Dwight Baker—Didn’t think I had a flock. Am usually the out-of-step black sheep. Only other pastures I frequent are foreign newspapers, civil rights and journalism sites, and MeretzUSA (peace party in Israel, American branch).

National Health Care could emulate the VA.  I use the VA for health care, and it seems very efficient.  Sure it can be improved, most things can. If the VA was the tower of perfection, the arguments against health care would be moot. So, I suggest, planned ineffectiveness is required for the opposition to National Health Care. So needed to support the negativity and pointing against.

Sepharad, May 1 at 9:55 pm

You need to be about your business taking care of your flock——-if you look around all your black sheep have fled to another pasture for grazing while searching for converts.

The thing about Natl Health Service , is , that everyone asks “how will we do it”, when, in fact, all we have to do is bring in a few Scandanavians or Canadians or anyone from the civilized world for a few months, and, say, “set us up”...its not like there is “no model”. We dont need” speical ‘Merkin healh care”—we are all genetically alike…

Also, when I hear Sen BaucASS say things like “‘Merkins dont want natl hs”, or, “go west young man” (anyone figure out what the hell he meant by that?), I think, “yes, and you took $500,000 from insurance insdutry”—I suppose that that has nothing to do with it….

THAT is the ‘answer”.

Leefeller, Good question. I wonder about National Health Service myself because of the many drugs Medicare does NOT cover, not even partially. A lot of the cancer drugs, some of the more effective MS drugs, and the ONLY drug that really severely retards progress of incurable rheumatoid arthritis—all of them of course expensive. But there has to be a way to provide everyone with health care, education and enough to eat. What else is a government good for? Maybe the politicians should think about that.

Had lost touch with this thread, Corporatism is opportunism for the few. Capitalists cannot stand socialism, for it cuts into profits. Easy to get the people to vote against their own best interest, usually though constant advertising and of course the help of the MSM.  For example how else can one explain the number of people who feel negative about National Health Insurance?

Charger finally came in the mail so I can read and write again.

sarah meyer—John Berger is one of my favorite writers, but I hadn’t seen the passage you quote. Thanks.

Leefeller—Socialists can’t be slackers or their whole system collapses (as some say happened in Russia). In Israel, the socialist kibbutz plan worked until they decided it wasn’t good for kids to be separated all week from parents, only reunited on weekends. Also some families wanted more privacy so they came up with the moshav—families had their own houses, but still everyone contributed to the economic projects then divvied up revenue equally. When socialism wasn’t contributing enough tax money to keep the country solvent and growing, some capitalism was introduced and now has taken over the main part of the private economy with the inevitable corruption. Centrists and lefties now want pendulum to swing back farther toward socialism but they didn’t win the election. Also, always seems that it is harder to move toward socialism from capitalism than the reverse.

KDelphi—I don’t know how smart fish are, but if you’re a Woody Allen you’d say “I don’t eat anything that has a face.”

Re Somali pirates, between the time you last posted—about when my charger failed and had to order another one—and now, we have indeed seen the 19-year-old survivor. I thought he looked pretty happy; maybe jail in the US is a better prospect than piracy in Somalia. (BTW, they just released the guy who threw a man in his wheelchair overboard during the Achille Lauro hijacking. He had served 23 years of a 30-year sentence and got off for good behavior. I don’t think anyone who could throw a man in a wheelchair into the ocean should have received such a short sentence in the first place. None of the Somali pirates did anything even approaching that level of cruelty.)

OUR MORAL BAILOUT COULD BE THE ENFROCEMENT OF THE RULE OF LAW—-SEEMS THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN AND IN POWER REGARDS ARE RIGHTS TO LAW OF NO CONSEQUENCE

These, and other grievances, were patiently borne by WE THE PEOPLE until they reached that point at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue. We then took up our combined voice again in defense of the national constitution. We appealed to our brethren for assistance.  Our appeals thus far have been made in vain.  Through months and even years have elapsed. No sympathetic response has yet been heard from CONGRESS.  We are, therefore, forced to the melancholy conclusion that the present Executive Branch has acquiesced in the destruction of our liberty, and the substitution therefore of a military government—that they insist we are unfit to be free and incapable of self-government.
XVI.
The necessity of our mortal and immortal self-preservation, therefore, now decrees our eternal political plea for CONGRESS to impeach try convict fine and banish with out impunity enablers makers and profiteers of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the inclusive war on terror
XVII.
  It has suffered a disproportion of illicit terror on the estimated 750,000 fellow Christian believers in Iraq many tens of thousands have left their homes, land people and property fleeing from Iraq during our war efforts for fear of their lives. Thus ridding the commands of Jesus Christ harm nullifying nearly 2000 years of work in Iraq that was inspired by Apostle Paul.

WE THE PEOPLE, therefore, as the constitutional empowered delegates, with plenary powers, of the people of the United States of America, in solemn sober and resolute connectivity assemble, appealing to a candid world for the necessities of our conditions, do hereby resolve and declare that our political connection with the present Executive Branch of our nation has forever ended; and that WE THE PEOPLE do now constitute a free, sovereign, and independent VOICE, and are fully invested with all the rights and attributes which properly belong to independent people; and conscious of the rectitude of our intentions, we fearlessly and confidently commit the issue to the decision of the Supreme Arbiter of the destiny of each as individuals and WE THE PEOPLE.

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Indoctrinations of control, always frothed with differences of us and them.

Sepharad—Damn! It was called “Urine Town” and the song was “Free to Pee”...

Sepharad—Sorry…lol. It is a funny/ironic play that, lampooning the tendency of free mkt capialism to privitizize everything—like Enron did with water in Latin America (it failed, thank gawd). Except, in the play , they charge you to pee….

Very good points, and, yes, I would allow for SOME Capitalism(lol) Say, dress shoes or La-z-boys… or sushi…yuk. Gold seems to be a killer wherever it is found…

I will have to think on the Somali pirate issue. I am befuddled. I know that they cant be allowed to do that, but, in truth, they were rarely violent. No, we cant restock the fish, but, the middle men make all the money off sushi. As with so many things,. the workers could never afford any of it. We are running out of tuna, but that is another story…

I saw a bit on CNN today about the pirates being shot (one that lived is 16 years old, I guess—still in custody—why dont we see him??). Then, they showed a doc that a California kids had made of 13 yr olds being forced into being soldiers and having their noses cut off in Sudan. I had to wonder, what’s the difference , a couple of years? If they were forced, in the beginnign, to be pirates, is it different? Was there another way to deal with this? Will this take attention away from the true hot spots? Were other kids—like us—just more lucky? If you are starving, is it force? What if your child needs medicine and is dying? Your husband or wife?I dont know all the answers to this.

I boycott all seafood, since diving—once you see them, touch them, see how smart they are, you just cant…but, if no one buys tuna from there, will it get worse? Did you see “Death on a Factory Farm”? But, I digress onto other plays/movies…

Denmark seems to do a good job…dream on…we have to figure out a way to take care of each other, each when each needs it. (And, everyone will, sooner or later, whether they realize it or not)Otherwise, we are worse than most Great Apes.

Chimps seem to care more about each other than humans do these days…

Leefeller, April 15 at 9:55 am
MY TAKE TODAY

After the in filling of the HOLY GHOST the first movement of JESUS CHIRST KINGDOM was in Jerusalem.  And those accounts can be read in the book of ACTS an easy read, when one is not conditioned by clergy.

Those folks practiced socialism for a time. How long I do not know.  Their initiation fee was give all to be a part——two names that stand out is Ananias and Sapphira, they did not play by the rules.  Their cause is clearly stated. But like mankind today a little light does good but they were as many today——- away from the total illumination that HE had for HIS KINGDOM to flourish on earth.  But what HE did was take away the guilt of sin so men and women could live free from shame and blame. As you know that leaves folks powerless. The other thing that HE did was taking away the fear of death for those that had followed HM and become a second Adam as HIM.

In the many accounts of history in the first century AD to and the through the third the believers or Christians learned to use situation ethics in all cases to watch each others back and not be consumed by what the STATE made as edicts that were unfair in all ways. Thus to then telling a lie or cheating or running a con to save one another was just OK.  Again in some ways that might be like socialism, accordingly when I made that historical and biblical discovery I began using situation ethics as my code of conduct in all ways.

Therefore where we are today as a nation of people is much like the days of the Roman Empire.  The empire has its benefactors of the spoils of war——and we get nothing in return not even a pay back.  Now they want to steal what we have to.  So the only way that I can see that we have even a hope of overcoming is began right now for all to practice situation ethics.

Now some of us that have been called to work in HIS KINGDOM may be called on to be martyrs for the cause in America today to help save all.  I am willing——for I don’t fear death. And that has been the only way the old line of Criminal Tyrannical Barons have had control.  The threat of death or FEAR—-OF DYING.

