KDelphi,

What does “Neo” mean and how does it apply when you refer to “neo-liberals” and “neo-conservatives”?

You are using the term incorrectly. It makes you appear foolish and unknowing in matters of politics and current events.

On top of that perceived foolishness you recently asked aloud why you would want to read the words of bin Laden or Zawahiri yourself. You claim you looked through some of these writings but found them “unrealistic”.

Unrealistic.

Usama bin Laden’s letter to Americans titled “Why We Are Fighting You” is unrealistic to you. Or bin Laden’s “Oath to America”.

You claim you would not know what to do with the information embedded in the many writings regarding “The Youth of Islam: Jihad and Martyrdom”.

In this case ignorance is not bliss.

Know first hand why there are people who want you dead. Begin to know the rationale some of these people use.

And I ask again; What is the definition of “Neo” and why are you using it in the manner you do?

I mean, “New European Order”

I meant non combatant evacuation operation…

KDelphi,

Your scary catch word, “Neo”, you are aware you’re using the term incorrectly?

TNKUBush—I have told you that I am NOT a so-called “liberal” (and you are not a “conservative”—you are a neo-conservative fascist)That is what Bush and his buddies are

I am a socialist. If you enjoyed the Wall St bailout—you love neo-cons and neo-libs! If you are an armchair fan of the “war on terror”, and the countless beheadings that have resulted , possibly , from the torture used by Bush and Fans Club, at GITMO ndn Abu Gharib, you’ll love neo-boths! If you enjoy kissing up to royalists like the Saudis—you will love neo-cons and neo-libs.!!

Hey, why are you here? Didnt get a chance to join the Army yet, or, IQ too low?

You should be saying “thank you neo-cons and neo-liberals! Yes, they will continue your “war on terror”, that you jack off to, your war on the poor, by not rolling back the obscene tax cuts, etc.

You should be wishing your country “good luck”—its going to need it.

Not only has Obama indicated that he is not going to prosecute the Bushite torturers, but he has also indicted that he is going to join them.  According a piece by Greenwald on CommonDreams and Salon, Obama spoke yesterday on ABC News for the need for a new “process” TO DETAIN TERRORISTS EVEN WEHN THE EVIDENCE AGAINST THEM IS ‘TAINTED.” 

This is mainstreamspeak for a call for an American police state. You can get any kind of evidence you want from a prisoner by torturing them intensely long enough.  They will say anything you wish.
this evidence can then be presented to a rigged court who will convict them of anything they wish.

But of course Obama is against torture, and says so, just as Bush was, and did. Bush constantly stating publically that “we do not torture.”  Obama has announced that he is going to authorize the elimination of Gitmo on his first day in office.

Of course that doesn’t mean it will be eliminated.  Shutting it down is so omplicated! It will take many months.  And he has been silent on the torture of prisoners in the prison ships and other Amereican prisons around the world, and by US client-states.

He is going to continue torturre because, as John Brennen, his intelligence adviser, has stated publically, it is a ‘vital tool’ in the War on Terrorism.

Which it is.  The War is aginst Muslim populations, and increasingly against the American population,  and anyone who resists US occupational power is a Terrorist, which is combated by torture.  And this will be increased in the US as well, since neoliberal imperialism cannot be effectively promoted without the US becoming a police state under the codewords of protecting the Security of Freedom and Democracy.

Obama has been put in office by neolib imperialists to continue the counterrevolution of the Bushite regime.  This requires police state measures, since neoliberalism increases class ienquality.  It is now being done under Obama and the Dems, rather than Bush and the Gops.

Don’t bother putting W or any of the other wealthy guilty on trial - it will cost too darned much. 
  Rather, blame all the low-brow jokers who voted for W - the ones who continue to support and thank him even now.  THEY are the real culprits - without them W would never have had the chance. And toss in the loaded supreme court jurists that appointed W as Pres.  The legal fees will be far less costly by aiming low.

Thank you President Bush for water boarding Khalid Mohammad. You likely saved thousands of lives.

One of the best things I’ve done in life was to vote for you twice. You make me proud of myself. I can’t begin to describe how proud I am of you.

Thank you Mr. President.

By KDelphi, January 10 at 4:13 pm #

“Youre right. I certainly do not want to talk about AQ at length with a Bush supporter”…

—-

Now that you put it that way. Imagine my surprise to find yet another liberal bigot.

Pick up a copy of “The Al Qaeda Reader”. Do read it this time.

Good luck!

Thanks! That Counterpunch article is excellent!

http://www.counterpunch.org/

By Uri Avnery

There is an insightful article on Counterpunch today which details Russell Means equation of the origins of the US in its ethnic cleansing of the Indians and the Isreali origins in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.  These historical origins, which Uri Aveerny pointed out had a religious ideological basis, largely accounts for the close relation of US-Israel ideologically, and their increasing historical isolation from the rest of the world.

