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Leaders Lie, Civilians Die, and Lessons of History Are Ignored

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Posted on Dec 29, 2008
AP photo / Hatem Moussa

A Palestinian girl wounded in an Israeli missile strike is carried into the emergency area at Shifa hospital in Gaza City.

By Robert Fisk

Editor’s note: This article was originally printed in The Independent.

We’ve got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don’t care anymore—providing we don’t offend the Israelis. It’s not clear how many of the Gaza dead are civilians, but the response of the Bush administration, not to mention the pusillanimous reaction of Gordon Brown, reaffirm for Arabs what they have known for decades: however they struggle against their antagonists, the West will take Israel’s side. As usual, the bloodbath was the fault of the Arabs—who, as we all know, only understand force.

Ever since 1948, we’ve been hearing this balderdash from the Israelis—just as Arab nationalists and then Arab Islamists have been peddling their own lies: that the Zionist “death wagon” will be overthrown, that all Jerusalem will be “liberated”. And always Mr Bush Snr or Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Jnr or Mr Blair or Mr Brown have called upon both sides to exercise “restraint”—as if the Palestinians and the Israelis both have F-18s and Merkava tanks and field artillery. Hamas’s home-made rockets have killed just 20 Israelis in eight years, but a day-long blitz by Israeli aircraft that kills almost 300 Palestinians is just par for the course.

The blood-splattering has its own routine. Yes, Hamas provoked Israel’s anger, just as Israel provoked Hamas’s anger, which was provoked by Israel, which was provoked by Hamas, which ... See what I mean? Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel bombs Hamas, Hamas fires more rockets and Israel bombs again and ... Got it? And we demand security for Israel—rightly—but overlook this massive and utterly disproportionate slaughter by Israel. It was Madeleine Albright who once said that Israel was “under siege”—as if Palestinian tanks were in the streets of Tel Aviv.

By last night, the exchange rate stood at 296 Palestinians dead for one dead Israeli. Back in 2006, it was 10 Lebanese dead for one Israeli dead. This weekend was the most inflationary exchange rate in a single day since—the 1973 Middle East War? The 1967 Six Day War? The 1956 Suez War? The 1948 Independence/Nakba War? It’s obscene, a gruesome game—which Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, unconsciously admitted when he spoke this weekend to Fox TV. “Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game,” Barak said.

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Exactly. Only the “rules” of the game don’t change. This is a further slippage on the Arab-Israeli exchanges, a percentage slide more awesome than Wall Street’s crashing shares, though of not much interest in the US which—let us remember—made the F-18s and the Hellfire missiles which the Bush administration pleads with Israel to use sparingly.

Quite a lot of the dead this weekend appear to have been Hamas members, but what is it supposed to solve? Is Hamas going to say: “Wow, this blitz is awesome— we’d better recognise the state of Israel, fall in line with the Palestinian Authority, lay down our weapons and pray we are taken prisoner and locked up indefinitely and support a new American ‘peace process’ in the Middle East!” Is that what the Israelis and the Americans and Gordon Brown think Hamas is going to do?

Yes, let’s remember Hamas’s cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel’s need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching—come to heel or we will crush you—is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians—and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.

Not a whimper from Tony Blair, the peace envoy to the Middle East who’s never been to Gaza in his current incarnation. Not a bloody word.

We hear the usual Israeli line. General Yaakov Amidror, the former head of the Israeli army’s “research and assessment division” announced that “no country in the world would allow its citizens to be made the target of rocket attacks without taking vigorous steps to defend them”. Quite so. But when the IRA were firing mortars over the border into Northern Ireland, when their guerrillas were crossing from the Republic to attack police stations and Protestants, did Britain unleash the RAF on the Irish Republic? Did the RAF bomb churches and tankers and police stations and zap 300 civilians to teach the Irish a lesson? No, it did not. Because the world would have seen it as criminal behaviour. We didn’t want to lower ourselves to the IRA’s level.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated “terrorism”. So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east—in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside?—a well-known man in a turban smiles.


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By Trithoverlies, January 9, 2009 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

Dear Omop,
Did the Arabs really own Palestine?  The answer is NO
but the Indo/European Mamalucs, Selujics, and Ottomans all of which were not and are not of Arab decent did own the land until the British took it in 1917 so even a Prime Minister can make a mistake so the truth is the Druze Arabs are apart of the Israeli Government with all the right afforded any citizen of the country of Israel so I have not yet seen any aparthied in Israel and I will repeat myself agian the Aparthied is in the west bank agianst the Palestinian Christians and in the Middle Eastern Countries that built refugee camps in 1948 and will not allow the Arabs in those camps to be apart of their governments this system has worked quite well in producing new generations of terrorist. So naturely the Middle Eastern Countries continue to hold these Arabs and their decendents in a form of bondage some 60 years after the deffeat of six Arab Armies by a Israeli defense force undermanned and out gunned.  Gee is that not a long time to be imprissoned I think so, but there has been no uproar raised about this in the news are by the liberal left. Just as NOW refusses to creat an uproar about the beating of a seventeen year old Saudi Arabian girl raped buy her exboyfriend and several of his buddies she was sentenced to recieve 100 lashes and the woman in Iran who has been sentenced to death or the teacher beaten to death in Nigeria so why the Palestinians it is because they hate the Jews and want to wipe them out. This Antisemetism has been runnig under the surfice for quite a long time and will result in the saughter of the people of the God of the Bible both Jewish and gentile belivers in the last 31/2 years called the Great Tribulation none of the end time prophecies could come about as long as there was no Israel so now there is and the Russian Goverenment is Allieing itsself with the building of a confederation of Muslim states and making them ready for the offensive prophesied in Ezekeil 38-39.  All prophecy in the Bible, (30% of the Bible infact) are in the process of being fulfilled in our times or have already been fulfilled such as the reamergance of the nation of Israel after 2500 years, and the hatred of them by just about the whole world which shows in the numbers of anti-Israel legislations in the U.N. over the last 60 Years. Why is a nation an ethinic group that was nearly wipped out between 1942-1945 so hated today? It can only bew because the Bible predicted it some 2700 years ago.

                John R. Bloxson Jr.
                  Trithoverlies.
                  “Shalome”

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By Maani, January 9, 2009 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

John:

Thank you for your kind words and prayers.  I do try to be even-handed in most matters, if only because “it takes two to tango,” and things are never as black and white as they seem.  This is particularly true in socio-politics, and even more true when we throw faith/religion into the mix.

You have my warmest regards and prayers as well.  Keep the faith, and don’t let anyone get you down.

Peace.

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By John R. Bloxson Jr, January 8, 2009 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maani,
Of all the people who get on this site you are one of the most even handed I like that you are open to look rather than believe without proofe I will continue to pray for you and thank you for the comments that show you actually care about looking for the Truth.  To many on this site have already judged Israel as being in the wrong, you have truly shown that you are willing to wait
and make Judgements only after wieghing all the facts and checking them out.
          May God Bless and keep you.
          John R Bloxson Jr.
            Trithoverlies.

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By omop, January 8, 2009 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Bloxson Jr.

You may want to read the following several times to get its full impact;

    ” Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural we have taken their country.” – David Ben Gurion, 1956,

quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99.

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By John R Bloxson Jr, January 7, 2009 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The hatred of the terorist Hamas is well known but its always Israels fault when Hamas or Hezbollah firers rockets into Israel it is Israels fault when Hamas breaks a cease fire and starts lobbing rockets into Israeli school yards in an area where 500,000 people live it is ethnic cleansing when Israel retaliates
everything wrong in the world is the fault of the Jews atleast thats what the majority on this web site believe well If tomorrow Alquada set up across the county line and started lobbing rockets into the school yards and playgrounds where your children play while using Mosque and schools in the other county as cover and the authorities there will do nothing about it what would you do go to the nagotiating table are stop the rocketeers and the morter men. the truth is that the Palestinians voted for a terrorist organization to run things giving them card blanche this is the facts you so conveiniently keep forgetting Hamas is not about religious problems it is about a hatred by Hamas that wants to drive every jew into the sea and kill every woman and child because that is their only goal Kill the Jew.  The Israeli Defense force is trying to limit its targets to known Hamas sites but when Hamas tries to shield its morter crews in a U.N. school yard as reported by a Palestinian journalist well blame the jew not the terrorist Hamas using innocents as Human shields Open your eyes people and stop listening to the left wing propaganda Avid please get your statement right from the time the Mufti of Jerusalem was seated in 1924 he began a terror campaign with his thugs killing Jewish
farmers, and friendly Arabs so to say that they lived in peace is a major over simplefication their has always been bad blood between Issaac, and Ishmeal for the last 4200 years so no they have never lived as equals the Turks were the top of the cast system, followed by the Syrian,and Egyptian, than the Arab Nomads, the Jewish Zabras (Native Jews of the region) who had to pay a heavy tax for living where they were born so It is not Zionism that changed anything it is the hatred fed by Muslim extremist that brought on this violence but everyone wants to blame the Jew sounds like 1934 all over again the Jew is why the world economy is in a shamble, The jew caused the growth of terrorism, the Jew caused Aids, the Jew caused all the worlds problems Just listen to your Biggoted responses an read what you thank of anyone with a differing veiwpoint it shows me why Hitler was able to steer a civilized pople into the Murder of 7,000,000 Jews so go ahead keep piling on the Jew they have been the kicking boy for the last 2700 years. This is why the progroms in Russia to kill and steal from the Jewish settlements there this is why a new wave of anti-semitism rushed through Europe 25 years ago and is still going on.
            John R Bloxson Jr
            Trithoverlies.

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By omop, January 7, 2009 at 1:52 pm Link to this comment

600 dead in 7 days.

some photos.
 
http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

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By KDelphi, January 7, 2009 at 1:16 pm Link to this comment

Gaza is a war crime. NO doubt about it anymore.

Volma—you are a sweetie…

So, lets focus on religion so we can ignore what is going on in Gaza. Lets just focus on the relationship of religion to Israeli society or judeo-christian values, so that the Israeli Zionist Imperialist rulers can keep killing Palestianians…

Lets do anything except stop funding Israeli war machine…

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By Maani, January 7, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

John:

“[S]aying you are a Christian doesn’t make you a Christian.”

Absolutely.  And I have made that comment a number of times on various threads.  However, I was not making a moral judgment, I was simply stating the election statistic demographics as they were.”

“It is not what you or even I think about ourselves, it is what God sees in our heart.”

Absolutely again.  Two passages speak nicely to this:

“Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”

And

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

Peace.

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By Maani, January 7, 2009 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

“Also, by mixing inherited religious origins with the wingnuts, Maani comes up with the Fact that most of the religious voted for Obama.  This requires religious Sophistication.”

I’m not sure what you are getting at here.  It is a statistical fact that more people who self-identify as “religious” voted for Obama.  That does not take “sophistication,” it only takes research.

Peace.

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By Folktruther, January 7, 2009 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Well, Cyrena, you’re right that the ethnic cleansing policies of the Israeli power structure is hitorically non-viable, and as members of the power structure themselves say, Israel cannot survive historially unless they change.  But they can’t change unless the US changes its policies, and it does not appear that it is going to.

And you are right again, that the current invasion of Gaza is to present Mr Hope n Change, as Anarcissie called him,  a fait compli, while he hides behind the back of Bush.

Volma—I actually think a spiritual ideology of some kind is necessary for people, partially because people like to celebrate the vital dates in a person’s life: birth, sexual maturity and death.

But more important, a spiritual ideology is necessry to instill a morality that can govern the relations of groupings of people just as traditional morality governs the relation of individuals.  Unfortunately power structures have hijacked traditional religion to justify Divine and earthly power, and the oppression of class-based power systems.  This largely accounts for the religoios and political delusions of the religious.

You will note, for example, that Maani, Trith’s relious colleague, maintains that the 8% volte of the wingnuts for Obama, while 92% voted for McCain represents a sea change and a fractionation of the wingnut vote.  Belief in these kind of truth assertions requires Faith.  Also by mixing inherited religious origins with the wingnuts Maani comes up with the Fact that most of the religious voted for Obama.  Thisw requires religious Sophistication.

I like your writing too.