DB

While some feel as Sephard about socialism, others prefer to look at socialists as slackers. If one wants clean air or water, why shouldn’t they pay for it and they should pay through the nose, if it hurts so what, unless it’s taxes for the wealthy? A true capitalist would cry over spilt mile, so why not wasted water? Water boarding, a socialist would provide the water free, opposed to the capitalist who would charge for the water.  Same for everything in life. Bunkie the free picnic is in the after life not here. So it is survival of the most wealthy, not necessary the most worthy. Screw or get screwed seems to work so well for Capitalism.  Socialists on the other hand want to give everything away, what is the fun in that?  People want to believe in obtaining wealth, not equality.

There is a super secret list floating around Capital Hill,  a list of socialist Congress members, once we find out who is on this secret list, behod. There will be retribution to pay. An Inquisition by self proclaimed opportunists is in the works, this special club of unenlightened have developed something much more profound than a special handshake, instead they have a special hiding place where they keep their slightly soiled tea bags.

KDelphi—Nope, never saw “Free to Pee” but you’d better tell me more about it as I’ve been sitting here trying to figure out what the plot might be. (More restrooms for women than men? A medical thriller with an uplifting ending? Sheltering bushes on every block?)

There are a lot of things that should not be sold or distributed for profit. Clean air, clean water, place to sleep, enough to eat, education through grad school for anyone who wants it, disability and retirement support, and all useful medical meds and procedures—but that would require a wealthy and just society in which such things were “givens” then we could improve our lots from there. Maybe pure socialism re the basics mentioned above, then regulated capitalism to allow for inventing, producing and distributing all other luxuries so many now take for granted.

Some of the older people in my family used to sit around after holiday dinners comparing hard times and some uncle or cousin or great-aunt always had some even worse experience or stretch of poverty to report—and most of that took place in the First World. (Some one, forget who, once noted that the recession of 1924-25 made the great depression look like prosperity.) And my own grandmother, charitable to the marrow and truthful in all things, for years got away with fraudulently telling us to clean or plates because of the starving children in China (until I got wise and suggested she send my beets to them, for which I rightfully got smacked on the bottom). But when you look at some of Sebastiao Saigado’s photographs from gold and diaimond mine workers in Africa and Brazil, people stricken by famine walking like stick-figures across Somali and Sudanese wastelands, etc., you realize we have never in this country ever experienced that kind of poverty. It’s endless, deep, and seemingly hopeless to the people mired in it, or so their eyes seem to say. So definitely there should be many things available to all at no cost to them. Problem is that the governments and elites of all these impoverished societies are just as greedy and benighted as ours are—they just set the bar of social need way way way lower and expect people to live with it (or die, and go to a better place they tend to call paradise).

The hopelessness of trying to cope with it is illustrated by the Somali pirates, if it is true that they are just impoverished fishermen (because all that pricey bluefin tuna they’d been selling has been overfished, thanks to upscale foodies’ sushi demands). So they hijack or try to a ship full of food aid headed somewhere above or below their point on the horn of Africa coast, only get a captain for their pains, then run out of gas. Heard people on radio saying it was overreacting to shoot the poor young pirates, that more moderate responses were needed, etc. But what response would make any difference to the reason the guys are pirates in the first place? Massive restocking of bluefin tuna? Educate them re non-extinction fishing practices (if it was indeed the Somalin fishermen do did the overfishing in the first place)? Or if the bluefin ever come back, have the fishermen sell it for an equivalent of weight-in-gold pricing so they at least get something out of it? Probably they’d have to figure a remedy out themselves, as their history and culture is so far from our understanding of it that even making suggestions seems impertinent.

Oh well. Tao would doubtless have something to say about all this, maybe instructive. Where I live, everyone knows everyone and if you get into big trouble neighbors help out till a crisis is over. Or it used to be like that. Different type of people have been moving up here the last decade or so, investment bankers and the like, and with them much of the community has evaporated though there are still some of us around.

DWIGHTBAKER, April 11 at 8:40 am #

Just wondering think I could be wrong?
**************************************

I know you believe in faith, DB, but make sure you don’t include faith in Truthdig’s time-clock!  I think it may be on Tibet Central Time, tnen move to St.Petersburg time every 47.3 minutes…or something odd like that.

Sepharad—I agree. (But, they do make obscene profits on some pills necessary for life)Just thinking, at what point is something so essential to life that it would be considered immoral to make a profoiti off of providing it? (Like, how they are charging for water in some parts of sub Saharan Africa and Enron tried to do in Latin America? The Sh9ck Doctrine… BTW—did you ever see the play, “Free to Pee”?) Hard to follow, arent I? Sorry. My thoughts just jump around sometimes…  Well, you know how I feel…lol./If it is essential to life, it should be a necessity for all human beings, considering that no one asksd to be born….thanks for reply.

Dont you think that some things just should not be for profit?

KDelphi—correction: “$1500 per month”, not “per money”. Sorry.

KDelphi—I didn’t mean to imply pharmaceutical companies are not greedy—said “no more and no less greedy” than other corporate top dogs (who, as we know, are pretty damned greedy). And also agree with you and Inherit that the pharmaceuticals prefer R&D on drugs that will become “cash cows” rather than antibiotics etc. This is why I wish the government would pour more federal funds into research and development of drugs and—should have but forgot to specify that—the feds and federal agencies also need to have some input into what is being researched. (Flesh-eating bacteria would be right up there.) Also think government needs to get involved in the pricing of drugs, which will never be effective if they aren’t putting enough money into r&d to buy them some clout. Inherit mentioned the oncological drugs that are high-priced. So are certain drugs that keep people with ms from losing their eyesight, and high-tech injectables that keep people with rheumatoid arthritis functioning instead of disabled. (One of the latter costs $1,500 per money—more than many people’s monthly budget for everything—and medicare does not even cover it at all. There are only a couple private insurance companies that cover it enough to make it affordable. That particular injectable was developed by a small research company in Southern California that sold its rights to a larger company. It does cost more to produce than most drugs, but not nearly as much as its price.)

Inherit The Wind, April 11 at 8:17 am
response

Hey what is the deal?  You can’t sleep either must be too much going on round these parts.  Some body got to keep watch.

Hey thought that was the politicans Job?

Just wondering think I could be wrong?

So, while they may “spend alot on research”, this “research” is not generally directed towards, say, diseases that plague the world most, as much as towards “cures” that they consider to be the most potentially profitable. Thats how “capitalism” works. I say, that it has no business in a life or death industry—-war, medical care, etc\But, that’s just my opinion.
**********************

KDelphi, you are absolutely correct. I work in that field and I can tell you that they all want the next blockbuster drug, especially one you have to take indefinitely, whether it’s Lipitor, Prevacid or Viagra / Cialis. 

The newest hottest erectile disfunction drug that can bring in $10 billion is far more important (to them) than an antibiotic that finally can kill drug-resistant flesh-eating staph.  Why? a patient will take a lot more ED capsules in his life than anti-biotic for flesh-eating staph—and he’ll be a steady stream of revenue for 10,20, 40 years.

Of course they LOVE oncological drugs too—because a new, great chemo, even though you only may get it 6 times or 20 times, can cost $5000 PER INFUSION!  And that’s just for the drug itself….

Meanwhile vaccines and antibiotics get little funding and research.  On 60 Minutes several years ago, the big pharmas even SAID they couldn’t “afford” to develop antibiotics unless…....THEY GOT GOVERNMENT FUNDING!!!!  Yeah, real chutzpah.

BTW, Sepharad, my own little company is going through the East/West thing right now. West sent a 25 year old to East to lecture 25 year veterans on how to do their job.  Did NOT go over well…..

Sepharad—I believe the reliance on industrial research in the US is tied to ‘Merkin dependence on “rugged individualism” “‘Merkin exceptionalism” and Max Baucus repreated use of “Go West young man”? (as regards to the health “insurance” plan)

To the contrary ‘Merka has along history of acting alone, for the “good of the individual”, That is what free mkt capitalism is about.

Research is useless, if people cannot afford to utilize it.

“Research” as, far as i can tell, has been hijacked by private industry, and huge pharmaceutical corporations. Day after day, stories come out where a Statin, or other durg is NOT healthy, nor good for the disorder it is advertised for, and that the study was comducted by a corporate interest.

I would agree with most of what you say (I would find it hard to believe that university studies would have as big an ax to grind as a corporation marketing the drugs they test), except for your assertion that the pharmaceutical industry is not “greedy”...the uS is the only industrialized country I know of, where Rx drugs can be advertised to the general public. The patents they recieve, for, perhaps , changing one “molecule” of a given drug, are obscene.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15152421_ITM

“The pharmaceutical industry was the most profitable industry in the United States during 1995 to 2002. In 2003, pharmaceutical and all Fortune 500 companies had 14 percent and 5 percent returns on revenues, respectively. The increase in the number of dispensed prescriptions, as well as the use of newer, high cost drugs, results from advertising. During 1996 to 2002, consumer advertising reached its highest average of 22 percent.Prescription drug costs in the hospital system can be influenced both directly and indirectly by many factors, but the four most common direct influences on prescription drug costs in hospital organizations are the payers, providers, patients, and policy makers.”

