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Economic Policy Could Scuttle Obama’s Good Start

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Posted on Jan 27, 2009
Obama
AP photo / Charles Dharapak

Barack Obama finishes a speech about the economy on Jan. 8 at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va.

By Robert Scheer

Only a week into the new administration, and yet there is this nagging thought that Barack Obama’s legacy already hangs in the balance. Sounds absurd, I know, given the brief time, but his early response to the financial meltdown is just that important. Despite a terrific start in so many directions, Obama is up against an economic crisis that, although not of his making, will, if handled improperly, spell his—and the nation’s—undoing.

Obama is in these early weeks making trillion-dollar decisions that will cast the die for the rest of his promising agenda. Unfortunately, while the new president has already proved to be a brilliant and super-competent agent of change in so many ways, in matters of economic policy he has relied excessively on the financial “experts” who helped get America into this mess.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and top White House economic adviser Lawrence Summers are retreads from the Clinton years who sided with congressional Republicans in unraveling the regulatory regime created by Franklin Roosevelt that had served the nation so well. Perhaps they have now come to their senses, given the financial horrors that their deregulatory mania unleashed, but it gives one pause to see these folks back on center stage performing with the same arrogant aplomb as they did when they had it all wrong.

We can only hope they are now prepared to make amends, although Geithner and Summers often seem to be pushing for more of the same: bankers first, women and children later. The good news is that the message coming from the mouth of the new president is that he intends to make a significant departure from the Bush bailout, by placing emphasis on preventing foreclosures, curtailing bank lobbying and holding the recipients of federal funds responsible for opening the tap of loans to the public. The structure of the stimulus package is also reassuring, with its emphasis on spending money in ways that will improve the quality of life for ordinary Americans and its ban on bonuses for corporate execs who utterly failed in their responsibilities. Imagine how much better off we would be if we had just taken the first $350 billion of TARP funds and used it to help teachers, cops, nurses and firemen buy homes in the communities they serve.

We certainly should give Obama the benefit of the doubt. In every other area his early performance has been stellar. Certainly so with respect to human rights and protection of civil liberties; in his first week in office, he reversed many of the atrocious Bush-era policies. With an urgency unmatched by any other modern president, Obama has sharply countered America’s tainted image by acting to close the Guantanamo Bay detention center, ban the CIA’s “enhanced” interrogation tactics and restore the power of the Freedom of Information Act to ensure public access to the information required for an informed democracy.

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In other important instances, Obama has been refreshingly true to the promises of his campaign by taking the first steps toward ending the U.S. occupation of Iraq, by moving toward energy conservation and by ending punishment of international health organizations that have been severely undermined by the dictates of anti-abortion zealots. His early actions on global warming and the Mideast show a clarity of commitment absent from the executive office over the past eight years.

In these areas, Obama has acted with an informed confidence not always evidenced in his initial moves on the economy. Why, in the management of the economy, do we hear so little from the Chicago community organizer concerned with the pain of the average person and instead perceive so much of the sensibility of the Harvard business and law school elite, preoccupied with the well-being of the denizens of Wall Street?

As Obama stated in his inauguration speech, “A nation cannot prosper long when it favors only the prosperous.” That is the problem with the Bush bailout, which Obama asked to be extended and which has resulted in little more than a rearranging of the chairs, not to mention the commodes, of the first-class passengers on a sinking ship. It has been the biggest corporate welfare program in history, enabling Wall Street hustlers to cut themselves lucrative deals while so many millions lose their jobs and homes. I’m betting that Obama will try to put a stop to all of this, but he needs to hear from ordinary folks who are hurting and outraged.

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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By Girish, November 7, 2009 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

obama is a good person. he has a good political views on world deomcracy.
Awesome article and news…..
———
Girish
———
buy forclosed homes—buy forclosed homes

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By robin009, May 14, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Hi
friends…
Thanks for the nice blog on this site..
I like the comments….. of the Topic…
——————————————————————
Rob
——————————————————————
Arizona Drug Rehab Centers and Programs-Arizona Drug Rehab Centers and Programs

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By KDelphi, February 9, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Sleeper—Yes, and, why should they get grants to locate there, if it is a ‘free market”?? That is why the “free mkt’ is such a hoax in the uS.

ITW—I dont care whether it does or not. Its not right. I suppose that if you do something that DC doesnt like you get booted out of the House, too. But, its not right.

The duopoly makes sure we get samo/samo.

Dr. Paul may have a few good ideas,(pot, war, he thinks that globalization and free trade agreements, as written, are crap—btw—Pres. Obama just said he might “rework” NAFTA—-that would be great, I think) but, if he were president, we would be in a world of shi*t. He also frightens me some with the links they give at some of the related his websites ie: economics (the Austriasn School—which is yoyo, youre on your own, which couldnt be wa worse idea than now), which said website has very neo-nazi-overtones. He also took money from Aryan Nation groups, and, said that he “didnt need their money”, but, “didnt think he should give it back”.

They have a right to exist. I have a right to believe that those that particpiate in them are sick.

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By truedigger3, February 9, 2009 at 8:04 am Link to this comment

“sleeper”,

When Ron Paul says he wants the people to be “free to choose and the government off our back” ,then who
do you think will gain? the average Joe/Jane or the big all powerful Money/Business.!!??
Without government regulations, big Money/Business will run amock exploiting the average citizens and will gain control over the gornment.  We see a good example of that in our current banking and economic
disaster.

Surprise!! “Shenonymous” wrote a good critique of
Ron Paul and it had many very good points that I agree with.

Ron Paul has some, but not many, good ideas which are shared by many people from different schools of
thought. For example legalizing pot and abolishing
the Federal Reserve Board.
I am not sure what is his opinion about globalizaton
and “free trade” which are gradually destroying the
middle class in this counntry.

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By Sleeper, February 9, 2009 at 6:54 am Link to this comment

We have a local community development project at the former Hathaway Shirt Factory.  A developer from Rhode Island has applied for and received a number of Federal State and local grants and tax breaks, but he choses to employ very few local hands in his development. 

The contractors are not being required to pay either federal or state prevailing rates which doesn’t seem right to me.  The workers do not support any training program and I bet very few receive any healthcare benefits.  Thats a pile of money that should end up in workers hands but it is finding its way into more greedy hands. 

I am sure that there should be some minimum requirements to all these incentives that were handed to this developer.  It seems like a community development grant should be required to develope a community by employing a certain number of local people.  Only Responsible contractors who have health benefits and require employees to have received at least 10 hours of OSHA Training should be invited to bid.

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By Sleeper, February 9, 2009 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

Shenonomous,

I’ haven’t said that I am a whole hearted supporter of Ron Paul.  I kind of view truth as being in the center of a circle.  I know at diferent times in my life that I have viewed it from a few different perspectives.

My parents considered themselves Republicans when I was a child.  The first Presidential race that I was eligible to vote in was 1984.  The hostage crisis occured while I was in High School.  I think all Americans felt helpless as the hostages were held over a year.  I followed some friends into the Corps, although I got a guarentee for Avionics.  They joined the infintry.

I was in a squadron that went on Caribian Cruises and practiced War Games in Arizona when th CWO-2 of the avionics shop came up to me one day and said to me” I’ve heard a rumor that you have been going up to New Burn and smoking weed.”  He gave me three options. 1)Admit myself into a Drug rehab lose a strip get a fine and continue my enlistment.  2)Volunteer a urinalisis and if it comes back positive I will lose a stripe receive a fine and continue my enlistment.  3) Make him compell me to take a urinalisis and when it comes back positive he would recomend that I receive a Court Marshall. 

I volunteered a urinalisis and the results were negative.  Two weeks later I received orders to transfer to HMM-162 who will be shipping out to Beirut, Lebanon next month.  I guess he didn’t feel like apoligizing and didn’t want me around any more.

I think Ron Paul is true in his beliefs.  I don’t believe in the government sticking its nose into a womens descission.  His position was that it should be a states rights matter.  Let each state decide for themselves.

I think I have probably voted for 2 Republicans in my life.  Ronald Reagan in 1984.  I was in the Marine Corps then and the Iran Contra revelations came out after.  The other one was probably William Cohen in the same year.  I see the world differently now.

My support for Obama is definately not solid.  I think it is sad that the stimulas bill and the bank bailout bill were promised to help.  The Bank bailout has so far done nothing but allow the bad performers to continue to reward themselves at the taxpayers exspense. 

The bad debt was creatively developed by the lending institution.  I had a second mortgage once that was sold to 5 companies over 3 years.  The last one did not give me credit for th last payment that I made to the previous owner.  I sent copies of the receipts to them and they continually blew me off for over a year and refused to work with me on finding a way to catch up. 

They charged me unwarranted late charges and ran the principal up.  I ended up going bankrupt and the auction payed the primary lender, but the secondary lender received nothing.

I hear that they still are not working to help loans in default return to being serviced.  I bet there a re a high amount of student loans that people would attempt to service if they could receive forgiveness on the default charge.  I hear instead people with remaining good credit will receive an interrest rate deduction.  It has morphed into another gift to the rich that does not accomplish its intended purpose.

Stipping the stimulus from the money alloted to build new schools is counter productive to the intent of that bill.  Our children need new schools that do not contain old lead based paint or aasbestos insulation that is coated to prevent the release of the asbestos fibers.

New schools would have no asbestos.  They could be built with green systems that could reduce or eliminate energy costs.  The construction would in the short term provide construction jobs.  The value of utilizing members of the building trade would is always the best deal.  It supports worker from the local area.  It gives work that helps pay for and allow a number of craftsmen to train apprentices also from the local area.

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By Shenonymous, February 9, 2009 at 2:59 am Link to this comment

Sleeper, I can appreciate what you find as valuable in Dr. Paul’s libertarian ideas as each of us are entitled to freely choose.  We do live in a free country much to the efforts of GW and TJ.  Thank goodness, however, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had the courage to be our founding fathers hemp growers or not.  Hemp, or cannabis, was not always thought to be just the psychoactive drug marijuana, which today is used legally world wide for cancer victims, except here!  There is a whole hemp industry, check out the Hemp dot com Store online.  Used in textiles, industrial hemp is still used for making rope!  Check out the Wikipedia entry for hemp, it might surprise you.  There is a hemp body creme I find excellent. 

Since you listed your reasons why you preferred Ron Paul, and while I do not intend to elaborate in the least about why I couldn’t get on the cultish bandwagon of Ron Paul, there were some things I agreed with Dr. Paul, but there are many more with which I disagreed.  I will just touch on some of these and will not debate them at all:  What I saw as his medieval position on abortion and Roe vs Wade threw him right out of the ball park at election time and sent shivers through most free-to-choose enfranchised and autonomous American women.  His saying that the Civil Rights Act was more about property than about race also catapulted him into the racist funny farm.  He believed the First Amendment was not about freedom of speech but was written for “controversial” speech, which is patently absurd.  He opposed hate crime legislation.  Cannot say I agreed with any of his policies on education.  Would say I disagreed strongly with his proposals on education.  Cannot find one of his proposed policies on Foreign Policy that I agreed with.  He thought passengers on airplanes should be able to carry guns on board, which in my view is insane.  I completely disagreed with his position on gun control.  I completely disagreed with him on his ideas about health care.  I agreed with some of his positions on Homeland Security.  While I think immigration done legally is healthy for this country, I disagreed with him on most issues regarding illegal immigration.  I think his position on abolishing social security is asinine.  He was a very wealthy man and had no reason to feel insecure about his old age.  Unfortunately most Americans are not in that class.  I do not oppose the capital gains tax, or inheritance tax, I do not call it a “death” tax that the rich favor.  I agree with him on the Bush War in Iraq.  I disagree with him on the necessity of the American Civil War.  I agree that America ought to talk with Iran.  While I agree that terrorists attack our country for our actions abroad, I also think they hate America for the guaranteed freedoms Americans enjoy unlike any other country in the world.  I do not agree with the Patriot Act as George Bush signed it and feel civil liberties were infringed upon.  I agreed with the contra or con arguments as found at: http://www.npr.org/news/specials/patriotact/patriotactprovisions.html
.  I agreed with him on his voting record about the Bush Iraq War.  I agreed with him on some of his policies on welfare and poverty and disagreed with him on others.  I am a liberal Democrat, and would not consider myself Libertarian in any way shape or form.

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By Sleeper, February 8, 2009 at 11:39 pm Link to this comment

Ron Paul definately is not your average republican.  The foreign policy that he talks of was that Washington supported commerce with all, but encombered by none.  He also speaks to the abdication of their responsibility Congress exhibited by establishing the Federal Reserve.

Under the Constitution Congress is the only entity that can coin money.  There was a major shift brought on by this in 1913.  It is another racket Congress created.  I watched a movie “Freedom to Fascism” that speaks to this racket.