You will not, for ex

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By Trithoverlies, January 7, 2009 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

I read the precentage piece and found it to show the problem a lot of people in this country believe they are christians because they go to church once in a while Many Lapsed Catholics still consider themselves Catholic even if they no longer go to mass or confession but saying you are a Christian doesn’t make you a Christian.  Many Protestants are in the same boat as lapsed Catholics they consider themselves Christians even when they don’t attend church are read the Bible so their is one thing wrong with your statistics the latest Pew research shows that only 50% of the country belioeves in Jesus Christ in one form or another so a large group that consider themselves to be Christians do not even recognize the center of the faith so that means they are not what they think they are others prayed a prayer when a child because it was the thing to do or they were scared into it well it is not that simple did you trufully mean it and has your life changed 20 years ago I was a binge alcoholic I have not touched a drope of alcohole in twenty years and that is a change so yes a lot of people consider themselves religious when compared to John the christian who is never in church It is not what you or even I think about ourselves it is what God sees in our heart the deceptions the lies the Hatreds the
sexual immorality, the drunkedness, the infidelity the self worship or the Idols we worship Fame, Material, Money, Power, these are what makes use and shows all of us as not good enough, this is why we all need a savior Jesus who died and rose agian that we who were dead in sin may now be alive in Jesus Christ. All religions are about what you can do to get to God be He Allah, Vishnue, Buhdda, Zorathustra,
Satan, Ghia, excedra…  But the truth in Christianity is all have sinned and miss the mark, none are righteous, so then how can God who is perfect save us from the eternity we deserve the only way was the offering of himself in Human form to take our place on the cross we all deserve. He reached down in love to all mankind, that most of us have and or will reject Him shows the true depths of or depravity so it is not about me it is about Him Jesus the Christ.  Yes I have asked Him to come in to my heart and yes everyday is a struggle against the flesh I wake up wanting that first drink but with His Help for twenty years I have been sobber and yes their is always a vendictive part in me that would smile when someone dies in their sin but I also hurt for them for it is then to late to change ones fate this is sad in the extreme because we all deserve Hell we all don’t go their it is a free choice one makes so God sends no one to hell they chose to go there over His Crucifixion, and ressurection so many today believe in gods, or a god
not many believe in the True and Living God Jesus The Christ this is in fact what breakes my heart it is mans hurtful pride and mocking of Jesus, and the use by many as a curse, I am still human with human frealties an know that my old hate filled self can rise up at anytime and has done so in some of my writing so I am sorry for any derogatory, hurtful thing I have said I can not take them back but I can attempt to fight that hateful part of my being that rises up and that is all I can promise I am neither perfect nor better then the next guy I am a sinner saved by grace attempting to live Christ like in an imperfect flesh and blood body prone to fall down and have to be picked up dusted off and disciplined where needed.
                    John R. Bloxson Jr.
                    trithoverlies.

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By Volma, January 7, 2009 at 1:45 am Link to this comment

It’s too late for me, to think, write, dribble, or anything, but I have had a wonderful time reading the posts…KDelphi, Maani, and especially Folktruther, you people are a much better read than most news articles or blogs….Honestly, I’m Not Worthy!!!Poor poor Trithoverlies, who then changed to John R. Bloxson Jr, formerly known as Trithoverlies, so sad, so very sad, I hope Jesus forgives him for drinking and writing too much….and if by chance the Rapture happens while drunk that they will overlook this…after all didn’t Jesus drink a lot too??? Anyway, I hope to God he was drunk, I don’t think God would excuse pure stupidity…Is there a link for the instructions on how to make the foil hat, my old one accidentally got recycled, by some local Buddhist left wing Hamas Muslim Gazafarion radicals…..Have you ever noticed how fun and hissy it is to say the word Zionist! I love it, love to say it while wearing my hat…Anyway, regardless, I don’t think Israel is feeling the love with this massacre, and that’s a good thing….
Love always, Volma, formerly known as The Vol, or Ma, or the Ma Vol, and who currently wants to be known as Love always, Volma…..

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By Maani, January 7, 2009 at 12:14 am Link to this comment

Folktruther:

“According to Kevin Phillips, fully 40% of the GOP vote was by voters of your religious beliefs.”

Of course, even on its face, this means that 60% of the GOP vote came from OTHER than voters of TOL’s religious beliefs.

However, it was actually only among Protestants that McCain got a larger percentage: 54 to 45.  And although the percentage among evangelicals was even more lopsided (73 to 26), for the first time since the rise of the Christian Right, the Dems (Obama) picked up an increased share (8%) of evangelicals in the 18-44 age group.  This seemingly minor percentage actually represents a sea change in the evangelical vote, and is evidence of an increasing fractionalization of the previously monolithic Christian Right.

However, among Catholics, Obama won 54 to 45, among Jews, he won 78 to 21, and among “other,” he won 73 to 22.  So one could argue that, in fact, more religious people voted for Obama than for McCain - by quite a large margin.

Peace.

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By KDelphi, January 6, 2009 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Are you all aware that a perfectly good, usable hat can be made from a simple roll of tinfoil?? Its true!

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By Trithoverlies, January 6, 2009 at 11:05 pm Link to this comment

To Volma,
I see a scared brainwashed lady done so buy an educational system that teaches only one religious belief system Secular Humanism and you accuss Christians of being brainwashed If I were you I would look agiasn at what I put mu trust in a tangable God who loves me and came down lived as a human to better understand the temptations and sacrificed His human life as the propitiation for our sins of pride, sexual immorality, lying, cheating, stealing. greed, Hatred drunkeness, drug addictions, and Idolatry. The mystic God you claim to believe in is a form of Buhddism but your God does not show Love or compassion so I believe I will stick with a God not made in the human mind but made the Human Mind but I will go to my death defending your right to worship the God you have made.  It is not the God Jahovah that is the problem its the God of Radical Islam that refusses to sit down with Israel and agree to its right to exist and stop firering rocket from Gaza into Israel the cease fire was first violated by Hamas three days after it was signed when they started lobbing rocket into Israel this would be like the Mexican Government agreeing to a cease fire with the United State but three days latter start lobbing rockets into the United State the Media of today has put all the blame for the problems in the world today on three America, Israel and Man for global warming I have some trouble with Global warming when five of the of last six winter world wide were the coldest in 60 years. Now in one respect we are to blame If we had not choosen the worship ourselves and false gods the Earth would never have been cursed with Death so in that way we are the problem. our predjudice, our hatred, our sinfulness has lead us to this point and we will not stop because God tells us in Revelation 9:20-21 ” But the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues, did not repentof the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and Idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk.  And they did not repent of their murdersor their soceries, or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”  Whether you believe the bible or not you can not help but see the simularities with today. Hamas is the bad guy here not Israel and the slaughter is bolonga because Israel is firering only where rockets are being fired from and where Hamas terrorist or using morters and rifles so pleas see the truth instead of the lie you are getting from liberal Professors and the liberal news media.
              Trithoverlies.
            John R. Bloxson Jr.

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By Folktruther, January 6, 2009 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

Holy dingbat, formerly Trith, I didn’t mean that you shouldn’t unburden yourself of the Real trith, as you so obviously need to do. Go to it, and possibly the trith will set us free. I’m genuinely touched by your diatribe, formerly Trith, and I would treat it more respectfully if I could, but you have to understand that I am a very frivolous person.  I can’t take most political anaysis, such as yours, with the seriousness that they deserve.

According to Kevin Phillips, fully 40% of the Gop vote was by voters of your religious beliefs.  Astonishing.  If you can believe in reality, beliefs such as yours ae a piece of cake.  I suggest that you refer to yourself, however, as the theologian formerly known as Trith.  It has a ring to it and will distinguish you from the others in the Rapture, should some notability be required.

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By KDelphi, January 6, 2009 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

How dare the IDF attack a US=run school!! Does anyone have any links for this, etc?

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By Volma, January 6, 2009 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment

I am certainly far from being intellectually superior to anyone…Looked at my email and linked to the conversation about the article concerning Israel’s most recent murders of the Palestinian’s….Interesting, one commenter is so stuck in his/her own Christian religious indoctrination, he/she (to me, my personal take on it) makes the point against the logic and reality of living your life based on religion…Hey I don’t want to stop anyone from their beliefs, but if they are killing others, stealing, raping, torturing, injuring, in the name of their God, I think their God must be a totally evil fascist God, and I really don’t want any part of that God…I was raised and brainwashed Christian, and for the most part, I rarely see anyone who calls themselves Christian actually follow the simple, few teachings of Christ, as put out in the Holy Bible…I see them using, twisting, distorting the teachings of Christ for their own benefit, and that’s it…I was taught to believe that the Jews are the chosen people and that when they took back Israel, this was the beginning of the second coming,,,woo woo!!!As I have grown older, I have taken the time to study history, and religions, and have had to accept the facts, drop my fears and superstitions and look at life, God love and death in other ways…This changed my beliefs created a “paradigm shift” and I am grateful to God, “The Great Spirit” The universe, life and whatever it’s called that I am part of!!!!Although being a mere human and a cynical one at that, I am really hoping that the (Born again, evangelicals) Christians get their wish as far as the beaming up, rapture thing, and the rest of the “World Wide Radical Fantastical Fanatics Religious Circus” (and death camp, WWRFFRC) can maybe go with them, so that the rest of us could live in peace then…So I was wondering if anyone else has any knowledge or news, resources about the rumor that I read on a site about Israeli’s use of “Dirty Bombs” in Gaza, which of course wouldn’t surprise me, the US has used dirty bombs…  I recently found a site for a religion that I could actually maybe convert to http://www.churchofreality.org, an actual religion that isn’t out to hurt kill maim, conquer, or otherwise harm our fellow humans! I also looked up the word “The Good Red Road” from I think from a comment by Tao Walker on another article, and found the Good Red Road, Code of ethics…Goggle it if so inclined, it’s great…I think religion is, always has been, a political issue, because religions have always been the catalyst to enslave, motivate, justify, persuade others to political agenda’s…You can’t have an army, can’t rule the masses without their approval or cooperation…and what better way to control them then from using their fear of life and death, need to believe that they will live on and that there is a god that will take care of them and reward them after they die…People live their entire life for death…It’s insane, and yet we have been doing the same dance over and over and over…It seems to me, that if human kind can ever get “Over Itself” and stop believing the insanity, start asking questions, being honest, accepting the realities of life, we could actually know what our short time on earth is about…The reality is that the “Bible” among other texts, was written by man, mere humans, and there are so many loop holes, one has to believe the lies that they call “Having Faith” because this is the only way they can keep control and get others to believe nonsensical, crazy bull, created to control, have power, manipulate their fellow beings… If I actually believed that these other religions are true, their Gods real, they are alien evil Gods, and I certainly wouldn’t want to worship them!

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By Trithoverlies, January 6, 2009 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment

You do not want the truth to interfer with the fantasy of a Palestinian people so you resort to name calling and not learning the truth. Attacking me as a dingbat and right winger show who is really the biggot here and it is not me thank you for so clearly showing that. It is you that lay all the problems of the world at the feet of the Jews sounds a lot like some of the speeches made by Hitler & Stalin and neither one of them was a religious person unless you count worshipping ones self as being religious so what I have said is you have the right to disiminate your brand of truth while you want to withhold my right to and evan worse you think calling me a bunch of names shows who really is the intelegent one well To assurge your feeling I will no longer refer to liberels as being bais, liers, or any such perjorative words and will now only say the Liberal is wrong because the Facts or on my side here not yours and I will give you my real name instead of continuing to hide behind a persona it is John Richard Bloxson Jr.  If you want to address me as a dingbat right winger well I can not stop you and if you want to desiminate lies as truth it is your right but It is also a right for me to speak aswell that is what My cousin, and Grandfathers died for so that we might live were the exchange of Ideas was not shunned but incouraged which means I will appologize for my calling several comments ingnorant of the truth but I also believe that both side must be willing to talk and accept the other which by the way all the bending over backwards in the middle east has been by The Jews Even Abbas’s Palestinian Authority has not met the first of the set requirerments toward a lasting peace set by Jimmy Carter way back in 1977 while Isreal did that same year, when the Oslow accords were fassioned in 1993 under Clinton it was The dirty Jew that made concession after concession while The peace maker Arafat slammed clossed the door and began thew first Intafada, so get your facts straight the only sticking point was that Israel was not going to give up its right to Jerusalem while the Palestinian Authority refussed to even change the plank in their constitution that refussed to recognize Israels right to exist, and guess what the Palestinian Authority to this day has yet to chang that plank and if you were truly well informed you would know that Israel pleaded with the Middle eastern neighbors for peace in 1947-1948 as they neighbors stockpiled rifles ammunition, tanks, Planes and all other military Hardware when the Jewish Palmauch tried to beginto arm itself with deffensive weaponary the British Military confiscated it and even hung some of the Jewish men and women that were captured with the small weapons shipments so I am apphalled at your continued self imposed exile from the truth.  The Israeli’s did not Invade any other country in 1948 but on May 15th
the Countries of Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon, and the Mufti’s personal Terrorist Army of 50,000 did invade the Land given to Israe by the United Nations and in the Peace that was sued for by the Neighbors in 1949 the U.N. even took some of the land back from the victors the State of Israel I just wish you gus would be half as interested in the truth as Most Consevatives are and remmember I said most not all.
                    John R. Bloxson Jr
                    formaly known as
                    Trithoverlies.

