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Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People

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Posted on Feb 14, 2009
Sachsenhausen
AP photo / Sven Kaestner

Visitors to Oranienburg, Germany, pass the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp last month. The words on the gate translate loosely as “Labor liberates.” 

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally published in The Independent.

The third and very final part of the “normality” of war. I have just finished reading Lyn Smith’s Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. I admit to a personal interest. Lyn is a friend of mine for whom I have been recording my memories of Middle East wars for the Imperial War Museum. Nothing I have ever seen can equal this, however, and I can give only one example from the terrifying, outrageously brave and moving book this is.

It is the testimony of Leon Greenman, a British Jewish inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau who arrived at the extermination camp with his wife and child. It speaks for itself. All other passages pale beside it:

“We were bullied out of the train and stood about waiting. It must have been about half past two in the morning. It was dark, a blue light was shining on the platform. We saw a few SS men walking up and down. They separated the men from the women. So I stood right in front of the men and I could see my wife there with the child in her arms. She threw me a kiss and she showed the baby ... Then one of the prisoners in a striped uniform commanded us to follow him. Well, we turned to the left and walked a little way for two or three minutes. A truck arrived, stopped near us and on the truck were all the women, children, babies and in the centre my wife and child standing up. They stood up to the light as if it was meant to be like that – so that I could recognise them. A picture I’ll never forget. All these were supposed to have gone to the bathroom to have a bath, to eat and to live. Instead they had to undress and go into the gas chambers, and two hours later those people were ashes, including my wife and child.”

I recalled this searing passage this week when I received a letter from a reader, taking me to task for my “constant downplaying of the suffering of the Palestinians on the grounds that their deaths and suffering are minimal when compared with that of the Second World War”. Now, I should say at once that this is a bit unfair. I was especially taking exception to a Palestinian blog now going the rounds which shows a queue of Palestinian women at one of Israel’s outrageous roadblocks and a (slightly) cropped picture of the Auschwitz selection ramp, the same platform upon which Leon Greenman was separated from his young wife and child more than 60 years ago. The picture of the Palestinian women is based on a lie; they are not queuing to be exterminated. Racist, inhumane and sometimes deadly – Palestinian women have died at these infernal checkpoints – but they are not queuing to be murdered.

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Yet our reader does have a point. The Second World War, she says, “does put it in a category apart ... but surely if one is caught up in any war and sees one’s loved ones killed or maimed, one’s home destroyed ... then that must be the greatest cataclysm in one’s life. The fact that a hundred others, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million are suffering likewise is immaterial to the individual’s suffering. The Second World War lasted six years. The Palestinian suffering has lasted over sixty…”

And yes, I’ll go along with this. If it’s an individual being deliberately killed, then this is no less terrible than any other individual, albeit that this second person may be one of six million others. The point, of course, is the centrality of the Holocaust and – Israel’s constant refrain – its exclusivity. Actually, the Armenian Holocaust – as I’ve said on umpteen occasions – is also central to all genocide studies. The same system of death marches, of camps, of primitive asphyxiation, even a few young German officers in Turkey watching the genocide in 1915 and then using the same methods on Jews in the occupied Soviet Union. Numbers matter.

But our reader has another point. “After all,” she says, “in the Second World War, after the entry of the US and USSR on our side, people could feel pretty positive about the outcome. But where is such hope for the Palestinians? And now to cap the horror the BBC is refusing to even show an appeal to help Gaza…” I’m not at all sure that W Churchill Esq would have entirely placed such confidence in the outcome of the Second World War – he was initially worried that the Americans would use up their firepower on the Japanese rather than against Hitler’s Germany.

I think, however, there is yet one more point. The rules of war – the Geneva Conventions and all the other post-Second World War laws – were meant to prevent another Holocaust. They were specifically designed to ensure that no one should ever again face the destruction of Mrs Greenman and her child. They were surely not made only for one race of people. And it is these rules which Israel so disgracefully flouted in Gaza. It’s a bit like the refrain from Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara and a whole host of other apparatchiks when the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Well, yes, they told us, it was bad – but not as bad as Saddam Hussein’s regime.

And of course, this argument leads to perdition. True, we were bad – but not as bad as the Baath party. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or Hitler’s Germany and the SS. Or the Ottoman Turks – though I noticed movingly that one of Lyn’s Jewish Holocaust survivors mentions the Armenians. No, the numbers game works both ways. A thousand Palestinians die in Gaza. But what if the figure were 10,000? Or 100,000? No, no, of course that wouldn’t happen. But the rules of war are made for all to obey. Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths. But a Palestinian woman and her child are as worthy of life as a Jewish woman and her child on the back of a lorry in Auschwitz.


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By Trithoverlies, April 10, 2009 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

I have heard the word Genocide bandied about quite a bit on this site and decided to look it up in the dictionary. Webster’s defines Genocide as the systemic killing of a whole people or nation. I find it so interesting to hear over and over that Israel is committing genocide when their are 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs in the Gaza strip and about 4 million on ther West Bank by these numbers I would say then Israel is doing a piss poor job of committing genocide. The invassion of Gaza netted 1400 Palestinian deaths, put this in comparison to 1 million Christians in Chad murdered in the 1990’s, and 350,000 Chiristians in Sudan during the last 4 years now thats genocide. The death of the innocent is always a bad thing, but when the guilty use the innocent as human shield as does Radical Fascist Islam whether it be Hezzbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, the Talhaban, the Wahabi’s, Shi’ite radicals, or Jemal Islam excetra… You are going to have many civilian casualties, but is that Israels, or Americas fault? Heavens NO it is the fault of the Radical Jihadist who care not how many innocent die as long as some Jews or Christians die as well. Words can not be deconstructed into Post Modernal definitions because the Post Modernity is a blatent lie against humanity and has no truth to it. According to Post Modernity there is no such thing as truth or lie. By post modernity I can point a gun at someone pull the trigger and kill them since according to my truth I had the right to do so just because they looked at me wrong. What Hog wash, there is a truth and Lie there is a right and a wrong and in war some times both sides have men who committ the unspeakable. But when it come down to the whole which side is worse the side that has a few soldiers and officers order that a wrong be committed, or a group that does wrong always such as Hamas, Hezzbollah,  the Talhaban, or Al Queda. So condemn the wrong if committed by a few Israelis but that doesn’t condone the 100% wrong done by the terrorist groups. Genocide is a terrible word but when used rightly inspires one to do the right thing over the wrong, when used wrong as it has been on this site all to often it is cheapened and degrades the true meaning desinsetizing poeple to the true evil that Radical Fascist Islam is, and what real genocide is.  Some of you accuse me of being an Islamaphobe but the truth is 70 to 80% of those practicing Islam don’t belong to the Radical Fascist Sects of Islam so please don’t try to say I hate all Muslims because that is simply not true after being very specific on who Radical Fascist Islam is. Still there will be those that write on this site and call me an Islamaphobe anyway.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2009 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Interesting thing is history is what it is.  Speculation about what ifs and reasons why are forced to be moot.  Humans only record history, they don’t really learn much from it, unfortunately.  Hindsight would be worthwhile if it wasn’t blinded by asses (as in hind end) more than most often. 

From Wilson’s April 2, 1917 message to Congress speech:  “The new policy has swept every restriction aside. Vessels of every kind, whatever their flag, their character, their cargo, their destination, their errand, have been ruthlessly sent to the bottom without warning and without thought of help or mercy for those on board, the vessels of friendly neutrals along with those of belligerents. Even hospital ships and ships carrying relief to the sorely bereaved and stricken people of Belgium, though the latter were provided with safe-conduct through the proscribed areas by the German Government itself and were distinguished by unmistakable marks of identity, have been sunk with the same reckless lack of compassion or of principle.” It would seem the torpedo-happy Germans were playing war for what it is, hideous and grotesque and seriously for keeps.  Then a bit later, he continued, “I am not now thinking of the loss of property involved, immense and serious as that is, but only of the wanton and wholesale destruction of the lives of noncombatants, men, women, and children, engaged in pursuits which have always, even in the darkest periods of modern history, been deemed innocent and legitimate. The facts bore this part of his speech out.  It is truth, not trooth.

But then the political rhetoric inexorably seeped in, ”Property can be paid for; the lives of peaceful and innocent people can not be. The present German submarine warfare against commerce is a warfare against mankind. It is a war against all nations. American ships have been sunk, American lives taken, in ways which it has stirred us very deeply to learn of, but the ships and people of other neutral and friendly nations have been sunk and overwhelmed in the waters in the same way. There has been no discrimination. The challenge is to all mankind.” However, then he gives that putatively noble justification and the grandly deceptive reason of why he will take the nation to war, ”Our motive will not be revenge or the victorious assertion of the physical might of the nation, but only the vindication of right, of human right, of which we are only a single champion.”  And that is a perfect example of trooth.

Senator Norris brought sobriety to the situation in his opposition to Wilson, he rang the clear bell of truth when he reminded Congress that the US had loaned many hundreds of millions of dollars to the Allies to finance the war. While it was legal and acceptable by international law, no doubt the enormous amount of money loaned to the Allies brought about a public sentiment in favor of becoming involved that would “make every bond worth a hundred cents on the dollar and making the payment of every debt certain and sure.”  So here it is conjectured that money was the motive.  Food for thought about WWI, what did the US gain? It was charged that Wall Street wanted the war.  Doing so would have turned a “tremendous and profitable coup in the history of American finance.” (John Kenneth Turner). That wouldn’t really be too hard to imagine, would it?  Could there have been a similar motive for Iraq?  Not only a coup for Wall Street but the armaments industry and that raw resource, oil.  Three coups with one blow!  That’s one for Leefeller humor.

News of the force of war and the whys of war are now more in the public domain than ever in history because of the speed of electronic transmission of information and changing the dynamics of war.  Nevertheless the public still has to piece together the truth from the trooths provided by the colluding media and politicians, and, we cannot forget, the corporate world.

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By Trithoverlies, April 9, 2009 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

So the sinking of American Merchant Ships is not a direct act of agression what do you call it than? Of course it was a direct act and it was ordered by the German High Command to include American Ships so to say that it was not like Peral Harbor is a little bit distorted since Pearl Habor was an American Military Base it actually was a legitamate target. Was the sinking of American ships the only reason for going to war?  No Wilson did attempt to keep us out of the War, but when American lives are lost do to the direct act of Agression (torpedoing American ships under American Registry)then we must act. Today we have a pirate nation (Somalia) pirating ships including one of our own the ship was recaptured by the crew, but the American Captian has been taken Hostage by some of the Pirates and are holding him in a life boat under Armed Gaurds. We had the chance in 1993 to take care of this problem but our president Bill Clinton blinked giving these Islamic Radical Pirates cause to believe we are nothing but a paper tiger.
Unfortunately we were lead by a Paper Tiger then just as we were lead by one in 1979, and even President Reagan blinked against the Islamic terrorist group Hezzbollah in 1983 after they killed 241 American Marines that were tasked with a peace keeping role.  This present war against America did not start on 9/11/2001, nor with the suicide boat bombing against the USS Cole, are the apartment building bombing in Saudi Arabia in 1997, this war was started in 624 A.D. against all western powers the Jihad has been going on ever since then. We in America had our first dealings with it in 1804 when Muslim Pirates boared an Americam Navy Frigate the USS Philidelphia, it crew was never returnned infact they were killed by the Muslim Pirates in Tripoly libya. So we have been provoked by Radical Islam yet nobody wants to believe they mean to truly destroy us. Well they do and they are not blowing smoke they do mean to destroy us so what should we do talk to them do they have the right to forcably convert or kill us of course not they hate the christians of today based on a terrible crime that was committed some 1100 years ago called the Crusades But the real truth is that the Islamic Crusade began soon after Mohamid’s death 634 A.D. and continues today.
      Trithoverlie/Truthoverlies.
        John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Not one American flgged Vessel was pirated during the last 7 years of the Bush Administration.

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By cyrena, April 9, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

By Night-Gaunt, April 9 at 2:02 pm #

“Please don’t drag that ‘trooth’ crap in here okay?


~*~*

I had to chuckle. wink I’ve made the same plea before. (to no avail)

Meantime, I’ve been in the very slow but steady operation of re-locating myself (again) and hopefully more permanently now. (the homeless experience is very enlightening, but at my age, it’s been a refresher course I didn’t really need.)

Be that as it may, I came across several books that I have managed to save from the typical outcomes of these sorts of experiences, if only because these are all crucial to my on-going work.

A few come to mind in terms of the most recent turn on this thread…

•  One is “War Law: Understanding International Law and Armed Conflict” Michael Byers

•  “The Costs of War, International Law, The UN, and World Order After Iraq” Richard A. Falk

•  “Terrorism and the Constitution: Sacrificing Civil Liberties in the Name of National Security”
          David Cole and James X. Dempsey

          A blurb/rec from the cover:

~“I encourage every person concerned about civil liberties in times of crisis to read this important book.” - Senator Edward M. Kennedy.

•  “International Law Frameworks” Second Edition
          David J. Bederman, Foundation Press

And finally,

•  “Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth”
          Joe Conason

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By OzarkMichael, April 9, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Hey Shenonymous,

That Jewish kid that you liked so well is the subject of a Truthdig article.

Please go to the link and read the whole thing, its very very good. Enjoy the sample from his next album, which is good, but his ennunciation has not improved with age!

Most of all, look at the wall behind him during the music and tell me what you see there.

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By OzarkMichael, April 9, 2009 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

From the Talk2Action website:

The Grand Inquisitor of Wisconsin
By Frank Cocozzelli Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 01:45:27 PM EST  

Bishop Robert Morlino of Wisconsin is one of a small group of Catholic Right leaders who is gradually igniting a firestorm that threatens to engulf all of American Catholicism.  By assuming the role of Grand Inquisitor he recklessly suppresses free expression in the name of quelling what he deems to be heresies.

The headline caught my eye. I wanted to see why they called the guy the Grand Inquisitor. I expected some torture or at least excommunications. I am already sort of angry at him for igniting forestorms, etc.

I felt I should send money to someone or do something to stop the bad guy.


Then I read the whole article, and the links.

Grand Inquisitor. Did he use the rack? No. Torture? No. How about at least a dozen excommunications? No, nothing like that. Instead The Grand Inquisitor wants to put pressure on catholic senators who are not pro-life. The Grand Inquisitor fired someone who had a job in his office because she was agitating for the ordination of women.

The phrases ‘firestorm that threatens to engulf all of Catholocism’ and ‘recklessly suppresses free expression’ is hype designed not to inform but to whip the reader into fear.

Grand Inquistor… good grief.  Why does the supposedly more intelligent and non-judgemental and multicultural Left have to use such extreme language to criticize the Right?

This happens in politics at Truthdig, and I begin to suspect it happens in religion at Talkt2Action.

In the end I am not impressed with the guy who wrote the article. Unfortunately he seems to be a regular contributor on talk2action.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2009 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

Yes, the trooth is crap, and crap is trooth.  And I’ll drag it wherever I think it appropriate.  Perception is everything, isn’t it?  Even if it is the trooth?

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By Night-Gaunt, April 9, 2009 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Please don’t drag that ‘trooth’ crap in here okay?

It was when the Germans declared unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic that gave Wilson the reason to help the British against Germany et al. We still could have stayed out of it and actually the war was near its end when the USA came in fresh and green. Both sides were exhausted. Many historians have discussed how it could or couldn’t have lead to a continuation of the world war (after 20 years) if we hadn’t.

For the preemptive attack on us by the Japanese. They were torn whether to attack us or Russian. They chose us. They failed in their mission since the four advanced aircraft carriers just happened to be out to sea when they attacked. They also didn’t carry out their third wave or bomb the fuel depots or occupy the island which could have caused considerably more problems for the USA. Imagine if that was the point, to bottle us up on the Pacific coast would have been far different history. Not in our particular set of time lines anyway.

There are very few reasons to go to war and they are constantly invoked to do so even if they aren’t applicable and they lead to the deaths of many times more of the ‘enemy’ whomever they may be. Causus belli is what the tyrant uses for it. Always, just look at Obama and what he is doing. Not any real difference is it? Af-Pak will be being used more and more now. As is 9/11/2001 now by our president as his causus belli.

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By Shenonymous, April 9, 2009 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

AN embellishment in search for the trooth? or truth?  The Germans sinking ships, yes, but Wilson’s using the sinking of the British ship flying a British flag, Lusitania by torpedo from a German U-boat and the deaths of 1,198 out of 1,959 passengers, which was the worst disaster of that type in history, and of those dead, 128 were Americans, may not have been in itself enough to send thousands of soldiers off to war.  Though no doubt it was a big reason. The sinking of the ship was in 1915 but America did not enter the war until 1917.  Sinking that ship was only one reason, but not THE reason.  It outraged the American public and up to then the US was neutral, officially, since the ship as a passenger ship and not known to be carrying any war materials. What are good reasons to go to war?  Why did America enter WWI?  Way….ell it was beginning to look as if Germany was going to be defeated (1918 the end of the war) and the US wanted part of the post war pie (often isn’t that is what winning sides do?).  The US was selling war materials to the allies, and that meant they could not remain neutral.  And the US was breaking international law by that.  A telegram called the Zimmermann Telegram intercepted by the manipulating Brits who transmitted to the US government and the sinking of seven American merchant ships became the straws that broke the American camel’s back.  While there was not complete support by the public, there was a growing anger by Americans at that time. There was also the war with Mexico going on and the Germans sent the notorious telegram saying that Mexico would have to fight the US since they were allies and they, the Germans had to take care of Europe.  Mexico was a financial ally as well with Germany and had the huge temptation of recapturing New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona if they were victorious. Belgium also became occupied by German forces and that added fuel to a more than smoking fire.  Also fearful Wilson was going to get some competition in being re-elected from Teddy Roosevelt who would bid for another term.  He felt immanently pressured.  The idea of “making the world safe for democracy” was given its nascence by Wilson. 

FDR WWII and Pearl Harbor was a little tiny bit different in that it was a direct act of aggression on the United States leaving 2.403 dead, and its planes and fleet destroyed and crippled.

Are you saying Night-Gaunt there is never any reason to go to war?

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By Night-Gaunt, April 9, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

I find it ironic that the Repubs hysterics over the name change which is what you would expect if you intended to carry on the operations but wanted it to be less visual. [Just partisianship.] Death and mass destruction under the deadly and obscene euphemism. The take over of our country is far from over by the corporate theocrats as the recently ruling on privacy by the Obama admin protected the gov’ts ‘right’ to spy on us using A.T.& T. et al. It is still legal as are whatever they have done in the past and are doing now. Legal in that they are the ones making the rules. To quote Darth Sidious from Phantom Menace; “I will make it legal.” (Concerning the blockade and invasion and occupation of Naboo.)

George Lucas understood how a kindly acting avuncular gentleman could be hiding a hard, vicious power mad Sith Master.

Remember both Wilson and FDR said we wouldn’t get into war we weren’t a part of. The Germans sinking our ships gave Wilson the excuse to join the war as did the Japanese in their pre-emptive attack to keep the USA out of their Pacific sphere of influence sealed their doom.

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By Leefeller, April 9, 2009 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

Yes, ‘Overseas Contingency Operation.’ sounds like they are just washing windows after the sand storms, wonder what they will call the “war on Drugs”?

