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Time to Stop the Mideast Comparisons

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Posted on Jan 10, 2009
Gaza graffiti
AP photo / Elizabeth Dalziel

Same story, different perspectives: Palestinian men sit along a wall under graffiti depicting a Palestinian fighter stabbing an Israeli soldier at Beach refugee camp in the Gaza Strip in this 2001 photo.

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally printed in The Independent.

It all depends where you live. That was the geography of Israel’s propaganda, designed to demonstrate that we softies—we little baby-coddling liberals living in our secure Western homes—don’t realise the horror of 12 (now 20) Israeli deaths in 10 years and thousands of rockets and the unimaginable trauma and stress of living near Gaza. Forget the 600 Palestinian dead; travelling on both sides of the Atlantic these past couple of weeks has been an instructive—not to say weirdly repetitive—experience.

Here’s how it goes. I was in Toronto when I opened the right-wing National Post and found Lorne Gunter trying to explain to readers what it felt like to come under Palestinian rocket attack. “Suppose you lived in the Toronto suburb of Don Mills,” writes Gunter, “and people from the suburb of Scarborough—about 10 kilometres away—were firing as many as 100 rockets a day into your yard, your kid’s school, the strip mall down the street and your dentist’s office…”

Getting the message? It just so happens, of course, that the people of Scarborough are underprivileged, often new immigrants—many from Afghanistan—while the people of Don Mills are largely middle class with a fair number of Muslims. Nothing like digging a knife into Canada’s multicultural society to show how Israel is all too justified in smashing back at the Palestinians.

Now a trip down Montreal way and a glance at the French-language newspaper La Presse two days later. And sure enough, there’s an article signed by 16 pro-Israeli writers, economists and academics who are trying to explain what it feels like to come under Palestinian rocket attack. “Imagine for a moment that the children of Longueuil live day and night in terror, that businesses, shops, hospitals, schools are the targets of terrorists located in Brossard.” Longueuil, it should be added, is a community of blacks and Muslim immigrants, Afghans, Iranians. But who are the “terrorists” in Brossard?

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Two days later and I am in Dublin. I open The Irish Times to find a letter from the local Israeli ambassador, trying to explain to the people of the Irish Republic what it feels like to come under Palestinian rocket attack. Know what’s coming? Of course you do. “What would you do,” Zion Evrony asks readers, “if Dublin were subjected to a bombardment of 8,000 rockets and mortars…” And so it goes on and on and on. Needless to say, I’m waiting for the same writers to ask how we’d feel if we lived in Don Mills or Brossard or Dublin and came under sustained attack from supersonic aircraft and Merkava tanks and thousands of troops whose shells and bombs tore 40 women and children to pieces outside a school, shredded whole families in their beds and who, after nearly a week, had killed almost 200 civilians out of 600 fatalities.

In Ireland, my favourite journalistic justification for this bloodbath came from my old mate Kevin Myers. “The death toll from Gaza is, of course, shocking, dreadful, unspeakable,” he mourned. “Though it does not compare with the death toll amongst Israelis if Hamas had its way.” Get it? The massacre in Gaza is justified because Hamas would have done the same if they could, even though they didn’t do it because they couldn’t. It took Fintan O’Toole, The Irish Times’s resident philosopher-in-chief, to speak the unspeakable. “When does the mandate of victimhood expire?” he asked. “At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?”

I had an interesting time giving the Tip O’Neill peace lecture in Derry when one of the audience asked, as did a member of the Trinity College Dublin Historical Society a day later, whether the Northern Ireland Good Friday peace agreement—or, indeed, any aspect of the recent Irish conflict—contained lessons for the Middle East. I suggested that local peace agreements didn’t travel well and that the idea advanced by John Hume (my host in Derry)—that it was all about compromise—didn’t work since the Israeli seizure of Arab land in the West Bank had more in common with the 17th-century Irish Catholic dispossession than sectarianism in Belfast.

What I do suspect, however, is that the split and near civil war between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority has a lot in common with the division between the Irish Free State and anti-treaty forces that led to the 1922-3 Irish civil war; that Hamas’s refusal to recognise Israel—and the enemies of Michael Collins who refused to recognise the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the border with Northern Ireland—are tragedies that have a lot in common, Israel now playing the role of Britain, urging the pro-treaty men (Mahmoud Abbas) to destroy the anti-treaty men (Hamas).

I ended the week in one of those BBC World Service discussions in which a guy from The Jerusalem Post, a man from al-Jazeera, a British academic and Fisk danced the usual steps around the catastrophe in Gaza. The moment I mentioned that 600 Palestinian dead for 20 Israeli dead around Gaza in 10 years was grotesque, pro-Israeli listeners condemned me for suggesting (which I did not) that only 20 Israelis had been killed in all of Israel in 10 years. Of course, hundreds of Israelis outside Gaza have died in that time—but so have thousands of Palestinians.

My favourite moment came when I pointed out that journalists should be on the side of those who suffer. If we were reporting the 18th-century slave trade, I said, we wouldn’t give equal time to the slave ship captain in our dispatches. If we were reporting the liberation of a Nazi concentration camp, we wouldn’t give equal time to the SS spokesman. At which point a journalist from the Jewish Telegraph in Prague responded that “the IDF are not Hitler”. Of course not. But who said they were?


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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, January 14, 2009 at 4:53 am Link to this comment

By mvhome, January 13 at 8:14 pm #

Given Israels history of deceit and spying against the U.S. which occurs up to and including today.

Given the the fact that they are utilizing U.S. made weapons in an offensive method against unarmed civilians which against standing agreements with the United States and the United Nations as well as geneva conventions.

Given the fact that I as a U.S. taxpayer am subsidizing this rogue country against my will by my compromised representative.

Given the fact that a 2% minority has accumulated by racial, religious and ethnic discrimmination, a majority share in the major media and entertainment industries.  Objective reporting with equal time given to both sides is a thing of the past.  We need serious anti trust actions to bust up our “free press”.

Yes, Israel is a punk assed country and I think we need to untangle ourselves from it.

Many people in this nation don’t like bullies and murderers nor do they want their tax dollars to support them.

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By mvhome, January 13, 2009 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry wrote the following…

“How far do you live from the promised land?  Go there, serve on the front lines and tell me again why you support this punk assed country…..Israel.

Apparently the locals offer truer criticism than you.”

“punk assed country”... ? Such an interesting choice of words… totally absent of civility. I was wondering are you trying to engage in a conversation or are you interested in name calling?

BTW… recent surveys conducted in Israel make it clear that the vast majority of Israeli’s support the action in Gaza. I too know many Israelis who are opposed to it too… but it is a democracy after all.

I would hope that you would change your tone so that a conversation could take place… it might even augment your position to be more diplomatic in your choice of words.

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By matt, January 13, 2009 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By octopus, January 11 at 5:49 am #


The firing of flacid missiles is akin to a black person sitiing at a whites only diner in 1960’s Birmingham.
_________
Except that missiles kill people, genius.
Seriously, is it a rule that if you “champion the little guy” you have to throw logic and reason out the window?  Both sides are in error. Both sides will keep doing “bad things” to each other.  I love how people act like the Palestinians don’t deserve any blame for what is happening and Israel is a big mean bully. If someone launches a missile into my city, I really don’t want a “proportionate” response.

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By radson, January 13, 2009 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

Sir Robert Fisk do not lose hope ,as frustrating as that may sound.The land of the pyramids is in a state of monetary stagnation at the moment because they brought it upon themselves.Money does not define the wealth of a nation ,it is the citizens regardless of wealth that carry the load.The Russian people that ensured the survival of the motherland during the reign of the Georgian devil can attest to that.Today we are witness to the blatant stupitity by the majority of the Western Media and of their quest towards the continuation of conflict.The First world war is not over yet , and what has been occuring in the Levant is merely a small piece of the whole story.Personaly i don’t believe that the Zionists are going to launch an all out ground offensive into the Gaza strip ,that would encompass an enourmous force of at least 40000 men ,and the consequences of such brutality is only going to strenghten the resolve of all persons that disapprove of such large-scale violence.Since the majority of the residents of this planet are so easily blinded by mainstream news agencies,the ones who can still see through the fog of war must continue to voice their opinions.

