I would LOVE to think that you would all keep the separation of church and state, and, that everyone would STOP trying to “prove” anything about god, or a lack of one, because it cannot be proven nor disproven. Why dont you just behave the way your religion tells you to and, if there is a “god” you’ll be ok?

If there were some kind of “god” who judged you more on the culture you were brought up in,(c’mon! THAT is what your “religon” is based on! Or did your just happen to “pick up your particular book” one day, and decided to “believe it above all others”) than your actions, as Holden Caulfield said, “If there is a god, he’s a real shit”.

If there were one and he cared if I said that—why would he let me think it? Free will? Well, that’s crappy! Give us nothing more than what we’ve been taught, to judge what to believe, and, if we pick the wrong parents, burn forever!

I would love it if everyone just kept their religion between themselves and who they think that their “maker” is.

“Imagine there’s no country, it isnt hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too…”

Imagine…

I would LOVE to believe that Christian Dogma would NOT forced down Jews’ and Moslems’ throats (not to mention fellow Christians.)

Excuse the typo.  TD doesn’t have an edit function for posts.

Tony Wicher, December 14 at 4:09 pm #

My position continues to be that ethnic nationalisms such as Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism are incompatible with universal principles of democracy and human rights. By the same token, laws favoring one religion over another are likewise incompatible with these universal principles, whether the religion favored is Judiasm, Islam, Christianity or other…...
***************************************************

You know what, TW? I would LOVE it if Jew and Arab could live, work, cooperate and vote side by side. 

I would LOVE to believe that the 613 Commandments wouldn’t be forced down Moslems’ and Christians’ throats (not to mention fellow Jews). 

I would LOVE to believe that Sharia wouldn’t be forced down Jews’ and Christians’ throats (not to mention fellow Moslems).

I would LOVE to believe that Christian Dogma would forced down Jews’ and Moslems’ throats (not to mention fellow Christians.)

But I don’t. I was born, grew up, live, and expect to die in the USA, my home and everyday, here, in America, people are trying to force their vision of Christianity down my throat.  When I was a child, my parents’ tax dollars went to pay for our town’s Christmas decorations on every street lamp.  Every year, some Christian jingoist wanted to put a creche on the public high school lawn.  After all the church to the right of the school, to the left of the school and the third right in front of the school all had creches—but that wasn’t enough.

Today, here, in America, the only thing that’s changed is they are pushing harder to shove Christianity down our throats. 

In the UK and other European nations, extremist Moslems are demanding that they be allowed to live under Sharia, pushing to the point where Sharia supercedes state law. 

In Israel, if you drive through a Chasidic or ultra-orthodox neighborhood on a Saturday, you’ll be stoned.

People who have hated and feared each other for decades simply cannot be told: “Ok, put down your guns, move on in, and we’ll all live together.”

It’s simply naive and rolling the dice with other peoples’ lives. You have no right to do that, TW.

Look at how Europeans FINALLY can live and work together.  But they didn’t just shake hands and start.  The European Union didn’t spring out of nowhere.  Remember when they used to call it “the Common Market”?  Back then it was actually 3 communities: The European Coal and Steel Commission (the first), The European Atomic Energy Commission (EurAtom) and The European Economic Community (The EEC or Common Market).  But even they took decades to build and expand, decades of mistrust.

France blocked Britain’s entry until 1972, when the 6 (BeNeLux, Germany, Italy and France) went to 9 (UK, Ireland and Denmark).  In 1976, and early attempt at controlling currencies together “The Snake” fell because pressure on the Franc to devalue and the Mark to revalue was too great.  Even today Turkey is blocked from entry, though it qualifies on every ground other than part of the nation is in Asia.  Ireland blocked the EU Constitution, though NO nation has benefited more from membership. Ireland went from an economic slum to powerhouse—all due to EU membership.

Yet you expect Jews and Arabs to put aside 60 years of war without going through the progression of stages Europe has gone through. 

I just don’t get it, Tony. You KNOW it cannot work. You KNOW they must learn to live nation by nation, to learn to trust each other, to build economic ties.  Yet you just don’t want to see that.

Fordham Law?

Robert—Do you know Brian Glick of NYC, of “War at Home—Ciovert Action ...”?

