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Morning Again in America

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Posted on Nov 4, 2008
Obama
AP photo / Morry Gash

President-elect Barack Obama smiles as he gives his acceptance speech at Grant Park in Chicago on Tuesday night.

By Robert Scheer

It’s time to gush! Later for the analysis of all the hard choices faced by our next president, Barack Obama, but for now, let’s just thrill, unabashedly, to the sound of those words. Heck, both he and we deserve a honeymoon, at least for a few paragraphs of this column.

It is “Morning Again in America,” to reclaim and revise the slogan from the 1984 campaign of President Ronald Reagan, only this time the promise of an American renewal is in the hands of a moderate post-Cold War leader who embraces, rather than denies, the diversity and complexity of the modern world. It is difficult to imagine Obama ever asserting the arrogant jingoism that has come to mark Republican stewardship of this nation in the eyes of the world.

How refreshing for Americans to have elected a leader who was among the first to reject the imperial hubris that led this nation to invade Iraq over the objection of most of our allies. A leader who had the courage in the midst of a hotly contested primary election campaign to refuse to play the inveterate hawk in order to qualify as commander in chief, and instead had the audacity to advocate efforts at dialogue even with those we despise. The dead hand of Joe Lieberman has been lifted from the party that he betrayed. It is hoped it is also the end of the road for the neoconservatives who had rallied around John McCain as their last best hope for establishing a Pax Americana.

On the all-important domestic front, with our economy crumbling, it is reassuring that the man whom what’s-her-name from Alaska derided as a “community organizer” does indeed have that background. It is not a guarantee that he will be mindful of those suffering most in this economic downturn as he turns to deal with the banking mess, but it is a start.

The Reagan Revolution of rampant deregulation of the economy in the interest of big business is over. Not because Obama has anything to do with the “socialist” label that the Republicans attempted to stick on him, but rather because a decisive role for the federal government is at the heart of the Bush bailout and the vastly expanded military economy a President Obama will inherit.

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Big government is now officially a partial owner of big banks, and although we might bemoan that state of affairs, our collective credit card has already been swiped. The pressing issue is: What do we taxpayers get in return for bailing out Wall Street? Will the goal be to make the financial swindlers whole at the expense of ordinary homeowners? Or will it be the reverse of what the Bush administration has been doing? What is not in doubt, after the banking meltdown, is that the state will play a decisive role in the economy; what must be decided is: Whose interests will it serve?

If Obama turns to the Wall Street Democrats like Robert Rubin, the Clinton-era treasury secretary who led the crusade for deregulation, then he will betray his own fervently expressed concern for the fate of ordinary folks. The change we need is a divorce from the financial moguls who have dominated both parties. That’s what progressive politics is all about.

We have a chance to move in that direction, thanks to the election of Obama. Not because the man himself is the second coming—he, like all politicians, will have to be watched—but because of the movement he created around his candidacy, which I believe will hold him accountable.

The word of his victory came as I was making a brave effort to try to teach my large class at the University of Southern California, and from the cheering of students throughout our building as Obama reached the Electoral College delegate number needed to become president, you would have thought USC was just picked No. 1 in the BCS poll. Make no mistake about it, this is a victory of these students’ generation—a generation that is no longer mired in the divisiveness and arrogance that had come to dominate the lives of their elders.

Politics will never be the same. The fat cats and back-office politicos are out, and grass roots—youthful and Internet-connected—will dominate in the future, as they did on Tuesday. President-elect Obama knows that, and, at least on this night, I fully expect him to be true to those who took him on this journey.

It is a night also to remember the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the man who did so much to make that journey possible, along with the other heroes of the civil rights movement like John Lewis and Jesse Jackson, who did so much to keep hope alive.

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, November 12, 2008 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

I always visit your sites Paracelsus.  I try to give absolute personal regard.

Frankly, I don’t think the pyre was hot enough for Broun!

In the old 2006 interview, Rahm Emanuel was talking about some sort of general public glorified ROTC training.  Seems to smack of reactive Israeli mentality.  The Obama clip was much too short but the quick gist of it was a public trained quasi-military force.  I don’t know if I agree with that.  I’d say no on the face of it.  But if at all, if there is any real reason for it, and I tend to think not, it ought to be elective and not mandatory.  It certainly would be a group under the auspices of Homeland Security?  I would not elect to be trained this way.  It is a dialogue however that needs discussion instead of flagrant reaction.

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By Paracelsus, November 12, 2008 at 9:09 am Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous
@ FENWICK

Did you click on the audio link?

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=e4qG6UIr8z

From Obama and Emanuel’s mouths to your ears.
I think Broun got a lot of heat to change his mind.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, November 12, 2008 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

And the fringe will inherit the earth.  Man oh man.  The deep end is full of swill.  Alex Jones site is about as fermented as a toddy.  The only real wars on are in the Middle East, Africa, and in Jones’ own mind.  What a crock!  Get a grip.  Jones loves to portray the Angry Man.  Knows better than anybody.  He knows crap with conspiracy theories coming out of his padupa.  Y’all don’t be fooled by this latter-day fool.  Give anybody a camera and they are a filmaker!  Investigative journalist, my padupa!  No wonder, though, he was born in the mindless state of Texass.

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By Shenonymous, November 12, 2008 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

Paracelsus, you are too quick to pounce. Lawmaker sorry about Obama slam By Julia Malone, Cox Washington Bureau, Wednesday, November 12, 2008, Washington —- U.S. Rep. Paul Broun of Georgia backed away Tuesday from comparing the policies of President-elect Barack Obama to those of Hitler or a Marxist dictator.  After stirring a controversy that was grabbing national attention, the Republican lawmaker from Athens apologized for making such references.

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By Paracelsus, November 12, 2008 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

You’ll Have to do 50 Jumping Jacks

I saw an article by AP quoting Broun on the coming Obama Administration. He said that it would be fascist or Marxist type government we would have to worry about. Broun was raked over the coals in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

Recently the transition website for Obama, change.gov, mentioned required civil service for 18 - 25 year old adults. Also there was a “call” for service from the elderly. These ideas have since been scrubbed, but not before internet surfers were able to take image shots of before and after pics of the website. The popular media has called those who are alarmed over the plan crackpots.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/obamas-civil-defense-program-resembles-domestic-draft.html

The above has an audio link of an interview of Rahm Emmanuel speaking on mandatory civil service for young adults. He tells us not to worry; it is all part of a circle of love. I say, “Worry!!”

Biden, Powell, and other gargoyles have spoken of future disasters where a civil service will be needed. If a disaster could be pulled off with the most beneficial results, it would have to be in the Midwest as it is dire need of urban renewal.

I think it is contemptible that these politicians speak so confidently of some future calamity, and that they will need a civilian security corps to work as a supplement to the military.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Teddy Roosevelt lost one of his sons in WWI and the tough-guy “Rough Rider” was so unable to handle it he went into a depression and died 6 months later.

Taft is the only man to hold the two highest offices: President of the United States and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.  Amazingly, he was totally undistinguished at both jobs.

Wilson’s “health” breakdown as President wasn’t his first. The same thing happened after he lost a political battle with the the Dean of the law school at Princeton when he was President of that university.  He was a virulent racist who, despite being a historian, thought “Birth of a Nation” was historically accurate.

Harding got caught boffing a maid in a closet in the White House.

Silent Cal Coolidge was told by a woman “Oh, Mr. President. I bet my friend I could get you to say 3 words”  Coolidge’s response? “You lose!”

Hoover was an avid fisherman and was the first President to try massive government spending programs to stimulate the economy-setting precedents for FDR.

FDR and 5th cousin TR were both Secretary of the Navy.  Eleanor was related to both. TR was her uncle and FDR was a distant cousin (4th, I think).  I’ve MET my third cousins, but that was 40 years ago…

Truman took a 20 minute nap every day, stripping down to his skivvies and sleeping for ... exactly 20 minutes.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

There’s a “Millard Fillmore Society” dedicated to our least-known and least-renowned President.

James Buchanan, “Old Buck” was not only one of the two WORST Presidents prior to Dubya (Tyler was the other—and both made even Harding and Nixon look good) was our first Gay President (and no, being Gay and being the worst aren’t connected).

Lincoln, when called “Two-faced” said “If I had two faces do you think I’d wear THIS one???”

Andrew Johnson had probably the smallest and most innocuous obituary of any President ever.

Grant’s wife was cross-eyed and he insisted he loved her that way.  At Vicksburg, being a siege, he was bored and drunk most of the time.

Hayes was elected by the most contentious election ever, even more than the 2000 debacle. However, he promised if elected he wouldn’t run for re-election and kept his promise.

Garfield was elected from the Senate, a feat shared only by Harding, Kennedy, and now, Obama.  Eerily, all 3 died in office, two by assassination.  Time to break a trend!

Chester A. Arthur was the only President to graduate from Union College in Schenectady, NY.

I promised I won’t respond to Cann4ting’s tangents and silliness and I won’t.

Benjamin Harrison is the only President to be the grandson of another President.

Cleveland’s shot at a third term was destroyed by the Illinois governor, John Peter Altgeld, a German immigrant.  Cleveland sent federal troops in to break up the Pullman Strike over Altgeld’s objections so he sabotaged Cleveland in Illinois and at the Democratic Convention, held, obviously, in Chicago.  Altgeld pardoned 3 of the Haymarket Bombers for insufficient evidence and lost his chair for it.

McKinley’s wife, Ida, was the only physically dis-abled First Lady.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

She:

When I saw “Pierce” I said “Uh-oh—it’s Barbara that’s related to Pierce, not Poppy”  And Pierce is one of the lowest ranked Presidents—being good-looking seems to have been his one asset.

Not only did JQ Adams skinny-dip in the Potomac, someone stole his clothes once and he had to ask a passing boy to get him more.  Imagine confronting the President of the United States on the bank of the Potomac, with the President being buck-naked!

Taft had to have a special tub installed because he was so obese. For Third Party fans: The 1912 election featured a 3rd party so successful (the Progressive Party—“Bull Moose”) it came in SECOND, beating the Republicans.

Other interesting facts: George Washington married Martha for her money, her superior social position, and her personal ability to charm people in society. He didn’t love her.  HOWEVER: It is my personal belief that her powerful intelligence, sound judgment, and total devotion and loyalty to him caused him to love her more deeply than he ever imagined. They wrote to each other constantly and historians lost a priceless treasure trove when she burned the letters after his death…at his request.

During Adams’ Presidency Washington negotiated to be a military commander with more power than today’s SecDef.  It didn’t come through—he backed away but he would have effectively been a military dictator—after his Presidency.

JQ Adams served in the House after he was President.

Van Buren’s knickname was Old Knickerbocker, or O.K.—one of the possible sources of “Okay”.

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By KDelphi, November 11, 2008 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

AND! PE Obama is related to Dick Cheney historically (Lynne Cheney said it) . Coincidence? I think not!

And his mother was from K-ansas and his father from K-enya—coincidence?

And Dick Cheney gave the veterans address today—it certainly wasnt because he is so concerned about them—exceppt for his Halliburton dollars (euros?)Did PE Obama have a hand in it??

Bush seemed relieved today when he spoke—about what?

They are all in it together—like on South Park (well, I didnt see the whole thing—is that how it turned out?)

Actually, I think thateney and Bush (got a medal!!!??) were a disgrqace today, as always.

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By Maani, November 11, 2008 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing:

Thank you for your exegesis of trial law.  Had you not provided it, I was considering doing so, since I agree that ITW seems to be a tad…ignorant in that regard.

Peace.

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By cann4ing, November 11, 2008 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 8:04 pm #

Lawyers are advocates, not scientists. They are not interested in truth but in WINNING, and that means you MUST ignore evidence the destroys your position.
__________________________

Just shows how little you know about the practice of law.  A lawyer is an advocate.  An attorney will arrange a set of facts most favorable to the argument he or she wishes to present, stress favorable facts but legal ethics bars any effort to deceive a court as to the facts or the law.

A competent lawyer strives to ascertain an inconvenient truth, for a failure to confront that truth pre-trial could prove devastating if it comes from the other side at trial.  Indeed, it is the existence of adverse facts, in addition to the risks and costs of litigation, that leads the good lawyer to advise a client to settle.

Also, Johnny Cochran did not “prove” that OJ was innocent.  His client was “presumed innocent” and the burden was on the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  The incompetence of the prosecution, more so than the efforts of the OJ “Dream Team” are what erected sufficient doubt so that, in the mind of the jury, but not you or I, there was a reasonable doubt as to his guilt.  Being acquitted and being innocent are not one and the same.

In Hunt v Liberty Lobby, however, Lane was required to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the Marchetti claim of Hunt’s involvement in the JFK assassination was true.  He did to the satisfaction of the jury, and, if you possessed an open mind (questionable) and took the time to read “Plausible Denial” with a eye toward weighing the evidence recounted by Lane, you would reach the same conclusion. 

Finally, I agree with those who note the JFK assassination is off-topic but that historically occurs at TD as threads age.  In this instance I noted a debate amongst you and several others re JFK; thought I would add some facts to dispel myths.

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By Maani, November 11, 2008 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

Okay, children; if we’re going down this road:

http://www.littleknownfactsshow.com/presidents.html

http://funpresidentialfacts.net/

http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=4670

Now you know everything!  LOL.

Peace.

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By leilah, November 11, 2008 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment

Ooops!  It was Franklin Pierce.  “Did you know that George Herbert Walker Bush was related to Franklin Pierce,...”
by mariage.  Barbara Bush is the blood relative.

