jonr—I have asked that question…unfortunately , the answer seems to be, “Someday soon…incrementally speaking, we will need to, at some time, when the time is right, begin on the path , of possibly transcending all the bad stuff…until then, we will need your support for all things related and unrelated to the aforementioned bad stuff, that, when we get around to it, we wil make nice about and everything might soon, someday, be close to—but it wil take a long time and lots of work—copesetic, but no one is perfect, we have to compromise, we have to reach around—I mean across the aisle, and please take a number, we will get to you when you are dead”.

Doesnt really make sense, does it.

I’d like to make one correction here folks. I don’t believe auto workers on average make $75 an hour in salary alone. I think the $75 that has been thrown around is the average cost per worker hour with all benefits included. Most of us don’t have a good estimate of what we “earn per hour” on that basis.

Oh and a Happy Thanksgiving to you all!

oilnomore—That is probably one of the best ideas I’ve heard, concerning this horrible mess…

Enuf is enuf

Bernard Joseph Rosa, Jr., J.D.
(Unemployed)
Box 1122Sebastopol, CA 95472 707-824-6902
(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
November 25, 2008

Subject: Oil Sector bails out Auto Sector

Dear Senator:

Clearly the US Auto industry is a significant factor in the economy.

An approach offered to remedy that sector of our economy must consider the following:

Oil, as the major beneficiary of the Auto/Transportation industry, is best equipped
To provide the funding of a revitalization, or re-birth of the Auto industry, because of the enormous profits extracted from the consumers of oil over the past 10 years. The taxpayers have already provided the funds necessary and they are in the Oil sectors Coffers, past or future earnings.

Consider that only 4 of the Oil Giants have over $130Billion in Cash/investments as of last year, they can well afford to give something back to help America.

More to the point, is the auto industries stifling of battery technology for electric vehicles, see more on Chevron’s ownership of battery patents acquired from GM in 2001, see this link for more http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry& authorid=51&blogid=104 

Oil industry is should be considered in the same light of public utility.

An Auto oversight board is necessary to help guide the Auto industry into modern fuel efficiencies, as well as alternative fuel sources. In other words, the industry must delivery vehicles that are applicable to the needs of the consumer.

Oil must pay!

Sincerely,

B. Joe Rosa
Joe’s Resume:
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/resumes/bjrosajr/cfocontroller

For those of you who don’t know the Bible, I have
been studying it for more than 30 years.  One of
the signs Jesus gave of his return(I believe it is in Matthew 24) is compared to “birth pains” which
start slowly and grow rapidly as the end grows closer.  According to Bible scholars the United
States would decline and the European Union would
arise and “The Antichrist” would arise out of the
old Roman empire, which many believe to be the European Union.  With all of the turmoil taking
place in the United States with the bailouts and other financial issues, moral depravity, government
and business deceptions, etc., I am afraid the return
of Jesus, like birth pains, is rapidly approaching.
I don’t like being somewhat of a messenger of doom but things are going to get much worse worldwide,
with a possible nuclear war in the middle east.
Please watch my google video titled “osama bin laden
a christian response/expanded edition” in which I
try to warn terrorists and other antichristians of
the approaching war in the middle east. 
things are going to grow worse

Why not have the government buy the stock for these car companies and then offer a venture capital fund for car entrepreneurs? We could invest seed money for at least 30 starter car companies. The assets of the old car companies could be offered to the new domestic car companies. There is plenty of brown field property to get things rolling. Some of these brown fields could go on offer at nominal rates of rent. Also we should put high tariffs on imported cars. The tariffs should be high enough to cause shortages of new cars. This shortage has to hurt. (Early on we should have a strict anti-monopolization policy. Bankrupted car companies can only have their assets used by new entrants into the industry. Barriers to entry should be kept low to ensure good product.)  We must acknowledge that we are a third world country with first world aspirations. We should imitate the Asians with these trade practices. We will need tough standards for these cars as we must manage our consumption of imported petroleum. We need to go on a regime of impost substitution where we can cultivate comparative advantage over absolute advantage in trade. As to our debts, we must consider the greater part of it as odious debt. We should be honest and acknowledge that we are one gigantic Brazil of the 1970’s era. Therefore the debt has to be repudiated. Critical infrastructure property that has been sold to foreign powers at fire sale prices must be nationalized. In fact the key to our problem is to go by the way of economic nationalism, for we do the best for the world, when we do the best for ourselves. International altruism has been used as a ruse for senseless wars to promote “democracy” and “capitalism” as well as suicide by free trade.

By charles robert parker, November 24 at 11:24 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

samosamo——Thanks for the help.

