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Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People

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Posted on Feb 14, 2009
Sachsenhausen
AP photo / Sven Kaestner

Visitors to Oranienburg, Germany, pass the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp last month. The words on the gate translate loosely as “Labor liberates.” 

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally published in The Independent.

The third and very final part of the “normality” of war. I have just finished reading Lyn Smith’s Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. I admit to a personal interest. Lyn is a friend of mine for whom I have been recording my memories of Middle East wars for the Imperial War Museum. Nothing I have ever seen can equal this, however, and I can give only one example from the terrifying, outrageously brave and moving book this is.

It is the testimony of Leon Greenman, a British Jewish inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau who arrived at the extermination camp with his wife and child. It speaks for itself. All other passages pale beside it:

“We were bullied out of the train and stood about waiting. It must have been about half past two in the morning. It was dark, a blue light was shining on the platform. We saw a few SS men walking up and down. They separated the men from the women. So I stood right in front of the men and I could see my wife there with the child in her arms. She threw me a kiss and she showed the baby ... Then one of the prisoners in a striped uniform commanded us to follow him. Well, we turned to the left and walked a little way for two or three minutes. A truck arrived, stopped near us and on the truck were all the women, children, babies and in the centre my wife and child standing up. They stood up to the light as if it was meant to be like that – so that I could recognise them. A picture I’ll never forget. All these were supposed to have gone to the bathroom to have a bath, to eat and to live. Instead they had to undress and go into the gas chambers, and two hours later those people were ashes, including my wife and child.”

I recalled this searing passage this week when I received a letter from a reader, taking me to task for my “constant downplaying of the suffering of the Palestinians on the grounds that their deaths and suffering are minimal when compared with that of the Second World War”. Now, I should say at once that this is a bit unfair. I was especially taking exception to a Palestinian blog now going the rounds which shows a queue of Palestinian women at one of Israel’s outrageous roadblocks and a (slightly) cropped picture of the Auschwitz selection ramp, the same platform upon which Leon Greenman was separated from his young wife and child more than 60 years ago. The picture of the Palestinian women is based on a lie; they are not queuing to be exterminated. Racist, inhumane and sometimes deadly – Palestinian women have died at these infernal checkpoints – but they are not queuing to be murdered.

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Yet our reader does have a point. The Second World War, she says, “does put it in a category apart ... but surely if one is caught up in any war and sees one’s loved ones killed or maimed, one’s home destroyed ... then that must be the greatest cataclysm in one’s life. The fact that a hundred others, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million are suffering likewise is immaterial to the individual’s suffering. The Second World War lasted six years. The Palestinian suffering has lasted over sixty…”

And yes, I’ll go along with this. If it’s an individual being deliberately killed, then this is no less terrible than any other individual, albeit that this second person may be one of six million others. The point, of course, is the centrality of the Holocaust and – Israel’s constant refrain – its exclusivity. Actually, the Armenian Holocaust – as I’ve said on umpteen occasions – is also central to all genocide studies. The same system of death marches, of camps, of primitive asphyxiation, even a few young German officers in Turkey watching the genocide in 1915 and then using the same methods on Jews in the occupied Soviet Union. Numbers matter.

But our reader has another point. “After all,” she says, “in the Second World War, after the entry of the US and USSR on our side, people could feel pretty positive about the outcome. But where is such hope for the Palestinians? And now to cap the horror the BBC is refusing to even show an appeal to help Gaza…” I’m not at all sure that W Churchill Esq would have entirely placed such confidence in the outcome of the Second World War – he was initially worried that the Americans would use up their firepower on the Japanese rather than against Hitler’s Germany.

I think, however, there is yet one more point. The rules of war – the Geneva Conventions and all the other post-Second World War laws – were meant to prevent another Holocaust. They were specifically designed to ensure that no one should ever again face the destruction of Mrs Greenman and her child. They were surely not made only for one race of people. And it is these rules which Israel so disgracefully flouted in Gaza. It’s a bit like the refrain from Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara and a whole host of other apparatchiks when the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Well, yes, they told us, it was bad – but not as bad as Saddam Hussein’s regime.

And of course, this argument leads to perdition. True, we were bad – but not as bad as the Baath party. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or Hitler’s Germany and the SS. Or the Ottoman Turks – though I noticed movingly that one of Lyn’s Jewish Holocaust survivors mentions the Armenians. No, the numbers game works both ways. A thousand Palestinians die in Gaza. But what if the figure were 10,000? Or 100,000? No, no, of course that wouldn’t happen. But the rules of war are made for all to obey. Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths. But a Palestinian woman and her child are as worthy of life as a Jewish woman and her child on the back of a lorry in Auschwitz.


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By cyrena, February 17, 2009 at 12:08 am Link to this comment

By Shingo, February 16 at 8:58 pm

•  “BTW.  Israel also said that the blockade by Egypt was an act of war, even though it only affected 5% of trade for Israel.  I suppose that justifies the rocket attacks on Israel by Gaza, seeing as Israel is blockading Gaza?

Yep, I would agree that the precedent has already been set by Israel on this. If blocking 5% of Israel’s trade was an ‘act of war’ on the part of Egypt in 1967, then blocking 100% of Gaza’s trade, not to mention basic survival resources like food and water, is most surely an ‘act of war’ by Israel, and would justify (at least under International Law) the rocket attacks along with any other weapons that Gazans might have at their disposal.

(Problem of course is that they don’t.)

•  “And BTW ITW.  Please provide the link of which article of international law states that lining up troops along ones own border LEGALLY CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF WAR.”

Of course this doesn’t exist, (which is why I’m sure Shingo asked this rather rhetorically.”)

And of course the lining up of any countries’ troops on its own borders doesn’t constitute an act of war in ANY legal context.

The attacks by Israel that initiated the 1967 War were a same year version of what would later become The Bush Doctrine of using pre-emptive military force against anybody he had designated as an ‘enemy’ whether they actually were or not.

Israel had long before designated Egypt as a major enemy, just like every other Arab territory in the area. I mean, that was the deal going in, with Israel already 20 years into their plan to annihilate Arabs in the region.

So it was the Bush Doctrine of 1967, as practiced by the Terrorist Regime of Israel, as it would be practiced by the Terrorist Regime of Dick W. Bush just over 30 years later, and directed at the same target..

The Greater Middle East.  The heart of it.

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By Shenonymous, February 17, 2009 at 12:02 am Link to this comment

Actually Shingo, I thought trithoverlies and I resided in the same universe.

Further comments will have to wait until later, it is beddy bye, so to be continued.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You and Trithoverlies really do reside in a parallel universe don’t you?

One of the things I love most about debating your Zionist wingnuts, is the ease with which quotes of former Israeli leaders can so easily be plucked from the archives to humiliate you.

Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, said to a colleague shortly after Israel’s expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians, “They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

Evidently, Ben-Gurion also believed Palestine belonged to someone else.  He didn’t seem think that anything was settled for the Muslims and the Israelis.

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By Shenonymous, February 16, 2009 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment

The screeching is rising to fanatical decibels as was expected.  Underprivileged is your word extracted from an allegedly comparative story, cyrena, not mine.  You erroneously attribute it to me because it sort of makes it looks like you have a case, then you can criticize me up and down the wazoo.  Wow, interesting form of fallacy logic.  You created an argument comparison, what is called the fallacy of questionable analogy, between incommensurate perspectives which have no relationship to each other at all then attempt to incinerate one by incinerating the other.  Fascinating.  You continuously attack me, which is the basic ad hominem attack, and has the implication that these attacks undermines everything I’ve said. It doesn’t.  There is no real comparison between Barbara Bush’s comments and mine.  But it was in reality as flimsy as an argument can get.  The logic is a comical common smokescreen or clouding the issue, as if there really is one.  The misleading vividness of your lengthy Barbara Bush anecdote results in jumping to conclusions by placing special emphasis on a comparison the only relationship that exists is the one in your mind.  Your loaded language is emotive and belies your subjective, prejudicial and threatening views.  The language of the bully.

You also seem to think that by linking Sepharad and me that you have somehow impugned both of us when what either she or I have said has been the truth and nothing but the truth.  It is an attempt to slander both she and She.  Of course you will speak of me as you wish.  I have no intentions of replying further to any of your alkaline comments.  It is not my wish to be in fatal conflict with you or your views.  We have different views but our contention does not have to be reduced to vulgarity.  I have implored over and over that ‘educated’ dispute be the format, not scrappy jabs.  As is just witnessed with Shingos adolescent comment about Trithoverlies as a drunk.  Stupidity at its highest.  Any further comments from you will be falling on deaf ears here.

For the benefit of other readers:  The land mentioned in the Qu’ran as the holy land is mentioned at least seven times, once when it is remembered that Moses proclaims to the Children of Israel: “O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.” (Surah 5:21).  But I recommend you read from Surah 5:19 to 5:32 to see what Allah says.  For your convenience, see: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Holy_Qur’an/Al-Meada

It would seem a simple matter that if Allah instructed the Children of Israel to enter the land that was to become Palestine, that settles it at least for the Muslims, and the Israelis.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 11:27 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies, February 16 at 10:12 pm #

If the West Bank was under the control of the Palestinian Athority, Israeli settlements would not be expanding.  It’s illegal, but it continues, even in defiance of international law.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel also controls all land, sea and air access to Gaza.

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment

By Robert, February 16 at 9:24 pm #
So Why Hasn’t Iran Started by Wiping Its Own Jews Off the Map?

Israel’s Jewish Problem in Tehran
By JONATHAN COOK
~*~
Thanks for this piece Robert. My instant reaction to the title
“So Why Hasn’t Iran Started by Wiping It’s OWN Jews Off the Map”
would be because Iran has never been inclined to wipe it’s Jewish population off of the map. They’ve existed there (synagogues and all) for hundreds or years. Those currently there are there because they WANNA BE!! The Iranians don’t bother them, but then…the Iranians haven’t been in the habit of INITIATING any attacks on ANYBODY in the neighborhood, or any other attempts to wipe anybody off of the map.
That’s probably the reason.

BUT, this news is horrifically ominous, because it COULD very well be true.

srael ready to launch a military offensive against Iran
In the wake of Gaza, can the world afford to live with a nuclear Israel?

By Lech Biegalski

URL of this article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12307

Global Research, February 14, 2009

On February 14, Australian News Agency “The Age” reported:

A SENIOR Israeli diplomat has warned that Israel is ready to launch a military offensive against Iran to prevent it from developing nuclear weapons.

In an interview with The Age, Dan Gillerman, who was Israel’s permanent representative at the United Nations from 2003 until last September, said time for diplomatic efforts to stop Iran acquiring a nuclear capability might have already expired.
“The world cannot afford to live with a nuclear Iran,” Mr Gillerman said.

The truth is that, after witnessing Israeli war crimes in Lebanon and in the illegally occupied Palestinian territories, the world cannot afford to live with nuclear Israel. As opposed to Iran, Israel has secretly developed hundreds of nuclear warheads and delivery weapons outside of any supervision by international community. Iran continues to run its nuclear program in cooperation with the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). 

According to the Press TV report of February 13,
The new chief of US intelligence has confirmed the findings of a 2007 intelligence report that Iran has no nuclear weapons program.

Dennis Blair told the Senate Intelligence Committee that his organization has assessed that Tehran does not have nuclear weapons design and weaponization work.

A National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), issued in November 2007 by the sixteen US intelligence agencies, clarified that Iran was not pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

The 2007 intelligence report was widely seen as a setback for Bush administration efforts to pressure Iran and halt its nuclear program.

The UN nuclear watchdog, which has carried out the highest number of inspections in its history on Iranian nuclear sites, has also found nothing to indicate that the program has diverted toward weaponization.

In the meantime, both US and Israeli governments continue to press the issue of suspected development of military nuclear technology in Iran, slapping three rounds of sanctions against Tehran. Israel openly threatens to attack Iran in order to destroy its nuclear and scientific facilities.

The rest is at the link:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12307

So, if anybody is threatening to do any attacking and/or wiping off maps, it’s the same old culprit - ISRAEL! Other than Saddam Hussein of Iraq, Israel is the only country that’s ever attacked ANYBODY in the Middle East, at least since Israel’s existence there.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

When do you suspect the time will be right for Iran to commence it’s local extermination program?

Yes, Iran had ma much larger Jewish population prior to the 1979 Revolution, but that was due to them fleeing out of fear, that was clearly unfounded.  In any case, the population dwindled to ten thousand and has more than doubled since then.

Those that live in Iran have knocked back the cash incentives to leave.  Evidently they are not as paranoid or delusional as you.

A Druze Muslim is still a 4th class citizen in Israel.  They still don’t enjoy the rights of Jews in Israel.

The West Bank is controlled by Israel, not the Palestinian Authority or Hamas.  Israel still destroy Arab homes there on a regular basis, using the justification that the homes were illegally built.
No Jews are being killed in the West Bank and the only Jews in Gaza are killing Palestinians.  In fact, 400 Palestinians were killed by Israel in the west Bank last year, and no rockets were even fired from there.

Jews are safe in all Western countries, including Europe, which is why most of them live there as opposed to Israel.

if Jews were really unsafe, they would all be moving to Israel.  In fact, the trend id the opposite.

There is no tide turning in Canada of the United States.  Jews are among the most highly regarded member of society in both countries. Name one case of a Jews being harmed or persecuted in the US or Canada in the last 12 months.

Stop drinking Trithoverlies.  People with your mental illness should not touch drugs or alcohol.

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By Trithoverlies, February 16, 2009 at 11:12 pm Link to this comment

Sir any Palestinian living in Israel Is a citizen of Israel with all the rights that gives them the vote the right to be called up as part of the ready reserve, and the right to be educated including College while on the West Bank which is under the control of the Palestinian Athority, and the Gaza Strip under Hamas that is not true why not?  Because of the criminal dealings of the Palestinian Athority and the Terrorist activities of Hamas neither of these entities is controled By Israel so don’t state a hafe truth or an outright lie as facts
          Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Trithoverlies, February 16, 2009 at 10:58 pm Link to this comment

Iran will destroy the small number of Jewish people in Iran when the time is right as for those in Iraq they are dying out right now the last 32 in Bagdad are all old and they will dia soon enough.  You who try to point to the Jewish population in Iran do not know the history from a few hundred thousand there are now only about 20,000 so what is your point that the Iranians have not seen fit yet to kill them as soon as Amahenijad can get the go ahead they will be dead that is the simple truth you glose over so stop trying to make a point that does not exist to be made.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Trithoverlies, February 16, 2009 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

The truth where else in the world is a Jew a Muslim, and a Christian safer than Jerusalem now. This line is part of the ignorance that has swirled around the middle east for the last 60 years.  A Druze Muslim is a citizen in good standing in Israel he or she does their military service goes to college and votes in every election, the same is true for the Messianic Jews in most parts of the Nation of Israel.  But tell me where in the West Bank a Jew or Christian is safe these areas are controled by the Palestinian Athority or Hamas. The answer is NO WHERE Palestian Arab Christians are being pushed out by the Athorities and Jews are killed if caught on the West Bank or in Gaza. They are not safe in other countries either a rising tide of Hatred in Russia is threatening to destroy the last remnants of Jews there, in Europe the Rasing tide of Antisemitism is threatening to expell the last vestiges of European Jews, even in Canada and here in the United State the tide is turnning and the Antisemitism is threatening so where are Jews safe today No where and if the Arabs have their way and the Europeans have their way nowhere will be a safe spot for the Jews and if Amihenajad succeeds in aquiring nuclear weapons not even Israel will be safe so to answer the question the Bible clearly says they will be persecuted along with anyone that chooses Jesus during the Tribulation and Great Tribulation read Daniel 7:23-27, 8:23-26, 9:26-27, 12:1-4. Zechariah 12:2-10, 13:7-9, 14:1-21, Matthew 24:1-28, Mark 13:1-23, Luke 21:5-24, 1st. Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2nd. Thessalonians 2:1-12, 2nd. Timothy 3:1-5, Revelation 6:9-11 the Fith seal, Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 12:13-17,Revelation 13:11-18, Revelation 15:1-8, and Revelation 20:4 The slaughter of these saints will be unlike any time in History before this time the worst of the worst of times no best of times for any follower of God be they Jewish or Gentile if they are caught they will be beheaded that simple. So where is a Jew safe NO WHERE and this will be true until the battle of Armageddon which will actually be fought from Armageddon, to Jerusalem, and Bosrah.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies,
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By wildflower, February 16, 2009 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment

Re Robert’s Post: “Over 1,000 New York Jews demonstrated . . . against Israel’s policies in Gaza.”

Yes, every Jewish friend I have opposes Israel’s policies. Clearly, there are many others who feel the same way - from American Jews Oppose Israeli Policy in Gaza:

“We Shall Not Be a Party to Their Counsel!”

“As human beings, we are shocked and appalled at the mass destruction unleashed by the State of Israel against the people of Gaza in its military operation, following years of Israeli occupation, siege, and deprivation.

