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Why Did So Few Americans Give a Damn?

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Posted on Mar 5, 2009

By William Pfaff

The documents currently being released by the Justice Department that demonstrate the Bush administration’s view of the president’s constitutional power in a “state of war” tell us things we suspected but didn’t want to know.

The first seven of these official memorandums issued last week dealt with claimed presidential powers to unilaterally abrogate international treaties; suspend constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and press; and order warrant-less searches, wiretaps and seizures of documents and indefinite imprisonment inside the U.S. without trial or criminal charges. The memorandums claimed that Congress has no overriding authority in these matters.

The authors of all but one of these documents were John Yoo and Jay Bybee (both then of the Justice Department but now, respectively, a member of the University of California at Berkeley Law School faculty and a federal judge on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals). They were also the authors early in the Bush administration of two special memorandums defining torture much more narrowly than in the United States code of military justice or U.S. civil law.

They redefined torture to permit what ordinarily is illegal in U.S. military and civil law under the so-called Federal Maiming Statute. This law makes it a crime to disfigure faces and body parts with knives or razors, or to cause blindness, or cut out tongues, or perform other grotesque and gruesome tortures that this column will leave to the consciences of professor Yoo, Judge Bybee and the senior members of the Bush administration who wished to be advised on their exemption from such legal limits.

Professor Yoo’s view is that the president possesses unchecked authority “in a state of armed conflict.” At the time, this state of armed conflict consisted of a dozen or so stateless persons who had deliberately crashed aircraft into New York and Washington buildings. The two initial memos on torture were withdrawn when they became public.

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The American use of torture has been public knowledge or surmise since very early in President Bush’s war on terror. Not many Americans seemed to take note or to protest at the time. There were individuals who protested; the American Civil Liberties Union was on the job, as were Amnesty International and other American nongovernmental organizations and citizens’ groups. They were mostly ignored. Questions were asked in Congress, but little ensued.

This was the amazing thing, really. Very few people among the American public seemed to care—except Fox television executives, who recognize a commercial opportunity when it hits them between the eyes.

Fox began a drama in which each program was devoted to the American president’s torturer doing whatever had to be done to thwart a new threat to the American republic. The hero would apply one of the tortures pronounced legally OK for Americans to use, until the terrorist, gasping or screaming, blurts out where the nuclear bomb has been planted.

This turned out to be one of the most popular programs on the air. It seems that President Bush himself watched. People in the torturing business joked that they got some good ideas from the program.

What if 65 years ago in Germany entertainment radio had broadcast a popular program in which SS and Gestapo officers tortured American OSS officers, or captured American or British airmen, to extract vital information from them at any cost? Adolf Hitler himself might have tuned in. He had decreed that Allied commandos in military uniform should be treated as terrorists rather than as soldiers.

The final thing I will say about this is that many or most of the documents now being issued on how President Bush might ignore the U.S. Constitution had to do with domestic surveillance and the (illegal) use of American military forces against the American public.

That probably would have begun in a small way. “Troublemakers” disappearing here and there. Protest groups rounded up and sent to camps. Possibly a day would have come when some conference of lawyers, or the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, or Americans for Democratic Action, or the Cato Institute, or some political pressure group like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, did something that seriously annoyed the White House.

If a battalion of military police took over the hall and the participants “disappeared,” it would certainly have made the newspapers, if the newspapers still reported such things. But considering the precedent of the American popular reaction to torture, what else would have happened? Possibly there would have been a popular new television program about the subversive forces at work in America, and how patriots should deal with them.

Visit William Pfaff’s Web site at www.williampfaff.com.

© 2009 Tribune Media Services Inc.


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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, March 15 at 4:09 pm #

Inherit you ignorant boob.  God doesn’t whisper in my ear, the goddess Clio does, the Muse of History.  Male, chauvenist worshiper!
********************************************

Very Good, FT, you ridiculous arrogant ignoramus. You’ve actually studied Greek and Roman mythology…So I’m guessing if Clio is whispering in YOUR ear, it’s all Greek to you anyway.

That, at least, is obvious.

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By Folktruther, March 15, 2009 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

Inherit you ignorant boob.  God doesn’t whisper in my ear, the goddess Clio does, the Muse of History.  Male, chauvenist worshiper!

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, March 15, 2009 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Going back to the theme of this thread of , “Why Did So Few Americans Give a Damn?,” here’s a link to an ANTI-WAR.COM interview, in which Ray McGovern, former senior analyst at the CIA, discusses the ebb and flow of neoconservative influence in the White House, how the scuttled Charles Freeman appointment weakens U.S. leverage with Israel, the incredible influence still exerted by Steven J. Rosen despite his indictment under the Espionage Act, the shortcomings of the mainstream media and how the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran prevented a disastrous war.

AntiWar radio interview - http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/03/12/ray-mcgovern-15/

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 7:39 am Link to this comment

Folktruther, March 15 at 12:23 am #

Meretz is a fake peace party of Israel that calls for peace in rhetoric and supports Israeli militarism in action.  It actually called for the invasion of Gaza, later pretended to being horrified by the bloodshed.  Israeli ethnic cleansing is ususally accompanied by lipservice to a fake ‘peace process.’

Like all Israeli militarists, the rockets of Hamas drives them crazy.  It is an act of military defiance that interferes with public relaitons aspect of Israeli ethnic cleansing.  The Palestinians are supposed to be a defeated people and resistence belies the US-Israel success of their oppression.

The function of fake peace groups is get peace oriented people to support war policies, or at least to neutralize them.  the same function as Obama; campaign on a peace platform and then continue and increase the wars.

there is however a true peace movement in Israel, that led by Uri Averny called Gosh Shalom.
***********************************************

Thank God and all His angels we have FolkTruther to reveal God’s Truth to us and uncover Satan’s forces masquerading as a Peace party that is really a vicious war party because it isn’t CELEBRATING the heroic Hamas forces firing rockets into Israeli population centers.  After all, Hamas’s refusal to do their part to do what it takes to achieve peace should be cheered….Right?

Thank God FolkTruther can show us that this total contradiction of common sense and logic really IS God’s Will.  After all, FT KNOWS that Sepharad is really a Mossad agent eager to foment more and more military actions by Israel, to expel all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank.  How does FT know this? God tells him.

Must be Divine Inspiration because there’s nothing on THIS earth that leads to such absurd conclusions and statements…How else could FolkTruther be the mindreader he claims again and again and again to be? 

After all, he can read MY mind—he knows what I’m thinking better than I do. 

He knows what Sepharad is thinking better than she does.

He knows what Shenonymous is thinking better than she does.

He knows what President Obama is thinking better than the President does.

He knows what Hillary Clinton is thinking better than she does.

He knows what EVERYBODY is thinking better than they do!

How can this be without God whispering in his ear?  Even Marx and Lenin didn’t claim such omniscience—they were too wise for that.
(But Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot all did—they knew what the enemies of Marxism were thinking BEFORE those “enemies” did—and acted accordingly.)

It’s very dangerous to claim to know what someone’s thinking and judging them on that, rather than on their actions.

Report this

By Folktruther, March 14, 2009 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

Meretz is a fake peace party of Israel that calls for peace in rhetoric and supports Israeli militarism in action.  It actually called for the invasion of Gaza, later pretended to being horrified by the bloodshed.  Israeli ethnic cleansing is ususally accompanied by lipservice to a fake ‘peace process.’

Like all Israeli militarists, the rockets of Hamas drives them crazy.  It is an act of military defiance that interferes with public relaitons aspect of Israeli ethnic cleansing.  The Palestinians are supposed to be a defeated people and resistence belies the US-Israel success of their oppression.

The function of fake peace groups is get peace oriented people to support war policies, or at least to neutralize them.  the same function as Obama; campaign on a peace platform and then continue and increase the wars.

there is however a true peace movement in Israel, that led by Uri Averny called Gosh Shalom.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 14, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Fadel,

I’ll bet your betting nobody actually reads this article with a discerning, critical eye.  Well, I did.

Mr. Tucker is not presenting an argument, a point by point establishment of a position, then drawing the logical inferences from it.  Nor is he demolishing an argument, point by point refuting premises and inferences as false.

No, instead it is nothing but yet another primal scream about how rotten Israel and Israelis are for defending their territory and how we (the US) should cut them off.

It’s sure got a lot of value-laden adjectives in it, but not much in the way of facts.

Why you bother to post this as if it was something special is a mystery to me.  I know the Triangle area—I once lived there.  The implication as that the rest of North Carolina is nuthin’ but a buncha dumb rednecks (pat of butter floating in a sea of grits). 

Yet this “redneck” state has a Democratic governor (and had others in the past) and now has TWO Democratic Senators—and went BLUE for the first time since, what, 1976.  You don’t get THAT with just a “pat of butter”.  It’s a lie about one of the more unusual and progressive Southern states.

So why DID you post this stupid little primal scream?  In every post you show how little you know about the country that has been your home for 30 years (about the time I moved to North Carolina—and I was sorry to see the ‘Heels get upset today!)

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By Sepharad, March 14, 2009 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

Just occurred to me that of all the many times I’ve stated I am a Zionist on this site, I don’t think I’ve given the party affiliation. My membership is in Meretz (and MeretzUSA), and there is ample information on their positions on the internet in (many more complete than Wikipedia). Also of interest to both friends and enemies of Israel might be the New Yorker Magazine profile (April ‘08, I think) on Amos Oz, also on the internet as well as more recent interviews with him since Gaza (which he said left him both infuriated with Hamas and infuriated with the military’s overly-strong strike) that I mention because his views and those of Meretz (of which he is also a member) articulate what I believe is the only possible good future for both Palestinians and Israelis. I know you guys post links etc. but by googling Meretz and, separately Amos Oz, you can choose how much you want to read and get a variety of slants. (Unfortunately, Meretz won only 3 seats in the Knesset this election. Israel’s left is as fractured as it is in this country, and I hope will pull itself together as a result of this debacle.

FT, Prof. van Crueveld is only one of many military strategists and analysts writing. Their views vary. Hersch’s book on the Samson Option is the clearest I’ve read on that topic though the future is unknowable.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 14, 2009 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

The following are excerpts from an article by an American Jewish activist, Roger Tucker. It comes in a form of an open letter to representative David Price (D) 4th District, NCT. An indicative that growing numbers of Americans are fed up with Israel’s atrocities and with the politicians who support it. The author is an advocate of a one state solution. Lengthy article, but must be read in its totality for better appreciation! The author is a courageous soul of the TRUTH, who writes under his real name, unlike some the Zionist cowards on TD who hide under fake names!
===================================================

The Case Against Israel’s “Right To Exist”
By Roger Tucker
14 March, 2009
Countercurrents.org

http://www.countercurrents.org/tucker140309.htm

“As you know, Mr. Price, I was invited to join a group of activists who met with you Monday morning to urge you to take action regarding the siege of Gaza, the Occupation and American support for Israel. I declined to attend because my particular focus is on One State advocacy, and you have made it crystal clear that this is not your view, nor is it ever likely to be (unless and until, in the due course of time, it becomes politically expedient). You represent the Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), fondly known as the pat of butter in a sea of grits, a highly educated, liberal, metropolitan area that votes heavily Democratic. You received 63% of the vote in the recent election, and fly under the “progressive” flag. Yet you voted for House Resolution 34, supporting Israel’s massacre in Gaza.

Dr. Sarah Shields of UNC took you to task for that in her excellent article, but biting and accurate as that was, she only went halfway. All of the actions you were urged to take are mere palliatives .They would serve no other purpose than to apply a little band-aid to a wound so deep and life threatening that the patient belongs in the Intensive Care Unit (too bad the hospital was bombed out of existence). That sort of thing makes progressives feel good about themselves but doesn’t even begin to address the real problem, which is the continued existence of the State of Israel. To say such a thing is the most blasphemous conceivable heresy from the Zionist perspective, which they have managed to convince most Americans is a sane and reasonable point of view. But, like the “official” version of the Holocaust, that other jury-rigged pillar supporting the edifice of the Rube Goldberg contraption called Israel, it is actually sane and reasonable to call such dogmas into question. From the point of view of science and history, of reason and the pursuit of truth, there can be no forbidden subjects, or we take the risk of returning to the Dark Ages.”

“Would pointing out that Israel is a xenophobic, racist state that has been practicing ethnic cleansing since its inception do the trick? How about making the case that Israel practices a form of apartheid that observers like Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu say is worse than what existed in South Africa - would that suffice? What about the numerous crimes against humanity, serial violations of the fundamental principles of the UN enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Then, of course, one might say that Israel’s flagrant flouting of International Law would be sufficient, or the fact that Israel has refused to even acknowledge numerous UN resolutions, let alone abide by them, or the commission of numerous war crimes, as perpetrated during the recent holocaust in Gaza,. Wasn’t the not forgotten false flag attack on the USS Liberty in itself sufficient cause to change course? Still not enough? How about the clandestine development of nuclear weapons irrespective of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Israel refused to sign? These facts are beginning to add up - perhaps the combination of the above would be sufficient to make the case.”

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By Folktruther, March 14, 2009 at 12:23 am Link to this comment

that the Israel Lobby is bad for the Jewish community goes without saying, and it is even worse for America. It is also bad for the people of Israel.  But what I couldn’t understand for a long time is that the Israel lobby is bad for the Israel power system.  It is destroying it.

The CIA released a recent study saying that Israel will not survive another 20 years.  This is not news, Israel Zionist leaders have been saying it as well.  The policy of ethnic cleansing that is continuing is historically self-defeating.  It is worse than South African apratheid that Israel also supported.

Why pursue a policy that is doomed to defeat?  Appparently they are trapped in it.  Anarcissie has commented elsewhere that it is very difficult to change a political consensus once it is historically institutionalized. 

The American-Israeli right wing hate a peace strategy.  They conceive it as kind of a weakness.  They prefer manly violence and war, and death, to a peace strategy and survival. It is bolstered by the Jewish ideology of the Jewish Bible, which is, among other things, a war ideology.

The Israeli military historian, Martin van Creveld, a professor at Israel’s Hebrew university, wrote a recent book THE CULTURE OF WAR which essentially argued that war is a lot of fun.  He is a complete pig - he even looks like a hog- but both Israeli and American militarists loved what he said.

He believes in the Sampson Option, detailed in a book by Seymour Hirsh.  He was quoted as saying,

  “I consider it all hopeless at this point…We have the capability to take the world down with us.  And I assure you that will happen, before Israel goes under.”

This is the underlying view of the Israeli Lobby.  They identify with Jewish power to the point of prefering a Masada like exit to survival of the Israeli population and whoever else they destroy.
They train their military on the rock at Masada.

They are ideologically insane, like the deathwish Cristians as wadosy calls them.  And they largely control both parties in the United States.  They have the same attitude that Germany Nazies had when they invaded the Soviet Union or that Japan had when it bombed Pearl harbor. 

And we now live in a world with nuclear weapons.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 13, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah, March 13 at 10:22 pm #

By Inherit The Wind, March 13 at 8:16 pm #

“Whoops! Fadel really went ‘round the bend on this one! If the US is such a nasty, dirty corrupt place with only false freedom, how can you stand to have your holy God-given purity soiled by it? After all, all that nice $$$ you’re getting is being paid by those dirty Zionists, isn’t it?  How come YOU are not soiled and corrupt…”
=============================
Since you and your league of arrogant corrupted souls, like Sepharad and Shynonimous, are such lovers of democracy and freedom of speech, why then for all this long time you’ve been hiding behind fake names?! Shall I take this that you, deep in your cowardly hearts, don’t believe that there is real democracy and freedom of speech here, and that you really feel that you live in a police state, where secret police make up half of the population spying over the other half.

After all this familiarity with the courage I’ve been exhibiting in writing under my real name, hasn’t that put you to shame that all of you hypocrites had to have someone coming here from the Arab world to teach you what true democracy and freedom of speech should be in real terms.

You, ITW, are not only the ultimate cowardly, incoherent and hateful Zionist, but you’re also beyond old white trash!
*************************************************

Hey, it’s not often I get to be described as the “ultimate” anything!

