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 Populism Arising—but Will It Be the Killer Kind?Posted on Oct 26, 2008
By Chris Hedges The old assumptions and paradigms about capitalism and free markets are dead. A new, virulent populism, still inchoate, is slowly and painfully rising to take their place. This populism will determine the future of the country. It is as likely to be right-wing as left-wing. I watched these competing populisms flicker Thursday night at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, D.C., when I moderated a debate between independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader and Constitution Party candidate Chuck Baldwin. The two candidates come from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Nader, in essence, is a democratic socialist in the mold of Eugene Debs or Norman Thomas. Baldwin, a founder and minister at the Crossroad Baptist Church in Pensacola, Fla., is an evangelical, right-wing populist. Baldwin, like Nader, rails against corporatism and our involvement in foreign wars, wants to repeal NAFTA and denounces the curtailment of civil liberties. But Baldwin goes on to support the abolishment of whole departments of the federal government, such as the Department of Education. He calls for U.S. withdrawal from the United Nations and NATO, the elimination of the Food and Drug Administration, the outlawing of abortion and removing all restrictions on the purchasing of firearms. One of his catchier campaign slogans is: “To help keep your family safe and your country free, go buy a gun.” He wants to seal our borders, deny amnesty and social services to illegal immigrants and end birthright citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants. He calls for dismantling the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service, overturning the 16th Amendment and the personal income tax, and returning the American monetary system to hard assets: gold and silver. These candidates, while marginal figures in the current election, express the two forms of populism that will soon find a wide political currency. The anger toward our elites will morph into rage. These new populisms may not be articulated by Nader and Baldwin, but they will be articulated by people like Nader and Baldwin. The ideological foundations of free-market economics and a consumer society have collapsed. This collapse is hard for us to fathom. We are still in shock and denial. We cling to old structures of meaning and outdated words to describe them. We have yet to realize that all our political science and economic textbooks have become junk. We have yet to formulate a vocabulary to describe our altered reality. We grasp, on a subliminal level, that laissez-faire capitalism is gone, but we have not viewed the corpse, scheduled the funeral and read the last rites. Advertisement Millions of people will lose their homes. Jobs and savings will vanish. The government will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis. The greed of huge corporations, especially as they continue to cannibalize the country, will see them, and our elites, become the enemy. Exxon, to give one example, made $40.61 billion in profits last year while we struggled to fill the tanks of our automobiles and trucks. Oil and gas corporations, despite these profits, ruthlessly refuse to fill furnaces in winter when people cannot pay the bills. AIG, the insurance giant, after being saved with an infusion of $85 billion in taxpayer money, squandered $440,000 on an executive visit to a California spa. It spent $86,000 for its executives to hunt partridges in the English countryside and then blithely asked the U.S. government for an additional $38 billion. Elites, when they confuse the artificial court life of Versailles with the real world, die. These capitalist entities, grossly out of touch, incompetent, blinded by greed and power and morally and intellectually bankrupt, are committing collective suicide. “People are beginning to understand that when the economy is weak you have to put people to work,” Pollina, who is now outpolling the Democratic candidate, said. “We have a crumbling infrastructure in the state and a need for affordable housing. I have put forward three or four different ways to raise revenue to put people to work, including closing a loophole in our capital gains tax. I think people are attracted to me because they are realizing that this is now the most important thing we can do. We have to put people to work. We cannot continue to abandon them.” The flagrant corruption of our political system—hostage to the hundreds of millions of dollars handed out by the corporations and elites to Democratic and Republican candidates—will become clearer as our initial shock wears off. The new American will be about the basics—jobs, food, health care and a place to live. We will discard the old vocabulary, the one still used by the Democratic and Republic parties, and learn to speak in the fiery language of populism. We will turn with a vengeance on the 1 percent that has amassed more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined. The populist conflict will see a battle between a frightened and dispossessed majority and the corporations and elites who seek to ruthlessly cling to power and wealth.
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By KDelphi, November 3, 2008 at 1:00 pm #
She—thanks for that. TAO, too.
When Stephen Hawking was asked, “Are you afraid for teh survival of Planet Earth?” (I am para-phrasing here..), he replied, “No. The planet wil survive, and more life will spring up. It is mankind that will be shaken off like bothersome fleas”.
I wrote an essay on it once—silly, I know. (Marine Biology, along with experience diving)But, it was , to the effect, that the eternal sea wil remain largely as she is, amd will recover quickly when man is gone. The only choice we may have now, is to decide whether the next intelligent “builders” will consider whether we were a well-meaning, but flawed species, or, the biggest destroyers of life that this planet wil ever know”!” (There are many intelligent species here, but, we are the only ones who seem to feel the need to build—and BUILD)
I know that if you see man as more than another mammal, this would not make sense to you. But, when I did some volunteer work with wild marine mammals, people used to ask, “If cetaceans are so smart, why dont they build cities?” etc. My answer was alwasy, “Why in hell should they? They play, make love (they really do—you should see it!! They are NOT shy!), eat, raise their children,and never ruin their homes. Maybe they see us as the fools!”
Just some food for thought!
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 3, 2008 at 11:12 am #
Yes, Tao Walker, walker of the way, We ARE what we DO. Well-said and well given. Your wisdom is always appreciated, even though I try at times to fit what you say into my culture. Like putting snow boots on over shoes.
Eventually, the Earth will reclaim itself, in its own way. Often unnoticed, the Earth takes care of itself. It is big and humans are small. And beyond that the Universe will take care of it, in its own way. Humans are not mere interlopers but who are here on the Earth just as anything else is, but who will either learn to survive within the bosom of nature, or will begone. It is as simple as that! As conscious beings, humans can choose. They can choose to be authentic or fakes.
Report thisBy TAO Walker, November 3, 2008 at 10:46 am #
This old Indian is visiting relatives for awhile on the Sunrise coast of Turtle Island. Others here have responded helpfully to Dr. Knowitall’s concerns about the “shape” of things when this already foundering Titanic of a civilization slips beneath the tides of Time. His worries about the fate of each “individual,” clearly sincere, are nevertheless misplaced.
When any Living Being meets something that seeks to perpetuate its “self” by destroying everything “not” itself, that Being will respond according to His or Her given nature. Our Mother Earth, for example, having encountered just such a thing in the shape of our tormentors, has met them with (among others) that part of her natural immune system which is what in English goes by the name “Humanity.”
The tormentors in-turn, recognizing us for what we are here, have tried to co-opt us, and convert Humans to their own purposes….much like the agent of AIDS takes over a part of a Person’s immune system and tries to turn it against the “host” body. Also in a parallel fashion, “modern medicine” mistakes the activities of our immune system for some kind of “defense mechanism” engaged in a “life-or-death” struggle, a “zero-sum” battle with some “invading” organism.
Our tormentors don’t see, either, that the actual organic function of immune systems is to find The Way for us ALL to go on living together. This living process can take what seems, from an “individual” human perspective, a long time….many thousands of generations, in fact. In the course of it, and depending on how desperately “self”-contained some particular organism has become, there will be an awful lot of what might be called “attrition.”
Us free wild Human Beings don’t take any of this “personally.” None of it is any kind of “judgement” on us as Peoples or as Persons. This is the organic function of Humanity within the Living Arangement of our Mother Earth within the Song ‘n’Dance of Life Herownself. We ARE what we DO.
Right now the process has engendered, among other responses, a Human one that is “six-and-a-half billion strong”....a familiar eventuality in the presence of any “infection.” So will be whatever happens to those numbers when the “foreign” organism is either brought into balance with Life’s Way here or our Mother Earth “dies” (along with all Her Children) in the process of helping the tormentors get free of their extreme alienation.