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By OzarkMichael, April 9, 2009 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

In a memo e-mailed this week to Pentagon staff members, the Defense Department’s office of security review noted that “this administration prefers to avoid using the term ‘Long War’ or ‘Global War on Terror’ [GWOT.] Please use ‘Overseas Contingency Operation.’

Night-Gaunt and shenonymous, thanks for finding this as i couldnt remember for sure. Yes, it doesnt exactly stick in one’s mind. But it isnt meant to. Like all euphemisms, the goal is to take the edge off. My natural inclination against euphemisms aside, I am ambivalent. Is the name change a good thing or not?

I think internationally it tries to do a good thing. Obama gives the impression that we arent at war with anyone. The OCO phrase has no violence suggested in it at all. However, thats also the bad thing about a euphemism. If we are shooting at people and killing them we shouldnt throw a cloak over it with a bland phrase. We need to be honest with ourselves and with others. If Obama wishes to continue the war in Afghanistan, the US needs to admit thats what it is.

This war ... or overseas contingency operation… seems to be spreading into Pakistan.

Obama is like Johnson, who inherited a war in Vietnam and thought they could win it.

Or better yet Obama is like Nixon, who campaigned on the promise that the war could be won, but after a few years (which included dragging cambodia into it), ended up backing out of it, which lead to the wreckage of Vienam and Cambodia. Obama campaigned that Afghanistan was the important war. He is making that his very own battle now. And we might get Pakistan into the mix too.

As usual, shenonymous and Night-Gaunt did the work. I can take some credit for introducing the concept and now i have written an original but brief analysis. Is it too much to ask of cyrena to drop the hysteria and make a contribution?

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

oops, my mistake…I’m sleepy, my apologies.

Here is the site: 
http://www.vmwusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=304:obama-to-give-gwot-a-new-name&catid=37:legislation&Itemid=106

The new name is Overseas Contingency Operations OCO
I love that word:  Contingency

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

The replacement name is The Long War, and OGC = Office of Global Communications.

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By cyrena, April 8, 2009 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

By OzarkMichael, April 8 at 1:56 pm #

cyrena acting as if she knows a secret: But, I think you should be aware that our President has again made it clear that the so-called ‘war on terror’ which really meant Dick Bushes ‘war on Islam/Muslims’ is dead-in-the-water. It’s GONE. He’s not having it. WE aren’t having it!!

OM, why in the world would I “act as if I know a secret”? I’m not into ‘secrets’ and there isn’t a goddamned thing SECRET about what the thugs have done to us over the past several decades, but specifically since the Dick Bush Terrorists did their Judicial Coup and high jacked our country/government back in 2000. So, nothing I’ve said (how would you know how I ‘act’ anyway? You don’t know a damn thing about me OM, on account of how you’re not the brightest bulb on the tree).

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment

Interesting that a “neutral” news voice on the Internet reports:
http://palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=6e5dabfc676a13d5af8347cf8c5c65ae&mode=details#6e5dabfc676a13d5af8347cf8c5c65ae
The Palestine Chronicle Article – UN Tracks Rising violence Against Women in Gaza – April 4, 2009
First Paragraph: The UN Development Fund for Women (UNIFEM) in Gaza, local Palestinian NGOs and mental health professionals are reporting increased incidents of domestic violence and sexual assault against women in Gaza since the beginning of 2009.

The time is not tomorrow but today that women of the world rebel against any abuse meted out for their behavior other than for the kinds of crimes written into law that men commit.  This is a different kind of war. One that is a millenia or two overdue.

Aside from philosophical ideas, there are a few social issues I discuss and fiercely argue about on these forums.  Among these are prohibition of free speech, the rotten treatment of women, and the damage done to human beings using religion, or not, as an excuse.  These are ethical and moral issues.  All else you all can rage about and there are plenty who all they want to do is rage is something I couldn’t care less about how you spend your time.  If you don’t like what I say, as it is my own opinion, then just simply, please, respectfully (a word conveniently forgotten by many a commenter here in an adolescent behavior of those who refuse to grow up, and wants more than anything to show their contemptuous bravado), and intelligently say so and let it go at that.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 8, 2009 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment

No problem, I like a good detailed intricate and deep discussion of issues especially if it concerns a little thing like the whole human race.

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2009 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt,

As Shenonymous will attest after a year of discussions and arguments with me, I am not good at pursuing two ideas at a time. i tend to let some good arguments/discussions go in order to pursue a different one. Also i have a terrible habit of arguing with people who are easier to beat(hence my focus on cyrena).

So i am sorry that i havent written yet. I did look at the website. I nosed around a few of the articles. i will disagree with you but i should at least make a good case as to why I disagree.

Your quote of Turgot Ozal is very interesting, it could have many possible meanings but it needs to be understood in context. Since Obama was in Turkey recently that might be the place to deal with cyrena’s remarks. A plan forms.

Night-Gaunt, I will read and respond to the website you listed but i might not put it together right away. We can have a good chat. Thank you for your patience.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 8, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

Actually it is the GWOT phrase has been retired not the “war on terror,” OzarkMichael. Even with the usual vilification from the hard reich partisans the new phrase is more obscurantist and therefor useable for a long time to come till the next renaming of the Long War. It is very slippery and difficult to remember. The initials are OGC. Will someone help?

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2009 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

cyrena acting as if she knows a secret: But, I think you should be aware that our President has again made it clear that the so-called ‘war on terror’ which really meant Dick Bushes ‘war on Islam/Muslims’ is dead-in-the-water. It’s GONE. He’s not having it. WE aren’t having it!!

cyrena, I dont just nod my head when authority figures give their opinions or plans. Unlike some people, i need to take a long look at things before i understand them. I am well aware of what Obama has said and i have been trying to figure out in what way he means it. But my words are too simplistic. The situation is complicated and deserves better. Certainly better than mindless applause. I have to walk around it a few times, and then ponder if history teaches anything that would illuminate the situation. 

But since you bring it up we will talk about it. cyrena, I will to accellerate my usually slow deliberations. I will come up with an analysis of Barack Obama’s policy towards Islam and his declaration of the end of the War on Terror.

I already know that for my trouble you will repay me with insults, but if even one other person besides me learns something it is well worth the trouble of writing.

My special request to you is that you dont run away. You started this with me and you should finish it. If i am as ignorant as you claim it should be easy for you.

Have you heard of the new name Obama has for the conflict? Yes yes, I understand that the “War on Terror” is declared as officially over, but i have seen a new name floating around. After acting so superior to me in this matter, presuming to ‘break the news’ to me, it will look really bad if you dont even try to keep up with me now.

If you dont know the answer you could ask me. There is nothing wrong with that. Because i might know things that you dont. But so far that isnt your way. Its insults when you know something and double insults when you dont.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 8, 2009 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

OzarkMicheal, have you checked out http://www.talk2action.com yet? You will see that the mystical, puritanical, anti-intellectual Third Wave movement is spreading fast. Faster than Islam at this point and especially in Africa, Asia and Latin America. But it came right from here in the USA going back to the 1940’s.

Christianity just like Islam are heavily influenced by Hebrew theology and theonomy (law) which is why you will see parallels between Leviticus and Shari’a Laws. Very dangerous both of them and Leviticus is what threatens us here, not Shari’a. We will have a world religious war as Turgot Ozal, said in 1992 when asked about the next great world war. He was president of Turkey at the time. That is one of the many threats to all of us on this world. We need to turn down the fiery passions not turn them up! President Obama certainly understands that and his work in the Middle East is important. Even though he doesn’t plan to leave if for the foreseeable future. I am disappointed he didn’t tell the Turks that the 1915 massacre of 1.2 million Christian Armenians was genocide as it was.

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By Shenonymous, April 8, 2009 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

Yes, maybe, Leefeller, we should look the other way when women as a practice are used to vent misogynistically virulent violence pent up in male psyches and are beaten, flayed, murdered in public because of a “cultural” called euphemistically by some a “spanking” thing. And when Israel commits violence against Palestinians too?  Or when Hamas sends suicide bombers to kill Israelis.  Maybe we should forget as recent as the 20th century the people burned alive in ovens as well, or the contemporary murdered wholesale in Darfur, making sound bites and lip service to it by the isolationists here and in many other countries, or allow to be forgotten 2914 or so innocent people burned in trade towers, or a million people that must have had thousands upon thousands of innocents killed in Iraq, or what else should we isolationists not care about and go about our gambling habits in Las Vegas or MSNBC betting on what terrorist catastrophe will be next?  How about police brutalities such as the non-participating Brit walking home past a protest beaten then suffering a fatal heart attack right then and there?  We ought not to express any opinion.  And when a woman was walking home from the subway seen in the article Rape Victim Speaks Out After Suit Tossed
filed under: Crime News, National News see news.aol.com/article/subway-rape-victim/414280?icid=main|classic|dl1|link2|http://news.aol.com/article/subway-rape-victim/414280
(the http address in full not allowed, is banned)
No one goes to her assistance but pushed buttons instead, allowing her to be raped twice right then and there.  The clerks were absolved being described as doing what was textbook-manual action.  Lovely information for all women in this country!  Another case of the Kitty Genovese syndrome.  And we must make sure the media does not report such atrocities.  They are just too unpleasant.  We don’t want to hear about it even.  Don’t go around whispering about it either.  We must not care!  We are not of the whole world, We Are of America!

For anyone who is interested in human rights and freedom of speech and other freedoms, the following is a website of a 93-page document titled “The Bells of Freedom with Resource Materials for Facilitators of Non-Formal Education and 24 Human Rights Echo Sessions”
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/education/belfry.pdf
This applies to all countries of this world whether they belong to the UN or not.

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2009 at 12:06 am Link to this comment

This from cyrena: Why in the world would Shari’a be any more ‘dangerous’ than any other legal (or theocratic) bureaucracy unless one who doesn’t subscribe to that particular ideology happens to live in a place where it is practiced?

There is a worldwide, Muslim supported, Sharia based, integral part of Islam that is a threat to your freedom… for some reason you willfully ignore that.

I have shown you several times where Sharia is being pushed forward in the UN Resolution “Dafamation of Religions”. I did it a year ago on Truthdig. You didnt get it then and you dont get it now. This Resolution is widely supported by Muslims all around the world. This aspect of Sharia goes against freedom of speech. It is an integral part of Islam.

cyrena, you describe yourself as a student of international law and Human Rights. And you claim to be on top of your game. How could an ‘expert’ on international law and Human Rights not know about this? Its been going on for four years!  How can you claim to be on top of your game?

cyrena, there is no international Christian, Buddhist, or any other religion doing this at the UN. Only Islam is doing this. So stop the pretending its other religions. You have no evidence of it, you just have insults and multicultural hysteria:

So again, why do you care, and why should any of the rest of us ‘learn’ about it unless we learn it from somebody who actually KNOWS WHAT IT IS? That clearly is NOT –YOU-!! You’re full of hateful propaganda that you must manufacture in some Evangelical version of Dr. Strangelove’s laboratory

Why should you listen to me? I will explain why. The Declaration of Human Rights is under attack from Islam. I have taken the time to study these things. You have not.

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2009 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

Some people do not understand the meaning of the word honor.  I would never divulge personal information about anyone.  Things said in private are not secrets but private and I honor that.  Only the very trite and lifeless threatens to reveal anything about another said in confidence.  Differences of opinion are discussable, revealing private information is disgustable.

Another excerpt from the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/world/asia/04swat.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=flogging of Muslim girl in Pakistan by Taliban&st=cseISLAMABAD

It was not clear what the young woman was accused of.

One account said she had stepped out of her house without being escorted by a male family member, according to Samar Minallah, a rights activist. Ms. Minallah said she distributed the video to local news outlets after it was sent to her by someone from Swat three days ago.

Another account said a local Taliban commander had falsely accused the teenager of violating Islamic law after she refused to accept his marriage proposal.

A Taliban spokesman defended the punishment to the Geo Television Network but said it should not have been done in public.

What kind of animal mentality can defend punishment of this sort?  It is time all women of the world rebelled against any abuse meted out for their behavior other than for the kinds of crimes written into law that men commit. 

The fact that the Taliban wants to defend this kind of primitive brutality against women from the world knowing it and wants to hide its shameful acts shows the kind of savage mentality they have.  It is sickening.

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By Leefeller, April 7, 2009 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Point being, maybe she should move to the middle east were people abuse and these kinds of practices are sanctioned?

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By cyrena, April 7, 2009 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

Imagine this?? Right here in our own little Central Coast Paradise. Anybody surprised? I’m not. Happens every minute of every day, somewhere in AMERICA!!!


Atascadero child locked in closet for days at a time, grandmother accused of abuse
KSBY-TV
updated 1:43 p.m. PT, Thurs., April. 2, 2009


Wednesday, April 1, 2009
Reported by: Stacy Daniel

An Atascadero woman is accused of locking her grandchild in a closet for days at a time.
42-year-old Tammi Underwood is charged with willful cruelty to a child that could result in injury or death. The victim is Underwood’s 9-year-old granddaughter.

Child Welfare Services reported the possible child abuse case to police. Investigators say that’s when Underwood took off to Oregon, leaving the victim with a friend in Northern California, but taking two of her own young children with her.

PRESS RELEASE: Child locked in closet for days at a time, officials locate suspect
Detective Sergeant Joe Allen with the Atascadero Police Department said, “I would say she is wicked. That’s the adjective I would use for her. She’s a wicked person.” (she’s not a Muslim though)


Allen says “wicked” is the only way to describe the Atascadero grandmother accused of locking her granddaughter in a closet for days at a time.
Sergeant Allen said, “When we searched the home, the allegations of mistreatment, of abuse of this child and the detaining of this child for extended periods of time were in fact substantiated.”

Investigators say, inside the rundown yellow home, they found evidence of terrible abuse. In particular, two closets equipped with alarms to notify Underwood if the 9-year-old tried to escape.
Detectives say the walls inside the closet were marked with drawings and the floors soiled with human waste.

Sergeant Joe Allen said, “There was also the evidence the child was being deprived of water, food and restroom facilities.”

Neighbors in the area are still trying to come to terms with what was happening inside this home as they went about their lives as usual.

Tammi Underwood is in Oregon awaiting extradition back into San Luis Obispo County. Her two children and the victim are all in protective custody.
A neighbor who wants to remain anonymous said, “To know that it was right next door to my house and I had no idea what was going on is very eerie and scary for us that, you know, behind closed doors so much can go on and you have no idea.”

Understandably, neighbors wanted to remain anonymous. But they did tell Action News that Underwood kept to herself and seemed like a nice woman.”

Underwood’s bail was set at $100,000.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30002936/

MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2009 MSNBC.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30002936/

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By Leefeller, April 7, 2009 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment

Though I am not into the spanking fetish thing, I find what the Muslims do on their streets should be their own business, maybe like don’t ask don’t tell? We should be looking the other way, like what they do for white collar crime here in the good old USA. Now, turning the other cheek may bring us back, to where I started.

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By cyrena, April 7, 2009 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I swear you have more damn ‘issues’ than the New York Times. Typical that you won’t use modern technology to deal with it,  (Like MEDS for the personal mental/psychological turmoil and chaos) but that’s pretty much par for the course with you types.

Be that as it may, I thought I’d share this check-list for those who might be able to understand it and even appreciate the ‘prompts’. Most decent folk know this stuff, but the occasional prompt never hurts. And some might even find prompts to a whole new way of thinking. Now wouldn’t that be a wonderful thing?

Nope, I’m not the least bit concerned that this might appear to some to be ‘off topic.’ In fact, I can’t think of a better place to post it, aside from about a half dozen other Truthdig pieces.

“It’s okay to Quit…..”  Motivational Speaker - Veraunda Jackson

1. Quit arguing with people about the same old foolishness! Respect their position and keep it moving!

2. Quit telling people your secrets when you know they are not going to keep them! And if you keep telling them, then quit getting mad when they tell your secrets!

***3. Quit trying to pull people on your journey who don’t want to travel with you. Either they believe in you and value you…or they don’t!

4. Quit complaining about things you can’t and won’t change!

5. Quit gossiping about other people! Minding our own business should be a full time job!

**6. Quit blaming each other for things that in the big picture aren’t going to matter three weeks from now! Talk solutions…and then implement them!

7. Quit eating things you know are not good for you! If you can’t quit…eat smaller portions!

8. Quit buying things when we know we can’t afford them! If you don’t have self control, then quit going to the stores! Quit charging things, especially when you don’t NEED them!

9. Quit staying in unhealthy relationships! It is not okay for people to verbally and/or physically abuse you! So quit lying to yourself! It is not okay to stay in the marriage for the children! Ask them and they will tell you that they really would prefer to see you happy and that the misery you and your spouse/partner are living with is affecting them!

10. Quit letting family members rope you into the drama! -Start telling them you don’t want to hear it! Quit spreading the drama! Quit calling other relatives and telling them about your cousin,uncle,or aunt! Go back to #5 minding your own business should be enough to keep you busy!

11. Quit trying to change people! IT DOESN’T WORK! Quit cussing people out when you know that they are just being the miserable and jealous people that they are!

12. Quit the job you hate! Start pursuing your passion. Find the job that fuels your passion BEFORE you quit!

13. Quit volunteering for things that you aren’t getting any personal fulfillment from anymore! Quit volunteering for things and then failing to follow through with your commitment!

14. Quit listening to the naysayers! Quit watching the depressing news if you are going to live in the doom and gloom of it all!

15. Quit making excuses about why you are where you are or why you can’t do what you want to do!

***16. Quit waiting on others to give you the answers…and start finding the answers for yourself! If what you are doing isn’t working for you…then quit it!

17. Quit settling and start making your dreams a reality!- Quit being afraid and START LIVING YOUR LIFE! CREATE THE LIFE YOU WANT! If you want something different than what you have had in the past…you must quit doing what you have done before and DO something different! JUST QUIT IT ...... and START DOING something to create the experience you want!”

My own addition – QUIT thinking “ME” and start thinking “WE”!

“Life is short, but there is always time enough for courtesy and kindness.”

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By Shenonymous, April 7, 2009 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

The infantile name-calling continues.  Unbelievable.

Well here is something you can believe:
I do not say that all Muslims are culpable.  However, any religion that practices the disgusting and barbaric treatment of women as these Islamists do is evil and deserves to be destroyed themselves.  Any one who can justfiy this is evil can only claim to be inhuman.  If there are any others that do this kind of damage to women, please post them here on this forum with pictures and only reputable news agencies reports please.

Video of Taliban Flogging Rattles Pakistan
By SALMAN MASOOD
Published: April 3, 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/world/asia/04swat.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=flogging of Muslim girl in Pakistan by Taliban&st=cseISLAMABAD

Pakistan — The video shows a young woman held face down as a Taliban commander whips her repeatedly with a leather strap. “Leave me for the moment — you can beat me again later,” she screams, pleading for a reprieve and writhing in pain.

Also at this NYT site: An undated image taken from mobile phone footage released by Dunya TV Channel shows a woman in a body-covering burka face down on the ground being flogged.

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/2009/04/03/pakistan-tracing-the-flogging-footage/

Mobile phone footage of a teenage girl being flogged publicly in Pakistan’s Swat Valley is now circulating widely

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By cyrena, April 7, 2009 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

OM writes:

•  “Sharia is a danger to you. It will limit your freedom. You need to learn about it.”

~*~*
OM, you’re still crazy as a Betsy Bug. Why in the world would Shari’a be any more ‘dangerous’ than any other legal (or theocratic) bureaucracy unless one who doesn’t subscribe to that particular ideology happens to live in a place where it is practiced?

