, the company that runs the squalid factory hog farm in Mexico where the swine flu may have developed, moved there after being fined for unsanitary conditions in the U.S., where it had been dumping hog feces in a river, because NAFTA allowed it to operate in Mexico without having to abide by U.S. sanitary regulations.

http://www.barrieadvance.com/barrieadvance/article/134856

So FOX goes on blathering about Mexicans bringing swine flu to America, when it was Americans who brought it to Mexico. Typical FOX.

Why is Fox Network allowed to continue broadcasting their garbage? The FCC laws require that stations serve a public interest, and it’s obvious that they have failed. Rather, they’ve been a public detriment, whipping up fear and hysteria, disseminating misinformation, advocating treason, and blather blather blather. We should collectively hold the FCC accountable for its lax oversight of the media in general, and Fox in particular. Yes I want an independent media and many points of view, but not this weird, neofascist, hysterical propaganda so extreme Goebbels himself would smile and nod his approval.

ROFL — Freudian typo below.

That should be read and write, not read and right.

Gawd I detest professional right-wing bloggers. That people would make a living sacrificing the lives of themselves, their children, their friends, their neighbors, and their fellow citizens to corporate profits just disgusts me.

But then we have lots of people who kill for a living, torture for a living—capitalism doesn’t care how money is made, just that money is made.

Oops. Sorry, “mandinka,” but when I posted my comment below I was so amused at your level of real or pretended ignorance that I forgot to include the definitions.

Willy Wonka is a fictional film. Fiction is made up. It isn’t true.

Sicko is a documentary film. Documentaries can’t be made up because everything in them has to be documented and proven. That’s why they’re called documentaries. They may have a point of view, but they can’t just make it up out of whole cloth like fiction.

Can you understand the difference?

If not, maybe someone with experience in special education could help me explain it to you.

And as for why you could probably get a job as a professional right-wing blogger, that’s because it is hard to find people who are dumb enough to believe right-wing lies but still smart enough to be able to read and right. And not everyone is willing to tell lies for a living.

Interesting that you can’t tell the difference between a fictional film and a documentary film. That might explain a lot.

Canada actually has a huge problem with uninsured Americans trying to sneak in to get free health care. Those ambulances you claim to have seen were probably returning sick Americans to their own country, because Canada won’t treat them—their socialized medicine is only for Canadian citizens who pay taxes to fund it. The middle and even upper class Canadians interviewed in Sicko won’t even visit American friends and family for a day without getting foreign insurance so as not to incur horrendous bills for things they can get treatment for at home without cost. Like the golfer who tore a tendon in his arm while visiting the U.S. and refused to have it treated until he got back to Canada, they all know what medical care here costs.

But in the documentary film Sicko which you can watch online for free just by licking the link, Moore doesn’t just interview Canadians, he also films an American woman who is considering marrying a Canadian just to get health care, and visits Canadian hospitals, clinics, and pharmacies, to see if they are inferior in any way, the same way he does in France, England, and other countries—always skeptical of what their citizens say and interviewing Americans who live there to find out the truth.

Well, maybe you’d better not watch the film. Even if you can’t tell truth from fiction, it could open your mind to reality and I’m sure that’s the last thing you’d want. There are literally thousands of people who are paid by the government, the health care industry, right wing think tanks, big pharmaceutical companies, and health insurance companies, to pose as ordinary (if not too bright) citizens and disrupt liberal blogs and websites with propaganda and lies. You can find ads for jobs doing exactly that if you do a web search. If you’re not getting paid for what you’re doing, it might be worth your while to check it out, as the corporate profiteers would find you a valuable asset.

Mark if you could sit thru SICKO and use it for your basis of our health care than I’ll watch Willie Wonks to get another point of view its probably more relevant and factual. Having lived in the North and seen the ambulances with patients coming from Canada I would surmise that there maybe a problem

As it happens I live in a southern city that has a reputation as a conservative bastion.