As Americans, we protest the carte blanche given Israel by the US government to pursue a war of “national honor,” “restoring deterrence,” “destroying Hamas,” and “searing Israel’s military might into the consciousness of the Gazans.”  . . .

. . . as Jews of different religious persuasions, from Orthodox to secular atheist, we are especially horrified that a state that purports to speak in our name wages a military campaign that has killed over 1,400 people, a large percentage of them civilians, children, and non-combatants, with little or no consideration for human rights or the laws of war. . .

. . . As Jews, we stand united with another Israel, the patriarch Jacob, who cursed his sons Simeon and Levi for massacring the people of Shechem in revenge for the rape of their sister Dinah. Like Jacob, “we shall not be a party to the counsel of zealots. We shall not be counted in their assembly. (See Genesis 34. 49: 5-7). . . “

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/22/american-jews-oppose-israeli-policy-in-gaza/

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By Robert, February 16, 2009 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

So Why Hasn’t Iran Started by Wiping Its Own Jews Off the Map?

Israel’s Jewish Problem in Tehran

By JONATHAN COOK


“In the meantime, the 25,000-strong Iranian Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel and traces its roots back 3,000 years. As one of several non-Muslim minorities in Iran, Jews there suffer discrimination, but they are certainly no worse off than the one million Palestinian citizens of Israel—and far better off than Palestinians under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

Iranian Jews have little influence on decision-making and are not allowed to hold senior posts in the army or bureaucracy. But they enjoy many freedoms. They have an elected representative in parliament, they practice their religion openly in synagogues, their charities are funded by the Jewish diaspora, and they can travel freely, including to Israel. In Tehran there are six kosher butchers and about 30 synagogues. Ahmadinejad’s office recently made a donation to a Jewish hospital in Tehran.

As Ciamak Moresadegh, an Iranian Jewish leader, observed: “If you think Judaism and Zionism are one, it is like thinking Islam and the Taliban are the same, and they are not.” Iran’s leaders denounce Zionism, which they blame for fueling discrimination against the Palestinians, but they have also repeatedly avowed that they have no problem with Jews, Judaism or even the state of Israel. Ahmadinejad, caricatured as a merchant of genocide, has in fact called for ‘regime change’—and then only in the sense that he believes a referendum should be held of all inhabitants of Israel and the occupied territories, including refugees from war, on the nature of the government.

Despite the absence of any threat to Iran’s Jews, the Israeli media recently reported that the Israeli government has been trying to find new ways to entice Iranian Jews to Israel. The Ma’ariv newspaper pointed out that previous schemes had found few takers. There was, noted the report, “a lack of desire on the part of thousands of Iranian Jews to leave”. According to the New York-based Forward newspaper, a campaign to convince Iranian Jews to emigrate to Israel caused only 152 out of these 25,000 Jews to leave Iran between October 2005 and September 2006, and most of them were said to have emigrated for economic reasons, not political ones.

To step up these efforts—and presumably to avoid the embarrassing incongruence of claiming an imminent second Holocaust while thousands of Jews live happily in Tehran—Israel is now backing a move by Jewish donors to guarantee every Iranian Jewish family $60,000 to settle in Israel, in addition to a host of existing financial incentives that are offered to Jewish immigrants, including loans and cheap mortgages.

The announcement was met with scorn by the Society of Iranian Jews, which issued a statement that their national identity was not for sale. “The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradeable for any amount of money. Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran’s Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews.””

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook08032007.html

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Hmmmm, let me see..

Menachin Begin was in a good position as any if anyone was threatening Israel in 1967. and he said that the army concentration did “not prove that Nasser was really about to attack” Israel. 

Do you think Begin doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

BTW.  Israel also said that the blockade by Egypt was an act of war, even though it only affected 5% of trade for Israel.  I suppose that justifies the rocket attacks on Israel by Gaza, seeing as Israel is blockading Gaza?

And BTW ITW.  Please provide the link of which article of international law states that lining up troops along ones own border LEGALLY CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF WAR. 

>> When Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Libya, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and all the other Arab Moslem states are safe havens for Jews, Muslims and Christians. 

You have yet to explain why there is such a need for a safe haven for Jews, when most of the Jewish population choose not to live in Israel

>> On NPR this past week they were interviewing Egyptians who had converted from Islam to Christianity and had been receiving death threats

So what?  All this proves is that there a bad Muslims out there.

You want me to provide a story of an Israeli journalist who has received death threats from Zionists?

Do you want me to provide an account of how Jews, like Richard Falk of the UN, have been treated when trying to enter Israel or how Jews who try to emigrate from Israel are treated?

>> Robert holds Israel to a standard he doesn’t hold Israel’s neighbors to.

You started out by claiming that the world holds Israel to standards that it does not other countries, yet you have failed to provide one example of how Israel has received any retribution for it’s transgressions.

You actually pointed to Iraq as an example of a bad Arab states, while seemingly overlooking the fact that Iraq has essentially been destroyed for it’s sins.

Then you point to Darfur, which is experiencing a civil war between rial factions, but has not invaded anyone.

All you did was scurry around and create enough smoke in the hope of diverting attention away from Israel.
It’s not working.

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By Robert, February 16, 2009 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

Uuuhh…ITW…there is a large Jewish population as well as a Christians in Iran. They are happy there. Israel has been trying to get the Jewish population to move to Israel. The Jews of Iran have no desire to move to there. There are many Jews, Christians and other religions in many of the Arab/Moslem countries and have lived their for centuries. Are you denying these facts?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2009 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

Hmmmm, let me see….

Shingo doesn’t know that mounting troops to attack on your side of the border and threatening to destroy the folks on the other side LEGALLY CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF WAR—under International Law. 

Cyrena concedes this point, understanding that International Law and the Laws of War are pretty damn clear, but says Israel was never attacked again—what do you think the 1973 War was? If you concede that the ‘67 was justifiable by Israel, then the Yom Kippur attack was just that—an attack on Israel by Arab states.

Robert claims that if Israel is a Safe Haven for Jews, it must be for Muslims and Christians…I say, fair enough: When Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Libya, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and all the other Arab Moslem states are safe havens for Jews, Muslims and Christians.  They aren’t. 

On NPR this past week they were interviewing Egyptians who had converted from Islam to Christianity and had been receiving death threats—even their daughters at school were told “Unless your father comes back to Islam, we are going to kill you.”

This wearing of blinders is about all I expect from Robert. 

Here was my first post in this thread.  Notice that exactly as I predicted, Robert holds Israel to a standard he doesn’t hold Israel’s neighbors to.


Inherit The Wind, February 15 at 6:22 am #

“Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People”

Yes they were.  Just ask any of the so-called “progressives” here at TruthDig and they’ll tell you that the most stringent interpretation of the Rules apply to Israel, and Israel only.

These “Rules” can, according to them, be bent, broken or out-right ignored as long as it’s by anyone opposing Israel’s existence.  It goes further: ANY horrific action by any Arab state against ANYONE is excusable, as long as that state isn’t being supported by the USA.  That’s why there’s no outrage about Darfur, nor about the continuous suppression of freedom in Arab states.

The so-called “progressives” argue like high-paid lawyers or Republicans: Situational Ethics are always appropriate to “win” your POV.  Put the same situation in another context and they squirm and try to argue the rules no longer apply.

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By Folktruther, February 16, 2009 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Moisha Dyan publically acknowledged that Eygpt was not in position to attack Israel and Israel attacked first.  The French, under De Gaulle also concluded that Israel attacked first.

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By Robert, February 16, 2009 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 16 at 5:01 am #

And please, do elaborate who on this forum is opposing Israel’s existence.
************************************************

“You, Robert, FolkTruther, Fadel, Tony Wicher, and that’s just for starters.  Every one of you has opposed the IDEA of Israel being a safe haven for Jews in the world—the only one.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ITW…Israel is supposed to be a democracy. A safe haven should exist for Jews, Moslem & its Christian citizens. It should NOT be for Jews only. Are you saying that Jews are not safe in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, Africa…etc…?

I have stated & posted on numerous times that Israel’s boundaries should the pre-1967 lines as per UN Resolution 242 & 338.

The Palestinians have lost 78% of their original land & the last remaining 22% are currently fading away on a daily basis and as of this moment.

Where do you think Israel’s recognized boundaries should be…be specific if its possible?

````````````
 
“In 1973, they attacked Israel on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar—Yom Kippur—and damn near won—so much that Moshe Dayan panicked and sought to release the nuclear weapons against Syria on the Golan.”

ITW…If Israel were attacked by Egypt & Syria in 1973…which Israeli cities/towns were hit?

The facts are that the Egyptians & the Syrians attacked Israel’s IDF on occupied Egyptian & Syrian land. Israel was NOT attacked at all!

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

From ITW to me:


Cyrena,

“To say that Israel was never attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria is simply fantasy.  You’re better and smarter than that. To mount tens of thousands of armed troops on Israel’s border and publicly state your intention is to wipe Israel off the map LEGALLY CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF WAR! (since you’re playing the “legal” card). That’s what started the 6-Day Way in 1967.  In 1973, they attacked Israel on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar—Yom Kippur—and damn near won—so much that Moshe Dayan panicked and sought to release the nuclear weapons against Syria on the Golan.”

~~~

Inherit, I have NEVER argued the FACTS of Israel’s pre-emptive strike on the Arab states, (including Egypt) at the time of the 1967 War. Indeed, they had troops troops in the area, and most likely were prepared to strike, had Israel not struck first.

THAT was then, and the Genocide has continued in the 42 years since, and NOBODY has ‘attacked’ Israel in that period of time. It’s that simple.

Shenonymous swears that the Palestinians WOULD attack Israel IF they had the weapons, but that’s about as lame as it gets. Maybe people incarcerated WOULD attack their captors if they had the weapons to do so. But she doesn’t know that, and the reality of course is that they DON’T.

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2
Shenonymous, here in what I certainly hope are the final stages of your descent into madness, you have finally shown your ‘true colors’ (or lack thereof) This is standard 20th Century racist doublespeak:

•  “..Unfortunately for the rest of the world, the Jews are the better warriors and have shown that for decades. They have had to be from the incessant attacks they received over half a century to be sure.  They own their land.  It is their country.  It is the Palestinian who has never had land of their own…”
~~~

SPECIFICALLY:
“They own their land. It is THEIR country, and the kicker that exposes you for the inherent racist that you are…IT IS THE ‘PALESTINIAN WHO HAS NEVER HAD LAND OF THEIR OWN..”

Yep Shenonymous, THAT’LL get cha pretty hated.
It’s kind of similar to what Barbara Bush said about the Americans who were drowned out of their homes in the disasters of hurricanes Katrina and Rita. When the government FINALLY got around to responding to the crises, they moved them in bus loads to nearby places, including various spots in Texas of course. For those who had been dumped in Houston or other already depressed areas of the State, (most of it) and for those who were ‘processed through’ other areas of the state, (like Dallas and then dumped in other areas…didn’t want them in Dallas – oh no) Barbara Bush had this to say:
(I’ve edited and included the link)

NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George
H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in
Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the
poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated, “This is working very well for them.”


She was part of a group in Houston today at the
Astrodome that included her husband and former
President Bill Clinton, who were chosen by her son,
the current president, to head fundraising efforts for
the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack
Obama were also present.

In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of
evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: “Almost
everyone I’ve talked to says we’re going to move to
Houston.”

Then she added: “What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

“And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this—this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them.”

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054719

~~
So, since they were ‘underprivileged’ ANYWAY, this is working out really well for them. The arrogance, hubris, and inherent RACISM (though you may prefer to call it ‘classism’ because that might be more comfortable to your denial) displayed here is breathtakingly revolting, and YOU Shenonymous, have displayed exactly the same, as has Sepharad, in nearly every single post.

You did it when you talked about having looked at a map of the Middle East, and decided that you thought Israel’s ‘offer’ was generous. My gawd! That was blood curdling enough to read from you.

But this really does cement your obvious distain, and yes BIGOTRY toward a population that as you state so clearly here, ‘never had any LAND OF THEIR OWN’, just as Barbara Bush so casually stated, “Well, they were UNDERPRIVILEGED anyway.”

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

Who SAYS they were ‘underprivileged’ Shenonymous, and based exactly one WHAT standards? Who says that the Palestinians never had any land of their own Shenonymous, when the evidence speaks the truth, which is that the Arabs of the Middle East, (Arabia) have occupied that land for centuries, and this FACT was acknowledged by the Zionist founders from the beginning:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
  David Ben-Gurion quotes (Polish born Israeli Statesman and Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63). Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation, 1886-1973)

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/we_must_use_terror-assassination-intimidation/346611.html


The arrogance that for some reason, you and the rest of the Zionists have lives that are somehow MORE VALUABLE and MORE DESERVING of others, hardly makes you a person of decency, but rather quite the opposite.

We see that now.

If the Jews were such better warriors, why did 5 million of them allegedly perish in the combined effects of WWII? And if the Jews ‘own their land’ in Israel, where’s the deed to prove it? Maybe we should do some deed searches, which would also tell us how they PURCHASED it, right? I mean since you say that they ‘own’ that land, and the Palestinians never did.

What constitutes “ownership” in your mind Shenonymous? Well, according to the red-neck ‘family from hell’ that I lived across the street from in TexASS, it was ANYTHING they ‘laid a claim’ to, or simply TOOK by force! That was their motto, “We don’t ASK for ANYTHING! We ‘TAKE ‘WHAT WE WANT!” They were dead serious.

You are obviously of the same mind, and I think it is despicably reprehensible.

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

Who SAYS they were ‘underprivileged’ Shenonymous, and based exactly one WHAT standards? Who says that the Palestinians never had any land of their own Shenonymous, when the evidence speaks the truth, which is that the Arabs of the Middle East, (Arabia) have occupied that land for centuries, and this FACT was acknowledged by the Zionist founders from the beginning:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

  David Ben-Gurion quotes (Polish born Israeli Statesman and Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63). Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation, 1886-1973)

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/we_must_use_terror-assassination-intimidation/346611.html


The arrogance that for some reason, you and the rest of the Zionists have lives that are somehow MORE VALUABLE and MORE DESERVING of others, hardly makes you a person of decency, but rather quite the opposite.

We see that now.

If the Jews were such better warriors, why did 5 million of them allegedly perish in the combined effects of WWII? And if the Jews ‘own their land’ in Israel, where’s the deed to prove it? Maybe we should do some deed searches, which would also tell us how they PURCHASED it, right? I mean since you say that they ‘own’ that land, and the Palestinians never did.

What constitutes “ownership” in your mind Shenonymous? Well, according to the red-neck ‘family from hell’ that I lived across the street from in TexASS, it was ANYTHING they ‘laid a claim’ to, or simply TOOK by force! That was their motto, “We don’t ASK for ANYTHING! We ‘TAKE ‘WHAT WE WANT!” They were dead serious.

You are obviously of the same mind, and I think it is despicably reprehensible.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 16, 2009 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

By mjt01, February 16 at 6:32 am #

<<<<< Part II >>>>>

“Israel had a chance to stop this. Indeed in the beginning of the Israeli State, it almost seemed as though it would. But the forces of hate triumphed in Israel. Instead of elevating its Arab population to the status of equals, it has turned them into third class citizens. It has done worse with the Arabs in conquered lands.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mjt01…I must confess that your posts/comments regarding Israel are so real & TRUE.

The Arab population (Christian & Moslem) who are Israeli citizens are third and fourth class citizens. They have NO equal rights when compared to Jewish citizens.

Israel does NOT have a constitution; it makes up laws to benefit its Jewish citizens at the expense of its Christian & Moslem Arab citizen population. One should see how they are treated at Tel Aviv airport. The Israelis make them stand for hours before processing their passports/exits. Jewish citizen are out within a few minutes.

Israel’s brutal IDF/police treats them like animals. Its much too worse for the ones in the occupied territories.

The daily IDF deliberate humiliations, harassment, beatings, kicking, slapping, clubbing, spitting & (urinating in some cases) against Palestinian mothers, grandmothers, women, children, youth, men of all ages is a very common routine for a lot Palestinians to endure from Israel’s IDF especially at checkpoints/crossings.

Imagine what these people have to go through each day. Imagine seeing your mother, grandmother, sister, aunt, father grandfather…etc… being pushed, shoved, kicked, clubbed, slapped, spat upon and cursed…with NO freedom of movement, no future and your land and its resources are being stolen/confiscated right from under their feet for the purpose of BUILDING & EXPANDING SETTLEMENTS THAT ARE “FOR JEWS ONLY”.

ITS APARTHEID & WORSE!

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By diamond, February 16, 2009 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

My extreme humility prevents me from agreeing with you Shingo!

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

Superb post diamond.

Nothing more need be said.

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By diamond, February 16, 2009 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

Mech’elsamberg after the zoo, the cell phones and the tv stations you get to the real point of your post: ‘their population is exploding’ (I would think that was an ironical remark in view of the shelling of civilian areas by the IDF if I believed you knew what irony was). You know, when the Irish famine was in full swing someone told a high ranking British official that the Irish were dying like flies and the British official said: ‘There are too many Irish. Some of them will have to die’. Two million of them did. Do you see the Irish invading other countries and locking people up in hell holes with no recourse to justice because two million of them were allowed to die of starvation and disease? Oh, wait a minute, I forgot. That’s what the British did to THEM. I’m sure there’s an optimal number of Palestinians for you mech’elsamberg and I know what it is. Zero. I’m also pretty certain that Israel is capable of ‘culling’ the population of Gaza as if they were feral cats. But no amount of bluster and spin will make it moral in any code or any religion, including your own.

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment

Re: By mjt01, February 16 at 6:32am, Parts I and II to Shenonymous

~~~
Absolutely SUPERB mjt01. Again, I thank you. I thank you on behalf of developing thinkers everywhere, and I will continue to share the knowledge.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 6:52 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> This isn’t revisionist history—it’s patent lies.
Who attacked first?  Israel or Egypt?

