KDelphi, December 5 at 2:20 pm #

Sam Adams beer sucks!
*********************************

Instant judgment: You have no taste. When you recommend movies or restaurants, I won’t go to them. Next you’ll tell me Genesee Beer is good.

*********************************
Carlberg, here, when I can afford it..usually, cheap wine..
**********************************

Guess I was right..Carlsberg—might as well be buttwiper.  And there’s a difference between cheap wine and inexpensive wine (the heartburn and headache go with one of them..)

***********************************
Its so much easier to just post on food or beer…why not address the points about war mongering? Specific to Obama, I mean. Cause there is nothing there.
***********************************

(yawn)

***********************************
NOW I see—so you ARE going to DC!! How much did you have to contribute for tickets to that?
************************************

Actually, no.  But it was an opportunity for a joke, so I couldn’t pass it up.  I’ve been to DC, thousands of times—commuting everyday from Northern Virginia (where we had the votes to put Doug Wilder in office, and where the people there now have thrown out George Allen and replaced Warner (R) with Warner (D).)

************************************
YOU , especially,will be happy to know that the bars in DC will be OPEN ALL NIGHT! Maybe you can drink yourself into thinking he was a good presidenial pick!
************************************

I’m there already and I’m stone cold sober tonight.  Unlike all you whiners here, I happen to think Barack Obama is the BEST presidential selection since FDR—including the “sainted” Jack Kennedy. And FDR was the best since his cousin, TR, who was the best since Lincoln.

*********************************************
Wait a minute—-is that what you already did? Sly!!

Are you hungry or something? Cause I could send something, maybe..government cheese for nachos??
***********************************************

I’m not Sly—I’m ITW.  I don’t need that famous gummint cheese…thanks anyway.  What are YOU doing with it?

Sam Adams beer sucks! Carlberg, here, when I can afford it..usually, cheap wine.. Its so much easier to just post on food or beer…why not address the points about war mongering? Specific to Obama, I mean. Cause there is nothing there.

NOW I see—so you ARE going to DC!! How much did you have to contribute for tickets to that? YOU , especially,will be happy to know that the bars in DC will be OPEN ALL NIGHT! Maybe you can drink yourself into thinking he was a good presidenial pick!

Wait a minute—-is that what you already did? Sly!!

Are you hungry or something? Cause I could send something, maybe..government cheese for nachos??

KDelphi, December 5 at 11:15 am #

How much beer did you drink??
************************************************

All of it.  You got any more?  How about popcorn? If not, what about Nachos?  I only like the good stuff, like Sam A. not buttwiper.

****************************************************
I posted drunk or high a coupla times—-regreted it too! I never do it now.lol…
****************************************************

Really?  You mean you posted all that….SOBER???

****************************************************
So—you say that Nader and DK WILL NOT be appointed?! Oh gawd!! Well, I just give up!! I think I’ll go get drunk! I was certain they would ...oh, never mind….
****************************************************

Not me.  I’m outta beer.

****************************************************

Are you going to the coronation? Cause, I could, like , ride with you…
****************************************************

Yeah, sure.  If you don’t mind riding in the bed of the P/U.

J/K!  You can ride in the passenger seat….Did you shower first, though? (don’t want anybody smelling like a brewery in MY truck!)

ITW—So…by this logic, because I stated many times aht I feared he would do what he is now doing, even though many people here insisted that his was going to CHANGE things—I have no right to be angry about it now, in my own coutnry? Wow…

How much beer did you drink??

I posted drunk or high a coupla times—-regreted it too! I never do it now.lol…

So—you say that Nader and DK WILL NOT be appointed?! Oh gawd!! Well, I just give up!! I think I’ll go get drunk! I was certain they would ...oh, never mind….

; (

And, the US will NEVER stop war-mongering, war profiteering, neglecting its own citizens, etc. So, why bother, youre absolutely right…

Are you going to the coronation? Cause, I could, like , ride with you…

Damn! I’m out of popcorn!

KDelphi: Why don’t you and FolkTruther go to Warshingdon and tell Obama what he needs to do?  I mean, what a stinker Barack is: He’s doing exactly what he said he would do, and he isn’t appointing a bunch of ideologues with no record of actually being to get things done—like Nader and Kucinich.

I got news for you: The chances are slim-to-none of DK getting an administration job, and his chances of getting a Cab post along with Nader’s chances of getting ANY appointment are ZERO. NADA. RIEN.

I’d even be happy to make book on that.

As usual, TD’ers are mad at Obama for not being the guy he never said he would be.  To them, “change” has to mean socialism, neo-marxism and other FAILED systems.

I’m gonna go get more popcorn…And beer, I forgot the beer…..

Louise—you never seem to address the issue we are supposed to be talking about! Did you read the posts? This did NOT “start with George”. Surely you know that! Maybe not—it seems to be the only change you expected—see , this thing called elections happens every 4 yrs, and, ...

If you expected that Obanma woudl chose a cabinet like THIS, you were in the minority, I can assure you.Of course, we would have “CHANGE” from BUSH—unless he pulled an FDR or changed the constitutaion!(Hey, maybe he shouldve tried—who wouldve stopped him? Certainly not the Dems!) ANYBODY woudlve been CHANGE from Bush!

