Accountability CAN LEAD TO THE NECESSARY CHANGE.

1.  IMPEACHMENT will hold Bush accountable for his taking Congressional authority from Congress and declaring illegal wars.

2.  SUING the media for election fraud and consumer fraud forcing two party corruption as if unassailable because they were against the challengers netting national public view at every proper national view contest level, A-presentation of agenda and track records to support the challenging agendas of SIX not TWO for the nation to vote a mandate for REAL CHANGE not bankruptcy bailouts and war.  We wanted a budget in the black and priorities on track.  FOUR CHALLENGERS would lead democracy not autocracy, and peace over war, and budget for people not a military industrial complex of corporate racketeering against all sanity and safety and law and order; B-polls including SIX not TWO after the proper information about SIX not TWO was before the nation; and C-the debates, so the true contest with the proper prelude information so the public was prepared with the essentials for a true contest on the MERITS for a CHANGE and NEW AGENDA ON TRACK agreed by a majority of voters.  Not hype claims for change that have no reality in view.  Incumbents are not how to deliver democracy.  Vote the bums out is how to, but honest contest is and was due.  We are NOT a nation of RED and BLUE states to turn purple.  We are non-partisan by law, with parties producing candidates, and the four challengers were offering CHANGE for a NEW ON TRACK AGENDA.  The BEST of SIX was supposed to be PUBLIC INFORMED VOTED OPINION!  Two incumbents from the media choice is not democracy, it is two party corruption upheld by corrupt media who loves the undoing of our democracy and U.S. Constitution.  Restoration was due November 4th, but the CONTEST was the required Constitutional Majority RULE DECISION.

By Tony Wicher, December 7 at 10:42 pm #

“I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.”

