Tom Edgar:

I am not an atheist.  I am a Christian, but religion has nothing to do with the deportation of Magahed.

Apparently Magahed comes to the USA and associates with Bomb Makers in the USA.  These bombs are not to make cavities in bedrock for septic tanks.  These IED’s are to kill US citizens.

If Magahed associates with US Moslims that make improvised bombs, then he poses a threat to all US citizens, including you and me.

Magahed should be deported.  Magahed should never be allowed return to the USA under any circumstances.

I have no sympathy for his parents.  They could have raised him to respect the lives of others.

Killing US citizens is not some teen-age prank.  It is some kind of Moslim inspired “Jihad” action supported by interpretations of the Quran (maybe 9.11).  Without the Moslim believers in this country, there would be no threat from Moslims to the lives US citizens in this country.

There would still be the US citizen deaths on the Highway system, and other systems.

mbfromhb:

Please refer to supernova below. Now THAT’S history, something useful to debate over. And notice the pretty puntuation and educated style. Try it after you’re done with the paper bag.

According to Alexander Scholch, a German-Jewish historian, the respective demographic of Palestine in 1850 comprised roughly 85% Arab-Muslims, 11% Arab-Christians, and 4% Jews.  Likewise Muslims were still a sizable majority in Palestine in 1922, while Jews were less than 5% of the population. Hence forth foreign emigration of Jews with little or no ties to the Middle East swelled their population to 35%. 

So Palestine may not be the “Muslims’ own land” but it certainly isn’t the Jews’ or Christians’ either.  It does belong mostly to the indigenous people of the Canaan, whose descendants are decisively Arab-Muslims, Arab-Christians, and Arab-Jews – per their respective demographic. 

And just to call a spade a spade, the notion of a “Jewish nationality” is absurd.  Nationality is where you were born, or perhaps for good measure, where your parents or grandparents were born.  Not what religion you practice!  Even more absurd is the notion of a “Jewish race.”  You never hear of a Christian or Muslim race, because your physical features ought not to dictate your belief in the supernatural… people of different races/ethnicities should be free to choose and practice whatever religion they want to, or none at all.

Alas, 60 years of Israeli occupation has delivered 2nd and 3rd generation “emigrant” Jews to Palestine whose rights-to-the-land no one can conscientiously take away.  But this does not diminish the gross injustice that was rendered to the displaced and subjugated indigenous Palestinian peoples 60 years ago and since, and indeed whose rights-to-the-land were so callously wrenched away.  So while it can’t be undone, let’s just at least admit that the Zionist implementation of “Israel” (perceived by many as the last outpost of Western Colonialism) was an ill-conceived idea from the start, the price for which the world is paying dearly in division, mistrust, death, and destruction…

<At what point in history did Palestine become the Muslims’ “own land”…>

Regarding Palestine (funny how all discussions of Islam & the West always end up here) the indigenous people of Canaan *are* the people of Palestine.  They have had a constant historical presence (of over four millennia) in the land that is now called, unashamedly, Israel.  Ironically Abraham’s ancestry too is from Mesopotamia, which is at the heart of Arab origins.  About 1500 B.C., it is thought, some Semitic people from Mesopotamia left and settled in Canaan , which was by then settled by other tribes including Hittites and Philistines (Greek “peoples of the sea” from Mycenae), alongside its indigenous people. 

A couple of centuries later the nomadic Israelites, or Jews as we know them, according to the Bible were led out of Egypt by Moses. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan.  Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that King David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan. 

Then, starting in 700 B.C., Canaan was controlled varyingly by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.  The Romans named the area “Palaestina” which was derived from Herodotus, who used the term “Palaistine Syria” to refer to the entire southern part of Syria, meaning “Philistine Syria.”  The Romans frequently put down Jewish revolts with brutal force, and in A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt.  Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until A.D. 300’s and then by the Byzantine Empire.  In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine. The population consisted of Jewish converts to Christianity, peoples imported by the Romans, and of course the indigenous people of Canaan who had inhabited Palestine continuously.

Subsequently in about A.D. 600 there was yet another transfer of power and Jerusalem was now controlled by the Caliph Omar who gave his protection to its inhabitants. From here on Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900’s, except for a brief lapse: the Crusaders, after breaking an alliance with the Muslim Fatimad rulers, invaded Palestine and captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099.  They slaughtered Jewish and Muslim defenders, forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem, and held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin re-conquered Jerusalem and allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local Arab population, indigenous or otherwise, gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of the rulers, just as they had accepted Christianity during the Byzantine rule of the past.

