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Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People

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Posted on Feb 14, 2009
Sachsenhausen
AP photo / Sven Kaestner

Visitors to Oranienburg, Germany, pass the gate of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp last month. The words on the gate translate loosely as “Labor liberates.” 

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally published in The Independent.

The third and very final part of the “normality” of war. I have just finished reading Lyn Smith’s Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust. I admit to a personal interest. Lyn is a friend of mine for whom I have been recording my memories of Middle East wars for the Imperial War Museum. Nothing I have ever seen can equal this, however, and I can give only one example from the terrifying, outrageously brave and moving book this is.

It is the testimony of Leon Greenman, a British Jewish inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau who arrived at the extermination camp with his wife and child. It speaks for itself. All other passages pale beside it:

“We were bullied out of the train and stood about waiting. It must have been about half past two in the morning. It was dark, a blue light was shining on the platform. We saw a few SS men walking up and down. They separated the men from the women. So I stood right in front of the men and I could see my wife there with the child in her arms. She threw me a kiss and she showed the baby ... Then one of the prisoners in a striped uniform commanded us to follow him. Well, we turned to the left and walked a little way for two or three minutes. A truck arrived, stopped near us and on the truck were all the women, children, babies and in the centre my wife and child standing up. They stood up to the light as if it was meant to be like that – so that I could recognise them. A picture I’ll never forget. All these were supposed to have gone to the bathroom to have a bath, to eat and to live. Instead they had to undress and go into the gas chambers, and two hours later those people were ashes, including my wife and child.”

I recalled this searing passage this week when I received a letter from a reader, taking me to task for my “constant downplaying of the suffering of the Palestinians on the grounds that their deaths and suffering are minimal when compared with that of the Second World War”. Now, I should say at once that this is a bit unfair. I was especially taking exception to a Palestinian blog now going the rounds which shows a queue of Palestinian women at one of Israel’s outrageous roadblocks and a (slightly) cropped picture of the Auschwitz selection ramp, the same platform upon which Leon Greenman was separated from his young wife and child more than 60 years ago. The picture of the Palestinian women is based on a lie; they are not queuing to be exterminated. Racist, inhumane and sometimes deadly – Palestinian women have died at these infernal checkpoints – but they are not queuing to be murdered.

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Yet our reader does have a point. The Second World War, she says, “does put it in a category apart ... but surely if one is caught up in any war and sees one’s loved ones killed or maimed, one’s home destroyed ... then that must be the greatest cataclysm in one’s life. The fact that a hundred others, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million are suffering likewise is immaterial to the individual’s suffering. The Second World War lasted six years. The Palestinian suffering has lasted over sixty…”

And yes, I’ll go along with this. If it’s an individual being deliberately killed, then this is no less terrible than any other individual, albeit that this second person may be one of six million others. The point, of course, is the centrality of the Holocaust and – Israel’s constant refrain – its exclusivity. Actually, the Armenian Holocaust – as I’ve said on umpteen occasions – is also central to all genocide studies. The same system of death marches, of camps, of primitive asphyxiation, even a few young German officers in Turkey watching the genocide in 1915 and then using the same methods on Jews in the occupied Soviet Union. Numbers matter.

But our reader has another point. “After all,” she says, “in the Second World War, after the entry of the US and USSR on our side, people could feel pretty positive about the outcome. But where is such hope for the Palestinians? And now to cap the horror the BBC is refusing to even show an appeal to help Gaza…” I’m not at all sure that W Churchill Esq would have entirely placed such confidence in the outcome of the Second World War – he was initially worried that the Americans would use up their firepower on the Japanese rather than against Hitler’s Germany.

I think, however, there is yet one more point. The rules of war – the Geneva Conventions and all the other post-Second World War laws – were meant to prevent another Holocaust. They were specifically designed to ensure that no one should ever again face the destruction of Mrs Greenman and her child. They were surely not made only for one race of people. And it is these rules which Israel so disgracefully flouted in Gaza. It’s a bit like the refrain from Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara and a whole host of other apparatchiks when the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Well, yes, they told us, it was bad – but not as bad as Saddam Hussein’s regime.

And of course, this argument leads to perdition. True, we were bad – but not as bad as the Baath party. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or Hitler’s Germany and the SS. Or the Ottoman Turks – though I noticed movingly that one of Lyn’s Jewish Holocaust survivors mentions the Armenians. No, the numbers game works both ways. A thousand Palestinians die in Gaza. But what if the figure were 10,000? Or 100,000? No, no, of course that wouldn’t happen. But the rules of war are made for all to obey. Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths. But a Palestinian woman and her child are as worthy of life as a Jewish woman and her child on the back of a lorry in Auschwitz.


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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

The Hidden Truth

This Video includes Graphic Content Viewer discretion is advised.


“A montage of various [News Channels, Interviews, News Links and Audios] related to the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict where I try to Expose the lies about terror state Israel which has been always decorated by the western media to justify it’s Brutal, sadistic actions towards the Palestinian People.”

Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO7U7fvRZVk

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Israel has over 8000 prisoners incarcerated and by it’s own admission 1000 are there for administrative reasons.  They have never been charged. 360 of them are children.  Most of the 8000 are political prisoners who have resisted Israeli occupation and been “captured”.

One could describe them as hostages, and that they are the result of Israel’s far wider policy of kidnapping/capturing Palestinians.

In the end, this is simply a question of semantics. When Israel attacks, it is defending itself.  When The Palestinians attack, they are terrorists.  When Israeli’s are captured, they are kidnapped.  When Palestinians are captured, the are prisoners or terrorists.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, February 20, 2009 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Okay Leefeller, and OzarkMichael, I will save everyone the trouble of calling me names, I mean somebody’s heaven forbid!  I am a Non-Bigoted Atheist Fundamentalist Christian Zionist Ejumacated Ding Bat Former Valley Girl! NBAFCZEDBFVG f’short!  You are so welcome to call me that or add to it anytime you want.  I absolutely love it all.  We could have a contest as to who can call me the worst names.  Brush up on your name-calling for what you have come up with so far is rather asinine.  No prizes of course, but there is that maliciouso bile that you can choke on that exudes from the hatred Leefeller so cleverly noticed with which you are all afflicted.  It seems to be the same kind of swirling swill that might be affecting your vision and brainwaves too.  And you are about to give yourself apoplexy.  Quick, stand up and run around your computer table four times.  Bow to the Middle East five times, then sit back down and take a deep breath.  Oh my goodness.  do you need a brown bag?

Now would someone please tell me who Robber and Bruisertripe are?  We really don’t want to get into a name-calling contest do we?  Shall we stay on topic? And do please try to at least sound intelligent.

Source: http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1015
PLO, HAMAS, and Hezbollah:  History of taking hostages and exchange of prisoners with Israel (1968-2006)
Part 1
Capture of hostages and exchange of prisoners between the end of the 1960s and the beginning of the 1970s is an integral part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Number of deals concluded in this connection between the conflicting parties had a perceptible influence on the situation in the whole region. The problem was also used by some western countries and Iran with an aim to increase the growth of their own influence in the zone of the Middle East conflict.  The complete history of taking hostages and exchange of prisoners with the participation of Israel, different groupings of the PLO, HAMAS, and the Lebanese Shia organization Hezbollah is here offered.  You may read it or not, your choice.

Since the 1970s the deals on exchange of prisoners and hostages has been an integral part of the Middle East conflict. Basic participants of the interaction until now were Israel, on the one hand, and the Palestinian and Shia military-political organizations, on the other.  In some cases, a third group of countries were concerned with such deals; they represented themselves as intermediaries or minor participants of the exchange. All deals were concluded as a result of negotiating process that continued in most cases from one year up to several years.

As a rule the subject of negotiations is:
- Release of the Palestinian or Shia organizations’ members sentenced by Israel on charges of terrorism or espionage, and also taken prisoner during the warfare in the territory of Lebanon (1978-2000).
- Release of the Israeli militaries and civilians captured by the
Palestinian or Shia organizations in Lebanon, on the Israeli frontier or abroad.
- Exchange of bodies of the lost Israeli servicemen, members of the Arab military-political organizations, and civilians.
- Exchange of data on persons missing or their personal belongings.

By the capture of Israeli civilians and militaries, and also during negotiations on their exchange, the Palestinian and Shia organizations usually pursued also political ends, mainly:
- To draw the attention of the international community to the Palestinian cause that was characteristic for the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) groupings’ actions of capture of hostages at the end of the 1960s and within the 1970s.
- To raise its own authority among the anti-Israeli Arab organizations and in the Middle East politics as a whole. The deal concluded between Israel and the Popular front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) in 1985 and the Shia organization Hezbollah in 2004 serves as a vivid example of this.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, February 20, 2009 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment

Part 2
History of the issue of taking Israeli hostages by terrorist groups in the Middle East (1968-2004)
Practice of deals on exchange of the captives became the result of a new form of the Israeli-Arab conflict - capture of the Israeli citizens as hostages. The beginning was set within the frame of general activation of the Palestinian national movement following the occupation by Israel of the West Bank of the Jordan River and Gaza Strip in 1967. For the first time those were the PLO left-wing radical groupings that began to apply this technique. Within more than two next decades they were in the lead by quantity of attempts of seizure of Israeli citizens.

Beginning of hostages’ capture
First action of this kind was carried out by members of the Popular front for the Liberation of Palestine lead by Georges Habash. In July, 1968 they seized an Israeli plane following from Italy to Israel, and forced the crew to make landing in Algeria. In exchange on release of the hostages, the hijackers demanded to let out 1,200 Palestinian prisoners from the Israeli prisons. Algerian authorities achieved release of all passengers of the hijacked plane by negotiations.

In parallel, Israel released 16 Palestinian prisoners as an act of good will. Thus the Israeli government, though in a limited format, agreed on the prisoners for hostages principle. Moreover, events of July, 1968 raised an extremely broad echo, for the first time drawing attention of the international community to the Palestinian cause. As a consequence, other Palestinian groupings followed the PFLP’s example and at the end of the 1960s - the beginning of the 1970s a wave of air terrorism followed across Europe and the Middle East.

TBC

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, February 20, 2009 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

As The Bile Flows

My hypocrisy may be showing when I call one poster on his inane blitz’s of nefarious tripe, or should I say articles of selected choosing, cherry hand picked with precise care devoid of objectivity so important in the promotion of open discussion. 

This article about the Holocaust has been trivialized, by the compassionless, those who suggest nothing but hate and bile, promoting a seething puss filled sore nothing else.


It seems the same people would not know an olive branch if it was shoved up their ass.  Blind as hate is, some posters here are seething with it, from the tips of their toes to tops of their heads, which seem to be were the olive branches should be for all the good they will do.

Anyone who does not see eye to eye and accept their opinions as the correct opinions, are called zionest, this is the way it is.

This suggest, Peace is not an option. Embracing blind hate is not in the cards for some of us, the constant replenishing of it, as you seem to do, provides nothing but more hate.

As for the name calling, it offers little except how small some minds can be.  For it is the ignorance of hate that props your simple egos,  enjoy the hate bathe in it, I know you will not disappoint me.

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By cyrena, February 20, 2009 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, February 20 at 1:46 pm

•  “The post of Rober and bruerstoupe on Zionism have restored my respect for scholarship. One can tell how effective it is by viewing all the attacks on Robert by the Zionists.”
Hot Damn Folkt,

You have just made my day!! (I know you probably didn’t intend to, but you did!) smile


You just can’t imagine how tickled I am that your respect for scholarship has been restored, and that you have credited two such excellent scholars for it. (Robert and Brewerstroupe) Now because I’m just so very excited about this, I want to extend an open invitation to you to check out some of the really excellent lectures and other academic presentations at our nearby institutions of higher learning.

I know you’re in the Southern California area, and we really do have a bunch of exciting stuff happening at a number of our campuses within the UC system. (I suspect that Santa Barbara, and Los Angeles are probably relatively convenient for you….I use public transportation to get between UCSB, UCLA, and occasionally UCSC, and it works well.)

Last night we had an excellent debate on Torture Law, (one of my sub-interests; I know it’s weird, but so is the idea that humans so cheerfully torture other ones – I needed to find out how and why they do). Anyway, the debate was excellent, as these events almost always are, because they are so informative. They are nearly always free of charge, unless it’s some film or something that they’ve needed to pay for. But these events are always open to the public, and there is generally not a fee or charge involved.

So, let us know.

And, thanks again for making my day. wink

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 20, 2009 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

Four other articles exposing Israel and US crimes against humanity! This is intended to counter the bigots and evil propagandists on TD threads!
===================================
Apartheid Israel Gaza Massacre
By Gideon Polya

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya170209.htm

The horrendous mortality and morbidity statistics revealed by the paper “The Wounds of Gaza”, just published in the prestigious medical journal The Lancet are truly shocking – 1,350 killed (60% children) and 5,450 severely wounded (40% children) in reprisals for zero (0) Israeli deaths from Gaza rockets in the preceding year. This demands International Criminal Court and intra-national prosecutions and Sanctions and Boycotts against Apartheid Israel by all decent decent people around the world…

Choose Life!
By Deb Reich

http://www.countercurrents.org/reich170209.htm

After this futile, criminal, pornographic war in Gaza (Shmuel Amir rightly termed it a “hunt” rather than a war) and yet another national election in Israel ending basically in impasse, but this time with a distinctly fascist motif, we are no closer to sustainable peace in the Middle East. We need a drastic revisioning of what we are doing here…

 

Livni’s Bitter Options
By Uri Avnery

http://www.countercurrents.org/avnery170209.htm

Now Ms Tantalus must choose between two bitter options: to retire to the desert where there is neither water nor fruit, or to serve as a fig-leaf for an obnoxious coalition…

 

Two US Missile Strikes In Pakistan
In Three Days Kill More Than 60
By Barry Grey

http://www.countercurrents.org/grey170209.htm

The United States on Monday carried out its second missile strike in three days inside Pakistan. More than 30 people were reported killed after four CIA Predator drone aircraft launched at least four Hellfire missiles at a purported Taliban training camp in Pakistan’s northwest tribal area of Kurram. It was the first US strike in Kurram, one of seven semi-autonomous tribal areas in Pakistan on the border with Afghanistan. Monday’s attack followed a missile strike on Saturday on a building in the South Waziristan tribal district that killed at least 30 people…

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By Folktruther, February 20, 2009 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

Not at all, Ozark, Shenynomous is a political dingbat.  Like you.  Only she is Educated and Informed.  Since she is Educated and Informed by the American mainstream truth, she has imbibed the anti-Muslim bigotry of Zionism, just as you have. 

The post of Rober and bruerstoupe on Zionism have restored my respect for scholarship. One can tell how effective it is by viewing all the attacks on Robert by the Zionists.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 20, 2009 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

Hmm.

...

Shingo, i chastised you twice for something that you only did once. My problem isnt that i refuse to read posts, its that i dont read them closely enough.

mea culpa! You are hereby entitled to make a witty remark in my direction and as my penalty, I will have to write that I agree with you. So make it good.

This was actually the comment of Shingo’s about Shenonymous that i wanted to work on:

With all due I do not believe that you have no emotional attachment to Israel and the irrationality of your argument only confirms my suspicions.

Some have guessed that the atheist Shenonymous is Jewish, because that would explain her attachment to Israel. But that isnt true. She is not Jewish.

So if she is not Jewish there is only one possible explanation left to explain her attachment to Israel. get ready for this shocker!

The only reasonable explanation is that the
atheist Shenonymous
is…
a…
Fundamentalist Christian!


Come on Shen, ‘fess up.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 20, 2009 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

here is Shingo again, this time speaking to trithoverlies: I won’t be wasting my time responding to the tripe you are posting to this blog, let alone sift through the garbage you are tying to write.

