I would LOVE to think that you would all keep the separation of church and state, and, that everyone would STOP trying to “prove” anything about god, or a lack of one, because it cannot be proven nor disproven. Why dont you just behave the way your religion tells you to and, if there is a “god” you’ll be ok?

If there were some kind of “god” who judged you more on the culture you were brought up in,(c’mon! THAT is what your “religon” is based on! Or did your just happen to “pick up your particular book” one day, and decided to “believe it above all others”) than your actions, as Holden Caulfield said, “If there is a god, he’s a real shit”.

If there were one and he cared if I said that—why would he let me think it? Free will? Well, that’s crappy! Give us nothing more than what we’ve been taught, to judge what to believe, and, if we pick the wrong parents, burn forever!

I would love it if everyone just kept their religion between themselves and who they think that their “maker” is.

“Imagine there’s no country, it isnt hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too…”

Imagine…

I would LOVE to believe that Christian Dogma would NOT forced down Jews’ and Moslems’ throats (not to mention fellow Christians.)

Excuse the typo.  TD doesn’t have an edit function for posts.

Tony Wicher, December 14 at 4:09 pm #

My position continues to be that ethnic nationalisms such as Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism are incompatible with universal principles of democracy and human rights. By the same token, laws favoring one religion over another are likewise incompatible with these universal principles, whether the religion favored is Judiasm, Islam, Christianity or other…...
***************************************************

You know what, TW? I would LOVE it if Jew and Arab could live, work, cooperate and vote side by side. 

I would LOVE to believe that the 613 Commandments wouldn’t be forced down Moslems’ and Christians’ throats (not to mention fellow Jews). 

I would LOVE to believe that Sharia wouldn’t be forced down Jews’ and Christians’ throats (not to mention fellow Moslems).

I would LOVE to believe that Christian Dogma would forced down Jews’ and Moslems’ throats (not to mention fellow Christians.)

But I don’t. I was born, grew up, live, and expect to die in the USA, my home and everyday, here, in America, people are trying to force their vision of Christianity down my throat.  When I was a child, my parents’ tax dollars went to pay for our town’s Christmas decorations on every street lamp.  Every year, some Christian jingoist wanted to put a creche on the public high school lawn.  After all the church to the right of the school, to the left of the school and the third right in front of the school all had creches—but that wasn’t enough.

Today, here, in America, the only thing that’s changed is they are pushing harder to shove Christianity down our throats. 

In the UK and other European nations, extremist Moslems are demanding that they be allowed to live under Sharia, pushing to the point where Sharia supercedes state law. 

In Israel, if you drive through a Chasidic or ultra-orthodox neighborhood on a Saturday, you’ll be stoned.

People who have hated and feared each other for decades simply cannot be told: “Ok, put down your guns, move on in, and we’ll all live together.”

It’s simply naive and rolling the dice with other peoples’ lives. You have no right to do that, TW.

Look at how Europeans FINALLY can live and work together.  But they didn’t just shake hands and start.  The European Union didn’t spring out of nowhere.  Remember when they used to call it “the Common Market”?  Back then it was actually 3 communities: The European Coal and Steel Commission (the first), The European Atomic Energy Commission (EurAtom) and The European Economic Community (The EEC or Common Market).  But even they took decades to build and expand, decades of mistrust.

France blocked Britain’s entry until 1972, when the 6 (BeNeLux, Germany, Italy and France) went to 9 (UK, Ireland and Denmark).  In 1976, and early attempt at controlling currencies together “The Snake” fell because pressure on the Franc to devalue and the Mark to revalue was too great.  Even today Turkey is blocked from entry, though it qualifies on every ground other than part of the nation is in Asia.  Ireland blocked the EU Constitution, though NO nation has benefited more from membership. Ireland went from an economic slum to powerhouse—all due to EU membership.

Yet you expect Jews and Arabs to put aside 60 years of war without going through the progression of stages Europe has gone through. 

I just don’t get it, Tony. You KNOW it cannot work. You KNOW they must learn to live nation by nation, to learn to trust each other, to build economic ties.  Yet you just don’t want to see that.

Fordham Law?

Robert—Do you know Brian Glick of NYC, of “War at Home—Ciovert Action ...”?

Inherit The Wind, Robert, Fadel:

My position continues to be that ethnic nationalisms such as Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism are incompatible with universal principles of democracy and human rights. By the same token, laws favoring one religion over another are likewise incompatible with these universal principles, whether the religion favored is Judiasm, Islam, Christianity or other.  It is counterproductive and only leads to more war for both sides to continue blaming the other for deficiencies which both equally suffer. It must be understood by both sides that adopting these principles is absolutely essential to being a functioning country in the world today. This is the only solution to the conflict. The United States, where these principles are enshrined in our Consititution, must mediate fairly between these two undemocratic parties, rather than pretend, as we have have been doing, that Israel is democratic and the Arabs are not. This hypocrisy must end; otherwise there will be no justice and therefore no peace.

There goes ITW with his usual rants…anti-semitism, Holocaust denial crowd, lies and those common zionist attack methods….

BTW, Naeim Giladi is Jewish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BEN-GURION’S SCANDALS : HOW THE HAGANAH AND THE MOSSAD ELIMINATED JEWS
   

“Giladi wrote this book tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.”

Author: Naeim Giladi
Publisher: Dandelion Books, LLC
ISBN: 1-893302-40-7
Binding: Trade Paper
364 pages
Product ID: DAND00021

PRICE: $18.95

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/bookstore/productdetails.cfm?merchid=16

As usual, Robert digs up the garbage from the anti-semitic web sites to try to deny that the Arab nations expelled their Jews when Israel was formed.  It’s another Holocaust denial crowd trying to convince us the Holocaust didn’t happen. Now the forced exile from the Arab lands didn’t happen-it was Mossad and Irgun making war on Jews to save Jews….Usual Robert illogical lies that don’t even make sense.  They don’t even parse.  Like insisting the more you soak the kindling in the lake, the better the fire lights.  Doesn’t work that way.

See, Robert like all the others, is trying to develop a justification for the slaughter and forced exit of every Jew from Israel.  Then, when caught with his hand in the cookie jar (like now) he’ll say “no, no, summa mah bes’ frens are Jues!” 

I have no support for the settlers.  I don’t want them to prevent ending hostilities, so both can live in peace.

But Robert doesn’t want peace, certainly doesn’t want a negotiated peace—that would mean everything he believes is wrong.

Bad news, Bob. It is wrong.

THE JEWS OF IRAQ

by Naeim Giladi

Courtesy The Link, Volume 31, Issue 2, April-May 1998

The author, Naeim Giladi

“I write this article
for the same reason I wrote my book:
to tell the American people,
and especially American Jews,
that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews; and that,
to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions
rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.”
I write about it because I was part of it.

ABOUT THIS ARTICLE:

The Link interviewed Naeim Giladi, a Jew from Iraq, for three hours on March 16, 1998, two days prior to his 69th birthday. For nearly two other delightful hours, we were treated to a multi-course Arabic meal prepared by his wife Rachael, who is also Iraqi. “It’s our Arab culture,” he said proudly.

In our previous Link, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe looked at the hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians whose lives were uprooted to make room for foreigners who would come to populate confiscated land. Most were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe. But over half a million other Jews came from Islamic lands. Zionist propagandists claim that Israel “rescued” these Jews from their anti-Jewish, Muslim neighbors. One of those “rescued” Jews-Naeim Giladi-knows otherwise.

In his book, Ben Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn’t get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. “I am Iraqi,” he told us, “born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American.”