If Megahed was a natural born citizen, once acquitted he’d be free to go about his business.  Since he wasn’t, ICE proceeded to do what it does… toss out the dubious.  Tough sh#! for Megahed…. But it’s no different than what was done immediately after 9/11 where all immigrants from Muslim countries were asked to come in to “register” while immigrants from non-Muslim countries were not.  And any minor visa violations or over stays were enforced to the full extent (i.e. deportation) for Muslims, versus impartial leniency towards non-Muslim immigrants.  A lot of otherwise goodwill and patriotism towards the US was lost from honest folk of those parts of the world.  ‘Course this was just the beginning, life for the Muslim American has been unnerving ever since – marred with witch-hunt styled arrests, racial-profiling, and bigoted mass media prejudice.  Not to mention renditions orchestrated by the authorities, and the such…

mbfromhb:

What did I say in my previous posts that gave you the idea I didn’t understand history? I mean, it’s a stone cold fact that Bush and Cheney are responsible for every evil that humanity has had to endure for the last decade. What more is there to know??

You said, “the muslims were defending their own land… all the way back to jesus’ time.” You DO have a command of history, mb! I’m impressed.

At what point in history did Palestine become the Muslims’ “own land”, which had to be defended against invading Christians, Jews and Bush/Cheney? Weren’t Christians living in Palestine seven centuries, and Jews two millenia,(“indigenous” Semites all) before Islam arrived from western Arabia? (Wait, I know your answer to this one: “You’re a moron and a numbnuts, rfidler!”)

What existential threat did the eighth century Christian and Jewish “occupiers” of Palestine pose to Islam to justify such a “defensiveness” spread from Medina to the Maghreb, the Levant, Mesopotamia and Anatolia in little over a century’s time? Their message wasn’t “We’re here to offer some democracy and Starbucks,” it was “Submit or die.” Or do I quibble over mere dates and motivations? (Wait, I know your answer to this one, too- “mr christian, you’re an asshole.”)

“Islam” not “Muslim,” means “in complete submission to God!” by the way. And it’s the original Abrahamic religion? And Abraham, a Muslim, and Ishmael built the kabaa in the middle of a Muslim mosque? Really?! Who knew?! And, since Islam really means “in complete submission to God!” then the Crusader Popes and George Bush must be Muslims, because they will insist that they were submitting to “God’s will,” insh’allah!
You said, “...idiot bush running over to iraq and afghanistan…, like an elephant, these people never forget. this is why theres been a split in the following of islam, shia and sunni, that goes back to when the prophet mohammed died.” So, the Sunni-Shia split is also the fault of the crusaders and Bush/Cheney? Come on. Now you’re just showing off, smartypants.

Love your command of street language. And I hope you don’t LOOK like Bill Maher! Now there’s one ugly dude!

Now, blow into a paper bag for a few minutes and calm down. I’m worried you’re going to pass out. And try using the shift key when you write. It makes your syntax, such as it is, and your non-sequiturs easier to follow.

I’m not “mr christian” either, mister. I’m an atheist. And, wait a minute! I can feel my nuts again! Thanks for the history lessons, mb!

to rfidler:

        a bigot…nah!...not really sure, an idiot more likely and probably just the rudimentiary a**hole! first, i can tell you know nothing of history and haven’t bothered to read anything about the past in order to know what the ‘f’ your talking about. geez, who does that remind me of….oh!! the biggest idiot, liar and complete piece of sh**... bush!!!....
with cheney and the ‘cabal’!! which are perhaps the biggest traitors we’ve had in recent history.
anyways, you should first try and read the qur’an. ‘holy wars’ or in arabic, jihad, have always been declared and in response to being attacked. in history, its happened in their own land and goes all the way back to jesus’ time. god… i feel like bill maher talking to some moron…
it was the christian a**holes directed by the pope that started the crusades. the muslims were defending their own land. its just too damn bad that the ‘holy land’...where everything started was not israel…not some place in europe…not where your decendants that came over here on a boat to kick the indians in the a** but in PALESTINE! the cradle of all abrahamic religion and the start of civilization is in an area occupied by what became muslims…the indigenous people!! just like today with idiot bush running over to iraq and afghanistan…and idiot bush calling the invasion origianally a ‘crusade’ unfortunately, like an elephant, these people never forget. this is why theres been a split in the following of islam, shia and sunni, that goes back to when the prophet mohammed died. oh…and by way… mr. christian, abrahamic religion, means the religions that came about based on the stories of abraham and his decendants or “western religions”. what that means is with all this sh**,.. muslims, christians and jews, are extremely close in their beliefs. the qur’an verifies the words of the 2 earlier texts, torah which literally are the texts not tablets that moses brought down from mt sinai or the 1st 4 books in the bible and the al-injeel or the “gospels” or what you know as the old testament. and according to islam, jesus was the most heralded prophet. and at the time that abraham lived there were no christian, jews or muslims. but he lived his life in a muslim way. what the word ‘muslim’ means is “in complete submission to God!” thats why when you see muslims pray, that to be in complete submission the God is to have your toes, hands and forehead on the ground because that is as low or humble as possible in the eyes of God. so in essence, abraham was a muslim. now he and his 1st son, in their culture the 1st son is the most important was ishmael, not isaac, whoops?? a little kick to the christian nuts, actually established the 1st…yeah… the 1st not the 2nd, not the 3rd, but the “1ST” house or place of worship to GOD. YEAH.. our God…the same one…yeah..the the same christian God, the same jewish God, remember there’s only one and thats him, the one we all think of was built in the city of mecca. its called the kabaa! thats the original place to pray to God and thats in the middle of that huge mosque called al-majid al-haram. thats why all muslims all over the world face east, toward this location where abraham and ishmael built THE 1ST place of worship. now finally, and this is on the test meathead!, what the qur’an literally is, are the words of God or his islamic proper name, Allah…yea…he has a name.. numbnuts!!!

tom edgar:
I’m a bigot? Well that settles the argument I guess.
I didn’t say the 9/11 perps were Afghan, I said the plot was hatched from their soil- which is absolutely true. Yes 19 of 20 were Saudi or Egyptian- and all were Muslim.

Yes, Bush’s orders from God are scarey.

Nice trick, calling capturing enemy fighters “kidnapping” and then forming your agrument around that concept. You win. But only the word game.
By your lights, if the cops bust a guy robbing a Seven-Eleven, you’d call it “kidnapping,” unless he was a white male, then you’d call it “justice.”

Abortion foes call it “infanticide” and thereby put us on the defensive. But they misuse the word, as you misuse “kidnap.”

Name for me one person in Gitmo or any of the hundreds of millions of secret CIA/FBI run torture mills around the world who was “kidnapped” in the real-world sense of the word.

Rendition is NOT kidnapping. It’s moving a prisoner to a country where he can be properly tortured, since the US is prohibited from doing so. Of course to the prisoner, the effect is the same, so I quibble.

Several issues came to mind as I read this article, but there is one issue in particular that Amy does not identify, which I believe is important. What a nightmare it must be for Muslim parents in the U.S.  Not only to do they have to worry about all the usual things that all parents face in bringing up a child in today’s trouble world, but there is the added worry their children might be used by individuals promoting terrorist activities.

We all know innocent people are often used unknowingly and are reminded of this fact every time we go to the airport where passengers are continually alerted to watch their luggage at all times. It truly unfortunate for us all that the law enforcement agencies involved in this particular case appear to be ignoring this very real and highly probable possibility.  It seems to me there is a lot to gain by recognizing what has occurred and alerting parents, students and communities to these kinds of potential situations.

gritona: P.S.
Of course they’re all Muslims! If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be attacking us! Name for me one other non-Western (read: non-corrupt, non-racist, non-misogynist, non-capitalist pig, non-militarist) country on the planet where these guys would have the remotest chance of having “the one incredible good luck to actually get before a judge and jury and exonerated.” What happened subsequently was an immigration issue. Do you think for one instant that an American would be treated as fairly in, say, Iran? Have you heard about the journalist (a woman no less) recently arrested in Iran on espionage charges because her passport had expired (pretty sloppy spy, no?)and for the barbaric crime of buying wine? (!!!)

gritona:
DUH!!
If the Afghans were Christian, 9/11 would not have been hatched from their soil. Only the Muslims call this a holy war.

