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Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People

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Posted on Feb 14, 2009
Sachsenhausen
AP photo / Sven Kaestner

Visitors to Oranienburg, Germany, pass the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp last month. The words on the gate translate loosely as “Labor liberates.” 

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally published in The Independent.

The third and very final part of the “normality” of war. I have just finished reading Lyn Smith’s Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. I admit to a personal interest. Lyn is a friend of mine for whom I have been recording my memories of Middle East wars for the Imperial War Museum. Nothing I have ever seen can equal this, however, and I can give only one example from the terrifying, outrageously brave and moving book this is.

It is the testimony of Leon Greenman, a British Jewish inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau who arrived at the extermination camp with his wife and child. It speaks for itself. All other passages pale beside it:

“We were bullied out of the train and stood about waiting. It must have been about half past two in the morning. It was dark, a blue light was shining on the platform. We saw a few SS men walking up and down. They separated the men from the women. So I stood right in front of the men and I could see my wife there with the child in her arms. She threw me a kiss and she showed the baby ... Then one of the prisoners in a striped uniform commanded us to follow him. Well, we turned to the left and walked a little way for two or three minutes. A truck arrived, stopped near us and on the truck were all the women, children, babies and in the centre my wife and child standing up. They stood up to the light as if it was meant to be like that – so that I could recognise them. A picture I’ll never forget. All these were supposed to have gone to the bathroom to have a bath, to eat and to live. Instead they had to undress and go into the gas chambers, and two hours later those people were ashes, including my wife and child.”

I recalled this searing passage this week when I received a letter from a reader, taking me to task for my “constant downplaying of the suffering of the Palestinians on the grounds that their deaths and suffering are minimal when compared with that of the Second World War”. Now, I should say at once that this is a bit unfair. I was especially taking exception to a Palestinian blog now going the rounds which shows a queue of Palestinian women at one of Israel’s outrageous roadblocks and a (slightly) cropped picture of the Auschwitz selection ramp, the same platform upon which Leon Greenman was separated from his young wife and child more than 60 years ago. The picture of the Palestinian women is based on a lie; they are not queuing to be exterminated. Racist, inhumane and sometimes deadly – Palestinian women have died at these infernal checkpoints – but they are not queuing to be murdered.

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Yet our reader does have a point. The Second World War, she says, “does put it in a category apart ... but surely if one is caught up in any war and sees one’s loved ones killed or maimed, one’s home destroyed ... then that must be the greatest cataclysm in one’s life. The fact that a hundred others, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million are suffering likewise is immaterial to the individual’s suffering. The Second World War lasted six years. The Palestinian suffering has lasted over sixty…”

And yes, I’ll go along with this. If it’s an individual being deliberately killed, then this is no less terrible than any other individual, albeit that this second person may be one of six million others. The point, of course, is the centrality of the Holocaust and – Israel’s constant refrain – its exclusivity. Actually, the Armenian Holocaust – as I’ve said on umpteen occasions – is also central to all genocide studies. The same system of death marches, of camps, of primitive asphyxiation, even a few young German officers in Turkey watching the genocide in 1915 and then using the same methods on Jews in the occupied Soviet Union. Numbers matter.

But our reader has another point. “After all,” she says, “in the Second World War, after the entry of the US and USSR on our side, people could feel pretty positive about the outcome. But where is such hope for the Palestinians? And now to cap the horror the BBC is refusing to even show an appeal to help Gaza…” I’m not at all sure that W Churchill Esq would have entirely placed such confidence in the outcome of the Second World War – he was initially worried that the Americans would use up their firepower on the Japanese rather than against Hitler’s Germany.

I think, however, there is yet one more point. The rules of war – the Geneva Conventions and all the other post-Second World War laws – were meant to prevent another Holocaust. They were specifically designed to ensure that no one should ever again face the destruction of Mrs Greenman and her child. They were surely not made only for one race of people. And it is these rules which Israel so disgracefully flouted in Gaza. It’s a bit like the refrain from Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara and a whole host of other apparatchiks when the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Well, yes, they told us, it was bad – but not as bad as Saddam Hussein’s regime.

And of course, this argument leads to perdition. True, we were bad – but not as bad as the Baath party. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or Hitler’s Germany and the SS. Or the Ottoman Turks – though I noticed movingly that one of Lyn’s Jewish Holocaust survivors mentions the Armenians. No, the numbers game works both ways. A thousand Palestinians die in Gaza. But what if the figure were 10,000? Or 100,000? No, no, of course that wouldn’t happen. But the rules of war are made for all to obey. Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths. But a Palestinian woman and her child are as worthy of life as a Jewish woman and her child on the back of a lorry in Auschwitz.


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By Inherit The Wind, March 20, 2009 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

Oops! This thread fell off Page 3 to Page 4—too far back..I’m outta here!

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By Shingo, March 19, 2009 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

Before I begin, may I suggest you refrain from putting statements in quotes and attribute them to me, unless I have actually made them.

I am not discounting pagan belief at all. Ironically, you’ll find that those who do discount and demonize pagan beliefs are Christians, especially reborn ones like Trithoverlies.  I merely pointed out that the orginins of Christianity and other religions, are steeped in pagan concepts.

You name it.  Easter has nothing to do with the death of Christ.  it is derived from the pagan celebration of Ishtar, the Goddess of fertility.  That would explain the eggs and the Easter Bunny.

Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, but the winter solstice.  There are others like, the son has risen? I could go on.

Paganism is largely tied to the earth and nature and thus is become the bedrock for philosophy and religion.

I completely agree that there is a wisdom in the spiritual efforts of humanity. The problem with the born again evangelicals, is that rather than revere this wisdom, they degrade it.  It was the Christians, not the pagans, who regarded indigenous tribes as heathens and sub human.

The Jews are not unique, though like all other religions, they naturally regard theirs are superior. Christians believe that they too were given the Law, albeit from Jesus, the son of God, who some Christians also believe was God.

The concepts of truth and religion are completely at odds, because while truth identified by evidence religion rests on faith, a belief that exists in spite of evidence.

Given that paganism is tied directly to nature and the earth, it is no coincidence therefore that most religions throughout the world revere similar deities and archetypes. Not all religions of the world believe their God designated the Jews as his chosen people.  Not every religion in the world places religious importance on the land of Israel.

Of course, if you were Jewish, then Jesus of Nazareth might be a prophet, but falls short of fulfilling the the prophesy of the scriptures. that’s why the Jews are still waiting for their savior and religious nuts like Trith is anxiously waiting for Christs return so that they Jews can knee before him.

But for now, I’ll leave you and Trithoverlies to indulge in your rapturous euphoria.

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

Shingo says: What I HAVE proven is that the story of Jesus is based on an archetype that has been repeated many times throughout history.

Shingo seems to discount all pagan beliefs as foolishness. Shingo says to the rest of humanity, past and present, “You know nothing! All your attempts at spiritual wisdom comes from the abyss. It is all completely wrong. It must all be destroyed.”

That is not how I see all those people. I read what pagans figured out and guessed at and dreamed about, and how they lived because of it. Its a darn sight better than what you and I could ever come up with on our own.

I treat the ancient ways with respect and awe. I think there is a wisdom in the spiritual efforts of humanity. Every religion, past and present. Every tribe and every culture.

The Jews were unique though. The Jews were given the Law, and the direct teaching from God. Whether the Jews had an easier time because of this is debateable.

The pagan Gentiles all over the world were also made by God, and lived in God’s world.  Shingo is saying that there is no chance that some truth would be reflected in their myths. You are wrong, Shingo, so sadly wrong. The myths teach us of human life and they guess at the divine.

I find it fascinating that everywhere across the world, in every place and every culture we see one very specific myth repeated over and over with the exact same story.

The coincidence that makes Shingo turn away in disgust transfixes me with amazement. I cannot help but praise God for it.

“Father, you are always greater and better than I expect. It turns out that You never abandoned anyone, from the arctic tundra to the amazon jungle. The whisper of truth about your plan was placed in every human ear, and a hopeful dream was taken into their hearts, and that hope expressed a story.”

Jesus of Nazareth fulfills the Jewish Law, fulfills the prophesy of their scripture. That should be enough.

But no, that is not all. Jesus fulfills the hope and dream of the Gentiles all across the world.

Paul said of the Gentiles, “We see the law was wrtiien in their hearts” But we also see that the prophecy was also written in their hearts, and expressed in dreams and myths

I am amazed. With God, everything is always more than I expected it would be.

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By Shenonymous, March 19, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Nihilsm comes in many packages.  There is the cyrena (CN) kind who would either murder, or have someone murder, or character assassinate with a spewing of verbal poison towards one when one is found not agreeable, namely me; then there is the kind that OzarkMichael (OMN) uses under the guise of Fundamentalist Christianity to obfuscate reality, thus he is a hypocrite as much as anyone on this forum, who would bury Shenonymous because She is an atheist. Now who has become the spinner?  Hard to say who of the two is worse?  One nails her left hand (CN), the other the right one and the heart with one good shot, respectively speaking (OMN).  And don’t they make an interestingly odd couple?  Interesting and hilarious at the same time.  Neither are effective in each of their unique brands of Nihilism because as I have said, She is a xombie and no matter how many times they try to annihilate Her, I come back!  Sort of like V in V for Vendetta.  Now that was a cinematic Guy I really appreciated.  Does anyone have any silver bullets?

These temper tantrums might be, though far fetched, because of our diaglogue history, there have been points where Shingo and I have found some harmony… possibly I am wrong. I would have to come to another point of agreement again though, with Shingo in his last post response to me, where he says, pragmatically, that it is next to impossible to wipe out terrorists.  And, if not totally impossible, I agree, not adding wood to the fires of discontent that created terrorists in the first place most likely is the best way to minimize the terrorist-effect.  All that notwithstanding, and while there is no time like the present, regardless of how peppery it might get, the slow method of civil negotiation must begin, although both Shingo and I do not have much hope for it, another case of agreement; however, the world faces continued terrorist acts of murder of not tens but hundreds a month! And thousands at one time occasionally, thus that element must be reduced significantly by counterforce.  To not understand that is self-delusional.

It is not only I who call Hamas a terrorist organization!  To think that it is only Shenonymous who says that is cockeyed.  Try all the significant countries of the world!  And it is Hamas who resides within the occupied territories of Israel!  It is rudimentary arithmetic.

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By Shingo, March 19, 2009 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said: I dont get the picture, Shingo. What are you trying to prove exactly?

What I HAVE proven is that the story of Jesus is based on an archetype that has been repeated many times throughout history.  The story of Christ is not unique - it has been borrowed from Pagan deities.

If you still insist on believing that a man was conceived of a Virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead, then be my guest.

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By Shingo, March 19, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Shenonymous said: That the Arabs themselves have been recantive says about all one can say about terrorists.  They must be eliminated, wiped out.  This should be the single most vigorous and exertive effort by all countries.

I think it’s been argued quite convincingly, that wiping out terrorists is as productive as nailing jelly to ta aw all.  You can use all the nails you want, but the result is going to be the same.

The way to wipe out terrorists is to remove the conditions that are fueling the terrorist movement ie. injustice.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 19, 2009 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

Cy:

If you had written it like this last post I never would have said anything about or even THOUGHT anything of it, figuring we all play hard-ball here and this is actually a bit mild.

IMHO I think you went too far and too personal.  But that’s only my opinion.

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By cyrena, March 19, 2009 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

“If you think She is “lying” or misrepresenting the border issue, say so!”

But Inherit,

That’s exactly what I did. More than once, and of course you will note that She hasn’t bothered to respond, even though I very specifically asked her to tell us what Territories are INSIDE ISRAELS BORDERS? I even spent a considerable amount of time with OZ on this some weeks ago, going step by step, to work this through on the border thing.

And, Shenonymous knows very well what has ‘gotten into me’, which is why she claims that she’s told me to quit responding to her posts. She doesn’t want to be accountable or otherwise responsible for what she says here. She posts it, and then when somebody questions it, they become the bad person just picking on poor old broke down Shenonymous, who’s just trying to make the world a better place.

Poor thing. What can we all do to help her?

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

I said: “One might say that the Divine is unrecognizable in today’s Bible.”

Shenonymous says: Are you sure OM that it isn’t the Holy Book as much as today’s blind interpretation or the prostitution of it by those who would use it to further their own nefarious reasons?

If Shenonymous insists on wiping away the filth and dirt so that the Holy can be seen, all i have to say is “what sort of atheist is that?”

Everything about her is true and reliable and worthwhile, except when She talks about herself. Then its never the truth. But She warns us… from the start her name is Shenonymous and thats what She is going to always be.  It is a game to her. I think its funny how people trust her about the false things but then disbelieve the true things.

Shenonymous told everyone she is an Atheist. That is one of her many ‘precautions’ about who, what, and where She is. I think the real ‘her’ behind the ‘She’ is someplace else. But I have always thought that.

Finally I have the evidence to ‘out’ her.

“Holy Book” indeed. The real her behind the She is a Christian, probably a fundamentalist type. I have a friend in Washington State who says she has a home there and goes to church sometimes, but She isnt usually there.

It has been said that Shenonymous and I are the same person. Not that I am aware of. But she lists my home as one of her addresses and I get some of her mail. She showed up at my house with a wrench in her hand and called herself “Nancy Jane”. As a result of that encounter all i really know about her is that She is definitely NOT a mechanic.

She takes what is hers, and then She is gone again.

Anyone who thinks they ‘know’ the real Shenonymous is being made a fool of. There is no way to sort this stuff out and thats the way She likes it.

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, feel free to use the CIR* scale without any attribution to me.

unfortunately the bad news would mean that I would actually have to read Cyrena’s posts?

Not really. cyrena opens her highly complex insults and rudeness with something in capitals like: “WOW”. Sometimes cyrena closes her insult with this: “period!”

To find the treasures without going through the reams and reams of dross, just use the markers. The markers will lead you to the golden nuggets of artistic genius that generate the highest CIR* score. Just look for capital letters. And just look for the word “period!”.

Thats what i do and i never missed anything important yet.

CIR = Cyrena Insult and Rudeness scale

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

Shingo lists many myths from around the world, and then he comments:

All of them were born of a virgin
All of them the only begotten son of the God
All of them annunciated by an angel to his mother
All of them 12 followers or disciples
All of them walked on water
All of them raised someone from the grave
All of them transfigured….on a mountain
All of them death by Crucifixion, Accompanied by two thieves

You get the picture.  All of them pre-date Christ by thousands of years.


I dont get the picture, Shingo. What are you trying to prove exactly?

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By Leefeller, March 19, 2009 at 8:34 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

Really find your CIR scale worthy of being used on other threads, may I use it with your permission giving credit to you of course. “OzarkMichael CIR Scale” or “OM CIR Scale” referencing and crediting with respect.

Could I find myself worthy of using it properly?  Cyrena does provide some strange sort of constant insult, so should make the job easier, unfortunately the bad news would mean that I would actually have to read Cyrena’s posts?

You know the CIR scale could become a standard on TD which could be used for other posters?  Love the concept, except could it be a vehicle of humoring and promoting insulting and rude behavior?

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By Shenonymous, March 19, 2009 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

I am not quite as dangerous as cy is as she continues to threaten me by implied fiat.  And if a protest is proffered, I will say explicitly THAT IS HOW I TAKE IT!  And I have taken steps to secure my safety.  If I were more dangerous than any Muslim, that then is an admission by cyrena that Muslims are dangerous, which I have never said, but comes right out of the keyboard of cyrena.  I have said and always said that terrorist fanatical Islamists are the one most dangerous factor in this world today. That is not to say there are not other terrorists in the world, such as those who would upset the peace in Ireland, or those in South America.  I suggest she calm down and not read any of my posts henceforth.  I have already asked that she not address any comments to me and she dishonorably does not do that.  Subsequently I will not respond to anything she says.  You are all my witnesses.