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By KDelphi, January 6, 2009 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

Maani—No, I did not read every post. I am not attacking you. I suppose I should just acknowledge that,people refer situations back to their own experience…

I know that you are in a bad situation, as are many of us. Have been for awhile. That is why we want some REAL change. There is a link to the Imperialist game and the attacks on Gaza:

http://www.marxist.com/israeli-barbarism-in-gaza.htm

If we were not sending so much money to Israel for weapons, we would probably have been able to build more affordable housing. Veterans care. Health care in general.

If we dont stop spending so much on death, we will never have good lives.

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By Maani, January 6, 2009 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

KDelphi:

“Maani—I would like to know how it is,that, on every thread that I go to, you are talking religion, yet you say that you are not? You seem to be able to turn any article around to being about religion.”

You have clearly not been paying attention.

The first mention of religion on this thread was the 2nd post on the thread, by Jim Yell.  This was followed by religion-based posts on the same date by Truthoverlies, PogueMahone and Eso.  Volma added to the religious conversation on 12/30.

My first post (12/30) had nothing to do with religion - even though it was already being discussed.  My 2nd and 3rd posts similarly had nothing to do with religion.  My 4th post, which did have to with religion, was a RESPONSE to a post by Folktruther (who was responding to Truthoverlies).  Same with my 5th and 6th posts.

Pay attention to the order of things, and stop attacking me.

Peace.

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By cyrena, January 6, 2009 at 2:09 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, January 3 at 4:18 pm #

