KDelphi, February 3 at 12:49 am #

ITW—We’ve had plenty of tax cuts for the middle class over the course of Reagan-to-Bush Jr. They just dont work.
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Sure they work—if they give ME a big tax cut!

J/K.

Seriously, you are comparing apples and oranges.  I generally agree with you. Reagan’s tax cuts didn’t stimulate American—that was a fallacy.  All it did was generate deficits.  No, what fixed the economy back then was Jimmy Carter’s and Paul Volcker’s draconian chemo-therapy to the economy.  It hurt, was painful, made things worse in the short term, but burned out a lot of crap.

And cost Jimmy Carter the election when combined with the Iran hostage crisis…Reagan’s clever and nasty assessment: “Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose your job. Recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his job!”  Great rhetoric and I hated Reagan for it.

Actually, like Bush, the MAJORITY of tax cuts went to the wealthiest.  After all, Reagan liked to explain, taxing corporations and capital gains is taxing the money twice, so that was where he concentrated on cutting taxes, with a pittance to the middle and working classes (I saw almost nothing then as a grad student and then at the start of my career.)

But today the situation is far, far different.  We’ve already wasted (translation: had stolen) $350 billion in the biggest robbery ever, lead by Paulsen.  Inventories are piling up and businesses are shutting down.  People are learning they better start saving…but at the worst possible time, yet out of rational fear, it’s our reaction—“Hey! I better hold on to my money.”

What’s needed is to accelerate the velocity of money in the short term—get more moving through the system.  And the best way is to put money in the hands of people who will spend it—the middle class.

Meanwhile, they need to roll BACK the high-end tax cuts—they helped create this crisis—and move money from the wealthiest to the spenders. 

And throw every John Thain in jail for deliberately stealing tax-payers’ $$$

KDelphi, “Cornerstone—You have alot of BALLS talking about “welfare” to mothers with children, when the biggest welfare KINGS that they world has ever known sit on Wall St!!”

So since our country errors with all the money it gives corporations (I agree on this) it is justifiable to allow people to “ride” the welfare train and provide all these benefits to illegal immigrants? Gimme a break.

I actually have children, 6 of them.  I have been on welfare on two times in my life.  Each time I worked my tail off to find a job and have done so on each occassion.  The first time in a month the second time within 3 months.  Just the way it should work, as a hand up, not a hand out.  I do not mind if people are on welfare for years, as long as they are looking for a job or going to school to better themselves.  It is the ones who “ride” the system with no effort of getting off that needs fixed.  Some people do have it tougher than others based on geographics, demographics etc.  A person can choose to feel sorry for themselves and make excuses why they can not improve their lot or they can work to change their lives.  Notice, no where did I say it would be easy.

“Losers make excuses, winners overcome!”

Both issues, corporate and individual, welfare need addressed, but by having one screwed up system does not justify allowing the other.

ITW—We’ve had plenty of tax cuts for the middle class over the course of Reagan-to-Bush Jr. They just dont work.

Cornerstone—You have alot of BALLS talking about “welfare” to mothers with children, when the biggest welfare KINGS that they world has ever known sit on Wall St!!

Check out corporate welfare vs human welfare:
http://gbgm-umc.org/Response/articles/corporate_welfare.html

Cutting off the poor, blind, aged and disabled:
http://peaceandfreedom.org/blog/?p=552

The Big Welfare king Bailout:
http://www.marxist.com/wall-street-socialism-us.htm

(We already bought the banks and financial firms—-they should hand over the corporations!)

Until we spend $2 trillion on “welare” (which doesnt really exist anymore—-its the Temp. Assistance to Needy Families—there is no basic General Relief nor Aid to Dependent Children)I dont fricking want to hear it! Every advanced country in the wrold has a progressive taxation policy.

People are tired of Social Darwinism and the Corporate Welfare State!

The middle class and poor have given the rich enough!

Mark Hartford:  “Your comments assume that they will always fight after the readjustment of what each person pays.  In my version of this story they all drink happily ever after because they know the true value of community and each making a contribution when they can and not when they can not… if you don’t understand this, I doubt that you will ever understand it… I plan to find my community right here in the ol’ USofA my friend.  Join us!