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By PatrickHenry, January 13, 2009 at 5:19 pm Link to this comment

By mvhome, January 13 at 5:58 am #

“The website that was used is hardly an independent, objective source of information”.

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/10/facts-you-may-not-know-about-israel.html

I ask others to judge for yourselves.  The location is Israel and it has a list of 1600 Israeli bloggers.

mvhome:

How far do you live from the promised land?  Go there, serve on the front lines and tell me again why you support this punk assed country…..Israel.

Apparently the locals offer truer criticism than you.

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By Nightgaunt, January 13, 2009 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I must disagree with PurpleGirl, power is what all other things flow from. Money, resources etc naturally come from a pirate way of life. Theocratic plunder is sanctioned by the Zionists and ultra nationalists in Israel who when they take from Palestine it instantly reverts to their Torah mandate of God’s land deeded to them on the blood of others who once lived there. [The Jebusites, Maobites and many others exterminated or run off by JHVH for the Promised People of the Promised Land.] Born in blood and reborn in the blood of others. Israel hasn’t finalized its boarders even now because they aren’t finished yet in establishing what their theologians say are the true sacred boundaries of their Holy Land. You can’t argue with God or ‘his’ ways for they are law above all other laws of humanity. We have the same problem here with the Dominionists who believe they are the new Promised Ones in the USA which to them is the new Jerusalem of an Aryan-Albion Christian Nation. A shining nascent empire sitting on a growing hill of skulls. Empire building is rarely peaceful.

In such cases the nationalism and theocracy are merged into a nightmare monster where anything, any atrocity can and will be sanctioned for use with the doers absolved of any sin. [The modern Zionists learned the wrong lessons from the Germans. Like a national version of an abused person turning into an abuser themselves without therapy. A mass psychological reaction.]

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By KDelphi, January 13, 2009 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

mvhome—

“So I ask a little differently, do you have “absolute truth” to deduce that someone is articulating biased or misleading information? Or might it possible that the information Howard or as PatrickHenry would say “pro-semites (non-Arab) are expressing being factual?

How can you ask if I have “absolute truth”, when you admit that you do not? Does Howard have it? Do I? Do you? Such a term, without religious myths, is silly. It doesnt exist.

You have no more info that Howard is “being factual” than you have that I am not.I do knoe that Howard was posting things verbatim from a pro-Israeli website. Maybe if he would post his own opinions, instead of barfing out , what I call PROPAGANDA, it would be more worth arguing. He has been on other threads, posting the exact same thing. I did not write down the website, that he was typing from. Who knows, it may be “gone” from the posting, where the TD found it…

Did you read or go to the website, I suggested? That was an example of propaganda. If you want to see what Howard has “pete and re-peted”, go to other threads, I’m certainly not looking them all up—Remember, they make me “zzz…” That is an OPINION…


“perjorative tone”—well, that is opinion, so, if you think so, have at it!

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By mvhome, January 13, 2009 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

FWIW…

I urge all participants to gather information from as wide a range of sources as possible… probably one of the better sources is LinkTV… here is a link… in this Jan 12, 2009 video (LinkTV is carried on a number of broadcast outlets and via it’s website) we have reports from Israel and from Arab broadcast sources (AlJazeera being but one)...

http://www.linktv.org/mosaic/streamsArchive/

It’s easy to buy into an opinion piece that fits your own fixed point of view. The challenge, I believe, is a willingness to listen with an open mind to a point of view that stretches and illuminates.

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By mvhome, January 13, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry referenced a website expressing some points about Israel…

I urge you to fact check these points… the first 3 are, in my opinion, bogus… but please don’t take my word for it. I personally know Israeli-Arabs who have purchased and own land in Israel. Water resources are sent to Israel… Jew, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc. have access to the water… the way the point is written on that website suggests there some diverter valve within Israel that sends water to Jews and restricts water going to those who are not Jewish.

The only “old stuff, going on for years” are people making stuff up to fit a particular point of view. The website that was used is hardly an independent, objective source of information.

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By mvhome, January 13, 2009 at 6:25 am Link to this comment

KDelphi wrote…

“mvhome—“There are two very striking points about the above sentence. First… the phrase…“propaganda machine”... by your using this phrase it appears that you feel you have absolute truth.”

Really?? How so? I was merely saying that he posts the same thing over and over and over.”

Propaganda = 1 chiefly derogatory information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature

Repeating accurate information over and over might also be propaganda? Certainly not. When you use the term “propaganda” you are indicating that you find the information to be “biased or misleading”.

So I ask a little differently, do you have “absolute truth” to deduce that someone is articulating biased or misleading information? Or might it possible that the information Howard or as PatrickHenry would say “pro-semites (non-Arab) are expressing being factual?

I never said I had absolute truth… I never said that you were were expressing biased or misleading information. If you read my post again I said “elusive absolute truth”... my issue with your post is largely it’s pejorative tone.

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By PatrickHenry, January 13, 2009 at 4:57 am Link to this comment

By mvhome, January 12 at 5:01 pm #

Some more Israeli-jew democracy in action.

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/10/facts-you-may-not-know-about-israel.html

This is old stuff and has been going on for years, convienient how Howard and the other pro-semites (non arab) overlook these facts.

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By Alina, January 13, 2009 at 12:28 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It took Fintan O’Toole, The Irish Times’s resident philosopher-in-chief, to speak the unspeakable. “When does the mandate of victimhood expire?” he asked. “At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?”
Finally, THE question has been asked!

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By KDelphi, January 12, 2009 at 10:35 pm Link to this comment

mvhome—“There are two very striking points about the above sentence. First… the phrase…“propaganda machine”... by your using this phrase it appears that you feel you have absolute truth.”

Really?? How so? I was merely saying that he posts the same thing over and over and over.

“My sources of information are from those experiencing the onslaught on Sderot… a child psychologist who works with the children whose families live in Sderot and a young mother who lives in Sderot. I also have a number of friends recently returned from Sderot.”

Wow, ceratinly no bias there! People who live and work there. It is no wonder there is no peace agreement when it is obvious that you can only see one side.

YOu have to GO there , to express a viewpoint??

As for “standing up for Israel”—we already do—to the tune of billions. I would like the rich Imperialists in Israel to buy their own bombs, somehwer else. The UK still does it…


Lebanon TRIED to build up it’s society, and, just when they were heading into their first summer, with plenty of new resorts hthe people of the EU and uS were going to visit—Israel “decided” to attack. We also know that Israel wanted to attack Iran, but BUSH sadi “no”?? What a hawk you have to be to have BUSH say “no”!.

I never said I had “absolute truth”. No one does.Neither do you.

I think that it is usually best not to refer to ‘absolute truth” as it does not exist.

 

 

 

I think that Howard may have received one of these letters…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media

“Hasbar SPAM Alert” by Richard Silverstein, Fri. Jan 9..

“The foreign ministry shouldnt get a pass on this one. It may view such hasbara as maximising its efforts to “explain” Israel’s position in the world media. I view it as a cynical attempt to flood the web and news media with favorable flackery in a vain attempt to tilt public opinion toward Israel. Not only does it do Israel a disservice, it stains every legitimate effort that the ministry might make to explain Israel to the world, since no one will believe a word it says knowing it engages in such outright propaganda”

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JimBob's avatar

By JimBob, January 12, 2009 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

Dear mvhome.  You may have “asked for an example.”  What I did was explain why no specific example of the Holocaust or Shoah is needed.  Your subsequent post was extremely weak and did not refute a thing I said.  The Israelis would be foolish, at this point, to say, “We expect to get away with terrorizing and murdering Palestinians because people will sympathize with our Holocaust experience.”  They don’t need to, it’s far better left unspoken but understood.  It’s working just fine that way.