“It’s nothing to get hurt about….”
HokaHey!
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 3, 2008 at 10:27 am #
Paracelsus, what if eugenics and euthanasia is requested by someone? Then no one is taking any authority over another but acquiescing to someone’ s wants. What if there is no judgment involved other than the one who wants to die because the pain is unbearable. and another helps them out? Let’s put all the past injustices aside. They obviously support your opening statement. But if that is not the case, the Great Chain of Being was a big philosophical lie, and it is because it is simply a metaphor for a hierarchical linking from basic physical elements to a deity, or prime mover and we all just don’t accept that idea even though Milton in Paradise Lost ranked angels, etc. The main idea is that everything one can imagine fits into the chain and that gives order and meaning to the universe. It is a patriarchal model that I know free-thinking women would not accept for one thing. It is the main argument for the existence of god. Any argument against the Great Chain then is an argument against god. There are several of those. Dawkins and Dennett are two who argue persuasively. However, Darwinism does not support the argument either way. Contrary to popular belief the Darwin studies neither proves nor disproves the existence of god.
If someone does not want their life managed in any way for some collective good, then it is only ethical that they leave the collective. The reason there is a collective is for its good. Morals are collectively established. Without the collective there is no need of morals. If everyman (or woman) was for themselves, then there is no collective. One does not need to be a herd animal to be part of a collective and want that collective to be healthy. Morals help provide health to a collective. Morals have to be carved out of perceptions and understandings of human value. Those morals are what becomes values in the plural.
I have not made up my mind as to the value of humans. My gut tells me every human has a worth and I have given it a great deal of thought. Does consciousness give mankind the right to life more than anything else? But then when I think about the millions upon millions of humans whose conscious lives have been ended by wars and personal greeds of men, I often think what was it like for even just one of those murdered to be alive, all those anonymouses. Was it just to be murdered? To have a life then not have a life? Then all the millions upon millions throughout the history of humankind who have died by natural disasters, or diseases, or malnutrition, what was it like for those people, what was their life like or worth? What was it like for them the moment before death? There are millions upon millions who have died that hardly anybody ever knew about, or nobody knew they even died. I sometimes see in my mind’s eye those piles of human dead the result of some oppression, natural or man-made. Seems like once a human is born, they are entitled to have a decent and nourishing life. But is that true? Do all men seek and deserve happiness? I think they do, but is it true? How do we decide? Religions give various answers, science gives others. If there is randomness to living or dying then what possible reason would a deity have to create that scene? Seems like as rational beings we need to talk about this more in open forums like this.
Report thisBy cyrena, November 3, 2008 at 6:36 am #
KDelphi,
I agree that ‘annoy’ should not equal ‘ban’. I haven’t visited the Common Dreams site is several months now, if only because time is limited for me. I pretty much confine myself to my first favorite, - truthout.org and here at Truthdig.
I also think these are good questions that you’ve proposed, (ones I had myself) in terms of the medical care coverage. In one respect, you’ve possibly counted on more coverage than there might be available. That would be in respect to those who are SO poor that they are on Medicaid. Well, not ALL of those that poor ARE on Medicaid.
I was without ANY coverage when I lost my job, and became disabled, even though I had ZERO income. I applied for Medicaid at the time, but I was turned down. (no real answer as to why). As it turned out, that’s right when I needed a whole bunch of medical care, including major surgeries to survive cancer. I did get medical treatment at the County.
Now, as for the thing about not being able to utilize any of these tax credits, I admittedly thought the same thing myself, because I’m not required to pay taxes on my Social Security Disability income. However, I’ve been learning more on that lately. Just because people on Social Security aren’t usually required to pay taxes or file a return doesn’t mean that they CAN’T file and get a refund, even if they HAVEN’T paid taxes, which is what McCAIN’S plan would supposedly allow for. (You said Obama’s plan involves tax credits, and I’m not sure how correct that is. It may involve some credits for specific groups, but his plan is simpler than that.) One can either keep the coverage they have, and pay less for the premiums. Or, they can purchase a plan from the government. If they can’t afford either, then I guess they stay on Medicaid as you’ve said. But, that’s not the same as having ZERO coverage or health care.
Anyway, I’m gonna check out more on this tax credit thing. I’ve honestly not considered it because of what you’ve already said. Most people on Social Security, (at least the kind they’ve paid into all of their employed lives) don’t pay taxes. But, I’ve been told that tax credits do allow them to file a tax return if they choose, in order to receive these credits.
Meantime, I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that the US ‘CANNOT do’ what Canada has done in terms of it’s medical coverage, so you don’t have to be convinced of that. I think the only think you have to consider (along with everything else) is that the US is NOT Canada!! We’re just not Canada anymore than we are Cuba, or France, or Germany, or Sweden, or the UK or any other place that operates a different system.
So, it’s not that we CAN’T, but that people who have voted in the past, and held all of the sway, have chosen NOT to make the health of their fellow citizens a priority. (and that of course IS stupid, but that’s not how they see it).
It’s a way of discriminating against whomever cannot afford whatever it is. It’s social Darwinism at its core.
In short, why would people, (particularly racists) want a dime of their tax dollars spent on the upkeep of others they’d just as soon see in the cemetaries anyway? (or at the bottom of the Ocean?)
So again, it’s not because we CAN’T provide more coverage to more people. It’s because the ones with the money don’t want to pay for it, and nothing is free. That’s a US mentality that has so far prevented us from having such a structure. It hasn’t ALWAYS been this way. This has come about in the past 30 or so years, because of the greed and the deregulation.
I don’t see how we can really put this in the ‘Blame Obama’ column, even though his fix is not the most preferred. It’s a step at getting us to where we need to be in terms of single payer medical care coverage. And again, I don’t think it’s *his* plan that relies on tax credits.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 2, 2008 at 7:16 pm #
Here are some stats on the homeless mess—I’m sure it is worse. I am having trouble finding anything more recent than 2004—when it was at 3% or 8 million.
http://www.policyalmanac.org/social_welfare/homeless.shtml
And here are stats on how many are considered “mentally ill”. http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm
http://www.samhsa.gov/matrix/statistics_homeless.aspx
These are stats on how many are veterans (800,000) and 45 % of those are classified as “mentaly ill”
http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm
10% of them are elderly
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/elderly.html
Children account for 39%:
http://lahsc.org/wordpress/educate/statistics/united-states-homeless-statistics/
Anyone who has a “problem” with the “re-distribution of wealth” (mostly ill-gotten, anyway—NOBODY deserves “$100 million” anyway), should think hard about those statistics.
If we have no “middle class”, we have no democracy.
How many “need to just get a job” (how many are working poor)
http://salt.claretianpubs.org/stats/homeless/home.html
19%, it seems. I cannot imagine getting up off of the ground, with no water, shower or coffee, to go to work at some greasy spoon. How can they ever advance??
And “near-honmelessness” ia an even bigger problem people living in sub-standard housing, vermin infested low income housing, ramshackle trailers and without plumbing, say, in Appalachia, as well as poor urban areas
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:hasLNFQCoH8J:www.thriventbuilds.com/media/files/Stats.doc+Statistics+on+homelessness+and+substandard+housing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Try 95 million. “substandard housing”—overcrowded, unsafe, and they wil all die too young. This is what supply side capitalism has produced. The fairly lame discussion of a slightly more progressive tax system, shoudl be NOTHING to any US citizen who has a home, food, heat, plumbing, and a reasonable expectation of medical care—even if only in an emergency.