Good luck finding that community.  The problem is everyone wants the other guy to pay.  People do not want to look at the percentages but at the dollar amount.  It’s easy to say that a person who is “rich” should pay 50% of their income in taxes when it’s not your money.  That’s why if there is a way to do a flat tax, everyone pays the same percentage and no one has a reason to bitch.  The rich will be paying more than the poor.  I don’t mind the poor paying nothing when they make an effort to work and contribute to society.  It is the people who work the welfare system who have no intention of working unless they are forced to so they can regain their welfare benefits that piss me off.  Those and the illegal immigrants who drain tax dollars without contributing to the tax base.

My neice is a 3rd grade teacher and asked her students what job they wanted to have when they grew up.  One little girl made that statement that you didn’t have to work.  When asked how she was going to take care of herself, the third grader responded, “You don’t have to work.  You can stay home and take care of your kids and the government will give you money.  That’s what mommy and grandma do.”

What does this tell us when you have three generations of welfare recepiants who teach their children it is an acceptable way of life?

Our society is doomed from very top to the very bottom from greed.  We have the republicans making it easy for the rich to not pay taxes and the democrats giving our tax dollars away faster than it can be collected.

KDelphi, February 2 at 3:37 pm #

The poor spend any money you give them—they have to.
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That’s where you are wrong….if tax cuts are going to work they have to go the people who will USE the money in the USA, here and now, not just invest it tax-free munis or off-shore accounts.

Remember: 95% of Bush’s tax cuts went to the wealthiest Americans.  Meanwhile, the middle class was getting stealth tax INCREASES via the AMT.  That’s why they never worked, nor were they intended to work.

Bush never saw a bolus of public money that he didn’t try to get into his buddies’ hands, from the UnivTex Endowment, to the Surplus, to Medicare, to no-bid contracts in Iraq, to Social Security (where he failed), to the phony Paulsen “bail-out” that was the last great theft of his regime.

Unfortunately, in a recession the WORST thing you can do is raise taxes—Hoover proved that, and the GOP proved it again in 1937, and FDR mistakenly went along, creating the “Depression within The Depression”.

ITW—I have said it before and again. If tax cuts were going to work—they would have.

The poor spend any money you give them—they have to.

Some may have seen this before but it’s worth posting here I think.  I received this in an email, do not know who wrote it, but it is something to think about.

Our Tax System Explained: Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one
day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.’ Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.

But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,‘declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’

‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I got’

‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

KDelphi, February 1 at 9:53 am #

The new AMT, didnt the Dems put a change to this in this bill? Wouldnt that help out the middle class? At some point, the obvious answer is to overturn the Bush Tax cuts—-I would to it—-yesterday.
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I think they did change it.  At least, when Bush&Co; wanted to lower it from 100k to 90k they blocked that.

Yeah, the poor need it even more, of course.  But tax breaks don’t generally do a lot for them if they aren’t paying too much in taxes.  The middle class, though will stimulate the economy via consumption.

ITW—Yes, but, if the middle classes need it, think where the poor are…or dont. As money to the states decreases, property, sales, and, other taxes go up.

I agree, $90,000 per household, for the AMT seems a bit much, especially in more expensive areas. (Of course, if you have $90,000 a yr, you are choosing where to live, it seems, but, maybe not , if you cant get a job elsewhere)I just think that we should hold off on all tax cuts. But, especially, business ones. They will keep it, like the banks.

The new AMT, didnt the Dems put a change to this in this bill? Wouldnt that help out the middle class? At some point, the obvious answer is to overturn the Bush Tax cuts—-I would to it—-yesterday.

KDelphi, February 1 at 1:43 am #

ITW—-If they would—-the business ones most of all.
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Agreed.  There never were any tax cuts for the middle class, but there were ENORMOUS tax increases—that’s why gov’t revenue increased.  It was due to the AMT, Alternative Minimum Tax.  When the household income hit $100,000, AMT kicked in and you lost all your deductions and exemptions.  When it was written, $100,000 had the buying power of close to a million today.

