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Why Do They Hate the West So Much, We Will Ask

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Posted on Jan 9, 2009
Gaza Casualties
Theatrum Belli

Palestinian police and rescue workers carry a wounded policeman from a building struck by Israeli jets in the Gaza Strip.

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally printed in The Independent.

So once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. Forty civilian refugees dead in a United Nations school, three more in another. Not bad for a night’s work in Gaza by the army that believes in “purity of arms”. But why should we be surprised?

Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead—almost all civilians, most of them children and women—in Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?

What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties. “Israel makes every possible effort to avoid civilian casualties,” yet another Israeli ambassador said only hours before the Gaza massacre. And every president and prime minister who repeated this mendacity as an excuse to avoid a ceasefire has the blood of last night’s butchery on their hands. Had George Bush had the courage to demand an immediate ceasefire 48 hours earlier, those 40 civilians, the old and the women and children, would be alive.

What happened was not just shameful. It was a disgrace. Would war crime be too strong a description? For that is what we would call this atrocity if it had been committed by Hamas. So a war crime, I’m afraid, it was. After covering so many mass murders by the armies of the Middle East—by Syrian troops, by Iraqi troops, by Iranian troops, by Israeli troops—I suppose cynicism should be my reaction. But Israel claims it is fighting our war against “international terror”. The Israelis claim they are fighting in Gaza for us, for our Western ideals, for our security, for our safety, by our standards. And so we are also complicit in the savagery now being visited upon Gaza.

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I’ve reported the excuses the Israeli army has served up in the past for these outrages. Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them: that the Palestinians killed their own refugees, that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins, that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction, or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover.

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel’s right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel’s own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin’s government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006—a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border—were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn’t even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village—again after they were ordered to leave by Israel—and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.

And I write the following without the slightest doubt: we’ll hear all these scandalous fabrications again. We’ll have the Hamas-to-blame lie—heaven knows, there is enough to blame them for without adding this crime—and we may well have the bodies-from-the-cemetery lie and we’ll almost certainly have the Hamas-was-in-the-UN-school lie and we will very definitely have the anti-Semitism lie. And our leaders will huff and puff and remind the world that Hamas originally broke the ceasefire. It didn’t. Israel broke it, first on 4 November when its bombardment killed six Palestinians in Gaza and again on 17 November when another bombardment killed four more Palestinians.

Yes, Israelis deserve security. Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948—when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel— is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.


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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, January 16, 2009 at 4:35 am Link to this comment

By NozferatusMom, January 15 at 7:14 pm #

Does your mommy know you’re playing on her computer?

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By LCA, January 15, 2009 at 11:36 am Link to this comment

There is nothing new in the Israeli approach.  In the 1967 war they attacked a US warship, and their blatant lie that it was a mistake was accepted.  Their excuses have been accepted for the last 40 years in the US, so why should they change?

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By cyrena, January 14, 2009 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, January 12 at 2:41 pm #