Further…

“An estimated $111 billion was spent on U.S. health research in 2005.  The largest share was spent by Industry ($61 billion, or 55%), including the pharmaceutical industry ($35 billion, or 31%), the biotechnology industry ($16 billion, or 15%), and the medical technology industry ($10 billion, or 9%).  Government spent $40 billion (36%), most of which was spent by the National Institutes of Health ($29 billion, or 26%), followed by other federal government agencies ($9 billion, or 8%), and state and local government ($3 billion, or 2%).  Other Organizations (including universities, independent research institutes, voluntary health organizations, and philanthropic foundations) spent $10 billion (9%).

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm030807oth.cfm

So, while they may “spend alot on research”, this “research” is not generally directed towards, say, diseases that plague the world most, as much as towards “cures” that they consider to be the most potentially profitable. Thats how “capitalism” works. I say, that it has no business in a life or death industry—-war, medical care, etc\But, that’s just my opinion..

When I hear the G-20 talk about “rewarding good outcomes”, I have to wonder what happened to “good actions are their own reward”—perhaps it is naive, but, I dont think that it is too far-fetched to expect people to do a good job, go into medicine, medical research, the humanities, for the love of it or wanting to do some good in the world.Or, am I being incredibly stupid? I think (hope?) that universities have a goal in mind, aside from profit…

(continued)

Perhaps the most profound of Hedges’ insights is that moral autonomy is threatened when what we usually call liberal arts or humanities are undermined, undertaught, underappreciated. I don’t think that liberal thinking or conservative thinking is the point, but critical thinking, the opposite of group-thinking, the opposite of the committee. As early as grade school, our youngest brought home a report card with decent grades but a comment from the teacher that he was not sufficiently group-oriented and thought too much for himself. An acquaintance of mine with her PhD in Communication & Statistics, responding to my puzzlement, said that while our son was definitely creative, the cat that walked alone was not a very marketable persona. Everything in every aspect of our civilization was built around the team, the group, the consensus. And she was right. In one of the most liberal university programs in the country, the first History of Consciousness department, students learned not through individual inquiry but through jointly reading material with their “cohorts”—no part of their canon being anything that was “pale, male, stale.” Literature, poetry, philosophy, political science, history and mathematics are made by individuals whose ideas and ideals have sufficient sense, appeal, or beauty to draw other individuals into them to ponder, appreciate, learn from. And departments that focus on these things are no longer considered as important as they once were, partly because they’ve become the fringes rather than the heart of our culture. What makes today’s societal heart beat is business, industry, money, and science—all of which are marketable, a source of money and therefore a potential source of university endowments. Obviously there are gifted individuals and innovators in all of these fields, but if there is no way for the writer, the philosopher, the historian, the mathematician to create and market their product as well, what kind of citizens are we selecting for? Is the society we now live in the best we can do?

DougD opens two separate topics that are as important as the rest of Hedges’ piece—the importantance of liberal arts and humanities education, and the corporate penetration that has existed for some time and, given the financial circumstances, is likely to get worse.

One of the most endangered areas is medical research at teaching universities. Even before government funding earmarked for research began to decline, pharmaceutical companies have heavily influenced, skewed, promoted and suppressed research. Declining federal revenues are going to increase the pressure on university and independent medical and biomedical research centers, as well as medical journals themselves, that pharmaceutical companies subsidize directly or indirectly. I’m not saying the pharmaceutical companies themselves are evil bad people: they risk, spend and sometimes lose billions on researching a single drug. Without them, medicine would not be anywhere close to where it is. But it takes a lot of money to bring a drug from development through trials, and few single payer plans allocate any funds at all toward R&D. It’s something that the Obama team on healthcare and insurance should add to their brief because it’s so basic to what constitutes the healthcare they are talking about. They need to do what they can to increase the amount of federal funding for medical and biomedical research so that money men within the pharmaceutical companies—no more or less greedy than top dogs in any other business—do not feel so pressed to control what is published re research findings and indeed might be prevented in their efforts to do this by adding voting public members to their boards of directors by virtue of public monies going toward that company’s research, almost always conducted through university and research centers as well as by numerous independent labs. (There IS some public oversight by NIH, CDC, and all the other government alphabet medical-research-related agencies, but this is not the same thing as having public members on a board of directors, who determine policy concerning research and trials in universities and other centers as well as accuracy of presentation of research results. The scientists of course do the research, but the pharmaceuticals routinely review and sometimes edit results of that research before it is published.) (continued)

DougD—Good points. Thanks

Inherit the Wind, re March 27 comment—True, you never said all Texans were bad. A couple of those I named were Republicans but no politicians. Don’t worry, am not metamorphosing into FT. Fallout from the amount of automatic dissing of Southerners and Texans that still exists in California where no region but bicoastal is acceptable. (I know you’re not among that company. Sorry.)

DougD—Yes, but, doesnt it depend very much on which university, where, how it is funded, etc?

I know for certian that there is not the academic freedom that there was when I attended university. My sister and brother in law both teach, one at a state university, one at a private university. The private university has more academic frededom, but, where does that leave the students whoo cannot afford a private education (which may be almost everyone soon)?

What do you think of the idea of all publicly funded universities accepting all who wish to attend, and, being funded mostly by tax revenue?

Education should not be a for-profit enterprise. It should not be an “enterprise” at all.

I respectfully disagree with DougD’s posting. I think Chris is right on the money and for those of us acutely aware of how academia works he did a great job highlighting the problematic issues.

You know someone is off base in turning intellectual discourse by using the tried and last resort tactic of saying, “it needs more funding and resources”. What we need is more law enforcement and thus far academia has been immune from administrations lacking the will to clamp down on such trivial things as scientific misconduct and fraud. Make no mistake about it the military defense establishment through NASA pumps untold sums into fake “academic programs”. It turns out these things are jobs programs for unemployed political staffers, appointees and their spouses. In essence, the US educational system is all quackery. Look at what the Harvard and Yale business models have done to the economy. Can you say quack?

http://www.bccmeteorites.com/misconduct-planetary.html

I usually find Chris Hedges helpful, but this article is misleading and counterproductive.  He vastly overgeneralizes the problems facing academia, and in so doing, ends up nearly anti-intellectual in tone.  I was a Psychology professor at a major state university from 1984-2006.

First, most of the problems facing academia are the result of tax reduction policies that have undermined state funding and thus the universities resources.  Universities need more financial support.

Second, although the humanities and some social sciences have suffered from these cuts, many of the basic sciences have continued to flourish.  Our universities remain the greatest source of knowledge on the planet, both in terms of acquisition and transmission. 

Third, although Hedges seems to paint all academics as corporate or military pawns, this is not at all true.  Relatively few academic departments have a content area that currently valued by corporations and the military, so this type of funding is relatively uncommon.  Most funding still comes through the traditional government agencies (e.g., NIH, NSF).

Fourth, it may be true that America’s corporate culture has influenced students and university administrators, a large number of faculty are aware of these dangers and have fought hard against corporatism.  This has been a major aim of the American Association of University Professors going back to 1915. 

It is definitely a shame to see the problems facing the humanities.  But in smearing academia as a whole, Hedges is committing a great injustice. In reality, academia is one of the few remaining institutions that hasn’t been corrupted by corporatism, and rather than degrading it, we should be working even harder to protect it. 

(On the side, the statements based on the psychologist Adorno are 50 years out of date and again, overly simplified).

Yes, what he says is true. Elliott Spitzer made a good point recently. Why not have college students repay their education as a percentage of their salaries, after they graduate? That way, they could go into more meaningful fields instead of focusing on just going into the highest paying fields. The present system is stupid. Get into tons of debt, up front, and have it waiting for you to repay as soon as you graduate. It’s about time citizens make some sacrifice for the common good (higher salaries would mean higher payments for college).

Another great idea is for the government to open a retirement account for each legal newborn of say, $2000. They couldn’t touch it until retirement but, they could always add to it. That $2000 compounds very nicely over 65 years. The gov. wouldn’t have the “rob Peter to pay Paul” system that is in place now. More expensive on the front end…much less expensive on the back end.

RONTRUTH

I was a freshman at OCC in Oklahoma City and at that time Senator Kerr died, JFK flew in to pay his homage to a good American and Oklahoman too.

We all went down to get a glimpse of JFK when he arrived.  We did. I am like you I am 64 and my memory of the good times needs to be refreshed.  For at one time we did have men of honor that graced the stages of Politics the best we knew at the time. But for a long time our American Political Agenda has been to steal from us all we got. That is the way the BIG BOSSES WHO BUILD EMPIRES WORK. First they set in motion with money all the things that make commerce and trade work——then they let the middle to lower class make money [gold] and then the last phase is to steal all the gold from the workers that made the empire what it got to be. Then the last stage that we are in today is the NAFTA replacement stage.  All our posterity and us are doomed to become NOT NEEDED and the poor Mexicans are to become our replacements.

Enough said about that——is there a solution?