If you are stupid enough to post your “real” name (so you say) on the Internet, why should I be equally stupid. It’s not a mark of bravery. 
Besides, “Fadel Abdallah” is like “Mike Johnson” a really common name. It’s not like “Heironymous Montezuma Iphigenia” which you don’t come across too often.

Cowardice?  How come YOU still can’t answer the question why the USA which you cut down at every chance, that you give NO credit to, remains YOUR home where you can preach but don’t have to LIVE according to the strict Sharia enforced in Saudia Arabia, Libya, the Taliban, Iran, or in parts of the Palestinian territories.  Meanwhile, in “devout” Syria, the slave trade in women for sex displays them all over Damascus.  Why don’t you want to life there rather than in “The Great Whore”?

Or don’t you want to admit that the US is STILL one of the best and freest places to live?

Who’s the coward “Fadel”?  I LIVE here because I love my country even when it’s been corrupted by George Botch.  If I went to another country I’d have the DECENCY to respect that nation, or I’d GET THE HELL OUT!

There’s a difference between criticism with respect and downright disrespect.

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, March 13, 2009 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, March 13 at 8:16 pm #

“Whoops! Fadel really went ‘round the bend on this one! If the US is such a nasty, dirty corrupt place with only false freedom, how can you stand to have your holy God-given purity soiled by it? After all, all that nice $$$ you’re getting is being paid by those dirty Zionists, isn’t it?  How come YOU are not soiled and corrupt…”
=============================
Since you and your league of arrogant corrupted souls, like Sepharad and Shynonimous, are such lovers of democracy and freedom of speech, why then for all this long time you’ve been hiding behind fake names?! Shall I take this that you, deep in your cowardly hearts, don’t believe that there is real democracy and freedom of speech here, and that you really feel that you live in a police state, where secret police make up half of the population spying over the other half.

After all this familiarity with the courage I’ve been exhibiting in writing under my real name, hasn’t that put you to shame that all of you hypocrites had to have someone coming here from the Arab world to teach you what true democracy and freedom of speech should be in real terms.

You, ITW, are not only the ultimate cowardly, incoherent and hateful Zionist, but you’re also beyond old white trash!

Report this

By wadosy, March 13, 2009 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad suggests i read “real books” to gain a better understanding of israel’s atrocities.

sorry, Sepharad, i dont need a book to know that it’s wrong for europeans to move to palestine 60 or 70 years ago and terrorize hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and land, so those europeans could set up their own corrupt little state which seems never to have recovered from its original sin.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, March 13, 2009 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah, March 13 at 5:57 pm #

By Sepharad, March 13 at 3:03 pm #

”... perhaps a democracy is not the best place for you.”
=============================
Here goes your bullshit again!

When I exercise my God-given right to freedom of speech and to exposing your crooked concept of democracy, you revert to the open bigotry I experience many times on these threads, about a democracy that’s not best for me. I spent 30 years of my productive life educating a better generation of this country youth that I hope will be better than the fake, arrogant, bigoted and pretentious type you represent; and yes part of my God-given mission was to expose this shamble of a democracy you’re so proud of, where presidents and congressmen and women can be bought by the dirty money of Zionism. This is the hypocrite and false democracy most valued by your types, as long as it slavishly serves the interests of your evil Zionism!

I have bad news for you, old lady, I am here to stay, and I have no plans to move but to a free and liberated Palestine! And if you don’t like it “Go and drink the salty water of the ocean, so per chance it will quench you thirst for hate and bigotry,” as an Arabic adage will put it!
*********************************************

Whoops! Fadel really went ‘round the bend on this one! If the US is such a nasty, dirty corrupt place with only false freedom, how can you stand to have your holy God-given purity soiled by it? After all, all that nice $$$ you’re getting is being paid by those dirty Zionists, isn’t it?  How come YOU are not soiled and corrupt accepting it, huh?

Why not go back to those wonderful liberated, free
nations of the Middle East?

Or is that you like COMPLAINING about how corrupt the US is, but you sure like living in it and enjoying that comfortable sin and corruption! Maybe with a nice glass of bourbon over ice or cognac straight up?  Wait! Isn’t drinking alcohol forbidden under Islam? 

Or are you a hypocrite too, while loudly telling us how holier-than-thou you are?

Need a little more bourbon, Fadel. Try Maker’s Mark over ice—it’s a little more expensive but it will put you in a happier place.

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By Sepharad, March 13, 2009 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, you are losing it. I’m not for war against Iran. If you had Hezbollah and Hamas for neighbors and had reason to believe their sponsor was on track to develop nuclear weapons you might give some thought to war against Iran. But I don’t think anyone knows what Iran has or hasn’t got, and even if they do at some point develop a nuclear weapon they’d have to be crazy to use it because they’d wipe out a bunch of Moslems too. Even themselves, depending on which way the wind blows. I have some faith in the Persians; not everyone in that country is an Ahmadinejad or a hyped-up mullah. But you know so little about Israel and Arabs that there’s no way to communicate. Suggest you read real books from various points of view, not just the Arabists, all the way back to WWI with an open mind. The great game wasn’t invented and isn’t being played by Israel alone. As far as I’m concerned, the best thing we can do is get off oil as fast as possible.

Report this

By Fadel Abdallah, March 13, 2009 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

By Sepharad, March 13 at 3:03 pm #

“... perhaps a democracy is not the best place for you.”
=============================
Here goes your bullshit again!

When I exercise my God-given right to freedom of speech and to exposing your crooked concept of democracy, you revert to the open bigotry I experience many times on these threads, about a democracy that’s not best for me. I spent 30 years of my productive life educating a better generation of this country youth that I hope will be better than the fake, arrogant, bigoted and pretentious type you represent; and yes part of my God-given mission was to expose this shamble of a democracy you’re so proud of, where presidents and congressmen and women can be bought by the dirty money of Zionism. This is the hypocrite and false democracy most valued by your types, as long as it slavishly serves the interests of your evil Zionism!

I have bad news for you, old lady, I am here to stay, and I have no plans to move but to a free and liberated Palestine! And if you don’t like it “Go and drink the salty water of the ocean, so per chance it will quench you thirst for hate and bigotry,” as an Arabic adage will put it!

Report this

By wadosy, March 13, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

and if israel is giving jews a bad name, then israel must not be good for jews, dont you think?

and how good, exactly, is israel for… say, america?

since israel is so dead set on war with iran, maybe you can explain to us how that war will be good for americans, jewish americans included.

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By wadosy, March 13, 2009 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment

“The Israeli government at the moment is carrying out policies inside of Israel that are wrong”

you want to explain how a “moment” lasts 60 or 70 years?

and i guess, since you’re limiting the “wrongness” to inside israel, anyone outside israel is fair game, huh?

...for instance, people in the west bank, gaza and lebanon.

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By Sepharad, March 13, 2009 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, If you think Voltaire is wrong I guess I’m in good company anyway.

There does exist a Zionists of America Organization but I don’t belong to it, because I don’t agree with all of their positions anymore than I support AIPAC and their positions. In fact, I’m exasperated because there was so much outcry against Freeman. He is exactly the right pick at this particular time because a Netanyahu government is going to have some unproductive ideas that should be strongly challenged from without as well as within Israel, and I think that America has a greater voice than Peace Now in Israel’s corridors of power, more’s the pity. 

I know a lot about Mossad and Netanyahu because I read a lot, because I care a lot re Israel’s survival, and Israeli intelligence agencies don’t classify their material forever, unlike the U.S. You can read in any number of “old spy” books about Mossad’s efforts to keep Netanyahu from misusing their powers and embarrassing Israel, partly because the nature of this man is not a secret Mossad necessarily wants to hide. The agency is roughly comparable to the CIA if not as cynical, is responsible for the security of Israel and its citizens. It does not make Israel any more secure to abuse its Arab citizens, engage in adventurist conflicts, and violate agreements with partners such as Jordan. Netanyahu is well known for his volatility, and though intelligent enough shoots first and thinks later. Even he realizes how he’s viewed from the outside and may try to offset this by incorporating at least one critic of his in his cabinet. Too, he is not likely to turn down Ayoub Kara for a cabinet post, who has the prestige and following to give Israeli Arabs much more clout at cabinet level. But with Netanyhu on one side and Hamas on the other I doubt much movement toward a real second state will be made. 

Reading, Folktruther, cannot be praised too much for its effect on gaining an understanding of a given subject. And I know you’re a reader because in this day and age not too many people have read the BrothersK closely enough to summon up the father’s “I did him a bad turn once and have hated him ever since.”

I can understand that most people are not sufficiently interested in Israel to follow all the history, the ins and outs of the politicians. But if they don’t, they shouldn’t pretend to speak authoritatively. (E.g., I am a mathematical and digital-highway illiterate and I’d never offer any details on the subjects other than a slight prejudice against the Internet, cells, ipods, etc for reducing time available for other important aspects of life.)

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By wadosy, March 13, 2009 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad says…

“The Israeli government at the moment is carrying out policies inside of Israel that are wrong.”

they’re “carrying out policies” identical to the policies under which israel was founded and has preserved itself…

How Israel Gives Jews a Bad Name saul landau, counterpunch

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By Sepharad, March 13, 2009 at 12:03 pm Link to this comment

Fadel, there IS one alternative to not being over 50, but I wasn’t raised in a death-loving culture. 

You should talk with some Israeli Arabs. Ask them why they didn’t want to be part of a land-for-peace trade with the West Bank. And ask Ayoub Kara why he wants to serve in a Netanyahu cabinet. There are many ways to effect change even in the worst of times, but as you can’t respect anyone but people who agree with you in every particular, perhaps a democracy is not the best place for you. Try going to Gaza; experience life under Hamas. And ask some of the people if they are living better than when Israel pulled the Jews out. Maybe you can help make Hamas a kinder, gentler ruler, one that does not round up people not in their party and shoot them in the leg for simply disagreeing. My grandmother taught me the wise adage to not curse the darkness until you’ve lit a candle.

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By Sepharad, March 13, 2009 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

diamond, Of course I know Hamas was elected because the Palestinians learned that Fatah had been corrupt. I don’t think Hamas is turning out to be any less corrupt, but who else did the Palestinians have a chance to vote for? It’s my opinion that there is no decent leadership on either side at the moment—at least if Netanyahu gets a government together successfully, and it looks as if he will be doing that—and without good leadership on BOTH sides not much progress, if any, will be made. Whatever progress IS made will come from the people on both sides, Palestinian and Israeli. It won’t be enough to change the entire landscape but if weren’t for people on both sides who WANT change things would be much, much worse.

As for talking with Hamas, it won’t make any difference because they will never recognize Israel’s right to exist and will use the ceasefires to resupply. Even so, however, I think that Israel and its allies SHOULD talk to Hamas. The Israelis can say “WE don’t recognize YOUR right to exist either, but as long as you’re iin control at the moment ...”  Beyond that I don’t know what they could say. But not talking solves nothing either.

The Israeli government at the moment is carrying out policies inside of Israel that are wrong—destroying homes in an Arab village in southern Israel for reasons that make no sense. There are Israelis who are trying to stop them, standing in front of bulldozers etc. Other Jews in and out of Israel, including me, are writing and protesting and doing what we can. When Americans lived under Bush for eight years, we were not very successful stopping his policies either but we did what we could, or at least some of us did.

Trust me: if the Israeli people hated Arabs, there long ago would have been an ethnic cleansing of the territories for security reasons. I don’t know how else to convince you or anyone here that Israelis do not hate Arabs. They’ve learned to not trust the policies of Arab LEADERS, not to trust handing over occupied land such as Gaza, and despair when the world outside does not focus on the deceptive way Hamas behaves (smuggling weapons in ambulances, produce, and all the rest: there is reality underneath Israel’s paranoia re checkpoints) but as individuals there is a lot of interaction and cooperation. Right now, relations among individual Arabs and Jews are pretty strained but they still talk to each other, still try to protect each other in many places and situations.

Israelis should have voted more heavily for Livni and I believe they would have if the elections had been held long before the stepped-up rocketing. She was ready to pull the settlers out of the West Bank even if it took a civil war to do it (and it might), and she was open to negotiating East Jerusalem.

But I don’t think Israel should negotiate without something in return, and see that money and aid given to the Palestinians is supervised so that what is given to Hamas actually does trickle down to the people who need it most. I think they should offer to exchange one live Palestinian prisoner for one live Gilad Shalit and nothing else until that is done. I think they should open the checkpoints more freely but with thorough searches done by UN soldiers from among Israel’s allies and, on the Egyptian side, by Egyptian soldiers. When there is a second state with a stable government, I believe that state should be able to have an adequately trained and armed army and police so it can defend itself from enemies within and without. 

In any case, until both sides have good leadership the situation is going to drag on and on.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 13, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

By Sepharad, March 13 at 12:50 am #

Fadel, the Gaza mother is right. Not a cent will reach the Palestinians in Gaza who need it. Any money given for the rebuilding of Gaza will be held by Hamas and doled out to its supporters, just as most of the money intended for the Palestinians under Arafat ended up in his and his cronies’ pockets.
==============================
Yes, Separad, the Gaza mother is right, but you are deadly wrong in twisting the whole essence of the truth as given in Uri Avnery’s article! The whole point of the article is that Hamas and Gaza will not receive a single penny of the so-called “rebuilding assistance,” and that all that promised money will go to the sell-out Abbas so that he and his fucken bloody group would start another civil war against Hamas and Gaza on behalf of evil colonialist Israel and its cheering evil Western powers!

In one comment, Sephared, you plead for giving you and ITW credit for your so-called moderation, and in a following comment you take the clear and straightforward points of Uri Averney article and twist them around to suite you crooked Zionist ideology.

Frankly, I question your sincerity and commitment to truth and reconciliation, and I place you at the same level of the fanatic Zionists I’ve had exchanges with in the past! Certainly, this is my final opinion about you and ITW, the few courtesies we exchanged in the past not withstanding!

You are certainly no Uri Avnery and your so-called journalistic credentials have been exposed! Since you are over 50, there is no hope for you to see the glaring light of the TRUTH, for as the the maxim goes, “You cant teach an old dog new tricks.”

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By Folktruther, March 13, 2009 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

I expect Zionists to distort what I say, just as they do wadosy, Robert or any of the other anti-Zionist truthers.  It is all they can do.  It is necessary to obscure, divert attention from, and obfuscate Israel ethnic cleansing and stealing the homes, land and country of the Palestinians.  And that’s the only way they can do it: deceit and irrationality.

Vottaire had it exactly wrong in saying that if we believe absurdities, we will commit atrocities.  What actually happens historically is that if we commit atrocities, we will believe absurdities.  We did not enslave people because we are racist; we are racist because we enslaved people.  Israel does not blow up the homes of Palestinians because they hate them: they hate them because they blow up their homes.

As the father in the BROTHERS KARAMUZOV said about an acquantance:  I once did him a bad turn and I’ve hated him ever since.

So Zionists in their cheap debating points function like the sleazoids like Limbargher, etc do.  I did not say that Sehparad was a member of Mossad, I said that she appeared to have ties to Mossad as many Zionist journalists do.  Just as American journalists have ties and sources in the CIA.  She stated on another blog what Mossad thought about the Israel election and who they supported, and expressed the hope that Mossad would intervene in the election to prevent Natanyahoo from attaining power.

This kind of obfuscation is routine with Zionists when they can’t censor anti-Zionist truth entirely.  The recent slander of Freemaqn by the Israeli lobby is a good example.  And Zionists are in the leadership of both parties, and contol large parts of the American mass media.  As Americans incrasingly understand how they have hijacked US policy, their irrationality and invective will increase.

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By diamond, March 13, 2009 at 3:07 am Link to this comment

This conference is the blind leading the blind up a blind alley. Without Hamas what is there to discuss? And the sheer hypocrisy of these so called leaders sticks in my craw. They claim they believe in democracy but the truth is they only believe in democracy if you elect people they find acceptable. Look at the inconsistent and overblown garbage that gets talked and written about Chavez. This is ridiculous posturing on the part of the people at this conference. You can’t end conflict by locking the other side of the conflict out of the room. Imagine ending a war by refusing to negotiate or to sign a peace deal with the enemy. How would that work? And Sepharad you must know perfectly well that the reason Hamas got elected was because they did take care of people in a way that Fatah did not and they have been considerably less corrupt than Fatah. If they are exactly the same as Fatah why won’t these pseudo leaders talk to them the way they’ll talk to Fatah? And wouldn’t talking to them be a good idea anyway - or might they say naughty things no one wants to hear? Sometimes it all just seems as if people never really get out of kindergarten and the helpless civilians are the ones who pay for the playacting and cowardice of the politicians. It’s time for someone to show some REAL LEADERSHIP on this issue. Mouthing the same old lies and politically correct cliches is not going to do any damn good at all and destroying Hamas is as much of a non-starter as destroying Hezbollah and the Israeli army knows that. They’re just playing games again. Fiddling while Rome burns.

