Now that GM has climbed its way up the list of top automakers, one would wonder what would have happened if Toyota actually acquired them. German car makers still dominate in many parts of the world, and a merger between toyota and Gm might have tipped the balance. It would have been interesting to see what kinds of cars they could come up with together.

Toyota has shown the world what many other corporations cannot achieve – corporate responsibility and accountability. The whole Toyota fiasco has been dealt with so professionally and sincerely, that one will agree that Toyota could be GM’s last hope.

I think that Toyota, no matter what people are saying, is still going strong and they will definitely climb higher and higher up on the list. GM was the fifth-largest company in the world last year but for the past 6 months General Motors hasn’t been that successful. Maybe it would be a good idea for Toyota to take over GM after all?

If only! Sadly America is far too xenophobic to let such a wise business move take place. A Toyota GM merger would bring two of the worlds top automotive companies swiftly to the lead of an industry in which they are both floundering. I suppose you could help convince Americans if you announced the merger was to help us compete with the Chinese.

Clearly this has not occurred. GM continues to remain with one foot in the market and well, Toyota is continuing to maintain its market share, even with the political media raising ongoing concerns around some of the Toyota service response following safety concerns.

Relax Lucy, Ford was NOT bailed out by the government. Ford was able to get loans before the economy collapsed.

Well! Here we are in 2010 and we know that the USA bailed out the “big three”, but what have we achieved? Yes, people have their employment, yet for how long is the question. I am of the belief that the “bailout package” served to line the pockets of the shareholders, as I have not observed a real sense of commitment to the new style car environment. Had the three been left to fend for themselves America’s car industry may have altered for the better in the long term. Toyota on the other hand is a sound business with great forward planning and thinking. The recent 6 months have seen some terrible propaganda surrounding Toyota and in particular their Prius. I wonder where this may have been initiated.

Gonna read it later.

You do know that ALL of the foreign auto companies that have their factories in the USA have special arrangements with the States that have the factories. Free or almost free land for their factories, little or no taxes and other benefits that the Big 3 automakers do not get. To be fair all of these perks should be eliminated to make it an even playing field for all concerned.

One important point that most of the posters do not
know is that all the international car companies
whether they are Amirican or Japanese etc etc are
all interconnected together in incestuous relations.
They invest in each other, they buy parts from each
other, they share design trends. Ever noticed that
most cars almost look alike in each level of price.
I expect the GM, Ford and Chrysler regardless of
the current charade of a government bail-out , eventually, in the near future, will declare bankruptcies and that will lead to busting the UAW
union for good and getting red of any obligations
toward their retirees.

Yeah, I’d just love for GM to be part of this outfit, such a worker’s paradise that it is:
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports.php?id=562

Don’t see how Toyota taking over any part of GM, whether through direct sale or through bankruptcy fire-sale,  how that does a thing for Toyota.

GM has nothing they need.  And if GM fails,  it opens up a lot of room for Toyota to expand on their own terms, using their relatively more successful business model for selling transportation products

To GrannyGeese,
 
The relinquishing of the lead to foreign auto companies by American auto companies was deliberate
and intended.
It is a part of continuous transfer of manufacturing
everything to foreign companies, whether they are
off-shore or they are having manufacturing plants here in the U.S. Those foreign companies offer wages and benefits much lower than given by American companies.
This is weakening the bargaining position of the UAW and is putting continuous tremendous pressure on it to give more concessions.
I am afraid this process will continue until the
unions become impotent or busted all together.
I will not be surprised, regardless of the bail-out
charade, that the auto companies will declare bankruptcies and in that way all their obligations to
the workers and retirees under the old contracts will
be zero.
After bankruptcies re-organiztion, probably only
Ford and GM will start over with zero obligations
toward their retirees and new set of contract with
much lower wages and benefits if the UAW is still
alive which I doubt it!!
GM has investment stake in Toyata and probably
Ford has investment stake in some other Japanese
car companies.

Toyota needs GM’s “expertise” and union burdens like they need a hole in the head.

Ed Harges, health care and pension burdens are hurting GM, but it is not the ‘biggest reason’ GM didn’t have the money for Research and Development when they most needed it. Shareholder payouts were.  From 1996 to 2000, GM delivered more than $20 billion to shareholders: $13 billion in multiple repurchases and an additional $7 billion in dividends. That’s where GM’s money went, and now they are paying the price for their short-sightedness.

Toyota’s management resisted pressure for higher payouts, primarily from American shareholders, and decided shareholder interests would be better served if Toyota directed the available cash from that period into R+D for hybrids and other long-term improvements. That’s where Toyota’s money went, and now they are reaping the benefits.

Long-term thinking and reinvestment has been a Japanese advantage for decades. I believe it is a culturally derived discipline in the way they do business that is the key to their success.

“Every democratic country on Earth has BEEN socialist since the Great Depression.”

If you think so, I’m pretty sure you don’t have a clear understanding of the word.

“The Police, Fire Dept., Libraries, Parks, Sidewalks and dozens of other things are all examples of socialist policy.”

No, not really. None of these are clear examples of state or collective ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, nor are they good examples of wealth redistribution. Also, these things have existed under virtually every form of modern government.

The vast majority of the production and distribution of goods in the US is controlled by the free market, which is antithetical to socialism.

Now, the US government owning a significant share of the largest car maker in the US….that would be a step towards socialism.

You have a point, mikemikef, when it comes to larger companies.  A small CA manufacturer, Tesla Motors, already produces a plug-in electric roadster that will go from 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds and travels 244 miles/charge.  Tesla has plans to also build a plug-in electric luxury sedan likely to go into production next year.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

But the problem with small producers is the price tag on their vehicles which is quite steep.  The roadster only seats two. It’s more a toy than a practical solution.  The real question we should be asking is why should the U.S. government guarantee loans of $18 billion to a company, GM, when it could purchase the entirety of its common stock for $3 billion, then sell of its foreign assets, convert its existing plants to the manufacture of modestly priced plug-in electrics with solar panels and high speed commuter rail while eliminating the obscenity of overcompensating CEOs.

By GodIsDead, December 7 at 6:35 pm #

“The word “Japs” is racist and offensive.  I would greatly appreciate your refraining from using it. “

Just a shorthand for Japanese Manufacturers, this is 2008 NOT 1946, get over it.
___________________________________________

It is no more shorthand for Japanese Manufacturers than the N-bomb is shorthand for African-American.  In 1946, the word you chose was common place.  In 2008, it has no place amongst polite discourse.

Why are we pursuing even bigger corporations? 

Is not the size of corporations, a major reason, that they have not been ethical or responsive? 

GM has successful divisions in foreign countries. 

Why not spin all the divisions off? 

The part that makes tanks could spin off.

The divisions could all fund what is left at headquarters, that was of value to them. 

Jeep and the other products could spin off that company.

Same for Ford.