The shift that I speak of simply is that prior to 1913 there was no income tax on the people.  Federal Funding was able to pay for the establishment of a Railroad system throughout the U.S.A. also the telegraph system, and a number of major Canals.  All of them were paid for with money collected solely from tariffs imposed on imported goods. 

Now we tax our own citizens to provide Federal revenue and free trade has resulted with a smorgeshboard of foreign products that are sold with 100% markups or more for those who sell them and the tariffs are non existant.  We should go back to a system where we collect tariff that protect manufacturers that provide jobs to Americans.  I would be happy if we only imposed them to favor American ideals that support humane treatment of workers like offering them healthcare, protect the global enviroment, operate without exploiting child or slave labor. 

I would rather utilize access to our markets to defend humanitarian ideals as opposed to utilizing our youth to enforce interrest that aid global abusers who care less about American ideals or responsible global stewardship.

I think he is fairly neutral on Federal enforcement of Marijuana Laws.  He is more for States rights in such matters.  Obama has ordered DEA to stop raids on facilities that assist medical marijuana in states that have legalized the use of Medical Marijuana.

I think we would be better served if we could get the U.S. Supreme Court to review the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act. 

Personally, I believe that the use of urinalisis tests should be declared UnConstitutional.  I believe that the use of my personal bodily fluids for the purpose of conducting an unreasonable search that induces the collection of data that ultimately compells onself to incriminate oneself should be illegal and an offense that would carry a substantial fine and repeat offenders should be barred from being able to bid on a Government job.

I think there should be manditory minimum on things on those able to compete for work that utilizes Federal money.  I believe any infraction regarding violations of completing and verifing accuracy on data should I-9 should carry a $2500.00 fine for each count.  Violations concernig the payment of Federal Prevailing wage should carry a similar sentence on each count. A secound occurance should carry along with double fines should also prevent access from bidding on Federal Jobs for at least 1 year.  Any additional occurance should carry a lifetime prohibition from working or bidding on Federal Work on any and all supervision from that company. 

This would prevent a company from merly changing their name.  The supervisors would police these policies if this would be allowed to hold them accountable for their knowlegew of these infractions.

I have worked with highly trained teams that will police themselves for safety sake based on professionalism and the passion to preserve human life rather then the urinalisis that is an assult on the basic principals contained in The Constitution. 

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both would be locked up today because both of them grew Hemp.  It was a common marketable crop that has a number of uses.  One was to produce Parchment that the Founders Used to write the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

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By Shenonymous, February 8, 2009 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

I cannot say I am much of a fan of Dr. Paul, Sleeper.

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By Sleeper, February 8, 2009 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

Occasionally. I find a Republican voice that is refreshing.  They seem to be more of a true conservative nature and not Neo-Conservative. 

The one I admire for his views is Dr. Ron Paul.  He runs as a republican by hisheart is more libertarian.  I’m kind of glad that he is not from my distract.  I might vote for him depending on who he is challanging.  He revers the Constitution and the priginal Foreign Policy spoke of by George Washington.

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By Shenonymous, February 8, 2009 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

You seem to be a kind and thoughtful man, Sleeper.  You are also respectful and deserve respect in return.  We could think it was the Marine training, but I suspect you are naturally that way and raised right.  I do not know enough about Cynthia McKinney to have an opinion of her qualifications.  Others have extolled her virtues, but I have no idea where she would fit in with the Obama crowd.  She did get into trouble bad mouthing a policeman.  That would not serve her or that administration well.  While I don’t think Cindy Sheehan would be a good Obama appointee, I would have preferred to see the outspoken anti-war candidate elected as a House Rep. as she was running against Pelosi who I think is a pawn of the corporations as much as any of those politicians.  But she did not win.  Too bad.  She will not win a senate election either with two strong women in California: Feinstein and Boxer.  Unless there are term limits there.

I think if the Republicans give their usual lock step grief over the Obama stimulus package without contributing anything worthwhile, they are shooting themselves in the foot again.  They just lost a passel of seats and they are poised to do it again.  They will deserve what they get.  Too bad, because sometimes responsible Republicans can put a sobering brake on budget issues.  Not often, mind you to my liberal way of thinking, but sometimes.  In the end Obama will prevail.  I will look forward to your posts and opinions.  I appreciate you for being an honorable addition to this forum.  A breath of fresh air.  You along with the other declared Marine, Leefeller, who has a different style but most often has the best bite for the buck.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 8, 2009 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, February 8 at 2:05 pm #

Inherit The Wind,

You wrote:
“You don’t think it has to do with her getting into it with the Capitol Police and cursing them out and assaulting them?”

This “incident” was deliberately provoked by the Capitol Police. You don’t think her identity was not known. C. McKinney protested the unwarranted rough
treatment and “as usual” the incident was blown out of proportions by the corporate media.

*****************************************

Right. It’s part of that Grand Conspiracy that folks here keep harping on.

Yeah, and we all “know” that AIPAC and the Mossad was behind it as part of the grand Zionist cabal to take over the world…it was a key part of the plan to have the Cap. Police rough Congresswoman McKinney up!  (But didn’t she apologize later?)

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By Sleeper, February 8, 2009 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Thank you for not attempting to degrade my personal belief. That was an act of reverence to my ability to hold my own beliefs.  Personally, when asked of my nationality referenced to heritage I have often replied that my anncestors primarily come from europe although I do also have some Native American Blood within these veins.  I further usually explain that where there have been major wars I usually have ancestor on both sides.

I know a number of agnostics and atheist.  I one came to know a man who says he is atheist.  I worked for him he was up the heirary of that job a couple levels.  He also writes abit. I consider him a friend and place most of the emails that I receive from him in a file labeled school.  I also had a close friend who I met in the Corp.  I met him after I returned from Beirut.  His mother was Japanese and his father was German.  This once student of mine ended up taking his own life a few years back after he had marketed his aviation knowlege to oversee fleets of Gulf Stream V’s first for Atlantic Richfiel then Mc Graw Communications.  He was my best man when I was married in 1991.  His father traveled to Berlin when the wall was dismantled to see his brother that he had not seen since he escaped East Berlin.

I am a Peacekeeper.  As a child my father was an engineer and a republican.  My brother was a Hippie who hitch hiked across this country and often panhandled to survive.  I became a Marine.  My brother now hold a Masters degree and administrates a hospitals Chemical Addiction Ward.  His step daughted hold a PHD.  I am a working man.  My son flys drones for the U.S. Army and my daughter will be graduating from high school shortly.

Cinthia McKenney is a zealot that serves a calling.  I commend her for ability to her own self remain true.  Obama would be well served to find a place for her.  I suspect she will remain influential by challenging this administration as it allows its intentions to be bought off and find her own position out side this administration.

Obama is a friend of the people.  Congress will continue to serve the corporatist unless public opinion demands action.  I suspect a conference bill will be altered to reflect more of the houses version and will pass the house.  In the Senate Republicans will have to make a choice on rather to allow the package to be voted on up or down or they will be responsible for preventing it through a fillibuster as they have threatened.  I suspect the names of those who support the fillibuster will become famous.  I believe that a political price will be payed by the GOP for this action at the next election.

The price will be payed by house republican possibly unjustly since it was the senate chooses this action.  The only Senators who will be risking anything are thos who come up for reelection in the next cycle.  Our Maine girls get a pass on that.

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By truedigger3, February 8, 2009 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

You wrote:
“You don’t think it has to do with her getting into it with the Capitol Police and cursing them out and assaulting them?”

This “incident” was deliberately provoked by the Capitol Police. You don’t think her identity was not known. C. McKinney protested the unwarranted rough
treatment and “as usual” the incident was blown out of proportions by the corporate media.

On a second note, it doesn’t stop to amaze me and to
some extent distress me, that here, many bloggers who
are well educated and well read to the extent they are able to delve into discourses about complex philosophical issues, those people are blinded by their biases and mental blocks and don’t use all this
knowledge at their disposal to try to look at the issues from different angel.
Maybe partial explanation is that some of them are
professional TROLLS whose primary aim is to confuse and waste time and energy of the people with some
specific views.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 8, 2009 at 2:25 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, February 8 at 11:27 am #

Cynthia McKinney is a very brave and principled lady..

I suppose that tht is why she doesnt fit into the duopoly…
*****************************

You don’t think it has to do with her getting into it with the Capitol Police and cursing them out and assaulting them?

Report this

By KDelphi, February 8, 2009 at 12:27 pm Link to this comment

Cynthia McKinney is a very brave and principled lady..

Here is a video of her attempt to help the people of Gaza:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4OhUpc20Q

Noam Chomnsky supports her, and, you can send her a note of support for her attempt to help Gaza here:
http://www.gp.org/press/OTW-cynthia.php

She was the only one who had the courage to actually question Rummy, and, she has always taken up for people that have no other vioce.

I suppose that tht is why she doesnt fit into the duopoly…

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By Folktruther, February 8, 2009 at 10:44 am Link to this comment

My vote accomplished almost nothing, Cann4ing, like eveyone else’s vote, essecially in a electoral system controlled by a Zionist ruling class.  But I feel oblicgated to do what little I can to make the world a better place for our children.

This is not done primarily by voing, but by trying to get the American people to repudiate the Zionist power structure that is misleading them.  Especially to understand that they have been conned by Obama, who is consolidting the political revolution of the Bushites.

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By cann4ing, February 8, 2009 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, February 8 at 1:47 am #

Way to go, truthdigger 3, you’ve made the right enemies.  I voted for McKinney too…

________________________________

And just what, pray tell, did your vote accomplish?

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By Folktruther, February 8, 2009 at 2:47 am Link to this comment

Way to go, truthdigger 3, you’ve made the right enemies.  I voted for McKinney too, a gutsy lady.  She was taking food to the Gazans when the Isralis rammed her boat, almost sinking it.  But the US didn’t hold Israel responsible for the Liberty, and routinely allows Israel to harrass and kill Americans.  The McKenny party made it to Lebanon fortunately.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

Why thank, you for the compliment ITW. The fewer friends here the more I don’t owe anything to!  The ones that count are there though.  The ones that are authentic and mean what they say.  Oh I am quite sure you have been insulted by more capable metal(?)-boards than me.  I am really not very good at it at all.  But regardless of our differences, I admire your views on Israel!  They are always exactement!
Report this

*********************************************

Well…“metal-mouth” is more appropriate, but people have to use keyboards on-line…

To everything else….Touché!

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Sleeper, best wishes on your beliefs.  Glad to see you do not insist that everyone have them.

I more than often say Jeezus Keyriest in times of great joy and in times of great trauma, but it doesn’t mean anything really.  Do you know how many atheists and agnostics never said a mumbling word on their deathbed?  Billions.  And even more than billions, gazillions, only say SH*T in times of great joy or great trauma. No, I did not take a poll.  You seem to be completely naive about what people say in general and what atheists and agnostics say in particular.  But do tell us how many you have asked what they say?  Just how many atheists and agnostics do you know anyway?

Why thank, you for the compliment ITW. The fewer friends here the more I don’t owe anything to!  The ones that count are there though.  The ones that are authentic and mean what they say.  Oh I am quite sure you have been insulted by more capable metal(?)-boards than me.  I am really not very good at it at all.  But regardless of our differences, I admire your views on Israel!  They are always exactement!

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, February 7 at 3:41 pm #

Cryena,
You wrote:“You’re a stupid partisan hack “.
I am not a partisan hack.

That’s right Cyrena—He’s not partisan…LOL!

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By truedigger3, February 7, 2009 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Cryena,
You wrote:“You’re a stupid partisan hack “.
I am not a partisan hack. Believe it or not I voted
for Cynthia McKinney. You don’t have to call people
names to express and explain your opinions. That reflects badly on you and your upbringing!!
Regarding your snotty criticism of my English, well,
English was not the first language I spoke. Yes, my
English is not perfect but is adequate and clear and I am improving.
Keep dreaming about your Obama. Time will tell in the very near future.

KDelphi,

Your answer to sleeper about “oh my God” is right on the money.

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By KDelphi, February 7, 2009 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Sleeper—It means that they grew up hearing, “Oh my god”. If it was “inherent” or something, which language would it be in? If someone has never heard English, they wouldnt say it.

It becomes almost reflexive.

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By cyrena, February 7, 2009 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

By truedigger3, February 7 at 12:05 pm

You reming me with Cryena who to her Obama is doing
great although all indications show that he is another war monger and Wall St lackey.
But Cryena has her Obama blinders too.
~*~*
Truedigger,
Leave me out of any and all of your very uninformed and ignorant comments. You can’t even spell. You can’t formulate a grammatically correct sentence, and you have no CLUE to what Obama is doing, primarily because of your ignorance.

I have NO blinders as to the political manipulations of Barack Obama, and I know what he’s up against. In other words, my eyes are VERY WIDE OPEN, and I will always ‘see’ things that you don’t see, because I see the dots that you don’t see, and know oh so well how to connect them. I’m very conscientious about that…informed by truth and cold hard evidence that doesn’t take sides or maintain an opinion or ideology. Just the facts…you remember the drill.