Otherwise, why would you even CARE about Shari’a? You aren’t a Muslim, you don’t live in a country where Shari’a Law is practiced, (though the same cannot be said about the blur between our alleged secular state and the 40 million or so Christian Crazo’s waiting on the Rapture or some such other nonsense. Now THEY are dangerous.)

But I digressed. I still don’t get why you’re so obsessed with Shari’a? Are you planning to relocate to Indonesia or some other place where Sharia’a Law is the recognized form of the government? Why would you do that, aside from the fact that the economy is probably in better shape or will recover far more quickly than the rest of the world based on the far wiser financial system that is dictated by Shari’a Law in places where it is practiced.

So again, why do you care, and why should any of the rest of us ‘learn’ about it unless we learn it from somebody who actually KNOWS WHAT IT IS? That clearly is NOT –YOU-!! You’re full of hateful propaganda that you must manufacture in some Evangelical version of Dr. Strangelove’s laboratory.

Now I hate to tell you this, (but at least I didn’t bring it to your attention earlier, only to be accused of pissing in your Cherrios) But, I think you should be aware that our President has again made it clear that the so-called ‘war on terror’ which really meant Dick Bushes ‘war on Islam/Muslims’ is dead-in-the-water. It’s GONE. He’s not having it. WE aren’t having it!!

Foreign policy now (cyrena’s paraphrase)  will be this: “We will treat equals as equals” which is what our Universal Laws are about. We will cooperate with the International Community as one of those EQUALS.

We will repair our relationship with the rest of the world because we are in the 21st Century now, and if there’s any chance of our future generations seeing the 22nd, it’s an absolute REQUIREMENT!!  That includes a WHOLE BUNCH OF MUSLIMS!! Current statistics vary from 1.3 to 1.7 BILLION hear on our shared planet, (which is becoming much smaller by the way, whether you like it or not.)

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By cyrena, April 7, 2009 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

Here are some other updates and reminders:

We are NOT an Empire, and we CANNOT create our own reality, no matter what Karl Rove told you. The reality is that we have to learn to respect the reality that DOES exist.

Terrorism is NOT synonymous with Muslims or Islam. In fact, it is the antithesis of the basic tenets of Islam.

Terrorism is an asymmetrical tactic of political warfare, and it’s been practiced for centuries. The first act of terrorism in North America was what became known as The Boston Tea Party. Like I said, it’s been in use around the globe for many, many, centuries, depending on how long you think the planet has had human existence.

Now the kind of terrorism we’re facing here (the world) and now, is a global terrorism based strictly on geopolitics. It isn’t about Religion with a big or a little ‘r’. It’s about politics…specifically the type that the US engages in, with its goal of global hegemony provided by military domination. In short, the US wants to be an hegemonic empire, and it just ain’t in the cards. (If it makes you feel any better, EMPIRES NEVER SURVIVE!)

So we’re downsizing, (a little late, necessity being the mother of invention) and IN CONJUNCTION with the rest of the International Community, we’ll get through this crisis, and we’ll ALSO deal with what/where real terrorism actually exists. Now the most difficult part of that job is already being accomplished. Because, as soon as we start advising the rest of the world that we have a new NON-Empire, NON-hegemonic agenda now, the rest of the world will have no reason to terrorize us. (no guarantees on Dick Cheney stopping his terror, but it’s currently being made clear to the rest of the world that the former Cheney agenda is dead- in- the- water as well.)

So that’s the New 21st Century Deal OM. We’re gonna wipe out terrorism by reversing our policy of being the terrorists. Now maybe you should take a pill or have a shot of brandy of something before you read our President’s remarks on this new agenda. Or take a double dose of Immodium so you won’t shit your pants. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/world/europe/07prexy.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/opinion/04sat1.html

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By Night-Gaunt, April 7, 2009 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

Check out http://www.talk2action.com and you will have a different outlook OzarkMicheal. The Dominionists want to impose Leviticus style laws here regardless of when they were written or for whom. As for freedoms, they were not given by any religion in fact in direct resistance to them. We are each born with those freedoms as Jefferson, with Madison’s editing, wrote as our parents were before them. We just needed to assert them and protect them from all comers. That is why we weren’t a theocracy either explicitly nor implicitly. Thank William Bradford for the imagery of a “wall of separation” as he left the theocratic Massachusetts Bay Colony to found his own secular Rhode Island colony to get away from them. He was no atheist. The first American patriot.

If our rights are ‘god given’ then they can be taken away. We have them in situ when we are born not given by anyone or anything. That idea is being killed right now in the world of theocracies and would be ones budding, bursting and spreading over millions right now.

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By Leefeller, April 7, 2009 at 11:38 am Link to this comment

So this post is still breathing. Ozark Michael, were does Sara Palin and people who believe as she, dovetail into Evangelism from your perspective?

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By OzarkMichael, April 7, 2009 at 11:12 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt said: You fear Shari’a Law but not Leviticus which is just as bad

Leviticus is widely understood to have happened in a particular place and time. Much that happened is given as a once-in-history type of event. Most of the rules given to the Jews by God were not universally applicable to all people. Furthermore, since that time, everyone, even most Jews, realize that many of the rules are not meant for today.

Leviticus is no danger to you. There is not an international movement trying to apply Leviticus to intenational law.

Contrast this to the Sharia, which is forever binding upon all Muslims. Furthermore, there were parts of it which claimed and still claim today to apply to non-Muslims as well. It is widely understood to be the not merely a basis for law, but it is the law forever, binding upon all people, including non-Muslims. The OIC( More than 50 Islamic nations) is trying to impose Sharia on the world.

Sharia is a danger to you. It will limit your freedom. You need to learn about it.

I hope the difference between Leviticus and Sharia is clear.

You made no mention of that or the Christian fascists…

He did that with good reason. I have been a Christian for 30 years. In my job I meet many many Christians. I have been in many churches. I have not met a Christian fascist yet. Not one.

Do you understand that the ‘Christian fascist’ is 99% hype? It doesnt threaten you. It is propaganda for the purpose of keeping you whipped and afraid. You will not be forced to work at Haliburton.

Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism is the bugaboo that threatens us.

The idea that Christian fundamentalism is a force against freedom is a relatively new concept. Christian fundamentalism has been right here in America since before the founding of this nation and it hasnt caused fascism yet. I think the vast majority of evidence suggests that Christian fundamentalism is one of the foundations of your freedom.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 7, 2009 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

I am only internationalist in that all humans have the same rights to life, liberty and happiness. You fear Shari’a Law but not Leviticus which is just as bad and there are those here, many of them powerful and connected to the highest echelons in the USA who wish to implement it here. You made no mention of that or the Christian fascists who still have a grip on our country and are spreading around the world taking over churches and turning them to their pre-millenialist point of view. Assemblies of God and Joel’s Army are just a few heads of that hydra. Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism is the bugaboo that threatens us. Though maybe not you Truthnotlies since you are a true believer. Just hope it is the right version of it. If I am lucky I will get away or be killed, if not I will be tortured and maybe slave labor for one of their corporations like Halliberton. When our economy falls and the people lose confidence in our gov’t they will come out and offer us their claw saying they “will protect you and keep you sound and fed and with a job.” Who would turn that down?

What does ‘IslamoFascism’ mean? Is it the merger of religion/state/corporation? Or is it just the right wing’s use of semantics to attenuate their fears to the Great Patriotic War (WWII)?

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By Trithoverlies, April 5, 2009 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Here is my answer, I don’t believe in this bologna of Internationalism Yes I am an American not A Euro-American. I also don’t believe that Professor Yoo wrote anything on circumventing our laws. He may have on the other hand showed us some of the limits that our laws have placed on them that actually do make our laws cumbersome, unyeilding to circumstances, and unworkable.  Toture is evidentally in the eye of the beholder, Loud Music, and sleep deprivation is not tortue according to the Geneva convention and nether is humiliating treatment thought I believe that it was inappropriate for anybody to do what that one group of soldiers did. I also believe that Getmoizing Abu Grav did not mean giving some soldiers the right to humiliate the prisoners. Only one canadian Al-Queda driver who was Benladin’s driver/bodyguard said he was tortured and if you believe he was just a driver I have a Bridge in Brooklyn up for sell. The International law courts have been influenced so much by the growing Islamist Community of Europe that they are looking at Sharia Law working side by side with European Common Law,they are diametrically opposed to each other. Sharia law recognize honor killings and Fatwa ordered Killings as legally protected this is why I say the internation courts can’t work they have to bow to the pressures placed on them by 25% of the European population of Islamist. These who lead in most parts of Europe are one of three Groups The Wahabis, the Shi’ites, are Talhaban type radicals.  Europe will be Majority Islamist by 2040 A.D. than European Common Law will be a thing of the past If you don’t understand this after seeing the upevil in France on the nightly news about a year ago than you are in denial of the Truth. I again said that there most be a rule of law that can’t be circumvented by societal preasures and Europe does not have such a system and evan here we are lossing the foundations due to societals warpped Judgment There must be a solid bedrock that is unshackable are there is no such thing as the rule law.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. I don’t think you are a monster I just believe you don’t want to look at the other side of any argument if it doesn’t agree with you. You nor I have the right to be judge and jury without all the evidence and neither of use should judge Professor John Yoo based on a misiterpretation of his writings or based on the ranting of a Islamist Terrorist Financier in Spain or a Government that is afraid of its on shadow that when 119 Spannish citizens were killed by Islamist in Madrid they ran from the Islamist rather than confront them compounding the problem of IslamoFascism a real rather than imagined problem. I unfortunately see the Idea of posativistic Law Invading our laws which will lead us down the dark road to Sharia Law as well.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 5, 2009 at 11:40 am Link to this comment

Fine judge me by my writings too as will John Yoo who wrote how to go about circumventing not just our own laws (& morality) but also international law as the US is a signatory to and therefore part of our Constitution. You do know that don’t you Truthnotlies? At least this time you responded to me, sort of. Am I that monstrous of a figure to you? If so I apologize for I have no such aspirations or inclinations to be such. Just to get to the truth of the matter. Something which you avoid like the plague.

Why do you say that the EU courts are working with the ‘terrorists’ and why are their courts ‘kangaroo’ in you mind? Just because Yoo is an American citizen the laws he broke affect him and they can try him for it. You must be a nationalist which trumps morality of the species and your God too. Loss of sovereignty? What about all of those snatched not off of battlefields but city streets and carried to one or more of the black site prisons for torture and endless incarceration? Proof? They didn’t need badges or the Constitution to abduct and imprison. Where is your love and understanding of them? Any to be had in that bottomless well of God’s love you contain, Truthnotlies? I don’t expect you to answer me on many of the points. Or any for as is typical of you. But then that is freedom. Enjoy it for those in our dark constellation of hidden gulags certainly don’t. Obama has yet to give the order to shut them down and expose them to the light they deserve. All it takes is an executive order to get it done. Will he? Would you? I would in a heart beat.

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By Trithoverlies, April 4, 2009 at 3:51 pm Link to this comment

I was talking about yours and Cyrena’s rush to judgment not the Judicial system of the United State, By the way It is Eropeans fouled up legal system that has arrsted Professor John Yoo Not Americas and They have no right to Judge an American to begin with they are aready in bed with the Terrorist and their financiers You can make a personel judgment but I was pointing out that you and the rest of you leftist shout the Bible verse Judge not less you be Judged. Not that a Judicial system has no right to look at evidence but that it should be an American Judicial system with a jury made up of his peers not People from Europe who have no concept of right and wrong. Not people who think Common Law and Sharia Law can work hand in hand when they are dametrically opposed. So read the whole thing before you go off half cocked. No American Citizen should betriedbefore a European Kangaroo Court You should not neither should Cyrena yet you both seem to relish with glee that an American should be tried in such a court in Spain. So judge not less you be judged.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
        John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 4, 2009 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

Dear Truthoverlies, are you for abolishing of our judicial and penal systems so that your God can render judgment? If not then we shall stay with these trappings of civilization. Even with the perverted writings of those such as John Yoo and those who used it as the criterion for incarceration, torture and indeed murder wholly un-Constitutional and are in fact evil. (At least 100 known dead as a direct result of these ‘measures’ to ‘protect us’ by the past regime and maybe this one too.)Are you for or against evil? Is what has been done in our name evil to you? Do you think the human soul is more important than the flesh? Were the Crusades and the Inquisition also right or wrong? If so how? Just trying to see where you can show the parameters of which you function as a moralist in this society. You know mine and it is unequevical.

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By Trithoverlies, April 4, 2009 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

Cyrena, You have already tried and convicted am man without due process of Law this says alot more about your character than it does about the guilt or innocense of John Yoo.  I do not believe a terrorist sympathizer, and Finnancier to be a reliable witness in any way so I believe personally that this is a case with a rush to judgment based on feelings rather than fact. Have you not heard Jesus said Judge not least you be judged I don’t know your Heart but God does and since he is the one true and righteous Judge I have withheld my personal judgment as to Yoo’s guilt or innocense I do not know what the charges are and I do not know theevidence for or agianst Him but you either do or you have rushed to judgment because of your hate of althings done by America to keep you safe and able to spew your maliceousness.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2009 at 7:56 am Link to this comment

It seems true that Israel drew a veil over criminal actions in the treatment of their soldiers.  At least the world has been made apprised that there are questions about the crimes and the investigation disingenuous as it might seem.  We do not know the full circumstances but we do conjecture, a very human consistent error.  Hamas on the other hand does not even address the possibility of their culpability.  How does that give them honor?  There is always a coat of farce on investigations to those who do not like the outcomes.  While I might agree with you about the US military investigation of the Haditha massacre, again, publicity surrounding the entire action of the court is not known.  We only “know” what the crime looks like and the prima facie outcome of the trial.  I am not ever too quick to place judgment when I do not know The Facts.  Sympathies always tint these things the way a sympathizer wants to see them.  Indignancies are keenly felt and always stings sensibilities. 

I cannot argue the problem stated about the phosphorous used against civilians.  Whatreallyhappened may not be giving all the factors involved.  The use of human shields is said in the plural when the article references only one incident involving three brothers.  Hamas made it an intentional practice to use scores of civilians in which to hide their operations.  The website you link shows only a photograph, where is the text.  A story given by the brothers shows they obviously were not harmed and are able to clearly give their account.  The 2007 soldiers’ house-to-house check with a civilian in their lead leaping up the steps does not prove the person was used as a shield but could be simply going to his home.  The boy on the jeep also does not prove or even imply he was used as a shield but is being retained as a partisan to the terrorists.  News accounts are notorious for writing or presenting their stories for the most glamorously odious reasons.  It would be so much less exciting to write that soldiers were house to house hunting for terrorist attackers.  It is what soldiers are supposed to do! 

The Haaretz dot com link starts their article, “Rules of Engagement: Open fire also upon rescue,” was handwritten in Hebrew on a sheet of paper found in one of the Palestinian homes the Israel Defense Forces took over during Operation Cast Lead. A reservist officer who did not take part in the Gaza offensive believes that the note is part of orders a low-level commander wrote before giving his soldiers their daily briefing.  I cannot even imagine that this is an indictment that it was a policy to shoot at civilians or use them as shields.  That Israel “engineered the siege” is not supported by any other way than your performative utterance.  There was no statement nor implication on my part to accuse “all” Arabs and Palestinians as sympathetic liars to Hamas. 

The reasons why Egypt and Saudi Arabia rely on Western support is not surprising.  I see that reliance as within the realm of reason. I do not see my own nation as bad as you obviously do.  I am not trying to kid about “groups which refuse to renounce armed action in the Arab/Israel conflict” only restated what was in the Palestine Chronicle article. 

We will see what shall be the outcome of the Doha summit.

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By cyrena, April 1, 2009 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

Happy to hear that International Law is still working in some areas Cyrena. John Yoo was the (Nazi-style) Jurist of our age. Truthnotlies had no comment on his guilt or complicity in War Crimes did he? These war crimes are international and other countries have the right to arrest him or any other offical or former one for criminal acts or supporting them as Yoo has written. Torture is a war crime and as the Red Cross has said, that is what the USA engaged in. Also if the USA has signed treaties then it is Constitutional automatically. [By-the-way the Confederates were traitors who were in open rebellion and those Marylanders could have been hung as spies and saboteurs if Lincoln had so wanted couldn’t he?]

~*~

You are soooo right here Night-Gaunt. I don’t even bother responding to liesovertruth because he writes these long diatribes, (addressing them to me) without a clue to my own background, which I don’t generally make an issue of, unless it happens to come up in the course of the conversation. So, just for the hell of it, I’ll come clean here. I am an academic who, with a JD, a BA in Constitutional Law, and an MA in International Law, and currently finishing up my doctoral work in International Law.

This isn’t a ‘brag’, but it is what I do, and I admit to being very blessed to have Prof. Richard Falk, Princeton Emeritus and Professor of International Law, specifically International Human Rights Law as my academic mentor.

So, I count my blessings daily, because I’ve had the opportunity to study with the very best in the field, and after 27 years in the Commercial Aviation Transportation industry, this (IHL) has become my passion.

That’s why I laughed out loud when liesovertruth was doing his rant on the Constitution. I TEACH the stuff.

Meantime, you’re so right about the ICRC, and what they did with the Guantanamo report was really unprecedented. As you probably know, the ICRC NEVER makes an assessment publicly. The ‘protocol’ is that they go in to make their assessment/reports, but they only report to the leaders of the offending nation, and to their own organization. In the case of Gitmo, (and it took a couple of years before they were even allowed in - another violation since the law allows the International Red Cross to go ANYWHERE) they made the report public, because the violations are so very blatant.

So, when this Blossom character starts going on and on, I just laugh, because in terms of his addressing me, it’s beyond ‘preaching to the choir’ and more like preaching to the person who wrote the book.

Again, I’m not trying to brag on myself or anyone else. It just is what it is, and it is my field. Blossom preaching to me about the Constitution or International Law would be like me preaching to a clergy member about the Bible, and I’m an Atheist. I don’t know one chapter of the Bible from the next, nor am I the least bit interested in finding out about it. I read it once, (long, long ago) and found it to be depressingly violent, with all of the fire and brimstone. So the only thing I know about the Bible is that I don’t want to know anything else from that particular field of interest.

On Constitutional Law and International Law, I’m at the top of the game. wink

So liesovertruth isn’t just preaching to the choir, he’s preaching to the teacher, which I actually find sort of comical. It proves what a fraud he is.

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By Shingo, April 1, 2009 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

I came across someone just like you on another blog.  A Chrtisian zealout who shares your degree of extremism, paranoia and profound ignorance. Like you, little of what he said was based on fact or personal experience and almost entirely on what he was told or read on some right wing blog.

How has Italy ever managed to affect U.S. sovereignty, let alone eliminated it?  Spain hates us, and are communist wannabes?  Really?  Do you have links to any of this stuff or are you simply getting dictation from the voices in your head?  Like your fellow traveler on the other forum you speak of love and truth, then proceed to post a blog full of bile, hatred, xenophobia and fear. 

The rule of law in American has nothing whatsoever to do with the Law of God.  In fact, the founding fathers were explicit about the separation of church and state when they drafted the constitution.