1960: car bought in Detroit direct from factory; all kinds of new items; more MPG than ever seen; more power; TIL took to dealership for 1st “checkup”; suddenly, typical car again; Mechanic & ham radio operator wished it had been brought to him instead of to dealership; after hours & months on finally found a man who worked I believe it was for GM; one of the 3; auto companies bought up all new patents for cars; kept them in vault; sometimes prototypes were made but KEPT FROM USE OF PUBLIC; like the Gov stamps “classified” on new products, inventions, etc, that would BENEFIT THE PEOPLE. Japan after being denied for years, had to sign TREATY WITH US GOV to keep MPG to 20-25. USA had the technology; wanted to keep the people paying more; wanted to use OIL; & get far more $; Gov had no problem with $ at all in giving brand new cars & trucks to “refugees with benefits” while denying disabled vets benefits; disabled citizens benefits; & giving $ to VA hospitals to care of the injured from the illegal war in Iraq, which never had any links with Al Queada at all, and Hussain had agreed to surrend himself to the Swiss. All documented folks; figure it out; they want to keep citizens of USA as slaves, just like they are behind the so called “drug wars” in Colombia targeting & killing the folks there wanting a living wage. Welcome to global “Corp with full backing of Gov” run world;

Of course, no one asked Bernanke and Paulson if they flew their private jets to DC when they brewed the stew that gave the banking thieves a trillion of our money, nor the banking thieves themselves; every damn one should have been pink-slipped on the spot and we still have no accounting of the robbery nor will we ever. The worst mistake in our history, except for not impeaching and convicting Bush of high crimes, was the Bush Bailout.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, though. Giving the management of the auto Big Three a dime is to piss it away. Preconditions must include the resignations of every board member of all three automakers and the merger of them into two, with the elimation of several auto brands. The only people we should be caring about are auto workers and ancillary workers who will be shit out of luck if Detroit stops making cars (which won’t happen, what is happening is that they are holding our economy hostage for free money instead of declaring bankruptcy reorganization after botching their business for a decade and a half).

There must be a new direction in American automaking. The electric car, buried intentionally 2 decades ago, needs to be put back on the front burner and Detroit retooled. The reason the Big Three have lost market share is that they have engineered inferior cars for decades and pushed guzzling SUVs and pickups over economical passenger cars with safety features, unlike Japanese makers. I have never bought an American engineered car, and never will as long as a superior car can be purchased at the same or lower cost despite import duties. I also have never bought a car with over four cylinders or more than two wheel drive.

Toyota isn’t going to buy GM, even for a quarter on the dollar. They won’t want it. Chrysler needs to merge with GM and Ford will need to see if it then can compete in a direct market with the resulting company. And all of them had better stop making SUVs, big pickups, and gas-guzzling luxury cars now and start making two passenger runabouts and hybrids, because that is the future.

“The word “Japs” is racist and offensive.  I would greatly appreciate your refraining from using it. “

Just a shorthand for Japanese Manufacturers, this is 2008 NOT 1946, get over it.

By GodIsDead, December 7 at 5:46 pm #

Japs and Euros then move to Mexico for cheaper labor and the US is left with NOTHING.

_________________________

The word “Japs” is racist and offensive.  I would greatly appreciate your refraining from using it.

“Toyota knows how to make money and GM does not. This is nothing new. Why not let Toyota merge with GM and correct an ongoing US loss of jobs in America. Toyota will do what it takes to keep jobs in the US and also show profits. The big three have proven they have antiquated ideas. Who else would go before congress without a business plan? It is so important to have a free market. More government involvement means a step towards socialism.” - Tess

1) Toyota wouldn’t touch GM with a 50 foot pole, this article is ridiculous

2) Every democratic country on Earth has BEEN socialist since the Great Depression. What planet have YOU been living on? The Police, Fire Dept., Libraries, Parks, Sidewalks and dozens of other things are all examples of socialist policy. Why not try learning the meaning of words before you use them?

Now onto new business. The only reason Jap and Euro auto makers are here is because of import restrictions designed to protect the local industry. No bailout means no local industry, therefore nothing to protect anymore.

Japs and Euros then move to Mexico for cheaper labor and the US is left with NOTHING. Apart from a gaping, massive hole where 8 million jobs used to be.

By FreetoBme, December 6 at 5:59 pm #

I don’t see anything about unions in the article.
_____________________

Quite right.  The union bashing came from some of the posters, esp. Ham-Archy.

There are a number of problems with this article.  First, there is no indication that Toyota mgmt is even interested in purchasing GM.  Such a purchase includes acquisition of its debt and existing contracts.

Second, the fix for the mess that is the U.S. economy will not be found by selling off what is left of it to foreign companies.  The problems are much deeper.  They entail the expense of Empire and the military-industrial complex and what Jeff Faux aptly describes as the “global class war” embodied in neoliberalism and the so-called free trade agreements. 

These developments are covered at length by Kevin Phillips in “Wealth & Democracy.”

The “U.S. embrace of a controversial model—a commitment to globalization, especially in services, that accepts corollaries of diminished manufacturing, accelerating wealth stratification, higher than acknowledged levels of joblessness, contained wages, and high levels of imports.”

Phillips compared this to Britain of 1910 and Holland of 1748—nations whose empires were waning. “Both were leading world economic powers in which national elites preoccupied themselves with success in finance and services, generally unconcerned with the old fabric of well-paid skilled workers.”

Focusing on empires past—Spanish, Dutch and British—Phillips sees in this internationalist stage, an Achilles heel in an increasing dependency on finance capitalism at the expense the more mundane production, a tendency to acquire a build-up of debt and increasing transnational loyalties.  This is followed by an aging of the nation’s early-stage technology and susceptibility to technology transfer, foreign innovation and migration of key industries.

The answer to our current malaise will not be found in selling GM to Toyota.  It lies in reinstating our foundering industrial base through public investment, ownership and control, and in the elimination of control by the titans of industry and finance to whom the very notion of the public good is foreign.

Leftyrite and all of you who have not studied WW2:

The victorious war against Germany was decided on the Eastern Front, notably by the Battle of Kursk in 1943 and the offensives that brought the Red Army to the Vistula and then the Oder.

Please stop claiming that “we” beat the Germans. We did not do this alone.

Why was Wall St not held to the same standard? Because it effects the upper classes…who buy the politicians. But, so have the Unions. they always support Democrats—what choice do they have? There is no Labor Party…But they “came out” for Obama BIG TIME! I am willing to bet that the Dems will at least do a half measure.

But, Paul Krugman could be correct—it may be too little too late. I just dont see why the workers should have to suffer for it…do you realize how many will be added, almost instantaneously to the rolls of unemployed and uninsured, if they big three go bankrupt? Despite the UAW’s big “hype” they have already given far too much in concessions.

I give not a damn for the CEOs , nor the shareholders (except that some have been forced into the mkt , by the uS obssession with privitzation and the “you too can be trump someday” syndrome)). I am only concerned for the workers.

If the Dems are to be the “party of the working class (lololol—sorry—couldnt help it), then it cannot be just at election time, when they take huge sums of money from Unions. Lets see how much…

Obama’s Union Money: the Service Employees Intl Union spent over $75 million to get Obama and other Dems elected.

The S.E.I.U., has 1.9 million members across the country and a willingness to knock on doors, pour money into television ads and go flat out for its chosen candidate.

$1 million was be spent by the United Food and Commercial Workers union for pro-Obama advertisements. Mr. Obama has also received fresh support from PowerPac.org, a California group that has spent around $740,000 on a pro-Obama effort.

United Auto Workers:

Carl Levin received $438,304, Rep. Joe Knollenberg got $879,327, and Rep. John Dingell got nearly a million, CBS says. All three support federal assistance to Detroit’s automakers.

Voinovich of Ohio, and others, are talking about a $25 billion compromise, now. But, the Dem Party thinks that they have “nowhere else to go”—I wouldnt count on that, if I were the Dems. This is no ordinary “loan”—1.2 milllion livelihoods are at stake, as well as many more retirements…

Krugman: US Auto Industry Will Probably Disappear
December 7, 2008

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/07/krugman-us-auto-industry_n_149082.html

Tito—This is one USAn who is most certainly NOT “tired of advice” from Britain, nor any other successful economy—well, more succsesful than OURS , at this point.

Honestly, what would be so bad about being “more like the UK”? They have better labor protections, a govt spnosored social safety net—at least they did—still , tito?
Parliamentary govt is more representative, and, the prime minister is not the “chief of state”, like some god ..

So, who would you say took you down the “wrong road”, tito (if you think that the UK has gone there)—Thatcher? Blair? Or, like the US, a series of them? I think that we should be very open to ideas..