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By Sepharad, March 12, 2009 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

Fadel, the Gaza mother is right. Not a cent will reach the Palestinians in Gaza who need it. Any money given for the rebuilding of Gaza will be held by Hamas and doled out to its supporters, just as most of the money intended for the Palestinians under Arafat ended up in his and his cronies’ pockets. In both cases the cause is not greed alone (though that is a factor) but because like the old Arafat-run Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah today both have to give the impression that they and no one else in the world is concerned about the Palestinian people. Averny used the term “rules” as in “Hamas rules Gaza”, which reflects the reality. To “rule” instead of to “govern” is something very different, and that is exactly what Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to do. The Palestinians have many friends—not the least many Israeli Jews as well as Arabs—but Hamas and Hezbollah are not among them.

Folktruther—people who have known Shenonymous for years on this site will know better than to accept your idiotic (and cruel) description of her. This as much as everything else you’ve said says volumes about your state of mind. Inherit is right. Fantasy-land, bizarro.

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By Sepharad, March 12, 2009 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Inherit—Yeah, it’s like talking to a wall, and am not sure why I keep doing it. Guess it was all that dumb “the truth will make you smarter and vote better” propaganda (more or less) that they brainwashed us with at the University of Missouri Journalism School, that hotbed of whatever Folktruther wants to think. (Actually, one of my professors did fight with the Haganah in the ‘48 war and lived in Israel quite awhile. Brilliant man; proud to know him. Another professor was an old, old man, John Neihardt, who spent his prime taking notes from the remaining Sioux warriors—“Black Elk Speaks” and poetry/histories regarding the Mountain Men and the Sioux of his own. So I guess I could just as easily be in Folk’s imagination an agent for the Native American underground. What I have done is worked with Native American rights groups—not as in casino stuff but as in controversies re misrepresentation of American history, rights of burial grounds to remain undisturbed, etc.)

Folk is right about some things—I do think there is worldwide anti-Semitism for the amazing reason that—ta-da—there IS, and it gives me no pleasure to say that. Even the milk-mild Norwegians are studying it with concern specifically because it’s intermingled with anti-Israel rhetoric and action to the extent that the Europeans have established a special group to study the phenomenon all by itself, though there are other anti-discrimination, anti-xenophobic, anti-Muslim groups. (Somewhere I posted the name of the book, its intro by the editor and its foreword by the Euro scholar who is that group’s representative.) Folk is also right that I think there are many people in the world who would like to see the entire Jewish population of Israel slaughtered. There are such people, and not just Hezbollah and Hamas. Who needs paranoia? Reality is scary enough.

Re the Armenians, they are not paranoid either. The genocide was real, carried out by the Moslem Ottomans as their empire was crumbling and amidst widespread chaos. It wasn’t a policy enacted deliberately and coldly. That doesn’t make it “understandable”, just different than the Nazi policy that was a major aim of the war, to eliminate not just Jews but other undesirables such as Communists, gypsies, homosexuals and Russians. After Ataturk and secular government took hold, Turkey was a different country. It would be better if they acknowledged what happened to the Armenians under the Ottomans.

Folktruther is most wrong in believing my concern for Israel somehow excludes the Palestinians. It’s not just pragmatism, though there will be no peace without justice, and not some abstract moral principle, but because the Palestinians are human beings. I know many personally, and our peoples have much in common. But there’s not much I can do other than take a stand politically and do what I think should be done, and I’ve done that all my life.

If I worked for the Mossad I wouldn’t be writing on this site—but I would be proud to work for them. In fact, they will play a role in keeping Netanyahu in line. Too bad Hamas/Hezbollah don’t have any smart people trying to rein them in.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 12, 2009 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

The sober and ever vigilant Prince of Truth and Peace with Justice, Uri Avnery, presents in the following article a realistic and pessimistic picture of Israeli-Palestinian situation!
===========================================
Rebuilding Gaza to Raze It Again
by Uri Avnery


“On TV we were shown a uniquely impressive conference, a huge assembly of world leaders, who all came to Sharm-el-Sheikh. (Remember that during our occupation of Sinai it was called Ophira? Remember Moshe Dayan saying that he preferred Sharm-el-Sheikh without peace to peace without Sharm-el-Sheikh?)
Who was not there? Chinese and Japanese rubbed shoulders with Saudis and Qataris. Nicolas Sarkozy was everywhere (Indeed, it was well-nigh impossible to take a photo without the hyperactive French president appearing in it somewhere.) Hillary Clinton was the star. Hosni Mubarak celebrated his achievement in getting them all together on Egyptian soil..
And for what? For little, poor Gaza. It has to be rebuilt.
It was a celebration of sanctimonious hypocrisy, in the very best tradition of international diplomacy.
First of all, nobody from Gaza was there. As in the heyday of European imperialism, 150 years ago, the fate of the natives was decided without the natives themselves being present. Who needs them? After all, they are primitives. Better without them.
Not only Hamas was absent. A delegation of Gaza businessmen and civil society activists could not come either. Mubarak just did not allow them to pass the Rafah crossing. The gate of the prison called Gaza was barred by the Egyptian jailers.
The absence of delegates from Gaza, and especially from Hamas, turned the conference into a farce. Hamas rules Gaza. It won the elections there, as in all the Palestinian territories, and continues to govern it even after one of the mightiest armies in the world spent 22 days trying to dislodge it. Nothing will happen in the Gaza Strip without the consent of Hamas. The worldwide decision to rebuild Gaza without the participation of Hamas is sheer foolishness.”

The full article can also be accessed at:
http://www.antiwar.com/avnery

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 12, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Below is an excerpt from the ever sober an vigilant prince of Truth and Peace with Justice, Uri Avnery, and a link to where the whole article can be accessed!
================================== 
Rebuilding Gaza to Raze It Again
by Uri Avnery

“On TV we were shown a uniquely impressive conference, a huge assembly of world leaders, who all came to Sharm-el-Sheikh. (Remember that during our occupation of Sinai it was called Ophira? Remember Moshe Dayan saying that he preferred Sharm-el-Sheikh without peace to peace without Sharm-el-Sheikh?)
Who was not there? Chinese and Japanese rubbed shoulders with Saudis and Qataris. Nicolas Sarkozy was everywhere (Indeed, it was well-nigh impossible to take a photo without the hyperactive French president appearing in it somewhere.) Hillary Clinton was the star. Hosni Mubarak celebrated his achievement in getting them all together on Egyptian soil..
And for what? For little, poor Gaza. It has to be rebuilt.
It was a celebration of sanctimonious hypocrisy, in the very best tradition of international diplomacy.
First of all, nobody from Gaza was there. As in the heyday of European imperialism, 150 years ago, the fate of the natives was decided without the natives themselves being present. Who needs them? After all, they are primitives. Better without them.
Not only Hamas was absent. A delegation of Gaza businessmen and civil society activists could not come either. Mubarak just did not allow them to pass the Rafah crossing. The gate of the prison called Gaza was barred by the Egyptian jailers.
The absence of delegates from Gaza, and especially from Hamas, turned the conference into a farce. Hamas rules Gaza. It won the elections there, as in all the Palestinian territories, and continues to govern it even after one of the mightiest armies in the world spent 22 days trying to dislodge it. Nothing will happen in the Gaza Strip without the consent of Hamas. The worldwide decision to rebuild Gaza without the participation of Hamas is sheer foolishness.
The war ended with a fragile cease-fire that is collapsing before our very eyes. In his opening speech to the conference, Mubarak hinted that it is Ehud Olmert who is now preventing an armistice (called Tadyah, or “calm” in Arabic). Nobody at the conference reacted. But when there is no cease-fire, another even more destructive war is looming. It’s just a matter of time – months, weeks, perhaps days. What has not yet been destroyed, will be destroyed then. So what is the good in investing billions to rebuild schools, hospitals, government buildings, and ordinary homes, all of which will be demolished again anyhow?
Mubarak spoke about the exchange of prisoners. Sarkozy spoke with much pathos about the soldier “Jilad Shalit,” a French citizen who all French people want to be freed. Interesting. There are 11 thousand Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. How many of them also hold French citizenship? Sarkozy did not say. It doesn’t interest him. Even in this bunch of hypocrites, he strives for championship.
The participants of the conference promised Mahmoud Abbas fabulous sums of money. Nearly $5 billion. How much will actually be paid? How much of this will actually pass through the sieve of the high-flying set in Ramallah and reach Gaza? According to a Gaza woman who appeared on television, a homeless mother who lives in a small tent in the middle of a huge mud puddle: Not a cent.
Was the political part of the performance more serious? Hillary spoke about “Two States for Two Peoples.” Others talked about “the Political Process” and “Peace Negotiations.” And all, all of them knew that these are nothing but hollow words.”

Read the whole article on:

http://www.antiwar.com/avnery

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By Inherit The Wind, March 12, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

“You have to distinguish between the two currents of thought.”

Yeah…1) is Folktruther living totally in a fantasy world or

2) Is Folktruther merely delusionally insane?

Now he has Sepharad as an agent of Mossad!  As IF! (like the kids say).  Moron! If Sepharad was an agent of Mossad, the LAST thing she’d do is advertise it. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Asylums are filled with people who create their own little alternate reality and NOTHING can convince them otherwise.  If they believe it’s sunny, they could be in the middle of a hurricane and STILL insist it’s a hot, sunny day!

Must be fun to live it such a bizarro universe.

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By Folktruther, March 12, 2009 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

Fadel- Sepharad and Inherit are both part of the Israel Lobby but are quite different types. Sepharad is a professional journalist apparently with ties to the Israeli Mossad, which many Zionist journalists have, and will back the Zionist power structure no matter how many people it murders, tortures or ethnic cleanses in other ways.

Inherit is different.  He is an adherent of princpled Zionist paranoia which for him constitutes a philosophical ideology.  Part of it is the usual bullshit of the Israeli lobby, but part of it he actually believes in.  He actually half-believes that the whole world is anti-Semitic, including most Jews, and anti-Semites are trying to raise his taxes and slaughter the Israeli population.  And anyone who doesn’t know this is a terrible ignoramus.

The reason that this is important is that this half-view is prevalent among the Jewish population.  Jews, like Armenians I suppose, are tuaght from childhood about their genocides and they being killed for no reason at all, just because of their origins.  This is part of an emotional outlook on the world, Jewish paranoia, and it is emotionally quite real.

It is of course rationally absurd in the modern world.  The people in danger are now the Palestinians, not the Jews.  But, in sopport of Israli power, Zionists have been taught to hate the Palestinians and Muslims, the emotional background for the War on Terrorism.  See for example the astonishing bigotry and racism of Shenonymous. 

Since the massacre of the Jewish population is rationally absurd, all types of crazy and absurd arguments are used to stimulate this fear and legitmate it in the Jewish population.

The point is that Sepharad is a genuine, intelligent fanatic while Inherit is just a Zionist boob.  He is a prisoner of the American and Zionist truth consensus and believes whatever the NYTimes tells him.  Anyone who opposes the violent Israeli Lobby is an anti-Semite, like myself, someone who hates all Jews.  Or like his grandfather who learned anti-Semitism in Russian socialism and made disparaging remarks about the Orthodox Jewish dingbats who wear black hats and breed enormous numbers of children.

Sehparad is very dangerous and is leading to the distruction of Isreal along with millions of other people, what Seymour Hirsh called the Samson Option.  Inherit can’t really be taken narly as seriously as a political force, and in the Jewish community can be neutralized, since the basic emotional ideology is so dingbatty.  You have to distinguish between the two currents of thought.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 12, 2009 at 4:05 am Link to this comment

Sepharad,
You may as well be talking to a wall. If you don’t want Israel destroyed and wiped out, according to Fadel that makes you a rabid Zionist.  But Fadel gets his facts so hilariously wrong so often it’s like shooting fish in a barrel!

Fadel: The allegory of Ron Paul’s fits Iraq—it doesn’t fit Israel.  Line by line, situation by situation, it’s clearly Iraq.  How you got Israel out of it is a mystery…Especially since for the US Iraq is now a MUCH bigger problem than the Israeli/Palestinian situation—thanks to George Botch.  But, I guess, anyone talks about anything within 3000 miles of Israel, and you’ll leap to the conclusion it must be ABOUT Israel.

Stealing scenarios from the entertainment industry isn’t new to Republicans—Ronald Reagan described an incident in WWII—he forgot it was from a movie he had been in, not real life.

BTW, does anybody remember watching “Amerika” but me?

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By Sepharad, March 11, 2009 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment

Fadel, re your 11:27 post, You gotta give ITW and me a little credit. We both oppose Netanyahu and his policies, and all I—and I think ITW but don’t want to put words in his mouth—want is Israel’s survival with a viable Palestinian second state plus cooperation between the two economically. If you’ll look on another thread where the discussion is Obama’s policies, I think it was today I posted that Obama’s choice of Freeman was a wise one because he will stand up to Netanyahu. ITW isn’t even a Zionist. And I’m a Zionist but you have to remember we come in all flavors: and my kind, the secular kind, wants the settlers out of the West Bank and to share Jerusalem, as Tzipi Livni wanted to negotiate. I think it’s pretty much a mess now—the Israelis who voted for Netanyahu are angry at Hamas/Hezbollah behavior and have lost trust; the Gazans who voted for Hamas were angry with Fatah’s financial corruption. So now we have the worst possible people—Netanyahu and Hamas—and the least likely to move Israel and Palestine foward. Just have to keep trying, like Peace Now, like Jeff Halpers and his people who are trying to prevent government-ordered demolition of Arab villages, and on the Arab side ... I’m sure there are some Palestinians trying to maintain their independence without violence, who want decent lives for their families, and on both sides the good people are going to have to press harder for life and reject death. Daniel Pipes does not speak for me.

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By cyrena, March 11, 2009 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

Greetings Fadel,

An rare exception (for me at least) to my usual concurrence with your postings.

On Ron Paul…I’m inclined to hold the ITW position, though not necessarily for the same reasons.

In fact, to put it simply, it’s because I ‘know’ Ron Paul to be a racist and a fraud. Anything that he might say about the Occupation actually IS ‘stolen’ from him looking at the news that everybody else paying attention has long ago known.

For instance, he had some interview or other during his failed attempt to be the president, (not the first time…but he’s a total whacko on top of being a racist) where he was talking about the Occupation of Iraq as illegal due to the fact that it had been undertaken without a UN Resolution, and he said it like he was some genius that had just figured that out. Like it was some great revelation or something.Like we haven’t known that for years. Like we don’t know the results of the Thugs’ attempts to get a resolution, which only blew up in their faces, so they proceeded without it. They were gonna do it anyway, no matter what.

But, Ron Paul decided he’d use this (for him) newly discovered knowledge to pass himself off as something that quite frankly, he is NOT!!

He scares me. I think he’s an extremist on top of being a whack job.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 11, 2009 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, March 11 at 5:05 pm #

“Yet again, Fadel, you misread and misinterpret. Ron Paul is CLEARLY talking about Iraq, not the West Bank.”

“BTW, it’s not even an original idea.  Paul stole the idea from a mini-series aired on TV in 1987 called “Amerika” about the US having come under Soviet rule—it starred Kris Kristofferson.”
============================================
You keep amazing me Inherit! I feel that the Zionist propaganda machine has assigned you to watch my posts and response to them! I feel honored that I keep annoying Zionists!

But tell me Inherit, are you implying that Paul does not have the guts to criticize and expose Israeli occupation, but he has that gut to criticize the American occupation of Iraq? And are you implying that the Israeli occupation is benign and blissful for the Palestinians whereas the American occupation of Iraq is evil?! And I notice also that in your response the issue of Palestine has become a “West Bank” one!