Report thisBy Noah, November 2, 2008 at 6:27 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
It will be the killer kind. The American mindset is becoming more violent, self-centered and disconnected from the world every day. Obama may win this election, but when 10% of Americans become homeless due to not being able to pay their mortgages/rent, you’ll see a violent, brutal and oppressive totalitarian populism seize control of America. Just as there was a serious threat of nuclear war during the Cold War, there will be a serious threat of nuclear war if Palin’s ilk ever control the government.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 2, 2008 at 2:40 pm #
As to the “assissted suicide” issue—no one should have to ask the doctor to “kill” anyone—he can leave the means with the person who wishes to end their life without considerable pain. (The movie “The Sea Inside” was a good example)YOu have to realize that no one asked to be born. No one asks to be born where they are or in their circumtances.
cyrena—I se what you are saying, but “annoy” should not equal “ban”. If people do not like what others are saying—scroll past it.Obama’s plan involves tax credits. If you do not make enough money to pay taxes—what woudl it do for you? If you do not have enough income to “buy” ANY plan—how wil it help you? If you are so poor taht you are on Medicaid, you wil just stay there. And you wil not be abl to work, nor bring in any money. You wil have to continue with your lousy Med. HMO. If you pay $12,000 a yr for a plan, but , make only about $40,000—$2500 is not going to do squat. You cant take it off if you dont pay taxes.
The key word, I guess is “BUY”—there are a whole lot of people who just cannot BUY health care. I have no problem at all, esp. in regards to the recent total theft of the middle class by the elites,with taxing the rich to give SOMETHING back to the country which allowed them to pursue empty profits in the name of “freedom”.I stil am unconvinced that the uS “cannot” do what Canada ,etc. does. Like JFK said, “Some men see things as they are and say why. Some see things as they arent and say ‘why not’?” THAT, I submit, is what annoys people—because, every civilized country on the planet does some form of it, and the answers to why not are just not believable anymore. It is that “educating themselves about the world ” traveling people are doing more of—if they have the money
I wish people would just say, “We do not WANT to do it”. (I am not saying that that is you, cyrena)Like I said to the “guy” on CD—I would almost rather have a neo-con say to me, “Look, I dont give a damn”, then to go through years of tweaking, while peopel die needlessly.
It was 20 odd years ago that I availed myself of teh single payer system in Europe—if someone had told me that, at this late date.. the uS would stil being trying to “tweak” “free mkt. capitsliam”—I would have never come back! It is unfair, Peopl e are dying needlessly. We need to pass HR 676, and subsidize those that cannot pay.
That is what I think.,
Report thisBy Paracelsus, November 2, 2008 at 1:36 pm #
My aversion to eugenics and euthanasia has to do with those who think they have the authority to decide for whomever what is a good birth or a good death. To assume such a judgment is to have the power of a god. In the past kings and queens through the divine right to rule determined who lived and died. This was unquestioned for the most part in medieval times, because all life was part of the Great Chain of Being. Notice that the social ladder is a recent innovation of the modern era. Chains of their own nature are immutable. Once born at a certain link of the natural order, most people died at no higher rank than chain they were born into. So our betters used religion as a basis to cull their populations through warfare. Now we have the more certain and inevitable faith of science to intervene against individual will. We begin with the right to birth control and the right to die, but under the most propitious crisises we could see that rational utility theory would require that certain people not reproduce as duty, and submit themselves to death as duty to the state, for the individual is only a unit of an organic state, whose health overall is paramount. Whether such a death or sterilization is beneficial to bottom line of a health care corporation or is required as patriotic fealty to the state, the result is that the individual is disparaged and the collective is honored. Taking a hit for the team is not merely a cliche, it is a pledge of allegiance.
Such sentiments are antithetical to my libertarian loyalties. I am not a herd animal. I will not have my life managed for some collective good.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 2, 2008 at 12:41 pm #
The 2001 article The Dutch Way of Death, criticizes socialized medicine. It asks humankind to think about the value of human life. Does euthanasia have a place in human society? If we put aside the question of god and religion, which in a world where such ideas are not uniform and hence cannot drive the discourse, then we are forced to use our human consciousness to determine whether or not there is ever a moral moment when one may take one’s own life (suicide) or end life for another (euthanasia). It is a question of morality and whether human suffering because ending suffering through direct action are moral issues. If they are moral issues, then our community, our society, that makes the moral rules, must also decide the condition for morals. It also includes a discussion of what sufferiing means. All these are difficult matters to consider, but if such articles are thrown into the fray so to speak, then serious thought and vision of consequences are demanded. It is not meant to be simple. If it were simple, then there would be no need for the article nor our consideration of it.
What is the value of human life becomes a broad stroke question with different strands. For instance, not only inflicted dying for those who are extremely ill, but sending people to war for ideological reasons that change as regimes change and thus nullifies firm reason for such social killing, and it is social killing since the community does not stop the deaths due to war. Capital punishment is another reason for the legal taking of a life and whether it is ever moral for the community to take a life. The question of abortion falls in the same category as euthanasia and alleviant suicide, if it may be called that, but for very different reasons, although illness may be one of them. Reasons for abortion are not singular and needs to be discussed within the scope of what I call Death by Society. For a working definition, alleviant suicide is when the self-inflicting fatal act is due to suffering beyond bearableness.
So these are questions that need dialogue. And there is no better place than this forum. Since Paracelsus brought this into the forum with the 2001 article, it is my thought that he ought to start the discussion with a question.
The only suggestion I would make to those who would engage in such discussion, a symposium as it were, is that reasons be given for any position taken, and that they not include religious reasons since that will force you to confront your own deep psychological reasons: Why you hold that position.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, November 2, 2008 at 11:04 am #
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000390
The Dutch Way of Death
Socialized medicine helped turn doctors into killers.
by RICHARD MINITER
Saturday, April 28, 2001 12:01 A.M. EDT
AMSTERDAM—Seven years ago, Dr. Niko Wolswinkel was asked to kill someone.
On a Monday morning that he will never forget, the Dutch physician’s patient, a 77-year old woman dying from cancer, asked him to kill her.
As a purely legal matter, he knew he could do it. While euthanasia had not yet been officially decriminalized in the Netherlands—that happened earlier this month—in practice, it had. A string of high-profile court rulings in the 1980s made it nearly impossible for prosecutors to win euthanasia cases, and in the few instances in which doctors were convicted, their sentences were suspended. The Royal Dutch Medical Association had publicly approved of euthanasia, which was common even then. All that stood between euthanasia and his patient, Dr. Wolswinkel knew, was his own willingness to comply.
On that day, he searched his conscience. “It is very hard to speak of these things,” Dr. Wolswinkel said, with a quiet sadness in his voice. “Thirty years ago, this was something that people didn’t ask for.”
He couldn’t bring himself to kill his patient; doctors are supposed to be healers, not killers. And, as a Christian, he believed it was wrong to take into his hands the power of God. A few days later, his patient died naturally.
Most Dutchmen have come to a different conclusion; more than 80% favor “voluntary euthanasia,” according to recent polls. The Dutch Parliament recently passed a measure completely decriminalizing euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide. The Netherlands is now the first democratic nation on earth to permit, under law, doctors to kill their patients.
And they may be accustomed to doing so. Of the 130,000 Dutchmen who died in 1990, some 11,800 were killed or helped to die by their doctors, according to a 1991 report by the attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands. (The 1991 report is the only complete report on euthanasia practices by the Dutch government.)
