Top Leaderboard, Site wide
Winner 2013 Webby Awards for Best Political Website
Top Banner, Site wide
Apr 24, 2014

 Choose a size
Text Size


They Are Watching You




The Divide


Truthdig Bazaar more items

 
Report

Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Feb 14, 2009
Sachsenhausen
AP photo / Sven Kaestner

Visitors to Oranienburg, Germany, pass the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp last month. The words on the gate translate loosely as “Labor liberates.” 

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally published in The Independent.

The third and very final part of the “normality” of war. I have just finished reading Lyn Smith’s Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. I admit to a personal interest. Lyn is a friend of mine for whom I have been recording my memories of Middle East wars for the Imperial War Museum. Nothing I have ever seen can equal this, however, and I can give only one example from the terrifying, outrageously brave and moving book this is.

It is the testimony of Leon Greenman, a British Jewish inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau who arrived at the extermination camp with his wife and child. It speaks for itself. All other passages pale beside it:

“We were bullied out of the train and stood about waiting. It must have been about half past two in the morning. It was dark, a blue light was shining on the platform. We saw a few SS men walking up and down. They separated the men from the women. So I stood right in front of the men and I could see my wife there with the child in her arms. She threw me a kiss and she showed the baby ... Then one of the prisoners in a striped uniform commanded us to follow him. Well, we turned to the left and walked a little way for two or three minutes. A truck arrived, stopped near us and on the truck were all the women, children, babies and in the centre my wife and child standing up. They stood up to the light as if it was meant to be like that – so that I could recognise them. A picture I’ll never forget. All these were supposed to have gone to the bathroom to have a bath, to eat and to live. Instead they had to undress and go into the gas chambers, and two hours later those people were ashes, including my wife and child.”

I recalled this searing passage this week when I received a letter from a reader, taking me to task for my “constant downplaying of the suffering of the Palestinians on the grounds that their deaths and suffering are minimal when compared with that of the Second World War”. Now, I should say at once that this is a bit unfair. I was especially taking exception to a Palestinian blog now going the rounds which shows a queue of Palestinian women at one of Israel’s outrageous roadblocks and a (slightly) cropped picture of the Auschwitz selection ramp, the same platform upon which Leon Greenman was separated from his young wife and child more than 60 years ago. The picture of the Palestinian women is based on a lie; they are not queuing to be exterminated. Racist, inhumane and sometimes deadly – Palestinian women have died at these infernal checkpoints – but they are not queuing to be murdered.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
Yet our reader does have a point. The Second World War, she says, “does put it in a category apart ... but surely if one is caught up in any war and sees one’s loved ones killed or maimed, one’s home destroyed ... then that must be the greatest cataclysm in one’s life. The fact that a hundred others, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million are suffering likewise is immaterial to the individual’s suffering. The Second World War lasted six years. The Palestinian suffering has lasted over sixty…”

And yes, I’ll go along with this. If it’s an individual being deliberately killed, then this is no less terrible than any other individual, albeit that this second person may be one of six million others. The point, of course, is the centrality of the Holocaust and – Israel’s constant refrain – its exclusivity. Actually, the Armenian Holocaust – as I’ve said on umpteen occasions – is also central to all genocide studies. The same system of death marches, of camps, of primitive asphyxiation, even a few young German officers in Turkey watching the genocide in 1915 and then using the same methods on Jews in the occupied Soviet Union. Numbers matter.

But our reader has another point. “After all,” she says, “in the Second World War, after the entry of the US and USSR on our side, people could feel pretty positive about the outcome. But where is such hope for the Palestinians? And now to cap the horror the BBC is refusing to even show an appeal to help Gaza…” I’m not at all sure that W Churchill Esq would have entirely placed such confidence in the outcome of the Second World War – he was initially worried that the Americans would use up their firepower on the Japanese rather than against Hitler’s Germany.

I think, however, there is yet one more point. The rules of war – the Geneva Conventions and all the other post-Second World War laws – were meant to prevent another Holocaust. They were specifically designed to ensure that no one should ever again face the destruction of Mrs Greenman and her child. They were surely not made only for one race of people. And it is these rules which Israel so disgracefully flouted in Gaza. It’s a bit like the refrain from Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara and a whole host of other apparatchiks when the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Well, yes, they told us, it was bad – but not as bad as Saddam Hussein’s regime.

And of course, this argument leads to perdition. True, we were bad – but not as bad as the Baath party. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or Hitler’s Germany and the SS. Or the Ottoman Turks – though I noticed movingly that one of Lyn’s Jewish Holocaust survivors mentions the Armenians. No, the numbers game works both ways. A thousand Palestinians die in Gaza. But what if the figure were 10,000? Or 100,000? No, no, of course that wouldn’t happen. But the rules of war are made for all to obey. Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths. But a Palestinian woman and her child are as worthy of life as a Jewish woman and her child on the back of a lorry in Auschwitz.


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 19, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

Even today our gov’t , plus many others, use Clauswitz’s cynical (or realistic) view that war is, “diplomacy by other means,” which is a rational for dux bellorim as we see when negotiations are started the USA always has “everything on the table” which includes B/C/N weapons to use unilaterally. When you want war you shall obtain it.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 19, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Maybe N-G if you are on the West Coast and TD is on the East Coast, But I think TD is in Santa Monica California, so go figure.

Night-Gaunt:Once we end this idea of one group is exceptional in all ways from anyone else, i. e. imperialist thinking, we shall be better off.  Concisely said and correct in my view.  Conflict seems to be inevitable, so the trick will be for humans to create protocols on 3/5 cards to resolve them that excludes war.  By that I mean not so much abbreviated reactionary answers but the ability to quickly recognize the essential problem and some methods to siphon off the antagonisms deflecting the energy into constructive solutions.  I have not had conflict resolution training so I have no useful suggestions.  I have witnessed in my lifetime that sides in a conflict are full of highly charged emotions, protective instincts or imperialistic intentions, either way the emotion is there that fuels the combat.  It seems always, always, always a third party must intervene to put an end to it.  Otherwise death and destruction goes unchecked.  The 800,000 dead in Rwanda could have been avoided had the rest of the world not only intuited that they had the responsibility to fellow human beings to step in, but to actually step in.  It only took 14 weeks for that many to die!
Shattering to a sense of consciousness and conscience isn’t it?  Israel in the Gaza conflict (war, if you will, with lopsided armaments) reacted so quickly that no other nation could have intervened.  Criticism is only in retrospect.  Their reactive nature might have some historic basis as they perceive it, but nearly 1300 killed does not justify it in contemporary times.  The UN often seems lopsided as well and they do not seem to be effective enough in preventing death in conflicts.  But organizations like the UN and NATO, etc., are the only hope where a community of nations work together for humans to evolve beyond the imperialism of which you speak.  Long term is education but that means countries must be including tolerance in their curriculum.  That is a much harder solution since nations are no only remiss in doing that but actually engage in teaching hatred.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 19, 2009 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Yes, I have too. Could it now be reading EST?

Once we end this idea of one group is exceptional in all ways from anyone else, i. e. imperialist thinking, we shall be better off.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 19, 2009 at 8:07 am Link to this comment

Hey, is anyone else experiencing weird time indications on the comments they post here on TD?  For instance, it is the morning on April 19, 2009, but my comment says 2:01 pm!  Very very odd.  I’ve sent a question to the TD webmaster about it but no response.  I’m taking a private poll.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 19, 2009 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

I luhhhhhvvvve Gala apples.  I think I singlehandedly support the entire Gala apple industry all the way from New Zealand where they were hybridized to America where they now have orchards and orchards of them.  The only kind nature should have made, but humans created the hybrid.  Oh, there are other good apples, oh yeah, f’sure f’sure, but my love is for the Gala.  See ITW, I believe in gray people!  Miscegenation everywhere, no ethnicities, all gray people.  Oh I jest… a bit.  For I would not want in the least to lose the beautiful arts produced through ethnic imaginations. 

People will be people (human animals) and jealousies and territorial ownership conflicts and antagonistic belief systems seem to interfere with peaceful living.  These seem to be innate tendencies, even the development of belief frameworks, so the cognizant animal, the human animal, has to exercise their unique sense of logic and transcend those tendencies.  Learning to discuss issues, learning to see the other’s point of view and understand its origins and faults and merits to see where confluence can exist is the way humans can overcome those deep seated hatreds. Night-Gaunt, and you,  have voiced this in different ways, but I think we are saying basically the same thing.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 19, 2009 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, April 18 at 9:37 pm #

I take it back!  I take it back!  I was just teasing!  I take it back!  I’m a coward! Oh yeah.

Peace sign with Her fingers as She slithers back to her cave.  But She could be tempted back out with a fine apple.

***************************

Royal Gala, anyone? smile

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

I take it back!  I take it back!  I was just teasing!  I take it back!  I’m a coward! Oh yeah.

Peace sign with Her fingers as She slithers back to her cave.  But She could be tempted back out with a fine apple.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2009 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

“(‘cept of course and you have both our permission, ITW, who said he has come to terms with it.  Oh ITW, I’m just kidding, you know that).  “

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT????!!!!!
.
.
.
.
(J/K…:) )

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

Hey Folktruther, I am glad to see you here.  Why, I do not know exactly.  Like an old pair of slippers, one gets used to them no matter how worn out they are.  All you have to do is check the little box down at the bottom under the post comments box and you should not be notified anymore.  Also every email you receive that lets you know when some one posts on that forum has a link at the bottom also to stop getting them.  But I hope you don’t do either and post as you often do with barbed, comments that I think have grains of truth in them, but I look for those grains sans name-calling (‘cept of course and you have both our permission, ITW, who said he has come to terms with it.  Oh ITW, I’m just kidding, you know that). 

As Aristotle said, “every man has a small bit of the truth.”  Okay, so I would have to submit commonsense is the folk truth you are looking for.  The problem with commonsense is that it does not help when problems are beyond its folk knowledge.  And many people would have suffered such things as polio without logic and science.  That is exactly why cognizant man developed uncommon knowledges. And I believe it is natural for humans to have developed that way.  As Night-Gaunt has mentioned a couple of times, humans are the uniquely cognizant and logical working animal.  That is not to say they have fully evolved.  We are too impatient as we are on the brink of “Better Man.”  We are always anxious for things to happen.  Back to nature groups are plenty in the world.  As long as they don’t try to force their rustic way of thinking and life on me in a fascistic way, I am happy to have them in my world. I would listen to their non-rabid arguments anytime.  I try to live as thriftily and as natural as I think I can.  I do have an electric can opener though and a dishwasher and I do not wash clothes by hand.

Report this

By Folktruther, April 18, 2009 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Actually, Shenonymous, I just inserted that sentence to try to get this danm thread from coming up continually on ny e-mail.  But no such luck.  I can check here from time to time without being reminded constantly.

I embody class struggle truth more than folk truth but the former is as scarce in the mainstream truth as the latter.  I never understood why we couldn’t have folk theories in the same way we had folk art.  As the world becomes urbanized in the 21st centruy, I think we will see it more.  Uneducated truth, formulated from the earthperson population.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 18, 2009 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

So, where does our scientist lead us, whether bushman or Watson and Crick?  To morality.[i/]

First, i am glad for an alternative solution. I will disagree with it.

I dont think the scientist qua scientist has anything to say about morality. When they think they do it is usually creepy. Its like a weatherman who wants to perform an appendectomy. When he says he can perform it because he is a very good weatherman I would run for the tall grass.

I got nothing against scientists. I was trained and was employed as one. Did my education in science is qualify me to speak about morality? No, it contributed nothing on the subject. 

Logic? ok yes. certainly Logic is always welcome.

Mr Spock? Anytime!

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D97OxHZzBeQ

The Future – Leonard Cohen

Give me back my broken night
my mirrored room, my secret life
it’s lonely here,
there’s no one left to torture
Give me absolute control
over every living soul
And lie beside me, baby,
that’s an order!
Give me crack and anal sex
Take the only tree that’s left
and stuff it up the hole
in your culture
Give me back the Berlin wall
give me Stalin and St Paul
I’ve seen the future, brother:
it is murder.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won’t be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
has crossed the threshold
and it has overturned
the order of the soul
When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant
When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant
When they said REPENT REPENT
I wonder what they meant

You don’t know me from the wind
you never will, you never did
I’m the little jew
who wrote the Bible
I’ve seen the nations rise and fall
I’ve heard their stories, heard them all
but love’s the only engine of survival
Your servant here, he has been told
to say it clear, to say it cold:
It’s over, it ain’t going
any further
And now the wheels of heaven stop
you feel the devil’s riding crop
Get ready for the future:
it is murder

Things are going to slide ...

There’ll be the breaking of the ancient
western code
Your private life will suddenly explode
There’ll be phantoms
There’ll be fires on the road
and the white man dancing
You’ll see a woman
hanging upside down
her features covered by her fallen gown
and all the lousy little poets
coming round
tryin’ to sound like Charlie Manson
and the white man dancin’

Give me back the Berlin wall
Give me Stalin and St Paul
Give me Christ
or give me Hiroshima
Destroy another fetus now
We don’t like children anyhow
I’ve seen the future, baby:
it is murder

Things are going to slide ...

When they said REPENT REPENT ...

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 18, 2009 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

We have planned and planned well for many years. We won’t lose our home, we aren’t upside or in over our heads.  We have resources and we’ve been through this before, when my wife lost her job, several years back.  Now it’s my turn.  We stick together.

I have heard of this kind of life. It is a bonnie life. cheers, ITW!

Thanks, She and N-G. My anger may lead me to take it out on folks here, but I’ll try to keep it those who deserve it (they know who they are).

Sometimes I am one who needs a smack in the back of the head. Sometimes not.

But ITW, even when you are after me I dont feel like you hate me. So all is well.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

Like all of you, I’m squeezing in one of my favorite pastimes of TD interaction into a Saturday afternoon!  Believing Plato, that to have a gainful conversation, those speaking must speak the same language, so he spent much of his dialogue writing to show that definitions must be commonly understood for harmony, or agreement, to have a chance to take place. 

Looking up the word ‘Universal’ (with a capital U) might be helpful to extend understanding of what we are talking about.  It is a word attached on to many many things, the Universal force be with you and health care being just two of them.  Universal Studios (a movie company that makes Universal Pictures-do people in the neighboring solar system get to watch them too?), Universal Music Group, the largest business group and family of record labels with 25.5% of the market share.  Then there is in Orlando, Universal Hotels in Universal, Orlando, Florida (hell a whole city named Universal.  I think it must be a concoction of a Chamber of Commerce, for I do not think there is a city on this planet that could be Universal.  I have not heard any aliens coming for a vacation.  Yeah, I know, others have and have been taken for a ride in a saucer and horrible things done to them, even impregnating them.  Okay, where was God, then?).  I mean atheists have to blame something extraterrestrial.