John F. Mahoney
Executive Director,
Americans for Middle East Understanding (AMEU)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs.”
~~~~~~~

For the rest of what Mr. Giladi wanted to tell Americans & American Jews…click on URL:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

Re Muscleboy, December 9 at 1:58 pm #

By the same token, militant Arab nationalism and Islamism must also be isolated and marginalized to make a real peace process possible. These are as incompatible with democracy and peace as militant Zionism, in the same way and for the same reasons. If the United States would treat them equally, negotiations could proceed. Israel is a “democracy” for Jews only.

Inherit The Wind and Tony:... Iraq had no civil war.  It was engineered by the US and British military run by the Bush-neocon psychopaths.  Entirely engineered.  The Muslims, if anything, are too damn peaceful considering what we did to them.  And the truly faithful Jews of Israel are also very peaceful.  With the right framework I could actually see your point, that a one state could work, but as part of this change of paradigm you would be eliminating Zionism.  I think most people would be in favor of this in Israel and Palestine if we could some how convey the true message of this.  And yes I would trust both sides to live in peace under the terms described by Tony.  But 2 state could work also. Either way we’d have to get rid of the very extremist Zionists for it to work.

Sepharad:Israel is something god must make not men.  Yes. But calling it Israel was rejected by all Rabbis at the time of modern Israel’s creation. They also say that Zionism is not Jewish but an evil group of people trying to trick the world for the purposes of power and greed.  Zionism itself is evil.

There is no valid reason, today, for the Jews to be of any concern unless they, themselves do horrible things, and I mean massively horrible.  Israeli practices, for example, are horrible things that are done as if they are legitimate, and all Jews everywhere support them, which is untrue in the extreme.  They have terrorized Palestine since their terroristic campaign against England to gain control of Palestine, in the 40’s.  Jews can enjoy very happy and worry free lives in the world of today where only actual truth will cause such a terrible uprising against Jews again.  Why is Jew hating a guaranteed disease anyway?  Do we have such a thing as Christian hating? Is it called something as if it’s a disease? No.  And I think that it is IMPOSSIBLE today because every Jew I have known is honest and dutiful to a fault. A good friend to have and someone that will give you the shirt off their back contrary to the popular image.  I often say, quite seriously, that many Jews are more “Christian” than many Christians.  Welcome home to a free world, we should say to them. 

But if a two state it must be, then it will only be with Jerusalem split into the Jewish quarter going to the Jews and half going to the state of Palestine and maybe the Christians getting the remainder for international purposes.  This city is not and really never has been a Jewish city wholly.  In fact in the beginning days of the Islamic religion it was the direction they prayed to.  Today, of course, Muslims pray facing Mecca. Jews were an immigrant community to Palestine, the Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites who have been the primary inhabitants of Palestine since the beginning of known history. There is so much in the Zionist religion or belief system that isn’t even supported by many Jews, it certainly isn’t supported by Christians or Muslims.  It should really be an international City, in the end.  It is completely unacceptable for the Zionists to call it their capitol, yet they have, and should not. 

I see you are trying to seek some interesting balance between justifying Zionism and ending the extremist Zionists positions to an extent.  You won’t get their, not if peace is your goal. You must end all extremist Zionist requirements and be happy with this, it will lead to long term peace with the proper and consistent efforts made at injecting love into the process consistently.

We will have terrorists on the Zionist side and terrorists on the Arab side but I think at the end of the day they can be made to understand what life is all about and feel the joy of peace in their hearts. Nothing less than what I said will succeed.

I have liked to think of the Zionists and the Palestinians as having a shared “rejected status” although I don’t think this is really real.  I don’t think they are patients on a table but brothers by force of shared struggle. Of course I don’t think anyone truly rejects Jews or Palestinians as you will see when your tourism soars following this two state establishment.  But remember both states must be complete in all regards with full features of a state and dignity.  I think the USA and other countries should order the security not Israel over Palestine as it has been.  We must build an solid system that rejects escalation of a smaller event into fully armed conflict or invasion.  That too must be part of the system of agreement.  Terrorism requires police and judicial action not military.

ITW,

On the contrary, I believe that once the goal of a single democratic state is accepted, it will be up to the Israeli side to negotiate a constitution together with the Palestinians that will have iron-clad protections of equality, non-discrimination, religious freedom and civil liberties such as we have in our own constitution, but even better. I believe Israelis are smart enough and tough enough to accomplish this. I am talking about such things as full integration of the army, police and courts It should not matter whether in the end Jews are 40 percent of the population or 60 percent. I also believe this transformation would be facilitated by the strong support of the entire international community.

You continually assume that there won’t be immediate civil war.  Who is going to guarantee that? Didn’t you learn ANYTHING from Iraq???  It will be much, much worse.  And the extremists on both sides will be doing EVERYTHING possible to cause such a civil war.

Again, Tony, you are happy to roll the dice with other peoples’ lives.  You really don’t know what will happen—-you are just guessing.  Bush guessed. Look what happened.

Re Inherit The Wind, December 9 at 9:17 am #

Muscleboy: I’ve had this discussion with TW many, many times.  You want to just roll the dice with the lives of 5 million Israeli Jews at stake and HOPE the Palestinians don’t take it as a license to slaughter them.  It’s easy to risk someone else’s life on a gamble, isn’t it?  Just ask George W. Bush.

Our own Constitution was written by men who ASSUMED that scoundrels and scalawags would be in government and set up a system to counter-act them.  Yet you would believe there are no such scoundrels amongst the Palestinians and would set up a system that was totally vulnerable to them.
——————————————————————————
ITW,

On the contrary, I believe that once the goal of a single democratic state is accepted, it will be up to the Israeli side to negotiate a constitution together with the Palestinians that will have iron-clad protections of equality, non-discrimination, religious freedom and civil liberties such as we have in our own constitution, but even better. I believe Israelis are smart enough and tough enough to accomplish this. I am talking about such things as full integration of the army, police and courts It should not matter whether in the end Jews are 40 percent of the population or 60 percent. I also believe this transformation would be facilitated by the strong support of the entire international community.

Re Muscleboy

The reality is very simple.  We are all basically the same beings, interconnected through God or whatever you believe is the force of life.  There is no point in anything if it does not enrich and empower everyone in a mutually loving and caring way. If you see a point you are looking at your own fabrication of reality. We are all connected. We must all be brothers and sisters.  We cannot escape this by building walls and dropping bombs.  One would sit on their lounge chair with an icetea, only to wait for some other cars to drop a bomb on them. The Zionists must love the Palestinians like they are their brothers or they will certainly not be there forever.  Love is the only way to win this game.
—————————————————————————-
Muscleboy,

Absolutely right. There is no other answer. Everything else is just a temporary cease fire before the next round of killing. Of course, the same thing applies to the Palestinians.

On Zionism, although as a nationalism of ethnic identity it is fundamentally and forever divisive and anti-democratic, nevertheless there are all kinds of Zionists, from the most power-mad racists like Netanyahu to the most loving and humanitarian such as Uri Avnery and Michael Lerner. If any two-state solution could result in peace I would be all for it, but I doubt if it is even possible. However, we must work with the the humanitarians both in this country and in Israel while striving to isolate the fanatics.

I do not see the “One Democratic State” solution as implying that Jews will have to leave Israel. Quite the contrary; this is the only way Jews can continue to live in Israel in peace and security. But they will have to accept a paradigm change: to transform Israel from a Jewish state to a multicultural democracy, a country where Jew and non-Jew are equal in every respect and separation of church and state is strictly observed.

Muscleboy: I’ve had this discussion with TW many, many times.  You want to just roll the dice with the lives of 5 million Israeli Jews at stake and HOPE the Palestinians don’t take it as a license to slaughter them.  It’s easy to risk someone else’s life on a gamble, isn’t it?  Just ask George W. Bush.

Our own Constitution was written by men who ASSUMED that scoundrels and scalawags would be in government and set up a system to counter-act them.  Yet you would believe there are no such scoundrels amongst the Palestinians and would set up a system that was totally vulnerable to them.

There WAS a right-to-return, but with a closing date.  Back in 1948.  Some Palestinians used it, others left.  Now they want a do-over 60 years later when by far MOST of the Palestinians were born after 1948 (I don’t have exact numbers but if they followed world growth patterns maybe 1 out of 6 was alive before the right-to-return expired).  Choices have consequences.

Sepharad II:  I’m not sure I’m comprehending you completely nor that I agree with your position entirely.

My problem essentially is this: We are all basically a thing called souls.  Our body is kind of like a robotic interface that our soul occupies, some people call it simply a vehicle, let’s call it a “car”.  What kind of car you have depends on a host of things.  Some people think the car is what they and others actually are.  But, no it’s the soul inside, as anyone with reasonable sense would be able to understand with substantial effort.  I think I can even prove it scientifically although a won’t elaborate.  And by the way, to clarify, I do wholly agree with Oz’s mission, as I perceive it to be.

Anything you do, establishing rules about where people can and cannot live and who has more military might than another is all just superficial dust in the wind thoughts and wishes in the end. You have no more power than anyone else.  You can try to use your car and other cohort cars to repress and control others by chains and trickery but it all is for naught. These actions don’t have anything to do with actual reality. 

The reality is very simple.  We are all basically the same beings, interconnected through God or whatever you believe is the force of life.  There is no point in anything if it does not enrich and empower everyone in a mutually loving and caring way. If you see a point you are looking at your own fabrication of reality. We are all connected. We must all be brothers and sisters.  We cannot escape this by building walls and dropping bombs.  One would sit on their lounge chair with an icetea, only to wait for some other cars to drop a bomb on them. The Zionists must love the Palestinians like they are their brothers or they will certainly not be there forever.  Love is the only way to win this game.

Shepharad… I admire Oz, although I don’t always agree with him, I see that his objectives are good from what I know of him. 

We can’t have anything less than pre 1967 Borders; Israel’s capitol cannot be Jerusalem, it must be Tel Aviv; control of Jerusalem must be split or it must be made an internation city; full right of return or complete compensation combined with a reduced right of return with full protected status and powers of citizenship for those who return.  You can play games with justifications and right and wrong all you want, anything less than this is criminal and unforgivable. The stated objective should be to make everyone in Palestine friends and brothers; Israel and Palestine, that is.  Zionists have their own set of beliefs which is their right to believe those things but they have no place in the final settlement if we are to succeed at true peace.

Tony: Regarding the 1 state solution.  Many of the Orthodox Jews that are completely opposed to Israel’s very existence exclaim loudly that Palestine had very happy Jews living with their Muslim friends and there were no problems for hundreds even thousands of years before the zionists.  Even today Israeli Jews that are found living in towns with Palestinians end up being the best of friends. The Orthodox Jews and Ultra Orthodox jews who hold this opinion say the state of Israel must cease to exist utterly, that no peace will ever occur with the Zionists involved in the process to any extent.  Some go on to say that there seems to be huge evidence that the powers that be of international Zionism don’t regard anyone else as even human and certainly not worthy of taking what Zionists declare to be theirs(Most of the middle-east not just Palestine) a kind of ultra racism taken to the most remote extreme with a never ending global bloodlust for power unchecked partly because of the bought-off and hijacked Western democracies.

Ok I can see their point.  However, the problem is you would be agreeing with them and we could house Jews from Israel at places around the world, USA and Europe.  And this would end this theocratic racist state if that’s what you believed and certainly a great many Jews and non-Jews do believe this.  But I think it is plausible to reign in the freakish elements of the Zionists and just say NO MORE and do so in a way that is respectful and caring for the reasonable Zionists and of course for the Palestinians who have suffered horribly under Zionist rule.

If you say no to either one of these solutions and there should be just one Israeli state you’d have to realize that Jews wouldn’t be the majority and it would no longer be a Jewish run state which arguably for sane people is probably a good think but it would effectively be option A, the end of the Zionist state.

But I see your point completely.

Kdelphi: No I’m not interested in what YOU SAY I SAID ETC.  I say one thing and you twist it around all you’re doing is playing some sort of game and I’m not interested. No more. You win.

Hope you get over that flare.

Muscleboy—I said I would come back here today, so I did. Didnt read everything, I’m having an RA flare. Gotta stay off my feet.

I still submit that Obama’s policy, on his website, looks nearly identical to Clinton’s etc., all before Bush. If that’s ok with you, ok.

But, since youre “not interested”, I dont know why I bothered. I posted Obama’s policies , asked a serious question, as to how that represeted “change” (except from Bush—which we had to do anyway, or change teh constitution), and you arent interested..

I fail to see how disagreeing, and, asking questions over and over, because I never get answers, except, “i think his heart is in the right place” (so were alot of peoples’ I think)is “arguing for the sake of arguing”. We shall see, and, I hope you are correct, as I have said.Cant belabor the point for a few days—sure that dose not disappoint.

But, I am certainly not the only progressive who will not be backing Dems if there is not more “change”. Chris Matthews and Norman Soloman and Tony Carpenter(name correct? I cant think on steroid shots), the latter two of pDA, are certainly counting on more. Matthews has a “theory” that Obama is appointing “centrist/right wing” , and that he will “move to the Left” I do not understand that theory—but I wish it was correct.I dunno—Matthews has been a pretty staunch ally.

You take care, too. We’re certainly going to need to. Peace.

Also, what I dont like about your style of “debate” (not you personally—although it seems to be impossible for people to not take it that way) , since you listed what you dont like about me, is that you attribute motivation to a person you dont know at all. Please dont do that.

