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May 19, 2013
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Obama Embraces the MilitaryPosted on Dec 9, 2008In naming retired Gen. Eric K. Shinseki as veterans affairs secretary, President-elect Barack Obama made what may be the most politically and morally significant choice of his transition. Politically, Obama has been moving aggressively to close a wide gap between Democrats and the military—and particularly between the party and the officer corps—that began growing in the Vietnam era. Shinseki’s appointment can be seen as one of several steps the incoming president has taken to win respect and trust within the armed forces. Obama’s decision to keep Robert Gates as defense secretary and his choice of retired Marine Gen. James Jones as White House national security adviser are of a piece in sending a strong, sympathetic signal to the uniformed services. Morally, Shinseki’s appointment marks the vindication of a man who was punished for telling the truth in the run-up to the Iraq war. As the Army’s chief of staff, Shinseki famously told Congress in February 2003 that “several hundred thousand soldiers” would be needed to stabilize Iraq. A month before the Iraq invasion, he predicted that because of “ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems,” it would take “a significant ground force presence to maintain a safe and secure environment.” Advertisement In naming Shinseki to lead the Department of Veterans Affairs, Obama implicitly set a high standard for himself by declaring that truth-tellers and dissenters would be welcome in his administration. There is a link between Shinseki’s prophetic courage and the opening Obama has with the military: The war in Iraq has had a decidedly different impact on the politics of the armed services than did the Vietnam War. Iraq has created a potential problem for Republicans because many in both the officer corps and the enlisted ranks were alienated by the way President Bush and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld handled the conflict, particularly in its early stages. After Vietnam, by contrast, many in the military blamed liberals and the left for failing to give them a chance to win a war in which they continued to see triumph as a possibility. Some opponents of the Vietnam War turned sharply on the military and “the war machine.” It remains a scandal that veterans of that conflict often bore the brunt of the war’s unpopularity when they returned home. In a seminal 1997 article in The Atlantic that addressed “The Widening Gap Between the Military and Society,” Thomas Ricks, a longtime Washington Post military affairs correspondent, found that officers disproportionately identified themselves as conservative Republicans. Ricks saw the “classic military values of sacrifice, unity, self-discipline, and considering the interests of the group before those of the individual” as being increasingly at odds with the values of a highly individualistic and increasingly fragmented society. The battle over the role of gays in the military at the outset of Bill Clinton’s presidency only deepened the divide that Ricks described. Obama, who promised repeatedly during his campaign to “turn the page” on past cultural and political divisions, has clearly set out to do precisely that where the military is concerned. He is building on a little-noticed veterans outreach effort launched by Nancy Pelosi before she became House speaker and spearheaded by her former aide Burns Strider. Democrats called attention to shortfalls in programs for veterans in Bush’s budgets and built new alliances with veterans organizations. The Shinseki appointment gives Obama a way to marry the Democrats’ twin critiques of the Bush past. The new president has sent a strong signal that he will listen more closely than his predecessor did to doubters and skeptics in the uniformed ranks. And by making an admired soldier responsible for helping veterans recover from their wounds and rebuild their lives, Obama aims to show that his party’s commitment to the needs of those who served their country was more than just campaign chatter. The 66-year-old Shinseki, who won two Purple Hearts during his service in Vietnam, has the opportunity to heal the social and political wounds of two wars: the one in which he fought decades ago, and the more recent conflict whose burdens he anticipated so clearly. E.J. Dionne’s e-mail address is postchat(at)aol.com. © 2008, Washington Post Writers Group New and Improved CommentsIf you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy. |
By Folktruther, December 15, 2008 at 11:24 am Link to this comment
That’s an interesting study, LSLarry. Also, I didn’t realize that the SWAT teams, etc began with the War On Drugs, which was directed against minorities. The Security state of the War On Drugs morphed easily into the racist War On Terrorism. The two are conflated in Latin Ameria, especially in Columbia and Mexico.
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, December 14, 2008 at 7:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
By Maani, December 13 at 7:29 pm #
LSL:
“Actually towns and cities without a police force tend to have lower crime rates.”
Please cite your support for this statement. THank you.
Peace.
\
...and what good would that do. you’d say I was taking the word of conservatives if I cited the Hoover institute, or you would say “the Left wing folks at Brookings were too ivory tower,
The study was from The University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign some time in the late 80’s when I was studying at Hofstra. It ws entitled “Urban policing in minority neighborhoods”, and I can’t find it on the internet…
It went even further than what I have previously indicated breaking down the crime statistics by offence, and compartmentalizing them into two sub groups violent and property. Violent crime was down by 7% with a 3+/- margin of error, and property was down a whopping 23%.