Brilliant!

~~~~

Good one Tony!!

“I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.”

Brilliant!

October 26th, I was given a Tee Shirt with an N on the front, and, on the back, a list of Nader’s Accomplishment Track-which I already knew about, and had told people, look in the encyclopedia for the truth about Nader, the media doesn’t want you to know…they resented my critcism of the media resistance, but for this audience, I am posting the list from the Tee Shirt…and the reality that Nader is Right on the Issues, should not be a surprise, but CERTAINLY the media owes, the proper view that democracy allows the bums in office CHALLENGE by a strong contender to net POLITICAL JUSTICE and honest politics as the NEW STANDARD when corruption of our system is accused.  There is no two party system, only elected officials in office and the media lied, and wanted the NO CHANGE allowed, when they knew Bush shredded the U.S. Constitution and Obama could care less.

So, Nader?  He has shown leadership at a proven track and offered the public the opportunity to vote for honest leadership and force the change at the ballot box, with the power of a proven, credible REAL track record as the proper springboard for momentum of backing for what is wanted for our government leader at the helm:
1-Safe Drinking Water Act
2-Clean Air Act
3-Freedom of Information Act
4-Environmental Protection Agency
5-Seatbelts/Airbags/Tire Safety
6-Consumer Protection Act
7-Whistleblower Protection Act
8-National Traffic & Motor Vehicle Safety Act
9-Clean Water Act
10-Occupational Safety and Health Administration
VoteNader.org

That was on the back of the Tee.  I got my tee from the MA state coordinator because I was a ballot access petitioner, and helped get Nader on the ballot in MA in 2008.  The same coordinator and I worked together in 2004.

Nader on his own track as an Independent Candidate certainly has HUGE leadership to offer the Federal Government and Congress.

The man who founded the Environmental Protection Agency (you can find photos in their website archives and the pollution and smog, likely Los Angeles, in the background.)ought to be welcomed by the media when offering a presidential bid to unseat the bums and the corruption and shredding of our democracy.

In a democracy a challenge to the status quo is the very pith of the required view before the nation.  But, the two parties were so corrupt they refused to permit the public the truth, they lied, and said they owned the votes at a complete two party control.

After 2004, I checked the voter registration statistics.  Discovered 24 states do not register party.  That makes 82 million registered voters registered non-partisan.  Free to believe they can choose the best.  And, of the 26 states who declare party, 21.3 million “declined to state” and chose unaffiliated.  Add 82 to 21.3 and you get over 100 million against the 62 million in the COMBINED TWO PARTIES who lied and said THEY RULE.  They are IN OFFICE AND THE public CAN demand democracy and expose the truth and demand the proper polls and proper debates and honest agenda, track and debates should net honest democracy.

Cyncism as if real, gets the present reality.

And, of course, Nader is still standing, and is RIGHT ON THE ISSUES, and has a track to match.

Why anyone thinks they deserve democracy when they vote a lie, I cannot fathom.  If you wanted Nader, say so and vote so, and know the majority must vote truth to win, and if Nader is not your truth, why cannot you admit you prefer voting corruption against the truth of a democracy for life, liberty, and happiness, and you prefer death and destruction as the path to predatory hell and ruination of your country, that obvious was what the two parties are very engaged in, and the media said you people you voters are not supposed to expect to know who can win, we offer the polls that lie to force the two party corruption as REALITY for you to believe…and, yes, Obama knows that is the reality he wants people to choose, and end up with corpses everywhere voted for, oh yes, he spills the blood verbally and chest thumps his popularity and the audience clapped, I would hiss and boo, and say, “Whose blood are you offering to spill before you even get elected, Obama?  Whose?  Your two little daughters?  Your policies suggest that!  Unprovoked war, will net long drawn out war.  Unwanted, unprovoked, and oh yes, policy cowards fake everything, Obama will seek excuses for all his misdeeds just as Bush has done.  Obama is a proven hypocrit of the worst sort, even Bush had not been as bad.  But, McCain or Obama?  That was NOT the choice before the nation, there were SIX not TWO and EVERYONE WHO KNEW WHO NADER WAS, should have seen him as THE WINNER, but no, they fled from democracy and voted democracy out, entirely.  Bush has more to claim for democracy than obama.  Obama has the hindsight of the violations and abuses against the proper democracy of A-Congress decides war, not the President, 535 people representing a nation of 50 states, and B-the Presidential Election is supposed to net an informed contest with a winner for change if the public wants the change, and 89% said they do,  but the media told them they could only vote two parties and the frontrunners IN OFFICE when those were DUE OUT, that was not the media choice, the media chose corruption as their reporting as if public but it was theirs, not ours.

I voted for Nader in 2000, 2004, and 2008.  I knew if the majority voted for Nader he would WIN.

The media did not want Nader in the picture.  I told people he is in the encyclopedia.  People resented that.  they assumed the media was saying what the people wanted!  At least, I figured that must be what they resented.  I also realized they resented THEIR VOTE MATTERED AND THEY HAD TO VOTE RESPONSIBLY or we all suffer the consequences, and they didn’t want to know they had to figure out the best truth on the ballot and so the talk and the walk, for HONEST politics as proper and REAL.

100 million non-partisan voters are registered nationally while only 62 million are in the combined two parties.  The Democrats preferred to lie and to say a Vote for Nader was for Bush, LIBEL in the extreme.  They knew that of course, Kerry, and Gore, took a villains trophy and the media pushed it, because the media seems to like illegal wars! Scary sells?  people are supposed to stand up and challenge the corruption with their ballot power.  Nader was on the ballot and anyone who thought he should be President OWED their vote to be honest to net democracy and proper honest government.  Anyone who refused, obvious WANTED THE RESULT OF THEIR CHOICE.  Hello!  I voted Nader, I like him and the U.S. Constitution.  He is my hero, and my favorite.  I am not alone!

To hear and see Obama offering chest thumping bad policy war, go to http://www.barackobama.com click on “issues” and then drop down menu to “foreign policy” and look and listen to his cowardice and offer of spilling blood, told in advance, and now in almost there, progress.

Oh, I agree, Anarcissie, we have to try.  Pesssimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, as Gransci put it.

Folktruther—no doubt the incoming administration will easily split the imperialist “progressives” from the anti-war “progressives”.  That has already happened as you can see on this web site and everywhere else.  I am not talking about achieving a ruling majority, however, but about making trouble—about maintaining a public critique. 