The ones who “obeyed orders” on this one, are already in prison.

Bush et al should pay an even higher price. If the country thinks that we can “move on” from this—citizens are mistaken.

Trust me.

Our gubmint has HUNTED DOWN WAR CRIMINALS[their term} of other countries and MADE SURE THEY PAID FOR THE CRIMES-I remember some nazi guy[sorry I can’t recall the name] just a few years back…...BUT WE ALL KNOW-THERE ARE DIFFERENT RULES FOR THE U.S.A.[our own war criminals].....

Folktruther:

You are hopeless.  I will leave it to others (if they wish) to follow the line of our conversation and determine what occurred.  I feel confident that they will agree with me that you went over the line and engaged in unnecessary and uncalled-for ad hominem attack.

Peace.

Well, Maani, the LEFT BEHIND series was the only part of your faith that I mentioned.  What were you referring to?

Folktruther:

To my comment that “As well, your reference to my faith is the most blatant ad hominem attack I have ever seen.  It is not even up to YOUR usual standards,” you replied with:

“Maani, you mean you actually BELIEVE that stuff in the LEFT BEHIND series?  It never occurred to me. I just assumed that you considered it worthless swill like everyone else.  Of course I only read the comic book version, I’m not a real religious scholar like yourself…I didn’t know that your religious faith in delusion had evolved into the more fashionable and modern fantasies.  It explains a lot.  Well, as I wished Trith, have a safe Landing at the Rapture, when Jesus beams you up.”

May I ask, please, how you got from my comment - which merely notes that I am a person of faith - to your four-paragraph diatribe against me, including the “Left Behind” series - which I never mentioned? In mean, I know you LIKE to engage in ad hominem attacks, but this seems truly a stretch, even for you.

Peace.

Maani, you mean you actually BELIEVE that stuff in the LEFT BEHIND series?  It never occurred to me. I just assumed that you considered it worthless swill like everyone else.  Of course I only read the comic book version, I’m not a real religious scholar like yourself.

The only detail I remember was that the anti-Christ was Romanian.  I had a Romanian friend I used to play tennis with and he used to cross court drop shot me, an old man, in what I regarded a highly unsportsmanlike way.  I used to upbraid him for his ethnic group producing the anti-Christ-indeed, he might have BEEN the anti-Christ for all I know-but I couldn’t get him to stop drop shoting, evidence against him.

When I referred to TRITHOVERLIES, the religious dingbat, as your colleague, I was joking.  I assumed that your justification for the slaughter of Palestinian children on the grounds that they might be Terrorists came from the Holy Bible. 

The sins of the Fathers, etc, unto the nth generation apparently being part of the Nine Commandments. They are usually referred to as the Ten Commandments but the priests seem to have miscounted.  In my Bible I only count Nine, and I swiped it frma an very expensive hotel, so it must be right.

I didn’t know that your religious faith in delusion had evolved into the more fashionable and modern fantasies.  It explains a lot.  well, as I wished Trith, have a safe Landing at the Rapture, when Jesus beams you up.

Folktruther:

“Maani—What I meant by Brennan being Obama’s chief intelligence adviser was that Breennan was the chilf intelligence advisor to Obama. I didn’t mention Homeland Security.  Being filled with fantasies and perverted values of traditional religion, and havng admitted to reading the LEFT BHIND series in its entirety, including no doubt a close apprisal of the commic books, I can sympathize your inablity to understand plain English.”

You can spin it any way you wish: Brennan was NEVER Obama’s “chief intelligence advisor” - YOUR wording. He was AN intelligence advisor during the campaigns, but even then he was not the CHIEF advisor.

As well, your reference to my faith is the most blatant ad hominem attack I have ever seen.  It is not even up to YOUR usual standards.

Peace.

Maani—What I meant by Brennan being Obama’s chief intelligence adviser was that Breennan was the chilf intelligence advisor to Obama. I didn’t mention Homeland Security.  Being filled with fantasies and perverted values of traditional religion, and havng admitted to reading the LEFT BHIND series in its entirety, including no doubt a close apprisal of the commic books, I can sympathize your inablity to understand plain English.

Brennan, a strong proponent of torture, was touted to be in line for the CIA dirrectorship, but the torure stigma eliminated him aad he withdrew. It’s advisors like Brennan that are responsible for Obama becoming Flexable on torture, as the Dem Senate chairpersons, like Feinstein, are.