The Gazan slaughter is an Election War, to prove that Avni and Barak can be just as bloody as Netanyahu, who is leading in the election polls.  The slaughter in Gaza is intended to win an election.

~~~

Folktruther,

I’ve been ‘pondering’ on this, because I really have considered the Israeli Elections to be at least part of this. BUT…I’m wondering how much, and I honestly don’t have a lot to really go on.

That is in part because I’ve never understood the political mentality of the Israelis in actually PREFERRING these blood thirsty “Bullies of the World” regimes. I mean, even just a 45% comprehension of basic logic would inform the average person that the Israelis are -at the very least- shooting themselves in the foot with the extreme levels of hatred they’ve developed over the decades. That’s at the very least, because this brutal aggression has been perpetrated against too many lines and generations of the Arab world. These are generations whose entire worldview is formed by the persecution they’ve endured at the hands of Israel and yes, the USA.

So I guess my question is, WHY do they keep electing these agents of massacre? It HAS to be because they WANT these massacres themselves. Yet I know too many American AND Israeli Jews that are as categorically opposed to this as most civilized people are.

Anyway, if THIS is how they pander to an electorate, (and they’ve ALWAYS won on such platforms) the source of the rot is far deeper than can be answered by little more than an election season ploy.

In fact, I’m more inclined to see this as a reaction to the US elections that have NOT gone their way - or at least not as overwhelmingly as they would have preferred. Indeed Hillary was their first choice behind Guiliani, and while they may have got her, it’s only on a very short leash.

I think the reality (explained by Frank Goodman on another thread) is that Israel and their associated regime here in the US is doing their last run while they can, because they don’t KNOW(as so many here like to think they do)WHAT Barack Obama is gonna do as president.

I think they SHOULD know, because for anybody actually paying attention, it hasn’t been a secret that Obama supports a return to The Rule of Law in both foreign and domestic policy. It’s that ‘centerism’ everybody keeps ‘accusing’ him of. It’s that ideology of leading the operation BACK from the abyss that the Thugs have brought us to, to get back to a more stable and relatively balanced position. That generally requires a more center location. So, that’s his ‘crime’, and it’s one that has the Terrorist Twins worried.

That’s just my two cents, if only because the thought of it only being an election ploy sickens me even more…if that’s possible.

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By Trithoverlies, January 6, 2009 at 1:04 am Link to this comment

to Pogue Mahone,
No one Created Him He is the unmoved mover who has been from everlasting to everlasting the one who created time not the one time created.  I know you find that hard to swollow just as hard as I find your Evolution theory hard to swollow since it wants to answer the question of the origin of the species but does not do so it has no beginning but science agrees it has an end.  And most scientist believe the Universes had a beginning and are winding down torward an end.
                  Trithoverlies.

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By Trithoverlies, January 6, 2009 at 12:50 am Link to this comment

To Pogue,

That crapy peice of land is producing the best fruit and vegtables in the whole Middle East and has been the biggest exporter of agricultural crops, so agian you have shown just how biased and liberal you are. By the way 2300 B.C. the Chaldeans ruled in the Tigris, and Euphrates River area, and the land of Caanan was prised as it set on the major trade routes from Egypt to the Chaldeans and beyond so you are just full of errors today. There is less proofe
of evolution as being a true scientific theory since it contridicts many laws of Science so you can believe in your fantasy but not without giving up some of you intellectual ground that evolution is built on.  Mutations have proven to be less fit than the parents of the mutations so bad infact in about 99% of the cases they are sterile there goes your millions of years of mutation down the drain, survival of the fitest does not hold water, and we are not getting better are we?  The Idea that nothing made something or the law on Matter exnihlo well that would be an interesting trick sinse nothing is made by nothing. Atleast I can point to God the creator you can point to a big Bang that happened though nothing was there than something was there to go bang my faith is built on the solid rock of Christ Jesus yours on shifting sand so please continue to show the intelectual bais of the liberal Elitest because it gives me a chance to show some of the holes in your logic with regards to science and geography.  And by the way the New Testament has far more copies than Homer’s Iliad which you guys accept even though the oldest surviving copy is removed from the original manuscript by nearly 2000 Years while we have Greek New testaments dating back to 350 A.D. 5686 Greek New Testaments to The Ileads 643 and niece try B.C.E. and C.E. Before the Common Era and The Common Era only in use in the last 50 years while Before Christ, and anno Dmino In the Year of our LORD was used by a larg part of the civilized world for about 1600 years I believe my A.D. and B.C. trump your B.C.E. & C.E. by a long shot.  The fact that for 2000 years before Christ the land was taken lost and retaken not because it was crapy land as you say but in fact very valuable instead.  The Assyrians wanted it the Chaldeans (Babylonians), Egyptians, Syrians, Greeks, and Romans all wanted this strategic land so crapy deffinately does not define the land properly and after the Romans, the Mamuluk Turks , the Salujic Turks, and the Otteman Turks all wanted it so I have a little trouble taken your comment very seriously.
                  Trithoverlies,

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By KDelphi, January 5, 2009 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment

Maani—I would like to know how it is,that, on every thread that I go to, you are talking religion, yet you say that you are not? You seem to be able to turn any article around to being about religion.

I suppose if that holds all the answers for you, but, jeez…I do not now what you think is funny about Gaza…

It is your business…

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By Trithoverlies, January 5, 2009 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

To Pogue Mahone,
You are quite mistaken in that Christ was never here in the first place so we will start there.  When were the Gospels writen? lets see now Mathew, Mark, and Luke were writen between 56 A.D. and 65 A.D. hardly time for myth to creep in and well with in the bounds of historical accuracy.  If The Christ was born between 6 B.C. and the end of 5 B.C. Joseph and Mary would have had to travel to Bethleham to regester and at this same time Herod wanted a record of anyone in the line of David that could capture the people and we know the type of man Herod was a slime who killed His own wife and sons because he feared they were plotting to overthrow him.  This is the type of man who well would have ordered the death of every boy child under the age of two Matthew a Tax Collector/Levi a much learned man reports the order to kill the boys in and around Bethleham.  When you question if Christ ever existed you have truly shown that you do not know the truth.  Why a coverup
among the Sadducee’s and how did a none existant person capture the hearts and minds of men so quikely No you are mistaken in your belief that Jesus Christ never existed.  Over nearly 2000 years and acouple billion changed lives and you can question the existance even with three eyewittness acounts of His life and teachings and the Investigative reporting of Luke an educated Doctor and Historian no you are deffinitly mistaken in you questioning of Jesus the Christ existance Many through the years have been in your shoes One Saul of Tarsus a Pharisee a student of the Famed Teacher Gamalial that means he had the equivalent of a Ph.D. could speak and write in Arimaic, Hebrew, Latin and Koine Greek, Mr. Mahone do you have does type of credintuals I sure do not so read Acts 7-9. He went about arresting followers of the Way as the Christians were called and about 34 A.D.He became a follower of the way and its most prolific writer.  The numbers of followers continued to grow by leaps so fast in fact their was a riot in Rome in 48 A.D. between jews and followers of the way that had the Jews expelled from Rome and this is only 18 to 20 years after the crucifixion I am sorry but you do not have a leg to stand on other than a rabald unchristian documentary of a group of scoffers who are a sad example of the intellectual bais found in our College’s and Universities and a group of learned men. The weight of the evidence is so great in fact that the famed Harvard Professor and atheist Simon Greenleaf set out to prove your thesis and came back with a report that there is more than enough eyewittness account from the four Gospel to despell any doubt Christ lived Christ Died on the Cross and Christ rose again vitory over death and the grave to
prove His claim of being the Son of God are I should say one of the three persons of the triune God. He even wrote a best selling book about his search, comparision and conclusions so no sir you are mistaken Jesus did Live 2000 years ago was crucified on a Cross with two convicted murderers was burried and on the third day arose did eat with the two on the road to Emmaus, appeared to three women, the ten Disciples and than a week latter to all eleven counting Thomas who put his fingers in the nail holes and the place were the spear had penatrated his body, He ate with them and taught for forty days during which time more than 500 people saw and talked with Him and watched as He ascended into heaven and two messangers in bright white robes stated this same Jesus is comming agian in like mannor so watch and be ready.  You have shown the liberal bais and training that has infected our education system since The religious zealot Thomas Dewery of the secular humanist church and educator began the brainwashing of the elite.
                Jesus Christ is risen.
                  Trithoverlies.

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By Maani, January 5, 2009 at 11:10 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

I knew it would…LOL.

Peace.

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By Folktruther, January 5, 2009 at 10:57 pm Link to this comment

Thanks, Maani, for your theological wisdom about when this massacre will occur.  It makes all the difference.

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By Maani, January 5, 2009 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment

PogueMahone:

“In order for “Christ to come again”, that implies he was actually here once.  History is quite silent on his first visit, in fact, there is the exact same amount of historical evidence for Jesus as there is for Humpty Dumpty, Santa Claus and Peter Pan.”

There is even less historical evidence for Homer (among others) than for Jesus.  Are you suggesting that he didn’t exist either?

Peace.

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By PogueMahone, January 5, 2009 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

Maani -
In order for “Christ to come again”, that implies he was actually here once.  History is quite silent on his first visit, in fact, there is the exact same amount of historical evidence for Jesus as there is for Humpty Dumpty, Santa Claus and Peter Pan.

Trith - My but you get all worked up over a fictional real estate transaction that occurred, allegedly, in 2300 BCE.  And what a crappy piece of land that was/is.

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By Maani, January 5, 2009 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

“But the future massacres that you require before the Messiah rides again…”

You still have the theology wrong.  While there will be wars (including “Armageddon,” which has nothing to do with Jews in particular) PRIOR to Christ’s return, the “massacre” you mention occurs AFTER it; i.e., when He Himself separates the “wheat” from the “chaff” - after those who have been given NUMEROUS chances to accept Him as Savior have rejected ALL of those opportunities.

Peace.

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By Folktruther, January 5, 2009 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Trith, you Educated dingbat.  I usually don’t respond to right wing drivel but I was so charmed by your getting a Master’s degree, no doubt in Advanced Looniness, that I had to congratulate you. I assume, like your religious coleague, Maani, that you have also read the Holy LEFT BEHIND series, and it has helped crystalize your grasp of reality, such as it is.  Bless you, Trith, we need more Educated people like yourself in the Gop leadership.

I assume the Rapture slaughter will be very splendid, destroying so many people that ‘no man could count them.’  I can safely assume, then, that your Master’s degree is not in mathematics.  However
you have obviously carefully studied the matter and nearly two thirds of the Jews will be killed as well as countless others.

Maani has assurred that the Holy Series does not emphasize Jews but prophisizes a General Massacre. And he supposes that I will Rant about that as well.  Picky, picky, eh, Maani.  But the future massacres that you require before the Messiah rides again merely continues the Holy Massacres of God in the Old Testiment or Jewish Bible.  Part of the Holy Jewish-Christian tradition.

Have a safe trip up during the Rapture, Trith.  I will pray for your safe Landing.

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By Trithoverlies, January 5, 2009 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

Gilly from Trithoverlies,
You have shown your bais at the start of your comments so I will speak to that.  The socalled Zionist are the only ones with the right to the Holy Land it was given to them By the one true God around 2300 BC. because of the wickedness of the Caaninites and what I mean wickidness was the simular practices of the 5 cities that God destroyed for the unrepentant wickedness sacrificing their children to Molech, and Dagon, and other fertility Idols, sexual promiscuity and all other manner of wikedness proformed by all the inhabitants much as the caaninites bring their destruction on themselves yes were they given warnings yes did they heed those warnings no.
  The Turks who conquered and laid claim to the area called Palestine from 740 A.D. to 1918 A.D. never mentioned a people called the Palestinians so when did they exist?  Never the Philistine existed from 2300B.C til 570 B.C when the Babalonians (Iraqi’s) uterly destroyed their five cities and inhabitants with Fire and sword the Caaninites were all but destroyed by the Israelites and other peoples the Mideanites the Assyrians the Babylonians and the Egyptians between 2000 B.C. and 1000 B.C. so the Socalled Palestinian can not be the remnant of the Caaninites, or the Philestine so who are they?  They are Syrians, Hashimites, Egyptians Lebonese, Arab, ant Turks, most who moved in after 1830 A.D. to work as itenerate laborers for a period of time than move on and the lie of Aparthied why druze Arabs are members of the Kinesett the Israeli Congress and Military so Israel practicing Aparthied is bolonga. The only place’s that Aparthied is allowed to exist is in the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority,  Gaza under Hamas where Palestinian Christians have had their churches destroyed the homes stolen and the live threatened, and in every Middle Eastern nation where The socalled Palestinian languish in refugee camps where they were placed in 1948 afeter the 5 Middle Eastern Amies forcibally removed them through threats of Assination, or intimadation so please learn the truth and do the research before you judge Israel.  The situation in Gaza belongs in the blood soaked hands of the lie called the Palestinian people who voted overwhelmingly to place their lives behind the terrorist organization Hamas.

                    Pray for the Peace
                      of Jerusalem.

                      Trithoverlies.

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By PogueMahone, January 5, 2009 at 9:36 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies:

Two questions for you,

1. How old is the universe?

2. If everything has to have a creator, then who created your god?

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By gilly, January 5, 2009 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

What to say? As usual Fisk’s article is clear thinking laced with real anger and I don’t blame him for that at all, afterall he comes from a position of being in the Middle-East for many years.
I would be inclined to say lets have an oil embargo against Israel but of course the Saudi Royal Family would never agree because the US supplies them with arms to protect their position. What a sad situation that Palestinian Arab neighbours do nothing and how fortunate for the Zionist hawks.
Perhaps Jews around the world could come together and put pressure on the Zionists after all they must know there will be an ever rising tide of anti-jewish sentiment if these dreadful war crimes continue.

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By Trithoverlies, January 4, 2009 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment

Dear Pogue Mahone,
Being called ignorant hurts does it well
you fantasy pushers of Evolution as the answer for the origin of life have been calling Christians ignorant for the past 60 are more years yet Evolution still has not answered the original question
about the origin of Life you say two ammino acids cme together to form the first single celled life form but than where did the amino acids come from why out of the swamp of course, where did the swamp come from from the calling of the planet, Why then where did the planets come from why of course the big bang, what pray tell caused the big bang
if you say exnihilo gee than you are starting at the same place most religions start at why Nothing can not cause something so We atleast believe in the unmoved mover GOD where as the religion of Evolution contridicts several laws of science the law dealing with matter, the laws dealing with the beginning and running down, and the mutations over millions of years making something better, we know through science that in fact every mutaion instead of improving the speacies in fact weakens the speacies and in around 99% of the known mutations end in sterility so I think it is time that the truth be taught if we can’t prove a theory as fact do not teach it as fact it is just a theory nothing more and when we teach the theory we should teach the theory with all its warts not try to claim it has none.  Truth is I believe Jesus Chrst is Who He Said He Was and yes that He was crucified burried and arose on the third day just as 120 specific prophecies from the Old Testament predicted the odds of all 120
of these prophecies being fulfilled in one person is so close to nill that I could not write the number of zero’s that would be needed so you can believe your belief system and if your right you gain nothing but if I am right you lose everything and if I am wrong then I neither lose nor gain I like my option a whole lot better than yours with mine I have a fifty fifty chance of winning while if your wrong you have a one hundred percent chance og losing everything now who is the one thats got a problem me or you?  I know you don’t think you can loose but what if your wrong eternity is along time to regret your choice.  I know I am ignorant I probably do not have a lick of college well the fact is I am a College Graduate working on a Masters Degree though I hate to say it but I am a very poor speller and my writing is not very good but I have seen a lot happen in the last 45 years that I can remember and seen a lot of Biblical Prophecy come about like the rebirth of a Nation after 2534
years of Exhile to name just one, and now the alliances being made between Russia and the Ten peoples of Ezekiel 38 Persia (Iran) Put (Libya) Cush (Sudan, Chad, Ethiopia, Somalia, and Ertrea.) Togarmah (part of Turkey and Syria) Gomer (The rest of Turkey and southern Europe) Dardan (Saudi Arabia), Sheba (soutern Iraq and Kuwait) and Tarshiish (apart of Northern Europe)along with the Republics of Belerus, and Azarbaijan, and the breakaway segments of the Republic of Georgia.  You can laugh but what is the odds of all these prophecies being fulfilled in one life time very slim so if I am right the world is in trouble and if I am wrong the world is in trouble.  I am sorry I hurt your fillings but you now know what you and your buddies have been dishing out to us for a long time, and By the way I was sincere I am praying for you and all those who have bought into the Secular Humanist Religion as well as those of all other religions That I believe are mistaken, but If I am wrong
well I lose nothing again and what do you gain nothing.

            Tritoverlies,

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By Folktruther, January 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

The Gazan slaughter is an Election War, to prove that Avni and Barak can be just as bloody as Netanyahu, who is leading in the election polls.  The slaughter in Gaza is intended to win an election.

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By Maani, January 2, 2009 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment

PogueMahone:

Thank you for your peace wish.  I think TOL’s prayer was also well-intentioned, despite anything to the contrary.

Re “I sincerely hoped for a better 2009, but it isn’t starting out very well.  Too much violence over a real estate transaction between yahweeh and his chosen folks during the Bronze Age.”

I agree.  However, unless I missed it (since I have not read every single post to all five threads re Gaza), one thing has not been mentioned.  Doesn’t the timing of this seem AWFULLY coincidental?  That is, why has nobody suggested that the Gaza situation was somehow engineered by the Bush Administration (or its proxies) just to make Obama’s job even HARDER than it was already going to be?

Hmmm….

Peace.

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By PogueMahone, January 2, 2009 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

Maani

Peace to you as well.

As far as the “honest” prayer, well, I have my doubts. This person throws revelation at me, calls me ignorant and then says a wee prayer to make it all better?  No thanks Trithoverlies.

I sincerely hoped for a better 2009, but it isn’t starting out very well.  Too much violence over a real estate transaction between yahweeh and his chosen folks during the Bronze Age.

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By Maani, January 2, 2009 at 9:46 am Link to this comment

PogueMahone:

Even if you reject faith and religion, why reject the honest offer of a prayer for you?  As they say in Brooklyn, “It can’t hoit.”

Siochain.

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By PogueMahone, January 2, 2009 at 9:18 am Link to this comment

Trith(?)overlies wrote,

May God bless and Keep you from
          the trevails that will soon
        overtake those who dwell on the
              earth.
              Truthoverlies

Please, no “prayers” for me to your imaginary friend in the sky.

No gods, no masters…..........

And by all means, pogue mahone.

PogueMahone

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By Trithoverlies, January 2, 2009 at 8:03 am Link to this comment

Dear Maani,
You make a point there will be no terrible murder of all the Jewish people But when the Anti-Christ puts an end to sacrifices in the Temple and desacrates it
the first to fill the effects will be jewish and than also Tribulation saints and that will indeed be a true Holocaust a number which no man can count.
Technically you are right the Jewish people will not be selected alone but nearly 2/3rds will die during the last three and one half years of the Tribulation.

To Daga,
T E Larence was saddened on two counts the disunity of the Arabs and second the underhanded dealings with the French and English Diplomat Bureaucrats in other word the State Departments.  The Arabs not the Palestinians Daga and by the way did you choose that name because it is close to one of the God’s of a extinct union of five cities of philistia Dagon who the Philistines sacrificed babies to for fare trade and agricultural abundance and sexual prowess, and fertility. By the way these five cities were never the whole area now claimed by Hamas and the falsely named people called palestinians the Philstine were destroyed by the babylonians when they allied with the Egyptians in 570 B.C. not a man woman or child was spared destruction it was a burnt land destruction.  I am
always saddened when people try to defend a people who never existed before the British protectorate in 1918-1948 and the Arabs for the most part did not settle anywhere in Palestine in the great numbers reported by the Palestinian Authorities infact from 100 AD till 1830 AD very few Arabs lived in the area called Palestine It was the influx of Jewish settlers and Sabras Jews who had never left Palestine using new Scientific farming techniques that began the flow of Arab workers some who stayed year around but most continued to move over vast distances never staying in one place longer than it took for that place to be graizes out so Daga you see History proves there was never a Palestinian nation and or a palestinian people so the ones calling them selves palestinians are Egyptians Syrians, Hashimites Saudi’s Iraqese, Persians, Lebonese, and Trukish. Now please spread the real truth instead of the false truth of the leftist.


I DID NOT SUBMIT THESE REMARKS BEFORE AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU HAVE KICKED THIS BACK SAYING IT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED BEFORE
                      Sincerly,
                    Trithoverlies

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By Trithoverlies, January 2, 2009 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

Dear Maani,
You make a point there will be no terrible murder of all the Jewish people But when the Anti-Christ puts an end to sacrifices in the Temple and desacrates it
the first to fill the effects will be jewish and than also Tribulation saints and that will indeed be a true Holocaust a number which no man can count.
Technically you are right the Jewish people will not be selected alone but nearly 2/3rds will die during the last three and one half years of the Tribulation.

To Daga,
T E Larence was saddened on two counts the disunity of the Arabs and second the underhanded dealings with the French and English Diplomat Bureaucrats in other word the State Departments.  The Arabs not the Palestinians Daga and by the way did you choose that name because it is close to one of the God’s of a extinct union of five cities of philistia Dagon who the Philistines sacrificed babies to for fare trade and agricultural abundance and sexual prowess, and fertility. By the way these five cities were never the whole area now claimed by Hamas and the falsely named people called palestinians the Philstine were destroyed by the babylonians when they allied with the Egyptians in 570 B.C. not a man woman or child was spared destruction it was a burnt land destruction.  I am
always saddened when people try to defend a people who never existed before the British protectorate in 1918-1948 and the Arabs for the most part did not settle anywhere in Palestine in the great numbers reported by the Palestinian Authorities infact from 100 AD till 1830 AD very few Arabs lived in the area called Palestine It was the influx of Jewish settlers and Sabras Jews who had never left Palestine using new Scientific farming techniques that began the flow of Arab workers some who stayed year around but most continued to move over vast distances never staying in one place longer than it took for that place to be graizes out so Daga you see History proves there was never a Palestinian nation and or a palestinian people so the ones calling them selves palestinians are Egyptians Syrians, Hashimites Saudi’s Iraqese, Persians, Lebonese, and Trukish. Now please spread the real truth instead of the false truth of the leftist.

                      Sincerly,
                    Trithoverlies

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By Maani, January 1, 2009 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

I have read the entire Left Behind series, and there is no mention of a pre-“rapture” massacre of the Jews.  Nor even a POST-“rapture” massacre of the Jews.  There IS a “general” massacre of all those who refused to convert during the “end times” (final seven years).  But this includes everyone: Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians, agnostics, atheists, etc.

You may feel free to rant against THAT as well; but your continued claims or “beliefs” about the issue (i.e., that it is somehow connected to Jews) are incorrect from a theological-Scriptural standpoint.

Peace.

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By Folktruther, January 1, 2009 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Apparently, Maani, the Real Final Solution of your religious colleagues is written in the holy LEFT BEHIND series, which has sold over 60 MILLION books, videos and comic books.  The political situation in the US has obviously been mythologized in particularly loony religion.  I wondered why Trith hit on this particular massacre rather than any other kind.

Gus, who I considered diseased, suggested that for everyone child killed by Israeli, a Jewish child should be killed somewhere in the world.  I’m sorry his comment was excised; it’s good to know what sickos we have to deal with.

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By Maani, January 1, 2009 at 3:39 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther:

“As I understand it, the Jews have to be massacred before you and your companions are beamed up to Heaven in The Rapture.”

I know of no such Scripture.  Indeed, there are three different interpretations re the timing of the “rapture” (a word never used in Scripture), and none of them include a “massacre” of the Jews.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

According to the pre-millenial interpretation (i.e., the “rapture” occurs prior to the “end times”), not only is there no massacre of the Jews prior to it, but immediately following it, there will be 144,000 “super-evangelist” Jews-cum-Christians who bring more people to Christ in the last seven years than in all of history prior thereto.

Peace.

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By Dag Andersson, January 1, 2009 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

@dihey

That is not true.

T.E.Lawrence had full support from King Hussain and his sons.  The ongoing battle between Saud- and Rashid- tribes on the other side of the peninsula had very little if any impact on his warfare against the Ottoman empire.
  His reason for despair was The Triple Entente’s deceitfulness.
  The McMahon-Hussein Agreement of 1915 was accepted by Palestinians as a promise by the British that after WW l, land previously held by the Turks would be returned to the Arab nationals who lived in that land.  This arrangement was for the best for all parties, including the arab jew :


T. E. Lawrence and Zionism
 

You know of course the root differences between the Palestine Jew   and the colonist Jew: to Feisal the important point is that the former   speak Arabic, and the latter German Yiddish. He is in touch with the   Arab Jews (their H.Q. at Safed and Tiberias is in his sphere) and   they are ready to help him, on conditions. They show a strong antipathy   to the colonist Jews, and have even suggested repressive measures   against them. Feisal has ignored this point hitherto, and will continue   to do so. His attempts to get into touch with the colonial Jews have   not been very fortunate. They say they have made their arrangements   with the Great Powers, and wish no contact with the Arab Party. They   will not help the Turks or the Arabs.


When the Balfour declaration was made in -17, and 3 weeks after that the new rulers in Kremlin made the secret Sykes–Picot Agreement known T.E. Lawrence felt he had been instrumental in luring the arabs into the war under false pretences.

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By Folktruther, January 1, 2009 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

You’re really sick, Gus.  Instead of stopping the killing of children you want to expand it the whole world.  Unfortunately there are political maniacs like you in the population, many of them religious, whose only solution to random violence and aggression is more random violence and aggression.  Including provocateurs funded by the police.

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By Folktruther, January 1, 2009 at 11:41 am Link to this comment

Trithoverlies: Your ravings, Trith, (Trith?) are really very fine and I am especially interested in the Real Final Solution, that Hitler only hinted at, that you and your coleagues believe in.  As I understand it, the Jews have to be massacred before you and your companions are beamed up to Heaven in The Rapture.

This doens’t seem to make much sense.  I know we are dealing here with religion, not sense, but why a massacre of the Jews, who you are now supporting to massacre the Palestinians?  I know it was so written in the holy LEFT BEHIND series, but what is the spiritual or religious point of it?

I assume that you have the same respect for scholarship and the same sense of reality that Maani does, and these inform your moral and spiritual values.  And these in turm have been shaped by the Holy massacres and Sacred atrocities of the Jewish Bible.  But why massacre the Jews now?  If you have time, Trith, before you are beamed upstream, I would be interested.  Inquiring minds want to know.

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By omop, January 1, 2009 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

The truth as it has been said so often does set one free.

  From the man whose foot steps Osama BEN Laden followed David BEN Gurion,  said in 1956-

      ” Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural:we have taken their country.” quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99.

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By nahida, January 1, 2009 at 10:40 am Link to this comment

Please take some time to watch the TRUTH

You owe it to yourself
You owe it to your children
You owe it to this agonized planet
You owe to the future of humanity


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The TERROR of TERRORIST zionist entity can be seen here

http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Reality in Palestine

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/1970466:Video:37170

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Gaza Massacre - The Movie

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/video/show?id=1970466:Video:37291

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Nowhere to run for those trapped in Gaza

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/nowhere-to-run-for-those

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Happy New Year 2009 for the Children of Gaza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://palestinian.ning.com/profiles/blogs/happy-new-year-2009-for-the

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The tiny bodies that were murdered

http://palestinian.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=1970466:Photo:37286

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

PLEASE SPREAD WIDELY

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By Dave Schwab, January 1, 2009 at 7:48 am Link to this comment

It’s time to break the neverending cycle of militarism and violence. The first step is deflating the US military-industrial complex to a sustainable level.

Sign the petition for a Secure Green Future at Green Change: http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/1488/t/689/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=509

We’re telling Obama to cut wasteful military spending by at least 70% and invest the savings in education, health care, preventing foreclosures, and developing green energy.

History shows that more killing will not make us safe. True security comes from leaving peacefully, within the limits of Earth’s capacity.

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By cyrena, December 31, 2008 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

By dihey, December 31 at 10:26 am #

T. E. Lawrence “of Arabia” despaired because what he called “the Arab Tribes” would not collaborate to defeat the Turkish army. It is not much different today except that T. E.’ “Tribes” are big Arab States now. Other than that they do not collaborate but fight one another. The shit will hit the fan only when they stop doing that.

