Folktruther,

Check out the “scary Cheney” commentary on Rachel Maddow’s show. I think she’s the most serious progressive voice on television. I especially like her “scrub, rinse repeat” segment about cleaning up the corruption of the Bush administration. She hasn’t gotten as far as charging Cheney with 9/11, but she’s getting closer. I keep emailing her about it.

Even given that Obama has the best of intentions about restoring democracy(which is my optimistic assumption)it is very likely that he will give in to the pressure, and he will certainly not be able to succeed without massive popular support.   

          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/29023191#29023191

Tony Wicher—Yeah, your right, the Silverstein “pull it” and especially the BBC report that the third tower blew up before it actually did, was also a major public relations foulup. They also had to tell the firemen and police to get out of the building because it was going to explode, and this was also caught on film.  Since there has been many reports of survivors in the other towors of explosions comming from the basement, it makesw the whole official story is simply absurd.

But the mass media just don’t report it, like shots and smoke many people reported coming from the grassy knoll in the Kennedy assiassination.  Since the power structure got away with the those assassinations, it gave power confidence enough to try larger homicides.

Cheney is now predicting a mass destructive attack on a major city.  Since these attacks are assisted and orchestrated by elements of the US power system, there is really no way to prevent it.  Such an attack could procede the declaartion of martial law.  But they don’t realy need it yet since both Dem and Gop leaders are on their payroll.

Here’s an interesting 9/11 story from the NYT on Feb 1:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/business/media/02fx.html?ref=business

Will “9/11 conspiracy theory” it make it to the front page next?

Masters Of War,

by Bob Dylan

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin’
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it’s your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people’s blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You’ve thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain’t worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I’m young
You might say I’m unlearned
But there’s one thing I know
Though I’m younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death’ll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand o’er your grave
‘Til I’m sure that you’re dead

Re Folktruther

“My personal opinion is that the only bad foulup that occurred is that they had to shoot down the plane in Pa. which was suppossed to crash into the third tower.  They had to blow the tower up anyway although no plane crashed into it.”

Folkie,

I never thought of that one. I figured the destination of the one that got shot down was the Capitol Building and Rumsfeld’s control over the Pentagon and our air defense system was not quite sufficient to prevent someone from doing his job. But maybe you’re right. I thought the worst fuckup was Silverstein interviewed on National TV saying that he and the fire captain decided to “pull it”, stupidly forgetting that everyone would realize it takes weeks to set charges for a controlled demolition so they must have been there before the attack. If you are right that the third plane was supposed to hit WTC7, it would make sense that they had to blow the third building up anyway and had to make up some other cock-and bull story at the last minute to account for it. That was the best Silverstein could come up with on the spur of the moment. It fits. By the next day they just changed their story and none of the so-called government investigations (coverups) even questioned either Silverstein or any of the highly credible fire department people involved. 

“Well, also the Massad agents in the park positined BEFORE the attack stupidly dancing and high fiving as planes crashed into the buildings.  They were areested and sent back to Israel and the whole thing largely covered up, but the question of how they knew it was going to happen still exists.”

No doubt the interests of the Israeli miltary-industrial complex (which is pretty much the same thing as the Israeli state) were also served by 9/11. There is also no doubt that Pakistani intelligence is heavily involved. It was the Pakistani ISI that worked with the CIA in Afghanistan to oppose the Soviet Union in 80’s when bin Laden’s illustrious career began, that brought the Taliban to power in the mid-90’s, that has worked closely with the CIA ever since, and that sent 100 grand to Mohammed Atta shortly before 9/11, which he apparently spent on liquor, cocaine and lap dances before disappearing from sight.

Re Inherit The Wind, January 31 at 11:09 am

ITW,

Your laughter is just a defense mechanism. Have you watched that “Blueprint for Truth” video at ae911truth.org or not? Man, not only is the chemical signature of military thermate in the dust, but actual unexploded bits of thermate itself have been found in it.

Folkie,

I had strong suspicions of 9/11 a couple of years before I met cyrena, but it has been good to join forces with her. I never watched that Richard Gage video from ae911truth.org until recently, and that clinched it for me, because it concentrates on the scientific facts only and is presented by a qualified person. I am acting on the belief, or the hope, that Obama is not corrupt and really does mean to restore the Constitution and international law, and needs our help. While he is sending troops to Afghanistan to “stamp out al Qaida”, the real “al Qaida” is hiding not in Afghanistan but in his own intelligence apparatus. That includes the CIA, the NSA, 17 other intelligence agencies, the FBI and who knows what private “contractors” such as Blackwater, KBR and worse yet. Although these people are no longer in control of the presidency, they are obviously doing everything possible to undermine and compromise Obama. Who knows what they may have gotten hold of by now, tactical nukes, smallpox… we already know they have lots of anthrax.

“My personal opinion is that the only bad foulup that occurred is that they had to shoot down the plane in Pa. which was suppossed to crash into the third tower.”

Hmm..I’ve alwasy wondered why so few people accepted the blatently obvious on this one… I figured it was to “save feelings ” of victims and troops…

Anarcissie- While you are right that it would take only a relatively few people to implement a terrorist outrage, the 9/11-anthrax homicides were an very clever public relations stunt.  The PLANNING of that stunt, as high intelligence officals of Germany, Eygpt etc have publically stated, required a state agency many years and many people.

My personal opinion is that the only bad foulup that occurred is that they had to shoot down the plane in Pa. which was suppossed to crash into the third tower.  They had to blow the tower up anyway although no plane crashed into it.

Well, also the Massad agents in the park positined BEFORE the attack stupidly dancing and high fiving as planes crashed into the buildings.  They were areested and sent back to Israel and the whole thing largely covered up, but the question of how they knew it was going to happen still exists.

Tony Wicher-I’m glad Cyrena turned you on to the 9/11 truthers.  As for going to your congressman, good luck with that.  Argue for an investigation of ananswered questions.  Behind the bland words you will most likely get the same response as that of Inherit.  The implications are just too explosive for the US power system in its fragile state. And for Zionists, although apparently other intelligence agencies were involved as well.

Plus the EPA, FDA, DOE, AMA, ISO, IEEE, ICH, eCTD, CDISC because it’s all SOP.

Tony Wicher, January 31 at 8:41 am #

The FBI, CIA and the Mob have been working together since I was knee-high to a grasshopper, which was a long time ago.

And with the KGB, Mossad, KKK, NSDAP, ASPCA, PETA, PTA, BSA, GSA, BMW, NSU, M1-M9, Kuomintang, Tongs, Yakuza, and all on the QT.  So BYOB.

Re Folktruther, January 25 at 6:26 pm

Folktruther,

I am very happy we are on the same side on the matter of 9/11. Thanks for your support.

The FBI, CIA and the Mob have been working together since I was knee-high to a grasshopper, which was a long time ago.

By Anarcissie, January 27 at 6:26 pm #
If you like conspiracy theories about the FBI, None of it makes much difference anyway unless and until you’ve got hard, incontrovertible evidence that you can bring out in public on your own.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

Such absolutely hard, scientific incontrovertible evidence exists IN ABUNDANCE. That’s why this is not going to stay covered up much longer. Please obtain
“Blueprint for Truth: the Architecture of Destruction” by architect Richard Gage from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth
(ae911truth.org) and watch it.  I am making an appointment with my congressman to give him a copy and urge him to do the same. I urge everyone else to do the same.

By troublesum, January 26 at 11:16 am #
Folktruther,
If you knew something about the FBI you’d know that there isn’t an FBI agent who would get involved in a conspiracy to kill American citizens.

          x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x

Are you joking?

Yes, and trading on some of the exchanges was remarkably low on Monday, Sept. 10.  Tracing through the records, however, nothing stands out.  Conclusion: some kind of rumor or suggestion was passing around that it might be a good idea to hunker down or be out of town.  But, as I say, this doesn’t prove much.  The operation we know about required maybe 25 people at most, one with a lot of money but nothing astronomical, nothing governmental.  Modern urban social organization is highly vulnerable to very costly attacks by small numbers of people using rather primitive technology, especially if the perpetrators are willing to sacrifice their own lives.  Consider the nerve gas attacks in Tokyo, or the Oklahoma City bombing.

I didn’t say, Anaracissie, that this one incident DID show that the US government was involved.  there are thousands of incidents.  For example, Willie Brown and Salmon Rrusdie were both called the day before and warned not to fly on 9/11.  They didn’t and told about it.  One could understand this if one didn’t want celebraties with lots of connections to be killed, but I don’t think that Muslims Terrorists…  Well, there I go with magical thinking again.

But as long as you consider it possible, that’s something.  Nevertheless, many people in power consider it more than possible, and this has an inhibiting influence on probing into any previous malfeasance by Bushite.  Read the two books if you have time; you won’t regret it.

The 9/11 attacks were, of course, begun with a conspiracy, and quite a few people may have had some warning of them beforehand.  It doesn’t seem very far-fetched for one of the participants to have let some word drop to a friend to who called a business associate, etc., until a few people in the U.S. heard that something was going to happen around a certain time.  (An Israeli company hearing from Muslims doesn’t seem at all unlikely; many of them have Muslim employees.)  That does not make them fellow conspirators and perpetrators.  Nor does it show that anyone in the U.S. government was involved.

The theories offered here about 9/11 are seriously weakened with magical thinking and unsupported assertions, such as the two I have already disparaged.

Could the attacks have been the result of a conspiracy involving the highest levels of the U.S. government?  Sure.  Has any hard evidence been provided to support this proposition?  Not that I know of.  Meanwhile we already have violations of the law, including war crimes, committed more or less in the open, which should be the subject of an immediate investigation by a special prosecutor and a grand jury.