The reason we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world is because instead of paying directly for health care, the way most countries do, we syphone off trillions of dollars to middlemen called the health insurance industry. This industry does not provide health care, it just takes money from people and, in return, pays for the health care costs of as few of them as possible in order to maximize profits. Other countries where this expensive and useless middleman has been eliminated, have free or much cheaper health care, and their citizens have longer life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and less incidence of diseases in all categories than we Americans do.

There is no sane reason to pay people who are not doctors to decide whether or not you should get medical care. In most countries people go to doctors and the doctors make that decision.

If you watch Sicko you’ll understand that the insurance corporations are the most expensive factor in American health care, and also the most unnecessary.

Mark nice try the differnce between whites and black on welfae is 1% even though the distribution is 40%. So if more whites than blacks are on welfare than you must live in a northern liberal city. since whites pay the vast majority of taxes it only seems fair that blacks take care of their generations   as for ambulence chasers their frivulous lawsuits have cause all medical professional to order unnecessay tests and meds jsut to isnure that they aren’t sued. That accounts for over 10% of healthcare costs

“Mandinka” I don’t know where you live, but I live in a major U.S. city and most of the people on welfare here, including families with children, are white.

As for lawyers inflating health care costs, it is true that sometimes lawyers have won compensatory damages for people who had the wrong limb amputated, the wrong organ surgically removed, or because totally physically disabled from a prescribed medication, but there is a cap on damages so they can’t get very much. In not a single year that I know of, did the amount of damages awarded by the courts to victims of medical malpractice, come to a fraction of the amount of money that the executives of health insurance companies got as salaries and bonuses.

I like that poem, Fadel. Thank you for posting it.

Yeah, KDelphi. Isn’t it strange that there are still Americans who think of people who won’t accept their emails and act against their interests, as their representatives?

This is a poetic rendering of the Swine-Flue Hysteria, entitled,

        “The Voice of the Swine Family!”

Once upon the time,
We were among the early creatures of God;
Unmolested by man anywhere,
We roamed the spacious wilderness and open lands;
Two religions condemned our flesh as unclean to eat,
That was fine with us, since we were not sacrificed;
Then came the unwise so-called civilized man,
With his non-satiated appetite for flesh of all kind;
We were domesticated and raised in mass;
We were force-fed with chemically-modified feed of all type;
We started to artificially multiply,
Getting big and fat at the speed of light;
And as soon we reached the prime of our lives,
We were led, in mass, to man’s slaughter house after house;
Wrong was the treatment meted to us,
We complained to the One Who Created us;
He heard our complain and send us a virus-friend,
Through which we were to get our revenge,
Not only from the eaters of our flesh,
But also from hypocrite Muslims and Jews,
Who don’t eat our flesh,
Yet they love the money it brings!

Mark, I agree with your post on the physicians saying that the hog farms should bear the expense. Just as NAACP and Martin Kings family should bear the expense of all blacks on welfare since they condone and sanction their behaviour. Lets go after the root of all our problems, lets go after the trail lawyers for inflating healthcare expense

Mark E. Smith—Bravo..yeah, what he said to mike turner—-hey, are you my “representative” Mike Turner?? Why wont you accept emails from your constituents anymore?

Couldnt win as mayor, so bought a House seat…

Mike Turner: “this is where both parties live in ignorance…1st for anyone who has required hospital care, you know illegal immigrants come no where near generating tax revenue to foot the bills.”

Without the revenue from undocumented workers, who have Social Security (FICA) deducted from their paycheck but can never collect because they aren’t citizens, Social Security would have collapsed a long time ago. And anyone who has ever required hospital care knows that you have to provide identification and proof of insurance if you have any. Because undocumented workers can be deported if anyone learns that they aren’t citizens, most stay as far away from hospitals as they can.

Mike Turner: “America takes the loss. 2nd people from third world nations introduce new strains & new(old) diseases which have a multiplier effect on medical costs.”