>> That’s called AN ACT OF WAR.

No it’s not.  An act of war is violating a border or firing the first shot.  Israel, not Egypt,  did both.
What Egypt, Syria and Jordan do their side of the border is their business.

Which ever way you look at it, Israel started the war.  End of story.

This is what Israel have always done.  Use any excuse, no matter how vague and describe it as an existential threat. 

>> Jordan did NOT participate in the initial battle and Israel did NOT attack Jordan (which included the West Bank).  The NEXT DAY Jordan declared War on Israel, leading to the loss of the West Bank and the mess we are in.

Right.  So Jordan declared war after Israel attacked Egypt, an ally. One act of war deserved another. What’s the problem?

The 1973 was obviously in retaliation to the 1967 attack and seizure of the Sinai.

>>  They don’t have to LIKE the Treaty—they just have to recognize that the other side doesn’t like it much either.

The treaty is subject to international law and the fact is that the Arabs League have already offered to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders.  Israel have rejected it because they refuse to give back the land they stole.

Israel is playing a game.  They are stonewalling and delaying negotiations so that they can manipulate the facts on the ground to their advantage.

Israel has always chosen expansion over peace.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2009 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

What started the 1967 war was Israel.  End of story.
****************************************

This isn’t revisionist history—it’s patent lies.

I remember—maybe you don’t—Egypt, Syria and Jordan massed 10’s of thousands of troops on Israel’s border.  Gamel Abdul Nasser bragged they were going to push Israel into the sea.

That’s called AN ACT OF WAR.

Israel did what any sane nation would do—rather than wait for their enemies to launch an attack they hit them first, and hit them hard.

Now, for a little piece of nasty truth you won’t like:  Jordan did NOT participate in the initial battle and Israel did NOT attack Jordan (which included the West Bank).  The NEXT DAY Jordan declared War on Israel, leading to the loss of the West Bank and the mess we are in.

Them’s the facts, buddy-boy, like it or not.

You can make any kind of semantic gymnastics you like, but in 1973, it was the Arab states that launched the attack. Period.  I was a freshman in college then, so I remember it well.  Initially they did well and it looked very bad for Israel’s survival…but they were beaten back and lost—AGAIN!

Now here’s another piece of reality: Israel and the Palestinians will never have peace until BOTH sides are willing to negotiate a treaty they can both live with—and that means putting aside the angry rhetoric calling the inflamed to the barricades.  They don’t have to LIKE the Treaty—they just have to recognize that the other side doesn’t like it much either.

But as long as outsiders like YOU (and you are only an insignificant contributor, like me) continue to inflame the situation again and again and again—ON BOTH SIDES, that peace cannot be.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I haven’t re-vamped the definition of “ethnic cleansing”.  It is what it is.

>> “Ethnic Cleansing” means FORCING a people out of an area, either alive or dead.  That means if they don’t leave you kill them.  Or you kill them.

The Irgun and Stern gangs did precisely this. They destroyed Arab villages (369 in fact) and killed as they went.

This has nothing to do with what the Grand Mufti might or might not have said. This event has been documented by Israeli historians Ilan Pape and Benny Morris.  Even Shlomo Ben Ami has written a book about it.

So please don’t say that Israel did not violently removed the Arab population in 1948.  It is a historical fact and you are smarter than that.

It is a matter of fact that Israel was not attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria in 1967. Everyone knows that the Six Day war was won because Israel caught Egypt, Jordan and Syria by surprise.  In fact, the 1973 war also supports this, because unlike 1967, Egypt was prepared.

What started the 1967 war was Israel.  End of story.
Of course, if you are calling Begin a liar, be my guest.  He wouldn’t be the first Israeli PM to be one.

The 1948 war was a continuation of hostilities that had already commenced years before. That was the one occasion when Israel was attacked, though hostilities were already raging.  Furthermore, the Ben Gurion already put plans in place to remove the Arabs by that stage and used the 1948 war as a pretext to carry it out.

Remember what he said:

“I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.”

~David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2009 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

Shingo:

I love how you have re-vamped “ethnic cleansing” to now mean what you want it to mean, not what it means. “Ethnic Cleansing” means FORCING a people out of an area, either alive or dead.  That means if they don’t leave you kill them.  Or you kill them.

That and that alone is “ethnic cleansing”.  Creating the State of Israel and having the Grand Mufti say “You can’t live with the Jews so leave” isn’t ethnic cleansing (at least on Israel’s part—maybe on the Grand Mufti’s part it was).

Enough Jabberwocky!

Cyrena,

To say that Israel was never attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria is simply fantasy.  You’re better and smarter than that. To mount tens of thousands of armed troops on Israel’s border and publicly state your intention is to wipe Israel off the map LEGALLY CONSTITUTES AN ACT OF WAR! (since you’re playing the “legal” card). That’s what started the 6-Day Way in 1967.  In 1973, they attacked Israel on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar—Yom Kippur—and damn near won—so much that Moshe Dayan panicked and sought to release the nuclear weapons against Syria on the Golan.

In fact, on the day in 1948 that Israel was established by the United Nations, Egypt, Syria and Transjordan, and others attacked and attempted to crush the new state.

So please don’t say that Israel has never been attacked by her neighbors—it simply cannot pass the straight-faced test and you’re smart enough to recognize that.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> You give no specifics, and make nothing but excuses for why other situations “aren’t as bad”.

Isn’t that what you’re doing in reverse?  Pointing to Darfur to suggest Israel isn’t a bad?

>> You even flat-out misprepresent “Even the Soviet Union wasn’t an occupier as long as Israel”.

Actually you are right.  The Soviets weren’t nearly as brutal as the Israelis when it came to occupation.  People were still allowed to live their lives.  Still, the Soviet occupations were much sorter than Israel’s.

>> Israel was attacked in 1967 and took the West Bank, Sinai, the Golan and Gaza then—not quite 42 years ago.

Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine of Arabs in 1948.  It’s 2009 and the refugees as still refugees. That makes 60 years.

>> the West Bank’s “occupation” is a farce
How is it a farce?  The Israeli’s have taken all the best land.  All the water.  The rest they have sliced and diced into little pieces.

>> the rest is under the Palestinian Authority.
Yeah sure. 

So why is Israel still demolishing Arab homes it deems to have been built without a permit?
Does the Palestinian Authority have the right to fly planes in and out of the West Bank?
Do Palestinians have the right to move in an out of Jerusalem?
Does the Palestinian Authority control the borders?

>> BTW, The Soviet Union occupied Germany, her attacker, but also Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. nations that NEVER attacked her. 

No one attacked Israel in 1967 either.

>> Israel was surrounded in preparation for an attack in 1967

False. 

In 1982, the Israelis admitted that they had started the war. Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him” (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982).

Take Begin’s advice wind, and be honest with yourself. It sucks when your own Israeli Prime Ministers make a liar out of you doesn’t it?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Bloxson—for once we are on the same side.

Shingo: you are so tangled up in your Israel hating that you can’t tell a fact from a fiction if your life depended on it.

You give no specifics, and make nothing but excuses for why other situations “aren’t as bad”. You even flat-out misprepresent “Even the Soviet Union wasn’t an occupier as long as Israel”.

Right. WWII ended in 1945, the USSR fell apart in 1989—45 years.  Israel was attacked in 1967 and took the West Bank, Sinai, the Golan and Gaza then—not quite 42 years ago.  Sinai was returned to Egypt almost 30 years, Gaza was turned over to local rule in, what, 2005? and the West Bank’s “occupation” is a farce—only the Golan settlements and East Jerusalem can really be considered “occupied”—the rest is under the Palestinian Authority.

BTW, The Soviet Union occupied Germany, her attacker, but also Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. nations that NEVER attacked her. 

Israel was surrounded in preparation for an attack in 1967, and took the ATTACKERS’ land—Egypt’s Sinai and Gaza, Syria’s Golan, and Jordan’s West Bank.  She has since returned more than 50%—closer to 75% of what she took from enemies, far, FAR less than the Soviets returned to nations simply caught in the middle.

Of course, Shingo believes that the simultaneous massing of Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian troops by the 10’s of thousands on Israel’s North East, East and Western borders in 1967 were merely just a 2 year advance celebration of the 3 days of Peace and Love at Woodstock and the vicious, duplicitous Jews savagely attacked these celebrants, pretending their love tubes were Soviet small arms, artillery and tanks.

Hey! Shingo! That bridge to Brooklyn is up for sale again, cheap!  Time to get in on the GREAT investment opportunity of a lifetime!

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, February 16, 2009 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment

I never have seen a “blacklisted” site blocked by Truthdig. 

This one concerns how the Palestinian prisoners are treated in Israels “Guantanamo”.

type in the http://www.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

whitewraithe.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/israels-dirty-little-secret-100-palestinian-women-locked-in-an-israeli-gitmo-raped-tortured/

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

mech’elsamberg,

>> No, I said how many live there NOW.

What is your point?  They were moved from one piece of stolen land to another. BTW that was 8000 not 800.

**** Again , avoiding the question

Not at all.  700,000 were ethically cleansed from Israel in 1948 and a lot more of them would be there now if they had not been removed.

Towns like Sderto used to be Arab villages before they were ethnically cleansed by the Israeli terrorist groups.

>> **** And Gaza is 100% Jew free.

But not free.  Israel still control the air, land and sea of Gaza.  It’s still effectively occupied.

>> ****  That was AFTER the warm NOT during.

Starving populations in Africa continue to grow, while they are starving.

>> Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat, Joseph Farah and other Arabs can also talk about the lies about the poor poor poor Transjordanians

They are Palestinians, not Transjordanians.  They came from Palestine.

And no, they are not lies.

>> ****  I don’t need to lie.

You mean it comes naturally.

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By mech'elsamberg, February 16, 2009 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

Shingo

>> How many Jews live in Gaza?

The 800 that used to live there who now live in the West Bank, which is illegally occupied.

****  No, I said how many live there NOW.

>> How many Arabs live in Israel?

A lot less than used to live there.

**** Again , avoiding the question

>> And yet Israel is called apartheid?  What a joke.

Blacks lived in South Africa during apartheid too. What’s your point?

**** And Gaza is 100% Jew free.

>> This is also the first genocide and Holocaust in history in which the population quadrupled.

The Jewish population has increased since WWII.  What’s your point?


****  That was AFTER the warm NOT during.

>> Starving?  I don’t see any photos like of Biafra, Bangla Desh, Sudan or the real holocaust.

Yes starving.

Just ask Richard Falk, the UN human rights rapporteur Israel.  he’s Jewish too.

****Falk you to Falk.  Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat, Joseph Farah and other Arabs can also talk about the lies about the poor poor poor Transjordanians

>> Any other lies you want to tell?

Why, do you have more of your own you would like to contribute?

****  I don’t need to lie.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

mech’elsamberg, February 16 at 3:43 pm #

>>  So the Jews had telephones, radio, tv etc while in those camps? 

In the Warsaw ghetto?  Sure why not?

BTW.  Not even the Germans resorted to dropping bombs on the place.

>> Only YOUR facts are anti-Semitic since they are blatant lies.

You wish. 

And a word of advice.  Your pathetic use of the anti-Semitic canard won’t protect you from being exposed for the Zionist shill that you are.

Enjoy the latest Israeli massacre.

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By mech'elsamberg, February 16, 2009 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Shingo

Cell phones and tv stations did nto exist during WWII., Facts are antisemitic.


LMAO.  So the Jews had telephones, radio, tv etc while in those camps?  Only YOUR facts are anti-Semitic since they are blatant lies.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

mech’elsamberg,

>> They have a zoo there.  They have tv, cell phones, their own tv stations.  Their population is exploding.
Just more anti-Semitic nonsense.

Cell phones and tv stations did nto exist during WWII., Facts are antisemitic.

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

mech’elsamberg,

Transjordanians are their own people.

>> How many Jews live in Gaza?

The 800 that used to live there who now live in the West Bank, which is illegally occupied.

>> How many Arabs live in Israel?

A lot less than used to live there.

>> And yet Israel is called apartheid?  What a joke.

Blacks lived in South Africa during apartheid too. What’s your point?

>> This is also the first genocide and Holocaust in history in which the population quadrupled. 

The Jewish population has increased since WWII.  What’s your point?

>> Starving?  I don’t see any photos like of Biafra, Bangla Desh, Sudan or the real holocaust.

Yes starving. 

Just ask Richard Falk, the UN human rights rapporteur Israel.  he’s Jewish too.

>> Any other lies you want to tell?

Why, do you have more of your own you would like to contribute?

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By mech'elsamberg, February 16, 2009 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

How ludicrous to compare Gaza with the Holocaust.  They have a zoo there.  They have tv, cell phones, their own tv stations.  Their population is exploding.
Just more anti-Semitic nonsense.

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By mech'elsamberg, February 16, 2009 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

Oh please.  What mindless drivel.  The only ones persecuting the poor poor oh-how-poor are they(?) Transjordanians are their own people. How many Jews live in Gaza? How many Arabs live in Israel?  And yet Israel is called apartheid?  What a joke. This is also the first genocide and Holocaust in history in which the population quadrupled.  Starving?  I don’t see any photos like of Biafra, Bangla Desh, Sudan or the real holocaust.  Any other lies you want to tell?

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment

Well Inherit,

I was planning to respond to the same questions that Shingo did, to what is clearly rhetoric from you in terms of how the ‘rules’ are only applied to Israel. You know as well as the rest of us, that is simply a falsehood, because the extensive list of Israels violations of SO MANY resolutions and earlier agreements is a matter of record. Not that ALL of these abuses and crimes have been recorded, but there are enough of them.

AND you know as well as the rest of us, that Israel has NEVER been penalized for a single one of them. EVER. Accusations based on the obvious observations aside, (Including the World Court juris opinio on the Apartheid Wall that Israel built on Palestinian land) the crimes of Israel have been noted but absolutely never, ever, ever, punished, and I would challenge you to point to a single occasion of such ‘official’ sanction that would have in anyway prompted Israel to consider the consequences of their actions. NO ECONOMIC sanctions by the rest of the International Community. No ANYTHING.

Based on that very obvious condition of the geopolitical environment, (Israel does what it wants and is never penalized) you and the others of your persuasion resort to the standard “They did it too” defense which is a lame defense/excuse in ANY circumstances. WHATEVER the Arabs have done to their own populations in terms of civil/domestic abuse does NOT mean that it’s OK for Israel to kill off a bunch of them as well. The Arabs have NOT inflicted any ‘harm’ on Israel, not from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and I could keep going. When have any of them attacked Israelis ITW? Egypt and Israel signed an agreement in 1978. They’ve been OK since. So WHO exactly is it that you claim (among the Arab states) to be perpetrating the same atrocities against Israel as Israel has perpetrated against every other Arab state in the region, since Israel was created? WHO ARE THEY ITW?

Over the past 60 years, Israel has attacked, (with military force) nearly every single neighboring Arab state. As recently as two years ago, they attacked Syria, and there were no repercussions.  Nothing happened. They attacked Lebanon AGAIN in the summer of 2006, (3rd or 4th time for Lebanon) and NOTHING HAPPENED. When Israel does this, they use bombs that keep on killing the civilian population long after they’ve brought their attack aircraft back to the hangers. This is why the world community has attempted to pass legislation making it illegal to use these cluster bombs that keep on killing, but to little avail.

Meantime, at least SOME of the Arab and other abusers HAVE been brought to account for their crimes, including Bashir in the Sudan. There’s finally a warrant issued for him, for crimes of Genocide, and while it remains to be seen what actually happens (if anything) from that, at least it has long been acknowledged that the Crime of Genocide has been on-going in Darfur, and we KNOW who is perpetrating it, just as we finally figured that out in reference to Rwanda, Bosnia, and others.

The 60-year old crimes of Israel against the Palestinian population have never even been acknowledged as the crimes that they are, and the Zionists continue to do everything they can to cover it up, and to deny, deny, deny, deny, that it is what it is: GENOCIDE, ETHNIC CLEANSING, or CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, or whatever else legitimately applies in this case, as it has with all of the other cases of Genocide.

TBC

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By cyrena, February 16, 2009 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
On this:
And please, do elaborate who on this forum is opposing Israel’s existence.
************************************************
You, Robert, FolkTruther, Fadel, Tony Wicher, and that’s just for starters.  Every one of you has opposed the IDEA of Israel being a safe haven for Jews in the world—the only one.