I just noticed AJ Numbers posts have been deleted from this thread.

~~~~

Good eye PatrickHenry. I probably wouldn’t have noticed if you hadn’t mentioned it.

That’s a cheer.

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By Nozferatu, January 14, 2009 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

A repoHere are the pieces of shit in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJaPZLNLBu8&feature=related

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By Frosted Flake, January 14, 2009 at 8:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is sometimes thought there is no “Final Solution” to the problems between Israel and everyone except us. This is not so. Here are those terms. The question is, what is unreasonable about them?

  1 A sovereign and viable State of Palestine will be established side
by side with the State of Israel.

  2 The border between the two states will be based on the pre-1967
Armistice Line (the “Green Line”). Insubstantial alterations can be
arrived at by mutual agreement on an exchange of territories on a 1:1
basis.

  3 East Jerusalem, including the Haram-al-Sharif (“Temple Mount”)
and all Arab neighborhoods will serve as the capital of Palestine. West
Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and all Jewish neighborhoods, will
serve as the capital of Israel. A joint municipal authority, based on
equality, may be established by mutual consent to administer the city as
one territorial unit.

  4 All Israeli settlements – except any which might be joined to
Israel in the framework of a mutually agreed exchange of territories -
will be evacuated.

  5 Israel will recognize in principle the right of the refugees to
return. A Joint Commission for Truth and Reconciliation, composed of
Palestinian, Israeli and international historians, will examine the events
of 1948 and 1967 and determine who was responsible for what. Each
individual refugee will be given the choice between (1) repatriation to
the State of Palestine, (2) remaining where he/she is living now and
receiving generous compensation, (3) returning to Israel and being
resettled, (4) emigrating to any other country, with generous
compensation. The number of refugees who will return to Israeli territory
will be fixed by mutual agreement, it being understood that nothing will
be done that materially alters the demographic composition of the Israeli
population. The large funds needed for the implementation of this solution
must be provided by the international community in the interest of world
peace. This will save much of the money spent today on military
expenditure and direct grants from the US.

  6 The West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip constitute one
national unit. An extraterritorial connection (road, railway, tunnel or
bridge) will connect the West Bank with the Gaza Strip.

  7 Israel and Syria will sign a peace agreement. Israel will withdraw
to the pre-1967 line and all settlements on the Golan Heights will be
dismantled. Syria will cease all anti-Israeli activities conducted
directly or by proxy. The two parties will establish normal relations
between them.

  8 In accordance with the Saudi Peace Initiative, all member states of
the Arab League will recognize Israel and establish normal relations with
it. Talks about a future Middle Eastern Union, on the model of the EU,
possibly to include Turkey and Iran, may be considered.

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By Alina, January 13, 2009 at 1:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mr. Robert Fisk,
Another excellent article.
I wish more people would read it and put pressure on their governments, who in turn would put pressure on Israel.
BR.

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By Miguel, January 13, 2009 at 1:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jonathan Cook
January 12. 2009

NAZARETH, ISRAEL // Concerns about Israel’s use of non-conventional and experimental weapons in the Gaza Strip are growing, with evasive comments from spokesmen and reluctance to allow independent journalists inside the tiny enclave only fuelling speculation.
The most prominent controversy is over the use of shells containing white phosphorus, which causes horrific burns when it comes into contact with skin. Under international law, phosphorus is allowed as a smokescreen to protect soldiers but treated as a chemical weapon when used against civilians.
The Israeli army maintains that it is using only weapons authorised in international law, though human rights groups have severely criticised Israel for firing phosphorus shells over densely populated areas of Gaza.
But there might be other unconventional weapons Israel is using out of sight of the watching world.
One such munition may be Dime, or dense inert metal explosives, a weapon recently developed by the US army to create a powerful and lethal blast over a small area…

Read more at: http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0362.htm#Top

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By PatrickHenry, January 12, 2009 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

I just noticed AJ Numbers posts have been deleted from this thread.

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By TAO Walker, January 12, 2009 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther’s undoubtedly honest skepticism about the inevitability of “crimes” coming-to-light, and his reminder that conscientious people speaking-out have always much to do with it, certainly applies over “the-short-run.”  The institutions set-up by domesticated Humans to hopefully facilitate the workings of “justice” are pretty much limited in-scope to what their institutors’ own “range” of understanding and purposes permits….not to mention how historically susceptible they’ve been to subversion.

Life Herownself is subject to no such “tunnel-vision,” of-course….or corruption, either.  Neither are us Human Beings who abide within Her Song ‘n’ Dance (as differentiated from those caught in some mental/emotional CONstruct made-up by people cut-off from their Natural “environment,” with all the flawed and half-formed institutional, ideological, and electro-mechanical systems that result from such isolation).  So when this old Indian suggests that “Murder will out,” it is from the perspective of a long view, one supported by what the actual effects and consequences, on “perps,” of their sociopathic behavior always proves to be.

This isn’t to say those here now, calling attention to armed aggression and the atrocities accompanying it, aren’t a literally VITAL part of that natural process.  It might be better for all concerned, though, to minimize to the extent possible “moralizing” about such things.  For one thing, at this late date we ALL have some blood on out hands.  For another, the disease of which violence and dishonesty are only a couple of many awful symptoms is itself not even subject to “moral” judgements, nevermind curable by them.

Certainly “truthers” here should keep-on-keepin’-on.  Their efforts will become much more effective, though, when they are consciously part of the organic function of Humanity within the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth.  As “individuals,” however well-intentioned and eloquent, their voices cannot overcome the howl of the runamok machinery-of-death amplified so soul-smotheringly by its subsidiary electronic audio-visual apparatus.

Together in the Tiyoshpaye Way we have a chance.  As “individuals” we are, by design, dead-meat.

HokaHey!

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By elianita55, January 12, 2009 at 2:38 am Link to this comment

Why do they hate us? Perhaps because of the manner in which the United States continues to hamper all international efforts that could potentially be unfavorable to Israel.

To much of the world, the United States’ blind support of Israel is something of a mystery. Many of us forget that this indiscriminate support is quite recent: when Israel was created in 1948, President Harry Truman’s advisors were strongly divided on the issue of recognizing the new state. This mostly forgotten fact seems astonishing in light of recent American foreign policy towards Israel, marked in particular by the intensified support of the Bush administration and American neoconservatism.

There is, of course, a strong and understandable religious underpinning to the broad public support Americans have displayed since the 19th century for the creation and protection of the Jewish state. Amazingly, it is this support that often commands American foreign policy choices, perhaps even more than the political Israel lobby does.

But in 2009, and in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks and the war in Iraq, which is nothing less than directly responsible for the growing instability in the region that we are currently witnessing, we must beg the question, when does an allegiance become a liability?

For more: http://www.ilpodesta.org/2009/01/one-sticky-alliance.html

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By mud, January 12, 2009 at 1:33 am Link to this comment

2 Fun flix on the subject.

http://tinyurl.com/99pa6d

http://tinyurl.com/7glxk8

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 11, 2009 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment

In connection with the previously posted message from my friends at Jewish Voice for Peace, they recommended to watch Jon Stewart segment at the following link:

http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/

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By Nozferatu, January 11, 2009 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

NozferatusMom:

Did you say something?  Hmmm…I didn’t quite hear it….can you stop dribbling and whining and talk more clearly?

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 11, 2009 at 6:27 pm Link to this comment

This is a message from my friends at Jewish Voice for Peace. I am only sharing it with rational human beings on TD. If you are not one of them, just ignore it!
==================
Dear Fadel,

Just a few days after the bombing of Gaza started, my rabbi, Rabbi Brant Rosen here in Evanston, Illinois had the courage to write something on his blog* that may forever change his life, and the lives of those around him. As I read it, I could literally feel the earth shift beneath my feet. He said,
Send a note to Jon Stewart. Tell everyone you know to watch the segment.

We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world, but are all too willing to give Israel a pass. It’s a fascinating double-standard, and one I understand all too well. I understand it because I’ve been just as responsible as anyone else for perpetrating it.

So no more rationalizations. What Israel has been doing to the people of Gaza is an outrage. It has has brought neither safety nor security to the people of Israel and it has wrought nothing but misery and tragedy upon the people of Gaza.

The earth is shifting on this issue when the people to whom we look for guidance about right and wrong, people like Rabbi Brant, finally speak the truth- that killing will not bring peace. Not for the Israelis, not for the Palestinians, not for anyone. Many people from my own congregation, including my own daughter, wrote him to say “Thank you, thank you for finally saying these words out loud.”

I felt something similar when I saw Jon Stewart on The Daily Show on Monday night. While almost all of the mainstream news in the United States has reported the story without any context whatsoever, repeating the lie that this is a simple case of Israel defending its people against irrational attacks, it was Jon Stewart, the main source of news for an entire generation of Americans, who got it right**.

He talked about the “soul-crushing” siege of Gaza, the occupation that has forced Palestinians to go through checkpoints to do anything at all, the perverse logic of trying to “get a war in” just before Obama’s inauguration. When I watched this segment, I knew the earth was shifting. And I knew I had to thank Jon, and to make sure everyone I know watches his segment.

We all know that if every Jew in America said no to Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians, it would still happen, because it has is seen as serving the interests of our country’s foreign interests. And it is supported by Christian fundamentalists who believe it is one step closer to the end times. That’s why we all need to work together- every single one of us.

So thank Jon by going here. And then tell everyone you know to watch this video. Tell your friends that if it seems like what is happening now is wrong, that’s because it is.

By the way, the last haunting words of Rabbi Brant’s post were these: “There, I’ve said it. Now what do I do?”

At Jewish Voice for Peace, it’s our mandate to answer that question. We’re planning a broad-based response that we know will make a difference, and the heart of that response will be every single one of you. We’ll ask you to have those conversations with everyone you know, to educate yourselves, to let the world know peace with justice is possible.

Stay tuned,

Lynn Pollack
Jewish Voice for Peace

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By PatrickHenry, January 11, 2009 at 5:14 pm Link to this comment

AJ1009,

It is seldom one gets to communicate with a mighty Zohan tanker as yourself. 

Given your arrogant armchair commando demeanor (homo erotic fantasies aside), I doubt they let you fire the big gun. 

I don’t frequent fire zones anymore, my 2 tours in the Marines cured me of that.  Now I work in the Washington DC area which has a larger homicide and crime rate than Israel and its occupied territories combined. 

So forgive me if I don’t buy into your candyass IDF
bullshit and the jury is still out on 9/11 and the perps who pulled that one.  If Israel is complicit, be afraid, very afraid.

Check six.

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By KDelphi, January 11, 2009 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

NosMom—I am sure that you won alot of support today!  Without the uS, Israel will not be able to continue this crap!

The young are TRYING to turn on you—but you keep shutting them down…

I think that the US military should be condemened for what they are doing. AND for the bombing in Afghsnitan…what has it achieved??

If you had real courage, you would join and Israeli anti-draft group

But, instead, your govt is silencing them:

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=69504§ionid=351020202

I wondered why I wasnt getting their newlettesr anymore—the govt is charging them!! fascist!

The ex-Marine I am living with (he was drafted, too) says youre full of sh*t!

My semite brother-in-law thinks so , too..

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By KDelphi, January 11, 2009 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

“Dispelling the myths of the victors is not automatic, but must be consciously attacked to destroy them.  And this is not easy to do, and doubtlessly is not always done.”

Folk—Well said. I was searching for those words a couple of weeks ago. Where did you hide them?

ie; someone said, “this time, the history will be re-written by the losers, thanks to Obama” I am not even sure what the hell that means , as I type it..it must have seemed to be a position worth arguing with at the time…...

Zionism does not = Judaism

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By Rob, January 11, 2009 at 10:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ll be blunt. It is with cold conviction that I must say I don’t care about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict anymore. Why? Because there is no end in sight. It is an endless cycle of revenge, attack and counterattack. Both groups continuously state their historical claims and grievances, and I don’t find either side worth supporting. Not to mention that this conflict is firmly rooted in superstition, as the so-called “Holy Land” is the epicenter for the destructive dogmas that plague the Western World and the Middle East to this day.

Why must this little strip of desert land deserve so much universal attention? Because of religion

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By Old Geezer Pilot, January 11, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This may be a dumb question. I will ask it anyway.

WHY ARE THERE REFUGEE CAMPS IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK?

Is it to keep the fires of hatred stoked? The false hopes of families that one day the will indeed return to their homes in Haifa from which they fled under sage advice from their leaders in 1948?

After WW II, millions upon millions of refugees were re-settled, some across oceans, to places where they could begin new lives, looking forward not backward.

And they have succeeded.

So we Americans pay the lion’s share of the UN budget, and the UN operates (under UNRWA) these refugee camps, which have NO FUTURE for any of their inhabitants. Just days, months, and years of bare existence and the continuous opportunity to seethe with anger at their predicament.

They look out at Israel, prosperous and free, from their prison camps, much like an inmate must have done at Alcatraz, just a few miles from San Francisco, but completely unreachable.

How cruel. How unnecessary.

And has anybody every wondered why Gaza, with 22 miles of the most perfect Mediterranean beach front property, has never become a destination resort? Are there no investors in the Arab world smart enough to build their alabaster cities in Gaza instead of the steam bath that is Dubai.

This insanity has been going on for 60 years. It will always produce the same result until we, the world, choses to stop it.

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By octopus, January 11, 2009 at 8:09 am Link to this comment

War. The universal economic stimulus package.
Welcome to Heaven
Population: 0

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By Tex, January 10, 2009 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Someone brought up the idea that we might react like the Israelis if groups in Mexico were to lob rockets into random places here along the border. What nonsense! We have had gunfire across the border, and Americans have been hit. When that happened, the US border authorities and El Paso city police joined forces with their Mexican counterparts to locate the perpetrators.

There are numerous groups lobbing rockets into Israel from Gaza—why does anyone assume that Hamas has any control over all these people? Given the historical record of Israeli false-flag operations, it would not surprise me to find out that Mossad was behind the rockets lobbed over the border during the truce.

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By Folktruther, January 10, 2009 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

TAO- Is it in fact true that murder will always out and the victors perverted version of history eventually be overturned?  I ceretainly hope so but I doubt it, and certainly not without conscious effort.

When I was a boy in Western Pa I went to the nearest town, Uniontown, every Saturday to see the Cowboys and Indians movie at the Penn theatre (twelve cents.)
Every Saturday these unreasonable savages, for no reason at all, would attack the settlers with unspeakable brutality.  They were just horrible.

Fortunately there was always a cowboy or calvary officer or someone goodlooking in a White Hat who would defend the settlers and things always ended for the best.

I grew up and forgot the Cowboys and Indians.  Somehow, not through an Elite formal Education, I learned that the White Man massacred the Indians, and through untreated disease enormously decreased the population.  We were in Rome last year and met an American resident who had a Master’s Degree in something who was taught that this was entirely myth and the White Man was really nice to the Indians.

But the point is, the image of the childhood moveis remained in my consciousness along with the real history, and it never occurred to me how I was propagandized by the Entertainment Industry until Chomsky recetnly in a piece stated that Cowboy and Indian movies were the equivalent of Nazi and Jew movies.

Nor did it occur to me that both Israel and the US were based on ethnic cleasing until an Israeli peacer, Uri Averny, made the comparison. And both US and Israeli power structures justified the eithnic cleansing with the preconceptions religious ideology,, not least that of the Chosen People.

What I’m saying is that unless there are truthers who speak from the perspective of the population, rather than the schoolbook history of power, the myths and power delusions of the power structure are indoctrinated without opposition.  In both conservatives and progressives.  Dispelling the myths of the victors is not automatic, but must be consciously attacked to destroy them.  And this is not easy to do, and doubtlessly is not always done.

And that is one of the things we should be attempting to do, especially in the US where American ideology is so delusive.

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By cyrena, January 10, 2009 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

“To call for the end of israel is to call for the end the Judiasm as we know it.”