Anarcissie- 9/11 wasm’t covered up so much as the different parts were disconneced from each other so that it is difficult to get a coherent holistic overview.

For example, The main liberal paper of Israel,Haaretz, printed an article on 9/26/ 01 stating that the Israeli firm Odigo, based in NY near the Towers, received a warning two hours before the attacks.  The CEO, Micha Macover,  immediated informed Israel and the FBI.  But this incident, like so many others, was excluded from the American mainstream media.

There are hundreds of details lkie this which indicate that the atacks were not solely the behavior of the Nineteen Terrorists.  Surely you would not argue that Muslim Terrorists would warn an Israli firm of the attacks.

A large number of people need not be knowledgable of the overall plan, since intelligence operations are implemented on a need-to-know basis.  Opperatives are not told why they are doing some partular procedure or part of the plan, and if they guess afterwards, they are incriminated.  As well as knowing the consqeunces of talking.

It is true that this attack was unprecedented in scope, which is why there are an enormous number of loose ends that 9/11 truthers have put together to to form a coherant picture, so far as possible,  of plausable alternatives.

What is not plausable, or even possible, is the offical explanation.  It can’t have happened that way.  And this is not merely the opinion of us crazed conpiracy theorists, but of many others demanding a new investigation, including the two co-chairman of the last fake one.  Which, in my opinion, will never happen effectively while this form of the US power system is still functioning.

If you like conspiracy theories about the FBI, there’s always Code Name Zorro (http://www.amazon.com/Code-Name-Zorro-Mark-gregory/dp/0671811673) by Mark Lane and Dick Gregory, which argues that the FBI was involved in the assassination of Martin Luther King. And indeed, we know that the FBI was very hostile to King, and that strange things happened just prior to the assassination.

I don’t have as much trouble with these theories as I do with the 9/11 thing.  Certainly a small number of conspirators could have assassinated the Kennedys, King, Malcolm X, and so on, and it wouldn’t be so hard to cover up.  9/11 was on a different scale.  None of it makes much difference anyway unless and until you’ve got hard, incontrovertible evidence that you can bring out in public on your own.  Obviously, any investigation by the government or other ruling-class big deals will be just like the investigations which have already proved so unsatisfactory to so many of you.

So now it’s the FBI that was behind the attacks on the WTC?

Why the WTC? Why not the Capitol or the White House?  You know REALLY make it look like an attack on America.

You conspiracy bugs are getting really weird, you know.

It’s not like I’m a defender of the FBI: It’s just I think it’s pretty clear what their illegal activities and were not.

“If you knew something about the FBI you’d know that there isn’t an FBI agent who would get involved in a conspiracy to kill American citizens.”

Wrong.  It’s happened numerous times. The 1993 World Trade Center bombing is most glaring.

“The FBI guards its reputation very closely.  Even J Edgar Hoover balked at some of Richard Nixon’s schemes.  He refused to allow FBI agents to do Nixon’s dirty work.  The FBI has no loyalty to any president or any ideology.  That they would have been involved in the ‘95 bombing of the trade center[SIC] in not even remotely possible.
Can you name the FBI and Mossad agents who were involved and what the source of your information is?”

The New York Times.  Trial transcripts.

Egyptian army Colonel and undercover FBI provocateur Emad Ali Salem testified in open court that his FBI supervisors ordered him to provide real explosives to the targets.  These explosives killed six people.  Salem argued to replace the explosives with non-exploding “harmless powder.”  He was overruled.  The only reason this came out is because Salem was smart enough to tape record his FBI handlers as well as the targets, giving him evidence to use against the FBI after the attacks. 

So, you’re the one who knows not of what he speaks.

Who Bombed the U.S. World Trade Center? — 1993
Growing Evidence Points to Role of FBI Operative
By Ralph Schoenman
http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

The FBI routinely sets up groups with provocateurs who commit the crimes, and the targets of the sting take the rap.  That is SOP.

The FBI employed Ali Mohammad for years, an “Al Qaeda” mastermind who bombed US embassies in Africa.  The FBI also covers up terrorism, drug trafficking and other serious crimes, and they fire whistleblowers like translator Sibel Edmonds who try and alert the sleeping masses (like yourself) that this is going on.

If YOU knew something about how cover ups work, you’d be less likely to stick your foot in your mouth as you have done.

O.K.-WE voted for President Obama….He says things CAN CHANGE….A new period of TRANSPARENCY and RESPONSIBILITY…..

O.K….....Mr.President-....START WITH CITIGROUP…..NO MORE MONEY TO THEM….Let them sink or swim…all on their own…..Tell them “NO”!!!-They SHOULD NOT even RECEIVE government monies SINCE THEY HAVE ALL THIS EXTRA MONEY FOR THE JET….MAKE THEM GIVE IT ALL BACK….YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT….YOU CAN DO THAT…

Put me in CHARGE….I CAN AND WILL TELL THEM “NO”!!!!
I would have EVERYONE send me mail about their citiproblems….Then I would meet with “the idiots” and DUMP THOSE MAIL BAGS ON HIS DESK[talk about buried in paperwork]....I would have them arrested-for FRAUD[they said they were failing,then bought a JET?]-FRAUD is A CRIME….

AIG????They NEED TO GIVE BACK ALL THE FUNDS USED FOR “VACATION/SPA”....Again A CASE OF FRAUD…I AM NOT AFRAID TO TELL THEM-TO THEIR FACES-THEY ARE CROOKS….

Madoff?????What the FU*K is he doing ON THE STREET?????Is he TO GOOD TO BE PUT WITH THE OTHER “COMMON CRIMINALS”?????Strip HIM OF ALL ASSETS….SELL TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER….GIVE MONEY BACK TO THOSE HE STOLE IT FROM….I’m sorry[not] if his FAMILY has to “suck it up”....He needs to see them DESTITUTE from his position BEHIND BARS…

C’MON OBAMA…..PUT A STOP TO THE FURTHER HEMMORAGE of ASSETS DUE TO “OLE BULLSHITS” continued policies… 

Oh-Yeah-RE_PUKE_LIKINS….You need to GO LAY DOWN…..YOU ARE JUST GETTING IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS WITH YOUR CONTINUING INTERFERENCE!!!!!!!!

Get to work, thats damn right!!

We’ve got a whole country to fix and finally, the climate just might be right to do it!

I say go with the new energy and work to make things better!

There is real hope again.

You’re quite right, Troublesum, I don’t know much about the FBI, certainly not as much as you do.  So far from being non-political and law abiding, and FBI agents not having anything to do with even the suspcion of murder American citizens, I always assumed that the FBI was a murderous organization that not only murdered Americans, but was a secret police that illegally infiltrated and disrupted the women’s movment, civil rights organizations, racial movements for equality, legal socialist parties, and many other types of progressive organizations.

You’d better get over to Wikipedia and straigthen them out too, because they think the same thing.  Look under COINTELPRO, the murderous counter intelligence program that assassinated black leaders.

Chomsky says about the FBI’s COINTELPRO, in UNDERSTANDING POWER (p.118):

“It included the straight Gestapo-style assassination of a Black Panther leader; it included organizing race riots in an effort to destroy the black movements; it included attacks on the American Indian Movement; on the women’s movement, you name it….that meant regular FBI burglaries, stealing membership lists and using them to threaten people, going to businesses and getting people fired from their jobs, and so on.”

The Church Committee documented this lawlessness going back to WW1.  They probably don’t have you knowledge about the FBI either.

I see that trying to tell you about modern murderous attacks of 9/11 is quite impossible when you simply don’t know the history of past murderous attacks by the US power system on American citizens.  And you are one of the better truthers on TD.

Clearly Americans have a long way to go.

We should do this right and find out who really sunk the Main or maybe some of you can find some wind mills to chase. 

Obama has done more in 8 days than Bush did in 8 years, send in your pet peeves, I am sure Obama will fix them.

Folktruther,
If you knew something about the FBI you’d know that there isn’t an FBI agent who would get involved in a conspiracy to kill American citizens.  The FBI guards its reputation very closely.  Even J Edgar Hoover balked at some of Richard Nixon’s schemes.  He refused to allow FBI agents to do Nixon’s dirty work.  The FBI has no loyalty to any president or any ideology.  That they would have been involved in the ‘95 bombing of the trade center in not even remotely possible.
Can you name the FBI and Mossad agents who were involved and what the source of your information is?

It’s obvious, Troublesum, that you simply don’t want to know about 9/11-anthrax, but other TDers might.  You are quite right that it is inconceivable that Cheney-Rumsfield could have planned such a thing.  the planning, as high intelligence officals of German, Eygpt and other places have stated publically, required hundred of analysts planning over a sequence of years, i.e BEFORE the Bushites seized power. 

Most likely it was a continuation of a plan in place in the 1993 attack on the towers, which involved known FBI and Massad agents.  The explosives for that attack, it was documented,  was provided by an FBI asset who secretly recorded his discussions with his control.  The explosives were placed wrongly but were they well placed, they could have brought down the whole tower instead of killing and injuring less than a 100 people.

The US used Mossad agents to spy on the Muslims since they did not have enough Arabic speakers of their own.  Some of the agents were in a park taking pictures of the plane crashes, positioned BEFORE the incidents occurred.  They were delighted by the attacks, dancing and high fiving around, drawing the attention of other people in the park, who reported them.  They were arrested and held for months, then sent back to Israel without further public mention.

9/11 was a shock and awe publicity stunt, followed up by the anthrax scare to fiighten the American people to demand the governemnt protect them, the customary aim of false flag operations.  It initated the endless War on Terrorism which, until that time, Bush downplayed terrorism as an important role in foreign policy.

The American secret police were right on the ball however, giving the names of the 19 Terrorists who did the deed one or two hours after it happened.  It’s true that there were indignant protests from a number of them from around the world, stating that they were alive and weren’t terrorists, and the police agency retreated publically from its initial report.