Maybe, YOU are the true Republican plant…

BTW—I rather like Richardson—I wish Obama would appoint a cabinet of them—Kucinich, Nader, Sanders, Feingold, I could go on. There are plenty of qualified progressives out there…its just that Obama is a conservative..But, it is no use. The Dems are just conservative to the core. I have no more use for them.

But—never fear! The duopoly reigns!

Note to self: Consensus + caution = CHANGE

KDelphi,

“Maybe I am missing the point…what is it? That no one should be able to criticize Obama now, once he is elected? Before? When would it be ok?”

Gosh I’m glad you asked that question!

What IS the point?

Now consider ... if Obamas cabinet actually starts solving problems in an incredibly effective way ... will you post positive comment on the outcome? Or will you simply look for something wrong, as you do now? It’s not that I object to criticizing Obama. It’s the looking intensely, almost joyfully for failure. That’s just so republican.

I think it’s safe to say most of us want the failure that the last eight years has been to STOP! You can call that hope or foolhardy, I don’t care. I think I would feel the same way if I was gambling with treatment on a possibly fatal cancer. Would you condemn me for having hope?

Yes indeed, what IS the point?

Once again I repeat:

“… it’s just impossible for me to FORGET George and the repubs created this mess! So I’m going to wait out the next 49 days (48 now, soon to be 47) until Obama actually IS in charge, before I reduce myself to mud wallowing.”

By the way, I use the term mainstreammedia on a regular basis and I do intend it to be all-inclusive, and I don’t understand what you mean. Sorry.

Folktruther,

Reality-based truth is often based in reality. And the reality is, if we want to see any sort of sanity restored to our government, a good place to begin is with people who have been in touch with, or touched by the insanity swirling around us. I doubt you could find anyone better qualified to step into the middle of that swirl than someone who has managed to function effectively and still keep from getting swallowed up in the swirl.

Perhaps you are one of those who has no respect for the military, or sees no value in anyone who has made the military their career. Otherwise you would be able to understand where I’m coming from. Jones is a brilliant choice and I have no fear that future events will prove that true. At least to those of us looking for a cure, instead of another disease.

Just for the heck of it, who would YOU pick to run the country and solve the problems? And how would you make that happen?

You know this article was based on the premise that
“Barack Obama may not deliver the promised “change we can believe in.”

But frankly, obvious preconcieved prejudice exposed here, reveals a lot of folks never were looking for that change in the first place. And seem far more anxious to focus on failure.

Maybe it’s the baby-blanket syndrome. Anticipate the worst, cause that’s the blanket that’s familiar and feels comfortable.

No, Louise, we can’t come up with orginial ideas like you do.  We simply haven’t your originality.  Your defense of a war monger and corporate toady, Jones, as a BRILLIANT appointment, now that’s original.  We prefer the reality-based truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_media

(or MSM, as it says under google). That’s where I got it and , also, from you…). And, I think main stream media includes all three cable news channels. (with MSNBC and FOX being the worst)Also, Rupert Murdoch radio, etc.

If you thought it was too inclusive, you shouldnt have used the term.

“The communications audience has been viewed by some commentators as forming a mass society with special characteristics, notably atomization or lack of social connections, which render it especially susceptible to the influence of modern mass-media techniques such as advertising and propaganda. The term “MSM” or “mainstream media” has been widely used in the blogosphere in discussion of the mass media and media bias”

From Louise:

“Seems to me some “truth” diggers sound an awfully lot like some cable news, news-casters, [with a few notable exceptions] who couldn’t find a positive thing to say about a new administration, if their income depended on it! “

Or, if you prefer:

“So maybe, in spite of all the high-minded intellect and thoughtful “independence” you prowdly suffer from, you really are being totally manipulated by mainstreammedia….”

And this, is not from a “blog”:

”...a paper in Billings, so he manages not to mention the key point. Money. Go to maplight.org….”

Here are Obama’s contributors, from maplight, and opensecrets.org

Interest Contributions
Retired $41,377,564
Attorneys & law firms $37,193,295
Schools & colleges $15,955,408
General commerce $12,306,371
Security brokers & investment companies $6,946,172
Civil servant/public employee $6,353,080
Business services $5,995,808
Democratic/Liberal $5,671,243
Book, newspaper & periodical publishing $5,392,514
Physicians $4,530,946

Here is Security brokers & investment companies
Contributions Bills supported and opposed Showing contributions
Jan 2001-Oct 2008 Senate / Jan 2003-Oct 2008 HouseTop 10 Recipients Funded
Recipient Amount
Barack Obama $6,946,172
John McCain $4,537,268
Hillary Clinton $4,228,148
John Kerry $2,754,730
Christopher Dodd $2,092,631
Joseph Lieberman $1,598,850
Charles Schumer $1,479,701
Mitch McConnell $584,560
Christopher Shays $573,176
Norm Coleman $563,422

Maybe I am missing the point…what is it? That no one should be able to criticize Obama now, once he is elected? Before? When would it be ok?