Inherit The Wind, Robert, Fadel:

My position continues to be that ethnic nationalisms such as Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism are incompatible with universal principles of democracy and human rights. By the same token, laws favoring one religion over another are likewise incompatible with these universal principles, whether the religion favored is Judiasm, Islam, Christianity or other.  It is counterproductive and only leads to more war for both sides to continue blaming the other for deficiencies which both equally suffer. It must be understood by both sides that adopting these principles is absolutely essential to being a functioning country in the world today. This is the only solution to the conflict. The United States, where these principles are enshrined in our Consititution, must mediate fairly between these two undemocratic parties, rather than pretend, as we have have been doing, that Israel is democratic and the Arabs are not. This hypocrisy must end; otherwise there will be no justice and therefore no peace.

There goes ITW with his usual rants…anti-semitism, Holocaust denial crowd, lies and those common zionist attack methods….

BTW, Naeim Giladi is Jewish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BEN-GURION’S SCANDALS : HOW THE HAGANAH AND THE MOSSAD ELIMINATED JEWS
   

“Giladi wrote this book tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.”

Author: Naeim Giladi
Publisher: Dandelion Books, LLC
ISBN: 1-893302-40-7
Binding: Trade Paper
364 pages
Product ID: DAND00021

PRICE: $18.95

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/bookstore/product details.cfm?merchid=16

As usual, Robert digs up the garbage from the anti-semitic web sites to try to deny that the Arab nations expelled their Jews when Israel was formed.  It’s another Holocaust denial crowd trying to convince us the Holocaust didn’t happen. Now the forced exile from the Arab lands didn’t happen-it was Mossad and Irgun making war on Jews to save Jews….Usual Robert illogical lies that don’t even make sense.  They don’t even parse.  Like insisting the more you soak the kindling in the lake, the better the fire lights.  Doesn’t work that way.

See, Robert like all the others, is trying to develop a justification for the slaughter and forced exit of every Jew from Israel.  Then, when caught with his hand in the cookie jar (like now) he’ll say “no, no, summa mah bes’ frens are Jues!” 

I have no support for the settlers.  I don’t want them to prevent ending hostilities, so both can live in peace.

But Robert doesn’t want peace, certainly doesn’t want a negotiated peace—that would mean everything he believes is wrong.

Bad news, Bob. It is wrong.

THE JEWS OF IRAQ

by Naeim Giladi

Courtesy The Link, Volume 31, Issue 2, April-May 1998

The author, Naeim Giladi

“I write this article
for the same reason I wrote my book:
to tell the American people,
and especially American Jews,
that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews; and that,
to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions
rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.”
I write about it because I was part of it.

ABOUT THIS ARTICLE:

The Link interviewed Naeim Giladi, a Jew from Iraq, for three hours on March 16, 1998, two days prior to his 69th birthday. For nearly two other delightful hours, we were treated to a multi-course Arabic meal prepared by his wife Rachael, who is also Iraqi. “It’s our Arab culture,” he said proudly.

In our previous Link, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe looked at the hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians whose lives were uprooted to make room for foreigners who would come to populate confiscated land. Most were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe. But over half a million other Jews came from Islamic lands. Zionist propagandists claim that Israel “rescued” these Jews from their anti-Jewish, Muslim neighbors. One of those “rescued” Jews-Naeim Giladi-knows otherwise.

In his book, Ben Gurion’s Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn’t get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. “I am Iraqi,” he told us, “born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American.”