I have a plan
Dwight Baker We the Peoples Advocacy JOIN IN

People often say: why do politicians “whore” their way into power; doing the lying song and dance with the fat cats who own corporations, etc.? Well, you see, at 63 years of age, I well remember when there WAS a politician who was not beholden to the campaign contributions of the wealthy corporate ownership class: President John F. Kennedy.

He made decisions, after the lying to him by the CIA about the Bay of Pigs CIA-led invasion of Castro’s Cuba, that fundamentally said, the CIA could no longer circumvent the president and make it’s own foreign policy decisions. The CIA had to let the president make such decisions. They could no longer lie to a president with such things as WMD evidence, etc.

What Kennedy did not foresee was a president who would be appointed by rightwing Supreme Court justices, and thus because he was not “elected,” he did not feel he owed anything to the American people. His name was George W. Bush.

Bush and Cheney pushed the CIA to go to foreign, well documented crimainals and thugs, to get the evidence of WMDs in Iraq that failed to show up in Iraq after Bush ordered the attack on Iraq. Kennedy never likely thought that someone of Bush’s ilk wouid ever set foot in the White House. He was wrong.

He ordered the withdrawal from Vietnam, left Castro in power in Cuba, while using the Cuban Missile Crisis as a political footstool, upon which to win re-election in 1964. He died when a hail of gunshots rang out in Dealey Plasa, Dallas, Texas, Friday, November 22, 1963. See http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com for the FBI-documented story of who in fact shot JFK, and where the man still is today, alive at 67 years of age.

“Dare a man to change the given order.” (from a song sung by Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul and Mary, a popular folksinging group of the USA.)

THE ONLY RETORT TO A MORAL BAILOUT

WHO READING THIS AS A POLITICAN FOR THE PEOPLE——WOULD YOU EVER TELL A POTENTIAL BIG TIME CONTRIBUTOR——“IF YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ME AND BE TAUGHT ABOUT THE RIGHT WAY TO RULE——- THEN GO SELL ALL YOU HAVE GIVE TO THE POOR AND COME FOLLOW ME”

Amid the much rubble in the bone yards of the narrow-minded politicians of those many that are fall backs away from sanity and seen lacks in their appreciation of human dignity and in the rights for life for every one. Who is the one that stands heads and shoulders over every other for getting the GRAND CON AWARD for being the biggest political whore of them all?

My take is that on any given day that the GRAND CON AWARD for the biggest political whore changes——and that is dependant on whose ear did he/she whisper in to get —- to date—- the biggest contribution.

So goes those—- we think we vote in——to legislate our tax money being spent and guarding our borders in what is called our democracy.  But the truths of the matter most have a whore’s mentality.  Meaning——for those who do not know—-a whore get what she/he can get for turning a trick.  One might asks WHO DOES NOT do that any longer in the political game?  I have not a clue?  My take—- they all do or—- most do.

I would like to think of some that have not the whore’s mentality but I simply do not have time to do the research. And even if finding one or two what would that prove?  Because the law of averages should be proof enough for us at this time in our generation of American history to prove the point that the 95% of our population the small folks don’t have a chance at being represented and treated fairly.  Thus I think proving that the elected folks in general have whores mentality is in the eyes of each of us as the beholders.  And for those that like to live with blinders on to not see the harsh realities that we all face today in our rich and abundant America——BEWARE of the BEAST that lays in wait to DEVOUR ALL.

So what can we do as a people that are sane sanguine and not inane to the political game and intent on getting all things squared up on Capitol Hill in record time that would guarantee our solvency and sovereignty as a PEOPLE?

Re-read the heading.  The Lord Jesus Christ told that to the rich man that wanted to buy his way into JESUS TEACHINGS OF HIS KINGDOM.  Now what that tells me—- and it might tell you——- that money is not the source of good representation.  It is in the providence that one or a group possess that rids the wrongs and uplifts the rights that all might live free from tyranny and be safe sound in all that they have and posses as a communed good and moral sound people. New twist in politics I think not—- The Lord Jesus Christ said that long ago and it was HIS way for mankind to go.

We must stop the madness and bring a halt to all the prevailing ignorance that is alive and thriving on Capitol Hill today.  We must take a whip and become the pimp of our political whores and demand they do what we want for FREE. Now how do we do that?

JOIN IN to the Grass Roots Actions needed to form our own truth filled lobby in Washington DC.
We the Peoples Advocacy—-WTPA [A grand design to bring a new era to democracies]
Contact Dwight Baker .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Just be sure you know that “organized religion,” as it is currently practiced today, with politicians parading in front of congregations at election time, but then standing for corporate-driven policies that led to things like the illegal war in Iraq that has cost us so much in tax-dolloars and human life, is NOT the answer. The answer lies inside that old saying, “Do unto others as you would that they did unto you.” This is the basis of the moral lost link.

We can now see how corporate leader-hypocrisy has led to the economic “collapse.” Even so, those who orchestrated the rip-offs made to poor-credit borrowers through lying advertisements, have used their welfare handouts to give themselves pay bonuses, while those same “leaders” throw people out of work. Leaders who do these things should be tried, and if found guilty, forced to give up all their wealth to those they hurt. Then, they sould spend at minimum 10 years in prison at hard labor.

That would be the “moral” thing to do.

Taoseno,

What is your idea of a good (liberal) education? Hedges profoundness has already been accounted announced and established. He obviously has a following.

You wouldn’t know it from the previous comments, but this is an amazing article! Does anyone get it?

Hedges brings up some fundamental issues that this society had better be looking at. Most comments I read about education are made by people who have no idea what a good (liberal) education means or includes. The issue is not public/private/charter/religious, but what kind of a person do you want to emerge from the other end of the system. A great majority of our students, no matter where they attended school, know anything about their history, very little about math or science, and certainly nothing about moral and ethical issues -which is what Hedges is trying to address, I think. He’s right on about our universities! Its bunk to say that we have a good post-secondary system! What criteria are we using to support that…that we produce more MBA’s and Wall Street drones?

We need a complete re-examination of our education system. We had a good chance to do it with the new administration, but missed the opportunity.

We’re not very good at examining ultimate questions.

It is easy to lump all GOPers as something different from the living, but I prefer to look at them as the second party of the the two party system.  Contrived differences needed for the survival of the the two party system. Sort of a good cop bad cop song and dance routine.

Sepharad, March 27 at 1:50 am #

Inherit, I must be in a perverse mood tonight, determined to persuade you to appreciate Texans. Not only is Molly Ivins an exception so was Barbara Jordan (Houston) She was such a tough, cool woman and what presence! And Larry McMurtry is a raving genius. His books are so good because he knows so much history. Had no idea Charlie Goodnight (of Lonesome Dove, Dead Man’s Walk, Comanche Moon and Streets of Laredo fame) was a real guy till one day browsing the bios in a used bookstore found his memoirs. Also the best horsetrainer I know of is a woman working out of San Antonio. Next to Guadalajara-based Miguel Leon Portilla, the best Spanish colonial scholar living, W. Michael Mathes, when he retired, left the fleshpots of San Francisco and is living somewhere in the cotton fields of west central Texas where, he reports, he is totally happy sitting on the porch with a rifle across his lap thinking deep scholarly thoughts and contemplating his hounds’ remarkable hunting ability. Texas is so big that I’ve been there several times and have no idea what it’s like, but it sure as hell isn’t all Crawford. A stranger in Texas is like a blind man touching an elephant.
**********************************************

What you are in, Sepharad, is a mood to NOT read what I am writing and to infer something that is not that.

Are any of these people you named Republican Politicians? No. Of course not.

Ignoring my point and putting words in my keyboard—that Texas politicians, especially REPUBLICAN politicians are a blight seems self-evident—is what I expect of FT. 

Last good Texas pol was Ann Richards and, of course, she was Democratic.

Naming me fine Texans is not the point—trying to convince me there are fine Republican politicians from Texas will be a good trick.

Inherit, I must be in a perverse mood tonight, determined to persuade you to appreciate Texans. Not only is Molly Ivins an exception so was Barbara Jordan (Houston) She was such a tough, cool woman and what presence! And Larry McMurtry is a raving genius. His books are so good because he knows so much history. Had no idea Charlie Goodnight (of Lonesome Dove, Dead Man’s Walk, Comanche Moon and Streets of Laredo fame) was a real guy till one day browsing the bios in a used bookstore found his memoirs. Also the best horsetrainer I know of is a woman working out of San Antonio. Next to Guadalajara-based Miguel Leon Portilla, the best Spanish colonial scholar living, W. Michael Mathes, when he retired, left the fleshpots of San Francisco and is living somewhere in the cotton fields of west central Texas where, he reports, he is totally happy sitting on the porch with a rifle across his lap thinking deep scholarly thoughts and contemplating his hounds’ remarkable hunting ability. Texas is so big that I’ve been there several times and have no idea what it’s like, but it sure as hell isn’t all Crawford. A stranger in Texas is like a blind man touching an elephant.