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By leilah, November 11, 2008 at 3:53 pm Link to this comment

“Did you know that George Herbert Walker Bush was related to Benedict Arnold,...”
by mariage.  Barbara Bush is the blood relative.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

Hey ITW:
Love it, love it, love it, and I don’t mean Lyle Lovett.  Your fact orts are great.  Let’s see if we can round them out a bit: 

John Quincy Adams used to get up two hours before sunrise to go skinny dipping in the Potomac River.

Franklin Pierce was arrested for running over a woman while driving his carriage in Washington, DC. The charges were later dropped.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s mother forced him to wear dress until he was five years old.

Did you know that George Herbert Walker Bush was related to Benedict Arnold, Marilyn Monroe, Winston Churchill, Presidents Franklin Pierce, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and Gerald Ford.

Naw, I wouldn’t want to have a passel of sticky flies either.  I don’t know what mom was thinking.  Unless you wanted to kill all of them at one time. 

The Bushites might as well wheelbarrow it all away!  It is going to be worthless in a little while anyway.  Gad, is that a piece pessimism or what?  I can’t believe I really said that.  Must be euphoria over the election.

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By leilah, November 11, 2008 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

Yes, and Al Capone said, “You can get more with a hardy handshake and a gun than you can with just a hardy handshake.”

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By Folktruther, November 11, 2008 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment

It didn’t take long, did it Fenwick, for Johnson’s prediction to be fulfilled.  In the meantime the Bushites, with Dem acquiescence, are stealing all they can.  In plain sight.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, November 11 at 11:18 am

Yawn….

More important things to do.

****************************************

Yeah… Did you know James Garfield could write Greek with one hand and Latin with the other—at the same time? And Garfield the cat was named for him? 

Or that James Polk was the only Speaker of the House to become President—and kept EVERY ONE of his campaign promises? And is considered by historians to be the best president nobody knows?

How about that Teddy Roosevelt, the ultra-religious, had “In God We Trust” taken OFF the money because it was sacrilegious? It was “Sinful” to put God’s name on something used for sin, ie, money.  Right for the wrong reasons, but still right.

How about that it’s Harry S Truman, not Harry S. Truman?  The S wasn’t an initial, it was his middle name.

And Eleanor Roosevelt was the tallest First Lady, 1/2” taller than Michelle Obama?

Oh: Before the Civil War started, US Grant owned slaves but Robert E. Lee had emancipated all of his.

Mom:  You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

To which I reply: But why would I want a flock of sticky flies?

Hey, if we go on tangents let’s go on some new fun ones!

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By Dave, November 11, 2008 at 1:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is amazing how partisan this article is.  As a conservative I will support Obama when he does what is best for the country and question him when he takes the other side.  This is unlike many on the left who have some type of sickness that does not allow them to see through there own party, and recognize when things are done right.  Pun intended.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

Yawn….

More important things to do.

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By Maani, November 11, 2008 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous:

“You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.”  To borrow a scientific axiom, “For every adage there is an equal and opposite adage.”  In this case, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease.”  LOL.

Re “Hijacking is not necessarily by one person, Maani. Hmmm, the hijacking of the airplanes on 9/11 is recent evidence of that.”

Do you REALLY want to open that can of worms with ME - an early and vocal member of the 9/11 Truth movement?  LOL.

Peace.

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

There is an old adage, “to make any changes you have to assimilate into the culture.” In Greek, “Like to Like.” Mom:  You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.  Hmmmm, guess I didn’t learn Mom’s lesson.  Oh gosh.  I’ll sweeten up.

Now, I’m bored.

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

In dry weather, salt is a necessary ingredient for life.  Grass is good for the hoppers.  Television is the opiate of the people.  You go on the those better-than-mainstream-at-least programs and make them tell the truth!  Got tell the trooth.  I dare you.

There is an old adage, “to make any changes you have to assimilate into the culture.”  In Greek, “Like to Like.”  Mom:  You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.  Hmmmm, guess I didn’t learn Mom’s lesson.  Oh gosh.  I’ll sweeten up.

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous

This should be hashed out on programs like Frontline or Democracy Now.

Yes, let’s leave it to the experts, the establishment priests. They see all, and they know all. As Zbigniew Bryz. once said all of our opinions will be received from the previous day’s anointed media experts. We won’t have any factual basis for it except that Will Lyman droned it into our ears on Frontline. Amy Goodman said it was so. It is safe and sociable to go by their lights. No sense in being thought a kook or a conspiracy theorist when foundation media can give us safe borders for us to mill about in. Baa! Baa! More grass! More salt lick!

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Folkman, if there was a coverup of the Kennedy assassination, that happened 45 years ago, that is a long time for any theory to percolate to expose the truth.  Most of the principles are dead.  It doesn’t do anybody any good to keep “secrets.”  While I cannot say there was or was not a coverup, as it really happened before my cognizance of politics and world affairs, seems to me, even if there is a ton of evidence, then this forum is not the place to sort it out as none of you have any extant pieces of the evidence and it is all theoretical projection.  This should be hashed out on programs like Frontline or Democracy Now. 

I don’t think the so-called ‘secret’ violence of the American power system (a trope to be sure) is getting worse than it has always been.  And thank goodness American imperialism is decaying.  It needs to vanish completely down the toilet from whence it came.  The world is changing and it is a natural thing to happen.  We need not complain but celebrate!  For then we Americans are in the world not sitting on top of it.

I have no opposition to truths.  I see none yet!  Make it real and I will believe.


Yabutt, butt, Paracelsus, my off-topic is so benign!  Levity instead of gravity.  My motto!

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

@ She

Yabutt, butt, Truman played the piano and Margaret sang!

LOL. You are calling me off-topic? In sum I do not expect great things from Obama. Past is prologue.

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By Folktruther, November 11, 2008 at 10:27 am Link to this comment

The reason that the posts of Parcelsus, Maani and cann4ing are relevant is that they document that it is evening in America, not morning.  That the secret violence of the American power system is getting worse, with the 9/11-anthrax mass murder following the covered up assassinations.  US imperialism is decaying, like the US power system.

Shenonymous, with all due respect, your conclusions don’t seem to follow from your assumptions.  If you think the Kennedy assassination is so important, and I partially agree with you, than it follows that you would want its coverup exposed.  And there are an enourmous number of investigaters who have uncovered a ton of evidence against the offical explanations.

Of course this evidence and reasoning are contrary to the Educated truths, and thus are the ‘Conspiracy Theory’ that is used to help the learned and mass media repress them.  Your opposition to truths that subvert the mainstream truth is quite common among the Educated, and is instumental in covering them up. 

But I still enjoy your truths: they’re always so original and soothing.

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

Yabutt, butt, Truman played the piano and Margaret sang!

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 10:18 am Link to this comment

Truman, whatever you think about him, apparently did not engage in kinky murder as you inauthentically claim JFK did.

If you will reread my posts I never claimed that JFK committed a sex murder.

As to Truman I would say he was the kinkiest. He initiated the prequels to the patriot acts. He incinerated civilians without attempting to end the war in the Pacific through diplomacy. He was a monkey; he was a maniac. He had the type of temper that reminds me of McCain.

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 10:08 am Link to this comment

Hijacking is not necessarily by one person, Maani. Hmmm, the hijacking of the airplanes on 9/11 is recent evidence of that.  If you wish to side bar side with Paracelsus that too is your prerogative.  But is it an aside to the content of this forum.  It is kind of without practical import to become defensive about what is obvious.  Expanding the discussion is appropriate if it is in the direction of the topic.  Bringing in a separate and different subject is “hijacking” and high jinx.  It is recognized how you gents love to be superglued together.  Better to argue for yourself Maani than for someone else.  Who, we think, is quite capable of their own defense.  Maybe not.

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

I disagree.  I think Gerry Ford, despite the pardon, was the right President for the time.

And Jimmy Carter’s vision of the world from every direction has proven prophetic, and, sadly, correct. Had Democrats supported their President, Ronald Reagan might never have come to office.

Bill Clinton, had he kept his pants zipped, would have gone down in history as one of the truly GREAT Presidents.

I will begin with Bill Clinton first. It was under Bill Clinton, the worst trade treaties possible were passed. NAFTA caused the first wave of factory relocations in the rust belt. The normalization of trade treaty with China was the final coup de grace. I blame a large part of the troubles of today’s Michigan on Clinton’s trade policies. Under Clinton we had those awful liberalizations of the law for banking institutions. Mortgage securitization began in earnest under Clinton. Under Clinton we had the WTC trial run in ‘93. Under Clinton, innocent women and children were killed in an unconstitutional show of force at Waco. Under Clinton, large swathes of Slavic land were irreparably salted with uranium waste. Under Clinton Countless Iraqi children starved to death from his embargo. Now we have Obama promising us change with the same wolf pack from Clinton.

Next we will look at Carter. Under Carter we had a continuation of the Timorese genocide. He was our first Democratic austerity president. The Great Society program were starved. His administration began operations in Central America against independent governments. His defense department came up with human pesticide in the form of the neutron bomb. Some aren’t sure whether it was meant for a foreign enemy or a domestic enemy, the American people. He backed down from reform after the Cinco de Mayo assassination plot. He gave a bloody Polish jackal the opportunity to make his bones with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. A war was manufactured in Khyber just when detente was starting to show promise. I remember the feeling of peace being possible in the world with the USSR, and then that crazy Polack did his own version of shock and awe. After reading the Economic Hitman, I realized the situation in Iran stunk as well. Carter then began his foreign trips to third world hot spots after his term was over. I feel he was a Koolaid salesman to Aristide in Haiti.

Then we have Jerry Ford. I think of him as a clay pigeon so that Nelson Rockefeller could get a line of sight on the Presidency. Unlucky for Nelson that Squeaky was such a bad shot. Jerry Ford and Kissinger gave the go ahead to the Indonesians to invade East Timor. Yes, I am picky. I don’t forget a thing.

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By Maani, November 11, 2008 at 9:59 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous:

You say, “Your retort Paracelsus is vacant.  Of course you have to power to seize the forum with your constant ill-appropriate posts about the assassination and its incumbent horror story about the prostitute, which is really only hearsay as no proof exists.”

Making no moral or other judgment on Paracelsus’ comments, you are smarter than this.  One cannot “hijack” a forum: if other people respond to what YOU (and possibly others) feel are “inappropriate” posts, then that means other people are interested in engaging in that line of discussion.  This is not “hijacking,” it is at best expanding the discussion, and at worst creating a “sidebar” discussion.

If everyone felt as you do, and simply ignored Paracelsus - not responding to his posts - then he could hardly be accused of “hijacking” anything, since the discussion would continue on the original topic.

Apparently, tangential or not, Paracelsus’ comments have created a sidebar discussion in which a number of others seem to be interested.

Peace.

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

Your retort Paracelsus is vacant.  Of course you have to power to seize the forum with your constant ill-appropriate posts about the assassination and its incumbent horror story about the prostitute, which is really only hearsay as no proof exists.  And of course you would think it appropriate.  You would contradict yourself if you didn’t.  You just like saying that kind of thing, obviously.  It is rank and prurient at its base.  Now since when is Gore Vidal an expert to be believed utterly?  While I have a great respect for Vidal, I do not hold him as the paragon of truthtelling.  All writers have their ‘agenda.’  One must always read with a critical eye, meaning mind.  Truman, whatever you think about him, apparently did not engage in kinky murder as you inauthentically claim JFK did.

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By KDelphi, November 11, 2008 at 9:28 am Link to this comment

I agree that the forum has gone off topic with the JFK assaassination plot talk.But it is a very long thread, and getting older—maybe Obama only talk has moved on.

I only typed in what I believed to be a very “strange” inclusion. I didnt understand how a person could KNOW such a thing (even Vidal), and, I still do not. I was merely describing what would have been intended by it (from what I know—it is a sexual disorder, because it is harmful to people)if it happened. It is pretty repulsive. But, that doesnt mean that people cannot talk about it. Might be wrong thread.

Truly, I find the title “Morning in America” offensive , on its own, as it obviously refers to Reagan. If Dems keep referring to his reign as though it is something to be emulated, they will lose alot of progressives.

ITW—I agree with alot of what you said. I have said before that , I dont think that JFK could hold a candle to RFK, MLKJ, or, LBJ , IF he had not been handed the Vietnam War. Many people think that we only had minor involvement before LBJ, and it is not true. LBJ escalated it. But, his proposed programs (many of which he never got to, due to the war)on poverty, medical care for all, public/social service projects, plus,his strong support for civil rights (no small peanuts, from a guy from Texas!) couldve have meant another FDR.In signing the VRA, he stated that he feared he was handing over the Deep South to the gOP for his lifetime. It turned out to be true. But, some people nowadays say that LBJ shoudl NOT be given credit, ONLY MLKJ—that is nonsense. Sure, LBJ had some racism in him—he was from the Deep South. But he tried to DO the right thing. He was unnattractive and a bully. But, in actions and intent, better than most.

JFK was a conservative, mediocre president , who invaded Cuba, cut taxes for the rich,and was “sainted” because he was beautiful and died young. He wasnt a BAD president—no more so than the ones we have had since.He may have been able to be a great presiddent—but we will never know.

RFK—now he would have been a very great president. He, unlike his brother, put himself out there.But, most people may not be aware of how sick JFK was—

Cant agree on Ford—but we’ve had worse.For a GOP. Actually, in terms of what is called “conservative” and “progressive” nowadays, Nixon would be , at the very least, a moderate, maybe even liberal on such issues as the environment.