Shingo: This in itself is a fact worth pondering, because such settlement was by far the most important political story in Israel in the past four decades. Why then, only now? (my bolding)

The “This” refers to the ‘fact’ that Lords of the Land is the first attempt to give a full account of the story of Israel’s settlement of the occupied territories.  Taub asks why now given it is such an important political story?  If Taub knew what Zertal and Eldar knew way back when, then why did he not himself bring it to light.  If he didn’t then his criticism is a bit off beam.  I agree that criticism is vastly important, but because this is as important a fact as Taub proposes, and I agree it is that important, the criticism becomes retrospect instead of prescriptive, hence just information to be noted nothing more.  Regarding the “occupied territories” that do exists within the borders of Israel (and it is moot how fuzzy those borders are for the purposes of this conversation, and is the food for other discussions) we may legitimately call them de facto borders.  It was obviously the express intention of Israel to “move in” and by the very same argument they give to keep Palestinians from voting in their country proper, they have sequestered those territories.  I agree that they need to withdraw all their settlements from those territories.  Yes of course it will take a lot of money, an exorbitant amount, but that is the consequences for effectively taking over those territories.  But, I think this needs to be done politically not with military means.

Shingo, “Shenonymous, M” ?????  I have in the past given my full TD ID as Shenonymous Meticulous that is true, with a middle name as Hyperbole.  FYI.

Your reply to Trithoverlies, Shingo, is cogent and correct in my opinion,  I agree with your somewhat historical observations.  I admire that you are able to reply in such a clear, concise, and non-metaphysical way without resorting to tearing down Trith’s character.  Whether or not all agree with you, it is the province of healthy minds that can speak differences without venom the way you have.  That is precisely the rational and calm way I think contrary opinions ought to be expressed.  Thank you for providing this standard.

What is most frightening is this quote of ITW and its affirmation:  “Give the Arab leaders who are terrified of assassination a reason to publicly endorse the peace process, given that it’s fairly close to the Arab proposal of a few years ago.”  That the Arabs themselves have been recantive says about all one can say about terrorists.  They must be eliminated, wiped out.  This should be the single most vigorous and exertive effort by all countries.

OM says: “One might say that the Divine is unrecognizable in today’s Bible.”  Are you sure OM that it isn’t the Holy Book as much as today’s blind interpretation or the prostitution of it by those who would use it to further their own nefarious reasons?  You are too kind in your rating system.

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

cyrena, who considers simple rudeness and simple disrespect beneath her high moral standard, introduces her post with this:

WOW….the shit is still flowing with the sarcasm and total disrespect and incredibly mean spirited spitefullness

First i want to say that while this is a great performance of complex insults, it does not break cyrena’s record of five disrespectful insults in one sentence.

But lets give cyrena points for that last insult. For a single insult it is very strong. Four consecutive insulting words build to an unforgetable crescendo.

On the CIR* scale i give it an 8.7

*CIR= Cyrena Insult and Rudeness scale

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By OzarkMichael, March 19, 2009 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

Shingo says: I have studied the Bible.  The translations were many and occurred is recently as the 15th and 16th century.  Before they were translated, they were passed on by word of mouth, which by definition, is the most inaccurate and unreliable form of preserving any story.

The Bible,  spoken, heard, repeated, finally written. then copied, then translated. then copied again! Handled by many.

You see weakness in the process. Whatever the original heavenly message may have been, one might remark that today it is long dead on arrival. The long process is almost like passing a mangled corpse down through the ages. One might say that the Divine is unrecognizable in today’s Bible.

Of course i have said these things in a rough way. You are too polite to use those words.

‘All this human frailty ought not be mistaken as a heavenly message.’ This is what you are saying. 

And you think, ‘surely a heavenly message must be delivered with more divine purity and magnificence than this.’

Yet where can we find a heavenly message that has the purity and magnificence that you are expecting to find?

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By Inherit The Wind, March 19, 2009 at 4:05 am Link to this comment

Truthoverlies:

Frankly, I do not believe you read all those versions of the Jesus scriptures in their original languages.

1) While it’s true that Jesus is Greek for Joshua, Joshua is not Hebrew or Aramaic, but English for Yeshua.

2) A similar translation error is true for Messiah, which is properly, Moshiach.

3) Christ is anglicized Greek as well for Christos.

4) A comparison of the KJB to a modern direct translation of Tanakh (the Jewish Bible) both translations and the ordering of the text is quite garbled.  Plus, when people try to sound “holy” they’ll say crap like “Thus saith the Lord” as if using Shakespearean English (which is what the KJB is written in) has some sort power to it.

****************************************************

Cyrena, what’s gotten into you? That attack on Shenonymous was totally uncalled-for, ad-hominem, and vituperative. Do you know how many times I’ve been PERSONALLY lied about, as opposed to having to expose lies about events?  Remember the one about Benj. Franklin’s supposed anti-semitism?  That was concocted by Goerring’s Nazi Dept of Propaganda in the 30’s?  That wasn’t attacking a border dispute—that argued that a whole ethnic group was evil!

How many times has ElizabethE quoted vote counts and statistics, been proven outrageously wrong with elementary school aritmetic, then turned around the week after to post the same damn thing, always arguing that Nader should be President?

If you think She is “lying” or misrepresenting the border issue, say so!

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By Shingo, March 19, 2009 at 2:14 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

The story of Horus is based on a archetype, therefore it cannot by definition be a lie.  the story predates the so called story of Christ by many millennia. There are half a dozen other deities with a similar story.

The others include Krishna, Mythra (born on or around Dec. 25), Adad and Marduk. Adonis, Aesclepius, Apollo (who was resurrected at the vernal equinox as the lamb), Dionysus, Heracles (you know him as Hercules) and Zeus of Greece. Alcides or Thebes, Attis ofPhrygia, Baal or Bel of Babylon/Phoenicia, Balder and Frey of Scandinavia, Bali of Afghanistan, Beddru of Japan, Buddha and Krishna of India, Chu Chulainn of Ireland, Codom and Deva Tat of Siam, Crite of Chaldea, Dahzbog of the Slavs, Dumuzi of Sumeria and so the list goes on.

All of them were born of a virgin
All of them the only begotten son of the God
All of them annunciated by an angel to his mother
All of them 12 followers or disciples
All of them walked on water
All of them raised someone from the grave
All of them transfigured….on a mountain
All of them death by Crucifixion, Accompanied by two thieves

You get the picture.  All of them pre-date Christ by thousands of years.

I have studied the Bible.  The translations were many and occurred is recently as the 15th and 16th century.  Before they were translated, they were passed on by word of mouth, which by definition, is the most inaccurate and unreliable form of preserving any story.  Ever try the exercise of people in a circle passing on a story from one to the next by whispering.  The last person to get the story always has a very distorted interpretation.

The translations have not been minor, they have been drastic.  There is no way to verify or prove the accuracy of what we have today.  As you always do, you are pitting your faith over reason and fact.  I bet you even believe there were no dinosaurs but dragons and that the earth is only 6000 years old too?

We in the West have had thousands of years to verify the veracity fo the Bible and to this day, there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus Christ exited.  None. No manuscripts.  No texts.  No documents.

The English translations is the most suspect because it was performed under the authority of those who had he power to influence and corrupt the message to suit their purposes.  In know how desperate you are to believe that the word of God has remained untainted, but that’s simply an impossible proposition.  I don’t need to disprove the Bible Accuracy, because it’s accuracy has never been tested against history.

And for someone who pretends to know so much about the Bible, how did you miss the part about the Jews breaking the Covenant with God and no longer being entitled to Israel?

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By Trithoverlies, March 19, 2009 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

Shingo I see you bought the lie of Christ based on a Mythical story I happen to Know that that Myth you so convieniantly brought up actually was not started until about 170 A.D. by a group of Greek Philosophers because Christianity was stealing their students with the Truth over the lie. As for the Bible You have not done you research well, yes there have been tranlations done but All were done from The Alexandrian School the Antiochin School and the Byzantian School. The Bibles used by each of these schools were where we get the Majority text from. I will grant there have been minor translation changes in prefferance for one term over another; but they do not change the meaning of what was written and through Literary and Textual Criticism we are 99.9% sure of the Biblical text.  The Translations of the late 19th. and the 20th. century, NASB, ESV, RSV, and NKJV. all stay 99.9% pure, so your translation argumet is a straw man with no leggs to stand on. The above are all based on a literal translation of phrases and when you read all of them as I have done to compare there are no philosophical, and theological problems just Cosmetic alterations like Torah translated into Statue, law, Teaching, or Instruction, or Jesus, or Joshua, both mean the same thing Joshua is Hebrew for Gods Salvation, while Jesus is drived from Greek meaning Gods Salvation you will also find the Word Messiah, and Christ, Messiah is Hebrew for Gods announted one, and Christ is derived from Greek for Gods annointed one. A real Scholar doesn’t worry that his argument is not strong enough to stand against alternetive arguments so he gives his students the other arguments in this way each student makes up his or her mind from looking at all sides of the argument this includes warts and all. To many that today call themselve scholars pick one argument and allow no other.  Yes I know where you are coming from and you must open your mind, investigate all avenues. Thoroughly investigate the story of the Bible, and chritianity, you will then have a right to criticize Christianity and the Bible. There is no other book from ancient times better documented, better kept pure, and we have nearly 25,000 manuscripts with 5700 in Koine Greek and the others Syriac, Hebrew, Latin, Coptic, and Armeanian the next closest Ancient book is the Illiad with 600 copies dating from 900 A.D., 2000 years after it was written. The first English translations came in the 14th.& 15th. Century, the KJV in 1611 in the english spoken at that time the KJV of today is based on the 1909 English which again doesn’t change the meaning it only makes it easier to understand. You picked a topic I have been researching for the last five years I have a rudimentary grasp of both Old Testament Hebrew, and New Testament Koine Greek. I am sure you will continue to deny, and attempt to disprove the Bible Accuraccy, Reliability, and Translations. Good luck. Simon Greenleaf tried and found that the Bible was what it said it was, many scholars such as C.S. Lewis an atheist who became a believer through investigating the Bible, Reporter Lee Storbel for the Chicago Tribune an Atheist investigated Jesus Christ and wrote A Case for Christ. that became an International best seller became firmly convinced of the truth of Christ. What did these men have it was an open mind to fully investigate and only then draw a conclussion.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By cyrena, March 18, 2009 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

•  “This glamorization of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians in the territories within the Israeli borders, more or less answers the question I have been posing for weeks now on this thread and none has addressed it adequately or at all really.  That is why the Palestinians get support only from a terrorist organization, Hamas, and none or very little from the other principals of the Arab Empire.” 

WOW….the shit is still flowing with the sarcasm and total disrespect and incredibly mean spirited spitefullness. All to prove a point that you’ve yet to prove.

Let me get this right, it is the GLAMORIZATION of the ‘conflict’ between Israel and the Palestinians IN THE TERRITORIES WITHIN THE ISRALEI BORDERS, more or less answers the question you have been posing for weeks now, and none has addressed it adequately or at all.

That’s about as amazingly ignorant as you’ve gotten yet. (Well, maybe not).

So, what answers the question shenon? What IS your so-called ‘question’?

And tell us PLEASE, because you have to be the ONLY person on the fact of the earth you knows this…
Just exactly what ‘territories’ are within the Israeli borders, AND WE WILL BE WAITING FOR THE INFORMATION SHENONYMOUS…

So, let me ask you again…WHAT TERRITORIES ARE WITH THE ISRAELI BORDERS. Don’t even attempt to answer the question until you come up with some coordinates, maps, charts, showing us where those boarders are. Yep. we just REALLY wanna know that.

Matter of fact shenon…once you reveal this information about Israels borders that NO BODY ELSE IN THE WORLD KNOWS, THAT should provide the resources to prevent you from having to go back to exactly where we know you’ve come from.

Then try to explain how the 60 year slaughter of millions of Arabs and their presence in refugee camps is fucking GLAMOROUS??? Gee, genocide is so ‘glamorous’. How could I have missed that?

Help us out with this information shenonymous, because I’m finally tired of all this lying, and I’ve decided that if you want to keep lying on these forums, I’ll just keep pointing them out.

So, come up with something real quick, to prove whatever it is that you claim no one has adequately answered, and make damn sure you tell us all about the territories within Israels borders. I can’t wait.

What an incredible FRAUD you are. The jealously must be eating you alive shenonymous. You’ll lie without batting an eye. Taking a hint from GW eh, your Texas HERO? Tell the same lie long enough until you make it the truth? Like the total and intentionally mean-spirited sarcasm that forces you to use the term Arab Empire when there is no such thing, because the 22 Arab states are completely sovereign in their statehood, and Arabia has NEVER been an ‘empire’. There was an Ottoman Empire, but there has never been an Arab Empire, because Empire and Islam are the antithesis of each other.

So in other words, you just keep lying to spread negative propaganda that is yours and yours alone. You just can’t take the idea that there may be some money in the hands of a few of these leaders. What a miserable soul you are. Insult people (perfect strangers, it doesn’t matter) and bad mouth their religion and their political leadership, showing the depth of your hatred and envy all at the same time.
Shenon…you are more dangerous than any Muslim, including UBL, just because of your hate and the deceptive way that you target and destroy other people.

Nobody should be forced to live in the gutter. Not even you. It’s obvious that you can’t help yourself, but there are facilities, and professional help is available. I really hate to have you wind up where you obviously started…..especially after all of that super hard intellect and brain work that went into your arts and crafs phd. (seems like an art degree would have at least provided a way to read maps.)

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By Inherit The Wind, March 18, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, March 18 at 7:51 am #

Inherit The Wind,

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes and…
5) Yes

******************************************

Between you and FT being in agreement with me so often I’m wondering if the Apocalypse is here or I (if not you guys) have gone insane!

Where’s the fun if you are agreeing with me so much??????????????????????????

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By Shingo, March 18, 2009 at 4:51 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes and…
5) Yes

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By Inherit The Wind, March 18, 2009 at 4:22 am Link to this comment

Now, clearly is the time for Obama and Clinton to step up to the plate and put Netanyahu in a hammerlock to press for a 2-state solution. This will
1) Make clear to the Israelis AND the Palestinians that the US will NOT unconditionally support ANY Israeli action.
2) Show that Obama, unlike Botch, but like Bill Clinton IS dedicated to the peace process.
3) Undermine Hamas’ hardening position.
4) Give the Arab leaders who are terrified of assassination a reason to publicly endorse the peace process, given that it’s fairly close to the Arab proposal of a few years ago.
5) Prove the anti-semites wrong who fantasize that Israel is controlling Washington.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 11:00 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, M

I don’t hold much hope for a happy ending either.

That’s why militarism is so abhorrent. Apart from the obvious death and destruction is brings, it also plays into the hands of hardliners.

Hamas are playing at the same game that Israel did during at the beginning of the June 2008 ceasefire.  After agreements had been reached as to the terms of the ceasefire (i.e. Israel’s agreement to lift the blockade), Israel declared the blockade would remain unless Gild Shalit was released.

While this may seem like a reasonable request, making it at the 11th hour as they did could be construed as an attempt to derail the ceasefire before it began.  I suspect that Hamas want to hang on to Shalit for the prisoner exchange.

Referring to the prisoners in question as having been convicted of killing Israelis is a loaded but irrelevant issue. That might sound strange, but let’s face it, it’s inevitable that fighters fro either side have been involved in killing.  That is the nature of the conflict.  Whether Shalit had killed any Palestinians or not is not the reason Hamas are holding on to him.

Shingo, I agree that Netanyahu never, ever, supported a 2-state solution.  I’ve always thought and said he would be an impediment to peace.  What is even worse is that now it was written that “Hamas has hardened its positions and retracted understandings reached during the last year and they have raised extreme demands, despite generous Israeli offers….” That might be a biased report but it was written by Associated Press, Steven Gutkin and I don’t know if he is “objective” in his analysis.  Among a couple of other problems. Hamas has demanded the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, including dozens convicted of killing Israelis and if Hamas adheres by its refusal to recognize the Jewish state, as seems likely, a new right-wing Israeli government could use that as an excuse to shun a future Palestinian unity government, and perhaps even intensify the blockade of Gaza.  A peace agreement does not look very auspicious. (meaning it does not look good).