And what about “rendering?” Why does the US feel it is necessary to send some poor slob back to his own country to be tortured? Could it be because we aren’t allowed to “torture” him, but we know his home country is not constrained by such delicate sensibilities? I thought the US was the bane of humanity. How many Iranians have been “rendered” to the US so we can use our sophisticated torture techniques on them to get them to admit that they had a few beers and kissed some chick who was not not their wife?

Million thanks Amy you are still the best

The people of the u.s. have been slightly to really crazy since 9/11. The almost immediate attack on Afghanistan was cruel and criminal, and would not have been tolerated if the people there were christians. Think about it. we have imprisoned around 30,000 people, maybe a lot more, in famous and secret prisons, WITH NO CHARGES NO HABEAS NO TRIALS. and they are ALL Muslims! how can this possibly not be a holy war? How could anyone try to look any Muslim in the eye and say u.s. is trying to be fair and reasonable?  I can’t even count all the infamous stories i’ve read the last 9 years about some poor dude getting stopped at an airport, held for questioning and the locked up or “rendered”. And then as in this case, if they have the one incredible good luck to actually get before a judge and jury and exonerated- here come the ICE men.

it will take a whole lot more than empty words from the pres in Turkey to get us past this. But it must start by admitting what we are really doing. the u.s. government has been on a monstrous vendetta against Islam since 9/11, and too many people remain in complete denial.

I know a lot of Islamic people, and not one is relly and truly comfortable. Can’t be in this climate.

please just admit it’s really happening.

The posession of explosives and detonation devices is similar to a drug bust where narcotics is found in a car and one occupant declares that it is his alone.  The occupants knew each other and one of them sacrificed his freedom to let the other person in the car walk.  Terrorists and drug users act alike in these circumstances.  They see this on TV all of the time, and know what to do in these circumstances. 

I do not believe that one individual did not know what the other person had or was likely to have in their possession in these situations. 

Magahed should be deported.

well…, being from southern caifornia, specifically orange county, where obama gave his townhall, the city he spoke to is costa mesa. well, all the residents call it costa mexico! what im getting at is instead of “ice” hassling that guy who’s trying to finish school and here legally, we’ve got a zillion ‘illegals’ all over this area. they’re standing on all the street corners. it looks like the north side of tiajuana has been transplanted here. and there’s a big push to associate with gangs. either they’re “southsiders” or “pizas” pronounced with a long I. they are by far, responsible for smuggling or “muling” in all the dope. simply put, a big pain-in-the-a**! they need to start concentrating on drop kicking all these people out, getting them off the ‘dole’. and worse trying to pass legislation that would pay for their education while still being ‘illegal’ this kind of crap needs to stop. normally, im a socially progressive, but this issue really aggravates everyone here!!

godistwaddle:
But that was 300+ years ago. I’m not defending religion (love your handle by the way!) but you must admit that you don’t hear about too many beheadings at the Vatican or the local Baptist church these days. (And please don’t say that the evil US military merely does the church’s dirty work for it.)

If these boys had explosives and detonators in their cars then these boys were guilty.  How did they get off as innocent?

I believe that the founders wanted freedom from religion, not European taxpayer supported (Christian) religion.  There were many atheists who signed the Declaration of Independence, and very few and/or no clerics of any denomination signed the Declaration of Independence.  Most of these people were also Masons.  I do not know much about the Masons except that they were founded to protest against persecution of the people by (Christian) religions such as the Catholic Inquisitions that occurred during the Dark Ages and the other religious groups in the US that were executing people for various religious reasons at the time.  I believe that the founders wanted freedom of religion to also mean freedom from religious people with government power to burn people alive, hang people, crush people, and use other methods to inflict horrible punishment upon those that they considered sinners. 

You should fight to eliminate the income tax deductions and the property tax exemptions that are granted to religious groups by the federal government and by the various states, counties and municipalities.  These free rides increase the tax burdens onto all taxpayers.  Church property should not be exempt from paying taxes.  The Churches call police when they are the victim of a crime, call the fire department when they have a fire, demand city water and sewer services, street lighting, paved streets, etc.  Most local authorities provide exemptions from local taxes for religious owned property and charge the remaining property owners an increased amount to pay for serving the church properties.  This is taxpayer state supported religion. 

The Clergy enjoy the rights and freedoms that are guaranteed by our government with our armed forces.  They should pay their fair share for the support of the military and the judicial system.  They should also pay for the unnecessary government welfare programs that all taxpayers are forced to support.  The Clergy should pay taxes upon the value of all of the things that they get as perks from the churches.  The remainder of the taxpayers must then pay more taxes in order to make up the amount of taxes not paid by the clergy.  This is taxpayer state supported religion. 