I do not see his “secret plan to get out of Nam” (which turned out to be false) to be that much different than PE Obama’s implication (during the primary, certainly)that he woudl “get us out of Iraq” to be that much different. When Obama spoke at the Dem Convention, I thought he had a great future. Then, I heard him after he got the nomination and , I thought, sounds like Nixon. I was not referring to Watergate, but to his repeatedly strong desire to ‘reach across the aisle”. We are so “right of center” now,we need to be “bipartisan” after we restore justice.We have mmiels to go just to get to where we were before Reagan.

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By Paracelsus, November 11, 2008 at 9:24 am Link to this comment

You have hijacked this forum and it is moot who killed John Kennedy or how or why.  There are questions that will never be answered regardless of armchair speculation.  Speaking without any evidence or proof, regardless of how hidden it is, never gives credence to theory, and in this case only attains to hypothesis.

I don’t have the power to hijack a forum.

My post stands that the content of the discussion about John Kennedy here is (1) inappropriate.  Piggy-backing on this particular forum is lame. and (2) has content that is re[p]ulsive.

I think it is very appropriate given that Obama has chosen a list of possible appointees that has a full retinue of establishment gargoyles. Gore Vidal’s comment on JFK’s repulsiveness sex life was meant to show the arrogance and carelessness of those who would rule over us. I could have referred to Truman’s rage fits as another sign of the unhinged qualities of those who would minister over us. He had a horrible temper, which made him malleable for such disasters as the implementation of a national security state(unconstitutional). The Korean War would have never been necessary if had not been Dean Acheson’s role as that era’s April Gillespie. He said that Korea lay outside the sphere of American influence. Truman was led down the primrose path on that. There was of course the dropping of the A bombs on Japan. I don’t think any of this is irrelevant. Obama’s foreign policy team has the makings for another blood letting. JFK had tried to reverse the trend of imperial American policy. He tried to issue money without the interest charges of the Fed. He warned us of secret societies. He tried administrate with some degree of independence and he was killed for it. We have had abject puppets in place ever since.

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By Tony Wicher, November 11, 2008 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 6:07 pm #

They’ve already turned on Obama for picking Emmanuel as his COS.
——————————————————————————
ITW,

I myself have expressed concern about Rahm Emmanuel because of his reputation as a Zionist hawk. I am opposed to U.S. hegemonism and militarism, and the U.S.-Israel alliance is at the very heart of U.S. imperialism. If you don’t like bullies, the U.S. and Israel have been the bullies of the world for decades. I want us to go back to being a peaceful democracy, and an Israel/Palestine agreement is the key to peace in the Middle East. Now it may be that a hardheaded Jewish hawk is the right choice to negotiate with Israel because Israelis will trust him even when he tells them to make the major concessions necessary for a just and lasting peace. We shall see how the negotiations go.

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By Tony Wicher, November 11, 2008 at 9:08 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 6:07 pm #

They’ve already turned on Obama for picking Emmanuel as his COS.
——————————————————————————-
ITW,

I myself have expressed concern about the choice of Rahm Emmanuel because of his reputation as a Zionist hawk. That is because I want to end U.S. hegemonism and militarism in the Middle East and the U.S.-Israel alliance in its current form is at the heart of it. If you don’t like bullies, well, the U.S. has obviously been the bully of the world for many years, and Israel has been our greatest ally in this bullying of the weak. It may be that Rahm Emmanuel as a Zionist hawk is just the right choice to deal with Israel because Israelis will trust him even if he forces them to make the major concessions absolutely necessary to bring about a just peace. I’m reserving judgment until I see how the peace negotiations go.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous, November 11 at 4:11 am #

So interesting Paracelsus that you have such a clear crystal ball!  Bad is in the eye of the beholder.  And all bad is a statement of degree.

You have hijacked this forum and it is moot who killed John Kennedy or how or why.  There are questions that will never be answered regardless of armchair speculation.  Speaking without any evidence or proof, regardless of how hidden it is, never gives credence to theory, and in this case only attains to hypothesis.

My post stands that the content of the discussion about John Kennedy here is (1) inappropriate.  Piggy-backing on this particular forum is lame. and (2) has content that is revulsive.
****************************************

MEA CULPA!  She, you are right.  I, for one, apologize and won’t comment off-topic on this thread again.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 11, 2008 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

Paracelsus, November 11 at 12:46 am #

@ Shenonymous

It is quite incredible that this article that celebrates Barack Obama’s historic election has been commandeered by those who would degrade that celebration and take up a 45-year old piss-in-the-wind debate about the John F. Kennedy assassination.

The JFK assassination marks a point in American history, when every President that came after Kennedy has been notably bad. The trend has been prominent and well determined. Given such a record of unfortunate events, I do not foresee Obama as bucking this trend. Odds don’t favor it. This nation’s prospects will improve only when we realize that government had been permanently hijacked on November 22, 1963. We have been living under an occupation government ever since. In the past the two parties had some limited independence, but after Nov. 22 the parameters of what was possible for the American people had been seriously limited. The leash had been severely tightened so that the American animal, the public, the politicians, knew a harder tyranny than what came before. The assassination served notice to politicians that they dared not go off the reservation.
**********************************************

I disagree.  I think Gerry Ford, despite the pardon, was the right President for the time.

And Jimmy Carter’s vision of the world from every direction has proven prophetic, and, sadly, correct. Had Democrats supported their President, Ronald Reagan might never have come to office.

Bill Clinton, had he kept his pants zipped, would have gone down in history as one of the truly GREAT Presidents.

Sure, you can find nits to pick on all off them.  And JFK, who, despite being inspirational was, at best, a mediocre President who, with his murder, was elevated to sainthood. It was only having a little brother with more brains and balls than he had that JFK looked at all competent.  Remember: JFK wanted to put civil rights on the back burner—it was “inconvenient”.  Bobby took the lead on THAT one.  And justifiably got the credit.

Had he not left Lyndon Johnson Viet Nam, LBJ would be remembered as the 60’s FDR.

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By Shenonymous, November 11, 2008 at 5:11 am Link to this comment

So interesting Paracelsus that you have such a clear crystal ball!  Bad is in the eye of the beholder.  And all bad is a statement of degree. 

You have hijacked this forum and it is moot who killed John Kennedy or how or why.  There are questions that will never be answered regardless of armchair speculation.  Speaking without any evidence or proof, regardless of how hidden it is, never gives credence to theory, and in this case only attains to hypothesis.

My post stands that the content of the discussion about John Kennedy here is (1) inappropriate.  Piggy-backing on this particular forum is lame. and (2) has content that is revulsive.

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By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 10:47 pm Link to this comment

I didn’t read Lane’s last book, Cann4ing, but I heard him discuss it in Berkeley in the 1990’s.  Your account is quite accurate and much fuller than I remember.  Someone asked him about his difficulty in publishing Rush and he responded as you reported.

Maani, that is the first time I have heard that there was evidence that the elements of the Secret Service were involved.  That would make Johnson’s implication more plausable, since he would boss it after the assassination.

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By Paracelsus, November 10, 2008 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

@ Shenonymous

It is quite incredible that this article that celebrates Barack Obama’s historic election has been commandeered by those who would degrade that celebration and take up a 45-year old piss-in-the-wind debate about the John F. Kennedy assassination.

The JFK assassination marks a point in American history, when every President that came after Kennedy has been notably bad. The trend has been prominent and well determined. Given such a record of unfortunate events, I do not foresee Obama as bucking this trend. Odds don’t favor it. This nation’s prospects will improve only when we realize that government had been permanently hijacked on November 22, 1963. We have been living under an occupation government ever since. In the past the two parties had some limited independence, but after Nov. 22 the parameters of what was possible for the American people had been seriously limited. The leash had been severely tightened so that the American animal, the public, the politicians, knew a harder tyranny than what came before. The assassination served notice to politicians that they dared not go off the reservation.

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By Paracelsus, November 10, 2008 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment

Errata

Of course this controversy is filled with accusations of self-loathing toward those Jews who argue that the Israeli government had acted with malice toward Berber Jews.

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By Paracelsus, November 10, 2008 at 10:07 pm Link to this comment

Look at Ihherit for example.  He characterizes me as an anti-Semitic bigot although he knows I and my wife are Jewish and, as I have mentioned, my grandparents were killed by the Nazis.  It doesn’t matter, that is the Aipac way.

I am sorry about your grandparents. I have heard some horrific stories from survivors. This New World Order has been sharpening its tools on people for a long time. I feel such movies as the Saw “X takes 1 to N” series and the Hostel “Y takes 1 to N” seem to be some sort preparation for what is to come.

As for Rahm Emmanuel, I cringe at the elite self serving Jews who imperil the working class Jews with their perfidies. I recall in my research of Cohen and Grigsby, a legal firm that handles outsourcing labor through visas by gaming the system, that their top talent in that area was Jewish. It bothered me that I may be victimized by angry anti-Jewish unemployed Americans for the actions of a fellow Jew, who placed his loyalties to himself and not to his countrymen. Just as many black folks get embarrassed by a prominent member of their race for acting ghetto. I know this is an area of discussion that is little spoken of. 


Finklestein, whose parents were killed by the Nazi’s was attacked as anti-Semitic, fired from his university job, and refused entrance to Isreael, even though he is a soft Zionist.  Sleazoids in the Zionist influence media will always actack truthers who tell the dirty truth, and I think this will increase as the US power system decays.  The future of the Dem party, in my opinion, is the poisonous drivel of Cyrena, for example, similar to the Gop drivel.  Which is more dangerous since she is smarter than Inherit.

I have heard of Finkelstein and I have also heard of Israel Shahak. One topic that seems to be a point of raging controversy in Israel is that of the Ringworm Children. I heard little about it in the States. Here are
some links:

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2007/03/ringworm_hoax.html

http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/10/ringworm-myth-projects-mizrahi-jews-as.html

http://www.strategytalk.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=67658&sid=beba0c639bdc210fb4b3da5a32009a60

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/3998.htm

Of course this controversy is filled accusation of self loathing toward those Jews who argue that the Israeli government had acted with malice toward Berber Jews.

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By Shenonymous, November 10, 2008 at 9:39 pm Link to this comment

It is quite incredible that this article that celebrates Barack Obama’s historic election has been commandeered by those who would degrade that celebration and take up a 45-year old piss-in-the-wind debate about the John F. Kennedy assassination.  Giving the details of the most disgusting accusations that it makes me sick.  Even if what happened did in fact happen, this is not the forum to vet it out. But that aside since it doesn’t seem to matter to those so engaged, the prurient sensationalism of it shows the kind of titillation that seems to be needed by some of the male denizens of this forum.  The denigration of women is also evident in this expose-style argument. It makes me wonder what is really the motivation. To take the moment of glory away from Obama first comes to mind.  Second to mind is revealed in the truly adolescent lasciviousness expressed.  These guys ought to get a real life. 

Then the other perennial debate about anti-Semitism that rages on almost every forum these characters show up.  Amazing that they cannot get enough of that either.  That one ought to be put away in the dresser drawer for the duration.

A large crack in the racist armor that ruled the minds of much of America has been made by the election of Barack Obama and that it is a sure sign that a change in the society happened without anyone noticing it. That is usually how social changes come to be recognized, it happens while no one is really looking.  Once that crack was made, however, it without a doubt opens up the future to the broad possibility of race or ethnic group not ever again being a factor in choosing the leaders of this country.  The Ohioan judge with a just and splendid mind is a hero.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2008 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment

Cann4ting:
You know darn well I can’t prove a negative.  No one can.

Lawyers are advocates, not scientists. They are not interested in truth but in WINNING, and that means you MUST ignore evidence the destroys your position.

Scientists, OTOH, must subvert their position, their POV to facts and the logical threads that bind them.  It is the hardest thing in the world to cast out your deeply held concept when you stumble on the one, single fact that blows it apart. I’m not a scientist, but I’ve been there.

Have I offended you as a lawyer? Too bad!  Johnny Cochran “proved” O.J.Simpson wasn’t guilty.  Actually, he didn’t—he didn’t have to—he just had to cast doubt on the proof of the prosecution’s case.  But it is blatantly clear that Simpson did kill his ex-wife and her friend.  I don’t condemn Cochran—his job wasn’t to find the truth but to provide his client the best defense, which he brilliantly did.  That’s what lawyers, good lawyers do.  But they aren’t scientists and should never be confused with scientists.

Now PBS is putting out propaganda? Riiiiigggghhhhttttt!  That, my friend is slander and I say back to you…Prove it!

On that note I’ll leave you to your fantasy.  Nothing will convince you.

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By cann4ing, November 10, 2008 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

ITW—If you are referring to the propaganda piece put on by Nova on PBS—seen it—not convinced by it as it ignored key evidence exposed by Mark Lane in “Plausible Denial.” 

Like myself, Lane is an attorney.  Attorneys are trained to evaluate “evidence” and present that evidence in a court of law, which is precisely what Lane did in the case of Hunt vs. Liberty Lobby where Lane defended Hunt’s libel action not on the higher standard of proof required to prove malice in a publication pertaining to a public figure but on the truth of the Marchetti claim that Hunt was involved in the JFK assassination.

Lane’s blistering cross-examination destroyed Hunt’s claim he was in DC at the time of the assassination.  Marita Lorenz directly implicated not only Hunt but Frank Sturgis, Orlando Bosch and the CIA, and Hunt eventually “confessed” on his death bed.  (The individuals named by Lorenz were directly connected to the CIA and to the Bay of Pigs invasion).

