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Why Do So Few Speak Up for Gaza?

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Posted on Jan 6, 2009
Gaza rubble
AP photo / Khaled Omar

Palestinians inspect the rubble of a building in the Rafah refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip, destroyed in Israel’s military onslaught.

By Robert Scheer

Why are we so indifferent to the death and destruction in Gaza?

The major news outlets meekly accepted Israel’s banning of journalists from entering Gaza as an excuse for downplaying collateral civilian casualties, our president-elect, Barack Obama, has had little to say about an invasion that will much complicate his future Mideast peace efforts, and most commentators easily rationalize Israel’s many-more-eyes-for-an-eye killings.

Why is it that there is such widespread acceptance, beginning with the apologetic arguments of President Bush, that whatever Israel does is always justified as necessary to the survival of the Jewish state?

It is not.

While the Hamas rocket attacks are reprehensible, they are also an ineffectual challenge to Israel’s enormous security apparatus, and the severity of Israel’s response to them is counterproductive. Clearly, the very existence of Israel is not now, nor has it ever been, seriously challenged by anything the Palestinians did. Not back in 1948, when Israel was established as a state with insignificant Palestinian military resistance, nor at the time of the 1967 Six-Day War when Egypt, Syria and Jordan fought Israel.

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The Palestinians were in no position to confront the Israeli army, because those whose lands were not already occupied by Israel were living under oppressive Egyptian control in Gaza and tough Jordanian rule in the West Bank. After the speedy Israeli victory, which demolished the myth of the new state’s vulnerability, the Palestinians became imprisoned as a people by Israel for crimes they had not committed.

Even if we accept the harshest portrayal of the tactics and motives of the Palestinian movements against Israel after the Six-Day War, at what point did that terrorism represent a serious challenge to the survival of the Jewish people or the state that claims to speak in their name? Yet that survival is invoked to justify the vastly excessive use of force by the Israeli war machine, with frequent allusions to the Holocaust previously visited upon the Jewish people, a holocaust that had nothing to do with Palestinians or Muslims, and everything to do with Central Europeans claiming to be Christians.

The high moral claim of the Israeli occupation rests not on the objective reality of a Palestinian threat to Israel’s survival, but rather on the non sequitur cry that “never again” should harm come to Jews as it did in Central Europe seven decades ago.

The basic argument is that Palestinian terrorists represented by Hamas are given to an irrational hatred of Jews so profound that it invalidates their movement, even when they win elections. That was not the view of the Israeli security service when it earlier supported Hamas as the alternative to the then dreaded PLO. Also, history is replete with examples of terrorists becoming statesmen, even within the early ranks of Jews fighting to establish the state of Israel.

One of those was Menachem Begin, who went on to be an elected leader of the new state. But before Begin attained that respectability, back in 1948 when he visited the United States, a group of prominent Jewish intellectuals including Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook and Hannah Arendt wrote a letter to The New York Times warning that Begin was a former leader of the “Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.” The letter urged Jews to shun Begin, arguing, “It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.”

Begin’s new party was then participating in the Israeli election, and Einstein and his colleagues, many of whom like the physicist had been victims of German fascism, stated, “Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character.”

Those actions were then detailed in the letter. They included the systematic terrorizing of innocent Palestinian men, women and children in an effort to force them to flee the territory that Begin’s party claimed for the new state of Israel.

Clearly Begin and his political heirs, who include Benjamin Netanyahu, the most likely victor in the next Israeli election, evolved in their behavior. But I bring it up now to highlight the one-sided reporting of the current phase of this interminable conflict and to wonder: Where are the voices that reflect the uncompromising morality of Einstein’s generation of Jewish intellectuals willing to acknowledge fault and humanity on both sides of the political equation?

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, February 5, 2009 at 4:46 am Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 4 at 6:41 pm #

Von Braun was Lutheran.  He was an SS officer, not too many jews there.

http://www.scientistsandfriends.com/

Jews, Jews everywhere, do you check under your bed at night?

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 4, 2009 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, February 4 at 3:43 pm #