America takes the profit. It taxes people who have no representation. The current swine flu epidemic, according to many experts, may be due to the squalid conditions and a U.S. company’s factory hog farm which it located in Mexico to save money, avoid paying U.S. salaries, avoid providing U.S. jobs, avoid paying U.S. taxes, and avoid having to abide by U.S. sanitation and workplace safety laws.

Mike Turner: “3rd Americans lose jobs to the children of immigrants who get educations largely paid for by American citizens.”

There are very few Americans picking grapes or doing other backbreaking field work, working as maids, gardeners, dishwashers, or any of the other jobs that fall to both documented and undocumented workers because Americans don’t want to do such heavy work for such low pay. Several meatpackers have responded to ICE raids that deported their undocumented workers by closing their plants in the U.S. and moving them to Mexico when they couldn’t find U.S. workers to take such dangerous jobs at such low pay rates, and many farmers have done the same thing, shutting down their farms here and getting land in Mexico to farm where they can find willing fieldworkers. Many undocumented workers are brought to this country by American factory and farm owners who send representatives to other countries to find workers.

(continued)

Mike Turner: “4th rather than toss out the despots in Mexico, Central American, it is easier to just come to the USA.”

If we’d stop overthrowing democratically-elected governments in Latin America, and supporting despots friendly to U.S. business interests, the problem wouldn’t exist.

Mike Turner: “5th, the sacrifices of American workers which resulted in high pay/benefits are DESTROYED by immigrants/ children who find lower levels of pay benefits in the USA much better than in their places of origin.”

Most job loss in the U.S. is due to white male corporate executives outsourcing jobs to wherever they can find cheaper labor. If immigrants wanted our jobs they’d stay home because that’s where our jobs went. When corporate executives outsource millions of American jobs to India, the Phillipines, Burma, China, and other places, millions here become unemployed. Where there are more people looking for work than there are jobs, it drives wages down. The aim of globalization is to force Americans to work for the same low wages as people in India and China, or to remain unemployed.

Mike Turner: “Then there are all the other legal & social sucking up/exhaustion of infrastructure money.”

We have the most expensive health care system in the world because we are the only developed country without a national health care plan. Our defense budget is greater than that of all other countries combined. Just a few years ago the Pentagon announced that it had “lost” (mislaid and could not account for in any way) 3.2 TRILLION dollars. If we had a fraction of the money that our government simply loses due to lack of oversight, we could have all the infrastructure we want.

Mike Turner: “All these shortsighted positions stem from the desire for greedy American’s to have immigrants do dirty work cheap.”

Very few American workers are greedy and very few can hire more than one or two people to work for them. It is the American EMPLOYERS, the CEOs of big corporations and agribusinesses who are greedy. U.S. business law states clearly that corporations have a fiduciary duty to their stockholders to maximize profits. Paying lower wages increases profits, so U.S. corporations are required by law to find the cheapest labor that they can in order to maximize profits. Those executives who can find the cheapest labor get the biggest bonuses.

Mike Turner: “The sad part is that while the Dems always favored liberal legal immigration…..the GOP abandoned its hard position on illegal immigration under that’s right RONALD REAGAN, creating the chaos threatening to turn the USA into California, then Mexico.”

The chaos began when Mexico was turned into California and the USA by means of an illegal invasion—a war of aggression just like the ones we’re currently waging in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. It was exacerbated when NAFTA allowed U.S. companies to flood Mexico with tons of corn below production cost, forcing millions of Mexican small corn farmers off their land because they couldn’t sell their crops when big U.S. corporations undercut them and drove down the market price.