On Feb. 6, 1985 a Florida federal jury rendered its verdict, finding for the defendant Liberty Lobby.  Although jury foreperson Leslie Armstrong, when approached by the press after the reading of the verdict, made it clear that the jury was convinced that the CIA had killed President Kennedy and that Hunt was a part of it, a reporter pressed Armstrong about “actual malice” being a part of a libel case.  Armstrong noted, per the judge’s instructions, actual malice is always a part of every libel case, but here the jury did not need to reach the issue because they were convinced that the Marchetti article was true.
 
That evening, a Miami television station, owned by the Washington Post and Newsweek, reported only Armstrong’s remark about actual malice being an essential element of a libel case.  Testimony and a jury verdict which should have been banner headlines, screaming across the front pages of every newspaper in the United States was treated by the corporate-owned media as a non-event, as has Lane’s exposé of the manner in which the CIA had successfully subverted both the Warren Commission proceedings and the subsequent investigation of both the Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr.  assassinations by the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

You say Lane was wrong.  Prove it with “facts”!

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By Maani, November 10, 2008 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

Re the JFK assassination, there are three FACTS that make it clear that there was a conspiracy involved - and that it HAD to include the Secret Service and/or the military.

First, in the early morning edition of The Dallas Morning News on 11/21, a photo on the front page showed the motorcade route - and it did NOT include the two turns: toward the TSBD, and then the sharp turn that caused the limo to slow down.  Yet in the late morning edition, the photo was blacked out - meaning that the route change was made at the last minute so quickly that the newspaper did not have time to publish the “revised” route.  Note that only the Secret Service can change the route of a presidential motorcade.

Second, by Secret Service regulation, a presidential motorcade is not permitted to travel at less than 15 mph.  As well, if there is any question that the motorcade is under attack, the driver is supposed to hightail it out of there toot suite.  Yet the sharp turn into Dealey Plaza caused the motorcade to slow to under 10 mph - and when the first shot was fired, the driver actually SLOWED the car down, rather than racing away.

Third, Secret Service regulations REQUIRE a military presence along a presidential motorcade route (this can be the National Guard or regular military).  Yet sometime on 11/21, the military was told to “stand down” from the motorcade route.  And if you look at the existing films and photos along the route, you will notice that there is not a single military personnel.  Only the Secret Service or the military can give such a “stand-down” order.

Neither Cubans nor the Mafia nor any other alleged “player” in the assassination could carry out these three things.  ONLY the Secret Service and/or the military can do so.

Finally, if you have not seen the following video, you should.  It shows the head of the Secret Service detail waving off an agent from the back of the presidential limo.  You will notice that the limo has places on the back bumper for agents to stand behind the president and whoever is sitting next to him.  This is SOP.  Yet the agent assigned to stand behind JFK was told NOT to - and can be seen throwing up his hands in a “What’s going on?” gesture.  Note that had he been in his proper place, it would have been HE who took the shot, and not JFK - who would probably have survived.  (The video has a narration, so turn on your speakers):

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8

Peace.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2008 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment

Cann4ting:
Have you VIEWED the NOVA study on the assassination? Have you read “Case Closed”? 
Or do you simply reject anything WITHOUT REVIEW that contradicts the outlandish theories?

Nobody denies that, at best, the Warren Commission was incompetent, at worst, trying to push the country past the murder by simply explaining it as a lonecrazy killer, avoiding big questions.

The science was wrong, but the first conclusion, that Oswald acted alone (in the act of shooting the President) eventually was proven correct.  The REAL question to ask is why Oswald killed Kennedy, and why Oswald was allowed to travel to Russia and Cuba (more than once) when William Worthy, a journalist, lost his passport for one visit to Cuba.

Start there and you might well find a real criminal conspiracy.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2008 at 7:07 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher, November 10 at 3:46 pm #

RE Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 1:17 pm #

It’s perfectly plausible for an avid neo-Marxist like Volk to be anti-semitic, hating that must fundamental concept: That Israel is the homeland.
——————————————————————————
ITW,

Just out of curiosity, do you regard Israel as your homeland? If so, why not the U.S.A. where you were born and raised and live? Why should any other American Jew feel that way?
**************************************

Tony, that’s beneath you. 

I’m American but like Americans of backgrounds from Italy and China and Germany and India and Ireland I feel the tug of another land where they share a common culture I know and am familiar with.  I hope I must never face the choice Italian-Americans, German-Americans and Japanese-Americans faced in 1941, or, worse, where Marlene Dietrich was forced to abandon her homeland and work AGAINST it—to walk around America with her German accent as the image of the German fraulein—all while working to destroy the nazis.

Further, “Israel” as a concept has been part of Jewish services for at least 2000 years, in the Haggadah for the Seder, in the Yom Kippur services, in the weekly Sabbath service.

Furthermore, Tony, most of those nationalities I mentioned did not face extermination in one part of the world, and rejection from the REST of the world.  There is only one place in the world where a Jew can be 100% certain he/she is welcome.  I love America, I treasure her. I worship our Constitution as near-divine.  But I KNOW that sooner or later the Volk-types will turn on me and mine solely for being a Jew.  It’s happened to me as a child, and as a young adult.  Here, at TD, Jew-haters sometimes border on neo-nazi insanity, quoting (remember?) the forged Ben Franklin statement (forged by the Germans in the 30’s).  It can happen anywhere.

They’ve already turned on Obama for picking Emmanuel as his COS.

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By cann4ing, November 10, 2008 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment

One more observation in light of H.R. Haldeman’s story of how Richard Helms reacted to Nixon’s Bay of Pigs reference and Ford’s role on the Warren Commission.

Gerald Ford was an obscure Michigan congressman with an undistinguished record until Nixon designated Ford as his vice president, a designation that took place in the wake of the scandal-driven Spiro Agnew resignation and which occurred at the height of the breaking Watergate scandal.  Many have speculated that Nixon held out the carrot of the presidency in order to secure a promise for the presidential pardon that promptly followed Nixon’s resignation.  However, if Haldeman’s assessment is accurate, if the ever-conniving Nixon knew enough about the CIA’s role in the Kennedy assassination to threaten Helms, then it also seems likely that Nixon would have been aware of Ford’s FBI connections while Ford served on the Warren Commission—knowledge that would have allowed Nixon to hold out Ford’s illegal funneling of secret information to DeLoach as the stick that would ensure the pardon.

Just a thought.  Doubt we’ll ever know for sure.

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2008 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

Should blacks think of Africa as their homeland? I hope not - they have roots there, which is fine, but this country is their home now. Why should Jews think any differently?

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By cann4ing, November 10, 2008 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, November 10 at 2:43 pm #

The Warren Commission, Inherit, was probably the biggest piece of fraudulent political theater ever mannaged by a power structure…
______________________________

Lane’s basic thesis is that the CIA killed JFK because Kennedy, in the wake of the Bay of Pigs disaster, had planned to dismantle the CIA following an expected 1964 electoral victory; had issued National Security Action memorandum 263 on Oct. 2, 1963 containing a blueprint for a total withdrawal from Vietnam and that JFK intended re-establish relations with Cuba.  Kennedy’s intent to dismantle the CIA was confirmed by Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, the Joint Chief’s head of special operations 1955-1963 and is supported by Kennedy’s firing of Allen Dulles the Director of Central Intelligence, Deputy Director Charles Cabell and Richard Bissell, Deputy Director of Plans, and by the issuance of National Security Action memoranda which would have eliminated the CIA’s ability to initiate operations which required anything beyond the use of handguns.

Curiously, the fired Allen Dulles received a key position on the Warren Commission.  The FBI’s man was Gerald Ford.

The Warren Commission refused to allow Lane to appear as counsel for Lee Harvey Oswald and conducted its hearings in secret.  Its minutes were classified as top secret.

Lane formed a citizens committee to investigate the assassination, but its investigators were harassed and arrested in Dallas.  A FOIA request years later revealed that their phones had been tapped by the FBI. 

Virtually every publisher in the US refused to print Rush to Judgment.  Years later, Lane learned that the FBI and CIA had exerted pressure not to publish dissenting views on the assassination.  After it was published in England, the FBI directed Holt, Rinehart not to publish it in the U.S.  The British publisher declined the FBI’s directive.

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2008 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

RE Inherit The Wind, November 10 at 1:17 pm #

It’s perfectly plausible for an avid neo-Marxist like Volk to be anti-semitic, hating that must fundamental concept: That Israel is the homeland.
——————————————————————————
ITW,

Just out of curiosity, do you regard Israel as your homeland? If so, why not the U.S.A. where you were born and raised and live? Why should any other American Jew feel that way?

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By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment

The Warren Commission, Inherit, was probably the biggest piece of fraudulent political theater ever mannaged by a power structure, at least until 9/11.
It was certainly bigger than the Dryfus Affair. 

The Warren Commission never discussed whether or not Oswald shot Kennedy, it was ASSUMED via Hoover’s FBI report. That was the basis for Bertrand Russell commissioning a committee of notables in Europe who got Mark Lane’s book published, forwarded by the noted British historian Taylor. Mark Lane was hired by Oswald’s mother to defend him.

None of this of course was published in the American media, which is why dupes like you still believe the offical truth, and are proud to do it.  You could have your own parade, Inherit.  Boob Pride.  But Jews have tended to get mindless and braindead since the establishment of Israel.  Jewish nationalism, you know.  And it is reflected in the reluctance to deviate from the offical truth.

But I don’t mind you considering me anti-Semitic for supporting the Palestinians, as Aipac does.  Americans will gradually understand that this is just sleaze to keep them from thinking, like Conspiracy Theory.  And sooner or later Americans will understand that they are going to war for Israel’s Likud Zionist strategy, and Muslims and Arabs are YOUR enemy, not theirs. Or mine.

Unfortunately this historical farce is being played out with blood.  but the worst aspect is that many American Jews have become restricted in their political thinking and support the Aipac policies of
of the US and, to a lesser extent, Europe.  And Bush has just handed off the Zionist baton to Obama-Biden.

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By KDelphi, November 10, 2008 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment

ITW—I do not know who killed JFK, nor how.The “Oswald only” theory just doesnt seem that plausible. But, as we can see, there are many other theories. I just dont know.

Folk—I am not so much saying that people do not do these despicable things—-just that I do not know how people would know ! I mean, did they watch? I know it wasnt to drown her, if it happened—it is “autoerotic asphyxiation”—it cuts off oxygen to the brain to give a more powerfuo orgasm. I do not know about the vagina spasming…gawd.

I just cannot imagine that , if anyone was going to do this, that they would let people watch. Unless the woman said it. The aides and secret service must have been loyal to a fault to let a woman almost die…and it does happen.

But you are correct—it doesnt necessarily discount the rest of the article. But, you know, its pretty suspect, if you ask me.

Tony—I am not an economist either, but, I dont think that it takes one to see that ours is tanking. Others are too, but, ours the worst (and the least regulated). Krugaman and others (and he is a capitalist) say that it was due to regulation lifted by Glass-Stiegel, Grahmm’s bill, and others. It would go along way if we could just get the markets regulated back to the way they were before Reagan took office.

Look, people, if it is working so well, why do we have to keep bailing it out. it does not work. Until the US will accept this, we will never have any level of secure prosperity.

The countries that produce a higher standard of living for most of their people are much more highly regulated.It really comes down to whether you want to protec the market or the peoel. Because unless you are invested in teh stock mkt. its “needs” are in direct opposition to the peoples.

And the tuling classes have done an excellent job of convincing you taht you cannot be “free’ without it. That is so much bs.

But, I have no “faith ” in the markets. I think ath the marksets are man made bullshit.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 10, 2008 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

What you have demanded, ITW, is that everyone accept the official theory advanced by the Warren Commission as the premise of any further scientific/historical inquiry.  You cannot engage in scientific inquiry by demanding acceptance, as fact, of that which does not withstand scientific scrutiny.
***************************************

Cann4ting, I never said anything of the sort.  The Warren Commission got both Oswald’s motives and THE SCIENCE wrong.  That science has since been corrected and, from both photographic evidence from 1963 and from NOVA’s report it’s clear that a clear shot from Oswald’s perch was NOT blocked by any trees.  I remember the 1963 post-assassination foto vividly, of a car where the limo was, sighted through the gunsight.

Second, the medical reports in NO WAY indicated a front head shot, but, rather a rear entrance wound.  When the doctors were asked to review the evidence decades later, they came to the same conclusion—small entrance hole in the back of the head.  The video of his head jerking BACK is perfectly normal when a BIG hole in front acts like a jet nozzle.  It’s been documented again and again.  The first shot through JFK’s back resulted in a well-documented spasm that jerks the arms up—and the Zapruder film shows that as well.

Like I said, all the evidence of anything but Oswald killing JFK is CRAP!

But the conspiracy buffs can’t deal with that.  Yet WHY was Oswald there has never been answered.  Was there a conspiracy to have LHO kill JFK? Unlike the killing itself I see nothing to rule THAT out. Yet in suspect after suspect, the motive makes little sense.

Funny how Volk calls me every name he can think of but resents being labeled what he is: Anti-semitic.  That’s not the same as being a Nazi—many non-nazis are anti-semitic.  Many Jews as well.  My own grandfather was rabidly anti-semitic, and HIS father had been very devout.  But, then again, my grandfather had been a Menshevik.  It’s perfectly plausible for an avid neo-Marxist like Volk to be anti-semitic, hating that must fundamental concept: That Israel is the homeland. I’ll bet even if the Palestinians and the Israelis make a just, strong, lasting peace, Volk will stay in the “destroy Israel, it’s racist” business.