But now, especially in the big metro areas, a 2-income family hitting that threshold is lucky to be able to afford a 3 br house in the ‘burbs.  In many NJ towns within reach of NYC, you’d have a tough time finding anything other than a very small house or a fixer-upper at that level.  Besides, $50,000 per spouse is worker-bee level, cubicle, no management responsibilities, or maybe first job out of college.

IOW, virtually all of the middle class 2-income families got tagged with the AMT, and are funding everything, all the while the GOP and their mouthpieces (like $50Mill/year Rush Limbaugh) championed the “tax cuts” and how they INCREASED govt revenue.  Lie.  It was the AMT that did that, and the GOP fought off RAISING the threshold.  In fact all, they did was keep it from being LOWERED to $90,000 per household.  Talk about a stealth tax increase!

If anyone needs relief it’s those folks—who do most of the spending and consuming in America.

ITW—-If they would—-the business ones most of all.

ITW—Once again, calling for tax cuts—been there done that. You get another $500—its gone. I could sure use it—-buy a stove! But, it will not work in the long run, and, I have one burner left.
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Ah, but the GOP voted to a man/woman against the tax cuts.  Now the Dems should pull them out.

Cornerstone—The so-called Fair Tax is bullshit, and, everyone knows it. It is a fast road to Third World Status—even faster than the one we are on now!

“What seems reasonably certain is that without massive aid to states there will be more layoffs—of teachers, of cops and firefighters, of people who repair roads, of building inspectors and others whose jobs are necessary to provide basic public services. Without getting more money quickly into the pockets of the unemployed, there will be more foreclosures and more consumers who simply have no money with which to consume.”

I agree with alot of the first part—alot of it is playing “catch up” for the monstrous way Clinton and Bush de-funded all the state progrsams.

P. Obama could put a freeze on foreclosures—-just like that. He coudl ask the House to take up HR 676—just like that. If it didnt pass, they would have to go on record. The real truth is that the Dems will always have an excuse.

ITW—Once again, calling for tax cuts—been there done that. You get another $500—its gone. I could sure use it—-buy a stove! But, it will not work in the long run, and, I have one burner left.

I agree with nino—-the lifetstyle most ‘Merkins lead is neither possible (in the long term) nor desirable—without bring death to millions.In any case, it cannot last. There is no “clean coal”.

jmac—I disagree with you on everything but this:“I would be quite happy to see Clinton, Frank, Bush and Rove spend time in jail for their parts.” So would I.

Why must we always think taxing the wealthy is the way to go? 

Tax everyone equally, including businesses.  Do away with tax breaks, tax deductions, etc.  Tax everyone on a flat tax equally.  Any monies made in the US are taxed at the same rate.  The wealthy would be paying more than the poor but percentage wise it would treat everyone equally.

From all the research I’ve read on this approach, the majority of the populace would end up paying less than they do now.  Of course, those who do not work or only work part time and get all the tax breaks and end up receiving more money back than they put into the system, would complain.  But then, funding all the welfare babies and illegal immigrants is part of what got us into this mess.  Notice I said part of the reason not the sole reason.

Quit the us vs. them and dem vs rep and work together to solve our issues.  I dream of a day when those elected to our government are actually for the people again and not big business and themselves.

It is reported that Mr. Lincoln once said that a country half-slave and half-free cannot endure. It seems to me that a nation half-socialist and half-capitalist is not doing to well either.