GrannyGeese—Yes, yes. Some very good points here..

truedigger3—Yes. Third World status. The upper classes think that it wont matter to them, if there is no middle class. And, it wont, at first..They will need to think again.

We ceratinly cannot go preaching about human rights in other countries if we allow sweat shops here! As GrannyGeese said, there is a reason they relocated to the Deep South. Make the Great Lakes states like Mississippi—no offense to good people in Mississsippi!

No labor = Wal Mart Nation.

Is there any chance, that, we cpuld think past our own nose here, some folks? If all you are concerned about is your own “stock”, your own “Bailout” (but not theirs—let them pay mine), the elits ass holes, will divide and conquer.

Other countries know this. Most have a representative labor party. It may not be all it should be—but that doesnt mean we should just give in to corporate greed. A little solidarity, maybe??

People in this country work in conditions that violate the UN Charter on Human Rights. Some of the sweatshop laws that get passed here—by both parties—are Iron Age era. No other civilized country woudl put up with it. But, come election time—the Dems are “there for the Unions”!! lol

But,then, in more civilized countries, they think of themselvse as “countrymen”.

Ham-Archy—Yes. Lets. Stay on topic, I mean..

Peace.

As a long time holder of TM stock, even through this mess, I surely hope they don’t get involved in this dismal purging of an bloated dinosaur.  Manufacturing died in the U.S. years ago but these few lingering remnants of our day in that area will take a while to disappear completely.  Brand in auto industry is about to become obsolete and I can’t think of another thing GM or F can sell TM?

KDelphi: It is obvious at this point, and from many of your other posts, that you are just being argumentative, stubbornly intent on twisting other peoples statements into non-sequiturs for the sake of debate. You are reaching way beyond relevance to this article, warping the concept presented by the writer into divergent issues. Please try to stay on topic.

Ham-Archy—Sorry to be so dense. Maybe you could loan me some brain cells. Could you humor me and explain a little better what this means:

“Now, the whole paradigm of industry was conceived with the goal of creating jobs.”

Was/is it not, first of all, to create “product”,use it, find it useful, so, create more, and, therefore, “profit”? Did someone really sit down and say, “I think I will create some jobs…what should make”?” Wasnt it product first, customer next, increased demand, then, more “work”? Sounds just like the free mkt. But,you are amazingly hard to pin down as to your belief system. Stop explaining to me how the industrial markets work, and, respond with what you think the problem is. You worked there many years, no? It seems that you think that labor is at fault, in some posts. In others , you absolve them….

Sometimes when I say"do not understand”, it is because I find the logic of an argument rather reprehensible, so, I ask for further explanation, to avoid misunderstanding a person’s intent.

To me, your first post came out as a very pro-industry rant. You seemed to feel that you hold the power of life and death, work and employment over many people, (and, that they should be grateful for it, as you had created their job)and that they should have taken adavantage, as you apparently felt you had,  of rhe new economy (I assume “global”?), You were met with “indignation” (imagine that!) rather than gratitude, but were not surprised. (If that doesnt designate “class”, what does it designate)Later, you said “see it works!”. So you intended to be offensive to working people.
If we do not begin to build community and commonwealth back into our society , we will fail in all we endeavor to do. We are not supposed to be a group of free-floating individuals, with no responsibility, except to ourselves. Industry has a responsibiity to workers, without which , they would not exist.Or would you disagree?
(see Air Traffic Controllers strike, and its aftermath)

That is my OPINION. I do not “fail to understand”—I just think that it does not work for human beings very well.

Maybe it is just an engineer trying to communicate with a liberal arts major. But, I see no reason for you to be so personally insulting.

My father was an engineer, as I have said. But, he had heart, and, was very concerned with the fate of others. I felt rather bad when you said you had lost so much of your retirement, yet you seem to have no similar compassion for others in a similar plight. Or, if you do, maybe it is in a language I “do not speak”. I’ve never claimed to be an engineer. Maybe my command of the English language is not equal to yours.(I would submit that “command” is, in some ways, , an ability to make oneself understood) We may disagree.

I still cannot discern whether you are for an “ownership society” (as in when you stress personal responsibility and decision making) or for collective action like labor unions (as in,  when you state that labor is not at fault)Does that mean personal responsibility, or, collective action, or both?

So, this is what you think of someone who comes out on the losing end of the rigged casino market:“You didn’t get your boat? THAT’S YOUR FAULT!” So, stew in your own juices, if you like.

You CHOSE to invest. Whether Wall St, or , your employer lied, cheated or broke the law—-is of no consequence, apparently,

It was the engineers and CEOS making the decisions, right? So you made good decisions, but the customsers failed to notice? Or you made bad decisions , and it is the mgmt’s fault? Or you made decision , but it was labor’s fault?

I wouldnt be belaboring the point, but you made it seem so personally belitteling.

Lets just agree to disagree. I think that, maybe , it is an eingineer, trying to talk to a Liberal Arts major. Lets leave it at that.Peace.

KDelphi: Sorry to get so far over your head. Maybe that post was in response to one you didn’t read or you just can’t differentiate terms because they are no more than interchangable sound bites to you.
1. ‘labor’ is NOT synonymous with ‘US Citizen’
2. ‘global mkts’ is NOT synomymous with ‘Science and Technology’
If you had better comprehension of the English language there would be no confusion.
The meaning of that, put simply, is that a wide range of careers are possible. The choice of which effects the individual not the position of one corporation.
Now, the whole paradigm of industry was conceived with the goal of creating jobs. But as time has passed since ol Henry people with far different motivations have gained control of industry. The focus has become more and more profit and empire building. Jobs go by the wayside. None of this is the choice of those who seek the jobs.
But from the point of view of the working class, industry is beholden to them. While this is not wrong it is also possible to see that the political ecomomy has been evolving. So for the individual, as opposed to a corporation, the responsibilty is to one’s self. The focus of one’s efforts is best applied to his OWN survival.
I hope this clears it up. Otherwise I cannot imagine what words could be used to express the concept.

I am sickened and disgusted by a lot of the blogs in this thread. Many have swallowed the bait of the corporate Media and joined the chorus calling for busting the unions.
This reflects an ignorance of history and a false sense of eliticism and invincibility.
Not long ago before there were no unions in this country, children working in factories used to
demonstrate carrying sign asking for lowering
hours/week to 72 hours and not working in sundays!!
Think about that you dubmb ignorants.
With the decline of the unions, we are seeing the
decline and the decimation of the middle class.
It is the race to the bottom where eventually most
workers will be grateful if they are paid the minimum wage if it is still there??!!
Yes, there were instances of corruption and abuse
of power in some unions but all in all the unions
served the workers very well and without them
the workers will be fair game for corporate greed
which history has proved it has no limit.

If, as you suggest, “such a takeover could be facilitated by the U.S. Treasury” then why not have the Treasury simply take those funds and advance GM a bridge loan. Apparently, you are one of those folks who would be happy to sell (or give away) everything in this country to a foreign country. Such talk sickens me.

As a Brit who has lived in the US, I can only urge you not to follow that path. If you need a reason, look at what happened to the British car industry, when it was sold to foreign car makers. It has essentially become a satellite industry, producing only specialised cars - Land Rover, the Mini, Rolls Royce, and Jaguar, being examples. The mainstream production of cars designed and built in Britain has ceased. There are examples that may look like they are, but in fact they are copies of other cars. Even the cars mentioned above are now mainly designed and powered by BMW.

If you have cars production being controlled by companies outside the US, there is no commitment to their long term continuance. When there is a financial problem in the future, huge sections of the company will be closed. Also people wanting to “buy American” will see the company as Toyota, which it will increasingly become. Expertise will be lost in the US, rather than gained, with cars being made having shipped in engines and parts.

Short term financial requirements may push people to think that this is an effective solution. It isn’t.