Then we have Universal Time (UT) only there it stands really for the international time standard supposedly common to every place in the world (or solar time based along the earth’s prime meridian as established under international agreement, uh, Greenwich mean time (GMT) rhyming with sandwich.  Oh, and salt is involved.  Oh oh, it is now past my lunch time. Food is very important universal element to yield universal brain power. Then we have, small letter u, universal language, i.e., like Esperanto, a language that is intended to promote communication and “goodwill” among peoples speaking different languages without replacing the native languages (so there OzarkMichael, an antidote to the Tower of Babel).

There is also something called (also small letter u) a universal gas constant (hmmmm, I am sure cows understand this one very very well, the gas laws) no crap!  Then we have the bar code (Universal Product Code (UPC, you have all learned that one, except for those in Nairobi and neighbors).  How about the UPU (Universal Postal Union) which more or less prevents employees from going “postal?”  No, silly.  There is Universally Going Postal!  Metaphysically and epistemologically and logically, universal is a general category, such as a property or relation, considered distinct from the particular things that instantiate or exemplify it.  In other words, acts as a paradigm.  The problem of universals concerns the question of what sort of being should be ascribed to such categories (for example, is there any such thing as redness apart from particular red things?). The debate over the status of universals stems directly from Plato’s theory of forms.  Plato held that forms (ideals in his words, universals in ours) exist independently in which the are exemplified.  This seems right to me but his further explanation is one I don’t completely agree with.  That they necessarily imply a deity, Prime Mover, Demi-Urge.

Then finally there is (finally in that I am getting tired of it all, universally speaking), Newton’s 17th century law of universal gravitation about any particle of matter in the universe that attracts any other with a force that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between.  He used the law to explain the observed motions of the planet and their moons based on Kepler’s mathematical formulation.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2009 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

I’m luckier than most: We have planned and planned well for many years. We won’t lose our home, we aren’t upside or in over our heads.  We have resources and we’ve been through this before, when my wife lost her job, several years back.  Now it’s my turn.  We stick together.

So, where does our scientist lead us, whether bushman or Watson and Crick?  To morality.  That scientific logic is how we exist, how we live, how we survive.  It is how we plan for the future, protect against storms, droughts, plague, etc.  Without our logic we are not human.  Not our emotions—my cats have emotions.  Not our love—my new doggie loves us.  No, it’s logic.  Logic for survival, both short-term and long-term.

That’s how we survive. So our logic leads us to our value system: whether building a house, or morality.

We all loved “Mr. Spock” on Star Trek.  He was a man who SOLELY made his decisions based on logic and that logic inevitably led him to do the right thing, even if he did have the writers on his side.  Why is that?

I’ll let you ponder it a while and see if a certain person is still cursing me to hell and beyond.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2009 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Thanks, She and N-G. My anger may lead me to take it out on folks here, but I’ll try to keep it those who deserve it (they know who they are).

Yes, I think Right and Wrong are pretty straight-forward.  Universal? If by that you mean for all people, I’d have to agree. Across all life? Definitely not. We are what our nature makes us, but what is that?

See, we just got a new dog, not quite a year. We’ve been dogless awhile and so we are more sensitive.  He has basically 4 sets of traits:
1) Traits of his species.  Like all dogs, he’s a wolf and all of his behavior is traceable to wolf behavior.  Genetically, a Peke and a St. Bernard are wolves—so’s this guy.
2) Traits of his domestication.  He’s not feral, so in that sense he is NOT a wolf (though he looks just like one, even when licking my little one’s face) he’s a dog, with 15,000 years of separation from his lupine cousins.
3) His breed:  All breeds have characteristics of behavior as well as appearance.  A terrier is brave and stubborn, even when he’s not more than a rat (don’t like terriers much).  A Lab likes to swim and retrieve birds.  A coon dog is one of the few that can safely hunt raccoons.  A Rhodesian Ridge Back was used for hunting lions.  Mastiffs guard. Border collies and Belgian sheepdogs LIVE to herd, running vast distances back and forth, busting directions instantly to control modified prey—sheep. Greyhounds and Siberian Wolfhounds are born to run.  Cocker Spaniels are born to bite their owners (j/K).  Bull dogs were so named because they were built to grab a bull by the nose so he could be butchered—they were called Butcher’s Dogs as well.
4) His individual personality within his breed structure, from calm to excited, dumb to intelligent, submissive or dominant.

HIS morality is based on his gifts.  To dogs, one dog is always superior, one inferior. This must be established or they fight to establish it, or kill each other.  If two females in a kennel have puppies at the same time they must be separated or the dominant female will kill the lesser one’s pups—it’s a million years of Darwinian behavior that best ensures healthy survival of the species. 
BUT IT IS NOT OUR MORALITY!  It is a dog’s, no matter how we train them.

Likewise, our species has an innate trait, one we cannot escape and is the ONLY real agent of our ability to survive:  Our ability to connect a chain of information and draw a conclusion that is unseen by our senses.  The bushman trails a herd of antelope. He reviews the droppings and the hoof prints, and other indications.  He understand from them how long ago the herd was here, where it was headed, and what its condition was.  He then tests his hypothesis by heading to the next marker or finding the herd.  Do the next set of indications conform to his hypothesis? Yes/No?  He continues it or modifies it.

He cannot help but be a scientist like any scientist. The method is dictated by the nature of existence and his nature. He is human.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 18, 2009 at 10:13 am Link to this comment

One thing that such countries do is negotiate with those they meet and it is dependent on their characters as to how they may part as friends, colleges, aquaintances or enemies. Anarchism has existed in the past with very stable cultures—disrupted and destroyed by the more authoritarian ones like England, France, Spain and Nederlands that came to these shores. Too many variables to go into without really spending a lot on writing it so I work to use various means, like Nietzsche to get my point across. It is up to me to do it. Nietzsche used many means considered wrong to do so including ad homenim,emotion, also aphormisms and others. He only used characters in “Thus Spake Zarathustra” to take on differing points he wanted to address. I think too often with him most people read him (if they do at all)literally for everything without seeing context and nuance of his writing style. I am a bit more straight forward, usually.

We run the risk of getting Santyana’s “Mass Man” and Nietzsche’s “Couch Potato” instead of the fully realized, fully actualized man & woman. What do you think?

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

You express yourself very well, Night-Gaunt.  So well, which is why I said when gaps appear it is conspicuous.  And no doubt it would be a great deal of effort to cover it all (but not perhaps on this forum as we all are patient, those of us who do not care how long a discussion takes, ala Socrates’ practice of Midwifery).  I see that you do in fact include a galaxy of transgressors of what you hold as a moral code (morality).  Sometimes narrow means simplified, uncluttered, so as to see more clearly.  I find that a good personal rule.  Keep emotion out of it!  Sovereign country or an island unto oneself, two similar metaphoric ways to see the individual.  Quite reflective of the “me-generation.”  “Complete Control, Over Their Own Borders,” might be a good bumper sticker to live by, but within the larger organization called society, anarchic beliefs are self serving.  Hermit living might be called for, as in the Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski, who also believed in the primacy of the individual and spent his view killing others, in the name of “freedoms denied” as he failed to see others have equal rights to self-determination. 

Absolute respect for the individual is something about which I am in complete agreement with you.  And yes, of course, it was noticed how easy it was for the totalitarians of China to make that swich, as communism is an easy ideology in which to fester fascism by those who assume the power.  The incarceration rate in the US is indicative exactly of what, regardless of its comparison with other nations?  Couldn’t that mean that laws are more enforced rather than wider and more unfairly just?  Could it mean there are different parameters for a mixed, multicultural society, with a multitude of moral values in a unique country like the USA?  But respect for the individual has its borders as well when one chooses to live in a broad-based democracy such as the USA.  Israel is another tune.  A separate one with different issues and parameters.  We are only related to Israel politically.  A different discussion I would happily engage but not at this very moment.  Your baseline for morality seems venerable and I of course have ethical values for those things that I feel could be prospects for a Universal Morality.  According to some theorists, care for the society, is self-reflective and self-sustaining as well, so self-interest is to be interested in the health of the society.  Preventing suffering for oneself does not seem to be the only guiding principle.  Inherent in your statement in spite of the individualism you extol, is how one is to behave within the context of a society, and preventing or stopping the suffering of others.  Morals or morality are not needed outside of that context.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 18, 2009 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

If there are any gaps Shenonymous it is because I cannot cover it all here in this forum. But a few examples from you would be helpful for me to respond to what I said that you found wanting where I generalize too much. I accuse those in the Israeli gov’t as I do in our own or Iran’s or anyone else that do evil, immoral and dangerous things—-to others. Though my view of morality is far narrower than the typical religions are such as in sexuality, drug use and killing one’s self via the fast or slow way. I believe each individual should be treated as a sovereign country having complete control over their own boarders. The closest that comes to is in Scandinavia and Iceland with the Swiss coming in second. The USA is way down the list with an incarceration rate higher than Red Republican China!
Notice how easy it is for the totalitarians of China to switch from Communism to Fascism without hardly a ripple, except for those losing their jobs and homes when the safety net is yanked from under them.

I am sorry for your job/life loss Inherit The Wind. I hope you don’t lose your domicile and family so many other things as are going on now in the slow crash of the USA including suicides and murder/suicides which are being done by those who just snap mentally. It only takes one to lose self control and end up on the news. I am not implying you will just that it is a fixture in any country that is imploding financially. I believe the general waiting time for a good job is 2 years. So many search and find the part-time, and temporary and poorly paid or all of the above if you are “lucky.” Hope it is better for you.

To be explicit my baseline of morality is if it hurts me but benefits you in doing then something is wrong. Murder, rape, robbery and bunco is my baseline. Any more and we have left morality and moved to ideology & theology and stormtrooper enforcement of their morals to you and me. Whether by draconian laws or even incarceration.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

I find I am confused about morality discussions. So where is your confusion, ITW?  I think Right and Wrong are pretty straight-forward  Straight-forward for whom?  Whose set of morals, one’s own personal set? The society’s in which one lives? Or some set commanded by a deity?  If you say simply they are straight-forward, that implies a Universal Morality and you by default agree with OzarkMichael and shall be put under the same set of questions as put to him.  You could just say aye, OM, I agree with whatever you say.  ...and the mental gymnastics are usually to show one of two things: Either the exerciser is trying to avoid moral consequences or is trapping the other person into recognizing THEY are trying to avoid moral consequences. Why only these two things?  You have not made clear how the rationalization works. IOW (in other words), I see most discussions of morality as somebody looking for an excuse to let his reptilian anger allow him to hurt someone.  Yeah, that’s a generalization. Yeah, so you still have to explain your generalization.  Are you saying there is the psychological projection of one’s own sense of inadequacy?  Perhaps that does happen, but how does it fit in the puzzle of Universal morality?

Our anger cannot rule us, or it’s destructive. I think you are right, but why?  Because the nature of anger is such that it blinds one to reality, the bile that is let loose is not only psychological, it is physical as well, where bodily juices flood the eyes and brain chemicals gets messed up preventing thinking in a straight path.  If we are wise, we can ride it like an elephant and use it to our advantage and positively.  Again, I think you give an effective metaphor, but the problem that remains is how to gain wisdom and channel the energy spent on anger into a constructive life.  And again, how does that fit within a sphere of Universal Morality?  Cognizing that there even is a morality has the power to change one’s behavior.  It might not, but the potential is there that wasn’t there before.

Meanwhile I’m dealing with my own anger.  It was only 72 hours ago that I was fired from my job of 16 years with no explanation other than the new owners were eliminating my position. For this I will be angry with you.  I am horrified!  It seems to be a common occurrence these days and many I know are expressing the fear of that happening to them.  Especially in California whose unemployment historically passed the 11.2% mark in March, but obviously it is not an exclusive malady to California.  In reality, I know they were shutting me up and terrorizing my colleagues.  So forgive me if I’m a little self-focused.  You are forgiven if absolution is a balm for your infuriated mind, but commiserate is more what I, an Internet Ghost, can realistically do especially as the shutting up illustrates denial of freedom of speech, and you know my sentiments on that!  With what I have read of your posts, you too are outspoken, but admirably so, even when I think we disagree! Which isn’t all that often.  I have no simple solution like Leefeller suggests.  It isn’t always or even usually the case that one can work for oneself.  I won’t offer some facile witticism.  And I don’t know what good my hoping your conundrum is resolved quickly can do, but I will anyway.  It is crap to start looking for a job after a long career (to whatever degree a job is a career).  You strike me as intelligent and talented, contrary to what the curmudgeon Folktruther says (gad, I hope I don’t set him off on a spate of name-calling, again), I sense it will turn out all right for you.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 18, 2009 at 8:15 am Link to this comment

Saying fishpiss, and etc., ITW, is one way I often release frustration.  We could digress and talk about how neurological and psychological factors are connected and three reasons that underlie the reasons why normal people curse.  Losing one’s job due to no reasonable fault of one’s own, seems to be a very good candidate for cursing.  It is said cursing is a nexus of interconnected psychological, neurological, and cultural factors that integrates all three in a meaningful way.  It seems one can assume the function of releasing the frustration by doing the cursing for others could also work (well maybe, but I prefer to do my own cursing)!  So in case that is case (as in Pascal’s Wager), I shall say kusobaba!, which means in Japanese, SHIT!  Let me know if there is anything else I can do.  I’m sure I can provide great tunes, or poems, or more expletives.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 18, 2009 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

ITW, being fired is not good, does one still collect unemployment? Every time I left a job, it was on my own or I was asked to leave, must say leaving on your own is more pleasant. The world is full of ass holes and it seems I had the opportunity to work for most of them. My last several jobs were interesting, in that I was asked to leave, one of my bosses did not like it when I referred to him as “butt head”. Evidently he did not believe in reality. Simple fact is, as I gather longer tooth,  my independence has moved to my shirt sleeves. Working for oneself is so much better if one is able.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 18, 2009 at 6:45 am Link to this comment

I was on a forum once which lasted for what seemed like an eternity, though I never posted on it. A guy named Robert was cut and pasting and I never read anything.

You know the Scots must have some humor, filling out an invasive questionnaires for employment. One could see them filling in alien for race?  I always like it when they ask about sex, especially if it it a fill in form, I write “occasionally” or “yes”. In Scotland for sex they may prefer to write in bagpipes.  Of course this does not work for multiple choice, so for race I always select other, which suggests something?  unfortunately they don’t give any other options for sex anymore except, “M; or “F”{, so I circle both.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 18, 2009 at 6:29 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, April 18 at 5:41 am #

Until the morrow, I just have to say how incredibly hilarious the Scotsmen of the Strathclyde Police Department are and to thank Leefeller with Dunkin Donuts for the new religion.  I genuflect.  I mean they have light-saber training!  Oh, and meditation techniques.  I mean….I mean….I, I, I, I’m stutteringly delighted.