Of course the Left will be slandered—that goes without saying.  The point is to subvert the atmosphere of worship and obedience with some common sense, not to win a popularity contest.

Tom Paine—Scary stuff—good link. Thanks.

I, too, hope that I am wrong about almost everything—except my strong faith that the Am people will act at some point and take back their country.

Some are talking about going to inauggeration—but , I think it would end up like Denver.Also, many (me) probably cannot afford it.

The problem with not acting to end the war(s), is, of course, that we will still be at war. But, it is also an indication of how much “change” the govt is willing to implement , to bend to the will of the people.

Funding these wars also severely limits what else we can fund.

No, Anarcissie, Obama can separate the imperialist Progressives from the anti-imperialist progressives and isolate the latter.  He then can unite the imperialists with the indifferent middle of Dem-Gops to support an imperialist foreign policy, the War on Terrorism.

The anti-imperialist left will then be sleazed by the mass media as unpatriotic, communists, paranoids, conspiracy theories, etc in the usual way.
And the wars will go on.

Frankly, I don’t see how he can politically stop the Afghanistan war without weakening Nato and be saddled with the loss.  Which will be brought up at the next election.  I may be wrong, I HOPE I’m wrong, but I think there will be troops fighting in both countries in the 2012 election, as well as in Pakistan.  Obiden is EXPANDING the war in Afghanistan to avoid losing it.

The sad truth is that Obama is a puppet. This is who is meeting with as his top priority and this is why all the savvy media says not to get your hopes up. You’ve been had.

See these facts.
http://www.countercurrents.org/eley071108.htm

I don’t think that Obama has any intention of meeting with Nader, liberals, or the left. Moving to the “center” after the neocons is like moving to Utah. 

“Meanwhile, a series of statements by leading Democratic figures have emphasized their intention to pursue a “centrist” policy—by which they mean a conventional, i.e., right-wing, policy.

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California, spelled this out in no uncertain terms on Wednesday, advising Obama that he must “bring people together to reach consensus” on issues like the economy and the war. “A new president must govern from the middle,” she said.

Leon Panetta, former chief of staff to Bill Clinton, said, “He’s got to lower some expectations, indicate the limits he’s confronting.”

Good night and good luck!
Tom

Folktruther, KDelphi—I don’t agree that “we” don’t have leverage.  Obama and his friends are already looking ahead.  Much of their work will simply be to repair the damage (from the ruling-class point of view) which Bush’s inept regime has wrought.  But they will also be trying to put forward positive programs which will keep their supporters happy and on board.  Now, suppose a lot of people start demanding an end to the various wars started by Bush.  Obama will have to deal with it or risk losing much of his support.  He may deal with it in a tricky way, but he won’t be able to shrug it off.  At least, I don’t think he will be able to.

Of course, I don’t know how to put a million people in the street.  Much of the time the number of people I can put into the street approximates one.

Hi Anarcissie - I don’t think it’s an either/or kind of situation.  Right now, Obama is meeting with a bunch of different folks - I want to make sure that Nader and other progressive leaders are among the folks he’s talking to,  not just now but in the future.  We should *also* be organizing mass actions to get our points across; the two aren’t contradictory.

Anarcissie and KDelphi are both right; putting a milliion people on Obama’s doorstep is much more effective than leaders conferring, and this could have been done more effectively during the election.

But Roosevelt was influenced by the strikes at the beginning of his administration, which led to the New Deal.  What schoolbook history obscures is that he never ended the Depression until he manuvered a reluctant population into war.  Unfortunately, political leaders are closer students of power than the population, and Obama is a good student.

elianita55—Youre welcome! And thanks for the link!

Go Brian Moore!

Viva Amerika Libre! (Humor me folks)

Anarcissie—It might work, to put a million people on Obama’s doorstep. But I suggest that it would have been far more likely to work during the campaign.

That was when we had leverage.

Similarly , the thousands of people who appeared at Bush’s Stolen HOuse, after Obama was elected—all good an well. But, just think if they had done it before we invaded Iraq—when the decision was still being made? What if they had hounded Congress the way they did over the bailout (which didnt work—it has to be when you have leverage). Or, if we had even been able to get enough people to do a decent protest—what then?

We shall never know.

KDelphi - thanks for the compliment!
The most complete report on third party candidate results I’ve found is on AOL (available at http://news.aol.com/elections/2008/president#presResults). It credits Brian Moore with 6,563 popular votes.

smendler:
I’ve set up a petition urging Obama to meet with Nader….

Why?

I suggest pushing issues rather than not-so-great Great Leaders.  For instance, there are millions of people who are opposed to the standard U.S. policy of imperialism and world domination and the endless war which it necessitates, whereas there were only a few hundred thousand who cared to vote for Mr. Nader.  There is a set of existing organizations and an existing movement to express that opposition.  Mr. Nader can join if he likes.  If the anti-war movement could put a million people on Obama’s doorstep, he might listen to that.  He is not likely to meet with a candidate who got 1/6 of one percent of the popular vote and has no party to back him up, brilliant or righteous though the fellow may be.

Hi Chris—

I’ve set up a petition urging Obama to meet with Nader as soon as possible:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/obama-meet-w-nader

It’s pretty clear that if progressives want Obama’s ear, we’re going to have to make a lot of noise if we are to get past all the Status Quo folks (such as were on display in his “economic brain trust”...!)

MeHere—Thanks you! Nader is 74 years old! In the 60s and 70s, “Uncle Tom” was used to refer to people who were considered race or class “traitors”. When I first heard it, I was a little taken aback. Then I listened to the video.

If you really think that Nader is a racist, I just think you are wrong. Jackson and others have questioned Obamas’s loyalty to the “black community” (that was what the sign held up by Af Am young men said! They were chanted down by a junior high age white kid, who got the crowd yelling, Yes we can!” until Obama interceded)) in a less eloquent way, if anyone recalls….

I have also heard Nader called a “anti-semetic Marxist”. Nader is none of the three. Marx was born a Jew, as most know. He was baptizeed and raised Lutheran , but soon became an atheist. The Commnist Party in the uS backed—Obama. The Socialist party VP was Af Am. Nader is a Social Democrat, to my way of thinking.He was formerly of teh Green Party. McKinney ran as a Green.