By Folktruther, December 8 at 12:38 pm #

Way to go, Tony Wicher!  You reaffirm my faith that there is good in everyone.  Of course Obama opposing Israel has as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, since Obama has surrounded himself with Zionists. 
——————————————————————————-
F,

You may be right but I continue to nourish hope. At this point, I continue to believe that Obama is smart, knows what he is doing and his heart is in the right place.

re Sepharad, December 8 at 1:17 pm

“Do anything you can to help both sides because both are on the verge of making the most painful decisions in their histories. The Israelis, by relinquishing the occupied territories, will be ... taking very serious security risks from future extremist Arab powers who may, one day, use Palestinian territory to launch an attack on Israel which, after the withdrawal, will only be 12 kilometers wide right at the hip. The boundary of the future Palestinian state will start about seven kilometers from our one and only international airport. Palestine will be about 20 kilometers from half the Jewish population. Jerusalem will be on the border. ... The Palestinians, for their part, will have to say ‘goodbye, Jaffa; goodbye Be’ersheeva; goodbye, Haifa” which used to be Arabic and no longer are part of Palestine. This is going to hurt like hell.”
——————————————————————————-
Sepharad,

As an advocate of the One Democratic State solution to the conflict, that is, the reunification of Israel and Palestine into one country, what I don’t understand is why, now that as you say both Israelis and Palestinians finally accept that the other exists and is not going to go away, why they don’t see that neither side has to give up any part of the country that they both want, providing that they now learn to SHARE it, to both proudly say “This land is your land, this land is my land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean” - simply to live together, intermingled as fellow human beings and fellow citizens.

Why must this Holy Land be partitioned? I think maybe it’s against God’s will. And it does not address the fundamental principle that nationalism based on ethnic, racial or religious identity is anti-democratic.

Way to go, Tony Wicher!  You reaffirm my faith that there is good in everyone.  Of course Obama opposing Israel has as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, since Obama has surrounded himself with Zionists.  And it is not voting against Israel in the UN that is crucial, but the threat of denying them miitary, economic and ideological support.  None of which will happen under Obama.

But Israel is suffering from the usual megalomania of imperialism and the increasing opposition by the American population can discourage them from the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the Palestinians, largely by massacre.  This was done previously in the Beirut massacres, and Netanyahu is leading the election to become the premier of Israel.

Re Muscleboy

“If we are bound to Israel’s defense then they must be bound to our interests and that includes behaving in a proper fashion.  Jews don’t need a homeland they are not threatened and good people will protect them everywhere if they are.  But Israel exists and we have pledged support so Obama must make right our relationship and put a permanent end to this nightmare.”

Muscleboy,

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders. I quite agree with this. The U.S. must require Israel either to withdraw from the West Bank so that a viable Palestinian state can be formed, OR as an alternative to offer full Israeli citizenship to all persons living in the West Bank and Gaza and make Israel a country of all its citizens rather than a state where Jews are favored over non-Jews(the One Democratic State solution). The U.S. is Israel’s only ally and Obama has only to tell Israel the U.S. will vote against it in the United Nations if Israel does not comply. Given assurances of U.S. and international support, it will comply. 

The fact is that all nationalism based on racial or religious identity is anti-democratic, and that includes Jewish nationalism.

The following quote was taken from an article written in Army Times .com this article after one day on the site was removed and the bracketed words were not present when it was reposted. The entire article concerns the full time deployment of the third infantry division to the North American command. The point, be careful using the word truth it is a perspective not a constant. The ministry of truth can change that perspective at any time. 
“[They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control] or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.”

Bishop Richard Williamson 9/11 inside Job

Video, linked below, speech of the Bishop discussing the system of lies and the new type of police state we have today.  Do research and you to will realize that 9/11 was, in fact, orchastrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJhfQSspj2Q

Society of St. Pius X Bishop Richard Williamson Claims 9-11 Was An Inside Job

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2007/11/society-of-st-p.html

9/11 beyond any doubt was orchestrated for the purpose of deceiving the American people to lead to the invasion of Iraq and massive looting of the US treasury.

CFR Pushes for Change

Friend tells me that the Council on Foreign Relations is telling Obama that he should cut off all aid to Israel if they do not go along 100 percent with a full blown plan to lead to a secure and valid two state solution, in line with the Arabs 2002 proposal.  If true this is extremely good news.

2003 Poll

There was a Gallop 2003 poll where in 76 percent of Americans made clear they were in favor of cutting off aid to Israel.  This poll was literally buried alive by the Zionists in power and others.  But nonetheless it shows clearly what a fraud the entire Israel issue is.  If we are bound to Israel’s defense then they must be bound to our interests and that includes behaving in a proper fashion.  Jews don’t need a homeland they are not threatened and good people will protect them everywhere if they are.  But Israel exists and we have pledged support so Obama must make right our relationship and put a permanent end to this nightmare.  It is a waste of all the good times we can all have with a strong and secure and fully sovereign two states.

Ironically real Jews are the nicest people in the world.  These power hungry atheists running Israel are blinded by evil.  Israel is hijacked by freaks lets all together free ourselves and live in peace and joy. It is not impossible.

Enough

By imposing the 2002 Arab peace plan on Israel there we have radical change from even the most Palestinian friendly presidents prior.  And there are stark differences between Bush and all previous presidents.  Bush shut down efforts even to protect our nation from Israeli spying which Biden has made clear in the past, that ally or not, Israeli spies must be put in US prisons. Clinton met with Yasser Arafat in the White House every week or something.  Bush never met with him and had no real effort to communicate with him, worse he actually gave the ultra fascist party power in Israel and gave them the green light to kill Arafat.  Bush was clearly incapable of anything but the worst evil and empowering the most evil people on a global basis. He turned Blair in the UK into a neocon puppet psycopath and of course Brown was pre-approved by the neocons(israeli agents).

You see, after the election Obama made very clear that nothing less than the pre 1967 boundaries must be made real.  If that is moving to the center than I don’t understand the phrase.

Enough, you seem to argue for the sake of some kind of debate points.  I’m not interested.  Take care.

Muscleboy—This is from Obama’s website:

Israel
Ensure a Strong U.S.-Israel Partnership: Barack Obama and Joe Biden strongly support the U.S.-Israel relationship, and believe that our first and incontrovertible commitment in the Middle East must be to the security of Israel, America’s strongest ally in the region. They support this closeness, and have stated that the United States will never distance itself from Israel.
Support Israel’s Right to Self Defense: During the July 2006 Lebanon war, Barack Obama stood up strongly for Israel’s right to defend itself from Hezbollah raids and rocket attacks, cosponsoring a Senate resolution against Iran and Syria’s involvement in the war, and insisting that Israel should not be pressured into a ceasefire that did not deal with the threat of Hezbollah missiles. He and Joe Biden believe strongly in Israel’s right to protect its citizens.
Support Foreign Assistance to Israel: Barack Obama and Joe Biden have consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. They defend and support the annual foreign aid package that involves both military and economic assistance to Israel and have advocated increased foreign aid budgets to ensure that these funding priorities are met. They have called for continuing U.S. cooperation with Israel in the development of missile defense systems.

So, since all US presidents have suported Israel, almost to the exclusion of Palestine and Arabs, Obama must do it, also. I understadn ath, to be elected, perhaps he must—but he was supposed to be “different”. “Not just a politician” everyone exclaimed..This is not helpful to Israel, either , you know. My brother in law is Jewish, and he thinks that Zionism is ruining the Jewish Americans, as well as Israel.

I am not tryibng to be argumentative, but, how does that respresent “change”? I am asking a serious question, but, now I must go cook dinner for a neighbor. I will check back here tommorrow, or whenever….

I will take your word for it on the AIPAC speech.

Kdelphi: Blah blah blah blah blah.

Lol sorry…anyway… 

Obama’s trip to Israel, I’m fairly certain, was in July and that is where he made the big mistake in speaking, I believe.  But he may well have had other mistakes, as humans do.

The Aipacians have threatened politicians in the USA with defeat if they are not obeyed.  With a network in the USA they have publicly stated is an extension of the IDF(Israel’s armed forces).  They lost bigtime this time.  Aipac used every trick in the book to try to defeat Obama but good prevailed.

As of circa November 2008, it is reliably reported that Obama wants the Arab peace plan of 2002 made a reality.  He has stated that that includes Israel removing all occupied territory settlements and returning to it’s pre-1967 borders.  This is a huge thing and has already, publicly, been embraced by at least some of the Israelis.  This could lead to legitimate peace where the welfare and interests of all are taken into consideration and fully respected.  I think issues like right of return can be settled partly by return and partly by monetary compensation.  It is a bold objective, with the USA and Europe and Russia, along with the Arabian nations fully behind it we can see two sovereign and secure nations come into being within as little as a year.  There are so many great motivators, but the USA must be very insistent with Israel and work to empower the decent people of Israel, it is our right and responsibility.

This is Obama’s position and it is his current position post-election day, verified as of about mid November to be exact.

Muscleboy—The AIPAC speech as made in Florida—Palm Beach or Miami—where there is a large retired Jewish comunity. If Oabama retracted that statement, I did not know it.

“What you do, that I don’t think I like, is try to pull out facts that support your opinion.”

Ah, yes…dont we all. I never stated that the “facts” are always the “facts”. We both found “facts” of disparate truth on different sites. That was my point, although I may have not made it clearly—you expressed hope that the internet was “opening up the truth ” (not your words) and implied that people would be less easy to lie to. I dont know if I trust that. I find alot of crap out there! And, people seem to be pretty guillable ...I had more hope about the internet years ago—I was “offline” for a time—I couldnt afford it. (still cant!)Since I’ve been back on, for about 8 mos. there is alot more censorshup, shrillness, and lying. Just plain lying.

“Try to imagine doing something familiar to your own personal experience:  Going on a business trip; going to a funeral by plane; going to take five end of term exams with no sleep and not quite as much studying under your belt.  This is what President Obama has had to do for nearly 2 solid years, running for president, nearly non-stop. This is but one of the facts that must be factored in to making a valid conclusion in our quest for the truth.”

Sorry, I cannot buy that one. Every candiate did this. The campaign should be alot shorter! It is just getting ridiculous, and, way too expensive. We need public financing, shorter campaigns, more parties, term limits, and, since I’m asking for everything (lol) a parliamentary system with multiple partes and proportional representation..just a couple things..

“The other problem I have with you is even after making a fairly well stated argument you seem to like to default to generally accepted wisdom on things such as “history is written by the victor” or some other such thing. ..”

I think that that statement is true, because, the losers are usually dead or in captivity.But, maybe you were not referring to actual wars.. if you mean that the truth will eventually come out, as in , slavery, or the uS treatment of Native Ams, maybe…but, that doesnt really help us now…maybe you think that the truth will come out sooner?

I do not feel “empowered” at all. I feel that I am represented by neither party. That is what happens in a duopoly.

I said over and over that I would love to be wrong about the Dem Party this time. I still hope that I am. But, you must admit—did you really think we would be talking about a transtion team of Gates and Clinton and Summers?

Peace, ok?

Xntrk—Some really good points. Thanks. I guess, I , too, rather remember RFK as to what he MIGHT have become. Yes, he did change—and he needed to! But, who am I to say?

I think that, if JFK had lived, he wouldve been considered a moderate. He sure did like cutting taxes and was pretty belicose on Cuba! But, I was way too young to remember—I do remember my mother concerned that he was “catholic” after he was elected—but, when my best friend took me to Mass years later—she was terrified! LOL! The “cathiolic mennace”! I also remember my parents as staunch GOP! (Esp my mom!) She campaigned for Nixon! (Also Goldwater). My dad liked Goldwater, but, began to drift wtih Nixon and cmpletely abandoned the GOP at Bush Sr’s “blood for oil” war, as he called it.

Too bad none of those people you name ever became president! Now, that wouldve been something! President Eugene Debs…President W.E.B. DuBois…now THAT I would like! Can you think of any present day people we could look to , for the same kind of inspiration?

Facts vs. Opinion?

I plainly go about the process of developing my opinions based upon, what I like to consider, a thorough review of the facts.  I like the process of TRUTH discovery as much as the event of discovery itself and believe in the end I’m always in the process to one extent or the other.  My conclusions are subject to constant review and reconsideration as well as the discovery of new facts.  I often tend to process my data in a way that, I feel, squeezes out the bottom line truth with extreme precision.  As such, I often come across as supremely certain, just a hair more certain than I actually am.

But for instance, the fact you sited regarding the speech Obama made before Zionists(I thought that speech took place in Israel?),where Obama made the misstatement that Jerusalem was and should go to Israel entirely, you failed to state that Obama completely retracted his statement. 

Try to imagine doing something familiar to your own personal experience:  Going on a business trip; going to a funeral by plane; going to take five end of term exams with no sleep and not quite as much studying under your belt.  This is what President Obama has had to do for nearly 2 solid years, running for president, nearly non-stop. This is but one of the facts that must be factored in to making a valid conclusion in our quest for the truth.  I also like to simplify my conclusions which works well with people from schools like Johns Hopkins who see the complexity in my simplicity but not so well with others, I’ve found; that is just a personal observation.

What you do, that I don’t think I like, is try to pull out facts that support your opinion.  What is different with my method is I try to find the truth in all the facts conglomerated and processed as carefully as I can.  The devil is in the details I have found so often.  Singular facts or even a list of facts is not the truth whereas a well conceived opinion can be. 