Beep. You lose.

PS. My experience is that many American are rightly sick of Europeans telling them what “should be done”, so for those of you who read this article and feel that way, let me put it in a different way:

Selling their car companies abroad is what the Brits did, and it screwed it up as usual. You don’t want to be more like Britain, do you?

Manufacturing…is just what the word states-The MAKING OF GOODS/ITEMS for use by CONSUMERS…..America has NO MANUFACTURING BASE[thanks to “ole bullshit”] and his friends/handlers…
This ALSO means we CAN NOT MAKE GUNS and TANKS etc to DEFEND OURSELVES FROM AN ATTACK-.-.-.ON OUR OWN SOIL…..
Thank You HAM-ARCHY for your defense of “the American Workers/Slaves”.....MY SWEAT kept the RICH on EASY STREET….MY TAXES kept the POOR on WELFARE..It BROKE MY BODY and now I have .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

prole

________________

Welcome to Saudi America

This is what it means to be a ‘progressive’ today, figuring out ways to save giant corporations and arrogant unions from the perils of the marketplace that they’ve always extolled and effectively manipulated when times are good. Then it’s the government’s job to “facilitate” profit maximization by avoiding ‘excessive’ regulation and taxation. And when things turn down it’s the government’s responsibility to step in and “facilitate” a lucrative bailout or friendly merger. “A takeover of GM by Toyota Motor Corp… facilitated by the U.S. Treasury, but acting in concert with Japan’s Ministry of Finance in this instance” would be the advent of a new phase of state-sponsored monnopoly capitalism. Merging two of the largest corporations in the world in the two largest economies in the world would create a corporate colossus that could crush “human capital as well as physical infrastructure.” Perhaps worse,“in the context of the challenge of the global need to cut greenhouse gases” such a juggernaut would accererate the concentration of private economic power and by extension the influencing of political power, further accelerating the aleady rapidly receding prospects for grassroots democracy in the 21st century. And the taxpayers are to be their own worst enemy and be cajoled or frightened into acquiescing in such a massive misuse of public funds to serve private power and profit. Far from being alarmed at the imminent demise of one of the pillars of the Fortune 500, we should be rejoicing to finally see the day when a corporate leviathan and its collaborationist union are cut down to size. GM can sink or swim on it’s own enterprise. If it goes bust, Toyota or some other automaker would scavenge the wreckage for viable pieces, anyway. A publically “facilitated” merger under the current circumstances would artificially prop up GM share prices for investors and earn M & A lawyers and accoutants untold millions in inflated fees. “Joining these two giants of the international auto industry could signal to the market that policymakers are serious about not only preserving the” military-industrial complex “organizational and physical infrastructure associated with GM including its” losing units and insolvent networks “but doing so in a way that gets the private sector involved” in directing public policy. “Toyota has been at the forefront of new technology and progressive management techniques”...such as dragging its feet on improving fuel efficiency. Its fleet-wide global warming pollution is greater today than it was 20 years ago. And it recently opposed more stringent fuel economy (CAFE) standards legislation in congress, lobbying instead for a watered down version opposed by the National Resources Defense Council and other enviornmental groups. It’s also part of auto trade associations that have streuously opposed efforts by California, through its ‘Pavley Clean Car Regulations’, and several other states to reduce global warming. “Overall, a takeover of GM by Toyota would be a way of dealing with GM’s current problems and could lead to a powerful combined company that could”... put the two corporate political parties in their hip pocket and lobby the government(s) for just about anything it demanded. But then, what can you expect from the eponymous Milken Institute, founded and directed by sleazy junk bond felon Michael Milken who was part of the last financal crisis of capitalism in the 80s. No, better to “facilitate” the downfall of corporate capitalism and its academic handmaidens.

HamArchy—So—on the one hand, you say that “labor failed to take advantage of the global mkts and get an education”, and that “you were responsible for many of them keepng their jobs by not engineering better robots”, yet, “labor is not to blame”.

Okey-dokey.. Here is what you said:”
“Modern industry is the evolution of division of labor integrated with commerce and invention. The US is no longer an industrial nation. We have made advancements in science and technology that have paved the way to a new economy. Unfortunately not enough US citizens have chosen to embrace this new economy by getting the education required, and have let those opportunities go to people in other countries who saw the value of them….

...the way to a new economy. Unfortunately not enough US citizens have chosen to embrace this new economy by getting the education required, and have let those opportunities go to people in other countries who saw the value of them. These same citizens have also neglected their own interests by allowing themselves to be prayed upon by corporate greed. It should be clear at this point that unions could not ensure protection from every aspect of exploitation however hard they tried. It comes down to each individual to make good decisions, and when this responsibility is removed, so is freedom. Now people are faced with this choice. Are they going to stop and think, or fly into hysterics and buy into the next slave bait that is waved in front of them. Hopefully, THINK IT OUT! ...”

What are you saying?

Why would Toyota want to take over GM?  And if they did, you don’t think they’d cut jobs like crazy?  The notion that Toyota would take over and leave all those nice jobs in place, paying almost twice what Toyota pays elsewhere in the U.S., is a fantasy.  Plus, Toyota would have to take over all those legacy obligations to union members?  Forget it!

KDelphi: I don’t think in terms of free market good, free market bad. Free market? What the hell does it have to do with the question here? My second, and beyond posts here are in response to several others that seem to be putting an onus on labor. I say labor in no way has responsibility for the state of affairs in which these corporations find themselves. Only the opposite it true. But the article is about GM’s pending disaster. So I contend that the mad state of affairs in the financial institutions have caught these bad boys with their pants down. A no brainer really. I understand that workers are sorely affected by this, but they cannot be to blame. Unfortunately they are pawns in a loosing game.

I’m thinking about the model line-up if GM and Toyota were one. Contrary to popular opinion GM’s quality has improved to the point that it would be difficult to choose which models to keep and which to cut. Toyota has 3 basic models and GM is preparing to pare down its lineup. The last article I read stated that GM workers were actually more productive than Toyota’s and several of the GM plants were higher in initial quality. Who stays and who goes? And I’m telling you, as a union guy, we’ve wanted to unionize Toyota for years but we haven’t had the right politicians in office. Maybe now we do. If GM alone has to make concessions for a bailout, as a UAW guy I’m willing to accept concessions for the sake of GM. But if Toyota is involved, Hell would freeze over before I’d accept anything like that. Remember further that Toyota is unionized in Japan and Japan has a national healthcare system subsidizing their workers over there. I don’t want to be brought down to Alabama standards.

Tess—Here here! For the free market!!

” Who else would go before congress without a business plan? It is so important to have a free market. More government involvement means a step towards socialism….”

Damn right! Oh, wait…Wall St?? Didnt they have, what 6 pp. by Paulson??

As to cann4ing’s good points, may I point out that Topyota pays its executives a cap of $1 million a year. Hmmm..could CEO salaries be part of the problem? Nah..theyre rich cause theyre so SMART! You guys, too, huh?

HamArchy—You seem to be very divided against ourself, I must say. What exactly are you proposing???On the one hand, free mkts are bad. On the other—not so much???

So, did the Dem vote “save your pension” yet? If not, you may need some allies.. It “going to save your 401k or IRA”, and you dont give a rat’s butt about others. OK. But, that is gone and forgotten…I wonder what the working classes and labor will think next election? Unions still put their hopes on the Dems—I am amazed,. But if you let them down again—there goes “dumbass ole Joe Six-Pack”...who’s dumb?? 

Well, the working classes would never have been in this casino style stock mkt if the govt hadnt so busily gone about privitizing everything under Reagan, Bush, Clinton,Bush. If they had funded social security, had provided natl health care etc. all three might be in business…blame Unions. Working class people are easier targets than Wall st. Cowards.