*********
Uh, you’re welcome. In case you missed it the ‘login’ point is in the upper right corner of the page just under the date. You are still commenting as an ‘(Unregistered commenter)

By charles robert parker, November 24 at 12:00 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

This copy&paste;shows that you did not login. Just being registered doesn’t mean you don’t have to login to comment. Also the other 3 or 4 comments at this post made by you are also listed as above,(unregistered commenter).
I have had problems in the past here and tried ‘contacting’ a human for answers but don’t remember getting any.

Don’t want to bust anyone’s bubble, but guess who just interjected her mouth into this fiasco? Pelosi!
Here is the link:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1108/Pelosi_ Not_helping_the_auto_industry_is_not_an_option.html

She does claim to require a ‘thorough’ plan for any moneys given but this is the same traitor to our country that made that cute little speech that killed the first vote on the $750,000,000,000.00 bailout because she did not want the taxpayers to pay for it(we are), that there would be accountability(there is not), that it would require regulations(none)and some other rigamarole that appeared to benefit the taxpayers(actions have spoken louder than words here proving pelosi to be an extremely untrustworthy official of our government, a traitor or at least treasonous and to me a financial terrorist).
So, what we have are all the wrong people making the decisions about our money for their corporate buddies and it will just keep getting worse and worse. I don’t even think that if the transfer of power occurs that things will get better. Obama seems to keep picking the worse people for all the financial positions that will maintain the status quo. Hope I am wrong but I just got this bad feeling…..

I am not certain at all, that we should just deliver the Big Three a check. However, I do think that workers, who collect an hourly wage and pay union dues, are entitled to a little consideration here. They did not make the stupid decisions, and, production is higher than ever.

Fuck ‘em? That may be a little tough for unions to swallow, after we just gave $850 billion to Wall St. The red herring jets, the red herring CEOs salaries—Wall St is all of these things, only worse! Or, at least, just as bad.
Could it be that so many had more to lose in the stock market? Could it be that YOU had something to lose (those that were for the Bailout?) , and , you dont now? Because , I can tell you, that is how it will be taken..
We could “buy them” (like we bascially did the “banks”—except, we could put REGULATIONS in the agreement , like the Dems shouldve insisted on with Wall St.—from what I recall, Sanders, Kucinich, Kaptur and others had plans)) We could seize the CEOS assets and use it to pay workers unemployment, retirement or whatever. We could supply govt benefits (vs privatized retirement and health insurance and school , legacy benefits etc.—because you know that that is what CEOs will cut first…not their salaries) like civilized countries do.
I dont care if you string up the CEOs. But, if the Dems dessert the union workers—-you will have no cause to ask why “joe the whoever” dosent want to vote Dem.

Something like $10 billion/month for Iraq but somehow we get tight with money when it comes to our own Industries.  If this free market crap is so great let Bush/Cheney turn down their pensions and leave it up to the free market to fund them from now on.  If you want to send Bush/Cheney money feel free to do so.

charles robert - capitalism is about accruing capital which, theoretically, in turn will generate social and economic progress benefitting, theoretically, everybody and society as a whole.  Laissez-faire version was Adam Smith’s answer to the stiltifying mercantile system.

As practiced it means unlimited economic power for some (the few) with the necessary consequence of economic powerlessness for others (the many.) Bail-outs are what happen when (the few) see their economic power tanking.  (In a fascist state, among othe conditions large corporations become extensions of governments. With the advent of bail-outs is it possible America is fast becoming a fascist state?)