The Bush Administration represented the darkest and sorriest 8 years of this country’s history, at least in the last 50 years.  Under the presidency, which was stolen anyway, we went from being respected and admired to be despised and pitied. We have not become a shadow of our former selves.  The pillars of true jurisprudence were destroyed under Bush, who flouted laws and bypassed them whenever it suited him.  He brought torture, assassination and extraordinary rendition to our country – the very evils we led the world in fighting against.  We brought wars to countries that were no threat to us.

Of course we see the destruction of America.  We have already witnessed it under 8 years of George Bush.  Israel’s destruction is inevitable because Israel is self destructing.  Like the US, it is becoming the Soddom and Gomorra of the modern day.

So tell us, how do you FEEL about this?  The threat to us will never be from the Sharia Law that you insist is coming, it is coming from within.  Yes indeed, the Devil who is a real liar and deceiver, but as Jesus has told us, when he comes he will not be dressed in a turban or a head sarfe, he will be someone whom we think we can respect and admire and relate to. 
Even Pastor John Hagee, no doubt a big hero of your, believes that the anti Christ will be a Jew.

We all feel sorry for you because you are your fellow travelers are staking the future entirely on your belief that Jesus will return and pick you as his chosen and cast away all your enemies.  Your arrogance and ignorance blinds you to the fact that you have bastardized and distorted Christianity and fail to represent the very values that Jesus spoke of.  You will be among those that say to Jesus, why have you forsaken us.

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By Night-Gaunt, April 1, 2009 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

Truthnotlies, isn’t Shari’a Law not too different from Leviticus and in fact was influenced by it? Can Leviticus be side-by-side with USA secular law? No, and should never be even though there are many here who want it to be the law of the land. Who want a theocracy here. Do you Mr. Bloxson want it to be a Land of God, your god that is?

A major psychological impetus for the Israeli Zionists is their nationalism supported by their religion. Their version of Manifest Destiny. The belief that the Land of Canaan was for them as designated by their invisible formless deity called JHVH which admonished them to kill every man, woman, child and even the farm animals in order to score it clean of impurities to their Promised Land. [Sound familiar?] The Palestinians are their contaminate and the Zionists wish to remove them for nationalist, historic, and religious grounds. However with the whole world watching they must be circumspect and careful in how they do it. Slow and steady with occasionally outbursts of violence at specifically timed periods like recently to the open air gulag called Gaza. The bombing of Syria or Iraq if they think they are gaining in nuclear energy production to challenge them in the supremacy of weapons. [Even if they are not working on that at all.] Using their own Monroe Doctrine to be the ultimate power in that region and remain so. Solidly backed by the USA.

Happy to hear that International Law is still working in some areas Cyrena. John Yoo was the (Nazi-style) Jurist of our age. Truthnotlies had no comment on his guilt or complicity in War Crimes did he? These war crimes are international and other countries have the right to arrest him or any other offical or former one for criminal acts or supporting them as Yoo has written. Torture is a war crime and as the Red Cross has said, that is what the USA engaged in. Also if the USA has signed treaties then it is Constitutional automatically. [By-the-way the Confederates were traitors who were in open rebellion and those Marylanders could have been hung as spies and saboteurs if Lincoln had so wanted couldn’t he?]

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By Trithoverlies, April 1, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Cyrena,
Go ahead kick up your hills but you have no understanding of the truth when they in Italy did this they effectively eliminated U.S. sovereignty thus yours and my right to a jury of our peers has been stolen for a pot of peas and you think this a good thing? What a warped mind you have. The spanish guy who brought the charges was a terrorist financier and spent some time in prison for it and the prime minister of Spain hates us and is an Communist wanna be and the International law you are so enamored at is a sham and is based on the whims of the mob rather then a bedrock foundation of truth. This is much like what the mob did in France in 1789 that caused the death of countless innocent people during the French Revolutions Reign of Terror. You believe in the bolonga that is called postmodernity which is the lead to chaos and dictatorship and you seem to openely want this. Saddly you have an eschewed Idea of your on openion and its wieght in the truth you don’t love the Truth to begin with. If you walk on the grass at France’s Louve you can now be arrested according to international law and held anywhere in Europe for extradoition and this is a good thing that is just foolishness. Are you an American believing in the rule of true law with its foundations in the Law of God or are you one of those who believe that sharia Law can be practiced side by side with American Common Law as the Judges that will hear this trumped up case of Bolonga brought by a terrorist financier of the 911, and the train bombings in Spain terror cells. You who want your personal vendeta against anyone that was a member of the Bush Administration to go world wide and destroy this country. You are happy because the pillars of true jurisprudence have now been broken at their very Foundation by the Terrorist through their lawyers how abomnable is that? You don’t see the destruction of America, and Israel which is the Terrorist and Terrorist States one and only goal. How are you going to feel when that goal is accomplished and you are told to put on the Burka. Really do you think that we are safer today when just yesterday the head of the Talhiban said that he had a plan that would cause shock and amazement in other word some attack that will hurt innocent people in Washington D.C. If you are naive enough to believe you can bargain with the Islamic Radicals than I feel sorry for you because you are bargaining with the Devil who is a real lier and deciever. You can’t call me and Islamphobe because I said the Radicals not the regular Muslims who want to live free and at peace with their neighbors. The problem is that the Mullahs incharge are the radicals of the Wahabi sect, or the Shia radicals under the Clerics in Iran ,or the Mullahs that run the area where the Talhiban are the Law in the Northwestern provinces of Pakistan. Where the Al Queda Hijackers on 911, and the suicide bombers of the trains in Spain are on player trading card just like our baseball cards, but you don’t believe this do you? 
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
        John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By cyrena, March 31, 2009 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

My faith in the International legal system has been rewarded. This just in (my email box) from one of my PDA groups for Justice and Accountability:

For some reason, the reuters link doesn’t work now, (maybe they hurriedly snatched it off. The body of the article is still intact.

I was so tickled to read this that I tried to kick up my heels and fell on my ass. I didn’t even care. smile

Seen this???  Check out this arrest photo: http://tinyurl.com/dypg7u
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/taxonomy/term/15

Former U.S. Official Arrested in Italy

Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:58 pm EDT http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUNSEO17955925090401

By P.V. Maro

ROME (Reuters) - John C. Yoo, a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the United States, was arrested on Tuesday in Milan, Italy, and is being held for possible extradition to Spain, where he and five other retired officials who served under former President George W. Bush are expected to be indicted by a Spanish court for violations of the Geneva Conventions, the Convention Against Torture, and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Yoo, 41, is a visiting professor of Law at the Chapman University School of Law in Orange County, California, on leave from the University of California Berkeley School of Law.  He served in the Office of Legal Counsel in the U.S. Department of Justice from 2001 to 2003.  Yoo authored memos permitting the use of torture.  Torture is banned by both U.S. law and international conventions.

Milan prosecutor Andrea Spolini released a statement indicating that Yoo can be held for up to 90 days awaiting an indictment in Spain under the international standard of “Rompi Testiculo.”

(Edited by Antonio Gramsci)

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By Trithoverlies, March 31, 2009 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena,
The trampling on the Constitution started way back with Pres. Lincoln and the arrest and incarceration of several thousand Marylanders that were sympathetic to the south during the Civil War 1861-1865, but it goes on to the L.B.J. war on the family in 1968, and Nixons watergate, Reagans Iran/contra, and Clinton’s
distruction of our Inteligence gethering ability and the cut in half our military spending which left us vanerable in 2000, and you blame it all on one president but ever since the Civil War your liberal law profs and lawyers have been trampling all over the constitution dening the rights of Christians to speak out about political abuses and the Liberal Medea has done so the New York Times had a bomb shell to anounce in October but did not release it to level the political playing field they set on a pulitzer story because it showed the Obam Machine in a poor light with ACORN and its political scandal. Rules are made and some times they are stretched to the limits when Licoln imprisoned those men in Maryland he prevented the state from joining the Confederacy was it right NO was it a deal that had to be done yes.  Today we are at war with a people who use suicide bombering, murder, and then hide behind the inocent to kill and in so doing many inocents are being killed they attack Mosque, Holy Sites and school buses, they attack pizza places, Malls, and markets they wear no uniform they do not fight by the rules of War, you and your leftist friends hate Israel but to condemn all because of a few Thatwould be like me calling for the round up, imprisonment or deportation of all Muslims which is assinine. Are there bad Israeli’s Yes are they the majority NO are there Bad Muslims Yes, but the majority just want to raise their children in a safe invironment this will not happen as long as Hamas, Hezbollah, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Al Queda, Wahabism, Shi’ite radicalism, and the Talhaban hold the rest in their clutches. Some people are just evil others are missinformed, some are brain washed, and some do something wrong because it is explained that to stop a wrong you must some times committ a wrong act. Most peole today look at Israel as the only culpret that is stopping world peace but that is a lie, Russia sells the plans to Iran to produce Nuclear missles and makes alliances with terrorist states to destroy Israel. North Korea spends billions on weapons and its army while allowing 1 million to starve to death. Zambabwe’s Pres Moghbe broke up the farm land into small lots and destroyed the ability to feed his country, Pres. Hugo Cheveze tramples on the right of political decent and land holdings comfiscating the property of any opponants. China has imprisoned thousand of Christians yet you don’t make a big stink about them why are you so passionatly against Israel and the Unted States?  Socialism doesn’t work it is worse than capatalism which rewards people for innovation and gets rid of those who do not. Is capitalism wrong no but it is like the saying “power corrupts, Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely.”  Man is a broken vessel with a eschewed sinse of
right and wrong they call bad good and good bad this is not new but as old as man Cain killed Abel. This opened the flood gates on corruption so that all to soon the thought of man was bent on evil. This is just as true today with all humans living. We see it in the gang warfare in our streets we see it in the 8000 victims of drug wars, we see it when a talahban man throws acid on three girls that just wanted to learn. the mob beat an teacher to death because she ellegidly accidentally touched a students Quran, In war stress brings out the very best in them for other it brings out the very evil hidden within. But please stop taring all with the same brush.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By cyrena, March 31, 2009 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena you tout to me the fact that pres. Obama is a “Constitutional scholar” which I must admit is meaning less and less in this country. Just as that oath they take to protect said Constitution (with the Bill of Rights) that each president and other members of our gov’t take seems to be used to get around said documents instead of upholding them. That includes the 95 year Drug War, and the occupation of Iraq to Gay marriage are connected to it.

Night-gaunt,

I’ll admit that our Constitution has meant less and less over the past 8 years, seeing as how Dick Bush used it for toilet paper for all of that time, and David Addington, (cheney’s right and left hands) wrote most of the destruction.

If our Constitution means less and less, it was to be expected under that totalitarian regime. What they’ve done since 2000 is to completely rewrite it, without ever formally burying it. Hitler did the same thing, created a new Constitution under these exact same circumstances, but they never ‘formally’ retired the original Weimer Constitution that had been the Constitution of prewar Germany. Rather, they just set up their own new one.

Our own Hitler, (Dick Cheney) did the same thing here. The good part is that not only President Obama, but many others, still have copies, so we KNOW what our Constitution is supposed to look like. As a Professor of Constitutional Law for 12 years at the Univ of Chicago, then Prof. Obama was at the top of his game. We have a few like him on our faculty here. Dr. Laura Kalman is both an attorney and an historian specializing in the History of Constitutional Law. I’ve been overwhelmingly fortunate to have studied under her, as well as the top guy in International Law, and specifically International Humanitarian Law, with is my own field.

So, don’t try to tell me that our Constitution means less and less, just because the former regime trashed it and violated all of it’s principles. It may ‘mean less’ to you, and it obviously meant NOTHING to those who trashed it, but that happens to be quite relative, seeing as it means a whole hell of a lot to most of us, and we hired Barack Obama to restore it.

So far, he’s doing a hell of a job. In that respect, (restoring our Constitution) he’s been faster than the speed of light.

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By Shingo, March 31, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I raised this point because Trith and Sephard have been insisting that Israel would bring justice to those who broke the law, while simultaneously comparing that Israel was holding these investigations (And not Hamas) as some watermark of Israel’s righteousness.  I have maintained all along that these investigations would be a farce.

There was no political will to find fault within Israeli ranks. The conclusion had been already been decided. Facts be damned. In the end, all that matters is the result.  In the US, the military investigated itself over the Haditha massacre.  All those involved got off under technicalities, but the only thing anyone will remember is that no one was found guilty.

This is not simply a matter of what the Palestinians are claiming.  First, there is the fact that Israel banned foreign journalists from entering Gaza, which meant that the only accounts coming out of Gaza were Israeli or Palestinian.  Secondly, there is the testimony of member of the IDF themselves that claim war crimes were committed and thus contradict the finding of Israel’s investigation.  And of course, there are reports by the UN, HRW etc.

The use of white phoshorous on civlians is there in photographs.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/WPgaza.jpg

The use of human shields by the IDF caught on video.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-human-shields

The accounts of Isrseli soldiers and the orders they were given:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072830.html

You can’t lament the fact that we have no way of being 100% of what happened, without acknowledging that this is the way Israel engineered the siege. So yes, the majority of accounts come from Arabs and Palestinians and we know they can’t be trusted because they’re all sympathetic to Hamas terrorists and therefore assumed to be liars.  The IDF accounts are being ignored in the hope they will just go away.

The leaders of Egypt and Saudi Arabia distrust Iran and are reliant on Western support to keep them in power, so understandably, they will repeat the mantra from Washington and Tel Aviv that the key to the strength of Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian territories is Iran.  This argument attempts to deny the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas were not created by Iran and do not exist because of Iran.  And please, who do you think you’re kidding about “groups which refuse to renounce armed action in the historic Arab conflict with Israel”?  Who was it that “celebrated” the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel, nlot to mention, voting a war criminal and 2 former terrorist leaders into office?  It wasn’t Hezbollah or Hamas.

The Doha summit will be engineered to fail like others before it. The future of Mahmoud Abbas is on life support and entirely dependent on the largesse from Washington, so of course he will posture about boycotting the summit if Hamas is invited.  It is no surprise that Hamas have not been invited.  They presence would mean withdrawal of support from Washington.
The recent revelation that Israel were plotting to assassinate Turkish leader, Erdogan is only going to make things more complicated.
France is only pro-Israel because Sarkozy wants to court the Jewish vote. The same goes for Belgium, Sweden, Britain, Italy and the Netherlands.  All still support Israel, regardless of anything Israel does.  That is the way it has always been.

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By Shenonymous, March 31, 2009 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Shingo for bringing this article to our attention.  It is not something we should just let fall off the edge of consciousness.  Truth or trooth?  There is a similar dynamic in religion as there is in politics.  How is the world to find out?  Each side makes claims and no one can verify what either side says.  The rest of the world, which includes everyone outside of Israel and Gaza, must rest on speculation only.  How can one determine justice let alone reality?  Beliefs are based what one wants to believe constructed from a particular sympathy and set of “facts” one wants to accept from a myriad of all facts available.  The nine Israeli human rights organizations might be detached emotionally and be able to assess what happened with a clear head, but if they are Israeli can they honestly be trusted to be impartial? 

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza has fervent involvement and therefore also cannot give a trustworthy and reliable account. Browsing their website shows how connected emotionally the PCHR is to the Palestinians.  Who in the world is neutral enough to make an unbiased, unprejudiced evaluation.  The IDF who exonerated the soldiers has no detached mechanism for evaluation of its conclusions.  Note:  CommonDreams ran the story as a forum article.  TD has not….yet?

Here are some paragraphs from “The Palestine Chronicle” on 3/29/09 from the article Sudan’s al-Bashir Attends Arab Meet; Hamas Not Invited.  These are written by Arabs for the Arab world.  Yet for westerners it is very telling that all is not well among the Arabs.  It is not just western societies who are having intranational conflicts.

“The leaders of Egypt and Saudi Arabia say that Iran is key to the strength of Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian territories - groups which refuse to renounce armed action in the historic Arab conflict with Israel.

The Doha summit is still a battleground between the emerging de facto alliance between Qatar, Syria and Iran on one side, and the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians on the other,” Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi opposition figure, said.
Iran and Syria back the populist view in the Arab world that the policies of Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate responses to Israel, which rejects returning Arab lands it seized in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

Underlining the discord has been the decision by Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, not to attend, instead sending a low-level delegation.

In a bid to ensure attendance by other Arab leaders, Qatar had said that neither Iran nor Hamas had been invited to attend.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president and leader of the Fatah group, had threatened to join Mubarak in boycotting the summit if Hamas was invited.”

Since there is so much discord and hostility over the Gaza war, it is important to notice along with the USA, Canada, surprisingly China, and even in the face of rising anti-Semitism from its growing Muslim population, France is still pro-Israel under the leadership of Sarkozy, as well as Belgium, Sweden, Britain, Italy and the Netherlands.  All still support Israel, against criticism.  It seems significant that Hamas was not invited to the Arab conference.

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By Shingo, March 30, 2009 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

So much for Israel’s so called independent investigation.  As always, it decides it is innocent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/world/middleeast/ 31mideast.html?_r=1&hp;

What a surprise!!

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By Night-Gaunt, March 26, 2009 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

Cyrena you tout to me the fact that pres. Obama is a “Constitutional scholar” which I must admit is meaning less and less in this country. Just as that oath they take to protect said Constitution (with the Bill of Rights) that each president and other members of our gov’t take seems to be used to get around said documents instead of upholding them. That includes the 95 year Drug War, and the occupation of Iraq to Gay marriage are connected to it.

“Rendition” and extraordinary rendition are still in place. Rendition started under Clinton was abduction of people within the USA and its properties and later expanded under G.W. Bush to an international scope, where the ‘extraordinary’ part comes in. Taken in violation of the Bill of Rights and Constitution and still are. Gitmo may be closed down but it just is moving to Bagram AFB which is expanding (hold 600 to increase by 200) and is without scrutiny. Obama is changing the language but not the practices of our gov’t involved in such in relation to the GWOT and “unlawful combatants” too get a name change but the important parts concerning unlawful (international law we are a party to) actions remains. See what I mean? What Shakespear meant by, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet,” is still a rose. Un-lawful, contemptuous, un-Constitutional actions are still that under different labels! Calling a murder a ‘neutralization process’ or ‘pacification’ does not change what is done at all. Just one of those malignant euphemisms used to hide atrocities our gov’t does in our name every day with our money for us and them. Yes in some way we too benefit from their acts of piracy and brigandage. Like the Bible, the Constitution and Bill of Rights needs to be read and studied and interpreted by all who believe in them and even those, like myself, who don’t (concerning the Bible et al for myself) just so one can be clear on it. We don’t need Bible scholars to define them for us anymore than for the Constitution/Bill of Rights. They can help but we need to understand it for ourselves. The sooner the better. Have an idea of our history and how our founders were very different men and not all agreed with them or their Federalism. The Confederal period was from 1776-1789 and we have been in the Federal Period since. Though during the last 30 years we have been moving into a Fascist-Theocratic Proto-stage as I see it. We are not out of it yet. The Dominionists are still at work to continue our transformation from tattered republic to corporate theocracy. We shall see as to whether president Obama continues the transformation away from a republic toward a true empire or not. So far it doesn’t look encouraging to me.

Cyrena, please look beyond the words and study deeds and who Obama is surrounding himself with and what exactly they are doing and not doing. Words are important for we use them as the yardstick to measure their deeds. For me you can only read the words and compare them for consistency. Just as I must for any other person on this or any other blog.