Oh ITW I also meant to say you should relax those fingers.

********************************

I can’t tell you how disappointed I am not to see that year-old thread….in lieu I’d offer to help cyrena paint her toenails, but…she’s on the left coast and I’m on the right, I can’t STAND soaps and…

..not to mention wives don’t look to kindly on their husband’s painting other women’s toenails unless they own a nail salon.  (Actually, my wife’s nails ARE painted by another guy, for 16 years now.  Of course he OWNS a nail salon—and his wife is the specialist who does the feet.)

I find I am confused about morality discussions.  I think Right and Wrong are pretty straight-forward and the mental gymnastics are usually to show one of two things: Either the exerciser is trying to avoid moral consequences or is trapping the other person into recognizing THEY are trying to avoid moral consequences.  IOW, I see most discussions of morality as somebody looking for an excuse to let his reptilian anger allow him to hurt someone.  Yeah, that’s a generalization.

Our anger cannot rule us, or it’s destructive. If we are wise, we can ride it like an elephant and use it to our advantage and positively.

Meanwhile I’m dealing with my own anger.  It was only 72 hours ago that I was fired from my job of 16 years with no explanation other than the new owners were eliminating my position. In reality, I know they were shutting me up and terrorizing my colleagues.  So forgive me if I’m a little self-focused.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 18, 2009 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, i stumbled onto that bbc article by myself and wanted to be clever and post it here. Figured I could wait till this morning…

Yeah it was funny

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 17, 2009 at 11:41 pm Link to this comment

Until the morrow, I just have to say how incredibly hilarious the Scotsmen of the Strathclyde Police Department are and to thank Leefeller with Dunkin Donuts for the new religion.  I genuflect.  I mean they have light-saber training!  Oh, and meditation techniques.  I mean….I mean….I, I, I, I’m stutteringly delighted.

Oh ITW I also meant to say you should relax those fingers.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 17, 2009 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment

If the “it” is Universal Morality, Ozark Michael, I think we have to take a step back and try again to see if saying anything about it is meaningful when you say it is something unknown. Also you may be saying several things, not just one that may or may not be related.

You say in essence that there is a Universal Morality, and however (in spite of, regardless) there being a Universal Morality, societies present versions of morality to which each member of that society acts in accordance.  And paraphrasing further, you say individuals act according to their particular society’s code of conduct.  But before moving on, a brake is needed to reflect on how the notion of ‘regardless’ functions in your premise?  Regardless means a few things, showing no regard, unmindful, having no concern, in spite of, inattentive, negligent, indifferent, unconcerned.  Which ever synonym is picked, a problem emerges.  Let us assume all members of a society act in accordance with that society’s code of ethics (morals).  In what way then, when there is more than a distance between the Universal Morality and those who disregard it, do those morals participate in that Universal Morality you have devised? 

Then you say, “The acting out is the common person’s contribution to putting forward a cultural code much more potent than thinking or talking about morality.”  I think I agree with you here but I feel like I’m looking through a foggy window.  Yes, maybe I need better glasses but it is really up to you to make it clear and simple to understand.  I know from our long association you do not really wish to be obscure.  What do you mean by “more potent?”  And really, how can the local moralities evolve constantly and have anything to do with our constant and unknown Universal specimen?  By what magical means will you make the connection if no one knows it or even “can” know it?

I will digress for a spell:  I would love to know what else the metaphoric Tower of Babel represents to you OzarkMichael aside from language?  Yes, many of us do know the old Jewish fable.  The confusion of Tongues occurs briefly Genesis 10 and 11.  Ah, let’s see.  Since men were created in God’s image, they became too big for their flaxen bracae, and after building the first city (after the deluge) decided to revolt and do they ever, behind the dark tyrant Nimrod, he does not hunt animals but rather he hunts souls!  These humans snuggled together for comradeship, so it is said, to build that city.  They dared to challenge God!  They built a tower.  Towers are designed to elevate the spirit of man.  The city as the body, the tower as the spirit.  They wanted to “make a name for themselves.”  They were the antithesis of Adam, that shrunken man who didn’t lift one itsy bitsy finger to help that woe-man who was sculpted out of his measly rib (lusty Adam, that is).  But the Lord, God, omnipotent, and omniscient, Lord, made these rabble rousers, I know, just to have one huge computer game for it is damn lonely to play all by oneself.  Bull crap.  Oh, yeah, the bull was not soooo welcome in that country at that time (Baal).  Neither were pigs and women.  And that is how mutton and lamb cuisine ascended on the menus.  Yeah, I guess they ate their women too. Aw, I’m just kidding.

“Babel” is composed of two words, “baa” meaning “gate” and “el,” “god.” Hence, “the gate of god.” A related word in Hebrew, “balal” means “confusion.”  Babylon, represents the source of false religion. 

Much more could be said about Babel, babble babble and more babble.  And of course the tale’s relationship to Universal Morality. Right?

But tomorrow is another day and I’m sure there are others in our clan of the back alley who are waiting with bated breath to make their own additions.  Maybe not.  But having only gotten about half way through your comments about Universal morality, I have more questions.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 17, 2009 at 11:20 pm Link to this comment

ITW The only point I was making about another forum was with reference to participating in a forum for a very long time when there are only a few left who are interested in continuing the discussion.  Although that one is a good example, it is not the one mentioned. That one went defunct some time ago.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2009 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

Previously I mentioned the Jedi religion, I did not post the link.  It is very interesting and your may find it also, it seems the Jedi are fond of Bagpipes. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8003067.stm

Report this

By cyrena, April 17, 2009 at 9:12 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, April 17 at 8:40 pm #
There is another TD forum I have participated in for over a year and it is still going strong quite healthily.
***************************************
NOW you have my interest piqued!  Which one is it,She, Huh, huh, huh?  (gotta see what’s worth a year click-wait-click-wait…................click-wait-clic k-wait…..
~*~*
All right Inherit, would ya just quit reading my mind and then posting my thoughts for me? smile Never mind, I take it back. I’ve been too busy at my new ‘job’ to keep up these days. So it’s a GOOD thing that you read my mind and post my thoughts…at least in this case. Besides, I NEEDED this chuckle.

Meantime, (though with enough age-old wisdom of the adage ‘never say never’) I’m was pretty much already following right behind you in kicking this thread to the annals of the dust bins. Your ‘number of page’ gauge rule coincides roughly enough with my ‘sense’ of when the thing/thread/conversation loses ALL sense of what the original article was about, or even closely related to what it was about. And in this case, that happened long, long, ago, so I did ‘unsubscribe’ for a while, until something tempted me back. (some new posters that actually make sense and can connect ideological dots, or to otherwise defend myself against the fill-in-the-blanks.)

The only part that you may have been only slightly off in your response than my own, is that my interest really isn’t piqued in the least.

Terminology like ‘strong’ and ‘healthily’ really do have to be considered relative to the person(s) using them, and so what Shenonymous calls strong and/or healthy is very CLEARLY something that I would most likely fundamentally disagree with. Not always, but at the fundamental level, our ideas of healthy dialogue is in this particular style of public discourse (blogging being relatively new to a large portion of the population participating in these forums) is for the most part at odds with whatever her agenda might be.

Besides that, I can at least ‘guess’ at the thread that she’s making this claim for, which it a old Chris Hedges piece on an “Evangelical Rebellion” of some sort. (that’s not the exact title of the piece, but you could search it easily enough on the TD site by just putting in something like Chris Hedges’ Rebelling Evangelicals or something like that, and it would come up. (I mean, if your interest really is piqued.)

Theocracy really isn’t my interest at all. In fact, I found a delightful quote from the ‘atheists quotes’ site today. I can’t remember who to attribute it to, (though I can provide that for those requiring it). But it goes something like this: “An atheist is someone with no invisible means of support.”

That would be me. I’ve got some ‘support’ from various sources, but they’re all very much the visible type. I can see, feel, touch, talk to, listen to, etc, etc,  whatever the source of support is.
 
Anyway, that’s it for me here on this one. I just noticed a bunch of new stuff that I’ve missed because there just hasn’t been much down time for me lately. (I guess that’s a relative term as well.) Not enough time to goof off and wax philosophical.

OK, I’m gonna go watch some TV drama and paint my toenails or something else equally frivolous. smile

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

OM, thanks for the follow up, though I have forgotten why I asked it? Post mortem sounds good to me, for I have about as much use for Palin as her bear skin rug on her couch or the stuffed King Crab on her coffee table.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 17, 2009 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

{i]Not merely to cajole, but who is the “you” and exactly what is the “it” of which you speak?

The ‘it’ is the Universal Morality. The ‘you’ is the universal everyone(which means you and me and everyone else) but in this chat I was addressing Shenonymous especially.

I say that belief in such a precarious framework of morality is a form of psychosis.

Thats a strange thing for you to say since you believe in that precarious framework yourself. You know that there is some sort of overaching morality.  Oh, you might want to call it something else, and you might think it can be defined completely. I do not think it is psychotic of you to believe that. It is a healthy thing to approach a task with optimism.

I do not blame you if you prefer something more tame than the Universal Morality which i introduced.


This post from Leefeller is about to scroll off our page and I missed it earlier:

Ozark Michael, where does Sara Palin and people who believe as she, dovetail into Evangelism from your perspective?

She seems to be a Christian, I suppose of the Pentecostal type. She is not in the role of evangelist, she is a Republican politician. People who believe like she does we can call Christians, people who agree with her politics we can call conservatives.

Beyond this I dont know what you were asking me. Maybe you want a post mortem?

Ok. She wasnt ready for the job but neither was Obama.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 17, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

There is another TD forum I have participated in for over a year and it is still going strong quite healthily.
***************************************

NOW you have my interest piqued!  Which one is it,She, Huh, huh, huh?  (gotta see what’s worth a year click-wait-click-wait…................click-wait-click-wait…..

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 17, 2009 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael says: “I have even worse news. Without knowing the exact nature of Universal Morality you do much more than just say things about it. You must act in accord with it.  Not merely to cajole, but who is the “you” and exactly what is the “it” of which you speak?  Indubitably true many act as if they know, but it is done without any mind in it, so then how does one act in accordance with it that is not known?  I’d am forced to ask how would one know one is acting in accordance?  I say that belief in such a precarious framework of morality is a form of psychosis.  Be all that as I may think, I have found it always worthwhile to “discuss” matters with you, OM.  And I admit it is also always a piquant challenge.

ITW I think that is what I implied, that us back alley pack of mutts, some leaning more left than others, some more prickly than others, some more petulant than others, some grumpy, others audaciously providing Bob Dylan concerts that nary a one ever appreciates except perhaps Herself, or precious Jedi humor (which I take very seriously), some dyspeptic, some radically inclined to the right, and still more others ascending upwards to non compos mentis who find each other scintillating to some degree, uh…it is a closed system.  Of course we won’t be solving anything!  That is and is not the point!  And we don’t even care if nobody else but the resident nuts read it.  Frankly Scarlett I never have cared.  There is another TD forum I have participated in for over a year and it is still going strong quite healthily.

The problem with your logic Night-Gaunt is that you are using your philosophy in a similar way that you accuse the religious.  While what you say about the disallowance of neutrality by these religions, that they insist all others follow their brand of madness or burn in their creation of hell, appears to be accurate from what their representatives say (women are remarkably silent on such things in these religions), I don’t agree that the United States is using violence and suppression to force their way on the world doing similar things.  I will grant Iraq is an exception and an action for which I feel angry and ashamed of my country.  Nor, I dare to say, is Israel so guilty as you accuse, though there again, I do not think their actions impeccable in the least and I will re-qualify myself and say I am not a Jew nor a Zionist.  I see the situation differently than you (and others with out a doubt).  I disagree with what you say.  The habit of lumping things together and generalize is fallacious reasoning. It is pernicious and one hardly realizes one is doing it.  Say, if you please, what is that “certain point of view” you spoke of?  The proverbial ‘they’ is so imprecise.  Yes, do make the connection between the Nazis and the Crusades as was requested by OM, not because I don’t think the Crusades was not one of the bloodiest and worst actions in which Christians were ever involved, but because the linkage you make is weak.  And no I did not watch the History Channel’s latest version of the Crusades, but I have done a fair amount of textbook research. On the whole, Night-Gaunt, I think you present rational comments and logical thinking and it does not go unappreciated by me.  And I think, however, it becomes conspicuous when gaps are present.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 17, 2009 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

What do you expect to “solve” in a deeply aged thread rattling around in a back alley on a “liberal” blog?  Nobody but a few nuts like us is going to read it.

Why? Because instead of showing off in front of a large audience, She is searching for something else.

Shenonymous likes to search for truth in an interactive manner, by solving the disagreements between us. ‘Us’ meaning…between herself and anyone who is willing to chat in a civilized manner.

It does not need to happen on the stage of a high traffic blog. Its the people involved in the debate and not the audience that matters to her. It is the sort of process that might lead to a new understanding. New understanding leads to new ideas. Possibly to bring peace between two sides where there once was conflict.

I accept this challenge. I consider it a privilege to debate with her. Partly because as a human being she has inherent worth, but also She is the smartest person in the forums, one of the few geniuses I have ‘met’ in my life. My arguments rise to a higher level when i debate with her.

Here I am speaking for her when I know she doesnt like that. Or compliments. Well, thats tough. Its the sort of thing She has to put up with from me.

If ITW cannot handle the latest challenge from her to discuss morality, just admit it. Or if you arent interested in the topic, just admit that.

But for goodness sake, dont stay down on Folktruther’s wavelength. Microwaves will make your brain explode.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 17, 2009 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, April 16 at 8:38 pm #

Why Folktruther, why wouldn’t we still be at it?  Are all issues solved?  Do you want to put in your quip about morality, and truth (especially since the innuendo of your ID hints that you embody folk truth)?  If disinterested, there are many other forums to check out.

*******************************

She, did you REALLY say that??? What do you expect to “solve” in a deeply aged thread rattling around in a back alley on a “liberal” blog?  Nobody but a few nuts like us is going to read it.  It’s not going to solve ANYTHING!

For once, FT and I are on the same wavelength.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2009 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Om, I sometimes watch my television and occasionally even turn it on?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2009 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt, the fact is the “Force” was once with us, but they since discovered the force has gone on holiday, so we utilize the wisdom of the Jedi for now, and he is pissed off at the force for now, because he was not invited on holiday.  Jedi says, he will get over it. For now Jedi says we do not talk about the “Force”, instead we use the small “force” to show discontent. 