No matter, the 19 Terrorists who did the deed became the public relations figure, and the number a mythical one, so much so that that when they tortured some poor guy, who was in prison during and for a couple of months previous to the attack, he was classified in the media as the Twentieth Terrroist. In his trial on capital charges it was obvios that he was at leasst partially demented.

I know that none of this matters to you, Troublesum, because you already know that the Bushites could not possibly be involved. But for those who don’t know it, an alternative scenario might appear more plausable. It does to us crazed conspiracy theorists.

Last update - 04:02 26/01/2009          

IDF rabbinate disseminated extremist propaganda during Gaza war

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

“During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media - and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane - were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.

Officers and soldiers reported that they felt “spiritually elevated” and “morally empowered” by conversations with rabbis who gave them encouragement before the confrontation with the Palestinians.
  Advertisement
But what exactly was the content of these conversations and of the plethora of written material disseminated by the IDF rabbinate during the war? A reservist battalion rabbi told the religious newspaper B’Sheva last week that Rontzki explained to his staff that their role was not “to distribute wine and challah for Shabbat to the troops,” but “to fill them with yiddishkeit and a fighting spirit.”

An overview of some of the army rabbinate’s publications made available during the fighting reflects the tone of nationalist propaganda that steps blatantly into politics, sounds racist and can be interpreted as a call to challenge international law when it comes to dealing with enemy civilians.

Haaretz has received some of the publications through Breaking the Silence, a group of former soldiers who collect evidence of unacceptable behavior in the army vis-a-vis Palestinians. Other material was provided by officers and men who received it during Operation Cast Lead. Following are quotations from this material:

“[There is] a biblical ban on surrendering a single millimeter of it [the Land of Israel] to gentiles, though all sorts of impure distortions and foolishness of autonomy, enclaves and other national weaknesses. We will not abandon it to the hands of another nation, not a finger, not a nail of it.” This is an excerpt from a publication entitled “Daily Torah studies for the soldier and the commander in Operation Cast Lead,” issued by the IDF rabbinate. The text is from “Books of Rabbi Shlomo Aviner,” who heads the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva in the Muslim quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

It is inconceivable that Cheney and Rumsfeld could have planned such a thing.  It is quite laughable to think of Cheney up nights trying to figure out how to blow up the world trade center.  Because you hate someone doesn’t make him a criminal.  If the motive was to provide a pretext for attacking Iraq, they didn’t need one.  The Clinton administration had concluded that a regime change was in order in Iraq and had Clinton remained in office much longer, he would have invaded.  Nothing can be kept secret for long in Washington but no one has come forward with the knowledge of one single detail of such a conspiracy.  Bush could not even command loyalty amoung his white house staff, but a thousand people who don’t even know him are going to keep their mouths shut?  Not even one “deep throat” amoung them?

I agree with Cyrena that the offical 9/11 story makes no sense at all. But what actually happened has to be reconstructed and the only thing likely is that the Bushites were involved.  But I personally tend to have doubts that Bush himself knew about the intended attack in advance.  I don’t think Cheney and Rumsfield trusted him and his actions indicated disorientation and post 9/11 sharply differed ideologically from pre-9/11. 

Also the whole adventure required a largeness of vision that clashes with Bush’s life.  He was a front man where the strong man was Cheney who was a protege of Rumsfield in the Nixon administration 30 years ago.  But this is merely a personal conjecture.

My wife, who is smarter than I am, doesn’t believe that the Bushites were involved.  But her reasoning involve fallacies which is very atypical for her, her job being supervising the briefs and arguments of appelate attorneys. 

These kind of surreal events seem to produce irrationality, and non rationality, which are based on not arriving at deviant opinions, which are demeaned as crackpot in the media.  It is the fear of appearing out of the realm of respectable opinion.

And of course there is a severe penalty career-wise for holding too many or to much of an unrespectable opinion.  Nevertheless, an increasing number of academics, ingineers, arctetects, demoltion experts, pilots, etc do, and to argue that they do so on the basis of fantasy is increasingly unlikely.  They argue from the evidence and their reasonable implications, and a number were fired for doing so.

<blockquote>
‘Practically speaking, 4 jetliners and their contents of passengers, crew, and cargo simply don’t evaporate into thin air, or buildings, or deserted fields anywhere,  without leaving some evidence. ...’

The planes, crew, passengers and cargo didn’t disappear.

1 of 2
By Anarcissie, January 25 at 10:28 am #
Folktruther:
‘Anarcissies and troublesum—The major difficulty that most people have with believing the evidence, of which there is now an enormous amount, is that the notion of high governemnt American officials deliberately murdering two or three thousand Americans is incredible and unbelievable. ...’
Is it?  I don’t think so.  Bush got more than 4000 Americans killed in Iraq right out in the open.
The 9/11 conspiracy theory seems far-fetched to me for practical reasons, but I have no doubt that Bush, Cheney and other members of the ruling class would kill three thousand or three million Americans to further their interests and desires.  I think the intuition, the perception of this, is very widespread and comes out in the form of myth because (1) it is obfuscated and (2) many people kind of like a murderous government anyway.
*~*
Anarcissie…
I do like your thinking, and I had to chuckle at your #(2) truth here..many people kind of like a murderous government anyway. No, it’s not ‘funny’ but it IS true.
As for “THE” 9/11 conspiracy theory, it is the “THE” that is the operative word here, because the events of 9/11 were A ‘conspiracy’ of some sort, so it just depends on which one you ‘believe’. For many people, the OFFICIAL Conspiracy is beyond far-fetched, and largely because of PRACTICAL – specifically LOGISTICAL reasons.

I have no doubt that there –are- FOREIGN extremists (AKA “Terrorists”) that would kill 3 thousand or 3 million Americans to further their interests and desires, just as fast as the Cheney group would. (bin Laden is ‘on record’ as having entertained the notion, and we know that these extremists DO exist, and have acted before) I just think Cheney and his crew beat them to it in the events of 9/11.

TBC

2 of 2
Again, that’s based on the OFFICIAL Conspiracy story, as published by the 9/11 Commission. The ‘conspiracy’ that they want us to believe is scientifically impossible, which is why they’ve been unable to provide ANY evidence to back it up.

•  Practically speaking, 4 jetliners and their contents of passengers, crew, and cargo simply don’t evaporate into thin air, or buildings, or deserted fields anywhere,  without leaving some evidence.

•  Practically speaking, airplanes cannot, (nor have they ever) bring down tall buildings in their own footprints. (only superman can do that, because jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough or slowly enough to do that type of damage, nor can airplanes cut through steel beams).

•  Practically speaking, our EYES tell us that the buildings at the WTC were demolished by controlled and pre-set explosives. How difficult would it have been to blame the ‘terrorists’ for planting the bombs? That would have made more sense (or been more believable) in the Official Conspiracy, at least in terms of explaining the WTC.

Moving along…

•  Practically speaking, 2 pilots in each of those 4 cockpits would simply NOT handover his or her ship to box cutter-wielding terrorists anymore than you would hand over YOUR life to the mugger or murderer on the street. (at least not without screaming or putting up some sort of resistance)  Practically speaking, it’s inconceivable that 4 out of 4 allegedly high-jacked aircraft would make NO communications to the effect that they had been highjacked – something that ALL licensed pilots are trained to do in any emergency.

•  Practically speaking, 19 weapon-wielding terrorists could NEVER have boarded those 4 airplanes. (I’d go for 1 plane, though even that’s a stretch for a long time commercial aviator like me..NOT 4!!)

•  Practically speaking, NOBODY could navigate a 767 or 757 a few hundred feet above the ground at 400 MPH;  which is what the Official Conspiracy wants you to believe occurred at the Pentagon.

In fact, PRACTICALLY speaking, there is NOTHING believable in the Official Conspiracy report.

HOWEVER, practically/logistically speaking, (and considering that 50,000 plus people access the WTC on a daily basis) it would have been a simple enough matter plant the explosives - in advance of the date - in what basically amounts to PLAIN SIGHT!! That’s what demolitions experts have been doing for as long as societies have been building and later demolishing buildings. (for whatever the reasons)

How many people do you observe on an average day in downtown Manhattan, going about their business, and how many of them do you question about their activities? How likely would you or I be to ‘quiz’ some dude in a hardhat about whatever construction project they might appear to be involved in? I wouldn’t, even though in a different environment, (like the commercial aviation industry where I spent my career) I would most certainly challenge anybody wandering around a secured area without proper Identification. But that environment is already set-up for such security monitoring. That has never been the case with places like the WTC – at least not prior to 9/11/2001.

So at the end of the day, the reality says that whomever set-up the demolition of the WTC probably did it just as much ‘in the open’ as Bush/Cheney did with the 4000 Americans they got killed in Iraq, not to mention the few million Iraqis that have perished as well.

Meantime, many of my colleagues remain convinced that al-Qaeda is responsible for those atrocities, and I respect their views because al-Qaeda probably WANTED to do something exactly like this. I just don’t think they did, because it would be LOGISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, at least the way the Official Conspiracy tells us it happened.

According to the ECONOMIST magizine, the US is support a rebel regime in the Dafur region of Sudan.
***********************************

IOW, we shouldn’t help anyone oppose the Janjaweed, who are engaging in a dual policy of killing all the men and raping all the women so their children are, at least part, ethnic Arabs, all with the approval, support and direction from Khartoum.

And this is the guy that thinks that Israel is the worst regime since the Nazis, picking on the poor, poor Palestinians.  I’ll bet ANY of the victims of the Janjaweed would much prefer to be in Gaza…but I can’t be sure.  Certain death and rape versus possible death…hmmm…

See, this is typical of the myopic bias of Truthdiggers against Israel…a people suffering far more than Palestinians should be left to suffer, but not the Palestinians.