When are Dems gonna fight the “big boys”? When you are certain you wont get your money back?

If I were Toyota the ONLY thing GM has I’d be interested in is the dealerships.  Toyota dealerships suck all over. They are rapidly becoming known as the rudest, treat-you-like-dirt dealers around. Their service departments are “profit centers” which means the mechanics are “incentivized” to “be aggressive about advising customers to engage in preventative maintenance.”  In other words, they magically find stuff wrong to fix on your car the moment it is out of warranty.  The last honest Toyota dealership I knew has gone to the Dark Side.

Lots of Chevy dealers have figured out that they cannot go that route—they sell a crappy product so they DAMN well better have blue-chip service, especially when the warranty is over.  Not all dealers, I’m sure, but plenty of them—I’ve come across more than one.

So…Let Toyota and Nissan come in and take the GM and Ford dealerships over!

The US government facilitating the creation of an international corporation by Toyota ‘buying’ GM is fascism. (Government serving corporate interests)

I suggest that we killed tens of millions to stop fascism half a century ago. (Everywhere but in the US sadly) I dont think much or your suggestion that Japanese political interests should ‘govern’ a major US industrial sector.

Your blindness to national interests spits on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of americans over the years that have died to preserve the nation, its people and principles.

Your suggestion is trivial and foolish in human and political terms, clearly motivated by your lack of interest in the US.

You should take up residence in Dubai and take your stateless internationalism with you.

Sure, GM killed the electric trains and then the electric car in California and karma can be rough, you know the b word.

Re: “Volkswagen Jetta TDI wins Green Car of the Year”. to Frederick News Post

We just got 47 mpg in our diesel 2006 VW Jetta TDI. Our multinational car corporations’ products that do similar are just not sold here. Why do our corporations do better in other countries? Because other countries more sensibly tax gasoline, more than diesel, to keep up their infrastructure and to incentivize increased mileage without CAFE mandates. But we demand CAFE mandates AND low taxes AND good infrastructure, at the same time. So, what to do? We could help lead our government by telling them to drop CAFE mandates by raising gas fees for our infrastructure. Those fees could be adjusted to stabilize gas prices, producing more predictable, increasing gas prices, to anticipate Peak Oil, followed by declining oil. We could easily choose to grow biodiesel here, when there is a guaranteed minimum price to start up. It could be too late, for our corporations here, because all concerned, have lacked leadership and a sensible strategy, too long. As we have seen in 2008, even short term high gas prices, quickly incentivizedhigh mileage cars and has led to our corporations’ latest dilemmas. President Bush, Governor Schwarzenegger, our corporations, and some multinational oil corporations, have all mislead us, by a bait and switch operation, with their hydrogen car bait. Our corporations switched from the greater than 70mpg diesel hybrids, developed by our corporations’ cooperation with the Clinton Administration, to their hydrogen car hoax bait. President Bush and Governor Schwarzenegger appear ignorant, and our car corporations also appear ignorant. The multinational oil corporations, should have known, what they were doing, in killing the electric cars in California. They misrepresented the costs and efficiency of hydrogen, to compete with our coal companies, for customers. Those multinational oil corporations, should be charged, whatever it costs them, to make our car corporations whole. President Bush should make it happen, before he leaves office, for his own part in this big oil bait and switch operation. See: http://tinyurl.com/hydrogenhoax for “The Hydrogen Hoax” and http://tinyurl.com/pickensplot for “Pickens’ Plot in Pickens’ Plan” and http://tinyurl.com/jatropha for “Jatropha, Key Plant for Energy Sustainability”.

Very Respectfully,

Michael @ http://RecoveryByDiscovey.com

Ham-Archy;

The free market without regulation is synonomus with brutal economic, milatary and police state tactics, just the same as pure socialism.

I don’t see anything about unions in the article.
I totally agree with the EV 1 disaster in favor of the Hummer et al.
Why not allow Toyota to buy GM?
Because of union contracts?
I know the unions are doing their best to back off a bit
but how can you expect people who are making far less than auto workers
to buy the product you are making?
It doesn’t work.
Do I want you to make less money, etc? No
But we’ve got to allow the people who don’t have the unions backing them
but have to buy the cars, to be able to afford them.

I’ve bought 3 Toyota trucks/cars - why?
Because the price was reasonable and the car/truck was dependable.

The problem isn’t unions.  It’s the capitalists and the managers.  The unions did not decide to outsource our mfg base in search of cheap foreign labor.  The unions were not responsible for NAFTA, CAFTA & the WTO.  The unions were not responsible for the corporate decision to fight CA’s zero emission requirements at every turn.  The unions did not make the choice to lease, rather than sell, the EV-1.  The unions did not make the decision to reject a multi-million dollar offer for the remaining EV-1s.  The unions did not order the destruction of the EV-1 and their replacement with Hummers, SUVs and trucks, though the UAW did make a major mistake when it agreed to join management in resisting higher mpg mandates.  The unions were not responsible for obscene CEO compensation packages in companies that are losing money not only in the manufacturing sector but especially in finance. And the unions are not responsible for the disaster that is the American health care system.

The real problem is the profit motive, which, despite the right-wing mantra of the so called “invisible hand” of the market place, is rarely in line with the public good.

I see no advantage in replacing American capitalists (GM) with Japanese capitalists (Toyota) and I grow weary of the incessant union bashing by the ruling class.  Nationalize the industry and convert it to going green while retaining collective bargaining and ending employer-based health care.

Or, if you want to go on being suckers in the great American job scam, just open vaults to the national treasury to corporate America and let them remove everything that is inside.

KDelphi: Oh, I see how you take this. I am, on the first point, saying that INDIVIDUALS in other countries pursued a technical education. In SOME countries with the advantage of govt. support. But many individuals in the US who DID HAVE the opportunity just blew it off. That is supportive of FREE CHOICE. Also free market is NOT synonomous with Imperialism.
“class imperialism” is meaningless. You made up that term. Look up ‘Imperialism’
The US economy is capitalist. It is corporate marketing methods, the advertising, the programing that is accomplished via the media, YOUR TV that create a mind set toward AVARICE and ENVY. The American Dream is full on Bullshit that is stuffed into your head.
What I am saying about the unions is that they are not the big issue here. If there was no issue with worker exploitation, there wouldn’t be unions in the first place. Many corporations do just fine without them, because the workers are happy.
If you don’t understand a contract, talk to a legal aid BEFORE you sign it.
So if you didn’t get your boat, maybe it is because you ran after the wrong one. Yeah lots of people have been sucked in by the corporate slave machine, but it just ain’t working. NOW we need to change it.
And keeping things in check? Holy shit, that will be the real battle with things like this:
http://www.nworeport.com/foodraid.htm
going on.

ham-archy—I know all this. I dont disagree. Would you submit that that is the attitude you took in your original post??

“We have made advancements in science and technology that have paved the way to a new economy.Unfortunately not enough US citizens have chosen to embrace this new economy by getting the education required, and have let those opportunities go to people in other countries who saw the value of them.”

It sounds pretty suportive of the “free mkt” to me, as well as globalization..do you not think that the uS economy fomets class warfare, while simoultaneously keeping the worksers in check?? It is the most lopsided one in the “f ree” world.

I dont know—sounds like class imperialism to me…but, there is no inflection on the net. That is the problem with “technology”..lol

“These same citizens have also neglected their own interests by allowing themselves to be prayed upon by corporate greed.”
I dont know if “allowed selves” is true…there is not another “democratic” system in the world where the markets couldve gotten away with what they did here, with mortgages. EU and others “went along”, but these govts have built in regulations and ways of nationalizing risk that prevents the complete free fall we are about to experience…
At the very least, most have social safety nets..