Folktruther:

“As Dihey has pointed out, Obama’s chief intelligence advisor, John Brennan, is a strong proponent of torture…”

Get your facts straight.  Brennen will be DEPUTY National Security Advisor for HOMELAND Security.  He was never in line for the top intelligence spot, and he took his name out of the running for CIA director BECAUSE he felt his association with “controversial interrogation techniques” would not fit with Obama’s clearly stated plans to end torture completely.

Is someone going to have to check everything you say just to make sure you don’t try to foist incorrect claims as “facts?”

Peace.

The disclosure of Valarie Plames cover was and is grounds in itself for impeachment of Cheney.

Ops were aborted, peoples lives endangered to promote a zionist lie.

So far from prosecuting Bushites for torture, the most likely future is that Obama will Bring Us Tegether to continue it.  The obvious ploy would be to abolish Gitmo, since it is so visible, and continue torure by the US in prison ships and prisons areound the world, and by US client-states.

As Dihey has pointed out, Obama’s chief intelligence advisor, John Brennan,  is a strong proponent of torture, implementing it when he assisted CIA chief Tenet, and publically stated on TV that it was a “Vital Tool” in the War On Terrorism.

And he is quite right.  The fraudulent War On Terroism is actually a war against Muslim populations, largely in the interests of Israel, and, like Israel, the US uses torture to terrify the population from resisting oppression.  Many of the Dem leaders, chairman of Intelligence committees, like Feinstein, are now advocation Flexibility in prohibiting torture.  And old Hope n Change is nothing if not Flexible.

The mainstream truthers supposedly against torture advocate imposing the American Military Manual on the interrogation of prisioners.  What they do not say is the American Military Manual permits torture, in the fine print in the back.  The Geneva Conventions do not, but attoney general Gonzales under Bush considered these ‘quant.’  So does Obama, but being a highly Religious Believer, he will Religously oppose torture while politically permitting it.

Incidentally, Obama’s mom, so far from being a conventional religious nut, was a free spirit who lived the life of an emanciapated woman.  Sometimes these values are not inherited.

Maani—good articles. It is ourselves that must have a reckoning, and, we shall all pay the price. That cannot be avoided.

I have my doubts, that the Am people will bear the burden of the guilt, without holding the main orchestrater responsible…

Conyers idea of “truth and reconciliation” is better than doing nothing. It is the only standard we hold other countries to, but, we shall have to drop the “moral superiority” crap…

If the U. S. is where “no man is above the law,” and where we have a “nation of laws, not men,” then at least 100 government officials should be tried, convicted and hanged (at Nuremberg, to give justice its due).

In light of this article, the following might be of interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/opinion/11transitionsweb.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

Also (and keep with it; it’s there):

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/opinion/11rich.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

Peace.

Youre right. I certainly do not want to talk about AQ at length with a Bush supporter…

KDelphi,

I mean no disrespect. At this point I don’t believe you’re interested in a wide ranging discussion with me regarding Al Qaeda. And you admit your are in no position to discuss the subject in depth.

I’m sorry. And again I mean no disrespect. I can’t imagine offering much of an opinion before I have studied the subject to the very best of my ability.

Again. Good luck to you.

THNKUBush—Yes, I choose to ignore bin Laden and Al Zawahiri. You think you read a book of essays by them, and believe every word of it?

Boy, you fulfill their propaganda wishes completely!!!!

I did not say that I read the entire book.(so you are basing all theories on one book?) It is pointless.(Unless you like that kind of stuff) I am not working for a US security agency. What would i do with BL, and AZ’s “informmmercials”?

What do you do with them? Fearmonger?

KDelphi,

Essentially you chose to ignore bin Laden and Al Zawahiri or, you were less than honest about reading the book.

Good luck.

Give George an opportunity to demonstrate his innocence of all these charges.  He & the other six dwarves are entitled to prove their innocence.  It would be unfair to hold them to a higher standard than they so freely gave.  Oh, and no torture.  but perhaps a little ‘hydraulic interview’ might do the job?

THNKUBush—Yes, I guess I should have said that I did not find the rants that I paged through, to sem to be “real”. If they were, I still have no desire to read anyone’s religious rants—christian, jewish, islamist, buddhist, etc. Just dont care to hear it. I think that there should be someone in the CIA who analyze’s them, and puts their conclusions in a Presidential Daily Briefing, so the president can respond IMMEDIATELY!!

Why do as they wish?

Did you READ where Gray says that al Qaeda ia a western phenomenon? The Taliban may not be (it was founded as just a school), but the AQ network, was formed in response to actions taken by the west. I am not justifying it, I just think that AQ came about in response to actions that the west has taken, against the population, to secure resources , for the rich , here. We are still committing them today.