And you keep insisting that you’re moderate when, in fact, I don’t see how I can even compromise with someone like you!

Occupation is “state sponsored terrorism” smart al’eck, and its the most evil form of terrorism whether in Palestine or Iraq.

And finally, it’s irrelevant what you say about Paul’s article not being an original idea? And must original ideas always originate in Hollywood fictionalized entertainment garbage to have validity?! You must be living in the world of fiction to say what you said! Do yourself a favor and wake up! God’s given brain in a head is too precious thing to be wasted!

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 11, 2009 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

The following is a letter from the hardcore Zionist Daniel Pipes celebrating the efforts and praising the individuals who were instrumental in forcing the withdrawal of Charles Freeman from nomination as Chairman of the National Intelligence Council.

Fanatic Zionists forcing moderate Jews from holding responsible political positions speaks volumes about the continued control of Zionists over American politics under the Obama’s change we can believe in!

And I am sure that people like ITW will always protest when people talk about the Israeli Lobby’s control over American politics!
================================
“Dear Reader:
As many of you may know, Charles Freeman has “has requested that his selection to be Chairman of the National Intelligence Council not proceed.”
What you may not know is that Steven J. Rosen of the Middle East Forum was the person who first brought attention to the problematic nature of Freeman’s appointment, in a February 19 blog titled “Alarming appointment at the CIA.” Within hours, the word was out; and three weeks later Freeman has conceded defeat. Only someone with Steve’s stature and credibility could have made this happen.
Even those who backed the Freeman appointment acknowledge Steve’s leadership in this effort. For example:

  * Andrew Sullivan, former editor of The New Republic, calls Steve “the leader of the anti-Freeman brigade.”
  * The director of policy for the Israel Policy Forum calls him the “quarterback” of the effort.
  * Max Blumenfeld of The Nation Institute calls him “leader of the campaign against Freeman’s appointment.”

I congratulate Steve and am proud of this early achievement by the Forum’s newly created Washington Project.”

Yours sincerely,
Daniel Pipes

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By Inherit The Wind, March 11, 2009 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

Fadel Abdallah, March 11 at 4:18 pm #

It’s OCCUPATION Stupid / Smarty!

Any discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian issue that does not start with the need to end OCCUPATION, as the source of all evil, is indeed an exercise in futility! Many posters who discuss this issue normally stray away from this focal point to other minor issues that not only trivialize the root cause, but also lead to dilute the issue.

That’s why I was pleased when I read an article on ANTIWAR.COM, by representative Ron Paul, titled “Imagine an Occupied America.” This article uses simple logic and basic commonsense to address the issue to the point that stupid people can understand it. So after reading this article, I want to tell me about the level of stupidity most Congress members and Bush / Obama administration members who failed and continue to fail in understanding this simple and straightforward logic! Here below is part of Ron Paul’s article along with the link to it:
===========================================
Imagine an Occupied America

by Rep. Ron Paul

“Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian. Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles. Imagine they were here under the auspices of “keeping us safe” or “promoting democracy” or “protecting their strategic interests.”

“Imagine that they operated outside of U.S. law, and that the Constitution did not apply to them. Imagine that every now and then they made mistakes or acted on bad information and accidentally killed or terrorized innocent Americans, including women and children, most of the time with little to no repercussions or consequences. Imagine that they set up checkpoints on our soil and routinely searched and ransacked entire neighborhoods of homes. Imagine if Americans were fearful of these foreign troops and overwhelmingly thought America would be better off without their presence.”

“Imagine if some Americans were so angry about them being in Texas that they actually joined together to fight them off, in defense of our soil and sovereignty, because leadership in government refused or were unable to do so. Imagine that those Americans were labeled terrorists or insurgents for their defensive actions, and routinely killed or captured and tortured by the foreign troops on our land. Imagine that the occupiers’ attitude was that if they just killed enough Americans, the resistance would stop, but instead, for every American killed, 10 more would take up arms against them, resulting in perpetual bloodshed. Imagine if most of the citizens of the foreign land also wanted these troops to return home. Imagine if they elected a leader who promised to bring them home and put an end to this horror.”

“Imagine if that leader changed his mind once he took office.”

“The reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed Chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas. We would not stand for it here, but we have had a globe-straddling empire and a very intrusive foreign policy for decades that incites a lot of hatred and resentment toward us.”

Link to AntiWar.com to read the rest of the article!
**************************************************

Yet again, Fadel, you misread and misinterpret.  Ron Paul is CLEARLY talking about Iraq, not the West Bank.

BTW, it’s not even an original idea.  Paul stole the idea from a mini-series aired on TV in 1987 called “Amerika” about the US having come under Soviet rule—it starred Kris Kristofferson.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 11, 2009 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

It’s OCCUPATION Stupid / Smarty!

Any discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian issue that does not start with the need to end OCCUPATION, as the source of all evil, is indeed an exercise in futility! Many posters who discuss this issue normally stray away from this focal point to other minor issues that not only trivialize the root cause, but also lead to dilute the issue.

That’s why I was pleased when I read an article on ANTIWAR.COM, by representative Ron Paul, titled “Imagine an Occupied America.” This article uses simple logic and basic commonsense to address the issue to the point that stupid people can understand it. So after reading this article, I want to tell me about the level of stupidity most Congress members and Bush / Obama administration members who failed and continue to fail in understanding this simple and straightforward logic! Here below is part of Ron Paul’s article along with the link to it:
===========================================
Imagine an Occupied America

by Rep. Ron Paul

“Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian. Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles. Imagine they were here under the auspices of “keeping us safe” or “promoting democracy” or “protecting their strategic interests.”

“Imagine that they operated outside of U.S. law, and that the Constitution did not apply to them. Imagine that every now and then they made mistakes or acted on bad information and accidentally killed or terrorized innocent Americans, including women and children, most of the time with little to no repercussions or consequences. Imagine that they set up checkpoints on our soil and routinely searched and ransacked entire neighborhoods of homes. Imagine if Americans were fearful of these foreign troops and overwhelmingly thought America would be better off without their presence.”

“Imagine if some Americans were so angry about them being in Texas that they actually joined together to fight them off, in defense of our soil and sovereignty, because leadership in government refused or were unable to do so. Imagine that those Americans were labeled terrorists or insurgents for their defensive actions, and routinely killed or captured and tortured by the foreign troops on our land. Imagine that the occupiers’ attitude was that if they just killed enough Americans, the resistance would stop, but instead, for every American killed, 10 more would take up arms against them, resulting in perpetual bloodshed. Imagine if most of the citizens of the foreign land also wanted these troops to return home. Imagine if they elected a leader who promised to bring them home and put an end to this horror.”

“Imagine if that leader changed his mind once he took office.”

“The reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed Chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas. We would not stand for it here, but we have had a globe-straddling empire and a very intrusive foreign policy for decades that incites a lot of hatred and resentment toward us.”

Link to AntiWar.com to read the rest of the article!

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By Folktruther, March 11, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

The links provided by Wadosy detail the Israel Lobby’s mugging of Freeman, led by an Aipac honcho, Rosen, who is under indictment for giving US secrets to Israel.  What is apparent in this disgusting episode is that the Israeli Lobby espouses only one faction of Israel policy, what I will refer to as the violent faction.  It is in favor of war and ethnic cleansing, and despises the peace and and non-violent solutions. 

But violence provides no historical security for Israel.  On the contrary.  The West, and especially the US, is losing world power historically and the Muslim countries, along with all the developing countries are gaining it.  Israel, to survive, must make its peace with them and especially with the Palestinians.  And stop its policy of war.

Israel certainly kills and maims a lot of people in its wars, but it has been losing them since 1973.  American people don’t understand this because they don’t understand geostrategy, and the American media disguises the defeat of war aims.  But Israel power figures, including military historians like van Cleland, know this and sometimes say so publically.

The Israel Lobby appears to be championing a strategy that leads to the death of Israel: the Sampson otion.  How is that possible?  Why are they doing that?  what’s the point?

Freud at the end of WW 1 posited a death instinct in viewing what was in effect an European civil war.
He stated that the aggressive instinct, used for example in hunting, sometimes turns inward, against the person himself.  And this takes political form. 

Is this what has happened to the Israeli power structure?  Van Clealand argues in THE CULTURE OF WAR that war is often the greatest joy that warriors know and this culture is essential for an effective militarism.  Is it this war culture that has got out of hand?

The questions are crucial for Americans, because we have imported Israeli ideology and institutions in the US, including torture and arbitrary imprisonment. This is due to the large percentage of the Ameriecan ruling class, 25% to 30% who are Jewish. These billionaires provide money, media and management to both political parties.  But like the rest of the ruling class, they are mostly Conservative.

If Israel is to function through bloodshed, oppression and deceit, these values are being instilled in the American people by the Zionist learned and mass media of the ruling class. The owners of businesses who advertise are often Jewish and Zionist. They appear to support a violent policy disguised by suitable pious hopes for peace.

And this is being done in a age of thermonumclear weapons.  Both Israel and the US can increase its military advantage by the use of nuclear weapons.  but there use is offset by the loss of an ideological advantage. But if a death culture is being promoted, the short term military advantage might well come to outweigh the long term ideological disadvantage.  And the US-Israel might well attack Iran, for example, which has devastating long range implications.

To do so it is necessary to change the US intelligence estimate of Iran, which argued against Iran nueclear weapons, and this is a reason for the Zionist mugging of Freeman.  It has alarming implications for the War on Terrorism that Obama is pursuing.  The death culture is being imported into the US and is affecting both foreign and domestic policy.

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By wadosy, March 11, 2009 at 12:26 am Link to this comment

“...post-thug-regime stress disorder…”

there should be a pill for that

beer works when you’re tired of feeling sorry for the world… if you drink enough, you get a bad enough hangover to feel sorry for yourself for a few hours.

it’s a break in the monotony, but not much fun.

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By cyrena, March 11, 2009 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

No problem wadosy…

They’ll figure it out. If not, they won’t.

Thanks so much, (since I’m at it) for all of the helpful links in your posts. I’m gonna get around to setting that up someday. I’ve been waiting to snare a kid to hook me up, but they’re pretty slippery around here. So, I might have to break down and figure it out myself.

I think I’m still in the throes of post-thug-regime stress disorder.

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By wadosy, March 11, 2009 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

ooops… sorry for butting in on you, cyrena

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By cyrena, March 11, 2009 at 12:10 am Link to this comment

1 of 3

•  “Cyrena: If you believe 97% of the M/E’s problems are due to Israel, I AM disappointed.  Were I to grant that Israel shouldn’t be there, I’d STILL have to say that 90% of the problems there would be there even if BOTH Israel and the US weren’t…You think Darfur wouldn’t happen? You think the Wahabists the Saudis bribe to not blow up Saudi Arabia wouldn’t be there? You think the Shi’ites and Sunnis wouldn’t be killing each other like they’ve done for centuries?  Wake up!

OK ITW,

Allow me to retract (with sincere apologies for the lapse) my contention about the ‘percentage’ of ME troubles due to Israel. It is NEVER a good idea to throw such statistics around – at least not without properly making the case for it, which I haven’t done, and am not even prepared to do..at least not at this point in my formal work. (ie scholarly journal submissions).

Now you don’t necessarily even have to grant that Israel shouldn’t be there, because that allows for a whole plethora of views from multiple perspectives, and the point is that Israel IS there, and we’re not talking about Israel’s existence as something that should be questioned, but rather the criminal actions/ideology upon which the state was established, and the crimes that this same state continues to perpetuate to this day.

As for what would have happened otherwise, there isn’t a single historian worth her salt that would get caught in such a trap, and I’m at least worth a few grains. We can always speculate ITW, and of course we do. But I bring a different view to this conflict because I view it in terms of my field of study, and because I don’t have a personal ideological connection to the Middle East. At least not one that I was ‘born into’. Although, I DO love the area more than I can say, so maybe there is a spiritual connection of sorts. But overall ITW, I really AM a global citizen of what TAO would reference as MotherNatureHerself.

But I digress. I said that to say that in terms of an academic view, the creation of the State of Israel marked a time of one of the bloodiest Era’s in the modern history of the Middle East, and that simply cannot be denied.  Period.

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By wadosy, March 11, 2009 at 12:07 am Link to this comment

Prior to the announcement that the Freeman appointment was terminated, Max Blumenthal documented that the man leading the anti-Freeman assault was Steve Rosen, the long-time AIPAC official currently on trial for violations of the Espionage Act in connection with the transmission of classified U.S. information intended for Israel. Blumenthal also quotes foreign policy analyst Chris Nelson as follows:

Freeman is stuck in the latest instance of the deadly power game long played here on what level of support for controversial Israeli government policies is a “requirement” for US public office.  If Obama surrenders to the critics and orders [Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair] to rescind the Freeman appointment to chair the NIC, it is difficult to see how he can properly exercise leverage, when needed, in his conduct of policy in the Middle East. That, literally, is how the experts see the stakes of the fight now under way.

.
Blumethal also suggested that right-wing Israel fanatics in the U.S. are particularly interested in controlling how intelligence is analyzed due to their anger over the NIE’s 2007 conclusion that Iran had ceased its pursuit of nuclear weapons.

“It’s clear that Freeman isn’t going to be influenced by the lobby,” Jim Lobe, the Washington bureau chief of Inter Press Service, remarked to me. “They don’t like people like that, especially when they’re in charge of products like the NIE. So this is a very important test for them.”

.
Blumenthal further noted that the leader of the anti-Freeman crusade in the House, Rep.  Mark Kirk, is Congress’ top recipient of AIPAC donations.  Identically, Greg Sargent previously reported that, in the Senate, “concern” over Freeman was expressed by Sen. Chuck Schumer directly to Obama Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel.

Does anyone doubt that it’s far more permissible in American political culture to criticize actions of the American government than it is the actions of the Israeli Government?  Isn’t that rather odd, and quite self-evidently destructive?

Charles Freeman fails the loyalty test glen greenwald salon

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By cyrena, March 11, 2009 at 12:07 am Link to this comment

2 of 3

To say that the Sunni and the Shi’ites would still be killing each other like they have for thousands of years is offensive rhetoric spoken with emotion based on propaganda; not knowledge, and the context is disingenuous. The Sunni and the Shia in Iraq certainly weren’t killing each other prior to the US invasion, and we’ve been over this before – again based on what we have learned from history. Have there been religious wars between those two particular groups of Muslims? Of course. (or at least that’s been the excuse, and even that gets back to the ultimate reason for ALL geopolitical conflicts, which is about POWER! It’s not about ‘religion’, it’s about POWER.) In the case of the Sunni and the Shia, it was about who would succeed Mohammed, and that was SOOOO long ago, that Modern Muslims really have for the most part moved into a different era of thinking, just to bring themselves closer to the 21st Century that we’re in. (The US isn’t so terribly far ahead in terms of enlightened world views by the way, at least not among its majority population) Or…..at least they’re certainly TRYING, and obviously without much help from the US or Israel, since attacks by external forces can be COUNTED ON to create a civil disturbance. THAT’S THE POINT Inherit. That is the geopolitical strategy for destabilizing a country. It is ALSO the geopolitical strategy that has been employed by the West, and yes SPECIFICALLY the US, for the past 60 years or better, and specifically in the Middle East. (Though we’ve been equally active in Central and South America). There are myriad examples of this, and we’ve been through them. The US has destabilized and/or overthrown the democratically elected governments of so many places I’ve lost count. If they don’t fall to submissive colonization, then there is ultimately a revolt at some point, one that rejects the artificially imposed government. And, it provides just the exact ingredient for extremism to take hold. The extremists are like weeds that can be snuffed out easily enough if the rest of the environment is healthy. Give ‘em a space and a chaos, and it’s the opening.

The Dick Bush Administration was WELL informed on all of this, before they launched the invasion on Iraq, and since it had been planned long before, there was nothing (including all of the information about the politics and the culture of the region) that was going to interrupt those plans to invade and permanently occupy Iraq. Iran and Syria were to be next. They knew what the outcome of that invasion would be, and did it precisely with that in mind. Divide and Conquer is NOT a new concept in any war for power/control.