Some of these deaths are the classic cases cited by right-to-die advocates: A terminally ill patient, in agony, demanding to “die with dignity.” But many are not. An estimated 5,981 people—an average of 16 per day—were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report.
...
Many old people now fear Dutch hospitals. More than 10% of senior citizens who responded to a recent survey, which did not mention euthanasia, volunteered that they feared being killed by their doctors without their consent. One senior-citizen group printed up wallet cards that tell doctors that the cardholder opposes euthanasia.
...
Some suggest that Dutch doctors are naturally more inclined toward euthanasia. That seems unlikely. In contrast to the physicians of every other Nazi-occupied country, Dutch doctors never recommended or participated in a single euthanasia during World War II, according to a 1949 New England Journal of Medicine article. Even Nazi orders not to treat the old or those with little chance of recovery were disobeyed. It only took a generation, essayist Malcolm Muggeridge noted, “to transform a war crime into an act of compassion.”
**********************************
If you trust the government to serve your best interests then give socialized medicine a try. What is strange is that you can die by euthanasia under the private system or the public system. “They” give you a choice, and that choice gives you all the sense of freedom in the world! LOL
Report thisBy cyrena, November 2, 2008 at 3:45 am #
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KDelphi,
Sorry to hear about all of the hassles and stress with the blogosphere as well as the family. I can only offer that these are such stressful times, for so many of us…I’d say the majority even. It produces I would suggest, different responses from all of us, both individually and collectively. In other words, we might not all be “affected” in the same way, or for the same reasons, (say like experience with the failed health care system of the past 3 decades at least). We might not even consciously KNOW what it is that produces these results that are the ‘symptoms’ of being in what has become an increasingly destabilized (and declining) society.
It’s been occurring across the land, and while we may not be experiencing the exact same components in each location, or at the same time, we’re all catching hell these days, and of course it’s been like that for much longer, for so many. So, I get what you mean here:
• “I told him I thought it was totally inappropriate to ask us to back a health care plan that wouldnt cov er so many, in honor of someone—it seemed like a guilt trip! I told him I had lost plenty of friends and family to this capitalist health system.”
So have I, (lost loved ones). And yeah, the system is horrific. It’s been developing that way in the past 30 years. It didn’t really start out that way, but that’s what it’s come to. It won’t fix overnight.
HOWEVER, on a slightly different note, (but not really) I’m more tuned in to what you are actually considering when you speak of a “health care plan that WOULD NOT cover so many”…
That’s like the key focus for me here, because I’m not sure which ‘specifics’ about the health care plan from Obama, LEADS YOU TO BELIEVE, that it would somehow FAIL to cover many people. It seems like a sort of very vague and general complaint, which may have some truth to it, but we don’t know without the details, and we don’t know if you’re talking about anything that compares to anything else.
In other words, how do we know that this plan ‘won’t cover so many’? Why shouldn’t it? What he’s offering is something very much on the order of what we have now as medicare. At least that’s the best comparison that I can make. In short, anybody currently covered under whatever they wanna be covered under, can keep it. (and believe it or not, there actually IS excellent health care being provided in some areas of the nation, at reasonable costs, and some folks are actually OK with the plans they have) That’s the first part. They can keep what they’ve got through their employers or however else, if they want, and they can look forward to a reduction in the amount of their premiums with Obama’s plan.
Report thisBy cyrena, November 2, 2008 at 3:43 am #
2 of 2
The 2nd part, (or additional option) is for those who don’t HAVE any insurance at all, and they will have the opportunity to buy into an excellent plan, (the kind that other civil servants have access to) at affordable sums of money. Affordable may (or may not, since I’m thinking of this as an example) be something like what Medicare recipients pay for their optional Part B health care coverage. Part A is included for Medicare recipients, and there is no charge for that part, which covers hospitalization related expenses. Part B is an optional plan that Medicare recipients can choose to purchase if they want. It amount’s to something around $100.00 a month (it’s been increasing) and that portion of the plan covers most of the other care (doctors/office visits/diagnostics/preventive care/etc).
A similar system would allow ANYONE to purchase this coverage, from the government. (which in effect is what Medicare is). It may cost more than what Medicare recipients pay, just because that system is connected to a state/public pension plan – Social Security…left over from the New Deal, and system that a huge portion of the population (boomers) are depending on. But, I think we’ve heard a guarantee that those premiums aren’t going to be anywhere near the outrageous and obscene sums that people are paying now, if they can pay anything at all. I spoke to a woman in the laundry room last week, he told me that she and her husband, (both retired after 40 years) are paying $800.000 a month for health care coverage. This is absurd.
So I said all of that to say this…How do we really KNOW that this will leave so many people still uncovered? I’m just asking and thinking out loud as part of the same exercise, because I can certainly see how it could still fail to cover a whole lot of people who have nothing through their employer, because they don’t have an employer, and therefore they don’t have any money to pay for premiums, no matter how ‘affordable’ they supposedly are. If you have no job, you probably have no money. That’s sort of just basic.
So, considering that there is NO plan on the table for covering those with NO money, and ALL of their children, there need to be some other programs that fill in the gaps until a new system can be phased in. Those are in place in many states and municipalities within them. Independent and non-partisan citizen groups haven’t waited on this. They’ve organized themselves and cut many of their own deals.
Having said all of that, I guess my point is that I believe the plans will continue to be tweaked over a long period of time, in order to ‘evolve’ into one that will service the overwhelming majority (not the simple majority) the overwhelming majority of the time. (none of this slipping through the cracks of a broken system). And, I think this is a damn good start to that decades’ overdue correction that we need.
I’m not claiming that this fixes it, or comes close, but I also know that people can, have, and should organize themselves as well, in conjunction with whatever the state intends to provide. THAT is the way to get the most coverage for the most people. It has to happen on more than one level, and it’s not such a simple operation, but it is doable.
I can understand that some may have become annoyed with your suggestion/comparison of what many of the European nations have done. We just aren’t them, size wise or in terms of government structure. Those are the kinds of logistical facts that cannot be escaped. If you want something closer to what those countries have, then the focus should be at your state level. That should be the case with all of us.
Meantime, as important as health care is, it is still only one of many crucial things to consider in casting a vote. Considering that, I admit I’m having a hard time understanding why at this point, there is still any question of Obama being the only choice.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 2, 2008 at 3:13 am #
She—Yes, it feels especially wierd, getting censored by people who used to belong to SDS or now belong to PDA.
It is not effective. Nor is it good for their tax exempt status!
I have not yet tried to log in—I wil let you know. I am happily reading the articles again—but dont tell them. It may be a mistake.! lol
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 7:52 pm #
Yeah, I’m going to go have a near beer (I’m diabetic) in honor of somebody’s birthday on another TD forum. But yeah, that CD thing sounds very very weird. Why would the webmaster even be involved on a forum site? There is something rotten in Denmark about that. I think I will write a letter to the CD Site Managers. I’ve done it before. How dare that webmaster! I am really pissed. I know TD throws people off now and then. Even if I was an opponent of some of them I think they have a right to be on the forum as much as anybody. I’ve written to TD about that. Course people just come back as somebody else. The whole thing is kind of silly. If I have a challenge with anybody I think I should have to defend my own ideas, I don’t want some website editing or banning my or anybody else’s remarks. I think there should be personal regard and respect. And sometimes when I feel insulted or disrespected, man I get really testy and bitchy. But I’m really a nice girl. Ha ha. Just an old chess player who hates to lose. Gotta go have that beer. Are you allowed back in to CD? Yeah, we’ll gang up on the next incident.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 1, 2008 at 7:37 pm #
She—when you go on CD, and some webmaster enters the thread to argue with people who might be disagreeing with Obama on some issues? Well, one guy jumps in and says “Well, health care is a conundrum” and I said, “Its not in these countries” and proceeded to list them.