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By mvhome, January 12, 2009 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

JimBob wrote…

“Oh, please.  The Holocaust has been so assiduously kept alive in film and literature there needs be no mention of it in “reports.”  It’s like the air we breathe.”

I asked for a specific example related to the current crisis in which the Shoah was mentioned as a rationale for the Israeli military action. Your response speaks volumes with it’s lack of addressing my specific question. What you expressed was your general perception of the Shoah being in “the air we breathe”.

I am sorry you find references to the Shoah to be bothersome.

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By fred lapides, January 12, 2009 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

1. to the comment about Israel and occupied land: that land was never in a state called Palestine. It was land in the hands of Jordan and Egypt. You don’t give back land taken in war till you get a peace treaty. Ever.

If Hamas is so “clean” then why do they still maintain in their charter that their aim is the total destruction of the state of Israel?

Proportionality? Should Israel have fired their best artillary one for each time Hamas fired one, then some 2000 would have gone into Gaza City, randomly, as Hamas does…how many would then be killed in that tit for tat?

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JimBob's avatar

By JimBob, January 12, 2009 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

mvhome wrote:

Please cite a single example of reports coming out of Israel that invoke the Shoah… the Holocaust…

Oh, please.  The Holocaust has been so assiduously kept alive in film and literature there needs be no mention of it in “reports.”  It’s like the air we breathe.  Name me another topic that has received the kind of life support the Holocaust has had, most especially from the Jewish-owned film business.  They have the right to tell whatever stories they can sell tickets to, but if you think the victimhood angle isn’t a bit part of what excuses—in some minds—the atrocious behavior of Israel ever since it was plopped down in the middle of inhabited Palestine, you are dead wrong.

As for the missiles, please.  20 people in 10 years.  For illegal-alien drunk drivers to kill 20 people in Los Angeles doesn’t even take a month.  Are we bombing the crap out of Mexico as a result?

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By mvhome, January 12, 2009 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry wrote…

“Howard, a note on Israels vaunted Democracy.” And then referenced an Al Jezeera report in which the following was written…

Together they [Arabs] hold seven of the 120 parliamentary seats.

Please explain how the deliberative process expressed in that article isn’t democratic.

The article mentions a number of kineset members who what to exclude the Arab parties from the next election in February… but there are other members of the kineset who disagree with that point of view.

Democracy is a process… even if you disagree with the results.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, January 12, 2009 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Howard, a note on Israels vaunted Democracy.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009112165350696500.html

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By mvhome, January 12, 2009 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

JimBob wrote:

Answer: never, if the Jews can help it.  Latest installment of the keep-it-alive-at-all-costs media campaign, “Defiance,” is playing now at a theater near you.”

Please cite a single example of reports coming out of Israel that invoke the Shoah… the Holocaust… It’s my read that the only folks talking about the Shoah are posts such as this one.

What has been stated clearly by Israel is the 8 yrs of constant missiles landing in residential neighborhoods.

I have been asking those who have been most vocally opposed to Israels response to this is, “Where were your voices while the citizens of Israel were recipients of Hamas launched missiles into the neighborhoods?”

Where have your voices been while Hamas was spending donated funds on missiles rather than building infrastructure and industries?

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JimBob's avatar

By JimBob, January 12, 2009 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

Fintan O’Toole’s question:  “When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe’s Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?”

Answer: never, if the Jews can help it.  Latest installment of the keep-it-alive-at-all-costs media campaign, “Defiance,” is playing now at a theater near you.

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By mvhome, January 12, 2009 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi wrote…

“The broken record Howard propaganda machine…zzzzz:

There are two very striking points about the above sentence. First… the phrase…“propaganda machine”... by your using this phrase it appears that you feel you have absolute truth. I suppose I warranted that expression since I differed from your point of view.

My second point… If one has absolute truth one can assume that the one with truthiness (with apologies to Steven Colbert) listens to alternative points of view with a degree of respect and an analytic mindset. However, when someone expresses slumber when contrarian information is expressed I think it difficult to imagine that you in fact have the elusive absolute truth.

My sources of information are from those experiencing the onslaught on Sderot… a child psychologist who works with the children whose families live in Sderot and a young mother who lives in Sderot. I also have a number of friends recently returned from Sderot. So perhaps I am part of some “propaganda machine”.. but at least I have direct knowledge of what is happening in Sderot from those in Sderot.

My question KDelphi, is where where you during the 8 yrs that Hamas was sending missiles into Sderot with total disregard to the population of Sderot and with total disregard to using the funds for these missiles rather than building a viable and healthy society in Palestine?... something, btw, I strongly support (on a first person basis, btw)

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By KDelphi, January 12, 2009 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

mvhome—Who ,here , is “giving license” to Hamas?

BTW—I think at we should send congress a mass mailng that we want to give the US back to Native Americans. This is their sacred land. Lets get the f**k off of it!

The broken record Howard propaganda machine…zzzzz

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By mvhome, January 12, 2009 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

It seems odd to me that there seems to be so many posters and so many columnists giving license to Hamas’ 8yrs/10K+ missile Israeli residential neighborhood launching program.

During this time period I never saw these folks speaking out against this dangerous and terror filled situation.

I never heard, from the people who speak so violently against Israel, protest against the nearly daily bombardments into Sderot.

Israel has worked via peaceful diplomatic means to pro-actively stop these missiles from landing in residential neighborhoods. Hamas refused and continued. After diplomacy, sanctions and blockades followed… and still the missiles found residential areas to torment.

The prime directive of any nation-state is the health and safety of its citizens.

So, in the anti-Israel world it is OK for Hamas to launch missiles rather than launching infrastructure, social services and industrial development projects to build a healthy Palestine.

Talking about industrial development, I’ve seen some comments from people indicating they are boycotting Israeli products. The fascinating thing is what Palestinian products can be boycotted if one wanted to do that sort of thing?

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By Howard, January 12, 2009 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

Hamas is at fault. Last 6 months bombarded Israel and mass media of world would not notice or care.
If no instigation, there would be no IDF in gaza, today.

Hamas goaded and pleaded and begged to be invaded. Counted on hiding amongst civilians so they could garner world sympathy, when inadvertant civilian casualties resulted.

They cannnot responsiby govern. A danger to their own people. Refused to extend the questinable cease-fire 3 weeks ago and stepped up number of rockets and missles into Israel instead.

Finally Israel responded, as evidence dictates that longer range of those later missles are being smuggled into gaza from Iran and Syria.  So this ‘conflict’ has more to meet the idea than a local imbroglio.

Would only get worse if Israel did not defend itself. Just as we would do. For sure.

Did gaza plant, cultivate, construct homes, factories, shops after Israel left completely in 2005 and wished the gazans good luck?  No.they did not.  But spent their UN dole monies on rockets and missles and misled their people as to what peace could really be.

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By grumpynykr, January 12, 2009 at 11:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

acknowledge the HUMANITY of the Palestinian people and their right to exist ANYWHERE in Palestine.  Second stop building illegal colonies on Palestinian land (using US taxpayer dollars).  Stop the apartheid wall that steals even more land/water.  Allow Palestinians to trave freely by land/water. Stop “Jewish” squatters from harrassing Palestinian farmers from cultivating their olive groves/farms on their property.  It sickens me to watch a real-time genocide while the world is watching.