John F. Mahoney
Executive Director,
Americans for Middle East Understanding (AMEU)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs.”
~~~~~~~

For the rest of what Mr. Giladi wanted to tell Americans & American Jews…click on URL:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

Re Muscleboy, December 9 at 1:58 pm #

By the same token, militant Arab nationalism and Islamism must also be isolated and marginalized to make a real peace process possible. These are as incompatible with democracy and peace as militant Zionism, in the same way and for the same reasons. If the United States would treat them equally, negotiations could proceed. Israel is a “democracy” for Jews only.

Inherit The Wind and Tony:... Iraq had no civil war.  It was engineered by the US and British military run by the Bush-neocon psychopaths.  Entirely engineered.  The Muslims, if anything, are too damn peaceful considering what we did to them.  And the truly faithful Jews of Israel are also very peaceful.  With the right framework I could actually see your point, that a one state could work, but as part of this change of paradigm you would be eliminating Zionism.  I think most people would be in favor of this in Israel and Palestine if we could some how convey the true message of this.  And yes I would trust both sides to live in peace under the terms described by Tony.  But 2 state could work also. Either way we’d have to get rid of the very extremist Zionists for it to work.

Sepharad:Israel is something god must make not men.  Yes. But calling it Israel was rejected by all Rabbis at the time of modern Israel’s creation. They also say that Zionism is not Jewish but an evil group of people trying to trick the world for the purposes of power and greed.  Zionism itself is evil.

There is no valid reason, today, for the Jews to be of any concern unless they, themselves do horrible things, and I mean massively horrible.  Israeli practices, for example, are horrible things that are done as if they are legitimate, and all Jews everywhere support them, which is untrue in the extreme.  They have terrorized Palestine since their terroristic campaign against England to gain control of Palestine, in the 40’s.  Jews can enjoy very happy and worry free lives in the world of today where only actual truth will cause such a terrible uprising against Jews again.  Why is Jew hating a guaranteed disease anyway?  Do we have such a thing as Christian hating? Is it called something as if it’s a disease? No.  And I think that it is IMPOSSIBLE today because every Jew I have known is honest and dutiful to a fault. A good friend to have and someone that will give you the shirt off their back contrary to the popular image.  I often say, quite seriously, that many Jews are more “Christian” than many Christians.  Welcome home to a free world, we should say to them. 

But if a two state it must be, then it will only be with Jerusalem split into the Jewish quarter going to the Jews and half going to the state of Palestine and maybe the Christians getting the remainder for international purposes.  This city is not and really never has been a Jewish city wholly.  In fact in the beginning days of the Islamic religion it was the direction they prayed to.  Today, of course, Muslims pray facing Mecca. Jews were an immigrant community to Palestine, the Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites who have been the primary inhabitants of Palestine since the beginning of known history. There is so much in the Zionist religion or belief system that isn’t even supported by many Jews, it certainly isn’t supported by Christians or Muslims.  It should really be an international City, in the end.  It is completely unacceptable for the Zionists to call it their capitol, yet they have, and should not. 

I see you are trying to seek some interesting balance between justifying Zionism and ending the extremist Zionists positions to an extent.  You won’t get their, not if peace is your goal. You must end all extremist Zionist requirements and be happy with this, it will lead to long term peace with the proper and consistent efforts made at injecting love into the process consistently.

We will have terrorists on the Zionist side and terrorists on the Arab side but I think at the end of the day they can be made to understand what life is all about and feel the joy of peace in their hearts. Nothing less than what I said will succeed.

I have liked to think of the Zionists and the Palestinians as having a shared “rejected status” although I don’t think this is really real.  I don’t think they are patients on a table but brothers by force of shared struggle. Of course I don’t think anyone truly rejects Jews or Palestinians as you will see when your tourism soars following this two state establishment.  But remember both states must be complete in all regards with full features of a state and dignity.  I think the USA and other countries should order the security not Israel over Palestine as it has been.  We must build an solid system that rejects escalation of a smaller event into fully armed conflict or invasion.  That too must be part of the system of agreement.  Terrorism requires police and judicial action not military.

ITW,

On the contrary, I believe that once the goal of a single democratic state is accepted, it will be up to the Israeli side to negotiate a constitution together with the Palestinians that will have iron-clad protections of equality, non-discrimination, religious freedom and civil liberties such as we have in our own constitution, but even better. I believe Israelis are smart enough and tough enough to accomplish this. I am talking about such things as full integration of the army, police and courts It should not matter whether in the end Jews are 40 percent of the population or 60 percent. I also believe this transformation would be facilitated by the strong support of the entire international community.