````
You’ve made an interesting connection here dihey…There really doesn’t seem to be much difference between then and now, in terms of the Tribal Wars, since this has been present throughout history at the foundation of most modern day societies. The more things change, the more they stay the same..or so it would seem.

But, on this last sentence, are you saying that the collision of shit with a fan is something that we should be awaiting as the desirable result?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but doesn’t it seem like the shit has already pretty much hit the fan, largely BECAUSE of this never ending Domestic Tribal Chaos, (which we have an equal level of here in North America, and particularly the US)?

Or, was that what you actually meant? Like in other words, until the now ‘big Arab States’ can start collaborating with instead of fighting each other, the shit will continue to interact with the proverbial fan?

Some key words here (at least in real-time as opposed to T.E.s time) are “Big” and “Arab”, in terms of “States”. I’m wondering if it would be beneficial to further discussion on this part of the issue, (Arab involvement in their own demise AND/OR their collective salvation, just to have a working definition of who these big and Arab States actually ARE.

It is important I think to the discussion, if only because this lack of unity can be seen as a primary reason for the on-going destruction. The absence of unity or cohesion in any organization or socio-political grouping creates chaos, which creates instability. It’s human nature in terms of how all people behave in any given society. It’s like any other ‘thing’ that depends on the ‘whole’ for survival. When the unity is broken down, the whole is broken up and becomes vulnerable to continued destruction.

Needless to say, this destruction of unity is the standard tool for any EXTERNAL power to utilize in pursuit of Imperialism, in this case; US global hegemony, not to mention Israel’s parallel goal for the entire Middle East.

Sorry, I got off-track. Anyway, since we know that as of now, the part of the “Arab World” or the “Big Arab States” that we believe should be actively involved in stopping the on-going genocide of the Palestinians has NOT done enough, we need to identify them first, to then question why they haven’t.

So…who should we be looking at here? We’ve got Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Yemen. Those are the “Arab” ones. (I could have left somebody out,  since I don’t have an atlas in front of me. ) Then we’ve also got Iran, (not Arab; but Muslim and in the region) and we’ve got Turkey, which has some Arabs of course, (just as there are some in Persian Iran) but they’re mostly Muslim Turks, (who have their own issues with Arabs) so the location to the region and the religious identity are the common threads there as well.

Now who among them, should we be ‘looking at’ to be collaborating with each other, and what in their individual political histories might have so far prevented them from doing anything more than they have?

Does that sound like an interesting project? Are the SAME issues present today as they were back in Lawrence’s day, and just replaced by different actors?

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By Trithoverlies, December 31, 2008 at 9:08 pm Link to this comment

Dear Maani,
I congradulate you on some of what you said in your last reply.  We may never agree on evrything but we are civilized enough to know this and work around it
where as These Terrorist group have never learned coexistance and you are right there will be NO peacve in the Middle East till the false one come ands sign a treaty for seven years in Daniel Chapter 9:24-27 which He will break and spread war on a scale unimaginable where half the population of the world will die many as martyrs but many just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and lastly many because they do not love the Truth.

                  Maani I will pray for you
                  and May God keep you from
                    the comming storm.
                    truthoverlies

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By Trithoverlies, December 31, 2008 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

To Rogue Mahoni, eileen fleming and I.M.Small

Your Liberal ignorance and antisementic predjudice is showing but it is not only you but a lot of liberals raised with the Palestinian lie on the lips given to them by the Father of Lies to spread their venomious hatred against the Jews and Christians.  The truth is they had partial control over the borders of gaza until the Hamas Terrorist Government they vote overwhelmingly for took control and kidnapped an Israeli soldier and began lobing Rockets into school yards in Israel so please keep spreading your lies so that the whole world will believe it and start the Real Final Solution that Hitler only hinted at.  Woe to the Liberals who call bad good and good bad read the book the Revelation of Jesus Christ 6-18 and pay particular care to read
and remember every time the phrase those who dwell on the earth occurs and what is said to them.

            May God bless and Keep you from
              the trevails that will soon
            overtake those who dwell on the
                      earth.
                    Truthoverlies

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By radson, December 31, 2008 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

Interesting point of view as is the norm from Robert Fisk,but i believe that the majority of people are missing the crux of the Palestian and Israeli struggle. This unfortunate situation dates back to 1948 and the expulsion through the use of terror of the Palestians from their homes by the secular Zionists.As the years went by and the various wars were fought anti-semetism came to symbolize the raison d’etre of the Israeli struggle for survival and a recognition of the Jewish State.This in turn has led the Zionists to fulfill their dream of a greater Israeli State in the Levant but at the expense of the Palestians and the wrath of the Arabs.Many of the Zionist leaders were at one time considered as Ashkanazi jews which inhabited what was once eastern Poland.After having been manipulated by the Soviet way of thought,many amongst them adopted the Soviet Realpolitic and emmigrated to Zion.This has unfortunately kept the desire of aggrandizement alive ,but the conundrum remains as to how to displace the Palestians from their homes without causing an international uproar

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By dihey, December 31, 2008 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

T. E. Lawrence “of Arabia” despaired because what he called “the Arab Tribes” would not collaborate to defeat the Turkish army. It is not much different today except that T. E.’ “Tribes” are big Arab States now. Other than that they do not collaborate but fight one another. The shit will hit the fan only when they stop doing that.

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By PogueMahone, December 31, 2008 at 8:41 am Link to this comment

Cyrena,

I did get an automated response from my HR rep, Dan Lungren, who voted lock step with Bush on everything from pro Iraq to anti children’s health care.

I agree with you on Boxer, she is excellant. Feinstein, however, is another matter entirely.  I will never vote for her again, so hopefully we can be rid of her.

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By Leefeller, December 31, 2008 at 6:41 am Link to this comment

Cringing to lies

The only part of what makes any sense of events happening in the Middle east is they have been fighting since the dawn of mankind, differences; no matter how small, turn into a love of hate.

Tao Walker is on the money with his post, only way to maintain sanity is to ignore the siren of the imbeciles.

Life is too short to live, cringing to lies.

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By Maani, December 30, 2008 at 10:10 pm Link to this comment

Omniadeo:

Trust me, I know my history.  I did not suggest otherwise than what you say.  And I do not support most of what the Israeli government does and has done.

But I maintain that violence is not the answer since, historically, violence only begets more violence - and it is clear that violence has not solved the problem, nor will it.

As well, it is worth repeating what Truthoverlies notes: Hamas’ founding documents - its “constitution” - calls for the utter and complete obliteration of Israel.  No truces, no treaties, no autonomy, no two-state solution - NOTHING which includes the continued existence of the State of Israel.  (Truthoverlies notes that Hezbollah’s “constitution” is similar, though I am only familiar with Hamas’.)

How on God’s great earth can there EVER be a solution, or even an end to the violence, if the stated goal of one side - its very raison d’etre - is the absolute “destruction” of the other?

Peace.

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By cyrena, December 30, 2008 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

By PogueMahone, December 30 at 2:05 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

I wrote letters of protest to both of my US Senators here in CAULIFONIA, both of whom happen to be Jewish and my congressman, a fudamentalist Catholic.