We are still in Iraq (leaving a garrison force of combat troops also being renamed) is a violation of so many laws and morality. Increasing the killing of Afghanis by US forces is no better. US troops are still tasked for work within the USA for crowd control and to reestablish order too. I still wait but I warned those on Smirking Chimp and Op Ed News and I still say cautious skepticism is a virtue. He must prove to us what he says is true and right.

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By Shingo, March 25, 2009 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Part 1 of 2

Your first reaction is to imply that anything not right wing is either factually flawed or false.  This is a typical right wing slander that maligns anyone who is not right wing.  The irony of course is that we’ve just endured 8 years of aq right wing president who’s lies were too numerous to mention.

It is also a right wing distortion that a story has to be fair and balanced to be credible.  This is a false argument.  Some stories do not have a counter argument of equal weight the primary message.  This began with you asking for evidence or links or war crimes committed by the US military and sanctioned by the government.

Your argument is that because right wing sources are not reporting this, there is no story.  You labeled my links as leftist propaganda without citing evidence to the contrary, even when they were supported by a right wing and moderate news links.
The thesis you have been trying to put forth that WE are better and different to the Arab world, because we respect laws and hold those guilty of crimes, accountable.  I have just demonstrated that this is a false claim.

You have repeatedly condemned needless slaughter by Islamic Terrorist groups, but you fully support needless slaughter by Israel.  That makes you a hypocrite.  It’s not name calling, it is what it is.

I have demonstrated that Israelis carry out investigations for the good of the public, but that they are fundamentally flawed, because is the atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers were in accordance with the orders they were given by their command, they will be fond innocent of wrong doing.
For example, Haartez reports that IDF soldiers ordered to shoot at Gaza rescuers,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072830.html
Now this is surely a war crimes in anyone’s language, but is the t IDF soldiers received these orders from the military command, then they will either be found innocent or scapegoated.  The people who gave the orders will never face justice.

The reason Bush were blind sided on 911 is because he was too dumb to pay any attention to the dozens of warnings we received from around the world.  He was too disinterested in the memo he received in august of 2001 to pay any attention.  Bush has always been a spoiled frat house boy who had no concept of responsibility, which is why he could never bring himself to admit his mistakes.

The Shah was a murderous dictator we put in power.  We were too arrogant to care about the resentment the Iranian public had for overthrowing Iran’s government in 1953.  What happens in Iran is Iran’s business anyway, not ours.

Saddam only invaded Kuwait because our ambassador to Iraq, April Glasby, gave him the green light to go ahead an do so.

Mullahs and Amadinehjad have made no threats of aggression towards anyone.

What evidence do you have that a missile will be launched from a container ship off our coast? Who will do it and why?

Who is practicing setting up scuds for launching from Container ships for the last three years?  Come on Trithoverlies.  You’re the man who insists on evidence and proof.  Where did you get that information? Surely you have proof, or are you indeed a radical paranoid wingnut who listens to right wing talks shows where they make this stuff up?

Yes, we must change our attitude and take their threats seriously. We are no longer the only country in the world that matters,  We are part of a world alongside other countries that have their own interests to consider.  We can’t go on assuming that we are always right and that no other state has any rights.

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By Shingo, March 25, 2009 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Part 2 of 2

AlQeada has nothing to do with Hezbollah.  Hezbollah has never attacked us.  They are no threat to us.  Hezbollah are part of the Lebanese government.  They are a nationalist political group that were crated when Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon for 18 years, killing 17,000 people.  Hezbollah were the only group with courage to take up arms and resist the occupation.  Hezbollah have never operated outside the borders of Lebanon.

The 241 Marines were killed in response to our shelling of Southern Lebanon.  Those marines would have been safe if they weren’t in a military base in Lebanon.  We had no business putting a base in that country and Ronald Reagan was wise enough to realize that.

Of course, our Navy shot down an Iranian airline plane in Iranian air space killing all 296 on board.  We didn’t even apologise and Iran didn’t even retaliate.  What does that tell you Trith?  Who are the real extremists?

No you are perfectly happy with atrocities being committed when it is Arabs and Muslims being killed.
What about the fact that we supported Saddam in a war against Iran, that killed a million people? Did Iran retaliate?  No.

But here you are, remembering only the people that matter in your mind.  Terry Waite lived to tell of his ordeal, unlike those who have died in custody in Abu Graib and Gitmo. You say you are tired of the memorials that are forgotten, yet you have never bothered to think of the people in the Middle East that have died at our hands.  That about the half million Iraqi children that died because of our blockade of Iraq? What about the million Iraqis who have died because of our illegal attack and invasion of Iran?

They jut don’t matter to you, do they?  Is it because they have brown faces and aren’t Christians Trith?
You are not a Christian Trith.  You belong to a cult that has brainwashed you into believe is a distorted and perverted interpretation of Christianity. If Jesus does return, he will surely look upon you as an abomination on your day of judgement.

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By Trithoverlies, March 25, 2009 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

The Washington Post report I found to be leaning to the liberal side with not enough counter balance; but yes upon reading the other peices I felt they were way over the line to the left now maybe you don’t thinks so that is your right but this is a personal opinion as I said so please stop putting words in my mouth I said they lean way to the left now I also said that the Wahington Post peice did atleast try to balance the material in My opinion. Now you can take exception to my opinion but please do not tell me that I should not have an opinion that would be like the Judgment of Shingo calling me wacked out nut job and such. We have fought wars so you and I could voice our opinion so please understand that in MY personal opinion the articles Shingo named were leftist propaganda all except the Post peice which I said leand to the liberal side and thus did not fully explore all sides of the issue.
    You can think diferanty if you want to that is your right what I have been trying to do is called free speach and I explained my postion based on my opinion rather than name calling.  Shingo is trying to deny me the right to a personal opinion that differs from his or hers. I guess that you also believe my opinion is wrong atleast you did it civilly and I thank you for that.
    We all have a world view mine is a Christ centered view now that doesn’t mean that I always follow it. I am human and am prone to go my own way just as our all people I believe in Life but I also condemn needless slaughter as is practiced by the Islamic Terrorist groups they don’t care if their own people are maimed and killed and if you do not believe in the exact way they do you are fair game.
    The Israelis are investigating the alligations while Hamas refuses to even admitt they committed any attrocities. Americans including Pres. Goerge W. Bush were blind sided agian on 911 because the State Department and our Inteligence Agencies missed the calls, why because they refuse to believe in pure unadulterated Evil. The Ayatollah Khomeini said he was going to lead a Islamic revolt two years before the shaws Government fell, we thought he was blowing smoke, for two years Sadam said he was going to invade Kuwait we thought he was just venting steam until he did it. The Mullahs and Amahenajad all are speaking plainly but again we are intrepreting it as Hype. Well when the First Missle is launched from a container ship off our coast it will be to late to change you mind. They have been practicing setting up scuds for launching from Containerships for the last three years. We must change our attitutde and take their threats seriously. The same is true of AlQeada, and Hezbollah which has been at war with us since their inceptions remember 241 Marines, remember 17 dead Embassy Employees, remember Terry Waite, remember Navy Diver Robert Steadham, or Daniel Pearl, and Nicholas Berg, excetra…excetra. I am tired of the memorials that are so quickly forgotten we are at War and we must begin to realize this is a war of attrition by a enemy that is willing to use any means at its disposal to kill us! This is not a police or crime problem this is a War with some where between 170 million and 340 million Hostiles spread all over the planet. I again will state the largest precentage of muslims are not in this group they want to live and let live.
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shingo, March 25, 2009 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

The Washington Post is right wing conservative through and through. It leans right wing end of story.  Like I said, only a radical right win ideologue would regard it as liberal in anywway, shape, or form.

I’d be curious to know whether you consider Fox News liberal as well.

I welcome alternative points of view.  If you have read my debates with Inherit the Wind, you will notice that we largely disagree, but have respect for one another’s opinions.  I have contempt for argument based on ignorance and ideology. 

It’s interesting that you should brig up the Constitution, a document that Bush referred to as nothing but a goddamn piece of paper, but with regard to free speech, I am not advocating that you be silenced of prevented from voicing your opinion.  Knock yourself out, but don’t complain that I am not being nice to you, because free speech allows me to respond however I choose.

I’m not just calling you names, I am calling it as I see it.  You display all the traits of racist, a biggot and an extreme right wing, evangelical ideologue.  If you want to stop being referred to as an evangelical right wing extremist, then stop behaving like one.

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By cyrena, March 25, 2009 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

“Did you find factual errors before in these publications you could directly attribute to the publication’s overall ‘slant’ to you? Being ‘left’ isn’t anymore monolithic than being ‘right’ especially when the field is so much larger and more complex than that.”

So true, so true here Night-Gaunt. It is far more complex than what the old timers seem to think.
Based on that, I’m not sure why you are suggesting this…

“Obama will be carrying on the un-Constitutional actions of his predecessors just under a different name. [Sound familiar?] He is still allowing the criminals of Wall Street to run the ‘repair’ of our economy. We have yet to see how the Palestinians will fair with him considering his relationship with Israel is the same as previous administrations. Where is that change? Maybe John Ashcroft is right when he said the our new president is Bush spelled O-B-A-M-A. Now why is he so sure about that?”
How do you know that Obama’s relationship with Israel will be the same as previous admins? I would argue that you don’t know what he will do in terms of Israel, because it obviously has to be something different, and Obama isn’t showing that part of his hand for obvious reasons. Do you REALLY believe that Barack Obama could have won the election if he’d campaigned on an ANTI-Israel platform?
I would ask only that you accept the reality of the political strength of the Israel Lobby, and understand that if we’re to keep Ob ama ‘safe’ to do what we (in the USA) hired him to do, we need to know that he isn’t going to ‘announce’ any actions against Israel. In fact, I’d say he’s already making things pretty clear in that he will allow for the INTERNATIONAL Legal system to do that work, because that’s the only way it will be effective.
I have the same question in terms of your statement that Obama is ‘continuing the UN-Constitutional practices of the previous Administration. Can you please specifiy what those UN-Constitutional things are? I ask because of course I know (as does President Obama, Professor of CONSTITUTIONAL LAW ) what is ‘constitutional’ and what is NOT, and I know that for the past 2 months and 5 days, the new administration has been busting their asses to overturn the UN-Constitutional practices of the former regime. I’m tired of listing those things at this point, though I was considering working up a template that I could post everytime someone makes a similar comment suggesting this. (Folkliar is our primary critter here, who likes to claim that Obama is following the Bushite policy, depite the obvious reality that he is changing it as rapidly as anyone could possibly expect..including me).
So everytime I read these comments, I always hope that the author will back them up, but somehow that never happens. Still, it’s scary to realize that so many Americans don’t seem to have a clue about so much of what is really important. So when you say he’s continuing UN-Constitutional practices, and anyone who actually KNOWS what Constitutional Law IS, knows that he’s doing the OPPOSITE, I figure it would be a helpful experience for those confused people to actually do the research that will prove their claim. So, can you help us out with that? In other words, exactly WHAT practices is he continuing that you claim to be ‘unconstitutional’?

As for anything that ASHCROFT has to say, I can’t believe you actually quoted HIM!! He’s as much a right-wing criminal as all of the others, and has had his own troubles with practices that are UN-constitutional back when he was a sorry ass Attorney General.

How is he so sure you ask? Ha! He ISN’T!!

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By Night-Gaunt, March 25, 2009 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

Ah, Truthoverlies, you attack and dismiss on subjects sight unseen. I read both articles and found one to be factually based and the other a personal analysis of pres. Obama’s speech last night (3/24/2009) so what were their problems? Did you find factual errors before in these publications you could directly attribute to the publication’s overall ‘slant’ to you? Being ‘left’ isn’t anymore monolithic than being ‘right’ especially when the field is so much larger and more complex than that.

I would dare say I would read an article in “Little Green Footballs” or “American Renaissance” with skepticism but not automatically dismiss them out of hand as you imperiously did with the “New York Times.” If I found errors of a major kind I would try to tell them & anyone else who may read them for another point of view. It is certainly your right but it is ours to call you on it too when you give no examples.

Obama will be carrying on the un-Constitutional actions of his predecessors just under a different name. [Sound familiar?] He is still allowing the criminals of Wall Street to run the ‘repair’ of our economy. We have yet to see how the Palestinians will fair with him considering his relationship with Israel is the same as previous administrations. Where is that change? Maybe John Ashcroft is right when he said the our new president is Bush spelled O-B-A-M-A. Now why is he so sure about that?

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By Trithoverlies, March 25, 2009 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

Shingo,
The Washington Post I said leans toward the liberal side on issues not that it is a leftist paper so before you criticize read the full sentence and stop reading only what you want to read into a sentence. You continue to show your contempt and arrogance toward any other veiw but your own which is not inline with the tennants of our Constitution remember Freedom of Speach. So why call other people namesd rather than be civil is it because you have an inferiority complex and fill that name calling actually enhances your arguments well it does not. So quite the name calling say that you completely disagree with me, I have no problem with that; but this continued childish name calling does not make for constructive arguments. You may continue it and show others that you are more close minded; but it does not make you the big person it tends to show the rudeness and ugliness of your far left leaning. There are rules we should all strive for and one is respect the other persons right to their opinion even when you disagree. We are equal and therefore everytime you point one finger at me and call me names you are pointing three toward yourself. Think about that next time you choose to go off on tantrum of name calling like some playground bully.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Every time you stoop to name calling you only end up hurting your own arguements so wise up. Salome, Shalom, Peace.

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By Leefeller, March 25, 2009 at 2:18 am Link to this comment

May I suggest rights are really privileges and can be taken away at anytime by the Plutocracy or people in power if you do not believe in the first. Thank you George Carlin, RIP.

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By Shingo, March 24, 2009 at 10:40 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

You prove yet again what a shill and a partisan hack you are.

No one who comes from this planet, would regard the Washington Post as leftist liberal, or socialist. Timesonline is politicalyl in the middle and the Think Progress link provides a video clip of an admission from Bush himself saying that he authorized torture. But Bush is a liar I agree, so perhaps we shouldn’t believe that either.

You want conservative news sources? Fine:

Conscience of a Conservative
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09rosen.html

Bloodless
http://www.amconmag.com/blog/

Yes you HAVE condoned violence, namely against Arab Muslims, because in your right wing mind, all terrorists are Muslims. Radical Zionist and radical Christians could ever ht terrorists in your eyes.
Am I right?

Maybe you don’t blow blow up buildings, but Israel military does and you support them 100%.  Those who pilot F-16 panes 30,000 feet up in the air from where they can safely bomb a defenseless population don’t need a suicide vest.  They can blow up as many buses and Malls as they like and then come home and night and tell their families about it.

You might not hold a gun to anyones head and tell them to convert or die, but you support those who kill those belonging to a religion other than their own.

Where do you get your statistics proving that the largest number of suicide bombers are upper middle class?  Did you know that 90% of suicide attacks are linked not to religion but territorial disputes and occupation? And you know what, that is a fact that has been proven by a study conducted with the partial funding of the US DOD.

War crimes are war crimes.  They didn’t all have to be a brazen as those to have been carried out by Hitler or Nazi Germany to be war crimes.  There is no concept or partial theft or partial murder,  You either steal something or kill someone or you don’t.  The same goes for war crimes.  The Bush administration carried out war crimes and ordered American troops to commit war crimes on their behalf.
I don’t agree with what Ward Churchill says, but he did not say that 3000 Americans deserved to die, he said that according to the standard we impose on other countries, those 3000 Americans were legitimate targets because there were intelligence offices in those buildings.  You see, you are so used to using lies and distortions, you can’t even get the story straight.

Christian fundamentalists like you will dismiss any evidence that does no support your radial ideology as left wing propaganda, even when it comes from right wing sources.  Christian fundamentalists like you will attack your political opponents as not being patriotic and insist that we that ethics country.  When your idols like George Bush are criticized, you will label the critics as traitors,  yet when guys like Rush Limbaugh and others hope that Obama will fail, you call that free speech.

I am not surprised that you belong to the fringe element (20%) who like Bush. Of course, you realize that it makes you an extremist and a radical.  Even biggots and Islamaphobes can have Muslim friends.  I have Jewish friends who are opposed to Israel’s policies and people like yourself would refer tot them as self hating Jews.

You are an ignoramus and a radial fundamentalist.  It’s lucky for all of us that you belong to such a fringe element in this country or we would be a Christian version of the Taliban.

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By Trithoverlies, March 24, 2009 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous’
Thank you for the coments about arguing for Ideas rather than questioning ones character. We can disagree on many things but I will never treaten are verbably abuse some one because they have a differant oppinion there is the right to Free Speach in this country and until that right is taken away I will fight to my death for you to speak your point of view whether it agrees with mine or not you have the right to voice your opinion.  Again Thank You for deffending my right to voice my opinion and I have checked Shingo’s web sites and find all but one to be far left, only the Washington Post has any real validity and even they lean to the liberal side. I make no bones about my religeous beliefs, but I also again believe that the constitution gives all religions the same rights and protection here.
I am also conservative in my upbringing and will make no bones about that either. We all fall on one side more than the other but again that is what made America. Let Freedom Ring, let free speach continue to be worth fighting for. God Bless our troops most are the finest example of America, though as in every part of our society there are bad apples, the majority do not fall in that category.
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Salome, and Shalom

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By Trithoverlies, March 24, 2009 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

Shingo number one every site you mentioned is either leftist liberal or socialist propaganda so I will believe them about as far as the trash can. And Second I have never condoned violence agianst any group but terrorist Like Hamas Hezbollah, the Alaqsa Martyrs brigade Islamic Jehad the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Quada, Radical Shi’ite, Wahabism, and the Talihban. These are all radical Islamic groups with one goal destruction of Civilization and you can deny it all you want but the Truth is the Truth. What is more hipocritical than your judging me based on your bad research on Christianity Yes I believe in Christ Jesus and I tell others but I do not blow up buildings, I will not strap on a suicide vest and blow myself up on a Bus or in the market or Mall, I will not hold a gun to your head and tell you to convert are die. Most Muslims will not do so either but it is interesting the the largest number of suicide bombers are not poor but upper middle class, and the leaders almost to a man come from wealth. As for War crimes there are those that believe we blew up are own people and that Pres. Bush is more evil than Adolph Hitler and that American service men are no better than the S.S. of Nazi Germany to. So what there have always been those out of touch with reality some even believe that Sec. Seward was involved with the plot to assasinate Lincoln and that L.B. Johnson was involved in the assasination of J.F.K. but that is just like Ward Churchill saying the nearly 3000 Americans that lost their lives on 911 deserved to die, so I will take all the leftist propaganda with a grain of salt. As for you and I we are diametrically opposed to one another that is true; but where you think only the worst of our Government I try to keep an open mind. But when you pull out the web sites you just named and the quote you used well I know exactly where you are comming from and of those site only one has any ligetamacy that is the Washington Post even though it generally leans left it still tries to look at both sides of an issue but fells all to often. You will believe the worst because you Hate Bush well I do like the man but I do not have a poster of him any where in my house but I don’t have a poster of Obama either because I will with hold my opinion for now on him. As for being a biggot, and Islamaphobe sorry I have many muslim friends, and Jewish friends,  Native American Friends, and Friend in all nationilities. I also have Iranian friends so you can call me all the names you want but that doesn’t make them true it only shows a judgmental craseness on your part.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Salome.

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By Shingo, March 24, 2009 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

There is ample proof if you bother to look.  Right wing extremists like yourself, who probably still have a cardboard cut-out of Bush in his bedroom (care of Ted Haggard and his Jesus camp) pretend that there is never any proof of the Bush administrations complicity.