The other problem I have with you is even after making a fairly well stated argument you seem to like to default to generally accepted wisdom on things such as “history is written by the victor” or some other such thing.  I like to free myself constantly of generally accepted notions as part of my operational process for truth finding.  So many people feel some strange comfort in these notions almost as if they are empowered by being a member of the superset or something.

Alas, I do think there is extremely valid reason to be concerned about Obama and “the Democrats”, so we do agree, after a fashion.  But my current position is to be in a kind of holding pattern until all the dust finally settles, both ready to assist President Obama and to not, depending how things actually go.

Clash—Yes..or they are able, with help from the population to MAKE themselves stronger.

We pay for their “defense” of their money, resources, greed, and Imperialist ventures.

“We” also fight their wars. And we pay for them, by being “forced’ to “bailout” the financiers , who were already making record profits off of blood and treasuer, of our country’s , as well as the “enemy"s..

Has anyone’s pensison gone back up? I am beginning to think that the entire thing was a scam, to just take working peoples’ money. Well, I’ve thought that for awhile, actually. Shock Doctrine. Is the Big 3 Bailout the use of shock to scam labor? The Senate Hearings sounded like it.

In their own persons, mentally and physically, most are very weak.

We will have to let them know that we are no longer going to pay for them to kick our asses, starve us out, and, do the same to other populations around the world.

Ed—I have very little disagreement with you, I suspect. I have been going back and forth for several days, (well, not all day..lol) with Muscleboy, first discussing possible merits, and, the lack therof, of an Obama Administration, or more, to the point, another Dem Administration.

I suspect I disagree with Muscleboy alot less than he might like to imagine.Any anti-Dem Party talk seems to , these days, be taken as anti-Obama , personally.That is how the duopoly likes it.

The only reason I was belaboring it, is that, I seemed to be getting reponses that ignored facts (not opinions—although, I admit—as he would not, that alot of the net is opinion), I was presenting, and, was insisting that I just “did not understand”, or, that what I had posted was “of no consequence”.

It started out as a pretty civil discussion, but, deteriorated into a “flame”, and, I am not certain I know why.

It is just not as “personal” a thing for me, ie Obama! I just dont understand how people so “personalize” this guy (or any public figure), who doesnt even know them, probably wil never meet them, etc! He is not someone’s personal president to defend, as though, pointing out a disagreement with PE O were a personal insult to whomever you are speaking to…it is just strange to me..To me, he is another Dem. He is smart, likeable, and an excellent politician. These are facts. I insisted that I just do not think he is all that “differnt”. I didnt say that I think change , with Obama as president, is impossible.

I would just rather drop it. I thought I was having a civil conversation, and , suddenly, I found myself making points I didnt even give a damn about! I just personalize people who are “in my life”. I find that, doing otherwise, will ultimately lead to disappointment. They just dont know you!! LOL!

So, I apologize, if you jumped into the middle of that one…

I just do not think it is a matter of my “deceny” necessarily , when I misunderstand. I often say, that I dont “understand”, if I find an argument particularly specious, and, I try to stay open and see what the person really meant, ot let them explain it further. I dont really understand why that seems to be so often taken a an attack on someone’s personal integrity, as a “direct challenge”.It may well be a direct challenge to other “facts”...but, that is the point, is it not?

But, hell, peace! Go have a drink. Its 5:00 somehwere ! Buy me one. skol!

We aren’t toast, Ed Harges. Buck up!  take a historical perspective of the world power process.  Nothing significant is going to be changed by elections.  If they mandated significant change, they would be illegal. Obama is going to serve the power structure and sell out the population.  How is that any different from any of the other presidents weve had.

Instead of opposing Bush and the Gops, it simply is a matter of opposing Obama and the Dems.  He is promoting Bushite policies.  It’s still a problem of mobilizing the American people against American power.  As it always was.  No reason to dispair; at least it provides steady work.

Toujour gai, Ed.  And its never too early to drink.

Thoreau;

“Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient.”

“The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it.”

“After all, the practical reason why, when the power is once in the hands of the people, a majority are permitted, and for a long period continue, to rule is not because they are most likely to be in the right, nor because this seems fairest to the minority, but because they are physically the strongest.”

re: KDelphi, December 6 at 11:21 pm:

Yeah, the FISA vote is extremely depressing [sigh]. And don’t forget, Obama also went to Connecticut to campaign for Lieberman against the (relatively) antiwar guy.

Sh*t.

OK, so maybe under Clinton the general awfulness of our governance was a 7 out of 10, and Bush brought it up to an 11? And maybe I’m hoping Obama might dial it back down to an 8?

Or something like that?

Oh hell, we are so toast. And it’s too early to drink.

Muscleboy—it most certainly is not!!

YOUR point was that “you had so many internet sources”! If you dont even bother to check where it is from…!

What do you say to the fact that they called Kerry the “most liberal senator ” when he ran? Is he still? Who? Him or Obama?

Yes on FISA. Yes on war funding.But, we’ve been through this.

If you just support Obama no matter what—ok. Just stop ignoring what you dont want to hear, and calling everyone who disagrees “pointless”.

I said that we could agree to disagree. But, no, I must be pointless. Right.

Here is another “view” of his voting record:
http://www.radaronline.com/features/2008/03/adam_nagourney_national_journal_full_court_press_01.php
Sinners: Charles Green and the rest of the editors of the National Journal, for their ridiculous method of determining who has the “most liberal” voting record in the Senate.

Senator John Kerry (Photo: Getty Images) Just before Super Tuesday, the National Journal published a story asserting that Barack Obama was “the most liberal senator in 2007.” Here are seven reasons that this study is meaningless, except to the people in charge of attack ads for the Republican National Committee:

• In 2006, Obama was the 10th most liberal senator; in 2005, he was the 16th most liberal, according to the same statistical methods.

• The 2007 rankings are based on 99 votes—and Obama only participated in 66 of them

Check it out. See if you think it is “pointless”.

That is a “pro-Obama” site..
http://mediamatters.org/items/200802110008

Appearing with Buchanan on MSNBC, Air America Radio host Rachel Maddow noted that the “National Journal ranking ... conveniently in 2004 said that John Kerry was the most liberal senator in the United States Senate,” adding: “You know I think that [Sen.] Bernie Sanders [I-VT], I think that Bernie Sanders, the independent socialist senator, should be suing the National Journal at this point, because they keep deciding that the Democratic presidential candidate is more liberal even than he. If that’s the only thing they’ve got to throw at him [Obama], it’s ridiculous”

That is Rachel Maddow of MSNBC.

Here is from another, that WISHES he were the most liberal:
http://www.progressivepunch.org/members.jsp?member=ILIII

  Progressive Score (%) Rank
All issues 86.85 27/100
 
 
 
 
All War & Peace votes 88.64 28/100  
Corporate Subsidies votes 77.78 28/99T
All Human Rights & Civil Liberties votes 75.00 41/100
War & Peace votes 88.64 28/100  

I could probably find other places. You were the one that made a point of it.

Americans DON’T understand it, Ed Harges.  It is true that the Bushites have run the US into the ground.  They have conducted a political counter revolution militarizing US imperialism and neoliberal class inequality.

Obama is CONSOLIDATING that counter revolution.  He is promoting the War On Terrorism, neolibeal globalization, and the US police state in a more intelligent fashion than the Bushites.  BUT THEY ARE THE SAME POLICIES.

And you can’t reverse history and go backwards, any more than the Roman Empire could go back to being the Roamn Republic.  The Dem institutions are drained of people power; Congress and the Supreme Court is now largely a facade.  Lawlessness of the powerful takes place in plain sight, ignored by the centralized corporate media.  Education is continuing to deteriorate, universiteis becoming increasingly expensive to increase class inequality.
Prisons continue to overflow under both the Dems and Gops.

This is obscured and evaded by mainstream Prgoressives. They tacitly and passively support under Obama the same policies that they opposed under Bush.  To build an effective progressive movement, it is necessary to split the pro-
warterrorists from the anti- warterrorists.
War expenses, which are vastly underreported, make money for the population impossible.

Obama, Zionists, neoliberals, militarists, and Dem apologists are pro-warterrorists.  They support the Obama version of Bushite policies.  An effective progressive movement can’t be mobilized unless they are opposed.  Americans do not understand this yet.

yes Kdelphi the site is idiotic but they sourced Obama’s voting records from many groups all of which considered him 100 perent perfect in terms of being a true Liberal.  Groups like ACLU and NAACP.  What the group is that put the list together is beside the point like most of what you post.

Muscleboy—Did you check the home of that site you gave? Seriously.

I think it is important, because that was part of my point.

Goodnight.

Thanks for your comment Clash very interesting.  But I think Bush has shut down the credit markets and taken 700 billion and not done a thing with it other than pay off hoods and worse.  He is about to take down the US auto industry which employs a huge number of Americans directly and indirectly, it has been devastated by the activities of George Bush and I don’t think Paulsen is the crook Bush is but he is serving almost nearly at Bush’s will.

I am convinced they went in and shut down the super mortgage banks- Freddie and Fannie and fired their CEO’s who had just a few days before stated that they were fully able to weather the difficulties in the home-loan markets and would be able to fully maintain the markets using established procedures.

400 of the nation’s top economists signed a letter to Congress which was completely ignored stating that we were not in a crisis, that this crisis spin was utterly false and most certainly didn’t require a bailout of the banks to intervene in the difficulties.  The top economists clearly stated that Bush had tools which he could use to solve the problem—Bush needed top banking experts not day traders or other Bushites they said.  Of course Bush NEVER used any of these powers at his disposal and wouldn’t dare bring in any competent people into the US government which could see all the crooked things he does plus the fact that he’s doing the bailout to steal as much money before Obama comes into full power and render the new administration as powerless as possible.  Bush is trying to wreck the country to halt Obama’s change.

The relatively small LOANS to the big auto manufacturers should come from the 700 billion and Congress should HALT payment to Bush of the remaining 350 billion leaving it entirely for President Obama.  But the big auto firms should be required to pledge massive increases in fuel economy and, I think, 100 percent electric cars that can be plugged in at home with the best in technology.  People will buy electric cars like hotcakes at current electric rates it’s like paying 20 cents a gallon and if you plug your car in at night you will not be adding to the energy consumption of the USA as most of the electric grid is lost overnight hours—even if everyone plugged in their cars for charging.  This would result in a way to get us off foreign oil within a few short years, one of many ways.

The Dark Side is Like a Cancer

But we have to give Obama our fullest support if he does turn out to be one of us

________________________________

My guess is that — soon people will see that Obama is very much—anti Israel and will be supported here.

But, it will be a false peace…. because, the only reason why the “politicians” want a two state solution is so that they can sell arms to both the Arabs and Jews, in hopes — that they can both blow themselves up,  and off the map.

Musclboy—Here is the “home” page of the site you just gave, cnn vs. fox. Seems it is a conservative site. (Watch those sources, ok?)They trot out that ole “most liberal senator” everytime the Dems run a senator.

Obama voted very conservatively, but, maybe moderatley for a Dem. I am not a Dem, I was for many years. I cannot be one now.

Anyway, this is what the site says…YOUR SITE…this is what I mean about trusting the net…

“Obama:

I was hoping he was the real deal but I think he is looking like a standard politician. Go to the left to get the party’s nomination and then switch to the middle for the general election. Lots of earmarks. Shady real estate deal with a convicted felon. Not being truthful about his relationships with others [Once a little controversy comes up about an associate, he distances himself. For example, I believe he knew Rev. Wright for 20 years. I would have respected Obama if he had just said that he didn’t agree with the Reverend’s extreme positions but that the Reverend and his church do a lot of good. Instead he throws Wright under the bus and claims he didn’t know of Wright’s views.]

Government is not always the solution. I do not want a stronger federal government but Obama leans that way.

Too simplistic perhaps in suggesting taxes won’t go up for most because he will tax the rich and the corporations. A tax on corporations just gets passed on to…”

Before anyone jumps, these are NOT my words! The page I was directed too, just listed the voting status, as decided by differnt groups. Not the actual record.

Now, do you agree with this?

Look, if you are a Dem, you should feel as you do. I am not. We just have to disagree. I do not think capitalism works. I think that we are living proof of it. If Obama decides to “regulate”, it might make things better for awhile.  But, his financial team (so far) certainly wouldnt indicate it.

I am glad Obam beat McCain. I actually voted for Obama (for a friend) who now says she wishes I hadnt. I knew I would be throwing away a socialist vote.It was strategic.

As someone who is very “liberal” , I have to state my surprise at the conservative people he has picked…now, c’mon, you werent surprised??

I just do not see him as much different than any other moderate/centrist Dem.

I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.Seriously, our country is in the worst shape, possibly, ever. If I am, I wil meet you here in one year—deal? I will admit to being totally wrong about the Dems…promise.

This is more about the Dems , for me, than Obama.But, he is now the “head” of that party. I have been severely disppointed by the Dems. I already listed why.

It is 3:00 AM here, and my pc has crashed (logged off) twice. If I did alot of typos, sorry. I am tired. We just have to agree to disagree, ok?

BTW—I do take severe offense at being called GOP, especially as applies to Dubya.Tell Obama to throw him in prison, with all of his cohorts.

While I think I understand what Muscleboy is trying to say, I agree that this type of rationalization is bullshit- Berry lied to get elected so much for credibility.

We can watch this weak as the congress has another chance to continue the great American robbery as they deal with the auto industry. So far they have sided with the rich and powerful and as stated before they are not criminally stupid just criminals.

Miss rule at home and aggression abroad, have brought us to the brink aggression at home and miss rule everywhere, as the politicians are not going to give up their goals of greed until they have destroyed all that supports the midle class structure.

The Dark Side is Like a Cancer

The dark side lost this election.  But if it turns out they’ve infected Obama with their cancer then we’ll just have to figure out what to do going forward, or maybe just give up.  I know the Democrats will not do well in the 2010 election if Obama turns out to be even partly crooked.  We’ll know within the first month what he is.  I’ll be the first one to say.