Any bets they will hear me and act??

~~~
Well PogueMahone,

They will at least send you an automated response. (I didn’t know Barbara Boxer was Jewish, but then I guess I don’t care. She’s an excellent senator - and hopefully we’ll replace Feinstein next time around)

I don’t know who your fundamentalist Catholic Congressperson is, but we do have a few that have BEEN acting on this for ages. Check into Barbara Jackson-Lee. (SFO district, I don’t know the number) She’s been on it from day one.

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By Trithoverlies, December 30, 2008 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

C.J.
Get real innocents in Gaza they voted ovewhelmmingly to give a known Terorist organization the role of rulers.  they teach in their school Israel as Monkeys and pigs they watch telivision shows that glorifie murder and death and they go to bootcamp at age 10 so who is the innocent you mistakingly speak of not one of the terrorist of Gaza will ever lay down their hatred of the Jews until
the New Finnal solution is launched with the help of liberal bullcrapers like you
and I am sorry to offend you sensitivities but you don’t know dung from shinola so he is the truth you don’t want to grasp Hamas and Hezbollah both were launched with one goal in ind drive the dirty Jewish swine into the sea
and neither one of these socalled benevolence groups Hamas and Hezzbollah has renounced the total annihilation of
the jews and then they plan to go after all the Liberals, and Conservatives in Europe and America subdue us by the sword convert to our form of Islam or die
we will loose this war on civilization which Islamic extremist launched around 624 A.D. and has been fighting ever since
so go ahead people follow the liberal lie which leads to slavery or death or stop listening to their lies and become Americans again the poeple who left the cesspool called Europe and founded a New nation by the swet of their brow.  I am not glossing over the fact that some of the bad happened with good we live in a fallen world ruled by Humans inslaved by their passions notknowing truth and we did not treat the Native American well but you forget the atrocities preformed
on European Amricans and We did own slaves this practice did not stat in the south but in Boston Mass. in 1640 AD. so
stop acting high and mighty as if you are above Bias when the truth is that you have spewed bais filth taught to you by bias teachers and professors of the enilghtenment of the Marxist revolution.
The one Religious system that attempts to equalize people isthe one in which you and your seperationist are attempting to muzzle You will call Biblical Morality of the Early Christians which taught slave and master were equal and thatPaul told the master to treat the slave on equal footing now has this always been the case NO many times mens warped judgment has intruded and caused injustice but to blame it on the Church is like me blaming you for all the injuctices served up by men against the Native American o the Slave.
Chistianity teaches love yourenemy do good to those who spitefully use you and turn the other cheek now that is not what Islam or Hinduism or even real Buddhism teach so man is always trying to work his or her way to heaven blow yourself up while murdering a group of High Schoolstudents at a Pizza place, or the murder of children in the school in Russia, or the murder of 17 children under the age of 11 on the border with Lebonon or the Hindus who went on a murder spree in a province of India last week. I am fed up with you liberals one deminional mind set its all Americas fault what about the 700,000 the Sadam ordered murdered, or the Children and Innocent civilians being kidnapped and beheaded by the Taliban or the roadside bomb that killed 15 Children and their two teachers in Afghanistan twodays ago.
No Liberals forget theese terrorist atrocities but blame the American and British Governments saying such idoicy about torture Did you see true Evil in the murder of Nicholas Berg, or Navy Diver Robert Steadham, or the Wall Street Journal Reporter Behaeded I am so sorry that you seem to forgit that the true face of Evil was 19 Middle Eastern Men killing the pilots and flying three planes into the Twintowers and the Pentagon or the bruttal murder og women and children in the market in Mossil.

            Get the Truth Out.
              Truthoverlies.

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By TAO Walker, December 30, 2008 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Seems like Robert Fisk and others here’ve been around long enough by now to’ve figured out that lying, willfully inflicting “collateral damage,” and exercising their “divine right” to proudly ignore “....lessons of history,” are among the most seductive trappings of “power.”  How else, after-all, are “....your huddled masses” going to be shown their place….and kept cringing helplessly in it?

Those commenting here who’ve pointed-out that Israeli Zionists are just digging their own graves, get to the real core of what’s going on “over there.”  That those feckless idiots may also intend their crimes to be the proximate cause of all the rest of us being extinguished, too, only shows how deeply enmeshed they are in the terminal madness that has overtaken them.

This old Indian earlier put “the holy land” in quotes to suggest what Eso essentially reiterated below.  All land is holy.  Fraudulently trying to designate some part of it as being somehow more so than the rest, besides CONfusing domesticated peoples even more than they are anyway, has also had the pernicious effect of rendering everywhere else “fair game” for the rampant rape and ruin and murder that is the hallmark of the “civilized” world. 

Still, it looks like the religious and nationalist fanatics are hell-bent on forcing their god’s hand
here at THE END of Days.  It’s yet another measure of their self-inflicted degradation that they are being so self-righteously careless about what they’re wishing-for.

No need, Sisters and Brothers, to “go-down” with their titanic majesties’ sinking ship of damned fools.  Join us surviving free wild Human Beings in the neverending Song ‘n’ Dance of Life Herownself.

HokaHey!

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By omniadeo, December 30, 2008 at 7:51 pm Link to this comment

“...Perhaps you would be fine having rockets lobbed into your neighborhood on a continual basis…” Mani

And perhaps you would be fine with having your land stolen and all access—including for food and medicine—to where you live now controlled by the forces that stole it, along with your energy supplies.

Maani, study a little history. You act as if the Palestinians in Gaza have always lived there. Most of them have not. Most were forced out of Israel. Israel wil not be 100% safe until these people are gone and that is what Israel is doing: getting rid of them.

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By Paul, December 30, 2008 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It seems that Mr. Fisk will be much happier if Hamas manage to kill at least 300 Jews. The comparison of the IRA and Hamas is just wrong. Did IRA stated goal was the complete destruction of the UK and establishment of Catholic Halifat instead and did Ireland share this goal? Did Ireland ever attack UK or threat to attack and by the way I just forget, how many Indians were “blown from cannon” in cold blood after suppression of the Sepoy rebellion for each killed during the war British soldier?

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By Maani, December 30, 2008 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment

Diamond:

“This attack has been planned for six months and has nothing to do with the rockets which are in fact a minor annoyance…”

Tell that to the people in the towns that have been hit.  Indeed, for all we know, some of those people may even support Palestinian statehood, and be just as angry with the Israeli government as many of us are with OUR government.

Perhaps you would be fine having rockets lobbed into your neighborhood on a continual basis, especially if you had nothing to do with the reason they were being lobbed.

Peace.

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By Maani, December 30, 2008 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

Dick:

“Men never do evil so cheerfully and completely as when they do it from religious convictions.”

I’m not sure that Lenin, Stalin and Mao would agree with this.

Peace.

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By Volma, December 30, 2008 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

If the American Christian Zionist (AKA radical born Agains/Charismatics, Evangelicals, Radical Baptists, Fundamentalists, etc…)weren’t so brainwashed and radically bent on the Jews being the chosen people who after they retake Israel, will be the people who start Armageddon, and the second coming of Christ this would not be happening…How can the rest of us who do not want the world destroyed, who are not brainwashed, ignorant and hateful end this insanity? Israel is a radical Zionist religious state with some pretty crazy radical laws and crazy people running it…They have no regard for Palestinian lives, in reality even the radical Christian’s who enable Israel through American taxes, are heathens and infidels to Israelis. They are no different than Hamas, or the Taliban, they want control and dictate power/rule and anyone who is not living by this dictate are worthless, period….What a horrible horrible life, the people in the middle, who are just pawns, are murdered….And sad but true, it’s big money and power to corporate interests to keep the murders and conflicts alive…As long as the US has it’s allies like Israel, pointing their US made and paid for, nuclear missiles towards the oil baron countries, the oil and the profits will stay flowing…The Jews still play the martyrs, saying all who are against Israel’s blatant murders are antisemitic. But in truth, they have turned into the victimizers, the Nazi’s who are scapegoating and exterminating the innocents… They are so set in their reality, they know they are right, they use force, starvation and bombs in the name of their God…They are dangerous radicals, and so are any religious, political group that is bent on world domination, knowing their way is the only way…This is true evil on all sides with different agendas…

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By John R Bloxson Jr, December 30, 2008 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Socialist, Communist, and National Socialist this includes people like eileen fleming and Ctos.

When you continue to show your true ignorance of the truth by blaming Israel you also show your own antisematism.  Israel only imposed the blokade after Hamas broke the ceasefire by firing Rockets into Israel but you and your hate monger hord on the left would not know the truth if it came up and bit you on the nose, so stop hiding behind the fasade of caring for a non existant people who never owned a state or until the 1930’s were recognized as Egyptians, Syrians, Turks,  Hashmoneans and Arabs
not Palestinian not even the Ottomans called these nomadic peoples Palestinian so get rid of you foolish ignorence is bliss and step into the truth which is the only way to ever gain any Peace in the Middle East and tell the socalled Palestinian/Egyptian/Syrian/Arab/Hashmoneans to go back to Egypt, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia and Jordan, and Lebonon and to stop spewing their terrorist hate filled venom agaianst Israel in other words GO HOME it is not The Gaza Strip lie, or the We st Bank lie most of these terrorist were not even born in Gaza, or the East Bank but in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turky, Yeman, or another Middle Eastern Country.  Palestine for the Palestinian is a Modern Urban Myth that gained popularity in the Hate filled British protectorate of the Holy Lands under an antisematic British Military rule where a Jewish person who owned a shot gun could be imprissoned and Hung while the Mufti’s private 50,000 man terrorist force could walk the streets of the protectorate armed to the teeth and murder any Jewish person for even the lie offense of they looked at me wrong.  You show the ignorances of those who vomit out the same lie that some leftist hate filled professor, or teacher has given you with out the facts the truth you don’t want to hear in thios post Modern pluility that does not exist but in the minds of those who believe they have the right answer and you should listen to them only and accept their take as the truth even when it’s a lie.  Athiest only exist in their minds they have their selves as the personal God or the worship a failed political system called National Socialism AKa Democratic Socialism Marxism, Communism, or the Nazi’s. 

              Know the truth
              Truthoverlies

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By PogueMahone, December 30, 2008 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I wrote letters of protest to both of my US Senators here in CAULIFONIA, both of whom happen to be Jewish and my congressman, a fudamentalist Catholic. 

Any bets they will hear me and act??

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By KDelphi, December 30, 2008 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment

Checking cookies

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By al, December 30, 2008 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

yes David Dixit, when will the Arab world do something concrete for the Palestinians other than send in more guns and explosives. And when will the Palestinians accept that the Israelis HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT to life as the Palestinians do. Maybe the UN should cede Gaza to Israel so they can build to the ocean.Is this a continuation of the Crusades, Google it.“recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule” RECAPTURING

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By godistwaddle, December 30, 2008 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Had we established Israel in Delaware, rather than dispossessing Palestinians to establish it, Delawarians would now be acting like Hamas, I’ll betcha.

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By eileen fleming, December 30, 2008 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

In 2005 I wrote the following RE: Gaza
excerpted from “KEEP HOPE ALIVE”
Chapter 14: 9/11/05 AND THE GULFPORT BLUES

 

“And, what a farce the so-called disengagement in Gaza was. The Israeli government still controls all access to Gaza by land, sea, and air. Bargouthi documented that only 25 of over 150 settlements will be dismantled, and only 8,475 of over 436,000 settlers [less than 2 percent of settlers] have been evacuated. Meanwhile, in the past year, 12,800 new settlers have moved into the West Bank — 50 percent more settlers than were evacuated.”


“This is no withdrawal, this is BS! Until Palestinians have control of Gaza’s borders and a guaranteed passage between Gaza and the West Bank, it is not a withdrawal; it’s just BS propaganda! And Gaza is less than 6 percent of the occupied territories, and that leaves 94 percent of Palestinian territories under the boot of the IDF. The corruption in the PA government and hot tempers from those under occupation are a powder keg that’s getting ready to blow! What’s it going to take to wake the world up to the fact that most of our problems with radical Islamist fundamentalist militants leads us back to the conflict in Israel and Palestine? All roads do indeed lead to Jerusalem. What’s it going to take before the International community gets it together and insists, in unity, upon the upholding of international law as the rule we all live by? And that includes Israel and America, too, for both ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I wonder, what’s the point of signing on, but then not doing it?


“What’s it going to take to wake up the legions of blind U.S. Christian Zionists to their indifference to the misery of their sisters and brothers in Israel and Palestine? Their blind allegiance to the Israeli government has allowed our best friend in the world to become a big bully. What’s it going to take to break through the ignorance that hard-earned U.S. tax dollars are being used to continue the occupation and apartheid wall?”


Minute Message to Hillary and USA Christians RE: The Apartheid Wall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgofYd9dh9A&eurl=http://www.change.org/ideas/view/being_hope_and_change

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By eileen fleming, December 30, 2008 at 10:54 am Link to this comment

In 2005 I wrote the following RE: Gaza
excerpted from “KEEP HOPE ALIVE”
Chapter 14: 9/11/05 AND THE GULFPORT BLUES

 

“And, what a farce the so-called disengagement in Gaza was. The Israeli government still controls all access to Gaza by land, sea, and air. Bargouthi documented that only 25 of over 150 settlements will be dismantled, and only 8,475 of over 436,000 settlers [less than 2 percent of settlers] have been evacuated. Meanwhile, in the past year, 12,800 new settlers have moved into the West Bank — 50 percent more settlers than were evacuated.”


“This is no withdrawal, this is BS! Until Palestinians have control of Gaza’s borders and a guaranteed passage between Gaza and the West Bank, it is not a withdrawal; it’s just BS propaganda! And Gaza is less than 6 percent of the occupied territories, and that leaves 94 percent of Palestinian territories under the boot of the IDF. The corruption in the PA government and hot tempers from those under occupation are a powder keg that’s getting ready to blow! What’s it going to take to wake the world up to the fact that most of our problems with radical Islamist fundamentalist militants leads us back to the conflict in Israel and Palestine? All roads do indeed lead to Jerusalem. What’s it going to take before the International community gets it together and insists, in unity, upon the upholding of international law as the rule we all live by? And that includes Israel and America, too, for both ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I wonder, what’s the point of signing on, but then not doing it?


“What’s it going to take to wake up the legions of blind U.S. Christian Zionists to their indifference to the misery of their sisters and brothers in Israel and Palestine? Their blind allegiance to the Israeli government has allowed our best friend in the world to become a big bully. What’s it going to take to break through the ignorance that hard-earned U.S. tax dollars are being used to continue the occupation and apartheid wall?”


Minute Message to Hillary and USA Christians RE: The Apartheid Wall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgofYd9dh9A&eurl=http://www.change.org/ideas/view/being_hope_and_change

 

 

e
http://www.wearewideawake.org

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By Ctos, December 30, 2008 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

Michelle,

Every time the Palestinians have tried peaceful negotiations, the Israelis prod them into violence through attacks, blockades, land theft etc.

If the Palestinians lay down their arms they will not have peace, they will have slavery and subjugation.

Your BS might fly if it were not for the long historical record of Israeli violence and duplicity.

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By Allan Krueger, December 30, 2008 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

Time to pull the rug, our money and weapons out from under the Israelis! I know leaders on both sides are oblivious to the wishes of most of the citizens - sounds like BUSH, doesn’t it? This is the best argument for the separation of church and state!!!

I am too through, signing off on this barbarism! Obama needs to set them straight - to hell with the Jews who think they control this country!

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By irfan, December 30, 2008 at 6:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel’s air strikes"have killed at least 270 people so far, injured more than 1,000, many of them seriously, and many remain buried under the rubble so the death toll will likely rise,” Phyllis Bennis of the Institute for Policy Studies pointed out on Sunday, two days into Israel’s attack while rocket from gaza killed only one person in Israeil..
the White House signaled its further backing of the Israeli attacks. As much of the world has called for both sides to cease attacks Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reiterated the US position that the Hamas is solely responsible for the violence.
U.S. government provides Israel with billions of dollars and invaluable “diplomatic” support
What’s going on in Gaza right now is not just an eye for an eye. It’s a hundred eyes for an eye. And the current slaughter is not only an ongoing Israeli war crime. It has an accomplice named Uncle Sam.

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By Alastair, December 30, 2008 at 3:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I travel to Israel frequently and my taxi driver told me there would shortly be war with Hamas when I was there a few months ago! Honestly, everybody in Israel knew this was coming. Israeli politics is a complex thing but attacking “militants” or “terrorists” always seems to be popular. Oddly, when I ask the average Israeli how this is going to produce a good outcome, they have no idea. In fact, they see no end in sight at all.

Historical precedents would suggest that this will eventually only work one of two ways:
(1) Israel kills or drives out the vast majority of Palestinians (American Indian model)
(2) Israel gets so sick of killing and being seen as monsters that they decide they actually can stomach dealing with “terrorists” and agree a permanent solution. (Northern Ireland model)

I favor the 2nd option, how about you?

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By Eso, December 30, 2008 at 1:35 am Link to this comment

@ TAO Walker
I have been saying what you said (below) all along. Talk will not get us out of the mess. Still, it will take a total catastrophe before anyone does what we know must be done. One thing that I differ on is on there being a “Holy Land”. I think this is a continuation of an ongoing Crusade (since the 13th century) to persuade us that there is a Holy Land where THEY say it is. Mine is right here where I am at. Anyway, back to your statement…..

RE:..........When the machinery of mass murder and mayhem becomes not only “funded” all-but limitlessly, but fully institutionalized, it takes-on a ruthlessly vicious “presence” the operations of which cannot be stopped except by voluntary Human sacrifices commensurate with the magnitude and purposes of the damned thing itself.  There is not going to be any “easy-way-out” of the self-inflicted predicament homo domesticus is enmeshed-in today.  Awful as it is, the carnage in “the Holy Land” is a mere side-show next to the auto-piloted “main event” already beginning its final assault on the rest of the “civilized” world…..

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By CJ, December 30, 2008 at 12:27 am Link to this comment

Of course what Israel’s government has been doing for four decades is an ongoing crime, presented in American mainstream media as in the interest of Israeli “national security.” Not at all different from how whatever the U.S. does is excused as necessary to “national security,” without doubt the single most obscene phrase ever coined using two or more words. Don’t look for anyone to sue government and media, much less pundits, for pimping in the obscene extreme.

There is no ongoing event that so exposes media for pimps as what is claimed by same media to be “conflict” between Israel and Palestine. What “conflict”? That term presupposes some measure of equality of strength. Palestinians are no more capable of engaging IDF in “conflict” than was Revolutionary Guard the U.S. Army, Air Force and Marine Corps.” (Goodman had on close-up photos this morning of Israeli tanks bristling with machine guns and assorted other more mysterious equipment all surrounded by armor that no pop-bottle rocket could possibly penetrate. What IS it like to enter into “conflict” when enemy is sitting ducks in the form of unarmed women and children when not barely armed men and boys, the latter just old enough to have learned the meaning of dignity?)

But we have progressed, come a long way since armies confronted one another atop green pastures between wooded areas, troops in front kneeling so that the troops behind could fire muskets and cannon over kneelers at enemies arranged the same way. They died horribly en masse at places like Waterloo and Gettysburg.

Then “Vishnu become death” at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now-on an albeit smaller scale—helicopters and tanks piloted by techno-military very comfy in coats of armaments. For purposes of “national security.”

Nope; not even close: For purposes of acquisition of valuable real estate and cut-rate labor, up to and including slavery still to be found and exploited most everywhere around the globe. For the sake of power whose power stems from accumulated wealth, which is loaned out at usurious interest rates. In full knowledge that by doing so they can both profit and pacify. Brilliant. Got to hand it to ‘em. They know how to steal and how to buy off.

Obama demurred while Pelosi expressed undying support for Israeli state. One wonders if it’s not true that satellite is tail that wags planet dog. Nothing so idealistic. 

Big media, needless to note, spent the day “reporting” on events in ongoing attempt to garner ever larger audiences (ratings). This time via appeal to American-Israeli nationalism. Not failing to note, as always, that big, bad, terror-mongering Hamas is entirely to blame for Israel’s horrifying plight, besieged as the state is by pop-bottle rockets, actually launched in the most pathetic attempt at retaliation for Israeli government’s merciless brutality perpetrated over six decades. (While Arab leaders sit by witnessing Arab nationalism that serves to distract from the patent fact of their own gross corruption.)

But settle down, for Israel is but American outpost in the Middle East, believed necessary garrison in the event of…whatever. Who the hell knows anymore? Ideology finally becomes end in itself, serving no interest other than perpetuation of ideology. Which is still rewarding to the few. That and—for Democratic Party—securing American Jewish vote.

If any pol gave a shit about our actual security, we’d have gotten single-payer healthcare and banking regulation decades ago, paid for with peace dividend that never appeared. What was to have been is still handed out to manufacturers of instruments intended only for murdering “menacing” others, precisely on behalf of the most irrational, cringing nonsense that passes for justification/excuse for ongoing abuse of other human beings as power persists in ceaseless pursuit of the cruelest, most ruthless, most mean of most selfish ends.

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By cyrena, December 29, 2008 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment

Anyone who expects Bush to do anything, must be blind. Bush has about as much power as Louis XVI! The UN has comdemned it.