This did not start with “Bush” (either one), but here is Obama praising Reagan again:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9204

“What happened was Democrats had gotten complacent, had gotten fat and happy. they thought there was a government program to solve every problem. Ronald Reagan came in and said we need to break out of the old ways of doing things and create a leaner, more effective government,” he said. “That was the right message then. I think that right now we went too far in the wrong direction. We can’t go back to the old liberalism of the past, but [when] you are on your own economic philosophy [of] Bush and McCain doesn’t work either. Let’s try a new way where we apply common sense, have government do what it does well.”

I’m not sure why this matters.  It’s a total misreading of Carter’s legacy, who was basically a conservative Democrat operating along very similar lines to Obama (with huge majorities entering after a disgraced Republican President).  Perhaps the worry is that the conventional wisdom about how to govern is being set by Republican interest groups, and Obama is following his lead from these groups, at least rhetorically.  I don’t know.  But I want our understanding of history to be clear.  Ted Kennedy ran against Carter in 1980 because he was too conservative.  Liberals just never had a chance to govern.

And, at this rate, they never will. I am tired of waiting..arent you? Of course we could do worse—but we could do better—especially after eight years of Bush—who you claim , got us to where we are.

KDelphi,
“mainstreammedia!” (?) That’s pretty all-inclusive.

And I repeat:

”... it’s just impossible for me to FORGET George and the repubs created this mess! So I’m going to wait out the next 49 days (48 now) until Obama actually IS in charge, before I reduce myself to mud wallowing.”

As far as the ban thing goes, I’ve never been banned so I cant offer an opinion. Besides, I really don’t have time to “check the sites that people are stating that they are banned from”, all day. And still read stuff that hopefully will educate me. Which by the way, eliminates most conservative sites.

I do enjoy researching people and policy as it becomes relevant. But all to often, relying on blogs (both sides) gives more bias than valuable research material.

Louise—I wonder why it is that you dont just check the sites that people are stating that they are banned from—those are almost all completely pro-Obama, and there are alot more of them than there are free speech “zones”.Just google “liberal blogs” or check the bottom of the page, here, after you go to the Home Page.The MSM?? You mean MSNBC? Or Fox? Two sides of the same coin.

ender-While it is true what you say about the Bush Family Cartel, it took a Dem Congress to vote in all the “Project for a New Am Century” proposals. Bush couldnt do it alone. Of course, they didnt “take back the Congress ” until 2006—-noticed the big difference? Me neither. Oh! Minimum wage…still too low…humiliating by world standards of living.. But, they are always just one more vote away from making big time change!

Obama’s “health insurance plan” has been out there for a long time, and it was never to be “national”, in the usual sense of the word—15 million left out were low estimates. Now, they will have the Wall St. Bailout and “we cant reverse the tax cuts during a recession ” excuse to do nothing. Good, I would rather see them do nothing than to try another market based mess, that would just pacify those already covered, or, who think that they dont need to be, into self-congratulating about “health insurance reform”.If it costs less than $850 billion—we can afford it. If it is more popular than the Bailout—they did that anyway! FISA too!

The Baucus plan would just “pool the sick”, as is already done. We know what to do. No need to re-invent the wheel. We could do HR 676. Obama doesnt want to. He could.He wont. Here is why Baucus wont (I submit..)

The writer works for a paper in Billings, so he manages not to mention the key point. Money. Go to maplight.org. Its a nice site that analyses campaign contribution records. If you look at Max Baucus, here’s what you see as his top contributors.

Total Campaign Contributions Received: $15,975,018

Top 10 Interests Funding
Interest - Contributions
Attorneys & law firms - $950,692
Security brokers & investment companies - $478,703
Lobbyists & Public Relations - $477,870
Insurance companies, brokers & agents - $397,435
Other physician specialists - $322,699
Commercial banks & bank holding companies - $320,157
Pharmaceutical manufacturing - $294,620
Life insurance - $281,900
Pro-Israel - $280,191
Hospitals - $256,097

I dont think that Obama is “worse than Bush”, maybe , same as Clinton—the problem with neo-liberals, as I am beginning to fully understand is , that, people assume that they are more compassionate, that they wil enact progressive programs, and, then when they dont, they claim to just need “one more term”, “ont more majority vote”, etc. So, nothing ever changes, so , then we get the GOP Vampires, and people are so terrified , they vote Dems. Rinse. Repeat.

Exactly.

Richard Holbrooke has been appointed to State Department in some capacity to deal with Southeast Asia.  Under Pres. Carter, he was involved with providing weapons to the Indonesian military who used those weapons to murder one-third of the Timorese population.  He assisted in the break-up of Yugoslavia, creating an insoluble problem much like the ones that the UK used to create to guarantee strife somewhere in the world. 
He lied about the actual events of the Russian counter invasion of Georgia.  He said Russia invaded Georgia without cause.  That has been proven to be a lie by observers.
What can you do with a man like this and a President who appoints him?  The Pied Piper and his followers are going to blindly rejoice.  The press, after all, cheered Bush for his inauguration day speech, which use the word ‘liberty’ 33 times.  Howard Fineman of NBC said he just wanted to relish the moment without any serious analysis of what’s to come.
I think this man has adopted the Leo Strauss exoteric/esoteric approach to speech writing.  That is: Say something encoded that’ll be interpreted by the public as meaning one thing, but then in reality, is interpreted by the inner circle as something completely different.  They used to call that, talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Now that it has an intellectual flair to it, we peasants will never get it.