We went around about that and how,people like him (who was one of my old heroes ) would be ok whether we had single payer or not and that some woudl not. I said, “What about the economies of EU and UK do yo not understand?”. I got logged off.
Then, the webmaster sent me , and some others, a webmail telling us to support Obama because his wife , who had died, wanted us to! She, you know my feelings (and experiences) about health care. I went off a bit.
I told him I thought it was totally inappropriate to ask us to back a health care plan that wouldnt cov er so many, in honor of someone—it seemed like a guilt trip! I told him I had lost plenty of friends and family to this capitalist health system.
The next day, I couldnt even open the site. It said, “sorry—ISP number ,...is banned”. I couldnt even link to articles on the site from other peoples’ posts!
Just today, I can read the articles. I havent tried to click on log in. Alot of good articles are on there, and, I had “friends” there. Nobody said anything about Nader supporters or others.
I guess I am allowed back in now. I dont know. But, it hurts. I dont have to agree with every policy!
So, I’ve been angry over it. If he banns me again—for this—lets all gang up on him! LOL
It is not just me—ther are entire webgsites for people “banned” from them. It is NOT the way to win support.
I’m sure you agree. I have to go drink a beer.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 7:16 pm #
KDelphi, from what other website are you banned? That is terrible. Bah humbug. I’d voice a complaint if I knew which one. Just for the hell of it. We have to fight censorship.
I’ve been reading your posts on Truthdig for sometime now, and over at CommonDreams and I’ve never found any of them worthy of censorship! Sorry to hear that happened.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 1, 2008 at 7:11 pm #
She—Its ok. I dont disagree—I may be taking out on you what I am experiencing at other websites. I just dont think that it helps us to shut out other voices.
I have no big argument with you. I did not mean to be mean—I never THINK that I am—but, then I look..
This election is very hard for some of us…I like Obama—who doesnt? (Well, I am starting to find out! Not anyone here—it is just , some of it, very personal ,and that is not right)We belong to Third Parties, but we dont want another GOP. We are not completeley happy with Obama—but some people are just crazy about him! And they need to let up. It seems that, if I even mention another candidate, people go ballistic.
My family actually has me crying over it. I’ll send them an email by Brian Moore or Nader—and they do all these CAPS back, about how I shouldnt be listening to anyone else, or I will “lose the vicotry for Dems”.
That is a little extreme. I have also been banned from one other website.
Peace, girl..ok?
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 6:58 pm #
oops, I messed up with an italicizing. I hope this fixes it. I might have to try again.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 6:55 pm #
Paracelsus, aren’t we talking about Biden? Or are you just using this opportunity to flood us with all your favorite websites? Now seems to me I questioned using The Centre for Research and Globalisation as not being able to be checked out. Are you trying to spin it a different direction now? Oh are you a slippery boy! You might check out my post Oct. 30, at 3:29pm again. But no matter. Also I am not arguing for or against Clinton. You can do that if you want but I am not interested in Clinton. I was not aware of what he knew or did at that time and I have not studied it in the least, so I can’t say anything about it. I am only interested in Obama and Biden.
Okay I checked out all the links you provided and read through all of them! I saw all the usual suspects but not a mention of Biden. Obama’s picture is shown twice on the Federal News Service (FNS) but I do not see the relevance of what you are talking about. And I’m not even sure now what it is you are]/i] talking about. Thank you for all the links, it was a lot of work for you and I appreciate your effort a great deal. Though I am not totally convinced by the CRG resource. I’ve checked them out before and was unable to trace their information. I do like to be able to follow leads through to reliable sources.
Paracelsus: What is the difference between a bunch of organized electronics and printed white paper? Perhaps Gutenberg should have had his printed books condemned, because the prose did not flow from the arthritic wrists of old monks. Reliability of the sources. Less tampering with CGI. Are monks handwriting news now? Which monastery could be important to know. Some are more reliable than others. Gutenberg? Is he still printing books? (Said with tongue in cheek, of course.)
Oh KDelphi, I see your post showed up after mine but I was agreeing with you! And I don’t really mind any disagreement as long as it is civil and we can agree to disagree whenever there is entrenched positions. And I take back the “get a grip” comment as I see it was not warranted. The Truthdig posting service is not as responsive as it could be. There is sometimes a weird time delay and comments can be misunderstood. I will ameliorate and amend my comments when that happens.
Report thisBy Sepharad, November 1, 2008 at 4:30 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Paracelsus: Regarding your October 29 post, and its interesting link that some Obama supporters should read lest they get carried away with higher expectations than he actually cares about delivering: This isn’t new stuff. Obama’s economic and healthcare positions and the advisors he was listening to early on are the primary reasons my husband and I were supporting Hillary Clinton so doggedly, and were dismayed when Obama won the primary.
However, economic columnist Paul Krugman has recently and repeately stated that as imperfect as Obama’s economic policy underpinnings and health plans are, McCain’s in contrast would be downright catastrophic and so the liberal enthusiasts who came to the dance with Obama are going to have to go through to the bitter end of the Presidential election with him. Having been put on notice by detailed analyses of Obama’s past and his friends and backers as early as ‘06 and ‘07(e.g. in both Harpers & Atlantic Monthly articles), all his die-hard supporters are just going to have to hope for the best. I’ve been supporting him since Hillary dropped out of the picture because McCain would be so bad for this country for so many reasons that there truly is no choice.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, November 1, 2008 at 3:16 pm #
@Shenomynous
Evidence and citations not from blogs please, Paracelsus.
There are blogs more trustworthy than books. The Global Research website has many sources cited for its essays. Michel Chossudovsky cites from such sources as ABC News.
The Biden 9-11 has the following cites:
Notes
1. Quoted in AFP, 18 May 2002.
2. There are numerous documents, which prove beyond doubt the links between Al Qaeda and successive U.S. administrations. See Centre for Research on Globalisation, Foreknowledge of 9-11: Compilation of key articles and documents, http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG204A.html May 2002, section 3.
3. U.S. Congress, Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base, Republican Party Committee, Congressional Press Release, Congress, 16 January 1997, http://globalresearch.ca/articles/DCH109A.html . See also Michel Chossudovsky, ‘Osamagate’, Centre for Research on Globalisation, http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO110A.html , 9 October 2001.
4. See Centre for Research on Globalisation, Foreknowledge of 9-11: Compilation of key articles and documents, op. cit. section 3. See articles by Isabel Vincent, George Szamuely, Scott Taylor, Marina Domazetovska, Michel Chossudovsky, Umberto Pascali, Lara Marlowe and Macedonian dailies.
5. See Bin Laden Whereabouts Before 9-11, CBS Evening News with Dan Rather; CBS, 28 January 2002, Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CBS203A.html Alexandra Richard, The CIA met bin Laden while undergoing treatment at an American Hospital last July in Dubai, Le Figaro. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html
6. The Boston Globe, 5 June 2002.
7. Fox News, 18 May 2002.
8. Ahmed Rashid, The Taliban: Exporting Extremism, Foreign Affairs, November-December 1999. See also Michel Chossudovsky, Who is Osama bin Laden, Global Outlook, No. 1, 2002.