Socialism hasn’t won anything.  Socialism has proven itself a failure overall except when it’s used as part of an overall free-market economy. But what Bush says when he says “free market” is “free enterprise” which is what the idiots in the Reagan administration called it, they were more honest. They want freedom from LAW entirely not so the market can be free quite the contrary they want only their crooked crimal cohorts businesses to have power and they want it to control the market. We are going through a form of it with banking, Republicon changes (current secretary Paulsen asked for and got a removal of the cap on equity requirements. Purportedly there are some investment banks with outstanding loans of over 40 times their assets now) we now have literal crime in banking and investing, the literal right to steal under the law. As we do in big insurance and other things like big oil. But with a healthier Democratic majority in both sides plus the utter failure of this so called “method” which it certainly is not a method it is a crime.  Don’t let these people say it is conservative to make banking legalized crime it isn’t but that’s EXACTLY what they did.  Whether Obama is hiring some of the infected dark side over and for what reason we will see.  I don’t want to have everyone accept or put up with anything from President Obama.  But if he is faithful to his campaign message(and no I don’t mean some bs interpretation of it I mean the received message) then he will need our support and we should give it massively.  If, however, he is not then we should become his worst nightmare. Make him regret actual birth.  Now that said, I was just making the point that this is not FREE MARKET we are seeing played out this is crime.  Free market is by far the most successful way to run an economic system with some aspects socialized and the entire thing living under proper laws and regulations devised by a free and open democracy, informed by a free and unfettered press(now made possibly by the internet).  We could have the most free most fantastic country in creation or even that we could imagine if Obama turns out to be uninfected by evil.  It is within our reach now.

Medicine shouldn’t be free market entirely there are just to many problems with such a thing.  I’m wholly in favor of some sort of single payer system and I think that is essentially what we will be beginning the process of with Obama’s plan.  Yes the dark side will fight tooth and nail if Obama does turn out not to have dark side cancer.  But if he sticks to his guns he’ll have a whole lot of friends on his side.  Most of the fortune 500 including these big auto guys. The entire country even if someone thinks they have full coverage many are now finding out it’s like getting a 5 percent off coupon when they go to the hospital.

So we could be going on a thrill ride of change. And once Obama gets the strengths of the good side built back up there will be no going back to the dark side. 

What won this election was KNOWLEDGE(brought by interconnecting new media and interconnecting people) and people waking up to the truth in spite of RACISM which is still very very strong and in spite of the crooked mass media.  But we have to give Obama our fullest support if he does turn out to be one of us. He will need it.

We don’t need any more business as usual.  We never did, now we KNOW we don’t.

Ed, yes,but that only works if the Dems vote differently than the GOP! Read some of these posts, and tell me that all I am saying is that the parties are the same. I did not say that.

Dubya cant do “evil” if he doesnt have the votes! The Dems voted for all this shit! And if you give them a pass—I can guaratnee they will do it again!

And if the argument about Obama ‘s FISA vote makes any sense to you—maybe you could have someone explain it to the Congersional Black Caucus, who mostly voted against it…

The argument doesnt make sense to me. I asked for it to be explained several times . All I got was something about my “decency” to read it. I said I do not understand the point.

If you think it makes sense, have at it. I’m all ears.

Obama’s Voting Record

http://cnnvsfox.blogspot.com/2008/02/clinton-vs-obama-vs-mccain-voting.html

And most of the time Bush was in power congress was entirely run by Republicons on both sides up until the last year when really on the House had it by a small majority and the Senate didn’t due to the Neocon Lieberman who of course supported the Republicon candidate for president and much of their agenda.  We’ve also thinned out in our top notch Democratic representatives quality wise. But with dems all around in charge we should see a very big improvement in all areas.  The big question is how President Obama actually does as president.  As president he will have massive powers to effect change in spite of Bush’s last minute efforts to destroy the economy and steal as much of the budgetary might away from the new president and Congress.  The current batch of Dems in power are beaten down by Republicons but I do admit they are not the best people overall to say the least.  We have lost so many good ones like Mike Barnes.  But with all around Dems in power and even more Dems if Obama doesn’t turn out to be a traitor.

I call Obama President Obama as he is the first elected president in the USA since Clinton.  There is massive evidence that Bush lost both of his elections.

OK, OK, we get it, Folktruther and others.

We UNDERSTAND that the US has never been - even before GWB - the prosperous beacon of sweetness and light we pretend to be. But things really have gone to a whole other level of destructiveness under GWB. It’s worse by several orders of magnitude.

We may be too wounded and hopelessly weakened to go back to the previous, much more manageable level of misrule at home and aggression abroad, but if only we could, that would certainly be a distinct improvement.

I READ IT< I WAS JUST HOPING YOU COULD EXPLAIN IT TO ME SO IT DIDNT SOUND LIKE A BULLSHIT EXCUSE!

“My point is that Obama may have signed the bill to counteract the image of him being so good a man.  Counteract that he is a threat to the criminals that be in our country.  Make these bunch of mass murdering thieves feel at ease with him and further those in the flag waving chorus of citizenry that they to would consider him less of a “communist-terrorist” if you will. “

Speaking of “English”—what is this language? Rationalization?
I am a socialist, and, since the free market has been shown to be a farce, never prouder!

Put on a tinfoil hat…

Kdelphi as best I can tell you cannot read.  You don’t have the decency to read what someone posts and to do so in a considered way or you just don’t understand English which I think is more likely. You are just here to trash people most likely just a republicon yourself.

MY POINT IN THE BOOK COLLECTION REFERRENCE WAS THAT WE ARE MOVING TO EVER BETTER LEVEL OF COMMUNICATION.

But I guess this is how people like you work to reduce the effectiveness of more liberal blogging.  It’s not working.

Muscleboy—Where did I say that “Obama/Dem”??Who are you talking about now? are no worse than Dubya? Dubya was simply aided by the Dems, as well as the GOP. Of course you have nothing to say to that, becasue your 45,000 books surely have Congressional records in them that tell you that that is the truth! If you cannot even see that—then, true, we have nothing mrore to say.

Several Dems did very brave things. I submit that Obama did not—in his voting record.

Dubya is the worst president we have ever had.

But he had plenty of help, and all of it was certainly not gOP!
Funding the war. FISA.USA Patriot Act. Iraq Resolution. Credit card and bankruptcy bills.The de-regulatin of the markets…Clinton, Glass-Stiegal and Grahmm. Blackwater. The fricking tax cuts.

Check the voting records. Or dont…

This is what I wrote:
My point is that Obama may have signed the bill to counteract the image of him being so good a man.  Counteract that he is a threat to the criminals that be in our country.  Make these bunch of mass murdering thieves feel at ease with him and further those in the flag waving chorus of citizenry that they to would consider him less of a “communist-terrorist” if you will.

I won’t repeat it again anyone can scroll down to my message entitled “there is hope yet” and decide for themselves rather than going by your transliterations.

BELIEVE ME I see PLENTY of reason to be concerned about Obama!  I’m just showing that all hope is not quite lost.

Also for anyone to report to me that Republicons especially George W Bush are no worse than anyone else; I have nothing to say to that person.  George W. Bush and his Neocon trash cohorts are the very definition of rotten evil.

muscleboy—Okey-dokey!

BTW—did you hear PE Obama’s speech to AIPAC? You should read it!

Here is how Palestinian Americans felt about it, on one site. There are many :

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/05/1117964.aspx

Funny you should mention Clinton’s blowjobs—-that was the least of his crimes!

“especially with the big shock of Clinton’s blowjob:)”...bizarro… “W. was open to doing literally anything without regard to reasonable limitations.”

How could you have possibly been “shocked” by Clinton having ANOTHER affair?!“W. was open to doing
literally anything without regard to reasonable limitations.”
Yes. With only a Democratic House and Senate to stop him .They didnt.
But, boy , we outed that blowjob!! Dems vote for FISA, go along with wars, but , the worst they do , is get blowjobs!

Typos are of less consequence to me, than, say blowjobs. I cant help mine.

Neocon-artists
Sorry for my typos.  But one more point. Again my point is a mini-version of my full message as we are somewhat limited with this comment format.  I think there is something very strange going on with these neocon nutcases. The Neocons, who are really just largely rooted in international zionism and live for that reason only, have started, in an earlier manifestation, as conservative-democrats, neo for new and con for conservative but not Republicons.  The falsly markted idea was keeping in line with the social liberalism but moving over to a conservative leaning regarding defense and other issues(mainly to hook us into what would be a war agains Arabs).  They tried to make a go of it with the Democrats but it just plain didn’t work.  They failed.  Too damn many honest decent Democrats for it to work.  Republicons are all about stealing from the Americn people through the defense department so…  then they got this creature that kind of looked and kind of talked like his father George H. W. Bush but he was a complete evil moron. He could trick the American people especially with the big shock of Clinton’s blowjob:).  W. was open to doing literally anything without regard to reasonable limitations. You may recall that H.W., speaking through others in NY times articles and by other methods decried his sons plan to invade Iraq.  Supposedly he was completely opposed to it.  But W. was full speed ahead-how-do-we-trick-the-american-people-and-congress mode. 

Now speeding forward to today we have a host of horrible things that have happened all rooted in people like Richard Pearl and Douglas Feith who have little or no care for the USA except what they get out of using it and stealing from it.  Well having done all the Neocon agendy times 10 it’s been a complete and utter disaster to the point where even the Neocon criminals at the defense department are coming out saying how much they disagreed with George Bush, which is complete lies.  They are trying desperately not to have to have plastic surgery and hide out the rest of their rotten lives for their association with W..

So I don’t give anything they say any weight whatsoever, they are trash.  We’ll see how it goes.

muscleboy—Once again, I just do not see what you are basing your trust on. Certainly not the history of the Dem Party!Do you not see them as collusional in all this…the statement that Obama did this to “prove he wasnt the good man”—I dont even know what that means!

I think that, when people cant think of any real reason as to why they should still trust the Dems, concerning Obama , they throw in race. I dont think it had to do with his race, that he voted for FISA—how can you say that?  29 members of the Senate voted Nay.

Even more in the House, and Rep. Elijah Cummings had this to say about it:

‘Today is a Sad Day for America’
Rep. Cummings expresses disappointment in FISA vote
Washington, DC— Today, Congressman Elijah E. Cummings (D-Md.) released the following statement in response to today’s vote in the House of Representatives to adopt H.R. 6304, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008:
“Today is a very sad day for the people of America, as their government has decided to further infringe upon the protections afforded to us by the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Our Founding Fathers recognized our right to privacy as being so critical that they had the foresight to make it an Amendment in one of our most revered and fundamental documents—the very foundation of our nation’s democracy.
“My colleagues and I were elected to the U.S. Congress to represent the will of the people and to protect U.S. citizens from threats both foreign and domestic. I am disappointed in the compromises that were made in this legislation, because when it comes to our civil liberties, there should never be any compromise. I will relentlessly fight to ensure that surveillance becomes as transparent as possible to provide the oversight needed to prevent its abuse against U.S. citizens.”
###
Having 45,000 “books” on hand is of no consequence at all, if you dont know which ones to trust, if things can be “maelwared”, etc. There is all kinds of crap on the internet.

I havent been on for years, and , since I’ve been back on, I am amazed at the falsehoods and half-truths I read.

Of course the GOP used racism—it was all they had. But, with 95% of Af Ams voting for Obama , it was also an asset.The election just does not bear out that most of the uS is stil a “racist” nation—at least not more so where Af Ams are concerned, as opposed to other minority groups.

i dont think i am missing your point. I think we disagree..

You misunderstand my point and I won’t try to make it again.  On the point of history, I do think times have changed and increasingly we are now in a world where history will be written by the best available information.  It used to be students took textbooks for as being the truth when it comes to information.  But now we live in a world where anyone that can interface with the Internet or other similar computer technologies can check on things in the extreme. My cell phone has 45,000 plus books on it and an encyclopedia plus full net access.  And it will just get ever more so as time goes on. No one will be able to hide from history.  The dark will no longer be, no longer will there be a place for lies to hide but for the most private affairs.

My perceptions of what have happened are in the comment I left just before this so I won’t repeat them but I don’t think this signing was before anything really.  He the Republicons were full tilt on the issue of trashing Obama from day one, using indirect racism albeit I believe it was direct.  And stating that his 16 months or less out of Iraq was dangerous among other things.

I guess the Republicons don’t realize how much of a party the Iraqis will have after we leave.  It will be incumbent upon Obama to completely turn around our image in Iraq before we leave so we pull out of the country as friends.  So we end the nightmare of the Republicons and Bush and end apologize for what we’ve done.  Not only were war crimes committed but the entire effort from invasion to occupation was a crime.  We were the terrorists many millions of times over.  We committed genocide by killing millions of Iraqis, some would say.  But no I don’t think it can be assumed that Obama supports this, not quite yet.

Muscleboy-“History will be written by people with intelligence enough to discern what really happened.”

Wow. Since when? I wonder what Native Americans (of the entire continent) would say about that.I was always pretty sure that history was written by the victors, good or bad.

“But trust me I don’t think he would do so with reference to many of the individual people that make up our country and I don’t think Reverend Wright was doing so either.”

I think he meant that he is ...a politician..what would you think he is?

” My point is that Obama may have signed the bill to counteract the image of him being so good a man.”

I’m sorry..,.I just dont get that one at all…when he signed the FISA Amendments, no one was calling him a “Socialist”, then. Let alone a Communist. Besides, with the state of capitailsm, I could get beind him if he was!