“OK, I really AM out of here this time.At some point, it’s just gonna be you two rabid racists (Ozark Michael and YOU) talking to each other.”
~~~~~~~~~~~

Cyrena…your posts/comments echoed loudly ... TRUTH, fairness, compassion, humanity and sensitivity. Your knowledge depth & your prolific quest for vetting the TRUTH is unwavering.

I wouldn’t worry about “Sheenon”. As I posted earlier, she is a racist bigot, an Islamophobe…etc… I think that she & ozark are “sayanim”. They are zionist propagandists/agents.

Oh well cyrena…I guess that I’ll see ya on the other threads.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 4, 2009 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

Scanned letter that Albert Einstein sent to the Stern terror gang when it solicitited him to raise funds in the United stated


Posted on January 21, 2008

In 1948, prior to the creation of the State of Israel, Albert Einstein was solicited by the Stern Gang to raise money and support for its terrorism against the British and the Palestinians.

In the United States, the Stern Gang operated under the title of ?American Friends of the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel.? Here is Einstein?s response written the day after the massacre at Deir Yassin, the same day it was first reported in The New York Times. The original letter is slated to become part of the Deir Yassin Remembered Archives.

A recent newspaper article on this document, purchased at Sotheby?s in 2007, is shown below and can best be viewed by magnifying it to 200 percent. If you would like a high-resolution copy of this document, please contact Daniel McGowan at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).


Note that this letter was written April 10th, 1948, ONLY ONE DAY after Stern terror gang with the assistance of the Haganah executed the massacre against the civilian population Deir Yassin.

=======

Click on links for details & Einstein’s letter:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/Story8497.html


http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/Einistein-attachment.jpg

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry:  Want to look at the following website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:German-American_scientists
where you will find Albert Einstein, a Jew.

Inasmuch as the following rocket scientists were colleagues of Wernher von Braun, and Herr von Braun was Jewish, after you say where the rest of the 1600 are, but these appear at the site you so graciously provided please name the Germans who are not Jewish as well as those on the site I just provided you above (who may not all be ‘rocket’ scientists but scientists nevertheless:
Rudolph ‘Rolf’ Ammann
Rudi Beichel
Werner Dahm
Konrad Dannenberg
Kurt Debus
Ernst R. G. Eckert
Krafft Arnold Ehricke
Ernst Geissler
Dieter Grau
Walter Häussermann
Karl Heimburg
Otto Hirschler
Helmut Hoelzer
Hans Hueter
Wilhelm Jungert
Walter Haussermann
Heinz-Hermann Koelle
Oswald Lange
Wermer Liers
Hermann H. Kurzweg
Hans Maus
Fritz Mueller
Willy Mrazek
Erich W. Neubert
Theodor A. Poppel
Eberhard Rees
Gerhard Reisig
Georg Rickhey
Werner Rosinski
Arthur Rudolph
Harry Ruppe
August Schulze
Walter Schwidetzky
Ernst Stuhlinger
Bernhard Tessmann
Adolf Thiel
Wernher von Braun
Albert Zeiler
Walter Dornberger
Hermann Oberth
Jesco von Puttkamer
Guenter Wendt

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, February 4, 2009 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 4 at 4:32 pm #

“Oh PatrickHenry, they were German Jews!  Like Einstein, remember him?”

He didn’t make the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_rocket_scientists_in_the_United_States

Click down the list of 1600.

Not alot of jewish sounding names here, these guys are engineers, not academics.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 4, 2009 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Does Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist? Thats the big question. Instead of arguing our opinions, our hopes, or our fears, why not go to the source?

With the internet, its not that hard to do.

And my readers, let this be the deciding factor. This thread might actually amount to something if the Hamas supporters could prove that Hamas wants a permanent peace settlement with Israel. I cannot find that Hamas wants peace with Israel. They want cease fires. They want temporary peace.

Maybe I am wrong. This is your chance to prove me wrong.

Come now, let us investigate the matter.

If Hamas will recognize Israel and wants a permanent peace, then I shall concede the argument to you. If Hamas does not want to recognize Israel and does not want a permanent peace with Israel, then you must concede the argument.

Those of you who complain about bottom feeders, fascists, slime, etc etc. This is your chance to be rid of me.

I require that you post your info and then you will have to answer my questions.

I do not want ‘messages’. Don’t do a hit and run. You must stay and try to finish the argument. It is a masculine thing to do, to stand and defend your ideas. But women are invited also. (That way, Fadel can join in too. See PatrickHenry, i am not sexist.)

Sound good? Will anyone accept the challenge?

Anyone?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

You really can stop with the scatological language cyrena, it isn’t necessary.  It is irritating but that is all it is.  But if you insist on showing that uncouthness, all right.  I will bear it.  It doesn’t make you look any tougher as that is what it looks like is your concern.  I’m sure you wouldn’t use that kind of tough talk to a graduate committee.  You shouldn’t be speaking for your colleagues, cyrena.  They are anti-semites and pro-Hamas terrorist sympathizers and you don’t have to make yourself look tough on their account.  You might want to give up saying “we” or “us” as if you are speaking for a group.  I realize there seems to be magic in numbers or a way to diffuse one’s own culpability.  Otherwise we would have to include you among the Shenonymous bashers.  Can’t you come up with something better than “see the shrink” thing?  Your choice of course.

Inasmuch as the admission by Hamas was made about how they got the Palestinians to hide them as they launched rockets and mortars to Israel and is available on YouTube, which everyone seems to think is the 21st century bonafide resource, seems like you protest too much over their admission.

I will not be responding to any further of your infantile accusations as you sound too much like the shriekers already posting on this site. 

The issue is free speech.  And the kind of free speech guaranteed by the Bill of Rights of the United States of America.  Please provide anything that even remotely approaches that as could be found in the Arab nations.  You cannot. 

“At the UN last November, there was a UN resolution calling for the Palestinians to be granted self determination.  The Vote went 175 for an 5 against.”  Tell me, please, did the Palestinians receive the right to self-determination?  With a vote of 175 to 5?

Oh PatrickHenry, they were German Jews!  Like Einstein, remember him?  Shall we name all of them?  Well if you and your comrades would just stop and desist from calling me names or casting aspersions on my character then and only then could your attempt at vandalizing Shenonymous be considered as non-existent.  I don’t mind being your scapegoat though.  See I am an iron scapegoat, and can stand anything you say.  Just remember your freedom of speech to say whatever your want.

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By cyrena, February 4, 2009 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

By Shingo, February 4 at 1:41 pm

“Folktruther,

You are exactly right.  Like I said, evenHitler would have preferred to peacefully conquer Europe if he had the option.

Like you said, the Zionists want peace with Israeli domination.  The Camp David offer stipulated that even with a 2 state solution in place, Israel woudl control all security for both states and all the water resources.

It’s is also true that most of the world wants peace with justice for the Palesitinians.  At the UN last November, there was a UN resolutin calling for the Palestinains to be granted self detrmination.  The Vote went 175 for an 5 against.

No prizes for guessing who voted against it.

>> The ambiguity between ‘peace with domination’ or ‘peace with justice’ makes clear discourse impossible.

You hit the nail on the head.  Israel is offering 80% of 22% of what originally belonged to the Palestinians. Even of that 80% of 22%, none of it will be contiguous.  It will just be pockets of Palestinians villages, with no means to move between them.”

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090126_with_gaza_journalists_fail_again/

Even KDELPHI came up with some stats for you Shenon..
By KDelphi, February 4 at 2:16 pm #

On average, the U.S gave more than $6.8 million to Israel each day and gave $0.3 million to the Palestine each day during Fiscal Year 2007.

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America’s entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 million per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
“The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html
http://www.truthdig.com/report

/item/20090126_with_gaza_journalists_fail_again/

OK, I really AM out of here this time.At some point, it’s just gonna be you two rabid racists (Ozark Michael and YOU) talking to each other.

Toodles

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, February 4, 2009 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

By OzarkMichael, February 4 at 12:29 pm #

I love the way the pro-Israel posters like to label other ethnic and religious groups as “terrorist” while Israel has the most real world experience dispensing it.

The Taliban is a muslim version of the Republicans.  Afghanistan needs unification and if the population wants them who are the Americans to deny them.  Lets leave.

BTW, if Fadel is a woman or not, what’s it to ya?  Does the message Fadel brings diminish because of his or her sex.  You appear to have more difficult issues than Israel vs Palestine.

By Shenonymous, February 4 at 4:15 am #

Just because your paranoid doesn’t mean we all out to getcha.  Are you sure your not jewish?  You exhibit the traits of paranoia and jumping to delusions by basing your arguements on what you think will happen, not what has happened.

BTW the best rocket scientists came from Germany, although the Israelis have excelled in producing weapons and munitions to kill others. 

Wasted talent when the world has so many other needs.

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By cyrena, February 4, 2009 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

1 of 3
•  “No, the issue of free-speech is what is at the crux of this article.  Why so few speak up is because Israel has the right to exist, but the anti-Zionist anti-Semites want to see that country destroyed and removed from the Middle East.”

Nope. Free speech isn’t at the crux of this article anymore than Islam is. You ask why SO FEW speak up for Gaza, (or at least that’s what the title and the text of the article address) and we ALREADY KNOW the reason(S) Shenonymous, because this isn’t about ISRAEL’S ‘right to exist’. Israel ALREADY EXISTS, and it has since 1948, and nobody (including your so-called ‘terrorists’ Hamas) is DENYING Israel’s right to exist! Since that information has been posted here numerous times, (specifically by Brewerstroupe, Robert, and me) along with the fact that Hamas has repeatedly (and in writing) committed to recognizing Israel’s right to exist, as well as a 10 year truce to sort things out, tells me that you are willfully ignoring those truths in favor of your learned propaganda. I admit that I don’t know WHY you’ve adopted this willful ignorance, and while it does concern me, I’m not in a position, (meaning I don’t have the professional resources/knowledge) to figure it out, though I’ve certainly CARED enough, (personally) to try.

So, more bullshit here from your canned and learned propaganda. Of course we know you are not a Jew, which makes your regurgitation of the shit that much more difficult to understand. For the last time, the so-called anti-Zionists, (of which I am one) and the so-called anti-Semites, (of which I am NOT) do NOT want to see that country destroyed and removed from the Middle East, and THAT is the primary example of the TOXIC SHIT that you SPEW here, along with the other rabid Zionists. We’ve been over that before as well. Not all Zionists are Jews, just as not all Jews are Zionists. Zionism is a political posture that represents and promotes an Apartheid structure based on racism. The NON-Jews of South Africa felt the same way as the Zionists do. It’s racism, pure and simple, and Jews aren’t the only ones to engage in such mentalities, as we see from your posts as a non-Jew. You’ve simply proven that it isn’t just Jews who maintain a rabid racism toward the Arab population.

What has to be removed and destroyed is the Apartheid set up, and we -ALL- KNOW that Zionism = Apartheid. To suggest that those who support the self-determination of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are “anti-Semite” is quite IGNORANT, since they’re ALL SEMITES!!

This willful ignorance is further evidenced by the fact that we have documented (on various forms of media new and old) evidence for the entire world to witness, that it is in fact the JEWS OF ISRAEL’S ZIONIST STATE, that WANT TO DESTROY THEIR ARAB NEIGHBORS. They do not want them there Shenon. So, you INTENTIONALLY LIE and MALICIOUSLY MISREPRESENT the intentions of the parties in the conflict. That is quite frankly, the EPITOME of intellectual disingenuousness, and I remain shocked at this ‘fall from grace’ (intellectual neutrality) that you’ve so passionately embraced. You don’t just pass on the bullshit rhetoric, but you actually accuse ‘the other’ of the behavior and intent that YOUR ‘side’, has been actively engaged in, for the past 60 years. 

time for a FULL medical checkup. That means an internal medicine doc or team of them, to check the standard body systems. Make sure you don’t have some form of diabetes that is not treated, or not treated properly by the correct combination of meds. If those things are left untreated, they can create physiological problems in mood and behaviors as well.

Also check-in with a neurologist. Pre-dementia can be noted and addressed.

A psychiatrist can make an appropriate assessment and address treatments.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and that includes yours.

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By cyrena, February 4, 2009 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

2 of 3
Meantime, all of this is BULLSHIT, and as long as you post it, I’ll keep calling it what it is.
•  “The second issue is the fact that the Palestinians were slaughtered because they were used as human shields.”

STOP with the LIES. The 1,300 Palestinians who were slaughtered in the last offensive by Israel were NOT slaughtered in the process of being used as human shields, and this is how you wind up backed into the corner of the cage you’ve put yourself in, to defend the indefensible. Were the UN aid workers who were killed and/or injured ALSO being used as human shields? Uh huh. Same with the babies burned by the white phosphorus eh? How about the EMACIATED and MALNOURISHED men, women and children found in the rubble. The ones whose cause of deaths could not be determined, because of their starved conditions. (starved from the 18-month blockade by Israel of all life providing supplies like food and water). Maybe it was the starvation or maybe it was the bombs and the white phosphorus. Were THEY being used as ‘human shields’ as well? How about the family that stood on the roof of the UN building with WHITE FLAGS, as Israel bombed them from the air? They were ‘human shields’ as well, eh?  You are SO full of shit.

•  “The third reason Israel is important to the world is that the Muslim empire is amazingly huge due to their imperialism and Israel provides the only deterrent to a complete conquest of that region.  Israel is a military strategic country for the Western world.  Like it or not, that is a fact.  If the Islalmists were not such a threat to the Western world, the existence of Israel would not be required”

This is the sickest shit you’ve come up with to date. The NON-EXISTENT Islamists have NEVER been a THREAT to ANYBODY Shenonymous, expect in the paranoid schizophrenic minds of the suckers who have fallen for the propaganda. Israel is NOT a ‘required’ state except to the ZIONISTS who created it for THEMSELVES, as in JEWS ONLY.

In the CREATION of this State in 1948, the Zionists set it up to be their own little heaven on earth, NOT to be a strategic country for the Western world. It has certainly BECOME a ‘strategic’ tool for the Western IMPERIALISTS, because of its proximity to ALL OF THOSE NATURAL RESOURCES, which is why Israel continues to get $3 BILLION of OUR taxpayer dollars every year. (for their population of 5 million…not bad eh? Well, it wouldn’t be bad if the 5 million Israelis were actually seeing that money, but of course it’s not used for THEM, but rather to maintain the occupation of Palestine.)

http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm

The previous post should have been 3 of 3. This is 2 of 3

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By cyrena, February 4, 2009 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

2 of 3

•  “…I am pointing out that first of all, the excessive bombing would have been the other way around had Hamas had the better weapons…

More bullshit, and you’ve pointed it out before, except that you’re pointing to existential non-entity, which doesn’t even have as much practical use as bullshit. (we can at least use bullshit for fertilizer to grow food.)But as my dad says, ‘if ~IF~ was a STIFF, it would be dead and buried, and that’s where your propaganda belongs…dead and buried. It’s a WMD.

You don’t KNOW that such ‘excessive’ bombing would have been the other way around, because there is absolutely NO history to suggest that. It’s just your own conjuring up of an imagination which floats in the cesspool of Islamic boogeymen created in your own mind. There is NO “Islamic or Arab EMPIRE” and no Muslims are out to ‘conquer’ the region. They just want to LIVE there, where they have lived for tens of thousands of years.

Meantime, on this:

•  “..My opinion counts as much as anybody’s because I have the right to say it.  It doesn’t count with Hamas sympathizers, but it counts with others who are not!..”

You do of course have a ‘right to voice your opinion’ and it still doesn’t matter to anybody other than you. It doesn’t matter to ‘Hamas sympathizers’ when such entities as ‘Hamas sympathizers’ only exist in your own mind. I’m not a ‘Hamas sympathizer’ and I haven’t heard from any other person on this thread who claims to be a “Hamas sympathizer”. We’re talking about the Gazans here, and they DEMOCRATICALLY elected this organization to represent them in their quest for self-rule. It’s that simple. So yep, I’m a ‘sympathizer’ of every single person living under the boot heel of Israeli Military Occupation, and have needed to live their lives under fire for over 40 years.

So, your ‘opinion’ which is based on some seriously defective propaganda, matters to YOU. My mother’s opinion matters to HER as well, and so I respect it in those terms, even if she doesn’t know what day of the week it is, or can’t find her way around the corner and back. She’s in her own little world, and so are you. I think hers is probably better. At least she’s not given to looking for Arab terrorists under her bed.

Get yourself a COMPLETE physical checkout/work up Shenonymous. You owe it to yourself and those who love you.

And I’m out of here. (or at least this particular thread). Like I said, the REAL world is still turning on it’s axis, and some of us are willing to embrace that REALITY, because it’s the only thing that’s gonna save us in the end.

You can’t keep rubbing lotion on your elbow expecting it to treat your mind, nor should you assume that the rest of us will be stupid enough to try the same.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 4, 2009 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

From the latest Message: The Taliban is not a terrorist organization, but a movement attempting to unify Afghanistan under Muslim law.

As if there is a difference.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, February 4, 2009 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

Fadel, the feminine side:

Everyone who has followed this thread from the beginning is familiar with Fadel. Judge for yourself if the following is true.

First: he is the one whose primary form of argument is to call bad names to those who disagree with him, and to use butter-up and honey-sweet talk to entice those who he likes. Men dont do that. Isnt Fadel just like a woman?
 
Fadel is the one who tosses out a death wish, then promptly retracts it. men do not do that.

He is the one who hurls insults, and makes an quick exit before a response can be made. Just like a woman.

He is the one who leaves in a huff and informs everyone that his part in the conversation is over. But later Fadel returns. Just like a little girl who realizes that the party went on without her.

He is the one who expresses inordinate attention to Shenonymous and her femininity, her lifestyle and other details. He does this during an argument about an important issue. Men do not have such concerns during an argument about important issues. But women do. 

Fadel has a girlish fondness for gossip. Here is a recent quote from Fadel:

I see it fit to post here the latest piece of gossip circulating the blog sphere

Just like a woman! Here is another Fadel quote:

For the thousand time

We all remember how our moms said that to us. Not our dads.

Now, for the final test. How will Fadel respond now? Will he stomp his feet and make another exit? Will he toss his curls and try to get his friends to side with him? Will he scream insults? death threats? Will he criticize the shoes Shenonymous is wearing?

No one knows. 

And that, my readers, is the ultimate essence of the feminine. It is the fickleness, or if you prefer a more positive word, the Unpredictability.

No one here can predict what Fadel is going to do next but lets all give him some room in case he throws another fit or suddenly has to run away.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, February 4, 2009 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

February 4, 2009

Endless Propaganda

The War on Terror is a Hoax

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

“According to US government propaganda, terrorist cells are spread throughout America, making it necessary for the government to spy on all Americans and violate most other constitutional protections.  Among President Bush’s last words as he left office was the warning that America would soon be struck again by Muslim terrorists. 

If America were infected with terrorists, we would not need the government to tell us.  We would know it from events.  As there are no events, the US government substitutes warnings in order to keep alive the fear that causes the public to accept pointless wars, the infringement of civil liberty, national ID cards, and inconveniences and harassments when they fly.

The most obvious indication that there are no terrorist cells is that not a single neocon has been assassinated.

I do not approve of assassinations, and am ashamed of my country’s government for engaging in political assassination.  The US and Israel have set a very bad example for al Qaeda to follow.

The US deals with al Qaeda and Taliban by assassinating their leaders, and Israel deals with Hamas by assassinating its leaders.  It is reasonable to assume that al Qaeda would deal with the instigators and leaders of America’s wars in the Middle East in the same way.

Today every al Qaeda member is aware of the complicity of neoconservatives in the death and devastation inflicted on Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Gaza.  Moreover, neocons are highly visible and are soft targets compared to Hamas and Hezbollah leaders.  Neocons have been identified in the media for years, and as everyone knows, multiple listings of their names are available online.

Neocons do not have Secret Service protection.  Dreadful to contemplate, but it would be child’s play for al Qaeda to assassinate any and every neocon.  Yet, neocons move around freely, a good indication that the US does not have a terrorist problem.

If, as neocons constantly allege, terrorists can smuggle nuclear weapons or dirty bombs into the US with which to wreak havoc upon our cities, terrorists can acquire weapons with which to assassinate any neocon or former government official.

Yet, the neocons, who are the Americans most hated by Muslims, remain unscathed.

The “war on terror” is a hoax that fronts for American control of oil pipelines, the profits of the military-security complex, the assault on civil liberty by fomenters of a police state, and Israel’s territorial expansion. 

There were no al Qaeda in Iraq until the Americans brought them there by invading and overthrowing Saddam Hussein, who kept al Qaeda out of Iraq.  The Taliban is not a terrorist organization, but a movement attempting to unify Afghanistan under Muslim law.  The only Americans threatened by the Taliban are the Americans Bush sent to Afghanistan to kill Taliban and to impose a puppet state on the Afghan people.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine, or what little remains of Palestine after Israel’s illegal annexations.  Hamas is a terrorist organization in the same sense that the Israeli government and the US government are terrorist organizations.  In an effort to bring Hamas under Israeli hegemony, Israel employs terror bombing and assassinations against Palestinians.  Hamas replies to the Israeli terror with homemade and ineffectual rockets.

Hezbollah represents the Shi’ites of southern Lebanon, another area in the Middle East that Israel seeks for its territorial expansion.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02042009.html

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By Shenonymous, February 4, 2009 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

Oh please cyrenie, shall I copy/paste all the “toxic” rhetoric the gangbangers have thrown at me?  Even death wishes.  Talk about poison!  Please list all the “toxic” rhetoric I’ve said.  I do not feel threatened because I know my free-speech government will protect me, and you by the way, and the rest of America.  No, the issue of free-speech is what is at the crux of this article.  Why so few speak up is because Israel has the right to exist, but the anti-Zionist anti-Semites want to see that country destroyed and removed from the Middle East.  So few speak up because they know they will get trounced by the pro-Islamists, pro-Hamas terrorists who have infiltrated this forum as well as others. 

Now, everybody knows I am not a Jew, nor am I a condoner of the “excessive” bombing of the Palestinians.  Israel has certainly been condemned for their expertise and “excessive” reaction to being shelled.  I am pointing out that first of all, the excessive bombing would have been the other way around had Hamas had the better weapons.  The Jews would have been destroyed and all of you would have been very happy. Dancing in the street!  Well I disagree with all of you and think Israel has a right to be that country.  That particular country.  The second issue is the fact that the Palestinians were slaughtered because they were used as human shields.  The Hamas boasted about it and the boast is available at the wonderful resource called YouTube.  The third reason Israel is important to the world is that the Muslim empire is amazingly huge due to their imperialism and Israel provides the only deterrent to a complete conquest of that region.  Israel is a military strategic country for the Western world.  Like it or not, that is a fact.  If the Islalmists were not such a threat to the Western world, the existence of Israel would not be required.  Ask the Western world countries about the Islamic violence that occurred in their countries that includes assassination of people exercising their free-speech!  You all have to get a grip.

Yes, Hamas was elected.  But you know how elections go regardless of “internationally monitored democratic elections”.  I am not going to argue the validity of Hamas’ terrorist regime.  The Palestinians have to bear the brunt of their aggressions.  Within the lifetime safety of free speech which they have never had, you cannot be sure the “democratic” election would have had the apparent result.

If a two-state solution will create a peace, a permanent peace, then Amen.  So be it. Since all things are possible, then that is also possible.  A five-state solution would be better since five Arab countries would be responsible.  But that is much too much to hope for.

My opinion counts as much as anybody’s because I have the right to say it.  It doesn’t count with Hamas sympathizers, but it counts with others who are not!

Yes ParickHenry, and they would be making better homemade rockets, just remember where most of the rocket scientists come from.  How many Hamas or Palestinians can claim even one rocket scientist?  They don’t have time to join the 21st century since they are busy trying to destroy Israel.  Yes, do look at the history of Israel and the number of times it has been assaulted. 

Havana nice day, all.  I certainly will.

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By PatrickHenry, February 4, 2009 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 3 at 6:29 pm #

If the U.S. would only show the restraint on providing advanced weapondry to the Israelis that the Palestinians benefactors do, Israel would be making their own homemade rockets.

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 12:16 am Link to this comment

Patrick Henry, Cyrena—Zionists are irrational because that is the only way they can justify Israel’s ethnic cleansing.  It is obviously immoral and, along with Israeli aprartheid, is condemned by most of the people of the world.

In addition, the Israelis are losing historically, as Fadel’s post points out.  Countires are breaking off relations, boycotts and divestments are increasing, and the world’s public intellectuals are incrreasingly informing the rest of the population.