So I don’t wanna hear about the Sunni/Shia issue here, because it does not apply. Religious extremism (or extremism of ANY kind) will always find a way in a power void. It’s just the way things are. Still, it’s impossible to tell whether or not Wahhabism in particular could have ever gained that much of a foothold in the mainstream Islamic World. In fact, I don’t believe they represent anything in significant numbers now. (They’re like the KKK in the Muslim world, EVERYBODY hates ‘em, unless they’re one of them.  The Shi’ites are particularly fearful of them.) But if they do, it’s thanks to Western meddling.

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By cyrena, March 11, 2009 at 12:05 am Link to this comment

3 of 3

As for Sudan, it’s possible that Genocide would have occurred anyway, and specifically because of the OIL. I’ll give you that as reasonable speculation, based on the established criteria for recognizing the socio-economic components of any genocide. The long oppressed black Africans finally rose up against the power of the established Arab African power structure. And, the response was brutal. Bashir just started slaughtering them. (although, as an FYI, the rapes that occur in most genocides are NOT for the purposes of creating more of their own from mothers of the other..which is something you had suggested a while back as happening in Darfur.) Rape is used as a terror tactic, just like burning villages and all the rest. It’s intended to “terrorize to eliminate” – as in to run them off/out or kill them off…whatever it takes.  They were the same conditions as existed in the Rwanda Genocide, even though Virginia777 goes ballistic every time I voice that hard cold reality.

Pretty much the same was the issue in the Serbia-Bosnia Conflict. The parties to these conflicts may be different, and they are. But the components are always pretty much the same. So yes, they probably would have occurred anyway, but of course that’s still speculation.

However, the genocide in Darfur DOES share a common factor with the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians, and that has always been a major component of both…the control of the natural resources of the entire region. For the Israelis, it’s the OIL, the Natural Gas, and the WATER, and of course ALL of the land; though less informed will claim that it’s only about what God GAVE THEM. (which of course includes all of the water and all of the oil and all of the natural gas, and all of the fishes in the sea).

Still, it may have happened anyway,  (Darfur) even without Israel in competition for the same. Again, we speculate, because the founding of Israel changed things irrevocably for the Middle East, just as 9/11 changed us here in the 21st Century.

OH! You’re right that I SHOULD be aware of the Nixon Law and Order code, because technically speaking, I AM old enough. (I was in the 9th grade in 1968). But, keep in mind that was a different time, and it was also California, as opposed to someplace where racism was as blatantly OBVIOUS.  I didn’t personally experience that much racism in my particular area. In fact, we lived in 3 houses from the time I was born until I left home at 18, and all were within about a 10-mile radius of each other, in what was THEN at least, a totally homogenized section of the city. Jews, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and the assorted garden variety white folks. I ran into the occasional problem outside the urban areas, but I didn’t generally choose to hang out there.

Most CERTAINLY we all closely followed, supported, and mourned all the events of the CRM, but for me at least, it was via the media – which was a whole lot better at exposing the truths of our existence then than they are now. In fact, it was from watching news back in those days that I first heard about the KKK. I asked who and what they were, (having already learned what they ‘did’) and the explanation gave me nightmares, ‘cause I was sure they were gonna get me. My dad assured me that there were none in our neighborhood, (I found out later he was wrong, but that happens) but he could never say the same about the John Birchers. (there were a few of them, but they did the white flight thing early on).

More later on the Kingpins of the PNAC, since wadosy has since addressed your issue with that. I don’t think the plan of the PNAC Cabal is a “Jewish Plot” and I never have.

It does however, include a bunch of Jewish and American Israelis in the mix.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther says…

“I wonder if Israel’s power structure is in the grip of a death wish of some kind.”

the samson option seems to indicate a deathwish, especially in view of the fact that israelis seem dead set on continuing policies that will make their samson option unavoidable.

yup. suicidal behavior… but i guess you might be able to look at it as a subconscious wish to punish themselves for their immoral behavior in the founding of israel… is that possible…?

naw.

i dont know, and it’s getting to be pretty boring, watching this train wreck.

in the meantime….

.

“The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth.”

charles freeman, upon withdrawing as head of the National Intelligence Council

.

freeman’s description kinda reminds you of some performances we’ve recently witnessed here at truthdig, doesnt it?

it’s ironic that one of the people leading the “dump freeman” campaign is steve rosen, ex-poohbah at the israel AIPAC lobby… who’s been under indictment for spying for israel since august of 2005… what was all that about “immunity” and “exemptions”?

what was all that about the power of the israel lobby?


anyhow, this oughta give a shot in the arm to israel’s chances of fabricating “evidence” of iran’s nuke weapons program and passing that evidence on to the israeli american media, congress and military ...the better to con americans into another war in support of israel’s ongoing project in the middle east.

will americans stand for being lied into another of israel’s wars?

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By Folktruther, March 10, 2009 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

I think, wadosy, that we have reached the point where zionists consider anyone who criticizes Israel’s ethnic cleansing is anti-Semitic.  The thing that gets me is that, baring a complete massacre of the Palestinian population, eithnic cleansing offers no historical solution to the problem.  And independant and leading Israeli Zionists have said so.  Including Olmert.

And yet they continue.  The new right wing government announced the building of homes for anther two hundred thousand settlers to add to the nearly half million that Israel has built while pretending to desire a two sstate solution. 

the buldozing of hundreds of Palestinaian homes is already planned and is in the process of implementation.  These settlers were, largely indirectly, subsidized by the US, and most likely will be continued to by Obama.

Your comcept of ‘deathwish Christians’ to discribe the right wing End Timers is very evocative.  I wonder if Israel’s power structure is in the grip of a death wish of some kind.  They don’t seen to want to change a geostrategy that is leading to their own destruction, as well as the destruction of possibly millions of others.  Maybe its a question of win imperialist power or die. 

I’ll have to think about it more.  In the meantime the aim of Zionist thought is to either to justify the unjustificable, to obscure it, or to dsitract attention away from it.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

See cyrena?  Wadosy INSISTS everyone in the PNAC is a Jew…I thought Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney were in it too, as was Donnie Rummy.

Code words—dangerous twisting of facts.

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By diamond, March 10, 2009 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad the one thing I never give up on is people -of any nationality. They constantly amaze and inspire me with their courage and commonsense. I know it will be the ordinary people of Israel and the occupied territories who turn this thing around. Not the military or political class who are full of hubris and bigotry. But respecting the ordinary people means respecting the fact that they elected Hamas and working to get Hamas into the tent instead of locking them out. The former IRA are now sitting in the Irish parliament and minding their p’s and q’s: the same can happen with Hamas.

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment

diamond, Jeff Halper and his people are doing a lot of good things. I’m glad you are not giving up on all things/peope Israeli. Last time I was there they wouldn’t let anyone into Abu Ghosh, and my Bedouin friends said to not try yet. Please tell me you are talking about Abu Ghosh.

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

Inherit—The incoherency of the posters to whom you’re trying to respond rationally is beyond belief. In fact the comments are too twisted to even attempt to respond. wadosy can’t remember what he says and is whining about accusations of anti-Semitism from you, or me, or possibly the EU guys’ quotations I posted (maybe forgetting to put quote marks on the professor’s forward threw him off though it’s clearly id’d and prefaced); cyrena looks at wadosy’s graphs on India and doesn’t get his connection—but then wadosy isn’t very clear about anything except that he doesn’t like Israel; Folktruther wants you to stop reading the NYTimes because why? Oh yeah. Its Zionist philistinism. And recommends Harmon’s version of the history of the world—a book we decided was too simplistic for our 12-year-old granddaughter. There are days when I don’t WANT to read the NYTimes—which way out here we get a day late except for Sundays—because it pretty much runs down the troubles of the world. Today some suicde bomber in Iraq; Krugman’s column on Obama’s stimuls being too little, behind the economic curve, and speculating that if Obama goes back to Congress in September to get enough, he won’t get it. (Has anyone accused Krugman of being a neocon yet? He isn’t, but that term is floating around pretty freely. But then neocon Charles Krauthammer not so long ago wrote a column praising Obama’s efforts. So I guess Krugman, who is more skeptical of the economic possibilities, must not be a neocon.)

Also read in doleful NYT that people are frantic to negotiate a deal for Gilad Shalit’s return before Olmert leaves, even if it means trading him for hundreds of terrorists. I wish Israel would stop doing that. Last time, Hezbollah returned two dead soldiers for some really rotten live killers, one of whom had a big party thrown for him by the Syrians—Sami Kutar, now a national hero for murdering an Israeli father in front of his child, after which he smashed the 4-year-old’s brains out. Today, the father of a 13-year-old suicide bomber victim said Israel shouldn’t make the batch-of-killers trade for Gilad for the sake of all the children who might be killed by those released. “But then,” he added, “I know that if it were my child I’ve trade them Tel Aviv.” This stuff really upsets me. My darling goyisher husband says never mind, it emphasizes the value Jews in Israel place on human life. ... something that most on this site would deny. “Look at Gaza.” “Well if Hamas would stop shooting rockets and kidnapping and murdering soldiers Israel wouldn’t retaliate.” “But Hamas is the only defense the Palestinians have.” Round and round, wrong and wrong. And now some of us get to turn to the cheery task of harrying Netanyahu enough to keep him from wrecking any chance at all for the healthy states. Sheesh.

At least there is Purim to celebrate, ever mindful of that old Pesach thing about not celebrating the death of one’s enemy (only the survival of the people). I wonder what Ahmadinejad would do with Haman? Probably give him a medal, but discreetly as there are still 35,000 Jews in Persia, and a lot of Iranians are still civilized Persians.

Maybe cyrena would be less vulnerable to the tumbling and rolling by the bigoted goons here who call themselves progressives if she looked at some of the Nordic Euro’s comments in the Part II & III I sent you, on fighting the serious efforts to sneak anti-Semitism into anti-Israel discourse. Not your or my words, but theirs. But if she truly sees Israel as the biggest threat to the Middle East, there’s probably not a whole lot to discuss on that topic, which is a shame because I really like her brains, persistence, feistiness and occasional sharp humor, just like in our family.

Oh well. I’d say “Confusion to the enemy” but one of the main problems is that they already are.

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By diamond, March 10, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

It’s easy to despair on the subject of the Israeli/Palestinian divide but I just heard an inspirational Israeli named Jeff Halper who runs a group that actually goes out and stands in front of the bulldozers and also rebuilds Palestinian homes. He pointed out that when you destroy a house it’s also the destruction of a family, especially if they’re poor and have to move in with relatives. Halper said that 4,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed during the attack on Gaza but he said that even Palestinian Israelis (Israeli citizens) are having their houses destroyed in Israel itself. He said that as an Israeli Jew he has a privileged position and that he chooses to use that privilege to help Palestinians. He said that one Bedouin village in the Negev has been destroyed 18 times and that Israel refuses to issue permits to Palestinians to build so that any structure can be deemed illegal and knocked down. Mr. Halper’s words and actions shine like a good deed in a naughty world, as the saying goes. More power to him.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind says:

“Hint: Not everyone involved in that abomination called PNAC are Jews—why are only the Jews mentioned?”

at the risk of repeating myself:

“jim lobe’s definition of neocons seems kinda narrow, all right.

“that’s probably another reason to use the term “israeli americans” when you’re talking about the people lobe’s describing.

“the PNAC outfit is representative of the factions involved in the neocon project… whatever definition of neocon you prefer.

“PNAC is an alliance of: israeli americans, who seemed to provide the philosophy, leadership, media presence and salesmanship; radical christians—“deathwish christians”—who want armageddon so jesus will come back; and corporate fascists who make big bucks from wars, including bucks made by gaining access to oil in the middle east by force of arms.”

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

I have a better idea: Instead of stopping reading the NYTimes, I’ll just stop reading ridiculous arrogant ignoramuses like you…Frankly I find the Times to be a far more accurate and less biased source than YOU!

Cyrena: If you believe 97% of the M/E’s problems are due to Israel, I AM disappointed.  Were I to grant that Israel shouldn’t be there, I’d STILL have to say that 90% of the problems there would be there even if BOTH Israel and the US weren’t…You think Darfur wouldn’t happen? You think the Wahabists the Saudis bribe to not blow up Saudi Arabia wouldn’t be there? You think the Shi’ites and Sunnis wouldn’t be killing each other like they’ve done for centuries?  Wake up! 

Just like the Jews were a scapegoat for Europe’s problems in the 30’s, now they are the scapegoat for the Middle East’s problems since the 70’s.

BTW—I am AMAZED that you didn’t realize the Nixon’s “Law and Order” was part of his Southern Strategy appeal to White redneck racists pissed off at LBJ for the Voting Rights, Civil Rights, Anti-non-Miscengenation laws.  As cities were rioting in the wake of MLK’s assassination, “Law and Order” became the code phrase for suppressing Blacks…You’re old enough to know that and to have been there.  I’m also well-aware of the tricks and hand-signals and other traps used for red-lining (what you faced in your loan refusals).  My mom fought that in my home town for years.

Racism and bigotry is everywhere and is covered in code phrases and innuendo because the bigots don’t want to caught in their bigotry—and get totally discredited as a result.

So if you don’t pick up on the code phrases that Sepharad and I pick up on by the anti-semites, you can be forgiven—there are lots of tricks—just like the hand-signals.

Hint: Not everyone involved in that abomination called PNAC are Jews—why are only the Jews mentioned? To make it look like a Jewish plot, of course—that’s Wadosy’s aim and goal.  Blatant, obvious, and watch how the denials fly. 

Here’s another: the neo-cons are empire builders yet they are being portrayed as….a Jewish and Israeli plot…code words, code phrases.  Are the neo-cons traitors? Sure they are—on that we agree.  But not because they are an Israeli plot—rather because they are working for a non-Democratic empire and modern feudal society.

But it’s SO easy to twist and honest progressives like you get tumbled and rolled by them!

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By Folktruther, March 10, 2009 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment

And Inherit, about the China-India rivalry, try not to say things like that, you give Jews a bad name.  China has three or four times the GDP of India, is developing faster, and in infinitely more united.  Even with the US supporting them, India is not in China’s historical league.  They probably have another revolution to go through first.

I’ll tell you what.  Try not to read the NYTimes for awhile; its Zionist philistinism is obviously bad for you.  Chris Harmon, an idependant socialist wrote an invaluable book A PEOPLE’S HISTORY OF THE WORLD just for ignoramuses like yourself.  It will at least give you some idea that there is a world historical perspective.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

jim lobe’s definition of neocons seems kinda narrow, all right.

that’s probably another reason to use the term “israeli americans” when you’re talking about the people lobe’s describing.

the PNAC outfit is representative of the factions involved in the neocon project… whatever definition of neocon you prefer.

PNAC is an alliance of: israeli americans, who seemed to provide the philosophy, leadership, media presence and salesmanship; radical christians—“deathwish christians”—who want armageddon so jesus will come back; and corporate fascists who make big bucks from wars, including bucks made by gaining access to oil in the middle east by force of arms.

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By Folktruther, March 10, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, you ignorant dingbat.  Your grandfather made remarks about Chasidim and black hats and your dad considered that anti-Semitsm?  Hell, in that case most Jews are anti-Semitic, both in the US and Israel.  Those are the ones with a thounsand children each who spend their lives eating, praying and breeding.  (Actally that doesn’t sound like a bad way to live, except for the praying part.)  I personally have never thrown rocks at them, even though Cyrena says I have a personality disorder(she’s probably right about that) even though I’ve wanted to.

It’s no wnoder you call everybody anti-Semetic if that’s what you mean by it.  that’s differnt than Sepharad’s conception which s much more dangerous.  Of course she is much smarter than you.  As wadosy says, it is the first defense of the Israel Firsters who identify with the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

Hang in their Bertil, I like your stuff a lot.  Of course you shouldn’t specualate about the bcckground to commentaters publically, but Cyrnea, who does it all the time, is no one to talk.  Strange as it seems, most people aren’t plants, they actually believe the stuff they say.