” It should be clear at this point that unions could not ensure protection from every aspect of exploitation however hard they tried. It comes down to each individual to make good decisions, and when this responsibility is removed, so is freedom. Now people are faced with this choice. Are they going to stop and think, or fly into hysterics and buy into the next slave bait that is waved in front of them.”

I think that Unions COULD (they havent), and I really hate to think of every individual out there alone, trying to become “educated” about the uS “free market” system and mortgages, that can fundamentally change with the pen of Grahamm,etc. Alot of these people were WW II era people who thought a BANK was a BANK…maybe something similar happened to you. If so, I dont see why you should blame yourself. I saw some of these contracts, for mortgages and investments. They were designed to screw people and make maximum profit…that is all. The MSMS’s crap about “consumer education” is just that. When they can change the conract and you cannot—-any attorney can tell you that that is a recipe for disaster..

I dont know. They seem to do pretty well in more advanced countries—Unions , I mean..if this is truly the end of manufacturing in the uS, and, the total collapse of Unions, (some say has already happened), we are in for horrors never imagined by most here…the prime reason Unions are so weak, is that they were de-fanged by the likes of Reagan and Taft, and, they have no “party”—there is no “labor party” here, as there is in most other advanced countries..

All that being said, I suppose maybe I took your words out of context? I am just a little tired of the entirely different treatment of working vs investing classes in this country..the “rules” just dont seem to apply to them..

Clash—I believe you are correct, about alot of things. Nationlizing the corp. , and putting them in the hands of worker—that would be a miracle. It might just save the failing middle class….they deserve the same chance criminal Wall St got!!

truthdigger3—I think you have something there..I have said it, and been castigated for it.The Phase Two Shock Doctrine… The “disloyal opposition” (Dems) kept tossing out the “private jets” red herring (or, at most, posturing!), and the media bought it right up!~ What, did they think Wall St. drove in carpooling Toyotas? How did Congress get there? bicycles? Mini bikes?

This may well be a continuation of Dubya’s “war for the haves and have mores”..and here you thought he was “stupid”...lol

The one time the Union boss (UAW—I had his name..) spoke up, at all, Dodd, just ‘waved it on”! Rep. Shelby , from Alabama smirked and smartassed his way through the entire thing, knowing that the GOP has already lost Ohio and Michigan votes—and the Dems sat there with their thumbs, mostly or played along. Sherrod Brown and others were the few exceptions…the Unions have given up enough! Do we believe in the decent treatment of workers in this country or do we not??

I wish to hell that they had brought the same scrutiny to the finanacial market bailouts! cant afford it? Is it $850 billion? No? Talk to the hand….

Cant afford national health care, which might give the employees enough legroom to bargain without giving up simple human dignity? Cost more than $850 billion? No? talk to the hand!!

It is a series of horrible decisions on the part of the CEOSs, Wall St, and all the international financiers that has put these corp where they are. The people who raised production levels, dramatically, and worked their lives away in these, often unpleasant conditions should not have to pay the price..

If Dems dont start backing up Unions a little more, look for Third World conditions and sweatshops—or “welcome to Wal Mart”...it may be unavoidable anyway. The “party of the people ” indeed! They are , now, the party of big money!Did I really expect them to handle it any better? I guess I shouldnt have.

Congress—-psssst…your classism is showing..

KDelphi: “WTF do you think you are? Eat robots!! ”
Oh, sorry, I guess that is not indignation, or else it wasn’t you who typed that in there.
Look, when you took the provocative statement with offense is when it got personal. What class are you anyway. Have you divided up the classes by job title?
I am working class, I don’t have any frigging capital to live off. I am retired, I live of social security because the $50,000 plus that I and my employer put into 401k’s is now worth about $7,000.
Actually I figured it would be worth shit to begin with since I am aware of how such investments work.
So the examples are illustrations of system merits, or unmerits if you will. In china, the govt. pays for education, here, you can go into debt for the rest of your life, to get an education that let’s you get a job that doesn’t pay for it. NIIIIICE HUH?
The examples of industry (I don’t need all the plastic polution) is to illustrate that jobs ARE created. But only so much as makes tons of money for the finacier. 400 people stuffing circuit boards? Not enough profit, make me a robot!
1000 people pooring fruit cocktail into jars and screwing on the lids? Not enough profit, build me packaging machines.
Well, what if all this innovation, energy, materials etc. were devoted ONLY to producing more basic things. You know, things we all need, food, cloths and like that, instead of gross excess for the purpose of profit for capitalists. And people entertained themselves with their own wit and invented their own pastimes?
Well, not many people would have to work. Only the talented and inventive. And massive polution and waste would not be created. Resources would not be depleted. PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE SLAVES TO A PLUTOCRACY!
Imperialism has been around since the late 18th century. It is the power and the politics behind those things that you decry, not some other ‘class’.
Great thinkers like Marx, Trotsky, and Luxmeburg have given answers, and the people have fought this battle for a long time. But it can never be won until enough people start using their heads and simply reject Plutocracy. The task is reaching people with ideas, part of the battle, ‘winning minds’. Imperialism is in it’s death throws. This power of knowledge is rising up against ingnorance. But people have to keep their heads and seek out answers, and communication, and orginization. It’s going to be tough but the final battle is being waged - NOW!

In my humble opinion that auto companies crisis is
blown out of proportion to get more concessions from
the unions and shift more manufacturing off-shore.
Now the naive unions are talking about giving concessions which they did many many times before
only for temporary relief, then another concession
is demanded or else and so on so on….
The congress gave the banks all the bail-out they wanted without a single question asked, but look at the charade and posturing in the current hearings
for a bail-out for auto companies. It is nothing but
theatrics and bull-shitting to create a sense of a
crisis and screw the workers.

The auto corporations namely GM and Chrysler are teetering on the brink, I have listened to the congress address what they consider to be the only options for overhauling these failing industries, bridge loans with conditions, loans from existing legislature meant to improve café standards, and bankruptcy.

Now we have some that think a take over by a government subsidized foreign auto maker might be the answer. Boy that’s real progressive.

Spend 2x the tax money that the company’s are now valued at then we need to be the owners , that’s right NATIONALIZE these corporations since they are to big to fail. This will allow us to depose their current leadership, allow the UAW time to restructure and give control of future transportation to the people, all the while protecting the countries previous investments.

With the restructured UAW at the fore front Universal healthcare just might be within reach.

Break the unions’ corporate leadership and put the union back into the membership’s hands and you have a ready made organization for changing the political power structure of this country.

Once again you are amazing! But you are ordinary. You dont care about anyone but your own “class”. I would be afraid—but they could always hire you in Beijing..I’m certain Manadarin woudl be a cinch for someone like you.

Youre right—everything is just going swimingly…

I dont get the part where I “reacted with indignation , naturally”? Why? How would you know? You guys always do this—when most disagre with you, make it personal. I got hit by a drunk—how the f**k is that MY FAULT!Maybe its yours—-maybe the brakes failed!

Tell me, what do you KNOW I am going to say next? How will I respond, Nostra-dumbass?!

It isnt always a cliched “blame game”—often, someone is to blame…

We can agree to disagree whether all those “Plastics of every shape and size” is what the planet needs! I can assure you, I’ve THOUGHT about it! I was a social worker for many years, and, since you have proabably , well, not a long record of working with human beings, of course, you dont understand.

“I dont work” is not the same as “I cant work!”, I worked for almost 25 years! Have you?

It seems the foresight was Chinese—not yours.

You did not answer ie. people who cannot afford education or who cannot pass the classes.Thats because you dont care. OK. But, youre still an asshole.

Wait—are you a robot??

“Reflect on something like the canning industry, and how it has evolved to a phenomenal packaging industry where plastic containers of every imaginable style size and shape are blasted out by robotic machinery at thousands per second….”