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

ITW, you know what tenacious means, you are still here with us unflinching devotees.  And you don’t have to be lofty, you are welcome to dwell in the cellar or just keep rolling on the floor, your choice.

Course we could go into a discussion about whether there is or is not free will. Snore….

Shingo, I agree that Netanyahu never, ever, supported a 2-state solution.  I’ve always thought and said he would be an impediment to peace.  What is even worse is that now it was written that “Hamas has hardened its positions and retracted understandings reached during the last year and they have raised extreme demands, despite generous Israeli offers….” That might be a biased report but it was written by Associated Press, Steven Gutkin and I don’t know if he is “objective” in his analysis.  Among a couple of other problems. Hamas has demanded the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, including dozens convicted of killing Israelis and if Hamas adheres by its refusal to recognize the Jewish state, as seems likely, a new right-wing Israeli government could use that as an excuse to shun a future Palestinian unity government, and perhaps even intensify the blockade of Gaza.  A peace agreement does not look very auspicious. (meaning it does not look good).

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By Inherit The Wind, March 17, 2009 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, March 17 at 2:34 pm #

I meant to include ITW in this lofty and tenacious bunch.
***************************************************

Huh? Who, Me?  What’d I miss?????

(and when did I get lofty….??)

(ROFLMAO!)

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael asked: Shingo, how did you learn that saying about arguing law and cases? Are you a lawyer? be honest!

The honest answer is that no I am not a lawyer and that I learned this saying from watching TV.  Nothing very profound.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

The question that remains, Leefeller, is how much better than watching paint dry overall was it? 

By necessity, this will be in installments. Part 1
To expand, just a tad: OzarkMichael says:
Subjectivity is the self that knows it is nothing more than a self, and puts itself into the equation as a variable among the facts. A relationship which allows truth to be perceived. After that, the following steps requires ever more subjectivity, not less! Because the self must act and think and be different because of the knowledge gained. There is no objectivity that is up to that task.

Subjectivity is what it means to pursue Truth…truthfully.

Part of what you say might seem right, OzarkMichael, and it is almost poetic in that much in the way of metaphor seems to be at work.  For instance, the first part: “Subjectivity is the self that knows it is nothing more than a self…”  Here is a tiny argument:  For subjectivity to be, that is, to exist, in the metaphoric way you propose, it should have to know something, and that something it knows is what you indicate, “it is nothing more than a self.”  Surprising as it appear, even that small bit really is quite a lot of knowledge.  To have that drop of knowledge it must have some facts that are distinct enough to be verifiable. One of those might be, how it can distinguish itself from everything else?  A second one, would be how does it make that distinction?  A third one, could be what is the existential status of the Other?  And so forth for many many other questions, but that gives sufficient examples.

Now we all know, from Plato, who provided a great proof of this in his dialogue, Theaetetus, then onward, that knowledge is not absolute but, and like its sister, Ideal Truth, Ideal Knowledge is itself not real.  For something to be knowledge, our father of the mind, Plato says, “it must be true, and it must be eternal.”  Therefore, truth precedes knowledge but it does not overthrow it since like Truth it must be eternal.  The Ideals grandly provide the models, the archetypes for behaviors and comprehensions.  They are signs of what exists, they point to it.  These existents are offspring so to speak of the Ideals, and these are the reals as experienced, but until verified they are merely pretenders to the Truth.  Now what you say seems to have a ring of truth to it, but the ringer is off, a bit.  The tone needs retuned.  That is how mis – takes, mistakes, are made.  A miss taking of what is the proper order of things. I restate it for convenience of the argument, but with no foul of a sophistic verbal trick.  You said, OzarkMichael, the pretense of objectivity is what flaws the intellectuality of the non-believer of the modern age.  Is that fair to say?  If not, I’m sure you will correct me. 

Then to try to slog through what you say later will take a bit of sorting, but I will try since from what I can see, there is some small problems with it.

You say, “Impossible! the objectivity desires no such thing.” in response to something I stated, that “When the organism notices its world, the world of facts, then verifies the truth of those facts, then and only then can it become objective and extend itself towards the Other.”  It is cloudy how objectivity desires anything.  But you do go on to say, that objectivity is barely a self.  I would say that objectivity is not a self at all! I am talking about the attitude of an organism and whether it is self-referent or extro-referent (referring to Other).  You have somehow personified the idea, objectivity.  It is adjectival, meaning it names or describes an attribute.  Forgetting is a mental condition, a verbal form for failing to remember. But you wish to nounify it, make it a noun as if it were a thing.  Okay, but again that is a metaphoric ploy, a poetic use of the word.  That makes it difficult to get at what you are saying since interpretation must leak in, often gushes in.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Part 2.  A subjective journey through objectives hills and into objective dales.  A reply to OzarkMicahel
Then cryptically again, you say, “Hmm. no not quite. There is an error that must happen eventually. I know because I made this error.”  A taste test of some sort to make one curious?  For what error could he have made? 
You say it is impossible to not be a self.  Yes, that seems right, but to be aware that one is a self is a different thing.  It is the cognition of the existential and while I have no statistics, that is a condition I do not think many think about.  So your kind of selfhood is a genus of its own.  Skipping over to your falling into a stealthy self, again metaphor is working overtime, you seem to think that the self can project itself, when it cannot actualize the projection, it must self-reflect on what are the facts and then what is the truth that can be derived from those facts, and then and again, only then, can the self-reflecting self be able to extend itself to the external Other. That is the only condition that the self can become objective.  Objectivity is the only destination for the Self.  Else there is no reason for a Self to Be. 
The Great Forgetting is an idea and a figure of speech, a trope, and what that could mean are a number of things.  She, I, would not say that forgetting has much of a relationship to truth at all.  It is a loss of truth, if anything.  It is a quality of losing truth. 
While a self is a personna, an identity, subjective, like its opposite, objective, is adjectival, it describes an attribute of one’s feelings, tastes, opinions, and is dependent entirely on the mind. 
Do I deny any subjective relation to Truth? If it makes sense to say that sorrow or happiness has some relation to Truth with the capital letter T, which is the Ideal Truth, and which is only an archetype, then it must be denied, the subjective feeling of sorrow or happiness are as referents.  But, if we were to say that sorrow or happiness has a relation to a truth, one’s truth to what those apply, then those cannot be denied at all.
_____
I have never thought of you as slimey, OzarkMichael, clever, yes, but never never slimey.  I hate lawyers too.  I would never have any admiration for them.  Well never is a very strong word almost always needing to be taken back.  So I take it back. I don’t hate lawyers.

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Shingo said: What you are employing (as you often do) is the age old avoidance technique employed by lawyers.  When the law is against you, argue the case.  When the case is against you, argue the law.

I never heard of that but it is so clever. I dont know what to say. I hate lawyers but a sudden admiration for them swells in my heart.

Could I really do something so clever without realizing it? That is the good part. I am full of myself now and to hear from you that i am even smarter than i thought expands my already inflated opinion of myself.

But am i acting like a lawyer? That is the bad part.

This is so new to me. Is it really true? If it is, it makes me feel both clever and slimey at the same time.

Shenonymous, you have argued with me for over a year. Am i really like that? be honest.

Shingo, how did you learn that saying about arguing law and cases? Are you a lawyer? be honest!

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

....Zionism and settlement are ideological opposites….

The long quote from taub made me think. There are many many times Shenonymous presents information that makes me think but i rarely thank her for it. Too much goes by too fast.

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous: When the organism notices its world, the world of facts, then verifies the truth of those facts, then and only then can it become objective and extend itself towards the Other.

Impossible! the objectivity desires no such thing.

The objective is barely a self, or I should say it withholds its own self from view.  Objectivity is not a heightened sense of awareness, it is merely a type of forgetting. It forgets the self.  Which has its uses, but it is quite limited.

Objectivity studies a map but does not locate itself there, or the Other.

Hmm. no not quite. There is an error that must happen eventually. I know because I made this error.

It is impossible to not be a self. So while the objectivity ponders a growing collection of maps( facts), the forgotten self eventually looks out at the maps, and like a mirror, it sees itself in what is known. Objectivity results in a hidden conceit that the self is very large.

For secretly the forgotten self projected itself into what is known. This only happens when Objectivity is forced to serve as the highest relation to truth.

One does not say the self is lost in the map, because there is no destination for objectivity. There is no travel. There is no golden beach, only a million grains of sand where the blue meets the yellow on the map. There is no Other to meet there.

Objectivity is described as a self forgetting
 
Now surely She agrees that forgetting is not the highest relation to truth.

And surely She knows that forgetting cannot be the highest type of knowledge.

So the remembering of the self in relation to the facts is a higher knowledge. Let Subjectivity start with that remembering.  After the facts are gathered and the map laid out, the remembering must finally begin. The self must be placed into the equation. Not as a constant, oh no. The self is not that great. The purpose of Subjectivity is not to make the self great, but to remember the self in relation to the facts. Subjectivity makes the self very small on the map of facts, and forces the self to be aware of its own weakness and variability. But this is only the beginning, for Subjectivity has more work to do!

Subjectivity folds the map and puts the Objectivity map in pocket for reference. Then Subjectivity walks into the field. A journey through hills and into dales. Where shall we go? Why should we go there?

Objectivity has nothing to say in response to these questions. Subjectivity asks the the question and in an even deeper remembering, Subjectivity then supplies the answers.

I will go to that golden shore to meet Shenonymous. I draw good circles.  She denies any subjective relation to Truth, but with a sidelong glance i see that She draws more than circles upon the golden shore.

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By Leefeller, March 17, 2009 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

Just took the time to read and try and catch up on the posts, She, yours was very enlightening, formulated from my subjective beliefs and processed by my objective opinion and overall much better than watching paint dry,  this is a decision of what could be the truth but may not be facts.  Yes, I am smiling also.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Netanyahu has never supported a 2 state solution.  Throughout his last tenure as PM, he completely opposed it.

I also thought the review by Gadi Taub was very poignant, because it was the first time I had considered the argument of settlement being contrary to the interests of Zionism, though in hindsight it seems obvious.  Like Taub says, you can have Zionist democracy or a apartheid, but not both.

In this regard, I must say that it is hard not to respect true Zionism, if that is indeed what it means.  It is interesting that this divide, between the settlers ideology and the Zionists coincides with the 1967 war, which is the moment that many on the left lost their sympathy for Israel.  Some have argued that this split coincided with the break in ties between Israel and the Soviet Union, but I tend to believe it was due to altruistic and humanitarian factors.

Of course, like any religion or political ideology, the ideals have since been distorted to the point where Zionism and settlement are retarded as one and the same.

I am glad you took the time to read the review, because I believe it establishes much we can agree on.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

I meant to include ITW in this lofty and tenacious bunch.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

No, no, no…Subjectivity is the lowest step on the ladder, for it is the subject self that only can intuit itself before any further step on the way toward reality can proceed.  Otherwise the thinking mind is no better off on that journey than a cockroach!  Even some higher order animals have a sense of the subject self, but they do not rise above immediate needs.  When the organism notices its world, the world of facts, then verifies the truth of those facts, then and only then can it become objective and extend itself towards the Other.  Fact and Truth are between the subjective and objective.  Subjectivity is not what it means to pursue the Truth, for the only truth required of the simple subject is that it is alive.  Yes, OM, we have been on these opposite shores before.  I smile too.  Can we get Shingo and Leefeller to smile with us? And anyone else who would tread these waters.

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous says: Without any pretense, facts come first, then the truth is next, then objectivity.

noooooo! Its all blurred now. Shenonymous, as the greek mathematician on the beach said to the Roman soldier who was about to slay him, “You are disturbing my circles!”

In anything involving a self, in anything that really matters, truth works in this way:

objectivity comes first, then facts, then subjectivity, and finally truth.

So we see that objectivity is the lowest step on the ladder, not the highest.

Subjectivity is the self that knows it is nothing more than a self, and puts itself into the equation as a variable among the facts. A relationship which allows truth to be percieved. After that, the following steps requires ever more subjectivity, not less! Because the self must act and think and be different because of the knowledge gained. There is no objectivity that is up to that task.

Subjectivity is what it means to pursue Truth…  truthfully.

Friends… this is a fun chat. I had a happy smile while redrawing my circles in the sand. Shenonymous, havent we been on this beach before?

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

Shingo defends himself: It’s not a debating technique, it’s called citing sources.

What i am smiling about isnt the source. it isnt that you cite a source. partly in jest but partly seriously i will define some new words:

Fadelism is that habit of calling your own sources ‘scholarly’, but mine you will call ‘faux’.

Contingentism is the habit of assuming that the people who agree with you are brilliant. But people who disagree with you are dolts.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

1 of 2 Lunch break!
I am always so amazed at arguments given that actually describe what one is doing oneself!  It is a technique all right, but it shows that the rules of logic are not well understood.  It is the rule of argumentative thuggery (now, yes, I made that last one up, but then…we have too many Cinderellas here and shoe sizes.)

Copying his style, I agree almost with Shingo on this one with one modification: “The pretense of objectivity is the greatest intellectual flaw of the modern non-believer.”
Actually that’s the second greatest.  The greatest is the pretense of truth.

Without any pretense, facts come first, then the truth is next, then objectivity.

As in a marriage, a pearl of wisdom is ‘It takes two to tango.”  If common people of Jordan and Egypt receive aid from the US, there must be a reason-in-motion the US is sending it, let’s say that reason is “need.”

While I rarely, really if ever, read blogs since they are laden with personal opinions, even more rarely are they ever “informed” opinions, but I ran across this site, on my way to something else that caught my attention, that proposed the untoward situation that I found very disturbing. Apparently from a sort of journalistic/blog, I wonder about the truth of it. Egypt and Britain collude in removal of Palestinians from Gaza posted on January 18, 2009 by some cat named Liam.  “Egyptian forces erect 5000 tents in Egypt for refugees from Gaza!  Tent Camp at Egyptian Rafah (the very same Rafah I referred to in my earlier post of Palestinians crossing the border into Egypt to go shoppind) 17 Jan 09 Under cover of announcing humanitarian relief for injured Palestinians, it is now emerging that Israel is planning the transfer of tens of thousands of Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt.

Evidence of the Israeli transfer plan has been sent to London based Islington Friends of Yibna** [IFY] (What ** or what Islington Friends of Yibna means I am unable to find out and this makes me very suspicious). The following is and excerpt:  “...Earlier today, Sat 17 Jan 09, IFY received a photo of tents outside the main hospital in Egyptian Rafah, near the border with Gaza.

[Photo embedded in the article:  The white tents with no markings are being erected by the Egyptian Army, starting last night, Fri 16 Jan 09. The photo was taken this morning [Sat 17 January 09]. The soldiers stated that 5,000 tents were planned for refugees from Gaza.]

Further information is available from our contacts in the Egyptian side of Rafah [Rafah was divided by Israel after it occupied Gaza and Sinai in 1967; Israel divided Rafah when Sinai was returned to Egypt]”

Does this strike anyone else as odd?  The entire article is specious in that there is no corroboration of the claims.  We are here for just the facts mam, and oh yeah, the trooth, the whole trooth, and nothing but the trooth.

Now I ran across this site too http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-134662-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html  that I found intriguing as well since it is Canadian, which doesn’t make it more veritable but it is a slightly different perspective from the US. “IDRC is a Canadian Crown corporation that works in close collaboration with researchers from the developing world in their search for the means to build healthier, more equitable, and more prosperous societies.”  I was wondering if they have found any solutions to the biggest problem facing the world today:  The Problem of the Palestinian Self-determination?  What I found is also curious, the first three citations when the world Palestinian is typed into their Search box is the Oroub El-Abed book, “Unprotected Palestinians in Egypt since 1948.”  Now the title says a bit more than what is seen at first glance. 