Corps and the wealth have proven they Can NOT simulate, or even maintain and economy.
Finally after 30 yrs of this re named Feudalist Caste system treason, Americans have been bitch slapped Awake to the Atrocity being committed by the Repugs ‘trickle Down’ economic stratedgy.
Every time one of these Traitors cries ‘Tax breaks’ I hear “OPEN SEASON”!!!
A tax break will Do nothing- as it has done for the last 30 yrs! Workers Are Tax payers, but if we don’t have jobs, we will not pay taxes even under threat of prosecution, because we need to buy food, pay for housing and heat first & foremost. Throw US in prison, Then we’re guaranteed 3 square meals, a roof over our heads and a little more warmth! (Not thrilled that Obama kicked up the Oval office heat, when I’m dressed like the Michelin man, trying to survive at 60 degrees in a Flint, MI Home- Now that is REAL ‘Flintiness’!!)
How dare Repugs discuss Tax breaks, when we have no jobs. How dare they concern themselves with Deficits, when we have no choice but to rely on Unemployemnt checks to survive. How dare Repugs continue to spew the treasonous ‘Trickle down’ rhetoric when Citizens are committing murder/suicides because they have no hope for our future!!! I don’t need any God Damn Tax breaks, I need a Job. Then I can pay my taxes, My mortgage, My credit cards, My Utilities, My groceries and even spend a little to help companies sell their products and services so they are able to hire more workers!!!
Get out the Recycled Paper Plates, There’s going to be heads Rolling if Repugs don’t start acting like Public servants instead of Corp Whores!

Re: troublesum

Your comment: “Korten maintains that real wealth is based on the production of goods and the US no longer produces anything.  That’s why everything has gone to hell.  Wall st tried to create the illusion of wealth from various credit bubbles as a sustitute for real wealth and it worked for awhile.  Obama and the people whom he is listening to believe that they can make it work again.”

Yes and no.  The US relies on its military strengh to abscond the production of goods from other countries in addition to their resources.  Therefore while the Wall Street illusion premise is valid it is only half of the story. We have, as a nation, invaded and stolen the resources of many countries at the behest of powerful business interests.

What was the invasion of Iraq REALLY about….OIL…..and they’ve as much as admitted that.

What’s with the “war on terror” in Afghanistan?  Wait a minute…. isn’t Afghanistan “pipeline territory”...?

It’s not really worth stealing oil that you cannot readily have access to, is it?

What’s more surprising, that there are people out in TV land that still believe that “supply side” economics can work, or that there are democrats out there who think they can spend their way out of a credit crisis?(republicans too!)

The repugs are out of ideas. They are reminicient of an old,failed football coach who keeps running the same plays, with the same personnel, hoping for a better result. Hope ain’t cuttin’ it any more! No amount of deregulation and limited taxation is going to put Humpty back together again. As a point of fact, they kicked Humpty off the wall!

The dimmos are pushing a massive spending and bailout bill that can only be described as more corporate welfare, with no strings attached! The dimmos and repugs fail to realize that we have created so much debt that no amount of economic growth will even make a dent in it.

So what to do? Here’s a modest proposal. First, stop spending more money than you have. Second, reallocate all your funds into educating our citizens(that means providing FREE college or trade school for EVERONE)Provide portable, socialized medical coverage to everyone, and start a massive infrastucture rebuiding project that includes changing all buildings over to “green” utilities and an equally massive public transportation project. once these are in place America will once again be a great place to do business. Why? because any potential employer will no longer have to worry about finding educated and qualified people to work for them, they will allready be here. They will not have to worry about the prohibitive cost of providing and managing healthcare for their workforce, it will already be done. And everyone will be able to go to work and get home in the cleanest, greenest ways possible, saving the nation countless billions, even trillions of dollars.

Not possible you say? Too expensive you say? Socialism you say? Well, I just have one question to ask you, how is bailing out rich people and corporations, and spending gazillions of dollars on national defense going to pay for an 11 trillion dollar deficit?(not counting personal and state debt)

Oh, that’s right, those spending policies put us in debt, and in the downward spiral we are in. But they just need more time to work!

Evolve America! We need to go balls to the wall on new ideas, or the 21st century could be a long and desperate time.

Inherit The Wind, January & jmac,

Chill. As long as “they” keep us yelling at each other “they” win because we are to distracted yelling that we haven’t noticed “they” have stolen all the wealth of this country!

Look- Republican or democrat they all(most) all are run by corporations and do NOT represent us - the voting, taxpaying public. The first Wallstreet bailout proved that. 95% of the comments lawmakes got from their constituants was “NO” to the bailout. The other 5% said “HELL NO.” They pass it anyway.