I do not “rely only Gray”, I just think that reading fear-mongering religous rants ia a waste of time. I have read Peter Bergen, and, tried to read an English translation of the Korran. It’s similar to other books of prophet…

Or, do you just think that people of Arab descent are genetically prone to be—“terrorists”? Do you think that the leaflets dropped today, by IDF , NOT “telling people to leave” (where the hell would they go), but, just telling them that “the worst is still coming”—do you think Jews, who are of Arab ancestry, are genetically prone to be terrorists too? How about Europeans—-they’re (we’re) doing a pretty fair job of “terrorism” ourselves, in Iraq, Abu Gharib, GITMO, and paying people in Egypt, Uzbekistan, etc, to torture people for us. (no need, we seem to be able to find people, uneducated troops and contractors to do it)Blackwater is a prime example of a “teroorist” group. If one believes in the concept of “terrorism”.

It is a “concept”. If you thtink tahat the ‘war on terror” wil work, why would you not also trust the “war on drugs”, the “war on the poor” (as I like to call the war on poverty), and, other wars on “concepts”.

If any of these concepts, originally had good intentions, they have long been lost in the clutter…

I believe someone said that when Fascism comes to the USofA it will be wrapped in the flag carrying a cross.  I think the USofA has just about seen that with the so called Christian rightwing and Bush’s GWOT.

But as far as punishing anybody as they say in certain parts of NYC, Fuggedaboutit!  Bush will issue blanket pardons for himself and others just before he leaves office——its a nice thing to do for his friends and supporters.

OBL has been dead for years, Zawahiri opens his mouth on occaision to rile up the masses and let them know he’s alive, most likely from a studio in LA.

The news hungry zionist media parrots talking points provided by CIA and other quasi-military agencies to promote fear and justify massive expenditures against imaginary boogeymen in the war on terror, much like the war on drugs, war on crime and my favorite, war on poverty.

Here is your answer Mr. Pfaff. Mr. Clean has appointed torture-tainted Brennan. Senate confirmation not required! Nothing, absolutely nothing other than more hot air from “capitulate”-Obama” is to be expected on this matter.
The most interesting question is: what did Obama owe Brennan?

Mr. Pfaff:

Sorry, but I find this a ridiculous notion. Your idea of a solution to the problem of our elected leaders committing illegal acts all over the globe is to have the little guys “just say no”.

You actually seem to believe it realistic for every 18 year old grunt (Abu Ghraib types) to understand the complex legal wording and judicial interpretations of the Nuremburg Tribunal, Geneva Convention, the U.S. Constitution, and the UCMJ? And then, all by their lonesome, to tell their commanding officers they’re going to stay in their tent playing with their ipods because they know the orders are illegal?

What utter nonsense.

As Truman said’ “The buck stops here.”

Up and until those at the VERY TOP have their feet held to the fire, there is no solution at all.

As Truman said: “The buck stops here.”

Your

I have long thought that William Pfaff was one of the most astute analysts on U.S. foreign policy. I am greatly disappointed to find that he has joined the official Washington consensus that there is nothing to be done about bringing the torturers and war criminals of the Bush administration to trial. And if we do not punish this group of criminals now, then the one proposal that Pfaff makes to prevent such crimes in the future is a circular, self-contradictory failure.

He starts off by saying that “The most effective way to prevent future war crimes is not to threaten elected leaders with punishment that probably will not be imposed.” OK, this sentence appears to suggest that it is unlikely that elected leaders will ever be punished for committing war crimes.

But then he calls for reminding officials that if they commit war crimes, “the serious possibility will exist that (in another administration?) they will be appropriately punished.”

But Pfaff just said in the opening sentence of this graph that it is unlikely that elected officials will ever be punished for committing war crimes.

A law cannot be a deterrent if we decide to put off punishing violators every time violations occur, only to spout off about how we’re going to get tough the next time someone commits war crimes.

The time to start to make the law mean something is now. The evidence is overwhelming that many crimes were committed by this administration. Failure to hold the Bush gang accountable now, with trials and jail time if they are found guilty, will be a huge moral failure by the American people and their elected leaders, opening the gates even wider for the next tyrannical president who comes along.

KDelphi,

You tried to read “The Al Qaeda Reader” but found it unrealistic?

The Ibrahim book is an compilation of items Zawahiri and bin Laden had written for more than a decade. The books displays the teachings, public communiques, stated grievances and goals in their own words translated into English. But this you found to be “unrealistic”?

Just so I understand you. You prefer to rely on John Gray’s anecdotal interpretation of Al Qaeda but, you stopped reading bin Laden and Zawahiri’s own opinions and teachings because you found them to be unrealistic?