This is Obama on Wright, from 2005:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

“Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context. ...”. You can read the rest and decide for yourself…he summarily condemns everything Wright says,. Maybe he had to, to win. That makes him a politician.

I was with the Obama-please-vote-no-on-FISA-group for awhile, on his website.This was from the night before the Dems voted FISA Amend in, For George W. Bush..(Larry Johnson and others from FireDogLake.com)

“One last act before the curtain: will our presumptive Presidential nominee stand for us or lie prostrate before the heel of the tyrants Cheney and Bush? Which Democratic patriots among the cowering 100 will rail against this pulverizing of the, “flag for which it stands for” into nanodust suitable for sweeping under the rug or mounting on a lapel pin? Mark their names fellow Americans; those few who brave the siren call of the incumbency circus. For these are the last representatives left in D.C., from the proud liberal ideal, the New Deal, the Great Society and the Democratic Party…”

“...Do not accept the specious narration being offered by Democratic Party leaders, electeds or consultants that the dying light of our Republic and our Party is actually a bright new flame of change. Resist the woeful songs of the gradualists and incrementalists, who claim they are on our side but we will have to wait. Remember July 10, 2008….  And that is the reason for the Progressive Swarm to renew its commitment to our cause - Stand up for your rights. Show up and demand change in the Democratic Party. Speak up whenever and wherever possible and never let anyone shut you up!

It was just too much… Others, that i have “run into” here were “there”, also (online) I also did some “work” with netroots,.org, which was so blatently ignored, they pretty much dropped the entire thing. It is not that I did not try. I know alot of people on here, think I just formed an opinion without checking it out. I did not. I wanted to vote happily for the first Af Am president.Hell, I voted for Jesse Jackson—I probably wouldve done so again! I wanted to vote for a progressive. I didnt get one out of the Democrats.

We got a Conservative. Check out neo-conservative sites and stationhs . They are crowing. And, once again, it is at the expense of “progresives”. The “far Left”. The “wingnuts” who wanted to STOP the “war on a concept” , and universal health care and, some help for the masses. Who wanted REAL “change”. Those whom the Dems assume have no where else to go.

Lets show them differently

There is hope yet

To KDelphi and others.  I do think if Obama turns around on his promises during the election he will be a fraud and very lucky to go out from office with number higher than George Bush’s. You can call it fraud or massive deception. He certainly will have no hope of going on for a second term, or very little hope and with history’s review he will be lumped together with GW Bush as the great criminals who engineered the destruction or near destruction of the USA.

History will be written by people with intelligence enough to discern what really happened.  You can fool so many people today partly because of our poor education in science and so many people without an education.  And even though at least half of the people now think Bush and his criminal pals did 9/11 it’s as if no one does if you watch the mass media news.  All Bush had to do was pay off a few hundred scientists to keep their mouths shut and purportedly kill others to hide the truth of 9/11 and still today they have not been executed by firing squad.  Yet you cannot get around the fundamental events that happened on 9/11.  The video recordings alone are sufficient enough to determine what happened. 

If President Obama fails to shine the light on truth and make very real massive changes his true nature will be known, not just in the present day but in decades and centuries to come.  He may get a few more gold coins for his treasure box but the cost of doing so will outweigh all the treasure in the world.

I can see a point in Obama signing the FISA bill as it was.  What is the point for him to do so?  Well he has a history of fighting for Americans and attending church with a pastor that seemed very upset with the current state of our country. By the way I find it hard to believe that Jesus himself would not scream about the same things even if he only knew a small bit of what was going on in America. “God Damn America!,” might be a mild version of what Jesus might say.  But trust me I don’t think he would do so with reference to many of the individual people that make up our country and I don’t think Reverend Wright was doing so either. In fact what probably made the good reverend so very angry was all the innocent decent millions of people that are being harmed by the wicked criminals hijacking our country. My point is that Obama may have signed the bill to counteract the image of him being so good a man.  Counteract that he is a threat to the criminals that be in our country.  Make these bunch of mass murdering thieves feel at ease with him and further those in the flag waving chorus of citizenry that they to would consider him less of a “communist-terrorist” if you will.

I am just hoping that this is what is actually going on. If Obama is a fraud after all and I am proved wrong, he will not be able to live it down.  Americans are at the point of bursting over what is going on.  Their lying thieving government of smiley faced well dressed criminals will have put one straw too many on the pile.

Folktruther—I would not disagree. But, honestly how many people that blindly supported him,do you think, took those “signals” as promises? I think many did.

Yes, I guess that makes him a fraud…lol. I was trying to win a convert—-the ole “psychology” you know. Muscleboy seems amenable to reason, I was poorly plying my trade , once more.

I guess I was trying to impress upon someone who seems to “really like the guy” (sure, he’s “likeable enough”—LOL! Back at ‘ya Obama!)that, in fact, while Obama is very impressive, and, a very GOOD politcian, he is another politician. I think alot of people thought that he was not.

BUT, one part of it that rarely fails me is my sincerity “meter”—-I can sniff out the opposite miles away! I grew up having to do it for one thing.

But, sometimes I have trouble placing exactly why I feel so “uncomfortable”—-of course, same reason I cant give myself therapy. But, if I listen very closely, watch body language, and, sometimes, the response of the crowd—-I usually spy “BULLSHIT!”

And, although, most Dems will not admit it—so far (and to say that a transition team is NOT an indication of future behavior is absurd—“I think I’ll appoint a bunch of people who will want to implement policies I dont approve of!”)—despite the run-on sentence—

so far, its bullshit.

JFK"Liberal”??—I would agree with some of what you say, however, acting “singularly”, at least with the govt having a huge merceanary army at its disposal, would seem to be suicidal. If we CANNOT act as a group, dynamically, then, I fear that it is uselses. That is why it is important to resist now.

“Bay of Pigs/Ghandi”—interesting juxtaposition.

JFK and Ghandi?? Sorry, friend, but youve got to be kidding me…if Ghandi had marched in the streets of DC,in the days of JFK, he would have probably been fired upon by JFK’s military, just as the British fired on him. JFK was nobody’s liberal. He may have been a neo-libreral (tax cutting, war mongering)—but the term was not in the vernacular at the time. Not much better, nor much worse than any other conservative Democrat.

Now, RFK—that wouod have been another story, I think. But, people putting JFK in with RFK and MLK, is, I believe, a mistake.

KDelphi, Obama SIGNALED to the American people that he would get out of Iraq to end the war, change the Bushite apporach to the economy, support the population’s issues rather than the rich and powerful, etc.

Obamanites now say: well you didn’t read the fine print. He stated quite explicitly, etc.  This is quite true and is part of the institutional fraudulence of elections: you have to give the appearance that you are going to do things that you are going to do the exact opposite of.  Obama is part of this institutionalized fraud.

Especially as he so quickly and massively sold out his progressive campaign promises.  What he signaled was Change You Can Believe In.  What is giving us is Bushite policies more intellegently managed.  This is a form of fraud on the American people.

KDelphi,

n the meantime, hoping that the people in DC will do the right thing, without consequences if they do not,is pretty futile, in my mind….

_____________________________

Most forms of modern day organizing for change are meaningless.; that is why i stopped years ago, at political work.

With all the new fad of identity politics; the meaning of having your own point of view is drowned out—by needs of the group.

Thus the group forgets it is made of of individuals—that make up the group.

It can work on a short terms basis only… for those that seek a quick resolution of the problem…marching in the millions down some DC street—then some god like figure will save them is just an illusion.

To start up a new movement like in the sixties, would require; a Gandhi like leader, or leaders; but that will not happen.

So, it is best to not even belong to group movements.

However, there are plenty of way to agitate; that are not group oriented towards numbers, or great ideals.

In fact, Ii was thinking of this last night; some of the greatest liberals; in history started out not as liberals at all or even trying to seek millions of people to march down the street, to get the powers that be to change.

But traditionally, they started out and continued to be very unpopular…with the exceptions of a few great liberals such as JFK or Gandhi.

Muscleboy—Yes, PE Obama (as with all presidents), is given sufficient power (excessive, I would say!) to change many things. Capabiity is not the question. It does not necessarily mean he is a “fraud”. Well, didnt Rev. Wright say it, although he was mostly shunned for it? “Obama is a politician”. Now, that sounded like a grave insult—-but that is how people rise through the ranks here..

I submit that is it not only getting hard to tell the forsest for the tress, but, also the “desparate band of criminals”, from our supposedly elected “representatives”. A Constitutioanl Convention is what we need. A change to a more parliamentary system (proportional representation)) makes much more sense, with a Prime Minister ( or, even better,  a Council as you said!) who answers to the people. The US Constitution puts way too much emphasis on the Pres., and it has developed into something of a cult. This “running for commander in chief” stuff, seems to be a silly way to elect a popular, civilian president.

Power gives up nothing—-we have to take it. That doesnt necessarily mean violence.

One reason Obama is NOT “fraud”, is that, in all honesty, he never said he would “end the war in Iraq” (in those words) , nor, “provide universal health care”—he spoke of private insurance being “more affordable”. He spoke of “getting out of Iraq more intelligently than we went in” (well, that wouldnt be hard to do!). It seems to me, it may be code for staying in. Jeremy Scahill, sho wrote “Blackwater”, and is a wonderful investigative reporter, put it like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/this-old-news-just-in-oba_b_148690.html

A continuance of the"war on terror”, is very hard to justify. What does Obama mean by it? The same thing Bush did? Who are the “terrorists”? Who gets to decide?

I am absolutely certain, although many deny it now, that alot of people thought that they heard something much different, when they heard him say those things. Maybe I am a cynic, but I listened very closely.

PE Obama did not need “advice” on things like FISA—he is a constitutional attorney. He knows the law. He said, originally, that he would vote against it. If the money did not change his mind, something did.He promised Feingold (who was on Moyers tonight) he woudl stick with public funding of his campaign.Now, we know why he decided against it, but why is it ok? Feingold said that he was “disappointed” that Obama did not keep his promise. He “has faith he will follow up on it, even if it is to his dis-advantage”. Even if PE Obama intends to do that, I just cannot see the Democratic Party going along with that. They are “
finally” the party of big money”..and that has been the “problem all along”, right? I submit that money is the problem—not the solution.

In the meantime, hoping that the people in DC will do the right thing, without consequences if they do not,is pretty futile, in my mind. They generally KNOW what the people want—they certainly get enough emails, phone calls, protests (they throw them out or arrest them—at both Conventions—I know that the GOP was “worse”, but , if we keep going back to that, what incentive is there for the “liberals” to improve?)We need a new system of government. There is ample evidence that this one is broken. I dont think we should wait. I am afraid “waiting” will lead to “waiting for the second term”, or “waiting until they get a majority”, and then, “waiting until they get a fillibuster proof majority”...ad nausem

Your view, Muscleboy, that America is a great nation temporarily derailed by political criminals is a common American delusion.  It is a reluctance to face that there is nothing temporary about the US decadence. It’s power system is increasingly oppressive, corrupt and obsolete. 

It cannot be changed because it can only be done by the people in power, and they would lose power by doing it. It is a very old power system in a young contry.  It is necessary to change the power system not substitute one power person for another within the same system.

Muscleboy;

When politicians stray to far away from the power base that paid, for their position, or radically appose the powerful military industrial complex or both they tend to have their tenure cut short. After which the good honest people of the congress hold hearings and investigations that proliferate what ever lie seems to fit at the moment.

This congress or most of its membership had a chance to do the “right” things many times and yet they are still involved in acts of economic and political terrorism around the world and at home. Even as a majority of citizens voiced their outrage at the robbery of the U.S. treasury they feigned indignation but all fell in line. I do not believe these people are criminally stupid, just criminals.

Free market capitalism needs brutal force to insure its success, whether it is economic or military, this is how we lose our basic human rights and how the powerful control the weak.

Retooling the Ship

These polices are not “conservative” that is part of the marketing deception, they are criminal.  Again, my point still stands, Obama owes nothing to the people who helped him with his election campaign. He is now president and laden with sufficient powers to act on his beliefs as advertised with no compulsion to divert from them.

The USA is not at the end of it’s life it is simply hijacked by criminal degenerates.  We are fundamentally a great country and what detracts from our greatness is this disparate band of criminals. These people are no different than people who choose to rob a 7/11, or in this case shoot up and rob a 7/11. 

We have had honest people in the Congress and varying degrees of honesty in the White House.  It is possible but I believe difficult due to the 2 party system and other things like “winner takes all” to decriminalize our government.  But with small changes like felonizing private funding of elections and possibly destroying the party system of election or at least the 2 party system. I think if anything the USA is in need of a major house cleaning and re-tooling.  We need a constitutional summit of some sort that makes for fundamental and arguably simple changes to our Constitution. ( An executive council rather than a one man presidency;Elimination of the electoral college: everyone keeps the votes they win. A process for removing rapidly a president that betrays the nation; felonizing private funding of elections…)  Whether we wait until things get real bad and we fall into some sort of civil war or de facto civil war just depends on events.  But I do know one of the factors is knowledge and unlike previous presidents Obama is faced with an increasingly knowledgeable citizenry who despite things like racism and fear mongering put him in office.  But this break away from being easily controlled sheep will possibly ultimately save our nation and possibly allow us to avoid a retooling phase that will be overly traumatizing.

We desperately need to pin these trash governmental hijackers to the wall like the dogs that they are.  This elitist crap where you have to treat Bushites with some respect has to stop.  These people serve us, they must treat us with great respect and that absolutely includes keeping their words and not playing games.