Since the end of the campaign and the beginning of the transition, ‘hope’ has become a word even vaguer and more apropos of derision. You would think Bill Clinton’s misuse of the vague and derisive word would have completely discredited it in the political context, but Obama Copacabana has taken it to new undreamed of heights of vagueness and derisiveness. It should be more obvious than ever that Obama, whatever his ballyhooed rhetorical abilities, is counting on his advisers to figure out the nuts and bolts of policy making. And given some of the selections so far for Cabinet and other influential positions (the word ‘hope’ is not the only thing Obama recycled from Clinton), that’s not very encouraging for any real hope of even modest social programs,let alone anything so grandiose as a new New Deal. It’s even less encouraging to see self-styled ‘progressives’ and Obama apologists falling into the trap of supporting corporate welfare policies that even some avowed conservatives can’t countenance. It takes some real conceptual legerdemain to turn a massive taxpayer subsidy program for GM - for many decades, the epitome of corporate arrogance and power - into a progressive cause. Unfortunately, however, in a topsy-turvy sort of way, it symbolizes what the whole Obama ‘progressive’ mirage is all about - more hoax than hope. To prop up a crumbling, obsolescent behemoth like GM as a jobs measure is a policy as bankrupt as the company itself. In fact, GM has been busy shedding as many hourly-wage (workers) jobs as it can. Through July 1 of this year, GM has cut, according to its own figures 18,657 hourly workers, most through early retirement or ‘lump sum’ incentive buy-out payments. That represents 25% of its total hourly workforce. Should GM’s management get their greedy paws on $25 billion tax dollars, there’s every reason to believe the public money would be used not to create or even save hourly-worker jobs, but indeed, be used to go on shedding jobs. Managements first obligation is not to its workforce but to its shareholders. And there aren’t enough socialists in congress to change that, and there are even fewer socialists in Team Obama. What might a ‘progressive’ alternative be? Well, as long as we’re dreaming about a new New Deal, why not dream big, rather than letting Obama’s petty politics corrupt progressive ideals. Why not put the whole $25 billion into public mass transit spending? The enviornmental effects alone would be more than worth it. But even strictly as a jobs program it would be far superior. A study done last year by economists Robert Pollin and Heidi Garrett-Peltier, titled, The U.S. Employment Effects of Military and Domestic Spending Priorities, sponsored by IPS and others, made projections of the impact of public spending in different sectors. According to their calculations, $1 billion spent on mass transit would create 19,795 new jobs. That’s more than the number of hourly workers GM has already permanently laid off. In fact, at that rate, $25 billion spent on mass transit would translate into almost half a million new jobs! That’s more than six times the current total remaining hourly workforce at GM. Now that’s “change we can believe in”. “Letting the auto industry collapse or slide into bankruptcy would wreck the” miltary-industrial complex thinking that’s deformed public policy and government spending over the last half century. It would open the way to “put men and women” into work in socially and enviornmentally progressive “enterprises all over the country.” They would join up to 500 million other workers in new types of more benign employment. It would be a democratic (small d) boon to the country - which is why the Obama administration would never stand for it.

PT—Agree. Even though it is more than I ever made with an MS! GM/Delphi is what made Dayton, OH “middle class”. Along with NCR and our former airline industry. NOw, Ohio, most of all its urban areas, are impoverished.It did not always look like Ky. or W. Va. (no offense intended—not the peoples’ fault)

No one I knwe who worked for GM made $75 azn hour. That is bullshit that anti-union busters want you to believe. If we have no middle class, we have no republic.

Yes, lets let them outsource these jobs, and, these, and these…oops! Just got your job!

No, we shouldnt just “bail them out” (although, there is something awfully strange about the Dems reaction to the auto industry vs. Wall St). We should OWN them! Just nationalize the auto industry. Plenty of other countries do. Or , make the CEOS sell all their crap, and use the profits to extend unemployement indefinitely. Most would go to work somewhere else, anyway. Most of them I know have…they “come back out of retirement”.

dihey—why can we not ask Toyota, Volkswagon, etc. to build tanks and such? Are you under the false impression that GM, Fore, etc. are more “
“American” or something?

Hey, people—you “own” part of Wall St now (or, you should)...how would you like to invest in a nice autotmotive corp? You can hire and fire whom you please.

The auto workers mostly make about $57,000 a year.  That’s nothing compared to what incompetent CEOs make.

And do not forget: “we” cannot ask Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, or Hyundai to produce tanks and other military hardware for Obama’s “surge” in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

The Big Three automotives spend $63 billion on employee and retiree health insurance. GM is the largest purchaser of health insurance and presciptions drugs in the US…

If the govt provided these benefits, they would be in a better finanacial position.

I wont even go into private pensions, and, what the taxpayer wil have to make up , when GM starts cutting again..

Unless we just want to open tent cities—I mean, more of them..I think we should (the govt should ) just BUY them.

It sure as hell shouldnt cost $850 billion.

Ultimately, they are going to get bailed out.  Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana would be wiped out without the U.S. auto companies.  Those states are where the auto companies and their suppliers mostly are located.

Backruptcy won’t work because people won’t buy from a bankrupt auto company.  They would fear there might be no service departments or parts available in the future.

In addition, bankruptcy would mean the auto companies wouldn’t have to pay their suppliers all the money they’re owed.  That would force suppliers into backruptcy.

So, there’s going to be a bailout.

Got to post this.  Chrysler, because it is privately owned now, has refused to allow the government, from which it’s asking for money to see its books.