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By Rayven, January 12, 2009 at 8:16 am Link to this comment

Thanks Romira,

I know blogging is used for many reason, but I so hate incompetent, irrational and just plain “dumb” responses to “real” issues, such as the response’s from “Howard”! To in any way try to justify the vile actions of Israel in there invasion (once again), is neither laughable or humorous. I love debating, but wish more bloggers would stick to…rather the pro or con of a presented topic….respond with concrete “sense”. Howard’s responses are just ignorant….ignorance no one needs.

One question to you Howard….who is paying you to post your incorrect, non validated nonsense?

Again have a great day Romira and thanks!

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By Me, January 12, 2009 at 12:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Israel’s propaganda”


I stopped reading your blathering right there-

I’m a liberal and sick of the liberal ignorance on the topic-  You are all hysterical and as INSANE as the Bush bots were/are.

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By Howard, January 11, 2009 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment

“Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships. It is only the citizens of Israel—Arabs and Jews alike—who enjoy the right to express their views, to criticize their government, to form political parties, to publish private newspapers, to hold free elections. When Arab authorities deny the most basic freedoms to their own people, it is obscene for them to start claiming that Israel is violating the Palestinians’ rights. All Arab citizens who are genuinely concerned with human rights should, as their very first action, seek to oust their own despotic rulers and adopt the type of free society that characterizes Israel.”
— Yaron Brook, Ph.D.


http://www.capmag.com/israel/

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By P. T., January 11, 2009 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

Check out this video of a British reporter questioning an Israeli official in a way no American reporter would ever dare!  Click on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIQZ1-RFq6A

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By KDelphi, January 11, 2009 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

At this point, even if there was a “ceasefire” tonight..damage is done.

I still hope fervently for one, but, no, this was not business as usual. This was something different. Everyone knows it.

Shame.

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By purplewolf, January 11, 2009 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

Octopus, About that voodoo doll. It is not inflicting pain or torment when you stick the pins/knives, etc., into the doll. It is when you take them out that cause all the pain, suffering and torment or whatever you do to it. Bind it in red thread or yarn to stop it from being able to harm others also. Have fun.(Did my high school term report on the subject of voodoo, received an A+ on it).

Brewerstroupe: Thanks for the barcode info. I do not buy much, but will start checking and not buy anything with these numbers on it. I do not believe in supporting one group of peoples than have caused so much suffering unto others. One would think that with the past history of the Holocaust, they would treat others as equals, but I guess power does corrupt others and not for the better of humankind.

In America, we have only a very short look back into it’s past history to see how the indigenous peoples were treated after the Puritans, then the Europeans invaded the “New World”. And history repeats itself with another group of people, wronged by those who have more money, more and better weapons and a much larger number of people to use for cannon fodder.

And if and when Israel totally cleanses Gaza, it will not be happy for long and then they will be onto the next group of victims from which they feel have dissed.

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By matt, January 11, 2009 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Who fired the first shot after the cease-fire?

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By Howard, January 11, 2009 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

Only ethnic cleansing is in the Hamas charter which calls for the elimination of Israel and its population. This is repeated in elementary schools daily and in high schools daily and the mosques and newspapers, such as they are in gaza routinely.

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 11, 2009 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

This is a message from my friends at Jewish Voice for Peace. I am only sharing it with rational human beings on TD. If you are not of them, just ignore it!

To watch Jon Stewart segment go to the link below:
http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/
==================
Dear Fadel,
Just a few days after the bombing of Gaza started, my rabbi, Rabbi Brant Rosen here in Evanston, Illinois had the courage to write something on his blog* that may forever change his life, and the lives of those around him. As I read it, I could literally feel the earth shift beneath my feet. He said, Send a note to Jon Stewart. Tell everyone you know to watch the segment.
We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world, but are all too willing to give Israel a pass. It’s a fascinating double-standard, and one I understand all too well. I understand it because I’ve been just as responsible as anyone else for perpetrating it.
So no more rationalizations. What Israel has been doing to the people of Gaza is an outrage. It has has brought neither safety nor security to the people of Israel and it has wrought nothing but misery and tragedy upon the people of Gaza.
The earth is shifting on this issue when the people to whom we look for guidance about right and wrong, people like Rabbi Brant, finally speak the truth- that killing will not bring peace. Not for the Israelis, not for the Palestinians, not for anyone. Many people from my own congregation, including my own daughter, wrote him to say “Thank you, thank you for finally saying these words out loud.”
I felt something similar when I saw Jon Stewart on The Daily Show on Monday night. While almost all of the mainstream news in the United States has reported the story without any context whatsoever, repeating the lie that this is a simple case of Israel defending its people against irrational attacks, it was Jon Stewart, the main source of news for an entire generation of Americans, who got it right**.
He talked about the “soul-crushing” siege of Gaza, the occupation that has forced Palestinians to go through checkpoints to do anything at all, the perverse logic of trying to “get a war in” just before Obama’s inauguration. When I watched this segment, I knew the earth was shifting. And I knew I had to thank Jon, and to make sure everyone I know watches his segment.
We all know that if every Jew in America said no to Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians, it would still happen, because it has is seen as serving the interests of our country’s foreign interests. And it is supported by Christian fundamentalists who believe it is one step closer to the end times. That’s why we all need to work together- every single one of us.
So thank Jon by going here. And then tell everyone you know to watch this video. Tell your friends that if it seems like what is happening now is wrong, that’s because it is.
By the way, the last haunting words of Rabbi Brant’s post were these: “There, I’ve said it. Now what do I do?”
At Jewish Voice for Peace, it’s our mandate to answer that question. We’re planning a broad-based response that we know will make a difference, and the heart of that response will be every single one of you. We’ll ask you to have those conversations with everyone you know, to educate yourselves, to let the world know peace with justice is possible.

Lynn Pollack
Jewish Voice for Peace

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By Rob, January 11, 2009 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ll be blunt. It is with cold conviction that I must say I don’t care about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict anymore. Why? Because there is no end in sight. It is an endless cycle of revenge, attack and counterattack. Both groups continuously state their historical claims and grievances, and I don’t find either side worth supporting. Not to mention that this conflict is firmly rooted in superstition, as the so-called “Holy Land” is the epicenter for the destructive dogmas that plague the Western World and the Middle East to this day.

Why must this little strip of desert land deserve so much universal attention? Because of religion.

Then again, the Troubles in Northern Ireland followed a similar pattern, and today we see a more peaceful situation there. But with the history and complexity of this idiotic holy war, I have my doubts

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By Folktruther, January 11, 2009 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Hey, that’s great, KDemphi.  The rabbis and other clerics are often ahead of their congregations politically and ethically, and your post indicates they are starting to turn against Aipac, etc.

Way to go, Brewerstroupe.  I scanned your blog and will go through it more carefully when I have time.  I again apologize for my aspersions against you, cuased by my complete ignorance of the history of pre-WW2 Israeli Zionism.  I didn’t even know there was any; I just assumed without thinking that Jews escaping from Nazism went wherever they could and Israel was one place.

It never occurred to me that Ben Gurion belived in ethnic cleansing.  He was a labor leader, for God’s sake!  Until I read your stuff I didn’t really understand that this was a deliberate policy.  Probably many others are as deluded as I was, so you are doing the world a service.

  BOYCOTT ISTRAEL   No ETHNIC CLEANSING

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By brewerstroupe, January 11, 2009 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

Boycott the Israel Bar Code 729

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/08/118987.php

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By paul bass, January 11, 2009 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

1)israel “left” gaza only to turn around and impose a complete blockade on the gaza strip.
THIS IS AN ACT OF WAR, plain and simple.

2)NO STATE HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST!!!!!
did the soviet union have a right to exist?
did the American colonial government have a right to exist?
did the third reich have a right to exist?
where is cuba’s right to exist
a state is an institution for the governance of given location it has no “Rights”

now people on the other hand have a right to exist every single israeli and palestinian has a right to exist. now which group is infringing on the others right to exist? the leaders of israel who can come and go as they please who see murder as a campaign boost who get the latest and the greatest weapons in the history of human kind, no stings, no price tag?

or the leadership of hamas who have been firing homemade rockets over the illegal blockade and once in a while cause property damage and even rarer actually hurt or kill some one.