But I think you know all that, as do all the people who are paid by right-wing groups to post lies to liberal blogs. That’s another typical waste of money, as everyone here knows better. But the right considers it a necessary expenditure for propaganda purposes, and nobody can stop them from spending their obscene fortunes scapegoating the poor.

this is where both parties live in ignorance…1st for anyone who has required hospital care, you know illegal immigrants come no where near generating tax revenue to foot the bills. America takes the loss. 2nd people from third world nations introduce new strains & new(old) diseases which have a multiplier effect on medical costs. 3rd Americans lose jobs to the children of immigrants who get educations largely paid for by American citizens. 4th rather than toss out the despots in Mexico, Central American, it is easier to just come to the USA. 5th, the sacrifices of American workers which resulted in high pay/benefits are DESTROYED by immigrants/ children who find lower levels of pay benefits in the USA much better than in their places of origin. Then there are all the other legal & social sucking up/exhaustion of infrastructure money.
All these shortsighted positions stem from the desire for greedy American’s to have immigrants do dirty work cheap. The sad part is that while the Dems always favored liberal legal immigration…..the GOP abandoned its hard position on illegal immigration under that’s right RONALD REAGAN, creating the chaos threatening to turn the USA into California, then Mexico.

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine says that factory hog farms are responsible for and therefore should pay the costs of the flu.

They’ve created an e-invoice you can use to bill Smithfield Farms. Go to this URL:

http://www.pcrm.org/

And click on the picture that says “Charge Smithfield. Pork producers should pay for swine flu.”

PCRM says, “The global outbreak of swine flu is growing day by day. Media outlets have raised the question whether the epidemic may have started in pig farms in Mexico run by a subsidiary of Smithfield Foods, the world’s largest pork producer.

The link to animal industries is undeniable. One-third to one-half of pigs on modern farms have antibody evidence of the H1N1 virus, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The reason: overcrowded pig farms create the perfect reservoir for this virus to replicate, creating new and more deadly strains. Once a pathogen emerges, it is spread by farm workers and the transport of livestock.”

Another must read is here:

Swine Flu: CDC Recommendations
CDC Recommends Tamiflu, Researchers Have Reservations
http://digg.com/d1q59c

This report quotes Dr. Mercola:

“This isn’t the first time the public has been warned about swine flu. The last time was in 1976, right before I entered medical school. I remember it very clearly. It resulted in a massive swine flu vaccine campaign. Within a few months, claims totaling $1.3 billion had been filed by victims who had suffered paralysis from the vaccine. The vaccine was also blamed for 25 deaths. However, several hundred people developed crippling Guillain-Barré Syndrome after they were injected with the swine flu vaccine. Even healthy 20-year-olds ended up as paraplegics. And the swine flu pandemic itself? It never materialized.”

On a serious note, Americans, disdainful of education, calling anyone educated the “elite,” and proud of their ignorance, will not rise to the level Conason wishes.

Illegal immigrants do impact the health/safety of America and it’s been going on for years.  This article by Dr. Madeleine Cosman sites many references:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Cosman/madeleine3.htm

I saw Amy Goodman pick a part Lou Dobbs with Dr. Madeleine Cosman’s remark of 7,000 lepers a year being illegal aliens. There had been 7,000 cases total over 30 years as reported by the federal government. I wish Dobbs had never used her as a reference for one of his stories. She is not even a medical doctor. Dobbs admitted to Dr. Cosman being a wack job. I saw the whole painful interview on DN!. She didn’t do the immigration restrictionist cause any favors.

Since my family arrived here in 1634 and tamed the wilderness, waves of riffraff have washed these shores:  Irish, Jews, French-Canadians, Germans, Swedes, Italians, too numerous to mention.  If you’d all go back where you came from, we Puritans could get on with making the world safe for church-goin’.

Just got an email from one of my Senators announcing that she has posted swine flu information on her website. The email also had a link where people could respond. This was my response:

Thank you for posting the information to your website and sending an email.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

Yesterday I reported for jury duty. The jury pool was in a large room with several hundred people and I was the only one wearing a mask. I also had brought hand wipes and hand cleanser, but I saw many people touching tables, chairs, elevator buttons, escalator handrails, doorknobs and other things without washing their hands. Many people were coughing and sneezing.