This is a bad habit that you may have picked up from Le Femme Fadel, who has written those sort of words several times in other places. It expresses a subconcious wish for censorship.

Let us not imitate le Femme. Here is a better approach, Shingo, which i have written as somethig of a pledge we can both take:

When a person writes as a human being,
explaining and learning as they go,
not merely regurgitating what someone else says,
but expressing their own thoughts,
even if they do so in a way that is not pleasing to me,
even if i disagree with them,
even if i dont understand them,
even if i dont like them,
They are still writing as human beings,
and i will not wish for their voice to be silenced.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 20, 2009 at 12:09 pm Link to this comment

Per Shingo: I won’t be wasting my time responding to the tripe you are posting to this blog, let alone sift through the garbage you are tying to write.

Speaking for myself now, i have to admit that i disagree with shenonymous quite often, but she is the best one to investigate what people throw at her, and then she tries to answer. Having been on the recieving end of her answers, I have to say that nobody on truthdig is more thoughtful(and therefor more fun and dangerous to argue with) than Shenonymous.

So i felt sorry for you, Shingo, if you wont read her posts.

But it looks like lately you re-entered a discussion with Shenonymous. Good for you. Stay with the argument, Shenonymous is worth it. Even if you disagree with her you will learn.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 20, 2009 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

Le Femme Fadel said this: Unless he and his fellow leaders of Israel are prepared, without further delay, to commit to a complete withdrawal to the June 4, 1967 armistice line, in a serious effort at peace, Israel will continue to lose American and International support and One State is the likely future for Palestine.

There are a few things missing from Fadel’s either/or outcomes for ‘Palestine’.

I would like to take Fadel’s rather poor effort apart. Yet, I hesitate. If i show how incomplete and illogical it is, that might cause Fadel to lift his skirts and make a hysterical exit, like he did last time.

To avoid repeating that scene, i offer Fadel an opportunity to re-evaluate what he wrote and correct it himself. All it would require is a little objectivity and logic from Fadel. Qualities which, depending on the time of month, he might be a little short of.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 20, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment

Shingo, February 20 at 6:08 am #

Trithoverlies,

Look, I’m sure you’re a nice simple person who never had a decent education and is trying to better themselves, but your arguments convey an overwhelming ignorance and lack of understanding of any reality.

I won’t be wasting my time responding to the tripe you are posting to this blog, let alone sift through the garbage you are tying to write.

Good luck.
**************************************************

IMHO this is an inappropriate response and you should apologize to Truthoverlies.  He’s entitled to his opinions and to express them. There have been many posters who are far less intelligible than Mr. Bloxson and really mangle the English language.

Remember ******, who had 50-100 line posts—all one sentence?  Or ***** who writes EVERYTHING IN CAPS????
Or ****** who translates everything into Native American mysticism?

As for not knowing what he’s talking about—the PARTICULAR post was about how many political prisoners Israel HAS released, but has had little effect—a sound point.

Truthoverlies has also worked hard to stay focused on the issue at hand—and I thank him.

You have the right to ignore anyone you want.

In fact, if you’d like to ignore me, please: Go Ahead!

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By Inherit The Wind, February 20, 2009 at 11:42 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, February 20 at 9:15 am #

Robert,

My prejudice is showing here, when posters, all posters,  even ones I may have some disagreement with actually post opinions and commentary, I suspect they have spent some time composing their comments. This is supposedly called dialogue, an ability to communicate and maybe even instill some stimulating thought,  on the other hand your constant filibuster (may be redundant)  of one sided cut and pasties, aside from the fact it usually has nothing to do with the article is the disruption.

One could counter and raise your twenty posted cut and pasties,  according to your, own posted stuff from the mass media.  Though, I believe it would be a definite wast of everyones time.

Maybe this has never occurred to you, but you could assimilate your thoughts into commentary or opinion and provide the link?

Robert, I suggest the disruption is yours not mine, you may also want to enhance your insult repertoire.  “Don Rickels” book “How to insult everyone and getting them to like it”  would be a good starting point for for you.
*************************************************

Not me!  I NEVER bother reading R’s cut-and-pastes anymore, nor his web-site references. I consider them a waste of time.

Here’s a typical example of a response to a criticism:
“Thanks for the detractor post… your vision is blurred from that large brown load on your nose and between the eyes.”

Dialogue or Monologue?

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, February 20, 2009 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

Robert,

My prejudice is showing here, when posters, all posters,  even ones I may have some disagreement with actually post opinions and commentary, I suspect they have spent some time composing their comments. This is supposedly called dialogue, an ability to communicate and maybe even instill some stimulating thought,  on the other hand your constant filibuster (may be redundant)  of one sided cut and pasties, aside from the fact it usually has nothing to do with the article is the disruption. 

One could counter and raise your twenty posted cut and pasties,  according to your, own posted stuff from the mass media.  Though, I believe it would be a definite wast of everyones time. 

Maybe this has never occurred to you, but you could assimilate your thoughts into commentary or opinion and provide the link?

Robert, I suggest the disruption is yours not mine, you may also want to enhance your insult repertoire.  “Don Rickels” book “How to insult everyone and getting them to like it”  would be a good starting point for for you.

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By Sepharad, February 20, 2009 at 10:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert - Read the piece on Kovel at Bard with interest and suspect there’s more to it than meets the eye. I don’t think anyone should be fired for any type of disagreement, especially not at a university where people are supposed to be learning critical thinking and should already have a firm grip on free speech.

But Bard recently did something that might rub some people the wrong ray, and it’s the opposite of what most people on this thread associate with Zionism (but in fact is my kind of Zionism because it is the only way there will ever be two independent states.)

As you may or maybe don’t know, Al Quds University in the West Bank is the only all-Palestinian university and has been a center for militant activity. Giving that militant activity as a reason, the State of Israel has long refused to accredit degrees from Al Quds, which means that Al Quds students cannot use their degrees to qualify for jobs in Israel. In the past, several American universities have set up joint programs with Al Quds, Brandeis I think was the first, but still no accreditation was granted by Israel. This has always seemed wrong to many of us, in and out of the Zionist category. (To me, refusing to grant accreditation on the grounds that a university is a center for militants not only hinders Palestinians from getting better educations but actually is exactly the kind of behavior that turns people into militants in the first place.)

Just this month, however, Leon Botstein, president of Bard College, achieved a goal he’d been working toward for some time along with Samir Nusseibieh, President of Al Quds, despite opposition from some of Bard’s faculty and board members, and set up a joint DEGREE as well as studies program with Al Quds in medical, technological and humanities fields. Because Bard is an American college, Israel has agreed to recognize the Al Quds-Bard degrees in all those areas, meaning that Al Quds students can get degrees that will be honored, enabling them to pursue further study or find jobs in Israel, America, and anywhere else they like. President Nusseibieh said this would enable Al Quds students to discover the outside world, adding that many of them have never been more than 40 miles away from Jerusalem.

Could this have been the “Zionist” issue Kovel disagreed with?

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 9:37 am Link to this comment

mjt01 ... just a follow up to your last post.

===============

How American News Media Works In Favor Of Israel

Video

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21744.htm

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

By Leefeller, February 20 at 8:01 am #

Robert,

Your ability to cut and paste is unprecedented, keep up the good work, you are catching up to the lopsided New York Times.
+++++++++++++

Thanks for the detractor post… your vision is blurred from that large brown load on your nose and between the eyes.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, February 20, 2009 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

Robert,

Your ability to cut and paste is unprecedented, keep up the good work, you are catching up to the lopsided New York Times.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

When conspiracies are not imagined

STATEMENT OF JOEL KOVEL REGARDING HIS TERMINATION BY BARD COLLEGE

2009 | joelkovel.org

_Introduction_

“In January, 1988, I was appointed to the Alger Hiss Chair of Social Studies at Bard College. As this was a Presidential appointment outside the tenure system, I have served under a series of contracts. The last of these was half-time (one semester on, one off, with half salary and full benefits year-round), effective from July 1, 2004, to June 30, 2009. On February 7 I received a letter from Michèle Dominy, Dean of the College, informing me that my contract would not be renewed this July 1 and that I would be moved to emeritus status as of that day. She wrote that this decision was made by President Botstein, Executive Vice-President Papadimitriou and herself, in consultation with members of the Faculty Senate.

This document argues that this termination of service is prejudicial and motivated neither by intellectual nor pedagogic considerations, but by political values, principally stemming from differences between myself and the Bard administration on the issue of Zionism. There is of course much more to my years at Bard than this, including another controversial subject, my work on ecosocialism (/The Enemy of Nature/). However, the evidence shows a pattern of conflict over Zionism only too reminiscent of innumerable instances in this country in which critics of Israel have been made to pay, often with their careers, for speaking out. In this instance the process culminated in a deeply flawed evaluation process which was used to justify my termination from the faculty.”

*******************

NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR JOE KOVEL AT BARD COLLEGE OVER THE SUBJECT OF ZIONISM.

Click on link for the rest of Joe Kovel’s saga:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2710

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Political Prisoners in Israel/Palestine

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
 

“Since the beginning of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories in 1967, over 650,000 Palestinians have been detained by Israel. This forms approximately 20% of the total Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).”


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/prisoners.html

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By Leefeller, February 20, 2009 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

Mindless madness requires disillusioned understanding.  It is my belief I live in a country which endeavor’s to manipulate it’s people with half truths, even blatant lies.  Many years ago I was forced to go to war, a war far from my countries shores, a war for reasons which never made sense to me.  During my duty in this war, I lived in a strange world,  a limbo land, always in fear of not knowing if I would survive another day, hour or minute. Not a huddling and cringing kind of fear, but a constant nagging one.  Day to day I existed, with a constant feelings that someone did not like me and actually wanted to kill me.  Every evening fireworks and the reassuring smell of suffer were reminders .  A most uncomfortable feeling.

I cannot speak for others, I saw myself as one in survival mode, a desire to live. It was demanded of me the option to kill, not really an option, instead a requirement. For they the enemy would do the same to me.  I believed my life was more valuable then those in my rifle sights. It was quite simple, to survive I would have to kill, even then survival was not guaranteed.  So this was the enemy!

Today I have a respect and acceptance of this country and it’s people, my former alleged enemies..  Something missing was, I never had felt a festering hate of the enemy.  It is not clear to me why I did not hate my enemy or the people of the enemy, circumstances as they were, my enemies were not my neighbors, nor did they impose a threat toward my family and loved ones as I saw it, Instead it was I who imposed on them? 
                               
One sees here, reason has been trumped by hate, a hate so very deep it festers with such unrestraint, the unrelenting constant tit for tat, will it never cease? Five tats for two tits, make it twenty tats.  Since the dawn of time the same mental madness has been, such is the disillusionment and madness of war.

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By Robert, February 20, 2009 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

By mjt01, February 20 at 5:46 am #

“American media is far more weighted to telling the Israeli side of things that the somewhat leftist Haaretz, or even the right wing Jerusalem Post. Both of these Israeli papers have an English language version available on the Net. It is only natural to expect that these papers are proIsrael, but they are more honest, and are far more balanced than any other main stream paper in the US that I have seen.

The NY Times has admitted in print that it expends 10-20 times the coverage on atrocities committed against the Israelis than it does on atrocities committed against the Palestinians. And that there are some 10 times as many fatal atrocities against Palestinians than against Israelis. Which means the Palestinian fatal atrocity news is getting short shrift of about 100:1. Yet, even after NY Times reporters dug up this information and published it, the NY Times continues its pro-Israeli stance.”
***********************

mjt01,

An excellent post indeed. Many Americans have layers of “scales” on their eyes when it comes to the subject of Israel/Zionism.

The MSM News Corporations main aim is to keep the American public in the dark when it comes to Israel’s criminal and other flagrant actions. AIPAC & Israel have controlled the US administration/policy for many years and especially in the last 8 years. AIPAC & Israel’s demands are… give us all the $$$ 3-5 Billion dollars in US taxpayer’s aide per year, but stay the hell out of our affairs.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Look, I’m sure you’re a nice simple person who never had a decent education and is trying to better themselves, but your arguments convey an overwhelming ignorance and lack of understanding of any reality.

I won’t be wasting my time responding to the tripe you are posting to this blog, let alone sift through the garbage you are tying to write.

Good luck.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

With all due I do not believe that you have no emotional attachment to Israel and the irrationality of your argument only confirms my suspicions.

First, your insistence on labelling those opposed to the Israel’s policies and behavior as being the pro-terrorist Hamas contingent smacks of chldish indignation.  Apparently you are educated ad intelligent, therefore you are intelligent to know that the designation of terrorist is arbitrary and meaningless.

Secondly, you seem oblivious to the fact that the so called “imbalance” in views of reality and morality is directly and inextricably linked to the sales of the crimes perpetrated.  The kill rate of Israelis to Palestinians is around 350:1, yet you insist on creating an imaginary scenario where the two sides are equal partners/adversaries.

OK, so let’s address the “inhumane” treatment of A kidnapped Israeli. It’s bad. It is reprehensible and should be condemned.  Fine. Done.

But that’s not really your point is it Shenonymous?  Because in your original post, the argument you tried to make was that the kidnapping ONE Israeli soldier, Hamas provided and example of their lack of humanity.

Why then do you take umbrage to the same moral metric being applied to Israel?  Is that not logical?  Don’t hide behind some faux pretense and mock outrage that 2 wrongs don’t make a right.  Israel has not only carried out a policy of kidappings for decades, but it openly boasts of it’s right to do so, along with extra judicial killings and assassinations.

So let’s take that one kidnapping, which I remind you, did not happen out the blue, but was a reprisal for Israel’s kidnapping of 2 (yes that’s 2 not one) Palestinians civilians from Gaza City the day before. Those two brothers have not been seen or heard from since.  What does it say about Israel?

Don’t you see how absurd your argument is?  Here you are lamenting that Shalit may have been forgotten by the public, yet not only do you not know the names of the 2 Palestinain brothers that were kidnapped the day before, you didn’t even know it had taken place.

As far as I can see, you exhibit all the trade mark characteristics of another Zionist shill posing as an impartial observer.

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By mjt01, February 20, 2009 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You speak of a pro-Hamas group here. Would you care to name the writers who you see as pro-Hamas. The only dog I have in this fight is an end to the fighting and the atrocities.

People’s opinions sometimes depend on where they were born, or how they are brought up. But in this particular issue, for those living here in the US, the majority of positions come from a a press that inaccurately portrays the situation in the Middle East in general, and Palestine in particular. This weighting towards the Israeli side is so severe that Americans have an incredibly distorted view of what is happening.

American media is far more weighted to telling the Israeli side of things that the somewhat leftist Haaretz, or even the right wing Jerusalem Post. Both of these Israeli papers have an English language version available on the Net. It is only natural to expect that these papers are proIsrael, but they are more honest, and are far more balanced than any other main stream paper in the US that I have seen.

The NY Times has admitted in print that it expends 10-20 times the coverage on atrocities committed against the Israelis than it does on atrocities committed against the Palestinians. And that there are some 10 times as many fatal atrocities against Palestinians than against Israelis. Which means the Palestinian fatal atrocity news is getting short shrift of about 100:1. Yet, even after NY Times reporters dug up this information and published it, the NY Times continues its pro-Israeli stance.

Unless we have reason to investigate and dig more deeply, we know only what we see. The techniques of Madison Ave work. Seeing news coverage at 100:1 of reality distorts our views. It was only by reading Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, the Guardian UK, and other similar sources that I began to question the pro-Israeli views that I had since childhood. Most of these sources are hardly pro-Hamas, but they tell a very different picture than does US media. My personal emotional biases are still pro-Israel, but I hate what Israel is doing, and what it is becoming. If one only reads US media, one knows nothing of the struggle there.