Also a most fascinating interview with Marwan Muasher by Tavis Smiley see http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200806/20080626_muasher.html
gives a good rational and status of the 2-state solution.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

2 of 2
Muasher again: “The idea of the U.S. being sort of an honest broker of giving equal attention to each side’s interests is an idea that all sides practically have abandoned.”

The Palestinians have been in Egypt since 1948:  61 years.  One would think they would have been assimilated to a great degree, if not all degrees, into Egyptian culture, or sub-culture given that the Brotherhood was founded in Egypt? No?  No, because the Egyptians look down upon the Palestinians as sub-human Arabs, and used as needed for political reasons and for free money from the US, well, maybe not quite free, as there are strings, right?

We who reside to some measure on these forums just have to get real.  There is a lot of blowing out both ends and it is time to plug them up!

How are we to determine the truth?  OzarkMichael says one thing, Shingo says another. The rest of us try to add to the history of things and interestingly enough we do, but the argument surrounds the two gentlemen noted.  So again, what can be considered the truth, and are we truly interested in it?  That is the crux of this entire forum.

Shingo, I read on earlier posts that OM agrees with Livni and expressed concerns if Netanyahu won the Israeli Parliament.  She along with Olmert, testify they want a 2-state solution.  A very revealing article by Stephen M. Walt, Foreign Policy, a printed arm of the CIA, nonetheless some interesting gems of information may be gleaned about a view of what is going on. If there is a counter-article I would be glad to read it.  I think along with poet, William Arthur Ward, it is time to “adjust the sails.”

I cannot argue against the review by Gadi Taub of the book you reference from the Heinrich Boll Stiftung, Israel site.  I will read the review later.  The one comment that caught my eye as I scanned the review was this:  “It all took place in a shady, gray area of politics, law, economy and ideology, the contours of which were never clear.  Settlement was always a semi-legal, semi-clandestine operation.”  Taub does make a compelling if self-serving case (self-serving as in saving an Israeli perspective), when he writes:  “...the book’s deeper flaw lies elsewhere: It fails to articulate what its own pages so clearly add up to, the bottom line that explains why Israel’s government and Israel’s electorate finally rejected the project of settlement. This is what recent years have brought into sharp focus: that Zionism and settlement are ideological opposites.
Zionism is about one territory on this earth where Jews could be a majority, and exercise the right to self-determination. Settlement, on the other hand, is about redeeming the land of our forefathers, as part of the larger plan of religious salvation. Zionism is about a democratic nation state; settlement leads to a binational state with a ruling Jewish minority. For Zionism, a Jewish democracy is the end; for settlers, the Jewish state is but a means to redemption.
The two could avoid facing their rivalry in a cloud of war smoke, or in the effort to combat terrorism or in high rhetoric about what they really share — a belief in the need for a Jewish state. But their ultimate values were destined to clash. The Arab population of the occupied territories is fast approaching 4 million. Along with Israel’s 1 million Arab citizens within the Green Line, Israel would have an Arab majority by 2010. As the meaning of these numbers became clear, the “demographic question” came to the fore: Birth rates in the territories far exceed both those of Jews and those of Arab citizens within the Green Line. Jewish collective self-determination is now at serious risk.” 

Rational argument must not be dismissed out of hand because of a one-point perspective if that perspective is truthful.  If another article argues, even if a one-pointed perspective is offered, that counters Taub, again, I would be glad to read it, as I think others would be too.

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

I said: “The pretense of objectivity is the greatest intellectual flaw of the modern non-believer.”

Shingo corrects me: Actually that’s the second greatest.  The greatest is the pretense of truth.

I heartity disagree. We all of us should call it like we see it, and we all of us should strive to be reflecting the truth in our opinions. i will never fault anyone for that.

An agnostic’s/atheists claim of objectivity, a claim they base on the fact that they dont believe, is a flaw that i will fault them for.

I cite it frequently because it was compiled by Israeli scholars and only recently translated from Hebrew into English.  This makes it hard for Israel’s amen corner to dismiss is as anti Israeli or Ara propaghanda.

So if i found a palestinian scholar who thought hamas should not rule, or that palestine should not be an independant state…then it wouldnt be propaganda? it would be hard to dismiss? the Palestinian amen corner would have a hard time?

I doubt it.

You will call that palestinian a traitor.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 17, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Shingo, March 17 at 8:29 am #

OzarkMichael,

“The pretense of objectivity is the greatest intellectual flaw of the modern non-believer.”

Actually that’s the second greatest.  The greatest is the pretense of truth.
*****************************************************

When I read this I almost choked and spat my soft drink all over my keyboard and screen!

Thanks for the belly-laugh, Shingo!

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 5:50 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said: This smacks of Fadelism, that tendency to catagorize everything and everyone that agrees with your position as ‘scholarly’ and ‘good’, while that which does not is discarded as ‘faux’ and ‘evil’.

I cite it frequently because it was compiled by Israeli scholars and only recently translated from Hebrew into English.  This makes it hard for Israel’s amen corner to dismiss is as anti Israeli or Ara propaghanda.

OzarkMichael said: A wonderful debating technique, but not conducive to scholarly discussion.

It’s not a debating technique, it’s called citing sources.  Of course, you are always welcome to cite a scholarly rebuttal that counters the argument.

What you are employing (as you often do) is the age old avoidance technique employed by lawyers.  When the law is against you, argue the case.  When the case is against you, argue the law.

Here is an excerbt from a review of this book:

“Many studies exist detailing one aspect or another of the story of Israel’s settlement of its occupied territories. None, however, in Hebrew or in any other language, has tried to tell the full story. “Lords of the Land,” by Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar, is the first attempt to give a more-or-less full account. This in itself is a fact worth pondering, because such settlement was by far the most important political story in Israel in the past four decades.”


http://www.boell.org.il/en/web/315.html

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 5:33 am Link to this comment

The siege of 2006 killed nearly a 1000 Palestinians.  I have quoted from the book, Lords of the Land many times and I will again, because this scholarly study was carried out by Israeli historians.

This smacks of Fadelism, that tendency to catagorize everything and everyone that agrees with your position as ‘scholarly’ and ‘good’, while that which does not is discarded as ‘faux’ and ‘evil’.

A wonderful debating technique, but not conducive to scholarly discussion.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 5:29 am Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

“The pretense of objectivity is the greatest intellectual flaw of the modern non-believer.”

Actually that’s the second greatest.  The greatest is the pretense of truth.

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By OzarkMichael, March 17, 2009 at 5:25 am Link to this comment

I actually sat down once and read Revelations, or, as I think of it, The Ravings of St. John the Demented.  Since I’m not a believer, my view was unbiased

The pretense of objectivity is the greatest intellectual flaw of the modern non-believer.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 5:17 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 1 of 2

I agree with much of what you have to say about the ruling class in Egypt and Jordan.  There leaders of these states are obscenely wealthy, yet Jordan and Egypt are the second and third highest recipients of US aid.

It is tempting to blame these states for these anomalies, but this is the unholy marriage that the US has entered into.  While we condemn independent states like Venezuela and Russia for not being sufficiently democratic, we continue to applaud these dictatorships for the baby steps they are supposedly making towards democracy.  As I’ve pointed out in previous posts, we have never been concerned with democracy because democratic leaders are not only unpredictable, but won’t take orders from us.  These leaders would fall overnight if we were to withdraw our support for them.

The fact that the Palestinians were interned in camps after the Arab-Israeli wars of 1948 and 1967 is pretty conclusive evidence that they did not emigrate, but were refugees and forced to leave their homes.  Word of poor conditions in these camps would have filtered back to the territories and halted the flood of refugees.

Populations don’t emigrate unless there is a promise of a better life and refugee camps are hardly a step in the right direction. 

The treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza during the 2008-2009 was hardly unique.  The siege of 2006 killed nearly a 1000 Palestinians.  I have quoted from the book, Lords of the Land many times and I will again, because this scholarly study was carried out by Israeli historians.

“After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.”

Yes, the endemic poverty of the Palestinians is not limited to the conditions they have experienced under Israel, but it does highlight the absolute urgency for why an autonymous and independent Palestinians state is so necessary. 

The reasons why the Palestinians get so little support are varied.  Dictatorship such as the Arab states are not ruled by egalitarian identities.  There is no political cache to be earned by throwing money at the Palestinians.  This is exacerbated by US foreign policy which has marginalized all Palestinian leaders are equated them with sub human status and branded them as terrorists.  When Hamas were elected, the US applied significant pressure on all countries to withold financial aid to Gaza.

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By Shingo, March 17, 2009 at 5:16 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 2 of 2

It’s true that when people emigrate to the United States, the UK, Canada or Australila they are not put into camps!  When they refugees they usually are put into camps.  The same goes for Jordan etc.

The event of the January 2008 Rafah and El Arish opening was not so much an opening as it was an escape.  The Israeli troops manned there didn’t bother using their weapons because quite smply, they knew they didn’t have enough bullets to stem the tide.

The willingness of the Palestinians to spend money on luxury items, even when over priced, was similar in many ways to what we witnessed when the Berlin wall fell and East Germans flooded into West Germany and spent the money being handed to them at the border.  Even though the money handed to them was more than many of them had ever seen, they didn’t hoard the money. They spent it in a wave of euphoria and celebration.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 17, 2009 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

Truthoverlies:

Ethiopia is and always has been a Christian nation, until it became nominally Marxist, at least in Addis Ababa.  Ethiopians have been Christian longer than YOUR European ancestors, and more consistently.  In fact, they claim that THE Ark of the Covenant is in Axum.  The system of churches cut out of the living rock and interconnected by tunnels is unequaled in the world.  From above, you’ll see a giant hole in the rock shaped like a cross, and inside will be the church.  Many of these churches were constructed when Europeans were still building in wood.

I actually sat down once and read Revelations, or, as I think of it, The Ravings of St. John the Demented.  Since I’m not a believer, my view was unbiased and I saw a crazy, hate-filled man who was spewing his rage at a world that wouldn’t believe as he did simply because he said so.  So he threatened all kinds of pain and horror on those non-believers, like a fore-runner to Dante’s “Inferno” (Abandon all hope Ye who enter here).

“eternity” to religious believer seems like an incredibly short time, especially since they believe the universe is only 6,000 years old, instead of 13.2 billion years.  When you realize that the current universe is 13.2 billion years old, and will exist for a minimum of 1 trillion years (1,000 billion) and a maximum of 10 to 200th power years, eternity gets an awful lot longer!

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 1:05 am Link to this comment

I’m afraid Trithoverlies,I had to do a double take on your last post.  Shingo has a very good point.  Your ranting is among other things, incoherent and appears as blather.  If you cleaned it up, some of us might actually consider what you might be proposing.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

1 of 2
Its amazing.  Proof is requested and only further argument is provided.  Someone is a fool. 

Egypt and Jordan are not really poor countries.  They have plenty of money.  Well that is not quite right.  The wealthy class does not share its money with the inhabitants of their respective countries.  The personal wealth of King Abdullah of about $21 billion dollars that would go a long way towards reducing the poverty in Jordan.  Ah, but of course a large part of the population of Jordan is Palestinian (42%) and are ‘immigrants’ having migrated from what is called the Mandate of Palestine that ended in 1948.  The Palestinians emigrated to Jordan and were interned in camps there and elsewhere after the Arab-Israeli wars of 1948 and 1967.  And it is well known, and most obvious, that the Palestinians are not considered as having any status.

Aside from the Gaza war of 2008-2009, the treatment of Palestinians in Israel has paralleled that of Jordan. Poverty and poverty-related issues among Palestinian refugees in Jordan, its political and historical legacy translates into economic hardship today. Poverty among the refugees in Jordan represents a legacy of the refugees’ inability to generate sufficient income to be able to provide for themselves the ‘minimum basic needs’. Therefore, poverty should be understood not only in terms of the social and economic circumstances of Palestinian camp refugees but also as a particular consequence of various policies pursued by the state over the past five decades, including a Jordanization of public and military sectors of employment, the provision of public services, and wage determination policy. It behooves the world to take a look at the whole Palestinian ‘problem,’ the causes of these people’s endemic poverty and how various ‘implicit’ policies has contributed towards ensnaring and forcing a large number of camp refugees in poverty, particularly the camps at Zarqa and Sukhneh. It is not readily apparent because of the intentionally inchoate aura that pits the Palestinians only against the Jews in Israel. 

This glamorization of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians in the territories within the Israeli borders, more or less answers the question I have been posing for weeks now on this thread and none has addressed it adequately or at all really.  That is why the Palestinians get support only from a terrorist organization, Hamas, and none or very little from the other principals of the Arab Empire. 

Fact is that the Palestinians have been confined in camps in every country to which they emigrated.  If it was just one country that did that interned the Palestinians then we could point a finger and say they were being nazi-like.  But when every country hedges in the same ethnic refugees and keeps them there for the duration, then there is something about the refugees themselves that invites such treatment.  For instance, when anyone emigrates to the United States they are not put into camps!  So let’s due talk about freedom of life as well as freedom of speech!

There is not a dearth of books written on the Palestinian refugee forced migration problem and one such work by Oroub El-Abed, Unprotected Palestinians in Egypt since 1948, analyzed the effects of the wavering Egyptian government policies on the Palestinian way of life.  With limited basic human rights and in the ambience of extremely poor living conditions for Egyptians in general, Palestinians in Egypt have had to employ an array of both tangible and intangible assets to survive.

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By Shenonymous, March 17, 2009 at 12:55 am Link to this comment

2 of 2
I have often said on this forum and others, that nothing is as it seems.  Perception often dictates reality. In Egypt, in January 2008, when the border at Rafah and El Arish was open to Palestinians they streamed across by the thousands to do what?  To go shopping!  This is a excerpt of the NYT article, “Watching the Party End for Gazans in Egypt,”  dated Jan. 27, 2008 by Nadim Audi. The scene on Friday morning was one of intense euphoria. Palestinians flooded the streets of El Arish, a middle-class vacation town, and were out on a major shopping spree. Everything imaginable was available for a price. Chinese motorbikes, pimped with stars and eagles to look like Harley Davidsons: $800. A pair of goats: $150.

Everything including the kitchen sink was overpriced, but that didn’t faze the Gazans at first. They bought Egyptian cigarettes, candy, furniture -– and, above all, potato chips. By far, that was the most popular item, and many Gazans learned a new skill: carrying boxes of chips on their heads while nibbling, on their way to more shopping.

If there was bitterness at Egyptians’ over-pricing most goods, it was short-lived. People were too happy with their newly-gained freedom to bother with resentment — in the beginning, at least.

However, as nighttime arrived, the reality between the Egyptians and Palestinians. the trouble that is, became more obvious, and troublesome. 

Not that the Palestinians ought not to go shopping like any other group of people would enjoy.  What was so glaring to me, is that Palestinians are not so poor that they cannot go shopping in Egypt!  The items they shopped for were not the staples thought as necessities of life, no they shopped for luxury items.  So…..what should we make of all this?  What can we make of all this?

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By Shingo, March 16, 2009 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Your ramblings are sometime quite entertaining.  he you are dissecting when the Gospel was written, yet ignore the fact that it has undergone a number of translations, not to mention that fact that throughout the 2000 history, has undoubtedly been doctored and revised.

Needless to say, the story of Christ has is based on an ancient fable that has been recycled since Horus and beyond.

You never did answer if you believe in the last days, the Jews will be forced to accept Christ or perish.  Where do you stand on that?

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By Shingo, March 16, 2009 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

“It has long lead me to believe that the Arab states don’t really give a damn about the Palestinians, other than as a pawn against Israel.”

I think it’s a little more complicated than that.  It’s a little bit like how we are happy to insult our own family members in private, but heaven help anyone outside the family try it.