Again; They all(most) all are run by corporations and do NOT represent us - the voting, taxpaying public.

jmac, January 29 at 12:03 pm #

Inherit the Wind,
Calandarly Challenged? Try reading the Wall Street Journal of September 9, 2008 and see the documentation of your hero, Mr. Frank. Call the world a liar for not agreeing with your warped sense of reality but facts are facts.
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I stand by it.  Perhaps YOU should read Mr. Frank’s response to the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122162063022546651.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Please note THIS sentence:
“The Journal’s error concerning what happened when the Democrats took over the majority early in 2007 is a classic example of ideological bias. It is important to repeat that the editorial omits the key point, that it was exactly in that period that the House Financial Services Committee, that I chair, passed and helped pass through the House a bill that embodied the reforms asked for by the Bush administration, and that was the basis for Secretary Paulson’s and FHFA Director James Lockhart’s recent actions.”

Please also explain how a bill that took place in March of 2007 could have caused the housing bubble to burst in 2006, which is when the whole house of cards began to collapse.  There’s no “Flux Capacitor” at “121 Gigawatts” that allows Barney Frank to travel backward in time.

As I said,it’s a pure bullshit lie and the Wall Street Journal knew it! It’s the same old attempts by Republicans and neo-cons to avoid the responsibility for their hubris, bad judgment, and reckless disregard of their nation’s and neighbors’ property, savings and well-being.  They are all just Gordon Geckos saying “Greed is Good!” and whining, complaining, and just flat-out lying when it all came down.

Yeah, you’re still “calendarly challenged”.  And so is the editorial board of the Fox Noise Street Journal.

Inherit the Wind,
Calandarly Challenged? Try reading the Wall Street Journal of September 9, 2008 and see the documentation of your hero, Mr. Frank. Call the world a liar for not agreeing with your warped sense of reality but facts are facts.

Making the government ineffectual was not just done under GWB, it started with Reagan!  He just kept repeating how government was the problem, and the sheep started to buy into that notion.  Let us add that putting unqualified people that don’t believe in government in charge of government gives us exactly the mess that we are in.  Those corporate shills parading around as Repugnikan “representatives” screeching about needing more “tax cuts” haven’t offered up anything other than the same old drivel - with faux righteous indignation!

I don’t know if this stimulus will work, but compared to what should have been the discredited trickle-down theory (nightmare) that this nation has been going through for the last 30 years - it is an alternative that I think we should at least try.  This is not to say that I don’t want to see receipts, rules, and regulations put back into place!  But to continue on with the failed “laissez faire” mentality is to continue banging our collective heads up against the wall!!!  As for those shills that continue to be obstructionists against the tide, they should be drowned out in the next election cycle!!!