In addition they are losing militarily, although they are certainly killing a lot of people. They aren’t accomplishing their military aims, and must avoid killing their own soldiers to avoid accelearating decreasing morale.  Sooner or later the puppet regimes that the US finances will by overthrown, which may decide the matter.

As soon as the American people repudiate Zionist militarism of US policy, and Madoff neoliberalism, Israel will be left hanging in midair.  They know their present policy is historically untenable but aren’t confronted with enough pressure from Zionists to change it.  This fear of the future by Zionists feeds in to their hysterical irrationality.

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 10:44 pm Link to this comment

by Shenonymous, February 3 at 4:38 am #
It is amazing how you keep defending the Islamists, cyrena.  Denial of the toxic talk from the leader of Iran is ludicrous.  You make him out to be some kind of a cartoon.  No one needs even to draw it like the Danes did.  By the way, that reminds me again of free speech.  Yes Khamenei has the absolute right to say anything he wants.  But if it implies a threat then those who feel threatened have the same right to care!

Oh please Shenony…this is just more of the same histrionics. Get a grip. I haven’t DENIED anything from Iran’s supreme leader. YOU’RE the one with all of the toxic rhetoric. I’m not DENYING anything he said. I’m saying that YOU don’t KNOW what he said, which makes your opinion on it invalid from my academic viewpoint, and totally irrelevant to the conversation, which I’ve said a few dozen times here.) This is all OLD propaganda, sprung on us since the collapse of the Soviet Union, when the war mongers needed to come up with a new ‘enemy’. Islam is the ‘new’ Communism, or so the puppet masters would have you believe.  I’ve told you a hundred times that I don’t accept any Western use by any white people, of the term “Islamists”. There’s no such term. I already told you this. Practitioners of the Islamic religion are called Muslims. So I’m not ‘defending’ Islamists that I don’t believe exist, other than in your learned propaganda. And, I’m not defending the ones in your imagination either.
I don’t have anything against Muslims or Islam Shenony, just like I don’t have anything against any other religion. I just don’t happen to practice any of them myself. Now I would have issues I’m sure, had I been persecuted by some Wahhabist somewhere. But, I haven’t been. All the Muslims I’ve met have been perfectly ordinary people like me, and a few extraordinary ones as well.  Catholic priests and nuns have been known to terrorize me from time to time, and the born again Christians are another terrorist organization besides. But the plain and simple truth is that Islam has been around for way longer than I have, and no Muslim has ever harmed me or my family, or my fellow citizens, so what’s to hate about them? They aren’t bothering me, so why should I care what any of them are saying, and why would I want to bother and/or demonize them? The Iranians are voicing support for the Palestinians, and that’s what the conversation is supposedly about.

Now if YOU ‘feel threatened’ by anything that the Supreme Leader of IRAN says, something is seriously awry, and I think a visit to the physicians might be in order. I don’t know WHY you need a ‘reminder’ to address the completely unrelated issues of ‘freedom of speech’ ‘cause this conversation isn’t about that either, and nobody but you is talking about it here. It doesn’t have anything to do with anything, unless we’re talking about those who SHOULD be speaking for Gazans, and aren’t, most likely because they live under the fear of death from the Israelis. (The Israelis are the best in the world at targeted assassinations, and they kill their OWN as well, if they even look like they might support a peace agreement with the Palestinians. Remember Rabin? He was too agreeable. His countrymen knocked him off.)

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 10:42 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

So, here’s the deal, I’m only ‘defensive’ of those who live under oppression and have every much right to self-determination as a country and as individuals as we do. I WON’T get into some philosophical or other bullshit argument with you on the relative rights that humans enjoy or don’t, because I’m talking about a basic set of HUMAN RIGHTS that have long been codified as such, and they include the right to self-determination. Those are the same codified laws that make things like the mass killings of civilians WAR CRIMES or CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, illegal in the eyes of the world.
If YOU ‘feel threatened’ by the remarks of one man on the other side of the world, then it’s a personal problem that doesn’t have any bearing on the rights of the Palestinians to live without the military occupation of a hostile group of people who have made it clear they don’t want them there. If YOU are having to check under your bed for Hamas or any other kind of terrorists, then maybe you should move to where you’re sure there are no Muslims.  (I honestly don’t know where that would be, but it’s a big world).

I dunno what to say. I don’t have any Muslims bothering me, and I’ve never accepted Hamas or Hezbollah as the ‘terrorist’ organizations that you want to believe they are. That too, is more Western defined propaganda and rhetoric to go along with the whole Islamophobia package, which has certainly been used effectively on you. (But don’t feel too bad, since many have been equally brainwashed…most are beginning to come out of the denial though, just based on a limited amount of mental processing of the facts and the evidence. ) You just keep turning your head or covering your eyes, and looking for absolutely ANY reason to call things ANYthing but what they are. We look for the core Shenonymous, and then bring it out from there. It’s the way we do things in the thought business. You should know that. But instead, you drag this red herring of Islamic fringe extremism around like it’s the sole cause of everything wrong in the world. That is very helpful in averting one’s eyes from the real cause of the conflict, and from the disgrace of a world looking on while any country engages in the despicable practice of Apartheid and Genocide.

Again, YOUR opinion about them doesn’t count. Hamas was legitimately elected in an internationally monitored democratic election, and that’s all that matters. In this case, you just don’t, and neither does your freedom of speech, because Muslims (Hamas or Iran’s Supreme Leader) aren’t threatening you or your freedom of speech. (at least as far as we know.)

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 3, 2009 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

The following is a sober reflection on Israel’s long-term dilemmas. It might help awaken the fanatic Zionists from their arrogance drunkenness!
===========================================
No Happy Ending

by Fred Reed

“The practical question regarding Israel’s recent invasion of Gaza is not “Who is right?” but “Can Israel last?”
As I write, Israel is using a military designed to fight hostile countries to fight a hostile population. In the modern world, this has seldom worked. To defeat a country you destroy its military and capture its territory. But Gaza has little military to destroy, no tanks or aircraft, and Israel already owns its territory. The IDF can invade but, afterward, the population will still be there, and still be hostile. Stabbing jello doesn’t buy you much.
Israel remains a small state in a region that intensely doesn’t want it. The rights and wrongs change nothing. Again and again, Israel lashes out, lashes out, against enemies that can be defeated but never decisively. And so the bombs fall on Gaza, on Syria, on Beirut, perhaps on Iran. Each war guarantees the next: 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 2006, 2009, world without end.
Israel today is not the country once dreamed, in which Heidelberg professors escaped from Europe would work the soil with their hands on kibbutzim and play chess and the violin at night. It looks more like what the professors fled. Brutal conflicts breed brutal people. Atrocities engender counter-atrocities, extremists come to the fore, and military solutions seem the only solutions.
Where is this going? How long can it continue? Another fifty years? A hundred? Say I, either the country finds peace with its neighbors or it goes the way of the Crusader Kingdom. We can stipulate that the Israelis are the world’s best people, or the worst. It doesn’t matter. You can die in the right as easily as in the wrong.
The Israelis appear to be trapping themselves in their own policies. They continue their annexation of the West Bank. The settlements are now so numerous and so populous that dismantling them is probably politically impossible for any Israeli government, which rules out a two-state solution. To control a large hostile population, you need harsh methods, which keep the population hostile. Arabs outbreed the Israelis, so that a proportionately declining number of Israelis rule a slowly rising tide of Arabs. Think: South Africa. How is this going to work? For how long?”
=============================
The rest of this article can be read at the following link!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed154.html

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

Well why doesn’t Hamas have better weapons?  They are surrounded by their own people.  Arabs.  They are a terrorist organization and ought to be able to be supported by the other terrorist organizations. 

Israel does not live by the United States Constitution.  Do you know what their Constitution says?  Do they even have a Constitution?  Do the Palestinians have a Constitution?  Does Hamas live by any human rights documents?

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By PatrickHenry, February 3, 2009 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

I was looking over the U.S. bill of rights and was saddened to notice that the Israelis have deprived or violated most every amendment in respect to the Palestinian people.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentii

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By PatrickHenry, February 3, 2009 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

Why is it that the vast majority of the posters here who support Israel are prone to leaps of speculation and paranoia? 

Shenonamous writes:  “if Hamas had equivalent weapons as Israel, they would have destroyed Israel long ago.  We are grateful to the powers that be that they didn’t and they don’t”.

Big if.  I suppose you consult your crystal ball daily for your self truths.

Israel wouldn’t be so provocative if it was fighting a better armed foe, like your average American.

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

My point precisely PatrickHenry is if Hamas had equivalent weapons as Israel, they would have destroyed Israel long ago.  We are grateful to the powers that be that they didn’t and they don’t.

I shall do your work for your PatrickHenry as like your colleagues in bashing, you fail to provide any background for your puny comments. Unlike any other country in the world, the United States has a few guiding documents that combine to guard the freedom of speech.  If you wish to invoke the second amendment, I will point out that it is second, and second to the first.  The meaning and scope of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution has been described as among the most contested of the rights codified in the Bill of Rights.  It declares that “a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Many philosophers are called on to argue for the two sides of the argument, including Aristotle and Cicero.  How much of this do you know?  Christopher Schmidt writes “possessing arms appears to be distinct from “bearing” them, the possession of arms is recognized as necessary for and a logical precursor to the bearing of arms.”  I do not wish to argue one way or the other except to say that while you are right you are also wrong.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 3, 2009 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

For the thousand time, we have to put up with the usual misguided soul talking about censoring so called “toxic talk” coming from others while singing the praises of her total right to freedom of speech filled with hate, bigotry, racism and irrationality!

Again and over again we are reminded of the proverbial pot calling the kettle black!

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 3, 2009 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, February 3 at 4:05 pm #

By Shenonymous, February 3 at 4:38 am #

I wish we could have automatic weapons in homes across America like they do in Israel.

If the Palestinian populace were as individually armed as the Israeli populace is, Israel would think twice before infantry advanced.

1st amendment is only enabled by the 2nd amendment.
=================================
Your statement above in response to another poster is one of the most profound posts I ever read on Truthdig. Concise, short and to the point, it’s worth thousands of words said on the issue under discussion. I hope the misguided ones on this thread can understand and appreciate its depth.

Thank you!

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By PatrickHenry, February 3, 2009 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 3 at 4:38 am #

I wish we could have automatic weapons in homes across America like they do in Israel.

If the Palestinian populace were as individually armed as the Israeli populace is, Israel would think twice before infantry advanced.

1st amendment is only enabled by the 2nd amendment.

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By OzarkMichael, February 3, 2009 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

From Messenger Robert The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

Dear confused Robert,

One minute you wear the mask of the poor misunderstood victim. But then in the last post you issue threats like a jihadist. Because your last sentence in the quote above is a threat of violence. Everyone can read what Robert wrote and we can all judge for ourselves.

Calling me names doesnt bother me and it wont resolve the problems. 

So Robert, with everyone listening to you now, it is time to make up your mind. Which mask will you wear in your next post? The poor misunderstood lamb? Or the avenging angel?

Are you a messenger for peace or for violence?

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By Robert, February 3, 2009 at 8:39 am Link to this comment

Iraq’s Shocking Human Toll:

About 1 Million Killed, 4.5 Million Displaced, 1-2 Million Widows, 5 Million Orphans

By John Tirman

“February 02, 2009 “The Nation”—We are now able to estimate the number of Iraqis who have died in the war instigated by the Bush administration. Looking at the empirical evidence of Bush’s war legacy will put his claims of victory in perspective. Of course, even by his standards—“stability”—the jury is out. Most independent analysts would say it’s too soon to judge the political outcome. Nearly six years after the invasion, the country remains riven by sectarian politics and major unresolved issues, like the status of Kirkuk.

We have a better grasp of the human costs of the war. For example, the United Nations estimates that there are about 4.5 million displaced Iraqis—more than half of them refugees—or about one in every six citizens. Only 5 percent have chosen to return to their homes over the past year, a period of reduced violence from the high levels of 2005-07. The availability of healthcare, clean water, functioning schools, jobs and so forth remains elusive. According to Unicef, many provinces report that less than 40 percent of households have access to clean water. More than 40 percent of children in Basra, and more than 70 percent in Baghdad, cannot attend school.

The mortality caused by the war is also high. Several household surveys were conducted between 2004 and 2007. While there are differences among them, the range suggests a congruence of estimates. But none have been conducted for eighteen months, and the two most reliable surveys were completed in mid-2006. The higher of those found 650,000 “excess deaths” (mortality attributable to war); the other yielded 400,000. The war remained ferocious for twelve to fifteen months after those surveys were finished and then began to subside. Iraq Body Count, a London NGO that uses English-language press reports from Iraq to count civilian deaths, provides a means to update the 2006 estimates. While it is known to be an undercount, because press reports are incomplete and Baghdad-centric, IBC nonetheless provides useful trends, which are striking. Its estimates are nearing 100,000, more than double its June 2006 figure of 45,000. (It does not count nonviolent excess deaths—from health emergencies, for example—or insurgent deaths.) If this is an acceptable marker, a plausible estimate of total deaths can be calculated by doubling the totals of the 2006 household surveys, which used a much more reliable and sophisticated method for estimates that draws on long experience in epidemiology. So we have, at present, between 800,000 and 1.3 million “excess deaths” as we approach the six-year anniversary of this war.

This gruesome figure makes sense when reading of claims by Iraqi officials that there are 1-2 million war widows and 5 million orphans. This constitutes direct empirical evidence of total excess mortality and indirect, though confirming, evidence of the displaced and the bereaved and of general insecurity. The overall figures are stunning: 4.5 million displaced, 1-2 million widows, 5 million orphans, about 1 million dead—in one way or another, affecting nearly one in two Iraqis.

By any sensible measure, it would be difficult to describe this as a victory of any kind. It speaks volumes about the repair work we must do for Iraqis, and it should caution us against the savage wars we are prone to. Now that Bush is gone, perhaps the United States can honestly face the damage we have wrought and the responsibilities we must accept from it.”


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21888.htm

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By Shenonymous, February 3, 2009 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

It is amazing how you keep defending the Islamists, cyrena.  Denial of the toxic talk from the leader of Iran is ludicrous.  You make him out to be some kind of a cartoon.  No one needs even to draw it like the Danes did.  By the way, that reminds me again of free speech.  Yes Khamenei has the absolute right to say anything he wants.  But if it implies a threat then those who feel threatened have the same right to care!  You can wax as long as you want about the virtues of Iran, but it won’t change anything.  I am not looking for anything, he provides it.  As a student of history, cyrena, surely you have learned the value of recognizing a pattern.  Oh, yes.  I forgot, humans only note history, they never learn by it.  Yes, let Iran bluster violence all it wants and we will just think they are crazymen, nothing more.  And remember this, the free speech you so enjoy here in the United States would not be yours anywhere in the Islamic world.

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By cyrena, February 3, 2009 at 2:06 am Link to this comment

•  “He, Friedman, writes as his solution what he calls an Arab solution:  a five state solution.  That was January 27, a week ago.  Friedman notes Iran’s coveting the Palestinians and that his proposal would intercept that.  Peace be on Thomas Friedman if he even gets a response.  We don’t expect one, do we?”

Shenonymous,

I think that he (Friedman) doesn’t count for coming up with “Arab” solutions, and that he should just stay the hell out of it. That’s been the problem for eons..arrogant imperialists always trying to colonize entire continents and/or portions of them, deciding what is best for the Indigenous population. As in the Indigenous population that has lived there for tens of thousands of years, and would do quite well if the rest of the world, (or at least the West) would stay out of their business and quit stealing all of the natural resources that people need to live.

I’m sure old Thomas here thought it was a great idea when they started carving up large portions of Iraq and locking those people into those little miniature Gazas to allegedly quell the civil violence that the US had intentionally instigated in Iraq.

So nope. I don’t expect one. (a response to Friedman). The Arabs are perfectly capable of coming up with their OWN ‘solutions’ seeing as how they aren’t exactly stupid.  They did this ‘civilization thing’ long before anybody else figured it out. No doubt Friedman needs the money, since I heard the family is down to their last 6 or 8 million after being ‘victims’ of their fellow greed above all guy..Maddox of the fallen Ponzi scheme that wiped out so many of his brethren. So maybe he thought he could come up with an “Arab” solution and sell it to somebody. I just don’t know who. He’s as bad as Noah Feldman. Actually worse. At least Feldman did bother to learn the stuff. Speaks beautiful Arabic. But, he’s still a pompus asshole.

WHY does Friedman claim Iran to be ‘coveting’ the Palestinians? Jesus Hussein Christ!! “Coveting” them? Oh please!!

WE know who’s ‘coveting’ those Gazan off-shore natural gas fields and all the rest of the water, and the fish in it. That hasn’t changed in 60 years.

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By cyrena, February 2, 2009 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

OK Shenon,
I had to take notes to sort of formulate the gist of what you’re asking me here. Forgive me if I’m slow. I needed to re-read the thread again, back a ways.
Ok, so here we go…

By Shenonymous, February 2 at 7:29 pm #
“No, cyrena, that was not meant for you.  I was referring to Maani’s statement, about Ahmadinejad being real and dangerous.  Also I was not quoting a quote by anyone quoting Khamenai.  I copied his words exactly for the January 8, 2009, Associated Press report by Ali Akbar Dareine.  So no spin.  Are we to believe it doesn’t matter what he said”

First, you’re saying that what you posted here are exactly Khamenai’s words, at specific periods in history, and that YOU perceive a difference in what he says at one time, relative to what he’s stated at some other time. Well, I believe that. I wasn’t suggesting that you were making it up, or that somebody had said that somebody else had said it. It’s just that THIS is exactly what we’ve been talking about all along..

“Showing there is a history to Ali Khamenei’s omnipotent statements, much further back, December 15, 2000, Ali Khamenei called for the destruction of Israel calling it a cancerous tumor in the Middle East.  His aim is to have the Islamic world take claim over the land of Israel.  See CNN dot com Dec. 15, 2000.”

This is ….drumroll…ta da….PROPAGANDA!!! And, if you had read the excellent reference as you so generously provided to me, you’d KNOW this is how the stuff is intentionally ‘framed’ in the Western – Israeli spin, and has been for a real long time now Shenon!!

It’s the same old shit all the time, and so I have it memorized..”Calls for the Destruction..” blah, blah, blah, all neatly packaged in the same sentence with the rhetoric of Israel being a cancerous tumor in the Middle East, which equals Iran is gonna destroy Israel, and all of the world should be petrified.

So, despite the fact that all of this propaganda, sprouted by people at CNN and every other media outlet in the Western World, has been thoroughly and very efficiently broken down and analyzed for you, you’re still not making the connection.

It’s worth another read.

Does Iran’s President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?

An analysis of media rhetoric on its way to war against Iran - Commenting on the alleged statements of Iran’s President Ahmadinejad .

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

And yes, I know that you’re referring to Ali Khamenei as having said these things, (Israel cancerous tumor, must be destroyed, etc, etc) but the same words and the same accusations of the same propaganda have been attributed to the whole bunch of them, (at some point in the campaign) and specifically Ahmadinejad. You and CNN claim this is what Khamenei said eight years ago, and three years after that they were attributing the same maliciously manufactured script to Ahmadinejad.

TBC

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By cyrena, February 2, 2009 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

So all of this rhetoric has already been analyzed, and it just doesn’t mean what you all so desperately want it to mean, (Iran is a big bad aggressor that the world should be afraid of). So in that respect…that is the Western manipulated version of what these guys are actually saying, should indeed be ignored, because NO…it does not matter. More importantly, this manufactured interpretation should be ignored because it represents a LIE, based on the correct interpretation of what he’s saying.

In my OWN opinion/analysis of so many of these comments, (and the above report is SO good at breaking this down) these comments from any of the leadership in Iran (and other parts of the Middle East) are what we here comfortably accept as ‘euphemisms’ and call ourselves brilliant when we do. It’s all so PC, at least until such ‘euphemisms’ become painfully up front close and personal.
For instance, (in my view) it’s a perfectly valid existential ‘euphemism’ to view Israel as a cancerous tumor in the Middle East. It goes without saying that in their 60-year history in the Arabian Neighborhood, they’ve not quite managed to ‘assimilate’ if you know what I mean, and have consistently wrecked havoc on nearly ALL of its neighbors, at one point in time, often engaged in aggressive actions on more than one of them at the same time. In other words, another euphemism would do it: In the Middle Eastern Neighborhood, Israel is the ‘FAMILY FROM HELL’!

`The one in my old neighborhood lived right across the street from me, which gives me all the more validity for my empathy with the population of the Occupied Territories and Lebanon. This TX ‘family from hell’ wasn’t satisfied to live in their own house and share the common areas, (like the street) they wanted to be all over the entire block, including the houses where other folks lived! Talk about a cancerous, low-lifed, red-necked ignorant bunch of neurotics!!! Oh yeah, they were DEFINITELY a tumor, getting into it with everybody else on the block.

So, this guy isn’t the first and won’t be the last to refer to Israel as such. And when they do, they are referring to a regime that is determined to uphold APARTHEID conditions in the Middle East. As far as I’m concerned, APARTHEID is a cancerous tumor that should be exorcised.

I’d say it’s equally obvious from the later quotes that you’ve included, that he (Khamenei ) doesn’t believe that suicide bombing is the way to cure the cancerous tumor of Apartheid. That’s not all that strange. Iran has not been the aggressor in any war in Modern History.

So, it only matters what he said, IF you actually understand what he’s talking about – what he MEANS. If you don’t,  then it doesn’t matter.

Here’s some more information on him if you want to try to figure it out. Otherwise, you don’t have to. But, it is pretty fascinating if one is into this stuff. But this just gives a view into his ideology. The best article yet for sorting out the propagandized versions of what these various people have said is the one you already shared with me, but possibly didn’t read entirely yourself. That’s at the information clearinghouse link above.
[PDF]

Biography of H. E. Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

Sep 24, 2006 ... Biography of H. E. Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei. Contributed by Administrator. Sunday, 24 September 2006. Last Updated Sunday, 24 September

http://www.salamiran.org/content/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=58 -

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By Robert, February 2, 2009 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

February 2, 2009

Israeli War Crimes

Under the Black Flag

By URI AVNERY

“A Spanish judge has instituted a judicial inquiry against seven Israeli political and military personalities on suspicion of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The case: the 2002 dropping of a one ton bomb on the home of Hamas leader Salah Shehade. Apart from the intended victim, 14 people, most of them children, were killed.

For those who have forgotten: the then commander of the Israeli Air Force, Dan Halutz, was asked at the time what he feels when he drops a bomb on a residential building. His unforgettable answer: “A slight bump to the wing.” When we in Gush Shalom accused him of a war crime, he demanded that we be put on trial for high treason. He was joined by the Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, who accused us of wanting to “turn over Israeli army officers to the enemy”. The Attorney General notified us officially that he did not intend to open an investigation against those responsible for the bombing.

I should be happy, therefore, that at long last somebody is ready to put that action to a judicial test (even if he seems to have been thwarted by political pressure.) But I am sorry that this has happened in Spain, not in Israel.

* * *

ISRAELI TV VIEWERS have lately been exposed to a bizarre sight: army officers appearing with their faces hidden, as usual for criminals when the court prohibits their identification. Pedophiles, for example, or attackers of old women.

On the orders of the military censors, this applies to all officers, from battalion commanders down, who have been involved in the Gaza war. Since the faces of brigade commanders and above are generally known, the order does not apply to them.

Immediately after the cease-fire, the Minister of Defense, Ehud Barak, promoted a special law that would give unlimited backing by the state to all officers and soldiers who took part in the Gaza war and who might be accused abroad of war crimes. This seems to confirm the Hebrew adage: “On the head of the thief, the hat is burning”.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery02022009.html