The next thing the clergy will want is to be a part of the government with legal sanction to burn alive those who do not agree with them.  As a Baptist, I believe that some of our Baptist preachers could make the Catholic Inquisition Court members look like amateurs when it came to spilling the blood of sinners.

The Roman Empire grew and prospered until Constantine established Christianity as the state preferred religion in about 312AD.  The Empire ceased to exist within a generation after it accepted the altruistic principles of the Christian religion.  Christianity caused the collapse of the Roman Empire.

The Puritans, later Congregationalists, later United Church of Christ, hanged my eighth great grandmother, Susannah North Martin, at Salem in 1692.  Christ-tards are as vile, despicable, and violent as Muslims.

If you have a chance look at the interview of Bill Moyers and William K Black of April 3, 2009 on Public Broadcasting System.

This is pretty heady stuff that could bring down an elected government. These problems are on a worldwide basis and not just confined to the United States.

It appears from the preponderance of statements that Mr. Black presented to Mr. Moyers seems to establish per their discussion that both the top management of the international domestic financial and banking industries formed a cabal that was self-perpetuating based on down and out fraud that got out of control.

The United States agencies responsible for the oversight of these industries were emasculated by the Congress, budget restrictions , and directed to other functions that resulted in the lack of personnel to perform the duties that they were originally assigned to do under law.

Why Mr. Black with this knowledge of the inside working of this gigantic Ponzi scheme is a mystery to me how he is still alive?

Why the major news networks and papers haven climbed aboard situation leads me to believe that if the facts become know to the general public that we would have a national uprising that may usurp the powers of the US Constitution and the rule of law as we presently know it.

As quoted from the Moyers and Black interview: “The financial industry brought the economy to its knees, but how did they get away with it? With the nation wondering how to hold the bankers accountable, Bill Moyers sits down with William K. Black, the former senior regulator who cracked down on banks during the savings and loan crisis of the 1980s. Black offers his analysis of what went wrong and his critique of the bailout.”
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html

Shepharad: I agree with you, but Goodman’s column is about double jeopardy and immigration law, but she seems to spin it into an issue of bigotry toward Islam, and the devaluation of Islamic culture in this country per se.

godistwaddle: You’re right as far as the US is concerned, but look at Britain today. All the things you list are seriously being considered there. and I absolutely refuse to believe that a nation run by sharia law would be anywhere near as tolerant as one run by Plymouth Puritans, unless of course you run an abortion clinic.

I don’t see Muslims trying to get their prayers in my schools, their laughable science in curriculums, their craven bleats into my pledge to a textile, their morality into my laws.  Yet.  If they become a majority, of course, they’ll be as despicable as the christians.

My forefathers landed in Connecticut in 1634 and proceeded to make the land safe by exterminating the Pequot. Since then, however, we’ve been inundated by Irish, Jews, Swedes, Germans, Poles, Italians, Hungarians, French Canadians, Russians, Somalians, and other riffraff.  Nothing but trouble. Now it’s Muslims.  Why don’t all you people go back home and leave America to us Puritans?

rfidler, If Christians in the U.S. were being targeted as U.S. Muslims are, I would assume—and hope—that the true progressives would switch gear and defend the rights of the Christians. Though I appreciate much in the Islamic culture’s rich past, the religion itself is problematic because it controls not just spiritual life but also political and personal lives, which is incompatible with basic Western values and rights.  So while American court rooms do not accept the application of Sharia law, there should be the same standard civil rights accorded to Moslems as to any other American. The ACLU has lasted so long because their motto is so undeniable: “What can be done to one can be done to everyone.”

Though I’m a secular Jew unsure of whether there is any sort of god at all, it’s my strong opinion that believers also have the right to go about their business and say what they like—unless it happens to conflict with the laws of the land or to abridge anyone’s right to practice their religion.

Extreme fundamentalists in every religion have great harm to their followers, communities and countries by bringing more death and less talk to the table, endangering everyone. If scorn belongs on anyone’s head it’s theirs,  but they still have the right to believe whatever they wish.

I’m tickled by the solicitude that “progressives” offered to US Muslims, and the unabashed scorn they heap on US Christians.