OM, “exemplified by the Crusades”?  The closest the Jedi can relate to is after he arrived on earth, he watched a serious TV program called “Crusader Rabbit”, which has since been banned because of low ratings amd replaced with Fox News.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 17, 2009 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

Starbucks are really Jedi sanctuaries, were Jedi ritcuals are performed, under the influence of the coffee bean

I am gonna go check it out.

The United States is doing similar things only on a larger scale as is Israel and anyone else you can find because it is a universal behavior that will be the death of all of us.

Strange that a terrible universal behaviour is by your reports and examples focused exclusively inside religion, and is best exemplified by the Crusades.

By the way, one does not need to be a Christian to appreciate that the Crusades ensured the survival of unshackled Christianity(as opposed to the dhimmi Christianity which exists inside Islam), with all the results which we enjoy today, whether one is a Christian or not.

If you find fault with any aspect of things as as they are, yes be critical of it and how it came to be. But dont be ungrateful for the good it also gave.

Leefeller, were you watching the History Channel version of the Crusades lately?

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 17, 2009 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

LeeFella just to be specific the Jedi are the enforcing body that uses The Force. So you mean The Force is the religion of which you iterate not Jedi who embody the positive aspects of it*. Such as the Monks that embody the concepts of Buddha but aren’t the Buddha or “Enlightened One.” Though Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion though. You can have the “Buddha mind” as he was and become enlightened.

*The Sith embody the dark or evil side of it as manifest through humanity. The Force itself appears neutral in all things, an energetic factor in their universe that only certain people can fully access. But when you can use it it can do amazing things. George Lucas did his research on all types of religions and mystic beliefs to come up with this synthesis.

Our problem is that too many at this time have a certain point of view and they demand others show fealty to it. [They literally do not like the idea that all others are not following their religion their way, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu or some others.] They won’t allow neutrality and will use violence and suppression to do it. The same mind set that drove the Nazis (a Christian sect) to kill the Jews, Romany, Homosexuals et cetera was a throw back to the Crusades. The United States is doing similar things only on a larger scale as is Israel and anyone else you can find because it is a universal behavior that will be the death of all of us. We are all human and should be on the same level, none above or below on this area of intrinsic merit. Even if we don’t believe or agree with what others think or want from us. That is why I say we are entering a new Dark Age with high tech weapons in the service of 10th century A.D. mentality. Both here and abroad. The violence and killing must stop or we shall all surely die.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 17, 2009 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

Universal morality has taken a step further into the little known realm of reality.  Even a few steps further, into the grand universe of reality.  It has come to my attention,  I am not alone in my belief of the Jedi and his wisdom of the universe.  Yes the Jedi of Star Wars.  As research by Jedi special interests,  the religion of the Jedi was slipped into the move as the first test of worthiness for salavation, most dependant on public reactions to unlimited acceptance of Jedi as a religion, unlike other religions, Jedi do not want to be overwhelmed.  3000 years or older dusty religions seem to be finding competition from fresh new religions such as Scientology, Lithumists and and now Jedi. There a over 200 thousand registered Jedi follows In England.  The first church of the Jedi, is in England, it is “UK Church of the Jedi - which offers sermons on the Force, light saber training, and meditation techniques”, where one can learn the wisdom of the Jedi and even prepare against the legions of evil by practicing proper use of light saber combat.  Condoms are a necessary priority for when the Grand Jedi appears and comes to take Jedi followers to the eternal plane of Jedi also known as the final Jedi resting place, there are a limited number of seats on the Jedimobile. 

It is well undocumented, many great scholars believe in the Jedi, but they keep it under thier hats not because most scholars are bald, but because they do not want overcrowding on the final trip.  Everyone has noticed the sudden appearance, of Starbucks after the introduction of Jedi in the movie “Star Wars”, should know this was not a coincidence.  Starbucks are really Jedi sanctuaries, were Jedi ritcuals are preformed, under the influence of the coffee bean, which is sort of the concept of a saint to the Jedi.  Why do you think Starbucks was one of the first places to have WiFI?  The Jedi communicates by the web.  It is known, the Jedi will come from the great Starbucks in the sky to take us all away from this horrible place to were wisdom and real Universal Morality is known to exist.  Some would say the great Jedi does not exist, it will be their loss and they will be left behind in this terrible world as we know it.

I envision this world and most of the people left behind like my dog,  when I leave her behind as I drive off to the unknown.  I will see all the sad faces with the sad eyes and it will be uncomfortable to behold, but I will handle it. For we all cannot fit on the Jedi Plain.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 17, 2009 at 6:30 am Link to this comment

If Universal Morality cannot be known… ...in what sense then can anyone say anything about it?

I have even worse news. Without knowing the exact nature of Universal Morality you do much more than just say things about it. You must act in accord with it.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 16, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

If you want to live in a Christian society I suggest you go to live in a monestary.

Or go to live in the USA. I opt for the USA because its a bit roomier.

If Universal Morality cannot be known, in what sense then can anyone use it as a measure?

Somehow it is done just the same. We sense we are moving towards it or away from it. More later

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 16, 2009 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies you seem to think you know what morals are.  What makes you think your vision is The Vision?  How exactly did you come by them?  You live in a secular society.  If you want to live in a Christian society I suggest you go to live in a monestary.

If Universal Morality cannot be known, in what sense then can anyone use it as a measure?  In what sense then can anyone say anything about it?  Isn’t it then a matter of personal interpretation and then what societies made up of individuals decide is the “common code?”  How can anyone maintain there is something that is not knowable or even that a constant evolution is goes on?  If something is in constant evolution by what tail does one grab it?  At what point does anyone say “ah that is the Universal Morality all men/woman must live by?”  Shall the Universal Morality be posted on TruthDig?  On CNN or MSNBC or Palestine Chronicle, or the Seattle Times? And who will post it?  Where and how shall all humans everywhere learn what is Universal Morality?  Is it even learnable by the description given?  Or is it not something learned?

OzarkMichael says “We may [have] a refined view of Universal Morality, and we may be closer to the truth than the other fellow, but we are still faulty. Our understanding is imperfect and not up to the job, but more importantly please remember that our actions define our morality. Everyone falls short, so that our proximity to the truth is in tatters.”  How do you know OM that anyone (we) have a refined view…and that anyone (we again) may be closer to the truth than another?  Who has the measure of truth such that this can be calculated to be within proximity close or far?  What is the yardstick?  If our understanding is inherently imperfect (my qualification there but implied by your statement) and we are not up to the job, then we cannot meet the standard at any rate.  It is pissing into the wind to try.  I myself do not like piss in my face.  How about you?  I would agree that whether or not actions are right or wrong is decided by morals, but I do not think morality is decided by our actions.  Morality exists separate as a guide for actions.  You further state that everyone falls short, (and here I interpret your meaning) and that our closeness to the truth is what is in tatters, not the truth.  An interesting observation and I’d like to know precisely how you know truth so well (since that one is obscure as much as morality) to know that our proximity is in tatters.  What exactly does it mean to have one’s proximity in tatters? 

No I do not think there is such a thing as Universal Morality in the way you are proposing.  But that does not mean I do not think there is not one.  I have already proposed that it is a crucial topic and needs discussed further.  I will soon post my view but too much to do in ordinary life at the moment.  Very interesting post at any rate OzarkMichael, and Leefeller as well. 

Why Folktruther, why wouldn’t we still be at it?  Are all issues solved?  Do you want to put in your quip about morality, and truth (especially since the innuendo of your ID hints that you embody folk truth)?  If disinterested, there are many other forums to check out.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 16, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

What is morality and is there such a thing as universal morality?

I maintain that there is a Universal Morality. However, morality is put forward by each particular society and acted out in each particular person. The acting out is the common person’s contribution to putting forward a cultural code much more potent than thinking or talking about morality. So there is a constant evolution going on(as per Leefeller) amongst the particulars but the Universal Morality does not change. The story of the Tower of Babel is not just about language.

Yes there is a Universal Morality. But another problem arises. The universal morality has many claims. Choosing which moral claim to implement in a particular situation is not always easy. Even if people agree together that there is a common morality, and even if they go so far as to perfectly define all the precepts in order to recontruct an accurate replica of the Universal Morality, we still find that when faced with a particular moral dilemma they will not agree on which precept takes precedence.

No one can know the Universal Morality. This is partly because it was active before we were born and will continue after we die. We become acquainted with it over time but we do not have ALL times in our hands.

There is another reason why we cannot know the Universal Morality even if we have all the time in the world. We may a refined view of Universal Morality, and we may be closer to the truth than the other fellow, but we are still faulty. Our understanding is imperfect and not up to the job, but more importantly please remember that our actions define our morality. Everyone falls short, so that our proximity to the truth is in tatters. Everyone. Including the beloved self and the beloved Other.

For all that, there is a Universal Morality, and I think it is beneficial to work together on this project.

Report this

By Folktruther, April 16, 2009 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

still at it, eh?

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 15, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

Abortion is by secular society deemed legal but that doesn’t make it right morally and yes morals are a bedrock foundation Don’t steal don’t cheat your neighbor, don’t Murder, don’t Lie, don’t hate your parents. all the above deel exclussively with how man should and should not behave toward his neighbor Keep the Sabbath a day of rest and reflection. don’t make anything else god, don’t worship the created thing but the creator. These all seem perty basic to me so what is wrong with them. Why every thing we can’t keep even one of them we worship ourselves our knowlege, our wealth, our pocessions, our bank accounts, other people excetra… We break the first two almost daily when we let other things get in front of God and what He says. We have broken the sabbath by working seven days a week, or doing thing that do not allow us to reflect on what God wants. We have disobeyed our parents so often that we have lost count, we lie to one another daily, we think about fornication almost daily, we steal from one another, we covet their property so you see we can’t keep even one of the Commandments. This is why we all need a savior, that is Jesus the Christ. He did what none of us could He lived a sinless life so He could be the unblemished lamb on that Passover nearly 2000 years ago. He took yours and my place on a cross that we should have been nailed to, died in our place, and broke Sheol wide open on that Sunday morning by defeating Death and Hades so that we could choose life rather than death.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Christianity is not a religion it is a personal relationship with the Savior and LORD. Not mans attempt to get to heaven despite God, But Gods attempt to reach down to fallen Man this makes a world of difference, it’s not rules as the legalist (Pharisee)or its not a feel good as the Saducee says and this is why they conspired because He was a threat to their power. The Roman procurator reacted only because he feared the Pharisees would begin another riot and 10,000 to 20,000 people would be killed and he had already had trouble with Ceaser, and didn’t want Rome to recall him. So he listened to the crowd yelling “Crucify Him”. If you had been there that day and if I had been there we both would have been shouting with the mob"Crucify Him” and when Pilate said I find no reason He is innocent they, and we would have yell all the louder “Cricify Him”

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 15, 2009 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment

Oh, one more thing…

Don’t you all think we all ought to celebrate the public beating and insulting of the morally deficient women in Islamabad by the morally-correct-in-every-way Taliban.  Of course, we all know not one of the men there, or anywhere, are ever immoral.  The rest of the world must not say a mumblin’ word.  For if there is no universal morality, the unholy lot of those women, as well as all women everywhere, must be completely disregarded.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

The issue about father and son Shaeffer stings you OM.  A personal thing and obviously a life-affecting one.  One you seem to have worked out for yourself.  I am not familiar with either father or son.  I think the fuss over Dominionism is overblown.  It reminds me of those who yap and scream about the Illuminati.  All comic book stuff far as I am concerned.  The Shaeffers were not the center of my last comments so if I left out any detail about either of them, it was because they are not important to me.  More important ideas than they are was what it was about in my estimation. 

There are different kinds of killing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc7CTBoC_yo&feature=related

To deal with the issue of abortion in a reasonable way we have to assume that if we are participating in a public forum, and debate, we will respond with our rational mind, because as we will soon discover, there will be a spectrum of views on the subject.

It seems to be a huge issue worthy of discussion here.

What is morality and is there such a thing as universal morality?  I am sure many of the TD participants already know this story, but it won’t hurt to remind you or inform those who never did read it.  In his 1729 satirical essay, A Modest Proposal, Jonathan Swift proposed that the people of Ireland eat babies.  The subtitle of his modest proposal is: For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland From Being A Burden to Their Parents or Country, and For Making Them Beneficial to The Public.  At the time Ireland was drastically poor and was still part of England. Most were Roman Catholics and worked as agri laborers or as tenant farmers.  The ruling landowner class were usually Protestants, many of which were not born in Ireland and did not even live there permanently.  Labor was cheap and plentiful so anyone who lost their job was easily replaced.  There was no safety net like social security, and starvation was standard, prevalent is the better word.  Furthermore, in living memory at that time, the Irish horrifyingly had been driven to cannibalism.  What Swift actually proposed was a set of facts and details showing that there was a surplus of children who could not be fed and would starve to death.  He had thought of the idea of selling them into slavery, not because it would be immoral, but because children below 12 years of age were not salable.  He developed his scheme of breeding children from a shocking story that supposedly an American conveyed that a healthy child reaching the age of 1 years old is “a most delicious, nourishing and wholesome Food, whether Stewed, roasted, Baked or Boyled.” He also reasoned that, as Catholics seem to breed more rapidly than Protestants, his scheme will help reduce their numbers - as most of the children sold for food will be “Papists”, as he called them.  Further, he suggested that some purchasers will not only wish to eat the children, but will flay the skin and make gloves or boots from it, as from a fine leather.

Before concluding he advised people not to suggest other solutions such as taxing absentee landlords, encouraging the domestic economy by buying Irish goods (no free-trade agreements), of discouraging pride, vanity, idleness and gambling, and definitely not to expect the wealthy to be more compassionate to the poor. He argued finally, that an early death would have been preferable to the misery many poor people experience in their adult lives. And he claimed to be quite impartial, because his oldest child was nine and his wife past child-bearing - so that he would not be able to make any profit by selling his own children.

My question is what part of the proposal is immoral?

Because Morals are defined as?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 15, 2009 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment

“morals are “purely” dependent upon place and time”:

Sounds more like an excuse for deviations from the accepted norm?  It would seem a clear definition of morals is in order. 

Accepted morals compared to unaccepted? Who does the defining? Religion, government, the local or not so local madam, society or all of the above?  Morals, would seem more relative to the individual according to ones learning or indoctrinations, of how morals are accepted or tend to be accepted in society.  This could be place in the quote above? 

Time, do morals change with time or does time change morals?  Interesting concept, morals becomes meaningless without a clear definition of the word itself, if morals change with time, they are no longer morals? Either way morals are no longer original morals, so acceptance is the defined moral. This could be timed, but seems to be place again. 

If the definition of morals is not clear, what ever morals are dependint on is irrelevant.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 15, 2009 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous: His father,  Francis Shaeffer, was the well-known American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor.