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By Shenonymous, February 20, 2009 at 6:15 am Link to this comment

I am not upset in the least, Shingo.  I have no emotional attachment to either Israel or Palestinians. Don’t you know I am The Cold One.  At least that is what your colleagues call me.  What I see is an imbalance in a view of reality and morality by the pro-terrorist Hamas contingent on this forum.  It is you who are making the straw man argument and still haven’t addressed Hamas’ inhumane treatment of kidnapped Israelis.  Blather away all you want and rail against me all you want, pile up thousands of infractions by the Israelis all you want, you have not answered the charge of inhumane behavior of Hamas.  You don’t justify brute action of one group by condemning another.

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By Trithoverlies, February 20, 2009 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

And how many Palestinian Terrorist have been released in the last 2 1/2 years more than 1000 so get off it the Israelis have tried to get their soldier back by bending over backwards. But he is still a prisoner you can try to make what was done sound right and just on both sides in this but Hamas is nothing but a terrorist organization amd when two of its members are arrested plotting to bomb shools and buses what are the Israeli’s supose to do let them bomb schools and buses? NO so stop trying to justify what is unjustifiable these brother were not just average joe’s but terrorist with one mind set kill Jews whether they be children or Adults dos not matter.  Has Israel destroyed homes in the past yes the homes of suicide bombers what are the Israelis supose to do reward the families of suicide bombers No so plant your feet on the ground and stop pushing to blame the wrong people for the troubles in Gaza they brought all the suffering down on themselves when they overwhelmingly voted for the terorist you people seem to forget that key point along with the fact that those terrorist assasinated members of the fatah party some three years ago and killed their family members. Did Israel forcably remove settlers from the Gaza strip 3years ago yes they did and what was the payback
for doing so Terrorist steping in to become the
government of Gaza.  You continually amaze me with the attempts to OK what Hamas has done since its inception with the few times Israel has acted to stop terrorist plots but it’s is alright for hamas to fire rockets and mortors into school compound inside Israel, and kill soldiers on guard duty at the border crossings its alright for Terrorist to bomb school buses killing 48 children under the age of 13.  Its alright if 17 children at a Pizza party are murdered by Hamas so please continue to give terrorist passes and by all means continue to support those terrorist with your deeds money and mouths.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
          John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shingo, February 20, 2009 at 5:05 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Your hypocrisy and selective reasoning is truly mind boggling.

The kidnapping of Shalit was addressed.  The day before Shalit was captured, 2 Palestinains brothers were kidnapped by Israeli soldiers in Gaza city. The capture of Shalit was a reprisal for what Israel did the day before, but as is typical of Israeli apologists, in your mind history always starts when someone in Israel is hurt.

Then you site some assinine article that makes the ludicrous claim that the world has forgotten about Shalit, when his name has become a household word among anyone with a knowledge of the conflict.

The argument you are trying to make is that the capture of Shalit is symtomatic of Hamas’ humanistic character.  It was you that framed the issue in terms of a yardstick, so naturally, cyrena and I pointed out to you is that this behavior is not only second nature to Israel, but that Israel perpetrated it on a far greater scale.

What you are trying to do is like focus on the crimes of the French resistance, by asking us to ignore what Germany were doing at the time.

So what doe that tell us about the humanistic nature of Israel, given the extremes they’ve taken kinpapping too?

Now here you are, bleating like some spoiled child who can’t have it all their way.

How can you logically refer to a crime as an idictment of one side of a conflict, when the other side is even more culpable? Your’re not arguing that Israel does not perpetrate inhumane acts, you’re arguing that it doesn’t matter what Israel does. 

Even more revealing is your juvenile assertion that Hamas are terrorists, because of the violence they have committed.  If we are to follow your logic to it’s conclusion, does this not make Israel, who has committed much more violence, a terrorist state also?

Yes it is ridiculous, though not in the way you seem to believe it is.

So it seems you are upset because we will not accept your distorted premise, and your insufferable hypocrisy. You want us to ingore Isrel’s crimes and focus on those commited by Hamas, because it doesn’t agree with your sensibilities.

It’s clear that you are the one who has lost their mind.

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By Shenonymous, February 20, 2009 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

Freedom of Speech – Once again instead of addressing the issue of Hamas’ kidnapping of Corporal Shalit, all kinds of pointing finger about Israel’s culpability in the conflict is your defense.  I am not measuring which side performs the worse acts.  No one is arguing that Israel does not perpetrate inhumane acts.  You pro-Hamas contingent do not want to admit that the terrorist-Hamas commits any inhuman behavior.  It is ridiculous.  Are you all out of your minds?  A collective madness continues.  It is a matter of perspective and it is obvious you are incapable to argue properly but continue to act like messy-minded adolescents.

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By cyrena, February 19, 2009 at 11:50 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, I hate to say this, but the title is misleading, at least in terms of him being ‘forgotten’. NO ONE has ‘forgotten’ about him.
“Corporal Gilad Shalit, then 19-years-old, was kidnapped on June 25, 2006, by Hamas terrorists who infiltrated Israel from the Gaza Strip. Since the day of his abduction, Shalit has been hidden, his whereabouts unknown, and all of Israel’s attempts to negotiate his release with Hamas have been frustrated by the group’s demands for the release of hundreds of convicted Palestinian criminals and refusal to negotiate.”
But, did you hear about these? I doubt even you would have forgotten about them had you ever been aware of them to begin with. These are among the so-called ‘convicted Palestinians CRIMINALS’ that you describe above, despite their being children. There are other equally ‘dangerous’ criminals among them –next age group- who are probably there for life for throwing a stone at an IDF tank.
Report: “360 Palestinian children are imprisoned by Israel, facing harsh conditions”

“The Wa’ed Society for political prisoners and ex-prisoner, reported on Monday that the Israeli army continued its violations against the Palestinian people, continued the arrest campaign, and that currently there are 360 Palestinian children still imprisoned in several Israeli prisons and detention facilities.
________________________________________
IMEMC
Tuesday October 30, 2007

“The Society slammed the illegal Israeli military practices against the Palestinian people and added that Palestinian children are repeatedly targeted by the army in the occupied territories.

The Society also stated that the army kidnapped nearly 7000 Palestinians since the beginning of the Al Aqsa Intifada in September 28, 2000.

The number of Palestinian children currently imprisoned by Israel is 360, the society said, and added that the imprisoned children are facing harsh conditions, mistreatment and repeated attacks.

Half of the detained children were sentenced by military courts while the other half is still detained, awaiting trial or under interrogation.

The Society stated that the Israeli prison authorities are barring child detainees from their visitations rights, in addition to not providing them with decent meals and are placing them with adult Israeli prisoners who are detained for criminal conducts.

The children are also not allowed to meet with their lawyers on regular basis, repeatedly confined to solitary and subjecting to insults by the soldiers.
The Society voiced an appealed to human rights groups to expose the illegal Israeli practices against the detainees, especially the children, and demanded legal organizations, local and international human right institutions to act against these practices and to ensure that the detainees receive their rights in accordance to the international law and the basic principle of human rights.”

Be sure to check out the photo at the link
http://www.imemc.org/article/51165

As an aside, I’ve done some moderate amount of work with these human rights groups mentioned here, and have witnessed (albeit second hand via the attorneys who WERE allowed in; as well as their experiences with the Israeli Military Court System as it applies in Gaza and the West Bank) the treatment of these prisoners (including the children and the very young adults).

In fact, we’ve been following it for a long time now, as Israel simply locks up more and more and more of the civilian population. The frustration at the whole injustice of the thing is enough to drive one over the edge, even when the abuse isn’t targeted specifically at ‘me’.

However, the work of human rights groups over the past several years HAS managed to expose this more and more, and we’ll just keep working at it, since these on-going crimes against humanity mean the rest of us can’t be long for the world either.

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By Shingo, February 19, 2009 at 11:05 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

>> Israel’s Forgotten Hostage (The Case of Gilad Shalit)

You must seriously be out of your mind.  Forgotten by whom?  All we ever hear about is the outrage over the capture of Gilad Shalit, as though capturing of a soldier by Hamas is the mother of all crimes.

Did you know that the day before Shalit was captured, IDF solders invaded Gaza and captured 2 Palestinian brothers who have never been heard from since?  it wasn’t experted widely in the media and even if it were,  people like you wouldn’t really care, because we all knwo Arab blood is cheap.

While global media, the United Nations and political organizations around the world express outrage over the plight of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, no attention has been given to the inhumane treatment of a young Israeli held captive by the rulers of Gaza for more than 900 days.

So let me ask you Shenonymous.  if the capture of one Israeli soldiers is a description of the humanistic character of Hamas, what does the capture of hundreds of Palestinians by Israel (not to mention the assassinations and well documented torture chambers) tell us about the humanistic character of Israel?

Your double standards and hypocrisy boggles the mind.

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By Robert, February 19, 2009 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment

Prominent Canadians speak out against the war on Gaza - Judith Weisman - Jan 08 2009

“Judith Weisman is a Toronto psychotherapist, a member of Independent Jewish Voices, and a founding member of Not In Our Name, Jews for a Just Peace and the Jewish Women’s Committee to End the Occupation (of Palestine)”

VIDEO

*******************

Thank you Judith Weisman for your genuine humanity and your true courage to speak out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx1eRkBgzcA

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By Sepharad, February 19, 2009 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Leefeller and Shenonymous, you might also be interested in the book I mentioned to Inherit in my most recent post here.

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By Sepharad, February 19, 2009 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit—just stumbled on this thread following a “dupe” cyrena posted of it on another thread for some reason that escapes me. Anyway, read your 2/16 post re fact that Jordan wasn’t in on the initial attack in that war. That’s true, and Jordan would not have entered it at all except for a phone call to King Hussein from Nasser, telling him (falsely) that they had the Jews on the run, were at the gates of Tel Aviv etc. and Jordan might as well get in on the fun. Jordan did, met stiff Israeli resistance where they expected none, and Hussein was extremely angry, steaming in fact. (Actually I wish he hadn’t gotten involved almost as much as he probably did, because then the West Bank would still be occupied by Jordan, and what’s happening now would be moot. Egypt sure knew what it was doing, refusing to take back the Gaza strip along with the Sinai following the peace treaty with Israel.)

The hate being vented on this subject is really something to behold. A non-Jewish high school friend whose daughter married a Norwegian and lives there told me about a book of essays edited by Manfred Gerstenfeld called “Behind the Humanitarian Mask: The Nordic Countries, Israel and the Jews” and suggested I read it. Googled and found it available to read in English on the Net at Honest Reporting 2/19. The Foreword is written by Professor Gert Weisskirchen, who is a representative of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and chairman of the Office on Combating AntiSemitism. He says they’ve found it necessary to focus on AntiSemitism as distinct from their offices on Combating Racism, Discrimination and Xenophobia and on Combating Discrimination Against Muslims because AntiSemitism is a distinct phenomenon and increasing. Says it’s easy to detect among right wing extremist groups but “is more subtle in, for example, some elements of academic discourse on the Middle Eastern conflict in whicha clear pro-Palestinian bias is easily observable and AntiSemitic stereotypes are subtly and on first look often indiscernably invoked. AntiSemitism is prevalent through the whole political spectrum ... even among liberal democratic politicians and mainstream press.” He goes on at some length, re linkage of Israel and AntiSemitism, rejecting characterization of Israel as a Nazi state, then says the merit of the book is to “spotlight this underreported phenomenon too close to our consensual political discourse to be ignored or trivialized.” 

Not exactly delightful news, but at least it puts some of what’s happening on truthdig in context. And I’m glad SOMEONE else has noticed.

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By Shenonymous, February 19, 2009 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment

A description of the humanistic character of Hamas?
Israel’s Forgotten Hostage (The Case of Gilad Shalit)
Mitchell Bard - January 27th, 2009
While global media, the United Nations and political organizations around the world express outrage over the plight of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, no attention has been given to the inhumane treatment of a young Israeli held captive by the rulers of Gaza for more than 900 days.

Corporal Gilad Shalit, then 19-years-old, was kidnapped on June 25, 2006, by Hamas terrorists who infiltrated Israel from the Gaza Strip. Since the day of his abduction, Shalit has been hidden, his whereabouts unknown, and all of Israel’s attempts to negotiate his release with Hamas have been frustrated by the group’s demands for the release of hundreds of convicted Palestinian criminals and refusal to negotiate.

According to the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law, Hamas, as the ruling power of the Palestinian government, is required to extend humane treatment to its prisoners. Similarly, Hamas must give updates on its prisoners and allow communication between a prisoner and his family.

Hamas has not complied with these obligations.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has contacted Hamas leaders in an effort to confirm that Gilad is alive as well as to visit him; however, Hamas has refused to cooperate. Meanwhile, Shalit’s parents have received no word on their son’s status since the armed Palestinians abducted him two and a half years ago.

In the past, Palestinian organizations such as Hamas have relied on the ICRC to document accusations against Israel and often demanded that Israel allow its representatives to verify the conditions of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Israel, through negotiations with the Red Cross, has allowed the families of convicted Palestinians to visit the prisons. Israel has also routinely permitted the Red Cross to enter Palestinian territories to deliver food and medical care.

A similar situation occurred after the Lebanese terrorist group, Hezbollah, abducted soldiers Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev on July 12, 2006. Although the ICRC made many attempts to learn the fate of Goldwasser and Regev, Hezbollah repeatedly refused to allow the organization access to them. The Goldwasser and Regev families begged for a sign that their sons were alive and Hezbollah denied them even this token expression of humanity.

On July 16, 2008, two years after their capture, the corpses of the two soldiers were delivered to Israel in exchange for six Lebanese militants, including convicted murderer, Samir Kuntar. The Lebanese terrorists were delivered in healthy condition.

As in past hostage cases, Israel is willing to release dozens of Palestinians to win the freedom of even one soldier. Interestingly, the critics who always shout about Israel’s “disproportionate” responses to terror have nothing to say when Palestinians demand that disproportionate numbers of terrorists be released in exchange for innocent Israelis.

According to media reports, Israel is now willing to release as many 1,000 prisoners and open crossings into Gaza to secure Shalit’s release.

Meanwhile, the international community has turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to the plight of Gilad Shalit. The UN cease-fire resolution for Gaza makes no mention of him. While Gilad is treated as an expendable pawn in the larger Arab-Israeli chess game, the agonized cries of Noam and Aviva Shalit for their son continue to go unheard.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

Three articles on America’s most favorite state of Israel!
============================
Israel’s Naked Zionfascism
By Ghali Hassan

http://www.countercurrents.org/hassan190209.htm

Israel’s Zionfascism is the greatest threat to world peace and security. Its real aim has always been military domination and the obliteration of the Palestinian nation. It is time for people to stop acting like outsiders. The alternative is the global resistance campaign that includes boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) to defeat Zionfascism in pursuit of peace and Palestinian independence

The Roots Of Hatred In The Zionist Ideology
By Salim Nazzal

http://www.countercurrents.org/nazzal190209.htm

The fact that Hitler was democratically elected by the German people did not legitimize his policy of mass murder; in the same way the Israeli election of fascists and war criminals should not legitimate the Zionists’ policy of mass murder. However, if Hitler is the starkest model of the democratic electoral system that brought Nazism to power in Germany, the recent Israeli election is a more recent example of an election that brought another known fascist, Avigdor Lieberman, widely viewed as the Israeli duplicate of contemporary European fascists like Jorg Haider or Jean Marie Le Pen, to power

 

Fearing A ‘One State Solution’, Israel’s President Serves Pabulum To Washington
By Franklin Lamb

http://www.countercurrents.org/lamb190209.htm

Israel’s President urges the American people and government to, “commit our most concerted effort to allow two states to flourish.” Unless he and his fellow leaders of Israel are prepared, without further delay, to commit to a complete withdrawal to the June 4, 1967 armistice line, in a serious effort at peace, Israel will continue to lose American and International support and One State is the likely future for Palestine

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By cyrena, February 19, 2009 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, February 19 at 7:57 am

•  “Oh, it is because of the Jews”, always the same, stated in a strange uncomfortable negative undertone,  I remember scratching my little head and wondering, what is a jews? Whatever is a jews I had no idea, nor did it sound good to me from the tone, could it be something like the measles?  Bigotry was unknown to me then,  for I was quite young. 