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By Trithoverlies, March 16, 2009 at 9:01 pm Link to this comment

Leefeler,and Shingo,
Did you know that Jordans largest population group is Palestinian/Arab about 62% not the ruling Hashimite Arab Tribe so you are right there is no love lost but when it comes to the jews both will conspirer to rid the world of Jews just as they will Join with the Syrians, Lebonese, Saudi Arabians,  Lybians, Suddan, Chad, Ethiopia, Somalia, Yeman, and Iran. Throw the Russians and her Federation of Islamic stans and the rising radicals in Pakistan will one day soon come to attack Israel on the Golan Hieghts and it will be these allies that lose 70% of their men and equipment and Israel will be burrying the dead for seven monthes and will have enough energy to stand against the Antichrist for the last 3 1/2 years The Time of Jacobs troubles, this is the time after the Anti Christ breaks the treaty and Invades Israel e will declare he is God in their Temple and Desicrate it in some other ways murder of the High priest maybe which would make the time of Desolation spoken of by Daniel 2530 years ago. And repeated by Jesus the Christ in 30 A.D. the week before His Crucifixion
and Resurection te referances are Daniel 9:24-27. and Jesus in Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; and Luke 21:20; and in Rev. 13:5-18. when the Antichrist breaks the seven years Peace Treaty. Nice try mjt01, but you don’t have a leg to stand on the majority text and even one of the minority set of 5400 text in Greek says differant so go ahaed keep denying the Bible as truth and one day soon you will be told take my mark and worship me or my image the number is the number of man 666 but that is not Nero as some few pretorist believe. The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is first of all written after 90 A.D. so it could not be Nero as you claim for Nero had been dead since 67 A.D. and it was not Domation or Caligula who had been dead in about 41 A.D. so you have been fed some mis imformation which is the favorite tool of the Evil One.  He loves to put out misimformation especially about the Bible like there are thousand of errors in the copies and that their are meny contridictions.  You love to dispute what you don’t want to believe but in this case you are dead wrong on the number so take it like man and learn not to believe every contridiction your teachers,or profs, or scholars tell you learn some disernment before you go talking about something you don’t even believe in. we Have old latin dating back to 190 A.D. that says 666 not 616 as you suggest, we have twenty thosand manuscripts that the number was 666 and we can date the Gospel of John to about 84 A.D. and the three letters to 90 A.D. ant the Book of Revelation to 94 A.D. the end of Domations reign in 95 A.D. You get a prise for comming up with a failed theory that has been disproven in the last thirty years through literary, and textual criticisms that date the language to the last twenty years of the first century in other words between 80 A.D. and 100 A.D. not before the death of Nero and deffinatly not before the death of Caligula in 41 A.D.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2009 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

OM,

Shingo’s right on this one: There’s no love lost between the Palestinians and either the Egyptians or the Jordanians.  In fact, the Palestinians are NOT very well regarded by any of their fellow Arabs.  As for fellow Moslems, I was shocked in Turkey, a country of the nicest people, how they dislike Arabs in general (far more, surprisingly than Greeks) but utterly DETEST Palestinians to the point of practically spitting at them!  I’ve seen it.

Palestinians are seen as trouble-makers, bringing troubles and violence with them—like, for the longest time, the Northern Irish.

It has long lead me to believe that the Arab states don’t really give a damn about the Palestinians, other than as a pawn against Israel.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2009 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said: My recipe may be flawed but it is the best chance for peace.

There is too much water under the bridge for the Palestinians to settle for anything less than their own autonomy.  Peace requires the Palestinians to have their own state and self determination.  Under your proposal, none of these would be come to fruition.

OzarkMichael said: Jordan, Egypt could be asked to step up and do something for the sake of peace. They have the ability to do it and we might help them somehow. not with troops.

You voiced concerns earlier about the cost of establishing a Palestinian state.  How much cheaper is this going to be give that Jordan and Egypt are poor countries who can ill afford to accommodate an impoverished population?

OzarkMichael said: What “treatment” do you mean?

One this that has always dismayed me is how Arabs treat each other.

Look up Black September.  There’s no love lost between the Palestinians and the Jordanians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

As for Egypt, the Palestinians are unlikely to recognize the leadership Mubarak government, especially given that he is a tyrant.

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By OzarkMichael, March 16, 2009 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Shingo said: In which case I owe you an apology, though your recipe is flawed and still denies the Palestinians a right o self determination.

Apology accepted. My recipe may be flawed but it is the best chance for peace.

Shingo explains: First,  Jordan and Egypt have expressed no desire to have back those territories.  It’s understandable why - they would inherit the mess created by Israel.

Jordan, Egypt could be asked to step up and do something for the sake of peace. They have the ability to do it and we might help them somehow. not with troops.
 
Furthermore, given the treatment these states have given the Palestinians, it’s clear the Palestinians would have no desire to be ruled by these states.

What “treatment” do you mean?

You also say that the Palestinians have no desire to be ruled by these states. You assume I know all this but I do not.

Unfortunately at this point I cant just take your word for it. So please prove it.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2009 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

OzarkMichael said: Shingo, are you saying that the Palestinians were not ruled by anyone except for the Crusaders and later the British, and then the nation of Israel?

No I am saying that the Arab’s were tribal groups who had no concept of borders.  Shenonymous was making the argument that because the Palestinians never created a states and borders, they never wanted one.  The fact is that none of the Arab states had borders.

OzarkMichael said: My opinion that a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State is a bad idea… does not make me a racist.

With all due respects OM, you don’t do yourself any favors by being so shady about where you stand.  It seems every time you are asked a question, you avoid giving a straight answer, and which suggests you are afraid or ashamed of your position.

What have you got to hide.

OzarkMichael said: My opinion that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines and allow Jordan, Egypt, and syria to reclaim what they lost… does not mean i hate Arabs.

In which case I owe you an apology, though your recipe is flawed and still denies the Palestinians a right o self determination. 

First,  Jordan and Egypt have expressed no desire to have back those territories.  It’s understandable why - they would inherit the mess created by Israel.  Furthermore, given the treatment these states have given the Palestinians, it’s clear the Palestinians would have no desire to be ruled by these states.

So what you are proposing is something neither the Palestinians nor Jordan or Egypt want.

With this in mind, there are only a few conclusions.  Either:
a) You are proposing something you know will fail, because you prefer the status quo.
b) You regard the Palestinians as sub human and incapable of self determination and running their own affairs - which is racist.
c) You are ignorant of the history of the region and the tensions that exist between the interests you have mentioned.

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By Leefeller, March 16, 2009 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

Om,

From what I have seen or read on this thread, I have never thought of you as burning crosses on people front lawns?  On other posts I have seen bigots with capital “B’s” in front of their names.  Must say the circular arguments have grown long of tooth. 

It is interesting,  one over time acquires a profile of personality concepts from different posters on these threads,  some posters I can disagree with and respect their opinions.  When the contingent started slamming everyone who did not buy their snake oil, by going after them and accusing them of being Zionists, is not a way to gain respect or promote a point, unless it is the one on top of their heads.

Actually I have lumped Shingles into one of those posters I do not read anymore, so I missed his or her exposing you as a Nazi or racist seems wishful thinking on their part.  We know name calling only surfaces when all else fails, sometimes before when they did not have anything to begin with. 

Accusations of “exposing” someone is supposed to lend significance and credibility to a comment?

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By OzarkMichael, March 16, 2009 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

ooops, the beginning of my last post was not meant to be part of that post. it was the beginning of another, namely:

Shingo says of the Palestinians: They never established a nation or had a ‘national identity’ because such a concept was foreign to them.


Shingo, are you saying that the Palestinians were not ruled by anyone except for the Crusaders and later the British, and then the nation of Israel?

Now I want to answer something else. I am going to answer a charge against myself from Shingo. I have found that defending myself against the charges of racism, fascism, nazism is a waste of time. But just once and for the record:

My opinion that a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State is a bad idea… does not make me a racist.

My opinion that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines and allow Jordan, Egypt, and syria to reclaim what they lost… does not mean i hate Arabs.

So this ‘exposing’ of racism which Shingo is waving around like a bloody shirt has no basis in reality. It is either an intentional lie(deception) or Shingo is just not very bright. He will protest that he is not decieving. That leaves only one option. 

Meanwhile, answering charges of ‘hatred’ and ‘racism’ is exactly the game plan that “Defamation of Religions” has in store for people like me. I do not plan to respond to any more of these so called questions, which are really only false accusations designed to entangle and stall investigation into the real issues.

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By OzarkMichael, March 16, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

Shingo says of the Palestinians: They never established a nation or had a ‘national identity’ because such a concept was foreign to them.

First I said: “These Muslims were plotting to enter the U.S. Army base in Fort Dix, New Jersey and murder as many soldiers as they could. Mohamad Shnewer (the only American citizen among the
convicted men), was caught on tape saying, “They are the ones, we are going to put bullets in their heads, Allah willing.”

Shingo takes exception to it: Except that they were never charged with this crime were they?

and then he makes this comment: I’m not expecting much of an answer from OM, at least not a cogent or rational once. 


I will try to make it plainer for you. The Jihadists were charged and convicted of exactly what i said. Here I will bold print what they were convicted of:

Plotting to massacre U.S. soldiers.

And they were again found guilty this month on appeal.

But for Shingo to be convinced they are guilty he would need what? Some dead soldiers at Fort Dix?

Which is a much more ‘cogent’ and ‘rational’ sort of proof than I desire to give him.

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By Trithoverlies, March 16, 2009 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Shingo,
You are right all terrorist are not Muslim but the facts are that the vast majority are Muslim Extremist. So you are right to remind us that all terrorist aren’t Muslim but even some that aren’t have met with Muslim terror cells such was the case with Timothy McVee before he killed 169 people. If there were only 1% of the Muslim population of 1.5 billion that are terrorist thats 15 million terrorist world wide, and if it is 20% as most Intel. organizations believe then thats about 300 million terrorist world wide.  This is not a police problem this is a war just as Pres. Bush said. The problem is that these terrorist do not care a rip about the people they maim, or kill and they don’t follow any rules of warfare targeting only the Military to them anyone is fair game you or I are fair game fellow muslims are fair game. So How do we fight them?  The Cultural Anthropolegist would say change their environment, but that doesn’t explain why there are so meny that are wealthy such as Ben Ladin so changing the environment want change them. So what next Kill them all, NO that want work either, rehabillitate them that isn’t working when 60% of those captured are released and they go right back to planning to kill us so what works?  The only thing that has worked is for the terrorist to find Jesus Christ and accept Him as the Savior and LORD you will find that every terrorist that has accepted Jesus has changed, there is no other option accept to incarcerate them for LIFE.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2009 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

Thanks, Shingo. 

I find the statement that “all terrorists are Moslem” to be so profoundly insane I cannot believe anyone made it—or believes it.  The numbers of examples to the contrary are obvious, like
1) McVeigh and Nicols, the Ok. City bombers—white supremacists with a weird “Christian” twist.
2) Eric Rudolf, the Atlanta Olympics bomber, another “Christian” virulent anti-abortion opponent.
3) The IRA—need I say more?
4) The Tamil Tigers.
5) Basque separatists.
6) “The Shining Path”.
7) Darth Cheney (couldn’t resist throwing him in—but he qualifies).

These are just a minuscule few of the non-Moslem terrorists.

I thought Begin was a putz from the moment he appeared on the international scene until the day he was planted.

I was nearly ATTACKED by an Orthodox member in the mid-90’s for suggesting that Sharon was a war criminal and needed to be tried as such.  I’m not sure I see how he went from fomenting the refugee camp massacre by surrogate militias to breaking with Likud to form the Kadima party and advocating a true 2-state solution.

Now he lies in a coma and is no different, politically, than being dead.

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By Shingo, March 16, 2009 at 4:42 am Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I can’t find too many faults with your arguments about the significance of the Irgun, Stern or Hagana, but Israel’s propaghanda machine invites these comparisons with their moralistic posturing and insistence on referring to all their enemies as terrorists.  Statements by the likes of Dan Gillerman that “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims”, or that “we don’t talk to terrorists”, don’t help either.  Speaking of the UN, Begin openly boasted about his role in the assassination of Count Bernadotte, but that’s another story.

The rise to prominence of Begin and Yitzak Shamir should highlight the fine line between terrorist and political legitmacy.  Along with the peace process in Northern Ireland, it gives us hope that even those as extreme and militant as Hamas recognize that in the face of peace and moderation, they either adapt or become irrelevant.

There’s a fairly obvious explanation for why the numbers of terrorist attacks against Israel outnumbers those by the Irgun and co, which is the length of the respective struggles. The Irgun and Stern gangs were active for a handful of years, because they achieved their aims.  60 years has seen little to celebrate wither you are the PLO or Hamas.

While Israelis may have opposed the Irgun, the world of politics can change overnight, which accounts for why Shamir and Begin became PMs. There was a time Sharon was despised in Israel, yet he’s probably revered as one of Israel’s strongest leaders. The part he played in Shabra and Shatilla massacre was appalling, but I’d chose him over Netenyahu any day.

I can’t tell you what’s in the heart of the Hamas political leadership, only that I see signs in Hamas to be optimistic. 

What I respect about you ITW, is that you are a realist and not prone to fear mongering. I find that many Jews who support Israel seem to have a need to stoke their own fear.  The historical reasons for this are obvios, but even when you try to offer hope or reason for optimism, there is a tendency to opt for the worst case scenario.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 16, 2009 at 3:49 am Link to this comment

Let us remember that the Irgun was very much like Hamas—a very small, very fanatical group of terrorists who committed only one major terrorist act and a bunch of minor ones.  I have no more sympathy for Irgun than I do for Hamas, but I think its influence has been blown all out of proportion to try to show that the early Israelis were no different than the Palestinians.  They wanted to shut down criticism that Israel was dealing with Arafat who had been a terrorist by pointing out that Begin was a terrorist as well…and that card has been played and played and played until both Begin and Arafat are now long dead.

The numbers of terrorist attacks against Israel outnumbers the numbers of attacks by Irgun by at least 2 orders of magnitude.  That doesn’t justify Irgun—that’s not my intention—it simply points out how much less its influence was.  Jews openly opposed Irgun—how many Gazans openly oppose Hamas (as opposed to wishing Hamas would go away)?

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Re Ben Gurion, I think it’s pretty clear that plans were afoot for the transfer of Arabs long before it actually took place.

Re Ilan Pappe’s position about one state solution, the suggestion is not a radical as it seems. With the Israeli settlements in the West Bank being so extensive, some have taken the position that a Palestinian state would be impossible or impractical.

Thus there are those who formerly supported a 2 state solution, who are now embracing a single state.  This
is not motivated by a desire to Send the existence of Israel, but a consideration of what is the more realistic outcome.

Benny Morris has indeed been controversial on both sides of the argument, mainly because he is far from being a left wing pinko.  He differs from Pappe in so much as Morris believes the ethnic cleansing was a mistake, but was not pre-planned.  Morris’ critics on the right have stirred up a great deal of noise, but haven’t actually debunked his thesis.

Shlomo Ben Ami describes himself as an ardent Zionist and cimited to a 2 state solution because he believes it is in Israel’s best interests.

I don’t envisage a sterotype of rooling half-mad Israelis driving out weeping women and children, but these gangs were calculating.  They did blow up the King David Hotel and murder British Soldiers, so their ideology was clearly strong enough to carry this plan out.

And like I said, it beggars belief that for half a century, Zionists were openly advocating the need to transfer the Arabs to secure a Jewish majority state, and then one day it happens, just by happy coincidence.  Personally I don’t believe that acts of God are that specific, even when it comes to his chosen.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, March 15 at 11:08 pm #

Inherit The Wind,

OK I take it back, it was an honest mistake.
***************************************************

Hey, no problem, man!

***************************************************
  I still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone on this list wanting Israeli Jews to be forced out of Israel.

If they have, then they should be condemned.
**************************************************

You should read what Wadosy and Ed Harges write here at T-D…it’s pretty damn scary.  It makes George Botch’s teams’ junked-out “testimony”  against Saddam Hussein seem like procedural objections.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

Ben Gurion even told us that this was precisely what happened.