Leefeller, you’re right of course. I think Texans get a bad rap because it’s a Bush bastion and does have a lot of Republicans. My cousin is an Irish Catholic/Jew cross on my father’s side and strangely enough the only Republican in my family anywhere, as far as I know. Yet he’s also a sympathizer of the IRA. When we were visiting him once, after a hard day outdoors we were all sitting slumped around watching the news before dinner. A bunch of Orangemen were shown marching provocatively around a St. Pat’s celebration and he actually leapt to his feet and shouted “Damned bigots!”, startling everyone, including his wife. Made my husband laugh.

The other reason people generalize about Texans is that the state is so big, with so many different kinds of people. So when someone asks what you think about “Texan” it’s like asking what you think about “Europeans.” (Lots of people also have weird stereotypes about Californians.)

KDelphi, Good question, but hard to answer. Sometimes parents treat kids like chattels or are otherwise too controlling, sometimes they aren’t interested enough. Home schooling is another tough call because what if, as you say, the parents are stupid?

I’ve always kind of leaned toward putting all the money we can spare into good public schools with smart, motivated teachers. Now there are charter and magnet schools, which are public, but the brightest kids with the most interested parents usually end up in such places. Would like to see, for every charter or magnet school in a nice neighborhood, another one in the poorer part of town.

Is it too corny to say that if we want a decent society we have to make sure every single kid gets the education she or he needs?

Religious schooling in a democracy should be an option but only in addition to a general curriculum, whether you’re a Moslem or Mormon or Jew or Hindu.
It’s hard to label a culture or religion as by nature abusive to its children, whatever you might think its shortcomings. There are good parents and bad in all cultures, but it becomes abusive when our social norms are violated too drastically and children are forced into any sort of lifelong arrangemet—very young girls being married off to older men, polygamy, genital mutilation, etc.

Social service agencies are usually skewed toward “reconciliation” between abusive or negligent parents and children because they know that after a certain age it’s hard to find adoptive parents for a kid and even a bad parent might be better than a series of foster homes. I think this sucks, but like so much in our society it’s a matter of money. So far we’ve shown a real preference for spending money on everything except our kids. Big brother and big sister programs help, and some police departments have set up special counseling and education for chronically in-trouble kids, but it’s so pathetically inadequate and reaches so few kids who need it. One thing most of us could do is find a literacy program and spend a couple two-hour sessions a week helping kids (as well as adults) learn to read and express themselves in writing. You don’t have to be a certified teacher; I’ve done it for years, since our youngest went off into the big world, wherever we are living, through local community centers. You usually are assigned one or two kids, so it’s easy to form a relationship with them. (Some of them are initially embarrassed about being far behind other kids their age, which is why they need to know you enough to get past being embarrassed, after which they usually learn pretty fast.)

When I think of all the effort and money we spend on everything but our kids, it makes me angry, and amazed at how short-sighted society can be. In other words, I want to kick some pol in the shin.

Leefeller, March 26 at 8:44 pm #

Sepharad and ITW, People should be judged on their own merit as individuals, not by stereotypes as groups or we end up joining the very bigots we despise.
***********************************************

You’re gonna extend that openmindedness to POLITICIANS?? 
From TEXAS???????? 
Who are REPUBLICAN???????????????????????????

KDelphi, don’t forget the octomom.

Sepharad and ITW, People should be judged on their own merit as individuals, not by stereotypes as groups or we end up joining the very bigots we despise.

Sepharad, March 26 at 6:37 pm #

Inherit, Don’t forget Molly Ivins was a product of Texas. And one of my favorite sayings came from Texas—“That guy is all hat.”
***************************************

I said NOTHING about Texans, just their idiot crooked Re-Thuglican politicians. 

Molly Ivins wasn’t a politician, she was WONDERFUL! She just made her living pointing out what hypocrites, liars and idiots they were, especially Shrub and “The Lege”.

Inherit, Don’t forget Molly Ivins was a product of Texas. And one of my favorite sayings came from Texas—“That guy is all hat.”
Leefeller, one reason you met so many “blowhards”
from Texas is that it’s such a big state that a lot of people who grow up there don’t feel the same sense of limits as the rest of us from smaller states that have little valleys and hollows, woods, etc. And I’ve had people laugh outright when they ask me how big Israel is and I tell them. Most of their ranches are larger.(Of course a true Texan would immediately remind me that they too have mountains and woods and cotton and cattle and desert and wet and green—it does seem like there’s nothing Texas doesn’t have.) One of my cousins, also from Missouri, runs cattle near Minneola (half way between Dallas and Louisiana)and likes most of the people because they are in general friendly. But he said “friendly” stops where private property begins, and in Texas that is spelled with two Ps. One year it rained a lot and flooded and the woman who owned an adjoining ranch threatened to sue him because so much of her land washed onto his side of the fence. He told her she was welcome to come and shovel it up and take it back. She never did but she didn’t sue him either. So I guess Texas is like everywhere else. Depends on who you meet.

I agree about kids (and parents) but, what are we to do about BAD parents, espeically in this ownership society, where some peope are under the mistaken impression that their children BELONG to them? We have a right and responsibility to step in. But, that take money and, who gets to decide what’s abusive?

Is strange fundamentalist religon , like Mormonism, abuvsive? I think it is. Is Islam? I dont know.
What about home schooling or charter schools , if the parents are stupid?

Yes, things pass from generation, but, looking at things as they are, parents must have been doing a piss poor job, or kids would be more interested , educated, less delinquency, etc.

Alot of “parents” just arent up to the task!

Leefeller, March 26 at 1:43 pm #

Stereotypes seem to be a common misconception, for I have an aversion to people from Texas, for no other reason then my experiences in the service? I should know better, In reality all people from Texas are not blow hard’s.
*************************************

Unless they are politicians, especially REPUBLICAN politicians.  Then they are usually moral degenerates and active fascists as well…Bush, Cornyn, Delay, Cheney..‘nuf ced!

Stereotypes seem to be a common misconception, for I have an aversion to people from Texas, for no other reason then my experiences in the service? I should know better, In reality all people from Texas are not blow hard’s.

Leefeller, You said it: kids learn values from parents one way or the other and being exposed to bigotry or non-bigotry, as long as the parents are otherwise people of good will, causes kids to think about it themselves and make up their own minds as you and I obviously did.

When I moved to California was amazed at how negative people were to Southerners as a group though most said they’d never actually known any Southerners except me—Missouri was a border state and remains split on many issues of race so they considered it more Southern than the enlightened bicoastal states. Found myself defending the South on a regular basis. Registering voters, I encountered a lot of Southern whites who were prejudiced against blacks and Jews and Catholics but were also very kind, and when they got to know individuals many moderated their opinions, or so it seemed. I think a lot of bigotry stems from poverty, from defensiveness, from fear of job loss and from just not knowing enough other people who were different (sort of like Californians who hear “South” and think “racist”).

ITW,

Little known are the amendments to the first 10 commandments, I believe hypocrisy is the fourteenth or I could be mixing up my ruse of laws with the Constitution, then the numbers also.

TO WHOM IT MIGHT CONCERN

Is it better to gripe, grumble and complain on TRUTH DIG and on the others sites?
______

Or could the NOT FOR PROFIT just cause to form alliances among us to get to the only core of doing Business in Washington DC on forming our own lobby efforts——- be an appropriate way to spread the message of HOPE on TRUTHDIG?
______

Then if those that complain about matters as that—- should they be allowed to continue the same old same griping and complaining that has gone on for eight long years while the BUSH BUNCH GANG was in power?
______

Solutions are what are needed now——- we all know that our plows must be cleaned——but then what?  We must plow new ground——and the only way to do that now in America is to form our own lobby.  There is simply NO OTHER WAY.  Unless folks want to take revolution to the streets then what would we have then——-some revolutionary General calling all the shots.
______
DWIGHT BAKER
We the People Advocacy
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

So far, Mr. Baker, the only “we” I see is you, using Truthdig.com as an advertisement for your particular religious organization.  As you’ve posted, it’s becoming more and more clear that your posts are nothing more than ads.

Advertising’s fine, but it seems to me that other advertisers here at Truthdig.com PAY for the privilege!

Meanwhile, you, while preaching a great morality, are, at the same time, trying to steal free advertising for your own organization.

IF IT’S NOT YOURS, DON’T TAKE IT!

That’s one of the 10 Commandments, Mr. Religious Pontificator!  And you’re breaking it as you preach.

WHO AMONG THE MANY POLITICANS THAT BOASTS TODAY?

In the Biblical Text Nehemiah hit a grand slam home run out of the park years ago. We think we have problems today in America we simply don’t have a clue what Nehemiah went through. So when you get a chance pick up your Bible and read that account of how and what Nehemiah did and then never forget——- he did it in just fifty [50] days.

Now, some of us are Nehemiah’s of new. Through providence GOD has raised up many that like Nehemiah that can get it on for us in America today.  Now are you one of those——called, as Nehemiah was to organizing and orchestrating the people to work for the common good ?

If so what should you do?——A good idea is for us to form our own lobbying efforts.  The concept is not new——the Grange did a similar thing and changed the way our federal Government worked—-years ago and they remain today in Washington DC. http://www.nationalgrange.org/

In some foreign countries advocates for the people are doing likewise, in America today many advocates to help those with disabilities are do the same.