•  Now finding myself within TD forums on articles not even pertaining on subjects of the Gaza problem,  The random interjection of “Zionist” in the same perceived negative tones. brought me back to memories of my childhood. 

~*~

Leefeller,

I definitely know the feeling. Keep in mind my Person of Color status…you heard the ‘adults’ whispering about jews without having a clue to what they were, aside from the ‘tone’ that made them pretty bad, whatever it/was meant of was. Believe me, I KNOW. I shared some fears of my own back in my childhood, back when the Klan was very active. I’d been told that they hated blacks, jews, catholics, and women. I figured I was SOOO screwed, because I was a black Indian catholic with tons of jewish neighbors. I was SURE the Klan was gonna wipe us ALL out, and in my 8 or 9 year old mentality, it made sense that they’d probably get ME first.

Fortunately for me, my stepfather, (also a Native Californian/American of multiple ethnicity) managed to calm my fears, as he has continued to do, at least until he called upon the right of the elderly to be grouchy and stubborn from time to time. He did that mostly by encouraging us to identify reality,  and to try to develop a value or personal priority system based on those realities, and to remember how little ‘control’ we can exhibit, (especially by force or manipulation) over the bigger picture, and that includes other humans. But he’s always did this with a tone of optimism, not defeat.

ALL of that aside however, (at least for the moment) I think I’ve identified the ‘confusion’ that prompted you to connect all of the TD complaints against Zionists to anti-Semitic sentiments against Jews. They aren’t even close to the same in terms of concepts, but they also cannot be separated from each other either, because Jews are both an ethnicity, (a sub-category of Semite, as are the Arabs) and they are associated with Judaism, via the religious link.

But in reality, Zionists are also a sub-category of Jews in general, and most importantly, Zionism is a POLITICAL IDEOLOGY. It is a political MOVEMENT, NOT unlike so many other’s that history has produced. It is a political movement with hugely nationalistic overtones, This political ‘movement’ began at the turn of the 20th Century, and the objective was to establish a state for “Jews Only”. The movement leaders has already selected what was then Palestine, to be the location of this Jews Only State, based on the BIBLICAL location of the place once called Zion. (again, identified by the Torah or the Old Testament however many hundreds of thousands of years ago THAT was).

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By cyrena, February 19, 2009 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

As a POLITICAL MOVEMENT, and like most other political movements, they are comprised of a group of people who SHARE COMMON INTERESTS and obviously IDEOLOGIES. So, they’re obviously Jews and they share the interest of having a state for Jews Only. It is that IDEOLOGY – the fundamentals of Zionism as it is practiced in order to accomplish the goals of the movement, that creates the animosity that you see or perceive as bigotry against Jews in general, at least in many of the comments on TD.

BECAUSE, the goals of the movement, and the core of the fundamentals of Zionism REQUIRE that the geographical space allowed for this Jews Only State be free of all other occupants! One cannot have a Jews Only, or an Africans Only, or a Chinese Only, or any other kind of One race/ethnicity Only state, if other people of other races and/or ethnicities also occupy the same geographical space. So in the case of the ZIONISTS, they determined AHEAD OF TIME, that they would simply ELIMINATE the non-Jewish population from the area, and that is what has continued to happen over the decades, beginning in full swing with the expulsion of nearly a million Palestinians from the area that the Zionists officially claimed (and was granted by the UN) in 1948.

This same movement has brilliantly managed to utilize the experience of the Jews under Hitler, and the other pre 20th Century prejudices against the Jews by OTHER peoples of the world, (NOT their Arab cousins, who did NOT run the Jews out of their original Zion of Biblical times) to maintain an excuse and even a SYMPATHY for their actions in killing off or otherwise ethnically cleansing that area of non-Jews.

So, that’s the confusion. When you hear people complain of Zionists, and display all of this animosity and yes, ‘hatred’ for them, it isn’t necessarily because of their race, (like in the case of the adults in your childhood blaming ‘whatever’ on “the Jews” – which is bigotry based on total IGNORANCE) but because of their ideological basis, (Zionism) which obviously practices its very own version of the same bigotry, in a classic case of the ‘abused’ becoming the ABUSERS!  This is HUMAN nature, not necessarily Jewish nature.

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By Shenonymous, February 19, 2009 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

trithoverlies/truthoverlies I waffle and am back in your universe!  You have expressed yourself excellently well!

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By Trithoverlies, February 19, 2009 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

I read numbers for damaged Homes 50,000 left homeless and such but agian these numbers are material thing which we all know can be replaced. What about the number of dead civilians in Gaza well 50,000 or 100,000 No less than 2,000 dead and about the same number wounded but again the Palestinian Newsman blamed most of the deaths on the fact that Hamas set up mortors and rockets on school playgrounds, in Backyards, and even next to U.N. Offices so why the destruction? blame the right people Israel did not wantenly destroy one home that was not being used by Hamas to launch mortors and rockets. I am sick of the anti-Jewish response of the left since I know that if your enemy is using civilians as shields this is not in the codes of war, and if that enemy continually uses civilian shields.  You must respond and the fact that civilian casualties were comparably light you can only reason that Israel yery carefully targeted their targets, and wanted to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible. But in war the innocent get hurt and there is little one can do to limit casualties more than what the I.D.F. did. We see the mentality of today is to condemn Israel when Hamas was launching hundreds of rockets and mortors into Israel. I realy don’t understand this automatic hatred toward Israel when it is clear they have continually tried to avoid civilian casualties.  But Hamas murdered Home owners who tried to refuse them the use of their backyards and shot others in the legs and arms for protesting Hamas’s illegal cowardly behavior. I don’t see major headlines about this in our papers I didn’t hear them on the NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, or even the most trusted name in news CNN but these atrocities were common by Hamas.  They show the dipravity that Hamas will stoop to in order to kill Jews so stop shoveling your load of dung, and start pointing to the true culprits Hamas, and Hezzbollah for cowardly using schools and individual homes and even Mosque to fire their weapons from. Stop sending Hamas and Hezzbollah millions to continue their outrages reigns of terror.  If you want peace than strip Hamas and Hezzbollah, and allow the Palestinians to get out from under the thumb of such despots and begin to heal wounds and develope trade, bussinesses, agriculture and drill for the natural gas along their coast line, and oil on the West Bank.  Prosperity will bring peace and a two state solution but Hezzbollah and Hamas do not wan’t prosperity because their recruitment would dry up and they would go out of existance.
      Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
        John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Shenonymous, February 19, 2009 at 11:52 am Link to this comment

While there are several definitions for the word ‘liberty,’ Leefeller, the one I am most focused on is “the condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.  It is a word most akin to freedom and they are often used interchangeably.  Libertarians use the word as their mantra, but I do not agree with most of the libertarian views of government as I believe there must be order and not anarchic chaos within a coherent group.  That is I admit a limited view of the ideology of libertarianism, and I would expand on that at another time.  What I see is that order must be conventionally agreed to by the members of that group, whether it be a local social club or a nation.  I would add a condition or caveat to that.  The agreement or social contract must be healthy for all members and would be tolerant of others and other nations or groups who do not subscribe to that contract without duress.  When a country makes laws, I think they must be made by a duly elected body.  Whether that body is republican (representative) or democratic (plebiscite) is really not important except there would be the conservative or liberal view of how things ought to be done.  Sound and sensible negotiation of the differences would be the rule.  For myself, the voting public I believe should be a plebiscite, where an entire electorate is invited to accept or refuse a proposal.  I believe that is how a population exercises the right of self-determination. 

For a more comprehensive look at the notion of liberty, you might navigate to
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/liberty
where you would find the first paragraph says:
Liberty is generally considered a concept of political philosophy and identifies the condition in which an individual has the ability to act according to his or her own will.  That idea does not contain any restraints.  It seems that state of affairs would not work well in a multi-cultural and hugely populated group.

I understand that the Palestinian people want the right of self-determination and want a plebiscite vote in Israel.  I also understand that the Israelis would be concerned with that set up since the Palestinians would work to tear down the Israeli structure and replace it with their own.  These two groups have diametrically opposed world views, opposing religions, and opposing ideologies.  It might be possible for contrary groups to get along, but I do not think these two factions can under the historic circumstances with death dealing destruction coming from both sides. 

While Israel is seen as wanting their country to be theirs and theirs alone, and hence seen as imperialists in that sense, one has only to take a look at a map of that area to see how really tiny is the country of Israel compared to the thousands upon thousands of square miles that is Arab.  Israel has not attempted to acquire any other lands except in Lebanon when a war was waged and the contiguous land would have provided security for Israel proper.  On the other hand, over the millennia there has been a provably history that Islam has sought to acquire land and the assimilation countries, to wit the incursion into Spain, and elsewhere which would take a long commentary to demonstrate.  I invite those interested to do some research on their own.

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By Leefeller, February 19, 2009 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

She,

First lthought your post may seem off topic, delving a little deeper into freedom of speech opposed to supremacism, justification of your post becomes more apparent. 

Many posters on TD I suspect would applaud the removal of the freedom of speech, unless it was in agreement. Ignorance demands little of knowing other than indoctrinated absolutisms.

I claim ignorance on your definition of liberty, as to my support or not. Is not liberty man made for waving flags or has the definition been abused.  Religion most if not all, do not have tolerance for freedom of speech, what about liberty or freedom in general, freedom to decide, think, reason?

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By Robert, February 19, 2009 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

“How can anyone trust the Israeli military?”

In the rockets’ red glare

01.15.2009 | Haaretz
By Amira Hass

“The earth shaking under your feet, clouds of choking smoke, explosions
like a fireworks display, bombs bursting into all-consuming flames that
cannot be extinguished with water, mushroom clouds of pinkish-red smoke,
suffocating gas, harsh burns on the skin, extraordinary maimed live and
dead bodies. All of this is being caused by the bombs Israel is dropping
on the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, according to reports and
testimonies from there. Since the first day of the Israeli aerial
attack, people have been giving exact descriptions of the side effects
of the bombing, and claiming that Israel is using weapons and ammunition
that they have not seen during the past eight years. Furthermore, the
kinds of grave injuries doctors at hospitals in the Strip have reported
are providing yet another explanation for the overwhelming dread
inhabitants are experiencing in any case.”


“The fireworks-like explosions, the thick smoke, suffocating gas, and
flames that are not extinguished by water, but rather are heightened by
it - all of these are characteristic of the white phosphorus bombs the
IDF is using. Garlasco believes the decision to make such extensive use
of these bombs, manufactured by America’s General Dynamics Corporation,
stems from conclusions drawn from the Second Lebanon War, in which the
IDF lost many tanks.

“The phosphorus bombs create a thick smokescreen and if Hamas has an
anti-tank rocket, the smoke prevents the rocket from tracking the tank,”
he explains. There are two ways to use the bombs: The first is to impact
them on the ground, in which case the resulting thick smokescreen covers
a limited area; the second way is an airburst of a bomb, which contains
116 wafers doused in phosphorus. The moment the bomb blows up and the
phosphorus comes in contact with oxygen - it ignites. This is what
creates the “fireworks” and billows of jellyfish-shaped smoke. The
fallout covers a wide area and the danger of fires and harm to civilians
is enormous. The phosphorus burns glass, and immediately ignites paper,
trees, wood - anything that is dry. The burning wafers causes terrible
injury to anyone who comes in contact with them. The irony is that tear
gas is included in the Chemical Weapons Convention and is subject to all
kinds of restrictions, whereas phosphorus is not.

And in the meantime, in the hospitals in Gaza there are people lying in
beds - among them many children - whose severe injuries and burns have
appalled the medical teams.”

http://www.omgili.com/newsgroups/soc/culture/israel/CPGdnb2harfDMu3UnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2dgiganewscom.html&q=Italian+military

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By Shenonymous, February 19, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Supremacism and its death knoll for free people everywhere. .  A personal commentary.  You will see this post on other forums

Free people everywhere share the responsibility to challenge supremacism and the denial of free speech around the world. This view, my view, is based on defending the inalienable human rights of free speech, equality, and liberty - which demands a rejection of all supremacism, including Islamic supremacism which has ascended most large in today’s world.  It’s imperialism is a like a creeping illness.  A pernicious infection.  Failure to defy supremacism will not only cost freedoms - it will also cost a people’s identity.  Those who appease and support such supremacism, consciously or not (and it is this latter that is most troubling since there is a blindness at work), will seek to use national influence and power as a weapon against freedom.  This we have encountered repeatedly and recently as happened in other nations though not to the expansionist extent as being conducted by Islamists.  Islamist supremacism, Russian, Israeli, Zimbabwe are most noticeable today, though it has been a historic affliction that included Germany’s Socialist Nazism and even earlier the Napoleonic and Mongolian hordes, and Japan’s attack on China are a few others, and not to leave out the attack on Iraq by the preemptive United States.  Distressingly, this kind of belief has crept into Zionist Israel over decades as well and also must be seen for what it is, but all of it, wherever it emerged must be seen with a detached and unemotional eye in order to be seen for exactly what it is. Outrage against supremacism is not enough.  Voices against it must speak up and loudly enough so that the din of the perpetrators is drowned out and a creeping into the collective consciousness against such fascism begins to grow.

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By Robert, February 19, 2009 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

February 19, 2009

Lobbyists Whistle Up Cordesman to “Prove” Israel Waged a Clean War in Gaza

The Cleanser

By NORMAN FINKELSTEIN


“Israel destroyed or damaged 15,000 homes (50,000 Gazans were left homeless), 160 schools, 1,500 factories and workshops, and 80 percent of agricultural crops.  If, as Cordesman says, Israel used precision intelligence and weaponry, then the massive destruction must overwhelmingly have been intentional.  In fact such destruction was critical and integral to the success of Operation Cast Lead.  The operation’s goal, according to Cordesman, was to “restore Israeli deterrence, and show the Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria that it was too dangerous to challenge Israel.”  But Israel could not restore its deterrence by inflicting a narrowly military defeat because Hamas was manifestly not a military power.  To quote Cordesman, “It…is not clear that any opponent of Israel felt Hamas was really strong enough to be a serious test of Israeli ground forces.”  Thus Israel could only restore its deterrence by demonstrating the amount of sheer destruction it was ready and willing to inflict.  Again, in Cordesman’s words, Israel “had [to] make its enemies feel it was ‘crazy,’” and was prepared to inflict destruction on a “scale [that] is unpredictable” and heedless of “world opinion.”  In all fairness it is also possible that Israel targeted so many homes because, according to the IDF spokesman Cordesman uncritically quotes, “Hamas is booby-trapping every home that is abandoned by its residents.”  Shouldn’t Hamas then be listed in the Guinness Book of World Records for “most homes booby-trapped in the heat of battle”?  As it happens, after the massacre was over the IDF itself conceded that the “scale of destruction” was legally indefensible.

Cordesman also plays up Israel’s humanitarian relief efforts during the massacre.  Lest there be doubt about the genuineness of Israeli concerns, he repeatedly cites Israeli press statements as well as “Israeli Ministry of Defense claims” affirming it.  He also includes an unimpeachable statement from none other than Defense Minister Ehud Barak, “We are well aware of the humanitarian concerns; we are doing and will continue to do everything possible to provide all humanitarian needs to the residents of Gaza.”  The reality on the ground looked rather different, however.  “UN agencies and humanitarian NGOs continued to carry out operations despite extreme insecurity,” the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) observed.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein02192009.html

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By Leefeller, February 19, 2009 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Gaza convoy from London?  “We Come In Peace. We Will Not Be Stopped” not until they reach the ocean, maybe we will behold the parting of the seas again, though it depends on God’s mood and whose side he is on.