On July 12, 1937, Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary explaining the benefits of the compulsory population transfer (which was proposed in British Peel Commission):
**************************************************

I’m confused—Ben Gurion described in 1937 what happened in 1948?  Damn! I wish I could do that!  I’d clean up on Wall Street even in this market!

Ilan Pappe: From WikiPedia—-“In 1999 Pappé ran in the Knesset elections as seventh on the Communist Party-led Hadash list.[14] Ilan Pappé is a prominent supporter of the One State Solution envisaging one state for Palestinians and Israelis.”

So, Ilan Pappe is a Marxist and one-stater who thus, is BY DEFINITION opposed to the existence of Israel.

Benny Morris seems to have earned the ire of BOTH sides of the historical debate for the same reasons—both sides say he cherry-picks his sources.  That means he engages in “Reductionism”—ignoring facts that disqualify your theorem.

I know less about Shlomo Ben Ami but what little I’ve been able to glean is he focuses on the 1947/48 battles between Jews and Palestinians as a civil war, not an ethnic cleansing—and the Ben Ami is a proponent of the 2-State Solution, as both you and I agree is best.

So…..the idea of grinning, drooling half-mad Israelis driving out weeping women and children at the point of a bayonets is really NOT well-supported, is it?

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

OK I take it back, it was an honest mistake.  I still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone on this list wanting Israeli Jews to be forced out of Israel.

If they have, then they should be condemned.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

ITW.  I am going to call you on this because you know it’s a lie.  I have stated very plainly that I support a 2 state solution, just as you do.  In other words, I am for the continued existence of the state of Israel ergo, the Jews to remain in Israel.
****************************************************

Nope, you’re wrong on this Shingo. I didn’t lie. But I’ll be a nice guy and give you the benefit of the doubt that you MISSED this in my post:

” OK—maybe not Shingo—He’s down with a 2 state solution.  “

Sorry, pal, I GAVE you credit where credit is due for favoring a 2-State Solution.  Nothing to call me out about. And I’m no liar.

I figure you made an honest mistake on this one—that’s OK.

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I’m not expecting much of an answer from OM, at least not a cogent or rational once.  Since being exposed re his position pertaining to the creation of a Palestinians state, the gloves have come off .  He has ceased to hide his racism towards Arabs.

While it’s possible that terrorists aren’t intellectual giants, one has to wonder whether the stories don’t smell a tad fishy, especially in light of the similarities this case has with others before it. We have been witness to a slew of farcical cases that bear an uncanny likeness.

From OM’s original CCN link:

“Six men were arrested on May 7, 2007, in New Jersey, as two of them were meeting a confidential government witness “to purchase three AK-47 automatic machine guns and four semi-automatic M-16s to be used in an attack they had been planning from at least January 2006,” according to a criminal complaint.”

So the “confidential government witness” was involved in the procurement of these weapons.  Same as the Mini 7, when a “confidential government witness” conned a bunch of impoverished men living on the street, to agree to blow up a tower in Chicago they had never seen, in return for $50,000.

“The jury found one member of the group conducted surveillance at Fort Dix and Fort Monmouth in New Jersey, Dover Air Force Base in Delaware and the U.S. Coast Guard facility in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the U.S. attorney’s office said in a written statement”

What do they mean by conducted surveillance?  In NY setting up a tripod is regarded as surveillance. 

I recall seeing evidence in another case, where a Muslim man was locked up for life because of video footage he took of Disney World.  His footage was innucous, yet the government successfully argued that he was staking out where the bombs were going to be placed.

Nothing in either of the links provided by OM actually reveals a plot to attack Fort Dix.

“Why a jury of all Muslims most likely would not have convicted them of plotting to kill people right?”

Is not about Muslims being ethnically bound and not justice bound and you know it.  A Muslim will obviously interpret “Allahu Akbar” differently from a soccer mom.

As far as convictions go, need I remind you of the tragic case of Jose Padilla, who’s case would make Jose Kafka look like an optimist.

The case against Mayer Arar, the Canadian, who having been held for year, tortured and released without charge was compensated to the tune of $10 million by the Canadian government,  The US government insist they still have “evidence” against him.

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By Leefeller, March 15, 2009 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

She,

Chiming in here! Must say I refuse to read anyting written by Fiddle Faddle, ever since I had the misfortune to read his insulting post to Ozark M. when at the same time, he insulted all posters on this public forum demanding that we accept his manhood as a given and his extensive description of his mail member the dancing penis. I guess we should have all been pleased not to hear about his prostate problem?  The amusing fact that the contingent ignored his crass comments like they were supposed to be accepted because he is an alleged “Dr.” who specializing in paranormal social retardation, evidently one who practices what he teaches.

Though, I asked him for an apology, one was not forthcoming.

So, I am mentioning this because he is one poster I refuse to read, now that I think of it, several others, also, but not for the same reasons.

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

part 1 of 2

I didn’t demand anything from ITW.  ITW was using the argument that the law of the jungle has become the defacto international law.  Because other countries had committed genocide and incidentally cleansed indigenous populations, then Israel should not be singled out for doing the same.

The argument about who was there first is moot, you would agree, because Israel’s legitimacy was not founded on the Jewish claim to the the land of Palestine, but a UN declaration.  In any case, towns like Jericho date back 4 and 5 millenia, and certainly pre-date Judaism.  Those populations did not simply dissapear and were certainly the ancestors of the Arabs of today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_inhabited_cities

Question:  Why, when the Jews in the land called Israel today, and when they were under the control of the Arab Islamic marauder in 636 AD, was not a Palestinian State or Country created then? 

Answer:  Were any Arab states in existence at all? 
No.  The reason is because borders were not the way the Arabs did business.  Villages and towns existed yes, but not states.  That was a Roman concept.

We know the Egyptians have been in existence for eons, thousands of years, but they do not consider themselves a Arabs.

No, but they do consider themselves a people and that is the only point that matters.  Whether the indigenous population of Palestine were Arabs or otherwise is irrelevant is it not?  Yes, populations were conquered, but they were rarely eliminated or wiped out.

A recent research paper by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand, has proposed that the Romans didn’t expel whole nations from their territories. Zand estimates that perhaps 10,000 ancient Judeans were vanquished during the Roman wars, and the remaining inhabitants of ancient Judea remained, converting to Islam and assimilating with their conquerors when Arabs subjugated the area. They became the progenitors of today’s Palestinian Arabs, many of whom now live as refugees who were exiled from their homeland during the 20th century.
As Israel’s former foreign minister says, the idea that Israel was a land without a people for a people without a land is pure fantasy.

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Part 2 of 2

While some Arabs might have migrated into the land of Palestine, there was an existing population that was not Jewish, with whom they have since assimilated.  They never established a nation or had a ‘national identity’ because such a concept was foreign to them.
At the time of Israel’s creation, there was definitively a thriving Palestinians community. It was vibrant, sophisticated and self sustaining.
One only need to look at these historical records to realize that.

http://www.uruknet.de/?colonna=m&p=51428&l=x&size=1&hd=0

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By Shenonymous, March 15, 2009 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Night Gauntlet, I am terribly sorry you are unable to read contiguously which is the way most of us read.  We, who write pages and pages on the TD, and I am one who sometimes does that, as everybody knows, sometimes just as an act of retaliation, and other times with the intention to be didactic, like to read our posts as one page, like many articles do, please check out such news services that do that, like NYT, LAT, Reuters, etc., ad infinitum and ad nauseum.  So I will continue with mah style.  We, I, always number my pages so you ought to be able to adapt.  Oh, before you complain about my using Latin, it is a habit I picked up, mysteriously I think some blow flies bit me, I won’t tell you where.  It is almost like a disease.  You know, just f off if you have a whole lot of trouble reading things in order.  And yes, I am not intending to be nice.  At least I didn’t tell you to go shoot yourself, only because I am against violence.  Oh, oh, you could copy and paste these contiguous posts to a word processing program then rearrange them so you can feel comfortable as you read the only way you have learned to read blog posts.

Indeed ITW, I am soooo glad you said castigated and not castrated which is what they try to do to you, OM and Leefeller.  But ah em a chick!  An ex-Valley girl, f’sure, f’sure.  Now about this business of wanting the Jews to emmigrate elsewhere, I have heard The Contingent say that the Jews could invade all the other countries in the world where they should emigrated to because there was a Jew or two, or more there, at one time.  The entire idea is incredibly stupid.  Ah donut know Wadosy, where is that chap? Is he an anti-Semite who wants to get into the extermination business like The Orkin Service to Exterminate Jews (TOSTEJ) or something? Such a business, my Yiddish friends vood sey?  Being a non-violent person myself, I will boycott them! It’s the least I can do.

I see Shingo has joined us on this very fine and productive Sunday.  I’m sure OM will answer you, but I can’t help noticing you find it as a preposterous idea that terrorists don’t have all their brains in one place.  Well, anyone who thinks they will have 72 virgins at death doesn’t have all their brains in one place.  And in LA there was a drug dealer who did grow Big Mary in his front yard!  Duh!  And you now questioning the make up of a jury is what is preposterous.  By the way, were you part of their defense team?  Now let’s also see, 9/11 happened like almost 8 years ago, and this trial was just this year?  Why a jury of all Muslims most likely would not have convicted them of plotting to kill people right?  Is that because Muslims are ethnicity bound and not justice bound?  Now if I were an arrested jihadist who was charged with plotting to kill someone, I would also say “I wasn’t ‘seriously’ planning to do it! You idiots!  Awe, ahs wez jes jokin.’”  ‘Specially since in America Muslims are never profiled for anything, and that is why so many Muslims, who are in reality nearly never guilty of anything except being a human being, are hardly ever harassed, right?  It is really smart, brainy, to make flagrant public statements like that! Right? Now I have known OM from only one other thread, and on that one we were more or less opponents, oh, and the other Gaza one, I almost forgot,  but I think from his history here on this forum, he will reply without a doubt, I am sure you are happy to be reminded of that.  Nevertheless, since this is a public forum, and we all get to read everything, we frequently chime in on others direct conversations.  I explained that because I just didn’t want Night Gauntlet to rag on me.  No telling what might come down the pike.  I have my body armor on, just letting everybody know, oh and my boombox.  It is dinner time and 60 Minutes!

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Sorry buddy, but Israeli historians Illap Pappae, Benny Morris and former Israeli foreign minister, Sholomo Ben Ami, have all documented the ethnic cleansing of the Arabs in 1948.

The trouble with your theory is that if the Arabs had been BEGGED to stay, then why were the denied return? Zionist leaders had been talking about driving our the Arabs since the 1880’s.  At the time of the Nakba, Arabs outnumbered Jews significantly, and thus stood in the way of the creation of a Jewish state.  We are now expected to believe that the Arabs leaving was a happy accident?

Ben Gurion even told us that this was precisely what happened.

On July 12, 1937, Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary explaining the benefits of the compulsory population transfer (which was proposed in British Peel Commission):

“The compulsory transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples. . . We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty——this is national consolidation in a free homeland.” (Righteous Victims, p. 142)
On the same subject, Ben-Gurion wrote in 1937:
“With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it.” (Righteous Victims, p. 144)

I am not denying that that many thousand of Jews were displaced from the Arab nations in response.
I agree that the creation of Israel the original as per the UN declaration was not an invasion, however, the Israeli terrorist groups, who were ARMED, did drive out the Arabs.  Some 360 Arab towns were destroyed or cleared of their inhabitants. 

Nor did I say that the purpose of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon was to DESTROY the financial and industrial strength of the Lebanese economy.  It was to destroy the PLO, because the PLO had just publicly given it’s support for a 2 state solution and thus Israel saw this as a threat. No there was no such attacks being conducted against Israel, from Lebanon ITW.

I will dig up an article that explains this.
The reason I brought up Lebanon was in response to your suggestion that only Israel has prospered and that it’s neighbors have remained stuck in the middle ages.  Lebanon as a thriving and progressive country with a big tourist industry until the 1982 invasion.
As for Lebanese elections, surely you know that they are far from democratic and very complexed.  Under Lebanon’s constitution, the leader has to be from a particular region (ie. Christian), the speaker another etc.  Under the anachronism of Lebanon’s constitution, an Arab cannot become PM of Lebanon.

BTW.  If you are referring tot he Harriri assassination, funny how an Israel spy ring was uncovered at the same time in Lebanon?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3726307.stm

Just a coincidence right?  Nothing to worry about.
“They want the Jews to emigrate from Israel and go….somewhere, but where would that be?”

ITW.  I am going to call you on this because you know it’s a lie.  I have stated very plainly that I support a 2 state solution, just as you do.  In other words, I am for the continued existence of the state of Israel ergo, the Jews to remain in Israel.

Don’t betray your own credibility by spreading these false accusations.

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By Shingo, March 15, 2009 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

We’re expected to believe that a couple of guys planning terrorist attack on Fort Dix were sop clueless as to give a copy of a tape of the l[panning their attack to a local video store to have it copied on to DVD.

These guys were either never planning the attack or they were too stupid to ever carry it out. It would be analogous to a drug dealer growing marijuana plants in his front garden.

And even after uncovering the so called plot, they weren’t even charged with attempted murder.

OzarkMichael said: The jury spent days carefully deliberating the evidence before they found the defendants guilty.

Which proves what exactly?  Who were the jury members?  12 white folks who were probably at the front of the que buying duct tape after the 911 attacks?

OzarkMichael said: These Muslims were plotting to enter the U.S. Army base in Fort Dix, New Jersey and murder as many soldiers as they could. Mohamad Shnewer (the only American citizen among the
convicted men), was caught on tape saying, “They are the ones, we are going to put bullets in their heads, Allah willing.”

Except that they were never charged with this crime were they?

OzarkMichael said: Another Jihadist told an FBI informant late in 2006: “I’m gonna do it….It doesn’t matter to me, whether I get locked up, arrested, or get taken away, it doesn’t matter. Or I die, doesn’t matter, I’m doing it in the name of Allah.”

From your other link:

“The men say they didn’t seriously plan anything and they were manipulated by two paid FBI informants.”

Like I said, this follows the same entrapment plot that was used to extrap the Mami sx. Am FBI informant – usually a con man who has been offered a shorter sentence – is payed to act as the ring leader is a jihadist attack and suckers some poorly educated Muslim into agreeing with him and record it.

What about the Al-Qaeda recruiting video?  Dis we ever get to see it?


OzarkMichael said: After they were found guilty, the same Muslims also yelled “Allahu Akbar” in the courtroom. Fortunately they did not have rifles at the time.

Like I said.  All a Muslims need say is “Allahu Akbar” and he’s guilty.

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

She,

Join the crowd of the hanged, tortured and castigated!

Don’t forget—Egypt was definitely NOT Arab until the mid 7th century when the Arabs invaded and conquered Egypt, just like the Romans and Greeks before them.

You’ll notice that this thread is about the Rules not just applying to one people, yet the Shingos and FolkTruthers and Ed Harges and Wadosys et al. all want them to apply solely to Israel and Israel alone…nobody else.

They want the Jews to emigrate from Israel and go….somewhere, but where would that be?  The Jews would then be invaders and, of course, the Shingos and FolkTruthers and Ed Harges and Wadosys et al. would then demand the Jews move AGAIN—to where? And again and again unless to Antarctica? Even the Australian desert is peopled by the Pintubis. Where would 5 millions go? There is ONLY ONE ANSWER that satisfies the Shingos and FolkTruthers and Ed Harges and Wadosys et al.  OK—maybe not Shingo—He’s down with a 2 state solution.  But I sure know Wadosy is OK with that only one answer….

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By Night-Gaunt, March 15, 2009 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

Shenonemous, by now you should know that we read from the bottom (oldest) to the top(newest) so please load your segments that way instead of backwards. That is 1 first then 2 et cetera. Thank you.