Funny that at a time that EVERYTHING is on the internet, this study is absent. BUT I notice that often happens when the police recieve criticism.
Stuff (and sometimes people) disappear.
Report thisBy Maani, December 13, 2008 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment
LSL:
“Actually towns and cities without a police force tend to have lower crime rates.”
Please cite your support for this statement. THank you.
Peace.
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, December 13, 2008 at 7:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
“Re police, are you suggesting that you honestly believe that the people of America would be successful in ‘policing themselves?’”
Actually towns and cities without a police force tend to have lower crime rates.
“Police” have become increasingly “paramilitary” since the 1970’s. It was the administration of Richard Nixon with help from Conservative Democrats (like Joe Biden) who begam militarizing the domestic police.
All done under cover from the “War on Drugs” which was in fact a war on our own youth.
Frankly as an old man, I prefer to take my chances with no police then to accept the level of hostility from the police we currently employ
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, December 12, 2008 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment
Saying I would be happy about 5 million Jewish deats is horrifying. I surely don’t expect an appology.
HOWEVER, I will appologize to you. I have examined your posts on this thread and others, and can find NO indication you favor military force against Palestine.
My interpretation of “NEVER AGAIN” is Never again for any group of people. Genocide is genocide.
*************************************************
LSL, you have my apology. We are finally on the same page. I want a fair, negotiated peace that allows BOTH Israelis and Palestinians to thrive. I believe it’s possible because I don’t believe two peoples can’t find a way to live in peace if they want it.
Report thisBy Maani, December 11, 2008 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
LSL:
Thank you for your measured comments, and the personal touch. We are actually in agreement re the military; indeed, your concept is somewhat Gandhian in nature, something I strongly support.
Peace. ( , man…)
Report thisBy Maani, December 11, 2008 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment
Folktruther:
“Obama’s security adviser, Bradden, has publically stated that it is a vital tool in the War On Terrorism.”
??? Who is “Bradden?” I have not seen that name anywhere, nor could I find it in relation to Obama in any search.
Obama’s national security appointments include Clinton (supports closing Gitmo and ending torture), Jones (same), Gates (same), Holder (same), Napolitano (same) and S. Rice (same). As well, his “informal” advisors include R. Clarke (same) and W. Clark (same).
Get your facts straight.
Peace.
Report thisBy Folktruther, December 11, 2008 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
The Bushites initiated a counter revolution in the US, from a bourgeois Democracy to legitimating a militaristic tyranny. The population was shocked and awed by the false flag operation 9/11-antrax, and conducted under the Israeli initiated ideology of a War On Terrorism.
Obama is continuing this coounter revolution. He is continuing the wars, the neoliberalism, and the Security oppression of the population. He has systematically reneged on progressive campaign promises and the Dems, such as Feinstein and Reyes, are reneging on eliminating torture. Obama’s security adviser, Bradden, has publically stated that it is a vital tool in the War On Terrorism.
Which it is, since this War is conducted against Muslim populations, and used to intimidate them. Both the Gop and Dem leaders are warterrorists and they can only be opposed by anti-warterrorists, who oppose the military, intelligence agencies, mercenaries, police and Home Security. These provide security for the power struture while making the population MORE fearful.
The War On Terrorism is a fraud. It justifies war against those Terrorists who are operatively defined as those who oppose US imperialism. Equivication on this complex of issues puts one in the Gop-Dem camp. Where mainstream progressives belong. The historical task now is to mobilize an anti-warterrorist coalition.
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, December 11, 2008 at 1:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Maani the “peace"man
“Do you believe that the U.S. should have no military at all?”
No you peaceful soul, I believe our military should take the form of “Coast guards” and Border patrol. I believe strongly in military, and personally served in Vietnam, Cambodia and Haiti. I believe that all of those “conflicts” were misbegotten attempts to make the world safe for US business people. I’m not willing to allow my son, or daughters to die for such a one-sided profit… I am absolutely positive we have no legitimate purpose in the Middle East.
Oh, BTW ITW I’m Jewish! Real last name Haasse. My parents fled Poland just before the boot came down.. Their parents (all four of them) were not so lucky.
Saying I would be happy about 5 million Jewish deats is horrifying. I surely don’t expect an appology.
HOWEVER, I will appologize to you. I have examined your posts on this thread and others, and can find NO indication you favor military force against Palestine.
My interpretation of “NEVER AGAIN” is Never again for any group of people. Genocide is genocide.
Report thisBy Libarchist, December 11, 2008 at 7:05 am Link to this comment
The military is a useless toy for cowards; and should be reduced and transformed.