Maybe Obama’s just getting rotten advice from the unusually large number of crooks in Congress and that includes Democrats?  I don’t know.  We’ll see. But the USA is just at the beginning of a great new century of joy and great accomplishments if we can get our nation under our control.  If Obama is a fraud we’ll do what needs being done.  The USA is a great nation because of it’s people not the crooks hijacking it.

Yeah! What Folktruther said! lol..

Muscleboy—If you are feeling conflicted or, a little cognitive dissonance—you are not alone!

You can find out about how much money each candidate, has accepted in donations, (not necessarily lobbyists). maplight.org has some stuff, too.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cid=N00009638

Obama’s donors:

University of California $909,283
Goldman Sachs $874,207
Harvard University $717,230
Microsoft Corp $714,108
Google Inc $701,099
JPMorgan Chase & Co $581,460
Citigroup Inc $581,216
National Amusements Inc $543,859
Time Warner $508,148
Sidley Austin LLP $492,445
Stanford University $481,199
Skadden, Arps et al $473,424
Wilmerhale Llp $466,679
UBS AG $454,795
Latham & Watkins $426,924
Columbia University $426,516
Morgan Stanley $425,102
IBM Corp $415,196
University of Chicago $414,555
US Government $400,819

Barack Obama (D)
Senator from Illinois
Obama’s victory in the general election was aided by his tremendous fundraising success. Since the start of 2007, his campaign relied on bigger donors and smaller donors nearly equally, pulling in successive donations mostly over the Internet. After becoming his party’s nominee, Obama declined public financing and the spending limits that came with it, making him the first major-party candidate since the system was created to reject taxpayers’ money for the general election.

PLEASE, understand me, this does not make him a “bad man”. It just makes him a part of the system, that, I think, most people are ready to change. But..maybe not. These contributions will influence his team, if not him, (and I do think he has to be very ambitious , to be where he is! You just cant, the way the system is set up, not be ambitious and make it big in US politics)), and, you can bet, that they are probably already thinking about 2012.

I am not being cynical.

Just look at athe ATT FISA vote.
ATT contributions..

2008 Dems: $4,042,660 GOP: $1,931,809 Total to Congress:$2,105,895 48% 52%

Communic/Electronics
Obama, Barack $21,600,186
Clinton, Hillary $7,665,417
McCain, John $4,308,349
Romney, Mitt $1,606,312
Giuliani, Rudy $1,510,125
Paul, Ron $1,155,251
Edwards, John   $1,113,791
Richardson, Bill   $840,668
Dodd, Chris $456,965
Thompson, Fred $441,138
Huckabee, Mike $374,679
Biden, Joe $295,842
Kucinich, Dennis $157,488
Brownback, Sam $124,992
Nader, Ralph $94,106
Vilsack, Tom $49,950
Thompson, Tommy $46,849
Hunter, Duncan $42,100
Barr, Bob $28,006
Tancredo, Tom $25,255
Gravel, Mike $22,300
Gilmore, Jim $11,700
McKinney, Cynthia $8,772
Keyes, Alan $5,065
Baldwin, Chuck $500

Health
Obama, Barack $16,284,368

Sorry to say that power corrupts, and , absolute power corrupts absolutely..unless youre a “saint”..nope, dont see any..

The US electorate has to stop waiting for the “next four years”. These people just do not have enough incentive to really change. The time to let them know that we are sick of the duopoly, is NOW. Otherwise, Dems wil be screaming, “Oh, here come the Nader/MckKinney/Socialists again, and for four year they did nothing!”

It is not Obama,. specifically,I think it may be just that he promised/alluded to “change”, “hope”, and because people seem to be so blindly devoted. I have to admit, after 8 yrs of Bush, I realy did hope the Dems would FINALLY pick a progsersive—a real one. If they didnt then, they never will.

BYW—Although Obama is the greatest Fundraiser in Chief in world history, other candidates followed similarly. Strangely enough, it makes the Dems the “party of money”! I am not certain at all what that will mean. I suppose we shall have to see. But, conflicted is certainly one way to feel abou it!

Muscleboy, as a NYTimes article states, 80% of Obama’s campaign contributions came from big donors, people who gave more than a thousand dollars.  They do not invest tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars without expecting a return.  That is how they got rich to begin with. 

Obama’s apointments indicate that now Obama promoting conservative policies that they approve of.  This Elite consensus of the rich is far to the right of the population consensus. What Obama stated to get elected by the population diverges from what he must do to satisfy his rich backers.

This has always been the case in the political parties, including the Dem party.  Wilson campaigned against entering WW1 in 1916 because the population was against it.  After he was elected he declared a draft and went to war.

Roosevelt in 1940 campaign against entering “foreign wars” and manipulated a Japanese attack to provoke an anti-war population.

Truman initiated a peace time draft and entered the Korean war.  Johnson campaigning against Goldwater’s warmongering, and after he was elected escalated the Vietnam war.

Obama campaigned against the Iraqi war.  Then appointed Gates and other warmongers to continue it and expand the Afghan war. This is the American way, but not what one learns in schoolbook history or in the mass media. Class-based capitalism cannot function without systematic deceit.  And has a historical tendency to war, despotism and oppression.

This is all worse now because the US power system is so corrupt, oppressive and obsolete, being near the end of its lifetime.  It’s economic and ideological collaps will inevitbly be followed historically by its politial collapse.  As has occurred historical with all imperialisms.  The American people must get prepared for this collapse.

And start by opposing the Bushite policies of Obama.  Now.  Right now.

Mr. President with poor people choosing skills or Mr. Fraud

Well I go by his actions after the election was concluded rather than his actions before where he might have said this or done that but for the good cause of faithfully serving us once he’s elected.  He did say he was not accepting large sums of money from special interests of any kind, that his money came largely from very small donations from individual Americans. 

However by his “economic team” he is showing us that he lied.  We should hold him to his promises during the election at every turn.  It is very much proper to shine the spotlight on his choices for high ranking cabinet positions.  So far it looks like we have a big problem in several of them.  It looks like he lied to us from start to finish.

The fact of the matter is he owes no one anything no matter how much money they gave his campaign.  The only people he owes are the people that trusted him enough to give him their vote.  If he is lying I will be very angry and disgusted.

To say his choices in department heads doesn’t matter is ridiculous.  They are probably the single biggest indicator of whether he is an honest and decent person or just another criminal seeking to hijack our government.

He made no attempt to let Americans who voted for him know that he was fully intent upon honoring his election promises by his cabinet choices, which in itself seems to be a betrayal.

I think betraying people in this way should be a major felony even punishable by death if I weren’t against the death penalty. We should develop a method of rapidly removing such people, I’ve always thought some variant of the parliamentary system might work better against such frauds. 

But you know if he continues to demonstrate his betrayal he will harm not just himself but the Democratic party which should see a solid 150 years of success after the horror that Bush and his Republican cohorts have perpetrated on the American people.  Yet the first thing Obama does is to populate some of the most vital areas of the executive branch of government with people tied in with the very same crooks.  It is nearly fair to call him at this point “Bush continued…”.

How stupid could he think the American people are?  He should be ashamed of himself if this is actually true. 

We cannot give up all hope yet.  Barack didn’t seem to be this horrific nightmarish criminal phony that seems to be materialising before us today.

But let’s not let a day go by where we don’t analyse his every move.  I’m eager to get back to supporting him and his stated efforts 100 percent.  Am I just kidding myself? I don’t know about everyone else but I can’t take this sort of thing anymore.

By SteveL, December 5 at 4:00 pm #

“Let’s give the man a chance.  Even I waited until
Bush invaded Iraq before deciding his administration was going to be a disaster.  Setting your hair on fire and running down the hall serves no real purpose…”

Well, that would seem like a very foolish thing to do—considering that, if we had had more people protesting and telling their “representatives” “no!”, we might not be in the fricking mess we are now!!

Muscleboy—I dont think that transperancy and regulation are going to do it when the Congress (including Obama ) took so much money from Wall St. Obama collected more from Goldman Sachs, etc. than any other candidate in the history of the country.
Larry Summers worked in the Hedge Fund Industry. He helped orchestrate the Bailout.

I’ve got links for this, if you want them…

Sorry…here is one organizations opinion of the Obama (and now Baucus) health INSURANCE plan. It leaves out at least 15 million. We need single payer—-like HR 676 by Reps.Conyers and Kucinich and others. Even PDA (Healthcare not Warfare) doesnt endorse his plan (tax and market based). In short, sorry, but, its crap..Obama was FOR single payer in Chicago. He accepted more from individual physicians than anyone in the Senate, and, only slightly less from the Am Hos Assoc. I’ve already posted the stats here—-if you want a link, lemme know. There are plenty more….

Physuicians for a Natl Health Care Plan.

“In the brief aftermath since Barack Obama’s election there is already intense political ferment around health reform, including Senate Committee hearings on an “employer-mandate” plan sponsored by Sen. Baucus (D-MT) and a similar proposal in the works by Sen. Kennedy based on the flawed Massachusetts law…..

... single payer option for reform (HR 676) is part of the debate.  In these times of economic crisis and uncertainty, single payer is the only effective, fiscally responsible option for reform.  It would save $400 billion on administrative costs and would provide both an economic stimulus and a much-needed “bailout” for “Main Street” in the form of true health security for all Americans.

In contrast, Baucus’ “mandate” model of reform, originally proposed by Nixon, is expensive and won’t work.  Its key elements have already been tried and failed in several states, as detailed in PNHP co-founder Dr. David Himmelstein’s new slide presentation (available to PNHP members here, the password is .

While then-Illinois state Senator Barack Obama was a proponent of single payer, presidential-candidate Obama advocated flawed, incremental reform. Our message to Obama, Kennedy, and Baucus is the same. The only effective, affordable remedy for the health care crisis is single payer national health insurance.

 
Quentin Young, MD
Volunteer National Coordinator Ida Hellander, MD
Executive Director
The lack of health coverage is responsible for at least 18,000 deaths annually, according to the Institute of Medicine. In August, the Census Bureau reported that 45.6 million Americans lacked health insurance in 2007.

A copy of the study is available at http://www.pnhp.org/organ_donors

Yet this option has been declared “off the table” by Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., who’s among those leading the charge for health care reform in America.

This is his lobbying money:

Total Campaign Contributions Received: $15,975,018
Top 10 Interests Funding
Interest - Contributions
Attorneys & law firms - $950,692
Security brokers & investment companies - $478,703
Lobbyists & Public Relations - $477,870
Insurance companies, brokers & agents - $397,435
Other physician specialists - $322,699
Commercial banks & bank holding companies - $320,157
Pharmaceutical manufacturing - $294,620
Life insurance - $281,900
Pro-Israel - $280,191
Hospitals - $256,097

Let’s give the man a chance.  Even I waited until
Bush invaded Iraq before deciding his administration was going to be a disaster.  Setting your hair on fire and running down the hall serves no real purpose.

Radical Change

I don’t like to use the currently acceptable meanings of words always, most especially when we are talking about politics and labeling people. By radical change I mean with respect to the system as it is.  I mean moving very sharply away from a system which has become basically a giant tin pot dictatorship with organized crime qualities. I do not mean move away from free market because we are increasingly not a free market but more of a tin pot dictatorship bribe the government market, really a fascist state.  Kickbacks and bribes abound with very little accountability.

I always have said a free market must be regulated if only to maintain it’s free and robustly competitive nature.  We should be very anti-trust in terms of policy.  We can be pro-environment and pro-business.  It’s called having ethics in public and private policy.  Instead of just putting on a fancy suit and smiling- acting like we are decent and ethical whilst behind the false front we engage in all manners of crimes and misdeeds including mass murdering people and blowing up our own buildings.

Radical to our current state can very much becoming what it seems to be on the surface—in reality.  Free market that is truly and ethically free in a very transparent way with the necessary regulations to protect our interconnecting interests as well as maintain it’s freeness and ethicalness.  It doesn’t mean we have to become communist or some other such definition of radical.  But it would be radical nonetheless.  It would be nice if we were are “Christian nation” in the sence of loving each other as if we are brothers and sisters rather then “Christian” for the purposes of hating and judging each other.  After all treating each other with love and kindness as we would want to be treated was the essential message of Jesus.

Regarding health care in it’s broadest sense it requires a high degree of things like transparency and regulation.  Health care is a service that we simply cannot live without.  We have to decide that either all of us are entitled to the same level of care and work to try to create a system to maximize it both technologically and systematically for us all or we don’t.  But with the radical changes Obama has proposed you can see they have characteristics of a single payer system perhaps with some from our current system. You have entities representing the giant hospital corporations and insurance and big pharma already to pounce on Obama and fight to maintain their criminal ways.  But we must not let them win and part of the change has to be cutting the costs of medical products and services to half of what they are or more and elimination of medical fraud by hospitals and doctors which is common today.

Many people today are getting what they falsely believe is good health care until one day they really need it and find out that the coverage is lacking in the extreme.  We have people dying because insurance companies are legally allowed to opt for keeping the $28,000 dollars, as an example, over letting them live.  They are allowed to literally profit off of death. 

The current system benefits only a very few in the oligopolistic health care, insurance and big pharmaceuticals world, at literally everyone else’s expense. 

What I’m trying to say here is we either end up with radical changes from the current systems of our society or we will fall as a nation to complete and utter end of life as we have known it.  We will go from up to a third of world commerce to a developing nation practically overnight. We are at that point where radical change is required merely to survive at all.

Muscleboy—Yes..I would agree with most of what you say. I understood at the time, why he was doing it. But, as you said, he might have actually won over MY vote , if he had been a little more “radical”. I even thought, “Bobby Rush, Jesse Jackson Jr.—certainly Cynthia McKinney!!”

I am sorry to be a pessimist, but , banking on Obama providing universal health care (he has proposed somethig far different), and “fixing” Iraq, may not be the best bet going…I would love to be pleasantly surprised. I do not think that it is too much to expect—I just dont think at Obama has any intention of fulfiling them. His cabinet appointments just wouldnt suggest it…