“I would at the same time have President Obama announce presidential honors for the military lawyers and CIA or Justice Department officials who defied or protested the illegal policies and actions of the Bush government.”

~~~

Excellent idea Mr. Pfaff! I think he should do this too. I think Erin Watada and others that underwent the same excruciating agony to do the right thing should be acknowledged the same way.

Yes, start with Rumsfeld and end with Cheany. And hold Bush accountable for those two.

TYB—I didnt say it was a conspiracy. I said that you do not know. I really trust everything bin Laden says, I tried to read that book, and, it just didnt seem as realistic to me as others. (like the one below)I dont believe everythg I read. 

“Al Qaeda and What It Means to Be Modern” by John Gray in Books

“While many Americans view the September 11th terrorist attack as the act of an anachronistic and dangerous sect, one that champions medieval and outmoded ideals, John Gray here argues that in fact the ideology of Al Qaeda is both Western and modern, a by-product of globalization’s transnational capital flows and open borders.”

No mstter what you say, you cannot prove that anything Bush has done, has made us “safer”. I cannot prove that making millions of people hate our guts and committing war crimes, makes us less safe. But, I’ll bet that it does, dont you?

I wish you well, but, Ron Paul and George Bush (both) can go straight to hell…

ThnkUbush: Bill Clinton SHOULD be on trial right along with Bush and Cheney. All of the “thousands” you cite in your post should be on trial also. This needs to be done, regardless of how many people it covers. America has lost its credibility. If we truly are wanting to be the world’s policeman, and judge of what is right and wrong, we MUST start at home. One of the first things we the people need from our “government” is the TRUTH. We have been lied to for so long, we no longer really hear what our “politicians” say to us. There is no reason Bush and Cheney should NOT be impeached, and thousands of reasons they should. Evil done in the name of goodness is still evil. That, sir, includes torture and murder. The fact that the past few administrations have done both in OUR name makes it treason also.

By ThnkUBush, January 9 at 4:37 am #

Thank god Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich voted against it.

Re: ThnkUBush, you seem to dismiss quite a lot of people offhandedly for disagreeing with your point of view. 
This blog allows many points of view, but by far, yours is the most atrocious and disagreeable. The reason is this, you will not listen nor learn that your way of thinking is and can be wrong. You give us the exact viewpoint of what neo-fascists and neo-conservatives say.
I would therefore heartily agree with Folktruther that an oversized ego such as yours can lead to the destruction of this “Grand Experiment.”  We, the posters on this blog, know when we are being bamboozled and scammed, and you sir, give rise to the
ideologues from the right, in that you can do no wrong and are always correct.
I would sincerely hope, that one day you see the light and join the rest of the civilized world, in condemning the war crimes, crimes against humanity and the crimes committed against the people of the US in the name of “security and freedom.”
Which we neither gained, but lost through the machinations of the Bush Administration with the complete complicity of Congress and the Courts.

KDelphi,

I do in fact know exactly who has been attacking several nations, including the United States, in the clearest acts of war as commonly defined in contemporary times.

You can certainly say that 9/11 was a criminal act. But don’t be ignorant of the fact that bin Laden and Dr. Zawahiri completely disagree with you.

I would like to suggest picking up a copy of “The Al Qaeda Reader” - by Raymond Ibrahim.

Read and begin to understand the enemies thoughts and stated goals for yourself. I know already you will be shocked. You’ll then begin to wonder why you never knew who has been at war with the United States since 1996.

With all due respect. Conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 are of no interest to me. I would think it a complete waste of my time.

This is where we’ll part ways and I say Good Luck to you in all things.

ThnkUBush—You seem to be under the general impression that you know exactly who was behind 9/11. You do not.

I did not say that everything was Bush’s fault at all, if you had read it! I blame alot of Dems! I said that you cannot prove that Bush has prevented “terror” attacks, at all.

No, I think we need police to investigate 9/11. I think it was a legal matter, a criminal act. It was not an act of war by the PEOPLE of Afghansitan, who are the ones suffering for it.

It was most certainly NOT an “act of war” of the people of Iraq!! And, that, is a WAR CRIME!

Perhaps, from a very warped point-of-view, prison can be a very “secure” environment;  the biggest threat by-far being the system itself.  The real question one must consider is whether life in a prison state is the most wanted condition now, or to future generations not yet born.

KDelphi,

You can “guarantee” more terrorists in the future but “dumb luck” is your best answer to what has prevented another attack on the U.S. since 9/11?

So, to sum it up, all things negative is certainly Bush’s fault but, if it’s positive, it’s purely luck.

You also appear to be arguing that the U.S. shouldn’t defend itself as that would only serve to make our enemies mad. That logic seems to indicate that police departments are unnecessary. Arresting people, upholding the law and saving lives, is nothing but another example of an imperialistic iron fist that will only serve to embolden young criminals.