___________________
Gandhi
Non-violence is the most powerful force in the universe.
Report thisBy Muscleboy, December 10, 2008 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment
War MUST Become a Thing of the Past
We must move, at a brisk pace- with good sense and care, to transition away from war and offensive systems toward an ever increasingly minimized defensive system in combination with constant efforts at peaceful solutions to disputes. The reasons we have gone to war and maintain such a large investment in waring are mostly to do with criminal greed and virtually nothing to do with any actual need for such a thing.
As technology has increased in methods of killing our fellow brothers and sisters so to has the likelihood of regional and global disaster resulting from such technological implementations. We have come to a point where this very system has endangered life and must therefore be shut down. We must move to institute all manner, though mostly very simple, changes to our sociological systems. We must work to set up transparent government that is not bribed in any way whatsoever- and that to some extent does fear the people.
We have the prosecutor in Chicago arresting a governor at 6 am at his home who merely stated the possibility of a crime. Yes I know solicitation of such a crime is itself also potentially a crime technically, however everyone that knows anything also knows full blown actual pay to play is a common feature of governmental operations in the USA, and the politicians actually are payed—they don’t just vent and joke about it. We need to go after the very root of these problems, which is legal bribery. That is payments, through all kinds of ways, from “benefiting parties” of governmental action to those elected by the people to serve them. We must clean up house- the way we do things completely, as well as establish robust international systems designed to create and spread joy and love on a global basis. One underlying method to remember is breaking up power so you have power and opinions broken up in smaller groups.
A case in point—even small towns like Palm Springs California, where a friend of mine found this out after she had a vacation to the desert where she noticed a house in a nice part of town that stood out as it had been spray painted by one of the many people in the desert, as it turns, who had been screwed by local realtors and mortgage brokers who took their money and gave them criminal loans which ended up costing many times the amount they thought they would. The story on the house said that three Palm Springs policemen came armed to the teeth kicked the door in and demanded to see if the dog had water. It was, according to the document she found on the door, a very typical practice of that supposedly justice service entity. Scary for people moving their for retirement. But it also shows how even small town power can go rotten without proper basic and logical rules. Upon additional research I found it was indeed a common experience, it is purported that the longer term land owners use there local police service to strong arm people who rent housing and business properties even those in poorly maintained condition. Who would even imagine?
We have the technology to eliminate use of fossil fuels and nuclear fission(requires uranium mining and horrendously dangerous). With windmills alone we could make 5 times the worlds need for all energy and battery powered cars could eliminated the pollution of cars and with careful organization will be like taking all the cars off the road, in terms of net energy usage. Just imagine Los Angeles post air pollution. It would be a magical place. The world is held hostage because we let a few people with a lot of money dictate everything about our lives. They are destroying the world for their own idiotic psychopathic greed. We must stop them. We can’t afford their way of doing things anymore. Radical but very very simple and sensible changes will make our world like Heaven.
Report thisBy Walter M, December 10, 2008 at 10:14 pm Link to this comment
Agreed, General Shinseki’s call for several hundred thousand troops to be deployed to Iraq was no overstatement. It was more likely an understatement. Are we to suppose that such a massive deployment would have mitigated the catastrophe of occupation and brought the war to a rapid happy ending?
There are retired senior military officers advising Obama who opposed the invasion before it happened (Zinni) and who in 2003 called the political basis of the Iraq War “corrupt and illegitimate” (McPeak) Where are they now?
Report thisBy Maani, December 10, 2008 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment
Folktruther:
“Right, Maani, not only almost no military, but almost no police, no mercenaries, no vigilantes, and militias controlled by the population.”
Re the military, how much is enough? And are YOU qualified to make that decision? If not, who is? Or who should?
Re police, are you suggesting that you honestly believe that the people of America would be successful in “policing themselves?” That is as absurd as having corporations do “self-regulation.”
“Instead of leading an arms race it should lead a de-arming race.”
On this we completely agree.
“Instead of demeaning and undercutting world institutions, it should support them.”
Again, we completely agree, especially if you talking about such things as the ICC.
“Instead of tyranizing the US and other populations, it the US power system should be afraid of its people.”
We agree on all but the last: I do not believe that the U.S. “power system” should “be afraid” of the people. Rather, they should simply re-learn their place - their Constitutional place - as true servants OF the people, to whom they owe their allegiance and dedication.
“This is exactly contrary to the Dem party and Obama, who is continuing the War On Terrorism of the Bushites. Until the US population demonstrates its opposition to WarTerrorism, it will continue to ground into the ground. The militarization has almost bankrupted the US, and Obama is in favor of increasing the military.”