Hypocrisy reigns supreme!

Troblesum- the 9/11 truthers don’t advocate droppoing out.  the are very active in trying to get the US to inestigate 9/11.  I don’t think this is possible but I certainly don’t advocate dropping out. I am trying to conceive of a way to develop apolitical-spiritual ideologies that mobilize the population against oppressive power.

According to the ECONOMIST magizine, the US is support a rebel regime in the Dafur region of Sudan.  It is conducting war in Somalia.  Zbig in the Carter administration moblized tens of thousands of Muslims around the world to overthrow the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan, BEFORE the Soviet invasion, luring the Soviets to send an army into Afghanistan. And he now says so publically.

The Nixon bombing of Cambodia killed an estimated hundred and fifty thousand people, comparble to that of the Kymer Rouge. etec, etc.

There is obviously strong emotional resistence to conceiving that the Bushites could be involved in a false flag operation in the US, despite the lifelong association of Cheney-Rumsfield thourh many administrations.  Apparently those of us who find the evidence and analysis persuasive are engaged in myths and wild paranoid notions.  OK.

In DIRTY TRUTHS, Michael Parenti puzzles over what he calls conspiracyphobes who deny the evidence of conspiracies when they occur among the powerful.  He doesn’t understand it, since power conspiracies are so common.  Indeed, intellignece agencies are set up to perform them.

Apparrently real power conspircies are confounded with right wing conspiracies like UN Black Helicopters, or the machinations of the Illuminati.  Conspiracy has been a right wing concept uncongenial to the left, much as the Anti-Semitism of the right hindered the left opposition to Zionism.

What is needed, I suppose, is a gestalt conceptual shift to acknowledge that power conspiracies do in fact occur and they are often successful, as the 9/11-anthrax conspiracy was to kickstart the War on Terrorism.  And this occurs at the same time that the loony right advocates absurd conspiracies. 

But such paradgm shifts usually have taken historical periods to occur.  Although the Dryfus conspiracy, or the Watergate conspiracy, or the Iran-Contra conspircy, were partially exposed in a rather short time.  But, I suppose, as the poet said,

          CONSPIRACEEEEEE
iT’S NOT EVERYONE’S CUP OF TEEEEE.

Folktruther:
‘Anarcissies and troublesum—The major difficulty that most people have with believing the evidence, of which there is now an enormous amount, is that the notion of high governemnt American officials deliberately murdering two or three thousand Americans is incredible and unbelievable. ...’

Is it?  I don’t think so.  Bush got more than 4000 Americans killed in Iraq right out in the open.

The 9/11 conspiracy theory seems far-fetched to me for practical reasons, but I have no doubt that Bush, Cheney and other members of the ruling class would kill three thousand or three million Americans to further their interests and desires.  I think the intuition, the perception of this, is very widespread and comes out in the form of myth because (1) it is obfuscated and (2) many people kind of like a murderous government anyway.

Inherit The Window speaks for glasnost, and I think that would be a good thing for us to get behind regardless of ideology.  But we are also going to have to deal with the crimes which have already been committed, and that is going to start when people admit that they are crimes.

troublesum, January 25 at 9:27 am #

Folktruther,
Why couldn’t Reagan keep the Iran-Contra deal a secret seeing that he had the power of the government behind him?  Secondly, if you know about wars in which tens of thousands of people were killed which were kept secret from the American people, then they are no longer secret are they?  Which wars were those?
***********************************************

Not Fair! Not Fair! Not Fair!

You are using logic, reason and rational thought to find an obvious dichotomy!  That’s cheating!

You’re supposed to use “progressive” and neo-marxist talking points, not facts and logic!

You oughta be ashamed of yourself.

Now cut that out!

When fables become gospel, illusions become reality of the insane.

Folktruther,
Why couldn’t Reagan keep the Iran-Contra deal a secret seeing that he had the power of the government behind him?  Secondly, if you know about wars in which tens of thousands of people were killed which were kept secret from the American people, then they are no longer secret are they?  Which wars were those?

And when people drop out they usually drop into something like 9/11 conspiracy theories.

People making billions of dollars a year in a world where 2 billion people live on less than a dollar a day aren’t doubting reality.  Those who drop bombs on children aren’t doubting reality.  Politicians who work in the interests of the powerful aren’t doubting reality.  Only victims doubt reality.  And the message is always the same: you better drop out because you can’t fight what is all powerful.

Anarcissies and troublesum—The major difficulty that most people have with believing the evidence, of which there is now an enormous amount, is that the notion of high governemnt American officials deliberately murdering two or three thousand Americans is incredible and unbelievable.

But false flag operatins, and mass murder,  are routine in intelligence operations and especially so in the history of American power.  And it is documented that the Joint Chiefs of Staff all agreed on Operation Northwood, the killing of Americans, shooting down planes, sinking ships, to begin a war against Cuba. Other false flag operations are known.

Troublesum’s objection that they could not keep it secret is naive.  Operation Gladio, a mass murder of Italisans by the CIA-Italisn fascists, was kept secret for decades.  Whole wars that kill tens of thousands of people are kept secret from the American people.  The making of the atomic bomb by thousands of civilians was kept secret for years.
Secrecy is inforced especially tightly if one knows one will be killed if it is suspected that one is unreliable.

And the 9/11 false flag operation isn’t secret.  the evidence and reasoning is public now, but many people don’t want to know. 9/11 couldn’t be carried out without the complicity of the American power system.

And both Dem and Gop leaders know it.  It is a secret that poisons any attempt toward Truth and Rconciliation of the crimes of the past.  the truth about 9/1-anthrax, which kickoff the current War on Terrorism, is too explosive to allow it to be publically revealed.

troublesum, January 25 at 8:19 am #

The Bush administration couldn’t even conceal the truth about the “yellow cake” from Nigeria but we are expected to believe that a conspiracy to kill thousands of American citizens in NY and Washington was carried out in total secrecy.  It is an embarrassment to the country that so many people believe this.  They couldn’t conceal illegal wire tapping.  They couldn’t conceal what went on at Abu Ghraib 10,000 miles away.  They couldn’t conceal extraordinary rendition.  They couldn’t even conceal the fact that they planted stories favorable to themselves in the press.
***********************************************

Excellent points, both of you! The answer to preventing atrocities by Americans is simple, blindingly simple: Open government. Secret information should be totally restricted to that which should be secret—like how does the missile targeting work?

But people in power, especially over the last 8 years, have sought to classify EVERYTHING to keep anybody from knowing what they were doing.  Just like Stalin had the Moscow phone directory classified, if you keep everything secret, then revealing ANYTHING, no matter how vile and how much of a violation of international law then becomes a crime in and of itself.

Open government and accountability are how we clean it up.

“The Matrix” is interesting because it was supposedly derived from “Plato’s Cave”, but if people believe in the Matrix, it is the opposite of Plato’s Cave?

Good point Anarcissie.  Our government has been guilty of such diaboloical acts for the past half century that people are ready to believe anything.  In addition in the pop culture entertainment web there has been no end of si-fi movies, books, comic books, and computer games based on the idea that we can’t trust our own senses to inform us about reality.  Anything which is entertaining must be true.  There are millions of people who believe that what was depicted in the Matrix films is an accurate description of reality, not just entertainment.  The more powerless people feel the more willing they are to believe this stuff.  The 9/11 conspiracy theories offer an alternative reality to people who don’t want to live in a world where those things happen very regularly.

troublesum—I think the 9/11 conspiracy belief is a myth which represents a truth.  That’s why it’s so popular.  I am not sure why the bald facts need to be mythified, however.  We know, for instance, that Bush started a war on a set of false pretexts and got thousands of people killed, injured and mentally traumatized for life, not of course just Americans but including Americans.  What more do we need?

The Bush administration couldn’t even conceal the truth about the “yellow cake” from Nigeria but we are expected to believe that a conspiracy to kill thousands of American citizens in NY and Washington was carried out in total secrecy.  It is an embarrassment to the country that so many people believe this.  They couldn’t conceal illegal wire tapping.  They couldn’t conceal what went on at Abu Ghraib 10,000 miles away.  They couldn’t conceal extraordinary rendition.  They couldn’t even conceal the fact that they planted stories favorable to themselves in the press.

By THE MANGEMEISTER, January 24 at 7:59 pm #
Tony Wicher and Flow get over 911 and prepare to defend the next CIA Mossad false flag operation.Hate to break the news to you Tony but O-BOMB-YA is just another Zionist stooge.

                =x=x=x=x=x=

We do agree on the likelihood of another false flag operation, but your statement exaggerates the power of Jews and Zionists which is typical of anti-Semites like you. The people doing it are not “Zionists”, if by “Zionist” you mean people who actually believe in Zionist ideology. They are just crooks, some of whom are Jewish, some not.  Their nationality and ethnicity is incidental and they are psychopaths who believe in nothing, not even Zionism.

Folktruther:
‘Anarcissie- I’m surprised at your scepticism of 9/11-antrax as a false flag operation.  It’s true that there is a lot of material to wade through, much of it specious, but what is solid is evidence that the leading Bushites, notbly Cheney, almost certainly were involved in the orcehstration of 9/11, as well as using it to kickstart the War on Terror. ...’

I find it difficult to believe that Bush and company would run the risks of high treason, which would almost certainly include the death penalty.  Remember, these guys are cowards.  They evaded service in a war they supposedly believed in, service which would have been a considerable adornment to their political resumes.  However, I will check out the books if I can find them.  I hope they don’t include the specious physics of how fast the buildings fell down, etc.