9. Statement of Brian Ross reporting on information conveyed to him by the FBI, ABC News, This Week, September 30, 2001.
10. The Times of India, Delhi, 9 October 2001.
11. AFP, 10 October 2001.
12. Amir Mateen, ISI Chief’s Parleys continue in Washington, News Pakistan, 10 September 2001.
13. Federal News Service, 16 May 2002. Note that in the White House and CNN transcripts of Dr. Rice’s press conference, the words “ISI chief” were transcribed respectively by a blank “—” and “(inaudible)” . Federal News Service Inc. which is a transcription Service of official documents provided a correct transcription, with a minor error in punctuation, which we corrected. The White House transcript is at: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/05/20020516-13.html . All three transcripts were verified by the author and are available on Nexus. Federal News Service documents are also available for a fee at http://www.fnsg.com/ For details on the transcripts, see text box below.
14. New York Times, 14 September 2002,
15 Stuart News Company Press Journal (Vero Beach, FL), September 12, 2001).
16 Miami Herald, 16 September 2001
17 Washington Post, 18 May 2002
18 White House Bulletin, 17 May 2002
19 Miami Herald, 21 June 2002
20 The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, 17 May 2002.
21 Washington Post, 17 May 2002.
22 Washington Post 29 January 2002.
23 Washington Post, 27 January 2002.
24 Ibid.
25 Ibid.
26 Ibid.
27 Ibid.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=371
What is the difference between a bunch of organized electronics and printed white paper? Perhaps Gutenberg should have had his printed books condemned, because the prose did not flow from the arthritic wrists of old monks.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 1, 2008 at 3:03 pm #
She—If you think that I am the one who needs to “get a grip”, I am not the one cursing and putting !! all over and writing post after post to anyone who disagress with me.
I certainly did not mean to “insult everyone”. I just disagreed with you ,. That is all.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 2:59 pm #
I agree that censorship is wrong on any side! I have unsquinted my eyes. I’ve already voted my straight Democratic ticket here in redneckland.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 2:53 pm #
And KDelphi, what do you mean, “questioning you on YOUR website.” Utter nonsense. You insult everyone with that kind of junk statement. Oooooo, you trying to be scary? Yeah, I know, it’s Halloween season. But it is so defensive, uh, er, offensive, hmmmmm both? My favorite statement, get a grip.
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 1, 2008 at 2:46 pm #
She—I think we have one thing very much in common—I used to read your posts with great interest too.
I am tired of the censorship from the Left. It is small minded, and it wil come back to bite them in the ass.
If “pointy white hoods” is not being dogmatic, what is? Obanma is winning. Just let people disagree—that seems not to be too much to ask.
BTW—The link to Brian Moore was directed at jack, who had put something in his post about “socialists” (on one of his links that worked). I’m glad you watched it though.
It is a matter of personal opinon, but, in practical terms, and for working and poor classes he makes alot more sense than the Dems. That is what I think. I think we need to open up our politics. As it is, we just end up with only about a third of the population happy with our leadership at any one time.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, November 1, 2008 at 2:36 pm #
Evidence and citations not from blogs please, Paracelsus. And KDelphi, maybe you need a new pair of reading glasses. Your interpretation of what I said is off the edge. What kind of sliver of truth do you suppose is in the conspiracy theories that come out of the roach woodwork? Some people will believe even slivers of truth, if one could even find the truth with a pair of tweezers! What a lot of bull crap, and I usually read your posts with interest, but maybe they need read with squinty eyes too? Wrath? Criticisms do not show wrath unless that is what you wish to characterize it as. Apparently all the Tri-Lateral Commission ghouls are not dead yet!
You need to reread that statement I made. I don’t care if Powell is selected or not. I didn’t say I was. I just said he probably was up for a Cabinet position. And I didn’t mean to be dogmatic about the white sheets. Pardonnez-moi. It was Halloween and I got carried away. Sure others than the white pointy hat crowd could be against a Powell cabinet position. Yeah, and let’s be like the white-pointy hats and kill (oops, convict) them all, all the Bush Bastards! Right KDelphi? Shades of guilt just don’t mean a damn thing, does it? So civilized. Anyone trained as a Catholic I don’t trust about women’s issues, so there. So you don’t trust who you think are bogeymen and I don’t trust the ones I think are. But I’d give him a chance. Why doesn’t he have more supporters? Say Labor? Women? Looks like he became a Socialist in 2007 so he doesn’t have much of a history as a Socialist. He certainly says all the right things, or rather left things. Oh, I don’t know. I guess the Greens just wasn’t home enough for him??? There is something wrong, no charisma maybe?? The Nader Syndrome? The Kucinich? Maybe you can explain it?
Report thisBy KDelphi, November 1, 2008 at 1:58 pm #
Woah!! Nervous about the “changing of the guard” much? Do NOT PANIC! THINGS WILL NOT CHANGE!Ever seem the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace of Herborg in Denmark? Its the same…the people change—the monarchy remains.
She—I think you are really getting carried away here—I know what wrath I risk by questioning you on YOUR website—but, jeez! I think that the Tri-Lateral Com,blah, blah is all pretty much crap. But, there is usually a sliver of truth to these things or they disappear. In any case, what is your great anxiety over someone believing it?? If we dont want Powell in a Cabinet position , we must be wearing “pointy white hoods”??Thats a new low for you , girl!
I dont want anyone that had anything to do with this Administration (or Clintons , hopefully) in DC anymore!! If the Dems dont have the balls to convict them, they an at least make them leave! Powell, Paulson, Rubin, ALL OF THEM! I dont give a damn what color they are! You need to stop crying wolf on the race issue! It makes the argument less believable when it really happens!
If everything is “about race” , then nothing is about rzce. Then , we lose honest dialogue about it. Why would you pick up on the one characteristic about Powell—that he is Af. Am?It seems to me to just be rationalizing about anything Obama chooses to do. I suspect that alot of people will do it throughout his first term.
I am voting for the lesser of two evils, and anyone who is honest with themselves , who is not voting Third Party, should get real.People who do not agree are “insane” , “kooks”. You can do better than that. Biden is very pro-Israel, but every fricking president we’ve had has been, to the point of ignoring any wrongs that are commited by Israel. My brother in law is Jewish and he think that Biden is a Zionist. Lieberman too. So is all of DC, for that matter. The problems I have with Biden are—general hawkishness, and his very neo-con type fiscal and monetary policies. The Bankruptcy Bill. The credit card bil. the Wall St. Bailout.
There is alot of internet censorship, and it is bad for everyone. There are entire chat rooms set up as “people banned from this or that room”—and alot of them are so-csalled “liberal”. What do you want—an echo chamber? I do not think that that is the neo-liberal legacy we want as “progressive”—ok, what the hell would you prefer I call it? So far, TD is about the most open site I’ve seen for not censoring. I hope that it continues. You should follow their lead.
BTW—most of the links do not work, jack. But, “socialism” (in its true form) is totally against censorhisp. See presidential candidate Brian Moore on c-span.org uesterday, on Washington Journal. THAT is what Socialism is. YOu might be pleasantly surprised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFd4-6sTCM
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 8:23 pm #
@Shenonymous
Aren’t you curious as to what Biden and the ISI Chief, General Mahmoud Ahmad were talking about? This General Ahmad funded the 9-11 hijackers. They met right on the morning of 9-11-2001. Don’t you get a bad feeling about it?