3)CAN WE PlEASE GET THE F*** OVER HITLER PLEASE!!!!!
hitler in the west might as well be the devil himself, who personally oversaw and directed every single evil act of ww2 on either side.
this is not the case, now i have no love for hitler but the proplem was a population who saw military forces as positive and constructive, and a military bureaucracy that new how to do one thing well and applied it to all problems.
... sound familiar?

any way im a jew who lived in israel for 2 years and my father was born in Vienna before the war so im neither an antisemite(????anti-arabic????)nor am i in any way having sympathy for the third reich.

so lets justs keep the context in context

one of the worlds strongest armies back by thee worlds strongest army is attacking a small stip of land it has till recently occupied and since has blockaded.
this is not a proxy war with iran no matter how much israel would like it to be.
unless you want to start calling the american revolutionary war “the british war against french extremist”  (well everyone else got their strange and absurd comparisons)

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By yours truly, January 11, 2009 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now Is The Time For All True Jews To Stand Up For The Palestinian People

“Based on?”

“The true Jew always siding with the slave, never with the slaveowner.”

“What makes a Palestinian the slave?”

“To have one’s homeland occupied by another people is to be enslaved.”

“Which makes the Israeli occupiers of the Palestinian homeland?”

“Not true Jews.”

“Based on?”

“True Jews not being slaveowners.”

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By KDelphi, January 11, 2009 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment

If we didnt learn anythign else from the zionist christans of the Bush Admin., we should learn that, yes, they DO mean it! They dont “mean it” “in a historiacal sense”, or “symbolically”—they realy want to do this stuff,(kill a whole lot of people) people! And they want you to pay for it, and, die for it!

Kucinich, the other courageous representative left…


From, Rabbi Brant Rosen’s blog:

Outrage in Gaza: No More Apologies
December 28, 2008 by Rabbi Brant Rosen http://rabbibrant.com/2008/12/28/outrage-in-gaza-no-more-apologies/


“The news today out of Israel and Gaza makes me just sick to my stomach.

I know, I can already hear the responses: every nation has a responsibility to ensure the safety of its citizens. If the Qassams stopped, Israel wouldn’t be forced to take military action. Hamas also bears responsibility for this tragic situation…

I could answer each and every one of these claims in turn, but I’m ready to stop this perverse game of rhetorical ping-pong. I don’t buy the rationalizations any more. I’m so tired of the apologetics. How on earth will squeezing the life out of Gaza, not to mention bombing the living hell out of it, ensure the safety of Israeli citizens?

We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world, but are all too willing to give Israel a pass. It’s a fascinating double-standard, and one I understand all too well. I understand it because I’ve been just as responsible as anyone else for perpetrating it.

So no more rationalizations. What Israel has been doing to the people of Gaza is an outrage. It has has brought neither safety nor security to the people of Israel and it has wrought nothing but misery and tragedy upon the people of Gaza.

There, I’ve said it. Now what do I do?”

(Some answers are within the blog)

From If America Only Knew:
“The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.”

http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/

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By Rayven, January 11, 2009 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

Great article Robert, thank you for this unbiased report of “actual” genocide that the Israeli government (actual murderers)are (and have been) perpetrating again at this time. Let the facts speak the truth, if it was not for the backing of mainly the US, the Israeli government would not be able to commit such vile acts.

The word annex means to “take from”, when the UN with the backing of the US “annexed” land from the Palestinians to give to Israeli people to form a “so called state”.....that simple and truthfully is (was) wrong. You cannot and never will force the world to accept such a lie, not matter how you try to cover it up…case closed.

Now, I do not condone or believe in suicide bombings or anything of that nature, but I do know that no matter what one tries to do, you can never cover up a people’s despicable acts, acts against humanity. The Israeli government are committing crimes against humanity, the people who condone their actions in my book, may not have cast a vote for it, but still have the blood of innocents on their hands as well.

I ask myself frequently, why is it that the certain powers want to keep that section of the world destabilized….why?

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By AJ1009, January 11, 2009 at 11:57 am Link to this comment

So I guess you agree with Moshe Yaalon, Chief of Staff of the IDF when he said: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.” No right to self-determination, but to live meekly under Israeli domination or to be ethnically cleansed from Palestine altogether, which seems to be the preferred solution for some of the Israeli leadership.

Yes i agree with his statement, but that is a completely wrong interpretation of what he said.  Which proves my point a sentence or words can be twisted and turned around to support both sides.  a 2-state solution to the current boarders is what was proposed during the clinton administration.  palistine did not want that, israel is not oppressing anybody.  they are just taking care of themselves, which palastine has no idea on how to do.  If they could take care of themselves we wouldn’t be in this mess.  if they could provide for their own people but they don’t, there just hell bent on getting rid of israel and blowing themselves up in the name of allah and to get those 72 virgins that aren’t virgins anymore.  And why do they comemorate a story in the torah where an evil son stole a blessing from his brother.  The muslim religion Islam taken after Ishmal, who stole a blessing from issac in the torah, why do they celebrate an evil story of the Torah?  cause there evil, they don’t know how to support themselves, nobody else wants them cause they don’t contribute to a society, they demonize it and demoralize it.  their not a justified people.  and the fact that they VOTED in HAMAS, says they don’t know how to take care of themselves, and that most of the palastinians, call for the end of israel.  thats why the blockades won’t come down and israel occupies that territory, cause hamas is not a governing organization.  and the world knows that.  the UN called for a cease-fire, but did they send any delegates to talk to israel (with the exception of france and egypt, which i respect, they took action) or just the piece of paper calling for a cease-fire?  has any nation that is against this offensive sent delegates to israel or anything to israel to stop them?  why haven’t they?  think about that why hasn’t the world responded with ACTION, instead of words…..... cause they don’t want israel to stop.  Think about that for a minute before you respond to me.  Why hasn’t there been action, and only talk?

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By PatrickHenry, January 11, 2009 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

Given the picture which accompanies this post, I wonder who the Israeli is? 

The larger fellow with the blade in the back is carrying an M-16

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By Birch, January 11, 2009 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

@AJ1009

So I guess you agree with Moshe Yaalon, Chief of Staff of the IDF when he said: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.” No right to self-determination, but to live meekly under Israeli domination or to be ethnically cleansed from Palestine altogether, which seems to be the preferred solution for some of the Israeli leadership.

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By Folktruther, January 11, 2009 at 10:59 am Link to this comment

The Gazan Christmas war is an increased historical turn toward a genocidal ethnic cleansing of the Palestinina population, partially by expulsion and partly by mass murder. This idea, under the codeword of Transfer, is increasingly idenified with by Likud, Kadima, and Labor leaders, and is increasingly supported by the Zionist wing of the American ruling class.

This ethnic cleansing is prevalent in Jewish religious ideology as it is in right wing religious ideology in the US, of which Maani is a soft supporter. Dr. Dan gives examples of the preaching of eminent rabbis for the muder of every Palestian man, woman and child.  They argue that this is part of the religioous instruction of the Bible, which is quite true.  In the Jewish Bible, the Old Testament, God not only encourages but requires the murder of every man, woman and child of various Enemy populations.

This is not just idle chatter.  Israeli rabbis justified the assassination of Sabin for moving toward cooperation with Arafat, and his murder was done ritualistically in Biblical tradition.  The Lidud, etc, who orginally were terrorists, and the religious leaders, really mean it.  Israel has conducted numeerous massacres throughout its history, and they are becoming more blatant in defiance of world opinion and the UN.

The US power structure, including Obama, is moving toward supporting this ethnic cleansing, under the guise of supporting a two state solution. A two state solution is increasingly impossible given Israel’s increasing identification with ethnic cleansing. 