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By Robert, February 2, 2009 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

Great stuff…ozarkminus,

Glad to see that you came up for a breather…now slither back down into your deep septic environment…that is where you & your ilk thrive!

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By OzarkMichael, February 2, 2009 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment

Here is a video which shows that we are building our own little Gaza here in the USA. Not as big as the Little Gaza in England but we are getting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOW__RKx_U

Notice the Hamas scarves. I actually feel sorry for the US congressman Keith Ellison, a Muslim. Maybe there is such a thing as a moderate Muslim after all. It doesnt look easy and by the end of the video I admired him. I might even vote for him. When Hamas tried to shout him down(notice the suppression of free speech is a constant goal for Hamas, everywhere they go) but Keith Ellison didnt give in.

Fortunately Keith is in the USA, because if he was in Gaza right now Hamas would have put a bullet through one of his kneecaps. Do you know the Hamas kneecap shot, Robert?

Speak up Messenger Robert! Dont just insult me. It bores me. Try to respond to what I am saying. Or is that above your paygrade?

Do you approve of how Hamas cripples moderate Muslims, Robert?

Palestinian lives are at stake right now, so show some balls for once and speak up.

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By Shenonymous, February 2, 2009 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

No, cyrena, that was not meant for you.  I was referring to Maani’s statement, about Ahmadinejad being real and dangerous.  Also I was not quoting a quote by anyone quoting Khamenai.  I copied his words exactly for the January 8, 2009, Associated Press report by Ali Akbar Dareine.  So no spin.  Are we to believe it doesn’t matter what he said

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By Robert, February 2, 2009 at 8:22 pm Link to this comment

Postcard to Kenneth Roth

Palestines fault?

01.30.20091.2009 | Flickr.com
By WiZaNe


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2662

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By Robert, February 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

Wow…Ozarkminus…you should really be proud of your fabulous bottom feeding material that you are trying to post. Great stuff…Ozark for that agenda of yours. Hey…make sure that your “grand-wizard” commends you on your bottom feeding garbage and of course…compensates you $$$ for it…eh!

Ozark…those deep & manure filled Ozark swamps can get extremely murky and stenchy, you need to surface for a breather every so often. Your head is way too septic…so a breather will help you stay longer at the bottoms of those manure filled swamps.

Do keep posting though…and remember to come up for the breather!

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By Shenonymous, February 2, 2009 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

This is a good time to remind those who frequent this forum the Amendment to the Constitution of the United States that guarantees Freedom of Speech.  Those of you who don’t like it here and demonstrate your intent to take every opportunity to denigrate it and undermine it really ought to migrate to the Middle East somewhere.  Then see how much free speech you have.  Try testing it, really test it.  You won’t because you know you will be killed.

Unlike any other country in the world, those freedoms guaranteed in this country of the United States are found in

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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By cyrena, February 2, 2009 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Was this for me Shenonymous?
•  “I see you capitulated a few feet and said that Ahmadinejad’s propaganda is real and dangerous.  Well which is it?  It is or it isn’t?  The words of the leaders, mouths and hammers are often acted on by those who bow.  Or haven’t you noticed?”

Or, Maani? From the posts, I gathered that Maani DOES believe the propaganda to be real and dangerous. I clearly do NOT see it as ‘dangerous’ in the least, but I do think it’s worth talking to Iran so that we know what they mean, instead of attaching meanings and deliberate misinterpretations to what comes from the political leadership in Iran, and thereby CREATING an ‘enemy’ where there is NOT one.

That’s not to say that I don’t agree that the words of leaders, mouths, hammers and neurotics are often acted upon by those who bow, as well as by brainwashed lemmings that don’t have a clue to what’s really going on. I realize how dangerous THOSE people are, because they just keep spreading the ignorance and/or the propaganda.

I don’t see any Iranians acting on such propaganda from Ahmadinejad though, (the US population is far more psychotic than all of the world combined, with the exception of Israel of course- or hadn’t you noticed?) so it’s a non-issue. The majority of the Iranians who elected the guy don’t really CARE whether you like him or not shenonymous. That’s the thing that we just have to start to accept here in the West. Unless you’re planning to move to the Middle East or Central Asia, and frolick among the cultural traditions of the area, it’s really not important WHAT Ahmadinejad says. NONE of the Iranain leadership is a ‘danger’ to any other portion of the rest of the world, since they are focused on their own security, and we already know – because I’ve mentioned this every time you bring it up, not only Iran, but the whole of the Arab World as well, is scared shitless of Israel’s nukes.

The Iranian Foreign Minister attending the session Saturday at Davos made a commitment to support the Arab World, (remember, they are NOT Arabs, they are Persians) and that they were committed to supporting the Palestinians. Whatever type of support you want to ‘conjure up’ in your own conditioned mind is for you to do or not. But if you think the Iranian leadership is so adept at providing the Palestinian resistance with weapons, one has to wonder why the militants still ONLY have those home-made soda pop bottles to shoot off in the NOT ALL THAT POPULATED areas that have been settled by the Israeli settlers. (which is part of the reason why they never hit anything).

Anyway, no equivocation from me here. I believe that Ahamadinejad means what he says when he says it, and that he is pretty much in line with the overall mentality of the Iranian leadership. I also believe that what they actually SAY, (as opposed to how what they say is SPUN for the lemmings) is worth paying attention to, but that’s because it’s a personal and professional interest on my part. But, I have no fear of boogeymen that have been created to be perceived as such. I always find out for myself who the real ‘enemy’ is.

Wading in the red herrings of propaganda is the danger, and I keep busy enough just ducking and dodging the barrage of them that the lemmings are slinging.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 2, 2009 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

Since this thread had been degenerated by two fascist bigots-racists to a level worse than gossip, I see it fit to post here the latest piece of gossip circulating the blog sphere:

Do you remember the Zionist Madoff who made off with over fifty billions of American investors money?! The rumor goes that this money ended in Israel, and part of it was used to finance the latest Zionist terrorist operation in Gaza.

In order to atone for his crimes, Madoff is now raising funds to finance another Israeli large-scale terrorist operation to kill a huge number of Palestinians children and women. His argument is that this fund-raising is necessary for two reasons:

(1) Since the American economy has been blown a deadly blow from which it might never recover, there is a real possibility that budget cuts might force the treasury to cut off the untold billions of dollars given to the Israeli terrorist enterprise from tax-payers’ money.

(2) He goes to argue, “Since it’s a vital interest of U.S. and Israel’s security to solve the Palestinian-Arab-Muslim demographic advantage over Israel, each dollar you donate will help kill a Palestinian-Arab-Muslim child or mother.”
Solicited donations can be sent to:

The Israeli Embassy,
Washington D.C.
c/o Kill a Palestinian-Arab-Muslim Child or Mother

Since I know that there are at least two bigot-racists here who will almost have a sexual-like orgy desire to see more of Palestinian-Arab-Muslim blood being shed, they are hereby notified so that they would not miss this charitable opportunity!

Now, who knows who are those candidates?!

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By Shenonymous, February 2, 2009 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

The problem is that Ahmadinejad may be the “figurehead” and not the power (and we all know the power is held by Ali Khamenei), as figurehead he is “simply” the mouth of Iran.

I see you capitulated a few feet and said that Ahmadinejad’s propaganda is real and dangerous.  Well which is it?  It is or it isn’t?  The words of the leaders, mouths and hammers are often acted on by those who bow.  Or haven’t you noticed?

As late as September 20, 2008, Ali Khamenei says Iran and Israel are on schedule to have open hostility.  Without doubt, he created tensions and forecast a conflict erupting.  See the LA Times Sept. 20, 2008.

Showing there is a history to Ali Khamenei’s omnipotent statements, much further back, December 15, 2000, Ali Khamenei called for the destruction of Israel calling it a cancerous tumor in the Middle East.  His aim is to have the Islamic world take claim over the land of Israel.  See CNN dot com Dec. 15, 2000.

Then recently as January 8, 2009, while Ali Khamenei ordered “hardline Irani volunteers” to not carry out any suicide bombings against Israel, he did warn that Iran would assist the militant (terrorist) Hamas “in other ways.”  “Hardline Iranian student groups had asked the government to authorize volunteers to go carry out suicide bombings in Israel in support of Hamas. The students began signing up after Khamenei issued a religious decree on Dec. 28 saying anyone killed while defending Palestinians in Gaza against Israeli attacks would be considered a martyr.

A week later, Khamenei’s comments sharply contrasted his religious order. 

“I thank the pious and devoted youth who have asked to go to Gaza ... but it must be noted that our hands are tied in this arena,” Khamenei said on state television. He did not elaborate how Iran would help Hamas in other ways.”  Associated Press report by Ali Akbar Dareini.  Doesn’t anyone want to venture a guess?

Is Ali Khamenei flipflopping?  So which is it Ali?  On again off again.  Is this also how Ahmadinejad will be treated?  First the “loss of favor” then brought into the fold again because the ‘night cables are falling all over him.”

Seems like Thomas L. Friedman has made an interesting proposal in King Abdullah’s name.  But the King has not answered.  He, Friedman, writes as his solution what he calls an Arab solution:  a five state solution.  That was January 27, a week ago.  Friedman notes Iran’s coveting the Palestinians and that his proposal would intercept that.  Peace be on Thomas Friedman if he even gets a response.  We don’t expect one, do we?

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By cyrena, February 2, 2009 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

Maani writes:

•  “Re Iran, what no one appears to realize is that the power is held largely by Ali Khamenei (Supreme Leader of Iran) and the mullahs, who control the political, economic, cultural and religious life of Iran.  Ahmadinejad is largely a “figurehead,” with little real power.”
Maani,

Actually, MANY of us DO know this. But guess what? The US has refused to even talk with the religious leaders of Iran, which is of course incredibly stupid, because as so many neutrally and intellectually pragmatic people have pointed out, there are times when we HAVE to talk to and engage with people we DON’T LIKE!! (for WHATEVER the reason!)

In this case, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei would appear to be even more conservative than Ahmadinejad, though not by much, so I’m not so sure that your theory of ‘internal disagreement’ within the ranks of the Iranian political hierarchy is even correct. Sounds like another thread of the propaganda. If the Clerics were that pissed off at Ahmadinejad, he wouldn’t be the President.

Here’s some stuff to know

http://www.salamiran.org/IranInfo/State/Leadership/Leader/LeaderBiography.html

As for Ahmadinejad and his so-called ‘dangerous plan’ that’s more bullshit. It’s the standard DEMONIZATION that the US and Israel have set up since he was elected, though the history is so much longer than that.

The bottom line of the relationship between the US and Iran results from the same policy that has existed for ages between the US and any other country (with natural resources that is) that has resisted US colonial type powers. With Iran, it began with the overthrow of the democratically elected and very SECULAR Mossadegh, back in 1953. The CIA did a coup, overthrew Mossadeqh because he planned to Nationalize Iran’s Oil resources, which would have eliminated the British and US control over same, and replaced him with the US puppet, The Shah. In 1979, the Revolution overthrew the Shah and restored clerical leadership. It’s an interesting history, and critical to any understanding of what is happening in Iran today. So, you should check it out in your spare time. (It will take a while, but the sources are plentiful – no need for digging through dusty library stacks any more.)

Meantime, there is absolutely NOTHING ‘dangerous’ about the Iranians desire to have a Civil Energy program. They are participants and signatories to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, which not only guarantees them the RIGHT to develop their natural resources for civilian purposes, but ALSO guarantees them ASSISTANCE from the world community (or the already big time nuclear powers) in developing the technology.

READ the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty HERE:
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Treaties/npt.html

Now for the past 6 years, the US and Israel have formulated a demonization campaign against Iran by way of Ahmadinejad. (The longer the name, the easier it is to ‘demonize’) Consequently, nobody has paid the slightest bit of attention to what this guy (or anyone else in the Iranian Leadership) has had to say.

In reality, Ahmadinejad AND other leaders have frequently made it clear that AS AN ISLAMIC STATE, Iran has no “NEED” or DESIRE for nuclear WEAPONS!! It just doesn’t ‘fit’ with the ideology of Islam, to engage in such horrific tactics of warfare. In fact, like so many of us in the hard core ANTI-nuke crowd, (I’m at the head of the pack in that crowd) the Iranians don’t think ANY nation should be in possession of nuclear WEAPONS, and they have called upon the West to abide by their own obligations to the NPT in REDUCING the nuclear weapons arsenal that the West AND ISRAEL already have!!

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By cyrena, February 2, 2009 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
That said, (the ideology that rejects nuclear weaponry) the GEOPOLITICAL REALITY is that Iran is SURROUNDED by states armed with nuclear WEAPONS – India, Pakistan, Russia, China, and of course let’s not forget the ONLY little innocent guy on the ME part of the map – ISRAEL. Israel is the ONLY nuclear-armed state in the Greater Middle East, and Iran has been in the neighborhood a really long time. They’ve SEEN what Israel can and will do to KEEP it that way. (Israel’s attack on Iraq’s reactor in 1978 is just one example).

Consequently, the ‘politics’ of the thing, and how they’re being manipulated by demonizing Iran/Ahmadinejad aren’t so visible to the ideologically biased eye and/or pre-conditioned ‘eye’. But that doesn’t mean these ‘forces’ aren’t in strong motion.

Please read the very well done (scholastically speaking) article at the link. It is lengthy, and the entire thing should be read in order to connect the dots, which the authors do very well.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

As for the ‘who really holds the power’ in Iran, I already know the setup because I’ve studied it for a while now. This whole thing of ‘internal displeasure’ with Ahmadinejad is just more propaganda, and we should be accustomed to it by now. This is what the US policy has been for decades, and certainly for the past 8 years.

Propaganda is a REQUIRED tool in CREATING AN ENEMY, and terrorizing by way of creating civil strife.
History bears this out.

For that, you’d have to go to the Political THEORY books, and it starts to get complicated. But, in a really tiny nutshell, the ‘creation of an enemy’ is integral to political mechanics.

That’s what you see happening here, and there are multiple historical examples of it, just from 20th Century conflicts alone.

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By Maani, February 2, 2009 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena et al:

Here is the Obama interview on Al Arabiya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO_lLttxxrs

Re Iran, what no one appears to realize is that the power is held largely by Ali Khamenei (Supreme Leader of Iran) and the mullahs, who control the political, economic, cultural and religious life of Iran.  Ahmadinejad is largely a “figurehead,” with little real power.

Khamenei and the mullahs do not support Ahmadinejad’s radical anti-Israel propaganda.  In fact, they are quite unhappy with him right now - though they do not share these feelings with the West.  Indeed, it seems likely that the mullahs may run a candidate against him in the next election.

This does not mean that Ahmadinejad’s propaganda is not real and dangerous.  It is.  But he does not have the power to take ANY action without the approval of Khamenei and the ruling council - which he will not get.

Re Gaza, the following might be of interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/opinion/28friedman.html?pagewanted=print

Peace.

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By OzarkMichael, February 2, 2009 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

Robert the Messenger’s World: or…“Why do I stop caring about Palestinian civilian deaths now that Israel withdrew? answer: Because its only Hamas that is doing the killing now. And Palestinians killed by Hamas is the price I am willing to pay to destroy Israel!”

Come, Messenger Bob. Talk to me. Do it for the children.

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By OzarkMichael, February 2, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment

cyrena: Anyway, Obama is the consummate politician, so I sense that he is possibly talking out of the right side of his mouth while he’s signing the documents with his left hand. But since he’s doing it in the wide open view of the world, it’s up to the rest of us to figure it out.

I can’t find the video of this Interview that Obama did last week with the Arab press. I have it somewhere, but I’ll have to dig. Still, this may lead you to it. It was an important conversation.


I agree. cyrena, if i take the time to collect and analyse what Obama has said so far, would you read what i come up with? I was going to do this for myself anyway, but I would go the extra trouble of writing it up and posting it here if you are interested.

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By OzarkMichael, February 2, 2009 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

Robert the Messenger said: Bob Simon from 60 Minutes is catching some flack over the airing piece regarding Israel & its brutal IDF occupation of the Palestinians.

Did he have his head ritually severed by Zionists? No?

Well, try criticizing Islam like Theo Van Gogh did. For airing a piece regarding Islam and its brutal treatment of women… he was killed. He had insulted Christians and Jews for years and nothing happened. But then he went after Islam, which was his undoing.

Messenger Bob, talk to me about what Theo Van Gogh means to you.  Did he deserve to die?

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By Robert, February 2, 2009 at 7:04 am Link to this comment

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.

Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.

Statistics Last Updated: December 9, 2008

http://ifamericansknew.org/

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By OzarkMichael, February 1, 2009 at 10:27 pm Link to this comment

Dearest Messenger Robert:

People who insult Islam get much worse than Alison did. To the point where they spend the REST OF THEIR LIVES with 24 hour guards, they cannot stay in one place long, they have to move constantly.

So does Alison Weir have to live that way for the rest of her life? 24 hour guards? Like Geert Wilders?

Does Alison Weir have to move every few days to another secret location? Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

Did she actually get assasinated? Like Theo Van Gogh?

Tell me the story, Messenger Bob.

Try just for once to defend the nonsense that you post. Dont be like Fadel “Running Dog” Abdallah, who posted something about abrogation (mixed in with the usual insults) but then retreated as soon as I showed how absolutely wrong he was.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 10:24 pm Link to this comment

I watched the two 60 Minutes programs.  Thank you cyrena for providing the links.  You are certainly heads above your vulgar colleagues.  You are the only one in the coalition in control of her mind and who provided sane evidence of the way the Israelis feel about the Palestinians.  It would be just as good if there was a similar interview of Palestinians and their feelings about Israelis.  I think Mr. Simon ought to make that a second trip.

I did not like what I saw.  The Israelis were shown to be barbarous and ruthlessly unfeeling.  They obviously concluded long before the January invasion that the Palestinians cannot live within the border of Israel, regardless of the agreement years ago.  They do not want a one or two state solution.  This obviously has to be brokered by the powers that be.  My feeling is that there is no solution where Palestinians will live inside the border of Israel.  I’ve expressed why the western world will continue to support Israel regardless of their wretched treatment of the Palestinians.  I feel utterly sorry for the Palestinians.  They are the worst kind of victim.  Victim of their enemies from without (the Israelis) and victim of their enemies from within (the Hamas and the rest of the Arab world). 

However, it does no one any good to act like animals.  Neither the Israelis nor those partisans on this forum.  The shameful zealousness with which most of the commenters on this and other forums shows them to be an ugly lot of people.  Of course you can’t see yourselves that way.  Why would you, you are blindly defensivel and unreflective about anything except your own self-serving sense of outrage.  You obviously and naturally band together like indignantly righteous clansmen.  It becomes exactly apparent how that kind of mob mind occurs.  You are not unlike your brethren the Ku Klux Klan.

You hate it that I question your insensitivity about the freedom of speech.  You wish to stifle mine.  And will say anything to make you seem in the right. You are wrong. You are fortunate your freedom is guaranteed in this country.  But it isn’t elsewhere.  That has been my consistent point.  Laughably you make my point with every beastly criticism you have made of me.  You are the ones who are deplorable.

Final comment to cyrena.  I read the transcript of the Ahmadinejad interview with Larry King, and read several articles on many sites about what he “really” said.  And he is misquoted many times   It is not clear he wants the destruction of Israel nor is it clear he denies the Jewish holocaust.  However, the German foreign minister last September 27, 2008 publicly accuses Ahmadinejad of being a “latent anti-Semitic” in a speech given to the United Nations General Assembly.  This may be found at the Haaretz.com website as the Iranian President “railed against “Zionist murderers” and Zionist control of international finance. Condoleeza Rice requested that the council take up the matter of one member (Iran) of the UN calling for the destruction of another member (Israel) and he was accused again of calling for the wiping of Israel off the face of map in 2005.  We expect the United States to have taken the stand it did under the Bush Administration.  Where exactly does the truth lie?  It depends on one’s perspective.  So with culpability on all sides it is fairly obvious that nothing said on these forums has any effect on the world in the least.

You do not understand the freedom of speech as it applies to each and every human being.  But you do have your own conscious that you have to live with and what you have said about me and my character because you have no answers to my questions nor are able to argue without the verbal equivalent of beating someone’s body shows you as petty as you can get.  You are truly the most loathsome kind of men.

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By OzarkMichael, February 1, 2009 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

For those of you who defend Ahmadinejad as if he is a misunderstood victim of westerners, here is a little direct information for you. 

All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statements, including a description of it on his own Web site refer to wiping Israel away. The official translators speak both Persian and English.

Rather than believe the Hamas propagada machine, why not just read it for yourself?

Go to his domestic speeches, December 2005.

(http://www.president.ir/eng/)

Plenty of ammunition to shoot down the ‘misunderstood’ theory about Mr Ahmadinejad. There is also another speech where all the nations which dont support Hamas will ‘feel the wrath’ of their local Islamic community. You know, like in Britain. Little Gazas everywhere.

In Fitnah, Mr Ahmadinejad is shown making a speech about how Islam is going to rule everywhere. If a Christian said that you would call him a fascist. Why is it so hard for you to call Mr Ahmadinejad a fascist?

Why is it so hard to admit that Hamas is fascist?

Down with Hamas!

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By Robert, February 1, 2009 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment

FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST “ISRAELI/MOSSAD” STYLE


Journalist Receives Death Threat for Talking About Israel


“Alison Weir searched the facts about Israel and found “a situation largely the reverse of what was reported in the American Media.”

What happens when an American freelance journalist learns the facts about Israel and starts to inform fellow Americans?

SHE GETS HER LIFE THREATENED!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link to hear it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spXA7GrOcLU

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By OzarkMichael, February 1, 2009 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

This article and video come from London I think 3 weeks ago. It was billed as a peaceful organized protest for the plight of Palestinians. The police had to run when the Sons of Allah turned on them.

The funny part is when one of the protesters shouts “Islam is Peace!”... while he throws a traffic cone that hits a police officer.

Maybe not so funny. The bad thing is this will influence British politics. 

Oh, in fact it already has. A week ago the Islamists threated a similar protest over Geert Wilders coming to Britain to show Fitna. So Fitna was cancelled. It still hasnt been shown anywhere.

The people who suppress free speech at the UN are the ones who back Hamas.

The people who suppress free speech in Britain are the ones who back Hamas.

The ones who intimidate people on this very thread are the ones who back Hamas.

Free speech matters! Over the long and sorry history of mankind, the people who suppress speech by threats and intimidation are always on the wrong side of the issue. Is that the side you want to be on? Is that the price you are willing to pay?

If you care about free speech, do not accept the praise of Fadel and his ilk.

Watch the video yourself. You Hamas supporters can cheer for the protestors while they peacefully chase the police about 5 blocks. London has to deal with its own Gaza:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133120/Police-ran-away-jeering-Gaza-demonstrators.html#

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 8:59 pm Link to this comment

Robert,
Thanks for this information on Hitchens. Indeed, he DOES owe you an apology. Hitchen’s has been pissing me off lately anyway. Like for about 2 years now at least.
But that’s the way it’s become, even in academia. I remember even 4 years ago when my 2nd nephew was starting college. He’s a good and conscientious student, (they all are really) and so he’d been accepted everywhere he applied, including the Engineering program at UC Berkeley. I asked him why he didn’t take that, instead of UCLA, (partly because I was gently teasing him about not wanting to leave ‘home’) and he told me that ‘nowadays, students need body armor on that campus to keep from getting stabbed in the back by the academic ‘competition’.  Of course he was exaggerating the way he’s known to do, but I definitely got his point. In fact, there is a measure of this on my own campus, and I’ve watched it grow over the last 5 years. Depending on the department of course, it’s become really knock down drag out stuff that includes this despicable lack of professional scholastic or journalistic integrity. It’s not so bad at the undergraduate level, but it has gotten ugly on the graduate level, at least in some departments.

I immediately recognized it with dismay, since it was the same old shit I thought I’d left behind on the corporate slave plantations.


Anyway, thanks for the note and the link.

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

•  “Okay, looking at the maps presented on TomDispatch.com it looks awfully like Palestinians had a lot of land offered regardless of how broken up it was or security barriered.  Hmmm Seems like Israel offered a lot.” 