In any case, here is just a taste:

Bush: I Personally Authorized Torture Of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/11/bush-authorized-torture/

The torture tape fingering Bush as a war criminal
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece

Bush defends torture
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/oct2007/bush-o06.shtml

FBI E-Mail Says Bush Authorized Abuse of Iraqi Detainees
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/oct2007/bush-o06.shtml

Karspinski, the general in charge, maintains that torture was encouraged from above.  The guy who ran Gitmo, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, was sent to Abu Graib with instructions to Gitmoize the place.

Abu Ghraib Tactics Were First Used at Guantanamo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380_pf.html

Why wasn’t he punished?

Is that enough proof for you or are there still too many holes in this case for your liking?  It’s so ironic how someone who bases his entire version of reality on faith demands evidence when he hears something that undermines his own beliefs.

I could care less if you forgive me for the name calling.  I call it as i see it.  As I recall, you accused those on the left and favoring terrorists over Jews.

My comments about your form of Christianity have nothing to do with any personal hurt in my.  I happen to despise hypocrites, bigots, xenophobes, Islamophobes, racists and religious extremists of any persuasion.

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By Trithoverlies, March 24, 2009 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

Shingo
Following whose orders can you show me direct proof of that number one , number two even the general that was incharge of that detention center lost her job so your argument seems to be full of holes about the facts. A general that loses control has lost the respect of her people and any officer that was possibly involved is on a fast tract to nowhere, and soon will be booted from the service in the next reduction in forces. A loss of ones career is a serious result of an investigation that said they lost control this stain goes on their permenant records and is given to each probable employer after their military service they will never live it down which is also a serious consequence of their actions or inactions.
Whether we agree or disagree with one another the other we should act like adults and keep it Civil. I forgive you for the name calling so lets agree to diagree and be adults and not act like those in the playpen of our House of Representatives. We as adults can be outraaged at something without a bunch of name calling, and I know that your coments about my form of Christianity come from some deep personal hurt in your life probably caused by some one calling themself a christian and you didn’t know that just because someone calls themself that doesn’t mean they are one.  We all have sin in our lives and some of us will admitt this while others want so please forgive me if I wrongly offended you because of my personal relationship with Christ Jesus.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Not so fast Shingo.  First of all I have no problem whatsoever with your or anyone’s freedom of speech and right to respond, or not to respond!  Getting hot under the collar because accountability is requested seems to be working in your quarters.  It is too too easy to take the scornful and domineering attitude.  The response would be enough, that is, sufficient, if and only if all the questions were asked that were inserted in the response to Trithoverlies.  That remains to be seen.  All of the links you provided is greatly appreciated!  Rest assured there is no coyness nor pedanticism being played here.  I simply detest overt attacks on people’s character rather than their ideas.  Of course I can google anything for which I have a question, however, you posted the criticism therefore it is your responsibility to back up what you say, unless you don’t care, which, if that is the case, you are crassly sounding off.  You say Israel “routinely” ignored international law, if so, then you should have no trouble giving one example of that.  I would agree that if they sanction murder, Israel obviously would not consider it a crime.  But before making a blatant statement some evidence ought to be offered.  Really sorry you think you are above giving some reliable facts to my innocuous questions to your allegations.  Tootsies a bit warm are they? 

She asks:>> Exactly why were the journalists banned from Gaza?  Shingo answers, “Exactly why depends on who you ask, but a strong case can be made that it was to prevent coverage of what they weer[sic] doing in Gaza and thus control the message.”  Giving only one side stacks the deck and no objectivity is obtained. How can anyone be believed if only one side is given?  If it is a strong case, then it should be easy to give some details to it!

She asks:>> Where do the facts come from that no IDF soldier was convicted of a war crime?
Shingo answers: I didn’t say that.  I asked one of the others posters to name any IDF troops who have ever been convicted of crimes by Israeli tribunal.

Well, what shall we make from this statement of yours?  “Military investigations in Israel are no different to those in this country.  They amount to little more than a sideshow for the public.  Name one IDF soldier who has been convicted of war crimes.  Even Ariel Sharon, who was regarded as a war criminal in Israel, never faced charges.”

So you are charging someone else, another poster for putting words into your mouth?  Hmmmmm.  Now that is interesting.  Apparently the other poster(s) didn’t come up with any example so you assumed righteousness?
Shingo says, “Get real Shenonymous.”  The point is Shingo, is that you think you can just say stuff, make all kinds of reckless accusations without any firm grounds like a lot of other posters and walk away biff bam thank you mam, and you know what, you just crap off at the mouth.  Mannnn, youse is a piece of work.

What you say about politicians is pure accusational rhetoric. 

What you say about Trithoverlies is also pure verbal garbage.  Maybe he has a diametrically opposed view to the world than you, but you have no entitlement to call him names.  Even if he is completely wrong, that does not make you right!  Who is acting holier than thou now? 

One final thing:  From your link the following statement was copied:  The [UN] experts also noted reports that Hamas had committed other abuses. They said Hamas had been unwilling to investigate the allegations.
The report called for Israel to investigate human rights abuses that occurred during the conflict.

Last week Israel’s military ordered a criminal inquiry into published reports from soldiers that some troops had knowingly killed Palestinian civilians, including children.

Why didn’t you include this in your diatribe?

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By Shingo, March 23, 2009 at 10:53 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Do us all a favor and refrain from your biblical references and preching, because if any of the other posters here a re like me, they skip all that crap and sift through your nonsense to see if there is a cogent argument anywhere to be found.

The America several soldiers serving time for mistreatment of Iraqi’s were sacrificial lambs.  Those at Abu Graib were following orders, but because the government has the power to impose secrecy laws and control the judiciary, those that issued the orders are never brought to justice.

Even with the overwhelming evidence that the Bush a administration sanctioned torture and even assassination, the political elite look after their own.  There is no stomach in this country to follow through on criminal charged against former high officials.  Washington is still bruised over the Nixon scandal and doesn’t want to go there.

The system does not work, beasue it’s broken.  When Nixon said that it’s not illegal when the president does it sparked incredibility in this country, but decades later, it has become the status quo.  So yes, there will show trials put on or the public once in a while, to maintain the facade of justice, but those truly responsible remain free.

The same goes for Israel.  There might be some Israeli soldiers doing time, but those who gave the orders are still free.

one more thing Trith, you may believe that your heart is a mistery to the world, but you are all to obvious even though you don’t realize it.  You have repeatedly revealed your racism and hatred of men of particular religions and race.  You have revealed that you regard the Jewish people as a people that you and your fellow cultists can exploit to hasten the Rapture, while pretending to be concerned for their wellbeing.

Perhaps only Christ will Judge the Living and the dead, but I am confident that he will have little or no time for hypocrites like you.

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By Shingo, March 23, 2009 at 10:40 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Why are you asking me what Israel’s laws are?  I’m sure you can Google them if you are that interested.

My point is that Israel has routinely ignored international law and in prior cases where IDF soldiers have faced charges of improper conduct, they were acquitted o the grounds that they were not breaking any Israeli laws or rules of engagement. 

In other words, if the State of Israel sanctions murder, then they obviously don’t consider it a crime.

A few quick answer to your seemingly innocuous questions:

>> Exactly why were the journalists banned from Gaza?

Exactly why depends on who you ask, but a strong case can be made that it was to prevent coverage of what they weer doing in Gaza and thus control the message.

>> Where do the facts come from that no IDF soldier was convicted of a war crime?

I didn’t say that.  I asked one of the others posters to name any IDF troops who have ever been convicted of crimes by Israeli tribunal.

>> Who in Israel regarded Sharon a war criminal?

Following the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, Sharon was considered a war criminal in Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/1390979.stm

>> Were charges ever filed?

Yes.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-26014577_ITM

>> Accusations are not enough.  They never are!

Get real Shenonymous.  Even Sharon doesn’t deny the role he played in the massacre.

Politicians are rarely made to face justice.  That is the reality.  No matter what crimes they committed, Cheney et al will never face charges at the Hague.

In the end, there is no difference between the way it is done in the Arab world, and here.  Heads of state are never guilty simply because no one is in any position to impose such laws, and any state that does risks being scrutinized for it’s own sins.

Trithoverlies, accused those of us who disagree with him as being terrorist lovers.  That kind of bile deserves a severer response.  Trithoverlies, has demonstrated that he is an evangelical fanatic.  His refusal to respond to my many inquiries about his theories on the Rapture and the significance of Israel in bringing it about is proof enough that he is indeed among the flock who see the Jews as a carrot to lure Jesus back to Earth.  Our holier than though Christian colleague is just to much of a coward to admit it. His ad hominem attack on the “left” that “continues to favor the terrorist over the Jew” is contemptible and conclusive evidence that he is right wing.

>> If Israel “clearly” violated rules of law, cite them. What rule of law was broken by whom and when? 
Are you just playing coy Shenenymous or being pedantic?

U.N. reports say Israel targeted civilians in Gaza
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE52M6G220090323?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews
Israel used boy as human shield, says UN report
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090323.wunisraelreport0323/BNStory/International/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20090323.wunisraelreport0323
IDF soldiers ordered to shoot at Gaza rescuers
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072830.html
Gaza war crime claims gather pace as more troops speak out
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/israel-palestinian-territories-war-crimes

Is that enough for you?

>> A lot was packed in that response to Trithoverlies and it appears to be all allegations or personal opinion.  Prove me wrong.  Do we have to ask what freedom of speech really means?

When I last checked,  freedom of speech means I have the right to respond, or do you have a problem with that?

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By Trithoverlies, March 23, 2009 at 10:38 pm Link to this comment

Shenonimous,
  The problem is what causes greed and the want of power it is selfish Pride without which there would be no Greed or lust for power. It is pride which caught King David and placed him looking upon a woman bathing on the roof of her house this led to lust which lead to power and Adultery, which then lead to plotting the murder of the Husband so it still comes down to PRIDE. Pride as I said is the root cause of all sin and it is what also causes every crime that is committed on this planet. Do you think that the leaders of A.I.G. didn’t start out with a prideful hearts which lead them to greed,and the risk to make more money quickly and get out while the getting was good pride causes greed, pride causes a lust for power, Pride causes most if not all spousal abuse, pride causes rape, pride causes theft, pride causes murder remember Cains reason for killing his brother Abel was it not the loss of face because his sacrifice was not acceptable. PRIDE is the down fall of man it is what lead Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit, it was what lead the whole earth into terrorism and all manners of perversity, and follie, it is what leads men to plan and committ all maner of EVIL in this world. It is Pride that leads to a fall.
    As to Shingo who said the bologna about the investigations into possible misstreatment of Palestinians. You might be surprised to know that in America several soldiers are serving time for mistreatment of Iraqi’s and several others are about to stand trial for the murder of one prisoner so stop lying to yourself. The system those work here more often then not, and the same is true in Israel there are soldiers from the Lebonese Invasion in the 1980’s serving life sentences for an autrocity they committed against several Lebonese men. There are several soldier serving prison terms for the murder of one civilian in Lebonon in the last invasion so to say that nothing is done is the hieght of pride and foolishness on your part.
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. the second paragraph is not to you Shenonimous sorry I had to add it. To Shingo whether I am or am not a Christian is not for you to judge so please in the future remember that only Christ will Judge the Living and the dead so I will leave it up to Him who knows my heart not you.

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

Shingo, while occasionally I do, obviously I don’t always agree with Trithoverlies and OzarkMichael on what they say.  Saying that, I offer my apologies for belittling what is Trith’s opinion for what are the root causes of war. At my chagrin I see I fell into the very trap I fault others for.  Character assassination is uncalled for at any time, and particularly if an effective argument is to be made!  While I can’t erase a TD post, I can express my regret without changing my view.  It takes all kinds to make up the world and because someone has a different view is no reason to berate them or call names.  Avoiding the use of the word “you” in the nominative case I’ve heard goes a long way to offering convincing differences of opinion.

From a couple of posts, Shingo, if I may ask, what is the Rule of Law and how is it interpreted by Israel?  Exactly why were the journalists banned from Gaza?  Where do the facts come from that no IDF soldier was convicted of a war crime?  Who in Israel regarded Sharon a war criminal?  Were charges ever filed?  Accusations are not enough.  They never are!  Maybe that is the way it is done in the Arab world, but not here!  Has Hamas ever been investigated for charges of abuse of Palestinians?  How does asking that question suggest some one is a right wing evangelical fanatic?  If everyone knows what the IDF is like when investigating itself, what are Hamas or Hezbollah like when they investigate their own, or maybe they don’t even investigate?  Are they exempt?  If so, why?  If Israel “clearly” violated rules of law, cite them. What rule of law was broken by whom and when? 

A lot was packed in that response to Trithoverlies and it appears to be all allegations or personal opinion.  Prove me wrong.  Do we have to ask what freedom of speech really means?

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By Leefeller, March 23, 2009 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

This reminds me of the kids game “telephone” in reverse?

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2 (FYI to Shingo:  The letter was written to Chirac, not Sarkozy)
As one of the commenters of the French newspaper said, meanness and smallness d’spirit.  I believe a kind of intoxication occurs without any alcohol involved whenever anything verges on the slightest criticism of Obama regardless of how close lies or truths lie at the foundation of the outcry.  But let’s take a look at the entire article which is roughly translated.

The very brief newspaper article:  in French for verité
Confidentiel : Barack Obama_a écrit à Jacques Chirac
19/03/2009 | Mise à jour : 09:14 | Commentaires 84 | Ajouter à ma sélection - Retrouvez tous les confidentiels de la rédaction du Figaro.
Barack Obama a écrit à Jacques Chirac
Le président américain vient d’adresser une lettre «très sympathique » à Jacques Chirac, selon l’expression de ce dernier. «Je suis certain que nous pourrons au cours des quatre années à venir collaborer ensemble dans un esprit de paix et d’amitié afin de construire un monde plus sûr» , écrit le successeur de George W. Bush au prédécesseur de Nicolas Sarkozy. En évoquant le mot de « paix», Obama rend un hommage implicite à l’action de l’ancien président français qui s’était opposé à la guerre en Irak. Une intervention américaine contre laquelle le futur président américain s’était opposé comme sénateur, lors du vote au Congrès.

In English:
Confidential: Barack Obama_a written in Jacques Chirac 19/03/2009 | Update: 09:14 | Comments 84 | To add to my selection Find all confidential drafting of the Barber. Barack Obama wrote in Jacques Chirac The US president comes d’ to very address a letter “sympathetic nerve” to Jacques Chirac, according to the expression of this last. “I am certain that we will be able during the four years to come to collaborate together in a spirit of peace and friendship in order to build a surer world”, writes the successor of George W. Bush to the predecessor of Nicolas Sarkozy. While evoking the word of “peace”, Obama pays a homage implicit to the action of the former French president who was opposed to the war in Iraq.  (Note:  both men also share their opposition to the Iraq war, which started exactly five years ago, on March 20, 2003. An American intervention against which the future US president was opposed as senator, at the time of the vote to the Congress.)

Hardly confidential and obviously a “homage” to the previous former French President! who, a well-known fact, had similar opinions about the Bush War in Iraq.  This is hardly a gaff, but then those looking under every rock for blunders, improprieties, indiscretions will find it, particularly if they paint with a brush full of slime.  President Obama certainly knows who is the current President of France.  Doancha think? 

Mon dieu!  Did I say slime?  Gee, I’d say the blogosphere is kind of slimy.

The slimy plot thickens, or does it?
The Christian Science Monitor comes to Obama’s defense: “Obama writes letter to Chirac - blogosphere goes crazy” (of course it would, it is full of political punchdrunk crazies!)

Another French newspaper, the New Observer, explained that Obama was merely replying to a Chirac letter who was writing him as the head of his foundation — the Jacques Chirac Foundation for sustainable development and cultural dialogue.

The foundation is promoting access to water and medicines in west Africa, combating deforestation in the Congo Basin, and trying to save dying languages in Polynesia, according to a spokesman who helped set up the foundation.  A worthy endeavor, but that part was left out of the screeching.  Wonder why?

The CSM says, “there is no evidence that the language has upset President Sarkozy or anyone else in France.”

Who exactly are the ones upset ?  Who exactly is looking under rocks?  Nevertheless, does or does it not make for good foreign policy?  Maybe and maybe not.

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 5:11 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
Article in the French Nouvelle Observateur…
  Cette relation épistolaire peut-elle déboucher sur des projets communs? Pour l’instant, aucune rencontre n’est prévue entre les deux hommes, qui ne se connaissent pas personnellement. Mais les objectifs de la Fondation Chirac - développement durable et dialogue entre les civilisations - rejoignent les préoccupations du président américain.

Translation: Can this correspondence lead to joint projects? For the moment, no meeting is planned between the two men, who do not know each other personally. But the objectives of the Chirac Foundation - sustainable development and dialogue between civilizations - join the concerns of the US president.

Here are some other facts:
  * Obama’s letter was sent on March 20, the anniversary of the Iraq war.
  * The US still has troops in Iraq defending that country, and those troops are not only fighting but actively engaged in building a civil society.
  * Each and any action by the Obama administration will be closely examined particularly by the scouring Republicans. Is it really true that publicly approaching a private foundation with language that can be interpreted as being against the US presence in Iraq actively undermines that effort?  Only if that is what you want to make of a purely humanitarian effort, but we know that Republicans are notorious for not being that humanitarian, i.e., the Bush War!
Moreover,
  * Nicolas Sarkozy came to power by running not only against the Socialists, but by actually running against Chirac within Chirac’s own party.  Politics happen.  Don’t we know that?  The possible criticism that it is not a good idea to publicly “extend a hand” to Chirac is a red herring since the intention was to note the anniversary of the BUSH WAR IN IRAQ and to promote good deeds in the world! Something is wrong with that, right?

Just covering as many bases as we can so the truth will out, not the trooth:  Whatever criticisms there are of Chirac are completely alleged, and of course we convict, staff and quarter on allegations especially if it is about a 62% approval rated Democratic President!  Furthermore, even if Chirac’s foundation strongly promotes the globalization tax, a tax on wealth generated by globalization, there are as many in the world who likely would support that as would not.  It is a push come to shove.

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By Shingo, March 23, 2009 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

>> http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/2009/03/19/01001- 20090319ARTFIG00357-confidentiel-barack-obama-a-ecrit-a-jac ques-chirac-.php

I just read this article.  I speak French and this article does not support anything you said.  Yes, Obama wrote a letter to Sarkozy.  He did not address him as President.  The contents of the letter are confidential, so you and your fellow wingnuts are inventing a story to attack Obama.

So typical.

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By Shingo, March 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

If indeed the Rule of Law reigned in Israel, then the IDF would not have been able to violate the ruling of the Supreme Court and continued to ban journalists from entering Gaza.

Military investigations in Israel are no different to those in this country.  They amount to little more than a sideshow for the public.  Name one IDF soldier who has been convicted of war crimes.  Even Ariel Sharon, who was regarded as a war criminal in Israel, never faced charges.

It’s the same as the Haditha massacre in Iraq.  In the end, everyone got off.

>> Whether true are not they will be checked out while none of the abusses by Hamas against Palestinians is being investigated so this again prooves that the left continues to favor the terrorist over the Jew.

Statements like that prove that a) you can’t spell and b) that you are a right wing evangelical fanatic.