You continually assume that there won’t be immediate civil war.  Who is going to guarantee that? Didn’t you learn ANYTHING from Iraq???  It will be much, much worse.  And the extremists on both sides will be doing EVERYTHING possible to cause such a civil war.

Again, Tony, you are happy to roll the dice with other peoples’ lives.  You really don’t know what will happen—-you are just guessing.  Bush guessed. Look what happened.

Re Inherit The Wind, December 9 at 9:17 am #

Muscleboy: I’ve had this discussion with TW many, many times.  You want to just roll the dice with the lives of 5 million Israeli Jews at stake and HOPE the Palestinians don’t take it as a license to slaughter them.  It’s easy to risk someone else’s life on a gamble, isn’t it?  Just ask George W. Bush.

Our own Constitution was written by men who ASSUMED that scoundrels and scalawags would be in government and set up a system to counter-act them.  Yet you would believe there are no such scoundrels amongst the Palestinians and would set up a system that was totally vulnerable to them.
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— —
ITW,

On the contrary, I believe that once the goal of a single democratic state is accepted, it will be up to the Israeli side to negotiate a constitution together with the Palestinians that will have iron-clad protections of equality, non-discrimination, religious freedom and civil liberties such as we have in our own constitution, but even better. I believe Israelis are smart enough and tough enough to accomplish this. I am talking about such things as full integration of the army, police and courts It should not matter whether in the end Jews are 40 percent of the population or 60 percent. I also believe this transformation would be facilitated by the strong support of the entire international community.

Re Muscleboy

The reality is very simple.  We are all basically the same beings, interconnected through God or whatever you believe is the force of life.  There is no point in anything if it does not enrich and empower everyone in a mutually loving and caring way. If you see a point you are looking at your own fabrication of reality. We are all connected. We must all be brothers and sisters.  We cannot escape this by building walls and dropping bombs.  One would sit on their lounge chair with an icetea, only to wait for some other cars to drop a bomb on them. The Zionists must love the Palestinians like they are their brothers or they will certainly not be there forever.  Love is the only way to win this game.
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— -
Muscleboy,

Absolutely right. There is no other answer. Everything else is just a temporary cease fire before the next round of killing. Of course, the same thing applies to the Palestinians.

On Zionism, although as a nationalism of ethnic identity it is fundamentally and forever divisive and anti-democratic, nevertheless there are all kinds of Zionists, from the most power-mad racists like Netanyahu to the most loving and humanitarian such as Uri Avnery and Michael Lerner. If any two-state solution could result in peace I would be all for it, but I doubt if it is even possible. However, we must work with the the humanitarians both in this country and in Israel while striving to isolate the fanatics.

I do not see the “One Democratic State” solution as implying that Jews will have to leave Israel. Quite the contrary; this is the only way Jews can continue to live in Israel in peace and security. But they will have to accept a paradigm change: to transform Israel from a Jewish state to a multicultural democracy, a country where Jew and non-Jew are equal in every respect and separation of church and state is strictly observed.

Muscleboy: I’ve had this discussion with TW many, many times.  You want to just roll the dice with the lives of 5 million Israeli Jews at stake and HOPE the Palestinians don’t take it as a license to slaughter them.  It’s easy to risk someone else’s life on a gamble, isn’t it?  Just ask George W. Bush.

Our own Constitution was written by men who ASSUMED that scoundrels and scalawags would be in government and set up a system to counter-act them.  Yet you would believe there are no such scoundrels amongst the Palestinians and would set up a system that was totally vulnerable to them.

There WAS a right-to-return, but with a closing date.  Back in 1948.  Some Palestinians used it, others left.  Now they want a do-over 60 years later when by far MOST of the Palestinians were born after 1948 (I don’t have exact numbers but if they followed world growth patterns maybe 1 out of 6 was alive before the right-to-return expired).  Choices have consequences.

Sepharad II:  I’m not sure I’m comprehending you completely nor that I agree with your position entirely.

My problem essentially is this: We are all basically a thing called souls.  Our body is kind of like a robotic interface that our soul occupies, some people call it simply a vehicle, let’s call it a “car”.  What kind of car you have depends on a host of things.  Some people think the car is what they and others actually are.  But, no it’s the soul inside, as anyone with reasonable sense would be able to understand with substantial effort.  I think I can even prove it scientifically although a won’t elaborate.  And by the way, to clarify, I do wholly agree with Oz’s mission, as I perceive it to be.

Anything you do, establishing rules about where people can and cannot live and who has more military might than another is all just superficial dust in the wind thoughts and wishes in the end. You have no more power than anyone else.  You can try to use your car and other cohort cars to repress and control others by chains and trickery but it all is for naught. These actions don’t have anything to do with actual reality. 