Never mind, you obviously don’t. You’re a stupid partisan hack that frames everything in terms of your ignorance, which makes you a waste of time.

Get back to your crack pipe truedigger.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, February 7 at 5:26 pm #

ITW it is not my intention to piss you off.  However, I was wrong about your thin skin.  You have no skin.

ROFLAMO!  I’ve been insulted here by far more capable metal-boards than you.


I am not on these threads to make any friends.

Congratulations! You are doing very at it, too!

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By Sleeper, February 7, 2009 at 3:42 pm Link to this comment

Religion means a different concept to many.  I have heard the claim that everyone has a religion, but they reduce religion to a system of belief that for them allows them to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and demonstrate faith in their belief.

I have been indoctrinated as a Christian, yet I can see meaning in the teachings of Jesus although that may not coinside with what what I hear and see in organized Christian Churches.  I believe what Jesus taught was a belief in Judaism that was different or not dependent on what the Pharisees believed.

I believe that there is one source of energy.  Energy has two opposite polarities and exists on a number of levels.  I think this agrees with the Big Bang theory.  I see the passage ” In my Fathers House there are many mansions” another phrase that clearifies the intent.  That there are many paths to the same Truth.

I have also heard that in times of great joy or great trauma many Atheists and agnostics will exclaim “Oh God”.  What that mean?

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

ITW it is not my intention to piss you off.  However, I was wrong about your thin skin.  You have no skin.  And just a brush against your frozen opinions is taken as an assault.  I am not on these threads to make any friends.  Some of you are.  If you need it, that is your choice.  I call it as I see it.  I do not expect to develop any colleagues here but if one shows up, I appreciate it and say so.  I often appreciate others’ comments, and say so.  However, I do not align myself with anyone.  I do not have to call on a pantheon of TD residents to make my points.  Though there are those who must pigeonhole everything and everyone.  If you cannot read with an open mind and engage in friendly discussion, so be it.  Your loss. 

You have not made yourself clear about atheism nor agnosticism.  Claiming “It” and putting “It” in the most simplistic term as philosophy shows just how vacant are your views.  You can’t even take your own position very seriously.  How can anyone else?

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

For the same reason, ITW, that you might read a book on science.  There are no absolute authorities, but there are excellent arguments for the atheist position about the nature of the universe.  There are all kinds of atheists.  I have said as much.  Are you so thinned skinned, too, that you cannot take some well-meaning suggestion?  Good grief.
***************************************

It ain’t science, Shenon, it’s philosophy, but a basic philosophy, supposedly, that religion is a crock.

***************************************
Marxists, per se do not consider they have a “religion.”  Marxism is a socialist structure of complete egalitarianism of subsistence goods.
********************************************

Of COURSE Marxists don’t consider Marxism a religion! I’ve met a number of super-intense Christian fanatics who insist they don’t have a religion either and are against religion…See the parallel?  Both are so convinced they have “the Truth” that they can recognize other belief systems as “religion” (code word meaning “mythology”) but not their own!

As for me, I define a religion as a system of thinking that depends on belief and faith. And Marxism EMINENTLY qualifies, as does the flavor of Atheism that Marxist espouse.  I stand by that.

Boy! You don’t care who you P.O., do you? You’ve already got the nutty left like FT, Robert, Shingo, etc engaging in what you called phlegmatically a “gang rape” of your posts in their attacks (an assessment where I agree with you).  Now you’re going after me.

Excuse me, but I consider FT and Robert to just as religious and dogmatic as Chrisian96—at least HE admits to it be based on religious faith.

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment

For the same reason, ITW, that you might read a book on science.  There are no absolute authorities, but there are excellent arguments for the atheist position about the nature of the universe.  There are all kinds of atheists.  I have said as much.  Are you so thinned skinned, too, that you cannot take some well-meaning suggestion?  Good grief. 

Marxists, per se do not consider they have a “religion.”  Marxism is a socialist structure of complete egalitarianism of subsistence goods.  What the infamous Communists did was wretched.  It is governments like the Soviet Republic and the Maoists of China that adopted what they call an atheistic view.  The leaders used their own sense of atheism and gave the entire cosmos of atheists their own shortsighted perspective.  Theirs were purely political to control and instill fear in a believing public and did engage in ethnic cleansing, through butchering mass murder.  Mao had his soldiers run rampant through Mongolia and in China committing wanton killing.  They feared the Bible and its contradiction to the doctrines of Mao.  Mao’s mother by the way, was a devout Buddhist.  In Russia’s case, it was the Church, Byzantine and Russian Orthodox and the Jews.  Its success had a lot to do with the Great Famine of 1932.  In China, it was mainly against Chinese Christians and Buddhism (witness the antagonism against Buddhists at the Olympic Games), except Buddhists, genuine Buddhists, do not consider Buddha a god, nor do they believe their doctrines constitute a religion. 

Atheists are not inherently opposed to religion.  Only a few atheists posture an arrogance and engage in insults against beleivers.  They are angry atheists for various reasons.  I know scores of atheists who do not engage in the attempt to “convert” anyone.  They, and I, believe one must come to their own epiphany about the nature of life.  It is a case of both the atheists full of their own hubris who provide the occasion, and those who think they are typical, for the practice stereotypification.  There are wicked atheists but do not forget there are more humanistic atheists.  Like all who are stereotyped, a few are used to describe the many.  It is an ignorance to be sure.  But is often useful for those with nefarious intentions.

There is a definite distinction between agnostics and atheists.  Atheists hold there is not evidence to convince them of a supernatural being responsible for the universe or any good, or bad, among the creatures that populate the earth. 

Many who consider themselves as agnostic, reject the description of atheist.  It is usually thought that agnosticism is a more respectable name and think that atheism is dogmatically opposed to theism.  Atheism is simply the absence of belief in any, ANY, gods.  If, however, any particular god can take precedence over all the others worshipped on earth today, an atheist would reconsider and take a look at the proof provided as any scientist would. 

Agnosticism is a belief about knowledge, not about disbelief in a god.  The word agnostic was originally invented to describe the position for those who could not claim with certainty if any gods exist or not.  It means “secret knowledge.”  Therefore, agnosticism can be compatible with theism as well as atheism.

ITW, don’t worry about any Great Elevator.  There is no up to which to go.  Some one is only trying to fool you like parents did when they wanted to control your mind.

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By Folktruther, February 7, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, you may have made a good point about atheism being faith-based.  But then so is agnositism, its faith being put in the Scientific Method and other scientific ideology.

I have often notice my similarity to truthers like Cristian and Trith.  We all need an ideological system of some kind to get through life, a meaning bigger than ourselves.  In a cerain sense, they are my ideological brothers. 

But I believe that marxism has missed a stage in our political evolution, focusing on class elimination before we have solved the ethnic, racial and national problem intensified by class rule.

As for you, you will miss the entire scene when that geat Elevator Operator in the sky says: “Going up!”

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, February 7 at 8:05 am #

ITW calling all atheists by the name of Marxists is just the kind of oversimplified standardization that calling all Jews as fascist Zionists or Muslims as Islamist terrorists.  Maybe you need to gets some books on atheism as well.  I personally have been called recently by two separate and non-mutual friends a “Christian” atheist.  One of them took the time to explain what he meant and I actually was quite proud he called me that!  Interesting.
**********************************************

Shenon:  Maybe you need to re-read my post. I have NO qualms about condemning Marxists’ version of Atheism as a dogmatic religion.

BTW, the idea that a book and a bunch of “authorities” get to define non-religion is flat-out hilarious.  Why is THEIR definition of Agnosticism and Atheism more valid than mine?  Mine is logically consistent.

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 11:56 am Link to this comment

Amon, get a kleenex.  Wipe the drool from your chin.  And pick yourself up from the floor.  My guess is that is where you live.  Maybe if you and truedigger3 put your brains together you might come up with a whole one, but I doubt it.  Y’all kain’t thaink youse ways outta pappah baig.  You two sing a doleful duet.  Are you performing for your anti-American buddies?  Lots of laughs f’sure, f’sure.

Once again the Republicans are attempting to thwart President Obama’s economic recovery plan.  Trying to make up for the ugly loss they received in the big election.  If the stimulus package loses, and it won’t contrary to silly reports, the Republicans will get the full blame this time.  Everybody in America is watching and the rest of the world is too.  The laugh will be on them.  Of course there must be political bargaining, but that is always factored into the bills presented (it’s called smart politics).  GWB and friends ruined this country, and Obama has put forth a plan to fix it and fix it he will!  The Senate is seeing the light and the House already did.  It is a fait accompli.  President Obama did not go into this with sunglasses on.  Those of you who think he did are fools.  Oh oh, that rhymes with drools. Lots more laughs.  Cain’t youse guys get on topic?

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By truedigger3, February 7, 2009 at 11:35 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Thank you for a good laugh. I almost fell from the
chair laughing while reading your “statistics” which have been collected and published by your zionist brothers and sisters!!!.  It is amazing how far self delusion and being in denial can take a brain-washed human being!!!

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By Amon Drool, February 7, 2009 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL….shenon, u slay me.  and you’re pathetic.  whyzowl pegged u as a mock-intellectual teaser.  he also made an asute psychological observation about u, which i can’t repeat here cuz someone at TD will censor me.  you’ve become a waste of time and i just can’t stop laughing about it all.

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

As reported by McClatchy’s Wm Douglas Jan. 13,  American people are squarely behind Israel and overwhelmingly think that using force against Hamas is appropriate, according to a new McClatchy / Ipsos poll.

Forty-four percent of Americans support Israel’s use of force, while only 18 percent considered Hamas’ use of force appropriate. Fifty-seven percent think that Hamas is using excessive force, while only 36 percent said Israel was.

More than 1,300 Palestinians have been killed in the violence — soldiers and civilians, mainly civilians, and at least nine Israeli soldiers and four civilians have died, 13.  That is like 10 to 1, in case you don’t have any math skills. 

When it comes to who’s to blame for the latest Middle East crisis, Americans blame Hamas unequivocally: 44 percent said Hamas, 14 percent said Israel and 29 percent said they weren’t sure. Even if you add the 29 percent to the Israel figure, that would be 43 percent, but everybody knows that would not work out that way, why? Because they would have said Israel right off the bat.  Nine percent said both were to blame, and 4 percent said neither (these people thought it was aliens from outer space! oh yeah, or to be funny, they must have thought it was sunspots).

The with Iran blatantly sporting its muscles these days, why do you suppose the banned “hardline Iranian” suicide bombers from fighting Israel?  They only have a reported 70,000 registered voluteer suicide bombers.  That is seventy thousand.  Just a handful, right?  See Associated Press article Jan. 8. by Ali Akbar Dareini.  Talk about strong arm! 

Thing that is transparently noticed is that if any bonafide article is offered, it is soundly trounced by the pro-Hamas coalition on the forums.  The New York Times article on Jan. 17 by Robert F. Worth is a genuine criticism but is demeaned by one of the pro-Hamas residents on this forum.  The fact that Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia were the three countries that voiced their displeasure with Hamas, are only three of the biggest Arab countries!  Guess that fact was hidden by the denouncers.  The other thing is that do all of the countries have to be specified.  I guess we can go through that gyration, but for whom?  For those with rodent minds?  Clever at moving through mazes but unable to be captured by larger and smarter predators!  It is sufficient that even one, that is right, one, Arab nation is brave enough to speak against the terrorism that is found in the Arab world.

Oh, and truedigger3, get a life and get a grip.  As you surely don’t have any arguing skills but only continue with your infantile rants.

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By truedigger3, February 7, 2009 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

The plight and suffering of the Palestinian poeple
are caused by the Israelis and not by other Arab
countries or Hamas or anyone else.
The Palestinians were massacred and terrorized and driven out by the Israelis and nobody else.
So, please stop beating around the bushes about other
Arab countries and the “Arab Empire” and the rest of
your crude bullshitting. Please stop blamaing the
victims.
But I guess you are brain-washed and having your
Israeli bllinders over your eyes and to you, Israel
didn’t and doesn’t do any wrong ever!!!???
You reming me with Cryena who to her Obama is doing
great although all indications show that he is another war monger and Wall St lackey.
But Cryena has her Obama blinders too.

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By Amon Drool, February 7, 2009 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

truedigger3…your response to shenon was pretty much riteon.  wish u woulda been more diplomatic in what u said.  afterall, she did show some glimmers of humanity in her response to folk.

one senses that even shenon realizes her idea of an arab population, who has lived between the jordan river and the mediterranean for centuries, willingly leaving for an imagined abundant real estate in an imagined arab empire, is quite absurd.

her real blind spot is her willful hatred of hamas.  sure, hamas has its share of bad apples. what grouping of people doesn’t?  like sharon and netanyahu were good apples.  she cites timesman r. f. worth to contend that arab countries hate and distrust hamas.  worth actually refers to 3 arab GOVERNMENTS..not countries.  the 3 govt’s were saudi arabia, jordan and egypt…not exactly exemplars of representative democracy.  i’m sure that an overwhelming majority of the populace of these countries takes pride in hamas upholding arab dignity in the face of post 1967 israeli expansionism.  late last year, an article about hamas was published in the london times.  it was posted on quite a few websites.  i suggest our girl shenon google “we must adjust our distorted image of hamas” and read on.  afterall, academics are open to reasoned opinion, right?