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By Robert, February 19, 2009 at 9:43 am Link to this comment

Gaza Convoy - A Movement Of The Streets

“We Come In Peace. We Will Not Be Stopped”

By George Galloway and By Yvonne Ridley

A convoy of more than 110 vehicles has snaked its way out of London for Gaza to deliver more than £1m worth of aid, including ambulances and a fire engine.


http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22028.htm

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By Leefeller, February 19, 2009 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Ceryena

Fostering hate and bile against the Jew, as I perceive from many posters on TD, brings me to   remising of when I was a young child walking along looking for water puddles, attacking and trouncing on them with force for the huge splash, filling my rubber boots with water.  My memories of childhood are usually vague, but clearly I remember hearing comments from adults talking when all of a sudden the tone of conversation changed: “Oh, it is because of the Jews”, always the same, stated in a strange uncomfortable negative undertone,  I remember scratching my little head and wondering, what is a jews? Whatever is a jews I had no idea, nor did it sound good to me from the tone, could it be something like the measles?  Bigotry was unknown to me then,  for I was quite young. 

Now finding myself within TD forums on articles not even pertaining on subjects of the Gaza problem,  The random interjection of “Zionist” in the same perceived negative tones. brought me back to memories of my childhood. 
   
In answer to my own rhetorical question, “Which comes first bigotry or hate”?  My personal experience,  would argue bigotry comes first, with hate to follow.  For the cultivation of hate needs to start from the seed of bigotry. 

She,

Much appreciate your comments, especially the calling to attention of the French word “Revanchism”.  In our community, we have in history several episodes tantamount to the “Hatfield’s and McCoy’s”.  Dost not speak well of human nature and what is alleged as civilization

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By Shenonymous, February 19, 2009 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

The recent four-page pompous fulmination against Shenonymous looks like there is something actually said, but if one who is able to think rigorously and actually could stomach reading through it, that mind would discover easily there is no content.  Just a lot of blather.  And most certainly the right to say whatever one can concoct is something I would champion, lest it becomes slanderous, which within the safety of the forums that is almost a negligible issue, save a report to a TD, which I will not do.

Reading my comments shows, regardless of what my concerns, they are usually an emotionless view.  It is just that what I say pushes the pathologically frustrated buttons of those who disagree with me.  Their comments mostly slides right off my back, although I have responded in kind on occasion.  I claim not to be a goddess, I am a human being.

The single thing that motivates my participation on these anti-Zionist pro-Hamas forums is the issue of freedom of speech.  For me, it is the most basic of freedoms that humans must demand, and have!  And must be fiercely defended. The tenor of these threads is that if one should take an opposing view, in this case that Israel has rights, has a history of being a persecuted people, and retaliates because of that history, then an unprecedented avalanche of excoriation floods the forum from a contingent whose cemented minds cannot contemplate for one second that there might be some merit to the proposition.  So copious, enormous volumes of history has to be presented to educate the abject and biased or just plain ignorant.  There is without a doubt a coalition of Islamist ideologues and Arab sympathizers underneath and driving the entire diatribe. Only because freedom of speech is not a right of Arab Islamist people.  Taking the question of free speech will direct thought to places that are enormous and the question of Israel and the Palestinians is larger than the Gaza War.  It is not one sided and Israel has righteousness. 

There is no intention to absolve Israelis of wrongdoing.  There is plenty of evidence that they are not above the worst kind of deplorable acts against the Palestinians.  Making the case that the other side, the Hamas/Palestinians, is the same is simply deflecting that issue.  However, the fact also remains that there are those in the Arab empire that has been guilty of the most heinous of acts against humans.  Bringing up the details of Israeli guilt at oppressing Palestinians is also deflecting the truth of Arab culpability.  Pointing fingers does not stop the ugly senselessness, it exacerbates it. 

Here is a bit of education for any and all:

Revanchism (from French revanche, “revenge”) is a term used since the 1870s to describe a political manifestation of the will to reverse territorial losses incurred by a country, often following a war. Revanchism draws its strength from patriotic and retributionist thought and is often motivated by economic or geo-political factors. Extreme revanchist ideologues often represent a hawkish stance, suggesting that desired objectives can be reclaimed in the positive outcome of another war.

So from its detractors, Israel is being accused of wanting to reclaim parts of Israel that are occupied by Palestinians.  The counter accusation is that the Arab empire wants to reclaim the entire land occupied by Israel.  Things are not as simple as just stated, so reflective human beings have to take an unimpassioned look at the way things are. 

I will continue to discuss the matter of freedom of speech.

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By tpdougherty1937, February 19, 2009 at 7:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hi Everybody,

You are right. When I mentioned that Norman Finklestein was fired from DePaul University, I meant that he was fired for his sympathy for the Palestinians. Through a careless turn of phrase, I said the very opposite of what I intended to say. Mea culpa!

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment

You hit on an important matter cyrena, and that is the inconsistency in the logic of Zionist revisionism.

- On one hand we are told that Israel was a land without a people for a people without a land. Then we are told that, OK there were people there, but they were too mean to share their land and agree to a division to make room for a Jewish state.
- No there wasn’t an ethnic cleansing on Palestine, but the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948, so they were driven out because the Arabs attacked first.  This is in spite of rhetoric from Ben Gurion that he saw no moral problem with removing the Arabs to make way for the Jews.
- Israel took the West Bank fair and square (by force) but anyone who wants to win it back by force) is a terrorist.

And on it goes.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 16 at 10:36 pm

•  “You continuously attack me, which is the basic ad hominem attack, and has the implication that these attacks undermines everything I’ve said. It dosn’t.”

Wrong. I don’t ‘attack’ YOU shenonymous, (consistently or otherwise). I DISPUTE your emotional rhetoric and call it what it is, and expose it for what it is, in the spirit of intellectual integrity. It’s not about YOU shenonymous, any more than it is about ME. (or at least it isn’t SUPPOSED to be!!)It’s about sorting out the facts (because facts are facts regardless of what language they are spoken, or who is doing the speaking).

That said, NOTHING ‘undermines’ YOU personally, unless you have some remaining remnants of realizing that you are obviously connected to your own thoughts and behaviors. In reality, it only UNDERMINES what you’ve said in terms of your erronenous connections to the root causes of the Palestinian Genocide and others like it. So, YOU UNDERMINE YOURSELF.  For months now, you’ve been trying to make a case AGAINST the Palestinian cause for survial, based on your obsession with Islamic extremism as you ‘see’ practiced by ARABS, (as opposed to other Muslims). At least that’s how it started out. It was all the fault of the honor killers, and the beheaders and other characters from the Indiana Jones series.

And, nobody really knows WHY you have been so obsessed with Islamic Extremism, (and no one here that I’m aware of –least of all myself- has ever failed to acknowledge these instances of Islamic extremism when you repeatedly focus on them.) In other words, since we aren’t stupid, we know that mentalities of Islamic Extremism do in fact exist, just as the same exists in other religions. Some of us know this because we’ve taken the time to study this stuff, and others of us know it because we have experienced/lived it personally. In many cases, (and particularly in respect to the practioners of Islam in Arabia) it is BOTH, because of course they live their religion, but are by far more highly educated about their own religion and culture than we are in the West.

Be that as it may, we still don’t know what has prompted YOUR particular and seemingly long ago adopted prejuidice toward Arab Muslim MEN, because you’ve never told us. We only know that you have it, based on your own comments on this forum over these many, many, months, and it’s true that you DON’T generally contribute to any other forum that doesn’t allow for your tirade on religious extremism, and what are surly at least ‘some’ legitimate grievances, against patriarchial males who use religion as one of the ‘covers’ for their criminal and pathological behavior.

And we also know that your personal obsession with religious extremism (of ANY brand) is NOT the root cause of the conflicts currently raging in the Middle East, that have taken so many lives, for such a long period of time, and inflicted 60-years worth of misery on a huge population of humanity. We DO know that shenonymous, and it is only your rhetoric that attempts to make that connection, that has been undermined.

That’s because it HAS to be undermined, if ever there is to be a resolution. You cannot continue (intentionally or otherwise) to spin unrelated ideological propaganda to the cause and effects of the Palestinian Genocide or any other conflict. And, that’s what you’ve consistently attempted to do. It is intellectual malpractice, and a gross violation of professional integrity, specifically when it is done intentionally.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

2 of 4

Here again, that’s exactly what you’ve done, in your attempts to force a cause and effect where they don’t exist. You want to make a square peg fit into a round hole, and you won’t stop until you’ve accomplished that, knowing full well that it cannot be accomplished WITHOUT FORCE, which includes the twisting of facts and other evidence to ‘make it fit’. It doesn’t fit, because you’ve had to pound it in there, in an exercise of ideological jerry-rigging, just to make it ‘fit’ thereby leaving your whole thesis full of gaping holes and leaking toxins, just like any other jerry-rigged operation would be.

The fact that you’ve had to FORCE the connection should be the immediate ‘clue’ that it DOESN’T FIT, and therefore, that must NOT be the right cause/effect.  It might ‘fit’ something else in your overall l thesis or hypothesis, but it has zero bearing on the CAUSE of THESE conflicts.  In other words, the Islamic Extremism piece of the puzzle doesn’t belong in this particular jigsaw puzzle AT ALL. In fact, it doesn’t even belong in the box that all of the other pieces came in.

You may even know that yourself by now, but in a typical state of the kind of neurosis that affects so many of us, you are DETERMINED to use that piece of the puzzle anyway, so you just keep using more and more force to ‘make it fit’, instead of looking around for the pieces that obviously will, if you’d even look at them long enough or carefully enough to figure it out. You won’t, in part because you don’t ‘like’ the ‘source/person’ of the information/part that DOES fit, and because your goal is that YOU be RIGHT, not that the pieces really fit properly instead of creating a master disaster. Because of course by now, you’ve damaged both the square peg and the round hole, but you don’t much give a damn about that, as long as you can say you MADE it fit, and that YOU are ‘RIGHT’.

Except of course that you aren’t; At least not in terms of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and that’s what makes your jerry-rigging of the history and the facts, and the perpetration of unrelated propaganda very dangerous. If it was just you having to live from the damage of exercises at cutting off your own nose to spite your OWN face, it wouldn’t be an issue. A few of us would care on a personal level, because we don’t want you to cut off your own nose. It’s painfully stupid and self-destructive, and I personally hate to see anybody indulge in such behavior. Still, that’s about YOU, so at the end, you still call the shots if you wanna spite your face, and think cutting off your nose is a good way to do it.

But the forcing of misinformation and jerry-rigged facts that effect the well-being of others becomes a different story, particularly once it’s become very willful. In other words, it’s one thing to pass along inflammatory or downright WRONG information when one honestly believes the so-called ‘facts’ that make it true. One can certainly be forgiven for not knowing a particular piece or collection of information that doesn’t directly concern them, or even when it does.

But when one CONTINUES to perpetrate the same misinformation by carefully selecting isolated pieces of ‘evidence’  taken totally out of the context in which it was presented, or weaving parts of the real evidence with gossip and personal ideologies to present as ‘fact’, and do so WILLFULLY, then it is what it is, and you should expect to be called to task on it. That you have chosen to take it personally is very revealing, but maybe that is what it is as well.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 10:49 pm Link to this comment

3 of 4

So, you say this:
•  “You also seem to think that by linking Sepharad and me that you have somehow impugned both of us when what either she or I have said has been the truth and nothing but the truth.”

I never linked you to Sepharad, YOU LINKED YOURSELVES TO EACH OTHER! (Actually, I think it was when you began indulging in the girls’ high school behavior after Sepharad came to your ‘defense’ having long ago bad mouthed me on long ago threads on this forum.)  She obviously didn’t read the posts that made it clear that you were perfectly capable of ‘defending’ yourself, even at the expense of your own integrity.)

So nope, I never ‘linked’ you, if only because I saw Sepharad for what she was long ago. But my point here, is that it is INCORRECT that everything you or she have said has been the truth, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!! THAT’S been the whole point, and what brought this to a head. If you ladies were just speaking the TRUTH, as it exists in its OBJECTIVE CONTEXT or it’s natural habitat, that would be one thing. But you simply spew SUBJECTIVE and SELECTIVE propaganda , and cut and paste stuff that we already know to weave in as the objective or fact- based source for the propaganda. It STILL doesn’t make it any less propaganda, or any ‘truer’ to the topic of investigation.

Sepharad claims (in her self-assigned capacity as Arab Islamic Social Psychologist) that the Palestinians “never ‘ GOT OVER’ got over the Nakba (that was the removal by force of at least 750,000 of them from their homes in 1948, along with the intentional destruction of their villages and other infrastructure) the way the Jews ‘got over’ Hitler’s crimes against them.

Is this the truth Shenonymous? And just for the sake of argument, let’s say that it is. Can you help us figure out how or what this has to do with the continued destruction of that population since 1948? And while you’re at it, tell us the most important thing about this dangerous propaganda, why does your ‘link’ believe that the victims of Hitler’s atrocity ‘got over’ it, and why does she think the Palestinians should ‘get over’ their own genocide, just because Sepharad claims that’s what the Jews of Hitler’s crimes have done.

And what a joke THAT is…they’ve ‘gotten over it huh? No, they haven’t ‘gotten over’ it. They’re either dead as a result, or escaped, and the ones who managed to escape, or were never themselves victimized to begin with, have only used it as an excuse to perpetrate the atrocities against a different population, CHOSEN ONLY BECAUSE OF THEIR LOCATION ON THE GLOBE.

If the Zionists had decided that they wanted Indonesia instead of the Middle East, they would have eliminated THOSE occupants, and claimed it was because of what Hitler did to them. So I guess Sepharad would say that if those Indonesians rebelled against being slaughtered in masse, and or expelled from their homes by force, then it must mean that THEY just couldn’t ‘get over’ it either. So we’re just supposed to accept that as a ‘nothing but the truth fact’, (they just can’t ‘get over’ it) and move right along with the continued extermination, or have you turn our attention to what occurred in the Jewish Holocaust under Hitler and others…so that we can say it’s all perfectly understandable, Hitler did terrible things to Jews, and so that means that they deserve a state of their own, and anybody that might already be living there has to be eliminated. Is THAT some of the truth that you all keep saying in your ‘nothing but the truth’ claims?

Well, maybe not, since that was one of HER ‘truths’ and not yours. Here’s one of yours, and it appears to have been deleted from the thread, though my earlier mention response to it is still posted, and you never responded.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

4 of

This particular ‘truth’ of yours is that the Zionist Jews DESERVE to have the land that they’ve stolen and purged of other occupants, BECAUSE, also according to you, ‘they are better warriors’ as a result of all the harassment of all the harassment they’ve had to contend with. And then there’s the OTHER ‘truth’ that you write to us here; the Palestinians never had any land of their own anyway. That is YOUR ‘truth’ and nothing but the truth, and I call it very loaded language and SUBJECTIVE ‘opinion’, based on either ignorance or bigotry, and totally devoid of any truth at all.

You also failed to tell us how (if it is ‘true’ that the Israelis ‘own their land’) HOW that is ‘true’, and I asked you specifically to support this ‘fact/truth’ of yours, by telling us how they came to ‘own’ it. You don’t say, and you never will, because THAT would lead us to truths that COMPETE with YOUR ‘truths’ – those that you’ve chosen to selectively deliver out of context.