Shenonymous forgot to add the most important part of his bio. I will amend it for you although it might throw Night-Gaunt into a panic. Old Francis Shaeffer was one of the first “Dominionists”! The old man was great and not a Dominionist. His writings were very helpful to me. The son did some foolish things and continues to do foolish things now. The son could be called a Dominionist.

Regarding the son, he was a thorn in my side way back when. I was a new Christian in college and in med school, trying to negotiate with a liberal establishment which controlled important checkpoints, and they were terrified of me because of what he was doing. I had to answer for the all the stupid things young Frank said and did in the old days when he was so ‘conservative’ and so sure of himself. His father warned against that but young Frank was full of venom towards people like me because we werent ‘faithful enough’. I would like to remind Frank of that if I could somehow. Back then i just sort of ignored Frank and loved his dad.

Now Frank is ‘liberal’ and surprise! he is so sure of himself all over again. I followed his blog at HuffPo for months. Now he mocks people like me for being too faithful. Some of his articles have the same “I run rough shod over those who disagree” quality that his old stuff had. The exact same limited intelligence and lack of concern. Because the harder he tears up his enemies, the more his new book will sell. So his new writings at HuffPo are full of venom towards people like me.

No surprise that he would mouth the word “Other” now. He always knew how to use the correct buzzword for his audience.

He aims to be a thorn in my side again, only he has hopped to my other flank. It cant hurt me now. Its just the principle of the thing. But what burns me the most is that he betrays trust by announcing things that famous Christians asked or confessed to his father as a pastor. All for the sake of boosting book sales and making himself a hero to his new friends, such as those at NPR.

By the way, the old man Francis Shaeffer couldnt get on NPR.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 15, 2009 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment

From an NPR interview of Frank Schaeffer, whose parents, Francis and Edith, were best-selling authors who were instrumental in linking the evangelical community with the anti-abortion movement.  His father,  Francis Shaeffer, was the well-known American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor.

The son who has had some sort of epiphany had a lot to say that [after coming of age as an evangelist and helping to organize religious fundamentalists politically, Schaeffer had a crisis of faith: Though he is pro-life, he decided that abortion should remain legal.

Shortly after the presidential election, Schaeffer wrote an open letter on the Huffington Post explaining his views and urging President-elect Barack Obama to support programs that provide care for pregnant women and reduce the number of abortions. In the letter, Schaeffer disassociated himself from his former politics, writing, “The pro-life cause poisoned many of us who were part of it. Me included. It led to self-righteous hubris that extended to a general attitude of hate toward the ‘other.’”

This interview and another article on HP that might be interesting on the issue of abortion: 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97998654
Pro-Life — And In Favor Of Keeping Abortion Legal

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/why-im-prolife-and-pro_b_85636.html
Why I’m Pro-life and Pro-Obama

Before anyone can argue for or against abortion, it seems clear that an understanding of a few ideas need to take place.  What is morality?  What exactly is belief?  What kind of belief is faith?  What is religious faith?  These are four guides for human behavior and no amount of argument will be relevant unless a lucid examination is made of these.  The first is a code of conduct, how one ought to behave, the next three can each be considered as an accumulation of assumed truths.

For who would be more appropriate than the Marquis de Sade to note that morals are “purely” dependent upon place and time:
“Similar to the concepts of virtue and vice,
[justice and injustice] are purely local and geographical;
that which is vicious in Paris turns up, as we know,
a virtue in Peking, and it is quite the same thing here;
that which is just in Isfahan
they call unjust in Copenhagen.
Amidst these manifold variations
do we discover anything constant?”

Even so, even if what he said were true, even if there is a manacle of relativity to the notion of right and wrong, and even if it has to be asked what makes things right and wrong, the larger question is to ask ourselves, constantly, how should we live and why should we live that way?

Seems like much more discussion is ordered.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 15, 2009 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

Well OzarkMichael many of our terrorist acts have been done by Christians attacking those they consider liberals or communists who approve of women controlling their bodies beyond the mere baby factory role forced on them by others. Something which has been mostly ignored in this country for many years.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 15, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Homeland Securities to watchout for Home grown Terrorist of the Conservatives

Yeah i heard about this. Especially those of us against abortion are to be considered potential terrorists now.

Ah well. American Christians need to be put down a bit, dont we? Need to be put in our place. Except one isnt quite sure what our place will be yet.

It sounds to me like Obama foresees a need to quell dissent. It should make you wonder what Obama has planned on the abortion front. No doubt something that most of you will applaud. 

Whatever it is, it will be called something nice. Something like “Universal Obstetrical Contingency Operations”. The performance of these operations will be forced upon doctors and nurses who dont want to perform them. In fact that little bit of force for the sake of ‘choice’ was proposed by Obama already.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 15, 2009 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, it was the Assassins led and created by the legendary Hassan al-Assin* whose secret group terrorized the area for 200 years till the Mongols arrived and wiped them out. For the new recruits they were given a sophorific then removed to a secret place where cool air wafted, sweet water flowed and voluptuous women cavorted amid where luscious green plants grew (Heaven) then they fell asleep again and found themselves back with the Assassins of the desert where they pledged their lives to the cause since they saw a glimpse of their reward in the after life. Very effective in what they did due to utter and unshakable loyalty and dedication to their cause. How could they not?

I admit any mistakes in this, just using my own memory, couldn’t find any of my notes at this time. Corrections are appreciated.

Folktruther the ‘gault’ instead of ‘gaunt’ was it a reference to John Gault? Or do you even know?

*Some say where we got the words “assassin” and “hashish” (opium) from originally.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 15, 2009 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

My god, but not yours, makes sense to me!

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 15, 2009 at 7:15 am Link to this comment

It’s strange how D.H.S director Janet Napolitano has commissioned a great mind doctor to tell Homeland Securities to watchout for Home grown Terrorist of the Conservatives that we may try to enlist returning soldier for our nefarious ways the new terrorism on the right. Does she mean the 200,000 American Nazi’s, and Klansman or is she using the same logic that sent Justice Department spies into the churches in the mid 1990’s that claimed Conservative Christians were and are more dangerious than the Radical Facist Muslem. This from the woman that refused to call Terrorism what it is and called terrorism “man made desasters” come on the mental health doc’s are so full of bull its disgusting everything is someone elses fault so we are all the victims what bologna. I am fat because I have a weakness I have trouble pulling away from the table no one holds a gun to my head and say eat until you die. So The Mental health excuse is bull, we are only victims when we believe the Mental mind doc’s who by the way committ suicide more than anyother profession so by all means listen to the shrinks and become as fouled up as they are.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. They on the left want everyone to believe that we are all victims so they can minipulate all those who believe that mumbojumbo and seperate the rest of us out and place us in reeducation camps to watch. Now this is a generality so not every lib is in their connor but quite a few have bought the lie of Secular progressivism. So I will believe in Jesus not some falibale shrink and I will repeat you don’t have to become a believer in Christ it is a personal decission. And as for the man made religion it is no better than the shrinks kill the innocent for Allah, or Vishnue, or Shiva, our the Great Spirit excetra…

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 14, 2009 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, April 14 at 7:11 pm #

Inherit, trith is right in regard to you.  If you don’t change your evil ways before you stand before the White Throne Of Judgement, a Loving and Merciful God with throw your sorry ass into the Great Lake OF Fire, and inflict hidious tortures on you for all Eternity.  And it will all be your own fault.

I’m sorry Night-Gault, I can’t help it.
***************************************************

I’ll know he’s really sadistic if, in a Sartrian twist, he has you there with me, talking about single boobs till time ends…..OTOH, if you are not there I’ll figure that even for the bleakest of sinners he has SOME mercy!

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 14, 2009 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

Now that I have paid fealty to our guvamint and am supporting the stimulus by submitting my tax returns, I will return to the virginal discussion on virgins.

The number 72 came from a hadith (2,562 traditional stories not attributed directly to Muhammad) in the Imam at-Tirmidhi collection in his “Sunan” (Volume IV, Chapters, on “The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah;” by the Messenger of Allah”, chapter 21: “About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven”, hadith 2687); also quoted in Ibn Kathir’s writings, Tafsir, a commentary on the Qur’an of the Surah Qur’an 55:72 which says as reported in “How Many Wives Will The Believers Have In Paradise? - by Islamic scholar Gibril Haddad: 

“It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham ‘Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa’id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad saying, ‘The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri (virgins); over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San’a.”  Another quote from the Islamist apologetics: 

“Nothing in the Qur’an specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, “The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby.”

If you ask ordinary people what they know about Islam, you will get some haphazard responses. In general, people know that Muslims worship Allah, but know little else. Many will guess at it, some such as, ‘Islam is an Arab religion” or “Islam is about Jihad” not even knowing what it means thinking it means holy war.  “Terrorists are promised 72 virgin women when they die” is one of those ideas. 

The “72 virgins” idea is probably one of the most enchanting ideas that people seem to remember about Islam, especially the men, for who wouldn’t want unmolested woman that they themselves can molest!? Is there really anything more in Paradise than se and physical pleasures?  What more would one want of Paradise?  Isn’t that the promise of Islam? The rewards of Jannah?  Oh yes, unlimited food of ones choice (a very good restaurant will be there), riches because in Paradise one needs riches, and all your wishes come true?  Like what?  A ride on the Disney train with Mickey? 

Take a look at the Suras (56:17-24), (56:35-38), (55:56)

Hey, women aren’t totally left out: A man in paradise will get numerous female servants for himself, while a woman would get male servants. The Qur’an says that women shall be compensated just as well and says about the believers that “they” (the gender unspecified) shall also (4:40, but especially 57)
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZXQerkrJE
72 Virgins For Terrorists

Distilled water?  My goodness.  FYI: The entire Sura 4, The Women, is quite revealing.

Here is a little diversion:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6047638.ece

That elephant in the background with a confederate cap on is odd.

Report this

By Folktruther, April 14, 2009 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, trith is right in regard to you.  If you don’t change your evil ways before you stand before the White Throne Of Judgement, a Loving and Merciful God with throw your sorry ass into the Great Lake OF Fire, and inflict hidious tortures on you for all Eternity.  And it will all be your own fault.

I’m sorry Night-Gault, I can’t help it.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 14, 2009 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

A little ways back on topic, though that is not a proclamation, The Palestine Chronicle 4/10/09 reports (nothing really new) a continued but heightened turbulence in Egypt over the presence of 49 members of the Shiite Hezbollah terrorist organization who are accused of fomenting renewed violence for the predominantly Sunni country.  Hezbollah is responsible for much murder in the world, and of Muhammad Anwar Al Sadat who was the President of Egypt in 1981.  Interestingly enough the widow of the assassinated President, Madame Jehan Sadat , was on the Jon Stewart show a few days ago who is decidedly on a personal mission of peace having written a book about the possibility of peace, (who isn’t writing books these days?).  While it seems a worthy cause, since no amount of reminding that humans are by nature violent beasts, it is still naive to think a book will jar the immorality of war and destruction it brings to both human bodies and the planet, out of its top berth.  It is an imperative for her to convince the leaders of the peoples involved.  Most of the people in the Middle East, I would bet, do not read or at the most, don’t read books like hers, but rather only read graffiti and listen to foaming at the mouth slogans.

Hezbollah leader Nasrallah accuses, “The Egyptian regime is the one that should be condemned because it is the one working day and night to destroy the tunnels, which are the one artery that supplies Gaza with life,” he added. (Isn’t it guns and ammunitions he means by the word ‘life’?)

Hezbollah confirmed on Friday that a man Egypt is holding on suspicion of planning attacks there is a member of the Lebanese Shiite movement, but denied seeking to destabilize the country.  (Can anyone believe that? of anyone from Hezbollah?)

4/12/09 Should anyone be amazed that Palestinian security officials said on Sunday that they had found a Hamas bomb-making factory underneath a mosque in the occupied West Bank with bombs “ready to use?”  Shall we not start expecting an eruption of extraordinary violence now in the West Bank?  Will the UN do anything?  No!

More to say on the 71 virgins in a bit (one just jumped out of that idea of heaven having been pirated by moral consciousness).

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 14, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

<i>“t is not God who sends anyone to Hades, and yet to come Hell, Hades is like the holding cells in a jail it is not the final place number one most of those names given mean the place of the dead until the final showdown by the way. Paradise, Sheol, Elysia, are the side those who deserve to go to heaven rest until the final showdown its the midway point on the trip to Eternity.”,/i>—-Truthnotlies

Where do you get that interpretation? My reading shows that everyone who is dead stays dead till the judgment then resurrection, stransmorgification into new, immortal bodies then to either eternal torment or eternal orgasm er, bliss as the eternal dictator allows under ‘his’ rules. In a rigged system your decision isn’t your choice but another’s. Especially one who is vindictive, jealous, monomaniacal & all powerful. Rather stiff torture forever for mortal transgressions isn’t it?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 14, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

Defining life with a paper bag over ones head, must limit vision beyond a certain point? Expecting others, to believe, such pontifications from profound blindness is most amusing. One suggestion, eye holes.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 14, 2009 at 8:31 am Link to this comment

Eternity on Earth already exists.  The two Laws of Thermodynamics tells us that.  It is just that the human mind as it occurs in large populations cannot fathom that.  Maybe you just need a “good” ticket.  Now what could that mean?  Trithoverlies thinks he has the answers.  But from my finely fettled bank of infinite wisdom, I would say a good ticket is to come to mental health.  Trith might say that is through Jesus Christ, others have different solutions equally damaging to mental health that religions cause.  A good (meaning large, perhaps even through one’s lifetime) dose of self-reflection on what it means to be a moral human being might help if that could be sold wholesale. The idea transcends any ethnicity, religious based or not, and any economic strata.  Unfortunately, it cannot be bottled in cans of Juicy Juice or invested in Barbie Dolls.  Guys would prefer blow up dolls or ones who walk the streets.  Or women with ugly dispositions due to the resentment of being seen as lower than groveling animals throughout history look for solace in well-manicured nails while whining to their manicurists that men have no morals.  It might be a good investment to distribute bumper stickers that say “Reflect On What It Means To Be A Moral Human Being.”  Oops, too long.  Maybe a bigger format like a poster?  Or write a book and get on the Jon Stewart show to promote it.  Maybe we can get Joe and Mika to repeat it on MSNBC every morning????  I doubt it.  They might have to do it themselves.  Or maybe manufacturers can print it on every can of Juicy Juice and on the foreheads of Barbie Dolls.