The reality is very simple.  We are all basically the same beings, interconnected through God or whatever you believe is the force of life.  There is no point in anything if it does not enrich and empower everyone in a mutually loving and caring way. If you see a point you are looking at your own fabrication of reality. We are all connected. We must all be brothers and sisters.  We cannot escape this by building walls and dropping bombs.  One would sit on their lounge chair with an icetea, only to wait for some other cars to drop a bomb on them. The Zionists must love the Palestinians like they are their brothers or they will certainly not be there forever.  Love is the only way to win this game.

Shepharad… I admire Oz, although I don’t always agree with him, I see that his objectives are good from what I know of him. 

We can’t have anything less than pre 1967 Borders; Israel’s capitol cannot be Jerusalem, it must be Tel Aviv; control of Jerusalem must be split or it must be made an internation city; full right of return or complete compensation combined with a reduced right of return with full protected status and powers of citizenship for those who return.  You can play games with justifications and right and wrong all you want, anything less than this is criminal and unforgivable. The stated objective should be to make everyone in Palestine friends and brothers; Israel and Palestine, that is.  Zionists have their own set of beliefs which is their right to believe those things but they have no place in the final settlement if we are to succeed at true peace.

Tony: Regarding the 1 state solution.  Many of the Orthodox Jews that are completely opposed to Israel’s very existence exclaim loudly that Palestine had very happy Jews living with their Muslim friends and there were no problems for hundreds even thousands of years before the zionists.  Even today Israeli Jews that are found living in towns with Palestinians end up being the best of friends. The Orthodox Jews and Ultra Orthodox jews who hold this opinion say the state of Israel must cease to exist utterly, that no peace will ever occur with the Zionists involved in the process to any extent.  Some go on to say that there seems to be huge evidence that the powers that be of international Zionism don’t regard anyone else as even human and certainly not worthy of taking what Zionists declare to be theirs(Most of the middle-east not just Palestine) a kind of ultra racism taken to the most remote extreme with a never ending global bloodlust for power unchecked partly because of the bought-off and hijacked Western democracies.

Ok I can see their point.  However, the problem is you would be agreeing with them and we could house Jews from Israel at places around the world, USA and Europe.  And this would end this theocratic racist state if that’s what you believed and certainly a great many Jews and non-Jews do believe this.  But I think it is plausible to reign in the freakish elements of the Zionists and just say NO MORE and do so in a way that is respectful and caring for the reasonable Zionists and of course for the Palestinians who have suffered horribly under Zionist rule.

If you say no to either one of these solutions and there should be just one Israeli state you’d have to realize that Jews wouldn’t be the majority and it would no longer be a Jewish run state which arguably for sane people is probably a good think but it would effectively be option A, the end of the Zionist state.

But I see your point completely.

Kdelphi: No I’m not interested in what YOU SAY I SAID ETC.  I say one thing and you twist it around all you’re doing is playing some sort of game and I’m not interested. No more. You win.

Hope you get over that flare.

Muscleboy—I said I would come back here today, so I did. Didnt read everything, I’m having an RA flare. Gotta stay off my feet.

I still submit that Obama’s policy, on his website, looks nearly identical to Clinton’s etc., all before Bush. If that’s ok with you, ok.

But, since youre “not interested”, I dont know why I bothered. I posted Obama’s policies , asked a serious question, as to how that represeted “change” (except from Bush—which we had to do anyway, or change teh constitution), and you arent interested..

I fail to see how disagreeing, and, asking questions over and over, because I never get answers, except, “i think his heart is in the right place” (so were alot of peoples’ I think)is “arguing for the sake of arguing”. We shall see, and, I hope you are correct, as I have said.Cant belabor the point for a few days—sure that dose not disappoint.

But, I am certainly not the only progressive who will not be backing Dems if there is not more “change”. Chris Matthews and Norman Soloman and Tony Carpenter(name correct? I cant think on steroid shots), the latter two of pDA, are certainly counting on more. Matthews has a “theory” that Obama is appointing “centrist/right wing” , and that he will “move to the Left” I do not understand that theory—but I wish it was correct.I dunno—Matthews has been a pretty staunch ally.

You take care, too. We’re certainly going to need to. Peace.

Also, what I dont like about your style of “debate” (not you personally—although it seems to be impossible for people to not take it that way) , since you listed what you dont like about me, is that you attribute motivation to a person you dont know at all. Please dont do that.

By Folktruther, December 8 at 12:38 pm #

Way to go, Tony Wicher!  You reaffirm my faith that there is good in everyone.  Of course Obama opposing Israel has as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, since Obama has surrounded himself with Zionists. 
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— —-
F,

You may be right but I continue to nourish hope. At this point, I continue to believe that Obama is smart, knows what he is doing and his heart is in the right place.

re Sepharad, December 8 at 1:17 pm