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By diamond, March 10, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Roger Lemonde if you’re not indignant over what the neo cons did on 9/11, what they’ve done in Iraq and Afghanistan and what they’ve done to the global economy, plunging billions of people into economic hardship in the service of their criminal economic theories then you either lack a pulse or you play for their team. As for the neo cons being former liberals as one poster wrote: I don’t believe for one minute that anyone in the Bush family was ever a liberal and I know for a fact that Rumsfeld and Cheney certainly never were. The term neo con is similar, I believe, to the term ‘Neo Nazi’, meaning a Nazi with more or less the same beliefs but some adjustments made for the fact that they’re functioning in a new era. In fact, of course, none of these people are conservatives: they are reactionaries which is just a nice word for fascists. The only true use of their name is the ‘con’ because that’s what they are -conmen.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

now we have a prominent israeli calling for jews to abandon their morals in defense of israel… and he’s the founder of a think tank that is chaired by an israeli american who was recently appointed to a sensitive diplomatic position in the middle east.

so if mr ross abandons his morals while representing america in defense of israel, that ought to go a long ways towards combating antisemitism in the middle east and america, hadnt it?


apparently it’s never occurred to you that if the founders of israel hadnt abandoned their morals in the first place, israel wouldnt now be in such a pickle that it has to abandon its morals to defend itself.

it’s just another dismal perpetual motion machine, fueled by human suffering and blood.

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By cyrena, March 10, 2009 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, March 10 at 7:06 am #
cyrena:
As an intelligent, educated, experienced and worldly African-American woman, I know you fully understand and catch the nuance in “code” phrases that appear to be nothing at all but directly refer to Blacks in America.  Here are two classics:
“Law and Order”—Nixon in 1968
“Crime and Welfare”—described by a former American Nazi party recruiter as a favorite.
~*~*~
Sorry ITW,

I honestly DON’T want to disappoint you, and rest assured that as a woman of color, (most people don’t know WHAT ‘race’ I am just looking at me) I know most of the code phrases that apply to Blacks, Hispanics, and Indians. (Seeing as how ignorant people aren’t always sure, they frequently slip up, so yep….I’m used to it).

Be that as it may…no. I didn’t pick up on “Law and Order” from Nixon 1968, but I like the TV series.
Crime and Welfare sounds like something that is still consistently repeated today in reference to people of color, but I never knew that it was said by a former Nazi Party recruiter.

Meantime, since your post, wadosy has confirmed who he means by Israeli Americans, and they are the same ones that I have been specifically identifying all along. Kristol, Wolfowitz, PERLE, RUMSFELD – LIBBY, check the signatures on the PNAC yourself. I could add a few others if I felt like it, but I don’t, if only because we’ve been over this a million times, and as woman of color, (make it African American if you want, since that is always a dominant gene, wherever it exists) I am perfectly aware of racism. I’ve lived it all of my life. So yes, I DO know all of the code phrases. I even know all of the little sign language that ‘they’ use on internal forms for things like mortgage loans and other similar things, to alert themselves to when the applicant is a person of color, so that we can be immediately denied, whatever it is. In fact, I was so pissed off when I was trying to build my home in Texas, that I ended up borrowing my dad from time to time, (importing him from California) just to sic him on the racists in Texas. (They assumed him to be white like everybody else does.) It cut through a lot of the red tape.

Be that as it may, and as often as I CONTINUE to be subjected to such, I cannot, will not, immediately assume that everyone who makes a negative comment about black people is racist or otherwise speaking in code. I can generally tell the difference, because I pick it up in the comments here on this forum, even when people don’t realize that they are revealing themselves. I’ve called them out when I recognize it, and of course they never admit it.

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By cyrena, March 10, 2009 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

2 of 2

I don’t see an India connection in Wadosy’s posts as racially motivated, and I don’t get how you do either. India is a geopolitical problem in that the former US regime was willing to cut a massive ‘deal’ with India to provide them with nuclear technology and some other stuff. India is NOT a signatory to the NPT. This was happening at the same time that the hype and harassment was being stepped up against Iran, for attempting to develop a civilian nuclear program, to which they are entitled, because they ARE a signatory to the NPT. How does any of that get to be ‘code’ for anti-Israeli sentiment, aside from the fact that it has long been determined that Israel will not allow anyone besides ITSELF to have access to nuclear technology?

That doesn’t make the least bit of sense ITW, UNLESS you’re feeling a little paranoid about Israel’s illegal nuclear weapons arsenal, because clearly THAT is one of the many LEGITIMATE criticisms. So, I will revise my assessment that Israel is responsible for most of the problems in the WORLD, and clarify it to say that Israel is responsible for MOST of the problems in the Middle East….like about 97% of them.
I’ve spent lots of time in the area ITW, and not as a ‘tourist’ but as a working person, a scholar, and a researcher. I KNOW what goes on there ITW, and it’s really, really, really, BAD!!! So don’t insult my own intelligence by trying to make excuses for State behavior that is criminal. This constant connection that you’re making between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism has to cease. You are accusing people of anti-Semitism when you really should be accusing them of anti-Zionism, which I definitely am, and you know that. The founding principles of Israel are based on a racist policy. You can’t change or otherwise deny that by calling everybody an anti-Semite.

The problems in the Middle East have everything to do with Israel, and they are about nuclear supremacy, (Israel insists that NO other middle eastern nation state should be allowed access to nuclear technology) and it has been the case for decades. Israel has attacked the nuclear facilities of Iraq, and Syria, and has been poised to attack Iran for years. We know ALL of this.

And, the only reason you get opinions on that from so many people that you like to call anti-Semites, is because we know that Israel would not be such a terrorist threat to the Middle East if NOT for all of the assistance from US. So while I don’t think you intend to, you insult everybody’s intelligence by calling them anti-Semites just because they are opposed to funding Israeli aggression and slaughter. And during times like this, that is NOT unreasonable, and you should expect more of the same. For every day that Israel continues to imprison and torture Arab men, women and children, (YES THEY DO) and for every day that they continue to imprison everybody else in that open air prison set- up that is Gaza as well as the West Bank, the criticism will continue. No American (including the majority of Jewish Americans) are willing to send billions of dollars to Israel to continue murder, mayhem and the destabilization of the entire region.
It’s like mjt01 says ITW, if it LOOKS like a STATE, ACTS like a STATE, and expects to be treated like a STATE, then Israel IS a state, and should we should all be able to expect Israel to follow the same rules of State existence as every other state. You can’t tell me that Israel has, and so that’s where we’re at with that. Israel’s record is quite clear, and becoming clearer every day, thanks primarily to brave Israelis willing to speak up.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 11:40 am Link to this comment

it always boils down to the same question:

is israel good for the jews?

you whine about the increase of antisemitism as israel’s actions and their control of american policy threaten whatever remote chance we ever had of dealing with the two biggest challenges facing humanity now.

is israel good for the jews?

but maybe we’re back to the same old MO: stir up antisemitism to encourage tribal cohesiveness, and to hell with the little people who are victimized in the process.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

BTW, two things:

1) cyrena hasn’t p***ed me off in a long, long time—I respect her greatly.  She’s incredibly tough but once in a while, if she’s wrong she admits it.  She also can be funny as hell—too many people take her acid keyboard too seriously.

2)As the old saying about paranoia goes….Most Jews, even the MOST liberal, know that they can always be targets again.  One guy I knew actually went into Philadelphia, MS, right after Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman were murdered to help monitor the elections—a NY liberal idealistic Jew—he’s the one who pointed out “sooner or later you or your children will kill me or my children”.  Thousands of years of pogroms runs deep in the psyche.  It doesn’t get washed out by a civil rights bill and some grandiose statements by some politicians.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

BTW, two things:

1) cyrena hasn’t p***ed me off in a long, long time—I respect her greatly.  She’s incredibly tough but once in a while, if she’s wrong she admits it.  She also can be funny as hell—too many people take her acid keyboard too seriously.

2)As the old saying about paranoia goes….Most Jews, even the MOST liberal, know that they can always be targets again.  One guy I knew actually went into Philadelphia, MS, right after Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman were murdered to help monitor the elections—a NY liberal idealistic Jew—he’s the one who pointed out “sooner or later you or your children will kill me or my children”.  thousands of years of pogroms runs deep in the psyche.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

there’s no room for freedom of speech in american democracy, is there?

when it comes to israel, no criticism can be tolerated, even when israel’s policies are destructive of israel itself.

so now america is hitched to a group of people who’ve been exempt from criticism so long that they’ve been able to embroil america in their half-baked scheme to achieve “benevolent global hegemony” in wars that have already killed a million people.

some benevolence.

we’re spending trillions on these wars when that money should have been spent transitioning to post-oil, on education, health care, and alternate energy.

but education is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs ...on the off chance that americans emerge from that education with an ability to think…

and americans that can think are a threat to the israel lobby’s commissars who are charged with the task of telling us what to think.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 11:16 am Link to this comment

So, Sepharad,

India, which was Hindu 1500 years or more before Mohammed was born, and which has about 1 BILLION Hindus now, is somehow, like Israel, a usurpation of Moslem lands???

How’s that work? If I remember my Asian religions right, didn’t The Buddha, Sidhartha Guatama, begin preaching his break from Hinduism over a thousand years before Mohammed was conceived????

I think, as usual, lesser minds are over-simplifying very complicated regional geo-politics.  The BIG rivalry is NOT India-Pakistan—it’s India-China…DUH!!!!!  If India, as a people, decided it must destroy Pakistan, no matter the cost, the way the USSR and the US decided Germany must be destroy in 1941, there would be no Pakistan.  India could build a standing army with twice Pakistan’s total population…thankfully, despite the bad relations, that doesn’t seem to be on the horizon.

But China and India have been rivals for centuries, each despising the other, but unable to dominate the other, just like China and Russia have been unable to dominate each other since the fall of Mongol Emperors.  So…Russia (and its later incarnation the USSR) aids India…DUH!!!!!....And China, in response aids Pakistan—and Afghanistan is caught between Pakistan and Russia…See how messy it gets?  And I didn’t even GET to Iran and Iraq and Turkey and the other ‘Stans!  (I leave out Dumfukistan as that is totally a North American tribal population of European descent).

Simple neo-con or neo-Marxist “analysis”, like Cold War thinking simply isn’t sophisticated enough to untangle all these webs of power, influence and rivalry.  The internal politics of each nation don’t really matter much because that’s not what it’s all about.

I haven’t untangled it all, but the more Wadosy reveals, the more I stand by my assessment of a trolling bigot that tunnel-visioned…like FT..are taken in by.  Someone said Non Credo got banned and is posting under another name, and, I wondered if Wadosy is N/C.  But I don’t think so—-N/C was a heckuva lot smarter and more subtle.  Better writer, too.

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

cyrena, thanks for the info on Serbia/Bosnia. As I recall, I took the word of the Bosnians and humanitarian agencies re numbers, mass graves etc and should have known better.

re the bill and monica show, I agree with you: private life is private life. My only problem with it was that the situation and the resulting circus had to be major distractions, and possibly contributed to matters of consequence being overlooked or hastily dealt with.

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Inherit—PART III, continued from Part II’s quote of book’s foreword:

Anti-semitism is prevalent throughout the whole political spectrum, not only those holding racist worldviews, rightwing extremists and fervent critics of capitalism and globalization (which more often than not is closely linked to anti-Semitic stereotypes), but also anti-Semitic statements constantly surface in the mainstream. Anti-Israel and sometimes anti-Semitic sentiments permeate the political discourse on Israel and the Middle Evast even among liberal, democratic politicians and maintream press.

Then-Swedish Prime Minister’s Olof Palme’s labeling Israel a Nazi state was only one of the more obvious manifestations of this new anti-Semitism. ... The inclinations and patterns here should be regarded as serious. It is the merit of this volume [of essays and research summaries] to put the spotlight on under-reported phenomenon that occur too close to what we see as our consensual political discourse for them to be ignored or trivialized. 

    ****************************

So you see, you aren’t paranoid after all, unless paranoia is defined as a heightened sense of reality, and not overly dramatic unless the tranquil Nordics and Euro researchers can be accused of being overly dramatic. Not that this is any great comfort, but at least there is recognition of the appalling reality among numerous academics and researchers in Europe and it shouldn’t be too long before American academics pick up on it.  (The book’s essays and research were NOT commissioned by AIPAC or wicked Zionists—not that TDers understand what zionism actually is, nor the radically different political and social concepts within it—but a concerned branch of the good old stodgy European Union.)

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

here’s a little list of israeli americans.

this appears in an article written by a jewish american, jim lobe…

“Contrary to appearances, the neoconservatives do not represent a political movement, but a small, exclusive club with incestuous familial and personal connections.

What do William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Abrams, and Robert Kagan have in common? Yes, they are all die-hard hawks who have gained control of U.S. foreign policy since the 9/11 attacks. But they are also part of one big neoconservative family — an extended clan of spouses, children, and friends who have known each other for generations.

Neoconservatives are former liberals (which explains the “neo” prefix) who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global supremacy, which includes a close strategic alliance with Israel.”

All in the Neocon Family

 

the following is from haaretz, a leading israeli newspaper

“In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history.”

White man’s burden


and again, walt and mearsheimer

the Lobby’s campaign to quash debate about Israel is unhealthy for democracy. Silencing sceptics by organising blacklists and boycotts – or by suggesting that critics are anti-semites – violates the principle of open debate on which democracy depends. The inability of Congress to conduct a genuine debate on these important issues paralyses the entire process of democratic deliberation. Israel’s backers should be free to make their case and to challenge those who disagree with them, but efforts to stifle debate by intimidation must be roundly condemned.

Finally, the Lobby’s influence has been bad for Israel. Its ability to persuade Washington to support an expansionist agenda has discouraged Israel from seizing opportunities – including a peace treaty with Syria and a prompt and full implementation of the Oslo Accords – that would have saved Israeli lives and shrunk the ranks of Palestinian extremists. Denying the Palestinians their legitimate political rights certainly has not made Israel more secure, and the long campaign to kill or marginalise a generation of Palestinian leaders has empowered extremist groups like Hamas, and reduced the number of Palestinian leaders who would be willing to accept a fair settlement and able to make it work. Israel itself would probably be better off if the Lobby were less powerful and US policy more even-handed.

The Israel Lobby

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Inherit—PART II - See “Behind the Humanitarian Mask: The Nordic Countries, Israel and the Jews” by Manfred Gerstenfeld. His intro: “It is likely that, because of future global developments, clearer perspectives will emerge on the double standards of many members of Nordic elites toward Israel and Jews. In rapidly changing times,it is important to document situations at a given moment then in the future no one will be able to say “we did not know” about the extreme bias being promoted in their name by some of the elites of these societies. As will be shown in this volume, the information on the significant anti-Semitism—to a large extent disguised as anti-Israelism—was there and can be largely gleaned from these countries’ media.”

The Foreword is by Professor Gert Weisskirchen, personal representative of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and Chairman-in-office on Combating Anti-Semitism:

The truth about these problems is the psychological and rhetorical entanglement of criticism of the State of Israel with anti-Semitism. Analyses show that the projection of anti-Israel sentments on Jewish communities is a widespread pattern throughout Europe. This phenomenon was clearly international during the Israel-Hezbollah war in ‘06 and was meaningful in both organized and spontaneous violence against members of Jewish communities throughout Europe.

In light of this continued prevalence of anti-Semitism in our societies the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has called attention to anti-Semitism as a distinct phenomenon threatening not only our Jewish fellow citizens but also our democratic and human rights values. As an outcome of the 2004 OSCE Conference on Anti-Semitism in Berlin, the mandate of the personal representative of the OSCE chairman-in-office in Combating Anti-Semitism was created alongside of two similar groups: Combating Racism, Xenophobia and Discrimination, and Combating Intolerance and Discrimination Against Muslums. ...

This underscores the reality that anti-Semitism is a distinct phenomnenon requiring a separate focus in OSCE. ...

My experience of three years shows that fulfilling this charge is often difficult. Anti-Semitism is easy to detect in external racist groups but it can also be subtle in, e.g., some elements of academic discourse on the Middle East conflict in which a clear pro-Palestinian bias is observabloe and anti-Semitic stereotyhpes are subtly and on first look often indiscernibly invoked.