Remember that the more violence either or both sides use the more violence will be created. Only water will put out fires, not more fire.

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By Shenonymous, March 15, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

No, Leefeller, it is called Wondering Palestinian, but don’t go to Lowes for it.  You have to go to a gardening place called the UN, not related to the Great UNyun mind you.  Oh my, I am sure to get bashed for that!  Levity, not gravity.  Except, and this is beginning to sound like a Jon Stewart skit, except I do not think they levitate.

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By Leefeller, March 15, 2009 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

with all this talk of wandering peoples, one could ask this, do the Palestinians have a plant named after them, called the wandering Palestinian?

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By Shenonymous, March 15, 2009 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

1 of 2
Shenonymous was executed several times on this forum, and it is indubitable that She will be hanged, shot, knifed in the back again, but like a xombie lives on to terrorize the halls of TD with facts, as interpreted and as I will Her to and with music, which no one save one, ever appreciates. Far as I am concerned, anyone who does not appreciate good music and doesn’t comment on my concerts here, is a malcontent in their soul. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Now, wait a minute Shingo, in your last post to ITW, you demanded that ITW give you evidence in the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions or any article of international law that says it is legitimate to displace an existing population, but you say it is a fact yet provide no evidence the Palestinians have been on the Sinai for 4 or 5 thousand of years.

The problem with that is that even it were true, and it isn’t, but if it were, they were those nomadic Semitic Arabs and they would have had lots of company roaming along side the nomadic Semitic Jews. You say they were not Arabs who came from Saudi Arabia, but Shingo, they did not fall out of Allah’s sky or an alien spaceship either!  So where do you say they did come from?  You failed to say. They did not rise up out of the dirt either, so don’t use that as a place of origin. I will tell you from whence they came. Since the Romans gave the name Palestine from the name of the coastal region people (the sea people) the Philistines to the region so the name of the Arabs in that area at that time were called Palestinians by everyone else, and over time the people assumed the name. Before that they were just roaming Bedouin Arab nomads on the Arabian Peninsula.

Question:  Why, when the Jews in the land called Israel today, and when they were under the control of the Arab Islamic marauder in 636 AD, was not a Palestinian State or Country created then?  We know the Egyptians have been in existence for eons, thousands of years, but they do not consider themselves a Arabs. If they consider themselves Arabs today it was due to the British colonialization and due subsequent cultural assimilation. We also know that Turkey has been around for as long as Egypt, even longer when the Assyrians and Babylonians are taken into account. Jordan’s history goes back to the Kingdom of Petra but when conquered became part of the Ottoman Empire. Now Syria was named comes from the Greek Syrioi because their heritage is from Assyria (and then from the Akkadian ‘Assur’)  the Greeks applied the name to all the Assyrian people. And we know how long those people were in the neighborhood. A larger section of the Middle East was divided into provinces by the Romans and hence Syria was born as well as Judaea which was renamed by the Romans as Palestina in 135 AD. Therefore, the ‘Palestinian’ movement did not even happen until 1964. Who has controlled the Middle East over the course of history? Just about everyone, except the United States, Canada, Mexico, South American countries, Just about everyone in the Middle Eastern sector of the world: Egyptians, Turks, Jews, Romans, Arabs, Persians, Europeans, etc.

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By Shenonymous, March 15, 2009 at 8:59 am Link to this comment

2 of 2
The thing is that there are facts and facts and facts. Whoever wants to can interpret facts to suit their needs and that is why facts are not knowledge nor truth. Knowledge and truth are what is the reality of the way facts are used.  And people who use facts use them for their own purposes.  And that is a fact.

There was never an ancient Palestine. Of all the rulers, Hebrew, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks, none cared to establish a nation except the Jews.

The Ottoman Turks neglected the region until they were summarily evicted during WWI and the British stepped in. Through out history there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel.

There has never been an established Palestinian government. Indeed, the word Palestine was first used by the Romans and is not even an Arab word.

I cannot tell you how they fit into history since there is none. Islam itself is a relatively new and Abrahamic religion, meaning Islam derives from the same stem as the Jews and later the Christians. They are Arabs it is as simple as that. They have no particular connection to the land of Israel other than a few nomad tribes who drifted through and decided to stay. Most settled in Israel when the Jews began to clean up the land and it began to prosper again ini the late 1800s. The Palestinians are descended from the Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians, etc.

A final repeat:  The Arabs migrated into the land of Israel during the Babylonian Exile and again after the Roman Period, but they never established a nation or had a ‘national identity’ utnil they settled in Palestine, and there was never a written record of the Palestinians as ever having been a nation prior to the re-establishment of the Jewish State of Israel. Their only national identity is vis-a-vis that of the Jewish State since Palestine was partitioned by the U.N. into two states, that exactly is how they their got their present day identity.

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By OzarkMichael, March 15, 2009 at 8:12 am Link to this comment

I continue my review of the UN Resolution “Defamation of Religions”.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1314451&ct=6831061

regrets the laws or administrative measures specifically designed to control and monitor Muslim minorities, thereby stigmatizing them and legitimizing the discrimination they experience;

This obviously refers to the FBI. As Shingo said, “some FBI informer conning poorly educated Muslim men into saying the word Jihad into a microphone.”

7. Expresses deep concern in this respect that Islam is frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism…

I think of what Shingo said, “Muslims shouting Allahu Akbar!!  What more proof does one need of a terrorist attack?”

Who is frequently and wrongly associating Islam with terrorism? The man who turned that tape in. The jury in the Fort Dix case. The FBI informant. They are the criminals now.

And you Shenonymous. Do you feel the noose tightening?

8. Deplores the use of the print, audio-visual and electronic media, including the Internet, and any other means to incite… discrimination towards any religion, as well as targeting of religious symbols and venerated persons;

Mohammed and Islam is not to be criticized anywhere, including the Internet. A place like Truthdig is looking like a dangerous place for Shenonymous and I. Read the serious charges against her from cyrena, Fadel and Sodium. All that is needed is a criminal code to be in place.

But that is morbid. How about some music from the Boss?

“Baby this town rips the bones from your back
It’s a death trap, it’s a suicide rap
We gotta get out while we’re young
Because tramps like us, baby we were born to run”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6se90rFN1qI&feature=related

11. ...urges all States ... to deny impunity for those who commit such acts…

13. Underscores the need to combat defamation of religions, and incitement to religious hatred in general, by strategizing and harmonizing actions at the local, national, regional and international levels…

There will be a strategic effort, from the local police officer to the Interpol.

A little more music so we can end on a positive note:

“The highway’s jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive
Everybody’s out on the run tonight
but there’s no place left to hide”

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By Inherit The Wind, March 15, 2009 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

Shingo:

Sounds you need to recognize that YOUR beef is with the UN, not Israel.

Love the continued fantasy fairytale that Arabs were DRIVEN OUT of Israel by Jews, when, in fact, they were BEGGED to stay but the Arab League and the Mufti told them they’d be shot as traitors BY ARABS if they stayed.

That’s combined with the fantasy that the 900,000 Jews displaced from the Arab nations in response were really driven out by fellow Jews, not the ‘benevolent’ Arab states in which they lived.

The creation of Israel was not an invasion.  Saddam Hussein going into Kuwait was an invasion, a MILITARY invasion.  There is no similarity and they cannot be judged by the same standards—you don’t judge a steak the same way you judge a glass of wine. It’s just that obvious.

As for the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, you imply that Israel’s purpose and intent was to DESTROY the financial and industrial strength of the Lebanese economy.  This is PATENTLY FALSE and YOU KNOW IT!  Lebanon was, like Belgium, a battle-ground USED BY OUTSIDE FORCES TO ATTACK ISRAEL!  Lebanon was the staging area used by Syria as a surrogate against Israel—but it wasn’t the Lebanese.

And it has ALWAYS been in Israel’s interest to have a proper, decent DEMOCRATIC state next door, and worked for it….But the DULY ELECTED leaders kept getting assassinated by Syrian-backed forces.  Forgot that little detail?

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By OzarkMichael, March 15, 2009 at 6:32 am Link to this comment

Shingo quotes the article : “The alleged Fort Dix plot came to light when two men gave an 8 mm videotape to a clerk at a Circuit City store in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, and asked him to convert it to DVD format...and Shingo comments… So no plans were actually revealed.  No attack, just a tape of a couple of Muslims at a shooting range shouting “Allahu Akbar”.

The tape was only how the plot was first stumbled upon. That is what ‘came to light’ means. 

The clerk, Brian Morgenstern, was alarmed when he saw the tape, and asked a coworker: “Dude, I just saw some really weird s—-. I don’t know what to do. Should I call someone, or is that being racist?”

He didnt want to turn it in. In fact he didnt do so for days.

That perfectly describes how circumspect most Americans are about assuming anything bad about other cultures. Twelve such American citizens spent days carefully deliberating the evidence before they found the defendants guilty.

For Shingo to say “The case was a joke of course” and to say that these Muslim men were “conned into saying the word Jihad into a microphone” is a prejudice in itself.

The man who eventually turned the tape in, who hesitated over it, who didnt want to do anything out of a racist motivation… of course now he has to live with being called racist thanks to people like Shingo.

Shingo said, Muslims shouting Allahu Akbar!!  What more proof does one need of a terrorist attack?

These Muslims were plotting to enter the U.S. Army base in Fort Dix, New Jersey and murder as many soldiers as they could. Mohamad Shnewer (the only American citizen among the convicted men), was caught on tape saying, “They are the ones, we are going to put bullets in their heads, Allah willing.”

They had done reconnaissance of Fort Dix. They knew where it was and how to attack it.

Another Jihadist told an FBI informant late in 2006: “I’m gonna do it….It doesn’t matter to me, whether I get locked up, arrested, or get taken away, it doesn’t matter. Or I die, doesn’t matter, I’m doing it in the name of Allah.”

Here is an interesting fact about how the Jihadists acted after they got caught. Authorities revealed in December 2007 that one of the imprisoned defendants expressed regret over the Fort Dix plot—that “we weren’t able to finish”—and even gave another prisoner an Al-Qaeda recruiting video.

Shingo comments… So no plans were actually revealed.  No attack, just a tape of a couple of Muslims at a shooting range shouting “Allahu Akbar”.

After they were found guilty, the same Muslims also yelled “Allahu Akbar” in the courtroom. Fortunately they did not have rifles at the time.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpU78Fwu6-swpC3MuWomEA9WYcCQD96O0GMG0

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Find me a where in the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions or any article of international law that says it is legitimate to displace an existing population.  The assertion that the Palestinians have been there for thousands of years is a fact.  They were not Arabs who came from Saudi Arabia. Their villages, like Jericho, date back 4 or 5 millenia. 

The Geneva Conventions and the Nuremberg principals were a significant talking point, because they market the first time an international consensus was reached on what was legitmate behavior and otherwise

The argument that such displacement and conquest has taken place previously is a non sequitir. Why didn’t we say to Saddam, go ahead and take Kuwait?  Why did we go to the aid of the East Timorese?  The intenatinl community formed the UN and unanimously agreed that such acts of aggression and conquest were no loner acceptable or legitimate.

The creation of Israel by the UN was an delcareto by the UN, but this did not onclude the enthic clasing of the Arabs in 1948.  Yes, those Arabs were pushed out by arms, namely the by the Irgun and Stern Gang and co. 

“Meanwhile, in 60 years, the Israelis have built a modern Western technical society that NONE of their neighbors have. “

On the contrary.  Lebanon was set to become the Riviera of the Middle East until Israel invaded in 1982 and laid waste to it.

There is no question that the Israelis are extremely resourceful, brilliant and industrious, but that is besides the point isn’t it ITW? 

“Peace with Israel will bring prosperity to her neighbors.  Both sides need to see this.”

Amen to that. 

The sad thing is that if the region ot it’s act together, it would be an amazing place.  Israel being the intellectual and technological centre.  Lebanon and Jordan the tourist areas.  Think of the wealth Israel could generate with it’s exports to the Arab world.

What a waste hey?

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By Shenonymous, March 14, 2009 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, whatever was the state of land ownership in 1948, it became the designated homeland of Israel and the United States and the Soviet Union immediately recognized this new country.  Czechoslovakia supplied new Jewish country with weaponry, while the Arabs were supported by Britain. 

Politics makes strange partner changing as the decades go by. Who once were partners in the attempt to eradicate Israel in 1947, Britain and the Arab League, changed to be enemies in the 20th and 21st centuries.  The history of the State of Israel is riveting, particularly the civil war and ensuing war with Palestinian Arabs. 

The mandate that ruled the land called Palestine was a consequence of who were the winners of WWI and the treaty between the Ottoman Empire and the Allies that gave absolute control to Britain by the then world organization known as the League of Nations.  Such are the ramifications and fruits of war.  Lands change ownership.  Ownership is transferred from one country to another either by out and out victory, or by post war legal instruments. Treaties and conventions give the authority and the authorities are established by covenants or charters which grant authorities and spell out rights.  How decisions are arrived at to partition lands in a particular way is complex.  Some treaties such as the Treaty of Sèvres, the Treaty of Versailles, the Treaty of Lausanne become crucial historical references that help one to understand how things get to be the way they are in 2009.  It is a debatable issue who owns the land called Israel. 

Enforcing the terms of mandates falls to either a legal system or an armed police force.  Britain maintained absolute rule over Palestine for 28 years up to 1948. 

There is an incredible amount of facts and knowledges and histories of intrigues, and hidden agendas and it is an elephantine quantity to assimilate and chew on to be able to come to any rational assessment of what is now the situation in the Middle East.

I would say most Americans know little to nothing about what and why the Middle East is in the muddle it is.  I’d say they were too busy with getting on with their own lives that it has no priority.  But that is a bit of a digression.

Exactly why the Palestine region was made a state of Israel is intricate.  Britain, France, and Italy rejected the first drafts of the mandate.  The Allies felt that whatever was going to be done for the Jews was going to be at its core built entirely on sentimental grounds.  After much haggling, Lord Balfour’s proposal was accepted:
Whereas recognition has thereby [i.e. by the Treaty of Sèvres] been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine, and to the [sentimental] grounds for reconstituting their National Home in that country ... 

That was 1917.  Through immediate and constant conflict with the Arab Palestinians, it would take another 31 years for the state of Israel to be created, but there is a mammoth amount of negotiated history with many nations involved that shows a great part of why Jews from the Holocaust became Israeli Zionists at the end of WWII.

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

The Fort Dix six had nothing to do with the plot to blow up the Sears tower, that was the Miami six.  The impoverished guys who were offered $50,000 in return for agreeing to join a jihad.

I know, it’s easy to get confused with all these bogus cases - there’ve been so many. 

The Fort Dix plot was a different case involving a so called conspiracy to kill soldiers at Fort Dix.  The case was a joke of course.

From your own link:

“The defendants were acquitted of attempted murder charges but face life in prison. “

So what was the case about? Again from the link:

“The alleged Fort Dix plot came to light when two men gave an 8 mm videotape to a clerk at a Circuit City store in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, and asked him to convert it to DVD format.

Authorities said the tape showed 10 young men shooting at a practice range and shouting in Arabic, “Allahu Akbar,” or “God is great.”“

So no plans were actually revealed.  No attack, just a tape of a couple of Muslims at a shooting range shouting “Allahu Akbar”.

Muslims shouting Allahu Akbar!!  What more proof does one need of a terrorist attack?

The lawyer summed it up.  The population had been whipped up into a state of perpetual fear where all Muslims were guilty in the eye of the public.  Have we all forgotten all those color coded warnings which the DOH later admitted were based of no evidence?

“It’s a certain time in our history where these certain types of allegations are very troublesome, and it’s very difficult,” he said. “It’s disappointing when it doesn’t come out the way you think it should.”

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By Inherit The Wind, March 14, 2009 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Shingo:
Thievery?  Find me a nation that didn’t displace somebody—your assertion that the Palestinians have been there for thousands of years is simply false.