??And this is so great (and dont say “hospital products”—they are not “every shape and size”)

WHY?? Do you buy all this plastic shit? cause my pc is , like used, and I dont like plastics. They cause cancer. I avoid them at every chance.
I can assure you that the USAns wil not sit there and take this shit forever.

It is harder and harder to avoid plastics, since you guys started making everything in cars PLASTIC and “factory sealed”. These were decisions by CEOS and engineers—not laborers.Yes, by all means, pick on the laborers, the poor, the sick or the disabled. They have way too much power already…easy targets coward.

KDelphi: And of course your reaction is indignation. See! It works. And the excuses spew forth. It was about a decade ago when some engineering assistants that worked with me were chinese students. Their education was paid for by the Chinese govt. I thought gee that’s dumb, these guy’s will never go back to china, they will apply for citizenship here because they will graduate and get good jobs here. Which they did. And got good experience here. But guess where they are NOW? Hah they went back to china. So maybe the chinese government wasn’t so dumb after all. FORESIGHT!
And what would my job have been without labor. Well it would have been a whole lot better paying because the demand for robots would have been far greater.
Reflect on something like the canning industry, and how it has evolved to a phenomenal packaging industry where plastic containers of every imaginable style size and shape are blasted out by robotic machinery at thousands per second. Jobs? Think about it! Reflect on the electronics industry where once people sat with rolls of wire and parts the size of medicine jars, that has evolved to laser etched micro-circuitry and robotic assembly where hundreds of computers a second are produced. JOBS?
Think about it.
So all this product, which once was a market factor of labor, pretty much just happens. POW! All this commerce and all the profit, and all the credit generating MEGA CAPITAL GAINS. For who KDelphi? For you? WHY SHOULD YOU HAVE TO WORK AT ALL? THINK ABOUT IT!! YOU DON’T! And that is the point.
All this is about generating capital for the elite, job creation, crazy fantastic products, credit to buy them with. Ads to sell them with. And you go for it. But what if you didn’t? Think about it! Stop the damn fool blame game and take responsibilty. Live life the way it works for YOU. Or buy into some avarice, deceit, and delusion that blows up in your face and then play the underdog. What’s done is done and time is a one way trip. You didn’t get your boat? THAT’S YOUR FAULT!

Ham-Archy—Such hubris is certainly not a rarity these days, but, some of you never cease to amaze me!” My response to them was that they should think twice. The only reason that they still have jobs, is that I let them, by not having yet designed a robot to replace them. Of course the reaction is indignation, but the point is that laborers have jobs because those jobs are created for them.”

WTF do you think you are? Eat robots!!

And what, exactly, would your job be without labor? I live in the Rust Belt. The crap that is going ‘round the net about what these workers are paid, and their benefits is so much horseshit! The Unions (which are crappy in the uS—we shouldnt abandon them , but strengthen them!)sold out a long time ago. But the alternative is a Third World country. 

They build your struff (without melamine for your kids), trust your crappy, crashing pcs; get blown up in your Ford Pintos (my dad was an expert witness on that case—)and, now they must “choose freedom”—what- to die with their rights on?!They fight your wars, they cook your food, they make the wonderful stuff you design—checked US engineers record on safety lately? People do NOT send jobs to other countries because they “value opportunity”! Its because they will do it cheap. It is because their country pays their health care. Their country is cheaper to live in. I think that corporate heads and people who support “globalization” should go live where they sent all the work!

PurpleGirl is right! “Hey if you are willing to strap on the Multinational Corporationist Yolk, go right ahead….But those of US who honor the dreams, struggles and sacrifics OUR ancestors dedicated to building this country for their descendants are NOT!...”

What of people who cannot PASS the “required education”? You know, people not as highly gifted as you? What of those that were born in circumstances that does not afford them the opportunities many had? Can you say Social Darwinism? What will we do with a country of “engineers”? My father was an engineer and a progfessor—he knew we had been making CRAP for a long time. And, he was very concerned about it—but, then he was a Human Factors Engineer—not a Robotics Engineer.

We dont “make things” anymore, primarily , because engineers are short-sighted, and, becaue big Captains of Industry can make more money elsewhere. They do not care if people are bleeding and dying, they still invest elsewhere. They invest in these wars, and , stil the uS military buys cheap ass Chinese bullets and body armor that dont work. They war profiteer, but dont even ask them to pay taxes to support the people they shun!

Maybe Third World status is fine with you. If I were you, I would fear that our fortunes rise and fall together—much more than , perhaps, you know..the big US myth of the “meritocracy”. The backbone of the “everyone has the same opportunity” economy we find our asses drowning in now.

A tide only lifts all boats , if you have a boat.

Why would Toyota want to take on GM’s problems when it is a very close #2 in auto sales behind GM as of January 08 and may have caught up to be #1 by now.  This proposal makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, this should put it in perspective for you.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1864667,00.html

Every one wants to blame ALL GM EMPLOYEES and RETIREES for GMs failures….The GM execs made SO MANY BAD DECISIONS.The UNION EXECS made SO MANY BAD DECISIONS….All I wanted was a decent job so I could save some money for my old age…All I wanted was medical insurance since I was injured-on the job-several times….All I got was KICKED IN THE ASS!!!!

This article is wildly speculative. It does ignore that financial difficultes are facing Toyota as well. How can Toyota assume GM’s problems at this point, whatever they are. It seems there is the perception that the UAW is a great issue here. The protection for labor that it provides would have to come from somewhere if industry is to survive in this country. However it has little effect on the efficiency of manufacturing. Technological innovation is responsible for the advancement of production methods that greatly reduce the cost of labor. This is what makes it possible for these jobs to pay what they do. At the same time it reduces the number of workers required to complete tasks. Unions cannot change this without blocking advancements, effectively making US industry as a whole uncompetative with more advanced nations. But unions are simply concerned with protecting laborers from exploitation.
My career was designing robotics, and artificial intellegence for advanced processes. In the past I have been confronted with union activists who saw this as a threat to labor. My response to them was that they should think twice. The only reason that they still have jobs, is that I let them, by not having yet designed a robot to replace them. Of course the reaction is indignation, but the point is that laborers have jobs because those jobs are created for them. Jobs do not exist because labor is available to them. Modern industry is the evolution of division of labor integrated with commerce and invention. The US is no longer an industrial nation. We have made advancements in science and technology that have paved the way to a new economy. Unfortunately not enough US citizens have chosen to embrace this new economy by getting the education required, and have let those opportunities go to people in other countries who saw the value of them. These same citizens have also neglected their own interests by allowing themselves to be prayed upon by corporate greed. It should be clear at this point that unions could not ensure protection from every aspect of exploitation however hard they tried. It comes down to each individual to make good decisions, and when this responsibility is removed, so is freedom. Now people are faced with this choice. Are they going to stop and think, or fly into hysterics and buy into the next slave bait that is waved in front of them. Hopefully, THINK IT OUT!

The choice is not simply between loaning GM $18 billion & forcing it into bankruptcy.

Anyone who has ever seen Who Killed the Electric Car? understands why loaning $18 billion to GM, a company with a stock value of slightly less than $3 billion, is an especially bad idea.  This is the same company which fought California’s zero emission vehicle requirements in every possible forum.  Its engineers produced the EV-1, a plug-in electric that could have long-ago ended our dependence on foreign oil.  But GM’s upper management insisted on leases while they lobbied for a repeal of the zero emissions requirement and then refused a multi-million dollar offer from the remaining leaseholders.  The last EV-1s were loaded onto flat-beds, shipped to wrecking yards and destroyed.