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 14, 2009 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

It is not God who sends anyone to hades, and yet to come Hell, Hades is like the holding cells in a jail it is not the final place number one most of those names given mean the place of the dead until the final showdown by the way. Paridise, Sheol, Elysia, are the side those who deserve to go to heaven rest until the final showdown its the midway point on the trip to Eternity.  We in the west have made it a artform to blame your wrongs on someone else so stop right there. GOD DOESN’T SEND ANYONE TO HELL YOU CHOOSE TO GO THERE OVER THE OUTSTREACHED NAIL SCARED HANDS OF JESUS CHRIST SO DON’T BLAME HIM FOR YOUR OWN BAD CHOICES.  Go to any prison and start asking the prisoners why they are in prison you will get the following answers. I had no father to guide me, I was abused as a child, I was never taught that you could get out of a fight, I was sexually abused, millions have all these same excuses but never end up in prison so STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR YOU POOR DECISSIONS THEY ARE YOURS AND NO ONE HOLDS A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND SAY YOU MUST SELL DRUGS, OR YOU MUST STEAL OR YOU MUST RAPE HER, ARE MURDER HIM. I am fed up to the top of my head with hearing every excuse imaginable as to why someone made bad choices. It is time that Americans, and Europeans stood up and took responsability for their actions good or bad.
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 14, 2009 at 7:38 am Link to this comment

Well Truthnotlies why if you are a Christian you and others use Greek religious concepts like the eponymous ‘Hades’ which is run by Hades where all the various places the dead go from the Elysian (heaven) fields to Tartarus (Sheol or Hell). In Roman he is Pluto. Guarded by the three headed dog Cerebrus, facing in, greeted by his snake tail hiss, for anyone who goes in will get torn apart if they try to leave. Only Hercules made it out against Hades’ wishes. So are you a Christian pagan now Truthnotlies? Hel is the ruler of the Scandinavian land of the dead. She is a Nordic babe of the dead! Hel or hell as it is used isn’t from Christian tradition anymore than Hades but has been taken and adopted by them as a convenience. And wasn’t sheol a place bereft of God’s presence (like a rubbish tip) and that was what the alienation was, not being alone from others like them? The only place in the universe where God’s force was absent, like back ground radiation.

I would recommend you expand your reading material to other religions just to have a handle on your own. Also remember that ‘god’ isn’t a name or proper name it actually means to ‘invoke a deity to come’ but doesn’t mean one.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 14, 2009 at 4:23 am Link to this comment

Yet again, Truthoverlies, it all comes down to the simple concept of every religious fanatic in every religion:

Believe as I do or MY God(s) will damn you.

You all claim to be right. You all claim the others are wrong, blasphemous, idolaters, and cursed. And you all historically murdered anyone who challenged that.

Then you post this:
P.S. Have you ever looked on a woman and lusted over her, Jesus says you are an adulterer at heart, you ever hated anyone than you are a murderer at heart, ever stolen anything, Lied, cursed and disobeyed your parents if the answer is yes read what James says in James 2:10 than read Romans 3:10; 3:23; and 6:23.
*************************

I find this to be the most disturbing concept in Christianity, so disturbing I suspect it’s a mis-interpretation, because it CONTRADICTS forgiveness, and self-forgiveness.

To want to do an act we all agree is wrong (cheating, lying, stealing, murdering), and by force of personal will and moral courage to stop yourself and say “No. I will not do that.” gets no kudos.  This makes no sense that you are STILL considered to have done these terrible things.

HOWEVER (I’m not a biblical scholar and certainly not an NT scholar) what IS consistent is if your sole reason for not committing those crimes is simple fear of retribution—you’ll be flogged, have your hands or testicles amputated, be hanged, fined, whatever. So the desire not to commit the act is by coercion, rather than by moral choice.

Yet somehow Christians again and again miss this and try to pretend in their hearts they don’t have these desires.  Moral courage isn’t not having these desires, it is MASTERING them.

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 13, 2009 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

Nietzsche probably does not agree with you for if he is in hades, Hell is yet to come he will nether be speaking to are seeing others Hades and in the end hell will be an Individual place as Jesus told of Hades in the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 you should read it. It also is the two subjects Jesus most talked about, the Kingdom and Hell He seemed to think Hell was an important subject useing word like gnashing of teeth, Eternal Torment, a place where the worm never dies, and Outer Darkness. If Heaven is real than so is Hell but Hell is not a party, it is a place of Eternal Torment. If I’m right you will lose if I am wrong you still lose because there will never be justice in this world. I studied this for years always believing that a Good God would never send someone to hell I had the wrong prespective as I will say you probably do to, it’s all superstition, or a crutch but I think of What Richard Wormbrandt went through it’s a very poor crutch. I saw My great uncle who in 75 years never darkened the door of a church, leave this world screaming its true Oh No the burning, than I watched My mother pass with a look of peace and joy because she knew without a doubt where she was going and why she was going there. It wasn’t long before I heard the same word I have used before God doesn’t send anyone to hell they choose it. At the Great White Thrown Judgment at the end of time Jesus will sit in judgment of all who rejected Him and with a sad expression He may say to them “not MY Will but your will be done” as they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for eternity. If you die without choosing you have chosen if you die having rejected Him you have chosen. When I die I know where I am going and why I’m going there, and its not because I deserve it. Its because God’s grace covers me because I chose to accept Him as My LORD and SAVIOR. Many cry out for the Savour but refuse to give Him Lordship this is why we have Hipocrits in the church.  I heard an old country preacher one time say “I would rather be in Church with a few Hipocrites than in Hades where they are all Hipocrites” so take it or leave it. It is your decission to make I can’t make it for you all I can do is point the way. Like Pilate when He said “what shall I do with Jesus”, you can be one of the crowd shouting Crucify Him in rejection, or you can accept that He took your place loaded with all your transgressions and accept His offer of Grace (Gods Riches At Christ Expense). But it is your choice to make. If I’m right you lose everything where as if I’m wrong I lose nothing. All your good works without Christ will avail you of nothing all the rituals you do will avail you of nothing. All the suffering you go through will avail you of nothing It is only what you do with Jesus that can change your eternal destination period.
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. Have you ever looked on a woman and lusted over her, Jesus says you are an adulterer at heart, you ever hated anyone than you are a murderer at heart, ever stolen anything, Lied, cursed and disobeyed your parents if the answer is yes read what James says in James 2:10 than read Romans 3:10; 3:23; and 6:23.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 13, 2009 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

Good one ITW, it is hard to get a good drum roll on a blog.

You know if everyone tried a little bit harder, why couldn’t our world be eternity? Only difference would be in our world, we would have to include the cease to exist part. So all we need to do is find some virgins and fluffy clouds to get started. 

Comprehensions of eternity may vary from person to person, but really; attempting to explain eternity seems similar to attempting to define infinity?

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 13, 2009 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

See, N-G, FolkTruther is hung up on boobs.  His mother must have forced him to drink from a cup and wouldn’t let him suckle, even from the bottles of the day.  This has left him with a deep desire to use the word “boob” constantly, whether appropriately or not.

What gets weirder is despite his obvious boob fetish, he doesn’t see them in pairs, as a lovely part of the female anatomy.

Either that or his “folks” figured he’d get the most “truth” by having his brain rotted by the…
(wait for it…)
.
.
.
.
boob-tube.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 13, 2009 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment

You can buy a bobble-head doll of almost any famous person.

I hear they have one of Edmund Burke at Ebay and the current bid is $17.93

Report this

By Folktruther, April 13, 2009 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Night-Guant- Alysia (allowing for my eccentric spelling) is one of the Wikapedia transliterations of Rand’s name.

I am insulting because everytime I see a perceptive historical comment by Inherit I get irritated that he makes statements like: the whole world is anti-semtiic (including, no doubt, the Inidians Of the Amereicas, the Uigars of China and the Africans.)

Or that socialism instills anti-semitism. Or that I hate all Jews. He is better than that, but since he apparently converses mostly with comrade boobs, these comments are acceptable.  I am trying to jolt him out of his boobery.

But I’m sorry they offend you.  We more or less have just gotten in the habit of insulting each other so we tend not to notice it much.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 13, 2009 at 11:44 am Link to this comment

The problem with Truthnotlies “choice” is that it is one of those forced ones. You can’t opt out of the system rigged against you, by the master rigger himself. I’m with Nietzsche, the most interesting people will be in Hell. Where the revolutionists will be residing for moving against “god given authority.” While the sparsely filled Heaven will be full of the most boring stuck up and pious to a fault people you would never want to be around. Much less to the never ending of time itself. And you can never leave or commit suicide! But then that is Heaven for some and Hell for others.

FolkTruther, must you be so insulting? Such a bad habit that too many are adopting. Can’t you argue without sullying you answer with actual use of your brain beyond the easy defamation? I stress ‘easy’ because it takes little brain power to come up with what you did. It is “Alice” not “Alycia” so you can correct that. Please correct me when I am wrong, please? Only those with their “cup full” can take no more. Mine never is full.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 13, 2009 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, April 13 at 11:49 am #

She, this is much worse than I had thought. If these clowns arrive without their umbilicus they will have trouble keeping inventory of anything over 11. Why 72, where do these numbers come from, we know it is not the Mrs America pageant, because we only have 52 states?  If I was in charge of cloning for the virgins for these guys, (I suppose they are supposed to be female?), I would clone 72 Ann Colter’s for them. Do virgins in entity wear Burkas?  What if the virgins turned out to be 72 Catholic Nuns armed with split bamboo sticks? Split bamboo makes a nice loud slapping noise, much more dramatic, but not really painful.  I love the part in the movie, “The Blue’s Brothers” when they visit the Penguin a Catholic Nun.  Instead of bamboo she used a ruler on the guys. Rulers just would not last as long in eternity.
*********************************************

72 Ann Coultergeists???? And I thought poor Barbara Mikulski was ugly—compared to that 72 Anns is…Well, let’s just say Dante needs another circle to his hell.

Hey! FT: What’s up with this boob fetish of yours?  Your mom forced you to drink milk from a cup at 2 months old or something? Didn’t let you suckle? Not even on a bottle? So now you are all hung up on boobs.  Can’t you find a Juggs or D-Cup magazine at your local cheesy news-stand?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 13, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

She, this is much worse than I had thought. If these clowns arrive without their umbilicus they will have trouble keeping inventory of anything over 11. Why 72, where do these numbers come from, we know it is not the Mrs America pageant, because we only have 52 states?  If I was in charge of cloning for the virgins for these guys, (I suppose they are supposed to be female?), I would clone 72 Ann Colter’s for them. Do virgins in entity wear Burkas?  What if the virgins turned out to be 72 Catholic Nuns armed with split bamboo sticks? Split bamboo makes a nice loud slapping noise, much more dramatic, but not really painful.  I love the part in the movie, “The Blue’s Brothers” when they visit the Penguin a Catholic Nun.  Instead of bamboo she used a ruler on the guys. Rulers just would not last as long in eternity.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 13, 2009 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies says “the most important question you will answer is where you will spend eternity.”  How do you, Trith, envision that eternity?  Can you give it any description beyond some vague knowledge that it is there?  And if there is a there, where is the there? 

It is not a discussion ITW.  Trithoverlies merely makes pronouncements.  He has his litany and he’s sticking to it!

Just in case no one else tells you Leefeller, it is 72 virgins!  Thing is I know for a fact that it is the same 72 virgins recycled for every idiot who arrives, and there are only idiots that do arrive.  Like how many virgins do you think there are in the universe?  Exactly 72.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 12, 2009 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Talk about eternity, what is with the 27 virgins? Does that mean they have to remain virgins, so these 27 virgins are like the Hawaii Aloha girls?  The fact that some harry assed clowns believe they will spend eternity with 27 virgins, is not the eternity I would wish on my most hated enemy.

I would what to know what kind of personality do they have, do they even have a brain, and can they cook maybe they do not need to cook in entity?  Why 27?  The whole virgin thing is an overrated scam, who really cares?  Seems someone is being sold a bill of goods, another eternity scam. By the way how long is entirety anyway, they get you all fired up with this stupid virgin thing and then you find yourself dropping down a trap door.

What about women, when they go to etrinty, are they greeted by some clown who wants to know if they are virgins? 

It would be really funny if the guys show up to eternity and find out they are turned into the virgins, now I find that amusing.

Report this

By Folktruther, April 12, 2009 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, I don’t understand how you can argue American history so cogently and still be such a boob.  It must be that you imbibed the bullshit preconceptions of American ideology as well as Zionist ideology. And of course there is-heh, heh, heh- Alycia Rosenbaum, with a dollar sign tattooed on her ass.

I always meant to take a trip to the California institute of boobology, where they no doubt have a intensive research project going on the question of your boobiness.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 12, 2009 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies, April 12 at 7:35 pm #

Whether You believe it our not the most important question you will answer is where you will spend eternity. If you don’t answer that one right it doesn’t matter what college you attend….....
*****************************************

Oh, NO!!!!! We’re Back to.
.
.
.
“Believe as I do OR GOD WILL DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!

That’s a useless discussion.

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 12, 2009 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

Whether You believe it our not the most important question you will answer is where you will spend eternity. If you don’t answer that one right it doesn’t matter what college you attend, it doesn’t matter who you marry it doesn’t matter what occupation you will follow all these are important only for a short time while where you spend eternity matters for all times. Married to the wrong person you can survive, being in the wrong profession you can survive, going to the wrong College you can survive, but choosing the wrong eternal destination is forever. This is why it’s the most immportant question anyone will answer. You will go to one of two places and God would not be fair if you woke up in heaven next to Hitler, or Stalin, if God turnned a blind eye at evil there would be no justice.  So you can say it’s mean that God allows you to choose but He would not be God if He forced you to do His will. This is completetly differant than Allah who forced billions to convert, or die over the last 1371 years.  From 350 A.D. till the 1650’s for about 1300 years their was a simular move in Europe by the Holy Catholic Church, and from the 1510 A.D. till 1650 A.D.Protestant movements recognized by the states Anglican, Luthern, Eastern Orthodoxie, and the Presbyterian Churches could force you to some extent to convert, but none of that actually made you a Christian it made you a Lutherian excetra…  No one forcibly converted if they never came to believe in Jesus Christ as their LORD, And SAVIOR made it into heaven. Forced converssions do not make one a Christian, it is a personal Free choice offered by Christ to all, but few ever accept it. So the next time you see the guy down the block that goes to church every Sunday but lives for the devil every other day don’t compare Him with your self He is a Hipocrite and his master is not the savior. But if the guy down the street says he is a Christian and is always going the extra mile for those less fortunate than my friend you may be in the presents of a real Christian.
              Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                  John R. Bloxson Jr.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 12, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

There is no virtue in being unfair, OzarkMichael. It undermines all efforts to find the truth and live with it. I too enjoy a good argument, particularly when utter respect rules the game (in the sense of a Wittgensteinian game. Nothing sinister is intended!). 