Stop taking yourselves so damn seriously ‘Merka! The Dems won—every PDA should be thrilled. Everyone should be thrilled that Bush will be gone.

Obama is so laid back—maybe you should take a cue from him.

On MSNBC, Matthews saw a pic of Sarkozy on a boat, with Bush (I think!!), and it showed hs “rolls” over his bathing suit. I guess Sarkozy complained. Matthews says, “Well, we’ll just have to let Sarkozy know that we dont treat our politicians like royalty here!” . Ew! Got him! Snap, Matthews! Sarkozy is on Martha’s Vineyard with Bush at his family comopound, on a yaght! Showed those snobby old french how “everyman” OUR politicians are!

Does that mean we get to Barbara Bush’s fat rolls? Not that I am all that eager for it. Frankly I have revolted myself. I gotta ralph. Sorry!

Oops, made an error in the link.  Mea culpa!

Here’s the right link:

http://change.gov/

One of Obama’s first acts as President-Elect reveals that he is the anti-Cheney.  Where Cheney’s penchant for secrecy is legendary, Obama’s first act was to open a website to insure transparency.

http://www.changegov.org

MeHere—Yes a Catch-22 is what it is. No one seems to be concerned about it here—I know that people travel more than they used to. I just dont get it.Actually, the oldest living monarhcy in the world—Danmark—would never give so much power to the sovereign as we give to the “commander in chief”. In the UK—you know, the sily old Magna Carta gets in the way of one person rule.

On MSNBC, Matthews saw a pic of Sarkozy on a boat, with Bush (I think!!), and it showed hs “rolls” over his bathing suit. I guess Sarkozy complained. Matthews says, “Well, we’ll just have to let Sarkozy know that we dont treat our politicians like royalty here!” . Ew! Got him! Snap, Matthews! Sarkozy is on Martha’s Vineyard with Bush at his family comopound, on a yaght! Showed those snobby old french how “everyman” OUR politicians are!

elianite55—Thanks for the most detailed information I can find on Third party candiates!I stil have no idea how much of the vote Brian Moore (sp-usa) got. My French is more than rusty—but, from Le Monde (etc.), it seems to be true what I have witnesssed—that people are much more comfortagbel talking about race (ie McKinney) in the rest of the world than in the US. I know it is our horrible history. But, we really need to be able to to talk more openly aboput race, class , gender, if you ask me.Being “politically correct” all the time makes one suspect racism. Perhaps Obama will help with that.

He is trying, with a little self-effacing humor—I think that it humanizes him. Someone had better, before people start expecting him to walk on the Potomac.

It is good to hear that the Green Party is making headway—I will have to check it out. It is certainly a very viable party in most of the “democratic” world. US “addiction” to the duopoly serves no one but the duopoly.

Inherit The Wind recently called Nader nothing less than a racist because of his “Uncle Tom/Uncle Sam” comments.  Nader was not referring to Obama personally. He was simply wondering about the kind of government Obama would have and its impact on black issues. I’ve heard some black thinkers and other black citizens expressing the same exact concerns. Please, let’s give “racism” a rest as a discussion tool and try to look instead at the real issues underlying the racist labels.

THIS JUST IN! PRES_ELECT OBAMA BANNED FROM MANY US WEBSITES FOR RACIST REMARK!

From “Dumass-cus News” (by Kdelphi)

President-Elect Barack Obama is said to be banned from many “liberal” US websites for his racist remark about “mutts like me”! The “audacity”!

Thanks, Anarcissie, for replying to my question.  I would like to pursue this subject further so if anyone has information, please post.  A thought I have is that Nader may not want to ally himself with those in the Green Party who favor voting for Democrats in those states where Republicans have a chance to win.

I believe that the Greens are now more interested in building Green support from the bottom up than in anything else. And they’ve had some successes.  Many don’t realize how incredibly hard it is for third-party candidates to run for any level of political office. You seem to believe that there’s no interest in Congress, State legislature, etc.but I can assure you there is.  Actually, the very reason many of us don’t want to support a Democrat in national elections is because we know that everything depends very much on all those other government institutions and lobbies that are entrenched in power and operate the same way regardless of who the president is.  But what can we do, other than to keep trying to build support for third-party alternatives?  Having been involved in this at the local level, I can assure you that it is a very difficult task.

I’ve had many conversations with people who are fed up with the two parties. However, they tell me they are disappointed with third-party candidates because they don’t seem to do enough to reach voters and they can’t win. This Catch-22 is quite amazing: people won’t vote for third parties because they don’t have a powerful campaign and media machinery—but, without support/votes, third parties cannot grow.

In the meantime, yes, the monarchy sails on.  It is rather enlightening to observe the course of politics in terms of the the country being an empire.  Lots of things become quite clear.

One of the least discussed side effects of Obama’s landslide victory is the further marginalization of third parties in the United States.
As someone that lives in Europe, it is hard to not notice that the United States seems isolated among Western democracies in its determination to head to a further entrenchment in a bipolar political landscape.
Third party candidates are a vital part of the democratic process. Yet the United States’ political system deliberately hinders pluralism by limiting the exposure of third party candidates to media.
For more: http://www.ilpodesta.org/

Yes, Cyrena, Obama has an agenda. Of course. That’s what I said. What I also said is that MM (and I) hope that he leid about his stated agenda. The agenda that he stated was rewarding the Wall Street swindlers, accelerating the war in Afghanistan, subsidizing nuclear power, subsidizing the fantasy of clean coal, giving Israel a blank check, FISA, the Patriot Act, you know all those great things and more that Pelosii and the Democrats have become famous for. Simply that is not my agenda, so simply that is why I didn’t vote for Obama and won’t support him. You will ahve to accept that as my right to voice my decision. Mighty liberal of you!

As I said, this isn’t about Ralph Nader, but the future for my grand kids. That’s what I will continue to fight for—One battle is over but not the war.

I understand why you guys are so afraid of Ralph Nader. Yeah he is a scary dude. LOL!

Good night and good luck!

Tom

cyrena—Almost everybody who has ever written an article has a website now.

Just google their name.

Or were you being facecious.

I should know—people whose names I dont even know know exactly where I live, etc.

BTW—What happened with your moving situation? Just wondered.

By cann4ing, November 7 at 3:59 pm #

By KDelphi, November 7 at 1:40 pm #

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites?

_____________________

You actually think “I” banned you from their websites.  How and when did I do that?