Now FOLKS we are 5 million strong, simply saying that we must mount a front to confront the ones who use money thrown at lobbyist to get what they want that most times is against the populous NEEDS, WANTS and WISHES.

We the People in Unity
Declare

We believe that our United States of America has grown in population such that our voices in representation in our federal government has diminished to a degree that we must in solidarity form our own We the People Advocacy to lobby in Washington DC. To make our voices heard once again.
 
When we were a young nation of less that five million the size of our Congress and Senate had an ear to the grass roots needs of our people. Our population now is over three hundred million and the size of our Congress and Senate has not keep up with our growth. Therefore We the People in Unity declare that our city, counties states and Federal Governments have grown too centralized, too intrusive, too exclusive and too expensive.

We believe in Constitutional oversight by the people, smaller governments, Rights to Life for everyone in civil liberties, federalism, and taxes that span the great gulf of all our contributing members and resources and be assessed with equity for all.

We the People in Unity want to make a stern call to all elected and charged to govern us to end laws and programs that don’t work, eradicate the laws, programs and agencies that cause harm, and cause a call from our Department of Justice to summons those that have clearly violated the basic tenets of our Laws in our Constitution to be held to account.

We the People in Unity want the power to restore the full force of ALL the amendments, in our Constitution which will bring back the power to us to govern ourselves in all needed sane sanguine and society social functions and end NOW our needless and warrant less wars——and in the future——deny the use of all preemptive aggressive wars that have robbed from us our people and our communed treasury.

WE NEED YOU
TO JOIN IN TODAY to have your VOICE heard once again We the People Advocacy WTPA
Contact .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

THE NEED TO DEFINE A COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCE ONCE AGAIN

We must look at family and social impoverishment of our many from ages 13 to 28 that have profound negatives impounded on them while young.  Scarring of ones goodness found in their innate conscience is a problem that we have as a nation that must be solved. Long arduous tear filled years living with lies upon lies being told to Americans to disguise the robbery from all of US in our people, jobs, benefits and the rapping of our communed treasury has left those mentioned in a state of debate——not knowing the good for that was robbed from them when young in many ways.

So what should we do——those of us 5 million strong and not inane to the political games should JOIN IN and form our own advocate group to lobby for us in Washington DC. To bring a real and long lasting change that will give all HOPE again to right the many wrongs that have laid in wait to destroy our young.

So what are we to do? A good idea is for us to form our own lobbying efforts.  The concept is not new the Grange did a similar thing and changed the way our federal Government worked—-http://www.nationalgrange.org/

In some foreign countries advocates for the people are doing likewise, in America today many advocates to help those with disabilities are doing the same.

Now FOLKS we are 5 million strong, simply saying that we must mount a front to confront the ones who use money thrown at lobbyist to get what they want that most times is against the populous NEEDS, WANTS OR WISHES.

                  We the People in Unity
                      Declare

We believe that our United States of America has grown in population such that our voices in representation in our federal government has diminished to a degree that we must in solidarity form our own We the People Advocacy to lobby in Washington DC. To make our voices heard once again.
 
When we were a young nation of less that five million the size of our Congress and Senate had an ear to the grass roots needs of our people. Our population now is over three hundred million and the size of our Congress and Senate has not keep up with our growth. Therefore We the People in Unity declare that our city, counties states and Federal Governments have grown too centralized, too intrusive, too exclusive and too expensive.

We believe in Constitutional oversight by the people, smaller governments, Rights to Life for everyone in civil liberties, federalism, and taxes that span the great gulf of all our contributing members and resources and be assessed with equity for all.

We the People in Unity want to make a stern call to all elected and charged to govern us to end laws and programs that don’t work, eradicate the laws, programs and agencies that cause harm, and cause a call from our Department of Justice to summons those that have clearly violated the basic tenets of our Laws in our Constitution to be held to account.

We the People in Unity want the power to restore the full force of ALL the amendments, in our Constitution which will bring back the power to us to govern ourselves in all needed sane sanguine and society social functions and end NOW our needless and warrant less wars——and in the future——deny the use of all preemptive aggressive wars that have robbed from us our people and our communed treasury.

WE NEED YOU
TO JOIN IN TODAY to have your VOICE heard once again We the People Advocacy WTPA
Contact .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Values, another word for the great moral defining.

Sepharad’s story very enlightening, intriguing how kids learn in different ways, my parents were bigots but otherwise good honest people and instilled a good value code for me to live by, at least I hope so.  Suppose seeing bigotry firsthand, never made sense to me   Luckily I learned to question hypocrisy and prejudices at an early age.

Like Leefeller, I’d have to go with Inherit the Wind’s list of moral values. They’re not that hard to remember, not painful to follow. Also agree that kids get their deepest values from parents. My parents remained friends with a Japanese botany professor during WWII when he lost his job and most of his professional peers avoided him; my parents had black friends along with white ones, Catholics and Jews and Protestants but never TALKED about racial or religious tolerance. My dad once spent the night in an Alabama jail for refusing to falsify an accident report in which we rear-ended a farm truck driven by an elderly black man who hit his brakes when a drunk highway patrol officer squealed out in front of him from a road house. An AAA insurance agent got mom and us kids a motel room, got the car repaired overnight and got a lawyer to help spring my dad, then told him to not stop till we crossed the state line. It’s not what you say but what you do that your kids absorb. (And that is more or less what I said to them when they freaked out when I went south to register voters.)

CHRIS HEDGES

Again they have come out in record words a blazing and I doubt if they will end.——I did not read every post for most seemed the same to me.  And I have more to do than be barraged by what I call inane ones about most things. They once again challenged your ideas beliefs and this essay in considerations of Americans lacks in morals——thus most seemed to me were stewing and steaming over what is moral and what is not. That must be a confusing issue in their crowd. So for those who might want to post something about what your wrote – I doubt if they would——- considering the crowd—- most folks just run when they know they are not welcome.

DWIGHT BAKER
We The Peoples Advocacy
JOIN IN
Contact .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Unquestionably such a great article, one never has to ever read anything ever again.  Nihilism explained, we shall all gather in one place and agree in unison the profoundness so agreed on.

You are dead-on again, Chris Hedges, we are in DESPERATE need of a Moral Bailout.

You can see it so clearly in the dilapidation of the Left, the sorrowful moral opponent it has made to the Right-wing, immensely successful “Wrecking Crew” that has come close to destroying our country.

We all can see the role of Greed here, but how about Hate? how much has Hatred (stirred up by unethical media) harmed our country??

And I agree with Brian, its time to fight the madness!

“Chris Hedges is our contemporary visionary and prophet.  Brilliant, profound, devastating in his accuracy”.

Are you his wife, mother or publisher?

Please, humor us, what is visionary or prophetic?

Usually when someone agrees with something or disagrees it is a nice practice to describe what it was that caused one to write?  Please expand on, what was found so brilliant, profound, and devastating in Hedges accuracy, other than agreement, was this supposed attempted sarcasm?

Before you reply, let me read his article over, I must have missed something?

hello. religion does not take place in school. it is in church. school is motivated by financial resources. church teaches about God. corporations need employees to represent the corporation. moral decisions independently determine whether you are able to work: in their environment. school that does not allow open discussion, and freedom of speech; for all topics: must fear something unAmerican. morality is as alive and well in our great country: as it ever was. if the media does not want you to believe that; change the channel.

Stating this article as a “fact that this piercing and accurate article is appearing here”, gives me pause to ask: “fact” to whom? Piercing and accurate in what sense?

Hedges is letting the dogs out again, issues and attentions of this article have all been said many times before, though I support the main premise of this article, I question Hedges full agenda beyond his points. 

If a person finds it enlightening, welcome.

Archie1954—Well, thank gawd! Because if the GOP are totally to blame, everything should be just fine now!

Yeah, sure the Boue Dogs, Clintons, etc, had absolutely nothing to do with this criminal, immoral globalization and blackmailing of the working people. That is why the current president, as well as almost all the Congress, voted for the Bailout with no restrictiona, and put the bone-us(es) in the Stimlulus plan…concern forthePeople.

flow,

Thanks for the compliment. It’s been apparent the old paradigm is reaching the limits of effectiveness, so it seems necessary to understand why and what comes next. Everyone wants to fix what we have, but the problems are more fundamental than anyone cares to admit.
Think of what we have as the caterpillar and hopefully what emerges is the butterfly, but that might be a few generations.

keep it simple stoopid:

  1) do unto others as you would have them do unto you
  2) give it your best shot and let the chips fall where they may

and these 2 don’t even presuppose a sky-god

I have to agree with “Inherit the Wind” about the inherent simplicity of acting ethically and consciously in this life, with or without the promise or threat of reward or damnation if you do ...or don’t. Ethical tests given to atheists and true believers reveal no disparity between the two. People have been murdered in the name of religion and secularism. I guess it comes down to which part of the brain you respond to the most: the reptillian or neo cortex. We see now what happens when the higher brain functions are placed at the disposal of the snake within. We obfuscate the obvious so we don’t have to take responsiblity for our own actions and learn from our mistakes. Just a thought!