I have never looked into the anthrax business.  I assumed it was some kind of mid-level inside job, possibly run off by a nut case or a nationalist or religious fanatic.

One thing about my opinions which may enter into this is that I already consider Bush, Cheney and their friends to be war criminals, responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent, harmless people.  So if it were proved that they were responsible for 9/11, my opinion of them would not change very much.

Sorry for the double post not my fault the problem is with Truthdig.

Tony Wicher and Flow get over 911 and prepare to defend the next CIA Mossad false flag operation.Hate to break the news to you Tony but O-BOMB-YA is just another Zionist stooge.

Tony Wicher and Flow get over 911 and prepare to defend the next CIA Mossad false flag operation.

Anarcissie- I’m surprised at your scepticism of 9/11-antrax as a false flag operation.  It’s true that there is a lot of material to wade through, much of it specious, but what is solid is evidence that the leading Bushites, notbly Cheney, almost certainly were involved in the orcehstration of 9/11, as well as using it to kickstart the War on Terror.

If these two books don’t convince you, nothing will.  The first is a series of pieces from academics from around the world who disagree among themsleves on varous aspects, but all agree that the Bushites must have been involved.  It’s called 9/11 AND THE AMERICAN EMPIRE, edited by two academics David Griffen and Peter Dale Scott, the latter a fanatical researcher who documents everything.  It takes only a couble of hours to read and will slightly change your worldview.  Or not.

The other is a much more difficult book by a British think tank director Nafeez Ahmed.  It includes a detailed and astonishing survey of US atrocities and false flag operations around the world, all documented by unimpeachable sources.  It is called THE WAR ON TRUTH and is a rewitten and elaborated account of a previous book THE WAR ON FREEDOM.  A truly remarkable work, praised by Gore Vidal, Pilger and others.

As Ray McGovern, the ex-CIA analyst who drew up the president’s summary every day put it about the first book:

“It has long been clear that the Bush-Cheny administration cynically exploited the attacks of 0/11 to promote its imperial design. But the present volume confronts us with compelling evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion: that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by this adiminstration precisely so they could be thus exploited.”

Scheer: “The only justification for entering even more aggressively into the civil war in that country is the simplistic identification of the Taliban with the remnants of Osama bin Laden’s gang. The drawing of that link was never accurate: The Taliban is an outgrowth of an indigenous movement, originally stocked with CIA arms and cash, and even when bin Laden had the support of the Afghan group he was getting most of his money from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, which along with Pakistan made up the nations that granted the Taliban diplomatic recognition. Why make the Taliban our permanent enemy while coddling the state players who sponsored it?”
——————————————————————————

Scheer hasn’t quite figured it out yet, but he’ll get there. It’s true that the Taliban originally had some indigenous roots, but it would not have come to power in Afghanistan but for the support of the Pakistani ISI, which is nothing but a branch of the CIA, and by now I would think it has been completely compromised and has joined with the CIA in the drug business, supplying most of the world’s heroin.

By flow, January 24 at 10:34 am #

I would like to address the primary misnomer in this discussion (and the broader dialogue) concerning 911; “conspiracy theory”.

The issue that most scholars, academics and professional architects and engineers are seeking to resolve is the central contradiction between the official narrative and the self-evident facts as documented in the ubiquitous video recordings and supported by the laws of physics. Let us set aside completely and entirely any discussion concerning the logistics, motives and intentions of those behind the attack, including any discussion of culpability concerning any of the several operatives, agents, officials, agencies, groups, or organizations that invariably enter the dialogue when the finger-pointing begins.

            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

flow,

Thanks so much for your support. It’s been lonely out here. That is exactly the right way to start, with the science and the math. Let the scientific investigation be done in full public view, which is the only way science can be done. If the conclusion of intentional demolition is reached beyond a reasonable doubt, which I for one believe it will be, then we can start asking “who done it”, and why. The answers to these questions will lift a great shadow from the minds and hearts of Americans and the people of the world.

troublesum—thanks for a relavent link!

Tony—maybe you are correct. I cannot find it now, and you were not specific as to who you were referring to. It was a post you put on a cartoon (elephants and donkeys) , and, I wanted to post a reply, but, for the most part, cannot do so on cartoons—my pc is too slow.

Y0u said that “so called liberals” were “really conservatives” or worse than conservatives. I would submit that Blue Dogs and neo-libs ARE conservatives.

Nothing important.

By Anarcissie, January 24 at 6:55 am #
Tony Wicher:

If you had confidence in your beliefs about 9/11, you would concentrate on getting the investigations and trials started, not put off your potential allies by insisting on a conclusion in advance of hard evidence.
          =x=x=x=x=x=x=x

Anarcissie,

I don’t wish to put anybody off if I can help it. What I have been doing and saying all along is precisely what you advocate, trying to get the investigations and trials started. All I am doing is raising doubt and calling for a real public scientific investigation officially sanctioned by the U.S. government. I want the many doubts already raised by qualified engineers, physicists, chemists and architects to be investigated in public under the scrutiny of the whole scientific community. I will gladly accept the conclusions of such an investigation. The 9-11 Commission and the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report were both controlled by the Cheney administration, which completely politicized everything, including science.

I would like to address the primary misnomer in this discussion (and the broader dialogue) concerning 911; “conspiracy theory”.

The issue that most scholars, academics and professional architects and engineers are seeking to resolve is the central contradiction between the official narrative and the self-evident facts as documented in the ubiquitous video recordings and supported by the laws of physics. Let us set aside completely and entirely any discussion concerning the logistics, motives and intentions of those behind the attack, including any discussion of culpability concerning any of the several operatives, agents, officials, agencies, groups, or organizations that invariably enter the dialogue when the finger-pointing begins. 

Instead let us consider the math. We start from the premise that planes struck and entered the towers and that large explosions followed creating fires that compromised the structural integrity of the towers leading to their collapse. Granted.

The fire, in both cases, is in the upper part of the tower. The majority of floors in each tower (lets use two-thirds for our model) are below the fire and structurally unaffected by either heat or flame. For, as we know, both heat and flame will rise in the updraft created inside the building as the fire consumes 02.

But here is where “the issue” presents itself.  When the top 1/3 collapses in uniform free fall (please accept this rather dubious assumption, and set aside as immaterial the fact that it does not correspond with readily observable outcomes of bombed building from war zones throughout history and around the world.  And ignore the time-honored truism upon which the demolition industry is established that uniform-symmetrical collapse is to be regarded as a work of art requiring the highest degree of proficiency and expertise to produce. For the purposes of our model we are willing to accept the Twin Tower collapses as the exception to the rule—an anomaly).

So, the collapse begins. The mass of collapsing concrete and steel from the upper floors is acted upon by gravity to produce a certain inertia (do the math).  As this pile of rubble accelerates downward, it encounters resistance from each successive floor of the remaining (and structurally intact) lower 2/3 of the building, this resistance must, according to the laws of physics, slow the downward movement of the mass of rubble.  But it doesn’t, and therein lies the problem. Why not? Why did the Twin Towers collapse “as if” they were in free fall? The outcome observable in the documentary evidence of the events of 911.

It is the laws of physics that indict the official narrative concerning 911. This has nothing to do with “conspiracy theories.”  This entire issue can be easily put to rest by producing a logical, coherent explanation of the collapse. One that is consistent with the laws of physics. Until, such a proof is produced, questions will linger in the minds of those of us that place our faith in the laws of physics and are inclined towards skepticism when politicians offer us explanations that contravene them.  Please, if you have respect for the laws of physics, eliminate “conspiracy theory” from the dialogue.

Accountability would require an in-depth look into the abuses alleged or otherwise done by the past administration.  Since some of us do not like despots being in charge, it would be nice to clean the air and maybe bring out the hanging rope or even the orange jump suits, either would be pleasant to behold.  Otherwise business as usual will prevail, which is most likely what will happen in the end anyway.

Belief blind as it is, gives credence to old wives tales.  For some reason, I receive some email right of center crap on how Obama is going to destroy our nation and democracy.  Since our nations has become part of the new world order and we have never been a democracy, destruction of our nation as we knew or believed it to be, is already gone, with opportunists and manipulators calling the shots. 

Amusing the masses, many or most have been apart in their own demise.

Independent thought must not be, for it goes where the tour guides of politics and religion do not want.  Ignorance is ripe for plucking by manipulations.  Though sometimes, even ignorance is pushed beyond manipulations wildest attempts.

Inherit The Wind:
‘You set up a straw man assertion that you know is unprovable and end with a threat. ...’

I didn’t ask for proof, I asked for evidence.  Evidence is what would connect your theories, like the one about everyone on this web site being a conspiracist, with the real world.  Evidently you don’t have any.  This renders your ideas, already pretty tediously middle-of-the-road, effectively vacuous.  The proposition that Truthdig was a nest of feverish conspiracy theory at least had an element of humor to recommend it, but I see I’m to be disappointed in my attempt to get you to expand on your fantasy.  We could have brought the Knights Templar and the Saturnian ant men in with a little effort. 

If my suggestion that you judge yourself by the same principles you judge others is a threat, what can I do about that?

Time to get to work?  It may be too late:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28823013/

Tony Wicher:
‘I should add that I am not at all straying from the purpose of this article, which was to discuss what Obama needs to “get to work” doing. The most fundamental thing he has to do is to restore democracy and constitutional law, and openness and transparency in government. Doing this inevitably involves investigating the crimes of the Cheney regime….’

For that, you don’t need a dubious conspiracy theory about 9/11.  It is already well-known that Bush, Cheney and company violated the Constitution, numerous laws, and the principles of the charter of the Nuremberg Trials.  These are admitted facts, and hardly anyone disputes them.  The question of exactly who was responsible for what would be answered by the process of investigation, indictment and trial.  If you had confidence in your beliefs about 9/11, you would concentrate on getting the investigations and trials started, not put off your potential allies by insisting on a conclusion in advance of hard evidence.