~~~~

Tell me you’re kidding here shenon. You don’t REALLY believe that Israel ‘offered a lot’ more than killing now do you? DO you have a CLUE to what the West Bank is like? Do you not ‘get’ that Arabs DIE DAILY at checkpoints all over the West Bank? A ‘LOT OF LAND OFFERED TO THEM???? REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT ISRAEL RULES THEIR LIVES, DOESN’T ALLOW THEM ACROSS CHECK POINTS TO GET TO HOSPITALS to deliver their babies or seek any other medical help. IMPRISONS THEM FOR LIFE VIA THE ISRAELI MILITARY COURT SYSTEM, REFUSES TO ALLOW THEM EMPLOYMENT, WATER? What the hell kind of ‘land offer’ is THAT?

•  “Once the Palestinians had their land and relations settled down, and proved they no longer were a threat, they could change the wall situation.  So the complaint that it would be a bedroom community is weak because what were they expecting?  Tel Aviv?  There doesn’t seem to be any point to the maps really.  It didn’t happen.  Were relations ever normalized, probably never possible but let us speculate anyway, the labyrinthine road situation might be fixed.  As it is, Israel was and still is paranoid about the possible ease of attack by suicide bombers or other launches of hostility and they have history to show their fears are not unwarranted.”

How the hell do you think the labyrinthine road situation ‘might be fixed’? They’re CONTINUING TO BUILD NEW ‘JEWS ONLY ROADS’ ALL OVER THE FUCKING PLACE, with special license plates and registrations to jump whatever checkpoints are there to keep the Palestinians imprisoned. How the hell are the Palestinians supposed to ‘get settled’ Shenon? Just how the hell are they supposed to do THAT, when Israel daily bulldozes any attempts they make at building housing?  What don’t you get about the situation on the ground in the Occupied Territories Shenon?

And STOP with the suicide bombers stuff. They haven’t been used as an asymmetrical resistance tactic in over 15 years. Israel’s so called ‘paranoia’ is far more realistic, and based on the same fears that the early American settlers had of the African Slaves. You’re damn right they’re paranoid. THEY (or their leadership) has given them every reason to be. Kill off a bunch of folks, starve them, beat them, collectively punish their families. Oh yeah…they should be very much afraid. Remember…same thing applies as to Ahmadinejad…These particular Jews may be crazy as hell, (they are about the most neurotic people any ‘group’ has ever been able to assemble in the history of the modern world) but they aren’t stupid. They know what they want, and won’t settle for anything less. If they can convince people like you that they’re so very afraid of what those 8-year old stone throwing kids are doing to their tanks and soldier snipers, because they’re just so damn dangerous, then they’ve got one more sucker for the pile.

But, you guys are becoming more and more a minority, if only because modern technology is wising up the rest of the world.

As for the Apartheid Wall? It has been denounced by the World Court ‘juris opinion’ as totally illegal, in part because the SOB’s built it on Palestinian Territory!!!

http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/ICJ_fence.htm

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

OK Shenonymous,

I found them. This was only aired on the 28th – so 4 days ago. But, lots of folks are pretty pissed. It’s a painful truth that they’ve tried so hard (and managed) to keep so hidden from the rest of the world.

That said, you’re right about the atrocities in Darfur, that have been perpetrated by the like members of the same racial group against the other, which is exactly what the world ignored in Rwanda, FOR THE SAME REASON. It was just Africans killing other Africans. The Hutu and the Tutsi. The conditions/properties of the on-going genocides in the Sudan and in the Occupied Territories comparable in terms of the politics.

The METHODS USED are different in some respects, between the genocides in Africa and the cleansing of the Arabs from the Occupied Territories. The African Genocides have involved rape as a tool, (most of these operations do) but I’ve not seen that so much (myself) in my study of the Palestinian cleansing, which has gone on far longer than these other genocides. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened, and god knows far worse has. Still, that’s the one thing that is ‘seemingly’ different to the cleansing that Israel has perpetrated against the Palestinians for so very long. They just use other ways to get the same job accomplished.

I am MORTIFIED myself, that the world community (as directed by the US policy of the past 8 years) has so totally failed the victims of the Darfur genocide. I have hope that we will do more now, because the tools for stopping this thing ARE available.

Anyway, here are the links..

CBS 60 Minutes Exposing Israeli Apartheid -part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLKWz29SLgo&feature=related

CBS 60 Minutes Exposing Israeli Apartheid -part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxLbkX0A3o0

This one from earlier, it’s right on spot.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175026/sandy_tolan_five_questions_for_george_mitchell

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

•  “Will you deny the murder of millions of Jews along with Ahmadinejad?”

Nope, I won’t deny the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews by the Nazis shenon, and NEITHER DOES AHMADINEJAD. (Or, “Imadinnerjacket” as rowdy long ago tagged him – I still laugh when I recall that). He doesn’t ‘deny’ the Jewish Holocaust. He denies the MYTH that the Zionists have used the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis to do exactly the same thing to the Indigenous population of Palestine. And, if you understood Arabic, (I don’t but the translation has been provided here multiple times) then you’d know that’s the point he’s making. It’s really bad what the Nazis did to the Jews, and what the Israelis have done to their Middle Eastern neighbors since the artificial inception of what has become a completely ROGUE state, is far worse in my opinion, if only because it’s gone on for so damn long now.

So no. I don’t believe for an instant that Ahmadinejad is a fool. He’s colorful, sometimes confrontational and/or provocative, and oftentimes rhetorical, but no…he’s not a fool. It should not be a surprise that the Iranian people elected him when they did, as a counter-reaction to the continued geopolitical aggression of the West. In other words, EVERYBODY has ‘security’ concerns, including the Iranians. And..they’re all afraid of the same entity, The Terrorist Twins that have been terrorizing the Middle East, for decades…the US and Israel.

BUT, I see some major improvement up and coming. (actually, already here). Prez O has already committed to the Arab world, (and Iran and others of the Middle East who aren’t “Arab”) to say that he’s ready to do something else that hasn’t been done in decades..he’s ready to LISTEN to what they’re saying, and somebody (can’t remember who now, is gonna talk to Khomeini as well, which is exactly what we should have been doing all along, but of course that has simply NOT been allowed in the US Foreign Policy of the past 8 years. Clinton was marginally better, since he at least sort of went though the motions. But it was an unacceptable (at least in the long term) deal that he tried to manage, so there was no realistic way it might be accomplished.

As for Ahmadinejad, he’s a perfect example of a ‘description’ my elders have used in the past…”He might be crazy, but he ain’t no fool.”

•  “ At least you didn’t resort to bashing me, cyrena.  But be careful, you might still get blistered for not joining the gang bangers.  A capitulation would be understandable given the force they have.”

Nope, I wouldn’t resort to bashing you Shenonymous, and I find the use of ‘ever’ appropriate here. (Generally I avoid committing to ‘never’ because I don’t like to eat my words, or even ‘live’ what I’ve frequently said ‘never’ about. So, I’m superstitious about “never saying never”. Just an idiosyncrasy I suppose). But I think I can use it safely enough here. I don’t ‘capitulate’ under the force of verbal attacks by anyone, so I’m not inclined to ‘bash’ you as a result of peer pressure, and I don’t see any of them having any ‘force’ that would overcome my independent thinking. Now if they start torturing me and have a knife at my throat, telling me to ‘bash you or else’, then I might do it. You’ll just have to know that it isn’t personal. wink

The World Economic Forum is really just about that…World Economics. But that includes world politics. Today’s particular session, (I’ll try to find it) involved some discussion on aid to the Middle East, so of course it would be high on the list.

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
The 60 Minutes Interview that was done in the Occupied Territories provides a glimpse of what I mentioned before, in terms of rhetoric that clearly defines the mindset of many everyday Israelis. It is basically…they want the Palestinian Arabs GONE. ALL of them. Period..wiped off the map, or driven into the sea, or starved, or napalmed, ..whatever it takes.  This same interview also includes a short conversation with some very committed settlers, (this was an Arial Sharon project before he became comatose – presumably he still is) and they sprout much of this same very radical rhetoric. There is even a clip from back in the day, when there was a single attempt made to move or prevent these settlers from further encroachment, (even though that had been Sharon’s plan as well, when Israel pretended to withdraw from Gaza). The IDF actually attempted to move them, and yes..there was bloodshed. They say they aren’t going anywhere, and will defy any attempts (by their own government) to move them. So these particular Jews, (and there are several hundred thousand of them now, literally entrenched all over the West Bank) obviously aren’t the same ‘scared Jews’ that you mention in an early post. In fact, they don’t appear to be ‘scared’ of anybody.

So, check that out if you have time. I watched it through a UTube link, and I know I saved it somewhere on this computer. I’ll look for it right now.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment

You are relentless and so am I Folktruther.  Slam away.  You do sound more an more like an Islamist terrorist shill.  You are trying to refine the art of gang banging but simply cannot out last me!  I am immune to your raping exercises.  Call on your troops.  She can stand anything you, and they, can throw.  This is all about freedom of speech and your absolute ignorance of what that means. 

I say that your liege, Islam, does not abide freedom of speech.  Do you deny it? 

Yes, I am more dangerous than the common variety Jew.  I am not a Jew and that makes me without loyalties except to the independent pacifistic mind.  And that is what will do you in.  Your every post, everywhere you make them, belies your inadequacies.  And cowards follow you everywhere.  Cowards who cannot think and argue for themselves.  Mere messengers as someone called them. 

Freedom of speech is not what you can stand.  You have a compulsion to destroy freedom of speech wherever you encounter it.  Use whatever vile language you can muster.  it is getting kinda old now, though, please come up with some better vicious phrases.

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

Shenonamous, keep those cards and letters comming babe!