“Do anything you can to help both sides because both are on the verge of making the most painful decisions in their histories. The Israelis, by relinquishing the occupied territories, will be ... taking very serious security risks from future extremist Arab powers who may, one day, use Palestinian territory to launch an attack on Israel which, after the withdrawal, will only be 12 kilometers wide right at the hip. The boundary of the future Palestinian state will start about seven kilometers from our one and only international airport. Palestine will be about 20 kilometers from half the Jewish population. Jerusalem will be on the border. ... The Palestinians, for their part, will have to say ‘goodbye, Jaffa; goodbye Be’ersheeva; goodbye, Haifa” which used to be Arabic and no longer are part of Palestine. This is going to hurt like hell.”
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— —-
Sepharad,

As an advocate of the One Democratic State solution to the conflict, that is, the reunification of Israel and Palestine into one country, what I don’t understand is why, now that as you say both Israelis and Palestinians finally accept that the other exists and is not going to go away, why they don’t see that neither side has to give up any part of the country that they both want, providing that they now learn to SHARE it, to both proudly say “This land is your land, this land is my land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean” - simply to live together, intermingled as fellow human beings and fellow citizens.

Why must this Holy Land be partitioned? I think maybe it’s against God’s will. And it does not address the fundamental principle that nationalism based on ethnic, racial or religious identity is anti-democratic.

Way to go, Tony Wicher!  You reaffirm my faith that there is good in everyone.  Of course Obama opposing Israel has as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, since Obama has surrounded himself with Zionists.  And it is not voting against Israel in the UN that is crucial, but the threat of denying them miitary, economic and ideological support.  None of which will happen under Obama.

But Israel is suffering from the usual megalomania of imperialism and the increasing opposition by the American population can discourage them from the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the Palestinians, largely by massacre.  This was done previously in the Beirut massacres, and Netanyahu is leading the election to become the premier of Israel.

Re Muscleboy

“If we are bound to Israel’s defense then they must be bound to our interests and that includes behaving in a proper fashion.  Jews don’t need a homeland they are not threatened and good people will protect them everywhere if they are.  But Israel exists and we have pledged support so Obama must make right our relationship and put a permanent end to this nightmare.”

Muscleboy,

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders. I quite agree with this. The U.S. must require Israel either to withdraw from the West Bank so that a viable Palestinian state can be formed, OR as an alternative to offer full Israeli citizenship to all persons living in the West Bank and Gaza and make Israel a country of all its citizens rather than a state where Jews are favored over non-Jews(the One Democratic State solution). The U.S. is Israel’s only ally and Obama has only to tell Israel the U.S. will vote against it in the United Nations if Israel does not comply. Given assurances of U.S. and international support, it will comply. 

The fact is that all nationalism based on racial or religious identity is anti-democratic, and that includes Jewish nationalism.

The following quote was taken from an article written in Army Times .com this article after one day on the site was removed and the bracketed words were not present when it was reposted. The entire article concerns the full time deployment of the third infantry division to the North American command. The point, be careful using the word truth it is a perspective not a constant. The ministry of truth can change that perspective at any time. 
“[They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control] or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.”

Bishop Richard Williamson 9/11 inside Job

Video, linked below, speech of the Bishop discussing the system of lies and the new type of police state we have today.  Do research and you to will realize that 9/11 was, in fact, orchastrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJhfQSspj2Q

Society of St. Pius X Bishop Richard Williamson Claims 9-11 Was An Inside Job

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic _blog/2007/11/society-of-st-p.html

9/11 beyond any doubt was orchestrated for the purpose of deceiving the American people to lead to the invasion of Iraq and massive looting of the US treasury.

CFR Pushes for Change

Friend tells me that the Council on Foreign Relations is telling Obama that he should cut off all aid to Israel if they do not go along 100 percent with a full blown plan to lead to a secure and valid two state solution, in line with the Arabs 2002 proposal.  If true this is extremely good news.

2003 Poll

There was a Gallop 2003 poll where in 76 percent of Americans made clear they were in favor of cutting off aid to Israel.  This poll was literally buried alive by the Zionists in power and others.  But nonetheless it shows clearly what a fraud the entire Israel issue is.  If we are bound to Israel’s defense then they must be bound to our interests and that includes behaving in a proper fashion.  Jews don’t need a homeland they are not threatened and good people will protect them everywhere if they are.  But Israel exists and we have pledged support so Obama must make right our relationship and put a permanent end to this nightmare.  It is a waste of all the good times we can all have with a strong and secure and fully sovereign two states.

Ironically real Jews are the nicest people in the world.  These power hungry atheists running Israel are blinded by evil.  Israel is hijacked by freaks lets all together free ourselves and live in peace and joy. It is not impossible.

Enough