Obama is in favor of “streamlining” the military. Increasing its numbers? Yes, in certain cases. And we can agree to disagree on the necessity and value of that. But the military includes more than just men and women in fatigues with guns. Just as Obama wants to go through federal programs one by one and “eliminate those that don’t work, and make those that do work more efficient,” he is looking to do the same with the military.
Nor has “militarization” almost “bankrupted the U.S.” This notion - that had we not gotten into the war, those hundreds of billions of dollars would necessarily have been put into the economy, thus preventing the economic crisis - has been debunked by dozens of the best economists: we would STILL have seen this crisis, and the money we spent on the war (though certain wasted) would have done VERY little to help.
Finally, as Muscleboy notes, your “reading” of Obama’s position on the “war on terror” is based on piecemeal evidence rather than a consistent and cohesive reading of Obama’s statements and positions.
Peace.
Report thisBy Muscleboy, December 10, 2008 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment
Careful
Folktruther…
President Obama is not following Bush’s war on terror. You are just cutting and pasting isolated sub clippings of reality without looking at the whole of what he states he is about to do. You are mostly focusing on a few sentences stated in the heat of an election during which the Republicons tried to stir up racial hatred of blacks and Arabs and paint Obama as some sort of terrorist loving unAmerican. This is the reality that you don’t care to speak.
You are trying not to do any work in finding out the real truth of what is about to happen under the new government. There is great reason to believe their will be vast improvements even if Obama were to go to the low levels of any of the worst of the presidents prior to Bush. But, as he stated today, he wants to “reboot his Image” among those harmed by Bush very much including Muslims even people today left or right wing call things like “Islamists” and “militants”, both horrifically uneducated neocon trash terms. If you look at what he’s saying on web sites like http://www.change.gov and analyse the entire body of what he is saying and has said and consider every possible explanation and motivational factors that might surround everything then you can say you are not being lazy and reckless. Otherwise you’re just serving your own ego.
As far as the Democrats and individuals I think we should make them CHANGE and be merciless about doing so but part of that is researching and carefully considering at least in hopes of making complete arguments.
Report thisBy Folktruther, December 10, 2008 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment
right, Maani, not only almost no military, but almost no police, no mercenaries, no vigilantes, and militias controlled by the population.
Instead of leading an arms race it should lead a dearming race.
Instead of demeaning and undercutting world institutions, it should support them.
Instead of tyranizing the US and other populations, it the US power system should be afraid of its people.
This is exactly contrary to the Dem party and Obama, who is continuing the War On Terrorism of the Bushites. Until the US population demonstrates its opposition to WarTerrorism, it will continue to ground into the ground. The militrization has almosst bankrupted the US, and Obama is in favor of increasing the military.
Report thisBy Muscleboy, December 10, 2008 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment
Repukes Destroyed the Military and The USA’s Economic Engine
Here here, well said prole!
The Republicons have broken down our geopolitical image and ability to operate effectively in countless ways. John McCain was one of the biggest distressors of service life by his persistent campaign, over the years, to minimize military benefits and compensation. That was made clear by the vast majority of vets nationwide who, despite very little public support of their agenda by Obama’s team or the Defense Industrial complex media, worked tirelessly to bring forth the message that “McCain is comprehensively against the welfare of US service personnel”.
On the issue of more troops, one could make an argument the need to do such, as part of a rebuilding of the forces that defend ours and our friends interests I think quite convincingly, most especially following the Republicons literal destruction of the US armed forces. We have to remember that President Obama is not just making these claims alone he’s also saying that it is critical to “reboot our image” among worldwide Muslims which has been very clearly damaged by the Bush neocon criminal cabal. So he’s saying strength with literally loving care of our fellow inhabitants of this globe whilst caring a big stick one is loath to use.
It would be funny if it weren’t so horrible. I am personally very much against criminals and criminal behavior. It just makes me sick on a genetic level. But thanks to George Bush, the Republicons and the neocons et al. I have I think, readjusted my sensitivity level to just what actually shocks me. Things like the blatancy of the defense industrial complex, which really isn’t a thing but a disparate collection of largely treasonous criminals, they have sunk to new levels of revolting criminality. We have this vast theft of US treasury funds by Bush and his cohorts, which if anything was counter imperialist in it’s net effects, “Boy!” they exclaim,“It’s a damn profitable thing this invasion and occupation business.” So the DIC has, through it’s mouthpieces at the Pentagon, proclaimed they predict a never ending series of ongoing conflicts just like Iraq and are preparing thusly. Translated that means they are priming the pump of Congress and stirring events with their hood cohorts. President Obama, in contrast, seems not interested in their method, not only of spending money but of operation in general. He made it clear and continues post election to do so, that we are going to change our image from the ground up and redirect funds from the DIC to things like alternative energy and rebuilding America, health care, and programs to take care of our fellow brothers and sisters right here at home. He insists the massive spending on things like alternative energy will be specifically injected into US businesses to produce patents owned by the USA, which will work to strengthen our middle class economic engine which also has been nearly destroyed by Bush. This all is a very big change and it looks like it’s coming full speed ahead.