ITW,
I’m not prepared to speak for anyone of these people, other than to say that the IDEA of a Jewish State, (ie, the politics of Zionism) isn’t the issue. The IDEA as a STAND ALONE concept, isn’t the issue, nor is it NEW. Similar IDEAS have been around a long time, including a number of “Back to Africa” movements originated here in the US and elsewhere, for the very same ideological reasons, TO ADDRESS THE DIASPORA OF THE AFRICAN POPULATION, keeping in mind that according to most recorded numbers, over 5 million people (men, women and children) were kidnapped from their natural and native enviornments, to be incorporated into slaves to service a large portion of the globe at the time.
So the Jews claim this SAME Diaspora, based on their experiences in Germany and throughout Europe at the time of WWII, as their ‘reason’ for needing a haven for Jews in the world. So far, so good, even though we ALL KNOW by now, that the Zionist Movement to create Israel as a state for Jews only was in the works LONG BEFORE the carnage of WWII, so your defense falls flat in terms of the Jewish Holocaust.
Even so, the IDEA of a Jewish State isn’t the issue as much as what was required to accomplish and maintain such a state, and that has been the EXTERMINATION and dislocation of a huge population of people from THEIR original habitat, who had NO PART in the Holocaust of, or the extermination of, or the killing of mass numbers of Jews in EUROPE!
In fact, AT THE VERY SAME TIME that Hitler’s Nazis were doing their human carnage in Europe, Jews were already well into the formation of their state of Israel in the Middle East. Herzl had come up with the idea in the late 1800’s and by the time of WWII, Israel had ALREADY BEEN SELECTED as the ‘safe haven’ for Jews world wide. It meant distroying the population of Arabs currently occupying the area, and Ben-Gurion acknowledged it right here:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

  ~David Ben-Gurion quotes (Polish born Israeli Statesman and Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63). Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation, 1886-1973)

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if-i-were-an-arab-leader-i-would-never-sign-an/347288.html

Then this,  ALSO from the Father of the Nation of Israel
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/we_must_use_terror-assassination-intimidation/346611.html
So no. It isn’t the IDEA of a so-called ‘safe haven’ for Jews throughout the world, and since only a tiny percentage of the world’s Jews actually LIVE there, how is it supposed to provide a ‘safe haven’ for all of them anyway? It can’t, which is why yours is a strawman argument. It’s not about the ‘idea’ of a Jewish Only State, it’s what is required to actually realize such an endeavor.

That IS: terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

That’s what is REQUIRED (in David Ben-Gurion’s own words) to assure the ‘existence’ of the State of Israel.

DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM HERE???

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment

Howard,

There are no myths concerning ethnic cleansing.  They are histociallu documented by benny Morris, Ilan Pappe and Shlomo Ben Ami (former Israeli foreign minister).

>> Certainly the nonsense about land grabbing and occupation is nonsense.

No it is not nonsense.  The West Bank is referred to as occupied land because it is occupied and does not belong to Israel.  Israels’ courts refer to the settlements as illegal because they are.

>> And it is not a question of a two-state solution. Israel agreed to that a long long time ago.

So has Hamas.

>> No, it’s a question that the Pal’s and the arab states do not recognize and will not recognize Israel’s right to exist.

You re a liar.  The Arab states made a offer 6 years ago to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders.

Israel has rejected the offer.

Why do you even bother with the BS Howard?

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By Shingo, February 16, 2009 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> Has any of those standards been applied to the Soviet Union following WWII?

The world condemned the Soviet Union’s invasions after WWII.  Ironically, none of the Soviet Union’s occupations of other countries lasted nearly as long as Israel’s.

Were the standards applied to Afghanistan?  Sure, which is why the US funded and backed the mujahadeen against the Soviets.

>> How about to the PRC occupying Tibet?

It’s been condemned worldwide, but vetoed at the UN (sounds familiar).  Hasn’t been nearly as long as Israel’s occupation.

>> How about various states in Africa?

Which countries invading whom? Oh yea, Ethiopia invaded Somalia – with US approval.

>> No, the so-called “Rules” are applied to the letter regarding Israel, but ignored or bent for everyone else.

If that were true Israel would have been forced out of the West Bank decades ago, forced to pay reparations and it’s war criminals on trial at the Hague.

>> I’m guessing you are not a US citizen.  Your hatred of America, not just the Bush policies is that extreme.

I though you were no fan of the Iraq war.  Are you a non US citizens who hates America?

>> Every one of you has opposed the IDEA of Israel being a safe haven for Jews in the world—the only one.

Not a single one of us has made any argument against a safe haven for Jews, though it is highly questionable that one is needed when the vast majority of Jews live elsewhere.

> Your own following statement puts the lie to that…but there’s Iraq,

Iraq had been attacked twice since 1990, invaded and occupied.  1 million of it’s people have been killed and 4.5 million displaced. Is that sufficient punishment?

>> Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Kuwait, just to name some—all repressive states that can and will kill indiscriminately. 

Last time I looked, none of these countries had attacked, invaded,or occupied any other state.  None of them have stolen land or ethnically cleansed an entire population.

None of these countries had killed one tenth of the people Israel have killed in the past 2 years.
>> Kuwait slaughtered the folks who resisted the Iraq invasion when the US restored the cowardly Al Sabah family to power.

There you go, hating America again. BTW.  how many were “slaughtered” exactly?And what does it say about Israel when it shares the same ally as the cowardly Al Sabah family, or the Saudis?

>> The rebels are FIGHTING the Janjaweed and Sudanese effort to WIPE OUT BLACK AFRICANS!  If Israel is arming the rebels THAT IS A GOOD THING!

The Janjaweed and Sudanese ARE black Africans.  Israel are doing this because there is a dime in it for them.  They’re not giving the weapons away.

>> An Arab regime is engaging in what the UN and the World all calls genocide and you defend it!

They are Sunnis fighting Sunnis. And no, I am not defending it.

>> I have NO problem with Israel attacking by air, land, sea any location rockets are fired from.

So you have NO problem with the slaughter of a defenseless, civilian population in an open air prison?

>> Israel has the right to defend herself.

Israel was NOT defending itself. Mark Regev admitted on live television, that Hamas had fired no rockets during the ceasefire.

>> What Al Jazera and “left wing” sites call atrocities doesn’t count.

Yes, let’s listen to the right wing shall we?  They always get it so right. Pitty that Israel banned international reporters from entering Gaza.  The only reporters left were from Al Jazera, who don’t count. How convenient.

I bet the UN doesn’t count either?

>>  see so many absurd and made-up stories that simply don’t pass the straight-faced test that are posted here that the REAL ones are hard to winnow out.

What made up stories?  More hyperbole.  More straw men.  Never any specifics.

THAT is the rhetoric of propaganda meisters.

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By diamond, February 16, 2009 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

If it wasn’t for ‘Haaretz’ and the ‘Jerusalem Post’ and the journalists who work there Israel would have not one shred of dignity and honour left. Tell me anything Howard: tell me black’s white, injustice is justice, death is life, war is peace, murder is mercy but don’t tell me Israel is not a danger to world peace. I don’t believe you. And if you need to borrow my copy of ‘1984’, just let me know.

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By mjt01, February 16, 2009 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment

Howard,

“Zionism is support for Israel and its re-creation and continued growth.  Can hardly find it on a map—in any case.  Certainly the nonsense about land grabbing and occupation is nonsense.”

Holocaust denial.

The lying anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish mouthpieces Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post invent these things because they are all self-hating Jews.

Immediately during and after the occupation of Germany, many of its citizens had to be forced to look into the pits of starved and murdered bodies before they would believe what their nation had done. Some of them refused to believe what they saw with their own eyes. How are you different?

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By Howard, February 16, 2009 at 1:35 pm Link to this comment

Zionism is ok….myths exits concerning ethnic cleansing.  Might as well announce that Christianity or Islam is on a mission of ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is support for Israel and its re-creation and continued growth.  Can hardly find it on a map—in any case.  Certainly the nonsense about land grabbing and occupation is nonsense.

And it is not a question of a two-state solution. Israel agreed to that a long long time ago. No, it’s a question that the Pal’s and the arab states do not recognize and will not recognize Israel’s right to exist.

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By Trithoverlies, February 16, 2009 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

It comes down to whose land is it?  Well If you believe one of the oldiest land deeds in recorded history the land has belonged to Israel and there has never in any life time been a viable Palestinian state.  Did some Arabs leave the area in 1948 yes, but who forced them out the Israeli Government NO!! The Mufti and his thug army the Jihad Moquades not even form Palestine these thugs were recruited from the prisons of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and Persia (Iran)and armed by Hitler from 1935 to 1945, and by a faction of British anti semitec officers from 1946-1948 when the British withdrew. But a Large number of Anti Semite British such as Pasha John Glubb and the Officers of the Arab Legion of Jordan, and Egyptian army.  Seven Nations supported by military advissors from Germany, Russia, and Great Britian launched a devistating invassion of Israel on May 14th. 1948 there were just under 900,000 jews in Isreal and an army made of adhoc teenagers, Immigrants just off the boat and Kubutznic’s was able to stop Seven modern Lebenonese, Syrians, Iraqi’s, Egyptians, Saudi Arabians Irannians, Jordanians, and the Jihade Moquades mechenized Armies and infact deffeat all but the Arab Legion of Jordan tell me whose land it was and is. IT IS Israel’s the Palestinians did not exist until the Mufti brought them into existance in the late 1920’s but even so I am in favor of a two nation deal but only when both sides can be trusted to keep the peace along the border not before Israel has made concesion after concesion to appease the Arab world yet they have been attacked at ever turn 1948, 1957, 1967, 1973, and 1992, 2005. When is enough enough It is time that you anti-semites stop pushing your hate and biggoted attacks against the only mideast Democracy that existed until 2005.  Member’s of Hamas hide in civilian homes and killed civilian Palestinians yet the Internation community does not even admitt these atrocities took place why because Oil and Natural Gas thats Why, Russia shut just one pipeline down during the coldest winter in decades yet we hear almost nothing about it. The Arabs threaten to reduce the flow of oil and we hear almost nothing about it I am tired of hearing nothing about the Palestinian Concenmtration camps in Syria, and Jordan and the murder of Arab Christians in Gaza, and the discrimination against Arab Christians on the west Bank in Bethleham Its always the dirty jews fault this mantra of Europe since the lie called The Protocal of Zion. a piece of propaganda that has continued to arouse hatred in Europe against the Jews came along in the late 1890’s.  The West Bank can belong to the Palestinians if they will stop wanting all of Jerusalem for their capitol and stop treating Arab Christians as third class citizens, and recognize for once and for all Israels right to exist. In 5 years the West Bank and Israel would be awash in Petrol dollars there could be a comprehenssive peace and every Arab of Palestine and every Israeli could be millionaires all the Arabs have to do is stop killing the Israeli’s and cooperate in advanceing the marketable oil and natural gas reserves found in The West Bank in the Negev, off the coast of Israel and Gaza.

              Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Folktruther, February 16, 2009 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Cyrena- The history of Zionism in Palestine before WW 2 is garbled, distorted and convered up.  Before brewerstrupe, I didn’t know there was a history, assuming that refugee’s from the Nazis came to Israel family by family.  In fact, there was a Zionist movement based on ethnic cleansing, Ben Gurion, a right wing labor leader, being in favor of ethnic cleansing initially, as you point out.

The Zionists were armed by the British to fight the Arab uprisings to safeguard the Suez canal.  As Abbas Eban stated (A PEOPLE’S HISTORY OF THE WORLD):

“We would help the British become the ruling power and they would help us develop the Jewish National Home.”

But Britain also had an Arab clientele and restricted Jewish immingration, which led to the fight between Zionists and Britain.  What I did not know, and few in the West know, is that Zionism from the beginning, especially under Jablonski, supported ethnic cleansing and dealing with the fascists.  Ben Gurion’s protege for premier brought Jablonski’s body back to be buried in Israel as a demonctrative measure.

So massacres, terorism and false flag operations were part of the Zionist movment from the beginning.
Including against the US.  The Lavon affair sent Israeli intelligence agents into Egypt to blow up American libraries, etc to get the US against Egypt to control the canal.  It backfired when Ike halted the 1956 war by Israel, Britain and France.

The deliberate attempt to sink the American ship Liberty was also a false flag operation during the 6 day war, the straffing of American sailors in the waters being an attampt to kill any survivors as witnesses.  All this, however, has been covered up in the learned and mass media, so the American people do not understand how they are being duped by the Zionists.

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By Leefeller, February 16, 2009 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

Nelson Robison,

Defining “civilized”, requires agreement with your premise I suppose. Zionist the buzz word so well used here, reminds me of the hate filled saying “the only good Indian is….....”. Though I have never been called an Indian, though, I have been called a Zionist and a Nazi wearing Jack Boots? Disagreement for the simple Simon s of the world requires name calling. 

Mjt01

Your post provides opinion and comment on the plight of the Palestinians and is appreciated, their are bigots and hate filled zealots on both sides fueling more of the same.  Peace is and will never be unless Olive stumps are shoved up the collective arses of zealots on both sides.

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By mjt01, February 16, 2009 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,  <<< Part I >>>

It is important to stress the lack of uniqueness of a particular holocaust because all too many people think that it is a one time aberration, and that it can not happen again, or indeed that it is not happening now. Media in the US, movies, books, documentaries and “news” have shown only the suffering of one people. This creates a tremendous bias in the public mind, and this pathological opinion excuses and obscures the truth of what is happening in the middle east today.

There are any number of problems with what this. Aside from the ethical and moral issues, there is the very real problem of the endless revenge cycle.

Hitler rose to power as a result of the terrible treatment of Germany following WWI. The reparations and other punishments forced upon Germany resulted in a population that could be brought to the horrors wrecked in the name of the restoration and the German fatherland. The “War to End All Wars” was indeed nothing more than a staging for the most deadly and destructive of all wars and democides that followed twenty years later.

Had the wishes of the European allies been followed after WWII, and Germany punished even more severely, the world would likely have seen the rise of the fourth Reich already. Instead the US prevailed, and with the Marshal Plan and other humane treatment of Japan and Germany, the former enemies were converted to allies instead of continuing the revenge cycle. One of the best investments the US ever made.

The Israelis and the Americans are setting up the next revenge cycle in the Middle East. Israel sits in the middle of an enormous number of Muslims. Indeed the Israeli nation itself has a large percentage of Muslims inside it. These populations are growing incredibly quickly, much more quickly than the Jewish populations. Yet Israel treats their own Muslim citizens in a manner little different than the old South African regime treated its blacks. A little earlier this year the Central Elections Committee of Israel decided that Arab Israelis could no longer run for office. Fortunately the Israeli Supreme Court decided this was illegal, but that Court does not always make the moral and ethical judgment, and Israeli Arabs have grievous cause to know they are treated terribly. Yet the Arabs are multiply faster. Eventually there will be more Arabs in Israel than Jews. The continuing Israeli land grabs exacerbate the problem. There are fewer and fewer Jews from outside Israel that are will to emigrate, indeed many Jews in Israel want to leave.

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By mjt01, February 16, 2009 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

<<<<< Part II >>>>>

The Palestinians are treated worse. Apartheid, murder, land theft, well poisoning, forced unemployment, starvation, torture, farm destruction, torture, endless degradation and they are even walled off in a modern version of the Warsaw Ghetto. Does anyone think these people, and those who see them as kin, will forget this? They will seek their revenge when the cycle of power swings to their advantage.

And it will. The US is the primary support for Israel, economically and militarily. But the US is weakening rapidly. Useless military adventures and a corrupt government are weakening the US. The nation doubled its debt in the last eight years. The price for that has yet to be felt, and there seem to be no good solutions on the horizon. Soon Israel will be 5 million in the middle of 1000 million, and the US will not be able to support it. We will then see another turn of the revenge cycle.

Israel had a chance to stop this. Indeed in the beginning of the Israeli State, it almost seemed as though it would. But the forces of hate triumphed in Israel. Instead of elevating its Arab population to the status of equals, it has turned them into third class citizens. It has done worse with the Arabs in conquered lands.

Even with 200 nuclear weapons, Israel can not stand against those numbers. Even the Spartans couldn’t maintain their hold at a ration of 100 to 1, and Israel is trying against 200 to 1. The end result is going to be another horror. And worse, a continuation of the revenge cycle. I suspect that Israel and the US still have time to change, though not much. But there is little impetus to change, and I believe improvement is unlikely.