~~~~

I didn’t know they had websites. I’ve always read Norman Soloman’s work on a variety of other sources. Thanks for the tip.

Paracelsus,
I’m not sure I agree that the only solution is bloodshed.  If the French and the Germans can finally be friends and partners with the Italians and the British, ANYBODY can make peace, if they all want it.

Other than that, your analysis was very insightful. It’s making me think about some different perspectives.

Thanks.
ITW.

MeHere: ‘I would very much appreciate hearing from someone who knows exactly why the Greens and Nader are not together in one party.  I am a supporter of both groups.  Thanks. ... ‘

The gossip is that Nader is a big egotist who doesn’t get along much with other people.  Given the microscopic votes for both the Green Party and Nader, I don’t suppose it makes much difference this time around.  In my version of the election, maybe a dozen people were running for president, but only three were running for Congress, the non-mainstreamer being a Libertarian.  No Green Party candidate.  The monarchy sails on, meanwhile all the dissidents and radicals have nothing to say about Congress, the State senate and assembly, or the judiciary.  Too low for their radar, I guess.

•  “What I see is an agenda. Of course I hope (liek MM) that I am wrong.”

I hope you’re right Tom. I would think that we would ALL like to SEE and COMPREHEND an AGENDA!! Christ on a cracker! Why did you support ANY President/Administrator if you didn’t think they had an AGENDA for arranging to provide what the citizens need and want from their government?

There is ALWAYS an ‘agenda’. Do you honestly believe the last 8 years haven’t epitomized the 40 year old AGENDA of Richard B Cheney et al? No, he/they certainly didn’t tell YOU/US what THEIR agenda was. But they damn sure had one, and it’s damn sure been successful, for THEM!

So yeah, in case you haven’t been paying attention for the past couple of years, Obama has an agenda. A few of the priorities…getting us out of Iraq, the economy, health care,  renewable energy, global warming and education are on it as well. Seems like CHANGE from the misery of an authoritarian government is the highest priority. Just wanna try to keep from losing any more citizen souls to the slippery slope or the pull of the abyss.

That’s the agenda.

Ernest,

Thanks for your very insightful input on this thread, (and all others over the years as well). These comments verbalized so of my frustrations born of the contradiction in this historical time. It’s almost a bittersweet experience for me at least, because on the one hand, there is something so overwhelmingly and profoundly PROGRESSIVE and POSITIVE about the fact that the American people have elected an African-American to be President. And, in my community at least, (along with a few others I’ve had to honor to visit) that has been so OBVIOUS! People are walking around congratulating each other, and smiling at every black person they see, (and at each other of course, since around here, there aren’t too many people of color) and you can tell that they are downright PROUD of themselves, and so am I!

On the other hand, these same people (or at least 52% of them) actually passed Prop. 8! I mention this because I was SHOCKED to learn today, that my own sister actually voted for it. And I mention THAT, because it became clear almost immediately, that she didn’t REALLY know or understand the context of that legislation. Now this is the part that shocked me, because she’s actually pretty smart, and fairly logical. So it wasn’t until I began questioning her about WHY she supported something like this, that I learned she didn’t really understand it. She tried to defend it, only making things worse by saying that she ‘didn’t have any problem with’ Civil Unions. It was very lame, which simply pissed her off. I felt bad for her, but angry that we’ve become so susceptible to ideological group think, and then become psyched out when we feel compelled to defend something that we haven’t really thought out for ourselves. (even when we think we have). Such as it was with her. I think it’s a result of certain personalities and ideologies combined with the terror inflicted upon us for the past 8 years.
Still…I’m worried. This is just such a damn slippery slope time.

cann4ing—Oh…dense I am.

Hello. Can I read your article?

Or am I being denser stil….

cann4ing—No, I didnt say that you did. But, that is where Soloman’s article is today (they still send me the newslsetter!), but I cannot click on the article.

But that is just fine with you? How can I respect people like that? It cannot influence my opinion if I cannot read it.

I am not the only one, and that is not the only site (well for me it is) I just think that the censorhsip of the Left( so common among the neo-cons) has to stop. They say they want to build a “broad progesive coalition”—but not include anyone who disagrees? Not include Naderites? Not include Socialists?

I did not bring up Soloman. But it is a little harder to respect the opinions of someone who will not let people voice theirs.

One site of “banned” liberals is Distant Oceans.

I just find it utterly ridiculous. Most of these people are , in large part in agreement with the site. It is incomprehensible.

“He that complies against his will ...Is of his own opinion stil” Samuel Butler, 1612-1680 “Hudibra”

By KDelphi, November 7 at 1:40 pm #

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites?

_____________________

You actually think “I” banned you from their websites.  How and when did I do that?

@ Inherit The Wind

I can offer a viewpoint on the issue through some people I became acquainted with. Many people from Israel/West Palestine come to this country saying they are from somewhere else both the Palestinian fellow and the Israeli family initially told me they came from Russia.

The Palestinian was named Mohammad. He was always awkward round girls as he came off as rudely aggressive or painfully shy. I offered that he might do better with a marriage broker. He was a very clingy fellow at the university. Fellow students would say that they had to run away from him. I don’t think bad of it. I think he was very insecure. He was very adept at mathematics. His clinginess was purely from being stuck at a childish level of socializing with people. He was jumpy and and reactive. You wanted to reassure him that every thing was okay. I feel bad about almost getting in a fight with him because he was such a pest as a jumpy 6 year old in a man’s body could be. I still get a tight feeling in my throat when I think of him to this day. Clearly things weren’t right with him.