>> I have read very little about the fact of an Israeli investigation on their blogs or coments and almost nothing about the many human rights abusses and attrocities committed by Humas or Hezbollah.

Simple rally.  Everyone knows that the IDF investigating itself is like Al Capone doing his own taz audit.

Israel has clerly violated the rules of law, but more importantly, these are not isolated cases but policy.  that is why any investigation will likely find the perpetrators innocent, because technically, they have not broken Israeli law.

The reason you haven’t heard anything from Humanrights Watch, or Amnesty International on these atrocities committed by Hamas, is simply because there is little evidence of it and in cases where there is, the abuses are far fewer than those committed by Israel.

You are no Christian Trith, you are an evangelical whack job who’s obsession with Israel stems from your perverse belief that the rapture will come once Israel is fully restored.

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies I think has an important point about the reporting of atrocities of both sides Israelis and Islamists given equal time in the news and the UN and Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, both whose publications I receive and read!  It might be useful to write a protest to both, which I have done already!  I lean left, but I am not over the edge Leftist.  There is a rational degree to which social programs can be promoted to further the rights and well-being of humans (and trees aka planet, and animals) without becoming insane over it!  Except for one!  freedom of speech!  That I do become nuts about! 

All that said, and Trith’s analogy of Orwell’s Animal Farm is fitting, and the not eating of pork is one of those insane dietary laws, sort of like the Catholic eating only fish on Fridays!  I’d say it is complete bullshit, except it would be more appropriate to say bullfishshit instead!  One of the means of making a living in Biblical times was as fishermen!  Remember, Jesus the fisher of men, walking on water, Crime in Itly! get with the program…oh, and Rome as well and most of Italy, and Mediterranean Greece had a dependency on the fishing industry, so what better way to insure income than to get Mother Church to collude and sanctify fish, designated on at least one day a week for the Christian world (which is still the largest religious group, though losing ground fast to the Muslims) to observe?  Well I love fish but that law is and was ridiculous.  And most of the Jews I know think not eating pork is also ridiculous and all eat BLTs. And the Hindus not eating beef.  Not eating red meat is good for humans though but let’s at least call if for what it is.  Cholesterol!  Heart attacks!  Methane gas!

Now Trithoverlies then, once again, goes over the precipice into his brand of insanity in what he says is the root cause of war:  It is not man’s sin of pride, it is man’s sin of greed and power and only those two things.  If there is pride involved it is only the result of those two biggies.  Greed and power, power and greed in any order but in those two things and only those two things.  And what is the root of those needs?  The fear of death.  Man’s mortality.  Submission to all those things, adultery, fornication, theft, murder, drug addition, rape, dreams of 72 virgins in heaven, and all manners of perversion (gee Trith, get yourself a spell and grammar checker please! Oh, and use it!) are all man’s invention to intervene in his inexorable death.  Unfortunately for the earth, mankind developed a cognitive brain making him the most dangerous animal on the planet.  They need to develop their brain even more to think critically.  The earth itself doesn’t care one electron if mankind survives or not.  It will take itself back at the end of man’s existence.  Crime crime crime is all bullshit.  Mankind has committed untold crimes against their own kind, the earth and all forms of life since men began crapping on the paths of its own glory.  So one era’s crime is insignificant (including Nazi Germany’s, Israelis against Palestinians, and so forth).  The pendulum of life will swing this way and that and one group will prevail then another.  Read history.  Christianity has had its turn at atrocity.  Let’s say that at the moment in some parts of the society, not all mind you such as when the KKK dons their little white pointed hats and carrying ropes, or a delusional president hearing the words of a divinity goes to an unlawful preemptive war and kills millions of people, or a Catholic church sides with nazis to kill millions of Jews, it controls most of its murderous urges.  But there will, of religious theological necessity, be a knock down drag out end of all end battles as to which god will be the One and only.  You all know that don’t you?  I plan to be on Alpha Centauri when that happens.

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By Trithoverlies, March 23, 2009 at 7:37 am Link to this comment

The Rule of Law still reigns in Israel the reported abusses that some few Israeli soldiers reported are being investigated. Whether true are not they will be checked out while none of the abusses by Hamas against Palestinians is being investigated so this again prooves that the left continues to favor the terrorist over the Jew. I have read very little about the fact of an Israeli investigation on their blogs or coments, and almost nothing about the many human rights abusses and attrocities committed by Humas or Hezbollah. Yes the rules of war should be recognized by both combatants; but the facts are that while Israel has done so and is investigating any abusses the same can not be claimed by Hamas, which committed murders of their own citizens just because those citizens tried to keep Hamas from using their backyards to fire missles and mortors from. But I haven’t heard anything from Humanrights Watch, or Amnesty International on these atrocities committed by Hamas why if both are supose to follow the rules of war is it fair to criticize one and stay mute about the other of course not yet the Leftist leaning media reports on Israels alledged abusses but says not one word about Hamas and their atrocities, what is one pig more equal than the other as is claimed in Animal Farm. My apology for the anology but it fits even if nether group will eat pork.  Lets stop trying to justify Terrorism as a ligitamate means of war and get to the root cause Mans sin of pride which leads to all forms of sin including greed coruption and you know the litney Adultery, fornication theft, murder, Drug addiction, Rape, and all manors of perversion committed by man. We don’t want to recognize the root causes of all degradations and culamity that it is mans pride the sin that leads to all other sins. There are foundational LAWS, Rape is a sin and crime, Murder is a sin and crime, baring false witness (telling lies) is a sin but can also be a crime excetra… excetra. What is the cure religion no most Religions condone far to many sins if committed by their followers. True Christianity doesn’t gloss over the sins committed by Christians, or so called christians it comfronts it and because of this it is the most unwelcome Faith, it relies on personnal accountability rather than laws.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              JOhn R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shingo, March 23, 2009 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Yes OzarkMichael,

Care to cite the source of your amusing story, or are you clutching at any straw you can find to make up for the countless foreign policy abomination perpetrated by Bush, especially the attitude he displayed toward the Fench,

BTW.  If he insulted the British, it was on one occasion.

Art you missing Dubya that much OM? Rush not keeping you warm anough at night?

OzarkMichael said: Here is the blog kept by the teleprompter!

Are you really that gullible?  Oh wait, don’t answer that…

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By Shenonymous, March 23, 2009 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

After scouring the French paper, it is so very interesting that no article of the President Obama’s faux pas can be found in Le Figaro (the famous French morning newspaper).  Please cite the day and the title of the article.

I made the following thorough inquiry of the newspaper: http://www.lefigaro.fr/
The story about President Barack Obama making a tactless mistake writing to Jacque Chirac as the current President of France instead of Nicolas Sarkozy.

In French:
L’histoire au sujet du Président Barack Obama faisant une erreur dépourvue de tact écrivant à Jacque Chirac en tant que président courant de la France au lieu de NIcolas Sarkozy.

The search served the following answer:

In French:  Dans les articles
0 documents trouvés pour L’histoire au sujet du Président Barack Obama faisant une erreur dépourvue de tact écrivant à Jacque Chirac en tant que président courant de la France au lieu de NIcolas Sarkozy.  dans tout le site
Aucun résultat trouvé !

In English:  In the articles
0 documents found for L’ history about President Barack Obama making an error deprived of writing tact with Jacque Chirac as a current president of France instead of Nicolas Sarkozy. In all the site No result found!

I don’t mind it if someone who has a personal dislike for Obama wants to cast aspersions on the President of the United States.  It is after all Liberté de parole, freedom of speech at least in this country!  But when it is made such as it was, you have to know I will “check it out.”  Rarely do I read “blogspots” as they are notorious for prevarications.  I suggest not looking for a god in Obama but a man who is trying to save this country’s ass.

Advice:  it might be worthwhile checking out blogger news (even if what they report is in a newspaper not written in English).

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By OzarkMichael, March 22, 2009 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

Our genius of a President sent a letter to former French president Jacques Chirac, the online edition of the daily Le Figaro reported on Thursday.

In a letter described by Chirac as ‘very nice,’ Obama wrote, ‘I am certain that we will be able to work together, in the coming four years, in a spirit of peace and friendship to build a safer world.’

Only one problem. Chirac is not President anymore. It is Sarkozy.

He insulted the British twice and he has insulted the French, all in a span of two months. Maybe he is doing it on purpose. Maybe he decided to intentionally cheese off two of our most powerful allies in order to prove he doesnt need them.

Or maybe Barack Obama is not that smart. Of course I will be called a racist for even thinking such a heretical thought.

Am I the only one who notices he uses a teleprompter more than any public figure ever?

Hmm, no I am not the only one. Here is the blog kept by the teleprompter! The blog talks about ‘the Big Guy and that would be President Obama. Read a few entries just for for grins. Although you will risk being called racist if you laugh.

http://baracksteleprompter.blogspot.com/

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By cyrena, March 22, 2009 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous,
Night-Gaunt: Obama is not withdrawing support from Israel because of some reason.  He is an intelligent man.  His actions looks one way to the public but we do not know everything.  We think we do but we do not.  He has great and important things to deal with right now.  And he has all the juggler’s balls in the air.” 


I am sitting here absolutely dumbfounded, to read this piece of intelligence from you Shenonymous. Seriously. After the past 3 months of rantings from you, I just never expected to hear or witness such a thing with my own eyes again.

Miracles do happen. Thank you for posting this.
You say, ‘his actions look one way to the public, (perception) but we DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. That says it all. I would only add that for some of us, we DO ‘KNOW’ that we DON’T ‘know’ everything, and as trite as it sounds, it means having a measure of ‘faith’ based on what we can see and hear, while all the while acknowledging that there are things going on that we can’t possibly know.

There are lots of reasons why we ‘don’t know’ beginning with the obvious. Basically, we’ve become a dumbed down society…a ‘managed’ democracy as Wolin puts it, with the masses ‘managed’ by the 1% of the Corptocracy. That didn’t just start. We’re also stupid, having gradually declined over the years to what has long ago placed us far below the sociological advances of other modern societies.  We have become a 3rd World country.

Our infrastructure is rotted out, and we stood by helplessly and watched an entire city drown, even as we learned that the former Thug regime KNEW the drowning and destruction of New Orleans was a GUARANTEE!! The Army Corps of Engineers had long before predicted it writing. They said…a hurricane of 4 or more magnitude will wipe this place off the map, because the levees will never hold. And Dick Bush said: let it happen. It did. And, it became the biggest crime scene since 9/11.

We’ve watched the destruction for 8 years, like watching the planet’s largest train wreck in slow motion.  Now there is so much rescue and recovery effort needed just to hopefully stem the hemorrhaging, and it’s been 62 days since Obama took office and inherited an unprecedented catastrophe.

And now the hard core anti-Israelis are hollering for Obama’s head, based on what they think he should do to Israel. It truly amazes me that Obama has now become solely responsible for the 60 year old Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, despite the fact that he’s only 48 years old himself. Good trick, eh?

Well over a year ago, Tony Blair was assigned as the special envoy to the Conflict. He JUST got around to showing up there a couple of days ago. Meantime, Obama appointed his own special envoy – Mitchell, and he did it IMMEDIATELY.  So while folks bitch, Mitchell has been working. While folks bitch, Obama has closed Guantanamo, and suspended the kangaroo trials going on there, as they continue to try to place and process the remaining detainees, all of whom were apparently innocent of any and everything from the jump.

These are HUGELY important moves to reverse the most serious of the damage wrought by Dick Bush, and yet they still bitch. However, it’s OK. The rescue effort has begun, and Obama is working a triage that is impressive as hell, in my own opinion.

SOMEBODY is going to have to deal with Israel. Obama will, but he’s not necessarily gonna explain it in detail, step by step, because he is an intelligent man. So far, (and we only have the 60 days to go on at this point) Obama has begun to set the stage for the International Community to do what it needs to do -as an International Entity- to deal with Israel. All he has to do is allow the system of International Law to work as it was intended, (rather than being the saboteurs of same system for the past 8 years) and that alone will allow for a correction that is NOT manipulated by the US and Israel alone.

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By Shingo, March 22, 2009 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Yes all religions started out as an avenue of enabling mans attempt to reach GOD, but they soon became a means of controlling a population.  Most of th erules imposed by Christianity and Islam have no relevance in the Bible or the Koran, while rles that are explicitly mention (ie. that shoult not kill) are ingored and by religious leaders.

The God of the old Testament is not onlike the Unmerciful Allah. I respect that you have your own beliefs, and wish you well, but when you get on your pulpit and begin preachig to the rest of us about how we will be juidged because we don’t support Israel undconditinally, you lose all credibility and come across as an Evangecial whack job who is salivating over the impending End of Days.

Chistians have a despicable history of unleashing vioelnce on other lands and religions. While you believe that Muslim continue to desicrate the temple mount, Jews are destroying Muslim burial sites.  You are blind to the crimes commited under Chrsitianity and incensensed by the crimes commited by Islam.  It is obvious.

You like your own religion and think it is the only true religion, but like I said earlier, so do the followers of other religions.  Christianity and Islam both have a concept of heresy.

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By Shenonymous, March 22, 2009 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

Interesting…Night-Gaunt.  I’m sure you must have meant concatenate.  Verbal homophonic repetition is definitive reinforcement and samo samo does have that poetic ring to it however limited it is to the “racist” children’s story Little Black Sambo., first published in 1899.  It became highlighted just several years ago when an outcry about that story, originally from India, erupted about its stereotyping as a news item in the media.  Concurrently there was a movement afoot to ferret out racism in children’s stories, and rightly so.  Many such stories unthinkingly were written in the somewhat gullible-about-racism period of the Victorians that naively if unintentionally promoted racism.  I don’t think Sambo (samo), is a term beloved within the black community.  Refracted sound that emphasizes meaning found in the common language can be disconcerting to the unsuspecting. You have explained sufficiently that you meant a different emphasis to the word.  Shouldn’t we root out racism wherever it is found even in an innoxious use of alliteration?  Or is that being too picky?

And quite true, quite true, however, having seen the flinching in an audience, using the word niggardly immediately conjures up the racist word, nigger, even though it is known by the educated especially the Middle English language enthusiast or Swedes to mean miserly or stingy.

Well so far President Obama is also similar to previous presidents in that he is a President of a complex and distinct country.  How he handles the myriad of problems he “inherited” as I noted will not be a simple matter of dumping on Israel and elevating the Palestinians.  Nothing is ever simple, nor as it seems.  I say he should be given the courtesy of being President for a significant amount of time to allow for changes to be made regardless of how glacial they may seem.  Besides I do not think he put the entire “onus” on the Palestinians, but rather assigns responsibility to Hamas.  Didn’t we already say that?  Funny how we have to keep saying it to keep the facts straight!

By the way, for anyone interested, President Obama attains to the height of a rock star I was told by an Orange Countian of California.  When he visited there (a heavy bastion of conservatives) last week in his effort to win support for his budget and all the accoutrements that have gone with it, i.e, stimulus package, etc., the crowds lined up for tickets distributed by a free lottery! sleeping over night to be able to be in line for them.  Unbelievable.  What is so ‘niggling’ is the attention to the detraction given by as many Republicans as could get their croaks in.  Aren’t they darling?  No handshakes to be expected across an aisle that in reality has a 10” thick concrete barricaded wall in Congress.

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By Night-Gaunt, March 22, 2009 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

Sorry I don’t normally use slang. Same-O-same-O from Same old thing repeated. Nothing overtly or covertly racist I am aware of even if there is a faint concantenant homophonic echo to it. Rather like ‘niggardly’ which is a Scandinavian based word and has nothing to do with the Latin based root word for dark or black.

I so far see Pres. Obama sounding the same as many previous presidents giving Israel the benefit of any doubt and putting the entire onus on the Palestinians to stop firing rockets into Israel. Which are in retaliation to Israel’s attacks on them every day which Obama hasn’t made comment on. Perhaps he only sees Israel as the victim no matter what weapons they have or how they use them. Typical oligarch of the USA.

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By Shenonymous, March 21, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt: Obama is not withdrawing support from Israel because of some reason.  He is an intelligent man.  His actions looks one way to the public but we do not know everything.  We think we do but we do not.  He has great and important things to deal with right now.  And he has all the juggler’s balls in the air.  I have confidence he is going to be an amazing president whether or not he fulfills everyone’s dreams, and most certainly those dreams that he will fulfill may not be done Right Now!  The penchant to be fed on demand has been a terrible conditioning for social human beings.  Nevertheless, even if he is continuing support for Israel, whatever the reason, there is no reason to say he is samo samo as if he is genuflecting to de massa who you name as Israel.  Sounds a little racist to me like Little Black Sambo Sambo.  And I think that kind of talk, innocent as it might seem, actually insidiously perpetuates the racism we decry at other times.  So maybe a cut above way of putting it is it seems he is genuflecting to Israel  I believe Obama referred to Hamas as the aggressor, but he did not let Israel off the hook.  He sent his Secretary of State there to give more than lip service to the Palestinians right to self-rule and determination.  The pieces of the peace puzzle has to be in the right places.  Time is the peppery element!

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By Night-Gaunt, March 21, 2009 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Shenonymous and Cyrena for your comments. I did not want to digress off the thread which is why I wound it back to Israel vs Palestine and how when you consider yourself superior by force then nothing good can come of it. That is how bully’s are allowed in our schools because of the subtle idea that others need to protect themselves from the bully(ies) is good or that bullying is a good trait. A psychopaths trait in my opinion. But then we see many problems from it including getting guns and ending the tyranny in a blood bath. Fortunately that mindset is changing. Right now it is Israel who is the bully to Palestine. We need to react consistently to them and anywhere else where people are attacking unjustly others for whatever reason. Like in Sudan too. The USA however, sides with Israel every time and that is why the USA needs to get out of there. Mediators must be neutral. Obama is the samo-samo in genuflecting to Israel even while giving lip service to the Palestinians. But treat them as the aggressor not Israel. Without equality there will always be tyranny of all sorts. It is the ‘growth medium’ for it. Violence begats violence.

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By Night-Gaunt, March 21, 2009 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

Thanky you Shenonymous and Cyrena for your comments. I did not want to digress off the thread which is why I wound it back to Israel vs Palestine and how when you consider yourself superior by force then nothing good can come of it. That is how bully’s are allowed in our schools because of the subtle idea that others need to protect themselves from the bully(ies) is good. But then we see many problems from it including getting guns and ending the tyranny in a blood bath. Right now it is Israel who is the bully to Palestine. We need to react consistently to them and anywhere else where people are attacking others for whatever reason. Like in Sudan too. The USA however, sides with Israel every time and that is why the USA needs to get out of there. Mediators must be neutral. Obama is the samo-samo in genuflecting to Israel even while giving lip service to the Palestinians. But treat them as the aggressor not Israel. Without equality there will always be tyranny of all sorts. It is the ‘growth medium’ for it. Violence begats violence.