“We do not know if this giant stimulus plan will work—if it is big enough and bold enough. But at least it marks an overdue abandonment of the approach we know has failed.”

~~~ 

As my son, (the small business owner who went without a pay check for four months, so he could pay his crew, then had to let them go anyway when quarterly taxes came due) pointed out, “Mom, I think folks have finally figured out what Reagans “trickle-down” economy meant. It meant stand still while we pee on you!”

Judging from the same-ol-same-ol mind-set of so many posters who never had an original thought in their pathetic lives, (and will go to their graves defending the repubs) I guess there are folks out there who LIKE to get peed on!

jmac, January 29 at 9:43 am #

Taking $$$$ from taxpayers to support unproductive parts of the economy will haunt the “Anointed One” for the rest of his tenure.
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Are you “Calendarly Challenged”?????? For the last 6 years of Clinton’s administration, Republicans controlled BOTH Houses of Congress, and by substantial margins.  They got through EVERYTHING they wanted, included some criminally irresponsible changes to the bankruptcy laws.

And, under Bush, they continued their control of the House until Jan 2007.
Meanwhile, except for the 2 years from 2001 to 2003 when the Dems had a 51/49 majority in the Senate (which included Joe Lieberman), the GOP ruled the Upper House from 1995 to 2007 as well.

So just how was Barney Franks supposed to be able to be responsible for the entire collapse?  A minority member in the House can’t block legislation the way they can in the Senate, as the Senate has the Filibuster rules.

It’s pure bullshit to blame the failure of a 40-year long policy, involving thousands of rules, regulations and laws, that accelerated for the last 28 years since Reagan, on one, single minority House member.

Time to take responsibility! Time to grow up and put away childish things!  I’ve read Ayn Rand, many, many times…she got it backwards—it wasn’t her liberals who caused the collapse, it was the people who claimed to believe in her ideas.

Inherit the Wind

Fact. Banks pressured to issue sub standard mortgages was started under Clinton

Fact. Sub standard mortgages were continued under Bush with Roves help.

Fact. B. Frank blocked regulation of mortgages when both Bush and McCain tried to interecede.

I would be quite happy to see Clinton, Frank, Bush and Rove spend time in jail for their parts.

Taking $$$$ from taxpayers to support unproductive parts of the economy will haunt the “Anointed One” for the rest of his tenure.

jmac:

Just another neo-co trying to find a scapegoat for a generation plus of failed GOP policies.  “Barney Frank” is the latest scapegoat put up by the RNC and Rush Limbaugh. 

Never the reckless deregulation, reckless expansion of the deficit, reckless tax cuts that NEVER trickled down.

Think about this: With no tax cuts, only a tax increase, and a balanced budget, 21 million jobs were created under Bill Clinton in 8.  With lots of tax cuts, deficit spending and politicization of the federal bureaucracy,  3.1 million jobs were created in 8 years under George W. Bush.  The BEST quarter of job creation under Bush never caught up the WORST quarter of job creation under Clinton.

Unemployment has hit its highest rate in 16 years—when Daddy Bush left office.

You’ve had 40 years since Nixon, 28 years since Reagan, and 8 years since Dumbya to create the biggest collapse since 1929…and you think you can blame it all on Barney Frank! And somehow, Frank did this while the House of Representatives was under…REPUBLICAN control!  Wow! How’d he get them to do that??????????????????????????????????
(in case you doubt it, the GOP held the house from January of 1995 until January of 2007, by which time the sub-prime crisis was upon us as housing prices started dropping in mid-2006. By March of 2007 it was clear the Sub-prime was a mess—and NOTHING attributed to Frank could have happened in just 2 months—you can’t extend lots of improper fannie-mae freddie-mac mortgages in that time.

So, buddy-boy, YOUR guys were in control of the House and NOTHING could be done in those 12 years without Dennis Hastert and John Boehner supporting it.

No, it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee: Your policies have failed, and failed miserably.  Alan Greenspan, who knows FAR more about it than you or me,  said flat-out that EVERYTHING he believed for 40 years was just plain wrong.

That’s right, JMac: Everything you have believed about the economy for 40 years is wrong….and it ain’t due to Barney Frank in a GOP House!!!!  It’s just another neo-con red-herring flat-out lie.

Time for a reality check!

Nino wrote: “The last thing we need to do as a relatively intelligent society is to continue this model of “growth” = “The American way of life.”  We need to put every last dollar and ounce of remaining easy energy to the tasks of rebuilding a sustainable country or world.”

True Nino!  Those of us who understand this more sustainable model of existence will endure through these difficult times.  Unsustainable growth is the direct path to destruction.  Capitalism is dying a long and hard death and it’s adherents voices will become mute as we live and die through these hard times.  There are also forces at work beyond human control that will affect the thinking and lives of many and move us to a new plane of existence. We are feeling the effects of it now and it is accelerating.

jamc,  On Immigrants please see:

http://www.truthdig.com/cartoon/item/20081124_anti_immigration_thanksgiving/