I did some business with an Israeli family that wanted to plant security cameras all over their retail outlets. They felt that they could not trust their employees. They were good people, but they seemed so uncertain of their reality as well. They told me that they came from Russia as well.

As to Israel, no nation can come into existence without theft, fraud, and bloodletting. Was the establishment of Israel a holy undertaking fought against blood thirsty Arabs with absolutely no redeeming qualities? No! Reality can’t be that cartoonish.

If we look at the establishment of Rome it started in war and bloodletting. A painting commemorates it as the Rape of Sabine Lock. Clearly the British mandate overrode the will of original inhabitants of Palestine through the enforced immigration of European Jews upon the Arab inhabitants. Even the folks at the Israeli embassy will agree with me on the proviso of a sort lifeboat morality.

In isolation we can look at the establishment of Israel as a bloody immoral conquest, but in the full picture there is the fact that there has never been a refuge for Jews in persecution in Europe. Every moral objection to the establishment of Israel is answered by the double bind of persecution in Europe. “Surely you don’t support the destruction Jewry world over by saying that the state of Israel was immorally established?! Surely you would not want to destroy the panic room of Israel for future endangered generations?!” You have a damning inquiry and accusation all in those interrogatives.

At heart to these past persecutions is the theology of the New Testament. If one were to be a literalist Christian, then one would have to absorb the teachings of Jesus in his condemnations of the Jews. It is always the Jews who acted as Jesus’s enemies. As usual to our psychopathic civilization the chaos gets cooked into the founding principles of our religious and political institutions. There always seem to be a point of cleavage in our philosophies where kings and emperors can use the doubly binding arguments for wars, starvations, and ethnic cleansings. Our country’s founding documents seemed to be brewed potions of future discontent from the Declaration of Independence’s insistence that all men are created equal to the detestable rationalization of the Constitution that each slave is worth 3/5’s of a citizen.

In whole there doesn’t seem to be a religion or a political philosophy that has an inherent moral integrity. There always seems to be some binding statement that is used as a causus belli to promote conflict and sorrow.

As to the Israeli mess, in time a solution will be made, and it will be rather psychopathic in operation. An Israeli Romumulus will bind the unboundable. The Gordian knot of the West Bank will find its sword. It won’t need deftness or cleverness or peaceful compromise to untie it.

Luckily, TP, for Israel, they don’t listen to you and your definitions of “zionism” as large-scale jingoist vision to toss out all non-Jewish Arabs from Greater Palestine…Only the right half of Likud, a bunch of crazies, wants that.  The rest of the “zionists” you condemn simply want a safe, peaceful Israel.  The lie is that YOU tar them (and me) as all being like that nutty religious minority.

I know you’ll say differently, but that IS the lie.

I know you love Nader and Nader hates “Zionists” (and, now, we know he is a racist as well, calling President-Elect Obama an “Uncle Tom”).  But, while I used to think a certain fact unimportant, I now am disturbed that Nader is, after all, a Lebanese Arab by descent, and is merely taking the position leaders from HIS ethnic group advocate on “Zionism”. It’s his ethnicity: Whose ox is being gored?

I’ll be glad when this thread is demoted to Page 2, or better, page 3.  The election’s over and Nader is done until 2012….

cann4ing—I didnt mention Norman Soloman or some of his friends, becuase—well, could you ask them (and Craig Brown) to please stop banning me from their websites? I cant exactly form an opinion if I cant read the articles.

Students for a Non-Democratic Society?

KDelphi, PDA supports the Conyers/Kucinich single payer plan, HR 676.  I think it vital that progressives press their members of Congress to support that measure as the “only” real reform—universal coverage is a scam that merely extends subsidies to the insurance industry.

IT

You don’t read well or you are twisting things on purpose. You don’t know Zionsim from Psionism. Your distractions are not working for either of us.

Like it or not, there exist Zionist Jews and non-Zionist Jews. The latter are the majority. I happen to be in the majority, marginalizing the view of the majority of Jews in teh name of being a defender of Jews, doesn’t work either. Of course that fact blows also your other arguments also… but why should I bother further. It’s up to you to have some integrity or not. 

Politics for me is not a purely personal matter, rather it has to do with other people, family, friends, neighbors, habitat, future generations as well as the price of food, shelter, energy, and health. Those are real issues, not red herring distraction ad hominem arguments. 

Thank you for sharing so generously your original opinions on teh burning issues of the time.
Tom

Amazing how as soon as I post something they don’t like TP and JS start calling me names…like they are being original.  They’re not.

I understand code words, TP, and your use of “Zionist” in 99 of 100 applications as a code word for Jews isn’t negated by your claiming that there are Christian Zionists and non-Zionist Jews.  In fact, YOUR definition of Zionism is ANYONE who doesn’t advocate the destruction of the state of Israel.  BTW, “Anti-semitism” doesn’t mean anti-any semitic peoples anymore than “butterfly” means a fly coated in butter. It means anti-Jews. Period.

I want the Palestinians to have their own nation. And I want Israel to remain a haven for Jews—the only one on the planet. I would VERY much like to see Israelis vote Likud into obscurity and disarm their nutty religious fanatics.  Then again, I’d like to see the Arab nations do the same to THEIR religious fanatics.

I stand by my contention that anyone who doesn’t see a difference between Clinton’s America and Bush’s America has their eyes screwed tightly shut.  I’m just really thankful none of you are in power, but Barack Obama is.