Egypt wasn’t Arab until the Arab invasion of the 7th Century.  I guess they are thieves, too, right?  And the Turks conquered and ruled the WHOLE area for centuries—and the Turks came from central Asia to take over Asia Minor and Constantinople.  Constantinople fell in 1453.  I guess that makes the Turks thieves too.

Alexander the Great invaded India and encouraged his men to intermarry, changing the racial makeup forever (not quite so violent as Bashir encouraging RAPE to achieve the same end in Darfur).

Today, Western Poland sits on land where Germans were ethnically cleansed in 1945 and 1946—and Russians live on land e-c’d of Poles at the same time.

The Northern Ireland problem dates back 400 years to the conquest by Britain and re-settlement in Ulster of vast numbers of Protestant Scotsmen—today’s Orange Loyalists.

But Israel was not a conquest, a pushing out by arms, unlike all those others.  Israel was created by a majority vote of the United Nations, peacefully.  Was it legal under international law?  I cannot say—but it was NOT a conquest.

Meanwhile, in 60 years, the Israelis have built a modern Western technical society that NONE of their neighbors have. Communications, medicine and other fields have many leaders in Israel.  Even the lowly robotic pool cleaner—the “Aquabot” and its competitors,  that looks like a Monopoly house on caterpillar treads, is an Israeli invention. (And don’t I know it with the troubles I had with one!)

Peace with Israel will bring prosperity to her neighbors.  Both sides need to see this.

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By OzarkMichael, March 14, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

The Fort Dix case, which Shingo dismissed with this sentence, These were all cases built around some FBI informer conning poorly educated Muslim men into saying the word Jihad into a microphone was concluded with this statement by the 12 jurors:

“For the 12 of us involved in these deliberations, this has been one of the most difficult things we’ve ever had to do,” the jury said in a written statement given to the news media, according to CNN Radio affiliate KYW. “We have not reached our conclusions lightly. The burden imposed on us has been heavy but we are confident that our verdict has been reached fairly and impartially.”

Shingo also made this misleading statement, The Fort Dix six (who were plotting to blow up the Sears tower, even though they didn’t know where it was).

That misleads the reader into thinking the case was about the Sears Tower.

The jury found them guilty of conspiring to kill soldiers at Fort Dix, New Jersey.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/22/fortdix.case/index.html

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

There is no ambiguity about thievery.  Even in 1048, when Israel was created by the UN,  Israeli Jews owned barely 7% of the land, Arabs 50%.  The Zionist ideologues saw this as roadblock to creating a Jewish state.  Most of the Arabs were not prepared to sell their land, so Israel created a rationale for seizing it using eminent domain.  Once the Arabs were driven out of Israel, eminent domain was used to seize the land.  It was also argued that absente landlords (ie. those that had been driven out of Israel) had forfeited their land to Israel.

It is no overstatement that the Palestinians have been the inhabitants of the land called Israel for thousand[s] of years.  The notion that the Arabs were recent arrivals to Palestine is a Zionist canard that is not taken seriously by scholars.

No Israeli scholar believes in the myth of the diaspora. Only a small percentage of Israeli Jews have any ancestral lineage to the land and even those are given second class status to the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel. 

The UN and the international community non partisan consensus is that the land was stolen, so with all due respects, your own perspective is out of the mainstream. 

Had Israel not established settlements in Gaza or West Bank, this would be a moot argument.

It is hard to say what specifically catapulted Netenyahu into office. Was it the rocket attacks or was it the Israeli siege on Gaza?  What usually happens in times of war is that the public tend to move to the right. Netenyahu had a strong lead and Livni closed the gap prior to the elections.

I am not ridiculing anything, except OM’s insistence that the only outcome from a peace settlement will be more violence.  History has shown that political settlements reduce violence not increase it. It’s logical.  OM does not want a political settlement because he does not want to see the creation of a Palestinian state, hence his right wing taunts about appeasement.

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By Shenonymous, March 14, 2009 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

Thievery is a matter of perspective when two factions argue over the same piece of meat.  It is overstating that the Palestinians have been the inhabitants of the land called Israel for thousand[s] of years.  Israel can claim they have been there since prehistoric times and there are archaeological evidence that they have, unearthed by non-Jewish archaeologists.  So it really is a moot point who was there first.  We ought not to cover that ground again, but I am willing if need be.  I disagree that the land was “stolen.”  That is an argument, but it is partisan.  I agree that Israel ought not to have made settlements in Gaza or West Bank.  I agree there is something suspicious about that but not sure what can be done except warring or negotiation.  I am not arguing that Palestinians refused to define their borders, I will here provide you, which I already did, the documentation. 

You know Shingo, you are a bit of a prig to keep accusing me of things that are published.  If you don’t like what that is, kindly argue against the documentation, not me.  I am only presenting what was found.  We shall have to travel back in time to see what exactly was what in 1967.  I agree that Sharon was a huge impediment to possible peace in 1993.  Let us hope that 16 years later things can get better, but I highly doubt it with Netanyahu.  It is really too bad that the Hamas attacks, as puny as they are called, catapulted him into office, because had Hamas not done that it is quite possible the moderate faction in Israel, Livni’s group, would have won hands down.  I am convinced if that latest war had not happened, Netanyahu would not be in the potentially antithetical position of a peace agreement. 

Now threats are mainly venting anger, but occasionally they are carried out.  It is the exception to which attention must be paid or there will be untold horror committed.  In this era of terrorism it is the ultimate fool who doesn’t pay heed to what is potential devastation.  Ridicule it all you want, Shingo, it doesn’t mean those who do give it due regard are paranoid.  There is huge frightful history about the most deadful acts of fanatical terrorists.

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

“Here is a Reuters report about a terrorist:”

There have been so many farcial cases against so called terrorist rings that the public has pretty much lost interest in them.

i was in Canada when the students from Ontario were busted for allegedly plotting to order tons and tons of amonium nitrate to blow up parliament.  That story fell apart, so the narrative was changed to say that the accused were plotting to behead the Canadian PM, Steven Harper.  Even Harper didn’t take it seriosly.

Here in the US we’ve had a comedy or such arrests. 

The plot to blow up the Holland Tunnel.
The plot to blow up the bridge in New Jersey (using a blow torch)
The plot up to blow the library in LA.
The Miami 7.
The Fort Dix six (who were potting to blow up the Sears tower, even though they didn’t know where it was).

These were all bases built around some FBI informer conning poorly educated Muslim men into saying the word Jihad into a microphone.

That’s just off the top of my head.

In the UK:

The fake plot to blow up the Stadium.
The fake plot to blow up airplanes.
And the fake plot to blow up planes using liquid explosives.

As for the latest Canadian verdict, they held this guy for 5 years to come up with a case towards him.  How pathetic!

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You know as well as anyone that peace does not happen over night, It happens in stages.  It usually always begins with a ceasefire, a long one.  Peace cannot happen without one correct?  What follows is negotiations and benchmarks towards reconciliation. 

The longer the ceasefire, the more likelihood there will be of a cessation in hostilities and a moderation of hostile attitudes ie.. sustainable ‘peace’.  The recent attacks in Northern Ireland by militants is an example of how in spite of their violence, the militant groups have ceased to be effective.  Yes, it was regrettable, but both governments have issued statements that this event will not derail the peace. More importantly, the majority of the public have made it clear they have no stomach for a return to violence.

I agree that Hamas does not have any religious authority to the land called Israel.  Hamas entered the picture late into the conflict and let’s remember that they were able to do so with the invitation of Israel.  Israel didn’t want a political settlement with the PLO, so opted to poison the well in Gaza.

Regardless of Hama’s religious beliefs the conflict is and has always been a purely territorial dispute.  The religious elements have been a side show.  Israel’s claim nt eh state is not based on what the Bible says, or the Torah, but on the basis that Jews need and deserve a safe haven from further prosecution.  The Palestinians claim si that Palestine has been their home for thousand of years.

The designation, “territories of undetermined permanent status” is completely misleading, because it omits the fact that the territories were stolen, that they are being illegally occupied and that Israel has an official policy of building and expanding settlements there.  Israel’s own legal counsel said in 1967,the building settlements in the captured territories would be a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention.

Then the results of the 1967 Six-Day War, left Israel, not Egypt in control of the Gaza Strip. Palestinians who had been ethnically cleansed from Israel in 1948, had already been living there. How you could argue that it is the Palestinians who are refusing to define their borders is laughable.  It is Israel that refuses, not the Palestinians, who refuse to do so.  The Palestinain authority has made it clear that they want Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.  There’s no ambiguity about that.

The 1993 agreement was indeed the first real sign of progress in over 30 years.  Yo might recall that the talks originally broke down at Camp David. Clinton recognized that the offer to the Palestinians was completely inadequate, so he recommended some parameters and both sides accepted them in principal.  They then held further discussions Taba, where both leaders stated that with more time, they would have reached an agreement.  Unfortunately, Barak called an end to the meetings early because of the impending Israeli elections.  Sharon won, declared he would suspend the peace process in formaldehyde and the rest in how history.

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By OzarkMichael, March 14, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

I have news. The Pakistan delegation to the UN handed out their “Defamation of Religions” resolution. It is a long document. Here are some excerpts.

Stressing that defamation of religions is a serious affront to human dignity leading to restriction on the freedom of religion of their adherents and incitement to religious hatred and violence,

translation: Criticizing Islam is a serious affront to human dignity.  How it does this I dont know, but criticizing Islam restricts the freedom of Muslims and will somehow incite everyone who listens to the criticism of Islam into a frenzy of religious hatred and violence.

Noting with concern that defamation of religions, and incitement to religious hatred in general, could lead to social disharmony and violations of human rights, and alarmed at the inaction of some States to combat this burgeoning trend and the resulting discriminatory practices against adherents of certain religions and in this context stressing the need to effectively combat defamation of all religions and incitement to religious hatred in general and against Islam and Muslims in particular

In case you are wondering, none of this applies whatsoever to the Islamic countries. the sponsor(Pakistan) is a place where Christians are routinely bullied and killed if they get uppity. But Pakistan is not looking to improve themselves with this Resolution.

The “inaction of some states” refers especially to the United States of America. Goodness knows that Holland is getting in line. England is making an effort. But the USA is the bad boy here.


Expresses deep concern at the negative stereotyping and defamation of religions and manifestations of intolerance and discrimination in matters of religion or belief, still evident in the world, which have led to intolerance against the followers of these religions;

Criticism of Islam is negative stereotyping, it leads to intolerance against Muslims.

Expresses deep concern at the continued serious instances of deliberate stereotyping of religions, their adherents and sacred persons in the media, as well as programmes and agendas pursued by extremist organizations and groups aimed at creating and perpetuating stereotypes about certain religions, in particular when condoned by Governments,

The “sacred person” is Mohammed. These “instances are serious and deliberate”, which means they are crimes committed intentionally. They really must be punished.

“Agendas pursued by extremist organizations” does not mean Al Qaeda. It means people like me. And then we finish with the fact that my words are “condoned by Governments” ie, allowed by the USA Free Speech clause. Therefore the USA is implicitly a partner in my criminality.

More later…..

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By Shingo, March 14, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

As I’ve said many times before, you usually make a great deal of sense and more importantly, you also happen to be impeccably honest about your own position on the subject.

Hats off to you.

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By OzarkMichael, March 14, 2009 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller asks: No lampooning the great religions, does this mean they can preach their wares unhindered, without question?

One thing that i have not explained is that the “Defamation of Religions” is meant to work one way. For example, in Islamic countries this rule has the effect of preventing Christians from preaching.  Christian preaching defames Islam because it denies the primacy of Mohammed and the Quran.

I can understand why Progressives(Leefeller I am not talking about you) would welcome the idea of preventing Christians from preaching, but I use it to illustrate that in Islam there are special rules which Christians must live by. These rules are part of Sharia. Sharia assures the primacy of Mohammed and Quran in a society.

Sometimes these rules are not enforced. Sometimes they are forgotten. In our lifetime Islam is entering a Reformation of sorts and the Sharia is making quite a comeback.

Where this will end up is a serious question. Unfortunately, almost nobody understands the Reformation process, everyone has forgotten that the Christian Reformation had much more than just religious results. Political alleigences are shaken and chaos can result. Afterward there are important long term societal results. Those results hinge on the sacred texts.

We are lulled into thinking its all about poverty and lack of education. We are lulled into thinking its all about religion in a general way, since religions supposedly are all the same and behave the same way and all have their terrorists, etc etc.  You heard it here several times. The purpose of this is deflect questions about Islam.

Even if someone pushes past the deflections and asks the questions, even if that person caught a glimmer of the nature of the Reformation within Islam, there is no scholarship to turn to. Edward Said saw to that.

Unable to name things for what they are, or to even make some sort of working definition for any aspect of it, there is no way to communicate with others. 

This is what the “Defamation of Religion” strives for. And has already achieved with the help of Progressives in Europe and America. Yes, the idea that Christians can preach unhindered has seemed odious to Progressives, but it is the forgotten historical basis of Western freedom of speech.

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By OzarkMichael, March 14, 2009 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

Here is a Reuters report about a terrorist:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090312/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_terror_sentence

Now read it again. Look for clues as to motive, ideology, or explanation of any kind. Nothing.

The most you will be told about the guy is the fact that he is a software engineer.  I wonder what reason he had for terrorism? Not lack of education. Poverty? I guess we dont deserve to know.

The “Defamation of Religions” resolution is having a chilling effect on American media. We do not call things by their proper name.

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By Shenonymous, March 14, 2009 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

1.
Shingo, pardon me but did you say peace and ceasefire are praaaaactically the same thing?  I am truly sorry, but I couldn’t stop myself from laughing.  Are you seriously saying that peace is as tenuous as a ceasefire or a ceasefire is as strong as a peace [agreement
?  Since a ceasefire carries with it the implication of a temporary condition, it doesn’t seem to have as much value as a negotiated peace.  There could be a ceasefire for an hour, or a day, a month, or it could slip over into a sustainable ‘peace’ if no firing of weapons ever happens again, but until that time, it is provisional.  The peace, for instance, in Ireland, was never accepted by the so-called ‘real’ IRA and they shot and killed a British soldier just the other day, as if they could justify killing a man who now cannot live out his life, but they can continue to live.  So is there a ‘peace’ or not?  It is not a peace until a peace is agreed to that no further armaments will be fired off.  Peace is an argued, hardwired formal binding agreement, a more perpetual, enduring concord, a pledge.  A cease fire is only when the sides cease to fire weapons and the slightest provocation can set hostilities in motion again.

Now I don’t believe I ever said I was for any particular solution.  I don’t know what the best solution would be.  I have expressed my doubts that a lasting peace is ever possible unless the Palestinians have their own country.  That would take the legs away from all who attack Israel. 

It is my belief that there is no divine right to land by anyone, neither Israel nor Arabs.  The right to land is historic and through negotiation. By historic, I mean what coherent body of people historically lived on the land.  There was an agreement that the Palestinians could live and flourish in the two “territories” Gaza and West Bank, and live in the city of Jerusalem. 

Seems like a recap is in order.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/mideast.asp is a site that gives a list of documents relevant to the Middle East 1916-2001.  These are the legal documents that have driven the actions in that part of the world.

The following site explains Yale Law School’s The Avalon Project.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/about/purpose.asp

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Is a site that provides the Hamas Covenant of 1988, also called The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement, 18 August 1988 In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah.

Now before that covenant was made, Hamas did not have any religious authority to the land called Israel.  This is a very revealing document, inasmuch as it has been vociferously claimed that the conflict was without religious basis and me and my character was impugned and excoriated by the most vile of accusations for suggesting that the conflict over Gaza was between two religious-based factions. 

On the other hand, Israel claims the Bible as their final authority and starting point for their ownership of the land called Israel.  And they claim the (Jewish National Fund’s), JNF’s charter has some specific intentions of the land.

So we do have here a war between competing gods.

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