Thank you, thnk.  We need neofascists like yourself to point out facts that illustrate that Bushite oppression was opproved by Dems as well.  That is why I am against censorship; the morally perverted and dingbats raise issues and point out facts overlooked or suppressed by the mainstream truth.

Not incidentially, Howard and Trithoverlies, would probably endorse your preconceptions.  What a team you would make, Thnk, Howard and Trith, the worst of the worst.  you could serve as an example to the rest of us: genicide, ethnic cleansing and dinbattiness, all in one place.

Also, as KDelphi has pointed out, did you know that you could make a perfectly good, usable hat out of single roll of tin foil?

Nancy—“We” did not “choose god/jehovah”. I agree with most of your post, but, I continually see people try to label this a “judeo-christian” country- It is not.

Big B—Good news! If it gets any hotter in the Midwest—we may soon be able to GROW BANANAS! Its true! A guy in Canada is planting up peach trees for his grandhchildren! (not kidding!)

Thnkubush—Fine, they already tried to impeach Clinton, for an humiliatingly stupid thing—impeach everyone who knew about it. I dont give a gd if they are Dems or not!

Yes, its “amazing” that the guy in charge is able to beat back charges, as the guy in charge!! He must be really smart or something!

So Dems were complicit. They all go on trial, as far as I am concerned. What has kept us from being attacked , could be just dumb luck—you cannot “prove” a negative.

I can guarantee you that we will have a new generation of “terrorists” (ie poor combatants, who cant afford, or , are not allowed a standing military), considering the age of the populations in Iraq, Ira, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and Gaza…among other places we try to Imperialistically rule with an iron fist.

“Should the Torturers Go on Trial?”

My answer is yes.  We must govern by law.  No one should stand above (or below) accountability to our laws.  Starting with Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney.  Proceed to the thousands of law-breakers some suggest (we don’t throw out robbery laws because they’re violated in large number, eh?)

To “Big B” re: treatment of the Constituion: 
  Too late - W already did all those things and worse.  Bush shredded its meaning and spirit which is far worse than any physical damage could do.  I suspect that W and his cronies will get less than a footnote in history for their abominable behavior.  By contrast, Congress spent millions to punish Clinton for lollygagging with a fat chick. 
  I totally agree with “coloradokarl” - the troops were doing what they were told/influenced to do by their (excuse the expression) “superiors”. 
  To the neo-con respondents:
    It doesn’t matter whether the Bushies lied - they so twisted the facts and the situation to their own devices that they may have permanently screwed our nation and its reputation. 
  If it was such a great idea to invade Iraq, why didn’t all those other countries who supposedly had the same “intelligence” decide to jump in there ahead of US?  Answer:  they KNEW it was not worth the cost.

nrobi,

I read your previous post in it’s entirety. Apparently you don’t like, or didn’t understand, my retort.

Good luck to you.

Re: ThnkUBush, I never said that there would be trials of the war criminals, but stated that the ideal would be to hold Nuremburg-style trials of those who in the shrub’s administration, caused such misery and hardship
that they would and should stand trial for their crimes
against humanity.
That being said, I would hope that you would read closer the postings of the different people, who have stated their desire for justice, for those caught up in
the criminality of the Shrub and Darth Vader’s plans for the world.
By sheer dint of their criminality, they deserve the worst possible sentences, that they should live in the countries that were illegally and immorally invaded on the grounds of the “preemptive war doctrine.” 
Along with this abominable piece of thinking, goes the fact that the neo-conservative ideals of robbing from the poor and giving to the rich, so that these criminals could retain power, which after all is the most potent and lethal aphrodisiac known to man.
Lethal in that the people subjected to the governance
of this type of thinker, always pay the price in blood for the illogical thinking that goes along with
being someone who adheres to the neo-conservative ideology.
I am quite surprised that you, ThnkUBush, did not read the whole of my posting, for you sound as if you
understand the ideology of neo-conservatism quite clearly. But one can never assume that everyone does the same thing when reading a posting on a website such as this.
I am certain that I would like to meet you someday for it sounds as if we have a lot in common. We are both thinkers and activists, and thrive on the thrill
of understanding the opposition, and not just putting
these people down for their idiotic ideology.

yes.

Purple Girl,

Your thinking on this matter is a terrific example of too much media and not enough facts coupled with reality.

If the Bush administration lied then so too did France, Germany, Russia, China, Britain, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and President Clinton and almost the entire U.S. Congress from 1993 to date.

Yes, there is the media information you ingest and there is reality. The two do not mix well.

nrobi,

FACT: There will never be “war crimes” trials as these would have to include President Clinton and the 107th-8th and 9th Congress’. Such trials would produce, by law, over a thousand defendants. Not the handful you envision.

Government does not work the way you have come to believe. When one pays attention to the facts things look a great deal different.

War Crimes? Really is that all you can come up with?