Outraged, November 30 at 12:05 am #

It would be well appreciated if you stopped the nonsense.
***************************************

She stopped but the rest of YOU have gone on with your paranoid fantasy nonsense.  Repeating yourselves on thread after thread, the same 10-20 posters. 

WHERE’S THE POPCORN! IS THERE ANYMORE BUTTER FOR IT?

Folktruther,

Has nothing to do with emotion. Just sick of reading the same thing over and over again.

Cant you folks come up with an original idea?

Louise- As to whether or not Obama is promoting the ‘Change We Can Believe In” it is quite true that you and the other Obama apologists don’t know yet. But the rest of us do.  Your problem in accepting the reality-based truth is not primarily intellectual but emotional.  You have wanted an alternative to Bush and have identified with Obama as such a alternative.

He isn’t, as his appointments and reneging on his campaign pormises clearly indicate.  He has appointed a highly-powered, experienced and strong staff of hawks to continue the endless War On Terror.  He has appointed neoliberal Clintonizes to continue unregulated globalism.  He has acquiested silently to the SWAT militarization of the police, the overflowing prisons, and the twenty thousand combat troops that Bush stationed in the US for use against the American population.

You want to wait before you accept this emotionally, and want us to wait too.  Fraid not.  The time to mobilize against the Bushite policies of Obaman is now.  Right now.

“Obama may not deliver the promised “change we can believe in.”

At the risk of causing serious, possibly harmful, collisions between loose brain cells bouncing about in cavernous craniums, I would like to point out, [drum roll please] WE DON’T KNOW YET!

So, just for the sake of giving those pained cells a break, why don’t you bitch-and-moaners jump over to: “Obama Introduces National Security Team” and find some fresh bodies to attack?

Or maybe you already have.

Seems to me some “truth” diggers sound an awfully lot like some cable news, news-casters, [with a few notable exceptions] who couldn’t find a positive thing to say about a new administration, if their income depended on it!

So maybe, in spite of all the high-minded intellect and thoughtful “independence” you prowdly suffer from, you really are being totally manipulated by mainstreammedia!

But it’s just impossible for me to FORGET George and the repubs created this mess! So I’m going to wait out the next 49 days until Obama actually IS in charge, before I reduce myself to mud wallowing.
But hey, if it gives you pleasure ...

that the USofA has been doing the bidding of a tyrant in the Offal Office for the last 8 yrs.  Anything is uphill from that.  If you read Obama’s books and listened to his speaches, you should have as I expected him to be a Clintonite Centrist.

The only progressive in the Primary race was Dennis Kucinich and the Dems made sure he never got a fair shot.

The difference is Obama will be working with a Democratic Congress, and Clinton was statistically the best President in 50 yrs while working with a Republican Congress.  NAFTA was his major screwup, but the monied elite in this country were going to get that passed if they had to kill someone to do it, and only an Obama and massive popular support for ending or reworking that treaty will have a chance.

Unfortunately the Bush Family Cartel has left us with a debt so massive and the military in such a shambles that Obama probably will not be able to deliver a really good healthcare plan in the first term.  We all know a private enterprise plan would bankrupt the gov’t in our current financial situation, and Congress is too beholden to private insurance and the AMA to let Obama Nationalize Healthcare.

If Obama just returns a majority of our troops home and treats military procurement as a necessary evil and not the Family Business he should be able to reduce military spending dramatically and quickly.  From that can come middle class tax cuts and domestic programs.

Education and Environmental protection can happen with relatively small funding and large policy changes.

Obama will probably not be the great Liberal endallbeall that many of us hoped for, but he won’t be dickbushmcsame and you damned well better be glad about that.

anar-peace—thanks for info. and link! I always try to read stuff like this very carefully, so I wont comment on the link yet, but it looks very good, some other ones on here, too…..I was thinking—-how about Cynthia McKinney? I havent gotten usual newsletters (emails) from Kucinich or Sanders, either. Maybe just because of “holidays”? Maybe you can think of someone, just to get people to think about alternative paradigms.—..I was banned from the DU my first day I logged in !! lol! Also, CD, etc.That is why it is still puzzling to me that Dem supporters are so ENRAGED when someone posts the rare questions about the Dems—-they have so many sites to choose from!

It didnt work for the neo-cons, and, in the long run it will sink the neo-libs. But, in the meantime, people suffer…

Folk—-that is a very good point,that some seem to be ignoring—like “its a change back to Clinton”—that is GOOD?? That is when the DLC started betraying labor, etc!  The country has moved so far Right, that, especially to young people, who have only known Bush and Clinton, Obama probably looks pretty good, no matter who he picks, or who he presents himself with! It would take socialism ten years to have the uS even approaching “change” towards “liberalism”, as it is defined in other countries…

Muscleboy—Please try getting your news from somewhere beside MSNBC. I used to like it..then I realized I was just “yes-yesing” myself.The Dem Convention was really the last straw. It was just ridiculous…

Read up on Obama’s stayover, Robert Gates, as SECDEF.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/111208.html

The country is in the BUSH - NeoCON toilet. Give the man a chance! He is already a better President than BUSH!