Both Zbig and Brent Scowcroft, National security advisors under Ford, Carter and Bush 1, more or less state that the power problem is hopeless if the US does not intervene for a two state solution, and the US is not doing so.  What the US-Israeli want is a puppet regime, led by a puppet like Abbas or the bought Egyptian puppet Mubarak, to repress the Palestinian population.

But given that it is impossible to pursue an imperialist policy historically in an anti-imperalist age, it doesn’t stop imperialist powers from trying to do it.  The US also originated by ethnic cleansing, and there is a bloodthirsty streak in the US power system, communicated to the population, which would support Israeli ethnic cleansing.  US has supported it in Iraq, and Biden publically endorsed partitioning Iraq into three fragments.

The only defense to these historical trends is increasing and intensify world opinion.  If opposition to US-Israeli oppression of the population is strong enough, even religious fanatics will back off and bide their time.  So all we can do is to increase and intensify world opinion.

  BOYCOTT ISREAL NO ETHNIC CLEANSING

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By Blackspeare, January 11, 2009 at 10:56 am Link to this comment

It is estimated, based on typography and economic ability, that the Gaza territory can self-sustain no more than 500,000 people.  With close to 1.5 million inhabitants all that Israel is aspiring to do is make Gaza self-sufficient!

In just nine days we’ll hear from BHO——the world is waiting.  But more importantly, the football season will end February 1st and baseball doesn’t begin until April 1st.  Basketball is a somewhat dull game and hockey is for afficianados so what is there to do for a past-time?!  The Israeli invasion of Gaza was a good start, but soon we will need more——where is Hizbullah when you need them!!!

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By AJ1009, January 11, 2009 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

you are all ignorant sheltered americans that knows nothing.  Boycott anything Jewish, not only israel.  Ha, why don’t you just put your money under you matress, and stay at home not turn on your computer, cell phone or TV. and read a book by another shelter american that shares your ignorant views.  Because that is the only thing you’ll be able to do.  Its impossible to boycott israel or anything jewish.  Why don’t you guys go read something that supports israel?  i read this shit to gain a more rounded perspective.  oh wait, thats why your ignorant.  i don’t work for AIPAC, i support them, but i don’t work for them.  Just letting everybody know these are my own personal views, I don’t hate the palistinians, i don’t hate anybody , i don’t think the jews are better then everybody, i think they have a right to defend themselves.  and all this “propaganda” you speak of is comming from Left-wing fundamentalist americans that are ignorant and sheltered.  I’m not talking to the real journalists that post real articles on this site.  That is why i’m a member of this site.  Its the stupid people who comment on it that i’m talking to.  Ok and analogy; if somebody keeps pinching you and everytime he/she pinches you you punch them in the face as hard as you can.  You would think that person would stop pinching you, right?  well thats what the palastinians are doing, they keep pinching and we keep punching, when are they going to stop putting there own civilian population at risk and start thinking about them, instead of destroying greenhouses to grow crops for their people, and provide food for their people.  or spend money on furthering you own countries needs, instead of the one that calls for the end of israel.  Thats what they did.  When israel pulled out of gaza in 2005, they saw hamas couldn’t rule there own people.  but let them, and look where it got them today.  I’m completely against the humanitarian crisis there, but they asked for it, for asking hamas to protect them.

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By Birch, January 11, 2009 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

US Plans Massive Arms Delivery to Israel (Press TV ??January 10, 2009 “Press TV””

The Pentagon plans to make a large arms delivery to Israel, rising fears that the military campaign in Gaza will go on for a long time.

The US is trying to hire a merchant ship that can carry hundreds of tons of weapons from Greece to Israel later this month; Reuters reported citing tender documents it had obtained.??

Meanwhile, a Pentagon spokesman confirmed the planned arms shipment to Israel, but denied that the delivery was linked to the Israel’s deadly offensive in Gaza.?

?“This previously scheduled shipment is routine and not in support of the current situation in Gaza,” said Air Force Lt. Col. Patrick Ryder.??

However, a senior military analyst in London, who wished to remain unnamed, said the timing of the shipments shows that they may be ‘irregular’ and linked to the military operation in Gaza.??

The tender for the ship followed a December US arms delivery to Israel, which was also carried out by a merchant ship.?

??Last week, The Jerusalem Post, reported that the first shipment of the missiles arrived in early December, adding that the bombs had been used in the military onslaught in Gaza.??So far, Israel’s 15-day offensive in the besieged Palestinian enclave has claimed the lives of more than 800 Palestinians and wounded almost 3500.??

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By Birch, January 11, 2009 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Weapons Killing People In Gaza, Made In USA

 ?Statement on H Res 34, Recognizing Israel’s right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza, Reaffirming the United States strong support for Israel, and supporting the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. January 09, 2009 ?
 
By Ron Paul ??January 10, 2009—“Madame Speaker, I strongly oppose H. Res. 34, which was rushed to the floor with almost no prior notice and without consideration by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. The resolution clearly takes one side in a conflict that has nothing to do with the United States or US interests. I am concerned that the weapons currently being used by Israel against the Palestinians in Gaza are made in America and paid for by American taxpayers. ... What moral responsibility do we have for the violence in Israel and Gaza after having provided so much military support to one side???As an opponent of all violence, I am appalled by the practice of lobbing homemade rockets into Israel from Gaza. ... But I am also appalled by the longstanding Israeli blockade of Gaza—a cruel act of war—and the tremendous loss of life that has resulted from the latest Israeli attack that started last month.
Such collective punishment is immoral. At the very least, the US Congress should not be loudly proclaiming its support for the Israeli government’s actions in Gaza.??Madame Speaker, this resolution will do nothing to reduce the fighting and bloodshed in the Middle East. The resolution in fact will lead the US to become further involved in this conflict, promising “vigorous support and unwavering commitment to the welfare, security, and survival of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.” Is it really in the interest of the United States to guarantee the survival of any foreign country? I believe it would be better to focus on the security and survival of the United States, the Constitution of which my colleagues and I swore to defend just this week at the beginning of the 111th Congress. I urge my colleagues to reject this resolution.”

Ron Paul, one of the few courageous members of our Israeli occupied Congress.

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By octopus, January 11, 2009 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

The sign at the edge of town reads….
Welome to Heaven
Population: 0

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By nrobi, January 11, 2009 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Why oh why, do the nations rage?  Because the “people” are not righteous and act is if they are the only ones that G-d hears.
Palestinians are not the cause of the latest round of Israeli hubris, but they are the receivers of the worst kind of actions, actions that deliberately and with malice aforethought, kill innocent men, women and children. Is there a logical and reasonable explanation
for the prolonged use of weapons of mass destruction?
The bunker busting bombs, used on schools, bombs with depleted uranium, that have a half-life of I don’t know how long, and now face to face attacks on
the innocent, that must surely cause the participants
PTSD and nightmares, for their actions are not righteous and not according to the Torah.
Is this how Israel, wants is citizens to be?  Killers
of babies and innocents? Have the Israelis become so
jaded in their response to suffering that they cannot
feel the misery that they are causing in the Gaza Strip?  Or have their hearts and consciences been seared to the point that they(the soldiers) have hearts of stone? 
All this and more to be debated by the pundits, yet the killing goes on unabated, with no cease-fire in sight. Let us the people rise up and take back the reins of power and cease hostilities between the US/Israel and Palestine. We must for the sake of future generations stop the killing now, or we will be the recipients of more and more bloodshed, until the rivers flow with the blood of all the people.
How can we say for sure, that the people can do this?
Look at Northern Ireland, there the troubles went on for hundreds of years, yet Protestant and Catholic women got together and started a peace movement that still continues to this day. Comparisons are a necessary thing, because without comparisons we would have nothing to base our belief system on.
There must be an end to hostilities, if that means, touching the “third rail,” of Israeli funding of their economy, the supplying of their weapons of mass
destruction and letting the Israeli’s fight it out without the support of the American people then so be it.  There is nothing stopping us, the people from
demanding that our government cease and desist supplying killers of babies and women, which have nothing to do with the conflict at hand.