Report thisBy Maani, December 10, 2008 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment
To all those who are critical here (dihey, prole, folktruther, LSL), I am curious about something. Do you believe that the U.S. should have no military at all? If so, is that either realistic or even a positive thing? If not, please explain what you think the military is or should be, how it should be financed (and to what degree), etc.
You are very quick to criticize, but you offer no alternatives. Please do so.
Peace. (Which is, among other things, the opposite of war.)
Report thisBy dihey, December 10, 2008 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment
Wait and shudder when “the military embraces and immobilizes” President Obama.
Report thisBy prole, December 10, 2008 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment
Another masterpiece of spurious spin by the unrivaled master of truth-burying establishment rationalizations, EJ Dionne. Pulling an ideological rabbit out of the hat to make military aggression a ‘progressive’ cause. If this is “the most politically and morally significant choice of [Obama’s] transition” we’re in for even worse trouble than first imagined. Last week, Dionne was able to keep a straight face long enough to plead GM was a victim of class bigotry. And now moral courage is equated with military imperialism on an even grander scale, reuniting and reinventing the military-industrial complex as “the new progressivism”. Almost makes Eisenhower look like a radical. Half a century ago, another ambitious Democratic presidential contender, JFK invented a ‘missile gap’ mirage, to great electoral effect. And now, BHO, who is sometimes likened to JFK, is touted to close an equally nonexistent “gap between Democrats and the military”. Of course, no such “gap” exists and never has. Democrats since Kennedy (and before) have been as eager to throw money at the Pentagon as Republicans. Clinton who - like Obama Copacabana - was perceived to be vulnerable on military issues, shortly before he left office pushed a $124 billion multi-year military spending budget increase, paving the way for even more gargantuan increases under the Bush militarists. Obama himself has proposed adding tens of thousands of new troops to the army and dramatically increasing R & D funding. “Shinseki’s appointment marks the vindication of”... a policy of even more massive- scale expedionary forces, while leaving the pernicious premises untouched, perhaps in preparation for Obama’s escalation in Afghanistan - or even an assault on Iran. “Obama’s decision to keep Robert Gates as defense secretary and his choice of retired Marine Gen. James Jones as White House national security adviser are of a piece in sending a strong, sympathetic signal to the uniformed services” and “aggressively” “opening a wide gap” between the Democrats and the peace movement. In order to try and overcome the Vietnam syndrome many media propagandists at neo-con publications like The Atlantic and Washington Post concocted a revisionist alibi for the American war machine, blaming ”liberals and the left for failing to give them a chance to win a war in which they continued to see triumph as a possibility.” “Some opponents of the Vietnam War turned sharply on the military”...but not the Democrats, not while the likes of a Henry Jackson or a Joe Biden or such are around. “It remains a scandal that”..the immoral invasion of Vietnam (and the region) ever occurred at all, or that its lessons weren’t properly learned in order to prevent the most recent immoral invasion of Iraq. It was, of course, Vietnamese and Iraqis and kin that “bore the brunt of the wars’” inhumanity “when they [stayed] home”. The resistance forces persevered however, displaying against all odds the liberatory “values of sacrifice, unity, self-discipline, and considering the interests of the group before those of the individual”. “The Shinseki appointment gives Obama a way to marry the Democrats’ twin” interests (and Dionne and The Post’s) of corporate military spending at home and expanded force aggression abroad. “Obama aims to show that his party’s commitment to” ...full and swift withdrawal from Iraq and ending imperialist aggression – and all the needless carnage and suffering in the ranks that goes with it - was “just campaign chatter”.
Report thisBy Muscleboy, December 9, 2008 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment
<b>The Military was Destroyed by these Men<>
Appointing Bush trolls who have served his every whim is not moving closer to the military, it’s moving closer to the Defense Industrial Complex, if anything.