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By Folktruther, February 1, 2009 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

Robert, Fadel, Cyrena I don’t think Sheronymous is counscously parroting Aipac propaganda;  I just think she has a screw loose somewhere, like Trith.  For some reason she just can’t think straight.  I think, perhaps wrongly, that Shenonymous is an independant dingbat, Educated beyond her capacity to learn.


But this makes what she says much more serious.  It conseqquently more ominous that she advocates the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population.  Moving them from their country, homes, businesses and jobs.  A growing fraction of the Israeli population is also espousning Transfer, which cannot be acheived with three or four million people without enormous slaughter.  This view of ethnic cleansing has come to the Educated people of Texas.

Shenonymous’s bigotry against Muslims is homegrown.  A very worrisome condition, much more so than if it came from an Aipac or End Time Ziofascist.  It means that there is increasing support in the US for a Palestinian Final Solution.  Shenonymous is an omen of the increasing frustration of a war against a population, when there is only one way to win it.  And this has penetrated the Dem pseudo-liberals from the right.  That is why Shenonymous is important: not for what she says, but for what she indicates historically.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

Lovely advice from a wonderfully sick mind.  Do listen to it. It doesn’t matter to me.  I will keep posting exactly where and when I want.  I suggest you ignore me too.

Once again the irrational death threat/wish from the same unhealthy source as before.  This time I shall complain to the Truthdig administrators for his utterly foul language.  I have saved all the other ones and can cite them precisely.  I do hope you appreciate your comrade’s undeveloped nature.  He is really uncontrollable.  Freedom of speech is obviously not in any of you gang bangers’ (you know who you are) vocabulary or understanding of freedom.  We know why.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 1, 2009 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Robert and Cyrena:

This is a friendly appeal for you to stop responding to this disaster hopeless case which everyone knows by now. She is that kind of sick soul that thrives on convincing herself that she is important and has a valid point of view as a legitimate interlocutor. She is obviously the ultimate Islamaphobic/Arabphobic bigot and hater, and as people address her she further gets intoxicated with her bigotry.

I am convinced that to end her rants and ravings she should be ignored and then, at least, she might feel embarrassed to further continue writing for herself for fear of further exposing her sickness.

I am for one will do one of the following:

(1) Pray to my compassionate God to cure her from her mental sickness, so she might see the light;
(2) If God determines that she incurable, then may He hasten to make her get consumed by her hatred and bigotry till she drops dead!

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By Robert, February 1, 2009 at 3:46 pm Link to this comment

Sheeeeno…just keep posting your AIPAC version(s) on TD. Its all plop plop from those AIPAC cattle drives!

BTW, Cyrena is away ahead on the trail of TRUTH & HUMANITY!

*************


Wednesday, May 03, 2006

Hitchens the Hacker; And, Hitchens the Orientalist
And, “We don’t Want Your Stinking War!

Christopher Hitchens owes me a big apology.

“I belong to a private email discussion group called Gulf2000. It has academics, journalists and policy makers on it. It has a strict rule that messages appearing there will not be forwarded off the list. It is run, edited and moderated by former National Security Council staffer for Carter and Reagan, Gary Sick, now a political scientist at Columbia University. The “no-forwarding” rule is his, and is intended to allow the participants to converse about controversial matters without worrying about being in trouble. Also, in an informal email discussion, ideas evolve, you make mistakes and they get corrected, etc. It is a rough, rough draft.

Hitchens somehow hacked into the site, or joined and lurked, or had a crony pass him things. And he has now made my private email messages the subject of an attack on me in Slate. (I am not linking to the article because it is highly unethical and Slate does not deserve any direct traffic from my site for it.) Moreover, he did not even have the decency to quote the final outcome of the discussions.

I’d like to take this opportunity to complain about the profoundly dishonest character of “attack journalism.” Journalists are supposed to interview the subjects about which they write. Mr. Hitchens never contacted me about this piece. He never sought clarification of anything. He never asked permission to quote my private mail. Major journalists have a privileged position. Not just anyone can be published in Slate. Most academics could not get a gig there (I’ve never been asked to write for it). Hitchens is paid to publish there because he is a prominent journalist. But then he should behave like a journalist, not like a hired gun for the far Right, smearing hapless targets of his ire. That isn’t journalism. For some reason it drives the Right absolutely crazy that I keep this little web log, and so they keep trotting out these clowns in amateurish sniping attacks. It is rather sad, that one person standing up to them puts them into such piranha-like frenzy.

The precise reason for Hitchens’ theft and publication of my private mail is that I object to the characterization of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having “threatened to wipe Israel off the map.” I object to this translation of what he said on two grounds. First, it gives the impression that he wants to play Hitler to Israel’s Poland, mobilizing an armored corps to move in and kill people.

But the actual quote, which comes from an old speech of Khomeini, does not imply military action, or killing anyone at all. The second reason is that it is just an inexact translation. The phrase is almost metaphysical. He quoted Khomeini that “the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time.” It is in fact probably a reference to some phrase in a medieval Persian poem. It is not about tanks.”

http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitchens-hacker-and-hitchens.html

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Why Roberto, you may wish with all your heart that what you say has a speck of truth to it.  Fact is, I am not shattered in the least.  But you certainly are.  I am not calling you names and I haven’t called anybody names.  But you and your cronies do engage in such puerile behavior.  And you are completely wrong in your assessment, I am quite correct about Ahmadinejad. He indicts himself.  Perhaps you need remedial reading lessons?  Too bad.  Oh yes, I have often admitted to being arrogant, but sick, naw, that is just a figment of your own short-changed imagination.  Too bad, fella, try again.  Do try to stop spraying your spit all over everything in your vicinity.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

...that’s EXACTLY what it is. PROPAGANDA. Guess what else? This very same propaganda has been floating on the Arabian Winds for way longer than Ahmadinejad has been alive.  Shall we suppose that because it has been going on that it ought to be ignored.  Oh so that’s it.  You are saying Ahmadinejad is a fool. right?  Okay.

What exactly are you saying about Israel’s version?  I just listened to the guy, you know, Ahmadinejad.

Well it was Nazi propaganda that shepherded the Jews into ovens.  Will you deny the murder of millions of Jews along with Ahmadinejad?  At least you didn’t resort to bashing me, cyrena.  But be careful, you might still get blistered for not joining the gang bangers.  A capitulation would be understandable given the force they have.

I will definitely look up any evidence of rational men trying to sort out and stopping the killing of each other.  Now I am going to assume that this World Economic Forum, isn’t about money since we are talking about propaganda for killing Jews.  But even if it isn’t, I’ll take a look because you so passionately recommend it. 

Do you think they will honor the inalienable right of free-speech?  The attackdawg denizens of this forum do not!  Do you think it will ever be the case where an unmoderated session of world leaders could get together to talk about how to solve the inequities in the world?  Why how could genocide of Jews ever take place again?  How can mankind do such a thing?  Again?  How did it happen the first time?  Look at Darfur and what Muslims are doing to those people.  Guess they don’t count as much as Jews don’t count.  Nobody thought it was possible in the Sudan either.  No one of the free world is doing anything for those truly forsaken people.  Shall we deny what is happening there too?  Or happened in South Africa?  Dare I speak about it?

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By Robert, February 1, 2009 at 1:53 pm Link to this comment

Sheeeno…your nerves seem shattered. Almost all what you have tried to post on this thread is pure zionist propaganda garbage.

Cyrena has just posted & shattered your Iranian president speech translation, which your version was totally false.

You have flunked out on this thread…but do keep posting. Israel & zionism’s crimes do need dedicated & brainwashed people like yourself.

You have a sick arrogant mind!

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By cyrena, February 1, 2009 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment

It is not secret that Ahmadinejad frequently calls for “wiping off the map,” of Israel, he has spoken this on television.  It doesn’t need made up.  I suppose his speeches need to be understood as histrionic, right?

Also, Hamas faction of the Palestinians as “officially dedicated to Israel’s destruction.” http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/ 2009/01/03/