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By photoshock, February 16, 2009 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

There was and always has been a distinct difference between the Zionist and the person who is Jewish.
The Zionist, believes that they are the true “owners” of the “Holy Land,” and have the right to expel any other people they deem anathema to their way of life.
The most ardent Zionist, the Orthodox or Hassidic Jew, believes that none other than the Hasidim, have the right to live in Israel. Yet these same people, claim the right not to fight for Israel. They leave the fighting to those who are secular and other members of the Jewish sect.
Why does the world community stand for the Israeli claim of ignorance and innocence, when it comes to killing and torturing the Palestinians?  Why do innocent men, women and children die at the hands of the IDF and IAF and no one speaks about the atrocities that they have committed except those who have a conscience and are not fooled by the arguments
of Zionists?
The world community must call to task, the governments of Israel and the US for supporting the terror regime that has continued since the expiration
of the British Mandate in 1947. We, the people of the
world, cannot long call ourselves civilized, when we allow the atrocities and inhumane treatment of a people to continue unabated for now 60 years.
This is not merely a war to gain land, but it is a war of genocide, to exterminate a race of people because they inhabit land that the Zionist wants and which the US will let them have to salve their consciences for not allowing the European Jewish population to come to America before the start of World War II.
These are not straw man arguments nor are they ad hominem attacks against the Israeli people.  One must
face the facts that the Israeli people have stolen land from the Palestinian people, destroyed their homes and forcefully expelled them from the country that had been theirs for generations.
No “biblical” injunction can justify the killing of innocent men, women and children for the sake of “ground.”  The cost in blood and lives is too high even for a people that claim to be the victims of a Shoah, against them for their religion.
The Palestinians are now the victims of a Shoah, based not only on their religion, but also the fact that they live on land coveted by the Israeli settler.  One must remember the Ten Commandments, against “coveting.”  Or has the Torah been done away with conveniently at the time that Israel came into existence? And for those who think that I am not allowed to speak for myself, I am partly Jewish and try to live a G-dly life, not one which condemns or condones the use of force when necessary, but this measure of force that is being used against a whole people, cannot be justified by any stretch of imagination or of the Torah. 
The cost is too high, the cost in children’s lives is too high.  We are ONE! Take a stand and speak out against the Genocide of the Palestinians.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 16, 2009 at 6:01 am Link to this comment

Start off with a usual insult!

Shingo, February 15 at 9:15 pm #

Inherit The Wind,

Your hyperbole ridden straw men arguments are pitiful.
***********************************************

You don’t like them, so they are “pitiful”.  You are entitled to your opinion, biased as it is.

***********************************************
Do explain how the the most stringent interpretation of the Rules apply to Israel, and not to any other occupying and invading army?
************************************************

Has any of those standards been applied to the Soviet Union following WWII? Or Afghanistan or Chechnia?
How about to the PRC occupying Tibet?
How about various states in Africa?

No, the so-called “Rules” are applied to the letter regarding Israel, but ignored or bent for everyone else.

***********************************************
I know, I know, that leaved only Israel and the US doesn’t it?
***********************************************

I’m guessing you are not a US citizen.  Your hatred of America, not just the Bush policies is that extreme.

************************************************
And please, do elaborate who on this forum is opposing Israel’s existence.
************************************************

You, Robert, FolkTruther, Fadel, Tony Wicher, and that’s just for starters.  Every one of you has opposed the IDEA of Israel being a safe haven for Jews in the world—the only one.

*************************************************
What horrific action by any Arab state has been excused?[/i[
**************************************************

Your own following statement puts the lie to that…but there’s Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Kuwait, just to name some—all repressive states that can and will kill indiscriminately.  Kuwait slaughtered the folks who resisted the Iraq invasion when the US restored the cowardly Al Sabah family to power.

*************************************************
Why is it that every time Israel’s murderous occupation is scruitinized, her applogists scream Darfur.  Speaking of Darfur, aren’t Iarael arming the
rebels and thus furling the violence?  Speaking of Darfur, is that occupied?

*************************************************

I LOVE this!  You are actually defending Bashir’s genocide in Darfur!  The rebels are FIGHTING the Janjaweed and Sudanese effort to WIPE OUT BLACK AFRICANS!  If Israel is arming the rebels THAT IS A GOOD THING!

See what I mean?  Situational Ethics.  An Arab regime is engaging in what the UN and the World all calls genocide and you defend it! But Israel is constantly made out to be the greatest evil ever!

****************************************************
>> Put the same situation in another context and they squirm and try to argue the rules no longer apply.

You can put the situation into any context you like.  You’re merely trying to point to suggest that the existence of worst atrocities than those by Israel is reason to excuse what Israel is doing.

Now let’s watch as you squirm.
****************************************************

Not squirming at all.  I have NO problem with Israel attacking by air, land, sea any location rockets are fired from.  Israel has the right to defend herself.  I have also no problem with the International Court investigating and prosecuting any abuses or “atrocities” if they can be proven. What Al Jazera and “left wing” sites call atrocities doesn’t count.

I see so many absurd and made-up stories that simply don’t pass the straight-faced test that are posted here that the REAL ones are hard to winnow out.

Squirm? Only in your fevered brain!

That’s the rhetoric of propaganda meisters.

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By Shenonymous, February 16, 2009 at 5:47 am Link to this comment

Dear Shingo, you surely are a blindman.  You must read your anti-Semitic brethren’s diatribes if you could wade through it, that is.  Maybe you need hip boots and a white stick with a red tip to help you navigate the unending diarrhea of the mind that has given off the most putrescence I’ve smelt in a long time.  It is so bad that it even comes through the Internet!  Unless of course you need some lessons in English since that is the language they are using these days.  It would be ridiculous to rewrite the unending miles of vituperation that has splotched these forums to show the hateful anger that seethes through.  It reminds me of the attacks by those who wear white pointy hats that use to carry ropes and hang men from trees in the South of America.  Why I can even smell burning Jewish human flesh, again!  The insanity that has emerged on the forums about Israel, Palestinians, and Gaza is classic to behold and will go into history books about the ugliness that can be displayed on the electronic media where the safety of a home in the soft flooding light from computers allows narrow-mindedness to be enjoyed in privacy.  Racist mouths are not at a minimum here.

So this worm, me, Shenonymous, will try to squirm my way out of the absolute shit that has piled so high in Truthdig forums.  It is the rule of the fanatic mob that has the high ground, at the moment.  The hate has gone beyond redemption, is the way one friend put it to me this morning.  Call me a Jew sympathizer if you want, a Zionist, call me anything you want at all.  I am happy to be the object of hate for I stand for decency.  I stand for the rational and self-reflecting mind.  For I stand for human morality.  One of you appeals to Jews of Conscience, I appeal to Arabs of Conscience, which may not be able to be found, not even one, because their head swiftly would be removed if they spoke up!  I appeal to lucid powers of thought.  I appeal to the brave.

There is complete denial that Israel has a right to anything at all.  Denial that Hamas would have been just as vicious had it only had the equivalent weapons that Israel has.  Denial that the Arab world has never helped the Palestinian and no wondering why.  Denial is the tool of the fanatic.  There are other tools.  Name-calling is one of them which serves only to release the venom that is permanently trapped in confused souls.  The Jews are being raked once more by those who have banded together like vultures to fester mass hysteria.  Unfortunately for the rest of the world, the Jews are the better warriors and have shown that for decades. They have had to be from the incessant attacks they received over half a century to be sure.  They own their land.  It is their country.  It is the Palestinian who has never had land of their own.  The ethnic name the Arab nomads assumed as Palestinian is a name given to the region by the Romans.  It is these Palestinians who uses thugs to shelter them and who in turn use them as shields to hide their cowardice.  That is why 1300 of them died in this war. There was no righteousness in that.  It is an amazing theater of absurdity.  If there is any stealing going on it is the eternal attempt to steal Israel from the Israelis.

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By mike, February 16, 2009 at 12:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Location   Dates   Est. Deaths
Cambodia   1975–1979   2,035,000
China (KMT)  1928–1949   10,075,000
China (PRC)  1949–1987   77,277,000
China (Mao)  1923–1949   3,465,000
Colonialism   1900–Independ   50,000,000
Congo Free Stat   1885–1908   10,000,000
Germany   1933–1945   20,946,000
Japan       1936–1945   5,964,000
Pakistan   1958–1987   1,503,000
Poland       1945–1948   1,585,000
Mexico       1900–1920   1,417,000
North Korea   1948–1987   1,563,000
Russia       1900–1917   1,066,000
Turkey       1909–1918   1,883,000
Vietnam   1945–1987   1,670,000
Yugoslavia-Tito   1944–1987   1,072,000
U.S.S.R.  1917–1987   61,911,000

mjt01, thanks for posting this list. It really puts the total death toll in the I-P conflict of less than 20,000 (over 60 years) in perspective, and clearly demonstrates just how minor it is, and how much less violent the Israelis have been in their wars than virtually any other people in the world. It’s really extraordinary how the Israelis have been able to keep the Palestinian casualties down while still defending themselves. Something all Jews can be extremely proud of.

BTW, though, you missed listing Britain’s contributions to genocide. Over a million in Malaysia during the 50s, and millions more in Kenya and the rest of Africa. Not to mention their contribution to killing a million in Iraq just recently. And your figures on Vietnam are extremely inaccurate. Christians killed between three and six million there, plus at least 4 million cases of birth defects from Agent Orange and such. So far, at least. The birth defects will be continuing for some generations.

Is there some reason that the very, very many genocides perpetuated by Christians, especially the British, seem to be missing from the list??? The British are thousands of times more violent than the Israelis. They are the last people on the planet who should be criticizing others. The very last.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

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I just happened upon this article by accident, following a link to something else that Robert had posted. It was like a ‘déjà vu’ or episode of mental telepathy or something, because of course this is exactly what I’ve been attempting to articulate to the most Orthodox of our forum Zionists; Sepharad, Shenonymous, (there’s no hope for Howard) Inherit the Wind, and others that are otherwise seemingly reasonable and intelligent people in most other respects.
But these blinders have been so thoroughly affixed by this age-old myth of how it became OK to steal the land of another population and genocide them in the process. I swear I think this mentality/ideology or subcategory of massive DENIAL, and needs its own DSM code. 
Anyway, for what it’s worth – an appeal to Jews of Conscience.

Oh, the female journalist who received and posted this article in her newspaper was fired the following day. (not a surprise, but we’ve really gotta do something here folks…)

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/anti-zionism-cost-a-jew-her-job/#comment-16692


Quest for justice

By Judith Stone

I am a Jew. I was a participant in the Rally for the Right of Return to Palestine . It was the right thing to do.

I’ve heard about the European holocaust against the Jews since I was a small child. I’ve visited the memorials in Washington , DC and Jerusalem dedicated to Jewish lives lost and I’ve cried at the recognition to what level of atrocity mankind is capable of sinking.

Where are the Jews of conscience? No righteous malice can be held against the survivors of Hitler’s holocaust. These fragments of humanity were in no position to make choices beyond that of personal survival. We must not forget that being a survivor or a co-religionist of the victims of the European Holocaust does not grant dispensation from abiding by the rules of humanity.

“Never again” as a motto, rings hollow when it means “never again to us alone.” My generation was raised being led to believe that the biblical land was a vast desert inhabited by a handful of impoverished Palestinians living with their camels and eking out a living in the sand. The arrival of the Jews was touted as a tremendous benefit to these desert dwellers. Golda Meir even assured us that there “is no Palestinian problem”.

We know now this picture wasn’t as it was painted. Palestine was a land filled with people who called it home. There were thriving towns and villages, schools and hospitals. There were Jews, Christians and Muslims.

In fact, prior to the occupation, Jews represented a mere seven per cent of the population and owned three per cent of the land.

Taking the blinders off for a moment, I see a second atrocity perpetuated by the very people who should be exquisitely sensitive to the suffering of others. These people knew what it felt like to be ordered out of your home at gun point and forced to march into the night to unknown destinations or face execution on the spot. The people who displaced the Palestinians knew first hand what it means to watch your home in flames, to surrender everything dear to your heart at a moment’s notice. Bulldozers levelled hundreds of villages, along with the remains of the village inhabitants, the old and the young. This was nothing new to the world.

Poland is a vast graveyard of the Jews of Europe. Israel is the final resting place of the massacred Palestinian people. A short distance from the memorial to the Jewish children lost to the holocaust in Europe there is a levelled parking lot. Under this parking lot is what’s left of a once flourishing village and the bodies of men, women and children whose only crime was taking up needed space and not leaving graciously. This particular burial marker reads: “Public Parking”.

(Continued)

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 10:32 pm Link to this comment

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“I’ve talked with Palestinians. I have yet to meet a Palestinian who hasn’t lost a member of their family to the Israeli Shoah, nor a Palestinian who cannot name a relative or friend languishing under inhumane conditions in an Israeli prison. Time and time again, Israel is cited for human rights violations to no avail. On a recent trip to Israel , I visited the refugee camps inhabited by a people who have waited 52 years in these ‘temporary’ camps to go home. Every Palestinian grandparent can tell you the name of their village, their street, and where the olive trees were planted. Their grandchildren may never have been home, but they can tell you where their great-grandfather lies buried and where the village well stood.

The press has fostered the portrait of the Palestinian terrorist. But the victims who rose up against human indignity in the Warsaw Ghetto are called heroes. Those who lost their lives are called martyrs. The Palestinian who tosses a rock in desperation is a terrorist.

Two years ago I drove through Palestine and watched intricate sprinkler systems watering lush green lawns of Zionist settlers in their new condominium complexes, surrounded by armed guards and barbed wire in the midst of a Palestinian community where there was not adequate water to drink and the surrounding fields were sandy and dry. University professor Moshe Zimmerman reported in the Jerusalem Post (30 April, 1995), “The [Jewish] children of Hebron are just like Hitler’s youth.”

We Jews are suing for restitution, lost wages, compensation for homes, land, slave labour and back wages in Europe . Am I a traitor of a Jew for supporting the right of return of the Palestinian refugees to their birthplace and compensation for what was taken that cannot be returned?

The Jewish dead cannot be brought back to life and neither can the Palestinian massacred be resurrected. David Ben Gurion said, “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves… politically, we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.. .The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country…”.

Palestine is a land that has been occupied and emptied of its people. Its cultural and physical landmarks have been obliterated and replaced by tidy Hebrew signs. The history of a people was the first thing eradicated by the occupiers. The history of the indigenous people has been all but eradicated as though they never existed. And all this has been hailed by the world as a miraculous act of God. We must recognise that Israel ’s existence is not even a question of legality so much as it is an illegal fait accompli realised through the use of force while supported by the Western powers. The UN missions directed at Israel in attempting to correct its violations of have thus far been futile.

In Hertzl’s ‘The Jewish State’ the father of Zionism said: “We must investigate and take possession of the new Jewish country by means of every modern expedient.” I guess I agree with Ehud Barak 3 June,1995 when he said, “If I were a Palestinian, I’d also join a terror group.” I’d go a step further perhaps. Rather than throwing little stones in desperation, I’d hurtle a boulder.

Hopefully, somewhere deep inside, every Jew of conscience knows that this was no war; that this was not G-d’s restitution of the holy land to it’s rightful owners. We know that a human atrocity was and continues to be perpetuated against an innocent people who couldn’t come up with the arms and money to defend themselves against the western powers bent upon their demise as a people.

We cannot continue to say, “But what were we to do?” Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism. I wholly support the rally of the right of return of the Palestinian people.”

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By Shingo, February 15, 2009 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Your hyperbole ridden straw men arguments are pitiful.

Do explain how the the most stringent interpretation of the Rules apply to Israel, and not to any other occupying and invading army?

I know, I know, that leaved only Israel and the US doesn’t it?

And please, do elaborate who on this forum is opposing Israel’s existence. 

What horrific action by any Arab state has been excused?

Why is it that every time Israel’s murderous occupation is scruitinized, her applogists scream Darfur.  Speaking of Darfur, aren’t Iarael arming the
rebels and thus furling the violence?  Speaking of Darfur, is that occupied?

>> Put the same situation in another context and they squirm and try to argue the rules no longer apply.

You can put the situation into any context you like.  You’re merely trying to point to suggest that the existence of worst atrocities than those by Israel is reason to excuse what Israel is doing.

Now let’s watch as you squirm.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther echoed my sentiments about the value of publicizing past genocides; put in my terms, the value of looking at history.  He does make a troubling statement though about the progression of Israelis becoming Nazi-like.  I don’t mind if he makes that statement as it could be a legitimate concern, or give a reason to be nervous.  What is the problem is that he gives nothing tangible to justify his making that comparison.  It is barren and unqualified.  But he did bring up what I found to be an interesting question.  Why did so many Jews fight for Germany in World War 1?

World War I was not about The Jewish Problem.  It was more about the discomfort of the German aristocracy with the increasing demand for democracy and the growing trade barriers, namely, and again, it was about money.  Napoleon emancipated the Jews across Europe, but with Napoleon’s fall in 1815, growing nationalism resulted in increasing repression. In 1819, Hep-Hep riots destroyed Jewish property and killed many Jews. The Revolution of 1848 tended towards freedom for the Jews, and in 1871, with Bismark’s unification of Germany, came their liberation, but the financial crisis of 1873 created another era of repression.

Beginning in the 1870s, anti-Semites of the völkisch movement were the first to describe themselves as such, because they viewed Jews as part of a Semitic race that could never be properly assimilated into German society. Such was the ferocity of the anti-Jewish feeling of the völkisch movement that by 1900, anti-Semitic had entered English to describe anyone who had anti-Jewish feelings. However, in spite of massive protests and petitions, the völkisch movement failed to persuade the government to revoke Jewish emancipation, and in the 1912 Reichstag elections, the parties with völkisch-movement sympathies suffered a temporary defeat.