~~~

NOT TRUE AJnumbers.

Nope, this is the confusion that you people have continued to perpetrate, but the bottom line doesn’t change. It would NOT be ‘the end of Judaism ‘as we know it’, because any end of Israel would be the end of Zionism, NOT Judiasm!!

How could it be the ‘end of Judaism’ as we know it, when Israel is only 60 years old. Are you suggesting that ‘Judaism as we know it’ didn’t come into existence until 1948? That’s what it sounds like.

At some point in time, this propaganda of using a religion, (in this case Judaism) to promote what is clearly a POLITICAL IDEOLOGY no different from any other former abusive regime, like the Nazis for instance - they promoted their GLOBAL IDEOLOGY as well…it was Nazism, and the Stalinists had their Communism, and the Zionists have their Zionism. It is NOT a religion, and it is NOT Judaism.

So maybe you need to go back 60 or so years to before the time that the racist state of Israel was created, to really know your own religion. Judaism, NOT Zionism. In principle and in practice, the two are polar opposites, and incompatible.

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By KDelphi, January 10, 2009 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

AJ109—I have a solution (but I dont think you’ll like it).Mythical religious assertions aside, everybody out!

Let’s turn it into a memorial, as Shenonymous suggested on another thread (I had said bomb it—after you get all the people out)

Its just s fricking piece of land that needs to be heavily irrigated to live on. It is not worth all of this death.

It is inifinetely better than “no solution at all”, as you suggest.

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By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

By Nozferatu, January 10 at 3:13 pm #

Easy on Howard, it’s his job.

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By Nozferatu, January 10, 2009 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

Thanks LOU for posting.

And everyone…keep your eyes sharply focused on that troll Howard…..

Ignore him…he’s a pathetic troll and seems to have an AIPAC fist up his ass telling him what to do.

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By Nozferatu, January 10, 2009 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

HOWARD:

COPY PASTE COPY PASTE…

Is that the best you can do?

I’ll make sure where ever you post this nonsense, I’ll try and be there to expose your IDF/Zionist drivel.

The cracks are showing….isn’t it great?

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By Howard, January 10, 2009 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Hamas cannot govern.  They destroyed the multi-million greenhouse and farms that Israal left behind in 2005. I mention this because Israel realized when that happened that Hamas was not in the realm of considering any type of governing to help their people ecnomically, socially or educantionally.

When Hamas took power they finished off this facility by tearing it down completely

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/6586.htm

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By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

By AJ1009, January 10 at 1:45 pm #

If you are so adamant pro Israel, you should live there. 

I hope you are on the front lines.

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By TAO Walker, January 10, 2009 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

What “westerners,” if they were anywhere near as smart as they like to think they are, would be truly alarmed-about is not middle-easterners’ here-alleged “hatred of the West.”  It is the moment these jingoistically-(and mistakenly)-designated “others” grasp exactly how totally irrelevant to their lives “the West” has rendered itself.  Don’t look for that to dawn-on “the West” anytime soon, though.

Meantime, Cornerstone with his/her some-“group”-shooting-at-Texas-from-Mexico false-argument, and others offering similarly flawed apologies for Israeli behavior, conveniently ignore or gloss-over the fact any “group” doing that is sure to consider the territory they’re “launching attacks into” as having been illegally taken and occupied by Texans and/or Israelis, for example.  In both instances the actual “record” would clearly support such a claim.

Aggressors always assume their relentlessly parrotted self-serving “version” of events must eventually prevail, just as they expect their “superior” arms will finally once-and-for-all subdue the resistance of those they assault.  “History” written-by “the victors” always turns-out to be no more definitive, however, than the self-puffery of any other ad-campaign.  Murder, in fact, will out!  So these assumptions and expectations just as often turn-out to be utterly (and disastrously, for the perpetrators) WRONG!

“When will they ever learn?”

HokaHey!

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By AJ1009, January 10, 2009 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

if the muslims control there land that they make pilgramage to why can’t the jews?  And to boycott israel would mean to throw away all computers with intel products in them, any microsoft products you have, say goodbye to google, cause they have a facility in israel.  Oh and don’t forget to boycott any company that Warren Buffett owns, because he invests heavily in israel.  All i’m saying is to boycott israel you would be turning yourself into a hermit, and be reading a book by some american, cause thats the only thing that you would be able to use that doesn’t have ties to israel.  They have the largest generic pharmacuetical company, so throw any generic meds out the window.  to boycott israel is harder then to boycott your own country.  Now for the comparison with the nazi’s.  Hamas, iran, syria, all these countries call for end of israel.  To call for the end of israel is to call for the end the Judiasm as we know it.  that is exactly what the nazi’s did.  If Israel could exist without getting shot at.  They wouldn’t shoot back.  WE don’t hate.  The torah DOES NOT TEACH US TO HATE OTHER RELIGIONS!!!!!!!  like the quran does.  I don’t know why i keep looking at these postings.  the only people on this site are ant-semetic ignorant sheltered americans.  I condem israel for there current offensive.  But the overall rhetoric comming from this is from ignorant sheltered americans that don’t know anything about the outside world.  and yes israel is doing some very bad things that i am against, but i will always stand by israel over the USA anytime.  and support them, i might not agree but i do support.  I don’t want to see inocent civilians die.  but hamas is putting them in danger maybe they should stand up for themselves against there own people and say enough we want peace you are not giving us.  Israel is only defending themselves.  It might be lost in all the carnage but that is the truth.  And G-D whilling someday the dome of the rock will be torn down and all the jews will be in israel as ONE!!!!  The Torah does not teach us hate, it teaches how to defend protect ourselves while makeing the world a better place.  And by taking out the evil hamas and other terrorist organizations, that is making the world a better place.  we are nothing like the nazi’s.  you guys are, with all this rhetoric you spewing.  And yes, the rhetoric might be true, but israel has that right.  And there not war crimes.  its defense.  and you might say i’m ignorant, and you know what, I AM, and i will proudly admit that.  I am an ignorant jew that wants israel to live in peace and be a country.  and the 1947 boarders are not the solution either.  there is not solution.  There hasn’t been one for 60 years, there will only be peace if one of the sides waves the white flag.  and its not going to be israel.