Report thisAll you can do is attack the messenger. I am sure you can find more sources than the Centre for Research and Globalisation. I could try to give up more sources of the same info, but then you would just shoot the messengers again. I had encountered the same tactic with imperialistic Republicans whenever I attacked US foreign policy during the 90’s and 80’s. The Nation, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, The Progressive would all be attacked as being incredible sources by conservatives whenever I spoke on the dirty wars in Latin America. Now I find the same tactic used at a liberal website. Don’t worry you are not the only one. There is another rabid Obama supporter who uses the ad hominem attack quite regularly, whenever I point to the pervasive criminality of the Federal Government. The 9-11 official story is what holds as a common thread of agreement among the old moldy traditional liberal-conservative establishment.
By Shenonymous, October 30, 2008 at 7:29 pm #
It should have been obvious when Powell endorsed Obama there was going to be Cabinet position, most likely Secretary of Defense. Probably to counteract the utter crap Rumsfeld dished out when he ran the country. Oh well, what goes around come around. The only ones who would be bothered by this move are the ones with white hoods over there heads.
And I thought the Trilateral Commission conspiracy was dead like at the end of the 70s. Man that is an old group, they must all be ready for the grave by now. Good grief people get a grip. Can’t really get Obama so let’s go after Biden! Oh boy. Nothing that was said has any legitimate evidence.
All the vehement accusations just coming out is last minute desperation. It is soooo humorous. How anybody could say Obama is part of a right-wing exploitative capitalist machine, blah blah blah, is absurd. Is that some lame attempt to get right-wing votes or somethin’? Hey, Paracelsus, have you been sittin’ on the Biden crap all this time? You are not offering any evidence for your wild accusations. What the f*ck is the Centre for Global Research whatever? Why ought anything they print online be believed as true? What is to say their resident reporters tell the whole truth and not a biased one? What are their credentials? There are some things printed there that I would like to believe but how can any of it be checked out? You can’t. It is another so-called independent news instrument that needs just as much investigation as Harbinger Research owned and operated by FMG Financial Media Group; or the conservative Media Research Center; or NewWatch Canada, ad infinitum.
And the old Ron Paul Hemp Save the World. That is funny. Save the world with marijuana? Well. Let’s all get high and politics won’t be needed at all, neither would Dr. Paul be needed! Good grief again, get a grip again! What is wrong with you numb nuts? Legalizing marijuana is one thing and I can’t say I’d be against that, but running the f*cking country is something else. Are you suggesting that 300 million people get high, uh all at one time? Yes you are! Are you insane? Yes!
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 4:56 pm #
@justaguy
http://hempsavetheworld.wordpress.com/2008/02/26/barack-obama-member-of-the-council-on-foreign-relations/
To be truthful Obama does not have any hard ties to the CFR as concerns a membership roster or such. His wife is a member of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations, and the membership of that organization does have some of its numbers as members of the CFR in NYC.
BO’s campaign does get huge donations from internationalist Wall Street banking cos. Biden and Zbig do have strong ties to globalizing NGO’s such as the CFR, and the Trilateral Commission. I expect another war will “come into view” as the Obama administration is “tested” by “crisis” in the “first year” of the administration. It is all very well scripted years in advance. Biden speaks in such cliches as does Powell. It would a real kick in the head to the naive peacnik Obama supporters to see Rectum Powell in a cabinet post of Obama’s administration. So many cliches here- the trickery has become so old hat that these wise men of the establishment don’t even try to use original sounding verbiage for another planned out crisis.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm #
Did Obama Nominate a Criminal to VP?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqtwtZWNas
Report thisBy justaguy, October 30, 2008 at 4:00 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena, if your political spectrum is governed by the Repub.v Dem paradigm, then I understand that you have no use for the left/right distinction. But this actually proves my point rather than yours.
There are very many people on this planet who are, in varying degrees, anticapitalists. We are the left and Barak Obama is part of the right wing exploitative capitalist machine or the ruling class.
It is ironic that you suggest I do more research when you then use anti-intellectual epithets against others as “conspiracy theorists” and “kooks”.
Perhaps these people have a) a different point of reference from outside your narrow view of the political/power elite spectrum orb] they’ve actually done more research than you.
Barak Obama is a member of the CFR (a bankers forum), his main campaign contributors are Wall St banks and banksters, he voted for the so called “bail out bill”.
He is, in short, a Wall St shill.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm #
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10099
Is Biden a Co-conspirator to 9-11-2001?
Biden and the ISI chief
Biden was one of several top Washington officials who met with Lieutenant General Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) on and around September 11, 2001.
The ISI is a foreign branch of the CIA. “Al-Qaeda” is a covert operation that is managed by Anglo-American military-intelligence. Ahmad, the “9/11 money man” who delivered funds to alleged lead suicide hijacker Mohammed Atta prior to the attacks, met personally with Biden on September 13, 2001.
This case, detailed in Michel Chossodovsky’s Political Deception: Missing Link Behind 9/11, remains one of hundreds of smoking guns revealing direct US connections to 9/11, for which Biden has never provided a credible explanation.
At the same time that he was meeting with a man directly connected to the alleged hijackers, Biden was among the loudest and most bellicose voices joining Bush-Cheney for the bombing of Afghanistan, in retaliation for 9/11. Biden expressed an interest in “personally shooting Osama bin Laden”. Not surprisingly, John McCain expressed the same post-9/11 bloodlust, in his infamous editorial, “War is hell. Let’s get on with it.”
Biden’s tune has remained unchanged, to this day. He wants to “finish the fight against al-Qaeda and the Taliban”, and (in language that appears to be the new neoliberal “talking point”) “take out the ones who actually attacked us on 9/11”.
The fact that Biden and McCain, two major shills for the “war on terrorism” lie, are vying for White House power speaks for itself.
When recently confronted by an independent journalist about his meeting with Mahmoud Ahmad, Biden offered a series of non-sequitors, and then had his security guards escort the inquiring individual away.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm #
Biden Gets Bold
It seems that we are going to get a huge doses of evil with the new administration. It is clear that the establishment ran a dead horse against Obama-Biden. What does an evil empire do when it is bankrupt? It goes to war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOwb9l0DtRA
http://www.prisonplanet.com/rand-lobbies-pentagon-start-war-to-save-us-economy.html
Report thisBy jack, October 30, 2008 at 2:19 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Thanks, Cyrena, I’m disciplined again. That’s why I come to Truthdig, to be disciplined. And, believe me when I write that it’s not “all about me” as it too often is with too many, but since you’re talking to me (among others)...am I really a kook? No idea what that really means. I am old enough to remember “Kookie, Kookie, Lend me Your Comb,” regretfully I might add, as it reveals to some degree how much of my youthful brain was damaged by TV, but then only one of my parents had even a high-school education…not much reading done there.
Am I a fool? Probably, since I’m a career artist and not making trashy pop or vulgar, pointless, post-modern deconstructions, but rather, fine performing art, which means I’m going broke (to the point of probably just leaving the country [for good this time] likely within a year), so the answer is YES - especially in this - the most philistine nation of all time - a place that doesn’t need artists, only celebrities.
And before you smack me down again for not being “registered” at Truthdig, I will again expose myself for full inspection. Write, call or even hunt me down if you want to literally smack me down. You may prefer to see me as a “kook,” and for producing a piece like this http://www.thefall01.info/- an “Iliad” for our time, it wouldn’t surprise me if you did; but, my full disclosure should at least prove that I’m not paranoid - http://www.jackgabel.com/
Thank you, Truthdig, for all the engaging exchanges, adieu à jamais.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 30, 2008 at 2:15 pm #
It would be hard not to acknowledge a New World Order of some sort as traditionally human rights friendly governments are turning dictatorial. Australia has imposed a Chinese style internet on its citizens.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24568137-2862,00.html
AUSTRALIA will join China in implementing mandatory censoring of the internet under plans put forward by the Federal Government.