Jews experienced a period of nearly legal equality from 1848 until the rise of Nazi Germany.  Fritz Stern, the historian, had the opinion that by the end of the 19th century, what had emerged was a Jewish-German symbiosis, where German Jews had merged elements of German and Jewish culture into a unique new one.

However, statutory equality and actual practice did not coincide. As Walter Rathenau found out, even in 1905 there was hardly any chance of a Jew receiving a judgeship, and even then only if the Jewish candidate renounced his faith and converted to Christianity.
A leaflet published in 1920 by German Jewish veterans in response to accusations of lack of patriotism: “12,000 Jewish soldiers died on the field of honor for the fatherland”

A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than that of any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany—in fact, some 12,000 died for their country. Ironically, it was a Jewish lieutenant, Hugo Gutmann, who awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, to a 29-year-old corporal named Adolf Hitler. When Hitler came to power in 1933, Gutmann left Germany and escaped to the United States.

However, in October of 1916, the German Military High Command administered Judenzählung (census of Jews). This was designed to confirm accusations of the lack of patriotism among German Jews, the census disproved the charges, but its results were not made public.  Denounced as a “statistical monstrosity”, the census was a catalyst to intensified anti-Semitism and invent social myths such as the “stab-in-the-back legend” (Dolchstosslegende).

Many German Jews received high political positions such as foreign minister and vice chancellor in the Weimar Republic. The Weimar constitution was the work of a German Jew, Hugo Preuss, who later became minister of the interior. Marriages between Jews and non-Jews became somewhat common from the 19th century; for example, the wife of German Chancellor Gustav Stresemann was Jewish.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment

mjt01 no one was saying Hitler’s insanity was unique. However, it was a clever strategy to make that accusation in order to launch your own “we must do this, we must do that” kind of argument but it is lame indeed for it makes you sound as if you were in a pulpit.  What if it is not true that humans in the numbers that would be significant could rise above their monstrous selves?  It is one thing to speculate on what ifs and another thing to know what the polity is capable of.  I can see how much “fun” it can be to do that from an easy computer chair.  Does yours have arms and an overstuffed seat on it or not?  It could make a difference on how you view social abilities.  We are talking about the Jews and in the 20th century it was Hitler’s insanity that invented the Jew as the reviled pariah and on that account millions of Jews were annihilated.  Does it matter if that were done after he was unable to determine if they had any cash value or not?  So would you say Hitler was or was not insane?  I will be glad to talk about other insane tyrants such as Mussolini who also put to death and treated savagely human beings, or the Lebanese King Hafez al-Assad who murdered 20,000 Syrians, Pinochet of Chile, Saddam Hussein, Josef Stalin, Robert Mugabe, Mao Tse-tung to name a few more.  I know you will forgive me if I left anyone out, and but we don’t have time right at the moment to examine their form of human extermination.  That moment might come soon though, one never knows.

FYI:  I always wear steel-toed boots so that there is never any danger of hurting either big toe, and besides I can kick ass much better with them.  I also laugh at those who wear sandals with no big toe protection as they would be doomed if they happened to step in some crap as well, all metaphorically speaking.  And quite frankly I don’t care whose takes the baby, or even if it is cut down the middle as King David would have done.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

By dihey, February 15 at 5:51 pm #
•  “The sad truth is that the “holocaust” could have been totally averted at least for the German Jews. Until about 1939 Hitler preferred that all Jews leave Germany rather than gassing them.”

dihey,

Thanks for this info. I absolutely NEVER knew this; Hitler’s original intent to expel rather than gas the Jews.

But, it also confuses my time line on some things, which probably means I need to go back and check it. Still, by this particular time, (1938 in fact) the Herzl plan for Jews to create their own state in Palestine was already in place. David Ben-Gurion said this in 1938, (10 years before the actual creation of the State of Israel) in reference to the Palestinians occupying the land at the time:
“I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it.”

~David Ben-Gurion to the Jewish Agency Executive, June 1938.

Now that timing fits very well with the other references that put several Zionist recruitment organizations in Germany, AND actively working with Hitler –allowing his brutality of other Jews for the propaganda value – that much more reason why they ‘deserved’ a State of their own. (or at least that was the already being hijacked as the ‘excuse’ for this need, though the Herzl project was in the works long before Hitler started persecuting Jews in Germany.)

So, I don’t know what to make of this. If Hitler was still willing or considering, (at least up to about 1939) an expulsion of the Jews rather than the wholesale slaughter by gassing, why didn’t more of them just go to Israel at the time? There’s something eerie or otherwise kind of weird to consider that in 1938, Israel’s first and third Prime Minister, Ben-Gurion, was already talking about how HE planned to expel the Arabs from the region intended as Home to the Zions/Jews, that wouldn’t become ‘officially’ the State of Zion until 10 years later.

Now if Ben-Gurion was planning to expel the Arabs as early (and probably earlier) than 1938, ostensibly to make room for Jews to emigrate there from wherever they might be in the world, why wouldn’t they have worked something out to move all of the German Jews at least, to the new state before Hitler could exterminate them? At least if there ever was really a time when Hitler was willing to do that, as opposed to the more fatal carnage.

I don’t have the answer to that, and of course it has nothing to do with the fact that the land and other natural resources taken to create the state of Israel were already occupied, because it would NOT have been any ‘better’ for the Palestinians if they HAD exported all of the German Jews to what was then still Palestine. Actually, there was a lot of Jewish emigration to Palestine at the time, but they apparently weren’t any of Hitler’s then potential victims.

So, that IS a tragic irony, if that’s what it is, since the Zionist Movement was already well in progress at the time, and they were gonna expel the Palestinians anyway. Seems like they could have saved the German Jews just by moving them to the new state at the same time all the rest of the Jews were emigrating there.

The only thing I can imagine may have created a problem was the already massive immigration that the British finally tried to curtail, (with the White Paper) but it was already too late. Still, if this was occurring at a time when the White Paper was supposed to apply, (I’ll have to check the dates on it) that would have certainly made it more difficult to relocate all of Hitler’s potential victims that actually BECAME victims.

Then again, I still wonder about the propaganda advantage of being able to hold up the tragedy of Hitler’s crimes as a reason to milk the victim status forever after, and even get their own state in the deal.

So for now, I’m still wondering. Just another piece of the puzzle to ponder.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

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By Robert, February 15, 2009 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

PHOTO ESSAY ~~ NEW YORK JEWS TAKE TO THE STREETS IN SUPPORT OF GAZA

02.13.2009 | http://desertpeace.wordpress.com

I have always maintained on this Blog and elsewhere that there is a difference between Jews and zionists. The following photos are proof of that. Over 1,000 New York Jews demonstrated in front of the Word zionist Organisation and Jewish Agency against Israel’s policies in Gaza. It was a 24 hour long demonstration (still going on as I write this).

Photos © by Bud Korotzer

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2700

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By Robert, February 15, 2009 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Bishop Tutu to Hampshire College: Right on!

Archbishop Desmond Tutu Endorses Hampshire Students and Divestment!

02.13.2009 | Students For Justice In Palestine

Hi all, we have just recieved the great support and endorsement from Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

“This is a monumental and historic step in the struggle for Palestinian equality, self-determination and peace in the Holy Land by non violent means. I see what these students have accomplished as a replica of the support of their College of our struggle against apartheid in South Africa. Hampshire College’s decision to divest should be a guiding example to all institutions of higher learning.”

This is a great, great moment in our struggle!


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2699

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By Folktruther, February 15, 2009 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Dihey, there was a political problem with Jewish emigration, in addition ot the usual anti-Semitism.  The Roosevelt wing wanted war against Germany, and there was an America First movment, which included Gore Vidal, that was against involvement in European war. A large Jewish immigration to the US would tilt the balance toward war. 

The problem was similar in Britain, its ruling class wanting to back Hitler against the Soviet Union.  The West took celebrity Jews, like Einstein and Freud, but hundreds of thousands would have been a big problem for them.

Some did go to Bogata.  I had a roomate in college who was a Jew from Columbia, and he said there was a Jewish community there, I don’t remember how large.

It was quite true that the first Nazi plan was for Jewish emmigration. The killing started in earnest when Germany began losing the war.  To keep up morale of the Nazi hierachy, according to Chris Harman in his PEOPLE’S HISTORY OF THE WORLD.  This killing and slave labor was done DESPITE its economic cost, since it would have been more effective to use Jews and other minorities as specialists.

That is why I am nervous about the Palestinians.  The Israelis are getting increasingly Nazi-like.

A hundred thousand Jews fought for Germany in world war 1.

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By dihey, February 15, 2009 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

Sorry

I forgot to mention that my (German) Jewish father was incarcerated in Buchenwald at the time. He would have been freed and allowed to join us in Amsterdam en route to Bogota. My mother would not have moved to Bogota without him.

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By Passing the Wind, February 15, 2009 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“it” (Holocaust)  “OBSCURES THE VIEW OF THE PRESENT”!  Only because it subtracts from the Myopic visions of bigots but infarct calls attention to their seething present and past hate. My selected present genocide trumps your old worn out one, at the same time ignoring all the rest, for the past is not the present.  Seems to me anything would obscure the view of the present coming from such a simple tunnel vision point of view.  Wonder who the real obscurer is?

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By dihey, February 15, 2009 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

The sad truth is that the “holocaust” could have been totally averted at least for the German Jews. Until about 1939 Hitler preferred that all Jews leave Germany rather than gassing them. Only two places in the world accepted Jews at the time namely Bogota and Shanghai but the numbers that migrated there were puny. I know because we almost migrated from Amsterdam/Netherlands to Bogota. We could not leave because the war started before our papers were in order.

Several countries could have opened their borders from 1933 until 1939 for assisted entry of all endangered European Jews specifically USA, Canada, and Australia, especially after the “Kristallnacht” had made the Nazi bestiality “crystal clear”.

Would Hitler have accepted their offer? That is hard to say retroactively but considering the fact that he obliged men with one or two Jewish grandparents to serve in the “Wehrmacht” until 1942 and actually “Aryanized” a number of Jews to serve as high officers in the German armed forces (at least two Generals) shows that he was less of a megalomaniac than generally pictured. I believe that his decision would have depended on how much the remainder of the world was willing to pay him for letting the Jews go.

Tragically the Atlantic Ocean was wider than the Red Sea.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

By mjt01, February 15 at 8:34 am

•  “History has a way of being rewritten. Sometimes overtly. Sometimes passively. Sometimes one event is portrayed as a unique occurrence, when it is but one instance of tragedies that echoes throughout history.”

mjt01,

Brava and thank you!! Very well put. I’ve been trying to make the same point, (several dozen times and ways) on this forum, and I’m just not successful in articulating this point. In fact, all I manage to do in most cases, is piss off the willfully unenlightened, by pointing out these very inconvenient truths of a history that has been rewritten both passively and overtly, from the very beginning of the ‘occurrence’ that was not at all unique. Tragic yes, just not uniquely so.

You explain here, why this rewriting of history is so terribly dangerous…

•  “Never again!” One can only wish for such a wonderful outcome. But, by pretending that Hitler’s insanity was somehow unique not only does injustice to the past victims, it obscures the view of the present.

Specifically, it OBSCURES THE VIEW OF THE PRESENT!!

That’s EXACTLY the point I’ve been trying to make. If nobody knows the truth about the past, (or chooses not to know) then it obviously skews their view of the present. The problem is, the majority of the die hards here on this forum actually WANT it that way. They WANT everyone else to believe their own very distorted version of the truth, because the real facts would completely blow their excuse for supporting the 60 year old Palestinian Genocide that has continued for far longer than any other Genocide in modern history.  ( unless we consider the Native American Genocide which was also a much slower and probably more painful process as a result).
So no, Hitler’s insanity was not unique then, or since. In fact, one of the results of the propaganda value of the rewritten history is that Hitler’s crimes are almost always been presented without mention of the very same crimes occurring at the very same time, under the Stalinist Regime. Hitler and his Nazis weren’t the only ones running death camps at the time. The Russians were doing plenty of human damage at the same time, and many of those victims were Jews!

But those crimes don’t have the same ‘propaganda value’ as Hitler’s crimes, because Stalin persecuted indiscriminately…it wasn’t ‘just’ Jews or Blacks, or a few other minorities like homosexuals under Hitler. Nope, they got everybody..Jews (at least the land owning ones) the physically and mentally handicapped, homosexuals, peasants, on and on. They didn’t kill all of these people in ovens, but I would say an equal number of them died from the conditions of the camps and total neglect once they’d been locked up in them. Still, that is never even referenced in the history that the hard core Zionist mentalities present to us on these and other forums. I think it’s because the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis have greater ‘shock value’, especially because of the ovens and gas chambers. For some reason, that has been portrayed as a more heinous way to die than say…starvation, torture, or firing squad. I’m not sure why that is, since it was an officially state sanctioned method for executing persons convicted of capital crimes here in the US until just a few decades ago. (Gas Chamber executions that is).

Anyway, trying to get the corrected record out at this point is a HUGE challenge, as many a scholar have learned. The careers of many people (Specifically brave Jews) have been targeted and destroyed because of their courage in putting the truth out there. The cruelest part of the irony/paradox is that these brave people, Jews and non-Jews alike, are painfully aware of how critical it is for their brethern to accept the truth of their history in terms of their presence in the region, so that they can understand what’s required to assure their CONTINUED presence in the area.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment

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But, it’s like trying to give a nasty tasting medicine to a sick child or pet. You desperately want to get the stuff into their system, because you know that it’s gonna make them feel better, and neutralize the source of the illness, what ever that might be. But, they kick and scream and simply refuse to take it. My last and still cherished canine companion used to drive me nuts with that.  When she was sick several years ago, I tried every way under the sun to give her the meds that she needed. If they were in pill or capsule form, I would bury them in a pile of dog food, (she was a big dog) and that hussy would eat the ENTIRE pile of food, and SOMEHOW MANAGE to leave that single pill or capsule in the bowl, and even lick them clean. As I considered other ways, I realized things had pretty much digressed if I found myself having to match wits with a canine. I tried just shoving it down her mouth as well, and even holding her snout closed until she swallowed it. That didn’t work either. It became a game of who can hold out the longest.

And so it is with so many people who simply cannot face the truth of a history that is different than the one they’ve been taught. It’s too painful, like a parent having to accept that their child is a mass murderer or other similar monster. In other cases, they know very well that the history has been intentionally ‘adjusted’ and that’s the way they intend to keep it, because so far, maintaining the propaganda version of the history has satisfied their ultimate purpose..the creation and maintenance of a “Jewish Only” State. The self-admitted Zionists here are ferociously committed to the continued perpetration of the incorrectly revised editions of this history.

But until the former portion of the group (those in genuine denial) can come to grips with the real past, they can’t possibly conceive the reality of the present, and so their perception of current and on-going events remains skewed. Truth and Reconciliation Commissions have sometimes been helpful in addressing these gaping wounds of societies that have been abused..Rwandans, Chileans, Uruguayans, Peruvians, and a few others that have met with different degrees of success. In some cases, the victims of the abuse had to ‘settle’ for the resolution that came from simply having the crimes against them ACKNOWLEDGED! At a similar conference in Athens, the group came to the discovery that because any real ‘justice’ in the form of punishment for abusers that had been heads of states was not likely to happen, (especially when many members of the abusive regimes are still buried within the political apparatus) they would be somewhat vindicated by a formal acknowledgment and recognition of what had been perpetrated against each and every one of them.

As they put it at the time, THEY knew who the abusers were. The abusers KNEW that they KNEW who they were, because EVERYBODY knew who the abusers and the torturers were. But it was never formally acknowledged, and that’s what needed to happen. The ‘justice’ part of the reconciliation, (ie restitution for the victims and punishment of the abusers) is often an unattainable goal, but at least there’s a chance to move forward if the crimes are acknowledged.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

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I honestly don’t know if the Israelis and other Jews who are citizens of Israel no matter where they live in the world, will ever be able to manage such a session of truth and the reconciliation that can come from it. That is because of what seems to be a mentality that is as Universal to Jews as their Zionism, and you describe it here so well:

•  “You are like someone who says “My right big toe is broken”, “You can’t understand how bad it is.” “Only your left big toe is broken. Its not the same. Mine suffering is unique, and more horrible than that of any other.”

I had to laugh, and this brought to mind a similar example of Zionist mentality (OK, call it a stereotype) that was provided by another poster here a couple of years ago. He relayed something like this:

Mr or Ms Zionist sees the new born child of another person/couple and immediately demands that they give up the baby because the Zionist wants it.

“Give me the baby.”

“No, you can’t have our baby. She’s OUR baby.”

“But I want a baby, and I DESERVE to have that baby. I’m a better parent, and I will love and take care of the child better than you. Besides, YOU don’t ‘deserve’ this baby, and I do. And besides that, you OWE me this baby.”