You want NAFTA to be gone? Get ready to start walking. Yep that’s right. The US imports 70% of it’s oil.  Canada and Mexico are number one (1) and number 3 suppliers on the list of countries that sell us oil. NAFTA requires them to sell us oil. Yes, REQUIRES them to sell us (US) their oil before they can use it themselves!

I am afraid that our country will not start to heal until we face down the liberal crud that is destroying it. The start of our current problem was Barney Frank using his position to block regulations to curb abuses of Freddy and Fanny and starting the collapse of sub standard mortgages. As for the states needing help with budgets I would suggest there would be money for police and firemen if they were not supporting illegal aliens. We don’t need 800+ billion pork spending, we need to get rid of NAFTA, CAFTA and the rest of the give away jobs scams. If we removed 25 million illegal aliens we would immediately have millions of jobs for Americans and billions of dollars to help American families survive this financial crisis, but no, the liberal crud will keep scammin the folks and keep spending our children and grandchildrens heritage until we become a third world country and begging for food for our families.

Korten maintains that real wealth is based on the production of goods and the US no longer produces anything.  That’s why everything has gone to hell.  Wall st tried to create the illusion of wealth from various credit bubbles as a sustitute for real wealth and it worked for awhile.  Obama and the people whom he is listening to believe that they can make it work again.  Korten believes that this is the end for wall st and explains why.

If you’ve had enough of economists pretending they know something about the economic disaster, listen to David Korten at democracynow on 1/26/09.

Growth, growth, growth. That’s all I hear. The neocons want their corporate buddies to have lower taxes and bigger loop holes singing “my shit does trickle down - see.” The progressives want their social safety nets and billions for the highways. More, more, more.  Grow, grow, grow. “Let’s get those Caterpillar’s rolling!”

Wake up people. This is a finite planet - period. The word “growth” should only be applied to children and your garden. Ever hear the Biology term “overshoot and collapse?” How about “Are humans smarter than yeast?” If the answer is no then get Googling! You see, even the most modest growth can NOT be sustained. That is a mathematical reality folks. Sorry to rain on your Hydrogen Economy.

The last thing we need to do as a relatively intelligent society is to continue this model of “growth” = “The American way of life.”  We need to put every last dollar and ounce of remaining easy energy to the tasks of rebuilding a sustainable country or world.

Sure, we need social safety nets but what is going to save those safety nets when there is no food grown at the massive industrial levels it currently is? What good will heating bill aid do when their is no more natural gas to heat with? Resource depletion, weather it is oil, natural gas, coal, uranium, iron, magnesium, etc., is an absolute mathematical fact. 6.6 billion in human population can not just keep growing. We have reached the tipping point on resource depletion as well as climate change. Grow, grow, grow is the last fucking thing we need.

President Obama may be light years ahead of any president since Jimmy C. but he is still not able to grasp this single geological fact. Come on Obama, stop listening to industry and Wallstreet and look ahead.

I don’t expect ANYTHING Obama and Congress does to immediately re-employ 10 million people, make trillions available for sound loans, prevent all the fore-closures still to come, or send people flying back to the malls to spend, spend, spend.

But we have been hemorrhaging money from our economy like a body bleeding to death—and that has to be slowed down and stopped. The first step is the 40-28-8 year policy: Recognize that EVERYTHING about Republican economic policies laid out when Nixon, Reagan and Dubya be President were fundamentally WRONG—40 years ago, 28 years ago, and 8 years ago.  And, like the 20’s, it has lead to unprecedented massive economic disaster.

For 40, 28 and 8 years the infrastructure that MAKES America has been neglected, from replacing old track with modern high-speed rails, to still using the Space Shuttle designed in the 70’s with no real upgrades since.

In between, Jimmy Carter warned us of this, and tried to bring about a shift from fossil fuel dependence and waste.  He was prophetic and ignored.

As the House Re-thug-lickens yet again show that they don’t give a FUCK about fixing America, only about protecting the richest among us, as we see John Thain show the WORLD the worst of Wall Street, we now must do what FDR did—get to work and keep trying stuff.  If one thing didn’t work, FDR tried another, and another and another.

One thing we know: NOTHING the GOP suggest will work.  They’ve been at it for 40, 28 and 8 years and all it’s done is make thing worse:  What’s their answer—Deregulation for corporation, tax cuts for the wealthiest, and violating the civil liberties of Americans.  Seems that the RIGHT thing to do is 1) RE-regulate Corporate America, especially banking and the FDA, 2) Cut taxes for middle and lower income Americans and RAISE them on the wealthiest (back to where they were) and 3) Re-establish that the Bill of Rights and 14th Amendment aren’t inconvenient scraps of paper.

BTW, I think President Obama is doing a FABULOUS job! Sure-handed, sure-footed, far-sighted, with his priorities sane and sound!  What a RELIEF!!!!