~~~

Good one KDel. Anyone who thinks that this isn’t exactly what Dick Bush has willingly ORCHESTRATED for the past 8 years must be a blind deaf mute, or maybe in a coma. You say Bush has no power? WRONG. (guess you’ve been in a coma as well).

Dick Bush has had enough power to create more damage than any other administration in the history of the US, all with the stroke of a pen. And until Jan 21st, they are the ONLY ones with that power.

So, you want Obama to call a PRESS CONFERENCE??????

Sure, that’ll fix it.

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By Avid, December 29, 2008 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

If any one lives in Connecticut or nearby, I am protesting the violence against Gaza in New Milford Connecticut at the Green at 1pm

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By KDelphi, December 29, 2008 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Tony—I think they are referring to statements already made by Obama, as well as some on talk shows by Axelrod, and others. The MSM is saying that Obama is “echoing the WH” on this. He is having conferences with Rice.

Now, if he wants to send a different message, I am sure that the press would oblige him! All he has to do is get off the beach and call a press conference.

Fadel—Thanks—I gave a link to it earlier—I got that, too. It has a petitoin , and, emails to send to Bush, PE Obama and your rep.

Anyone who expects Bush to do anything, must be blind. Bush has about as much power as Louis XVI! The UN has comdemned it. The Vichy Dems say nothing. We must put pressure on them. Most of all, we HAVE to STOP selling Israel all these illegal weapons!

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By Tony Wicher, December 29, 2008 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

By dihey, December 29 at 3:08 pm #

If Mr. Obama ever had any notions of changing U.S. policy in the Near East, and I believe he never had such intentions, this attack has pulled the rug from under his wobbly feet. The man acts like a political drunk, drunk on power that is.
—————————————————————————-
What the hell? The man hasn’t even been inaugurated yet, and already he’s drunk on power?

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By Fadel Abdallah, December 29, 2008 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

As a subscriber and donor to “Jewish Voice For Peace” I received a message, part of which is posted below. What a difference between those noble and judicious Jews and the Zionist terrorists running the state of Israel and formally supported by the ever great Satan Bush and and the minor Christian Zionists “Satans” like Trithoverlies who just posted below!
================================================
“The news about the attacks in Gaza is beyond words. “Appalling” doesn’t even come close.”

“U.S.-supplied Israeli F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters have fired missiles and dropped over 100 tons of bombs on dozens of locations in the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip.  Over 300 people are dead and at least 1,400 more are injured. Many if not most of them are civilians.  Food and medicine were already in short supply in Gaza and all medical facilities have been completely overwhelmed by this onslaught. Access to Gaza has been cut off by Israel.”

“This is the most violent and heartbreaking situation that has happened to the Palestinians in recent history, and it must stop. In addition to calling for protests at Israeli consulates and federal buildings, as well as letters to the U.S. and Israeli governments, Jewish Voice for Peace staff and members are already putting together an aggressive campaign focused on Gaza. And, without a moment to waste, we call for an immediate end to attacks on all civilians.”

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By Trithoverlies, December 29, 2008 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

This is to all the yellow journalist, and the leftest.

No Hamas is not like The IRA who only fought for 300 years before finily becomming wise and chose to negotiations.  The differance is that The IRA just wanted the Brits out of Norther Ireland and the Republic arrested and detained members of the IRA.  Hamas has fired rockets into Israel since its inception and is part of one of the biggest lies ever pulled off before the 1930’s their was no Palestinian from the conquest of the Ottomans on there was no palistinians the Turks recognized Arabs as having come from the Hashimites the Egyptians the Arabian penensula, but no Palestinian State has ever existed but not just one but 3 Jewish States have existed.  Hamas a Terrorist organization will never negotiate with the Jewish people so again the writter plays fast and loose with his subject In 1917 The Balfoure Agreement made A two State solution on the west side of the Jordan a New people would be recognized the Palestinians or the Hashimite peoples. and on the East side of the Jordan the Jewish State of Israel would be reformed after having been stolen by the Assyrians, Babolonians, Persians, Greeks. Syrians, Romans, Byzantine, and Muslims namely the Mamuluk, Selujeck,and Ottamon Turks. But in that long line of names their was and is still today No Palestine as a nation why becuase it is a fiction born in the Head of the Muftee of Jerusalem around 1930, and populerized with the Help of Hitler, Mussolini, and the British Military, and the news media.  Hamas has continually refussed to recognize Israels right to exist, and still want so is it right to blame Israel who has bent overbackwars since 1948 to achieve a real Peace or should we blame the real conspiritors of Hate the Terrorist of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Al-Aqusa Martyrs Brigade with their close terrorist Buddies Iran.  So please becom aware that Hamas weaves only lies, and we know from Jesus Christ who is Hamas’s Father the Father of Lies, Murder and Hate Lucifer, AKA Satan.
              Sincerly
              Truthoverlies.

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By P. T., December 29, 2008 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

The Gazan rocket attacks have nothing to do with Israel’s massacre of Palestinians.  Hamas made clear it would accept a ceasefire if Israel also did and ended the siege.

This thing is about Israel and the U.S. trying to kill Palestinians so that they will turn against Hamas and try to overthrow it.  However, the indigenous Palestinian people are not cooperating.

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By Michele, December 29, 2008 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

When everyone has finished lamenting Israel’s “crimes against humanity” and their ham fisted over-reactions, there’s still no getting past the fact that there is NOTHING happening on the other side.

This suggests that the Palestinians are either NOT interested in peace and a two-state solution (certainly true of Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and others not mentioned) or, the ones who ARE interested have no ability to gain control of the actual strategy and tactics.  This is most likely because they lack the kind of funds that are funneled by sympathizers to Hamas, as well as the likelihood that if one of their own were perceived as willing to negotiate with the “zionist enemy”, he would be killed ipso facto. 