There are literally countless retired generals who stood up against the unholy demon George Bush and countless veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who have served our country and now stand strong against the criminal Defense Industrial Complex and George Bush, all of whom are more qualified than Gates or Jones. These appointments betrayed all of them risking their lives for NOTHING other than outright crime and mass murder. By serving George Bush, even though it was their job, they have betrayed our entire country.
The neocon and PNAC criminals that set out to benefit the geopolitical interests of Israel and ended up profiting monetarily from the mass murdering crime of the Iraq invasion and occupation have hooked into this criminal cabal with George W. Bush at it’s center and one of the men who worked to keep American Hostages in Iran to help Reagan win the election against president Carter, that is Robert Gates, although he came later he served him quite eagerly.
These so-called pro military appointments are as anti-officer and enlisted person; anti-military as you can get. They nearly have destroyed the US military. There are very few who, truth be told, supported any aspect of Bush and his crimes in the services. From day one the US Department of Defence intelligence agency declared that Iraq was not a threat to us whatsoever, they had to plant traitors like Richard Pearle, caught just a few years earlier stealing classified documents from the State Department to bring to Israel, and Douglas Feith both neocon zionists with other reasons to falsify the intelligence to justify the invasion of Iraq.
These appointments are a betrayal to all those who have died in service of this massive war crime and unprecedented theft of US assets by criminals hijacking our government. The only persons in jail for these crimes are lower level service people. That too is a crime.
Still I have hope that President Obama is not a fake criminal himself. I think he is going to be everything he promised and more. I’m sure of it.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, December 9, 2008 at 9:20 pm Link to this comment
Folktruther, December 9 at 6:27 pm #
the reason Zionism is so poisonous in the US is because it is allied to militarism and neoliberalism, and the police statest policies and unites an enourmous amont of money, media and management around all three.
It is ideologically the Progressive equivilent of the fundamentalism of the right. The perverted values and irrationality of this religious belief in The Homeland, as Inherit calls it, spreads far beyond the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians to ALL Arabs and Muslims. It is the ideological glue that binds brutality and violence to the US policy, and not even in the interests of the US power structure let alone the US population.
Maani and Inherit apparently think pro forma statements of lip service against Israeli barbarousness allows them to support militarism and neoliberalism, and the police state polices of Obama, with impunity. Israel is now starving a million and a half people with US suppport, and Obama has said nothing about it. Silence gives consent. Especially if he has concentrated Zionists in his cabinet.
***********************************************
Your persistent lies and deliberate falsehoods are beginning to piss me off. I live in NJ, not too far from Newark. A couple of years ago, gang-bangers came into a local convenience store, in our nice, quiet town, and murdered the clerk, a hard-working nice, quiet Latino immigrant, with a wife and family. Would I want to kill these @$$holes? You bet I would. But YOU (being a purveyor of falsehoods) would deliberately AND FALSELY take that to mean that I must want to kill and wipe out every Black person on earth. THAT is your immoral and unethical twisting of words and arguments.
I want my neighborhood to be safe, and I identify the gang-bangers as a threat to that safety. That many of the Newark gang-bangers are Black is simply a reflection of the times. At other times they were Irish, Italian, German, Jewish, etc. There is no way you can infer that I hate Blacks because I fear the gangs. It’s deliberate horseshit on your part to say that.
You want to keep people from listening to my words and logic so you try to paint this picture of me as a maniacal demon driven by religious zeal and an irrational emotional hatred. I am nothing of the sort. I am Agnostic, and have enormous respect for Islam, the ONLY religion that explicitly condemns racism (and what converted Malcolm X away from reverse racism). I also have enormous respect for Judaism. And I truly hate the far-right jingoist who want to take “greater Israel” and drive out the Arabic peoples there. But you refuse to recognize this. I see no reason why they cannot live in peace and re-build all the old ties that once existed between the Arabs and Jews.
You deny it and ignore as the reductionist intellectual hypocrite that you are because it doesn’t fit your sick world view that the ONLY justice is the complete and total annihilation of Israel which you KNOW will result in the slaughter of most of her 5 million Jews. One tiny spit of land smaller than New Jersey out of a land 3x the size of the USA but even that you begrudge. Like a fabulously rich man begrudging a starving man even a loaf of stale bread he was going to give to the birds anyway…“on principle”!
Hah! Some principles.
Report thisBy Folktruther, December 9, 2008 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment
the reason Zionism is so poisonous in the US is because it is allied to militarism and neoliberalism, and the police statest policies and unites an enourmous amont of money, media and management around all three.
It is ideologically the Progressive equivilent of the fundamentalism of the right. The perverted values and irrationality of this religious belief in The Homeland, as Inherit calls it, spreads far beyond the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians to ALL Arabs and Muslims. It is the ideological glue that binds brutality and violence to the US policy, and not even in the interests of the US power structure let alone the US population.