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 9:05 am Link to this comment

ITW calling all atheists by the name of Marxists is just the kind of oversimplified standardization that calling all Jews as fascist Zionists or Muslims as Islamist terrorists.  Maybe you need to gets some books on atheism as well.  I personally have been called recently by two separate and non-mutual friends a “Christian” atheist.  One of them took the time to explain what he meant and I actually was quite proud he called me that!  Interesting.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 6:11 am Link to this comment

Cyrena:

I gave up on Robert a long time ago.  Many of his so-called sources are merely bigoted and biased web-sites.  His “Jewish” sources come down to very few, Finklestein being one, all of which are very heavily biased to his opinion.  He discredits instantly, on faith, any and every source that does not de facto attack Israel and Israeli actions, and equally discredits any source that quibbles with depictions of Hamas and Hezbollah as less than angels.

He cites unsupported and undocumented accounts of Israeli atrocities, even when they are clearly absurd and invented as propaganda.

And he cite these long articles espousing OPINION ad nauseum again and again.  Notice also that he NEVER adds any analysis of his own, merely heaps abuse and name-calling on anyone who disagrees with him, suggesting they are fascists or need medication.  And he does this all with NO sense of humor at all.  I now just skip his posts—saves time.

FolkTruther, OTOH, while he misrepresents other people’s views constantly, and can p*** me off like few can, can still crack me up on a regular basis—and it doesn’t “kill” him when there’s something we agree on.

The problem with stereotypes, even gentle and funny ones is they inevitably give carte blanche to those who aren’t so gentle and funny.  Sure, I’ve LIVED that idea that 3 Jews in a room have 5 opinions—at a minimum.  3 of us formed a development team and the yelling and screaming that resulted scared the s*** out of our colleagues if they had to join in, but the 3 of us have remained friends for many years now—because none of us took offense at it—at least not for more than a minute or two.

But when it leads to “All Jews love is money” or “Wall Street is run by rich Jews” it is both false and dangerous.  Actually, there are very few Jews in positions of power in the big Wall Street firms, both current and now defunct (like Lehman Bros). 

One of the greatest effects of President Obama is to crush the Prime Time TV image of Black men as either pimps/drug dealers, preachers (with a touch of corruption) or old-time politicians, and absentee fathers. When I hear Beyonce say “Smart is the new Cool” I’m delighted, but saddened that that needs to be so—it should always have been Cool.  Stereotypes color our thinking and never for the good.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 7, 2009 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, February 6 at 8:43 pm #

Wrong ITW, sorry.  But atheists do not believe in a god because no one can provide evidence of one.  While there is a belief that no evidence exists that a god exists, faith is not involved.  Science provides provisional evidence of its “beliefs”, mounds of it, that is verifiable. If it is not verifiable, it is not acceptable within the scientific community.  Science also allows for error and never says it has absolute proof.  It is always subject to revision based on new ‘evidence.”
********************************************

Shenon, that’s exactly my definition of Agnosticism.  But Atheism, especially as practiced by Marxists (such as FT) is exactly as dogmatic a religion as Marxism itself has become.  I’ll stand by that.

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By Shenonymous, February 7, 2009 at 5:08 am Link to this comment

The only one showing his ignorance truedigger3 is yourself.  And it is staggering. I haven’t decided what was good for a whole people.  I made a suggestion.  You obviously do not know the difference and cannot make very good distinctions. Yes there is an advocacy that Israel remain a country.  I am also advocating that Palestinians deserve a country free of the murder that has plagued them for 60 years.  Why do you leave out that fact?  I’ll tell you why.  Because you want to make a case.  But you wish to tear down someone before trying to make your weak argument.  You call names like a petulant child.  You have plenty of company in that department.  Have you read the history of the persecution of Jews?  And what other group of Arabs other than the Palestinians have been victimized?  Ever wonder why the rest of the Arab world has let that happen for 60 years?  Did you know they were disenfranchised by their own Arabian people?  Never allowed to have citizenship in any Arab country?  Even if they married an Arab that is not Palestinian?  If you disagree, give some proof to back up what you say.  We have to assume you advocate exterminating the Jews by what you say.  Your words belie your intention to persecute the Jews.  It has already been said that the response to the Hamas attacks was excessive.  Don’t like that word?  Okay, we will give you another one.  How about extreme?  How about Too Much?  or Exorbitant?  Ever ask why Hamas allowed a video to be made of them boasting using the Palestinians as civilian shields?  You do not have any logically sustained argument and do not know how to lay out a well-thought out thesis.  You show nothing documented to be presented for intelligent consideration.  That is what we do on these forums, you know.  Some of us have already done that and it is not necessary to keep repeating it as if you have no short term memory (or long term as it turns out).

Perhaps it is not a viable idea to provide a decent country for the Palestinians.  It is neither a dumb idea nor an impossible one, but I have to consider the source from which that accusation comes from. 

You further show your ignorance through your lack of knowledge about atheism and agnosticism.  You might get a few books on the topic.  Unbiased ones.  But then prejudice and ignorance apparently is your modus operandi, the environment in which you think.

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By truedigger3, February 7, 2009 at 4:00 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous wrote:
“I am suggesting that the Arab empire has an enormous amount of real estate and money out of which a country could be created for the Palestinians who have been homeless for 90 years”.
_____________________________________________________

This statement is a good display of your ignorance,
arrogance and complete bias in favour of Israel.
Who do you think you are to decide for a whole people
where to live against their adamant wish to live in
their homeland.
The Palestinian people has been homeless for 60 years
and not for 90 years as you stated. Did you read
the history of the creation of Israel in 1948, when
the Israelis terrorized and massacred the Palestinians forcing them to flee with their lives and then barred them from returning to their farms, houses and cities since then. If this is not ethnic
cleansing then what is??!!
This process of expelling the Palestinians from their
farms and houses is continuing to this very moment.
How do you think the continuous expansion of the number and size of the settlements is being done??
Are these settlement being built on a new empty unsettled frontiers??!! All these settlements were built don and are being built on confiscated Palestinian land.
Assuming all Arabs are exactly the same is a good
display of ignorance. There are variations among the
Arabs similar to the variations among the jews or
any other people who is spread out in different locations.  There are differences in customs, traditions , physical appearances and spoken
dialects, etc etc..  So, taking some Arabs from one location and trying to implant them in other location is dumb idea and it will lead to prolems.
In Israel, they have the same problem when all the
jews from different backgrounds were bunched all together.  Yemeni, Ethiopian, Indian and Arab jews with europian jews!!. Slavic jews with nordic jews!!
Eshkenazi jews with Sephardic jews!! Extremely religious jews with secular jews.  Do you get the picture?
_____________________________________________

To Inherit The W,

Your differentiating between an Atheist and an agnostic is nothing but abstract phelosophical bull.
Atheists when they say there is no God, what they
mean is that they reject the God or Gods depicted by religions.
By simple comparative thinking across history and geography they know a God or Gods is a figment of imaginations.
They do not claim they know the mystery of the universe.

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By cyrena, February 6, 2009 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2

y Inherit The Wind, February 6 at 10:41 am #
truedigger3, February 6 at 8:34 am #
Shenonymous,
Most of the people here don’t take you seriously
anymore or pay attention to your drivel and rantings.
So, why don’t you take howard , Inherit the W and
go away and have a party together.
******************************************
Not without Cyrena! That lady’s a true live-wire!
Meanwhile, why don’t all of us who dare to disagree with the “religious” dogma you spout go away so you can all engage in a big circle-jerk re-enforcing all your shared fantasies….kind of like forums at Fox Noise, only leftist.
~*~*

Thanks Inherit, you’ve made my day with the party invitation!!

And, it’s pretty obvious that I’ve got a natural aversion to the bullsh..er, religious dogma, so I can’t party in that environment for too long.
I’m all for the live action though…specifically of the type dedicated to survival of the mind and body as a unit. (the value of either being greatly diminished without the presence of the other)

Those of the parallel universe and alternative realities can start their own forums though. I’m not going anywhere.  I mean, I may flint from thread to thread here, but I’m the ‘retiring ‘sort of ‘live wire’ so I just stick with this one circuit, though I enjoy the discourse at Truthout.org as well.

Grande Dames such as myself must limit our ‘exposure’ to the masses if you know what I mean. A certain measure of snobbishness (at least as it is sometimes perceived by others) is just an unfortunate ‘attitude by- product’ of those of us who have to think quick on our feet. Those of us so firmly entrenched in ‘live mode’ just don’t have the patience for the DyD (Distraction by Drama). Or maybe I should say the created and totally irrelevant drama, because it’s ALL drama! Any observation of the Humanities reveals… DRAMA!!

And…that’s fine. We just have to learn to prioritize all this drama, to keep things balanced. As for me, I have to be very, very careful with my “Drama Diet”, because I’ve overindulged in my younger days, even though it wasn’t always by choice. That means my Drama Coping-Skills Supply is drying up as fast as some of my hormones. Maybe faster. And, there aren’t as many techno-ways to supplement that supply as there are with other such shortages. So in that case, conservation, (of the mind) is the only alternative. Fortunately, it doesn’t have to last forever, (like energy sources) and I’d be happy enough to stretch it another 30 or 35 years as long as the conservation methods hold out.

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By cyrena, February 6, 2009 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

However, while my wire is still live if a bit ‘less charged’ these days, we could have a conversation about this:

•  And “Is it reasonable to assume that stereotyping all Jews is fair and appropriate? Sleeper will argue ‘Yes’, FolkTruther will argue ‘Yes-er’ and Robert will argue “Yes-est’.”

(I had to chuckle at the ‘ratings’ but it’s not a mean-spirited chuckle. It’s more a sisterly chuckle). And, this might even be a tad bit of rhetoric on your part, if only because I don’t think Robert stereotypes all Jews at all. It’s just that for the most part, his (Robert’s) focus has been on pointing to the abuses of at least ONE collection of Jews, who happen to be the ones I don’t like so much myself.  HOWEVER, even in Robert’s professional efforts toward this focus, he utilizes resources from many Jews across the spectrum. So I don’t agree that he’s inclined to stereotype “ALL JEWS”. No, that wouldn’t be a fair assessment of Robert’s position, at least not in my interpretation.

Now on THIS:

•  “Then there’s my fav: “How does Obama compare with Bush?  Sleeper will argue ‘The Same’, Robert will argue ‘Worse’, PatrickHenry will argue ‘Worser’ and Folktruther will argue ‘It doesn’t matter, they are all wicked anti-Marxists’.”
Too funny! I think you’re correct on at least 1 out of 4. Folktruther will argue the “they’re all wicked anti-Marxists theory.” This is why my history professor’s maxim “Put three Jews in a room/discussion and you wind up with 5 opinions”… has some root in reality. Now that’s not stereotyping, but rather a testimony to the wide ‘diversity’ of Jewish opinion. Most of the Jews I know and love think like I do. Otherwise, I wouldn’t hang out with ‘em. wink

Meantime, how did you guys get sidetracked onto this stuff anyway? I thought this was about Obama’s economic policy, which the slimy repugs and blue dog dems are doing their best to wreck?

Somebody line me up a defense attorney in case I have to choke the shit out of Lindsay Graham. (for starters)

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By Shenonymous, February 6, 2009 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

Wrong ITW, sorry.  But atheists do not believe in a god because no one can provide evidence of one.  While there is a belief that no evidence exists that a god exists, faith is not involved.  Science provides provisional evidence of its “beliefs”, mounds of it, that is verifiable. If it is not verifiable, it is not acceptable within the scientific community.  Science also allows for error and never says it has absolute proof.  It is always subject to revision based on new ‘evidence.”

Since you asked a civil question Folktruther, I will give a civil answer.  My definition of ethnic cleansing involves genocide.  And I am not suggesting deportation or any forced emigration.  What I am suggesting is a new country for the Palestinians, not genocide.  I am suggesting that the Arab empire has an enormous amount of real estate and money out of which a country could be created for the Palestinians who have been homeless for 90 years and have had to bear the horror of those who wish to destroy Israel.  I do not have any personal attachment to Israel, nor to the Palestinians. If a one-state or two-state solution is possible, if and only if a permanent peace is brokered is an imperative, then whatever they are able to work out is the way it has to be.  I personally do not think either can be a solution but maybe it can.  I have no crystal ball.  Nor does anybody else at least on this Internet site. The history of the peoples of that region is not as clear cut as many think.  The Jews were originally nomadic people of that area as well as those who have descended to become the Palestinians.  They are both Semitic people.  The full history of all the peoples of that part of the world is very important since all kinds of accusations have feverishly been thrown in the air and caused many wars.  For those who want to solve the problem of these obvious enemies, it seems acute to solve it now.  But understanding of the history of both the Jews and the Palestinians needs to be excavated.  It must be objective and without passion so that the truth may be discovered regardless of how painful for either side it might be. 