Leefeller—Yes, but, the “criminals” accept their morals as ones that they have “learned” the same as you may have “learned” the Ten Commandments. Most dont seem to apply nowadays.
“Alternativbe” moralities are probably certain that their own moral code fits the world “as they see it”.

I think that some morality is inherent, but, how moral is a two year old? most of it is learned.

Yes, if everyone stopped coveting their neighbor’s manservant, we would all be so much better off…get your own, right?

Self righteousness is a problem in itself. Morals defined by whom, the self righteous. ITW, states a small list of morals, which seem common sense to me. Other posters suggest we should all go back to the stone age and live in caves.  Evidently relgions has it’s own agenda of morals.

A 75 year old women who is to receive 40 lashes and 4 years in prison for allowing unrelated delivery men into her home, in Saudi Arabia. She has abused her societies list of morals or religious laws. She supposedly knew the alleged morel law and broke it, now she is to pay her dues.

Seems morals are defined by the people in power,  sometimes using religion as a guiding tool, the spiritual definer of morals. In the case of the Saudi’s, why would these standards of morals be accepted by western culture, why should the Saudi’s accept mine, yours or ours?

Morals may not be inherent, but instead acquired? So when societies differ on standards of morals, what does that mean?

My list of morals is very much like ITW’s, Could morals really just be common sense, I doubt it. Criminals develop their own codes of morals and laws, much different from most in our society.  I may be wrong on this, looking at the state of things in our coutnry now. Maybe the difference is between laws of man, and inherent morals by other people around us. Which drives the other, morals driving laws or the opposite or morals and laws the same?