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By Folktruther, January 10, 2009 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Since the US media is so out of sinc with the world media,  the largest of them are creeping up to get a more effective media position.  This occurred in the article in the Wall Stret Journal, and this moring occurred in the Zionist NewYorkTimes.  It detailed some of the military struggle.

Since Gaza is sorround on all sides by Israli military, except for a six mile strip with Egypt, who collaberates with Israel, the only way Hamas can get food into Gaza, and the amunition needed to continue to resist, is through tunnels.  There are apparently many of them of different sizes.

Israel wants to destroy these tunnels, so its starvation blockade is entirely effective and they can crdibly threaten to starve the Gazans to death.  Mubarak, an Israeli collaborator like Abbas, is prevevnted from destroying them by the Egyptian people. 

It is therefore absolutely essential that Israel be prevented from destroying these tunnels.

If they do so they can steal the offshore gas from the Gazans, worth about 4 billion dollars.  And do anything else they wish since they are in a total barbaric state during the Israeli election.  But the longer the pseudo-war goes on, the greater the support of the Gazans around the world.  And the more that even the American media must adopt a more realistic and moral perspe;ctive.

So time is against the Israeli military, as it is against the Gazan population, who are starving.  Consequently a boycott and sanctions of Israel would put more pressure on Israel to stop the barbarism. There are demos at Israeli embassies around the world, including one by Jews in NY.  If it is possible to threaten to increase a boycott of Israel, and divest investment in it, this would serve to destroy this offensive just as international pressure helped destroy South African apartheid.

  BOYCOTT ISRAEL   NO ETHNIC CLEANSING

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By Thomas Mc, January 10, 2009 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Israeli leaders have now called for the “total extermination” of the Palestinian people, yet scream “anti-semitism” if you dare to compare them to the Nazis. I think, rather, it is an insult to the Nazis.

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By mark, January 10, 2009 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The people who love taking my $$$ and giving is to Israel say “what if this was Mexico??”

If a terrorist gang in Mexico fired rockets at random on America, then hid out in a school or hospital in Mexico, the US Military would NOT launch missles into the school to kill the bad guys. As well as the inoocents there.

The US military are not racists monsters who kill innocent non-Jews for joy and then say “we regret dead Arab children wink wink nudge nudge blah blah”

What a crap military! Send in Special Forces to take out the enemy and protect the innocent.

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By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

By AJ1009, January 10 at 10:04 am #

Why don’t the Israelis withdraw to the original mandated lands of 1948.

Uproot all the illegal settlments and give the land back to their rightful deeded owners.

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By hab, January 10, 2009 at 11:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Place a full economic blockade on Israel.

No U.S. Foreign Aid (spread the word that Israel has been the #1 recipient for decades—eve though that money was intended for the starving third world).

Ban all official university exchanges.

Ban Israeli participation in international sports.

Ban all Israeli cultural exchanges.

Force AIPAC to register as agents of a foreign government.

Investigate AIPAC for possible blackmail and control by a foreign government.

Ban dual U.S.-Israeli dual citizens in the Executive Branch and the military.

Divest in Israel.

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By AJ1009, January 10, 2009 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

if the world wants peace, why doesn’t another country take in the palastinians and seperate them from the israelis?  wouldn’t that create peace?  if israel was surounded by countries that didn’t hate but didn’t care if israel was there would there still be peace?  or would israel still have that same threat they have always had to defend themselves against.  I’m not defending there actions pertaining to this article, those civilian atrocities and defendless, and should be very disapointing to every zionist and israeli.  but would there be peace if they were seperated?  oh and the 1967 boarders would not bring peace.  If we went back to those boarders they would use our holiest of holies as a garbage bin like jordan did before the 1967 war.  what would The Muslim faith think if we turned the dome of the rock into a garbage bin.  they would attack us.  there is no solution, there will be no peace until the palastinians can live with the fact they have the land they have, and deal with it.  we pray towards jerusalem, they pray toward mecca why is jerusalem so important?  because Muslim’s root are in the Torah?

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 10, 2009 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

Supplicating To God!

Dear God!

I might not be worthy of Your seeing my spiritual crises, or Your hearing my heart-felt supplication. I confess my personal shortcomings and I admit my own guilt in my un-willful participation in wars, injustices and killing of innocent children in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Africa and elsewhere, either through my tax-payer money and / or my silence or inaction to prevent atrocities from happening.

Dear God!

I admit my sins of omission through my silence or through my failure to do more than just writing, protesting, condemning and being angry and sad. And I confess my sins of commission through my tax-payer money, which is partly used for wars, killing and destruction.

Dear God!

You know that I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown, so I am supplicating to You before I can supplicate no more. I am supplicating to You not in my name or the name of any adult over 18-year old who might have participated, willingly or unwillingly, by omission or by commission, in promoting wars and killings or causing corruption on Earth or destruction of its healthy resources, or by cheerleading warmongers, hate-mongers or fear-mongers.

Dear God!

I am supplicating to you in the name and on behalf of all the innocent children of the world who have become the victims of wars, conflicts, and weapons of mass destruction, devised, developed, financed and used by the merchants of death in many parts of this sad and troubled world. Those merchants of death are not other than evil, cruel and misguided adults who hold political, military and industrial powers, and who through using crude and chauvinistic slogans manage to fool the misguided masses who are driven to participation like herds of animals.

Dear God!

You must know better than anyone else that humanity is at the brink and it needs Your wise, just and miraculous interference to save it from its path of destruction. And moving from the general to the specifics of my supplication, I would start with my current homeland, America, which I am sure You know is at the center of many unjust wars in different parts of the world. Because I want You to save the many innocent, decent and good people of this part of the world from the slippery slope of destruction that the political-military-industrial complex are leading her to, I supplicate to you to surgically interfere to destroy the evil and misguided ones’ symbols of power. Please dear God send limited and pointed natural calamities on the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA headquarters, the factories of weapons of mass destruction and the storage places of these weapons stockpiles. And please God, it would be nice if this would happen before January 20, 2009. Your surgical, limited and pinpointed natural calamities are welcomed in the forms of fires, meteors, localized earthquakes, earth inundations, localized floods and the like that take care of the criminal ones and save the good and decent ones.

(Part 1 of 2)

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 10, 2009 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

(Part 2 of 2)

Dear God!

And please, simultaneously, do the same in Israel in particular, the Middle East in general, Russia, Europe, India, Pakistan, Africa and every part of the world where there are evil ones with their weapons of wars and mass destruction. In other words, Dear God, You need to do a general clean up of all the centers of evil powers in the whole world! You need to do it miraculously and surgically if you want the surviving decent people to believe that You Do exist!  I say this because an increasing number of humans, out of despair, believe that You don’t exist as the One Universal God of Justice. And as I write, I see on the top of the screen an advertisement for a DVD entitled “The God Who Never Was.” In fact, all appearances indicate that this world is increasingly dominated by forces who are the followers of Satan. I am myself was raised to believe in You as a One Universal Just God. However, in my spiritual crises, I’ve been slowly moving from faith to the borderline between faith and non-faith.

Dear God!

And after you do a good universal clean-up of the sources and centers of evil and corruption on Earth, please, Dear God, send us one Final Book to serve as a universal constitution for the surviving good humans. This must be a Book that supersedes and abrogates your previous Books in the forms of the Torah, the Bible and the Qur’an. For as You know, these ancient old books have been, at best, used and abused and misinterpreted by recalcitrant human beings, or have been, at worse, tampered with and corrupted beyond their intended purposes.

Dear God!

And while you are at it, please remove from the hearts of all surviving humans all forms of rancor, hatred, bigotry, crude chauvinism and nationalism and greed, and make out of all humanity one brotherhood and sisterhood. And please, Dear God, remove all national geographical bounders from the earth, so people are free as birds to travel over all Your wonderful world and marvel at Your wonders and creation!

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By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 10:30 am Link to this comment

By Lou, January 10 at 9:37 am #

Thanks for sharing that.

This is what defines a 1st rate professional army from the candyasses the IDF are. 

No wonder they want the U.S. to fight Iran for them, the Iranians would clean their clocks.  They did however, through their sayanim proxies in PNAC, get the mindless twit Bush to order the U.S. to invade Iraq, for no good reason.