I have said numerous times that I abhor the excessive killing that happened to the Palestinians in this latest Gaza war.  Further that it has been a nightmare existence for them over the last near 100 years.  I also said I felt that Hamas exploited the Palestinians for their own purpose.  Many Arab countries hate Hamas and do not trust them. I provided an article where this was well discussed by Arabs themselves.  In my mind that does not excuse the ‘overkill’ by the Israelis, but I do not fault them for retaliating when they were attacked.  I am convinced that Hamas used the civilians to hide their attack operations.  They themselves have admitted as much and I saw the video of that confession.  I think that is about as low an act as can be perpetrated against a people, and is akin to genocide.  I also think it is deplorable and inhuman that aid cannot get to the Palestinians, either by the intercession of Hamas, or the Israelis.  I have also become convinced that the Israelis are plenty culpable in the misery brought to the Palestinians.  There is no justification for their actions nor Hamas’s.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 6, 2009 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

To further add: While, as an Agnostic, I am generally sympathetic to Atheists as total outcasts from the world of standard religions, that’s merely me being a nice guy.

In fact, I see less differences between Atheists like FolkTruther and Christian96 than between Atheists and Agnostics like me.

Why? Because, ultimately the form of reasoning—or lack thereof—used by Atheists and the religious is exactly the same—faith-based.

But, as an Agnostic, I stand against the use of faith in any form as invalid.

I’m not a “cowardly Atheist” who is simply trying to straddle the fence with a weak and whiny “I just don’t know” as portrayed by Atheists and the main-line religious equally.

Rather I take the difference between faith-based acceptance of premises as true without challenge, and fundamental scientific skepticism as being as a wide chasm.

Atheists and the main-stream religions “know” things are “true” without proof or evidence.  I flatly reject that lack of thinking as invalid.

I don’t need to make up fairy tales, either about invisible friends, or the mystical “dialectic”.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, February 6 at 6:24 pm #

Inherit, you ignorant lout, an agnostic is a cowardly atheist.
************************************

Folk, you ridiculous ignoramous, an Atheist believes, without proof or evidence, that there is no god.  As such, you are just as faith-based as Pat Robertson.  A cynic. You BELIEVE there is no god.

An Agnostic does not accept faith as a valid means of knowledge or analysis. I do NOT BELIEVE there is a god. I am a skeptic.  See the difference? You “believe”, but I do not.

But, of course, like a good little faith-based Marxist, you accept the faith of Marxist Atheism on…dare I say it?...FAITH!  You are just as religious as the Likud Orthodox—the only difference is you have a different dogma that you preach daily.

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By Folktruther, February 6, 2009 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous- I am not attacking you here, I really want to know.  You have stated that the Palestinians should be Transferred from the homes, jobs, farms and country and the land turned over to the Israelis.  And now you state that you are not in favor of ethinic cleansing.

What do you think ethnic cleansing is?  Is there some meaning for it that I fail to see?

Inherit, you ignorant lout, an agnostic is a cowardly atheist.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 6, 2009 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, February 6 at 2:02 pm #

Inherit The Wind,

First I don’t spout any religious dogma because I am
an atheist.
Yes, it is not fair and it is not appropriate to lump and stereotype all jews together, but what we lump together are those who advocate or defend ethnic cleansing and void of any compassion.
There is hope that you might be turned around and
“see the light” but shenonymous and Howard are
hopeless cases.
By the way, in my humble opinion, Obama is worse than
Bush and more dangerous because in addition to following the same policy he neutered most of the
black people and the progressive leftist movement
by his skillful oratory and beautiful smile and
skillful bullshitting and make-belief measures.

************************************

Thanks.  You made my case for me with your own words.  I’m Agnostic—I see Atheism as a dogmatic religion that takes things on faith as much as any religion—just different things.

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By Sleeper, February 6, 2009 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther,

Check out these links for a take on controlling Corporations:

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/index.html

This is the Hidden History of Corporations in America:

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/history_corporations_us.html

The Truth is that we had Corporations as necessary entities that were not recognized as Persons.  Charters were frequently dissolved and the owners had no liability protection. 

It took a clerks notes to be allowed to stand as a finding without a challenge to create Corporate Personhood.  I think it was somewhere around 1880 prior to the emergence of the Trusts that later inspired Anti Trust legislation.

The thought of granting a stack of papers that form a Corporation to be given the status of a natural person is ludicrous.  Later they utilized civil rights protection to dispense with the risks that kept them responsive to the community and employees.  It is an old LIE yet it pays enough to alter the appearence of reality.

I think we would be much better served getting back to the basics where paper is paper and people have flesh and blood.

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By KDelphi, February 6, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Excuse me, but, Naomi Klein has a great article n the economic stimulus (or lack therof) on The Nation, (at AlterNet), in case anyone is interested.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/125566/naomi_klein:_public_revolt_builds_against_rip-off_rescue_plans_for_the_economy/

Probably not…

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By Shenonymous, February 6, 2009 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, if you are honest you will point out where I advocated ethnic cleansing, ever!  It is a lie perpetrated by your cronies and I will not have it and you are just mouthing what they have viciously denigrated me with.

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By truedigger3, February 6, 2009 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

Inherit The Wind,

First I don’t spout any religious dogma because I am
an atheist.
Yes, it is not fair and it is not appropriate to lump and stereotype all jews together, but what we lump together are those who advocate or defend ethnic cleansing and void of any compassion.
There is hope that you might be turned around and
“see the light” but shenonymous and Howard are
hopeless cases.
By the way, in my humble opinion, Obama is worse than
Bush and more dangerous because in addition to following the same policy he neutered most of the
black people and the progressive leftist movement
by his skillful oratory and beautiful smile and
skillful bullshitting and make-belief measures.

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By Shenonymous, February 6, 2009 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

truedigger3, February 6 at 8:34 am If so, truedigger3 it is only because you don’t have a serious bone in your head.  Sorry, but I’m here to stay like it or not!  Nanananananana, stick tongue out at you.  You get what you dish out, sweetie.

Why is it the pro-Hamas residents here don’t want to hear the truth?  Yeah, that was a rhetorical question.  Why is Hamas stealing the desperate aid needed by the Palestinians?  Why does Hamas use the Palestinians as human shields then Israel gets blamed for the overwhelming number of civilian casualties?  Because Hamas breeds cowards.

The Arabs don’t help Hamas because they hate Hamas.

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By Folktruther, February 6, 2009 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment

Sleeper- What I like about ex-military is that they are combative and disciplined.  Unfortunately, they also tend to identify with the common power delusions and, as you say, tend to be naive.

you feel that corporations can be made to serve te community, workers and the country before the bottom line and profit.  Truthdigger3 and I, and many, many other progressives, don’t think so.  I suggest that as you continue your study of power relations, you won’t think so either. And you will change your mind about Obama.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 6, 2009 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

truedigger3, February 6 at 8:34 am #

Shenonymous,

Most of the people here don’t take you seriously
anymore or pay attention to your drivel and rantings.
So, why don’t you take howard , Inherit the W and
go away and have a party together.

******************************************

Not without Cyrena! That lady’s a true live-wire!

Meanwhile, why don’t all of us who dare to disagree with the “religious” dogma you spout go away so you can all engage in a big circle-jerk re-enforcing all your shared fantasies….kind of like forums at Fox Noise, only leftist.

You can have debates like “Who is the bigger Zionist: Netanyahu or Ehud Barack?”

And “Is it reasonable to assume that stereotyping all Jews is fair and appropriate? Sleeper will argue ‘Yes’, FolkTruther will argue ‘Yes-er’ and Robert will argue “Yes-est’.”

Then there’s my fav: “How does Obama compare with Bush?  Sleeper will argue ‘The Same’, Robert will argue ‘Worse’, PatrickHenry will argue ‘Worser’ and Folktruther will argue ‘It doesn’t matter, they are all wicked anti-Marxists’.”

Can’t stand the heat? Go post on page 6 or page 12!

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By truedigger3, February 6, 2009 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Most of the people here don’t take you seriously
anymore or pay attention to your drivel and rantings.
So, why don’t you take howard , Inherit the W and
go away and have a party together.

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By Sleeper, February 6, 2009 at 6:50 am Link to this comment

When I was a young man and ended up at Paris Island I was indoctrinated into a Brotherhood.  It was hard to adjust to in the beginning.  When I was an adolescent I was pretty much a spoiled brat.

I found something in the Corps that is Honorable.  It takes dedication and it takes Faith.  The Moto is Semper Fidelis (Always Faithful).

Since then I have become more political and have found the schemes in our Government to be lacking Honor.  Bootcamp teaches basic infitry skills, but I spent most of my 4 years in a 46 squadron.  That community is special and we all became tight.

I was athletic but far from a bully more of an enforcer who would stick up for the underdog.

Since I became inactive as a jarhead I have come to learn that people are more alike then they are different.  I have sympathy for them.  Our shadow government has been infidels toward the citizens of the United States, and even to our Constitution.  If we were more Honorable and True to our claims then I think we could find PEACE. 

Our Secret opperators have sabataged efforts at peace consistantly while our servicemen and women often believe in the service and sacrifice they make.  They are niave and god bless them for believing, but we cannot continue to give our home grown criminals carte Blance.

When I became an adult under fire it became time to put away childish things.  Our Congress is full of to many who never grew up.  They have never been accountable for the evil they progress and it would be far more niave to believe they only hurt our enemies. 

Most often they are more of an enemy then the people they call our enemies.  Its all for Greed.  They always need more and they will take it from taxpayers in order to continue the need for weapons that they will sell to anyone with something to offer (money, drugs, favors) anything.

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By Shenonymous, February 6, 2009 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

Since none of the pro-Hamas commenters have ventured an answer to my question about the Arab empire, I will provide an answer.
If you are honest in wanting to know the truth (the opposite of trooth) you might read the article at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/weekinreview/18worth.html
From a much longer article, here is one comment found in the revealing article.
On January 17, Robert F. Worth NTY wrote about the Arab empire.
“Why the Arabs Splinter Over Gaza
Most Arab regimes are terrified of Islamist movements like Hamas, which represent the greatest threat to their legitimacy. Many, including Egypt and Jordan, face challenges at home from their own popular versions of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas’s ideological parent. Most Arab leaders are also reluctant to provoke the United States and Israel (with which Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties).”

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By truedigger3, February 6, 2009 at 4:11 am Link to this comment

Hi sleeper,

I almost came to the belief that you were satiring,
but you are really serious in your faith in Obama
and his CHANGE.
I hate to rain on your parade, but in my humble opinion all the indications and signs point to there will be no change. All you will get is hot air and good oratory and some cosmetic change but no substance.
Look at his behaviour with the banksters, he appointed the same people who got us in this mess!!
Look at his defense and foreign policy team. Again
no new fresh faces and the same ole same!!
He said he will close Gittmo in the “FUTURE!” but kept the other secret prisons and secret renditions!
No word on trials for the men under due process.
He did not appoint a single TRUE liberal in his cabinet.
One outcome of Obama election is that the civil
right, progressive movemnts were neutered and I do
not know for how long.!!

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By Sleeper, February 6, 2009 at 12:54 am Link to this comment

Hey Digger,

I may be niave.  I have been so before.  I allowed myself to believe in some things about the charactor of men.

I hope for the best.  I want to believe.  I have lived too long distrusting those who rise to power.  I am tired of being skeptical.  Common Sense dictates that there can be a livable outcome from the fruits of our labor.

Corporations can be made to serve the community, the employees and the best interrests of this nation ahead of their dedication to the bottom line and shareholders earnings.  The men and women who make up any corporation or industry can be made to be the sole and valid voices that any corporation or industry can use to influence policy.  That was the way it was in the beginning of this Great Experiment so should it be now.

Obama’s get serious speach is what the situation requires.  Holder should announce intent to appoint at least one Independent Procecutor and then I bet the Boys club might get pretty nervous.  Cover your ass activity might tame the unruly in both houses.

Someone needs to stand up for the hard working Americans who have so often been sold out by their own government.  It has been them who have paid the price day after day building this nation only to have their pension plans dwindle just as the workers are beginning to think about retirement.

The Show Must Go On!!!

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By Sleeper, February 5, 2009 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

truthdigger,

Probably about the same time you realize the changes that are in motion at this time.

The party assisted his rise.  He put some in the spotlight and they have been found to be lacking.  On the military/defense side.  Many things have changed.  Opposition in intelligence was purged under Bush.  Panetta will need to identify agents and forces that will serve their new commander in chief and the Constitution.  They have foggoten about the latter.  Obama must hold their asses to the fire in their CYA social club.