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By cyrena, March 21, 2009 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt writes in part:

•  “Not just ‘race’ but also religion and gender and many other reasons that false speciation is used. We see it when one country wants to make war on another the locals are reclassified to something less than they are. Putting everyone on an equal plain or in situ rights (without a merit system) is the first start. Without it all other actions are fruitless.”
Night-Gaunt,
Thanks for pointing this out about the false speciation that has been consistently used in the reclassification practice to make something/someone LESS than ‘THEY’ are. You can’t possibly imagine how long it took me to not only understand this in terms of racism, but to process it in a way that could be articulated. I realize it’s not ‘just’ race, but here in the US, that has been the bedrock of the false speciation from the beginning.
What it boils down to, is that the lowest of the lowest class of white people, (indentured servants, share croppers) have always required that SOMEBODY be ‘less than them” and so it had to be blacks and Indians.
Dr. Mannis wrote an excellent piece on this somewhat recently, in response to the multiple calls for the assassination of our new President. It’s entitled, “When Are WE Going to Get Over It?”
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-176650
Here’s an excerpt
“… But elect a liberal who happens to be Black and we’re back in the sixties again. At this point in our history, we should be proud that we’ve proven what conservatives are always saying—that in America anything is possible, EVEN electing a black man as president. But instead we now hear that schoolchildren from Maine to California are talking about wanting to “assassinate Obama.”






Fighting the urge to throw up, I can only ask, “How long?” How long before we white people realize we can’t make our nation, much less the whole world, look like us? How long until we white people can -once and for all- get over this hell-conceived preoccupation with skin color? How long until we white people get over the demonic conviction that white skin makes us superior? How long before we white people get over our bitter resentments about being demoted to the status of equality with non-whites?
I think the last question pretty much says it all. There is still that very bitter resentment to being made ‘equal’ with non-whites.

Dr. Mannis continues:
“How long before we get over our expectations that we should be at the head of the line merely because of our white skin? How long until we white people end our silence and call out our peers when they share the latest racist jokes in the privacy of our white-only conversations?”

It’s really all about the ‘equal’ part. There is still an overwhelming portion of the US population who simply can never accept this concept of ‘equality’ as applicable to them. So whether it’s determined by race, creed, gender, or other less obvious discriminatory factors, the bottom line is that there is a large population who believes themselves to be ‘above’ another group of people, just because they own image of themselves is dependent on that.

Here’s kind of the wrap up, though you can read the full piece at the above link.

“I believe in free speech, but how long until we white people start making racist loudmouths as socially uncomfortable as we do flag burners? How long until we white people will stop insisting that blacks exercise personal responsibility, build strong families, educate themselves enough to edit the Harvard Law Review, and work hard enough to become President of the United States, only to threaten to assassinate them when they do?”

Good question, eh?

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By Shenonymous, March 21, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Night Gaunt, you are on the right track in your assessment of Nietzsche and his use of the concept of nihilism.  Nihilism is really not a thing to practice as much as it is the consequences of beliefs and then the results of behaviors based on those beliefs.  I was not attempting however to open the conversation up into Nietzsche and his perspectives which would take this forum to a whole different level and many directions.  Though I guess by mentioning his name I inadvertently did just that. 

Briefly I will say this, in his declaration that “God is Dead” in his work The Gay Science, and subsequently others, TSZ where he blares out the announcement, for instance, his quasi-atheistic perspective, I believe, was a proposition that the God(s)* as previously known was dead due to man’s complete misunderstanding of what he created then in untold numbers submitted to its creation completely. He had a negative reaction to the fatalism, or pessimism, of Wagner and Schopenhauer that led him in a counter direction but through a labyrinth of his own.  I believe his rejection of Schmeitzner because of Schmeitzner’s anti-Semitism was a prelude to his deeper insights.  Funny, in the odd sense, that Hitler seized on a completely opposite understanding of Nietzsche, and gleaning the idea of superrace because it was a convenient justifying excuse to himself for his own evil actions.  Adolph Hitler probably never read any of Nietzsche or if he did he just browsed it.  I agree completely there are no epistemological absolutes and just recently said as much on this forum recently by saying knowledge like science is open to revision when new facts are discovered in a discussion about subjectivity and objectivity. However, I hold a strong belief in Darwin’s theories and that Nietzsche was obstructed in his thinking about Darwin.  Also I think the secularization of the world is inexorable, inevitable, so I depart from the Nietzschean view as what should be the basis for meaning.  Yes we could go on and on and on, as you can see.  However this discussion would take us down a different and very long avenue of thought.  Perhaps some other time, some other place.

*All gods of all religions.  This is my own conception.

I believe you are right about the transference of oppression from happening to the Jews to the happening by the Jews.  And we saw it in Iraq by the United States although the US could hardly claim to have been oppressed.  The only other important events of that nature by the US was the oppression of the Native Americans who won their independence through constant small wars and battles.  Many Native Americans think that final battle has not yet happened.  The Southern oppressive slavery of the black population was intensely and incessantly carried out with many atrocities and murders by the white massa population but was stopped by the Northern Abolitionists.  There too, many claim that battle has not ended either.  Again I agree that without an egalitarian plane all other social actions are fruitless.  This is what all human beings ought to strive for.  And in the very words of Nietzsche, “...Every drive is a kind of lust to rule; each one has its perspective that it would like to compel all the other drives to accept as a norm.”  Egalitarianism is such a drive.

Your comments Night Gaunt were insightful and much appreciated.

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By cyrena, March 21, 2009 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

•  “I think Karma, the law of moral causation and effect, akin to Bergson’s and Nietzsche’s process of eternal return, is bullshit held as a belief usually by those who are grabbing at straws because this life hasn’t panned out as expected.  The spelling of nihilism is n i h i l i s m.  Sorry about that, but there is only one word close to the way I misspelled it even with the typo.  Can’t have taken that long to find it in any English dictionary.  Good grief, now I’m being criticized for typos as if no one on these forums ever mistypes anything!  Picky picky picky…Good grief, Charlie Brown.”

shenonymous,


Why did you think you were being ‘picked on’ or ‘criticized’ for typos Shenon? All I said was that I had to look up the word, to try to figure out what you were talking about with the acronyms and such. (CN, OMN, etc) and try to make the connection to whatever it was that you were trying to say, other than the fact that I wanted to murder people.

Anyway, I had an idea of what I thought you were trying to say, despite the misspelling, so it wasn’t a question of ‘picking’ on YOU for a typo, but of course since everything on this forum is always about YOU, I should have been more careful in trying to make sure that you didn’t get into your crucifixion complex. But then, that’s pretty impossible eh?

As for your opinion about the bullshit of Karma, you could be right. Fortunately, this is another one of those things where it doesn’t matter an iota, what YOU think!!!  That’s pretty much the case with everything like that shenon. You’re opinion is of great importance, to YOU. Doesn’t mean anything to ME, and it terms of Karma, I simply stated the obvious….what we put out there comes right back, at some point in time. And I said that in SOME circles, that is called Karma. I don’t personally ‘call’ it anything, and I think it’s fine if you call it bullshit, if that’s what you believe. You obviously have the walmart version of straws to grasp at, because apparently you can’t afford these fancier concepts. Sorry I can’t help, and I don’t do Walmart either.

Sure hope you get over your typo. It seems to have really bothered you that you made that typo. Didn’t bother me, but it sure as hell has bothered you.
I’ll send you some straws. Meantime, you can also try blowing into a paper bag. It’s good for hysteria attacks, and it can help keep you warm during these rough times, just by recycling all of that hot gas.

Leefeller,

Backstabbing on a public forum is hardly a new concept. It’s called defamation, and it’s been happening since before god was born. Why do you think it is an ‘interesting’ concept? I mean, maybe it is, I’m just wondering why you find it so? Do you believe it to accomplish anything productive?

Just curious.

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By Night-Gaunt, March 21, 2009 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, Nietzsche did not promote or practice nihilism, he wanted to make sure humanity had a protection against it. This was after Immanuel Kant’s work that ‘killed’ the god concept, as Nietzsche saw it. So he set about to do it with his idea of the ubermensche who was in control of their own thought processes and needed no others to command them to do the right thing. The ubermensche and uberfraulines were the final development of humanity as he saw it. He considered humanity to be unfinished in its evolution and that for him was the ultimate outcome of species adulthood. I agree only in that humanity as a whole hasn’t even reached the full potential of what we do have at our command. Though Nietzsche also accepted a full meritocracy for humanity. The better you are the more rights you have which is something I do not agree with. Note there are many groups who oppress other groups as being inferior to them. The Jews and Romany in Europe were treated in awful ways by those who considered them lesser people. Or those Jews in Israel who suppress the Palestinians as lesser to them. Not just ‘race’ but also religion and gender and many other reasons that false speciation is used. We see it when one country wants to make war on another the locals are reclassified to something less than they are. Putting everyone on an equal plain or in situ rights (without a merit system) is the first start. Without it all other actions are fruitless.

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By Trithoverlies, March 21, 2009 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

Shingo,
We both agree about religion and faith but what is Religion It is mans attempt to reach GOD. All the Religions in the world have that in common but in true Judaism, and true Christianity it is all about GODs reaching down in love for Man. If man had designed Christianity and real Judaism he would have done just what all religions do based it on works as we see that the Holy Catholic Chruch, and the Judaism of today has done. But true Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ a one on one with a GOD that is both reachable, and concerned about you not like the Unmerciful Allah, or the vendictive deities of most ancient religions. I still believe Jesus is the Only wayl; but I will defind your right to the death to disagree by that I mean My death not yours. This of course is what no other religion will do that is why Hindus are burning Christian Churchs and any other religeous sites. that is why Muslim continue to desicrate the temple mount by destroying as much of the ancient artifacts that prove it was the site of the first and second Temple of the Jews just to give a few of the examples of man based religion over GOD Based religion. My Jesus the Christ wants you but He will let you choose and in so doing allow you a freedom that no other religion worshipped today will. I believe when one uses an open mind they will also come to the same conclussion I have; but it is always your right to disagree. Not as the Aithiest who want to force all but their own religion of self from the public forum nor as Islam which has a history of convert or die since its founding and is still being cried from the Mosque of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Chad, Suddan, and evan some Mosque right here in the American Heartland. Does this make all Muslims bad Heavens NO but the 15 to 25% that are radical yes they are an evil that is like a Cancer and if allowed complete free reign will spread and take over as the middle ages showed in both Roman Catholicism, and Islam.  True Judaism and Christianity in its pure form always fought for the right of the individual to chose but because Man has an eschewed mind set he has increasingly been shawn to do the wrong thing. In the Bible Gods whole Purpose has always been that Jews and than Christians show the best light; but we as men and women can’t seem to do that so the warts show atleast in the Bible. What other book shows that even the the most righteous people don’t always make the right choices in life? Where are the Warts of Mohamed in the Quran,and Hadieth, where are the warts in Sid Harth Gutama’s Eight Fold Path to Enlightanment, are the Vades, and Baghavageta of Hinduism. We are the warts in Christianity I am no where near perfect but I am striving to be Christ like everyday; but all to often I fined myself felling him not once but mutiple times each day. No one is righteous Paul said we have all gone are own way and this is the world we live in today I am a sinner but also I am saved through grace by faith not works lest I would be able to boast of being better than others. I am not better than you or anyone else I am forgiven and loved by the God who took my place on the cross and in so doing offered me the gift of salvation there is no other religion that preaches this key point True Chritianity is about Christ not man I have an assurance of heaven every other religion say if my good works out wiegh my bad I will be accepted, when do you find out if you have done enough to inssure paradise? Never so this I believe is the second point in the real form of Christianity, or as Judaism in its truest form was practiced before the New Testament I am not talking about Temple worship or as the Pharrisees, and Sadducees practiced.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Leefeller, March 21, 2009 at 10:06 am Link to this comment

Thank you all, I have learned many things on this thread and always love to learn. thank you very much.

She, I will check out the video when I get a chance.

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By Shenonymous, March 21, 2009 at 9:52 am Link to this comment

Everybody knows who is belching out poison.  That is the beauty of these public forums.  While some people are what they eat, others are what they say.  I have said directly all along what I am and what I believe. 

I think Karma, the law of moral causation and effect, akin to Bergson’s and Nietzsche’s process of eternal return, is bullshit held as a belief usually by those who are grabbing at straws because this life hasn’t panned out as expected.  The spelling of nihilism is n i h i l i s m.  Sorry about that, but there is only one word close to the way I misspelled it even with the typo.  Can’t have taken that long to find it in any English dictionary.  Good grief, now I’m being criticized for typos as if no one on these forums ever mistypes anything!  Picky picky picky…Good grief, Charlie Brown. BTW and FYI, nihilism is another Nietzsche concept, but the way I meant it, obviously, and there are several meanings to the word, is as pessimism, utterly destructive, derivative of the Latin nihil.  Which is also what I think is the status of freedom of speech in the Middle East.  Non-existent or dangerously existent.

For anyone who appreciates world music, here is another gift in my TD concert series.  After having given so many of “that Jewish boy’s” fabulous performances, I had requested a Middle Eastern performer, and no one really came through.  OzarkMichael gave us a terrific Van Morrison Rough God Goes Riding that talked about unending feuds, but always trying to balance things out, I thought She should give you a real one.  Appropriately it is performed by Palestinian musicians.

As always, it was better as a live performance, but see if you can take a moment out of the life on the Internet especially if you like oud music to watch and listen to a small concert by the Oriental Music Ensemble, a band of Palestinian musicians given to an American audience.  By the way this performance was given just a little over a week ago.  I happen to love Middle Eastern music, and particularly the oud.  One of the musicians gives a poignant account of a sad time and making music anyway.  This one is about 55 or so minutes long, but is well worth it.  Sit back, relax, take your mind off of war and conflict for a time, and enjoy. You are most welcome.

http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/artist_detail.cfm?artist_id=ORNTLMSCEN#

Scroll down to Past Performances.  Click on “Play this Performance.”  A small video screen should appear and should start up itself.  If not, click on the forward arrow under the video.  The About the Artist write up is a little background about the group you might find interesting.

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By Leefeller, March 20, 2009 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

Stabbing one in the back on a public forum, is an amusing concept and paints an interesting picture in my mind.

We have the alleged stabber, the stabby, who would be the self proclaimed victim and the audience everyone, except the stabber or the stabby, on the TD Forum.

Now how does this work, the stabber sneaks up and stabs the stabby in the back, while the audience was, getting popcorn or running to the restroom during a commercial break? Did the audience miss the stabbing of the victim as the stabby, was firing off pontifications ad nasturtium in a dark ally?  Or is it that the stabby had always been off before being stabbed in the back and everyone did not not see it happen, even the stabber?

Maybe someone else could explain to me how stabbing someone in the back, is preformed on a public forum?

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By cyrena, March 20, 2009 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

Nihilsm comes in many packages.  There is the cyrena (CN) kind who would either murder, or have someone murder, or character assassinate with a spewing of verbal poison towards one when one is found not agreeable, namely me; then there is the kind that OzarkMichael (OMN) uses under the guise of Fundamentalist Christianity to obfuscate reality, thus he is a hypocrite as much as anyone on this forum, who would bury Shenonymous because She is an atheist.

~~**~~

Whoo…back to the Stephen King stuff. I just tried to figure out what this Nihilsm thing is that comes in many packages,  but since it’s not a real word in the dictionary, (at least not that spelling) it took a little while to figure out what this post from Shenonymous is supposed to be about. I guess we all have acronyms now too, according to the dictionary of Shenonymous, who just sort of makes the shit up as she goes along, talking in the 3rd person about the only topic of any interest to her, and that would be HER.  Now that’s fine of course for anyone with nothing better to do, but since I have some other things going on requiring my attention, I don’t have time to memorize useless code language that only shenon understands, which is based on her persecution complex that everybody is attacking her. In the real world, she’s just a paranoid schizophrenic, and there are treatments and other professional mental health caregivers available, but shenon will never utilize the services, because it is the nature of the illness to do that.

Nobody cares that shenonymous is an atheist, except for shenonymous.

Nobody cares that shenonymous is an elderly single white woman in fear for her social security, if only because there are too many others in the same situation right now, and simply far more deserving and appreciative of the assistance that is available.

Nobody is spewing verbal poison at shenonymous, but she interprets all dialogue based on her own motivations for indulging in the same, so of course its perceived as such by her. So, nobody cares.

Nobody CARES shenonymous, particularly anyone who may ever have. As a general rule of human nature, most folks don’t take kindly to being insulted, ridiculed, and stabbed in the back. We put up with that kind of behavior from our loved ones, (family) when we know that it’s something they really can’t control themselves, but from STRANGERS??? Nope.

It’s called Karma in some circles. I’ve just always said that we get whatever we put out there. You put it out there, and it comes right back at you. It’s a guarantee. Seems like you’d have figured that out by now.

If YOU hear poison, (any other voices you haven’t told us about?) then it’s because that’s what you are steeped in…the poison of hate, and it’s the only thing you recognize. It is what and who you are…hate. It’s that simple. There’s nothing complicated about it. Period. Dot. End of sentence.

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By Shingo, March 20, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

You finally produce a post that is articulate and makes sense.  I never disputed the existence of God, in fact, I do believe in God.  What I object to is the notion of the one true God, the one true religion and the one truth.

Religion and faith are not the same thing.  Whether you’re a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, our day of judgement will come down to what our own faith and or own righetousness, not whether we were nice to Israel.

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By Night-Gaunt, March 20, 2009 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

Truthoverlies, you have the usual arrogance of the ‘true believer’ variety who is an atheist to all other religions but their own. Yes ‘a-theist’ you are too, just selective in what you accept and others that you don’t. Even calling them myths while yours is the only truth as you see it. Too bad it is so poor in its persuasive capability to convert the rest of us. Billions who do not consider your point of view valid or even real. Others who accept yours as valid and real for you but not for them. There are the ones open minded enough to believe that all religions lead to the same place.

I am general in all I don’t accept as wanting in the kind of proofs they are forbidden to give. I would be classified as of the Naturalist or secularist type. Which is fine for me. No gods, no masters. We must master ourselves before we can deal with all the other peoples on this world as our equals and our life lines to collective survival. Israel and Palestine are one of the many examples of how not to do it. In fact it is a throw back, an atavism of ideas and mystical certitude that kills and tortures, maims and supress. An ugly past we shouldn’t have now nor carry into the future.

Live and let live should be for everyone. Though there are those who wish their way or the cemetery. That kind of mind set must end or it will eventually end us.

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By Trithoverlies, March 20, 2009 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

You are talking about the Mystery religions and the Greek religeous pantheon which was never apart of Judaism and like wise much of the Mystery Religions were localized and never changed a persons life as for your argument on Horius and his likeness to the Christ story well all that does is show that individual cultures developed their pantheon of gods from the one original God that scattered the people at the Tower of Babel. It is much like the mythes in many cultures concerning the great flood they are not as descriptive and they generally are caused by gods acting Human not Man trying to be his own God that is what got us in trouble in the first place. It has another problem in it the god has sexual intercourse with a virgin thus she is no longer a virgen and the Greeks fame about their gods acting copreciously didn’t infect Isaiah writing about Jesus 800 years before when their had been no eastablished trade with the Small rebellious greek city states so your theory has been argued by others who don’t want Christianity to be true. But agian it only shows that man no matter where you put him Knows down deep in his heart that he needs God. But due to the fall of man we have an eschewed idea of how God operates and the Greeks and the Assyrians and the Sumarians all had panteons of gods the acted more human then many humans. Yes man has a need for a savior but only one is that savior it isn’t Mohamid, it isn’t Buddha, it isn’t the gods of greece, it isn’t the gods of hinduism, or Native Americans. Their is only one Savior that is Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose on the third day all others are false messiahs made by the enemy of the one true God.
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Whether you every believe it or not is between you and the One True and Living God of the Bible. It is for you to decide your desteny I can’t and want force that on you as Radical Islam and Mohamid did and still do from 625 A.D. to the Present.

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