After the Democrats have been mau maued by the neocon right wing noise machine, Obama comes back with a vision of change.
I think what he means by change is on this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CNYcVd04Ys

A sort of polite, upper-east side-west coast nice feel to it.

There will be a simple way to find out what President Obama is up to in Iraq and Afghanistan after January 20, 2009.
Find out how many US soldiers there are in Iraq and Afghanistan at the end of every month. It is that simple.
If the DoD/Gates/Pentagon cannot give you the numbers they are hiding the truth.

I’m not pessimistic, Ed Harges.  I think the American people can and will change the US power system over historical time.  But not by supporting Obama.

Obama has just appointed a high powered and experienced Security Team to not only continue the Bushite War On Terrorism, but to expand it, increasing the US military and expanding the Afghan war to Pakistan. 

His financial team will continue the Bushite neoliberal policies, and his criminal jusstice team will continue to erect a police state.  His appointment to Homeland Security, Janet P,  openly calls herself a conservative in police matters and sponsored a vicious anti-Latino law against immingrants.

Obama is consolidating the Bushite counterrevolution.  He is triangulating like Clinton, but AFTER Bush 2, when the Elite political consnsus has moved sharply to the right.  Obama apologists will increasingly resemble neutered Republicans, which Obama is allying with.

It is therefore necessary for true progressives to oppose Obama while searching for a way to unite and mobilize the progressive left.  this can only be done by subverting American ideology, which is a tapistry of bullshit from beginning to end.

What is going on with this change in administration from neocon Bush to neoliberal Obama is the offering up of the American public once again to yet another round of philosophico—political sodomy.  Some of these pundits and soothsayers you find lying around are merely the lubricant.  They offer a fuzzy argument pro (Change you can believe in!) versus a cockamamie one against (Ayers was in closer to Obama than Obama is revealing.) to get over the difficult areas. 
For background music they offer state sponsored terrorism by none other than the U.S., UK, and Israel.  In hopes, this will scare the hell out of everyone.  Talk radio airs mumbo-jumbo claims and counter-claims of how difficult the economic road that lies ahead will be while, in reality, trillions of $s are being given out to who knows whom with no questions asked.
We have been put in hock for the rest of our lives.  Sold as slaves by the very ones we elected.  They try to muddy the facts of the case by saying it was the carry trade and then use the collapse of the economy of Iceland as a cautionary tale in case someone wants to play Oliver Twist.
Like a distant mirror from a fun house they are holding up distortions as historical facts. But there is a reckoning from the push of history and the pull of evolution.  Their attempt at causing Armegeddon via Israel and the misuse of the Christion church has been exposed as suicidal and insane.  The tv enagelists have toned down a bit and have retreated into more palatable homilies.
Now, we face a more formidable foe, ourselves.  We need to either shit or get off the pot.  Do Progressives want to stand and fight for what they believe in or do they want to first pat themselves on the back for overcoming racism and then later wring their hands and say we’ll have to wait for someone else in the future, the old Messiah hope.

Couple of times I´ve seen on the news what Obama has said about the change.  “I am the one who has the vision!”  So Obama selects his people.  Don´t you think it is about time we know “what is his vision for change is?”  So we as dumb sheep are not led down the path blindly.

re: Folktruther, November 30 at 9:34 am:

Your pessimism is totally justified, of course. I mean, just take as one example the issue of Israel’s “separation barrier” (mostly a wall), which doesn’t at any point actually separate Israel from the occupied territories (OT) but is entirely built *inside* the OT and effectively annexes big chunks of it. Hillary was a fervent and early advocate of this wall and still thinks it’s just swell, while Obama has never endorsed it. Does his appointment of Hillary as SoS imply that he now endorses this monstrous project? As long as the US continues to subordinate its foreign policy to Israel, we can expect nothing but more trouble.

Obama made bold promises.  We all assumed them to be truthful knowing it would be a full agenda he would have to martial the US government and all of us, but we knew it could all be done with the proper will.

I don’t think we can go entirely by his picks for one post or the other.  It is awfully strange that, at first, defense industrial complex mouthpiece MSNBC and it’s so-called experts stated Obama was to select Robert Gates, Bush’s faithful minion, beyond almost any doubt,  as defense secretary—other sources said the Obama transition team was saying it was less than a 1 in 10 chance he would go for Gates. I felt at hopeful once again.  But all along MSNBC said it was the “likely” choice of President Obama.  I am extremely stressed to read now that it seems to be just that, his choice beyond a doubt. What caused him to change is a mystery.

For all of us that have fought for what we thought was the good side, I don’t think it’s quite time to call Obama, “Bush continued.”  I think there is some hope.  I’m also destressed in his selection of Eric Holder who had chosen to destroy health care reform legislation by destroying the career of key Democrats at the same time the legislation was up for vote.  That and General James Jones whose entire career is faithfully serving the prince of darkness George Bush.

I’m destressed to a very great extent and gravely concerned for the country but I’m not ready to give up hope just yet. Not quite.