By design the Constitution ensures that the nation does not respond quickly to fads.  It took a long time for Cheney to advance the belief he learned during the Nixon administration that if the President does it it is legal.  I don’t subscribe to that belief nor does the majority of the people, although the past administration got away with it for 8 years.

It will take persistance, determination and actions to get our crop of legislative criminals to waiver on their elitist views.

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By truedigger3, February 5, 2009 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

To “sleeper”,

You wrote:“until Obama influenced by polls of the peoples commitment to ending sensless Wars Sponsored by Global Corporate entities will hold to his promises and fill those seats with men who will carry out his orders..”

When will you do stop day-dreaming and fantasizing and building castles suspended in the thin air??!!

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By Sleeper, February 5, 2009 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment

It is a transition.  In with the new and eventually out with the old.  The House all needs to be reelected in less then 2 years and also a third of the Senate.  “We The People” Are Watching.

The dragging of the feet by Betray us and Gates is showing.  They will argue policy until Obama influenced by polls of the peoples commitment to ending sensless Wars Sponsored by Global Corporate entities will hold to his promises and fill those seats with men who will carry out his orders..

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By truedigger3, February 5, 2009 at 6:16 am Link to this comment

To “sleeper”,

You wrote:“He kept Gates and Petraus around for a reason”

What is that reason?!
It is obvious you are insisting in seeing in Obama
what you were looking and hoping for instead of what
he really is.
With his cabinet choices especially in defense,
foreign policy and economy, business will be as
usual in Washington DC and the CHANGE you were
expecting will not materialize.
With the exception of some cosmetic changes and
make-belief bullshitting, Obama will be a continuation of Bush because both of them are
beholden to big Money/Business and are following its
script.

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By Sleeper, February 5, 2009 at 2:38 am Link to this comment

I found Part #3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3BIXcQz_o&feature=related

This one introduces you to cluster bombs and talks about the U.S. being the major manufacturer and distributor of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGwMYEDDRTc&feature=channel

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By Sleeper, February 5, 2009 at 1:40 am Link to this comment

Here are 3 of a 4 part series:

Obama and the Middle East Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpdOamb4On8&eurl=http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/020309c.html&feature=player_embedded

Obama and the Middle East Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3v7v7xABys&eurl=http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/020309c.html&feature=player_embedded

Obama and the Middle East Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SSF0d-8398&eurl=http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/020309c.html&feature=player_embedded

I think these ideas need some support.  Transparency will come only if the People demand it.  They will never defend it if we argue about the lack of intention before Due Process has been given time to act at its own speed.

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By Sleeper, February 5, 2009 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

To “sleeper”,

Obama promised to withdraw ALL troops from Iraq.
But if people paid attention and listned carefully,
what he “promised” is withdrawing only COMBAT troops
and leaving the rest of the troops in outside the cities in their bases. But even that was contingent
on the situation in the ground and the advice of the
Generals in the field.
It was all IMHO campaign bull-shitting and promises.
He is the commander in chief and he has the final word, but now he wants to renege on a campaign promise and blame it on the Generals. Sound familiar.
They made me do it. Typical political bull-shitting.!!

I don’t believe there is any bullshitting.  Maybe you would like everything done yesterday, well sometimes I wish things went that way too.  They don’t, they never will and they are not suppose to.  Our Constitution works just fine.  It is dynamic.  It has been subverted and possibly unsurped, yet is is still standing.

He kept Gates and Petraus around for a reason.  He gave them an order and of course they are dragging their feet.  Who’s The Boss?  Who will the People defend?  He can fire either or both at a moments notice and replace them with someone who will give him what he wants.  His Attorney General was just confirmed.  Due Process is one thing that has been missing for far too long.  The cast is still being introduced.  The People have more input now then they have had in decades.

I think that if he lets these two show their hands they will eventually be replaced.  There will be great reductions in our presence in Iraq.  There will be a build up in Afghanistan, however, if our mision is to seek out Bin Laden and then we assist Afghanistan in a genuine effort to find another source of sustenience other then poppy cultivation and distribution, then they may be able to form their government into one that governs less oppressively then the Taliban influence.

That senario may not be perfect, but I find it a much better focus then we have used thus far.


I happen to be extremely disloyal myself to Zionist militarism and Madoff neoliberalism, which the American power system now embodies, and I endorse Gore Vidal’s suggestion of conveniog a Constitutional Convention under article 5 of the American Constitution, to rearrange the American power system, and to overthrow the crooks, murderers and liars that now control it.

If this is treason, let’s make the most of it.

Thats far from Treason.  I don’t believe we need to open up the Constitution to the influence that has given us the perversions of its intent that we have witnessed since Corporation were declared “Persons”.  Some serious investigations followed by inditements would possibly have us revisit the Constitutionallity of the Federal Reserve.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Sorry Amon—it was Folktruther who claims our freedom of speech doesn’t really exist….while he’s exercising it.

What’s wrong with this picture?

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

The central value necessary for political, economic and culural democracy is not Freedom of Speech, but freedom of seditious communication, wich has never existed in any power system in history. the learned and mass media and other truth organs are always controlled by the powerful and always constrained to serve their power interests.  They generate a mainstream truth consensus formulated from the perspective of power, notably class power, which de-emphasizes to the point of exclusion those truth assertions that subvert it.

Freedom of speech is an empty fraud if there is no one to commuicate to, like the Freedom Pens or Freedom Zones that the police herd protesters in away from the population.  Media truthers in the mainstream truth organs have children to feed and miseducate like everyone else, so must toe the ideological line to keep their jobs and pursue a truth career.  Consequently the conceptual language that emerges to convey the mainstream truth is formulate to flatter power and,largely implicitly, to demean and denigrate the population.

the problem is especially acute in barbaric corrupt and obsolete power systems like the US power system, which is in the last stages of its rule.  The mainstream truth traditon is so corrupt that a people’s truth tradition has begun forming historically.  It unites libertarian freedom with socialist equality, the left and right wings of the Amereican truth consensus, to form a new symthesis.  What it will turn out to be historically remains to be seen.  But what is obivious is that it will be seditious of mainstream institutions and truths.

the main enemy of the this emerging truth consensus is fear.  I didn’t realize this fully until Shenonymous tried to frighten me to stop asserting seditious truths.  In reality it helped me to realize that my views were not sufficiently seditious and combative enough, possibly because I scare so easily. 

Shenonymous maintains implicitly that what is good for Israel is good for the US, this being the subtext of the Zionist-implemented mainstreaam American truth.  As Americans begin to understand how the American power system hasw been captured by Zionist militarism and Madoff neoliberalism, the only defense of the American power structure will be the militarized police state constructed by Bush-Obama.  In which case the seditioous truth will penetate the consciousness of the American people more easily, making freedom of communication more of a reality.

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By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

You can brush off free-speech as non-existent in the Arab world as if it were a piece of lint on your shoulders, Amon Drool.  That only says you are an apologist for the Islamists.  They have had over 1350 years to see the inherent value in free speech and it being an inalienable right which is why they resort to murder to suppress it.

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By Amon Drool, February 4, 2009 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

last nite, while looking over this thread, i noticed that folk mentioned that shenon had reccommended transferring the populations of gaza and the west bank to other areas in the arab world.  i went to that thread and found shenon battling everyone there except ozark michael.  she kept on bringing up free speech.  she told the “miscreants” who were rebutting her arguments that they weren’t showing proper respect for the right of free speech.  she kept this tack up on almost all her posts.  no one there had called for her removal from TD or denied that she had a right to keep on posting.  vigorous and sometimes rude opposition to her mideast views had become anti-free speech to her way of thinking. if she’s offended that i refer to her free speech canard as a screech, well, so be it.

on another point, one would have to be blind to not admit that the anglo tradition of free speech is one of the finest contributions to mankind.  i certainly wish that it had taken a deeper hold in the arab world.  that said, it has to be assimilated into a culture…not shock and awed into it.  and hopefully, esposure to the internet will hasten this assimilative process.

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By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi I contacted CD on your behalf!  You complained soundly and you had a perfect right to. But you were banished from the site.  It is a reprehensive policy that both CD and TD has to edit comments.  Unless someone is using the forums to curse expletives incessantly and with few if any other kinds of words in their posts, it is not a shortening of someone’s free speech, it is putting someone out of their misery.  I’ve said all I am going to say about this and you can believe whatever you like.  Far as I know you have never said unkind things to me or about me.  We may disagree about Gaza.  I respect you to have your view and I have a right to mine whether it is respected or not.  That is what civilized people do. 

Amon Drool you must be drooling acid in your own brain.  The only one screeching on this forum is yourself.  You ought to stop sitting on a hot poker.  You obviously need a critical reading class.  And yes free speech is an immutable ontological given right.  If it is found to the degree it is guaranteed in the United States any where else, do the George Carlin thing and “share” it with everyone.  You won’t find it.

Let’s see, the United States have had had that freedom since 1791 (try to get a copy of the Bill of Rights).  It is now 2009.  Are you saying the Middle East, who once boasted intelligensia, are 233 years behind the United States?  If you aren’t, I am!  A bit slow on the uptake aren’t they?  It is symptomatic of their Islamic view of humans who are not clerics or wealthy as grubs.  The Taliban are attempting to prevent the females from being educated as this forum wages its arguments.  It can only be imagined you agree with this latest extermination of human rights.  We all know Folktruther would agree.

I don’t have to find anything about the Islamic world that suppresses, no crushes, free speech.  Every murder they commit, and all the countries of the world where that has happened will agree, they provide the substance themselves for deserved censure of their inhumanity to man.  I have dared you to go to an Arab country and try to test that dingbat claim of mine.  You cannot find what is there staring everyone in the face. 

At every opportunity Fuktroother denigrates me and the United States.  It only shows where his loyalties are but there with the anti-Jewish/Zionists and pro-Hamas terrorists.  One wonders if he really was a Jew or half one as he claims, what the Jews did to him to make him hate them so much or he is just one of those self-loathing Jews that are fashionable these days.

Instead of constructive criticism, he is a Gog, a Destroyer of Worlds.  Yes do let’s hold our nose for the smell of freedom of speech, especially while he hypocritically exercises it.  Better watch where you step Folktruther you might get crap on your shoes.  He enjoys calling me a dingbat, and that is his style to call names when he is vacant of any thing of merit to say.  Well, as a street scrapper dingbat I can sling the excrement just a well.  I prefer to have a more refined interaction but I don’t set the tone.

Denigrate me, denigrate this country, and at the same time it is your poverty of mind that is at the bottom of it all.

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By KDelphi, February 4, 2009 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment

By vancemack, February 4 at 11:45 am #

“We reverse the Bush tax cuts, and, declare the “war n terror” a huge mistake.”

“How exactly is that going to pay for things or fix things? Increasing spending (which seems to be the new gov answer) and swelling government and giving money away like its crack isnt going to help things and neither is increasing tax burdens. Historically, when you increase the tax burden there is LESS spending…”

I hope you have some references for that, besides FOX, AEI, Heritage Found or Brookings..

I did not say we should ‘give away money”. From Reagan to Bush Jr. there has been vast cuts to govt programs, and, the country is worse off for it.

The money for war doesnt HAVE to be “spent anyway”—that is a choice!

“If we STOP the war n error today what does that net us? You realize of course that most of the military dollar figures for fighting the war on terror would be spent even during peacetime…right?”

I have typos because i have RA—screw you. How would spending on the “war on terror” be more if we declared there was no “war on terror” (war on drugs, war on hate, war on the poor ) They dont work!!

“Any clue what the repercussion of those two actions would be? Dollar savings? Where the money would go? Where the money HAS gone?” Does anyone?? (I suppose you think that you do) This is disaggrement of priorities. universal health care would be 1% of gDP.

“I dont think we solve ANYTHING by taxing the hell ut of people and then giving money away with no accounting. That is where we are headed…” It depends on yur definiton of “taxing the hell out of people”. The rich dont pay sh*t in taxes in this country, comparative to their incomes. Tax rates for the upper 2% are lower than at any time in our recent history.

That may be “where we are headed”, but, I was answering a question to someone to how to pay for social programs. I dont support tax cuts for anyone—-middle class either. They stimulate nothing. Its an excuse to buy votes.

“As for the report part…surely that wasnt intended for me…”

I “report” you, you “report” me, and, its censorhip. The so-called Left used to be against that…


NO, it wasnt intended for you. I answered a question as to how to pay for it. If you disagree as to whether we SHOULD that doesnt mean that we CANNOT. LIke I said, it is a matter of priorities. Yours are decidedly different form mine. Optimisticaly, it seems that more and more peoples’ priorities are shifting from killing to saving lives.