Each issue being opened here has a separate life of its own and hence its own merits.  I didn’t say “all” have the same valuation or imperatives.  You have to use the same rules of “one, some, and all” on me as you impose on Night-Gaunt. I cannot answer the question about capital punishment since although it is a liberal’s position to be against it, I find it counterintuitive to deterrents for heinous violence.  I have not yet in my own mind determined the value or demerits of capital punishment.  I wish to see more in public arguments for and against.  I realize there have been and would still be innocent people executed, but I do not find that compelling or sufficient reason to end the practice.

With respect to women’s rights to their own body, I have stated my position on that several times and to reinforce it, women have the inalienable right to their own body, pregnant or not with a reservation.  Pregnancy is not a matter of virgin births.  It happens because a male sperm impregnates a female, at least in the human animal!  That means a male is equally responsible for a pregnancy as the female who is pregnant.  Little to nothing is done to males in this society, which I find completely and excessively patriarchally wrong.  Furthermore a female who is impregnated against her will ought not to be made to carry a fetus to term but to be able to abort it as soon as healthily possible.  I do not think a female ought to get pregnant irresponsibly. If she is of a legal age to be sexually active, and knows there is a chance for pregnancy, then she is responsible for it equally with the male who impregnates her. There are reasonable means to prevent pregnancies beyond abstention.  In the case of accidental pregnancy where devices for prevention fail, both parents are responsible for the dispensation, either abortion or give birth.  There will always be exceptions which society must decide how to handle. Under these limitations, all other rights to her own body remains sacrosanct. 

I do not hold the belief that embryonic cell research is wrong or that the cells involved constitutes an individual that results in murder when those cells are utilized for the health of humans needing that kind of therapy. When the cells achieve, not approach, but achieve personhood is debatable I realize.  Discussion needs to be on the table so that a clear understanding within our society is had.  Nothing less is acceptable to me.  I do not agree with the Catholic Church that cloning is wrong.  I do believe however, humans have a responsibility to not create individuals for the sole purpose of harvesting them as body parts nor to create a superhuman race.  However, there also has to be some conventional agreement what kinds of features would be desirable for healthy enhancement for a baby to be brought into this world.  Such as free against certain genetic diseases, onset of diseases such as diabetes, Alzheimer’s, Regarding homosexuality: I do not believe there is an edict in any holy book that ought to control what constitutes partnership among human beings. Naturally since I do not hold that any holy book has any validity I realize I am biased.  I live in a society, which means the issue needs “objective” debate. 

Should religious points of view be in the public arena?  No.  I do not believe it is the function of religion nor religious beliefs control what a population ought to do, especially a mixed population that has a variety of beliefs about the nature of reality.

There are serious issues about freedoms that involve submission that are attitudinal, meaning bear value judgment that are important but they can wait for another time.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 12, 2009 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

shenonymous says: While the idea of torture could be linked to a character called the Grand Inquisitor since the Spanish Inquisition nortoriously engaged in such actions, that is not the personality found in The Brothers K.  To be aghast at that portrayal smacks of duplicity. Feigning outrage.  Neat strategy.  But it shows preconditioning and predictability of a hunter for minutia against the Left.

As usual, shenonymous does well. I have to say that i enjoy arguing with you because you are very tough and very smart. The hunter became the hunted. Also you are very fair when you say:

Not that the Left is without stain.  Oh, indeed they are. 

And then you present your own conclusion, the purpose of which is not to join any Contingent, but to state your own individual point of view:

This article is going as much nowhere as the Bishop is.  The walking out of church members shows that.

But I need to find something to disagree with. I cant go down without a fight. So i found this:

Of course the issues have “serious” consequence.  It flies in the face of reason and secular morality which is diametrically opposed to that of the Christians Catholics and Protestant alike.

There is a double opposition in what you wrote. I am not sure what you meant. It seems like you are saying that political positions which the Bishop took have bad consequences and fly in the face of reason. If so, does that include when the Bishop stood against capital punishment?

There are times when churches align with Liberal causes. When that happens it is common for the Left to applaud church participation in public affairs. Reason, sweetness and light prevail. Everyone holds hands and sings, ‘we shall overcome’ together.  I have nothing against that, by the way.

However, if the cause is on the political Right, suddenly a wall of separation springs up. Suddenly we are flying in the face of reason. It becomes inappropriate for a religious point of view to have any public impact.

I object to that line of reasoning. This is where we might disagree, shenonymous.

‘Proving’ that a religious point of view should not be in the public arena is what talk2action is all about. 

That is what the article “Grand Inquisitor” typifies.

We start with a Bishop in the Catholic Church who is supposed to deal with doctrine, it is part of his job. Whether the doctrine is true or not i let pass. Whether he does his job well or not I will not comment upon. But I will say that church governance is not about allowing all points of view an equal say.

Cocozzelli insists the Bishop somehow portends a terrible development and a threat to democracy.  I paraphrase Cocozelli: “and thats why these people are so dangerous that they cant be allowed to influence public affairs.”


No matter what excuse anyone uses for pushing the religious right out of public affairs, it is a powerplay. This has been going on for 25 years now. Please remember that somebody somewhere gains power to the extent that it succeeds. It is a very very dangerous game, and no one should be playing it against anyone else in this country.

As always, shenon, ty for writing a challenging post. I should comment on all your posts, because your insights deserve that.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 12, 2009 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

It has always been the accepted concept of imbecilic minds, to define the term liberal as synonymous;  not “shenonymous”; with Communist, pinko socialist, and this does not include progressive, for the term progressive is reserved for people full of themselves.  For the imbecilic mind,  is seems to be the conservative who gleans his ideas and opinions from the projected constant spewing of stupidity from idiots like Limbaugh. Since I believe in absolutism’s, this would cover every last one of them Limbaush listening conservitives, with absolutely no exceptions what so ever. And one can be assured all conservatives listen to Limbaugh before going to their weekly KKK meetings. 

Of course these may only be stereotyped opinions, which only local misogynists like to believe?

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, April 12, 2009 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

You guys are STILL going on and on in this back-alley discussion?  I just came back outside the kitchen for grins to see if you were all still here.  Yup….

BTW, there were two fundamental reasons for entering WWI:

1) To be able to control the peace and establish a new balance of power in Europe so that neither Britain nor especially France would dominate the Continent.  The policy of bringing Germany back into the community of nations as a key counterbalance was part of Wilson’s strategy, and it was carried through by his Rupublican successors, right up to Locarno in 1925 and Germany’s admission to the League of Nations.

2) As pointed out, especially in Melvyn Paul Leffler’s “The Elusive Quest”, the goal of most American banks was to raid and replace the British international banking system since we had money and nobody else did.  Within the US this was bitterly opposed by The House of Morgan (before it got broken up into various entities). HOM had the franchise throughout the War of being the sole conduit of American financing to the Allies, which was deeply resented.  HOM was also the only conduit for $$$ back to the US. So it was incumbent on the other banks to break HOM’s stranglehold on international financial relations.

As for the Wilson’s fine sounding words: They are crap.  He was long biased to the British when MOST Americans were indifferent.  In 1914 our history with Britain wasn’t too good.  There were still Civil War vets alive then , especially in the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic)  who remembered the UK had helped the South when THEY were fighting.  Most Americans didn’t care if Britain and France lost—many had ties to Germany. 

But when Germany took the calculated risk that unrestricted sub warfare in 1916 could starve the Allies out before the US came in, she put herself in what was ultimately a catastrophic flaw.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 12, 2009 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

Night-Gaunt said: Limbaugh, Savage and the others call ‘socialists, liberals, communists’ as ‘sick and crazy’ that ‘need to be put down’ before ‘they’ can do anything to damage the USA as it is.

I read the exact same kind of smears here at truthdig and talk2action. Only difference is its directed at conservatives and christians. But apparently thats music to your ears.

more from Night-Gaunt: But then when some of the people at one of their rallies were interviewed they all, were shown, to believe all of the propaganda about Obama. Such as he is a secret Muslim, not an American citizen etc…get the picture OzarkMichael?

You artfully went from some people at one rally… to the word ‘all’ as in ‘they all’ and ‘believe all the propaganda’. All of them believing all the propaganda. 100% of 100%

To project the ignorance of some opponents or people onto all opponents or people is the trick of the propagandist. It discredits all the opposition. It builds prejudice against people. You should be writing for talk2action, since that is what they do best.

Speaking of propaganda, this phrase is really overdone: “fascist Cheney/Bush”.  Arent you the one here who is using the extremist language? And because of your extremist language you incite yourself and others to desire extreme measures to stop us ‘fascists’. For the good of the country, right?

True, no militias or proto-militias were identified as such but maybe it is too early, hence the use of the ‘?’ is appropriate.

“Maybe it is too early”. ah.  No crime has been committed, but you approve of pasting the label onto conservatives ahead of time.

Night-Gaunt, you can identify enemies of the Republic with the acumen of a Robespierre, and you can see the potential criminality of an entire class of people with the insight of a Lenin. You would do talk2action proud.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 12, 2009 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

Did you know you could get a Thomas Paine Glow in the Dark Light Switch Plate for $6.95 on Amazon dot com?
How is it only Leefeller with his quippy homilies is the only man on this thread, and I might be the only woman who is quippy but not using homiies, speak about the despicable treatment of women throughout history up to and including today?  Could it be that TroothDig is overpopulated by patriarchical men who want their women as James Waits says, “down on their knees?”

Trithoverlies, you obviously do not understand Plato’s logic.  It is a mind-bender that is for sure, but thinking it through you would see contrary to what you believe, all men, good and bad alike seek the good.  The bad do think they are committing good.  Ask all the bad guys if they think they are doing bad.  It is simple.  If that wasn’t thought by most people you would not have any notions of absolution so cherished by your religion.  Do-badders always say, “I was doing what I thought was best for me and mine.”

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 12, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

A pivotal story for me as a teenager the chapter of the Grand Inquisitor found in Dostoyevski’s Brothers Karamazov, I am always interested in comparisons with current day public figures.  It appears that the Grand Inquisitor (GI) as used by Cocozzelli, who commendably does link it to the book and the character of the GI, is not quite to be found in Morlino (Morlino is simply not that known to be so effective).  Whether or not the allusion fits is the question and it is being claimed on this forum that it does not.  Morlino is connected with the GI by charging suppression of free-expression to stem what he sees as heresies.  Nor are humans able to assimilate the choices offered by Jesus in Christianity let alone those afforded all citizens in a liberal pluralistic democracy such a ours” arguing that today’s people also cannot handle those choices.  “...he (Morlino) recklessly suppresses free expression in the name of quelling what he deems to be heresies.  In his distrust of humanity, Bishop Morlino eerily echoes the infamous Dostoyevsky character: this modern-day Inquisitor does not believe that the most of us can handle the choices that Jesus offers in Christian thought let alone those afforded all citizens in a liberal pluralistic democracy such as ours.” 

Is it exaggeration, or not?  Outspoken Morlino, meaning preaching to his parish and sending letters to priests in his capacity as Bishop, he condemns capital punishment, gay marriage and embryonic stem-cell research,  offending some of the churchgoers and others not.  His sentiments might be worthy of a small article, but it certainly does not reflect a hike away from the Vatican’s views.  It echoes it and nothing else.  So Cocozzelli does make media hay over the political issues.  If anything, the parishioners who walked out are the ones who should have been given the press as brave enough to act in the face of the continued insanity of the Church.  Of course the issues have “serious” consequence.  It flies in the face of reason and secular morality which is diametrically opposed to that of the Christians Catholics and Protestant alike. 

Granted Cocozzelli uses inflammatory language, which is the norm for journalists who want to be noticed, also not unusual and worth only a shrug of the shoulders.

The question of abortion is “heavens” not new!  And we see that Catholic Pelosi and Biden were elected in spite of a departure with the Church on the issue.  Iisn’t that more interesting?  It reflects the will of the people not the entrenched clergy nor submissive church members.

Also reported is the fascistic (that buzz word these days which the Religious Right attempts to foister what is frequently described of their own modus operandi onto the Left, which is the typical strategy of the Republican delegation.)  Then the Bishop fires a woman supporting more female education and representation in the Church (a continuous edict from Rome!)  Yes by all means keep women on their knees, the favored position by men.  Disregard their enormous potential to challenge the male mentality and brutality.  For it is brutal to keep women in the submissive posture.  This is not simply a criticism of Catholics, but all religions especially visible in Islam as well.  The Republican Right Wing faction plays up to that notion with their opposition of the right to choose, anti-homosexuality, etc.

While the idea of torture could be linked to a character called the Grand Inquisitor since the Spanish Inquisition nortoriously engaged in such actions, that is not the personality found in The Brothers K.  To be aghast at that portrayal smacks of duplicity. Feigning outrage.  Neat strategy.  But it shows preconditioning and predictability of a hunter for minutia against the Left.  Not that the Left is without stain.  Oh, indeed they are.  This article is going as much nowhere as the Bishop is.  The walking out of church members shows that.

Report this

By Trithoverlies, April 12, 2009 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

Unfortunately Plato was Mistaken All men do not seek the truth if they did we would not have Wars, Genocide, Thefts, Lies, Covetness, Spousel Abuse, Child Abuse, Sex Abuse, Poverty, or the need for any Law Enforcement. Terrorism, Hatred, Ignorance, or Discrimination would not exist, it is because man’s Idea of the truth, and Lie is badly eschewed that all of the above misfortunes exist. Man has intrensic value yes, but every abortion, every child slain, every adult murdered subtracts from that intrensic value we have become a culture of death. We live in an imperfect world made so by Man, and we will not see any change for the good until after Christ return. That won’t happen until after the Great Tribulation has finished and that is going to be a terrible ride for all who take it whether you come to believe in Christ or take the mark. We are just in the first pains of brith at the present so things are going to get much worse before they get better. Christ says he who holds on to his faith will endure to the end, he also says there will be an end, and that the good news of the gospel will be preached to the whole world before that end comes. there are still people groups in this world that have not heard the Good News of the Gospel but that number is shrinking, and according to many bible translators all will have a bible in their own language sometime within the next twenty years. But please do not think I am setting a date for Christ return because only God Himself knows the date and the hour not even the Son of Man, or the Angels know the date. Yes the rapture could happen before I have finished this message but it could still be years away. It isn’t the rapture, or the Second Coming that should be the focus it’s the lost People of the world that should be our concern. If you are a Christian we are to go to all the world with the Gospel of the Good News, but it is and has always been up to the individual to accept it or reject it. Jesus stands at the door to your heart and knocks but it is you who chooses to open that door and invite Him in or leave the door closed and locked in Rejection. Hell is real but it was not built for man, man can choose it over God so every person who goes to hell chooses it over the sacrifice of God Himself on the Cross and His victory over Death the third day. I know Heaven is real as well and all who call on the name of Jesus Christ in true belief and real Faith will go there. Bottom line God sends no one to heaven, or hell we as individuals choose our final destination. Evolution and man made religion will send you to the place you have personally chosen since in Evolution no god is thought to exist than no god is worship and no life is thought to exist beyond the grave, the only god is self, and in man made religion it’s all about how you gain salvation whether its works, suffering, or following all the rules you leave God out of the equation it’s all about what you do. Only in true Christianity is it about what God did, He loves all men but will allow them to choose to reject Him or accept Him. What will you choose it’s in your ball park now?
            Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
              John R. Bloxson Jr.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 12, 2009 at 9:50 am Link to this comment

`Tea Parties’ or McCain-Palin/militia movement reunions?