Can you say this is propaganda?

~~~~

Yep, shenonymous, that’s EXACTLY what it is. PROPAGANDA. Guess what else? This very same propaganda has been floating on the Arabian Winds for way longer than Ahmadinejad has been alive.

What’s more, this same rhetoric propaganda that you are so passionately ‘conditioned’ by, has an Israeli version as well.

It’s folklore. Now just this morning I was watching several foreign ministers talking at moderated session of the World Economic Forum taking place at Davos. NOW! TODAY! REAL TIME REALITY!!

Check it out. You could use the update.

(I think c-span will cover it live for the duration, but hopefully there will be repeats of this session on CNN.)

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

Your viciousness is wonderful Robert.  How many other ways can you denigrate me?  I assure you I have terrific nights’ sleep. How about you?  Can’t you say anything worse. I’m waiting for it.  And you think you can patronizingly pontificate for everyone.  Are you today’s spokesperson for the terrorist gang bangers that have hijacked the forums?  Your name calling is remindful of the playground of the infantile.  You would shut up anyone who does not agree with your depraved small view of the world.  Maybe your apoplexy will do you in soon.  You are sounding more and more hysterical with your attack on me.  It is almost pathetic.  Must be I’ve been able to shatter your arrogance, and directly hit a nerve. Anyone who dares to call you out is an Islamophobic bigot.  You attack my character because you have no way to argue intelligently.  You have no argument.  You don’t even know what it means to argue, resorting to bashing.  You haven’t the foggiest notion what freedom of speech is about.  Okay but you cannot answer one of my questions as a reasonable thinking man.  Sputter all you want. That is what you will remain a sputtering name caller.  AND FANATICAL ISLAMISTS CANNOT TOLERATE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment

November 1, 2005 a Palestinian responded to Ahmadinejad’s call for the destruction of Israel. http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000402.htm
Among other things, the Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said:  “We have recognized the state of Israel and we are pursuing a peace process with Israel, and ... we do not accept the statements of the president of Iran,” Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said. “This is unacceptable.”

It is not secret that Ahmadinejad frequently calls for “wiping off the map,” of Israel, he has spoken this on television.  It doesn’t need made up.  I suppose his speeches need to be understood as histrionic, right?

Also, Hamas faction of the Palestinians as “officially dedicated to Israel’s destruction.” http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/01/03/

Can you say this is propaganda?

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By Robert, February 1, 2009 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, February 1 at 8:12 am #

“There are more of us who decry this latest crime against humanity than those who defend it.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~

PH…You are quite correct with the above. I think that more people are breaking away & detaching themselves from Israel/zionism’s Apartheid propaganda. The Internet is the catalyst here. For so long the AIPAC controlled MSM have had, and they still do, a suffocating grip on the news regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The MSM news has been almost always favorable to Israel. AIPAC made sure of that. Bob Simon from 60 Minutes is catching some flack over the airing piece regarding Israel & its brutal IDF occupation of the Palestinians.

That said…your efforts to convince an arrogant fanatic, dilusional, who is so engulfed with trying to prove that she is the “PhD, PhD…know it all” mentality and that she thinks we are unimportant, small minds, terrorists and the rest of her pure garbage. There is NO cure for this ailment. ITS A TYPE OF BRAINWASHING & A MIND INFECTION!

It looks like she has been up pratically all night or way before the crack of dawn researching for her posts. Her zionist posture, thought process & colors are truly out now.

What a damn nut basket! I swear that her posts exhibit some Bi-Polar symptoms. She is beligerent, shrewd, and very sneaky and totally egocentric. She does NOT seem that she has any feelings for fairness or simple humanity. She seems to care ONLY for advancing that career.

May be she should send her resume with copies of her posts from TD to Mark Regev, AIPAC, or Alan Dershowitz… surely someone will help her advance her “sacred” career. AIPAC may be able to help her run for a congress person…with that pro-Israeli / zionism position, anything is possible.

If this Islamophobic bigot is teaching any “art/craft” history classes, she should let those Mid-East/Arabs/Moslem students know her position/view from day one. This way they’ll have a chance to transfer to another class.

ONE CANNOT REASON WITH FANATIC ZIONISTS!

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 11:29 am Link to this comment

Israel has had a constant blockade against Gaza for some time, which is an act of war.

Steal my land, kill my family and relatives, cut off my food and water and I will be shooting at you too. 

Israel is currently stuck with their own “republicans” and I hope a better, more pacifist, humane government is voted in for all concerned.  For if Israel continues down this road the few friends it has will flee the shitstorm comming.

The Israel being “wiped off the map” propaganda parrotted by the likes of Fox, Limbach and those other shining examples of objective journalism was disproved along time ago.

http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 11:22 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, About the link you just provided, I agree with you and the reporter emphatically.  I watched the rally in NYC as well and it is appalling but those Jews are full of fear, it was obvious.  They have the right of free-speech regardless of the hatred and fear in their speech.  The fact that politicians subsidized that rally is worse and they need to be sued by the Muslim community.  Things need to be defined.  If the Muslim community had a rally they could say just as awful things about Israel and they would have the right to do so without duress.  But they didn’t, did they?  Why?  I’ve said and asked this before but nobody can answer.  Freedom of speech is the most sacred freedom had by Americans.

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Free speach means getting your ass kicked in some countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3VT4r787U8&eurl=http://whatreallyhappened.com/

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

PH It is not so moot, the fact that Gaza may be one of the most densely populated areas on earth! Why does Hamas launch rockets from there knowing it is one of the most densely populated areas on earth?  Did you allow me that no brainer question on purpose?  for doesn’t that make it an evil deed? Maybe they ought to have fired their rockets from Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon in cooperation with Hezbollah, or Egypt, oh I forgot, those nations are not actually in conflict with Israel.  Or why not get Iran to help them launch even better longer ranged rockets and mortars?  They can’t get the Iranis to do it?  I mean the Iranis are always talking up a storm about how Israel needs to be destroyed.  Okay, we will let it go.  I see we are not going to get anywhere with that one.  But my question stands of why Hamas knowingly launched an attack from one of the most densely populated areas on earth?  So can it really be moot?  Tell all 1300 dead Palestinians it was moot.

Okay, looking at the maps presented on TomDispatch.com it looks awfully like Palestinians had a lot of land offered regardless of how broken up it was or security barriered.  Hmmm Seems like Israel offered a lot.  Once the Palestinians had their land and relations settled down, and proved they no longer were a threat, they could change the wall situation.  So the complaint that it would be a bedroom community is weak because what were they expecting?  Tel Aviv?  There doesn’t seem to be any point to the maps really.  It didn’t happen.  Were relations ever normalized, probably never possible but let us speculate anyway, the labyrinthine road situation might be fixed.  As it is, Israel was and still is paranoid about the possible ease of attack by suicide bombers or other launches of hostility and they have history to show their fears are not unwarranted.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 1, 2009 at 11:00 am Link to this comment

The following is courtesy of “eileen fleming” posting under another thread at Truthdig, under the title “When We Stop Caring About Civilian Deaths During Wartime?!

It includes the beautiful lyrics of a man with a heart, Michael Heart, who understands the legitimate resistance of the Palestinians in not “going down” in face of Israeli terrorism!
==============================================
Lyrics by Michael Heart

“A blinding flash of white light
Lit up the sky over Gaza tonight
People running for cover
Not knowing whether they’re dead or alive

They came with their tanks and their planes
With ravaging fiery flames
And nothing remains
Just a voice rising up in the smoky haze

We will not go down
In the night, without a fight
You can burn up our mosques and our homes and our schools
But our spirit will never die
We will not go down
In Gaza tonight

Women and children alike
Murdered and massacred night after night
While the so-called leaders of countries afar
Debated on who’s wrong or right

But their powerless words were in vain
And the bombs fell down like acid rain
But through the tears and the blood and the pain
You can still hear that voice through the smoky haze

We will not go down
In the night, without a fight
You can burn up our mosques and our homes and our schools
But our spirit will never die
We will not go down
In Gaza tonight.”

Education is The Way to Compassion; Compassion is The Way to Change and;

“HOPE has two children. The first is ANGER at the way things are. The second is COURAGE to DO SOMETHING about it.”-St. Augustine

Do Something:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/


Eileen Fleming, Author,
Founder, Senior Correspondent WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Producer “30 Minutes With Vanunu” and “13 Minutes with Vanunu”

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Israel has been censured by the U.N. dozens of times by their heavy handed tactics and have no regard for world opinion.

As has been brought out by many, Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, so the point of Hamas using their support base as human shields is moot. 

Palestians hold deed to many of the properties Israel now occupies and should not have to relocate once again, it is not only my opinion they get out of Palestine but U.N. resolution 242.

I could give a fig about Hamas and I believe many of their tactics are self defeating but they are the elected government and if they weren’t doing the fighting on behalf of the Palestinian people someone else would be.

Israels and its supporters continual paranoia is the only basis I see for the Pro arguements here and elsewhere.  Not a day goes by that those supporters make the false arguements about Israel being the Islamist deterent, defending against being wiped out, they are “terrorists” etc. yada yada. Alot of crystal balls out there.

If you have followed recent history since Israel first landed an invasion of hundreds of thousands against Palestine of largely non-semitic europeans you will realize that the Arabs suck at fighting and armed conflict.  They fight against each other far more than they do Israel.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry: There are more of us who decry this latest crime against humanity than those who defend it.  Undoubtedly you are right. 

I have not once defended Israel’s pounding the Palestinians, but I have openly blamed Hamas’ use of civilian shields that they themselves have boasted about.  What you say is moot.  The elected leaders who are up for re-election know what I say is true and I will repeat it:  Israel represents the only deterrent, THE ONLY DETERRENT, to a complete take over by the Islamist of the Middle East.  Yes Israel will be censored and they ought to be (DID YOU READ THAT? Shenonymous says they ought to be censored!  She has said over and over that the Palestinians got pulverized and horribly attacked.  War is ugly!).

Nevertheless, Israel will simply provide argument that they have been targeted by Hamas for decades and they simply are not going to take it any longer. Everyone faults Israel.  Would there have been no criticism had they not retaliated so forcefully?  No I do not believe the clamor would have been less.  The terrorists are sly and shrewd.

It is my litany that there is no solution, no one-state nor two-state.  Israel is not going to move.  I think Hamas has destroyed the Palestinians.  So the Palestinians have to be moved.  The Arab empire has plenty of land to donate and obviously money as well.  Don’t you ever ask yourself why the Arab empire has never helped Palestinians?  The fundamental problem has been 60 miserable years of Arab thumbscrew policy aimed at keeping the Palestinians as stateless vulnerable refugees in order to pressure Israel. The Palestinians have been the scapegoats. 

Did you know, the Arab League actually wrote and enforced special laws 60 years ago, 60 year ago mind you, regarding Palestinians that all Arab countries were pressured, forced to abide by?  Arab countries were compelled to prevent any, ANY, Palestinian from being assimilated. Even if a Palestinian married a citizen of an Arab country, that Palestinian could not become a citizen of his or her spouse’s country. A Palestinian can be born, live and die in an Arab country, but never gain its citizenship.  What do you think about that?  It is unconscionable.  It is vile and self-serving.

They are frightened out of their wits that their own Islamic people will kill them let alone the Israelis who would retaliate and they know Israel will always respond.  The Palestinians don’t realize they are slowly being killed by their own kind by allowing Hamas to pick wars with Israel and letting the worse of the wars befall themselves.  The Palestinians know the power of Israel, small as it is.  It is a dot on the map of the Muslim world.

Also, let’s hear it for free-speech.

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 9:12 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, these countries leaders, unless diebolded into office, have to contend with getting reelected.  Right now photos of the latest Israeli action against the Palestinians are circulating the globe and opinion (not yours) is being formed and pressure applied to the various governments.

Israeli contacts in the worldwide press can go only so far and the Israeli JIDF hasn’t completedly overwhelmed the Internet yet but they do barrage spam the peoples representatives daily.

There are more of us who decry this latest crime against humanity than those who defend it.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Yeah, but PatrickHenry, they have not broken relations with Israel.  A slap on the hand, well we have all had that from our favorite Catholic School nun.  So what if they have relations with Iran.  They are in bed with Israel!  Why do you think that is?  Venture a guess.  My guess is that Israel represents the only, THE ONLY, deterrent to a full take over of the Middle East by Islamists.  Get a grip.

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, February 1 at 10:47 am #

Actually the Israeli government has OK relations with some of the governments you named, there are rising calls by the people who elect those governments in those nations to demand an end to the persecution of the Palestinians.

Most all those countries you mentioned also have contracts and allainces with Iran as well.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 8:47 am Link to this comment

Apparently PH, Israel is not going at it alone much as you and the rest of your gang raping cronies wish it to be.  They have the US to rely on first and foremost because Israel represents the only spot in the Arab-Islamic empire with which to watch the terrorist aggressions of the MiddleEast. Look at my map, is it right from The Muslim World site at http://btw.imb.org/news_map.asp

Small fact, by the way, countries with which Israel has excellent relations: Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, South Korea, the United States, and also the European Union and NATO.  In addition, there is a long list of ex-Soviet bloc states which astutely understand the difference between a democratic state defending itself and a bunch of ideologically driven, dictatorship-worshipping terrorists. They include the new EU chair, the Czech Republic, and a dozen others, of which Azerbaijan, Georgia, Lithuania, Poland, can stand as examples. And last but not least most of sub-Saharan Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

Countries with which Israel has good relations: China, Russia, and Turkey.

Non-Muslim, countries with which Israel has bad relations: Venezuela, North Korea, Norway, Spain, and Sweden. Would you like to name others?  The slate is still open. 

Obviously those on this forum, and others on which they appear, support terrorism more than the free world.  Well I am here to watch you, even if I am the only voice.  Let’s hear it for free speech!

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By PatrickHenry, February 1, 2009 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

The world is getting tired of the continuing Israeli arrogance and go it alone attitude. 

Boycott of their limited exports hasn’t caught Israel’s attention or the demonstrations against what they are doing in the various capitols of the world, many by jews.

Cutting off the U.S. welfare and enacting an embargo against Israel as they are doing against the Palestinians would do the trick.  If only our compromised government could see this as being in everyones best interest.

Cyrena’s link to TomDispatch included a very good map that even Shenonymous would love showing the continual infestation of Israeli settlements on the west bank.  If peace is to be achieved here they got to go.

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By Shenonymous, February 1, 2009 at 4:41 am Link to this comment

I am enjoying the gang banging.  Thank you all for your small minds, and entertainment, and the fierce fucking I’m getting for having an opinion different than yours.  I look forward to your sputtering and head twirling posts to see the gyrations you go through to try to ruin and defeat me.  I understand now even better what it might be like to be a Jew.  Of my comments, you only can see the words you wish to see.  Fine.  You can live with your petrifying prejudices and ugly minds.  I don’t care.  I am quite comfortable with what I believe, what I know, and who I am.  Your attacks on my character is telling of YOUR base character.

Of course I saw the Sandy Tolan article before you posted it, cyrena.  Surely you don’t think you are the only one who reads TomDispatch.  Who is Sandy Tolan to tell the US government what to do?  Do you think George Mitchell even reads TomDispatch?  That he goes to bed at night saying “George Mitchell, you have got to put Sandy Tolan’s five questions on a few 3x5 cards, keep them in my pocket and damn it, answer them, personally.”  Maybe she should make an appointment to SEE George Mitchell.  They could talk over a cup of tea.  Do you think she is a better historian than George Mitchell?  That she has all the information about the world that he has?  It is a delusion my gang bangers also have.  You seem to think the new administration is ignorant and stupid and doesn’t have the facts that Ms. Tolan has.  That is the main problem with the journalists, and bloggers. They think they can with a few words control the government.  It is obvious Islamist terrorists have taken over this forum.  If anyone should feel shame, it is the terrorists for putting their own people in the way of death.  The world can see their need to keep procreating in really big numbers so they have more children to be slaughtered.  But let’s do give her the freedom of speech and you too.  Too bad this is not a freedom given to the Muslims of the world. 

See the problem of the 20,000 Jews in the West Bank is a red herring.  Why?  Because the Palestinians have said without a two-state solution, they would force the Israelis to make them Israeli citizens.  Well, soooo.  They obviously don’t have a problem living with Jews.  Now of course the Jews are smart bagels (I really like that term smart bagels), and know if they did that, why the ever increasing population of Palestinians, they would soon take over Israel.  That is another way to seize and destroy the Israelis.  There is no solution to that specific problem.  The Arab empire has to make a new country for the Palestinians.  They certainly have the land for it.  Just take a look at the map. http://btw.imb.org/news_map.asp

We know and everybody in the world knows, and particularly the Arabs, why the US supports the absolutely strategically located Israel.  Get a grip.

It is very telling that on Truthdig’s Home page there is no longer any interest in Gaza, the Israelis or Hamas.  The seriousness of the situation was only good for an article and has been archived.

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By Tony Wicher, February 1, 2009 at 12:17 am Link to this comment

Fadel,

Indeed, Shenonymous does not seem to be honest about where she is really coming from. I understand your exasperation.

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By cyrena, January 31, 2009 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2

Shenonymous

Just click and read. Lots of good stuff here, and a definite advantage for those who don’t have time to catch up with years of history.

Tom Dispatch
posted 2009-01-26

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175026/sandy_tolan_five_questions_for_george_mitchell

Tomgram: Sandy Tolan, Five Questions for George Mitchell

[Note for readers: Whatever you do, don’t miss Part 1 of the TomDispatch excerpt, posted Saturday, from the stunning graphic memoir, Waltz with Bashir, the book version of the Oscar-nominated Israeli animated film of the same name. It’s a document for our time.]

In the latest issue of the Nation magazine, Jonathan Schell has written a piece, “Obama and the Return of the Real”, that should stand as a manifesto for sanity in our times. In it, he considers just how self-inflicted our present catastrophic situation, from economic meltdown to foreign policy disaster, actually is. Of Iraq, for instance, he comments, “The invasion… was the American empire’s self-inflicted wound—a disaster of choice, so to speak. All we had to do to escape it was not to do it. Here and elsewhere, the work of our own hands rises up to strike us.” He also considers the unnerving way in which we have “been cannibalizing the future to provision the present. Though we are not killing our children directly, we are spending their money, eating their food, cutting down their cherry orchards.”

In the Bush era, no country was more eager to follow our president into its own regional version of a “global war on terror” than Israel, which has, in a sense, been a U.S. Mini-Me for eight long years. As David Bromwich wrote recently at the Huffington Post, the two countries in these years “shared a fantasy. The fantasy says that the Arabs understand only force. It says we can end terrorism by killing all the terrorists. The neighbors of the terrorists will be overawed. No new terrorists will be created.”

In the process, Israel’s leaders have mirrored the Bush administration in bringing destruction to others as well as in the category of self-inflicted wounds, of which the most recent was certainly their December-January offensive in Gaza. Forgetting the morality of essentially attacking a civilian population in that heavily populated, heavily urbanized strip of land and purposely destroying civilian infrastructure, it was, in Schell’s terms, one of those utterly unnecessary decisions—taken up in part for domestic political reasons, in part simply because Israel’s leaders seem to have seen the moment before the Obama administration’s arrival as a bizarre window of opportunity. Undoubtedly, their decision to invade Gaza will, in retrospect, be seen as a rash blunder and an act of cannibalizing the future.

You can feel the shame over Israel’s most recent destructive acts spreading in the Jewish community (or rather communities) here and among policy thinkers more generally, further eroding support for the present Israeli government and perhaps even opening the way for some new thinking and new policies. The recent offensive also seeded years, even decades, of further bitterness into an already desperate, explosive situation—and all for nothing, or less than nothing. It’s certainly time for Israel to end its version of the Bush years. In the meantime, Sandy Tolan—author of The Lemon Tree: An Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East, an indispensable book that traces the tragedy at the heart of the Middle East through two families and a single house—suggests why the old thinking may be at a dead end and what some of the questions leading to a new policy might be. Tom

continues at part 2

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By cyrena, January 31, 2009 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2

Mitchell’s Challenge
After Gaza, Five Questions about Palestinian and Israeli Realities

By Sandy Tolan

“The deep irony of the Israeli-Palestinian “peace process” first struck me in 1996 as I was driving through the West Bank from Hebron to Jerusalem. I had turned off the potholed main road that passed through Palestinian villages and refugee camps and headed west into Kiryat Arba. In that Israeli settlement, admirers had erected a graveside monument to Baruch Goldstein, the settler from Brooklyn who, in 1994, gunned down 29 Palestinians in Hebron’s Cave of the Patriarchs. From the settlement’s creepy candlelit shrine I cut north, and soon found myself on a quiet, smooth-as-glass “bypass” road. The road, I would learn, was one of many under construction by Israel, alongside new and expanding settlements, that would allow settlers to travel easily from their West Bank islands to the “mainland” of the Jewish state.

How strange, I thought naively, as I traveled that lonely road toward Jerusalem on a gray winter afternoon: Isn’t this part of the land that Palestinians would need for their state? Why, then, in the middle of the Oslo peace process—barely three years after the famous Rabin-Arafat handshake on the White House lawn—would Israeli officials authorize construction that was visibly cementing the settlers’ presence into Palestinian land? “

“Twelve years later, these post-Oslo “facts on the ground” have all but doomed the traditional path to peace. The two-state solution, the central focus of efforts to end the tragedy of Israel and Palestine since 1967, has been undermined by the thickening reality of red-roofed Israeli settlements, military outposts, surveillance towers, and the web of settlers-only roads that whisk Israelis from their West Bank dwellings to prayer in Jerusalem’s Old City, or to shopping and the beach in Tel Aviv. So dense had the Israeli West Bank presence become by 2009, so fragmented is Palestinian life—both physically and politically—that it now requires death-defying mental gymnastics to imagine how a two-state solution could ever be implemented. “
Keep Reading..

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175026/sandy_tolan_five_questions_for_george_mitchell

Five Questions for an Israeli-Palestinian Future
Former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell, Obama’s respected, fair-minded Middle East envoy, will bring his considerable skills to bear on this ever more daunting problem. It is Mitchell’s widely acknowledged fairness that has prompted jaw-dropping comments from some hardline pro-Israeli lobbyists and Christian Zionists who became accustomed, under George W. Bush, to getting whatever they wanted; this in itself is a signal that Obama’s approach to the region may represent a genuine break from the past.

To an honest witness like Mitchell, for whom the facts and the aspirations of both peoples seem to actually matter, it may become quickly evident that the traditional two-state solution is now on life support. Seeing that, he would do well to keep an open mind and be prepared to ask some hard questions. Among them might be:

1. What does the unending march of Israeli construction actually mean for a “viable, contiguous” Palestine?”

It’s just getting good. Go to the link for the rest of the questions, and all of the other very excellent references sited. Hopefully they will make ya think about all the stuff you just didn’t know.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175026/sandy_tolan_five_questions_for_george_mitchell

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 31, 2009 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, January 31 at 5:28 pm #

“Shenonymous:
I wonder how many other posters have grown as weary, and wary, of your endless effete, pedantic ramblings as I.  For weeks now, we have read your pseudo-academic posts which are thin cover for your endorsement of Israeli atrocities, cleverly, but patently steering away from the burden of war crimes accrued by Israel.”
===================================
As I clicked on one unspecific Truthdig Report bookmark, I was surprised that I linked to this very old thread which I stopped visiting for sometime, being disgusted by the name of one particular bigot who hijacked it.

Then driven by curiosity, I scrolled down to view some of the names still posting. And the Tony Wicher’s post caught my attention. After reading it I soon realized what has been going on and who has been keeping this thread going on through her irrational rants, bigotry and hate. And I was delighted that Tony Wicher managed in few concise words to give this nut mental case a peace of his mind, which actually expresses the feelings of so many of Truthdig’s posters.

Thank you Tony Wicher for summing the courage to give this sad soul a wake up call! Your post should serve as a good conclusion to this thread, artificially prolonged at the whim of one nut fanatic spoiler!

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By Robert, January 31, 2009 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

KUHN: When Israel expelled Palestinians:

What if it was San Diego and Tijuana instead?
Randall Kuhn

Wednesday, January 14, 2009

“In the wake of Israel’s invasion of Gaza, Israel’s Defense Minister Ehud Barak made this analogy: “Think about what would happen if for seven years rockets had been fired at San Diego, California from Tijuana, Mexico.”

Within hours scores of American pundits and politicians had mimicked Barak’s comparisons almost verbatim. In fact, in this very paper on January 9 House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and House Minority Whip Eric Cantor ended an opinion piece by saying “America would never sit still if terrorists were lobbing missiles across our border into Texas or Montana.” But let’s see if our political and pundit class can parrot this analogy.

Think about what would happen if San Diego expelled most of its Hispanic, African American, Asian American, and Native American population, about 48 percent of the total, and forcibly relocated them to Tijuana? Not just immigrants, but even those who have lived in this country for many generations. Not just the unemployed or the criminals or the America haters, but the school teachers, the small business owners, the soldiers, even the baseball players.

What if we established government and faith-based agencies to help move white people into their former homes? And what if we razed hundreds of their homes in rural areas and, with the aid of charitable donations from people in the United States and abroad, planted forests on their former towns, creating nature preserves for whites to enjoy? Sounds pretty awful, huh? I may be called anti-Semitic for speaking this truth. Well, I’m Jewish and the scenario above is what many prominent Israeli scholars say happened when Israel expelled Palestinians from southern Israel and forced them into Gaza. But this analogy is just getting started.

What if the United Nations kept San Diego’s discarded minorities in crowded, festering camps in Tijuana for 19 years? Then, the United States invaded Mexico, occupied Tijuana and began to build large housing developments in Tijuana where only whites could live.

And what if the United States built a network of highways connecting American citizens of Tijuana to the United States? And checkpoints, not just between Mexico and the United States but also around every neighborhood of Tijuana? What if we required every Tijuana resident, refugee or native, to show an ID card to the U.S. military on demand? What if thousands of Tijuana residents lost their homes, their jobs, their businesses, their children, their sense of self worth to this occupation? Would you be surprised to hear of a protest movement in Tijuana that sometimes became violent and hateful? Okay, now for the unbelievable part.

Think about what would happen if, after expelling all of the minorities from San Diego to Tijuana and subjecting them to 40 years of brutal military occupation, we just left Tijuana, removing all the white settlers and the soldiers? Only instead of giving them their freedom, we built a 20-foot tall electrified wall around Tijuana? Not just on the sides bordering San Diego, but on all the Mexico crossings as well. What if we set up 50-foot high watchtowers with machine gun batteries, and told them that if they stood within 100 yards of this wall we would shoot them dead on sight? And four out of every five days we kept every single one of those border crossings closed, not even allowing food, clothing, or medicine to arrive. And we patrolled their air space with our state-of-the-art fighter jets but didn’t allow them so much as a crop duster. And we patrolled their waters with destroyers and submarines, but didn’t even allow them to fish.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/14/when-israel-expelled-palestinians/

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By Robert, January 31, 2009 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

Robert Fisk’s World: When did we stop caring about civilian deaths during wartime?

The mere monitoring of bloody conflict assumes precedence over human suffering

Saturday, 31 January 2009  

“I wonder if we are “normalising” war. It’s not just that Israel has yet again got away with the killing of hundreds of children in Gaza.
And after its own foreign minister said that Israel’s army had been allowed to “go wild” there, it seems to bear out my own contention that the Israeli “Defence Force” is as much a rabble as all the other armies in the region. But we seem to have lost the sense of immorality that should accompany conflict and violence. The BBC’s refusal to handle an advertisement for Palestinian aid was highly instructive. It was the BBC’s “impartiality” that might be called into question. In other words, the protection of an institution was more important than the lives of children. War was a spectator sport whose careful monitoring – rather like a football match, even though the Middle East is a bloody tragedy – assumed precedence over human suffering.

I’m not sure where all this started. No one doubts that the Second World War was a bloodbath of titanic proportions, but after that conflict we put in place all kinds of laws to protect human beings. The International Red Cross protocols, the United Nations – along with the all-powerful Security Council and the much ridiculed General Assembly – and the European Union were created to end large-scale conflict. And yes, I know there was Korea (under a UN flag!) and then there was Vietnam, but after the US withdrawal from Saigon, there was a sense that “we” didn’t do wars any more. Foreigners could commit atrocities en masse – Cambodia comes to mind – but we superior Westerners were exempt. We didn’t behave like that. Low-intensity warfare in Northern Ireland, perhaps. And the Israeli-Arab conflict would grind away. But there was a feeling that My Lai had been put behind us. Civilians were once again sacred in the West.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos-world-when-did-we-stop-caring-about-civilian-deaths-during-wartime-1521708.html

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By Shenonymous, January 31, 2009 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

There is one Latin caution I have tatooed on the inside of my forehead!  Illegitimus Non Carborundum, translation:  Don’t Let the Bastards Grind You Down. 

Yes it does look like Obama is shifting his weight toward the Muslim world.  So I guess all those Jews he put into his Administrative Cabinet can all go to Allah’s hell.  Well that honeymoon will not last very long, regardless of what any anti-Jew is saying. 

You are absolutely right, cyrena, I don’t know how you feel about Israel or Obama exactly. But it is obvious how you feel about the Arab world.  Only you are mentioning Islam these days.

And I see that my unpopular view is bringing them out of the woodwork!  I am not here to win a popularity contest.  Which is a neutralizing view but those with tunnel vision cannot see beyond the end of their nose.  Seems to me Israel is taking all the heat for a non-reflective Arab world.  Let’s make that 90 years of unreflection and the Palestinians get the brunt of the Big Arab Shunt (I will just call that the BAS).

It is probably quite true that Israel doesn’t need a handout from the US. It is more likely just the other way around.  The US needs Israel as a mainstay in the Middle East.  For without israel, the Arabs would have the entire region sewed up to do with what they want in terms of imperialism and putting the thumb screws to the West.  Just take a look at the map.  Whatsamatta don’t wanna look at da map?

Wicher you can go stand in the corner with Chamisery.  Do you have any idea what is the real issue?

I say it is freedom of speech.  And it is obvious there are those who would prevent my speech or anybody else who brings rationality to the forum about the real reason why people don’t speak up.  Somebody said the other day the Arabs don’t help the Palestinians because they are afraid they will be nuked.  That is about as preposterous a reason as could be invented.  Everybody knows Israel will never use their nuclear weapons because it will destroy their own country, the fall out alone with the winds from the east will just dump any radiation right back on Israel.  So that is truly a weak answer.  The poor Palestinians are petrified to speak out because they will be killed by their own countrymen, Hamas.  It is truly the worst situation.  Why people don’t speak up is always because of some fear. If you want to get this forum back on track, start talking about freedom of speech and why so few speak up for Gaza!

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By Robert, January 31, 2009 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

Gaza Invasion: Powered By The U.S.

Taxpayers are spending over $1 billion to send refined fuel to the Israeli military—at a time when Israel doesn’t need it and America does.

By Robert Bryce

Editor’s note: Generous support for this article was provided by the Investigative Fund at the Nation Institute.

“January 31, 2009 “Salon” Jan. 16, 2009—- Israel’s current air and ground assault on the Gaza Strip has left about 1,000 Palestinians dead, including 400 women and children. Several thousand people have been wounded and dozens of buildings have been destroyed. An estimated 90,000 Gazans have abandoned their homes. Israel’s campaign in Gaza, which began more than two weeks ago, has been denounced by the Red Cross, multiple Arab and European countries, and agencies from the United Nations. Demonstrations in Pakistan and elsewhere have been held to denounce America’s support for Israel.

It’s well known that the U.S. supplies the Israelis with much of their military hardware. Over the past few decades, the U.S. has provided about $53 billion in military aid to Israel. What’s not well known is that since 2004, U.S. taxpayers have paid to supply over 500 million gallons of refined oil products—worth about $1.1 billion –- to the Israeli military. While a handful of countries get motor fuel from the U.S., they receive only a fraction of the fuel that Israel does—fuel now being used by Israeli fighter jets, helicopters and tanks to battle Hamas.

According to documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, between 2004 and 2007 the U.S. Defense Department gave $818 million worth of fuel to the Israeli military. The total amount was 479 million gallons, the equivalent of about 66 gallons per Israeli citizen. In 2008, an additional $280 million in fuel was given to the Israeli military, again at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. The U.S. has even paid the cost of shipping the fuel from U.S. refineries to ports in Israel.

In 2008, the fuel shipped to Israel from U.S. refineries accounted for 2 percent of Israel’s $13.3 billion defense budget. Publicly available data shows that about 2 percent of the U.S. Defense Department’s budget is also spent on oil. A senior analyst at the Pentagon, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the press, says the Israel Defense Force’s fuel use is most likely similar to that of the U.S. Defense Department. In other words, the Israeli military is spending about the same percentage of its defense budget on oil as the U.S. is. Therefore it’s possible that the U.S. is providing most, or perhaps even all, of the Israeli military’s fuel needs.

What’s more, Israel does not need the U.S. handout. Its own recently privatized refineries, located at Haifa and Ashdod, could supply all of the fuel needed by the Israeli military. Those same refineries are now producing and selling jet fuel and other refined products on the open market. But rather than purchase lower-cost jet fuel from its own refineries, the Israeli military is using U.S. taxpayer money to buy and ship large quantities of fuel from U.S. refineries.

The Israeli government obtains the fuel through the Defense Department’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program, and pays for the fuel and the shipping with funds granted to it through Foreign Military Financing (FMF), another Defense Department program. (In 2008, Congress earmarked $2.4 billion in FMF money for Israel, and $2.5 billion for 2009.) The dimensions of the FMS fuel program are virtually unknown among America’s top experts on Middle East policy. For his part, the Pentagon analyst was surprised to learn that FMS money was even being used to supply fuel to Israel. “That’s not the purpose of the program,” he says. “FMS was designed to allow U.S. weapons makers to sell their goods to foreign countries. The idea that fuel is being bought under FMS is very, very odd.”


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21868.htm

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By Tony Wicher, January 31, 2009 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment

RE CHAMISA, January 30 at 4:40 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymous:
I wonder how many other posters have grown as weary, and wary, of your endless effete, pedantic ramblings as I.  For weeks now,
we have read your pseudo-academic posts which are thin cover for your endorsement of Israeli atrocities, cleverly, but patently steering away from the burden of war crimes accrued by Israel.

  x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

CHAMISA

I agree, both Shenonymous and OzarkMichael appear to be on a mission of distraction from the real issues. This being the case, I suggest wasting no further time responding to them.

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By cyrena, January 31, 2009 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment

“I shall ask the question again, how do you cyrena, justify Obama’s attitude toward Israel with your attitude towards Israel?”