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By thebeerdoctor, February 4, 2009 at 1:46 pm Link to this comment

re: Amon Drool

Not that I can any way assuage your comfort level, all I can say is I quoted Dylan for the poetry. Although I am sure Mr. Zimmerman has to deal with his Jewish identity which probably makes him sympathetic to the Israeli “cause”, if that is what it is called. I really don’t take too much stock in that. He is a poetic songwriter who takes up themes that are righteous (anti-war, militarism) or not so righteous (Hurricane Carter, divorce from his wife). To quote another in his profession;
“I’m a songwriter, I do it for a living,
I can spin you a yarn as long as my arm,
I’m a songwriter.”
  Van Morrison
Performing entertainers get caught up in tumultuous current events, often revealing themselves to be highly misinformed. Poetry is often quoted regardless of the original circumstances, if they words apply to a current situation, whether it be Homer, Shakespeare, Robert Burns and yes Bobby Dylan. In the final analysis, it is the work that matters. Which probably explains why many Jewish musicians play Richard Wagner. The conductor Daniel Barenboim comes to mind. After conducting the Vienna Philharmonic New Year’s Day Concert, he said: “Let the New Year bring peace and most importantly justice to the Middle East.” Justice to the Middle East? That is something that President Obama is afraid to say.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/944235.html

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By Amon Drool, February 4, 2009 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

inherit…huh?  i’ve NEVER bitched about us not having free speech

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment

Amon Drool:
Shenonymous made no such implication.  She simply pointed out that you’d have a damn hard time finding an Arab nation that has free speech.  Which you will. And, as much as folks like you bitch that we don’t REALLY have free speech in the West, your bitchin’ about proves its existence.

Cann4ting—now you are getting ridiculous. Clandestine tunnels to violate a border have NOTHING in common with an agreed-upon plan to create a connection. If France had secretly bored the Chunnel to England as a way to get troops there, Britain would be justifiably pissed!  But since they did it together, it’s a joint operation.  What’s so hard to understand about that??????

I just got bored. Say what you will.

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By KDelphi, February 4, 2009 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

She—I dont remember it that way. I think you said that you had contacted someone at CD for someone else who was banned (its not uncommon there at all!), and said that they had said that they had a right to monitor their site. You said that you agreed. CD is a private non-profit, and, I am not sure that they do have that right. I dont see anyone trying to censor you here. I may remember it incorrectly. I do not save all posts..

I said that I appreciated your support before. I realize that things got heated on the sites about Israel/Gaza. Some made the argument very personal. I dont recall that I did.

I disagree with you on the Gaza issue. I saw some comments on one of those sites, written to you, that I said I thought were out of line. I dont expect you to agree with me on any issue because of it.

I believe in freedom of speech, absolutely. The posts I saw had a right to be there—I had a right to tell them that they were out of line and being childish and name-calling. I think that they hurt their own argument. I agreed with their central position (more extreme than mine, I think), but, thought that they were just hurting their argument. I also thought that they probably shocked you and hurt you(I wouldve been) even though you have probably never met them.

I just dont see that happening on this thread. I just see people disagreeing (I havent read all posts)

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By Amon Drool, February 4, 2009 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

beerdoc… with the direction this thread has taken, using a bob dylan quote has made me a bit uncomfortable.  google “neighborhood bully lyrics bob dylan” if you’re curious about why i would be.

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By vancemack, February 4, 2009 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi

“We reverse the Bush tax cuts, and, declare the “war n terror” a huge mistake.”

How exactly is that going to pay for things or fix things? Increasing spending (which seems to be the new gov answer) and swelling government and giving money away like its crack isnt going to help things and neither is increasing tax burdens. Historically, when you increase the tax burden there is LESS spending…

If we STOP the war n error today what does that net us? You realize of course that most of the military dollar figures for fighting the war on terror would be spent even during peacetime…right?

Any clue what the repercussion of those two actions would be? Dollar savings? Where the money would go? Where the money HAS gone?

I dont think we solve ANYTHING by taxing the hell ut of people and then giving money away with no accounting. That is where we are headed…

As for the report part…surely that wasnt intended for me…

I “report” you, you “report” me, and, its censorhip. The so-called Left used to be against that…

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By Amon Drool, February 4, 2009 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

jeezus!!!....what’s with all this screechimg from shenon about free speech.  is anyone here telling TD not to allow her to post.  most of us have a problem with what she’s been posting about the the mideast…not the fact that she’s allowed to post.

and she treats free speech like it’s some kinda immutable ontological given, only found in the enlightened west.  does she really think people “pre-greece” never discussed or had ideas about self-expression and free speech?  i’m just trying to say that free speech is evolving (or de-volving) like everything else.  and i’ll agree…arab counties are generally behind the west when it comes to free speech.  i’m pretty sure lebanon was good on free speech until their recent last few troubled decades.  and whatever small arab country (qatar?)that allows al jazeera to criticize other arab regimes is certainly moving in a free speech direction.

shenon thinks she’s found some kind of anti-free speech essence in the arab “mind”...and then willfully disregards any tendency or potential for change.

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By thebeerdoctor, February 4, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

re: folktruther

“If my thought dreams could be seen
They’d probably stick my head in a guillotine.”
  Bob Dylan, It’s Alright Ma

It does make me wonder whether the dingbats who appear on these sites are not employed by some disinformation campaign, who really knows?
Despite all the fear mongering (you know the Microsoft corporation modus operandi: FUD, or Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) anyone who has been involved with the internet knows there really are no secrets here. If you think your e-mails are truly private, well think again. Which makes the Shenon cudgel of “you don’t know anything about me” rather amusing, because I do not think she realizes that nobody particularly cares.
Peace, and that my friend is an open book.

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By cann4ing, February 4, 2009 at 9:41 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 3 at 5:44 pm #

Face it: Your fundamental assumption is ANY action by Hamas is OK, and NONE by Israel is, no matter the circumstances.
_______________________

Ridiculous!  I “never” said I approved of Hamas rocket attacks or, for that matter, “any” form of violence by either side.  What you and, for that matter, the US corporate media choose to ignore is the condemnation of Israel for the blockade of Gaza, a blockade responsible for 230 deaths in the year leading to the current conflict; a blockade which Richard Falk, the U.N. Special Rapporteur for Human Rights has described as a “crime against humanity.” Falk, who is Jewish, likened the status of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto during the early stages of WW II.

Chris Hedges, in an earlier Truthdig article, quoted Falk: “It is an unfolding humanitarian catastrophe that each day poses the entire 1.5 million Gazans to an unspeakable ordeal, to a struggle to survive in terms of their health. This is an increasingly precarious condition. A recent study reports that 46% of all Gazan children suffer from acute anemia. There are reports that the sonic booms associated with Israeli overflights have caused widespread deafness, especially among children…. Malnutrition is extremely high in a number of different dimensions and affects 75% of Gazans. There are widespread mental disorders, especially among young people without the will to live. Over 50% of Gazan children under the age of 12 have been found to have no will to live.”

You seem so troubled by tunnels—think their very existence warrants murderous reprisal by the superior force of the IDF.  If that is justification for such a murderous assault, would you argue that the Nazis had a right to murder the Jews of Warsaw when they too resorted to tunnels to smuggle in food, medicine and small arms?  How ironic that the former victims have now become the perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Not all Israelis seem all that troubled by tunnels.  Consider:  “Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak proposed on Monday linking the Gaza Strip with the occupied West Bank by digging a thirty-mile tunnel through Israeli territory. In a campaign speech, Barak said he would press for a two-state solution to Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians if he is chosen as prime minister. When asked how Gaza, a coastal enclave home to 1.5 million Palestinians, separated from the West Bank by Israeli territory, could be made a part of a Palestinian state, Barak replied that the regions could have an underground link. He suggested one of the shortest routes would be some thirty miles long, stretching from the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun to Dura, near the West Bank city of Hebron.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/3/headlines#11

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By thebeerdoctor, February 4, 2009 at 9:28 am Link to this comment

What? She Who Must Be did not understand the reference. Cinderella? Think again anonymous, that is a reference to the pulp novel SHE by H. Rider Haggard, immortalized by Leo Mckern as Horace Rumpole, in Rumple Of The Baily, referring to his wife Hilda. As for your other illuminating points, well, as an asinine cretin, I am unqualified to respond to such spigots of truth.

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

BeerDoctor—Shenonymous raises a crucial point as to why the American people are so deluded and clueless.  Americans are afraid to think seditious thoughts because we are afraid to tell seditious truths.  the American power structure has tried to make them illeagal throughout our history and volenteers like Shenonymous have identified with the American power system to help make people afraid to subvert the mainstream truth.

And this fear is diffused under the guise of Freedom of Speech.  Freedom of Expression is one of the central power delusions of American ideology becaue the learned and mass media endorse it in theory while making people afraid to practice it. As Mark Twain put in SCRETES OF THE GRAVE:

  “Murder is forbidden both in form and fact, free speech is granted in form but forbidden in fact.  By common estimate both are crimes, and are held in deep odium by all civilized people.”

Shenoymous tries to maintain this fear but avering that I would be put in prison if the authorities knew who I am.  Believe me, they know.  But I am White and bourgeois and they prefer to harrass the non-White working class.  As does Shenon.  As she says, she would be proud to serve as a provocateur for the government, trying to get people to say and do things that they could be imprisoned for.  Excuse me, Detained.

Unfortunately this fear sleaze is a little dated; it is not sedition that is now the main fear threat, but Terrorism, what she in effect accused you of.  Fortunately Shenonymous is a political dingbat so it hardly matters what she says, but she serves a useful function in bringing attention to FEAR as means of ideologically repressing seditious truth. 

It is not incidential that the legal acts of sedition were passed in both WW1 and WW2 by Democratic adminstirations, and the prosecution of Communists after WW2 was also conducted by Dems, including the imposition of Loyality Oaths.

I happen to be extremely disloyal myself to Zionist militarism and Madoff neoliberalism, which the American power system now embodies, and I endorse Gore Vidal’s suggestion of conveniog a Constitutional Convention under article 5 of the American Constitution, to rearrange the American power system, and to overthrow the crooks, murderers and liars that now control it.

If this is treason, let’s make the most of it.

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By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

Well Cinderella thebeerdoctor, calling me “She Who Must Be Obeyed,” now you have the right attitude!  Do put those tight shoes on. 

Did you ever notice that the FBI nor the gov’mint nevah convicted Dr. King of any protest, and they did put him in jail a few times.  And although they tried to get him on tax evasion, a remarkable thing happened.  Did you know that on May 28, 1960, only after a few hours, Dr. King was acquitted by an all white jury in Montgomery, Alabama.  This was the right decision.  I happen to have his Letter from a Birmingham Jail.  Do you?  I fully believe he should never have been prosecuted nor put in jail for speaking out against the government.  He never called for violence against the government.  He was a true hero.  Anyone who would deny this and accuse me of lying about his noble cause is the vermin they act like.  Just remember his would not have had the outcome in Montgomery in any Arab country. If you think he would have, please give evidence.  He would have not even had a trial.  He would have been killed outright.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 9:04 am Link to this comment

You’ve obviously been drinking too much of your own medicine!

thebeerdoctor, February 4 at 6:06 am #

Well it is obvious that “She Who Must Obeyed” never took the trouble to look at the link concerning Dr, King. If She (who must, lest we cretins forget) had, would have noticed that the United States government did not care what the Reverend’s intentions were, the FBI and the entire Justice apparatus were out to destroy him, especially when he had “the fierce urgency of now” and oppose the slaughter in Vietnam, by also pointing out that the Us. Government was the “greatest purveyor of violence in the world”.
*****************************************************

Nothing Shenonymous said relates to that.  What she DID say is that because of his methods, very different than Hamas’s, King achieved the MORAL HIGH GROUND that eventually allowed his non-violent methods to succeed. She didn’t say one word about whether the FBI took off after him—She knows and you know and I know that they did exactly that.  I have no idea how you inferred what you did from her post.

****************************************************
But I guess She (the bright one) never reckoned with the notion that the very same government considered that to be seditious speech… ask Johnson, Nixon or J. Edgar Hoover… and were absolutely determined to destroy him.
And you are so bloody naive as to believe that only Arabs are denied free speech? The asinine cretin asks: how ignorant is stupid?

****************************************************

Pretty damn stupid.  Please show me where Shenonymous said ONLY Arabs are denied free speech. I’ll tell you where—in your imagination.  In fact, however, in almost all the Arab states, dissent is a crime.  Only in the Palestinian state, from time to time, and in Lebanon, from time to time, is dissent allowed.  Any other dissent in any other state, must be very, very mild, if allowed at all.

But nowhere did Shenonymous say it was EXCLUSIVELY an Arab problem.

Definitely too much beer.

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By thebeerdoctor, February 4, 2009 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

Well it is obvious that “She Who Must Obeyed” never took the trouble to look at the link concerning Dr, King. If She (who must, lest we cretins forget) had, would have noticed that the United States government did not care what the Reverend’s intentions were, the FBI and the entire Justice apparatus were out to destroy him, especially when he had “the fierce urgency of now” and oppose the slaughter in Vietnam, by also pointing out that the Us. Government was the “greatest purveyor of violence in the world”. But I guess She (the bright one) never reckoned with the notion that the very same government considered that to be seditious speech… ask Johnson, Nixon or J. Edgar Hoover… and were absolutely determined to destroy him.
And you are so bloody naive as to believe that only Arabs are denied free speech? The asinine cretin asks: how ignorant is stupid?