By imposing the 2002 Arab peace plan on Israel there we have radical change from even the most Palestinian friendly presidents prior.  And there are stark differences between Bush and all previous presidents.  Bush shut down efforts even to protect our nation from Israeli spying which Biden has made clear in the past, that ally or not, Israeli spies must be put in US prisons. Clinton met with Yasser Arafat in the White House every week or something.  Bush never met with him and had no real effort to communicate with him, worse he actually gave the ultra fascist party power in Israel and gave them the green light to kill Arafat.  Bush was clearly incapable of anything but the worst evil and empowering the most evil people on a global basis. He turned Blair in the UK into a neocon puppet psycopath and of course Brown was pre-approved by the neocons(israeli agents).

You see, after the election Obama made very clear that nothing less than the pre 1967 boundaries must be made real.  If that is moving to the center than I don’t understand the phrase.

Enough, you seem to argue for the sake of some kind of debate points.  I’m not interested.  Take care.

Muscleboy—This is from Obama’s website:

Israel
Ensure a Strong U.S.-Israel Partnership: Barack Obama and Joe Biden strongly support the U.S.-Israel relationship, and believe that our first and incontrovertible commitment in the Middle East must be to the security of Israel, America’s strongest ally in the region. They support this closeness, and have stated that the United States will never distance itself from Israel.
Support Israel’s Right to Self Defense: During the July 2006 Lebanon war, Barack Obama stood up strongly for Israel’s right to defend itself from Hezbollah raids and rocket attacks, cosponsoring a Senate resolution against Iran and Syria’s involvement in the war, and insisting that Israel should not be pressured into a ceasefire that did not deal with the threat of Hezbollah missiles. He and Joe Biden believe strongly in Israel’s right to protect its citizens.
Support Foreign Assistance to Israel: Barack Obama and Joe Biden have consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. They defend and support the annual foreign aid package that involves both military and economic assistance to Israel and have advocated increased foreign aid budgets to ensure that these funding priorities are met. They have called for continuing U.S. cooperation with Israel in the development of missile defense systems.

So, since all US presidents have suported Israel, almost to the exclusion of Palestine and Arabs, Obama must do it, also. I understadn ath, to be elected, perhaps he must—but he was supposed to be “different”. “Not just a politician” everyone exclaimed..This is not helpful to Israel, either , you know. My brother in law is Jewish, and he thinks that Zionism is ruining the Jewish Americans, as well as Israel.

I am not tryibng to be argumentative, but, how does that respresent “change”? I am asking a serious question, but, now I must go cook dinner for a neighbor. I will check back here tommorrow, or whenever….

I will take your word for it on the AIPAC speech.

Kdelphi: Blah blah blah blah blah.

Lol sorry…anyway… 

Obama’s trip to Israel, I’m fairly certain, was in July and that is where he made the big mistake in speaking, I believe.  But he may well have had other mistakes, as humans do.

The Aipacians have threatened politicians in the USA with defeat if they are not obeyed.  With a network in the USA they have publicly stated is an extension of the IDF(Israel’s armed forces).  They lost bigtime this time.  Aipac used every trick in the book to try to defeat Obama but good prevailed.

As of circa November 2008, it is reliably reported that Obama wants the Arab peace plan of 2002 made a reality.  He has stated that that includes Israel removing all occupied territory settlements and returning to it’s pre-1967 borders.  This is a huge thing and has already, publicly, been embraced by at least some of the Israelis.  This could lead to legitimate peace where the welfare and interests of all are taken into consideration and fully respected.  I think issues like right of return can be settled partly by return and partly by monetary compensation.  It is a bold objective, with the USA and Europe and Russia, along with the Arabian nations fully behind it we can see two sovereign and secure nations come into being within as little as a year.  There are so many great motivators, but the USA must be very insistent with Israel and work to empower the decent people of Israel, it is our right and responsibility.

This is Obama’s position and it is his current position post-election day, verified as of about mid November to be exact.

Muscleboy—The AIPAC speech as made in Florida—Palm Beach or Miami—where there is a large retired Jewish comunity. If Oabama retracted that statement, I did not know it.

“What you do, that I don’t think I like, is try to pull out facts that support your opinion.”

Ah, yes…dont we all. I never stated that the “facts” are always the “facts”. We both found “facts” of disparate truth on different sites. That was my point, although I may have not made it clearly—you expressed hope that the internet was “opening up the truth ” (not your words) and implied that people would be less easy to lie to. I dont know if I trust that. I find alot of crap out there! And, people seem to be pretty guillable ...I had more hope about the internet years ago—I was “offline” for a time—I couldnt afford it. (still cant!)Since I’ve been back on, for about 8 mos. there is alot more censorshup, shrillness, and lying. Just plain lying.

“Try to imagine doing something familiar to your own personal experience:  Going on a business trip; going to a funeral by plane; going to take five end of term exams with no sleep and not quite as much studying under your belt.  This is what President Obama has had to do for nearly 2 solid years, running for president, nearly non-stop. This is but one of the facts that must be factored in to making a valid conclusion in our quest for the truth.”