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Inherit—PART II - See “Behind the Humanitarian Mask: The Nordic Countries, Israel and the Jews” by Manfred Gerstenfeld. His intro: “It is likely that, because of future global developments, clearer perspectives will emerge on the double standards of many members of Nordic elites toward Israel and Jews. In rapidly changing times,it is important to document situations at a given moment then in the future no one will be able to say “we did not know” about the extreme bias being promoted in their name by some of the elites of these societies. As will be shown in this volume, the information on the significant anti-Semitism—to a large extent disguised as anti-Israelism—was there and can be largely gleaned from these countries’ media.”

The Foreword is by Professor Gert Weisskirchen, personal representative of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and Chairman-in-office on Combating Anti-Semitism:

The truth about these problems is the psychological and rhetorical entanglement of criticism of the State of Israel with anti-Semitism. Analyses show that the projection of anti-Israel sentments on Jewish communities is a widespread pattern throughout Europe. This phenomenon was clearly international during the Israel-Hezbollah war in ‘06 and was meaningful in both organized and spontaneous violence against members of Jewish communities throughout Europe.

In light of this continued prevalence of anti-Semitism in our societies the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has called attention to anti-Semitism as a distinct phenomenon threatening not only our Jewish fellow citizens but also our democratic and human rights values. As an outcome of the 2004 OSCE Conference on Anti-Semitism in Berlin, the mandate of the personal representative of the OSCE chairman-in-office in Combating Anti-Semitism was created alongside of two similar groups: Combating Racism, Xenophobia and Discrimination, and Combating Intolerance and Discrimination Against Muslums. ...

This underscores the reality that anti-Semitism is a distinct phenomnenon requiring a separate focus in OSCE. ...

My experience of three years shows that fulfilling this charge is often difficult. Anti-Semitism is easy to detect in external racist groups but it can also be subtle in, e.g., some elements of academic discourse on the Middle East conflict in which a clear pro-Palestinian bias is observabloe and anti-Semitic stereotyhpes are subtly and on first look often indiscernibly invoked.

(continued)

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By Sepharad, March 10, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

Inherit—You are NOT being oversensitive or paranoid, but cyrena means well and respects you (though even she believes Israel is responsible for 51% or more of the world’s problems). The code words are all over the place on this site, subtle or blatant.

An old ACLU hand once physically restrained a lawyer I was working with—ironically a short-fused Jewish guy—who was ready to leap over a table and punch out a racist judge for ignoring his objections repeatedly. But you can’t call the JUDGE racist (or anti-Semitic)—doesn’t do any good—just keep on objecting to every lie.

Today, anti-Semitism underlying anti-Israel rhetoric is over the top, not just on TD but even in milk-mild places like the Scandinavian countries. (In Part II I’ll give you a source on that particular topic, a study put together by an EU offshoot specifically formed to get a handle on it. The Euros have as much of an anti-Semitic/Israel problem as we do in the U.S. but some of their leaders have seen it all before, and now that it’s reached dangerous levels they want to raise awareness and get a handle on it because they know the consequences of idiocy/fascism don’t just affect Jews.)

I clicked, just for the hell of it, on wadosy’s most recent links and found, intended to be illustrative of the AEI/Israel/EXXON/WeeklyStandard plot, were aerial photos of some blocks in Washington DC in which suspect buildings are located (American Enterprise Institute, the Department of Treasury, the Weekly Standard offices and other real estate). Some case, unless guilt-by-proximity is somewhere in our Constitution.  I suppose a photo of the Brookings Institution and neighboring buildings could be made out as a nascent Commi plot, or a photo of some kibbutz to illustrate the dangers of creeping socialism. The other link—a map of the region before and after a PNAC plot. Israel is there but nearly invisible on the map, proving that its influence is astonishingly potent relative to its size and hence potentially and catastrophically dangerous.

Most surprisingly, in wadosy’s mind, the ancient country of India has now join the ranks of Zionist conspirators. (It’s rooted, you see, in the longtime colony of Bombay/Mumbai Jews who conspired with the Hindu Nationalists to bring down the Muslims whose claim on Indian soil is ancient but most of whom were driven out when the departing Brits gave their last viceroy a ridulously short time to draw the lines defining the partition Mr. Sinla forced Nehru into accepting and broke Ghandi’s heart. Sound familiar?) So: wadosy somehow KNOWS that once Israel has looted the U.S. and America collapses that India will be the next sacrificial lamb. I think India can probably defend herself if she keeps on her current educational and technological trajectory. But based on his growing case against India, perhaps wadosy is a Muslim who is either deranged or viscerally hates India for the same reason other Near East Muslims hate Israel—i.e., all of the education and technology and openness both these countries offer make it harder to keep Muslim minds in the vicinity closed.

No one on this site has been as critical of specific Israeli actions and policy drifts as I have all my life, whether in Israel or in this country, which is my home. And I’ve been just as critical and worked as hard, actually harder, for change in this country most of my adult life. The difference between me and wadosy et al is that I only criticize what’s actually wrong, whether in terms of morality or what is the best interests of each country. But the biggest differece is that I honor the many good things about America and Israel. Now, as the fires are being started in India’s direction, I’ll pay more attention to reporting out of India, as all of my knowledge of that lovely country is what I’ve learned from Indians who are here, as well as from books by everyone from Tariq Ali to Brit historians.

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By Rodger Lemonde, March 10, 2009 at 7:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The comments here demonstrate why many didn’t give a damn. They were bound up in knots with their own little worlds of indignation, and conspiracy theory.

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 5:32 am Link to this comment

here’s the map of the israel exxon AEI plan as it now stands.

...and by the way, did anyone ever figure out what happened to the dancing israelis’ videotape…? ...or did mr chertoff dispose of it?

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By wadosy, March 10, 2009 at 5:27 am Link to this comment

“israeli americans” are people like perle, kristol, wolfowitz, and the rest of the likud gang that hangs out at AEI/PNAC/weekly standard neocon headquarters at 1150 17th St NW in washington dc, who are willing to bleed america dry in defense of israel.

india seems to have committed to the PNAC project, which will decapitate pakistan, thus eliminating the threat of pakistani nukes to israel and india, and also eliminate pakistan’s shared border with china, thus eliminating the possibility of iran’s natural gas being piped to china and escaping PNAC control.

pakistan has decided to go ahead with the iranian pipeline project without india, which puts more pressure on the PNAC operation in aghanistan and pakistan.

the transition to indian protectorship, as america is looted and collapses, is complicated by the purely merc looters, who are draining funds that should be used to purchase india… not to mention the cost of arming india to the extent that the PNAC project can be continued with india military.

interesting times.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 10, 2009 at 4:06 am Link to this comment

cyrena:
As an intelligent, educated, experienced and worldly African-American woman, I know you fully understand and catch the nuance in “code” phrases that appear to be nothing at all but directly refer to Blacks in America.  Here are two classics:
“Law and Order”—Nixon in 1968
“Crime and Welfare”—described by a former American Nazi party recruiter as a favorite.

So when Wadosy uses: “i guess it’s possible that israeli americans can loot enough out of america to buy india, which will then assume the role of israel’s protector.” 

I’m AMAZED you cannot see that he’s referring NOT to Americans of Israeli descent but rather Jews in America who support Israel’s existence.  This is as flat-out obvious an anti-semitic statement as those “Obama Bucks” food stamps and watermelons on the WH lawn were racist.  He might as well have used that ex-nazi’s fav for Jews “International Finance”.

(Notice also his dig at India—a nation that in the technological and educational world is racing past us with breakneck speed—I work with many Indian and Indian-American colleagues and they can be VERY impressive—including my current boss.)

Please don’t disappoint me by showing me you are only sensitive to slurs and code phrases referring to African-Americans and not to others.

(BTW, that ex-nazi recruiter lives every day in fear his former pals will murder him. I don’t remember if he was on 60 Minutes or NPR—I think it was ATC).

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By diamond, March 10, 2009 at 1:08 am Link to this comment

Gold Star Father why waste your time talking to Bertil? Why don’t you inform yourself on what the fire engineers themselves have said? Some of these people were actually threatened with the loss of their jobs if they didn’t shut up and stop talking to the papers. The fact that the steel went to Staten Island before it was ‘recycled’ proves absolutely nothing. The people who needed to look at it, who were trained to examine it, did not look at it. If they had, I hardly think the editor of ‘Fire Engineer Magazine’ would have written an editorial complaining that the ‘evidence’, namely the steel, was being removed from the site - as you’ve, in fact, admitted it was. And it was ‘cut’ or ‘cracked’ by explosives into the right length to go on the back of trucks. I can’t help finding this a little bit suspicious! There is a mountain of evidence, some of it from experts in the fields of engineering and physics and also experts in demolition who know perfectly well that the version of events put out by the Bush administration is scientifically impossible. But you don’t even need to be an expert: you only need to use your eyes to know those buildings didn’t collapse, they were demolished. I’ve read a book by a survivor who was in one of the towers and she describes explosions going off repeatedly as she tried to escape down the stairs and out of the building. In fact,one of the first things she heard was not a plane hitting the building but an explosion and people shouting ‘It’s a bomb! Get out! and there were ‘countless’ explosions after that, according to her. She saw rooms full of shattered glass and splintered office furniture. In one of the lobbies of the towers huge slabs of marble were blown off the walls by the explosions. The whole 9/11 story is a case of ‘You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time’.

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By cyrena, March 10, 2009 at 1:06 am Link to this comment

1 of 2
Inherit to Wadosy (I always find myself wanting to put an extra ‘o’ in there, maybe because that’s how a pronounce it in my own linguistic translation..Wadoosy. It has a nice ring.
Anyway, on this from ITW to Wadosy,
•  “If that was my objection to your posts I’d agree with you—but it’s not.  You consistently use code phrases for ANY Jew who’s even vaguely sympathetic to Israel—in fact, anyone who doesn’t call for Israel’s immediate destruction is described by you as part of a traitorous international Jewish plot.
then,

•  “Don’t give me this $#it that YOU are not anti-semitic—you are hiding behind LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israel, even more extreme critics to mask your fundamental hatred of all things Jewish.  You try to drown EVERY thread with this again and again.”

ITW
Now I know you haven’t asked for my opinion or anything, BUT…you know I’m saying this in the sincerest of good faith, and not as a smart ass, (at least not this time). That is, I think you are being over dramatic here, which you pretty much acknowledged already when you posted what you would agree with, if not for the other stuff that you’re complaining about.

You say wadosy constantly uses ‘code phrases’ for ANY Jew who is even vaguely sympathetic to Israel, but I’ve witnessed nothing of the sort ITW. If they are ‘code phrases’, then I’ve missed them, and it seems like I’d recognize them, having studied this issue of Jewish influence in the US political landscape, because no one in the right mind would deny that such exists.

And in terms of the Jewish Lobby influence on US politics, the statistical proportions, (percentage of Jewish American population to the percentage of ‘influence’ perpetuated) are so staggeringly out of balance as to create predictable catastrophe, which is what we have now, and have had for some decades now, as this ‘influence-proportion’ ratio has continued to skew out of control.

Yes, there are fanatics here (Folktruther among them) who would like to blame Israel and AIPAC for absolutely EVERYTHING wrong in the world. It’s bullshit rhetoric, and I most sane people are not about that. The thing is, Israel is to blame for the majority of it, even if that’s only 51%.

So the reality is that 99% of the criticisms voiced against Israel and AIPAC - ARE LEGITIMATE-, and none of what wadosy has posted in those respects has NOT been a LEGITIMATE criticism of Israel. They are as legitimate as any criticism against the former thug regime, and they are as legitimate as my criticisms of the al-Bashir regime in the Darfur Genocide, and I’m glad to see that the ICC has acted, even if it’s only a baby step.

So what ‘code phrases’ are you talking about? Because we should at least all have a general idea of what we each mean in terms of whatever code phrases you’re talking about. Terms such as “The Israel Lobby” or Zionist, or Jewish, or similar identifiers are gonna be used in the conversation, because we have to call things what they are.

(I’ve always had a minor obsession about that, like when the kids were little and learning how to talk. I didn’t ever go for the baby talk. A penis was a penis, and NOT a ‘wee- wee’ or whatever the hell other kind of stupid names people come up with for identifying parts of their body. I figured they could always learn the slang later, but that it would be a good idea to know the accepted terms for these things.)

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By cyrena, March 10, 2009 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

2 of 2

Anyway ITW, I think you’re being a bit paranoid and dramatic here. I think I understand why, and I emphasize with you. I really do, because you DO have a difficult case to defend. It’s not personal, but it is the way it is. There are THAT MANY “LEGITIMATE” criticisms of Israel,-AS A STATE- and you can’t resort to calling everybody who voices them an anti-Semite.

Or, I suppose you CAN, but it definitely doesn’t help anything, which is why it’s true that the whole ‘anti-Semite’ accusation is built into the overall political strategy behind The Lobby and its associated projects. The strategy ALSO contains a whole lot of misinformation propaganda dispersion.
In the long run, it doesn’t help to remain in denial to all of this information, even though I know there’s been an extra abundance of it in recent years. It’s just that this stuff needs to be seen in the public discourse, and in the light of day. And we have to use words that actually apply. The anti-Semite stuff is simply too old and lame to have any traction. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but you have to actually give evidence of such. Claiming code phrases isn’t evidence.

Another mother-in-law type reminder (even though I’m not Jewish)…don’t let Folktruther get you in a snit. He DOES twist everything, intentionally for the purposes of getting you/me/anybody in a snit. I suspect a personality disorder. Just don’t take the bait.

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By cyrena, March 9, 2009 at 10:59 pm Link to this comment

By Gold Star Father, March 9 at 10:39 pm

Gold Star Father,
I think you should feel free to report “Bertil” to the TD administration. He’s been this offensive before, so it probably wouldn’t be a first. Maybe I’ll do it now, for whatever it’s worth. I don’t know how to do anything other than to click the ‘report this’ button, so I’ve never attempted to contact the TD admin directly or in any specificity.

Still, the insult you cited from “Bertil” is just another one of the many inexcusable(s) that happen. For the most part, addressing these offenders generally results in a ‘freedom of speech’ argument that gets boring.

Still, we have to start speaking up against people like this in the public discourse, and calling them on this shit. Peer pressure works best.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 9, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

He has accused me of hating Jews when I, my family and all of my relatives are Jews.  It’s quite true that I hate many of my relatives, especially the rich ones, but because they are pigs, not because they are Jews.  His dad accused his own grandfather, who was a Menshevik in Russia, of being anti-Semetic, probably because he was anti-Zionist.
**************************************************

Folktruther you twist everything SO much I’ll bet you cannot walk a straight line stone-cold sober, going in corkscrews down it!

My father didn’t “accuse” his dad of being anti-semitic (Dad in his youth was even “lefter” than his dad) but simply stated it as a fact. “My father was the most anti-Semitic Jew I ever saw.  He hated the Chasidim and the other black hats, and would make comments about them.”  My dad had a warm and loving relationship with his dad and had the same with HIS sons. No “accusations” (what a value-laden word!) I missed knowing my granddad because he died before I was born, as my dad passed before my youngest was born.

Watch out, FT—Wadosy will turn on you.  I guarantee it. 

So at least get your facts straight

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By Gold Star Father, March 9, 2009 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Bertil, March 9 at 1:24 pm says:
“This is a beautiful example of the perps, the “shadow government” trying to interject some doubt in a previously unquestioned series of events by lying.  The monker, Gold Star Father and the BS about being a military pilot tries to impose some level of credulity.”

Give me your legitamacy “Bertil”. Try and do it with out your shitty insults. Or did you mean to call me “moniker”, not monker. If you mean to call me a monkey fucker—I ask you to explain.

  I would invite you to my house to engage in some meaningful dialog. You could see my truthfulness. Would you care to see evidence of my pain, my experiences? Would you even bother to do so? Is anonymous shouting of insults in all directions your only weapon for the crimes upon us and the rest of the world?

  I suspect that I have received far more BS than you, but I don’t wish to measure. I lost my only son and my sense of country due to the events of the past 8 years. What do you bring to the table?

  Tell me. I want to hear.

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By Folktruther, March 9, 2009 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

Don’t worry about Inherit, wadosy, anti-anti-Semitism is part of his religion.  Just as anti-Semitism was part of the Christian religion for most of its history, anti-anti-Semitism appears to have been inherited in the Jewish religion.  Indeed, this ideological paranoia appears to be one of its main tenets.