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By kloe, January 10, 2009 at 9:51 am Link to this comment

Truthdiggers,

I posted a similar request to all of you on another thread regarding the same topic.  I urge all of you again to do the same so that we can begin a ground swell of internet posts both on Truthdig and everywhere else.  Please write your Congressmen/woman and Senator and the post the letter here and anywhere else.  Clearly, the mass media is not covering this crisis appropriately or fairly so WE need to take it upon ourselves to do so.  Stop just griping about it and being cynical and frustrated.  I know its easy to do but we must fight that urge and try to do something reactive that holds our politicians feet to the fire.

Dear Ms. Schakowsky,

I have written to you via your web site on a few occasions.  I recently wrote to you approximately two weeks ago and I am again addressing the same issue. I.e. the current crisis in the Gaza strip.  As I’m sure you are aware the UN has just yesterday urged investigation of possible war crimes being committed by both Hamas and Israel.  As I stated in my previous letter, I am not interested in taking sides in this madness, but it is without a doubt extremely clear that the disproportionate response on the part of Israel has caused mass murder of innocent civilians.  Even such a conservative newspaper as The Wall Street Journal, has just published an op-ed piece accusing Israel of committing War Crimes.  Please see the following link:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Incredibly, I note on your web site, your statement regarding the Gaza strip takes on the same old tired clichés of how Hamas should recognize Israel’s right to exist, and that Israel has been under attack for years by Hamas terrorists, etc, etc.  Who cares about the politics right now when innocent people are being killed enmasse?  Where are your priorities?  Do you not have any sense of putting aside your politics to address a crisis?  Is it more important that politics are negotiated before you have the courage to stand up and state that Israel’s response is completely abhorrent?

You are in a position to actually show the People of the United States and the World that as a member of the Democratic Party you really are going to be “A Change We Can Believe In”.  Here is your unique opportunity to show the nation you really mean it.  Stop making these ineffective statements and start making demands on behalf of the citizens of the U.S. who do not want to be complicit in allowing Israel to commit these heinous crimes.

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By Lou, January 10, 2009 at 9:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In response to the whiners of “If a group were launching attacks into Texas from Mexico..
A Marine who had recently gotten out the the service and had served in Iraq vehemently agreed with this sentiment:
’ I am dismayed by the rhetoric from US politicians and pundits to the effect that “if the US were under rocket attack from Mexico or Canada, we would respond like the Israelis”. This a gross insult to US servicemen; I can assure you that we would NOT respond like the Israelis… Israel has indeed taken a small number of casualties from Hamas rocket fire (about 20 killed since 2001), but we have taken thousands of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, including many civilian personnel. Hundreds of American casualties have occurred due to indirect fire, often from mortars. This is particularly true in or near the Green Zone in Baghdad. This fire often originates from densely populated urban areas.

Americans do not, I repeat DO NOT, respond to that fire indiscriminately. When I say “indiscriminately”, I mean that even if we can precisely identify the source of the fire (which can be very difficult), we do not respond if we know we will cause civilian casualties. We always evaluate the threat to civilians before responding, and in an urban area the threat to civilians is extremely high. If US servicemen violate those rules of engagement and harm civilians, I assure you we do our best to investigate—and mete out punishment if warranted. There are differing opinions on the conflict in Iraq, but I am proud of the conduct of our servicemen there.

With that in mind, I find the conduct of the Israeli army in Gaza to be brutal and dishonorable, and it is insulting that they and others claim that the US military would behave in the same way. I know the Israelis are operating under difficult circumstances, but their claim that they follow similar rules of engagement rings hollow; I see little evidence for this claim given the huge number of civilian casualties they have caused from indirect fire. ‘
http://www.juancole.com/

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By PatrickHenry, January 10, 2009 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

By Howard, January 10 at 6:47 am #

I guess the Palestinians prefer their own miserable form of democratically elected government than the utopian one provided by the israelis. 

I’m sure Israel didn’t leasve anything behind to benefit the Palestinians in 2005 except mines and cluster munitions.  The only thing they want to give Palestine now are 1000 lb. bombs.

Its the overkill of the israelis which is mind blowing, imagine your neighbors dog biting someone and next the whole block is deemed a free fire zone.

We need some of these outraged nations to start providing advanced anti-air and anti-armor weapons to the Palestinians which will allow them to fight back defensively.  Lebanon could use some anti-air weapons to keep Israel from overflying that country with impunity.

The arrogance of the Israel “Zohan army” can only understand one thing and that would be a heavy body count of their ranks.

Israel needs to be bitch slapped back to reality.

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By moineau, January 10, 2009 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

“My own theory is that it’s never really about ANY of those things that you mentioned, though there’s always a component of competitiveness based on real or imagined scarcity in all similar conflicts. But the land, the natural resources, or even the money, sex and drugs (the last two being pretty far down the food chain and most likely not particularly an issue in societies other than the USA) are just the physical placeholders for what I believe boils down to: POWER. It’s always, at the end, about the POWER.”

hey, cyrena. how are doing today? :>>)) just a couple of thoughts about this. certainly, money, sex and drugs may be far down the food chain but those are the three things most on the minds of most people in the world. i’m sure you don’t mean that only in the us are people occupied with these: japan, thailand, china, afghanistan, india, south africa, france, spain, greece, iceland, greenland, brazil, argentina, canada, usa; i think we can safely say that these three things dominate most people’s thoughts and motivations.

i’ve been thinking a lot about the nexus between power and sex and what constitutes pure “sex” and pure “power”—do they even exist—and how sex it seems has become the ultimate weapon for power. (has it always been this way?) now death does a very good job of it temporarily, but sexual humiliation is going to be huge part of it too. there have been so many sexual attrocities committed in all these wars, and i’m asking, is it possible that the killing of women and children have a sexual motivation in it, a total commitment to killing civilians being ultimate sexual dominance? as my partner often reminds me, men get erections often when they kill. it would be interesting to study how much the killing of civilians is tied into sexual humiliation and dominance, the ultimate snuff film. perhaps this is too weird to think about, but it’s been dominating my thoughts for some reason, not happily and with a great deal of anxiety.

purple girl, we cannot know how much israel has been been involved with u.s. interventionism during the last wars. i would bet that israeli intelligence has played a major role in them, and that this has developed into a tit-for-tat relationship. i think it has been definitively shown that israel’s action was planned at least six months before, and before the ceasefire ever started. i believe that the us and probably parts of europe gave their tacit approval, and the us went even farther, selling these “smart” bombs just prior to the start of it, around a month ago. (there was some secret debate and i wrote letters during the small window of the in-kind sale’s consideration.

so who knew in congress? probably the top brass of intelligence at least. i think it’s true what someone here wrote that the dems have become the biggest congressional instrument of israel. this leads to my big question, where was obama on it? we’ll probably never know as he was able to use his non-position to bow out of the debate. this allows him to ride in later with the clintonites (and clinton herself) to continue the unevenhanded “diplomacy” we’ve seen in its most glorious under bill, when the biggest lies of who did what and who didn’t agree were perpetrated on the american public. arafat became the unreasonable game player and israel the hero. but he’s been poisoned now so that’s a moot point. not.

just some thoughts this morning, some running thoughts because i can’t stop thinking about it. there is suffering all over the world right now, but nothing quite like this mass killing, not since iraq in 2003-2005. i couldn’t stop thinking about that either.

frankly, i think it is all just further fulfillment of sharon’s vision that he could accept a palestinian state on israel’s border as long as had a diminished population that was controllable. that explains gaza, in my opinion.

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By Zeya, January 10, 2009 at 8:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Finally someone who has the courage to call a spade a spade. Thank you for your article. This should be mandatory reading for everyone in our country, especially elected officials such as our President-elect and his new Secretary of State designee.

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By omop, January 10, 2009 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

Reading and looking at the photos of the following link should give one the answer as to why “they hate the West So much”.

  enjoy.

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=++++++
http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/&sl=fr&tl=en&history;_state0=

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By Howard, January 10, 2009 at 7:47 am Link to this comment

The cause of the current crisis lies in Hamas policy. Israel withdrew totally from the Gaza Strip in 2005, giving the Palestinian Authority an unusual opportunity to govern. Hamas took most of the seats in the January 2006 elections, and while the group used the poll to announce it was the winner, it gave up the responsibility of leadership. It had built a reputation of violence, and found opposition easier than governance. It did little to improve Palestinian life. Rather than develop industry, it destroyed the multimillion-dollar businesses which Israel left behind to help build the Palestinian economy; rather than eliminate corruption, it diverted millions into Hamas bank accounts.