Anarcissie, January 23 at 9:15 pm #

No evidence, just unsupported belief.  You’d better get after yourself.
**************************************

You set up a straw man assertion that you know is unprovable and end with a threat.  That’s why I differ between evidence and the cooked stuff that’s presented here so often.  For example, have you ever checked Robert’s sources?  90% are from biased, discountable web sites that can’t be taken seriously, like “thetruthabout911” and others.

Read FolkTruther’s posts: he is a religious socialist who filters all evidence through his belief structure in neo-marxism, discarding evidence that disagrees with his dogma, and coloring other evidence to fit it. His assumptions are unchallengable, even though wrong—like Obama is nothing but a clone of Bush.

It’s ironic that on this site I’m called a right-wing Republican neo-con, and on others I’m called a Democratic-Socialist flaming liberal who wants to do away with private property and have us all as wards of The State.  Yet my positions and views are the same in both places.

I just seem to piss people off by challenging their assumptions about things they know that just ain’t so.

Its just hard to believe there peoples don’t know what they do , I`m sure this peoples know how to spend the government money , normal peoples have to pay taxes , other peoples have to spend the money from there its easy like that .

By KDelphi, January 22 at 8:39 am #
Tony—If you dont stop criticising “liberals’ all over this site, who are you going to turn to for passage of the things that you think Obama wants so much? (I assumed that “bipartisanship” would mean acceptance of more than just the duopoly—apparently not. Doesnt sound very “open” to me)
=======================================
KDelphi,

If I’m the Tony you are talking about, I have never criticized “liberals”. I think you must mean somebody else.

Another thought:

If I am right, as investigations proceed, the criminals will probably engineer either another terrorist incident or an assassination. Then we shall see what happens and who takes what side.

Anarcissie,

I should add that I am not at all straying from the purpose of this article, which was to discuss what Obama needs to “get to work” doing. The most fundamental thing he has to do is to restore democracy and constitutional law, and openness and transparency in government. Doing this inevitably involves investigating the crimes of the Cheney regime (which I think it should be called). As honest investigations proceed, which they could never do as long as the Cheney administration was still in power, everything is going to unravel, and we are all going to find out that Cheney was part of a gang that perpetrated 9/11. If such investigations do not occur, the Obama regime will be compromised. After three days, Obama has made a wonderful start towards full and honest public investigation. So I am watching to see whether that start is carried through. My contribution will be to push for such investigations and see that they are carried through.

Inherit The Wind:
’... I like evidence just fine. ....’

You don’t seem to.  You say everyone on this site believes in conspiracy theories.  I don’t see that; it seems to me some do and some don’t.  In any case you didn’t present any evidence.  You say people believe in socialism as a religion.  Again, I suppose some do and some don’t.  What we need from you is a complete list of socialists with an evaluation of each one’s belief system.  Otherwise I’m going to have to suspect that the beliefs of socialists are variegated.  Nor is everyone on the site a socialist.

No evidence, just unsupported belief.  You’d better get after yourself.

Why is it that Americans are always ready to believe conspiracy theories?  It is a peculiarly American phenomenon and I am more interested in this than it knowing the details of what happened on 9/11.  Does anyone have any ideas about this?

By Anarcissie, January 23 at 6:37 pm

You say you looked into it and found no believable evidence of sabotage? Well, I looked into it and found an incredible amount of evidence of sabotage. 

That’s OK, you and my old pen pal Chomsky can keep a closed mind. It won’t be long now.

Anarcissie, January 23 at 6:45 pm #

You certainly don’t seem to like evidence much.
***********************************************

It was SUPPOSED to be a humorous connundrum….believing in not having faith.  Either you missed it or I didn’t make it blatant enough.  I try to challenge “belief” whenever I find myself doing it.

I like evidence just fine.  But the interpretations of evidence here, and the deliberate omission of contradictory evidence is not “proof”, nor has it been.

Maybe I should go along with the crowd here…like Harley riders—“Let’s all be non-conformists together…HEY! You’re wearing the wrong color bandanna!”

Just remember—they’re the same ones who believe that Mossad and CIA blew up the WTC, not poor, innocent Al Qaeda, who wouldn’t hurt a fly…..

Inherit The Wind: ’....  I don’t believe in having a faith, whether in a deity or in “socialism”.’

You mean you believe in not-having-a-faith, very strongly it seems.  But besides being self-contradictory, do you have any rational basis for your belief? 

You certainly don’t seem to like evidence much.

Tony Wicher:
‘Actually, Anarcissie, it is you who accept what the government tells you so completely that you will not question it. A fine attitude for a so-called “anarchist”.’

On the contrary, I have looked into alternate views of the event.  As I may have said, I personally witnessed the attacks and they caused me considerable difficulty and even one might say anguish.  I worked (and still work) in a building just a few hundred yards away from the site of the World Trade Center.  I was very interested in knowing how a bunch of lightly-armed terrorists could get control of four large airplanes and then fly them into large, important buildings without being interfered with by the Air Force.  I wondered why and how buildings like the World Trade Center could catch fire and fall down.  While there are many unanswered questions, such as why buildings like that were built where they were—there was certainly a non-trival chance that an airplane could fly into them by accident—I found no believable evidence that they were sabotaged.  Later, when one of my friends became a believer in 9/11 conspiracy, I went through the whole thing again.  All I can say is that it doesn’t work for me.  It has nothing to do with believing in the government.  Could the government have done it?  Sure, morally speaking.  So far, however, no one has come up with direct evidence that they did.

In any event, I’m not going to argue the case here; it’s a waste of time.  Notice that it has already derailed a proper critique of the article this discussion is attached to.  Maybe that’s its function, as Chomsky suggests.

By Inherit The Wind, January 23 at 9:50 am #
Anarcissie, January 23 at 8:07 am #
A large majority of TD posters, who are NOT right-wing, (Like TW) are as convinced of the CIA/Mossad being behind 9/11 as they are that the sun rises in the East.  In fact, it’s hard to find a Truthdigger who is NOT convinced 9/11 was a false-front job!

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But unlike most other Truthdiggers, I am also a strong Obama supporter. I am trying to break out of the narrow boundaries of the “9/11 Truther conspiracy nut” frame to the wider world of ordinary Americans with level heads on their shoulders who support Obama. Like you, my friend. I believe that is what is going to happen as the Obama administration gets under way and investigations proceed.

I still think you are worried about this because you think many people will blame Mossad, Israel or Jews. It’s not going to come out in that way. This is an international criminal gang. The nationality of its members is incidental.

KDelphi, January 23 at 10:53 am #

ITW—So, what have you decided? Are people that disagree with you right wing, left wing, conservative, “liberals”, not right wing, or what?
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Nope.  I can’t really tell one group of loony fanatics who take things on faith from another.

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Is it impossible for Obama supporters to understand why, after eight years of Bush, “bipartisanship? sounds like BS? I may be be able to find consensus with many true conservative (who is it you are going to “bi-part” with? The far right? Left? “Bi-partisans”, like Lieberman?), some of whom are much better than Blue Dogs or neo-libs. But, I was not thinking of George Will or Charles Kratutthamemmer!
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Hopefully those who still possess a rational sense and aren’t dedicated to their “religion” (whatever is is) will find common cause.  Common Cause is the start of Cooperation, which is the ONLY way to get anything done.

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(Olympia Snowe? Chuck Hagel? Arlen Specter? Maybe? I dont know—I cant think of more just now, but there have been many I have foudn some partial agreement with on different issues)
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If Ted Kennedy can be good friends with Orren Hatch, there’s always hope.  Even Lindsey Graham has a brain and a willingness to think.  Imhoff? Cornyn? Chambliss? Useless!

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Were Dems really thinking of Salazar,Vilsack, LaHOod, and Summers when they said “change”? Dennis ross? Geithner? Gates? That is hard for me to belive…if they were—then what was the “difference”?
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Yeah, just like a fanatical Muslim can’t see the difference between a Christian and a atheist—“They all look the same!”  So I don’t expect you to.

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The real neo-cons must be lovin’ you guys! You give them a large part of what they want, a pat on the back, and ignore their intention to block you at every step.
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The neo-cons are the ones TRULY left out.  They are squealing like stuck pigs.  Here Rush squeal! Hear Cheney squeal about Libby not getting a pardon! Hear Bush’s surrogates squeal about Obama attacking his policies.

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Maybe its good politics. But it is not ‘different”.

http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/23/against-bipar tisanship
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Socialism is a fanatical religion, just like Christian Fundamentalism, Islamic Jihadists, or Ultra-Orthodox Jews.  You have faith that blinds you to facts. Your faith means you cannot differ between the various kinds of people who don’t share your faith.  So I’m not surprised you can’t tell a Liberal from a neo-con or a Robertson fundamentalist.  Like a racist you say “They all look the same.”

Go say a nice “prayer” to your “god” now.  I don’t believe in having a faith, whether in a deity or in “socialism”.

By Anarcissie, January 23 at 8:07 am #
Inherit The Wind:

I have found that it is totally useless to argue with conspiracists, just as it is useless to argue with religious believers about their faith.  The belief evidently serves an important function in their psyches and cannot even be questioned.
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Actually, Anarcissie, it is you who accept what the government tells you so completely that you will not question it. A fine attitude for a so-called “anarchist”.

If you would like to open your mind on this subject for one second, which I doubt, go to Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, ae911truth.com. Watch the two-hour video. It is an elementary science lecture. These people are non-political scientists, architects and engineers. If you can understand an elementary physics lecture, you can understand what they are saying.

ITW—So, what have you decided? Are people that disagree with you right wing, left wing, conservative, “liberals”, not right wing, or what?