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By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

Thank you thebeerdoctor for repeating what I say.  Don’t you worry your limited thinking resources about “poor Shenonymous.”  She has now become inured with the gangbanging.  The theater you and your cronies provide continues to be entertaining.  Thank you for admitting to your troll proleness.  Thank you for your compliment of my having not just suprerior wisdom, which I have, but as having “far” superior wisdom, which I have.  You use a television pop-psychologist as a witness.  How funny.

But I do have issues that is for certain.  And it has to do with free-speech.  Which you and your troll proles would suppress, and suppress forcefully, violently, if you had the opportunity.  So you use the vilest language.  Your right, and I would fight to the death for you to have that right.  Can you say that?  NO!  Emphatically NO.

Oh I don’t mind answering questions, but you never gave a coherent one about my Dr. Martin Luther King.  I’ll repeat it here:  I said, “There is nothing wrong with a peaceful revolution as Martin Luther King, Jr. proved.  But you never heard him say America must be destroyed.  And his pacifism obviously worked in as predominantly a rednecked nation as was the US. The election of Barack Obama showed that peaceful politics can work.”  That is what I said.  And you wish to denigrate that!  There is a tinge of nazism in your aspersion.

If anything is tiresome, it is the pro-Hamas terrorist shills on this forum and others that attempt to subjugate those who dare to speak against you.  I live in America and have the right to free speech.  Unfortunately for the Arab people, they do not have such a right.

To get back to the article, I agree with Mr. Sheer’s brief examination and to say we have to wait to see how President Obama works his way through a somewhat antagonistic Congress brought about by lockstep Republicans.  They are extremely sore at losing the election in every quarter and we know they will do everything to subvert Obama’s success.  Their voices are needed, however, to provide sober analysis and brakes about what will fix the financial crises.

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By truedigger3, February 4, 2009 at 6:05 am Link to this comment

To “sleeper”,

Obama promised to withdraw ALL troops from Iraq.
But if people paid attention and listned carefully,
what he “promised” is withdrawing only COMBAT troops
and leaving the rest of the troops in outside the cities in their bases. But even that was contingent
on the situation in the ground and the advice of the
Generals in the field.
It was all IMHO campaign bull-shitting and promises.
He is the commander in chief and he has the final word, but now he wants to renege on a campaign promise and blame it on the Generals. Sound familiar.
They made me do it. Typical political bull-shitting.!!

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By thebeerdoctor, February 4, 2009 at 3:20 am Link to this comment

Poor Shenonymous claims she is being gangbanged by those posters on this site who refuse to yield to her far more superior wisdom. Time and again she uses her unknown motives and vocation as a cudgel to prove her vast intellect to us dumb, unfeeling, little troll proles. As far as the gangbanging remark, well it is probably best to leave that to television’s Dr. Phil, who most likely would say: “I think you have some issues to deal with.”
Rather curious eh? Despite calling my comments asinine, and me a cretin, you never answer what is being questioned about your statement. Which is what I notice time and again reading your comments, which I will no longer take the trouble to read. But as I said you had the audacity, I should have said chuztpah, to mention Martin Luther King Jr., in your tiresome screed on sedition. That is this cretin’s reaction.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/31/mlk.fbi.conspiracy/

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By Inherit The Wind, February 3, 2009 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

Cann4ting,

Now who’s playing semantics?...A tunnel exists to smuggle arms into Gaza from Israeli soil. Israel chooses to destroy the tunnel, not just the small chunk on their side…Excuse but either Israel is either within their rights acting in Gaza or not.  If the cease-fire is broken by Hamas, then attacking the tunnels if justified.

The only attack on generals in a hotel I know was BY Palestinians AGAINST Israeli generals.

But you know as well as I do that Hamas has deliberately set up HQs in the midst of population so they can get the propaganda value if Israel then retaliates.  Saying they can’t is YOUR swiss cheese argument.

How about knocking off the insults and coming back with logic?  Your saying my argument is full of holes don’t mean squat if you can’t prove it—and you can’t.

Face it: Your fundamental assumption is ANY action by Hamas is OK, and NONE by Israel is, no matter the circumstances.  Recognize that this is your truth and let it set you free.

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

Until Lex talionis reared its ugly head, and we can dish out like for like as miserably as would those who strike the first blow, it was only commented that there is culpability on both sides of the war in Gaza, then the gang slaughter of Shenonymous commenced.  I declare that freedom of speech is sacred and I get slammed for it by the obvious pro-Hamas terrorist sympathizers.  You have certainly noted She does not lie down so easily.

I would be proud to work as a provacatuer for the US government.  I happen to like living here regardless of the boils it has now and then. 

I have no argument cann4ing, about the example you gave. Peaceful protestors need protection, which our country has not provided very well in the last 8 years.  I happen to believe George Bush was the enemy of the United States in his preemptive war on Iraq, and I have stated as much several times but no matter there is such selective amnesia.  I would agree with the courts that section 2381 should not be applied. The First Amendment protection of free speech must be preserved but it must be protected legally. The Constitution provides for legal redress.  The Preamble of the Declaration of Independence states to “...secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.”  There are now legal limitations.

There is classic argument whether the right of revolution is an individual’s right or a collective one.  While John Locke declared that natural law gives people the right to life, liberty, and property, they could instigate a revolution against the government when it acted against the interests of citizens and could replace that government, and though Locke determined that revolution is an obligation, it was essentially a safeguard against tyranny.  There has to be first of all proved that the government is oppressive and against the citizens.  When there is disagreement among the citizenry a different ball game ensues.  The American Revolution exercised peoples’ “duty” to rebel because of the oppression of the despotic King of England.  To overturn the government today would take 50 states to participate and most states if not all, required dire preconditions.  What those preconditions are I suggest you all do your own homework.  I do not pretend to have great knowledge of the law, you certainly outdistance me by 10,000 miles and probably thirty years Mr. Canning.  But having had more than a decent education, (regardless how arguable by some miscreants here) I have some knowledge and I may introduce what I’ve learned.  Erudition is not venerated by those here.

The Constitution provides for citizens to change the government by a number of means, including:
*running for office
*voting
*protesting and otherwise bringing pressure on elected officials
*taking issues to court.
*impeachment of officials who have broken the law.

This is true only as long as the citizenry remain active and involved in the affairs of the nation.  The times when a violent overthrow of government is justified are few and far between—and may apply ONLY after all other efforts have failed.

Correct me if you must, Mr. Canning. Correctness always outweighs any personal care on my part.

It is not surprising that thebeerdoctor has joined in the gangbanging exercises against me, ho hum, you all are getting quite boring.  You haven’t the slightest idea what I do, who I work for, what I care about, or what I know.  If there are any cretins here, and there are plenty, you are among them.  Your tirade is by far as ridiculous as your bedbuddies’.  But I would fight for the right for you to say what you want.  I also have the right to point out your asininity.

Let the fun begin again.

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By thebeerdoctor, February 3, 2009 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment

Well I guess it has been revealed who Shenonymous actually works for. Her quoting the sedition law reveals what an ignoramus she is to what the government means by overthrowing the government. She has the audacity to mention Martin Luther King Jr., and claims that is the right and peaceful way to go about changing the government. Never mind that the same government whose law she so valiantly quotes, did in fact think of MLK as a seditious entity, or haven’t you looked at the FBI archives? Is she so blind as to believe that a government that always resorts to ultimate violence actually makes a distinction between non-violent civil disobedience and violent subversion. Tell that to the thousands of activists who have been fraudulently jailed and harassed simply for advocating something contrary to the usual murderous policies.
Not only are peace activists taken as a threat, but poor people, people trying to secure workers’ rights, environmentalists, and advocates for housing and seniors. It does make you wonder whether this ridiculous poster is not in fact a government paid provocateur. But no, I do not believe so. She is not sharp enough of a tool to be in the Homeland Security shed.

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By cann4ing, February 3, 2009 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, February 2 at 8:22 pm #

Yeah, if a general sets up his HQ in a hotel in a populated town, he’s setting the civilians up to be targets—either he doesn’t know it and he’s incompetent or he does know it and he’s morally reprehensible.

Excuse me, but the TUNNELS went from Gaza to Israel, right?  So just how do you explain why Israel shouldn’t destroy them?
________________________________

I am wondering, ITW, whether you are a piece of Swiss cheese.  There are sure a lot of holes in your logic. 

First, my hypothetical said nothing about a general setting up HQ in a civilian hotel.  If an American general is invited to meet the president at the White House and while in DC that general stays at a civilian hotel that doesn’t transform the hotel into a military target.  Any al Qaeda nut case who sought to blow up the hotel in order to get at the general would be committing a terrorist act, pure and simple!  And it would not be any less a terrorist act if the person who ordered it was the head of a foreign state.

Second, aside from the illegality of the Israeli effort to starve the people of Gaza by way of the blockade, I would have no problem if Israel, acting on its own soil, had sealed the tunnel.  That is not what occurred.  The IDF launched a preemptive military strike on the tunnel inside Gaza.  That was a direct violation of the cease fire.  It also happened to be, as revealed by Haaretz, intended as a provocation—and it worked!  The dummies at Hamas took the bait, launched their rockets and provided Israel with the flimsy excuse it was looking for.

Shenonymous—you correctly cite the content of Title 18, but the core question entails constitutionality as it is applied in a particular case.  For example, if, at the outset of the invasion of Iraq, a peaceful protester were arrested and charged with treason under section 2381 on the grounds that he/she stated that George Bush and not Saddam Hussein was the true enemy of the United States; that the president intentionally lied about WMD & links to 9/11, I suspect our courts would hold that section 2381’s aid and comfort provisions could not be applied to the protester without violating the First Amendment protection of free speech.

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By Sleeper, February 3, 2009 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

Perhaps this article and video will give this discussion some food for thought:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/020309c.html

How Obama addresses this issue is very important.  Who’s The Boss?

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

Part 1 Freedom of Speech and the Law on Sedition

It is so funny KDelphi as I was one of the few if anyone else that championed your right to say anything on CommonDreams. Also saying so on this site, TD, and I championed who the former Ed Harges was (I will not give that name as I believe his right to anonymity is as sacred as free speech) by writing a letter to TruthDig.  But you and others love to have truncated memories so you can discredit me in any small way you can.  It’s all right, I keep track and a complete copy of all the forums I post on. 

And poor Folktruther if anybody ever finds out who he is, he could be prosecuted since sedition is against the law.  He found out the correct definition still he would like to foment a rebellion.  There is nothing wrong with a peaceful revolution as Martin Luther King, Jr. proved.  But you never heard him say America must be destroyed.  And his pacifism obviously worked in as predominantly a rednecked nation as was the US. The election of Barack Obama showed that peaceful politics can work.  Folktruther and his anti-American terrorists chums would like to destroy the only nation in the world that guarantees freedom of speech.  We know why and we won’t let him.  While it may not be specified in the Constitution, it is part of the United States Code.  Please see the second part to this comment.

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

Part 2 For Your Information – The Sedition Act – You may also find information in West’s Encyclopedia of American Law.

Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 115
CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
Title 18 of the US Code as currently published by the US Government reflects the laws passed by Congress as of Jan. 3, 2007, and it is this version that is published here.
# § 2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
# § 2382. Misprision of treason
# § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
§ 2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
§ 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government
Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

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By KDelphi, February 3, 2009 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

A private site (and, apparently, some public non-profit sites, as well) may have a RIGHT to censor posts, especially if it is stated in their rules. But, that doesnt make it “right”. (It is technical vs"moral”, although I rather hesitate to use the word, depending…)

She—I am surprised to hear you say that censoring a website is wrong, as it alters free speech, when, when I was “banned” at Common Dreams, you said that they had a right to monitor their site..I do remember that you wrote to them for me, and, I do appreciate that, so, maybe I have your past opinion incorrect.

People are ALLOWED to “report” others—-I just dont think that it is right.

I worry abut “seditious” speech being censored, because that can be pretty subjective. I mean, “i wish you would die” is not the same as “I will kill you”.

I just scroll right past certain names now—not many. But, after awhile, there is just no point. I just totally disagree with them, and, there is just no point in going round and round.

But, I have never “reported” anyone, and, I do not know what it would take to get mt to do it (I leave that condition in there—-rather than NEVER—as the pics I was sent—-which opened by themselves, again and again and again—from a neo-Nazi group, were terrifying.)

I still didnt turn them in to anyone.Theyre’ all over the web anyway.It wouldnt have changed anything—-they were war and police blotter photos, I’m sure of it.

Hell, they couldve been from a police officer!

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