He has accused me of hating Jews when I, my family and all of my relatives are Jews.  It’s quite true that I hate many of my relatives, especially the rich ones, but because they are pigs, not because they are Jews.  His dad accused his own grandfather, who was a Menshevik in Russia, of being anti-Semetic, probably because he was anti-Zionist.

You are quite right that it serves a political purpose.  But I was astonished to find out that it was quite sincere, like anti-Semitism.  Both part of the preconceptions and presuppostions of different religious traditions.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 9, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, March 9 at 4:55 pm #

Inherit The Wind says…

  “isn’t it clear to you that this is a racist bozo?”

here’s a little shoe for you to try on…

  No discussion of the Lobby would be complete without an examination of one of its most powerful weapons: the charge of anti-semitism. Anyone who criticises Israel’s actions or argues that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle Eastern policy – an influence AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of being labelled an anti-semite.

  Indeed, anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-semitism, even though the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In other words, the Lobby first boasts of its influence and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it. It’s a very effective tactic: anti-semitism is something no one wants to be accused of.

  The Israel Lobby John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
************************************************

If that was my objection to your posts I’d agree with you—but it’s not.  You consistently use code phrases for ANY Jew who’s even vaguely sympathetic to Israel—in fact, anyone who doesn’t call for Israel’s immediate destruction is described by you as part of a traitorous international Jewish plot.

Don’t give me this $#it that YOU are not anti-semitic—you are hiding behind LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israel, even more extreme critics to mask your fundamental hatred of all things Jewish.  You try to drown EVERY thread with this again and again.

And Folktruther is too deaf, blind and stricken with tunnel vision to see it, since you attack his favorite target: Israel.

Told you I’d be attacked by the usual suspects.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 9, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

wadosy, March 9 at 4:55 pm #

Inherit The Wind says…

  “isn’t it clear to you that this is a racist bozo?”

here’s a little shoe for you to try on…

  No discussion of the Lobby would be complete without an examination of one of its most powerful weapons: the charge of anti-semitism. Anyone who criticises Israel’s actions or argues that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle Eastern policy – an influence AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of being labelled an anti-semite.

  Indeed, anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-semitism, even though the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In other words, the Lobby first boasts of its influence and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it. It’s a very effective tactic: anti-semitism is something no one wants to be accused of.

  The Israel Lobby John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
************************************************

If that was my objection to your posts I’d agree with you—but it’s not.  You consistently use code phrases for ANY Jew who’s even vaguely sympathetic to Israel—in fact, anyone who doesn’t call for Israel’s immediate destruction is described by you as part of a traitorous international Jewish plot.

Don’t give me this $#it that YOU are not anti-semitic—you are hiding behind LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israel, even more extreme critics to mask your fundamental hatred of all things Jewish.  You try to drown EVERY thread with this again and again.

And Folktruther is too deaf, blind and stricken with tunnel vision to see it, since you attack his favorite target: Israel.

Told you I’d be attacked but the usual suspects.

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By cyrena, March 9, 2009 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad,


“intervening in Serbia to stop mass murders of Moslems;”

~~~~~

This ‘intervention’ was as illegal as it gets, done by the Clinton’s without approval from the UNSC, and in defiance of UN resolutions already in place to deal with that conflict.

There was also a hoax to twist the facts and the statistics of the conflict at the time, and it was later discovered that while there was certainly carnage and yes, GENOCIDE, it wasn’t nearly at the numbers that were being quoted until AFTER Clinton ‘intervened’.

Bottom line on the ‘intervention’ into the Bosnia conflict: It was just another exercise of unbridled US imperialism and aggression. It was also handy in detracting from what was then Clinton’s adulterous activities. (which quite frankly, were nobody’s business but his, hillary’s and monicas) But, a whole lot of people died unnecessarily, just to detract attention from it.

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By Folktruther, March 9, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, stifle yourself.  It is obvious that wadosy isn’t racist or anti-Semitic, he is very intelligent and knowledgable, and has thought a lot about the matter.  However there is a simpler explanation for Israli hypernationalism.

Fascism occurred in Italy and Germany because they were both late in unifying their parts into one nation.  Therefore a hypernationalism develooped to historially integrate all the parts and this included a verilent militarism.

Israel had to integrate Jews from all over much of the world so it developed the same sort of hypernationalism and militarism historically.  Indeed, it did so to the extent that it identified with imperialism and ethnic cleansing to a concern for its own security.

It identified with the power of Jewish nationalism even over its identification with the Jewish people.  As illusstrated by its treatment of Finklestein, Falk, Sabin, etc

this hypernationism was encoraged by Amereican Jews, especially American billiionaires who were veery powerful.  The same kind of powerful plutocrats that brought Hitler to power in Germany.

This hypernationalism is destroying Israel, as many of the Israli powerful have stated publically, including the gonif Olmert.  But the hypernationalizs consensus is so strong that they dispair of challenging it.

And the US encourges it to have a proxy in the mideast.

What’s the historical solution?  I don’t know.  But the only defense for the Palestinians now is Hamas.

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By diamond, March 9, 2009 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

The neo cons planned 9/11 and the military experts carried it out but anyone who thinks the neo cons are gone or that they don’t have 9/11 act 2 up their sleeve should pay attention to what’s happening with bird flu. Bird flu vaccine, Tamiflu, was created by Gileal, a company of which Donald Rumsfeld was CEO before he became secretary of defense.He was on the board until 2001 and had been with Gileal from its establishment in 1987. Rumsfeld made $5 million dollars in capital gains on his stock in Gileal after the bird flu hysteria was unleashed in the media. It was all based on whether or not the bird flu would mutuate and spread human to human and Bush announced in 2005 that he would send the army into cities hit by bird flu, thereby putting parts of the US under martial law. The year before the media took up the bird flu hysteria (2003) Gileal made a loss. Gileal outsourced production of Tamiflu to the Swiss company, Roche. In view of all this the latest development on Tamiflu is ominous and bears the hallmark of neo con forward planning. This is part of a report from the Toronto Sun by Helen Branswell:

‘The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses. And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.
“At this juncture we are confident in saying that public health and occupational risk is minimal at present,” medical officer Roberta Andraghetti said from Copenhagen, Denmark. “But what remains unanswered are the circumstances surrounding the incident in the Baxter facility in Orth-Donau.”
The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.

Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event. On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.
“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.
The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic. People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted. Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.

While H5N1 (bird flu) doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people.That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created.’

Someone should keep an eye on this. I don’t think it’s an ‘accident’ at all. While you argue about their past crimes they’re already planning your future.

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind says…

“isn’t it clear to you that this is a racist bozo?”

here’s a little shoe for you to try on…

No discussion of the Lobby would be complete without an examination of one of its most powerful weapons: the charge of anti-semitism. Anyone who criticises Israel’s actions or argues that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle Eastern policy – an influence AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of being labelled an anti-semite.

Indeed, anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-semitism, even though the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In other words, the Lobby first boasts of its influence and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it. It’s a very effective tactic: anti-semitism is something no one wants to be accused of.

The Israel Lobby John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

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By Inherit The Wind, March 9, 2009 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, March 9 at 3:27 pm #

I’m sorry, wadosy, I can’t follow the arguement. Israel is obviously dependant on the US, but how is the US dependant on Israel becaue of peak oil?
***************************************************

Of course not. How can you follow the argument of a flat out bigot, who keeps posting this neo-nazi blather just DARING TruthDig to cut him off?

This isn’t a progressive or even a “progressive”.  This is either someone of Middle Eastern background or a denizen of the racist websites.

Where do these clowns come from? FT, you know I think you’re full of $#!t 99% of the time, and you think about the same as me, but isn’t it clear to you that this is a racist bozo?

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

saudi oil production

baker hughes rig count saudi arabia 1/3/2002-1/3/2007

global rig count 1989-2007

current rig count, by country baker hughes via upstream online

oil production since 1997 world: table 1.1d, saudi: table 1.1c

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

i guess it’s possible that israeli americans can loot enough out of america to buy india, which will then assume the role of israel’s protector.

everything seems to be headed for fire sale prices… maybe we can have an auction…

“what am i bid for india?”

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By Bertil, March 9, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

As for peak oil, in a presentation given at a Petroleum Institute Convention in 2004, the presenter cited the fact that Saudi Arabia had not had a major oil strike in that county in 8 years.  In fact, water was found in the yield from the last strike.  That means that that well is getting near the bottom.  They pump water into the well to force the oil up and out.

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 12:49 pm Link to this comment

if we’re gonna tell the whole story, i guess there is a faction of americans who are dependent on israel…

...which would be the deathwish christians, who are depending on israel to stir up such a big enough shit sandwich that jesus will come back.

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment

israel is dependent on the US for protection. the US isnt dependent on israel for anything.

israel must be protected as it continues its land acquisition project. israel needs more land to compensate for land that will likely be lost to sea level rise.

the looters in america, some of whom have no allegiance to anything or anyone but themselves, see peak oil coming, and as they loot america, they, too, are jeopardizing israel’s chances of survival by prematurely crippling israel’s american protector.

there’s probably some scheme in which the looting of america dovetails with the need to secure israel… it just hasnt become apparent yet, at least not to me.


the israelis, who have self-selected for paranoia and psychopathy for a few generations now, seem unable to grasp the fact that their best chance for survival depends on cooperation with their neighbors.

but maybe it’s all gone so far that common sense is no longer in the running as a solution.

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By Folktruther, March 9, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

I’m sorry, wadosy, I can’t follow the arguement. Israel is obviously dependant on the US, but how is the US dependant on Israel becaue of peak oil?

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By wadosy, March 9, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther says…

“I still can’t accept it (peak oil) emotionally, but it is a better explanation than adventurism plus Zionism.”

you can emote all you want, but that doesnt have much effect on geology, and geology determines how much oil you can pump.

american production peaked in 1970, despite being the world’s biggest producer, with the most modern methods, the most talented work force, tons of capital to invest, and a mostly friendly government… american production has declined by almost 50% since the 1970 peak, despite the discoveries in alaska, which have also peaked.

if you think for a minute, you have to concede that it’s only a matter of time until global oil production peaks.

people have been going to the most godawful places in the world to look for gas and oil—for instance, north of the magnetic north pole in the 1960s, when the seismic people admitted they’d have no way of getting the stuff out even if they found anything, because of the ice… 40 years ago, people were crashing around up on the ice, looking for oil they did have a chance of pumping… just in case of ...what? ...were they already anticipating global warming? who knows?


now then, if america’s been built from the ground up dependent on cheap oil, and if israel is dependent on america for its survival, and if america is threatened by peak oil, that means israel is threatened by peak oil.

since oil produces co2, and israel is threatened by sea level rise caused by global warming caused by co2 caused by burning oil, an effort must be made to curb co2 production by curbing use of oil, especially seeing as how china recently overtook the US as the world’s biggest producer of co2… curbing chinese use of energy means grabbing control of enough oil to forcibly restrict chinese access to oil… not to mention these PNAC dreams of global hegemony through control of energy, enforced, as a last resort, by nuke first strikes on russia and china.

“...the sort of missile defenses that the United States might plausibly deploy would be valuable primarily in an offensive context, not a defensive one—as an adjunct to a U.S. first-strike capability, not as a standalone shield.

If the United States launched a nuclear attack against Russia (or China), the targeted country would be left with a tiny surviving arsenal—if any at all. At that point, even a relatively modest or inefficient missile-defense system might well be enough to protect against any retaliatory strikes, because the devastated enemy would have so few warheads and decoys left.

The Rise of U.S. Nuclear Primacy From CFR Foreign Affairs, March/April 2006


the project is a mostly a response to threats posed to israel by peak oil and global warming.

it wasnt much of a problem getting the duty warmongers to sign on, because they never met a war they didnt like.

it wasnt much of a problem getting exxon to sign on, because the US taxpayer would be footing the bill for exxon’s oil acquisition costs, at a time when access to big fields is declining and exploration and production costs are skyrocketing… exxon tried to start building nuke electric plants, but they gave up after the chernobyl disaster…

many americans might be driving electric cars by now had exxon continued to develop nuke electricity… but that would have reduced israel’s importance in US foreign policy.

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By Sepharad, March 9, 2009 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

Re felicity’s 1950 history book quote re prosperous nations drifting into materialism and anti-intellectualism ... brought from “The A Word” thread by cyrena:

Once a prosperous country is reveling in materialism and the philistines are reveling in anti-intellectualism, doesn’t it usually result in a boom in intellectuals writing disparagingly of the castes and classes of anti-intellectuals? The late ‘40s to ‘50s and early ‘60s Kerouac, Ginsburg, Kesey, Vidal, Mailer, Huxley, then Sontag, Cheevers and Updike who just kept on writing through the decades till he died last month. Earlier, the Happy Valley (in Kenya) and other British colonial outposts inspired Maugham, Amis, and Anthony Powell who wrote about those ‘tween WW youngsters. Must agree that we seem to have hit a dearth in the ‘80s and ‘90s bubbles on, except for TCorraghsen Boyle, Cormac McCarthy, Salman Rushdie and a few
others. (But maybe Felicity’s book was regarding intellectuals as philosophers and historians rather than writers.)

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By Sepharad, March 9, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

cyrena - PART III—We’ve also done good things, obviously: Providing universal education; fighting the good fight in WWII to keep a maniac from controlling England and Europe; creating a social safety net yet maintaining enough capitalism to develop the country; intervening in Serbia to stop mass murders of Moslems; at least beginning to try to get UN food distributed in Mogadishu after UN Pakistani troops had been murdered; intervening to help stop the AIDS plague in Africa; insisting on voting rights for African Americans. Frankly, I’d say that America has stacked up well compared to other older, more sophisticated empires of the past—probably because we have a more diverse population and USED to have a feistier press. Of course, now we have to cooperate with other countries because the enemies the West has made trying to keep a grip on King Oil till we don’t need it or till the Arabs run out of it, whichever comes first.

Certainly, in our career as a superpower which only truly began after WWII, we’ve done less harm than those older empires, despite having to cope with the chaotic, dangerous world they created. Now we ourselves—having elected George Bush twice—are responsible for our badly damaged economy, our political capacity to maneuver and adapt, our young people at risk every day fighting “stupid” wars, our battered system of checks and balances, our weakened civil liberties and our need for oil—all this set us up as accomplices, willing or not, to torture. We finally got scared enough of chaos to vote in a President who seemed likely to honestly try to give us back at least a few pieces of ourselves, and from day one of his campaign he very clearly said that he will not abide torture. The election was too close to say that the whole country has turned its back on torture, but at least Obama got more votes than the torturer’s seductive “...just let me do my job and your life will be safer, better” whispers.

But if the economic chaos gets worse, as it seems it will, people might once again decide that they want more control over the little security they do have, even if it’s false security. When citizens want the government to protect them above all else, when they are angry about everything but see one tiny corner where someone physically can hit back, they are close to saying “Yeah, torture the bastard, give it to him.” Even if they know it’s morally wrong. Even if they know it doesn’t work. Fear is not the same as “dumbed down”—but Stanford behavioral studies have shown how little resistance there is to authority-sanctioned application of pain (aka torture).

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By Bertil, March 9, 2009 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

By Gold Star Father, March 9 at 6:31 am #
(Unregistered commenter) says,

“There are so many false statements in the previous comments. Many of you are just feeding on them.
A couple:
  The steel from the Trade Center Towers was taken to Staten Island before it was recycled. It was analyzed by many before it became “scrap”. It was looked over there repeatedly as it still contained human remains.I myself watched barges take the stuff there.”

And isn’t lucky that the steel girders all came down in 20 ft long pieces with ends cut at 60 degree angles.

This is a beautiful example of the perps, the “shadow government” trying to interject some doubt in a previously unquestioned series of events by lying.  The monker, Gold Star Father and the BS about being a military pilot tries to impose some level of credulity.

Well, I’ve got one for you.  All you unemployed in the US can now, thanks to NAFTA, go down to Mexico.  Plenty of “Doctorin’, Lawyerin’ jobs down there.”  (Thanks John Candy.)

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