I also understand that Af Am churches are “something more than churches”—they always have been. So, you know, even being adamently for a thick wall of separation between churches and state—I would cut Af Am churches a break on it, because I just dont think it applies, particularly in poorer urban areas. They perform alot of functios that the govt should, but just refuses.

I am not being , like “oh, I’m an atheist—so that makes me, so de classe’”—actually , it makes me a minority in this country, and I wish to hell I could believe that , someday, all people would get what they deserve—-I just cant.

Right on Wright

Ok ok I think I got you: You are saying that Obama abandoned Wright during the convention improperly thus betraying his beliefs…. I don’t agree. Obama did not disrespect Wright but he was running for president in a very narrow range which made him do things like respond to the treasonous Zionist Dershowitz and prevent the distinguished and honorable President Jimmy Carter from speaking at the Democratic Convention, as he said because of his book on Palestine which if anything at all was very watered down compared to what the Israelis are actually doing to the Palestinians.  Dershowitz literally called the campaign and said if he allowed President Carter to speak he would lose the Jewish vote.  That was ridiculous because Dershowitz and the entire AIPAC zionist mobster ring in the USA worked day and night against the election of Barack Obama.  Still he did give in which was WRONG but he did so due to the tight race and the fact that Dershowitz surprised him with the threat in the middle of the convention.  He didn’t kick Reverend Wright to the side of the road either he just said basically quiet down we are in the middle of an election where the dark side is trying to use race and fear.  Honestly I think if Obama were more passionate in his speaking and even more radical in his plans he would have won by even larger of a margin but it’s hard to distill my opinion into this little space.  It would have required a complex but I think effective approach however I wasn’t running the Obama campaign and in the end they won anyway.  Whether he behind the scenes sold out by agreeing to have these Bushites in critical positions is another question.  If we don’t have federal worker health care for all Americans from the start and a clear turn around in our rules of engagement in Iraq that changes our enemies to our friends and makes life in Iraq heavenly under the remaining days of US occupation I will drop Obama like a sack of dirt.  I don’t think we can take half-way measures at this point, and I know it’s all doable 100 percent including getting off of oil.  I know it is possible with a major effort to get completely off of oil within a few years time and on to completely natural and clean alternatives.  Obama’s 15 billion a year for 10 years just to get us off of oil imported from the middle east is NOT ACCEPTABLE and really just complete BS.  He needs to shut down the defense industrial complex—create a new environmentally friendly super clean energy systems complex run by countless people and businesses not just a few super corps.

Jim Tell—“Obama has the appointments under control and has not turned away from the large core of voters that want to believe he will be a constructive leader, a reformer of the past lawless 8 years.” I am not trying to be confrontational, but, please think about this…“the large core of voters who WANT to believe he will…” The operative word is “want”...I dont think they only expected a “constructive leader”, either.(Honestly, did you ever think, “Wow.he would be constructive”) I think they expected/expect miracles. I think Obama let that happen, because , within the current power structure, it helped him win.

Muscleboy—Did you hear what I said? Please do not fall back on the “McCain is worse” crap—-EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS! That does not mean that Obama did not abandon some of his core pricnciples, held for many years, to get where he is. If you submit that he had to do it, and, that’s OK with you—fine. I was merely pointing out that my objection to Rev. Wright, was NOT ideological—mainly religious…dsepite how Wright said it—I submit that much of what he said was true! How could I have possibly conveyed that to you without mentioning what I disagreed with Wright about?? Religion…

I dont believe that Plain or McCain WANTED to use racism, either. Wait—maybe Palin did. McCain gave up his honor when he decided he would hug Dubya after he smeared his own daughter and two fellow vets, Kerry and Cleland. However,they may feel that they have to within the current power structure. Palin may be a racist—McCain, I submit, is NOT in the traditional sense of ther word. Unless you submit that his daughter, Bridget, is a token, used to make him look less racist—I honestly dont know the man well enough to know. But, since he didnt “trot her out” and say, stuff like “See! I have a black daughter! I cannot be a racist!”, I dont think so..

Af Ams are NOT the only repressed population in the uS. Islam, Socialism, people in poverty, gays that should be allowed to marry (why they want to…oh well..lol), the disabled, yes, even women (still)—-they were either castigated or ignored, by both parties. This is an institutional form of racism/sexism/ageism/etc. It is built into a capitalist system

Neo-liberals can often be worse than neo-cons. Neo-cons will usually tell you to your face, “I just dont care” (unless there is an election coming up). Neo-liberals, “feel your pain”—but never respond to it, so I must assume that they do not. Or, see above (I dont care, but I wont say so to your face)Neo-libs provide a comforting face, often led by people whom many of us have respected for many years. Hey, if HE thinks this is great….But, you have to stop and HEAR and SEE it for yourself. Most “liberals” would never vote for a neo-con—so they HAVE to choose the neo-liberal, right? Wel, so far…

It is like the story (I’ve heard it told many ways) of the woman who found a wounded snake. She took it in and nursed it back to health,. When it was getting ready to leave, it bit her. As she lay dying , she said, “How could you do this , after all I did for you!”. The snake replied, “Hey… you knew I was a snake!” Or the frog hitching the ride on the alligator. He gets eaten.

Symbolism that KBR/Halliburton has killed at least one soldier in Iraq, by serving them water with human bodily fluids in it, from not rinsing out the ice truck after hauling dead bodies in it? I dont know. Symbolic “Titus-ism”?

Clash, In the US, and I assume the othr countries of the world, people are afraid to tell the simple reality-baed truth about people and power.  It conflicts with the Elite truth consensus that the power structure imposes on the population in the learned and mass media.  A major ideological purpose of the mass media and the schools, universities and other learned bureaucracies is to make people afraid to think illegitimate thoughts.

So the first thing that must be done is subvert the restictions on truth of the power sstruture consensus, and formulate these truths from the perspetive of the population.  This would create a sharper conflict between the population truth consensus and the power structure consensus, which always occurs historically during the end time of political regimes.

But this requires a form of organization, since, as you say, the American population is spied on systematiclly by the American power system.  And we can expect such a population consensus to be dirupted, coopted, and provked in the ususal way by police spies and intellience agents. 

The question then becomes: how can a population truth consensus be formed that served the power interests of the population rther than that of the power struture?  Such a widely accepted truth consensus is necessary to mobilize the population, and so will be opposed by the power structure. 

The most effective opposition is by fake Progressives themselves: Zionists, Obamanites, Dem apoligists, neo-liberals, etc.  Possibly,therefore, it mught be useful to begin by a simple analysis of these ideological tendencies.  Or a muore useful apporach might be deeloped.

But what it is necessary to understand is that we do not know precisely what we want to do, or even vaguely.  This is a time for thinking and discourse, while exemplary actions reinforce them. to dispell the fear of telling the simple truth about oppressive power.  And this itself will be diffiucult enough to organize in the face of the American postmodern police state.

NO OBAMA DID NOT USE RASCISM. McCain did by calling Obama a terrorist; sending campaign flyers out where the first page said TERRORIST in bold letters underneath of it being a picture of Obama.  This not only took to stirring up racism much like AIPAC and the neocons did to stir hate of Arabs that had been directed at blacks.  This constant message in many different forms by McCain’s team threatened the life of Obama and his team.

I don’t care if you believe in God or not. Atheists seem to think they constantly have to repeat that. Reverend Wright is a man of Jesus. He is not a politician and I think any man of the Lord is not doing his job if he tries to walk on eggshells and act like everything is just fine. You could argue he went a bit far but that’s his right and again it’s his job. Other priests and pastors don’t go far enough in my opinion.

Sepharad—I would certainly back “nationalizing all energy industries”—but what in the world makes you think that Obama would go for that? He has already backed off of the “windfall profits tax” for Big Oil, backs Clean Coal (doesnt exist—which I already knew, having lived in a coal heated hosue for awhile) and offshore driling..

It might be the only way we could afford to save manufacturing jobs. Even better, hand the automobile industry over to the workers. Get rid of criminal CEOs and criminal Union Bosses.

Can you honestly imagine the Dems—even with the executive, and both legislative branches—doing any of this? If you can, please let me know where you read about any hope of such things at all…honestly.

Muscleboy—Honestly, as far as racism goes, didnt Obam do the same thign, by declaring Islam, Socialism (class warfare) and Rev. Wright “off limits”? I think almost all preachers are ful of it—I didnt agree with Rev. Wright , but he did make some necessary points, if in a “religious ” manner (I just dont believe in religion)

Arius—I gotta admit—the “his brain is big, his style is fresh”, sounded like crap to me, too. I half expected a video of Obama , dressed in Versace’, walking a catwalk, to appear as a pop-up!

Folktruther;

The S.L.A was a political arm of the progressive movement in the in the late 1960’s their politics were met with the special diplomacy of the Los Angeles Gestapo. This is the type of politics we can expect from the power elite, so you are correct that organizing is required the question is how do we do this when every form of communication is monitored.

The political solution we are looking for is not is not historically feasible at this time, many more people will need to believe that it is the elite that proposes our demise. As recourses dwindle their solution to this will be to reduce the burden, us.

Not only are they prepared with the police state they have constructed, the fact that the us Army is serving active duty in country for the first time in our history without even a whimper from the population substantiates this point. The recent ratcheting up of the war of fear can also be seen in the threat of nuclear and or biological threats made just this weak.

As long as the citizen’s of this country allow the PATRIOT act to be the politics of the state there will be no CHANGE.

wind; 
Your list of loser’s leaves out the most important fact Humphrey was on the list only because the winner was shot in the back of the head.

Ramsey Clark, attorney general in the Johnson administration, has written about how the need to conrol the civilian population of Vietnam through terrorist tactics was openly discussed in cabinet meetings during the Vietnam war.  I can only imagine that things have gotten worse, yet it cannot be talked about.  When I wrote that cluster bombs were essentially for use against civilian populations, the article on cluster bombs was removed from the front page here. 
For the last forty years or more the US has been fighting wars against the poorest countries in the world.  Naturally there is resistence from the civilian populations who can be forced into submission only through terrorist acts.  So when Obama talks about expanding the war in Afganistan, he is talking about war on the civilian population; he is talking about terrorism and the Obamaphiles here need to face the fact.

Shepharad, did you know that if we simply legalized and promoted the farming of the hemp plant we could be off oil within a couple years.  Hemp can produce not just gasoline for our cars in great abundance that burns super-clean, but also hemp can produce plastic for our products and even super lubricants all super environmentally friendly even on poor farm land.  Hemp can be used to build super strong houses instead of chopping down forests and clothing that last for ever and ever. The US Constitution was written on hemp paper hemp was used for everything until it was outlawed under the phony drug laws whose real purpose was to protect the big forestry products and other industries that hemp competed with, again a case of our system failing do to allowing bribes of our politicians—it’s insane really. 

Industrial hemp is so low in the substance that gets you high it’s of no use as a drug.  They still block it from legal growth in the USA and the USA pressures other countries not to grow also.  Hemp is a miracle plant all the things it can do it also can produce five crop rotations per year(depending upon growing season length) and actually enriches the soil the more you grow unlike other crops.

Hemp is just one of many ways we could go off oil in a few years or less. We could also produce all the hydrogen we need for cars with nighttime electrical power; organisms that produce hydrogen from water naturally could produce all the energy the USA needs from man-made ponds in New Mexico; by the running of a vehicles engine—one Japanese company has been able to produce a two passenger plus cargo vehicle that runs literally on water alone.  The vehicle produces all the hydrogen it needs from water as it runs.  Super torches that run only on water as water is just hydrogen and oxygen in just the right blend for burning, this is a scientific fact.

There are many ways we could be off oil, nuclear and all the other dangerous energy sources but for one roadblock crooked politicians that take money from the crooks in big oil to slow or stop entirely competitive technologies.  You were talking about Israel—well in Israel they have a stated policy to go off of oil by converting the entire country to electric vehicles which is another way we could go.  By plugging the vehicles in overnight to charge you have a net and very radical decrease in energy consumption enough to go off of imported oil(including Canadian and Mexican).  You see most of that energy drawn during the nighttime hours is lost otherwise, add to that the fact that the vehicle no longer consumes gas and you can see it’s a great way to go.

We have a criminal mobster government run by people in nice suits with smiles that do nothing but lie to us every day so they can steal as much money from us as possible while we just stand back and wave flags.  That’s the problem and it’s the only problem we have.

While President elect Obama did run a campaign based upon a message of change, I think that maybe we should at least allow him to take the oath of office first.  While I am not jumping overjoyed at all of his picks nor the people he surrounds himself with, I am willing to at least allow the man to move into 1600 Pennsylvania first.

Besides, no matter what people he picks, ultimately, the decisions will be his.  And as this nations voters gave the current Administrator-without-a-clue 8 years (with excessive proof of his incompetence), and is still giving him a break, we need to hold off and give the man a chance.

re:By Irene Diaz, December 4 at 1:53 pm:

Irene, “Stay the course” is not incorrect English; it’s just a bit old-fashioned and stilted.

Its sense has also changed over time. In its oldest sense it meant to stop or interfere with the progress (of something).

But certainly by the late 19th century the phrase was being used by competent English-speaking writers to mean “Stay on course”, especially in the face of adversity or fatigue. Winston Churchill, no less, used “Stay the course” in that sense, long before Bush. See the Wikipedia article, which is supported by plenty of references and external links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stay_the_course