By KDelphi, November 30

Obama followers patiently awaiting instructions
Defending his unbroken string of establishment/hawkish/conservative appointments, the general speaks:

“What we are going to do is combine experience with fresh thinking. But I understand where the vision for change comes from. First and foremost, it comes from me. That’s my job—to provide a vision in terms of where we are going, and to make sure then that my team is implementing.”

________________________

1984 would be an excellent book to understand the language of modern day Democratic Party politics.

The majority of Democrats at DU whom organized around grassroots politics, were at all times,  simply a DLC tool. They are not even centrists; they are far right wing Republican/Democrats—not liberal/progressive Democrats.

They certainly are not “underground”  radical Democrats; because they would allow free speech; even Republicans to speak,  provided they not — takeover — the purpose of the assembly.

If people want to organize the actual liberals; it seems to me this might be the best time of all,  using the Nader model in 2000.

But find a new leader for the liberals; rather then Nader.

I wish it could be Nader; but he has been to slandered by the MIC and the Republican/Democrats.

Some of the Obama cult Dems may defect; before I got banned from DU,  I Received some valuable information — about the new strategy; that is—propagated—by the Obama coaches to the cult.

They are very careful and trained as well. They have actual licensed former and probably current shrinks—making sure no one deviates from the DLC triangulation political message of Bill Clinton.

Simply mentioning that shrinks; are some of the main organizers,  should get alot of people to defect.

_____________________________

Triangulation (politics)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clintonian_triangulation

Triangulation is the name given to the act of a political candidate presenting his or her ideology as being “above” and “between” the “left” and “right” sides (or “wings”) of a traditional (e.g. UK or US) democratic “political spectrum”. It involves adopting for oneself some of the ideas of one’s political opponent (or apparent opponent). The logic behind it is that it both takes credit for the opponent’s ideas, and insulates the triangulator from attacks on that particular issue. Opponents of triangulation[who?], who believe in a fundamental “left” and “right”, consider the dynamic a deviation from its “reality” and dismiss those that strive for it as whimsical.

Shift—GOOD QUESTION! The neo-liberal response to a simple suggestion was so out of line with the suggestion, as to only expose their desparation. Maybe Obama coudl hire his pr team right here?

Michael—I have been wondering at Labor’s lack of confrontation for years now. I just do not know. But, it make people not trust unions so the GOP and neo-libs must be esctatic@

Outraged—I participated in the netroots stuff (most were lawyers, etc, but many helped to “word” what alot of us had in mind,with more “legaleaze”) . Obama pretty much ignored it. Unfortunately , history is written by the winners…

That is why we have to win!! If people have money, they should put it to use organizing. If Labor would take off their rose-colored glasses, and join sp-usa and others, we night have a chance here.

In the meantime, “dig this”!! (If this doesnt scare you—it first appeared on CommonDreams, but I got it from John Caruso, who says it is written by—he says he is not kidding—“Joe Hope”...

Obama followers patiently awaiting instructions
Defending his unbroken string of establishment/hawkish/conservative appointments, the general speaks:

“What we are going to do is combine experience with fresh thinking. But I understand where the vision for change comes from. First and foremost, it comes from me. That’s my job—to provide a vision in terms of where we are going, and to make sure then that my team is implementing.”

And a soldier responds, in words that really must be read in their entirety to be appreciated:

Obama is picking people with the toughness and experience to get things done. We should be more supportive of his choices. The way I see it, we (the people who support Obama) are like foot soldiers in a nonviolent war for revolutionary change. Like any good soldier, I must trust my commander. Obama is my commander (in-chief) and I trust him. Okay, so here’s the tricky part. In a war, it is not the duty of a foot-soldier to develop the entire strategy for the war, nor is it the duty of a foot soldier to decide what orders to obey and which to disobey. No war could be won by an army governed by anarchy.

In this war, (against radical Right-wing government and social forces) it is up to Obama to craft a winning strategy, not us - the disorganized rabble. When we judge his strategy in a negative light, our criticism is ignorant, because we do not know what his full strategy entails. Keep in mind, it would be foolish, in a state of war, to simply divulge what that strategy is. So we must have faith in Obama and trust him. If we want change (and I know I do) then we must trust him, even when we feel we can’t. We must see beyond our fears, and remember that sometimes it is more important to follow than to try to lead. The Left does not need more wannabe leaders and more petty infighting. It’s like each of us has a piece of a puzzle, but only Obama can put the pieces together to create an image for our future.

END of PASTED post!

Outraged, your suggestion to ‘buy Obama back’ displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the power system works.  If the population were organized enough to contribute a significant amonnt of money to a cause, and we are not, it would be to pay organizers to help form a mass movement.

Obama is not up for sale. The problem is not his personal corruption but that of the power system. He is playing the power game the way capitalist power systems REALLY work as opposed to how we are Educated and Informed that they are supposed to work.  All professional politicians have to do so if they are to be elected.

The corruption occurs because the ruling class promotes its own interests under the guise of promoting those of the population.  Therefore politicians must conform to the Elite consensus to get the money, media and orgaganiation to win while pretending to conform to the population consensus.  As the US power system is near the end of its lifetime cycle historically, the deviation between the two consensuses is more obvious than at maturity.