In the tiny minds of GM’s upper management, the EV-1, which with a better battery could have traveled more than 300 miles between charges, was too efficient.  There was the prospect of losing the monies that flow with the periodic oil changes, repairs and servicing of the internal combustion engine.  So these geniuses chose trucks, SUVs and Hummers.  Like so many of America’s economic elites, they adopted the short-term profits strategy of outsourcing in search of cheap foreign labor, losing sight of the fact that once the middle class aspirations of working class Americans were destroyed, there would be no one left who could afford to buy their gas guzzlers.

Instead of pouring $18 billion down the drain with a risky loan, the U.S. government should purchase the entirety of GM’s stock for its fair market value, sell off or liquidate the company’s foreign assets and convert its U.S. operations into the manufacture of solar aided, plug-in electrics, hybrids and high speed commuter rail.  GM should become U.S. Motors, a truly “publicly-owned” company which will never be outsourced and would not experience the drain of millions of dollars in CEO compensation.  Labor costs could be significantly reduced by our adoption of a single-payer health care system which would eliminate the parasitic middle-men (for-profit carriers and HMOs) which account for 31% of the spiraling cost of health care in this country as compared to administrative costs of 1% to 2% in single-payer countries—but that, along with the insanity of forking over billions to the speculators on Wall Street, are topics for another day.

Don’t look now, but there are still men and women alive in the U.S. who remember the day when Japan attacked our nation at Pearl Harbor, sixty-seven years ago tomorrow. I’d daresay that more than a few of them came home to take jobs building automobiles or to work at jobs in some way concerned with the car culture.
Evidently, these folks should now be told that, due to a kind of financial malfeasance that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is too inarticulate to explain, and in which both major political parties are deeply implicated, we should just cut our manufacturing losses, sell out to whomever, forget our national sovereignty, become the “Homeland,” and live, somehow, happily ever after on a diet of talk radio outbursts, blaming unions for our hunger.
Once America had a manufacturing base. We led the world, and we kicked the asses off Germany and Japan and all of their allies simultaneously. Look at us now. The disgrace of it all is almost too much to bear.

SCREW YOU!
Obviously you have no concept of what is really at stake here…It’s not GM, It good paying jobs with Health bennies and retirment security.
Heres a clue as to what will happen is the Union is allowed to be destroyed.
those 3buck an hour cheaper Auto workers will be next..my god they make a whole 25.00, that eats in to profits too. Oh and so does their health bennies (if they even have descent one right now).
Oh and those of you Pencil pushing White collars, once the Union costs are gone, there will be nothing to keep the floor from breaking out from under You too. Labor is a Commidity which the Corps have been driving down the cost of for Decades..Who’s been holding back this flood of third World standards, The Unions.
How and those 5 day a week 40 hours ..Gone.
those safety regualtions (OSHA) ...Gone
Those Holidays (paid or not) .....Gone
Those fringe benefits….Gone
Wages above minimum…Gone
the need for White collar middle management…Gone
Products to place on the WallStreet Betting tables…Gone.
Because they will always look for a Cheaper Labor market, regardless of what you do. Did you hear Fast food actually considered making the Drive through order taker a person living in India?
And as for Intellectual resources they’ve been sending them here, then taking them back to their own third world countries (cost less to KEEP them there)
also you seem to ignore the Fact the Japanese Economy ,thus their Corps are in as much of a meltdown as US.
Hey if you are willing to strap on the Multinational Corporationist Yolk, go right ahead….But those of US who honor the dreams, struggles and sacrifics OUR ancestors dedicated to building this country for their descendants are NOT!

Oh irony of ironies, then a Japanes automaker will build machines for the US armed forces!

Yeah, brilliant, because we don’t want to support our companies with benefits or cash in tough times (regardless of mismanagement) we should sell those companies to foreign companies whose government does support them.

Keep in mind that Toyota’s November sales were down 30some % too.  Ed Harges is right about benefits.  And the Japanese government has long subsidized the hybrids to as much as $20,000/vehicle to make them reasonably priced.  There’s nothing wrong with that; in fact, it was a very smart move by the Japanese government.  Too bad our government only subsidizes guns and dictators (and now banks).

If any really different plan should be followed it would be Michael Moore’s silly plan of just having the government buy the automakers.

Besides, from Toyota’s perspective the best thing to with GM if they bought it would be to gut most of it.  Just eliminating redundancy would put an and to a great many jobs.  And which vehicles would Toyota rather sell, a Toyota or a Chevy? 

Besides all that, they already work together.  What, you haven’t noticed that the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe are the same car?

no i dont think tax payer dollars should go to help a company which has been shipping american jobs to mexico.its a shame they made their own beds now must lie in them.its sad because alot of american jobs rely on these car companies.its a shame as well since so many americans in the past have worked for these companies to help get them where they are.gm and ford screwed up.

That’s a good point Ed Harges.  If the US government paid health, pensions, etc, US industry would be more competitive with world industry.

That is a major historical reason why the US power system is so obsolete.  Under neoliberalism, the governement is divorced from regulation and people expenditures, and threatened with being drowned in a bathtub.  Instead of the government controlling the banks and corporatiions, the corporations and banks control the government.  And consequently cannot compete with a more effecient economic system.

In this cass, it offers the economic power structure a way to destroy the auto unions if the major auto companies go bankrupt.  And this is what may be done under both Bush and Obama.

P. S. I still remember pelosi’s speech on the 1st vote of the $700,000,000,000.00 bailout and how she wanted it to NOT be paid for by the taxpayer and that oversight, regulation, transparency and accoutability would be required. NONE of that happened. It all because paulson’s money and we already see where it is going, vacations, ceo salaries, golden parachutes, just everything pelosi said it would NOT be used for.
And she still voted for it both times if I remember correctly.

Well everybody, I called this or did I not?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28067839/

The article is titled “Dems, White House move toward auto deal” and guess who is in charge? Pelosi. This blue dog is hell bent on taking this country down where once again her personal idea of businesses that are too big to fail will place more burdens on the taxpayer. The money is from the original bailout for ‘environmenal cars’ (whatever that means in corporatese) and will be paid back in a matter of weeks. I mean is this bitch joking or what? She is going to insure that the bailout money goes to the american auto industry and they will pay it back in a matter of weeks? Someone hurry up and impeach this traitor to the United States of America.
This ‘infusion’ of cash for those executives will be enough to cover them until the spring when obama can consider the situation again. Maybe someone should just go ahead and nuke this country and get it over with because until 1.20.2009 we will all get to see how much more damage our congress and the white house together can create. AND THERE WILL BE NO WAY TO STOP THEM!!!!!!!
And my bet is that after obama is in, other industries that have offshored jobs and sold out to cheaper countries for what ever, will jump on what is left of this $850,000,000,000.00 golden parachute lined with platinum and embedded with diamonds. Keep watching, as that is exactly where that money will go, more corporate welfare and rewards for those that have run this country into the ground and not a GODDAMN one of them will be held accountable.

Here’s a better idea: Re-introduce import tarriffs to protect our industries and out law outsourcing to prptect our workers. Or is that too much common sense?

Why don’t we simply outlaw big oil bribing General Motors executives to in turn bribe congressmen to block radically improved fuel efficiency standards.  Electric cars you plug in at home would sell like hotcakes but the criminal conspiracy of Big oil and the automobile manufacturers prevents it. 

The damned Republicans are for seeing GM and Ford bite the dust because as they admitted they are representing Toyota as Toyota provides jobs in their state.  I think the Republicon congressmen should have to register as foreign agents. The crime is becoming so blatant.

We are allowing our country to be sold out from beneath us by criminals.  How about we DON’T ALLOW THIS!

Ridiculous.

And thus is created another industry of corporations too too big to fail. On the other hand, surely toyota would bring the quality that has been lacking in american auto makers and maybe keep a significant portion of those workers employed but would definitely slam shut the door of a needless bailout at taxpayers expense to those incompetent ceo s and upper management types hoping for another golden parachute.
But prick paulson will bail them out, just you watch and see.