Notice how every damn thread always comes back to:
1) Conspiracy theories that can’t be proven.
2) How much so many TD’rs hate Israel, and (ultimately) all Jews under the rubric of “Zionism”.

This is supposed to be how Barack Obama is a beacon of hope for Americans and the world after the dismal 8 years of the despicable George W. Bush….

He is a beacon.

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By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, I read this story too about Kennedy’s sexual habits and, as I reember, it was by Gore Vidal, a reliable source.  The purpose was not to drown the woman but, as Paracelsus says, to get her to spasm.  An aide was indeed supposed to be present.

This is all too kinky for me but, then, I never understood how soldiers could rape women and then kill them.  Sex as a form of aggression.  But whether or not it actually happened, it was written in one of Gore’s essay’s, as I remember, so it certainly does not discredit Paracelsus’s other reports.  Some of which is also reported by reliable truthers.

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By cann4ing, November 10, 2008 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Here’s another interesting point from “Plausible Denial”:

The evidence placing Oswald at the Soviet embassy in Mexico city consisted of a tape recording and a photograph, which was given to the FBI by the CIA just hours “before” the assassination.

When an FBI agent showed it to Marguerite Oswald she initially told him she did not recognize the man in the photo.  After her son was murdered, she said it was Jack Ruby.

The CIA refused to permit the photo shown to the Warren Commission until it had been altered to eliminate all background.  It was not Ruby.  But it wasn’t Oswald either. 

The FBI agents were presented with the tape [of Oswald’s alleged conversation with Comrad Constantine] shortly after interrogating the real Oswald in Dallas and were of the opinion that the voice on the tape was not Oswald.

David Atlee Phillips testified before the select committee that the Oswald tape had been destroyed three weeks before the assassination.  Yet a tape was turned over the FBI after the assassination.

George De Mohrenschildt was the CIA contract agent who brought Oswald from New Orleans to Dallas and arranged the job at the Texas School Book Depository.  De Mohrenschildt had previously been charged by the FBI of being a Nazi spy.

As noted in an earlier post, Phillips admitted during a 1977 debate with Lane that Oswald never visited the Soviet embassy in Mexico City.  So why the ruse?

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By cann4ing, November 10, 2008 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, November 9 at 5:11 pm #

I won’t accept any conspiracy theory as even worthy of review until it accepts as a basic fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Texas Book Depository and fired the shots the killed JFK and wounded Gov. Connelly—the ONLY shots fired.
________________________

What you have demanded, ITW, is that everyone accept the official theory advanced by the Warren Commission as the premise of any further scientific/historical inquiry.  You cannot engage in scientific inquiry by demanding acceptance, as fact, of that which does not withstand scientific scrutiny.

Setting aside the scientific evidence, my own visit to the site where the head shot is marked on the street by an “X”, the tree blocking the view from the 6th Floor window, the physician’s report from Parkland Memorial indicating an entrance wound in the forehead making the fence behind the grassy knoll the most likely site, there are these from “Plausible Denial.”

Jean Hill stated that the shot had come from behind the wooden fence at the top of the grassy knoll.

Tip O’Neil, who had resisted the creation of the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1968 said in a 1987 book, Man of the House, that during a dinner with Kenny O’Donnell in Boston, O’Donnell told him he heard two shots from behind the fence; that the FBI told him it could not have happened that way, so he changed his testimony before the Warren commission.  Dave Powers, who was also present, has the same memory of the shots.

A 12/17/63 memo details items Gerald Ford passed to Cartha D. DeLoach, assistant FBI director, thus illegally passing on secret info from the commission.  Ford reported to DeLoach that two commission members had serious doubts that the president had been shot from the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository but he predicted they could be brought to the FBI’s view.

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2008 at 12:11 pm Link to this comment

By KDelphi, November 10 at 10:27 am #


Tony—I would not disagree with anythign you say. I might prefer a more regulated economy, but, if Obama Team could do all you are suggesting, it will indeed be “mornign in america”.
——————————————————————————-
KDelphi,

It seems to me that there can be too much or too little regulation, and that the art of governance we need is to find and maintain the balance where the benefits to society as a whole are maximized. Finding and maintaining that dynamic balance is not easy. It makes some sense to me to have the government take over the insurance and banking sectors of the economy altogether, and allow the free market to function elsewhere in the economy. But I can’t really say. I’m a philosopher, not an economist.

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By Folktruther, November 10, 2008 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

That’s ome background you have, Paracelsus.  Most people do not have the example of a corrupt, exploitive and oppressive power structure as a model for understanding power.  Conseaquently most people are naive and gullible as I was and still tend to be.

However, I disagree that truthers will not be attacked successfully for telling what Michael Parenti calls the DIRTY TRUTH; that truth that subverts the mainstream truth of power.

Look at Ihherit for example.  He characterizes me as an anti-Semitic bigot although he knows I and my wife are Jewish and, as I have mentioned, my grandparents were killed by the Nazis.  It doesn’t matter, that is the Aipac way.

Finklestein, whose parents were killed by the Nazi’s was attacked as anti-Semitic, fired from his university job, and refused entrance to Isreael, even though he is a soft Zionist.  Sleazoids in the Zionist influence media will always actack truthers who tell the dirty truth, and I think this will increase as the US power system decays.  The future of the Dem party, in my opinion, is the poisonous drivel of Cyrena, for example, similar to the Gop drivel.  Which is more dangerous since she is smarter than Inherit.

But as the reality based truth is realized by the population, people are becoming more resistent to the bipartisan sleaze.  That is a major historical reason why the uncovering of the historical murders by the American power system is so important.  Initiatlly they will scare people, but over time more and more people will come to realize the despotism of American power covered by the codewords of Freedom and Democracy.

And the murders, the overflowing prisons, the torture, and the class inequality that drives them and makes them essential will begin to penetrate the American ideology that disguises and diverts attention away from them.  The American power system is terminally ill, and when it collapses the population must have some idea of what is to succeed it historically.

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By KDelphi, November 10, 2008 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Tony—I would not disagree with anythign you say. I might prefer a more regulated economy, but, if Obama Team could do all you are suggesting, it will indeed be “mornign in america”. Hey, can we get another “slogan”—or none at al?? This one reminds me of Reagan.

“I read two articles in the NYT yestereday, as I am sure others did.

David Brooks and Paul Krugman—they actually give very different versions, of what the US should be, not so noticeable at first glance.

I could expound, but I am sure plenty of people will. I would like to say that, conservatives (like Brooks) are speaking from a positon of “being trounced” and fear (of “socialism”? EU thinks we are crazy to be so paranoid about it). He wants the Obama Team to go slow, because he doesnt really want them to do anything at all. He would not be saying it if McCain had won. They never said it to Dubya

Krugman speaks form a position of wanting to renew the country. He speaks form a place that knows that the uS needs another FDR, not another Reagan.

It will be up to PE Obama whether his legacy wil be one of Reaganomics or FDR. I think that , despite neo-cons “fears”—we have nothing to fear but fear itself. If you are “afraid”, in some free-floating way—you wanted McCain

Dont listen to them.”

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By KDelphi, November 10, 2008 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

OK—you guys had me interested , and curious, until I read, “JFK strangled a woman in the bathtub, until her vagina convulsed…”.

This is the kind of statement that makes people scream “conspiracy theory nuts”.

How would anyone know? From the girl (was she under l8—“girl”?) ? Did aides just “watch”? I dunno, I’d have to see something on that one…

I know that JFK screwed around enought to make Clinton look like a saint.But unles it is illegal (strangling someone or in a n airport bathroom) I just really dont care. I think prostitution should be legal anyway.

Saying tha 9/11, Anthrax, JFK assasination may have been inside jobs , is not the same as theories involving every former president’s's sexual perverson, etc. and it only serves to make people—like me—think, “Aw, cmon…!”

Could be wrong—dont think so.

Something doesnt fit about the mainstream JFK story—everyone agrees, I think. The 2004 election was certainly “stolen”, if nothign else, because they caged people and they did not vote. I saw it, right here in this county.

I am going to look up the book mentined on JFK.

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By Tony Wicher, November 10, 2008 at 11:05 am Link to this comment

The Obama transition team has put up a suggestion box at http://change.gov/page/content/americanmoment
Everyone who has any positive, constructive ideas should post them there. Here is my first post.

I envision a country that is united, peaceful, prosperous and the hope of all mankind. The history of the United States has a bright side and a dark side. The bright side is the freedom and democracy for which the world has always looked up to us, The dark side is our history of imperialism and racism. With the election of Obama,  the better angels of our nature have prevailed. It is time to eschew imperialism and hegemonic policies and become a true peacemaker in the world. We must be internationalist, not imperialist. We must strengthen and abide by international law, not act as though the United States were above international law, which is what the Bush administration has done. We must join the World Court and abide by its decisions, even if that means turning over Bush and Cheney for trial as war criminals, which I would like to see. This would establish firmly the principle that no country, including the U.S., can defy international law. It would be the first good thing Bush and Cheney ever did; it would be just and it would make up for the eight years of hell to which they have subjected this country and the world. I also want a full investigation of EVERYTHING that went on during the Bush administration, particularly the activities of Richard Cheney and that super-secret back office which forged evidence of non-existent Iraqi WMD, outed Valerie Plame and tried to hang the anthrax on Saddam even though the anthrax came from our own laboratories. I’m telling you, I don’t think this was done by a “lone nut”. I think the Cheney black ops people did it as part of their intention to create enough hysteria to declare martial law, stage a coup and establish a military dictatorship. I think it very likely that they gave bin Laden inside help on 9-11. I can’t prove this, but I don’t trust the 9-11 Commission or anything else that went on during the Bush Administration, and I want a special prosecutor appointed to head an investigation that stops nowhere and answers all questions. Without such an investigation, we cannot be the transparent and open democracy that we need to be. 

I would like to see the common-sense regulation of the financial sector restored and updated.  I think the idea of making a government-subsidized medical insurance program available to everybody who wants one with premiums based on one’s ability to pay is a great one. Let private insurance companies compete with the public one, if they can. Poor people would not have to pay anything. Well-to-do people who can afford private insurance could keep their present policies. In the end private insurance companies might be driven out of business, but to that I say: good riddance!

Clean renewable energy independence is a key objective. This country needs something like a 10-year Apollo-type project that we can all believe in and work towards. Obama is proposing to invest 15 billion a year over 10 years. The money for this should come out of the 10 billion a month we are spending in Iraq. Just 1 and a half months of what we are spending on that stupid, criminal war is equivalent to a whole year of investment in energy independence.

Just as Michelle said, this is the first time in my life I am really proud of being an American. I am so glad to have someone in the White House who is listening. I will do anything and everything I can to help. If someone in the Obama Administration will read this and get back to me - a real person - I will be thrilled to work together with you in any way I can.

Thanks for all you do.

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By Skruff, November 10, 2008 at 6:43 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Sodium, November 9 at 10:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)


“As a result of Obama’s historic triumph,two fundamental trends will evolve:”

Dangerous and occasionally disheartening to attempt predictions.

As a very young man I did a similar prediction after the election of Jack Kennedy. Who saw 11/22/63 coming?

So his presidency left us a legacy of our only Catholic president, the Twentith Century’s most conservative Supreme Court justice, a failed war in Vietnam, and an aging tarnished flag on the moon which the Chinese will probably remove when they land there next year.

Even though I was a supporter of John McCain, I wish Obama better…. but I am not betting on it.

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By Sodium, November 9, 2008 at 11:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:The Obamian Quality and an American Act of Greatness…

As a result of Obama’s historic triumph,two fundamental trends will evolve:

(1)Future elections for the Presidency of the U.S.will embody a great deal of pluralism in a well pronounced and visible way,unseen so in the past. Obama and his team of dedicated supporters have initiated it in such a spectacular manner,against all
odds.It was a great performance from start to finish.
It has been done through what I wish to call:
“THE OBAMIAN QUALITY”,meaning that,only through the
demeanors of Barack Obama and his talented skill in
oratory,his historic triumph was possible.

(2)The future heavy-weight nominations for the Presidency of the U.S.will NOT be confined to those who are white and descendent of the Anglo-Saxon blood
line,although the majority is still “White”.From now
on,the field will be wide open for those who have the
“THE OBAMIAN QUALITY”,supported by a team parallel to
the dedication and endurance of the Obamian team in the 2008 Presidential election.

I,for one,do not believe in such a thing called the
conspiracy theory.I do believe,however,in what I call
“THE THEORY OF TRENDS”.The two trends outlined above are part of that theory.The two trends may have a third and fourth and fifth trends etc…like a rolling snowball,becoming bigger and bigger.What has happened in the financial institutions is a solid proof for the soundness of “THE THEORY OF TRENDS”:The
financial collapse has started with Fannie May and
Freddie Mac and the trend rolled over to AGI,Lehman
brothers etc…It looks like a contiguous disease or
a snowball….Therefore,I dare say that my children and my grand-children may witness the election of not only an African American for the Presidency of the U.S.but also a Native American or a Jewish American of the quality of Naom Chomsky,or an Arab American of the quality of Ralph Nader or a Latino American of the quality of Bill Richardson or an Indian American of the Quality of Mahatma Gandhi,or and or etc…

Although the election of an African American for the Presidency of the U.S.in the 2008 election is significant and historic,at the same time,it has carried with it an act of American greatness which had occurred in Ohio during the election campaigns:

In order to encourage all American citizens in Ohio to vote,an Ohioan judge,with a just and splendid mind
had ruled that HOMELESS PEOPLE MIGHT USE A PARK BENCH
AS THEIR ADDRESS FOR REGISTRATION TO VOTE.(Check page
34 of Time magazine of the issue dated November 17 of
2008).That is the greatness of America when it cares
profoundly for the plight of its poor,the poorest of the poor and homeless.That is the true measure of its greatness,not its military might.It is fine to be military strong for its own defense,but not to build
up a financially corrupting empire and occupy foreign and sovereign countries through illegal and immoral war like the one in Iraq.That is NOT the America I have learned to admire,but the fraudulent America run
by the war criminals and the hubris of the neocons
who should all be brought to justice,or at least be held accountable to their evil deeds in Iraq and elsewhere…

In short,the election of an African American for the
Presidency of the U.S. is another proof that America,
for better or worse,for good or evil,has the capacity and resilience to renew itself.Let us hope that the nightmare of the past eight years is over and a new American renewal is about to emerge for the betterment of the American people and for the common good of the humankind.Who knows?