Is it impossible for Obama supporters to understand why, after eight years of Bush, “bipartisanship? sounds like BS? I may be be able to find consensus with many true conservative (who is it you are going to “bi-part” with? The far right? Left? “Bi-partisans”, like Lieberman?), some of whom are much better than Blue Dogs or neo-libs. But, I was not thinking of George Will or Charles Kratutthamemmer!

(Olympia Snowe? Chuck Hagel? Arlen Specter? Maybe? I dont know—I cant think of more just now, but there have been many I have foudn some partial agreement with on different issues)

Were Dems really thinking of Salazar,Vilsack, LaHOod, and Summers when they said “change”? Dennis ross? Geithner? Gates? That is hard for me to belive…if they were—then what was the “difference”?

The real neo-cons must be lovin’ you guys! You give them a large part of what they want, a pat on the back, and ignore their intention to block you at every step.

Maybe its good politics. But it is not ‘different”.

http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/23/against-bipartisanship

Anarcissie, January 23 at 8:07 am #

I have found that it is totally useless to argue with conspiracists, just as it is useless to argue with religious believers about their faith.  The belief evidently serves an important function in their psyches and cannot even be questioned.
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We agree on conspiracy buffs, just not who they are.  A large majority of TD posters, who are NOT right-wing, (Like TW) are as convinced of the CIA/Mossad being behind 9/11 as they are that the sun rises in the East.  In fact, it’s hard to find a Truthdigger who is NOT convinced 9/11 was a false-front job!

We can lump some folks in with the anal probe saucer crowd, long tales like fishermen stories make for great stories around the campfire. 

Believing in something is far different than knowing about something.  Absolutism’s flying around as self righteous thoughts, becomes reality just like politicians lies.

Inherit The Wind:
’.... But as time goes on, the far left will continue to enhance this fantasy that Mossad/CIA were behind it….’

I haven’t noticed that leftists, as such, are strongly attracted to conspiracy theories, especially this one in particular.  Noam Chomsky, for instance, whom I imagine you would place somewhere to the left of the planet Neptune, is very impatient with the 9/11 conspiracies, saying that they are a distraction from genuine, important issues—and for once I agree.  I notice as well there are a lot of right-wing conspiracists—remember the black helicopters?  But perhaps those people seem leftist to you, too; a vast left-wing conspiracy out there in the dark.

I have found that it is totally useless to argue with conspiracists, just as it is useless to argue with religious believers about their faith.  The belief evidently serves an important function in their psyches and cannot even be questioned.

RE Crimes of the State Blog, January 22 at 1:56 pm

Yes indeed, bloody treason has flourished over us for the last eight years. With the treasonous Bush administration out of office, people are already starting to come forward. Now is the time for the cover to come all the way off.

Hi, TW,

I’m not getting into this—the fireball was burning good and hot for more than a few seconds.  Just look at the video.  Burning the temper out of steel takes far, FAR less heat energy than it does to melt it.

I know you live in this fantasy world that somebody, ANYBODY but Al Qaeda decided to attack this vital part of our economy
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ITW,

Let me only say that “Al Qaeda” which means “the Base” originally refers to CIA’s database of mujahedeen to which they were supplying funds and weapons during the Afghanistan war in the 80’s. Al Qaeda DID destroy the towers. The trouble is, al Qaeda always has been a CIA operation. You will see. Very soon now this will all come out.

Hi, TW,

I’m not getting into this—the fireball was burning good and hot for more than a few seconds.  Just look at the video.  Burning the temper out of steel takes far, FAR less heat energy than it does to melt it. 

I know you live in this fantasy world that somebody, ANYBODY but Al Qaeda decided to attack this vital part of our economy just so they could go to war with Iraq—yet in all their demonic planning they never built in a link to their target, Iraq—didn’t you think of THAT??—yet 1200 people managed to keep it all secret.

The links for motive don’t make sense, the ability to keep it secret is beyond possibility, and the conspiracy buffs’ numbers don’t make sense.

But as time goes on, the far left will continue to enhance this fantasy that Mossad/CIA were behind it and that, in front of the 50,000 people who were in and out of those buildings daily, nobody noticed the wiring and demolition charges being placed…as if they all believed it when told “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”

Enjoy your fantasy.

The buildings were demolished with military thermate charges. This is demonstrated with scientific certainty by analysis of dust samples from the collapse collected by a private citizen. Chemical analysis shows the dust contained chemical residues that could only come from thermate explosions.

ITW, you are the starry-eyed idealist, not me,  because your brain refuses to accept the enormity of this. It’s OK, it takes some people longer than others. It took me years. The Hitler/Goebbels big lie technique relies on this natural human tendency, and here it has been taken to its ultimate Orwellian limit. But now that the regime that perpetrated this unbelievable atrocity is out of power, I do not think they will be able to keep the truth from coming out.  Please watch the whole two-hour presentation at
ae911truth.org.

By Inherit The Wind, January 22 at 5:51 pm #
1200 people willing to kill thousands of their fellow citizens and willing to keep it a secret.  Scott McClellan couldn’t even keep a comparatively minor matter like the Valerie Plame affair secret without wanting to cash in on it, but we are expected to believe that 1200 people kept the 9/11 conspriacy a secret.
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Details, details, Troublesum!  Never let facts get in the way of “The Truth”!

These conspiracy buffs advocate the Chico Marx rule:

“Who you gonna believe? Me or your own eyes?”

My favorite is that jet fuel, in an enclosed space, can’t burn hot enough to soften steel!

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ITW,

All the jet fuel was burned in the fireball in the first few seconds. All that was left was a low-temperature smokey fire not as hot as your stove in scattered areas on a few floors. You can clearly see people alive in the hole left by the airplane. No way did this melt all 47 central steel columns and 240 exterior columns columns all the way from the top to the bottom at the same time, so that the buildings would collapse with perfect symmetry. WTC1, 2 and 7 were all intentionally demolished. 

Tell me, how do you account for Larry Silverstein, the owner of all three buildings, shown on TV saying that he ordered WTC7 “pulled”, which it obviously was? A day or two later the story changed and we are told by the 9-11 Commission that the cause of the WTC7 collapse “remains unknown”. What kind of “investigation” is that?

flow,

I forgot to add a comment about your “Trojan Horse” theory. It sounds right to me. I know it’s possible, since it’s true in my case. I have been “boring from within” since the 60’s, and I have stayed pure in spirit. 

I suppose we will get a lot of guff from the other posters here about comparing Obama to Jesus, but what are you gonna do? I’m not even a Christian anyway. I’m a pagan who believes Christianity is a form of paganism.

flow,

I forgot to add a comment about your “Trojan Horse” theory. It sounds right to me. I know it’s possible, since it’s true in my case. I have been “boring from within” since the 60’s, and I have stayed pure in spirit. 

I suppose we will get a lot of guff from the other posters here about comparing Obama to Jesus, but what are you gonna do?

Re flow, January 22 at 11:24 am

“There is of course more that can be said, such as the degree of synchronicity in his rise to high office, but I need not complicate the very simple point I am trying to make. Obama’s psychological composition coupled with his profound charisma and intellectual prowess, form the ingredients and basis required to produce a World-Changing-Warrior. Indeed, Obama may have been permitted into high office by the Archons of Imperialism, but what remains now to be seen is what will emerge the deep recesses of his psyche and being. I would suggest not ruling out the Trojan Horse Phenomenon, the centers of power may have a saboteur in their midst, who despite appearances, does not share their values and despises their intentions and motivations.”

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Dude, you are a trip! “Archons of imperialism” yet. I love it! “Archons” are an archetype of ancient evil. When that evil rises to a maximum where the destruction of mankind is imminent, the “World Changing Warrior” is called forth by this crisis of consciousness to defeat this force and save mankind.  I like this mythology. Of course, it’s not that different from the Christian one. In that mythology, 
these psychopathic gangsters running things all wear the Mark of the Beast, and the World-Changing Warrior is named Jesus. Which only goes to show that this is a common mythology shared in some form by many cultures.

I totally share your perspective.

Also, nobody ever seemed to notice that ‘way up there, where the planes hit, the winds are ALWAYS howlingly fierce, feeding massive amounts of oxygen into the flames like a blacksmith’s bellows into his forge….making it burn faster and hotter.

1200 people willing to kill thousands of their fellow citizens and willing to keep it a secret.  Scott McClellan couldn’t even keep a comparatively minor matter like the Valerie Plame affair secret without wanting to cash in on it, but we are expected to believe that 1200 people kept the 9/11 conspriacy a secret.
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Details, details, Troublesum!  Never let facts get in the way of “The Truth”!

These conspiracy buffs advocate the Chico Marx rule:

“Who you gonna believe? Me or your own eyes?”

My favorite is that jet fuel, in an enclosed space, can’t burn hot enough to soften steel! Hell, I burned the temper out of a knife blade with just a propane torch when I was a teenager—and jet fuel burns a HELL of a lot hotter than propane because it has far more energy, pound for pound—otherwise all the planes would fly on propane.  (none of the conspiracy buffs ever thought of THAT did they?)

Remember how Pierre Sallinger destroyed his reputation insisting that Flight 800 was shot down by a missle?  Turned out a wire in the gas tank wore through and caused a catastrophic spark—and all the other 747s had to have that little item fixed.

Remember the “Magic Dancing Bullet” that Oliver Stone hyped in JFK?  Well, adjusting the timing of the shots correctly makes that magic bullet go away—but that didn’t stop that buffs!

As John Adams said long ago: “Facts are stubborn things.”

9/11 is irrelevant not because we don’t know who was responsible but because we do.  There is an ongoing effort to apprehend bin Laden and bring him to justice.  It is irrelevant in the sense that it should no longer be used for political purposes by people who are challanged by reality or by people who want to exploit it for the sake of war without end and ever increasing military budgets.