There are more lies from you Shenonymous, but we can call them something else if you prefer, since a few of them may start out innocently enough, based on ignorance. For instance, your claims of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields is a LIE. And, it’s a LIE that has been disproven over and over again, just have other of your ‘truths’ have been. But one thing we know from you Shenonymous, is that you will NEVER, EVER, EVER, admit to an error. You will never say, OH, so I was wrong. You just can’t do it. So you can keep thinking of other things to call your propaganda, since nobody really likes to be called a liar, even if they are.

But what we (or at least I) will NOT do, is allow you to pass your PERSONALLY ideologically tortured logic off as some semblance of any truth or reality.
So, every time you lie, I will continue to correct the record, just as I will with any other lies posted here. If you want to take it personally in emotional terms, maybe you should, since it might be a clue (even though you’ve missed dozens of others) that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, in which case you might even try to find out, even if you never admit it.

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By wildflower, February 18, 2009 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Re OzarkMichael’s Post” “I am worried for the Jews of Europe, not just of Israel.”

And I’m worried about my tax dollars being used to assist a country that conducts themselves in such an inhumane manner:

“Israel’s major military operation destroyed many lives and dramatically worsened Gaza’s humanitarian crisis,” said Fred Abrahams, senior emergencies researcher at Human Rights Watch, who just spent two weeks in Gaza. “Security concerns do not justify the collective punishment of 1.5 million people by keeping out the aid and supplies they desperately need.”

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/02/18/israelegypt-choking-gaza-harms-civilians

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

I don’t believe that hundreds of thousands of Arabs fled Israel because they didn’t want to live under Jews, because even Israeli historians, including right wing Zionists like Benny Morris, have documented the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. 

Prove one book or historical account that the Iranian Jews were expelled and expelled as consequence or a program to remove them from Iran.

As for the tunnels that Israel has been bombing were NOT used to send suicide bombers to attack Israel. You are merely citing Israeli official sources. Tunnels have been used as justification for all manner of acts from bulldozing homes, to crushing the skull of Rachel Corrie.

Now let’s analyze the rest of your thesis shall we?

Israel attacks have not been directed at military installations, not tanks, nor arms depots.  Israel always claim that Hamas, liek KHezbollah, hide among populations or use human shields, but in the case of the 2006 war, this was exposed as a lie.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_and_hrw_claims_discredited_in_detailed_report
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/human-rights-watch-troubling-report/46037/
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002

No wonder Israel did not want foreign journalists entering Gaza.

In any case, Israel’s military headquarters are placed in the middle of populated areas, so it could be argued that Hamas have tried to strike military targets, but missed.

And furthermore, let’s be real about Hamas’ pathetic rockets.  Apart from very limited range, they have no guidance systems anyway, so how are they going to strike Israeli military targets?

If you want Hams to strike precise targets, then why not lobby to send them F0-16 fighters so they can guide their bombs more precisely?

>> Even certain political targets, while harder to swallow, bear a certain legitimacy.  But not deliberate targeting of civilians.

You are really playing dumb here aren’t you?  Israel routinely kidnaps Palestinians and imprisons them, yet all we ever hear about is Gilad Shalit.

>> I find it absurd that Isreal and the IDF would authorize a tactic they KNOW doesn’t work—it doesn’t work against them.

You might find it absurd, but it is common.  Take Lebanon 2006 for example.  Israel thought they could win a war from the air by bombing a civilian equinoctials and force the population to turn against Hhezbollah.  It backfires.  Again in Gaza, Hams became more popular, not less.

But, he’s not alone in that—many so-called “progressives” here do the same thing.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 18, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

Shingo:

You believe that hundreds of thousands of Jews fled Iran because they didn’t want to live under the Islamic Republic.  So…why don’t you believe that hundreds of thousands of Arabs fled Israel because they didn’t want to live under Jews?  That they were driven out.

Cyrena: Actually the tunnels that Israel has been bombing WERE used to send suicide bombers to attack.

Let me set MY moral line in the sand.  If the rocket attacks and the suicide bombers were directed at military installations, at tanks, soldiers, arms depots, etc. I wouldn’t like it but I would ACCEPT it as a legitimate target in a conventional war or in a guerrilla war.  I would argue that the Gazans can fight such a war, even if I disagree with their position.  Even certain political targets, while harder to swallow, bear a certain legitimacy.  But not deliberate targeting of civilians.

I find it absurd that Isreal and the IDF would authorize a tactic they KNOW doesn’t work—it doesn’t work against them.  They can’t be satanically wise and stupid at the same time.

I don’t object to Truthoverlies being Christian—that’s his right just like it’s mine to think it isn’t valid.  I DO object to him straying off-course to preach that we are all going to Hell if we don’t endorse HIS savior as he interprets it. It’s not an argument.

But, he’s not alone in that—many so-called “progressives” here do the same thing.

On the subject of Christians—Pat Robertson condemned Rush Limbaugh for saying he hopes Obama will fail—Robertson pointedly said he hopes Obama succeeds.  Of course, we all know what that racist may be saying in private—but in public it’s a heck of a slap to Ol’ Rush!

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 18, 2009 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The rules are different for the Jews ....

Wed Feb 18, 9:03 AM

By The Associated Press

NEW YORK - The author of a discredited Holocaust memoir is not apologizing.

Herman Rosenblat, who has acknowledged inventing his story of meeting his wife on opposite sides of a concentration camp fence, told “Good Morning America” that he has no regrets and would tell the story again given another chance.

“It wasn’t a lie,” he said during a taped segment aired Wednesday. “It was my imagination, and in my mind, I believed it. Even now, I believe
it.”

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, Feb 17 at 7:28 am

•  “How does the hate meter work?  Which comes first, bigotry or hate?” 

I didn’t respond to this before Leefeller, because I figured it would be a waste of time…yours, mine, everybody’s. But, that was a temporary moment of discouragement on my part, after reading through several of your recent posts. You seem convinced that the plight of the Jews, and whatever caused their horrific experience under the totalitarian regime of Hitler and his Nazis, or Stalin and his gang, is somehow continuing, and that anyone who criticizes the actions of the Israeli Government are the perpetrators of this continuing hate campaign against Jews in general, based on some inherent bigotry towards Jews.

This is very distressing, (and obviously discouraging) to hear, since you’ve always presented yourself here as a basically reasonable person, who could see things as they actually ARE, and even WHY things are as they are, because we all know there is never one ‘reason’ for any of the behaviors that humans exihibit toward each other in any given set of circumstances. We also know that while those given sets of circumstances may not be IDENTICAL to other ‘similar’ sets of circumstances and the ‘results’, they basically all share the same root causes, and the results are the same.

Genocide is an excellent example, and the work has been done to prove these ‘properties’ of Genocide. They are, with few exceptions, politically motivated, and we discover that by going to the root of the conflict, INCLUDING the ideological component, and then follow it out, including ALL of the dynamics, because they are constantly shifting in any cycle of socio-political conflicts.

But I digressed. I changed my mind about responding to the hate-bigotry question of which came first, (because in those terms, hate and bigotry are like the chicken and the egg) until I came across an excellent question (and answer) on another thread.
I don’t remember who asked the question, or who responded, though I think the response came from Anarcissie. (I’ll try to find it, but it’s been a few days ago, and I don’t even remember which thread.) So here’s a paraphrase until I can find it:
The questioner said he was having trouble figuring out the differences in bigotry/hate based on religion, and that based on racism.

The response was that the religious bigotry had some ‘substance’ to it, at least ideologically. One could come to display a great deal of hate and bigotry based on the ideological tenets of any given religion, specifically when it directly conflicts with our own. Racism on the other hand, has no substance and is based on things like the color of ones skin, or the size of ones nose, or the texture of ones hair. Or at least that is how it is manifested. I think that is a pretty good way to break it down.

Of course I would argue that neither religion or racism is ever the real cause of the hate. Hate is just something that’s out there, and part of the human social condition. There are a multitude ‘reasons’ for hate to manifest itself, and it manifests itself in many ways. Bigotry based on race, ethnicity, national origin, color, religion, class, or gender are just some of the many ways this occurs.

This may seem ‘unrelated’ to your own line of thinking, but it’s an attempt on my part, to expose the real cause of most genocides, (which includes the Palestinian Holocaust/Genocide as well as the current genocide in Darfur.)

Check specifically the background on the Darfur conflict, who’s roots are POLITICAL and very typical – two rebel groups resisting the central government authority, which is a hard core authoritarian regime determined not to cede any power under any circumstances. You will find no mention of religious ideological differences at the root of this conflict, just as that was never the real reason for the behavior of the KKK either.

http://www.savedarfur.org

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By OzarkMichael, February 18, 2009 at 4:07 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

I do not know how long you have been a Christian, so i give you some advice. As a Jewish person once confided to me, “In this place,(medical school on the east coast) as soon as you confess that you are a Christian everyone ‘knows’ that they dont have to listen to what you say. But dont back down either! I admire you.”

In those days a person could stand up for the Jews, which this man did. He was a lion of a debater. It was hard to stand up for Christianity in those days at that place.

His concern for me was quite touching, but it puzzled me since we didnt know each other. So I asked about it, and he looked a little nervous and took me aside, to a room where he could close the door. And not satisfied with that he bent towards me and whispered as if he was an outlaw imparting a secret to me, and said quietly to me “I am a Christian, too.”

I will not talk about the rest of the conversation, except to note that things have changed in the world since then.  Today one cannot speak even for the Jews without being shouted down or having things thrown at you. I am more than a little worried about that. I am worried for the Jews of Europe, not just of Israel.

Trithoverlies, you have chosen double jeopardy.  You know what i mean so i will not elaborate. I will say to you what the jewish man said to me, and as I do so I feel i am repaying a debt to him:

“In this place,(Truthdig, college, wherever) as soon as you confess that you are a Christian everyone ‘knows’ that they dont have to listen to what you say. But dont back down either! I admire you.”

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By PatrickHenry, February 18, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

By Leefeller, February 18 at 1:32 pm #

I have it on good authority the chimp was a zionist, I don’t know if it was jewish or not.

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

Good advice you gave to Truthoverlies.  At least debates with you can take place on the earthly realm.
I read an article recently that described the Israeli/Palestine conflict as a ten minute flick of a man basing his wife.  The Israeli narrative always begins ar the 9th minute where the wife stories back after being beaten senseless.

The rockets and suicide bombings don’t happen for out of the clear blue sky, they are are a response to what has been perpetrated on their own civilian population.

If the the Islamic Revolution in Iran was not tolerant, then there would be no Jews remaining in Iran would there?  Yes,  hundreds of thousands fled (not forced to flee) and left a population of only 10,000, which subsequently has more than doubled to 25,000.  How many Jews were killed during the revolution?  You could count them on one hand. In 2008, Israel killed more Palestinians in the West Bank (where no rockets were fired) each week.

Yes, the treatment of the Ba’Hai is to be condemned, but it pales into insignificance compared to the brutality’s of Israel. 

And no, I have never tried to defend the Bashir regime in Sudan, but the Bashir regime are black Africans too.  The conflict is a tribal one and what’s more, it is a conflict between rival Sunni factions.  By the way, have you noticed there have been no suicide bombings in Sudan – ergo no occupation.  There are similar conflicts in the Congo.  They are appealing and tragic, but such is the fete of Africa.

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

•  “However, I ask myself: How can you ask this of him when EVERY d*** thread turns into another screed about how Israel is fascist and the poor, poor Palestinians are justified using shooting rockets and sending suicide bombers against civilian populations?”
Inherit,
Careful with the ‘justified’ about anything.
I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that the sending of unaimed rockets in the those areas/towns currently and illegally occupied by Israelis,  is ‘justified’ as much as it is entirely understandable that they would so react. In the past 10 years, less than 7 Israeli CIVILIANS have been killed from violence related to this 60-year old one-sided conflict, and again, that is only in those areas that they have settled illegally in what were formerly Palestinian/Arab towns and villages. I’ll find the reference later if you need that, but it has been posted here before.
And please stop with the suicide bombing of civilan populations by the Palestinian militants, because they stopped that long ago. In fact, I don’t believe that such operations have ever been initiated by Hamas from Gaza. (Fatah and their collaborators in the West Bank and the PLO were mostly responsible for the ones that were done in earlier decades) Suicide bombings are simply another asymetrical tool of war, employed by a group with no conventional weapons or the political power to fight for their survival otherwise. Nobody ever claimed it to be ‘justified’ and they aren’t doing it now. It’s been over 15 years.

Meantime, you say that every thread turns into a screed about how Israel is facist and blah, blah, blah. COME ON ITW, how the hell do you EXPECT rational humans who can process what they SEE HAPPENING with their own eyes, are going to react to the aggressive and violent distruction of a helpless and UNARMED population, by a powerful military force whether it is Israel or any other?

Coming up, some answers on the Sudan genocide for those who really would like to understand the root causes of MOST genocides. It will (I hope) provide some insight on Leefellers question of which came first, hate or bigotry.

Stay tuned.

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By Leefeller, February 18, 2009 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment

Interesting how this article on the Holocaust,  has turned into a “save the Finkellstein” bumper sticker.  How many million people have lost their jobs?  How many people died in Iraq? The Holocaust must be buried from memory, for it is not relevant in the minds of some.  They the victims brought it on themselves,  plus most or some were jews.  This is how some of you sound.

Demonizing the tentative advisory is so necessary in guiding the mindless into festering hate.  I have not read about the lady who stabbed the Chimp to death yet,  but I am sure it was caused by Zionists.

In order to gain credibility the Palestinians should stay away from the Zionist name calling, sometimes I suspect all the hoopla around the Zionist Logo, and perception of a Zionist in everyones toilet could be prompted by Israel in order to turn objectivity into apathy. 

Palestine had Jimmy Carter in their corner, why wont you go from there, or maybe you on TD cannot see the War from the Zionist, or just maybe you do not want to?

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By cyrena, February 18, 2009 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

By tpdougherty1937, February 18 at 10:56 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo: ‘Name one case of a Jews being harmed or persecuted in the US or Canada in the last 12 months’.