My Master and Doctoral degrees are in Counseling
and Child Development.  I was, still am and will be
more interested in people than money.  Would someone
please answer a question for me?  Is one of the tenets of Capitalism include the Government bailing
out corporations that get themselves into financial
difficulties?  If so, does that include ALL corportations?  Under Capitalism does the Government
bail out individuals?  ALL individuals?  If not,
what criteria is used to determine which corporations
and individuals recieve the “bail-outs?”  I am sure
there are many highly respected university professors
who can answer these questions for me.  Thanks for
your assistance.

I have a modest proposal regarding GM.

GM stock is currently trading for 3 to 5 dollars per share. GM has about 600 million shares of stock. Thus, the market capitalization for GM now is only about two to three billion dollars.

Do we really need to give $25 billion to a company that’s worth only three billion?

Even though I am a libertarian, I would be amused to have the government simply spend $3 billion instead of $25 billion, and just buy the company.

Then, they should turn over management of the company to the UAW. I’m quite serious about this. I believe one of the biggest problems in American business is the “us versus them” mentality between unions and management. Let’s do a little experiment, and make the company actually owned by the union.

Now, you might be assuming that I, as a libertarian, would predict such a company would go bust. Not so! In fact, I think the union, in league with the workers who would now own the company, would do a much better job than the tin-pot executives who are so full of themselves that they have their own “executive washrooms.” Can’t be seen doing your business with one of the proles, you understand. How yucky! Oh yes—and would the union bosses, now in charge of the company, have the temerity to fly to Washington in corporate jets, rather than commercial?

Would they sell the corporate jets on Ebay to raise badly needed cash?

I believe the union and workers could do a pretty good job, when faced with having to pull a company out of the hole on their own. And heck, three billion is a lot less than 25 billion.

Not to worry——the big three will be saved because the alternative is worse.  However, it may be time for the 3 automakers to revise their business plan.  Detroit was alway bloated——too many divisions and too many models.  Do we really need a Buick and a Pontiac?!  They now have to downsize and by eliminating divisions and models they can reduce labor costs by attrition and, of cause, overhead will also be reduced.  Set their design on a few competitive cars and they just might be able to stay in business without further government assistance.

It certainly IS time to make MANAGEMENT pay - particularly Wagoner (and that enabler fool of his, Robert Lutz). It may be a little early to can Mulalley, as he (and Ford) have at least been mouthing good ideas, so government intervention can probably help this company over the hump. Chrysler should be taken off life support - it’s a private firm so let them figure it out for themselves. GM can probably be broken into a couple pieces…creative destruction.

Ultimately, though, giving them a few billion dollars will accomplish absolutely nothing. Two of these three will die anyway. Give the money to the workers - all unemployed workers in the US - in the form of livable unemployment. With a little security, citizens will spread that money around, and the economy will grow the way it always does: from the bottom up.

So you’re saying that these ‘unrependent’ pricks are to be another anchor tied to the taxpayer’s ass just to keep a useless, worthless piece of an industry rolling in the dough while seemingly keeping a significant portion of workers on the payroll. That is a blind just as using a hospital as a weapons labs just because it would not be bombed.
I am tired and I would think that so are a lot of other people of having to cave in and placate an economic system that is GODDAMN terrorist threat to the security of this country. We’re going down the tubes and unscrupulous incompetent ‘business’ people are still coming up with those magic ideas of how to keep THEIR bank accounts from suffering no matter what. Because of these people, I say this country deserves to go down the tubes so maybe, just maybe, the people will get that shock and go after these people and put them out of business for good, take their money away and make them work for their food.

Economist Dean Baker has pointed out: The story is that the big three automakers are struggling with record sales declines. This collapse in car sales in turn is the fallout from the collapse of the Greenspan-Bernanke housing bubble. While the domestic automakers have been hit hardest, all manufacturers have seen sharp drops in sales. Toyota’s sales were down 23.0 percent compared with its year ago levels. Honda’s sales were down 25.2 percent, and Nissan’s sales fell 33.0 percent.

These huge plunges in year over year sales by the world’s top car manufacturers can’t be blamed on the industry. Responsibility for this plunge lies with Henry Paulson and other economic policy makers and their Wall Street friends.

I get what Bill’s saying but I’d appreciate it if the nine global auto makers dropped - if it’s still in the works - their suit against us Californians.  We passed a law requiring auto makers to reduce gas emissions by 30 percent by the model year 2016 and they immediately brought suit against us.

Kind of sticks in the craw when people who’ve spent millions working against you come to you asking for billions to, perhaps, help finance their law suit?