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 10:45 pm Link to this comment

@ leilah

There is a lot of research to keep up with. The website that is most devoted to the JFK assassination plot has to be http://www.blackopradio.com. I go back to it from time to time.

As to 9-11, the film 9-11 Eyewitness shows incontrovertible evidence that the towers were blown up by explosive planted into the building before the planes hit. The film uses soundboard analysis to show the different sound signatures of explosives.

As to Amy Goodman, she put me into high rage when she visited the fake Indian, Winston Churchill, at exactly the same time as Dr. Steven Jones was being pushed out of BU for publishing a paper disputing the pancake theory of 9-11. Here we have one professor disputing 9-11 on scientific grounds, while another engages in academic bomb throwing by calling the workers at WTC a bunch of Adolf Eichmans, who somehow deserved their fate. One professor who provides unemotional scientific reasoning on 9-11 has his plight ignored by the MSM liberal outfit of Democracy Now, while the other prof is deified and lionized as a martyr figure for the Indian movement. Salt Lake City was within driving distance of Denver. Both profs were facing discharge over controversy. The very stoicism of Dr. Jones in comparison to Ward Churchill could not fail arouse my sympathies all the more. The mewling of Churchill to Goodman over his imagined persecutions magnified the tragedy. The disparity was shameful. This was not Amy Goodman’s proudest hour.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2008 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, November 9 at 8:15 pm #


Inherit’s know nothing attitude was common after the John Kennedy assassination…..

............
The problem with Inherit is somewhat different though.  The Israeli Mossad is involved to a greater or lesser extent in some of these crimes- notably the Mossad High Fivers celebrating the plane crashes in the park- and he identifies with apartheid Israel. So his approach to all such matters is principled ignorance.

So he won’t look at the evidence or reasoning for fear of discrediting Zionism.  The standard Zionist response to adverse evidence is censorship and smearing the truthers, and this will increase as the American people realize how their policies have been hijacked by Zionism.
**********************************

You should do comedy…I can’t keep a straight face reading your fantasy nonsense.

Ever hear of PBS’s “NOVA”?  They DID the definitive analysis of the assassination.  And destroyed ALL the myths about what happened that day.

So believe what you want. Just like folks who believe in invisible deities, or that aliens landed in NM in the late 40s’, or alien abductions.

Folktales, is there anything since 1900 that’s bad that Jews AREN’T responsible for??? (according to your insanity, of course)  BTW—that’s a pretty good definition of an ANTI-SEMITE BIGOT!

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

Paracelus, Cann4ling, you really know a lot about the relations among the assassintions and false flag operations.  I’ve always felt that this was a point that could be emphasized more, the overall view of illegal violence by the secret agencies of the government.

I have had the misfortune of living near by psychopaths all my life. I once was a member of a religious organization that had bought off the judiciary and state government of a sparsely populated western state. The leader of the organization had for years gotten away with rape, false imprisonment, and assault and battery for years. A right hand man of the organization had gotten away with pedophilia for years. The organization had a security business that was able to get business on the best of terms. The party machine of that state had been well lubricated with funding. Hundreds of people knew about this religious leader. A congressman intervened on this crook’s behalf to shut down federal investigations of drug smuggling and gun running. Conspiracies can be run with a large number of secret bearers. I am familiar with how they would defame people who had left the religious group as perverts, psychotics, and malcontents. I have had my life threatened, when I tried to come out with certain secrets. I know conspiracy.

It was because the crimes behind the assiassinations weren’t uncovered and the criminals punished, that the mass murders became more massive.  The 9/11-anthrax homicide might not have been attempted if the previous crimes had been revealed.

It is amazing how you are able to read my mind on that score.

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Inherit’s know nothing attitude was common after the John Kennedy assassination.  I had it myself for years afterward until I read Mark Lane’s RUSH TO JUDGEMENT.  As you may remember, it was orginally allowed publication in the contrary, and Bertrand Russell and other British notables were requried to get it published in Britain.

Sometimes you just have to cut your losses short. Most people are good and kind, and they can’t imagine how anybody could be any different from them. It is easier to believe in lone nutters and small terrorist cells as perpetrators of horrific crimes.


It was the most shocking book I had ever read.  I simply couldn’t beleive it, and started looking at the Warren Commission evidence.  It wasn’t the murder that astonished me, but all the mainstream lies about it.  It never occurred to me that a coverup of that magnitude was possible in the US.

I had not read that book, but I had read A Texan Looks at Lyndon by J. Evetts Haley. I no longer care that much about party affiliation, as I try to use justice as a point of view. I don’t have this blind veneration of Presidents as heroic figures. So called mainstream people look at TR, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, and JFK as almost saint like. I see them as seriously flawed men who acted immorally as they were complicit in the deaths of innocent human beings. Some were sexually perverted. Gore
Vidal once related how JFK had asphyxiated a woman in the bathtub so as to enjoy sex with her while vagina convulsed from oxygen starvation. I wish I could remember the exact source. The woman survived the experience but was furious over it. As to the Haley book I remember passages of it where people who got in LBJ’s way ended up dead. I remember a documentary, “The Guilty Men”, where LBJ said the night before JFK’s murder that that bastard(JFK) after tomorrow would never bother him again. I remember how Jack Valenti organized LBJ family and friends such as Bill Moyers to have that documentary pulled off the Discovery Channel. I remember how Dan Rather was just second stringer in Texas before he signed on to the idea that gun shots came from behind JFK and not from in front of him. I knew that Moyers helped in organizing that campaign in Dallas, and I can never look at him without revulsion.

The problem with Inherit is somewhat different though.  The Israeli Mossad is involved to a greater or lesser extent in some of these crimes- notably the Mossad High Fivers celebrating the plane crashes in the park- and he identifies with apartheid Israel. So his approach to all such matters is principled ignorance.

You can only do the best that you can and then move on. I think there are a lot of lurkers, and posters who have had their eyes opened. It is not all for naught.

So he won’t look at the evidence or reasoning for fear of discrediting Zionism.  The standard Zionist response to adverse evidence is censorship and smearing the truthers, and this will increase as the American people realize how their policies have been hijacked by Zionism.

I think that the Cold War tactics of discrediting people will not work anymore. Those who use them think they are still living in the 1970’s, when there were only three major TV networks giving us the news.

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By Tony Wicher, November 9, 2008 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, November 9 at 12:54 am

Well, it seems to me that Folktruther sometimes comes out of his shell and sounds like a real person. It appears that we’ve gotten though to each other, but then he goes back to his ideological rant, and says things that contradict the human connection and understanding I thought we had.

Folktruther is fortunate to have two such great psychoanalysts as you and me diagnosing his problems for free. I hope he learns something.

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

The Bipartisan Slave State


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread409618/pg1


...
Obama’s vision of the American dream, however, will not consist of Americans freely choosing to volunteer to work in their communities and neighborhoods. It will be a requirement. “Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.” (Emphasis added.)

And it will not simply be the young who will be “called” by government mandate to serve. It will be everybody, including senior citizens. “Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.” The words “call” and “require” appear to be interchangeable in this context.

As the Albuquerque Examiner mentioned yesterday, Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, wants compulsory service imposed on eighteen and twenty-five year old Americans. “They’ll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community,” writes Emanuel in his book, The Plan: Big Ideas for America. “These young people will be available to address their communities’ most pressing needs.”

...

Charlie Rangle has authored a bill that may be dusted off after Obama enters the Oval Office. It’s called the National Service Act and calls for a universal draft with two years of “service” for virtually all persons aged 18-42, with no deferment for college. The language of Rangel’s bill states that “all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42″ be required to “perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security.”

**********************************

I don’t think it would have been any different if McCain had been elected to office. Clearly there is an agenda to reimpose a sort of serfdom on the American people. No one owes labor to government. It should not be an obligation. No one should be required to work for government. This Charlie Rangel is chief among a throng of whoremasters in Congress. Disgusting! If you can defend this as Democratic voter, then I fear for the soul of this country. This Rahm Emmanuel is especially nauseating. He has done nothing in his life out of pure altruism and yet he feels he can conscript the youth, when they need to spend their precious time building up talents. He would rather the government run a Shanghai scam. It would take a lot of guts to defend this slave running scheme.

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By Folktruther, November 9, 2008 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

Paracelus, Cann4ling, you really know a lot about the relations among the assassintions and false flag operations.  I’ve always felt that this was a point that could be emphasized more, the overall view of illegal violence by the secret agencies of the government. 

It was because the crimes behind the assiassinations weren’t uncovered and the criminals punished, that the mass murders became more massive.  The 9/11-anthrax homicide might not have been attempted if the previous crimes had been revealed.

Inherit’s know nothing attitude was common after the John Kennedy assassination.  I had it myself for years afterward until I read Mark Lane’s RUSH TO JUDGEMENT.  As you may remember, it was orginally allowed publication in the contrary, and Bertrand Russell and other British notables were requried to get it published in Britain.

It was the most shocking book I had ever read.  I simply couldn’t beleive it, and started looking at the Warren Commission evidence.  It wasn’t the murder that astonished me, but all the mainstream lies about it.  It never occurred to me that a coverup of that magnitude was possible in the US.

The problem with Inherit is somewhat different though.  The Israeli Mossad is involved to a greater or lesser extent in some of these crimes- notably the Mossad High Fivers celebrating the plane crashes in the park- and he identifies with apartheid Israel. So his approach to all such matters is principled ignorance.

So he won’t look at the evidence or reasoning for fear of discrediting Zionism.  The standard Zionist response to adverse evidence is censorship and smearing the truthers, and this will increase as the American people realize how their policies have been hijacked by Zionism.

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Gird your Loins?

“Gird your loins,” Biden told the crowd. “We’re gonna win with your help, God willing, we’re gonna win, but this is not gonna be an easy ride. This president, the next president, is gonna be left with the most significant task. It’s like cleaning the Augean stables, man. This is more than just, this is more than – think about it, literally, think about it – this is more than just a capital crisis, this is more than just markets. This is a systemic problem we have with this economy.”

I wonder what sort of nastiness we will be forced to endure. As to girding the loins, I went to the dictionary for that, and means to prepare for action as in going into battle. I remember girding has to do with putting on a belt in which to hold a sword. One also girds one’s loins before getting on a war horse. Whom does he feel must be battled against in the economic area? We already have had military brigades called in.

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By cyrena, November 9, 2008 at 6:44 pm Link to this comment

Holy Smoly cann4ing…

This information @By cann4ing, November 9 at 3:46 pm
on the multiple surfacings (throughout history) of George Bush is downright mesmerizing. I never knew!!! Geeze….now I’ve gotta follow that trail. You all keep me busy.

Thanks for passing that along..

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2008 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

You know what? In 13 days it will be the 45th anniversary of that awful day—I remember where I was and what I was doing and I was just a little kid.

I won’t accept any conspiracy theory as even worthy of review until it accepts as a basic fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Texas Book Depository and fired the shots the killed JFK and wounded Gov. Connelly—the ONLY shots fired. Everything else about the execution of act of the murder itself is CRAP!

Now, how Oswald got there on THAT day with that gun: THERE is where you start your conspiracy hunt, because there is much about Oswald and his actions of the previous several years that’s very curious.

Meanwhile, we have a new, brilliant, dynamic President-Elect who is super-capable at mundane management and at the same time inspiring and charasmatic—and humble enough to recognize a minor screwup and apologize to an old lady for it.

Me? I’m EXCITED about a president for the first time since I’ve been old enough to understand what the Presidency is.  I am deeply relieved that our long national nightmare can start being repaired.

And, for the first time in a long time I am prouder of the United States than I can remember.  No phony Republican pride: Who could be proud when the photos of My Lai were published? Who could be proud when our pseudo-elected President Mussolini shredded our Constitution and started a totally illegal war?  Who could be proud when our nation SANK the world’s economy due to selfish greed and short-sightedness?  Who could be proud of Abu Graib or Guantanamo?

But on Tuesday night I was proud again, prouder than ever of what we are and can be.  And I’m not going to cut down the man who led us to that point…

At least not until January 20, 2009!

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By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—I wil have to read it all over today and tomorrow.. I sit at an uncomfortable table (with no level to put the keyboard on), so I can only sit and read for so long. My bad foot turns black if I sit too long.

People think that if you have a problem with a limb you need to “sit down”—that’s the worst I can do. I have to get up and walk around, because i have no major artery in that leg.

I wouldnt even think of commenting until I have read it—looks complicated. Thanks, though.

I’d print it out, but I dont have any ink!!lol

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

There’s more:

Kennedy’s was not the only assassination on American soil where the name “George Bush” surfaces.  On September 21, 1976 Virgilio Paz and Dionisio Suarez detonated a remote controlled bomb inside a moving car on the streets of Washington D.C., killing Salvador Allende’s former defense minister, Orlando Letelier, and American Ronni Moffit, who drowned in her own blood.