Oh, I don’t defend Truman’s use of atomic weapons on two simple cities. Truman was deliberately mislead by staff who knew he couldn’t absorb what he needed to know to make an intelligent decision.  Between them the two weapons murdered between 150,000 and 175,000 Japanese.  The 24 fire-bombing of Dresden killed as many civilians as died in BOTH Nagasaki and Hiroshima COMBINED!  However, estimates of wrongful deaths in Iraq due to Bush’s war range as high as 650,000 people—more than double the A-bombs and Dresden combined.

But to a parent who has lost a child, or a child who has lost a parent unjustly, the numbers don’t matter.

But I find it sickening that you, TP, are defending George W. Bush’s policies, and claiming they are no different than any Democrat’s.  If Bush was in office 4 more years, neither you nor I would be able to post here!

cann4ing—I want to admit something here. I re-read the PDA stance on health care—it is alot more progressive than I thought. At least in writing. (They did not sound that way at the conference—but, perhaps…) I am afraid that “incremental” will just block real national coverage and, possibly , other progressive issues.

But to say that I did not look into it is not true. Perhaps I am confusing their stance with Obama’s (which I jist heard again on tv—-tax based), and if so, I was wrong about that. It remains to be seen if anything they “suggest” wil be implemented.I guees I agree with them on substance, but, not tactics.I dont thinkt thaqt the Dem Party wil “cede” anything.

ITW—Chavez held a vote on a national referendum, to decide whether he shoudl be able to “run for president for life”. FOX News and others were all geared up , like “Gee, I wonder how this will turn out!! LOL!”. Well, it failed. And Chavez agreed to abide by it. When the alternative is US Chicago School Imperialism or Peru’s Shining Path or President Fujimori—I think that Venezuela is blessed to have Chavez and he them.
My brother in law is Jewish—he says that both Lieberaman and Biden are Zionists. Actually, alot of Christians are very Zionist.I think people have a right to their own country. I just think that Palestianiasn do , too. Israel is not being helped by our absolute endorsement of everything they do. It has us both in a “Folie au deux”.

Tom Paine—You make some very good points. I am going to read it over slowly a couple times (that is what I have to do sometimes) and think on it. Thanks.

Reminds me of “Your freedom ends where my nose begins”

Shirley;

You said that you have hope that Obama is listening/may listen, may give his ear, or is willing to listen. What gives you that hope?

What I see is an agenda. Of course I hope (liek MM)  that I am wrong.

Tom

KDelphi, your latest post entails a reasonable and thoughtful response.  So that you understand where I am coming from, I would strongly urge that you listen to what Robert Kuttner had to say about the interplay between grass roots pressure, along with the realities of economic circumstance, and presidential policies.  That would give you a better insight into what I have in mind.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/7/can_grassroots_m ovement_that_propelled_obama

By the way, you left off your list of progressives in PDA, Norman Solomon.

IT Wind;
Goes to show plainly. You read in a ton of things that I never said. You switch and bait like a typical neocon, while avoiding the “issues”. LOL That’s not an adult conversation.

For example your error equating Zionist with being Jewish was absurd. when you imputed that I was anti-Semitic, just as you label criticism of Obama as a sell-out and liar as a racist slur. So to be correct, although most Zionists are Jewish, the majority of Jewish people are not Zionists. Semites include Palestinian people.

Dialogue helps people to confront their provincial and isolated delusions/illusions and expand their minds. When confronted with your illusions, you do not apologize or thank us, rather you defend your errors.  LOL You need correction, but are incorrigible so that is an impasse. IMO. The internet “could be” a good place to meet and learn from a wide variety of culturally diverse people, how they think and why, but it does require an open mind and willingness to listen.  For example, I have learned from you, how you think and have come to your conclusions, thanks. Although I do not agree with them, it is your right. That is the liberal in me, affording you the right to think for yourself.

Personally, I find the disease of our time is the confusion of the idea of freedom with the idea of autonomy where human beings think and act without integrity or consideration of the whole system, such as habitat, ecology, or community. In short autonomy where a human believes itself to be separate and apart from the process of the greater community of creation and natural systems, rather than a vital part of it. That self identity is not freedom, rather it is an escape from freedom, and leads to autonomous/delusional thinking and isolation.

Certainly one is free to think as they please, but such is merely delusion. Delusion brings about dysfunction and destroys community and vital human   action. Would you not agree?

Comparisons require benchmarks. For example if you compare Truman with Bush in terms of weapons of mass destruction against civilian targets, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed more innocent civilians than GW ever did (not to argue the WWII here but just stating that benchmarks figure) Similarly, LBJ was at the helm when 60,000 American soldiers were killed in action or MIA in Vietnam, while Bush was responsible for only 4 thousand or so GI deaths. So GW looks pretty good in that comparison. Then you are silent on Obama’s hawkish stance on Afghanistan, FISA, the Patriot Act, and his silence on the totalitarian trend of the concentration of power to the executive branch. All of which are counter to my personal values. Then conveniently you impute that my position is Marxist. LOL I suppose that’s convenient for you to project that I was an anti-Semite, Marxist, and racist, but I am certain that you, you have no clue my views, because it is very foreign to your own experience. That type of imputation lacks self awareness and integrity and hence is a useless waste of my time. If I continue, I assume that I will only precipitate more bleeding. I am hoping that you do not represent the average new-age Obama faith based mindset, and eventually you will be able to evaluate his actions with open eyes. It’s plain to see.