9/11 conspiracy theories are peculiar to the US.  Britain, Spain, and India don’t have conspiracy theorists.  Tony Blair wasn’t seen lurking around the London subway system with a suitcase full of dynomite.  Then there’s the small matter of what happened to all the people on the three planes if drones were in fact substitued for the planes.  Seems these people have not been seen nor heard from by their relatives and friends since 9/11.  Maybe they’re on that island somewhere in the south pacific with Elvis and Marilyn and JFK.  Reality is a challange for people who believe in conspiracies to explain all the tragedies in life.  It is a fantasy that the military always operates with precision, so when it doesn’t there must be a conspiracy.  The air force didn’t intercept the planes heading for the towers, therefore they must have been ordered by Bush or Cheney to stand down.
Buildings like the towers don’t usually collapse due to fire, so there must have been explosives planted in them.  There were thousands of people in the towers on a daily basis but no one ever saw anyone planting explosives in them.  It is estimated that somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 people would have had to have known about the conspiracy in order to plan and carry it out.  1200 people willing to kill thousands of their fellow citizens and willing to keep it a secret.  Scott McClellan couldn’t even keep a comparatively minor matter like the Valerie Plame affair secret without wanting to cash in on it, but we are expected to believe that 1200 people kept the 9/11 conspriacy a secret.

Eight years late, but we must pursue Bush for the high treason of 9/11.  I have collected contacts at the Justice Department and a sample “COMPLAINT” to show how Bush’s cover up of “foreign government involvement” (US SENTATE) in the 9/11 attacks is treason.  Treason is “aid and comfort” to the “enemy.”  If “foreign governments” attacked the US on 9/11, then covering up that fact is indeed “aid and comfort.”

Tony

“...the anti-Obama posters [on this site see] the United States as totally corrupt, and so any administration that gets in is automatically considered just as corrupt as another…”

What we observe in the world around us is essentially a projection of our own interior reality. Understanding this governing principle of the human psyche, the contents and nature of individual psyches that surround us becomes readily discernible. Yes, there is presently a disturbing and inordinate amount of pathological behavior in the US government, but those who regard the circumstance as irreparable and beyond rectification are in effect broadcasting their own unwillingness to change, or even acknowledge their role and responsibility in it.

Regarding the prospects for change in an Obama administration, I would like to call out a couple of points that I find intriguing concerning Obama’s psychological composition.

First, the Orphan Factor. Obama was “abandoned” by his father, and to a certain degree, by his mother as well, as indicated in his remarks eulogizing his grandmother.  “She raised me” he said in reference to his grandmother. The orphan finds himself in a perilously precarious position and learns very early that the world is a difficult and dangerous place. He also learns that his chances for survival are rooted in, or rather predicated upon his ability to provide for himself. Nothing outside of himself is certain or absolute or to be trusted entirely or taken literally. Therefore, from the archetypal perspective, it is the orphan that is willing, indeed prepared, some might say compelled to challenge conventional norms and mores, and is thus invariably and inevitably thrust into the hero’s journey.

Second is the Aloha Factor. Hawaii is a microcosm of the world. The original melting pot. Hawaiians are not, ethnically speaking a homogenous population, but rather a composite of influences gradually assimilated across several centuries, indeed millennia, with points of origin encompassing the globe.  This constant, gradual process of assimilation produced a culture of tolerance and acceptance, that is the hallmark of a genuinely spiritually advanced and highly developed people.  This spiritual development, as manifest in the Aloha Spirit, was the governing spirit of island life prior to the Anglo imperial conquest. Paradise despoiled by imperialism. This fact surely cannot be lost on Obama, and surely, neither can its metaphorical import.

There is of course more that can be said, such as the degree of synchronicity in his rise to high office, but I need not complicate the very simple point I am trying to make. Obama’s psychological composition coupled with his profound charisma and intellectual prowess, form the ingredients and basis required to produce a World-Changing-Warrior. Indeed, Obama may have been permitted into high office by the Archons of Imperialism, but what remains now to be seen is what will emerge the deep recesses of his psyche and being. I would suggest not ruling out the Trojan Horse Phenomenon, the centers of power may have a saboteur in their midst, who despite appearances, does not share their values and despises their intentions and motivations.

Tony Wicher: ’... and now, with an honest administration in power, [the bad people] can be exposed once and for all.’

The fundamental policy, and thus the fundamental problem, of the present administration, as was true of all those preceding it back to World War 2, is the drive for world domination through imperialism, war and terror.

Obama has not given any sign of changing that policy.  Indeed, if he had, he would not have been allowed anywhere near the Senate, much less the presidency.

It is not going to matter how honest anyone intends to be, because the needs of power are at war with honesty.  Knowledge is power, and one way of achieving and maintaining power is to deny knowledge to those you seek to defeat and rule—in the case of the American ruling class, everyone on earth.  The drive for power will inevitably rot the intention of honesty away.  Honesty is the privilege of the poor and the powerless.

Obama would have to exceed Martin Luther King and Gandhi in righteousness to try to turn the United States away from the drive for world domination, and if he did, he would almost certainly be removed from office one way or another, and a more obedient servant installed.  The one possibility of any substantial change away from the dreary rot of imperialism lies in the fact that the U.S. may be in sufficiently dire economic straits to force a serious retrenchment of the imperial project.  But this is a rather long shot, and it will be thrust upon Obama if it occurs, not chosen by him.

kashilinus:
‘Seven hundred billion dollars is a prodigious amount of money, and to have it disappear with no accounting is nothing short of criminal. Lots of attempts to characterize how much money ths is, but I imagine a world trade center every three miles extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific. That’s what you could build for $700B.’

Here are some people attempting to keep track of the money: http://bailoutsleuth.com/

It is not all that difficult to visualize seven hundred billion dollars on the Federal level: it is $2333 per person, in my case slightly short of two month’s rent, or more than enough to buy food for a year, not counting restaurant adventures.  I am not sure of the source of the money, however; it may simply have been generated out of thin air, and may be disappearing back into thin air, without ever representing labor or goods.  A great deal of our money is completely fictional now.

Re flow, January 21 at 10:08 pm #

The difference between you and me, and the anti-Obama posters on this site, is that they all see the United States as totally corrupt, and so any administration that gets in is automatically considered just as corrupt as another. You and I, on the other hand,  see a conspiracy of a gang of sociopaths involving the oil companies, defense contractors, CIA, the mob and ultra-Zionists - “the military-industrial complex” who have taken over the government, and have been running it from the shadows since the Kennedy assassination, but we believe that there are enough honest Americans left inside and outside our government to expose and stop them. We believe they are not all-powerful, they did not succeed in a complete takeover during the Bush administration (which was the objective of 9-11) and now, with an honest administration in power, they can be exposed once and for all.

By troublesum, January 21 at 5:21 pm #
9/11 is irrelevent now because no one cares anymore.  People are worried about the future not the past.  Secondly, 9/11 truthers overlook the fact that the logistics of carrying out such a scheme are impossible.  How do you plan and carry out something like this in downtown Manhatten without anyone knowing anything about it?
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What a hoot. YOU know about ‘logistics’ troublesum? THAT’S hilarious.
Meantime good question for somebody wiith a less compromised mentality. How DO you plan and carry out something like this in downtown Manhatten without anyone knowing anything about it?

THE ‘TERRORISTS’ OBVIOUSLY DID!!!
And by the way, 9/11 is NOT ‘irrelevant’ and your suggestion that ‘no one cares anymore’ is yet another written verification of ARROGANT IGNORANCE …the very worst kind.
Nope troublesum, what most people KNOW about 9/11 (and you all can drop the 9/11 truther’s lable – it’s really old and tired now) is that the LOGISTICS of carrying out such an operation as it was presented in the official lie, are IMPOSSIBLE. Yes. It’s that simple. What the 9/11 Commission wants us to believe DEFIES science and ALL logistics.
Meantime, they DIDN’T ‘carry out something like this in downtown Manhatten without ANYONE KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. OBVIOUSLY, enough people DID know a whole lot about it. They BLEW UP three huge skyscrapers for Christ’s sake. SEVERAL SOMEBODIES fucking ‘knew about it’.
So yeah, the people who lost their loved ones very much CARE about what happened to them, and the rest of the population of the US SHOULD care, since it was the Kick-off act that would lead to the worst Era of US History – EVER,  based on the “War on Terror” theme/propanganda.
And no…as a society, we will not heal until we know who perpetrated those heinous crimes against us, HOW they did it, and WHY!
Now that won’t be easy, but there are smart people who’ve been at work on this for a while now.
Meantime, we hear from Scheer only the briefest mention of the monster behind it all..
•  “..the sight of the disgraced Dick Cheney being wheeled off the stage of history…..was nothing short of thrilling.”
Indeed – thrilling…except of course that I would have preferred to see him in handcuffs with a ball and chain attached to his evil ass. Be that as it may, did anyone get the story of why Cheney was in the wheelchair? According to the only once mentioned ‘excuse’, he strained his back when he was MOVING BOXES into his new house.

WTF??? Cheney does moving work now? This guy who has to have a team of half-dozen physicians surrounding him at all times is fine with moving his own shit out of the White House? Uh huh. OF COURSE he would be. He can’t let anybody else touch that stuff before he can feed it to the shredder.

Tony—If you dont stop criticising “liberals’ all over this site, who are you going to turn to for passage of the things that you think Obama wants so much? (I assumed that “bipartisanship” would mean acceptance of more than just the duopoly—apparently not. Doesnt sound very “open” to me)

Conservatives? Good luck.

Check out c-span.org. If you want to work with these people, have at it.