By Bill Berkowitz Sat Apr 11, 2009 at 05:27:55 PM EST

Yes I read it and I was surprised that there was no mention of how so many of the ‘tea baggers’ are fearful that pres. Obama “will take their guns away” and are buying them up as fast as they can to battle the coming socialist, or is it fascist One World Gov’t? They weren’t too worried when fascist Cheney/Bush were in power were they?
True, no militias or proto-militias were identified as such but maybe it is too early, hence the use of the ‘?’ is appropriate. But then when some of the people at one of their rallies were interviewed they all, were shown, to believe all of the propaganda about Obama. Such as he is a secret Muslim, not an American citizen etc…get the picture OzarkMichael? Promotion of violence against the gov’t is done such as on Glenn Beck’s web site.

Limbaugh, Savage and the others call ‘socialists, liberals, communists’ as ‘sick and crazy’ that ‘need to be put down’ before ‘they’ can do anything to damage the USA as it is. Quite dangerous to Obama and anyone else they deem ‘a danger’ to what they perceive as their ‘Christian Nation.’ That is what you cannot see OzarkMichael.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 12, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

Night Gaunt:  As an answer to Leefeller’s rhetorical question, you said, “People have worth but not intrinsic worth.”  That strikes me as oddly opposite to the attitudinal beliefs people have about human worth.  Seems like if there is a morality, and whether or not there is a universal morality is a question to stew over, but if there is it seems intrinsic worth is prior and ‘apparent’ worth applied to that intrinsically worthy individual gleaned from moral or immoral acts (meaning one’s worth to the community in which one exists).  The question remains whether there is such a thing as universal morality.  Things considered moral/immoral on the ideal level (universal). 

I still see in your philosophy that war is never justified from your statements about humankind (we) being forever at war due to a self-perception of dominance.  Do I have that succinctly put, or do I have it wrong?  Animals naturally have territorial interests all the time.  Mankind being part of the animal world, it doesn’t seem surprising that a farmer would be pissed off at a sheepherders infringement on his property and a minor kind of war could ensue.  The motivations are a matter of who is more important in the minds of the parties.  Would that war be a natural thing even if it could be shown not to be justified?  What does it take to override nature?

Leefeller’s Never-Ending Poker Game might be a cousin to Pascal’s Wager, where, in Pascal, the believers go to heaven, the non-believers go to hell, and so it is of more self-interest to believe.  Of course it is dependent on whether there is or is not Heaven and Hell.  And where, we wonder how a winner in Leefeller’s NEP Game ever emerges. Is betting the whole boatload or withdrawing the better move?

Trithoverlies your delta results between minor genocides and major ones is fascinating since most things are quantified for a certain kind of justified belief, which is trooth, but in truth it is the case that no matter what the scale, genocide is never justified.  It does seem, however, you are right that the Israelis are doing a very crummy job of committing genocide.  And here I thought the Jews were the smartest people in the world?  Another trooth goes into the toilet.  I’m all for that!

Words cannot be deconstructed into Post Modernal definitions because the Post Modernity is a blatant lie against humanity and has no truth to it. According to Post Modernity, there is no such thing as truth or lie. By post modernity I can point a gun at someone pull the trigger and kill them since according to my truth I had the right to do so just because they looked at me wrong. What Hog wash, there is a truth and Lie there is a right and a wrong and in war… In this your diatribe against Post Modernity, you do bring to the table of this forum a very interesting concept not actually so verbalized before and that is the notion of The Universal Lie.  Of course, if there is The Universal Truth, there must also be its opposite.  Although Plato would call it The Universal Ignorance as he says all men seek the Good (Truth) even the ones who appear to others to commit the worst of evils.  No one ever considers himself or herself as pursuing evil, for that would be the worst of miserable creatures.  Again, I point out that Truth and Lie are both paradigms and do not exist in the way generally, and wrongly in my view, thought.  They are the measure by which all “relative” truths and lies are evaluated.  Relative meaning your view of truth, as it is without a doubt different from others.  We have evidence of that right here on this forum.  To wit the arguments being waged by commenters.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 12, 2009 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

cyrena asks: This is your rhetoric OM, (“added value person”?) What the hell is that?

The term is “value added” and it came from a post by Night-Gaunt, who said that the pretense of “value added” is the source of many problems in the world. We should understand that a human being’s intrinsic value is all that is important.

The puffed up importance of the ‘value added’, where one person is assumed to be better because of their education or vocation, often does not bear up under inspection anyway… a lesson which you seem to have learned in your last post.

So I am willing to let it go. All I ask is that we argue as equals. We let knowledge and understanding decide the issue. That is my rhetoric, cyrena.

Report this

By cyrena, April 11, 2009 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2

Ozark Michael writes:

•  “Ok, after all these months of dwelling in abject darkness I finally ask, “cyrena, please enlighten me! Explain your value-added resume to me. What sort of high-degree something-or-other are you? What sort of work do you do?”

~~~~

This is your rhetoric OM, (“added value person”?) What the hell is that?

So, it appears to be YOU who have ‘perceived’ me as whatever it is that you perceive me as, but I can only tell you the same thing that Colin Powell once responded in terms of him being an African-American, (the first one to be Secretary of State) and said (I’ll paraphrase here) “My race is other folks’ problem, I don’t have a problem with it at all.”

So, same thing here. I had an interesting enough ‘career’ (though there is a huge difference between a ‘job’ and a ‘career’) for the 27 years that I was employed as a multi-tasker in the commercial aviation/transportation industry, so I learned a lot about ‘things’ just in that. But that’s the same ‘experience’ that all or most of us have, dependent on what/where our individual paths/life experiences may lead us. Mine eventually led me back to academia after the world changed. (Never forget, 9/11/2001 CHANGED EVERYTHING in ways that most of us will still be pondering for many –hopefully- centuries to come.) Fortunately for me, it was one of those ‘silver lining’ type experiences, because I love it, and it’s not something I would have otherwise considered had I not suffered a injury that resulted in my not being able to perform my former duties at the same time that my former employer was looking for ways to fire employees en masse. Which they did anyway,  but they called it ‘downsizing’ with your bail-out money – (remember the airline industry ‘bail out’  2 of them) immediately after 9/11. So rest assured that your bail-out money wasn’t used in a way that would allow the industry to remain solvent for employees or consumers, but rather just the opposite. Hundreds and thousands of people were fired, leaving those remaining to do more work, at less pay, and so of course all but the top corp cats LOSE! (But that’s been the Biggest Oligarchy Game in Town for decades now). The consumer loses and of course so does everyone else.

Report this

By cyrena, April 11, 2009 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

But I was fortunate in having the option to return to academia, and for me at least, it was one of those ‘blessings in disguise’ type experiences. Because, as I said…I love it!

That’s why I post OM, to provide information that many people (like me for the previous 25 or so years) don’t necessarily know, and some of it is stuff that people might be interested in, and wouldn’t necessarily have reason to come across the information otherwise. (especially in an Oligarchy controlled media, not to even mention the Ministry of Propaganda that the former regime of thugs set up.)

That’s it OM. It’s NOT a ‘competition’ to see who knows the most (seeing as how relevant that is to the infinity of knowledge) and it’s damn sure not a JOB. (nobody’s paying me for this). So at the end of the day, (and seriously, I mean no offense) I wouldn’t even give a rat’s ass for what you perceive or misconceive about me or my intentions in posting what I do. It’s not about ME, and YOU are the only one who has ‘made’ it about me, because what you really do, is make everything about yourself and your personal OPINIONS regardless of facts and the context and sub context of those facts. Needless to say, you’re never gonna like anything I post because you’re a radical extremist, and I’m about balance, preferring the reality that is reflected in that balance. I’d also be lying (if only by omission) if I didn’t admit that after the past 8 years of the most radical political environment I’ve ever experienced as a member of the US society, I’m totally burned out on the chaos and socio-political destabilization that ALWAYS occurs under these circumstances! So my hopes and efforts are focused on recovery and stabilization for ALL of us.

So whatever I post should be accepted or rejected with that in mind. You all keep claiming that you don’t really have any freedom of ‘whatever’ but you most certainly DO have the right to ignore or disregard anything I post on this or any forum. And if you’ve already determined that nothing I post is of any personal value to YOU, (and you have) that just seems like the most common sense and practical thing to do.

So, why don’t you? Or, at least find another person to ‘obsess’ over. I’m not kidding you when I tell you that my dance card is pretty well filled, and NOT because I personally arranged it, but because life is what it is, and stuff happens. Some of it we can control, and others we can’t. So, we do the best we can with what we’ve got, and some of us at least, try to share some of the responsibilities involved.
So, I have aging parents (one with Alzheimer’s’) to look after and students and other scholars/colleagues that I have ethical obligations to as well, and I like keeping my own mind active and useful. As it has happened over the past few years, I’ve heard from many others in and around cyberspace who have appreciated some of my postings, and of course, there are others that I somehow manage to thoroughly piss off. Like I said, different perspectives.

So, it is what it is OM, and nothing you or your cabal post here is going to change that. I’ve been posting on this site for over 2 years, so if you’ve not become ‘enlightened’ by now, (particularly since there are several other posters who know a whole lot more than I do) than I’d say there’s no hope for any ‘enlightenment’ on your part. It happens.

Maybe it’s your Karma or something…

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 11, 2009 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

The latest at talk2action.org:


`Tea Parties’ or McCain-Palin/militia movement reunions?

By Bill Berkowitz Sat Apr 11, 2009 at 05:27:55 PM EST

I put the link below. As in my last article review, I decided to read this because the title caught my eye. It has the phrase ‘militia movement’ in it as if there might be an insurrection. You know, the sort of thing which everyone fears the fundamentalist Christians might do any minute now. Since Palen’s name was in the title and since everyone at talk2action is terrified of Palin that got me wondering too.

Mr Berkowitz wrote a long article. I read the whole thing. There is no militia movement. No guns, no hint of insurrection. No Palin-istas about to take over.

Just like last time, its only hype. Its meant to get Leftists stirred up. This sort of fearmongering seems to be a habit for talk2action authors.

The main point of the article is that Gingrich might be trying to form a coalition between people who are mad about bailouts(?)/taxes and the Christian Right. Such coalition building is a normal part of American politics. Obama did very well at building his coalitions. Thats how you win. I just dont see anything here to get excited about.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/4/11/172755/946
By the way, it is a little odd the way the Tea party started, getting so upset about millions going to homeowners about to be foreclosed. Its the billions that went to Democrat cash cow Fannie Mae and to the big Banks that got me upset. After reading about it for awhile I still only have the vaguest notion as to whether it was necessary or not. 

Why couldnt they have started the Tea Party back in October when the bailout was being debated? That would have been bold. So for me the Tea Party is a little late and it sounds more like an Organizing Party

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 11, 2009 at 7:55 pm Link to this comment

Yes, Night-Gaunt I do have a response.

True, every person has enormous intrinsic value.

However, cyrena claims in post after post to be what you would call the “value added” person. She uses her education and work like a credit card.

Instead of extending credit to her indefinitely, I have finally asked her if she can cover the charges.

cyrena claims to be ‘on top of the game’ of international law, claims to do important work, claims to be educated and specialized in International Law, and uses all that as a platform to stand above us and lecture us about things. She claims credentials that make her posts more authoritative. This is her advantage. I cheerfully admit I have no credentials in these matters. She reminds me of it often.

It is cyrena and not I who brought up her work and her expertise to strengthen her arguments. She does it alot. For many months.

In her last post she castigates me for not knowing her value-addedness. She said, You don’t know a damn thing about me OM, on account of how you’re not the brightest bulb on the tree

Ok, after all these months of dwelling in abject darkness I finally ask, “cyrena, please enlighten me! Explain your value-added resume to me. What sort of high-degree something-or-other are you? What sort of work do you do?”

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 11, 2009 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

You seemed to have altered the trajectory of the question from people who are judged for their worth on what they do from my point of we having worth because we are in existance. Any response, OzarkMichael?

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2009 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

ooops, sorry Night-Gaunt.

It was shenonymous and yourself who jumped into the end of the ‘war on terror’ while cyrena just posted a smiley face and some textbooks.

Report this
OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

cyrena says: I came across several books that I have managed to save from the typical outcomes of these sorts of experiences, if only because these are all crucial to my on-going work.

What job is that exactly? besides the work of writing posts which proclaim that the work is important, proclaim that the work is on-going, and proclaim that only the best people can understand it?

Because even a moron like me can understand what it means to work at a job, since I have to do so every day.

You are right, i dont know anything about you. Now you have an open invitation from me to explain what your job is. If you arent going to use your ‘expertise’ to discuss issues on the forum(I noticed you dodged the last question i asked, while shenonymous and cyrena both jumped in) and instead you post the on-going-ness and specialness of books you own, I figure you could at least explain your job. It would create common ground between us, cyrena.

“Let the workers unite!” And all that.

Report this
Night-Gaunt's avatar

By Night-Gaunt, April 10, 2009 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

People have worth but not intrinsic worth. Like the unfortunate “Straight A student” it shows that value is added by what you do or who you are not because you are. Until we reach that point we will forever be at war with each other in large battles or small always for ill for someone on the receiving end of that violence by that person who thought less of you. Or to put it another way they thought their motivations or orders or outcome had more importance than your life.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 10, 2009 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

In the paper the other day I saw this headline; “Straight A student killed”, the caption was over a photo showed a young women.  Asking my daughter why the grade average in the head line, like it was important in her death to let everyone know she was not a C average person.  Maybe C average people are covered on the back pages? 

What I do not understand is why in the killing they subject the title of killed peoples as if they are only significant by what kind of people they they were before they died? 

Like a never ending poker game, I will see your straight A student and raise your Palestinians with a whole pot load of Christians and I call with a Jew! 

In the end the dead are dead, and what they were does not really matter does it, except in the minds and madness of the demented.

Report this

Page 3 of 16 pages  <  1 2 3 4 5 >  Last »

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


 
 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.

Like Truthdig on Facebook