Needless-to-say, as has been evidenced on this forum mulitiple times, it is not only Jews who have this “Zionist” mentality, but they certainly have gained the ‘reputation’ in terms of the lands illegally acquired and occupied in Palestine, and the 60 plus years of the constant reminders of what happened to THEM, under Hitler’s regime, and how it was worse than anything else that’s ever taken place in the history of mankind, before or since. It’s never about ‘we’ and ONLY about ‘me’.

It’s like they a collective and chronic case of hyper-chutzpah, and the mentality is wired to maintain it at all costs. Maybe Zionists and their ideological brethren need their own 12-Step Zionists Anonymous program.

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By Sammi Sloth, February 15, 2009 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Arbor macht frei—Work will make you free—I don’t know about the rest of you; but work has never made me free.

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By coloradokarl, February 15, 2009 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

Geopolitical persuasion 101 Pop Quiz: What works best towards PEACE?A) 1000 Lbs. of high explosives on a wedding party B)Micro loans for people to start small Businesses. Which is worth more? A) a $1 Million dollar cruise missile B) 20 $50,000 schools in a poor community?

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By mjt01, February 15, 2009 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

Basic training ca 1969 US ARMY:

DI: “What is the spirit of the bayonnet?”
Platoon: “The spirit of the bayonnet is to kill and to kill without mercy.”

You can’t kill an idea or a culture with a bayonet unless you kill everyone that holds that idea or culture. Britain proved that in America. The British didn’t learn from that. Sadly, the Americans (of which I am one) didn’t either.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

How many Ghandis and Martin Luther King, Jrs have there been?.  One of each.  How many other grand peacemakers are there?  If there are any others you could count them on one hand.  There are not that many peacemakers out there, in the real world at least of the stature of a Ghandi or MLK, JR.  You seem to be blinded by your own fixed notion of what humans are like, coloradokarl.  And your exhortations are drowning out the trooth.  When one does not accept responsibility for wrong doing, then fingers are legitimately pointed.  Dragging up history keeps the pretense of deep-seated animosities in the light and in check. Sounds like everything you ever learned about the nature of man is wrong!  Hiding reality is not the way to solve problems. 

Ghandi and King did give important messages to their respective futures that there are ways other than war to solve enormous problems.  They had genuine altruism.  But it took many lives even their own to bring the solutions they sacrificed themselves for, and others for by the way. They taught peaceful protest, but for both of them it was a struggle.  You are right, both sides of a conflict must come to the understanding of peace.  What those words mean to each side more often than not, means quite different things.  While it is noble to say not to let negative emotions blind away simple solutions, there are no simple solutions when a history of murder and savagery exists.  It is not possible to the degree you envision.  There is a cooling off period for any fire.  People’s emotions are the kindling for all the wars that have ever happened.  Kindled by leaders who have had their own acquisitional agenda.  Keeping in mind past wrongs does not mean dragging them up.  It means one must keep them as a portrait of what has happened and be watchful for signs of the same kind of wrongs to be able to point them out and their consequences when they emerge again.  Then proceed in a rational and remedial way.

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By coloradokarl, February 15, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Do you REALLy beleive Ghandi or Martin Luther King used the emotions of Fear or Hatred as fuel for their causes? I think their messages looked toward the future with an understanding of the needs of both sides of their respective situations. I am firm in my conviction that showing compassion towards BOTH sides of the Situation in Israel will bring a PEACEFUL resolution. Finger pointing, dragging up past wrongs and letting negative emotions blind us from simple solutions (full employment) is like a ball and chain in a calm sea. Quit struggling,cut the chain !

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By Folktruther, February 15, 2009 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

The comments largely ignore that the US-Israel power structures are now conducting ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians, under the guise of pretending to support a two state solution.  And it is doing so no matter which of the established political parties are in power.

The purpose of publicizing past genocides is to prevent them in the future.  Not as an excuse for one power system to massacre the people of another.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, February 15, 2009 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

But, ITW, this pretty much defines civilization, doesn’t it?

There’s gotta be a gene that tells people that, if you just look long enough, you can convince yourself that there is a justification for harming another.

If the justification is retribution, then the circle is complete.  Intelligence and civilization should imply an ability to resolve conflict w/o violence.  The world will end IMHO, before that ability is generally accepted recognized or achieved.  A consensus, if you will.  Until then, we’re an animal that shames the animal kingdom.  I’ll take a good dog any day.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 11:32 am Link to this comment

Humans have a cognitive brain and are supposed to be able to learn from history.  We probably don’t very well.  But if we do not “dwell” on the past, or problems of the past, there is only a pollyanna view of what humans are like.  And humans prove unendingly they are vicious and self-serving.  While it is a nice index card to have in one’s pocket that says Love Do Not Hate, it is unrealistic to think that will motivate the world, since most men, and women by the way, want what other men and women have.  Reality says “here is what hate does to you, and here is what caring (love) can do for you.”

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By coloradokarl, February 15, 2009 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

When posters dwell on the problems of the past That is some form hatred and ALL hatred is based on FEAR. Solutions are based on LOVE and COMPASSION. These are the Higher emotions, The “Angels of our Nature” if you will. Our choice is to breed FEAR or LOVE…..................

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 11:01 am Link to this comment

The slogan, “Never again,“ served to alleviate any residual guilt that indelibly autographed those who were impotent to prevent the genocide in Germany and now we see throughout history in hundreds of places.  It has become a meaningless phrase.  You are right, mjt01 about hatred.  Since it is the emotion that drives violence and violence is the handmaiden in the service of acquiring power, and wealth, I have been planning to make some comments about hatred, and since you brought it up, I will take the opportunity to begin.

It is the force of hatred in the individual that is always the emotional substance that propels a movement toward others who are like him/her into one fermenting unified mob. I have already talked about the need to create devils.  Gods are not needed and rarely called on except to put a false face on, as did the National Socialist Party (the Nazis) with their coating of Christianity.  But it is the power of a devil not a god that is worshipped.  The good Muslim has said Allah has been misused in the same way and that shaitan is the force that has overtaken good. 

In the book Hitler Speaks, Hitler is quoted as saying when asked if he thought the Jew must be destroyed, and he answered adroitly, “No…We should have then to invent him.  It is essential to have a tangible enemy, not merely and abstract one.” In 1938, a Japanese envoy to Germany was admiring the “magnificence” of the German Nazi movement said he wished Japan had something like it, only they couldn’t because they didn’t have any Jews. 

Those who know how to get mass movements in motion, such as Hitler, Lenin and Stalin, Mao, Osama bin Laden, and the late Khomeini who believed in Muslim unity and solidarity and the export of Islamic revolution throughout the world (and is quoted in Islam and Revolution: Writing and Declarations of Imam Kohmeini), show themselves able to pick a worthy enemy as in knowing what articles of faith to beat the drum for and what action to take (as in vilifying the Jews in Germany, and as in a jihad against Jews, Darfurans, and other westerners).  Eric Hoffer, author of The True Believer&. notes that the Kremlin could hardly wait until the end of WWII to chose America and the democratic West as The Enemy.

Common hatreds unites the most similar of elements.  Showing the chosen enemy as infected with some untreatable malady creates for the ordinary citizen an easily accepted mark.  Easily identifiable and therefore more easily persecuted.  The genius of a supreme leader is expressed in his being able to concentrate all hatred onto a single enemy even being able to unify disparate adversaries within the society so that they become a single assailant. Hoffer again, “When Hitler picked the Jew as his devil, he peopled practically the whole world outside Germany with Jews or those who worked for them.,,Stalin, too, adhered to the monotheistic principle when picking a devil.”  Formerly this devil was fascist; and continuing up to today for those who would be totalitarian, the devil is now the “American plutocrat,” the corporate Lucifers, or the Princes of Darkness Zionist Jews. “When Hitler as asked if he was not attributing too much importance to the Jews, he cried, No, no, no!...It is iimpossible to exaggerate the formidable quality of the Jew as an enemy.”

To quality as an ideal devil, a domestic enemy must be given a foreign ancestry.  Like Hitler found it easy to brand the German Jews as foreigners, the Israelis are typecast as not belonging to the Middle East, even though their ancestry is of the Semitic Nomadic tribes.

To be continued.

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By Jim Yell, February 15, 2009 at 10:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Don’t think my inclinations toward the Jews are, without critic of their actions, but lets be honest, much of this is comparing apples to oranges.

Leading up to and including WWII the Jews were set upon without having done anything hostile in return. They had served in their national armies and wars, they frequently had not even been religious, but they were all clumped to gather and locked up and killed without any reason except they were Jews.

In Gaza the people sit around and either encourage or tolerate the use of their land to launch suicide attacks and indiscriminate rockets into Israel. They are guilty of prolonging this hostility because they refuse to take responsibility for these attacks and if they don’t wish it done in their names than it is time they told their own people that it will not be tolerated.

Stop killing the Jews and they will stop killing in
Gaza. It is that simple. Never forget that they have wound up in this mess because their ancestors fell back behind the invading moslem armies that were dedicated to killing the Jews in Israel/Palestine. That is not to say that I don’t think there are Jewish hardliners who welcomed the cause of war, but the Moslems have made the Jewish actions unavoidable and justified.

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By mjt01, February 15, 2009 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

My numbers came from very much the same general source that you quote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

History has a way of being rewritten. Sometimes overtly. Sometimes passively. Sometimes one event is portrayed as a unique occurrence, when it is but one instance of tragedies that echoes throughout history.

“Never again!” One can only wish for such a wonderful outcome. But, by pretending that Hitler’s insanity was somehow unique not only does injustice to the past victims, it obscures the view of the present. We must accept that the capacity for such monstrous behaviors lives in all of us. But that we can rise above it if we are willing to look critically at ourselves. But when hatred rules us, we become what we hate. We do the same thing to others that was done to us, we can not see it, and worst of all, we call it good and proper.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

Indeed thebeerdoctor, politics makes strange bedfellows and the peculiar thing not often noticed is that the fickle bedfellows change partners as the more beautiful (in the Socratic sense) come on the scene.  Politics is an immoral and ugly activity of humankind.  But more uglier is their use of human flesh to satisfy their compulsions.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

Yes, mjt01, I was hasty in that comment.  I suppose I was thinking that within the period of time the number of Jews butchered was unprecedented.  Not as omniscient nor omnipotent as I thought, I apologize for falling from grace and having made a rash statement.  I don’t make too many though.  The deity would not like it if I were perfect.  You could still answer my question of where you got your information?  Was there some other way my comment showed sophistry and was not germane to yours relative to the historical enormity of the genocide of the Jews?  And are you spinning what I said to fit what you are offering.  I did not say that the deaths of the untold billions are statistics to be ignored, actually if you were keen of mind, you would see I said just the opposite!

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By thebeerdoctor, February 15, 2009 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

re: shenonymous

The Armenian holocaust has never been acknowledged by Turkey. The recent uproar over France seeking to make it a crime to deny this monstrous event, is a case in point.
Despite all the furor over the unending conflagration in the Middle East, it might be worthwhile to consider that the formation and recognition of the country of Israel happened in the context of the newly formed cold war, so U.S. and U.S.S.R. recognition came immediately in May, 1948.
This was, as you and many others are probably aware, was a convoluted story of a power struggle between domestic advisor Clark Clifford and Secretary of State, George C. Marshall. Clifford, forever the Zionist advocate, successfully overturned the objections of the state department, including Marshall, who told President Truman: “If you follow Clifford’s advice, and if I were to vote in the next election, I would vote against you.”
But President Truman, who could possibly be considered one of our more infamous presidents, stated in a letter to his brother Vivian, concerning Palestine: “I think the proper things to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell.”
The hubris, along with the ending damnation, has pretty much settled everyone’s hash, ever since, Jew, Muslim and Christian. But leaving blame where it properly belongs, this Harry (who I am just wild about) was also duplicitous in his Middle East policy. Making Clark Clifford’s dreams come true was one thing, but when it came to a letter from Ibn Saud, he wrote this (at the time) secret response:
“I wish to renew to Your Majesty the assurances which have been made to you several times in the past that the United States is interested in the preservation of the independence and territorial integrity of Saudi Arabia. No threat to your kingdom could occur which would not be a matter of immediate concern to the United States.”
Face it: from the very beginning, this gambling wheel was fixed.

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By mjt01, February 15, 2009 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Your sophistries are not germane. You state there was nothing like the Nazi genocide.

“Just a little background information on the 20th century story of the Jews.  There was nothing like it in the world before the Nazis commenced to exterminate the Jews…”

So tell me how this is different than in 1928 having enormous lines of of bound Ukrainians lying on the ground waiting to have their heads bashed in with a sledge hammer, because it was cheaper than shooting them.

You are like someone who says “My right big toe is broken”, “You can’t understand how bad it is.” “Only your left big toe is broken. Its not the same. Mine suffering is unique, and more horrible than that of any other.”

You say that the deaths of the Jews is something that everyone should clutch to their heart as the worst tragedy of the world, but the deaths of these others are just statistics to be ignored.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 8:37 am Link to this comment

But but but mjt01 you gave only half of the story and some’s story not at all.  You have not been exact in your report although it looks like you were.  Could you please provide the source for your figures so those interested may take a look? 

For instance, you did not say who were the casualties, you gave only vague groups.  I didn’t see the Armenians, or the Kurds, or the Iraqis, nor any for India, or Darfur and Chad, and Gaza.  And how about the massacres of the Native Americans (North), and White Settlers of Early North America, Black South Africans by the Whites, and White South Africans by the Blacks, oh yes, and the Jews.  Unless, of course, you don’t consider some of these humans as people.  If you are going to give a story, please give all of it.  For instance, please see the total WWI numbers also given country by country at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wwi_casualties
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties for WWII casulaties.  The totals are more staggering than you can even imagine.

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By mjt01, February 15, 2009 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

Humanity would have much less to be ashamed of if only Hitler’s slaughters had been unique. But tragically this was not an aberration in human behavior. It was not the first of the democides. It was not last of the genocides. Horrifically, it was not the worst of the holocausts—that designation must be saved for those like the Cambodian and some of the African massacres which used to children to select, maim and kill the victims.

The following is an unfortunately somewhat incomplete list of democides and genocides of more than a million people during the 20th century alone. Earlier times contribute far too many more victims. But this list better demonstrates mans inhumanity to many than one single episode.

Worst is that this behavior continues on and on without end. Most glaringly in Palestine, less so in Africa. Perhaps if we stop pretending that these horrors were limited to WWII, then we can accept the true nature of man—and then have some hope of putting an end to such barbaric insanity.

Location     Dates     Est. Deaths
Cambodia   1975–1979   2,035,000
China (KMT)    1928–1949   10,075,000
China (PRC)    1949–1987   77,277,000
China (Mao)    1923–1949   3,465,000
Colonialism   1900–Independ   50,000,000
Congo Free Stat   1885–1908   10,000,000
Germany   1933–1945   20,946,000
Japan         1936–1945   5,964,000
Pakistan   1958–1987   1,503,000
Poland         1945–1948   1,585,000
Mexico         1900–1920   1,417,000
North Korea   1948–1987   1,563,000
Russia         1900–1917   1,066,000
Turkey         1909–1918   1,883,000
Vietnam   1945–1987   1,670,000
Yugoslavia-Tito   1944–1987   1,072,000
U.S.S.R.    1917–1987   61,911,000

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By dihey, February 15, 2009 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

Cyrena

You have pretty well described why the history of the so-called “holy land” has developed the way it has after World War 2.

Two political acts stand out as markers of the disaster.

When Balfour “promised” Herzl a “homeland” in Palestine that region was part of the Ottoman empire! The arrogance of Balfour was typical for the Brits of his time. He was giving away territory over which he had no say!

At the end of World War 2 Palestine was a ward of the League of Nations and England was its “mandatory”. England had completely ignored its mandate to prepare the Arab Palestinians for statehood as required. Then the United Nations inherited the mandate. What legal justification did the UN have to divide a land “stolen” from the Turks after World War 1 and allow non-Arabs to settle there in large numbers ? None in my view. Given the composition of the UN today Palestine would not be divided now if a vote for that came up in the General Assembly.

The notion that Zionists would accept “half of Palestine” is belied by Herzl himself whose response to the Balfour declaration was: “we will accept half of the loaf and take the remainder later”. Of course that seemed easier in the 19th than in the 20th and 21st centuries.

I fully understand why many of the surviving German, Polish, and even Dutch/Belgian/French Jews wanted to get away from the places of horror immediately after the end of the war. It was at this time that the US government failed badly. It should have offered a special dispensation from the then pernicious immigration laws and offered immigration visas to a group of potentially highly productive US citizens. These Jews would have been infinitely safer here than in Palestine. It was a stupid mistake by the Truman administration.

I know from my contacts in Israel that most Israelis consider the Arab Palestinians to be inferior to themselves. That fact by itself explains why Israel’s governments can always be more interested in chasing the Palestinians from the West Bank than in “peace”.