How about LYING to the American people by Chery picking intellegence regarding Saddams involvement in 9/11? What about the Wiretaping? What about the Politicisizing of the Justice Dept?What about “So” and “So What” as a response to the demands of the American People…Come on there is an never ending list of UNAMERICAN Acitivity committed by this admin. Nixons crimes looks like kiddie games next to what Cheney Pulled of during this puppet reign. If nothing else Give US Cheney for 40 yrs of Treason. Let’s be honest here, the ideology that ‘If the President does it, it is not illegal’ was epitomized during the last 8 yrs…Such a doctrine flies directly in the Face of Democratic Rule…Thats the Adage of Kings and dictators!!!
Hang Cheney, then kick start him and hang him again!
Benedict you’re off the Hook, DICK will be now taking your place inthe History books as America’s most notorious Traitor!
Heres a solution to avoiding the BS in DC, have every state convict them in absentia for any one of their high crimes,enocouage foreign nations to do the same..give them nowhere to go, nowhere to hide and those who do are considered harboring International Criminals..cut them off of international commerce. And who ever catches them first may do with them WHATEVER they wish.Put a Bounty on their heads and let the fun begin!

The ideal situation would be to hold large scale Nuremburg-style trials of all those complicit in the justification of and use of torture for the sole purpose of “obtaining information.” 
As is now known, the torturers and those tortured were not only Americans, the CIA’s secret rendition program took many prisoners of less value to countries that routinely torture their own citizens. Of these secretly rendered prisoners, hardly any have been found and/or released back to their native countries, they have just disappeared from the face of the earth.
Of course these are war crimes of the highest degree,
and the people who were in charge of these programs to move prisoners to countries such as Syria, Egypt, Turkey and other countries where torture was conducted by CIA operatives, along with the psychologists in the military, among these are the worst breakers of the 4th Geneva Conventions.
But lest we not forget, these procedures and operations, were planned and carried out at the behest of Dick(Darth Vader)Cheney, and with the full knowledge of, and consent of George(the shrub)W. Bush. 
This all happened against the backdrop of crimes in the United States against the Constitution and Bill of Rights. These documents which were in theory if not in practice shredded by the Bush Administration.
We do not know the scope of, nor do we know the extent of the illegalities that were committed against the American people all in the name of “security.” 
Benjamin Franklin wrote, “A people who would willingly give up their freedoms for a little security, deserve neither.”  This is a most worthy statement. For now we the American people, have lost many of our freedoms and given over to the government the right to inspect any and all records that pertain to our lives. A freedom once lost is never regained!
We are at the crossroads of the “Grand Experiment,” until now, American armed forces were not permitted to act in the manner of civil police, unless in extreme conditions.  Now the “Northern Command,” has at its beck and call, in case of “civil unrest,” standing members of the armed forces that will enforce HR 1955, a bill which takes away every right that we now as American freedom and liberty. The sponsor of this abominable bill, Rep. Jane Harmon, (R) Cal. is the person we have to thank for this.
Many things have happened behind the scenes that were not put out as news by the MSM and now we the people, are clueless as to the extent of the loss of our freedoms.
Should you wake up in the middle of the night, with bright lights in your eyes, know that it is probably the military, coming to take you to the camps set up to house the likes of people like us. People who make noise regrading the illegalities and immoralities conducted by the last administration, which in the course of time, will be and even now is considered the worst administration on record.
I have much more to say and will in the following comments. But let us all be aware, that we are now treading on thin ice, for dissent is now illegal according to the same sources that sanctioned the torture and deaths of so many people, including the innocent men, women and children of the Palestinian people.

War crimes from the Bush administration?

Fact: In 1998 the House voted 530+, and in the Senate, 99 - 0, voted to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and replace his regime with a democracy.
Fact: President William J. Clinton signed the Iraq Freedom Act into law by stating that Saddam Hussein was the most demanding and immediate threat to the United States.

“Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the “Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.”

On February 17, 1998, President Clinton, speaking at the Pentagon, warned of the “reckless acts of outlaw nations and an ‘unholy axis of terrorists’, drug traffickers and organized international criminals.’ ‘These predators of the twenty-first century, these enemies of America, will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.”—President William Jefferson Clinton.

Fact: President Bush entered office with a legal obligation to remove Saddam Hussein from power. He was legally obligated to use the power of the office to build a representative government in Iraq.

War crimes from the Bush administration?

Fact: The previous U.S. President used most of the same tools, techniques and policies now being labeled as “war crimes” against the current administration.
Fact: Leaders of the House and Senate were fully informed of the tools, techniques and policies of the past and current administrations.