NEWS FLASH…..The “Big Three” are selling some of their SEVEN corporate jets !!
The whole thing (World wide Financial Collapse) reeks of a “Pyramid of Power” control the masses thing to me. Magicians casting illusions of hopeless gloom and doom like fishing nets over the hard working families of our great Nation.
Lets take $25 billion of the Financial “bail out” money and offer low interest, low down payment loans to people who can’t quite make a 700 credit score to buy high M.P.G. cars. This would infuse the cash from the showrooms to the shop floors in Detroit, a ground up approach. If this can’t help an industry whose main business is to sell cars…..Nothing Will !!!

Pelosi’s waxing dingell’ dingle sends a message on who is going to control the auto industry from now on.

Initially, I was leaning against any help for the Detroit car makers, until I watched the UAW press conference.

Then I did a few Google searches on some of the comments made regarding help provided to other automakers.

Has anyone considered the many giveaways that state and local governments have provided to BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and VW to build plants and employ people.

The arithmetic of expenditures and giveaways from various states, comes close to what we are contemplating in loans to Chrysler, Ford, and GM.

Note the irony here, we are making loans to help the Detroit automakers, while we gave land, free of property taxes, and in some cases built the physical plant with state tax dollars to non-Detroit automakers.

Is this not the moral equivalent of a taxpayer bailout to non-domestic companies, who did not need it? Would they not have built a plant in the United States anyway? I say, for a multitude of technical reasons, they would have built plants within the United States eventually with no incentives.

And what are these non-Detroit automakers building in these giveaway states? A Toyota Camry - same specifications as a Ford Fusion (the Fusion now offers a Hybrid too). A Toyota Tundra truck - same specifications as a Chevy Silverado (including MPG). A Honda Civic - same specifications as a Ford Focus. A Mercedes M-Class - same specifications as a Saturn Outlook. According to JD Powers there is basically no difference in the quality surveys among these vehicles, and they sell for similar sticker prices.

If we had given land, plant, and tax benefits like these to Ford or GM would they be having issues today? We will never know now!

Would GM have taken a plant site in Alabama under these favorable terms rather than spend real cash to build one in Mexico? I think they would have selected Alabama.

Would it of hurt any of these states to have high wage, union jobs in their state?

Would not the free taxpayer land and subsidized physical plant construction offset Ford or GM’s $20 per hour wage disadvantage in the final cost of the product?

Again, since the above listed vehicles by the non-Detroit automakers all play in the same price range, the profit margins for the non-Detroit automakers is significantly (and unfairly) higher simply from the savings of the state provided giveaways.

In retrospect, had the state giveaways been made to Chrysler, Ford, or GM, the Detroit automakers would have, on average, provided higher paid citizens, with top of the line benefits, working and spending in these states.

But, perhaps it would have upset the sensibilities of the “Right to Work” (Also known as Fire-Employees-at-Will) mentality that many of these states consider a theology.

Or perhaps these states hate Detroit so much that they would not even consider giving Ford or GM the same taxpayer giveaway options that they served up to the non-Detroit groups (whose executives arrived in similar corporate jets to negotiate with these giveaway states).

The reality is we have in fact given the non-Detroit automakers free taxpayer gifts (high class bailouts), with few, if any strings.

The Detroit automakers want a loan, or maybe two loans, lets level the playing field with the non-Detroit automakers, and give them those loans with strings attached!

Why are we so narrow minded when it comes to these subjects? We can’t look at the auto industry without looking at the oil industry, the advertising industry and the banking industry. GM, Ford, and Chrysler sell gas guzzling SUVs, Hummers, Vans, etc. because the oil industry profits by selling more oil and gasoline. The gas guzzlers are sold through advertising to the American desire for more and bigger. If they now want money because no one can afford the gasoline or can’t get a loan from a bank, then they should get the money from the subsidies the taxpayers give to the oil industry or from the giveaway that the banks just got from the taxpayers. BTW, what the banks got should not be called a “bailout” but a “handout” because they are nothing but Wall Street Welfare Queens.

If they go under we will loose 1 in 10 jobs…

Looks to me like Bush and Paulson are definately working to make things worse, reserving the bail out money for favored corporations only, and none to help the people…

Rush Limbaugh has declared it the Obama recession, is there a clue here?

This whole thing is starting to feel like corporate extortion for some reason…

Any government bailout should come with a few seats on the board, and a cut of all future profits. It should also include final approval of all product launches and R&D;.

If we the people are expected to save failing businesses for the good of the nation, we should at least profit from our efforts.

After all, we are not communists, are we?

Has it occurred to anyone that the Big Three have been outsourcing jobs to other countries since the 80s, thus putting American taxpayers out of work, and are now asking for a bailout from American taxpayers?