Eight weeks before the Letelier assassination, on July 26, 1976, George Landau, the Ambassador to Paraguay, sent CIA Director Bush a cable passing on what Landau regarded as an extraordinary request by the Paraguayan government to provide U.S. entry visas to two Chilean intelligence officers with Paraguayan passports who claimed that they would be meeting with top CIA officials in Washington.  Bush did not send a reply until August 4, at which time he told Landau that the CIA “wanted nothing to do with the mission.”  But by then Landau had already issued the visas.

Trento places the blame for the delay on Ted Shackley, Bush’s assistant, whom he claims “sat on the cable.”  While that is certainly possible, it is also possible that Bush chose to delay sending the reply until he knew the DINA agents were on their way, and then formulated the reply’s content in order to erect a plausible denial  This latter possibility is enhanced by the fact that the CIA did nothing to stop the DINA agents, who openly entered the country on August 22, even after the Chilean Embassy notified the CIA of the agents’ arrival in Washington D.C.  During an ensuing Justice Department investigation, Bush failed to turn over CIA files and “defended DINA against accusations that it conducted the assassinations.”

On September 21, 2006 Peter Kornbluh, a senior analyst with the National Security Archive told Amy Goodman that in 2000 his organization requested that the documentation pertaining to the Lettelier assassination be declassified.  The investigation was reopened.  The George W. Bush administration assumed power.  The documents have never been released.

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By cyrena, November 9, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

Aw shucks Inherit,

I’m not mean. Well, at least the population that I deal with in person, and on a daily basis doesn’t seem to think so. In fact, they think I’m generous and NON-confrontational to a fault.

So, I’ve been practicing (on you all) to be MORE confrontational. wink(tee hee).

No but seriously…it’s a perception and I accept that, since I’m an academic as much as I am anything else. When we take the emotion out of it, (whatever ‘it’ is) then we can better determine what makes ‘it’ all work.

So, I’m not more or less smarter than you or anyone else. I’m only as smart as Jackpine here, who is smart enough to know that there’s a whole bunch of stuff he doesn’t know. THAT’S how smart I am. I know that as individuals, we will never know more than a morsel, (proportionately speaking) of all the knowledge there is. Collectively, we can know much more, but still only a tiny fraction of what is infinite…knowledge.

And so it is. The issue of mental/emotional health is huge for all of us, both individually and collectively. Social psychologists, (among others) have studied this for multiple decades, even as we continue to study it from both objective and subjective viewing stations.

Meantime, I’m still putting out fires here and there, when it’s doable. It isn’t always. We just do what we can with what we’ve got, eh?

I just received an interesting email and link from The Pen, (one of many activist E-zines) It’s an interesting note regarding a long term action for me and those of my ilk who have been determined to make Cheney/Bush accountable for their crimes. (before they can pardon themselves, which I fear they already have).

So, I’ll post that when I return. I’m anxious to get some chores and other errands done before I hit the road again tomorrow.

Cheers…

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

And there’s more:

Dulles did not limit his recruitment to former Nazis.  He set his sights on those within the American business community who financed the Nazi rise to power, including one Prescott Bush, W’s paternal grandfather, whose involvement with the Nazis, Trento asserts, did not reflect ideological affinity.  It “was just money” —hardly a comfort given the fact that, at the same time he was supporting the Nazi war machine, Prescott’s son, George H.W. Bush was off fighting in the Pacific.  Then again, perhaps it does say something about the relative importance of money in the Bush household.

After the war, as damning evidence surfaced from captured German bank records, documents made their way into a CIA file where Helms could shield both Harriman and Bush while having something he could hold over them.  Prescott then “spent most of his post-World War II life cooperating with and taking an active interest in, the most covert CIA intelligence operations.”  This included, following Prescott’s election to the Senate, maneuvering to obtain a position on the Senate Armed Services Committee and, upon Dulles’s urging, a position on the subcommittee which oversaw the CIA.

Prescott set up a job for George H.W. Bush with Henry Neil Malon and Dresser Industries, which “had long provided cover for the agency,”  Dulles targeted George for recruitment as a CIA business asset.  Trento asserts that George H.W. began “doing favors for the CIA” in 1956 after he had moved to Houston and established Zapata-Offshore, which led to his involvement with the anti-Castro Cubans in which the CIA used Zapata-Offshore oil rigs as training areas in advance of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Where Trento’s sources suggest that George H.W. Bush’s role was peripheral at this stage, circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise.  The names given to the two repainted naval vessels obtained by Col. Prouty for use in the Bay of Pigs invasion were “Houston” and “Barbara.”  The top secret code name for the invasion was “Operation Zapata.”  On November 29, 1963 J. Edgar Hoover directed a memo to the State Department entitled, “Assassination of President John F. Kennedy November 22, 1963,” which revealed that on November 23, 1963 FBI Special Agent W.T. Forsyth and Capt. William Edwards of the DIA briefed “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency.”

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

Some more tidbits from “Plausible Denial.”

Lane recounts a Sept. 1977 debate that took place between himself and David Atlee Phillips.  Lane thoroughly debunked, as a CIA concocted myth which had been spoon fed to the Warren Commission, the claim that Lee Harvey Oswald had visited the Cuban and Soviet Embassies in Mexico City on Sept. 27 and Oct. 1, 1963.  Plausible Denial reveals the content of a secret CIA memo that Lane obtained as a result of a lawsuit.  The memo directed the CIA’s media assets on how they should impugn the integrity of authors who dissented from the erroneous conclusions of the Warren Commission; Lane, in particular.

Phillips, as the CIA’s former head of intelligence for the Western Hemisphere, had been involved in the agency’s attempt to malign Lane and discredit his early critical work, “Rush to Judgment.”  When directly confronted with the crimes of the agency, an ashen-faced and sometimes contrite Phillips pleaded for understanding of the difficulty in leading a dual life as a spy.  He stated that he regretted “the attempts to destroy Mr. Lane,” acknowledging not only the content of the secret memo, but its world-wide distribution within the agency.  Phillips made a remark that directly contradicted statements he, Phillips, had given to the Warren Commission and the sworn testimony he had provided to the House Select Committee on Assassinations:  “Now, I am not in a position today to talk to you about the inner workings of the CIA station in Mexico City…; but I will tell you this, …there was never a photograph taken of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City….There is no evidence to show that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Soviet Embassy.”

Per Lane, the CIA cover-up was facilitated by its former director, Allen Dulles, who had been fired by President Kennedy only to be appointed as a key member of the Warren Commission by President Johnson.  The FBI’s man inside the Commission was Gerald Ford, who illegally passed on top secret information to Hoover’s assistant, Cartha DeLoach, noting that FBI assistance was needed to bring two dissenting Commission members to the FBI’s view that the shots that killed Kennedy had been fired from the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

Dulles had done business with Nazis before World War II.  Per Joseph Trento, “Prelude to Terror,” Dulles served in the O.S.S. in Bern, Switzerland.  From 1945 to 1947, preceding the creation of the CIA, Dulles ran his own private and entirely illegal intelligence service in which he “began a massive ex-Nazi recruitment campaign, using a State Department refugee office as a front.”

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By Da Bronx, November 9, 2008 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You may call it “conspiricy theories” “Crap” or “delusion” but I’ll tell you this. Very few people who were alive on November 22, 1963 believe we got the truth from our goverment. 

John Connerly, Governor of Texas, lifetime NRA member, and expert marksman said “I heard shots from two different directions.” He retracted his contention later, but I saaw his face when he made the first statement.  It was the face of a man confident he was telling the truth.

Oliver Stone writes fiction… I have no reason to believe his version, and I have no version of my own, BUT I am sure that what we were told was not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Our grandchildren (if they exist) will hear the truth 50 years after Carolyn Kennedy’s death.

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi—Perhaps I’m a bit dated.  The principle source of my knowledge comes from books, not links, though certainly the latter provide valuable references sources.

I am amused when someone like ITW utilizes the phrase “conspiracy theory” as a form of dismissive denigration; a short-hand form of discarding any facts that do not square with the official view of reality.

The word “theory” refers to “systematically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.”  It forms the core of the scientific method.

As used by the corporate media, “conspiracy theorist” is a derogatory label exclusively intended to dismiss any and all who challenge “official reality.”  As O’Brien told Winston Smith in “1984,” only the “mentally deranged” challenge official reality.  No matter the flaws—the Warren Commission Report’s pristine bullet, a 9/11 Commission Report, heavily reliant upon evidence obtained by torture,  which fails to deal with let alone explain why WTC 7, which had not been struck by a plane, suddenly collapsed into its own footprint in the span of 8.7 seconds, or the Morris/Barone wild speculations about a Democratic Party scheme to rig the exit-polls in 2004 as opposed to a Rove-led effort to electronically rig the official count—theories that support official reality are uncritically received. 

No matter the solid credentials of individuals like Mark Lane (JFK assassination) or Steven Freeman, Ph.D.  (“Was the 2004 Election Stolen?”), no matter the scientific underpinning of their analysis, they will be conveniently ignored, described so eloquently by ITW as “crap” while the “official theory” is accepted as gospel.

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By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing—I did not know some of this—-so what happened to make JFK change his mind? Got a link?I really do read most of this stuff. Oh, btw—dont make it CD!I know that PE O is not pressident yet—but it would send a signal to the world.

jakcpine—I looked over the post I wrote—I dont remember saying anything that would indicate that I didnt think you had a right to post or to you opinions. Sorry if I gave that impression.If everyone agrees—what a bore.If you are a centrist/moderate , you are in huge company.I also think that you are intelligent.I’m just a little touchy about GOP—I am afraid that they will “infiltrate” and , bascially , co-op the majority.That is what theyve done in the past. (Dems may do the same things, and I may not see it) I thought “sane and levelheaded” was a compliment, especially when you relay that you dont think others are.

IRW—I know you dont want to say anymore—-but , do you also think that Cann4ing post is “crap”? I am not being confrontational. This is something I certainly dont know everything about.

I think TD (from what I have seen) has been very open about allowing many viewpoints and much more so than alot of other websites—especially right now. I’m not just saying it—I have posted to other—I see people disappear form them every day (even their old posts!)(not in the Shock Doctrine sense—ywet! LOLOL!) and run into them elsewhere, once in a awhile. I think that banning them is stupid.But, TD posts “rules”. Others do not.Or, they make them very ambiguous or seem to decide the rules ad hoc.

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By leilah, November 9, 2008 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

Paracelsus,

I agree with you that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy.  I’ve not been able to read all the most recent information about it, but the simple facts still remain.  One little anecdote of testimony stays in my memory and struck me as strange: an observer was standing outside the Depository and he said he heard the shot and then he heard the gun being reloaded, and heard it again.  Now, he was at ground level; Oswald was supposedly five stories up inside the building with an open window. 
As far as JFK the movie goes, I don’t think Oliver Stone was doing a scholarly documentaty to analyze the case.  But as sort of a disservice, he has created a focal point where those who want to deny the conspiracy can throw that up and create a clamor.
If you ventured a theory on the 9/11, I’ve backed off from that and simply say they should do an open, honest and in-depth investigation.  Those who want to dismiss the coverup and accept the 9/11 Committee’s findings simply mention Stone’s movie and smugle ask, “Who was behind it the CIA?  Mmmmph?”
That’s the mistake the Loose Change team made when they appeared on Democracy Now! with the group from Popular Mechanics.  One of them from Loose Change blurted out that it was the CIA, the FBI, the DOD, the NSA and so on. 
However, I do wonder what Bugliosi is up to.  I thought that creepy guy Posner settled the question for the doubters and critics a few years back with his book.

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

Because it’s CRAP! Pure and simple CRAP! The conspiracy buffs lie about the bullet shot timing, they lie about Oswald’s sharpshooter status, they lie about the doctors’ analysis of the wound (which they ALL re-iterated years later), they lie about everything. There’s categorical proof that Oswald killed Kennedy and acted alone. All the Oliver Stone fairy tales were proved to be ... CRAP!

Find the NOVA analysis ... and E. Howard Hunt was a liar and a CONVICTED criminal with delusional fantasies, writing spy novels.  Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian, said he was killing the man who would be President and was a friend of Israel.  Again, everything else is crap.

Yes, it is all that simple. Of course! I’ll leave you to your habitude.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2008 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Paracelsus, November 9 at 8:34 am #

I don’t know if you are brighter than me or not.  But you are definitely meaner! But that’s one of the things I appreciate about you!

Sure, I think your ideas on 9/11 are nonsense, just like I KNOW that Paracelsus’s fantasies on the JFK and RFK assassinations are nonsense.

You have acknowledged that Cyrena is meaner than yourself, but I don’t think that is a virtue, especially as it goes into personally destroying another over a difference of opinion.

As to what I had said about JFK and RFK, this not fantasy. I gave you a link to the Saint John interviews of E. Howard Hunt. Tell me, did you look at the interviews?
***********************************

Because it’s CRAP! Pure and simple CRAP!  The conspiracy buffs lie about the bullet shot timing, they lie about Oswald’s sharpshooter status, they lie about the doctors’ analysis of the wound (which they ALL re-iterated years later), they lie about everything. There’s categorical proof that Oswald killed Kennedy and acted alone. All the Oliver Stone fairy tales were proved to be ... CRAP!

Find the NOVA analysis ... and E. Howard Hunt was a liar and a CONVICTED criminal with delusional fantasies, writing spy novels.  Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian, said he was killing the man who would be President and was a friend of Israel.  Again, everything else is crap.