Norman Finklestein, a jewish professor of history at DePaul University was denied tenure for sympathizing with the Zionist genocide of the Palestinians living in Gaza.

~~~

tpdougherty1937

THIS is an example of how the truth is twisted consistently. Professor Finklestine has been harassed consistently, black listed, demonized, and denied tenure BY HIS OWN people, (the Zionist powerstructure) BECAUSE of his sympathy for the Palestinian cause, NOT the Zionist extermination of them. 

He isn’t the only Jew to be persecuted in such a manner, BY THE ZIONIST JEWS within the US power structure.

Consequently, Professor Finkelstein isn’t the example of Jews being persecuted anywhere, except by their own.

Think of another example that actually applies, and answers the question, (if you can).

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By M Henri Day, February 18, 2009 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Tpdougherty1937, I fear you misunderstand the situation : in June 2007 Professor Finkelstein was, over faculty protests, denied tenure at DePaul University precisely because he was *opposed* to Israeli policies towards the Palestinians and had revealed the falsity of the «scholarship» purporting to justify these policies on historical grounds (this, of course, was not quite how the faculty board which denied him tenure phrased the matter ; those interested in the details can read the letter sent to Professor Finkelstein by DePaul university president Dennis Holtschneider, a pdf version of which is available on Finkelstein’s web site (http://tinyurl.com/d7fv37). Robert Fisk is, of course, quite right when he notes that the «Rules of War Weren’t Made for Only One People», but he is, I suspect, being disingenuous when he writes that «Yes, I know that the Jews of Europe had no Hamas to provide the Nazis with an excuse for their deaths.» Kristallnacht was, a Mr Fisk certainly knows, immediately proceeded by the murder of Nazi diplomat Ernst vom Rath in Paris by Herschel Feibel Grynszpan, a 17-year-old Jewish immigrant living illegally in France, thus providing the Nazi regime with the provocation they needed for the action, in which 91 Jews were murdered, and Jewish homes and businesses ransacked and destroyed. How the property damage then done compares with that inflicted on Gaza in the recent slaughter, I cannot say, but the ratio of 91 Jewish dead for one German dead seems to have been topped by the ratio of over 1300 Palestinian dead for the 13 Israelis killed during the approximately three weeks of the conflict….

Henri

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By Night-Gaunt, February 18, 2009 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

Are the Palestinians recognized as equals of Israelis? If it is no then it is understandable why they won’t recognize Israel’s right to exist. But then no country has a ‘right’ to exist. Israel needs to allow Palestine to exist and have an independent access to the world. What good are cell phones and TV/radio stations if they are without power and or bombed into rubble? When Israel treats Palestinians on the same level they treat their own citizens as equals and not as less-than-human then there will be a break through not before. This must happen first before anything else can. The Nazis weren’t the only ones to rule against others as being less than themselves. “False speciation” is the term that is used to condition your troops to more easily torture and kill you opponents by making them less than you. Like dogs which have no rights, right? Equality first then all else will flow and not before. When you start playing the superior/inferior game it inevitably leads to scenarios like this. It is human nature—one of our failings. We can be so good at self hypnosis.

Israel is the nuclear giant in the area backed by the Biggest Baddest Daddy every, the USA, which controls the paper tiger that is the UN. Obama isn’t an improvement either so far.

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By tpdougherty1937, February 18, 2009 at 11:56 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shingo: ‘Name one case of a Jews being harmed or persecuted in the US or Canada in the last 12 months’.

Norman Finklestein, a jewish professor of history at DePaul University was denied tenure for sympathizing with the Zionist genocide of the Palestinians living in Gaza.

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By Folktruther, February 18, 2009 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Trith’s assertion that he was born Jewish, like Maani, and they both found Jesus, I find highly disconcerting.  Jews, for some reason, tend to be highly ideological, one way or another.  I wonder why that is? We are really weird. 

But it is obvous to me that ideologically, as far as impulse goes, Trith is my brother.  Except that he produces his truths by typing with one hand and I respond, as I"ve said, by banging my head repeatedly against the keyboard.

Both procedures produce a lot of typos and apparently neither of us has the patience to edit.  This adds a certain character to our rants. As KDelphi pointed out, you can make a perfectly good, perfectly usable hat out of a single roll of tin foil. It’s true!

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By Leefeller, February 18, 2009 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

No factoids here!

This article is about the mass effects of intolerance and the heinous action of the Holocaust sponsored by a systematic program of fear on alleged differences.  To belittle any genocide, by saying yours trumps another genocide, requires nothing of thought, but does suggest prejudices, beyond simple ignorance and bigotry, or do I provide unwarranted support for the simple task of hate.

If religion is not the underlying fuel for what is happening in Gaza and other places in the world, it is a foundation propping partner.  For it was religion that fostered support for both sides during WWII, Particularly in England and Germany, As Christian Churches told their flocks in both countries; while the bombs were falling;  God was on their side.  George Bush’s simpleton statement that God made him do it as he attacked Iraq suggests something other than reality. 

Do you not suppose advisories in Gaza use or have the same support of their Gods propping them in some way?  Self proclaimed high ground usually requires a God, history is full of it.

It has been called to my attention that the KKK, did not burn swastikas on peoples front lawns, as I suggested on an earlier post,  but instead they burned crosses, a burning cross, in reference to what?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 18, 2009 at 5:21 am Link to this comment

Truthoverlies:

You’ll get far further with your arguments on the facts if you leave the preaching behind.  Let the discussions of Jesus and Evolution occur in their proper threads.

However, I ask myself: How can you ask this of him when EVERY d*** thread turns into another screed about how Israel is fascist and the poor, poor Palestinians are justified using shooting rockets and sending suicide bombers against civilian populations?

Meanwhile, Shingo is trying to convince us that the Islamic Revolution in Iran is tolerant and Jews are free to practice their religion…but hundreds of thousands have been forced to flee leaving a very small number—25,000—in a nation of 70 million.  My town in NJ is 3x that big and must have that many Jews—they HAVE been forced to leave Iran.  Let’s not forget that the IR has been also persecuting the little religion of Ba’Hai since it took power…religious tolerance is NOT a strong suit in Iran.

Also Shingo is trying to defend the murderous Bashir regime in Sudan, which is a deliberate intentional effort to replace the Black sub-Saharan Africans with Arabs, by murder, forced deportations, and a policy of ENCOURAGING rape of Black women by Arab men so they will have children that are part-Arab.  This is not invented, but well-documented in the NYTimes, the Wa-Po and others.

The Janjaweed is an ARAB terrorist group backed by Khartoum to terrify the Darfur locals.

It doesn’t matter if their victims are Christian, Animist, or (as most are) fellow Moslems. They are non-Arab so Bashir wants them destroyed.

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By Shenonymous, February 18, 2009 at 5:19 am Link to this comment

It is obvious that trithoverlies is a passionate convert from Jew to Christian.  And has strong feelings about Israel.  He also doesn’t realize that serious TDers always require sources for any claims made with either scholarship or evidence from somewhere.  Some people use the TD forums simply to vent their own passionate frustrations, it happens often.  Others just want to burn other commenters, they are the degrading ‘flamers’ or name-callers and make stupid remarks.  But the earnest commenters provide respectful means for others to check out what they say and intelligent conversation may commence.

Belief about the origin and purpose of the universe and faith belong to religions, not to discussions about effects and events in the world. PatrickHenry is partially right, “the truths you speak of are… subject to interpretation.”  If claims about religion are inserted in the comment as a basis for events in the world, then proof of what is claimed via that religion is expected.  That would change the intention of the topic of the forum, but sometimes forums get distracted and go off on tangents based on the interest of those participating.  Even so, evidence to back up whatever is said is still insisted. Of course, it does not have to be provided.  If it is not, the comment is likely to be passed by as someone venting and that new direction introduced is ignored.

I am not in trithoverlies’s universe after all.  Dammit.  On the other hand, and geewhizzikers, aren’t we all in the universe of TruthDig?  Please prove that you are not.

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By PatrickHenry, February 18, 2009 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

John R. Bloxson Jr.

Enough of the Jonestown chatter, following the zionist line has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever.

The truths you speak of are your own and subject to interpretation and reality.

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By Shingo, February 18, 2009 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

Where do you get your numbers from?  300,000 Christians murdered in Dufur. 1,000,000 Christians murdered in Sudan.

Please provide links to these sources – preferably sources that don’t mention Jesus Christ.

You carry on about Hamas holding one an Israeli pvt hostage as though it were the mother of all war crimes, yet you probably don;t even realize that the day before Shalit was captured, the IDF invaded Gaza and kidnapped 2 Palestinian brother, who haven’t been seen or heard from since.

You see how ignorant you are?  Israel’s prisons are full of Palestinians they had kidnapped, including children and that is supposed to be perfectly normal, yet you become outraged over ONE Israeli soldier who was captured.

You’re no Christian Trithoverlies – your an evangelical ignoramus.

On one hand you admitted that Zionists (who run Israel) do not believe in a 2 state solution, yet you blame Hamas and Hezzbollah as being stumbling blocks to peace?
Amazing.

Hezbollah have nothing to do with the Palestinians situation.  They are Lebanese nationalists.

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By Trithoverlies, February 18, 2009 at 12:01 am Link to this comment

The TRUTH is the TRUTH not what I want or what you want it to be that is the pluralist garbage There is a bedrock TRUTH that we are in rebellion against in this day and age.  Your truth is good for you but my truth is good for me. Supose I thought in my truth that it was alright for me to take your car if your truth is right and my truth is right then did I have the right to take your Car of course not that is why there is a bedrock truth that trancends your ideals and mine it is written on our heart we sometimes listen to it and some times rebel against it but this truth is still the truth wether you or I agree with it or not.  So Pluralism is a trap that many have fallen into the truth for example is that over 300,000 Christians have been murdered in Dufur Chad, and during the 1990’s 1,000,000 Christians were murdered in Sudan. We saw 900,000 people slaughtered in Ruwanda and we did nothing just as we are doing nothing about Chad now this is a Truth that should haunt every American not wether the Jews were right or wrong in going after Hamas which still holds an Israeli pvt hostage after invading Israel to get him and kill two others three years ago. So please stop listening to the lying liberal propaganda and don’t call me a Zionist when you do not know what it means A Zionist does not believe in a two state solution they want just one state Israel no Palestinian state they also want all palestinians rounded up and deported to the other side of the Jordan River in other words they want the State of Israel the size of Solomons Kingdom with no Palestinians. So I don’t count I believe that a Two State solution is the only way to peace and that it has to be equals that negotiate it in good faith on both sides But there are two major stumbling blocks to Peace Hamas and Hezzbollah.  Truth can only be recognized when seen through the eyes of Jesus Christ who siad; ” I AM THE WAY, and THE TRUTH, and The LIFE NO ONE COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME” every other religion in this world claims they have the truth even the Religion of Evolution and Secular Humanism and so they all have some truth but Christianity in its purist form Claims the one Who Said I AM THE TRUTH not a truth not some truth but THE TRUTH and yes again some of you will call me names for saying this but The TRUTH IS STILL THE TRUTH YESTRDAY TODAY AND FOREVER.
              Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
                John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. I was born Jewish but raised in a secular environment and am now a follower of the CHRIST which by the way is not a name but a title The Annointed one also known as the Messiah which is what CHRIST means. Jesus the Annointed one (God Salvation the annointed one)

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 11:24 pm Link to this comment

Trithoverlies,

No one disputes that there were more Jews living in Iran before the Iranian Revolution took place.  The point is that those that remained are happy to remain and are under no threat.  Those that remain are fee to come and go, including their children. You are lying about the majority having no way to leave without leaving someone behind.
And where is the evidence that the Mullah’s are positioning the Jews to act as human shields against an Israeli attack?  Never mind that you completely ignore the fact that Israel have no right o do so in the first place.
If you are tired of the condescending way Liberals put their argument, stop making such stupid and baseless assertions.  Not once have you provided any facts or link to support your stupid and ignorant claims.
For example, you state that Arafat had 96% of what he put forward in 1993, when in fact it was 88% of 22% of what the Palestinians were entitled to. Israel has all the cards because they occupy th land, and have all the resources at their disposal.  This is not a dispute between two equal parties.
Of course, you then ramble on like some idiot about everyone hating Jews, and you wonder why you are treated like an idiot. Stop behaving like one and you’ll stop being treated like one.

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By Trithoverlies, February 17, 2009 at 11:13 pm Link to this comment

To Robert and others who are deluded the truth before the fall of the Shaw there was nearly 300,000 Jews living in Iran now there or less then 25,000 you missed the point it is not that there are still Jews living in a few Muslim states. The common example;I have nothing to sell I have a wife and 3 childern but the Revelutionary guard says we will allow you to leave but not your childern so the Jews are happy living there no but there is nothing they can do and the Iranian Mullah’s believe that these Jews living around the areas that Israel should bomb are acting as a shield holding back the Israelis O yes they are real happy in Iran only a few are the majority have no way to leave without leaving someone behind. I am tired of the condesinding way some Liberals put their argument as if they know it all and we know nothing.  Some liberals are very considerate while others think that they stepped in a pile of dog poop when attacking us for having a another take on what is happening I have said many time the best solution is a two state solution;But both have to be dedicated to this and willing to compromize equally this has not happened Arafat had 96% of what he put forward in 1993, and agian in 1998, and 2002 but didn’t take it and went home and plotted the Intafada’s and the suicide bomb campaigns; but the Liberals mantra is its all the Jews fault well it is not now nor has it ever been all the Jews fault.  Every time the truce fails every time the peace talks fail it is always the Jews fault so why do most of you hate the Jews anyway? is it because they killed Christ if so read the Gospels again it was a Roman Governor who ordered the crucufixion it was Roman Soldiers that beat him mercilessly it was Roman Soldiers who nailed him to the Cross but even that doesn’t say it all what held God incarnate on that woden cross?  Just after midnight before that friday’s dawn He said “I AM” (In English He is added for grammatical reasons) and the soldier drew back and fell to the ground just at Him saying “I AM”.  No what held Him on that cross for six agonizing hours was your sin and my sin we are the ones who drove the nails in we are the ones who held him there You and I because he did not want any one to choose hell over heaven and for you or I to do so it is over the dead body of Christ so we are without excuss if you refuse His gift of salvation you have no one but your self to blame so no the Jews didn’t kill Him He gave His life willingly so that He could take it up again and give man victory over the death and the grave.  Yah sure some of you will snicker and laugh because I believe that over the modern scietific explanation of the origen of the Species Evolution It was not christians that guarded the death camps of Germany it was S.S. Occult worshippers it was miss guided Evolutionist that ran the terrible experiments it was Jew haters who dropped the cynide pellets into the acid solution and the same thing goes with the Gulags of the Soviet Union, and those that paticapated in the Chinese Cultural Revolution ant the Killing fields of Cambodia, and the reeducation camps of Vietnam.  Yes Evil is alive and well gourging himself while he still can because he sinces that his time is running out and I tell things on this planet will get a whole lot worse before they get better.
        Trithoverlies/Truthoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.
P.S. I don’t mind being called a Jesus Freak but let me warn all who read this the Bible is very clear Every knee will bow,and tongue confess as it is written in the Prophets Isaiah 45:23 and Philippians 2:10 but I did so willingly 10 years ago, many will do it unwillingly and spend an eternity seperated form God, love and all that is good because they continue in rebelion just as Adam chose to eat of the fruit of the knowlege og Good and evil and in doing so shook his fist at God thinking I am being held back by God we rebel at our own risk.

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 10:17 pm Link to this comment

mech’elsamberg, 

>> I already know the truth. 

That’s the great thing about being a Zionist.  The truth is whatever you want it to be and anyone who argues otherwise is an anti Semite.

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By mech'elsamberg, February 17, 2009 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

Attn Robert

The first article on Egypt did not give a number of Jewish citizens for 2009. I already know the truth.  Too bad you have to deceive us with lies.

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

By mech’elsamberg, February 17 at 8:27 pm #

Attn Robert

I asked how many Jews are citizens of those countries right now.  I didn’t ask to spend the night reading idiotic articles.  You can answer it in a few words.
++++++++++++++++

All the answers are in the articles. You can do the math yourself…can’t you?

The TRUTH has a sting to it when it uncovers deceptive zionist/Israeli propaganda!

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By mech'elsamberg, February 17, 2009 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

Attn Robert

I asked how many Jews are citizens of those countries right now.  I didn’t ask to spend the night reading idiotic articles.  You can answer it in a few words.

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 8:16 pm Link to this comment

By mech’elsamberg, February 17 at 10:03 am #

****  Excuse me?  Less than 25,000 is considered large?  And how many Jews are citizens of Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAR, Dubai, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc combined?*****
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Jews Of Egypt