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By Robert, January 11, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

One of the Best Ones that I Have Seen…No Intimidation At All!


Israeli spokesman (Regev) gets shut up by Alex Thomson


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?fs=1&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/v/zIQZ1-RFq6A&feature=player_embedded&v=zIQZ1-RFq6A

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By Purple Girl, January 11, 2009 at 7:28 am Link to this comment

Recently heard there is about a sq ft of space for each Gaza resident…A million in about a 25 mile stretch? Tehn i look at the geographical space for Isrealis…Why have the ever needed the West Bank to build?
American are getting Oversatiated in the faned Woes of Israel. We are also sick of playing big brother everytime they pick a fight, not only using our Might and influence, but also OUR money to do so. Israel is the buddy you take out for drinks, pay his way ..Only to find he’s picked afight with the Hell’s Angels, then passed out leaving you to take the beating. Israel is not only jeporadizing the safety of their citizens and all other Jews around the World, but US. I have no interest in getting the shit kick out of US (again) to defend this instigator.
israel has plenty of weapons to defend themselves or even attack their enemies (Thanks to Our Tax dollars) , Far more than any who throw ‘sticks & stones’ at them or even insult them.They have the means to resolve this never ending BS conflict of ‘Caine & Able’ but have refused preferring th erest of the World ‘foot the Bill’.
Peace in the Middle East will come when we make Israel fight it’s own fights…Cut them off of funds, weapons and diplomatic support. Let their asses hang in the wind, perhaps then they will stop picking needless fights and work to resolve the issues in more Productive ways.
The israel gov’t is about as worried about their citizens future safety as Bush has been worried about US. It’s all about Ego and Profits, nothing more.
I’m Praying for 3 similtaneous lightening bolts to obliterate the ‘holy’ sites, perhaps then these Bloodthirsty war mongers will realize God has been trying to tell them something like ‘Thou shall not covet’, Thou shall not Kill’ and that worshipping and killing others for mere brick and Mortar is heretical.

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By octopus, January 11, 2009 at 7:12 am Link to this comment

Israel is putting a noose around it’s own neck.
Boycott anything Jewish.

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By choupachoup, January 11, 2009 at 7:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

thank you mr fisk for standing up to the propaganda that the zionists have institutionalized in the western worlds press and governments.  it seems that it is only through your refusal to submit to the insane logic of this genocide,  and the public outrage, the kind that eileen flemming participated in and followed through on, that this gruesome charade will end. 
the governments of the world have cowered from the israeli government for many years.
they have trademarked “holocaust victim”, sorry africans too numerous to mention, american indians, ditto central and south americans, oh, and austrailian aboriginies.
having been a victim is never an excuse to become a predator.

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By Howard, January 11, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment

Hamas cannot rule.  Teaches all their people that Israel MUST be destroyed. Completely. And their people. That is teaching genocide. Its in their charter and announced every week in their schools, if not daily, and in their mosques. Change has to start there. 

Iran and Syria supply them with weapons instead of aiding them economically.  Most of the gazans are egyptian, but Egypt does not help them even though they are on the border with them.

If Hamas stops their rockets and stops their genocidal teachings, there could be a new beginnnig for them. But I still think Hamas is blind to helping their people.  Like trying to get off the UN dole and donor monies from the EU and US.

Everyone is waiting for Hamas to see the light and move forward as any rational gov’t or leadership could and would do.

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By octopus, January 11, 2009 at 6:49 am Link to this comment

The firing of flacid missiles is akin to a black person sitiing at a whites only diner in 1960’s Birmingham. It is a provocative act that incites a violent response and ultimately earns the sympathy of the general public. Israel, you must really hate yourself because you have assured your own sel-destruction.

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By Richmond, January 11, 2009 at 6:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You know how to stop the Israeli Army in it’s tracks? Hamas recognizes the right of Israel to exist, arrests and imprisons anyone who launches rockets or promotes terror, and proceeds in a good faith manner to accept a two state solution.

Heck, just recognize Israel’s right to exist might be enough, instead of preaching hatred and anti-semitic fear mongering.

Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization that has as its prime motivation the destruction of the Jewish state and people. Do they have legitimate motivations for their actions resulting from decades of occupation and oppression, yes. Do those legitimate motivations excuse the horror and murder that Hamas has unleashed, not in the eyes the Islamic, Jewish or Christian faiths that have shed so much blood for so many centuries in this dry patch of land.

Let us hope that both sides can follow the essence of their faiths to find a peaceful way to exist together, because if they do not, there is not other path than the bloody one they are currently on.

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By Dr. Dan, January 11, 2009 at 6:35 am Link to this comment

It is time that Israel is recognized as an IMMANENT THREAT to Humanity. Israel is armed with every Weapon of Mass Destruction known to man including 2-400 secret Nuclear warheads built with material STOLEN from America. Israel is insane from 3,500 years of “biblically mandated” inbreeding, Israel Threatens LIFE on Earth. For thousands of years Israel has believed they are the “Chosen People of GOD”. That belief alone should be a warning flag to any NON-Jew. For thousands of years the Jews have believed that to BE a Jew, The parents must BOTH be Jewish, the mother determines that one IS a Jew, the father determines which “tribe” one belongs to. This belief has led to mental illness from inbreeding. These people now are engaging in GENOCIDE and declaring it to be “justified” under THEIR religious beliefs. Today, Gaza, tomorrow they NUKE Europe !? Israel is engaging in War Crimes and Aggressive War against non-Jews, whom they denigrate and DEHUMANIZE as GENTILES, GOYIM, SISHKAS.
  Israel allied with APARTHEID SOUTH Africa, trading weapons and torture techniques with those “supremists”, when the CIVILIZED world shunned them. Now Israel has allied with the DEATH CULTISTS of the “Rapture”. They call themselves “Christian/Zionists” which is an oxymoron, you CANNOT be Christian/ANTI-Christian at the same time. These “rapture” Prophets for PROFIT are ANTI-Christ DEATH CULTISTS. God/Jesus placed you in this LIFE to learn “soul lessons”, to increase your consciousness to the point of Redemption. These JUDAS GOATS REJECT the LIFE God gave you, and dangle a False Path in front of people, just as SATAN dangled Temptation in front of Jesus. Do not follow the ANTI-Christ lies of FALSE prophets. Their “shortcut” of cheating God’s lessons does NOT lead to Heaven, any more than cheating on school work teaches you the subject.
Rapture belief should also be considered a sign of if not an actual mental illness. The believer is not only rejecting reality, they are rejecting LIFE.
Recognize it as the DEATH CULT that it is, and keep the believer from any position of power or authority, as their “ANTI life outlook” is inimical to God Given Life..
——————————————————————————
May 30, 2007 21:24
All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.
—————————————————————————
April 10, 2008
“All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts.” This was the religious opinion issued one week ago by Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute, a long-established religious institute attended by students and soldiers in the Israeli settlements of the West Bank. In an article published by numerous religious Israeli newspapers two weeks ago and run by the liberal Haaretz on 26 March, Rosen asserted that there is evidence in the Torah to justify this stand.

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By octopus, January 11, 2009 at 6:31 am Link to this comment

The Zionists have already invaded abd taken over our country. Where have you been?

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By ExAm, January 11, 2009 at 2:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Who is worse?  Hitler - who did what he did without history of genocide or The Zionist Jew - who has recent memory of genocide and now does the same thing to other human beings.