So it is useless to ask Cyrena to be civil.  She wants to be a Dem Insider and the only way she can defend the obvious disparity between what Obama said and implied when running, and what he is doing after he is elected, is by smearing dissidents.  This is the same tactic that the Gops use, the Ann Coulter or Rush Limbargher approach to political discourse.

As the Dems go continuously to the right, and Obama continues Bush’s policies, this will more and more be the Dem and Zionist approach to progressives.  It HAS to be because they cannot argue on the basis of reason and evidence because that is against them.  Most of the Dems are not as venomous and poisonous as Cyrena, but the approach is the same.  You just have to expect it and get used to it.

Re: Cyrena

It would be well appreciated if you stopped the nonsense.

As an afterthought to my previous post, if a PAC were to be established for this purpose, isn’t it viable and extremely realistic to consider that MANY foreign countries would donate.  Save us…save themselves.  No bloodshed.

The world needs an honest lawyer in charge of this PAC…. I’m open to suggestions, although there is one which comes to mind.

Shift writes:

”...Wouldn’t you think that if Obama really cared about people that he would hold a press conference and find a way to get the food pantries filled?...”

~~~

You’re kidding, right? HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE?????????????????and find a way to get the food pantries filled????????????

Oh my God. Why are so many new crackpots coming out of the woodwork NOW? Didn’t we have to put up with enough of them BEFORE? Jesus H Christ. We need a break from this terror by the crazed.

Re: Shift

Your comment: “The People are hungry.  Where is our President Elect?  He is dining with bankers and economists.  Wouldn’t you think that if Obama really cared about people that he would hold a press conference and find a way to get the food pantries filled?  It’s not complicated, the People have been forgotten.  A little thing like food for the poor is unimportant compared with saving the rich.  Too cynical?  I think not.

This is true.  So…. I had the thought after reading your comment, a thought I’d been pondering since I felt Obama had been “bought out”, and that was… couldn’t we simply “buy Obama back”.  The claim is that the banks, for the most part are bust.  So how much money did they give Obama…. couldn’t we, as the multitudes…. do them one better (with stipulations of course, a proposal not unlike his “other” big money donors).  WE, the taxpayers, have a great deal of money.  Think about it…. I don’t say it’s something we should HAVE to do, but desperate times call for desperate measures… can these “campaign donors” match our collective ante?

Something tells me Obama just might “take us up on that deal”.  They say all is fair in love and war.  Additionally, our proposal would allow Obama to be written in the history books as saving democracy (a notable advantage) whereas “they” only give Obama the prospect of eternal damnation, at least as far as democracy or America is concerned.

Here are two more relevent articles to this discussion , one is another by Sirota http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008114828/pitfall s-and-possibilities-orwellian-pragmatism , the other on Obamas fundraising that was in the LA times ,http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/11/obama-m oney.html . If the links don’t work the Sirota article is on Buzzflash and the fund raising one is at Rawstory . They both dovetail with this one .

The People are hungry.  Where is our President Elect?  He is dining with bankers and economists.  Wouldn’t you think that if Obama really cared about people that he would hold a press conference and find a way to get the food pantries filled?  It’s not complicated, the People have been forgotten.  A little thing like food for the poor is unimportant compared with saving the rich.  Too cynical?  I think not.

dihey—Congress will not “oppose” what? They will go along with “getting out of Iraq more intelligently than we went in”. They will go along with ‘waiting to reverse the tax cuts”. They will go along with half measures on heatlh insurance.They will go along with the “war on terror”. They will go along with supporting Israel, no matter what they do. They will go along with agri-business, Wall St. FISA, The uSA Patriot Act, and all the rest of it.

What is it you are afraid they “wont oppose”?.

With regards to what he will actually propose to do, the crucial speech of President Obama will be his first “State of the Nation” address next year. To make any judgments I will have to wait for that speech. Possibly the most salient points of that address will be the issues that he does NOT touch.

Meanwhile it is perfectly acceptable and fair to point out discrepancies and dislocations between his statements during the campaign and his statements now. It is fair to criticize his support of stupid Bush policies. It is also kosher to signal and attack half-cocked ideas, semi-truths or outright lies launched by Obama. Why should he, a dyed-in-the-wool machine-politician be exempted from our most patriotic sport of kicking around politicians?

One of my concerns is that an Obama administration will not have any opposition in Congress. As long as the Republicans have not renewed themselves there will not be such an opposition and there is not likely to be a Democratic opposition with pitbull Rahm Emanuel in charge of party “unity” and “loyalty”. Bad, bad, bad.

Now that the growth of “third parties” is again proven to be wishful thinking, we the voters can only bring about change by supporting and electing truly* independent and innovative US Representatives and Senators that are not beholden to the Dems or Reps. Forget about third party candidates for the presidency. That will not work until the stranglehold on Congress by the Dems and Reps is broken.

*as opposed to the Lieberman joke.

The bloom is sure going off the Barack-O-rama “rose” in a hurry….at least among many of those commenting here.  Good thing all the grandiloquent imagery is preserved in the netherworld of the cyber-sphere, because it won’t be long before the great expectations raised by his campaign and “victory” will be at-best a bitter recollection. 