Here the United Nations and donor countries have been unintentionally a bad thing. By subsidizing Palestinian schools, health, and welfare, this kind of free monies removed the accountability upon which good governance depends. Hamas need not make the improvement of Palestinian life a priority when it knows that the UN will bail it out. And, because money is so liquid, this aid only furnishes Hamas with resources to spend on arms.

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By cyrena, January 10, 2009 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

CJ,

I’m glad to run across you here again. I’d done a lengthy reply to a post from you probably over a week ago, and I can’t even remember the thread now that was involved. Basically though, it was an acknowledgment of the reality of not being able to have it both ways. I clearly agree with you, except that well…sometimes we can. (There’s always an “it depends” with me wink ) I think it depends on the perspective we’re viewing from.

Anyway, on this:

•  “..Lending a whole lot of credence to what Hedges wrote of last week about hearts of darkness. Unfortunately. Just how mean, how nasty? To what lengths will humans go? For what? A few feet of territory? Some oil/water? Some money? Sex? Drugs? How disgraceful. How undignified, how bestial. (Not to insult beasts of the earth.)..”

If I remember correctly, (without going back to look at the last few articles from Hedges) this same one with the mention of ‘hearts of darkness’ also references Hannah Arendt and other intellectual Jews of the time – which considers this phenomena far more extensively. Hannah Arendt does an excellent job of explaining this as the Banality of Evil, and I think it’s worth folks’ researching this phenomena if they really want to understand.

It’s painstaking and difficult comprehension, because the human mind (supposedly civilized) has a tendency to completely reject any comprehension of what could make people behave so barbarically. But it’s worth it for anyone who really would like to try and UNDERSTAND it, based on the hope of finding some permanent resolutions.

My own theory is that it’s never really about ANY of those things that you mentioned, though there’s always a component of competitiveness based on real or imagined scarcity in all similar conflicts. But the land, the natural resources, or even the money, sex and drugs (the last two being pretty far down the food chain and most likely not particularly an issue in societies other than the USA) are just the physical placeholders for what I believe boils down to: POWER. It’s always, at the end, about the POWER.
This has been an extremely difficult concept for me to absorb – even intellectually, because the long term result of it is ALWAYS a crash, whether it’s a nation or an individual. At some point in time, these Power Mongering Psychopaths eventually create their own demise. So logically, it makes absolutely NO sense! But, there it is, and that’s the paradox. Enemies are ‘created’ where they don’t necessarily exist, and after a while, the insanity becomes the norm.

Anyway, the work by Hannah Arndt REALLY does inform this debate. It’s worth reading: “The Origins of Totalitarianism.”

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By Folktruther, January 10, 2009 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher provides a link to a Wall Street Journal opinion piece that condemns Israel for committing war crimes. This is a (small)indication of a break in the linkage of Zionism and neoliberalism in the Gop ideology.  Murdock, who owns the Journal, may have a less intense attachment to Israel then Zionist opinon, and certainly less than the NYTimes. Zionism is beginning to violate the dollars and sense approach to foreign affairs.

A similar break occured in a dialoge between Brzezinski and Scowcroft in a recent book AMERICA ANDTHE WORLD.  Zbig, who mentored Obama when he was at Columbia University, is a fierce anti-Russian and is instrumental in increase tension between the US and Russia, the two major nuclear powers.  Scowcroft, the National Security Advisor under Bush 1, vehemantly disagrees with Zbig, taking a more progressive position.

This appears to be happening with the Journal as well, the more war-like Zionist position being held by the Dems and ‘liberal’ media, as occurred during the Vietnam war.  The non-Zionist wing of the ruling class may be beginning to assert itself. This can be exploited by increasing pressure through a world bocott of Israel advocated by Naomi Klein.

      BOYCOTT ISRAEL   NO ETHNIC CLEANSING.

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By Purple Girl, January 10, 2009 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

The political ideology which has Controlled this country for decades has played out it’s hand. Americans not only hate Bushco, but nearly all in congress, the Senate and on SCOTUS.Hell we hate those Religious leadeers who can’t be dragged off the stage nor the microphone out of their hand (Warren).
Why is it if anyone calls the Isreali Gov’t Bloodthristy murders are they considered antisemetic. I hate the Bush Admin,but it does not mean I hate America or Americans.Israel has been sucking off our teat for 60 yrs and what have we gotten in return…Attacked repeatedly.Did Isreal jump into to help US in Afghanistan, Iraq? No because they Can’t! Certainly have not helped fund this fiasco, send any weaponry and certianly no diplomatic assistance. No Israel has been hell bent on make the Fuck up even worse. How many more soldiers will die in Iraq & Afghanistan as a direct result of not onl Israels fish shooting bonanza, but Our Politicians Blind allegience to this massacre.
WE get attacked again, and I am pointing my finger and my outrage at Israel and their ‘Friends’ who live here in their safe havens. There is not only blood on the hands of these enablers from Palestinians, there will be American blood on their hands too…and they too will not be able to wash it away.
Fuck the Israel Gov’t let them reap what they have sown…For Once!

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By moineau, January 10, 2009 at 4:29 am Link to this comment

thank you for the pictures, nosferatu. i have nothing to add to robert fisk’s piece that could be more telling than these. ~laura tattoo

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By John Hart, January 10, 2009 at 12:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The perverted relationship between the US government and Israel can be explored in the attack of the USS Liberty by Israeli forces.

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By Nozferatu, January 10, 2009 at 12:40 am Link to this comment

This was very painful for me to do.

Here’s some proof…and believe me…these aren’t photo shopped like most of the pictures the lying sacks of shit from the IDF doctor up:
————————————————————————-
gaza_mother_dead_children:
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images7/palestine/gaza_mother_dead_children.jpe
————————————————————————-
The body of 3-year-old Palestinian girl, Bara’a Habib, during her funeral in Gaza City Wednesday July 26, 2006.
http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/13.jpg
————————————————————————-
Shahd Okal, 8 months, right, and her sister Maria, 5
http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/07.jpg
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8 year old girl killed in Gaza, Palestine
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/2004_war_photos_november_1/8_year_old_girl.jpe
————————————————————————-
A hospital worker shows journalists the bodies of four children after their house was shelled by Israeli tanks in the Beit Hanoun neighborhood of Gaza Strip on Monday while they were having their breakfast. (Reuters)
http://www.arabnews.com/2008/04/crime29_.jpg
————————————————————————-
If this picture doesn’t make you fall down and cry …
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2008/2/28/1_771423_1_34.jpg
————————————————————————-
Wounded boy - Gaza
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/xinellum/gaza-wounded-boy.jpg
————————————————————————-

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By Nozferatu, January 10, 2009 at 12:26 am Link to this comment

Howard:

Actually what the American people need to understand is not to listen to drivel like yours. 

I’m not sure where you get your paycheck but I’d guess AIPAC pays you to go around the internet and post your bullshit up all day long. Hence the copy/paste techniques you use.

If you want to stop looking like a complete lying tool, the very least you can do is TRY to put on a good face and act like a human being and admit to FACTS that everyone but zionist racists like yourself can’t admit to.

Your people kill others indiscriminately.  Your people murder others indiscriminately.  Repeat after me.

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By Nozferatu, January 10, 2009 at 12:21 am Link to this comment

Tony:

Let’s pray you are right….

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By Tony Wicher, January 9, 2009 at 11:28 pm Link to this comment

Hey, everybody, check this out: an article on the Op Ed page of the Wall Street Journal accusing Israel of war crimes. You heard right, the Wall Street Journal!
Check it out:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

What’s happening? Is the Zionist grip on the U.S. media loosening? It sure looks like it!

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By Jeffk, January 9, 2009 at 10:40 pm Link to this comment
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CJ, when you say

“Just how mean, how nasty? To what lengths will humans go? For what? A few feet of territory? Some oil/water? Some money? Sex? Drugs? “

you should def be thinking of it more as an eternal existence in heaven. it has little to do with land, oil, money, sex, or drugs, and everything to do with religious dogma that turns a piece of worthless desert into something people purposely kill innocent civilians for.

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By CJ, January 9, 2009 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

Outstanding, Mr. Robert, whose account of that missile directed into an ambulance on a rural road in southern Lebanon any can read in his terrific book, “The Great War For Civilization.” That was the Hellfire missile the parts of which he carried to Georgia to ask of makers, upon presentation of remaining bits, if they knew and how come. Pgs. 779-88. Fisk’s account is unforgettable. As is his account-ing now.