Maani and Inherit apparently think pro forma statements of lip service against Israeli barbarousness allows them to support militarism and neoliberalism, and the police state polices of Obama, with impunity. Israel is now starving a million and a half people with US suppport, and Obama has said nothing about it. Silence gives consent. Especially if he has concentrated Zionists in his cabinet.
Report thisBy Maani, December 9, 2008 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment
ITW:
Why give in to the baiting of people like LSL? He accuses me of being a “troll,” yet it is HIS words, approaches and behavior that mark HIM as one. Same with Folkliar, who sees Zioinists behind every tree (remind you of McCarthy?...), no matter WHAT bona fides they show to the contrary.
Better to ignore them than give in. (Though I admit to humoring Folkliar by taking the time to provide my anti-Zionist bona fides.)
Peace.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, December 9, 2008 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment
Leisure Suit Larry, December 9 at 2:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
By Folktruther, December 9 at 11:15 am #
“It is to be expected that Zionists like Inherit and Maani approve the legtimation of the militarization of the US.”
I am not sure Maani is a zionist (although most militant xtians are) He says “Peace” often, but he was for Hillary..a troll I believe. and he sure is a big fan of all things Democratic, but not necessarily democratic.
ITW is definately a cheer-leader for US militarism in the Mid east no matter the cost. he’s an appoligist for Israel’s most dispicable actions, and believes Palestinians are Trespassers on land belonging to Israel.
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That is a blatant lie and a slander, something you are highly prone to. Then again “Leisure Suit Larry” the x-rated video character is a known seedy scumbag, so it’s no surprise.
I am TOTALLY opposed to US militarism in the ME and always have been. I am totally in favor of a 2 state solution that allows both sides to finally live in peace. And I’m damned sick of guys like you who attack anyone who doesn’t want all the Jews in Israel moved into the Mediterranean as being “Zionist racists”. I guess YOU don’t mind having 5 million deaths on your conscience, as long as they are “Zionists”.
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, December 9, 2008 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
By Folktruther, December 9 at 11:15 am #
“It is to be expected that Zionists like Inherit and Maani approve the legtimation of the militarization of the US.”
I am not sure Maani is a zionist (although most militant xtians are) He says “Peace” often, but he was for Hillary..a troll I believe. and he sure is a big fan of all things Democratic, but not necessarily democratic.
ITW is definately a cheer-leader for US militarism in the Mid east no matter the cost. he’s an appoligist for Israel’s most dispicable actions, and believes Palestinians are Trespassers on land belonging to Israel.
Both these folks will broker no opinion other than their own, no middle ground, and definately no discussion which might sully the stirling reputation of the big D party.
My favorite new Democratism is from Harry Reid who is happy about the new visitor’s gallery at the Senate, because the glass will shield him from the smell of the visitors (that’s us baby) The “party of the people” strikes again!
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, December 9, 2008 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment
As I predicted, the usual fertilizer from the usual sources…
Report thisBy Maani, December 9, 2008 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment
Folktruther:
“It is to be expected that Zionists like Inherit and Maani approve the legtimation of the militarization of the US.”
Gee, and I thought I had proved my anti-Zionist bona fides to you! Yet you demand more? Okay, how about this: I condemn those aspects of the U.S. military that are Zionist in nature or support Zionist policies.
Are you happy now?
Peace.
Report thisBy noitdoesnt, December 9, 2008 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
Shinseki has a good mind, as evidenced by his disagreement with former Secretary of State Rumsfeld.
Report thisSecretary of Defense would be the logical position to offer him.
He gave an honest assessment of the forces needed to occupy Iraq. Would he be honest about escalating Afghanistan or promoting warfare in Iran?
Putting him in the cellar of Secretary of Veterans Affairs serves as a consolation prize and a way to keep him quiet and/or out of the loop.
By Folktruther, December 9, 2008 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment
It is to be expected that Zionists like Inherit and Maani approve the legtimation of the militarization of the US. They, and the war industries, are the major enthusiasts for the War On Terrorism, the war against Muslims initiated in a Jerusulem conference in 1979.
That Gates is primarily a technical person, as Inherit opines, is absurd; as the former CIA head he is an administrative person. However Shinshiski was doing his professional job when he stated, in opposition to Rumsfield, that hundreds of thousands of troops would be necessary to occurpy Iraq. If the power struture accepted this, they may not have invaded.