Sorry, I cannot buy that one. Every candiate did this. The campaign should be alot shorter! It is just getting ridiculous, and, way too expensive. We need public financing, shorter campaigns, more parties, term limits, and, since I’m asking for everything (lol) a parliamentary system with multiple partes and proportional representation..just a couple things..

“The other problem I have with you is even after making a fairly well stated argument you seem to like to default to generally accepted wisdom on things such as “history is written by the victor” or some other such thing. ..”

I think that that statement is true, because, the losers are usually dead or in captivity.But, maybe you were not referring to actual wars.. if you mean that the truth will eventually come out, as in , slavery, or the uS treatment of Native Ams, maybe…but, that doesnt really help us now…maybe you think that the truth will come out sooner?

I do not feel “empowered” at all. I feel that I am represented by neither party. That is what happens in a duopoly.

I said over and over that I would love to be wrong about the Dem Party this time. I still hope that I am. But, you must admit—did you really think we would be talking about a transtion team of Gates and Clinton and Summers?

Peace, ok?

Xntrk—Some really good points. Thanks. I guess, I , too, rather remember RFK as to what he MIGHT have become. Yes, he did change—and he needed to! But, who am I to say?

I think that, if JFK had lived, he wouldve been considered a moderate. He sure did like cutting taxes and was pretty belicose on Cuba! But, I was way too young to remember—I do remember my mother concerned that he was “catholic” after he was elected—but, when my best friend took me to Mass years later—she was terrified! LOL! The “cathiolic mennace”! I also remember my parents as staunch GOP! (Esp my mom!) She campaigned for Nixon! (Also Goldwater). My dad liked Goldwater, but, began to drift wtih Nixon and cmpletely abandoned the GOP at Bush Sr’s “blood for oil” war, as he called it.

Too bad none of those people you name ever became president! Now, that wouldve been something! President Eugene Debs…President W.E.B. DuBois…now THAT I would like! Can you think of any present day people we could look to , for the same kind of inspiration?

Facts vs. Opinion?

I plainly go about the process of developing my opinions based upon, what I like to consider, a thorough review of the facts.  I like the process of TRUTH discovery as much as the event of discovery itself and believe in the end I’m always in the process to one extent or the other.  My conclusions are subject to constant review and reconsideration as well as the discovery of new facts.  I often tend to process my data in a way that, I feel, squeezes out the bottom line truth with extreme precision.  As such, I often come across as supremely certain, just a hair more certain than I actually am.

But for instance, the fact you sited regarding the speech Obama made before Zionists(I thought that speech took place in Israel?),where Obama made the misstatement that Jerusalem was and should go to Israel entirely, you failed to state that Obama completely retracted his statement. 

Try to imagine doing something familiar to your own personal experience:  Going on a business trip; going to a funeral by plane; going to take five end of term exams with no sleep and not quite as much studying under your belt.  This is what President Obama has had to do for nearly 2 solid years, running for president, nearly non-stop. This is but one of the facts that must be factored in to making a valid conclusion in our quest for the truth.  I also like to simplify my conclusions which works well with people from schools like Johns Hopkins who see the complexity in my simplicity but not so well with others, I’ve found; that is just a personal observation.

What you do, that I don’t think I like, is try to pull out facts that support your opinion.  What is different with my method is I try to find the truth in all the facts conglomerated and processed as carefully as I can.  The devil is in the details I have found so often.  Singular facts or even a list of facts is not the truth whereas a well conceived opinion can be. 

The other problem I have with you is even after making a fairly well stated argument you seem to like to default to generally accepted wisdom on things such as “history is written by the victor” or some other such thing.  I like to free myself constantly of generally accepted notions as part of my operational process for truth finding.  So many people feel some strange comfort in these notions almost as if they are empowered by being a member of the superset or something.

Alas, I do think there is extremely valid reason to be concerned about Obama and “the Democrats”, so we do agree, after a fashion.  But my current position is to be in a kind of holding pattern until all the dust finally settles, both ready to assist President Obama and to not, depending how things actually go.

Clash—Yes..or they are able, with help from the population to MAKE themselves stronger.

We pay for their “defense” of their money, resources, greed, and Imperialist ventures.

“We” also fight their wars. And we pay for them, by being “forced’ to “bailout” the financiers , who were already making record profits off of blood and treasuer, of our country’s , as well as the “enemy"s..

Has anyone’s pensison gone back up? I am beginning to think that the entire thing was a scam, to just take working peoples’ money. Well, I’ve thought that for awhile, actually. Shock Doctrine. Is the Big 3 Bailout the use of shock to scam labor? The Senate Hearings sounded like it.

In their own persons, mentally and physically, most are very weak.

We will have to let them know that we are no longer going to pay for them to kick our asses, starve us out, and, do the same to other populations around the world.

Ed—I have very little disagreement with you, I suspect. I