No matter, as grossly incompetent or just wilfully ignorant members of Congress passed resolutions in support of Israeli government’s ruthlessly murderous assault and battery, this time on Gaza. Assault in words (excuses), battery to bodies that a few moments, hours or days ago were still alive, just hanging on under conditions of ongoing blockade.

Lending a whole lot of credence to what Hedges wrote of last week about hearts of darkness. Unfortunately. Just how mean, how nasty? To what lengths will humans go? For what? A few feet of territory? Some oil/water? Some money? Sex? Drugs? How disgraceful. How undignified, how bestial. (Not to insult beasts of the earth.)

Elliott wrote something of wasteland and slumping. Fisk points to presidents and prime ministers all of whom are culpable. Israel does not act alone, though specific officials shamefully hide behind always-ready-to-hand charge of anti-Semitism. Shamelessly disrespectful of those Jews who were systematically murdered in the millions not very long ago. Along with communists, Gypsies and homosexuals no one should ever forget.

Victims are the ones who are supposed to know. Those who’ve been victimized are the ones we look to for knowledge of the worst.

Israel, under circumstances of international system of nation-states (nationalism unfortunate in more ways than one), has acted and is still acting—if not from the outset, though from then too—as agent of vengeance. In full knowledge if more-open Israeli mass media is also to go by. But Israeli people, not unlike American people, claim one thing and then vote another thing. Israel’s government is deserved as much as is U.S. government. Hamas for Palestinians? Not the same thing. Anymore than was or is ANC for black South Africa.

Fisk recounts offensive offenses always excused, sometimes by the most ridiculous of claims: bodies dug up to plant for purposes of appearances. Arabs, in particular Palestinians, are dimly regarded as so lame-brain half-witted… As a matter of course, of convenient belief. A belief propagated/promoted especially in American mainstream media.

But not everywhere. Just yesterday, Goodman had on Martin Indyk who claimed he wasn’t expecting Norman Finkelstein who also appeared. Maybe he wasn’t, which was Indyk’s problem. Indyk leveled charges at Finkelstein, who responded as he usually does—with factuality that Indyk was hard-put to deny, though he did deny, of course.

Reality, insofar as it can be known, has always been the problem, the problem leaders and their followers have always had to find ways to skirt as they’ve pursued any and every agenda but for the one they supposedly recognize and then claim to have at heart: justice for all.

Well known is that lying begets complication as lies compound. Still lies, as liars deceive themselves, or if not that, as they know very well they will never be held accountable.

Most offensive is leaders and followers instructing you and me of taking responsibility.

Hedges must be right, as Fisk is attesting here once again, as before so many times. I can no longer conceive of circumstances serious enough. History is not conveyed as minds are ever-more distracted. Not cynicism but despair. Too few even know to object. Yes, as Fisk writes, there will be ugly consequences, whereupon no one will have any right whatsoever to wonder why when those occur. But they will wonder, once again by then having forgotten, assuming they ever learned enough to forget.

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By Howard, January 9, 2009 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

What the American people need to understand is that Zionism continues today as a political movement that primarily encourages support for the modern state of Israel.

Most do understand that the world over, despite calumnies, falshoods , aspersions that try in vain to color it something else.

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By Cornerstone, January 9, 2009 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nozferatu,

You miss understand my comments.  I really don’t give a **** who wins this conflict.  I do not support Israel any more than I do the Palastinians. 

My point is, if you are attacked, then you have a right to respond and protect.  Everyone is blaming Israel for the deaths in Gaza.  No one seems to be questioning why the Palastinians are allowing Hamas to launch rockets by a school.  Hamas is putting the Palastinians in danger by their actions.

Israel has the right to retaliate against Hamas’s aggressive actions.  Take the names out of the picture and present this issue as a blind experiment and most people would agree that a country has the right to defend itself.

I haven’t followed this issue for 60 years and do not care to.  People have been fighting in that area since Moses was a baby and they are not going to stop anytime soon.

The point is, if you are attacked, you have a right to defend yourself.

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By Folktruther, January 9, 2009 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

What the American people need to understand, and are beginning to understand, is that the Zionist power struture does not merely have an untter contempt fot Arabs, or Muslims, it has a basic contempt for EVERYONE.  It is only interested in Zionist power, and couldn’t care less for the American people, including the American Jewish community.

This is perhaps best illustrated by its contempt of the UN.  It humiliated the UN’s (Kewish) represetative to Israel, Richard Falk, shelled with shrapnel two or three of UN schools and facilities,killing many mem women and children, and shot UN aid delivers to continue the starvation blockade.  The only food and medicine comes from the UN and the Gazans are now literally starving to death, including the children.  Half the people in Gaza are under 16.

This horrifying war on the population could not take place without Bush-Obama agreement, both the Dems and Gop leaders supporting what they call Israeli Defense.  Only Kucinich vigorously objected to the House resolution applauding the stravation blockade, the bombing and the invasion. 

Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing, as
Brewerstreupe has documented,  and with this Christmas war on Gaza, a new depth has been reached, as Global research has written. 

With its anti-people values, Israel is increasingly ready to deliberately mass murder the Palestinian population, just as it did in the Lebanon camps in the Lebanon war.  But not by the thousands but now by the hundred thousands.  With US assistence.

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 9, 2009 at 6:59 pm Link to this comment

This piece is a good summary of the history of the state-sponsored Western and Israeli terrorism against Arabs and Muslims. However, documenting the full history of this topic will fill the pages of a thick volume.

Hence, Robert Fisk, on the occasion of the on-going latest Israeli terrorist atrocities brings in focus the very important and logical question that the Israelis and their Western supporters, in their arrogance of power, have never attempted to understand or imagine its consequences in the short and long terms.

However, Fisk ends his piece without asking an important follow-up question related to the future possible consequences of this justified hate for Israel and the West. It’s in the nature of human beings that the aggrieved party will always try to find opportunities and ways to settle accounts, taking the matters in their own hands, in the absence of international forums for justice. And needless to say that this creates viscous cycles of conflicts and wars. So when the big ones take place, sooner or later, the arrogant ones have only themselves to blame for not understanding the basic nature of human beings or learning the lessons of history; for those who don’t learn the lessons of history are bound to suffer its tragic consequences!

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By PatrickHenry, January 9, 2009 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

By Howard, January 9 at 5:37 pm #

Obviously you are detached from the word “occupation” and haven’t experienced living in a land where you can be killed at any moment by a foreign army.  Your a “terrorist” and don’t know it.

Hamas is just an affiliation like Democrat or Republican.  It is already in the West bank.

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By Noah, January 9, 2009 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment
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Cornerstone and Howard both continue to believe that Israel has been innocent of all wrong doing since 1948. I wonder where they get this notion. They continue to ask “if mexico was firing rockets…If Canada was firing rockets… if [insert name here] was firing rockets…” but they neglect to ask themselves, “how would I feel if my nation, my family, my friends were under a foreign occupation for 60 years. If I saw everyone I know and love suffer under the worst humanitarian conditions since the Warsaw ghetto. If my people had been living under the threat of ethnic cleansing for 60 years. Would I maybe become violently opposed to this state of affairs. Would I then believe that I have been given certain unalienable rights by my creator among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all of which have been taken from me and my people for generations.” Would not a revolutionary act be understandable if not justified? And to think our nation was born from people not wanting to pay their taxes, so they went to war to rebel.

You can call me anti-semitic if you choose. I know it is not the case. I also know that Israel is practicing (and has been for decades) ethnic cleansing of the palestinians. There is no question about it. The only question is do you support it, or do you condemn it as you would the holocaust?

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By Howard, January 9, 2009 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

The myth of “occupation” is us just that…a true falsehood.  The idea of “occupation,” as applied to Gaza and Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”), is a myth. When the Egyptians controlled Gaza for almost twenty years nobody accused THEM of being occupiers. The Jordanians, who were in possession of Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”) and much of Jerusalem for the same length of time, were not considered occupiers by the other countries of the world or even by the inhabitants of the area. The Israelis were labaeled “occupiers” when, after a war of extermination against them, they prevailed in 1967 and came into possession of these territories.

They would even give up even more land and territory. But they have received in return no peace or security, even to this day. Just like they left gaza and received unremitting missles and rockets as a result.  If Hamas gets into the West Bank they can send missles into every city of Israel.  Cloee the airport every day in the future. Can’t see the Israeli’s being to eager now to allow that to happen.