~~~
1 of 3
Shenonymous,

I missed this question if you asked it before. It’s just as well, since I wouldn’t answer it. I have no idea what YOU think Obama’s “attitude” toward Israel is, but I sure have an idea, and it’s not the same as yours.

So exactly ‘which’ “attitude” of Obama’s are you using for a reference? Is it when he said in an address over 2 years ago that “NOBODY has suffered more than the Palestinians?” Oh no, it probably wasn’t THAT ‘attitude’ since you probably didn’t know he said that, eh? Maybe because the ‘media’ somehow quickly revised that? Oh no, how could THAT be? Or, was it a year or so later, when he also admitted, (though a major back off from before) that he didn’t agree with “Everything Israel does”. Oh, you missed that too, eh? Well, that same ‘media’ didn’t want ya’ll to hear that either. Then there’s his deplorable speech to AIPAC, and that has some ‘intrigue’ to it as well, but I don’t have time to find the link to that or any of the others right now. It’s not a priority, because Obama is a politician, and I take anything he SAID about Israel BEFORE he became President with a grain of salt on a lemon of real politick. I’m paying far more attention to what he DOES about Israel, and he’s got that easily covered.

He’s got it easily covered because the LAWS of the International Community, (that includes US by-the-way, even if it doesn’t quite seem like it after the past 8 years) back him up. All President Obama has to do is bring the USA back into compliance with International Law and the Geneva Conventions, and that will ‘fix’ Israel. Based on what I’m seeing so far, he’s doing a fine job. (better than I could, since I just don’t have his kind of patience or political finesse.) In fact, if it was ME? I would have cut Israel’s chains off of US on day one. No more money, and no more political protection from the USA. Let the rest of the world have at ‘em. Let’s start slapping some sanctions on Israel like we do to every other nation state that violates some provision of the International Laws, and sometimes EVEN WHEN THEY DON’T. (think Iran). So, it’s a good thing you all elected him, and not me, because we’d all be in the throes of the last days by now. (‘course TAO says we already are, and I do wonder about that sometimes)

Anyway, Obama is the consummate politician, so I sense that he is possibly talking out of the right side of his mouth while he’s signing the documents with his left hand. But since he’s doing it in the wide open view of the world, it’s up to the rest of us to figure it out.

I can’t find the video of this Interview that Obama did last week with the Arab press. I have it somewhere, but I’ll have to dig. Still, this may lead you to it. It was an important conversation.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/obama-tells-arab-world-us-will-start-by-listening/
This one is less encouraging, but what can I say. Note that it is from haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060074.html

You also have no idea how I feel about Israel, despite all of the ink spilled here, because you’re still in your Islamic Law thing, which of course has nothing to do with the Crimes Against Humanity committed by Israel over the past 6 decades. So while YOU concentrate on so-called Arab Islamic ‘terrorists’ as the reason for all that’s wrong in the Middle East, I’ve already examined the world record, and the history of the conflicts that Israel has had with the ENTIRE Middle East, since as far back as the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the British White Paper of 1939. I’ve ADDITIONALLY studied the multitude of information from the plethora of sources available, on the HISTORY of this specific conflict in The Occupied Territories.

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By cyrena, January 31, 2009 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

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So keep in mind, (if you can) that my ‘attitude’ toward Israel is based on that ‘acquired knowledge’ in conjunction with the same exercise of acquiring knowledge in respect to International Law and specifically the Human Rights component of it. My ‘attitude’ is formed by my intellect, which is by nature ‘neutral’.  That’s not to say that I ignore the ‘psychology’ of it all, because at the end of the day, it is the ‘psychology’ that has created and maintains the destructive chaos. But, I know how to separate that from the REALITY, which is far more clearly defined in the Universal Laws that define how Nations and other Groups of people will get along with each other in the world.

Using just those two primary sources of acquired knowledge, (and of course some secondary stuff as well – including 3 separate trips to the region); the evidence is that the State of Israel has violated more of these laws than all the rest of the world combined, and the thing is that they CONTINUE to do so, right under the noses of the rest of the world!!

THERE IS NO WAY A RATIONAL INTELLECT CAN RECONCILE THIS IN ‘FAVOR’ OF ISRAEL.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

You cannot ignore the history that IS documented, and you can’t attach different ‘causes’ for the ultimate result –death and destruction of life all around- based on your personal biases. We ALL have these biases shenon, (or at least most people do – it tends to be human nature) but a rational person ‘adjusts’ for that in their analysis of anything. Or at least we SHOULD. Because in the end, it’s the ONLY way to get to anything OTHER than continued destruction. We HAVE to rely on REASON, and HARD COLD FACTS shenon. That’s where we have to look for the truth. We have to find it in the FACTS, which I agree can be manipulated and oh so superbly, and by ALL ‘sides’. (Your own “conditioning” is a perfect example, just as is mine.) Still, at the end of the day, the real hard cold and unbiased facts always give up the truth.

The ‘problem’ of course, is at least double if not multipronged. First, we have to dig through a whole bunch of these facts, and then they have to be analyzed against the rule book that has already been set up for those purposes. That’s if we really have ANY inclination to respect the spirit and the letter of the Law. If one doesn’t have that respect, then I’m wasting my time trying to explain this.  This can only be accomplished by professionally adept legal scholars who maintain their professional and personal integrities to call it like it is, no matter how psychologically painful it might be to those being judged. These professionals must be politically and ideologically INCORRUPTIBLE, and their only ‘bias’ must be the Law.

This is why I’ve taken such umbrage with your accusations of my ‘favor’ of Islam=Arab=Hamas=”Terrorists”, or this silliness about “Western taint”. It’s a common variety neurosis that displays juvenile type ‘me only’ mindsets, and it’s dangerous because we’re talking about serious stuff here; while you wanna play Cowboys and Indians, or Cowboys and Arabs or Cowboys and Muslims..whatever. I’m a supporter of the Rule of Law, including those that protect the rights of Human Beings. This isn’t something that we’re just making up as we go along. These Laws were carefully crafted by a World Body consensus, and for all intents and purposes, Israel has been giving US (including YOU) and the rest of the world “the extended middle finger” for over 40 years. The EVIDENCE of this fills BILLIONS of pages. (and no, I haven’t read them all – just enough to know what I’m talking about.)

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By cyrena, January 31, 2009 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment

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Last but not least, (because apparently you’ve missed this as well, and it’s the answer to your question)…I don’t ‘justify’ my attitude about anything against anybody else’s attitude about anything, INCLUDING President Obama, who I very much admire and respect. So I don’t always agree with his ideology, and that is HARDLY a secret. I just figure he still has some stuff to learn, and maybe he hasn’t had time to focus on the same kind of study that I have, in terms of this particular conflict. (Then again, I don’t think that either, because I know of his former association with the late Edward Said and the Palestinian Community in Illinois.) So, he SHOULD know, and I expect him to act in the politically appropriate manner, which he’s already kicked off.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/01/27/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4754691.shtml

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-state23-2009jan23,0,3493066.story

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N22444152.htm

And don’t forget the link(in Haartz)above. (It will have a Zionist spin on the latest massacre, even voiced by Susan Rice. – not a particularly good sign, unless we’re still reading between the lines here)

BUT, the rest of us DO know who the all time agitator is in the Middle East, and we also know WHY. You’re gonna have to get up to speed on this stuff shenon, if any of this conversation is going to have any significance to the reality of the on-going destruction that I can actually see quite clearly from my Western perch. (modern technology and all).

Here’s another link (or couple) to the current aid/assistance to Gaza, provided PRIMARILY by the ARAB World, (though some has come from Switzerland and other European nations as well) and is rotting in the desert because Israel won’t let the stuff in.
It’s a funny thing about this on-going thing.

Truthdig only just posted that story on Jan 29, and it is already off of the main page. I had to access it through the archives. Odd I think, but then not really, based on the hysteria we’re hearing from the hard core Zionists here. This is EXACTLY why Israel chased off all the world journalists. I keep telling you, abusers will go to any lengths to hide their crimes, and panic sets in when they are about to be uncovered. I don’t know why you don’t believe me, because it happens in all places where individuals and groups interact with each other in close geographical spaces.

So, desperate people do desperate things, just as caged animals do when you back them into a corner. This latest OVERKILL, planned well in advance, (6 months) is an indication of just how desperate Israel is, specifically in terms of what ‘protections’ the new US Admin will continue or NOT continue to extend.

I think they have real reason to be ‘concerned’, because time has run out on the Era of Lawlessness, and Israel has to reigned in the same way we’d have to commit a loved one to a facility once it became apparent that they were a danger to the rest of the family, or even strangers.

Anyway, here’s that link, and the ‘read more’ will get you to the full NYT page. Did you watch the recent 60 minutes interview (Jan 29th) done on the ground in the Occupied Territories? You really should see that as well. It’s what’s happening in REAL LIFE (and death) in the area. This stuff has been going on behind closed doors and out of sight of the world for over 60 years. It’s time to catch up, and to STOP it!

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20090128_israel_blocks_aid_supplies/

60 Minute Interview on the Settlement Expansion - analysis

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/28/60_minutes/

http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/188423

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By Shenonymous, January 31, 2009 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

The google map of Israel is at
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=A colored world map showing Israel.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

If interested use the little dragging hand to move the map around. 
A copy/paste error.

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