I’m concerned about people without health insurance as they are unlikely to be able to afford to visit an emergency room and will wait until they have infected many other people. At that point, if they are taken to a hospital by ambulance, the medical bills will put them in debt for the rest of their lives, if they should happen to survive.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

I’m also concerned about working people (I’m retired), who are unlikely to risk losing their jobs by staying home if they’re sick, and will infect their coworkers. School children cannot stay home until there is a confirmed case and their school is closed.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

Not health insurance. People don’t like to see a doctor when they have health coverage because they risk having their insurance premiums go up. So they would tend to wait as long as possible, meanwhile infecting many other people.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

Obama is fully aware that most Americans want single-payer, but he is in the pocket of the insurance companies and won’t even let it be discussed.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

I’m glad you’re posting information about how we are likely to die, but a bigger question is why our government doesn’t care about PREVENTING and TREATING medical problems, only about giving more money to the insurance companies. Health care is a right, not a privilege. Every other developed country in the world has socialized medicine.

WE NEED A SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH CARE PLAN.

Just because everybody in Congress is rich and can afford health care, is no reason that none of you care about your constituents.

WE NEED SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE.

WE NEED SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.

Stop the lies, stop the propaganda, and start caring about us. Or else stop pretending to be our representatives.
—————

But I guess there was more I could have said if I’d looked at the above article first. We do have to stop “free trade” agreeements and globalization treaties that don’t allow countries to set minimal health standards. We do have to stop factory farms. We do have to ensure that everyone in every country that any American citizen might visit has free health care, because we do not. No matter the cause or vectors of an epidemic, people need to be able to avoid infecting others and to get treatment as soon as they become ill.

The talking heads are going to be blaming anyone and anything they can, so that people won’t think about the fact that we are the only developed country in the world without a national health care plan, and that people in Communist Canada, Communist England, Communist France, Communist Germany, and most other civilized countries can get absolutely free health care.

I fully understand that Americans opposed socialized medicine because they thought it was Communist. Well, the rest of the world has adopted it. While we were celebrating the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the old Soviet Union, every major country in the world adopted socialized medicine for their citizens. If that’s Communism, it has taken over the world and we lost.

As some of the other bloggers have indicated, this epidemic, has much more to do with American corporations, and their disregard for Mexican Citizens, as well as their disregard for the safety of the public.

For decades giant agribusiness farms have used genetic engineering to modify pork, by inserting human genes in it to make it more lean, believing this practise to be risk free.

Mexican citizens have complained to their government about the giant hog farms near Mexico City run by Smithfield Foods, and it’s lack of sanitary conditions, polluting the air and water, and giant agribusiness forcing itself on Latin American Countries.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_17677.cfm

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/29/the_nafta_flu

It is indeed bizarre to blame this all on the GOP and “immigration”, when , in fact, some are calling this the NAFTA flu…(which was signed by Clinton…and CAFTA, and, a Dem is soon to sign, PAFTA)it is a direct result of the multi-natls factory farming…it is not “farming” as you would think of it, at all..“globalization” and “free trade” are NOT about “tolerance” and “compassion”—they are about the multi-natls profits and keeping wages low.

If we had an intl health care imperative, the spread of these viruses could be stopped in its tracks…

Teresa—I hate to break this to you, but, many people here in the late, great United States cannot afford a medical exam…I dont know how long it will take USAns to realize that everyone in the world has basic human needs, and, if we are to claim to be a moral society, all people have a right to them…

If a person cannot afford a dr, their child will remain ill, and , if they cannot take off work, their child will go to school or day care (if they can afford it)and it goes on and on…the regular flu kills 35,000 a year, and, a lack ofdecent health care kils 20,000 in the uS alone, and, many millions worldwide. As long as it is all about profits, it will continue.

F. William Engdahl is author of Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation (Global Rersearch, 2007, see below) and A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order (Pluto Press). His new book, Full Spectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order (Third Millennium Press) is due out end of May.

Apparently, I cannot give a website…

If America wasn’t ignorant, we would be the nation that we are today.  We are the greatest country on Earth, right?