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By manalo, January 9, 2009 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You know, it just occurred to me.  The Zionist babykillers share a religion with the Fed Chairman and Governors (every one), who are driving the world into a new dark age with their malfeasance, and the majority of PNAC signers, who hungered so for a new Pearl Harbor back before 9/11—it almost seemed they had foreknowledge.

Could it be that “we are the chosen people” is actually a mistranslation of “we are the only people.”  Gosh, ya think?  I guess that would make the rest of us less than human—dogs or apes or something.  Then they could shoot us down like stray dogs—which is just the way they treat Palestinians.

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By PatrickHenry, January 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

By omygodnotagain, January 9 at 2:25 pm #

Bravo, 150 words or less and you pretty much explained it.

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By PatrickHenry, January 9, 2009 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

By Nozferatu, January 9 at 2:59 pm #


Howard….

I believe the internet definition is “Spamming”.

Typical JIDF, they do it to our congressmen 24/7.

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By Jeff, January 9, 2009 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

They hate us because the Koran tells them to hate non muslims. To think that Hamas, for even 1 second, would take care to protect civilians is beyond foolish. To say the israel kills civilians on purpose is also foolish. Some people just can’t see the most basic moral differences here. Hamas wants dead civilian Jews, Israels, no matter how cruel, do not aim to kill as many civilians as possible. Ask yourself, if Hamas had the power that Israel does, would it have shown even 1% of the restraint Israel has? The answer, of course, is no. They would kill as many as possible in their hopes to bring about Islamic rule to the rest of the world.

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By Nozferatu, January 9, 2009 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Howard….

You’ve copied and pasted the same drivel about 3o times now.

You are a true student of “repeat it enough and people will believe.”

Your time is coming up fast.  Quickly….assimilate before you’re found.

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By Nozferatu, January 9, 2009 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

Indeed…

People like Cornerstone and Howard are trolls who just spew more of the same bullshit they’ve gotten away with for the last 60 plus years.

They are desperately trying to entrench themselves in all cultures so when the shit hits the fan, know will know who they are anymore.

I hope and notice that most people are getting really sick of their whining and “ant-semitism” claims.

As Norm Finkelstein stated, anti-semitism is no more prevalent than it was before…and hasn’t prevented jews from doing anything they have wanted to do…even though they constantly claim it’s held them back and is such “an evil” thing out there.  More bullshit.

What do you expect when they are the ones at the helm of the majority of the media?

Too may trolls here pumping jewish propaganda.  Ignore em.

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By Nozferatu, January 9, 2009 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Fisk,

I liked your commentary.  But what amazes me is someone with so much experience, and so much insight, can still be A) either ignorant or B) know willingly why the Israelis get away with what they do.

You of all people, who is in the media business, know damned full and well who pulls the strings in the media in countries like the States. 

You of all people, who is in the media business, know damned full and well who pulls the strings in Washington though powerful lawyers and lobby groups like AIPAC.  Do we need reminding that they are jewish?

So. You see all these atrocities, you see who’s doing it..but you still can’t come out and say that they are the preferred group, they are ones in control.  They are the ones who feed us this bullshit propaganda about their suffering is more important than everyone else’s due to the holocaust.

I can understand why you probably don’t want to admit that outloud…even if you have admitted it quietly to yourself….you’ll be out of a job.

You’ll lose your career, you’ll lose your reputation, and you will be outcast like so many other truth-speaking people as anti-semitic…and God forbid anyone is labeled that.  That’s the end of you.

Frankly, I couldn’t give a damn about 10 Israelis dying in 20 years when 600 Palestinians are dying in a week.

How can people justify the existence of Israelis a family standing in front of their car trying to flee is blown down by a 50 caliber Gatling gun in close range by some scumbag pilot?

I don’t understand you Mr. Fisk.  You same some good stuff but at the same time frankly you don’t go far enough and end up ridiculing the wrong people. 

I have examples of these but won’t get into it here.

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By Howard, January 9, 2009 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Nice paragraphs, CORNERSTONE.  No one will respond to your accurate words, though.

One-sided article by Fisk here above. Full of innuendos and falsehoods. Have yet to see an article that tells the Israeli side.  Imagine.

Hamas is at fault.  Cannot govern.  A disaster for its people. Only stated goal is to destroy Israel. Instead of building a nation or a hint of one, they started bombarding Israel since 2005 with thousands of rockets.  No mass media in the West gave a darn.  Israel kept warning Hamas. No one gave a darn.  Hamas finally provoked Israel into action.. As any nation would do to protetct their people.

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By omygodnotagain, January 9, 2009 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

Robert Fisk, like Chris Hedges is a Journalist with ethics. If Israel wants to exist in the Middle East it has to get along with its neighbors.  Israel has invaded Lebanon 8 times since 1948, it has the longest running occupation of the 20th century. The kneejerk reaction of pro-israel supporters, who can never see Israel do anything wrong, is part of why the ME is becoming more extreme.
Consider: The reason the Palestinians are mad at the Israelis is that they stole their land in 1948, so what does Israel do, take more land by building settlements on the West Bank… now how is that likely to create peace? It doesn’t, merely creates more extremists Palestinians.  Then Israel says it is worried about security… what nonsense

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By cj, January 9, 2009 at 3:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ahhh, another Israeli apologist Cornerstone restates the lies and rationalizations offered by the criminals in Tel Aviv as if nobody here has heard them before.

Sounds like the same bullshit offered by Bush, Cheney, et al-repeat a lie often enough and people believe it.

As many others have said, it’s hard to distinguish Israeli actions from those of the Nazis.

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By whitebeard, January 9, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

“What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties. “Israel makes every possible effort to avoid civilian casualties,” yet another Israeli ambassador said only hours before the Gaza massacre.”

Not so amazing. They continue to buy the same lie when told by American administrations and military spokespeople.

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By Cornerstone, January 9, 2009 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hamas began this by firing rockets into Israel.  Israel, justifiably, retaliates.  Israel, today, stopped firing their military actions and offered a cease fire.  Hamas stated they were not interested in a cease fire and continued firing rockets.

Hamas had rockets set up in the UN School or very close precimity.  Israel took out the rocket site, unfortunately causing injuries and death at the school.  It is the people of Gaza who are to blame for not standing up to Hamas and letting them use this location for their attacks.

If a group were launching attacks into Texas from Mexico and the Mexican government was not doing anything to stop it, retaliation by the US would be justified.  For some reason Robert Fisk, amongst other journalist, believe that Israel should sit back and allow these attacks. 

Had President Bush demanded a cease fire when this started, Hamas would not have complied, just as they are not interested in one now. 

I wonder if Mr. Fisk’s neighbor was attcking him in his house if he would defend himself or sit and be paitient and wait for it to end.

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By RdV, January 9, 2009 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

Maybe someday they won’t have to ask the question and in outrage—take it out on the Jews. It is unfortunate that Israel now hones the image of the lying unscrupulous Jew. That blowback could be ugly. 
  Crying antisemitism now for legitimate grivances with Israel risks calling wolf too many times by the time the real wolf is at the door.
This is dangerous water.

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By WriterOnTheStorm, January 9, 2009 at 11:43 am Link to this comment

Amazingly, Fisk climbs up on the high horse to defend the Palestinians. He skillfully outlines atrocities committed by Israel. He takes great care to evince the correct progressive stance on Israel’s alleged morality and civility. Then he throws all his hard work right out the window in the last paragraph.

In that little phrase, “Israelis deserve security”, lies the justification for every one of the ‘civilized’ massacres he cites. Ask yourself the following: Is security something inalienable, or something the world community gives you? Who decides which nations/peoples deserve security and which don’t? What about Palestinian security in 1947, and ever since?

As long as observers like Fisk keep asking the wrong questions and making the wrong assumptions, the colonial project will stay on schedule. As long as the debate is about strategy, the minutiae of body count, and eye-for-an-eye morality, the chosen people will keep right on building additions on the house of yaweh.

You don’t need to be rocket scientist. You don’t need to be a U.N observer, or have a degree in international law. You don’t need to bone up on death tolls, military strategies, or comparative religion. You don’t need to know your Balfours from your Mandates. You don’t need to read Chompsky, Finklestein, Dershowitz, the bible or the Koran. You just have to know the difference between right and wrong.

And care.

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By ib hernadnez, January 9, 2009 at 11:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well said, thank you

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