That is a major reason that I didn’t think they would invade, although I was helping to organize the peace marches of the time. I was amazed when they did. They just assumed that the Iraqi people would be passive.
Just as Obama is assuming that the progressives will be passive as he goies to the right. Identifying so strongly with Elitist ideology leads to the kind of megalomania that the historian Hobsbawm noted is often associated with imperialism.
Since Obama is continuing the imperialism of Bush, it is natural he would be infected by the same irrationality.
Report thisBy Allan Gurfinkle, December 9, 2008 at 11:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
According to Tarpley, Rumsfeld was cashiered out when he opposed the surge. Gates was brought in to expand the war. I had not checked this but did just google and came up with ...
“In September, Rumsfeld had rejected the idea of a surge ...”
in the Weekly Standard, hey, that sounds pretty authoritative ...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/658dwgrn.asp?pg=2
Report thisBy Maani, December 9, 2008 at 10:19 am Link to this comment
ITW:
Bravo. I agree on all counts. The problem with many TDers is that they refuse to consider that people might actually learn from their mistakes, or even change over time. I wonder if they would want to be judged in the same harsh, intractable manner that they judge others.
Peace.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, December 9, 2008 at 9:20 am Link to this comment
The level of nonsense by the posters is to be expected. Shinseki never said whether he was for or against the Iraq invasion (though he STRONGLY indicated he was against it, as any intelligent man would). What he did was provide a PROFESSIONAL assessment of what the effort needed to be successful, from a military POV. As such, he was shown to THE first expert to call the outcome and cluster-f*** it turned into correctly. In other words, Shinseki’s competence was proven. His payback was being forced out by INCOMPETENTS. Also, Shinseki put his career on the line, going public, in a last, ditch desperate effort to save American forces from dying in vain. Again, for this he was fired.
Gates is first and foremost a technocrat. That’s a Good Thing after a political animal with a political agenda like Rumsfeld—who thought HE should be also Secretary of State. Incompetent at Defense, yet wanted SoS as well. Better to have a technocrat.
Gates will be in for a year, maybe more, maybe less. Shinseki will be running the second largest domestic department, will have a seat at the Cabinet table, and will be the obvious next-in-line for SecDef when Gates leaves.
Obama is no fool. He knows to used good minds when he has them. And anyone who doesn’t think Shiseki has a good mind IS a fool.
I, for one, think it’s one of his most brilliant selections.
But, as usual, most TD’rs will boo it without any facts to support them.
Nothing is new under the sun….
Report thisBy cemmcs, December 9, 2008 at 8:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
It remains a scandal that veterans of that conflict often bore the brunt of the war’s unpopularity when they returned home.
How so?
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, December 9, 2008 at 7:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
What incredible horseshit!
Even if one accepts Shinseki as a hero (and I surely do not) “Veteran’s affairs” is equivelent to a diplomatic post in D.R. Congo. The cabinet whipping boy.
Max Cleland Carter’s pick for Veteran’s affairs was heralded when he was appointed. BUT during the time he served (1977-1980) he was hidden in the cellar like a untoilet-trained retarded child, Veteran’s affairs was gutted under this administration, and Cleland got the blame….
Report thisBy Allan Gurfinkle, December 9, 2008 at 7:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)
Dionne also thinks appointing Gates sends the right signal. On the other hand, the conspiratorialists, like Webster Tarpley, think it is like appointing Osama Bin Laden as Sec. of Defense. As, Gates was a long time Brezinski water boy before moving up in the ranks. Brezinski, under Carter and working with Gates, was responsible for encouraging and arming the Islamic militants, including O. Bin Laden, the goal was to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. They eventually morphed into Al Quaeda. So, in fact, we have the man who created armed Islamic fundamentalism as Sec. of Defense. Perfect. Tarpley also says the game in changed now, Iran is no longer the target, Pakistan is.
Report thisBy Fadel Abdallah, December 9, 2008 at 4:05 am Link to this comment
“As the Army’s chief of staff, Shinseki famously told Congress in February 2003 that “several hundred thousand soldiers” would be needed to stabilize Iraq. A month before the Iraq invasion, he predicted that because of “ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems,” it would take “a significant ground force presence to maintain a safe and secure environment.”
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In light of what Shinseki said about the need to have several hundred thousand soldiers to occupy Iraq, I am one who does not see in him any courage or heroism meriting praising. This is not like saying that he was against a wrong and evil war; he just wanted the war to be at a larger scale than others!
So there is no wisdom in his appointment! Neither he nor Obama deserves praise for this appointment! It’s all about perpetuating militarism which will hasten the downfall of America, based on the principle of “Those who live by sword shall perish by sword!”
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