However, from the same sources I know that the Israeli public is quite divided on the issue of “taking it all”. That leads to stalemate and the land-stealing for “settlers” acre-by-acre.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 15, 2009 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

“Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People”

Yes they were.  Just ask any of the so-called “progressives” here at TruthDig and they’ll tell you that the most stringent interpretation of the Rules apply to Israel, and Israel only.

These “Rules” can, according to them, be bent, broken or out-right ignored as long as it’s by anyone opposing Israel’s existence.  It goes further: ANY horrific action by any Arab state against ANYONE is excusable, as long as that state isn’t being supported by the USA.  That’s why there’s no outrage about Darfur, nor about the continuous suppression of freedom in Arab states.

The so-called “progressives” argue like high-paid lawyers or Republicans: Situational Ethics are always appropriate to “win” your POV.  Put the same situation in another context and they squirm and try to argue the rules no longer apply.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 15, 2009 at 6:18 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In his last article on TD Fisk mentioned lampshades made of skin, and shrunken heads, Holocaust ‘evidence’ that was once believed to be authentic and now recognized by all as frauds. 

Now we have Leon Greenman’s statement that his wife and child were herded onto a truck and later taken to a gas chamber and two hours later they were ashes.  The first question is how does Greenman know that?  How does he know they went to the gas chambers?  How does he know gas chambers existed?  How does he know they were ashes two hours later?  Did he see any of this?  He does not indicate that he did?  Why didn’t someone ask?  Why were the prisoners put on a truck?  In the standard account they walked from the trains to the ‘gas chambers’. 
Maybe they were simply taken to the women’s and children’s camp at Birkenau, see for example ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

With all the false accounts of holocaust experiences that have been exposed, why should we believe Greenman’s account when it seems clear he did not see what he describes?

Then, finally, let’s have a look at the Auschwitz gas chamber that is shown to visitors every day. You can see a photo of the door into the gas chamber here ...

http://www.historiography-project.com/misc/doors.html

Bishop Williamson mentioned that one of the doors was an unsealed wooden door.  Have a look, and judge for yourself if this ‘gas chamber’ is what it claims to be.

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 4:47 am Link to this comment

Quite right thebeerdoctor.  In the heat of debate I did not mention the Armenians who were slaughtered by the Turks.  I apologize for that and to all the Armenian people.  Here is a website that tells about that atrocity. 
http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
Then we have to also look at the Kurds at the hands of the Iraqis. 

Not all of the Jews in Europe were murdered in the Holocaust. After the fall of the Third Reich, Europe was a war-torn shambles. Hundreds of thousands of people were homeless and seeking a new life. These were known at the time as “displaced persons.” Among them were several hundred thousand Jews who had either survived the horrors of the concentration camps or escaped the Nazis altogether. Resettling these displaced persons was the job of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA). In 1947, because of problems with the UNRRA, a new organization, the International Refugee Organization (IRO) took over the work of finding homes for the displaced persons.

Resettling the survivors was not an easy job. When the IRO took over in 1947, there were approximately 1,200,000 Jewish and non-Jewish people looking for homes. In the next four years the IRO was able to resettle about a million people.

The Jews represented a serious problem for the IRO. They did not want to return to the homes they had before the war. Some Jews were, in fact, murdered by mobs when they tried to return to Poland. Others did not want to return to countries now run as Soviet puppet states. The problem was complicated because many countries refused to allow the survivors to enter. A large number of Jewish survivors wanted to go to Palestine; the British were against such immigration and allowed fewer than 100,000 Jews to enter before Israel declared its independence in May, 1948.

Another complication was the attitude of certain officials in the United States who deliberately impeded Jews from immigrating there despite the policy of the government to allow them to find new homes in the United States. In 1945, President Harry Truman had appointed Earl G. Harrison to make a report of the condition and needs of refugees, especially Jews. His excellent report resulted in a reorganization of UNRRA and, later the establishment of the IRO. Truman asked Congress several times to relax immigration restrictions for displaced persons and, on December 22, 1945, announced in the Truman Directive that the policy of the United States was to give preferential treatment to displaced persons. President Truman continued to be personally interested in this problem, but was unable to effectively put his policies into action.

Looking for new homes approximately 137,000 Jews came to the United States (which admitted almost 400,000 refugees). Other countries where Jews found new homes were France, Canada, Great Britain, and Israel. The two countries receiving the largest numbers of emigrés were the United States and Israel.

In the judgment of one historian, the efforts made by the United States and other countries did not meet the needs of the Jewish refugees in Europe, who were often denied the opportunity to find new homes and new lives. As Leonard Dinnerstein states in his book about the refugees: “In sum, strong national prejudices, procrastination in Congress, and some less than dynamic leadership from the White House combined to prolong the miseries of those Jews who survived the Holocaust.”

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By thebeerdoctor, February 15, 2009 at 4:38 am Link to this comment

The statement heard over and over again that there was nothing like the Jewish holocaust, before or after, seems to verify what Adolph Hitler said: “Who remembers the Armenians?”

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By Shenonymous, February 15, 2009 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

Just a little background information on the 20th century story of the Jews.  There was nothing like it in the world before the Nazis commenced to exterminate the Jews and the only thing that comes close to it in the 21st century is Darfur., where there are a whole bunch of Darfuran still alive.  Yes, not every last one of the Jews were slaughtered either.

KILLING CENTERS: OVERVIEW
The Nazis established killing centers for efficient mass murder. Unlike concentration camps, which served primarily as detention and labor centers, killing centers (also referred to as “extermination camps” or “death camps”) were almost exclusively “death factories.” German SS and police murdered nearly 2,700,000 Jews in the killing centers either by asphyxiation with poison gas or by shooting.

The first killing center was Chelmno, which opened in the Warthegau (part of Poland annexed to Germany) in December 1941. Mostly Jews, but also Roma (Gypsies), were gassed in mobile gas vans there. In 1942, in the Generalgouvernement (a territory in the interior of occupied Poland), the Nazis opened the Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka killing centers (known collectively as the Operation Reinhard camps) to systematically murder the Jews of Poland. In the Operation Reinhard killing centers, the SS and their auxiliaries killed approximately 1,526,500 Jews between March 1942 and November 1943.

There are maps available that show the Extermination Camps in occupied Poland, 1942.

Almost all of the deportees who arrived at the camps were sent immediately to death in the gas chambers (with the exception of very small numbers chosen for special work teams known as Sonderkommandos). The largest killing center was Auschwitz-Birkenau, which by spring 1943 had four gas chambers (using Zyklon B poison gas) in operation. At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz-Birkenau in Poland. Over a million Jews and tens of thousands of Roma, Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war were killed there by November 1944.

Though many scholars have traditionally counted the Majdanek camp as a sixth killing center, recent research had shed more light on the functions and operations at Lublin/Majdanek. Within the framework of Operation Reinhard, Majdanek primarily served to concentrate Jews whom the Germans spared temporarily for forced labor. It occasionally functioned as a killing site to murder victims who could not be killed at the Operation Reinhard killing centers: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II. It also contained a storage depot for property and valuables taken from the Jewish victims at the killing centers.

If anyone is interested, there are personal stories that describes the gassing operations in the Sobibor extermination camp.

The SS considered the killing centers top secret. To obliterate all traces of gassing operations, special prisoner units (the Sonderkommandos) were forced to remove corpses from the gas chambers and cremate them. The grounds of some killing centers were re-landscaped or camouflaged to disguise the murder of millions.

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By cyrena, February 15, 2009 at 2:03 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

My own understanding of Fadel’s question referred to the high proportion of Jews CURRENTLY occupying the area/vicinity of GERMANY - NOW.

You’re certainly correct that most of us are already well informed on the details of those Jews who died, and how they came to die the way that they did. So your little mini-holocaust course here was definitely a re-run for most.

But I think the question was, why there were and remained a disproportionally high (and growing) number of Jews in the area SINCE all that carnage occurred, and to date.

Apparently, either a whole bunch of them survived the original slaughter that you drug us through, or a whole bunch of them (again survivors) must have returned to the scene of the original crime to take up permanent residence. Either are possible, but the former is far more probable.

In fact, we know this because we know that Zionists were actively working in cooperation with Hitler to create a ‘reason’ for a Jewish State – specifically in that spot that Hertzl had already selected for the Zionist set-up.  That their own people were being slaughtered for the “cause/propaganda effect’ was accepted as part of the package. All of this occurred in Germany, so it’s a logical assumption that they are there in such high proportions NOW, because they ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

The next logical conclusion is that they didn’t ALL perish, and as it would happen, they NOW CONTROL a huge portion of the political apparatus of Germany.
Now admittedly my interpretation of Fadel’s question doesn’t have any connection to what he calls the logical follow-up, because that has to do with the wisdom of Jews themselves in another area as well – specifically an area stolen from the population already living there. So, I can’t find a connection there. But, taken as the first part of the question, on why there was or is a high concentration of LIVING Jews in Germany, I think it’s because they’ve just always been there, and have acquired great political clout in the area.

So the more logical follow up might be, why did they have to steal the Palestinian territory as well? Logically thinking, once Hitler was gone, they could have ALL stayed there..the ones that have, have done quite well. So, why did they just converge on Palestine from all parts of the world as well, even while maintaining a significant presence at the original scene of the crime?

That’s a legitimate enough question.

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By Harry Benedict, February 15, 2009 at 12:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People
Sri Lanka engaged in deliberate, systematic act of genocide - LTTE
[TamilNet, Wednesday, 11 February 2009, 11:15 GMT]
The Tamil homeland is witnessing one of the worst human tragedies of the 21st century said the Political Division of the Liberation Tigers of Tamileelam (LTTE) in a statement issued in Tamil on Wednesday. More than one-thousand civilians have been killed and four-thousand are struggling to recover from the injuries amid continuous artillery barrage, air attacks and cluster bombing by the Sinhala state, the LTTE statement said. The LTTE statement categorically denied the Sri Lankan claim that a Tiger human bomb had recently attacked civilians.

“We are a liberation movement. Our fighters and the people are engaged in the struggle with total dedication and sacrifice. We categorically deny the charges that we carried out the uncivilised act,” the statement said adding that it was the Sri Lankan government that has used internationally banned cluster bombs to attack civilians. Several hundreds of civilians have been killed and maimed by the Sri Lankan bombardments, it said. The Tiger statement urged the International Community to be aware of the false propaganda of the Sri Lankan state.

“The Sri Lankan military, after demarcating an area with pockets of land as safe zone and creating an illusion of security in the minds of people, let loose a relentless campaign of bombardment on them. The resulting carnage was witnessed by the UN and ICRC representatives,” the statement said.

“The Sinhala state has blocked access to media; communication links with outside world are cut off; International Non Governmental Organisations were ordered leave by Colombo; International human rights monitors are not allowed to visit our territory; Medical supplies are banned; Many civilians die every day; Even the ICRC representatives are forced to leave the area by the Sri Lankan state; People wander from place to place seeking refuge and are forced to lead a life worse than animals in the marsh and jungles of Vanni,” the statement added.

All the countries of the world that condemn the ongoing humanitarian tragedy, should also come forward to exert pressure on the Sri Lankan state to immediately agree on a ceasefire and engage in negotiations to resolve the conflict, said the statement of the political division of the LTTE.

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By Shenonymous, February 14, 2009 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment

It is always stunning envisioning the posed naiveté that arises when someone asks a question to which anyone with the slightest effort could find the answer.  It is idle rhetoric for which another must ask the motive for asking without first doing one’s own research.

“How and why there were so many millions of Jews concentrated in one geographical area in Germany proper and its vicinity?”  Such a rhetorical puzzlement!  One merely needs to put the question of transporting Jews to Death Camps to a google search and within seconds 43,200 results will be at one’s beckoned call. 

A cursory answer is that they were rounded up by armed German soldiers and transferred by freight trains, with no breaks for food or water and only one bucket per cattle truck for sanitation. The journey often took 3-4 days or longer. They were packed tightly. The winters were bitter cold and summers it was stifling hot. On arrival at the camp, some of the victims were already dead.

Sometimes corpses got left in the cattle trucks.  There are documents still in existence in which the German railways (Deutsche Reichsbahn) sent bills to the SS for having to arrange funerals for these!  But they never got paid and they never had funerals!

Part 1 - How so many Jews came to be concentrated in one geographical area in Germany proper and its vicinity http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005372
Deportations to Killing centers:
To rearrange the ethnic composition of eastern Europe within the framework of World War II, the Nazi regime used rail transport as one method to forcibly remove members of ethnic groups from the territory on which they lived. In 1941, the Nazi leadership decided to implement the “Final Solution,” the systematic mass murder of European Jewry. The German authorities used rail systems across the continent to transport, or deport, Jews from their homes, primarily to eastern Europe. Once they had begun to methodically kill Jews in specially constructed killing centers, German officials deported Jews by train and, when trains were not available or the distances were short, by truck or on foot to these facilities.

At the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942, held near Berlin, SS, Nazi Party, and German state officials met to coordinate the deportation of European Jews to killing centers (also known as “extermination camps”) already in operation or under construction in German-occupied Poland. The participants of the conference estimated that the “Final Solution” would involve the deportation and murder of 11 million Jews, including Jewish residents of nations outside German control, such as Ireland, Sweden, Turkey, and Great Britain.

There are maps available that show the major deportations to extermination camps, 1942-1944.  Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to present all this information.

Deportations on this scale required the coordination of numerous German government agencies including the Reich Security Main Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt—RSHA), the Main Office of the Order Police, the Ministry of Transportation, and the Foreign Office. The RSHA or regional SS and police leaders coordinated and often directed the deportations. The Order Police, often reinforced by local auxiliaries or collaborators in occupied territories, rounded up and transported the Jews to the killing centers. Working with department IV B 4 of the RSHA commanded by SS Lieutenant Colonel Adolf Eichmann, the Ministry of Transportation coordinated train schedules. The Foreign Office negotiated with Germany’s Axis partners over the transfer of their Jewish citizens to German custody.

The Germans attempted to disguise their intentions. They sought to portray the deportations as a “resettlement” of the Jewish population in labor camps in the “East.” In reality, the “resettlement” in the “East” became a euphemism for transport to the killing centers and mass murder.

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By Shenonymous, February 14, 2009 at 11:44 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 - How so many Jews came to be concentrated in one geographical area in Germany proper and its vicinity

German railroad officials used both freight and passenger cars for the deportations. German authorities generally did not give the deportees food or water for the journey, even when they had to wait for days on railroad spurs for other trains to pass. Packed in sealed freight cars and suffering from overcrowding, they endured intense heat during the summer and freezing temperatures during the winter. Aside from a bucket, there was no sanitary facility. The stench of urine and excrement added to the humiliation and suffering of the deportees. Lacking food and water, many of the deportees died before the trains reached their destinations. Armed police guards accompanied the transports; they had orders to shoot anyone who tried to escape.

Between December 1941 and July 1942, the SS and police officials established five killing centers in German-occupied Poland: Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka 2 (Treblinka 1 was a forced-labor camp for Jews), and Auschwitz-Birkenau, also known as Auschwitz II. SS and police authorities in the Lublin District of the Generalgouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia, or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) managed and coordinated the deportations to Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka within the framework of “Operation Reinhard.”

The principal victims at Belzec were Jews from southern and southeastern Poland, but also Jews deported from the so-called Greater German Reich (Germany, Austria, the Sudetenland, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia) to District Lublin between October 1941 and the end of summer 1942. Most Jews deported to Sobibor came from the Lublin District; but German authorities also transported French and Dutch Jews to Sobibor in spring and summer 1943 and small groups of Soviet Jews from Belorussian and Lithuanian ghettos in late summer 1943. German officials transported the Jews from the Warsaw and Radom districts of the Generalgouvernement and from the Bialystok administrative district to Treblinka 2, where SS and police officials murdered them. German authorities deported most of the Jewish residents of the Lodz ghetto as well as the ghetto’s surviving Roma and Sinti (Gypsy) residents to Chelmno between January 1942 and spring 1943, and then in early summer 1944.

In 1943 and 1944, the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center played a significant role in the German plan to kill the European Jews. Beginning in late winter 1943, trains arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau on a regular basis carrying Jews from virtually every German-occupied country of Europe—from as far north as Norway to the Greek island of Rhodes off the coast of Turkey in the south, from the French slopes of the Pyrenees in the west to the easternmost reaches of German-occupied Poland and the Baltic states. Another concentration camp, located near Lublin and known as Majdanek, served as a site for murdering targeted groups of Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners by gas and other means.

The Germans killed nearly three million Jews in the five killing centers.

WESTERN AND NORTHERN EUROPE
German officials and local collaborators deported Jews from western Europe via transit camps, such as Drancy in France, Westerbork in the Netherlands, and Mechelen (Malines) in Belgium. Of the approximately 75,000 Jews deported from France, more than 65,000 were deported from Drancy to Auschwitz-Birkenau, and approximately 2,000 to Sobibor. The Germans deported over 100,000 Jews from the Netherlands, almost all from Westerbork: about 60,000 to Auschwitz and over 34,000 to Sobibor. Between August 1942 and July 1944, 28 trains transported more than 25,000 Jews from Belgium to Auschwitz-Birkenau via Mechelen.

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