I wonder if the Zionist Jew was trying to take over Germany like Palestine

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By GreenSnake, January 11, 2009 at 1:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So, according to you (Fisk), the Israelis are not playing fair if they kill more than 20 in Gaza.  I suspect that the point of their whole operation is to put an end to the attacks on their southern border, and you can’t do that with a slap on the wrist.  Are you going to argue that the Palestinians have a right to lob rockets into Israel? Israel could have easily killed a whole lot more if they were so inclined. 

“My favourite moment came when I pointed out that journalists should be on the side of those who suffer.”—Fisk

Hence, you would have favored Nazi Germany near the end of the war. Underdogs do need to have their story told, but they who suffer are not all angels.
Those who are well off are not all devils.  Journalists should strive for objectivity.

GreenSnake

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By P. T., January 10, 2009 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

What would the U.S. do if Zionist terrorists were stealing its land and water, blockading it, and killing its people?

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By jr., January 10, 2009 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Mr. Fisk for such a great! article.

I heard the fabulist condi rice spewing the same falsehoods you wrote you heard, “Imagine you lived on the texas border….” blah, blah, blah.  What they don’t say is that the situation could not ever be the same.  First of all, reports have it it was the israeli government that initially broke the most recent cease fire.  Secondly, even before hamas was elected into office, while fatah was still seated, it was again the israeli government militia that not only surrounded gaza, closing off it’s borders both by land and sea, denying everyone the right to enter or leave, but cut off all food and medical supplies from entering, and then, dared the gazans to do anything about it.  Now, when a world power puts a defenseless people in such a choke-hold, what else is one expecting them to do?  Now, i’m not condoning the rocket-fire, but as a last straw effort it’s not beyond reason for one to even attempt to defend oneself no matter how feeble it may seem.  And even after the many blatant atrocities commited by the superpower israel, behold the many heroes who have not come charging to the rescue of the gazan and palestinian peoples, not even for humanitarian reasons;  but to thou Mr. Fisk and to the few others who have, thank you.

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By cruxpuppy, January 10, 2009 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment

Howard

The leaders of Hamas are not blind. They prefer to suffer and die rather than live under oppressive occupation. They fire their ineffective and primitive missiles in order to make the comfortable and corrupt Israelis feel the terror and oppression they feel. They tell the Israelis with each missile that they prefer to die rather than to live under a worse-than-apartheid condition.

The IDF pulled out of Gaza, but imposed onerous sanctions, making life unbearable. They built the wall to further isolate and fragment the Palestinian community. Gaza has long been a minimum security prison, but in recent years, since the IDF pull out, the murder of Arafat, and the election of Hamas, it has become a concentration camp. The people of Gaza elected Hamas. That means that they prefer to die rather than live under oppressive occupation.

The Israelis oblige them with enthusiasm and a methodical blood lust. They will kill all the male first born and every other male capable of taking up arms and resisting occupation. They will kill children and women and the elderly as well, though these are not the primary targets. Women breed sons who grow up to resist, so killing women makes sense.

If the Israelis could get away with it, they would murder every Palestinian who dared to resist and expel the rest from the sacred God-given land of Greater Israel.

Robert Fisk doesn’t talk about this. He likes to play footsie with the Zionist propagandists. For him, this is entertainment.

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By P. T., January 10, 2009 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment

If Israel is recognised, just what are the borders that are being recognised?

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By cruxpuppy, January 10, 2009 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

“Barbarism is inexcusable and lives long in our memories.”  Shift

Do you think the Israelis are aware of their barbarism? Very few are in that benighted country.

This is because barbarism has no memory. Barbarism is a degenerative disease. You catch it like a cold, usually in public forums. It causes the sufferer to forget who he or she is. Barbarism displaces humanity and the memory of humanity with self-righteous conviction and blood lust.

The greater part of the population of Israel has succumbed to this disease.

And it is here, as the vote in the US Congress demonstrates.

Those who are infected can be spotted easily enough. The first symptom is an inability to recognize barbarism when it appears.

The disease became epidemic following 911. Another symptom is a belief in the “war on terror”.

As a degenerative condition, it is especially difficult to treat. The prognosis is not encouraging.

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By Howard, January 10, 2009 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

” Hamas’s leaders must be blind. They do not have the eyes to see that the sustained bombing of Sderot has only produced human misery for Jews and for themselves. The Jews are fighting in Gaza. Innocent civilians die when Israel targets the terrorist infrastructure. Who is to blame for this crisis? Israel left Gaza long ago. This territory belongs to the Palestinians. Why in the world did Hamas fire rockets into Israel after it left? “

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167317192&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

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By Shift, January 10, 2009 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas Fields

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, January 10, 2009 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

January 8, 2009

Holocaust Denied

The lying silence of those who know
by John Pilger

“When the truth is replaced by silence,” the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, “the silence is a lie.” It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia’s incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew the why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking. It is they who hold the keys to the great storehouses of knowledge: the historiographies and archives that lead us to the why.

They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, “Israel’s right to exist.” They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine’s right to exist was canceled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous “Plan D” resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as “ethnic cleansing.” Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, “What shall we do with the Arabs?” Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, “made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, ‘Expel them’. The order to expel an entire population “without attention to age” was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world’s most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker. The terrible irony of this was addressed only in passing, such as when the Mapan Party co-leader Meir Ya’ari noted “how easily” Israel’s leaders spoke of how it was “possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the roads with them because such is the imperative of strategy … who remembers who used this means against our people during the [Second World] war … we are appalled.”

Every subsequent “war” Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land.”


http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=14015

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By Shift, January 10, 2009 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

Barbarism is inexcusable and lives long in our memories.

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By eileen fleming, January 10, 2009 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Here’s how it goes:

This afternoon I attended a rally in Orlando Fl, where over 2,000 people came together in solidarity for a bilateral cease fire and for the free flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza.

We ALL comprehend that only an end to the occupation of Palestine can ever bring security to Israel.

Tonight I caught the local NBC TV News of the event.

NO video of the over 2,000 strong and nonviolent activists.

NO interviews with any of the organizers but WESH TV did interview one of about two dozen counter protesters who was most ignorant and NO followup question from the ‘reporter’ holding the mike! 

So, while still flaming, i phoned WESH and expressed my distress.

I informed them i am a citizen journalist who has been to occupied Palestine 6 times since June 2005 and the USA MSM is culpable in why so many USA citizens know NOTHING about the last 60 years of misery of Palestinians.


Doing what i can in that struggle for justice, truth and the real American way;

Respect all people,
Honor all life.
Treat all others the way i hope they will treat me.
Hope for Change and “HOPE has two children. The first is ANGER at the way things are. The second is COURAGE to DO SOMETHING about it.”-St. Augustine


e
http://www.wearewideawake.org

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

Maybe if the Israelis got off the occupied land the Palestinians would quit firing at them.

Could it be that easy?

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By KDelphi, January 10, 2009 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

Very true—it is no bravery to take the side of the stronger, more well financed.

Thank you, Fisk….

Israel is busy destroying itself, while the uS does the same…judeo-christian Thanatos..

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 10, 2009 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment

Sad to say that these hypothetical and misguided arguments and comparisons cited by Fisk originated with Barack Obama, the new pro-Zionist disaster of the 21st century. Every misguided and apologist for Israeli terrorism is repeating the same thing uttered by Obama, with only a change in the names of geographical locations they cite for dramatic effects in the propaganda.

However, no one was able to counter with the following hypothetical question to Obama to match his oft-quoted hypothetical question making the rounds in the misguided news outlets and repeated constantly by the terrorist Zionists to justify their massacre of besieged, terrorized and under-armed Palestinians in their little parcel of land:

“What would you do Mr. Obama if on the morning after you settle in that Dark House of yours, you’ll wake up to a Zionist army surrounding it and cutting off all life’s basic supplies and necessities for months at a time and preventing your darling daughters from going to their very expensive private school in times when millions are worrying about whether they will be able to afford sending their children to public schools?!”

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