“They accept the assumptions of corporate culture because they have never been taught to think.”

~~~

What appears apparent to one might be missed entirely by another. Which is why it is so important to learn how to think. Our education system completely fails to teach our kids how to think. Seems like a simple thing, so how come it’s so hard to understand? If parents were teaching their kids how to think, their kids would demand the challenge of being forced to think when they get to school. Not by words, but by behavior. And if the educators were focused on teaching how to think, they would respond to that behaviour. But even they are teaching from a base where they were never taught to think. And all to often, so are the parents. Were that not true, so-called reality TV would be boring and laughed off the air!

One kid repeats excitedly what he “learned” watching someone struggle to free himself on last nights Survivor. The other kid asks, “Why didn’t he just ask the crew behind the camera to come help him?” Think. Nice when it comes out of the mouth of a youngster. Maybe there is still hope.

But is the not being able to think really immoral? Is a whole society of people who don’t know how to think immoral? Or is it something as simple as having, or not having a conscience? That’s a dilemma prosecutors deal with every day. We see whenever there is a real tragedy, not a virtual one, people respond in a positive way. The same people who believe everything they’re told by “authority” ignore authority and rush to help someone in trouble. Is that because they have a conscience? And what is a conscience if not empathy. Empathy is exploited by the producers of Survivor to promote their show. But true empathy, like most feelings, is hard to teach, unless to “think” guides the teaching.

Religion teaches we must have moral clarity, but at what point in time does the clarity become muddied by the constant repetition of “only one way?” Does that cancel out empathy? How can one empathise with the feelings of others if they are taught the feelings of others are wrong if the “other” doesn’t feel exactly as the religion says they should? The thinker will challenge that assumption. Just as the thinker will challenge the assumption that guilt by association is true guilt. And all things can be defined by a simple title or place in time.

It may offer some feel-good sense to those who feel abused to simply dismiss everything bad that happens as amoral, I do it myself. But in reality nothing is that simple. When we learn how to think well enough to recognize there is good and bad mixed together everywhere, we can then define and separate one from the other. Then we can use that thinking ability to make choices. Because I reject the notion that the world is that black and white. That we are captive to an impossible with no way out.

I also reject the notion that we can define a persons morality by their personality. It has been my experience that often the highly emotional, animated and vocal are driven as much by a need for attention (think politician) as by an ability to aggressively attack a problem. Likewise the person who functions soberly, slowly, with careful thought and little comment, may be focusing a lot more on the problem.

I know myself well enough to say, in a disaster, I’d probably be the one running around screaming call 911! Better to get out of the way and let the sober and serious help. Does that make me amoral? Does that make the sober and serious who quietly step in and do what they can amoral?

Think.

Morality is the topic of this post.  And I fear that many in America have lost their innate senses in their conscience to thrust forward all acts needed to be civil, sound and moral.  Our cities have grown without proper good education in many locations and that has been the hot bed for despotism to flourish. Thus for us as a society that has powers that simply others do not have, we must at this time in our history stop the griping complaining and once again unite our voices in one accord and do the right not the wrong things.

SHOW SOCIETY YOUR DEEDS————SOCIETY WILL NEED TO READ YOUR WORDS
SHOW SOCIETY YOUR WORDS———-SOCIETY WILL NEED TO SEE YOUR DEEDS
BY Dwight Baker
March 21, 2009

Have many of us Americans become snobbish critics that have neither?  No societal words or deeds.

Thus have our state of the union and the well being of our society become for some just a casual satiated exclusion and satisfied to become a mere belittling critic?

If so, I submit we must ask ourselves what are those of that mind set ignoring, at this time when their skills observations intellect is most needed?

Has the many roads that lead to exclusion ever been good for the great encompassing societal sectors for the good of our moral based communed American society?

I think not.

Seems to me that more in our society each day is pulling back from the needs to be inclusive.

Hence those seeking that other and higher pompous ground to be walled up around with acts of exclusions may in fact be one more rub to come to try and destroy us from within.

If those premises be so——then who could ever report that those ideologies of life will ever defeat the many vile and evil people, matters and things that have come about to wreck our well being as a sovereign nation?

Thus let all of us ARISE and SHINE to once again be an inclusive communed voice for our Great and Abundant America and our sovereignty.

DWIGHT BAKER
Bondservants of Christ Jesus Ministries
We the People Lobby [Advocacy]
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Has our humanity become less——that now hope has become dim and —- many now spend most of their time digressing toward the give up, give in to anarchy mentality, then revolt when grief, and no relief is in reach taking it to the streets?  History proves that attitude has destroyed many people and property in civil societies in the past? 

If you are one that loves this land and our rich diverse people and you want your VOICE heard then read our preamble and take the rights steps to become a contributing member/partner.

                  We the People in Unity
                        Declare

We believe that our United States of America has grown in population such that our voices in representation in our federal government has diminished to a degree that we must in solidarity form our own We the People Advocacy to lobby in Washington DC. To make our voices heard once again. 

When we were a young nation of less that five million the size of our Congress and Senate had an ear to the grass roots needs of our people. Our population now is over three hundred million and the size of our Congress and Senate has not keep up with our growth. Therefore We the People in Unity declare that our city, counties states and Federal Governments have grown too centralized, too intrusive, too exclusive and too expensive.

We believe in Constitutional oversight by the people, smaller governments, Rights to Life for everyone in civil liberties, federalism, and taxes that span the great gulf of all our contributing members and resources and be assessed with equity for all.

We the People in Unity want to make a stern call to all elected and charged to govern us to end laws and programs that don’t work, eradicate the laws, programs and agencies that cause harm, and cause a call from Justice to come to all that have violated the basic tenets of our Constitution.

We the People in Unity seize the power to restore the full force of ALL the amendments, which will bring back the power to us to govern ourselves in all needed sane sanguine and society social functions and end the use again and end now all preemptive aggressive wars that have robbed from us our people and our communed treasury.

WE NEED YOU
TO JOIN IN TODAY to have your VOICE heard in We the People Advocacy WTPA
Contact DWIGHT BAKER .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

i pretty much quit reading hedge’s stuff a while back even tho he’s obviously intelligent and there is much truth in what he says.  just too much humorless progressive preachiness for my tastes. i am glad that TD keeps posting his stuff tho…reading thru this thread has been a blast.

What p***es me off is that “right” and “wrong” are really not difficult abstract concepts. 

If it’s not yours, don’t take it!
If you make a promise, keep it.
Don’t hit someone who didn’t hit you first.
If you screw up, admit it, stop screwing up, accept the consequences and move on.
Don’t hurt the ones you love by indulging short-term desires.
Don’t kill someone who isn’t trying to kill you first.

How the f*** can you not know these things?  Yet time and time again EVERY CRISIS is due to someone not following these basic rules of life.

Here’s another pretty basic one: Don’t “roll the dice” with someone else’s money. There’s a difference between risk and gambling when it’s somebody else’s hard-earned dough. Imagine it’s your Mom’s or Dad’s retirement money.

Yet we see civic, business and religious leaders constantly seem to have trouble with this basic kindergarten stuff.  Do I have a problem with Haggard or Hazard or whatever that preacher’s name was having gay sex with a male hooker?

Yes: Because he was publicly attacking “homosexuality” as a sin.
Yes: Because for his own selfish-short term desires he was hurting the ones he loved.
Yes: He was breaking a promise.

It’s not a battle between Rand-ian selfishness and Socialism.  It’s very possible to follow EITHER philosophy honestly and STILL live by these rules.

Rand-ian enlightened selfishness and greed is a scapegoat blamed for flat-out thievery

Socialism is a scapegoat blamed for attempts to STOP that flat-out thievery.

Both scapegoats are lies.

I’m not religious at all but I’m always shocked when I hear someone say it’s hard to live according to the 10 Commandments?  Why?

WTF is so hard about following the non-deity ones, starting with “Honor your father and mother”? OK, some parents are disasters and don’t deserve it, but most do.  And the best way to honor them is to be GOOD parents yourselves!

Don’t murder.  This is tough?????
Don’t commit adultery:  My view is this has little to do with sex and EVERYTHING to do with cheating on your mate.  Yet it’s been twisted to mean ANY sex not sanctioned by the Church or Synagogue, Mosque or Temple.

Don’t steal…DUH!

Don’t lie to hurt someone else.

And on and on. I’m always amazed that people say these are hard to live by when they are just common sense.

A significant oversight on the part of Mr. Hedges—What ever happened to
warrantless wire tapping? Did it just go away magically? I haven’t heard any
mention of it since Jan. 20th. Have you?
Its a hobby of mine to try to spot the cameras at traffic intersections. It seems
easier nowadays, and they’ve become more numerous, as strings of cameras now
festoon the interstate recording our movements as well.
Am I the only one here still uneasy about 1984?  Look around you, fools. While you play Tweedledum and Tweedledee—;
The fascist police state is here to stay.

jbmjr #

Well said. Very intriguing. As the house of sand constructed by the decaying paradigm disintegrates, it is precisely this kind of imaginative, intuitive insight and discernment that will—that must—furnish the cornerstone for the new construction.

glagadec,

Astute comment of opinion, very close to my own.

Find it interesting you mention tone. It has been one of my special interests on these threads. Many times I have been able to make a decision on suggestions, of bigotry from posters, through the code of tone displayed by their wording.  Many other things can be received or suggested from tone.  It can be fascinating sometimes how people express their opinions.

Missing here are the inflections of voice and facial expression not to mention posture or hand movement. So this is what we have to work with and interpret from, tone.

“Moral autonomy”, i.e., the practice of doing what’s right because it is right, regardless of whom it may offend or what institutions is may threaten.  And it is exactly what our new president seems to lack.  He has consistently deferred to the “experts” running the military-industrial complex, and so we are on the same road we were on under Bush.

I quit posting comments on Youtube a long time ago because of the rudeness and sarcasm that some people pass off as chic intellualizing.New to this forum, I told a joke to illustrate a point about moral relativism. Although I do not agree with some of the assessments of Chris Hedges’ article, I did read them and found them interesting and well written. I will not engage in the type of snide and rude comments already directed at the comment I recently made. Thank you for your demonstation of superior knowledge, but that was the story as I heard it, and I believe it does accomplish my goal: to illustrate the current condition of obfuscation and rationalization that now represents our culture. There is also a general lack of civility and an inablity to argue a point with out an unnecessary, derogatory tone. Tone is everything when it comes to human discourse. Many have become deaf.

I’ve lived my life by the code of treating others as I want to be treated, but I’ve come to the realization that the situation is more complex than our moral assumptions take into account.
For one thing, good vs. bad isn’t some overarching conflict. The attraction to the beneficial and repulsion of the detrimental is the primordial biological binary code on which all our thought processes are based. Amoebae distinguish between good and bad. We are just very complex manifestations of that basic impulse. Between black and white are not just shades of grey, but all the colors of the spectrum. The problem with idealizing good vs. bad is that it creates a brittle linear morality, where if a little of something is good, than a lot must be that much better and anything at all bad, is all bad. There is no conceptual understanding of reciprocity, reaction, balance, laws of unintended consequences, etc. This complexity is usually derided as moral relativism and everyone choses sides.
This goes to the nature of what God is. Pope John Paul II described God as the “all-knowing absolute.” This is a contradiction, because knowledge is a feedback loop of distinction and judgement, while the universal state of the absolute has no distinctions. It is the equilibrium. Zero, not one. The blank page, not the point at the center. A spiritual absolute would be the essence of being from which we rise, not a morally perfect and intellectually omnipresent ideal from which we fell.
It would be nice if there were simple absolutes we could all adhere to, but it’s time we begin to accept that it’s not that simple. Nature bootstraps itself up out of the muck, with each generation as foundation and fodder for the next. The next stage would be a transition from being the top predator of the of the planetary ecosystem, to central nervous system of the planetary organism, but it would take drastic change on the part of everyone.
It is the ideas which are the framework of society and civilization. If the moral model could be restated, it would undermine many of the more entrenched social and religious conflicts. Not right away, but if it can be broadly understood that the source is the essence and not the ideal, it would return conflict to basic tribal interaction, not divine ordination and compromise would be more logical. The polytheists invented democracy, while monotheism validated the divine right of kings.
In regard to the economic meltdown, it would require rethinking how the economy functions. Economics 101 is supply and demand. With capital, the supply is the lender and demand is the borrower. After decades of supply side economics giving every break to the lenders, the borrowers are now broke. Having the taxpayers buy the bad debts from the lenders to give them more money to lend isn’t going to fix the problem of limited borrowing. Money is a publicly supported utility, like a road system. It has to be publicly administered. This doesn’t mean one huge national bank, but to have banking as local as possible, with every level of government, county, town, city, state, having a banking function and profits going to fund local infrastructure. Political power used to be private once. It was called monarchy. The monarchists railed against mob rule, but democracy works by distributing the power as broadly as possible, through various layers of governance. Now we need to do the same with economic power.
If people understood money as a public utility in the first place, we would be less inclined to drain value out of our communities and environment to put in a bank.

Thomas Geoghegan on “Infinite Debt: How Unlimited Interest Rates Destroyed the Economy”

What does the proliferation of usury suggest about the moral fiber of our culture?

AMY GOODMAN: In your history of usury, basically, from ancient times to today, you’re also giving a labor history, a labor history of this country.

THOMAS GEOGHEGAN: Sure.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain.

THOMAS GEOGHEGAN: Well, history—historians like Niall Ferguson, conservative historians and progressive historians, many economic historians, see history as nothing but a turf war between three groups: the manufacturers, workers and the bondholders, or the financial sector.

So where does labor fit in in all of this? People lost the ability to get wage increases and got the ability, an incredible ability, really unknown in previous times, to get credit cards with which they had high rates of interest. So, unable to get wage increases, people—or unable to get union cards, really, people got credit cards and began running up these great debts, which addicted the country to high rates of return in the financial sector, so that people were kind of spending their way out of the real economy, pushing more and more money, by the fact that they were going into debt, into this virtual financial sector economy. So, really, the inability of people to raise their own wages and the incredible ease with which they could get credit instead helped create this flow of capital out of manufacturing and into finance. You know, we, the little people in this country, helped finance the bloating up of this financial sector and really the downsizing of our own jobs in the real economy. We sent the signals, you know, to investors to put money into the financial sector and not into the manufacturing sector.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/24/thomas_geoghegan_on_infinite_debt_how

sprag80a:  your buttress chris’s point by showing your view of colleges as mcdonalds.

Colleges provide a service and like any business adjust their mix of products and services to meet changing demands.Colleges are responding to market forces, and not dancing to the tune of the Power Elite. Colleges expanded their business programs because that’s what their customers—prospective students and their parents—wanted. Higher Education is a business, get over it.

isnt this exactly the problem?  cant education aspire to anything higher than pumping out hamburgers?  havent corporate interests skewed higher education?

Third, Hedges’ moral condescension is offensive. In Hedges’ world, if you’re a philosophy or English major, you’re imbued with an oppositional, critical spirit. You’re capable of thought. On the other hand, if you’re a business major or engineering major, you’re an automaton who uncritically accepts all the “assumptions of corporate culture.”

i went to one of the best engineering schools in the nation.  some of these business majors and engineers where amazing with regard to the specificities of their field.  ask them a question which requires critical thought or have them give some analysis of shakespeare and you will see what many of them are made of.  childish dribble at best.  they have a swollen bicep and a withered tricept.  also worshipping at the alter of corporate culture was the soup du jour.

Yes, ITW, but, what are we to do with children who chose poorly when they chose parents? Also, please back off of glacadec—who gives a damn about a joke? They were here for the first time, and, personally, I think we can use some varied voices here.

Folktruther—You make some very good points. I havent read Hedges’atheist” book—I can only afford so many, and I know that I would disagree with so much…I havent bothered. But, you are right—-religion is a big killer of progresivism…

felicity—glad to see someone else blaming capitalism. Be careful though—in ths country , youre better off blaming almost anything else. We are not so much a religous country as a MONEY country….

Somebody Else,

Thanks for you insight. Your comments about Hedges attitude towards atheists was in the back of my mind as I continued to read his article.  Hedges did not say anything new in this article. Everything mentioned has been suggested before by others. Notice he did not use the word plutocracy for some reason, or did I miss it?