That’s all I’m going to say on the subject.

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By jackpine savage, November 9, 2008 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

I am neither Democrat nor Republican. I voted for Obama but did not volunteer or donate or any of that. I am neither conservative nor liberal, though i am conservative in some things and liberal in others.

But no matter, i have as little desire to be involved in what Truthdig conversations have become as the conversers have for my involvement.

I will say this, i like finding out what people who don’t agree with me think…because while i’m not very smart, i’m smart enough to know that i don’t know everything…nor do i have a monopoly on truth. I did not say that i agreed with what was said on Republicansforobama only that it was sane and levelheaded. Something that Truthdig used to be and is no longer.

You’ve all proved one thing to me, the only thing worse than a Republican/neo-con is a Democrat/progressive…and vice versa.

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

I fully concur with your last post, KDelphi.  In the last vote in the UN every nation except three favored an end to the ban on trade with Cuba.  Those three nations were the US, Israel and Palau. 

Curiously, what you propose may have come to fruition 44 years ago had JFK not been assassinated.  In “Plausible Denial” Lane asserts that President Kennedy not only considered sending William Atwood, the U.S. Ambassador to Guinea to negotiate with Castro, but asked Attwood’s friend, French journalist Jean Daniel, to convey to Castro that he, Kennedy, accepted that “the ‘economic colonization, humiliation, and exploitation’ visited upon Cuba were at least in part due to the policies of the United States…’  Kennedy asked Daniel to pass on to Castro that the “United States can coexist with a nation in the hemisphere that espouses a different economic system….It is the subservient relationship with the Soviet Union that creates the problem.’”  Kennedy followed up with a November 18, 1963 address to the Inter-American Press Associates in Miami, stating that the U.S. would “not dictate to any nation how to organize its economic life.”

When Kennedy’s position was relayed, Castro not only told Daniel that he believed Kennedy was “sincere” but that he believed Kennedy “still has the possibility of being, in the eyes of history, the greatest president of the United States, the leader who may at last understand that there can be coexistence between capitalists and socialists.”

The real opposition to restoration of full relations with Cuba comes from the fact that it dares to challenge George H.W. Bush’s “New World Order”—it is outside the control of U.S. dominated, corporate imperialism.

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By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

I have a suggestion for Pres. Elect Obama—-maybe someone can tell me if it is viable.


Why do we not show our desire to reconcile with the rest of the world (especially our own hemisphere) by offering aid (with no strings or spies) to Cuba and Haitti, in light of the horrible storms they have experienced.

People know that Castro offered to send doctors to help after Katrina and to GITMO, right? Of course Dubya turned him down, without offering any assistance himself.

That is one reason why I “dislike’ Bush so much—nothing “partisan” about it!

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

Adding to my last post,

Orlando Bosch, whose CORU network was linked to the Contra supply operation in the 1980’s, openly took credit for the bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner (See, Peter Dale Scott & Jonathan Marshall, Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies and the CIA in Central America (Univ. of California Press) (1991) at p. 132.)  According to Ricardo Alarcon, President of the Cuban National Assembly, declassified State Department documents implicate Bosch in the assassination of Orlando Lettelier.  (Interview by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!  September 21, 2005).  Today, thanks to a presidential pardon from George H.W. Bush, Bosch walks the streets of Miami, Florida, a free man. (Noam Chomsky, Failed States at p. 6).

There is a rather curious connection between the Kennedy assassination and Watergate that goes beyond the Lorenz identification of Watergate burglars Hunt and Sturgis.  This curious connection was made by none other than H.R. Haldeman in “The Ends of Power” (Time Books) (1978) recounted by Lane’s “Plausible Denial” at pp. 110-111.  Seeking the CIA’s protection from the escalating Watergate scandal, Nixon dispatched Haldeman to meet with Richard Helms.  When he met with the usual CIA stonewalling, Haldeman told Helms that the “president asked me to tell you this entire affair may be connected to the Bay of Pigs….”  Helms came unglued, gripping the arms of his chair and shouting that there was no connection.  Haldeman, initially perplexed by Helms’s overreaction, observed:  “It seems that in all those Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs he was referring to the Kennedy assassination.”  Haldeman went on to note that “after Kennedy was killed, the CIA launched a fantastic cover-up” and that “The CIA literally erased any connection between Kennedy’s assassination and the CIA.”

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By cann4ing, November 9, 2008 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

The death bed confession of E. Howard Hunt, referenced by Paracelsus, must be placed with in the context of Mark Lane’s “Plausible Denial,” a thoughtful, fact-filled, persuasive and sustained argument of a likely CIA involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy.

“Plausible Denial” is based on Lane’s successful defense of a libel action brought by Hunt against former CIA agent Victor Marchetti and a tiny publisher, Liberty Lobby, for an article implicating Hunt in the Kennedy assassination.

In that action, Marita Lorenz, Fidel Castro’s former girlfriend, recruited into the CIA by Frank Sturgis, testified that she, along with Frank Sturgis, Jack Patrick Hemming, Orlando Bosch and Alexander Rorke, Jr. traveled by way of a two-car caravan from Miami to Dallas in November 1963.  One of the two cars was loaded with weapons, M-16s, M-1’s, handguns, shotguns and machine guns.  Shortly after Lorenz and Sturgis arrived at a Dallas motel on November 21, 1963, Hunt, who during the course of his involvement in the Bay of Pigs fiasco was also known as “Eduardo,” showed up and handed an envelope filled with cash to Sturgis.  Hunt remained for about 45 minutes.  Within an hour of Hunt’s departure another individual arrived at their motel room, Jack Ruby!

Lorenz, who had not been provided with the identity of the target of their operation, only knew that the operation was “big” and that she was to act as a decoy.  Having second thoughts, she persuaded Sturgis to take her to the airport.  She flew back to Miami.

On cross-examination, Hunt’s lawyer made a rookie mistake.  He asked Lorenz whether she later spoke with Sturgis about the assassination.  Sturgis had, telling her that she missed “the really big one….  We killed the president that day.  You could have been a   part of it—you know, part of history.  You should have stayed. It was safe.  Everything was covered in advance.  No arrests, no real newspaper investigation.  It was all covered, very
professional.”

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

I don’t know if you are brighter than me or not.  But you are definitely meaner! But that’s one of the things I appreciate about you!

Sure, I think your ideas on 9/11 are nonsense, just like I KNOW that Paracelsus’s fantasies on the JFK and RFK assassinations are nonsense.

You have acknowledged that Cyrena is meaner than yourself, but I don’t think that is a virtue, especially as it goes into personally destroying another over a difference of opinion.

As to what I had said about JFK and RFK, this not fantasy. I gave you a link to the Saint John interviews of E. Howard Hunt. Tell me, did you look at the interviews?

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

KDelphi and Paracelsus don’t remember the LEFT piling on Jimmy Carter to help the Right destroy him.

Well, I sure do! I remember a guy named Ted Kennedy trying to unseat Carter in the Democratic primaries in 1980, without even being able to say why he was running for President (So Palin’s fumbled-tongued interviews were reminiscent to me).  Kennedy lost, but unlike the generous Hillary Clinton, he didn’t then devote himself to get Carter elected. Oh, sure, he gave a GREAT speech “The hope still lives, and the dream will never die!” but he couldn’t even show solidarity with Carter at the Convention.

I do remember something up of that era as I was a teenager back then. In my last post I was trying to show that Carter was an unwilling puppet, who had his life threatened by the system to get him to back off from any real reform.

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By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

ITW—I remember it a little differently. It seemed like a sortve deliberated primary—you know like a primary and convention are supposed to be? INstead of annointing someone a year before.

I am not convinced that Kennedy is “Left”.(He is alot more “Left” than Obama) But, see , you are probably talking to others. I am probably more “left” than most people on here—or certainly most Dems.Is it in the Patriot Act that I cannot “be Left” or something? Cause I missed that, if it was.

Sure, some people piled on Carter ( your dad, my dad—who was gOP at the time).Like I said, I thought Carter did ok. He wasnt able to change much.

We shall see if that has been made any easier. It shouldve—after these past 8 yrs.

Gawd, it seems that CHANGE has suddenly become something we cannot possibly even posit!

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2008 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

Cyrena,

I don’t know if you are brighter than me or not.  But you are definitely meaner! But that’s one of the things I appreciate about you!

Sure, I think your ideas on 9/11 are nonsense, just like I KNOW that Paracelsus’s fantasies on the JFK and RFK assassinations are nonsense.  But he enjoys them…kinda like the Rastafarians thinking Haile Sallasie is coming back, or the Lubovitchers who think The Rebbe is coming back and is the Moshiach and not really dead!  Oh, and there were those who killed themselves to ride Comet Hale-Bopp to heaven.

Then Volks will do some pseudo-pop-psychology “diagnosing” me…remember during Bush’s first term when the neo-cons tried to describe the incredible disgust and hatred for Bush as some sort of irrational psychosis?  It was TOTALLY rational, of course, and therefore not a psychosis.

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By Paracelsus, November 9, 2008 at 9:19 am Link to this comment

Isn’t this somewhat self-contradictory?  Attacks on a person’s morals are not very far from attacks on their mental health.  Abusive language usually indicates that the speaker has run out of things to say; it’s a sign of temporary frustration and defeat.  There is no need to read it, much less reply to it or diagnose it.

In any case, all this, including the tedious impostures previously discussed, is just a bunch of words on a computer screen.  Don’t get too upset.

It is self-evident that anyone who would stoop to calling someone else mentally ill over a difference in opinion is morally loathsome. Mental illness can be excused, but immorality is not excusable. Additionally behind this interface is a human being at a keyboard. No one should put up with a gaslighter. Cyrena has done this so many times. It is time she should got lectured for it. Your complaisance over it will only gives Cyrena permission to act like a foulmouthed gutter snipe. And I don’t need anyone to tell me what not to get offended over. I think she has offended enough people as it is. Don’t condone it.

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By Inherit The Wind, November 9, 2008 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

KDelphi and Paracelsus don’t remember the LEFT piling on Jimmy Carter to help the Right destroy him.

Well, I sure do! I remember a guy named Ted Kennedy trying to unseat Carter in the Democratic primaries in 1980, without even being able to say why he was running for President (So Palin’s fumbled-tongued interviews were reminiscent to me).  Kennedy lost, but unlike the generous Hillary Clinton, he didn’t then devote himself to get Carter elected. Oh, sure, he gave a GREAT speech “The hope still lives, and the dream will never die!” but he couldn’t even show solidarity with Carter at the Convention.

Teddy was “on point” for the anti-Carter Progressives.  I still remember the old-timers (like my Dad) saying “Carter’s impossible!” and others disparagingly referring to him as “Peanut” and “peanut farmer” because he wasn’t “liberal enough”.  Lots of people voted for Kennedy in those primaries as he challenged the sitting President of his party.

I don’t know why nobody remembers Kennedy’s destructive challenge to Carter. It’s not like it’s a big secret.  Maybe it’s because after that, Kennedy spent the next 28 years rebuilding his reputation, committing himself to the Senate, and FINALLY becoming not just a good Senator, but a GREAT Senator. 

I know it took me many, many years to forgive him for 1980, but I was able to because he changed when he realized he’d never be President and started taking his job seriously.  Had he never changed, I never would EVER have forgiven him for helping bring the Reagan disaster to our nation.

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By KDelphi, November 9, 2008 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

First off, as a licensed MSW ( and therefore legally allowed to “diagnose”, I would never be arrogant enough to try to do it online—I may have called Bush & Co psycho or sociopaths once or twice—but I have seen alot more of their actions than of anyone’s here!)

I would like to submit that the definitiotn of “insanity” is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Like completley supporting the duopoly. BTW—Describing someone’s behavior that you have an opinon about is not the same as slapping a diagnosis on someone, which should be avoided at all costs, unless you have to get paid.

Obama supporters like jackpine would help the Dems the most by keeping their high opinions of the gOP and Reagan (morning in america just creeps me out!) to themselvse. When Obama first praised him (he did)I felt panicked. That is how horrible some of us faired under Reagan, in other words, almost as bad as Bush—but Reagan paved the way for the neo-cons. (Trickle down, tax cuts work for everything, etc.)

As far as Carter—we have certainly seen worse. He was honest about raising taxes ( we needed to/need to), he rationing gasolien ( we needed to/need to) and tried to get hostages out of Iran without committing genocide. If it had succeeded , you would all be calling him a hero.

Cause, like , the alternative ( invading a country) has worked so well…

Jack—The Real Left is not asking anyone to accept a “wholesale agenda”—I have been looking for just one small concession. It seems to me, that, in this election , alot of concession have been made to the Right—none to the Left. They think we have “nowhere else to go”. People will only take this so long.After eight years of Bush—is it “radical” to ask for true changes which were promised.

As Eugene Debs said, “My greatest regret is that, under our Constitution, the American people can have almost anything they want, but it just seems they don’t want much of anything at all.”

Settle , settle, settle. Fine. Do it for yourselves. But you do not have a right to do it for US poor, Iraqi civilians,US soldiers, the sick, the elderly who have lost their retirement…we have a right to look to our govt for justice.

Also, stop fighting oppression and then applying it to another minority—like gays, or the poor, or the rich—yes, the rich. How are they ever to achieve their full potential if you keep enabling their destructive behavior? HELP the rich. Throw them out in the street or lock them up—sink or swim. That is what they do to everyone else.Its “compassionate conservatism”. They should be able to use “education ” or something to “pull themselves up by their own bootstraps”.Or get a job!! Make your own boots—or whatever.

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