“Johnny’s in the bas’ment
mixing up the medicine,
I’m on the pavement,
thinking bout the government”

Bob Dylan

Tom

cann4ng—I am so tired of the PDA—I get daily news from them!! I maintain that they are not “progressive enough for me” . Is that better?? If I can SAY THAT without gettting banned, maybe…I think that many groups underestimate how offensive that is to individuals in this country particualarly from teh “Left”.

For “supporting single payer” they said nothing about it in the campaign. I just dont believe in them “get them in, then ask them to do whats right” theory. Apparently you do. Conyers was at the conference. Obama had plenty of opportunites to endorse HR 676. Plenty of people asked him—but pDA did not.
It is NOT just about “health care”—it is about an attitude that they “owe us nothing”.

And stop fear-mongering about “violent revolution ”
Power cedes nothing. That is what I think.

From their latest emailing (which I receive , so far..)

“Our job, now, will be to work with Obama, to transform the transformational man into a true progressive : 

If you believe Obama needs our help to enact a truly progressive administration, than you’ll want to help PDA in this work. Help contribute to our work of lobbying in D.C., in maintaining our excellent and influential web site,...” 

Progressive Democrats of America is a grassroots PAC that works both inside the Democratic Party and outside in movements for peace and justice. Our goal: Elect a permanent, progressive majority in 2008.

PDA’s advisory board includes seven members of Congress and activist leaders such as Tom Hayden, Medea Benjamin, Thom Hartmann, Jim Hightower and Rev. Lennox Yearwood.

Now if that is “progresive ” to you—fine. It is not to me.I argued with them in Denver (online) and they made it very clear.  If you belong to them—great. Lets see how much they get down. I wish you well.

All I see are a bunch of “suggestons” (along with copious praise), which remind me of teh House Hearings, wavering answers so as not to offend anyone.

The “better angels” stuff really sounds like bs to me, too.

Oh, and I did this…since most insisted in not confronting Obama during the campaign about it—it is, in my mind, a pretty futile gesture.

I actualy did it about a year ago. The reaction from the Dems was underwhelming!!

” You asked for your e-mail address to be added to list ‘pda-singlepayer’.
If you want this action to be taken, please…”

Also:

“In the meantime, PDA also supports health care initiatives at the state and local level that moves toward a nonprofit Single-payer health care system.[3]”

Am I an absolutist when it comes to this? Absolutely! Partly because I have been so personally affected amd know so many who have. Another reason is that I think that the uS NOT having a natl single payer system is symbolic of the attitude that both parties have towards the average USAn. It flies in the face of the policies of every civilized nation and the Human Rights Council. This is not something that PDA has “com e up with”—I was in Europe 20 years ago and we have been fighting for it ever since! NO, incremental changes are not enough. NOt for 20,000 people this year alone.It is way way past time.

Why is the death of a child from a abscess tooth not violence?

Any culture that can stand by and let this happen for as long as it has, I feel, is a culture that can do many other violent things because, in truth it cares not much for its citizens—especialy the poor.Do you not agree that it is indicative of a govt that doesnt answer to the people that we have so much poverty, honmelesness and war? I think that they are all tied in.

If I “join in on the conference call”, and express a strong opinion, I would probably be censored again—I am very , very tired of that.

It is not I who will not work with the Dems anymore.It is they who move at a snail’s pace on life or death issues while people die.

By KDelphi, November 6 at 3:48 pm #

Since the PDA (“Progressive Dems of Am”)runs half teh Dem Party now , I am going out on a limb here and saying that they are NOT progressive. They are “comfortable”. And, yes, sometimes a comfortable ex-liberal (neo-liberal) can be more dangerous than a neo-con. I heard their “special conventions” live in Denver—it was sad to me. Healthcare Not Warfare only seeks “incremental” changes—someday never comes.
_________________________

With all due respect, KDelphi, you have displayed only that you have never looked into the PDA; don’t have a clue as to their positions on matters of substance and and make vastly erroneous assumptions about their “present” standing within the Democratic Party.  There are no members of PDA in a position of Congressional leadership and Barack Obama is not a member of the PDA.  Yet the PDA played a major roll in hammering out favorable language in the Democratic Party Platform pertaining to health care.

Your assumptions about PDA’s position on health care reflect that you don’t have a clue.  PDA has been a consistent advocate of a single-payer system and supports efforts at both the federal and state level to achieve it.  It is anti-imperial, anti-military-industrial complex.

I am not certain what you are comparing “incremental change” to, but if you have in mind either violent revolution as a means to effectuate drastic, sudden change, you can count me out.  Likewise, ineffective, divisive third party campaigns that only serve to fracture the Left leave me flat.

If you actually took the time looking into PDA, perhaps coming to a meeting where you live, you would find that it is real democracy, from the bottom up, yet within the existing two-party structure. 

There is not a dime’s worth of difference in the substantive positions of PDA and either Nader or the Greens.  The difference is in tactics—with the Greens and other third party advocates insistent on being nothing more than perpetual whiners and losers—history’s footnotes.  The PDA strives to make history from within.