Starting with the late Arafat’s “from the river to the sea” statement about eradicating Israel (leaving no room for negotiation, obviously) to the more recent “Wipe Israel from the map” statement made by Iran’s Ahmadinejad (whose country helps fund Hamas), the Palestinians have left no room for doubt regarding where they stand on the concept of a peace process let alone a two-state process. Hamas controls the Gaza, and Hamas is not willing to negotiate with Israel, PERIOD. For that matter, Hamas isn’t even willing to negotiate with Fatah.  Discouraging, yes.  Surprising, no.

To paraphrase kiwi David White, Palestinians deserve better than the current mess they are in now - but before they can achieve anything as a people, they must agree to a sincere peace; they must stop teaching their children to hate; they must stop believing that “victimhood” justifies everything including genocide (that’s what suicide bombing is, and the deliberate targeting of civilians IS genocide no matter how or with whom you compare it) and above all other things, Palestinians must agree to GIVE UP ISRAEL.  It is time to accept the verdict of 1948 and learn to live with it, nay, move forward with it.  Palestinians and their sympathizers must invest in banks, not bombs. Build computer chips, not Kalashnikovs. Teach science and mathematics, not hate. Look to the future, not the past. Stop blaming Americans and Jews for all their problems, and take responsibility for their own actions. Read those parts in the Quran about living with the “peoples of the Book”. 

The alternative to peace is not victory, it is death. And the bottom line has always been this:  if Palestinians lay down their arms, they will get a nation-state.  If Israelis lay down their arms, they will be killed. 

You do the math.

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By mill, December 29, 2008 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

White House blamed Hamas for all this today.

Truth is, there are atrocities committed on many sides in this region, certainly by Hamas and Israel

Many posters have identified the enduring, burning difficult issues that, regardless of how tough, must be resolved for peace to break out. 

Having the Bush White House pick only on Hamas doesn’t help us create peace in Iraq, or Afghanistan. Or Gaza or the West Bank either. Quite the contrary.

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By Alan MacDonald, December 29, 2008 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama and the Democrats are not going to do anything, we have to solve this.

This will be stopped by anti-war, anti-empire protests the world over.

As Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri would say, the “Multitude” of peace-seeking people world-wide will force an end to this mis-guided militarist action of empire.

The global ruling-elite ‘corporate financial Empire’ in the US & elsewhere will not be able to launch another ME war (as Bush did in 2003)!

The vast majority of anti-war Israelis are no different than the vast majority of anti-war Americans, both of whom are no longer in control of their countries—- now ruled by empire.

The real battle, the real need for revolution, is for the majoritarian “Multitude’ of Israelis and Americans to excise this ‘Vichy’ empire and re-establish their self-governance as democratic republics.

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By KDelphi, December 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

Ed—Yes, “With Strikes, Israel Reminds Foes It Has Teeth”. by Ethan Bronner

No, they just bit its “foes” heads off—-theyve been gnawing away on them for years, especially lately.

Its disgusting. This is so obviously politically motiovated.

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By Ed Harges, December 29, 2008 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

Today’s NY Times headline was breathtaking. It was something like, “Israel shows the enemy that it has teeth”.

The implication is that Israel has been really nice up till now.

Um - excuse me? The grotesquely cruel blockade of food and medicine, anybody? That was Israel being nice? “Toothless”?

Israel is loathsome and murderous to its core. I’m sure the Palestinians didn’t just discover that as a result of Israel’s current assault.

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By KDelphi, December 29, 2008 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

dihey—Jewish groups that stand for peace agree with you. antiwar.org, justforeignpolicy.org, Jewish Voices for Peace.

Well, they are not all Jewish…most are not.

If the US stands by on this one, we will lose any “moral authority” we have left…if we havent already. MSNBC now says that the “US didnt cause it”, so , shouldnt be blamed, I guess.


When they pull that shrapnel out of the places Israelis bomebed, and they find a US flag on it….(like the “American” dating and lettering they found on bombs, supposedly made by Iran—can you say Iran/Contra?), we had better be ready for allies to pull out of Afghanistan.

We should leave, anyway…

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, December 29, 2008 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

December 29, 2008

Before Our Very Eyes

Israel’s Attempted Endgame in Gaza

By JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN

“The intensity of the bombings on Saturday, which left over 230 people dead and 800 wounded, many seriously, was what struck one witness, R., who claimed never to have heard so many explosions so close together and for such an uninterrupted period of time inside the Gaza Strip. One after another, the explosions sounded, most of them near heavily populated areas; and in one case only 30 meters away from his daughter’s elementary school.

The bombings were timed to cause the maximum number of “enemy” casualties. They occurred at approximately 11:20am on a bustling Saturday morning, just as schools were changing shifts and many children were either leaving for home or coming to afternoon classes; when offices were filled with their employees, and streets busy with the late morning crowds out getting lunch or on quick errands of one sort or another. The day before, Israel had opened some of the crossings into Gaza to let in another trickle of humanitarian aid. ‘See how generous we are to our enemy!’ they exclaim with straight faces to the international media. Each time Gaza reaches the brink of starvation and ruin, they let in just enough food and supplies to silence potential critics. Then the next round begins. It is hardly surprising. After all, this policy was outlined publicly by Dov Weisglass not so long ago when he promised that Israel would put Gaza on a punishing “starvation diet” until it saw reason and evicted its democratically elected government. Many people, including members of the Hamas government, believed that reopening the crossings to international aid signaled another brief lull in military activity, as it usually had, while the IDF General staff prepared its next offensive. In this way were the people and government of Gaza unprepared for the next day’s slaughter

The deliberate ploy to strike at midday when the collective population of Gaza had let down its guard for a few short hours had its intended effect. One of the deadliest massacres in the history of Israel’s occupation of Palestine followed as F-16 fighter jets, helicopter gun ships, tanks, armored vehicles and pilot-less drones closed in on the Gaza Strip.  By Monday morning over 300 people were dead and 1000 injured. Hospitals were overflowing with the seriously wounded; the morgues with the dead for whom they had insufficient refrigeration. Insufficient medical personnel, equipment, supplies and services raised the likelihood of many more dying in their overused beds waiting for the help and attention they would never get. The taxi driver R. hailed to get him to his daughter’s school as quickly as possible after those first strikes had begun initially refused, staring in shock as columns of smoke rose from brand new layers of debris.”

“In the course of a few short hours American-made, Israeli-flown fighter jets had successfully blotted out the lives of more than 230 people and by the end of the weekend over 300, the rough equivalence of two fully packed IMAX theaters. At least 70 of the victims were civilians, a number of them young children. A mother in Rafah bent over the corpses of her three dead children screaming, unable to stop, horrified eye witness T., who wrote up the day’s events as if the formal documentation of an overpowering human event could serve as a form of catharsis.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the rest of Israel’s Nazi regime & its TRAIL OF GENOCIDE…click on URL:

http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein12292008.html

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By dihey, December 29, 2008 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

Everyone who mistakenly believes that Hamas has started this round of killing please read on because you are absolutely wrong.

On the night of the U.S. election, Israel fired missiles on Gaza that were aimed at closing down a tunnel operation they believed Hamas was building in order to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The carnage left in the wake of Israel’s bombing of Gaza over the past six weeks has killed dozens of Palestinians.

The bombing “on the night of the U.S. elections” broke the truce.

Just as the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens supports “Likud” the overwhelming majority of the citizens of Gaza support “Hamas”. It is for this reason that I will from now on use phrases such as “Gaza has the right to prevent Israel from sending missiles into its territory because it believed…..”. Since when is “believing” a justification for aggression? Ah, right, Iraq!

Mr. Raymondo on Antiwar.com who is sometimes over the top has nailed this one down in my opinion. The Israeli attack on Gaza is all about local politics, the locations being Tel Aviv/Jerusalem and Washington. If Mr. Obama ever had any notions of changing U.S. policy in the Near East, and I believe he never had such intentions, this attack has pulled the rug from under his wobbly feet. The man acts like a political drunk, drunk on power that is.

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By KDelphi, December 29, 2008 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

diamond—-How horrible, horrible , horrible!! This is about what most “peace” sites are saying…Israel has pretty much admitted that they intend genocide.

It is NOT OK for Obama to be silent on this…

Everyone, who can, should try to go to a protest tomorrow—they are all over the country. I am going to try (its four hours away)

Lists of actions are at justforeignpolicy.org.

I know that it wont stop Israel, but, if anyone knows of anything else (already posted the petitions) please let us know.

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By brewerstroupe, December 29, 2008 at 4:00 pm Link to this comment

Why do the Palestinians continue to fire rockets?

On the face of it, the weakest nation in the World firing rockets at one of the strongest would seem to be the action of madmen. So why do it?

For decades, Israel’s policy has been to subsidize immigrants to go settle in occupied territory. This is called “creating facts on the ground” and is a War Crime under the Geneva Convention - see:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/boyle.html
It has been going on for a long time:

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either….There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
-Moshe Dayan, April 1969.

Palestinians have only one way to slow this process down and that is to counter the Israeli Government’s subsidies and incentives by making settlement appear to be a hazardous enterprise and discouraging prospective settlers from taking them up. Hence the rockets. Long-term observers will note that whenever a truce or concession is granted by Israel, the pace of settlement goes up. In this way, Israel uses settlers as an instrument of War.
Rightly or wrongly, Palestinians do not see settlers as innocent civilians, they see them as complicit in a War Crime.

Wouldn’t it have been smarter if Hamas extended the ceasefire?

No. All it brought them was the strangulation of Gaza. If you take the time to read “Gaza Bombshell”, http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
... you will see very clearly that Israel is trying to edge Hamas out and boost their puppet Abbas.

I doubt very much that they will succeed short of a genocide because the basic difference between Hamas and Abbas is that Hamas will not give in on two principles. One is recognition of Israel as a Jewish State This is important because, the way Israel phrases it, it means the Palestinians give up all claim to compensation for the property lost during the Naqbah. The second is the pre 1967 borders. Abbas is already bought and will sell both of these claims down the river.

Why do Hamas say:
“initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. “

It is Hamas articulating what everybody knows - Israel does not want peace, it wants territory. 60 years of peace conferences have seen the Palestinian territory whittled away piece by piece, settlement by settlement. It is also saying that there is no point in negotiating with a State that has ignored the directives of the international community.
Let us be absolutely clear. Israel is in breach of at least 65 U.N. resolutions pertaining to the rights of Palestinians, most importantly, Resolution 194 which is also enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions.

People who take Howard’s position remind me of the attorneys who take up the cause of a criminal who, subsequent to holding up a liquor store and shooting the proprietor and a few bystanders, sues the policeman who fired a bullet in his leg to subdue him.

There is no way you can divorce Hamas’ resistance from the enormous crime that has been done to the Palestinians. Even if all the Zionists allege the Arabs have done to them were true, (and little of it is) nothing excuses their refusal to allow the victims of warfare back to their homes and property and/or compensation for their loss. After all, Germany has allowed both the right of return as well as paying compensation to this very day for over a million “holocaust survivors”.

This is the nub of the problem. If Israel had dealt to it, they might have some moral stance from which to negotiate.

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By P. T., December 29, 2008 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

For those who would like to help, Professor Sara Roy of Harvard says Care International has gotten some medicine into Gaza.

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By diamond, December 29, 2008 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

If you listened to Livni (ex-Mossad) and Barak (ex-terrorist and Mossad)and Benji N.(perpetual monster) yes, the attack on Gaza would seem like madness. But, of course, they’re lying. This attack has been planned for six months and has nothing to do with the rockets which are in fact a minor annoyance when compared with what Israel can do to civilians. No, this is all about the Israeli election. And the horror of it is, that if Benji gets elected he will make what’s happening in Gaza look like a polite garden party with cups of tea and dainty cakes. As usual this attack was launched when the children were coming out of school to cause maximum casualties. The Israelis don’t care how many young Palestinians die because they’ll never grow up to breed and there are too many of them anyway for their liking. If they don’t kill them now they’ll only have to kill them later, that’s the policy. This is also about revenge. When the IDF came up against tough, trained and armed men in Lebanon they folded like umbrellas, even though they used their cluster bombs and some new horror weapon that burns people alive without leaving burns, a weapon that no one who saw the bodies could identify(thank you CIA) they still lost. The reason they lost was that the goal was completely unrealistic: to destroy Hezbollah. Hezbollah wasn’t in the mood to be destroyed, thank you very much and even if they had been another group would have sprung up in their place. They can’t destroy Hamas either because their own cruelty and despotism created both these groups and as long as that continues Hezbollah and Hamas or a group like them will be around. The only way that Israel can now accomplish it’s goal is ethnic cleansing which is another word for genocide which is another world for mass murder. If they gave the Palestinians their own sovereign state all this horror would end but they intend to drive every last Palestinian out and take the land. If Benji wins that’s exactly what they’ll do. Imagine how ghastly the situation of the Palestinians is: their only hope is Livni who is having them slaughtered in Gaza at this very moment.

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