Some here seem to see through the media-generated facade to the still-disintegrating “civilization” behind it.  Most of even these, however, are as yet unable to see a way clear of the wreckage that offers them any incentive to welcome it’s actual (and inevitable) conclusion….their vision still distorted by generations of being ruled by fear.

Here in Indian Country we’re thoroughly grounded in the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth, who is in-turn engaged fully in the never-ending Song ‘n’ Dance of Life Herownself.  So the passing of one more land-of-make-believe, with its grandiose delusions of “global” empire, hasn’t the disconcerting effects on us surviving Savages it is having on our domesticated Sisters and Brothers who’ve mis-spent their own lives as captives within that contraption.

So for now this old Man can only urge those unfortunates to “Be not afraid.”  The “world” you’re so caught-up in has no more actual substance than the last hollywood horror-movie that you got so taken-in by.  Soon the “projector” will reach THE END of the last reel, and you all can come back into the natural Light and genuine Love of Life.

It’ll be good to have you all with us again.

HokaHey!

Jim C—Hey! How is it going?

I have given this deep and extensive thought, and, I diagnose, the PUSH ME/PULL YOU Syndrome!

Remember Dr Doolittle (ironic)? Remember, he had a sortve “conjoined llama-like animal” that pushed and pulled and just “went with the tide”, never really deciding anything.

Like Obama’s speech against big agri-business, until someone from the industry called him out on it in the NYT—he regressed, saying he was “just quoting what he’d read in an article”.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12policy-t.html

http://lambbeforethyme.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ pollan-ny-times-essay-10-12-08.pdf

The “as if” personality let down its shiny verneer for a split 15 minutes, when Krugman, you know, the Nobel prize winner?, had the audacity to question Obama’s market based health care. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html

His defender’s responses were more anti-Clinton (ho-hum)) than pro-Obama, which said argument now fades into glitter and dust as he HIRES her!http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/hopeful-sig ns-on-health-care/

Apparently, unable to , even as a Nobel Laureate, stand up to the glare of Obama love, Krugman “sortve” recants…“better than I thought”

http://vichydems.blogspot.com/2008/02/paul-krugman- vs-obama-brilliance.html

Why were Krugman, Conyers and others right in the first place on health care? Because the entire world says so. Also, Physicians for Natl Heatlh Care, the entire Congressional Black Caucus, and many others. Everyone except big insurance interests and some greedy doctors.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php

People usually begin a pro-Obama talk with “He’s not perfect, but…”. and later on, may even say, “...but, we need to push him,,,and still later,,,“but not too hard”...it is cognitive dissonanace or push-me pull-you syndronme.

coloradokarl—thanks for the example “our future is in your hands…but dont stress on it”.

Louise—Yes, we should ALL try to avoid interpreting what he says and reading his mind. It may burst the bubble.We should just wait. No point in trying to participate, really, as long as the duopoly is in charge.Yes, I criticized him before. But, I have to admit, I didnt expect this!

Look, this isnt really about Obama, so much as the Dem Party! They just keep selling out! Already, Lieberman, Clinton , Gates, Volker (yes I read up on him—gawd!!), Summers—-be honest—is this what you expected or voted for?

jackpine—It already IS a “dire emergency” for alot of the uS. For those still in the street after Katrina—it has been for a long time. For the soldiers and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan—it already is. For people in GITMO, for those spied upon by FISA, the uSA Patriot Act. Already is.

Birch—If, when Obaama was campaigning he had said, “I just want to work with the power brokers in DC”, do you think he would have had a landslide?

Why should Obama’s AIPAC talk terrify us? And his “forgiveness” of Lieberman? (Anyone who thinks his AIPAC talk was “too easy on Iran…”!!)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/oba ma-confronts.html

I mean, c’mon, Obama ultimately backed Lamont!

Vichy Dems. http://www.counterpunch.org/santina03142008.html

Good cop (Obama); bad cop (Bush)—twas ever thus in our Tweedledee/Tweedledum democracy of sorts —really an military/oligarchy when you think about it.

Obama is a masterful dissembler if not deceiver. His campaign for nomination spewed tons of hot air. All of my friends believed that he would “end the war in Iraq”. Obama had promised nothing of the sort. He promised to “redeploy combat units”* which sort of suggested to my friends that the remaining soldiers would be armed with whistles like the London Bobbies. Obama actually promised a scaled-down but continued and indefinite occupation of Iraq and this snake oil was swallowed by fools as “ending the war”.
The people of Iraq have unmasked Obama’s fraud by fighting hard for the SOFA agreement. There will be no Obama-style occupation after December 31, 2011.

* “Redeploy” means taking troops out of a section of the front and placing them into another segment ready for attack. This is precisely what dissembler Obama had in mind. Take troops out of the front line Iraq and send them to front line Afghanistan to attack.

Once again we see a writer explain another persons mind and motive to us. Awe, the power of the writen word.

And once again we see a handful of anonymous wannabe writers comment, and re-enforce the notion that it is possible to read the future and probe the inner workings of someone else’s mind. Possible because they say so!

And still again, the writer and the wannabe’s tell us all to ignore any thought we might actually see change, because THEY don’t!

And it’s all sorta irrelevant since there is not yet, a 44th president.

Perhaps 44’s “change we can believe in” is presented as opposed to, 40, 41 and 43’s “change we believ