Fact: The Bush administration has succeeded in beating back nearly all legal challenges—including those to some of his most controversial policies. Among them are a domestic surveillance program to intercept international phone calls, the rounding up of Muslim men for questioning after the Sept. 11 attacks, the holding of suspects in military custody in this country without filing charges, harsh interrogations—some have called it torture—of suspects arrested abroad, and the detention of foreign captives at a military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Because of the administration’s successful defense of such policies, they not only will be a part of Bush’s legacy but will be around for his successors. Even if Barrack Obama rejects or sharply modifies Bush’s positions, the precedents will remain for future chief executives.

Fact: Bush’s anti-terrorism policies have not been blocked by the courts or Congress. When the Supreme Court struck down Bush’s use of special military trials at Guantanamo on grounds that he had no legal basis for creating them, Congress passed the Military Commissions Act to authorize the trials.

Fact: When critics claimed the National Security Agency was violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act by intercepting calls without a warrant, Congress, including President Elect Obama, passed a law to authorize such wiretapping. The same measure also granted legal immunity to telephone companies that had cooperated with the administration.

Fact: Not a single attack on the Homeland has been successful in the last 7 1/2 years.

Which tool, technique or policy is most responsible in protecting the United States?

Thank you President Bush. History will judge you well.

Justice is a matter for a Department of Justice, and not in title only.  It’s my understanding that that department is already well aware torturing has been used as a means of behavior control, for obtaining information, but rather than disallowing the process from being used and investigating into it’s illegal usage, judges have simply objected to any evidence obtained thru that method being used against the defendents in court.  The real problem seems to be that the constitution has no merit, it isn’t worth the paper it was written on.  The wiretapping of american citizens is another example, it being no longer illegal, nor unconstitutional.

I saw this, and, was hopeful:

“In a thoughtful examination of the war crimes issue in the Jan. 15 New York Review, David Cole of the Georgetown University Law Center concludes that for national foreclosure, there has to be a formal accounting and determination of responsibility for the criminal policies of the Bush government, made by an independent and bipartisan blue-ribbon commission, possessing subpoena power, security clearance and access to all requested documents. This commission should be mandated by the president or Congress (or both…”

It is human nature, we CANNOT “move on”. People, generally , (with exceptions, many in DC) have an innate sense of “justice”. In general, they know when they are being f**ked..

“The most effective way to prevent future war crimes is not to threaten elected leaders with punishment that probably will not be imposed. It is to convince civilian and military officials at all levels of government that if they commit or participate in war crimes, as clearly defined in international law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, even under orders of their superiors, the serious possibility will exist that (in another administration?) they will be appropriately punished..”

And , just how in hell are you going to do THAT, when it is clear to everyone that the Dubya cabal walked away from the worst war cimres of this new century???! If there is not, at least, truth and reconciliation, I am afraid that US(and many other countries) sense of JUSTICE will be permanently disprupted, and, few wil ever trust this govt (if they do now!) again!

HOW do educated people think that we can “move on” from this? Did the world “move on” from the Nazis? Pincohchet? Batista? Or, are we , instead, paying the price now??

All future generations of US citizens, will look back on this administration as the ‘beginning of the end”, if we do not regain our sense of decency and trust in the world.

If not, we should get the hell out of the uN, as we never follow any of our own rules,and, without the US “big bad military” to enforece it’s will, the uN has no teeth. I guess that is the way some want it.

How DARE we lecture others on “human rightds” after this??!!

The aristocracy has always been unwilling to punish one of their own.

Because if they do then the people might get the idea, that they have recourse.

I would hope that at least they would be tormented by their conscience, but no so.

Because conscience, requires at least a little, empathy, compassion, intelligence and sensitivity.

Pfaff: “Obama signifies a new start in the United States, and an opportunity for renewal and rendering justice.”

Oh Puleeeese !!!

If the bushie war criminals are permitted to walk, then I have a suggestion for Pres Barry. He should smash the glass case holding the Constitution and Bill of Rights, place the Bill of Rights on the floor, drop his pants, and take a huge dump on it! Then he should wipe his ass with the Constitution, and set it on fire with one of Clintons used cigars.

If they are all not tried for high treason, then our laws are not worth a pint of piss.

And then some other future despot, perhaps even worse than W, will finish the job of turning the USA into a third world banana republic(without the bananas)

This is tough for me personally , I don’t believe in torture. But I don’t think the majority of the “soldiers” the grunts,if you will, who were following orders and trying to build careers should be punished. No I think guys like that Yoo guy or what ever his name is. The guys on top, I wish Rumsfeld wasn’t so old. If we know of some sadists who killed someone ETC.