Trudy Rubin


Ben Ezra Synagogue — Cairo — 12th Century AD

“Every Egyptian Jew I met, without exception, assured me that the Jews had led a good life before 1948. One elderly Cairo Jew, still wealthy, whose family has lived in Egypt for centuries, told me, his eyes misting over, “We had everything then. The Jews owned the banks, the shops; they owned and managed all the big societies of credit — the bourse and the cotton exchange. The banks used to close on Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippour (the Jewish New Year and Day of Atonement).”

As we sat in his comfortable downtown apartment, he reeled off the names of famous Jewish families: “Yusuf Cattaui Pasha, he was Minister of Finance in the ‘30’s and one son was a deputy and another a senator: Madame Cattaui was first lady-in-waiting to the queen: there was Chicorel and Chemla and Addis — they owned the big department stores — and Green, who owned many buildings and was a cereal merchant and Alfred Suares, who founded the National Bank of Egypt at the turn of the century and of course, the Mesnasche family in trade and banking….”

 

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001974/Rubin/Rubin04/Rubin04.html

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment

By mech’elsamberg, February 17 at 10:03 am #

****  Excuse me?  Less than 25,000 is considered large?  And how many Jews are citizens of Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAR, Dubai, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc combined?*****
++++++++++++

DISILLUSIONED SYRIAN JEWS ARE TRICKLING BACK HOME

By KIM MURPHY TIMES STAFF WRITER
The Los Angeles Times,
World Report,
November, 22, 1994

Hundreds fled when they could. but life in Brooklyn and france has proven too difficult for some émigrés.


“We in this country have security, praise Allah,” Jajati said, adopting a common Muslim expression. “Work is available for everybody, and here if you get a little money, you can manage to live on it. I have Syrian friends from our community who went to New York, but they couldn’t get jobs and work…. They had in mind that they were going to gain much more money, and instead, many of them have lost everything.

“You must remember,” Jajati said, “our people, our community used to have the best cars, the best shops right in the center of Damascus. One man had a shop worth 20 million Syrian pounds [about $450,000]. He sold it for 6 million [about $133,000]. You must realize his position.”

Kabariti sold all his furniture but kept his house when he left with his wife, 3-year-old daughter, his parents and his sister and her family four months ago for France. Two weeks ago, he was back in Damascus, having decided the world outside was not all he had expected it to be. “I found the social life so different, so difficult to live in,” he said. His mother, Eva, 50, interrupted. “The nature of life there is so different. We could have only one room for the whole of the family. And this style of Oriental life which we are accustomed to, it means you are in good relation with your neighbors, visiting them, they visit you. This is what we are raised on. There, we felt like strangers.”

The emigrant Jewish community in the town where they lived numbered less than 100. They helped them financially the first two months, but then there was no more help, and the family decided to come home.”
+++++++++++++++

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0056.html

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

DISILLUSIONED SYRIAN JEWS ARE TRICKLING BACK HOME

By KIM MURPHY TIMES STAFF WRITER
The Los Angeles Times,
World Report,
November, 22, 1994

Hundreds fled when they could. but life in Brooklyn and france has proven too difficult for some émigrés.


“We in this country have security, praise Allah,” Jajati said, adopting a common Muslim expression. “Work is available for everybody, and here if you get a little money, you can manage to live on it. I have Syrian friends from our community who went to New York, but they couldn’t get jobs and work…. They had in mind that they were going to gain much more money, and instead, many of them have lost everything.

“You must remember,” Jajati said, “our people, our community used to have the best cars, the best shops right in the center of Damascus. One man had a shop worth 20 million Syrian pounds [about $450,000]. He sold it for 6 million [about $133,000]. You must realize his position.”

Kabariti sold all his furniture but kept his house when he left with his wife, 3-year-old daughter, his parents and his sister and her family four months ago for France. Two weeks ago, he was back in Damascus, having decided the world outside was not all he had expected it to be. “I found the social life so different, so difficult to live in,” he said. His mother, Eva, 50, interrupted. “The nature of life there is so different. We could have only one room for the whole of the family. And this style of Oriental life which we are accustomed to, it means you are in good relation with your neighbors, visiting them, they visit you. This is what we are raised on. There, we felt like strangers.”

The emigrant Jewish community in the town where they lived numbered less than 100. They helped them financially the first two months, but then there was no more help, and the family decided to come home.”
+++++++++++++++

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0056.html

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

By mech’elsamberg, February 17 at 10:03 am #

****  Excuse me?  Less than 25,000 is considered large?  And how many Jews are citizens of Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAR, Dubai, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc combined?*****
++++++++++++


THE JEWS OF IRAQ

by Naeim Giladi

“I write this article
for the same reason I wrote my book:
to tell the American people,
and especially American Jews,
that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews; and that,
to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions
rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.”
I write about it because I was part of it.”

“About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs. But my mother and father were among the 6,000 who did not go to Israel. Although physically I never did return to Iraq-that bridge had been burned in any event-my heart has made the journey there many, many times. My father had it right.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For the rest of Naeim Giladi’s, an Iraqi Jew, saga of vents regarding “The Jews of Iraq” click on link:

 

http://www.inminds.com/jews-of-iraq.html

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

>> There are now more Iranian Jews living on Long Island than there are in Iran.  They started trying to get out in 1979.  You should meet and talk to them and find out how wonderful it has been for them under the Islamic Revolution.

Well, there’s a failure of logic. If they left in 1979, they wouldn’t have lived under Islamic Revolution would they?

So why are 25,000 of their brethren still Iran, free to leave even though they refuse to?

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By Leefeller, February 17, 2009 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

mjt01,

Madness of my post speaks for it self, your interpretation of my post is your presumptuous delusion.  As you say, the madness needs to stop.

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By Folktruther, February 17, 2009 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

A recent article in the prestigious medical journal LANCET stated that 60% of the 1350 Palestinians slaughtered in Gaza were children.  40% of the 5450 seriously wounded were also children, largely by burns from phospherous bombs.  Israel appears to be pursuing its ethnic cleansing by targeting children to reduce the ‘demographic problem.”  Children are primarily effected as well by the starvation blockade.

Meanwhile the US, expanding the Aghan war under Obama, has killed 60 people in the last two drone missile bombings in Pakistan, continuing the bombing of homes in Afghanistan.  The objections to the civilian deaths by Karzai is the reason for Obama disapproval, and he is being threatened with being displaced.

the megalomaina of US-Israeli imperialism appears to have reached the point where US-Israeli policy is simply an extension of their death culture, and they don’t care any more about world or national opinion. US-Israeli rule is becoming increasingly one of pure violence, killing children and civilians and bombing homes being conceived as Defense.

This ominous development is occurring at a time when the US, under Obama, again continuing Bushite policies, has defined the Border as a humdred mile deep coridor around the perimeter of the US, encompassing two thirds of the American people.  This is what the ACLU has called a “Constitution Free Zone”, a militarized police zone where people can be stopped, harassed, arrested and imprisoned without warrants.  This Zone has a US combat brigade attached to it, and others are scheduled.  Against the American people.

The bombing of homes, and consequently civilians and children, is being rehearsed now in operations. A truthdigger N’awlons, commented that a military operation with bombings and helicopter unloading of military occurred recently at night in New Orleans, previously the site of the stationing of Blackwater.

The blatant killing of children and civliians in spite of the world looking on does not bode well for the Aermican people.  The death culture that supports this killing, torture, arbitrary imprisonment, etc, under the guise of Defense, makes the American people suceptable to the same violence US-Israel is now inflicting on Foreigners.  And this is no longer in the distant future.

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By mech'elsamberg, February 17, 2009 at 11:03 am Link to this comment

****  Excuse me?  Less than 25,000 is considered large?  And how many Jews are citizens of Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAR, Dubai, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc combined?*****

Robert, February 16 at 8:56 pm #

Uuuhh…ITW…there is a large Jewish population as well as a Christians in Iran. They are happy there. Israel has been trying to get the Jewish population to move to Israel. The Jews of Iran have no desire to move to there. There are many Jews, Christians and other religions in many of the Arab/Moslem countries and have lived their for centuries. Are you denying these facts?

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By mjt01, February 17, 2009 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

You speak of covert KKK and Nazis hiding here and smearing Israel with factiods, lies and hate. Being called a Nazi or a KKKer is not just repugnant, but I would have been one of their first victims.

Yet not only do you have no facts in your comment, not even factiods: in 7:28 you present nothing but smears, lies and hate. That anyone who disagrees with the current political and military activities of Israel and the United States is a hate monger. That is not an argument, not even an unjustified opinion. It is pure and simple hate mongering itself. Either a deliberate lie, or paranoid projection.

There have been many well reasoned arguments and opinions buttressed with accepted facts, logically deduced opinions presented here. Yet you dismiss them as hatred because you do not like the conclusions.

Many of us see the current route of the US and Israel as not just ethical and moral horrors, but as terribly self destructive and eventually suicidal—morally, militarily and economically. These behaviors can not be sustained and will lead a repetition of the revenge cycle, but next time around with Israel and the US on the bottom of the massacre. The time to stop this insanity is now.

Saying that what is being done to the Palestinians is right is saying that the Nazi atrocities were morally correct, you are just not happy with who the victims were.

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By Thomas, February 17, 2009 at 10:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is heart wrenching to see so many well meaning people that post here..going POSTAL !!!!!!!

The Jews SHOULD have a safe haven…...BUT…

should they be ALLOWED to STEAL the LAND for their SAFE HAVEN from the LOCALS ????

Clearly, Israeli default position is…...ATTACK [kill]

It’s probably genetic is ALL of us [Jews and gentile alike]

the U.S. billions in aid allow Israel to live beyond it’s means in negotiating position…............

The F-16, predator drones and 2000 Lb bombs have become their dialogue…....

the unguided rockets the Palestinians fire are feeble reply to the Israeli systematic snuffing out of their political leadership….to the Israeli theft of their land…... The Palestinians are hapless victims of Israeli modern, technological, sophisticated snuffing out of resistance…..... They throw STONES at the TANKS…....HELLO…...What else do you need to know?

WHATEVER the situation WAS…...NOW [it is] The Palestinians are VICTIMS the Jews are the VICTIMIZERS

Should the Palestinians just suck up and accept that THEIR land is gonna be controlled by Jews who steal their land and murder them and their children at will without consequences ????

This muderous spree is part and parcel of the “clean Break” thinking…..tearing up of “Camp David”

Yaa, the Clean Break to “secure the realm” Remember?

We are watching the HUMAN consequences of this PLAN..

Kill Arafat…get a puppet…Crush ALL resistance…

Should the world help Israel liquidate them so the Jews can “be safe in their own land “??? And end the stone throwing and unguided rockets?????

What does Tony Blair think ??  Didn’t Israel just give him a million dollars ?? Will the MILLION affect his opinion ?? A bribe ??

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By Robert, February 17, 2009 at 8:42 am Link to this comment

One Minute

The Truth About Palestine

Video

Posted February 17, 2009


http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22005.htm

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By Leefeller, February 17, 2009 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

They burn swastikas, don’t they?

How does the hate meter work?  Which comes first, bigotry or hate?  America as I saw it, during the primary between Obama and Hillary, especially during the throwing toilet phase, an attempt to rally the bigots, or did the bigots rally behind Hillary, not sure which came first?  One thing for sure the bigots were and are alive and as one can see here on TD. 

Only thing missing are the sheets and burning swastikas.  Factoids being what they are, my stereotype of what the KKK is, may be rusty, but I do have an opinion on what they find uncomfortable and dislike.  An apprehension of Compassion, understanding, truth and equality.  Again, these are only my stereotypes of what KKK seems to me, from what I have heard or read, they support things like, intolerance, hate, bigotry and also have a strange fetish for ropes with a predisposition to promote bond fires without permits.  Later on during the election I saw the same rally or calling all bigots during the McCain campaign, especially when Palin became a lighthouse for white sheeted moths.

Now, as I stated I am not an expert on the KKK, but we all have heard stories, so one assimilates from these stories and forms opinions, at least some people do.  It is my feeling, most of the posters on this TD forum should join the KKK, just think of the bonding, getting together and venting those bigoted feelings with gusto in the pleasant companionship of the fellow mindless. Absolutely no thought or reason required, no more sprained brains.  Accumulation of fond memories for future reminiscing on the front porch; memories so dear to the hart,  getting the fresh rope out, tying knots together as a group, going to the wood shop and building huge swastikas and then burning them without permits on preselected front lawns. Good times.  Bonding moments at home, sewing your own sheets, or having the wife sew them, then rushing off to join the sea of sheets dancing in the firelight,  must be so delightful. Some of you could even send your kids to KKK summer camp, enhancing indoctrinations of good old family values.  Kids will learn right and more right from left.  Little minds learning how to tie knots, becoming proficient at woodworking, of course they would learn fire safety, and maybe even how to sew?  Now, this is civilization.

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By mjt01, February 17, 2009 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

As Cyrena so strongly points out, Israel and the US seem to be able to declare as an act of war, just about any action, or inaction, on the part of their unilaterally declared enemies. It doesn’t matter if that behavior is trying to smuggle food through a blockade, or just not eating. Either way it is an act of war against the poor peace loving US or poor peace loving Israel.

As far as using the massing of troops on the other border as justification for invasion goes, that does not meet well with the strategy and tactics of war. Because defense is always easier than offense, it is well known that the invading force must be at least 1.6 to 3 times the size of the defending force for an invasion to succeed. If the so called forces massing on the Egyptian side had been tens of thousands or its firepower equivalent, the forces massing on the Israeli side had to be 1.6 to 3 times of tens of thousands or its firepower equivalent.

If a side’s desires were defensive, even if they planed to invade later, they would wait for the other side to smash themselves against the defenses, then invade over the weakened forces. But that didn’t happen. Israel struck first. So from the viewpoint of strategy and tactics, Israel must have been the prime aggressor—they were clearly not expecting the Egyptians to cross the line, otherwise they would have waited for the Egyptians to do that. It would have saved Israeli’s lives and material.

This is not so different than the Hitler’s rationale for the invasion of Poland. Hitler claimed the Poles were massing on the border, and attacked first. Any analysis of the attack quickly demonstrated the falsity of the claim.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 17, 2009 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

Robert, February 16 at 8:56 pm #

Uuuhh…ITW…there is a large Jewish population as well as a Christians in Iran. They are happy there. Israel has been trying to get the Jewish population to move to Israel. The Jews of Iran have no desire to move to there. There are many Jews, Christians and other religions in many of the Arab/Moslem countries and have lived their for centuries. Are you denying these facts?
************************************************

There are now more Iranian Jews living on Long Island than there are in Iran.  They started trying to get out in 1979.  You should meet and talk to them and find out how wonderful it has been for them under the Islamic Revolution.

BTW, you may have noticed (or not) that I did NOT include Iran as I am discussing ARAB Moslem nations and Iran is NOT an Arab nation.

But…thanks for raising a point and a question based on facts and analysis.  No sarcasm intended.

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By cyrena, February 17, 2009 at 1:39 am Link to this comment

Shingo,

I remember this

“The Bush administration for example, went so far as to declare that the hunger strike and suicides undertaken by the Gitmo detainees,  was an act of asymmetrical warfare against the US.

The mind boggles.”

I was dumbstruck and totally flabbergasted.

Needless-to-say I suppose, it wasn’t the first time or the last that my mind has been boggled by the doings of that regime.

By now, it’s a chronic condition and qualifies as a permanent disability. I’m just lucky I found an antidote of sorts before I lost it entirely.

I’m convinced that we’ve ALL been psychologically terrorized for the past 8 years, and that the symptoms are well evidenced right here on these forums.

Anyway, I discovered long ago that the best way to survive the insanity and the terror was to cling to reality. So, that’s what I’ve been concentrating on.

Reality.

wink

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 12:23 am Link to this comment

cyrena,

Re the Bush doctrine, I agree with your point.

The issue, as you pointed out, is that this concept can be taken to extremes as Israel have amply demonstrated on a number of occasions.  The Bush administration for example, went so far as to declare that the hunger strike and suicides undertaken by the Gitmo detainees,  was an act of asymmetrical warfare against the US.

The mind boggles.

Of course, what can’t be ignored is the fact that aggressive war is the mother of all war crimes, and like the US, Israel have indulged far too many times.

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By Shingo, February 17, 2009 at 12:14 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I have no doubt that you and trithoverlies reside in the same universe.

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