The revelations emerge as US tech giants Google, Microsoft and Yahoo, and a coalition of human rights and other groups unveiled a code of conduct aimed at safeguarding online freedom of speech and privacy.
The government has declared it will not let internet users opt out of the proposed national internet filter.
The plan was first created as a way to combat child pronography and adult content, but could be extended to include controversial websites on euthanasia or anorexia.
Communications minister Stephen Conroy revealed the mandatory censorship to the Senate estimates committee as the Global Network Initiative, bringing together leading companies, human rights organisations, academics and investors, committed the technology firms to “protect the freedom of expression and privacy rights of their users”.
Mr Conroy said trials were yet to be carried out, but “we are talking about mandatory blocking, where possible, of illegal material.”
The net nanny proposal was originally going to allow Australians who wanted uncensored access to the web the option of contacting their internet service provider to be excluded from the service.
Human Rights Watch has condemned internet censorship, and argued to the US Senate “there is a real danger of a Virtual Curtain dividing the internet, much as the Iron Curtain did during the Cold War, because some governments fear the potential of the internet, (and) want to control it”...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c72_1200184010
In reference to the Alberta “Human Rights” Commission in Canada.
Report thisBy cyrena, October 30, 2008 at 5:18 am #
Paracelsus writes:
• “I wonder if Mr. Hedges thinks of people who point out the NWO conspiracy as dangerous kooks.”
I don’t know if Hedges does, but *I* do! Actually, I don’t know that all of you are necessarily ‘dangerous’, but you’re definitely kooks. And, you even provide an example here…
“..Please note H.G. Wells used the term New World Order for the title of one of his books. If the man has enough credibility to have his 2 volume series, Outline of History, stocked in libraries, then why should anyone be labeled a kook to use a term he popularized, New World Order?”
OK, let’s see if we can follow this. H.G. Wells used the term for the title of one of his books. Gee. Got any idea about how many others have used this term in published work over the past 4 decades? 10 minutes on even an inferior data base would turn up hundreds of thousands of ‘hits’ from A-Z in terms of books and journals. And yeah, they’re stocked in libraries. And no, just because something happens to be in a library doesn’t provide any ‘credibility on the use of the term by any given person on the planet.
For instance, one might hear that term repeatedly in any course on international law/foreign relations, but it wouldn’t mean the same thing as it does coming from Bush I, who used the term frequently himself. Internationalists and human rights scholars see a New World Order as equals being treated equally. (as in sovereign nations) instead of the past half-century of ‘to the victor go the spoils’ ideology of post WWII, where the US reigns over the world, (and for the last 8 years in violation of all of those laws) especially since the former Soviet Union is not the rival that it was back in the day.
Now one can also hear this same term from the conspiracy theorist kooks that you mention. The Ron Paul and Alex Jones types who believe in the NAFTA Superhighway as well, even though that’s been proven to be about as real as the Wizard of Oz. Even John McCain claims to believe in this fictional highway down the middle of the US. And then they’ve got us all using one currency for North America. Fat chance. Do you honestly think the rest of North America wants to be drug down by our worthless USD? Please. I think not..even though they have been anyway.
Anyway, all of that stuff is a mythical conspiracy. Now of course that’s different from the 9/11 conspiracies, because we know 9/11 ‘happened’, and we know it was perpetrated by a conspiracy, so we just have to choose from the various theories that abound. But I’m not buying the Wizard of Oz style new world order that you guys are trying to sell. That’s not to say that I’ve completely ignored any of these various components like the Bilderberg Group, or the top (and mostly secret) 1% of the global population that controls most of the money and the resources. But, most of that isn’t new or even particularly remarkable. What I don’t think most folks will fall for is the consistent attempts to put Obama in the midst of this long established (and mostly invisible) ‘secret society’, when his life is an open and well documented book, making it easy enough to disprove.
Naturally I wonder why people make this shit up, but then again…I know why they do. Desperate people do desperate things.
I still don’t know if Hedges thinks you all are dangerous kooks, but then, he’s not such a great judge of that sort of thing anyway. He’s still willing to do a protest vote for Nader, DESPITE the horrific end it could bring by tilting a close count to McPalin. So there you have it. Things have deteriorated to the point where even the so-called ‘Intelligentsia’ class has lost it…just flipped right out.
Happens to the best of us I guess, and often affects the rest of us. That can really be the shits, if you think of the last two elections
Report thisBy cyrena, October 30, 2008 at 3:11 am #
By justaguy, October 29 at 6:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“..Cyrena, Barack Obama is no left wing populist. He is a Wall St shill. The Democratic Party has no left wingers…”
~~~~
So justaguy, you know this…HOW??? (especially since you’re ‘justaguy’?)
The reality is that Obama is most certainly a populist in the purest political sense of the term. The left and right arguments(directional measures as adjectives) don’t much impress me in today’s ever- changing political structure. In fact, those terms have been meaningless since the Thugs highjacked us in The Coup of 2000.
But, Chris Hedges still likes to use those ‘postions’ on the linear form to measure and place ONLY TWO political ideologies in relative position to each other. It’s really quite a narrow and limiting view of the political spectrum as it should ideally be viewed.
Admittedly, he’s not alone. There are others who are stuck in the same very narrow cracks. The either/or types. But, there is some reason why they WANT to be in that narrow ass crack. No doubt there are different reasons for different people.
Regardless, that doesn’t change the fact that Barack Obama IS a populist politician, and he didn’t get this far in building exactly the kind of movement that populists can build, by standing in one place literally or figuratively. So no, he’s not lolling about on some spot on the East-West axis. Most populists don’t have that kind of time.
As for him being a shill for Wall Street, that’s so lame as to reveal your ‘issues’. Give us a break for Christ’s sake. Anyone who’s done even the bare minimum of research on these candidates knows that Obama “could” have been far more than a shill for Wall Street. If he’d wanted that, he could have BEEN Wall Street, like every other top scholar leaving Harvard Law Suma Cum Laude and as the Editor of the Harvard Law Review to boot!!
So yep, Wall Street tried to grab him, and oh how tempting that is for many…especially with thousands and thousands of dollars in student loans to pay back. So in the West, (meaning the US as well as Western Europe) most Ivy League graduates who CAN do Wall Street, definitely DO!! Historically, those who practice public service law are either independently wealthy, or they have a genuine interest in public service in whatever form it presents itself, depending on the location.In other words, a populist/humanitarian type. That’s because public service just doesn’t pay as much..not even close. Same with academics, which is how Obama spent twelve years before entering politics full time. He could have accepted a fast track offer for tenure there at UC, but turned it down as well. It’s probably worth adding, (for those who obviously haven’t taken the time to research it) that an emphasis on Constitutional Law and the Civil Rights part of it, along with his undergraduate focus on International Relations wasn’t planned as a Wall Street career.
Anyway, that accusation is really lame. Maybe you should just read up a bit.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 30, 2008 at 1:06 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
WriterOnTheStorm—“Umesh from the structure” was one of the many things Alfred Korzybski wrote in the semantics field, but the overweening principle he offered was “The map is not the territory.” Reading and getting that concept was one of those thunderbolt moments, and has guided nearly every type of research I’ve engaged in the last 35+ years and has never led me off track.
cruxbaby—You’re right, Hedges doesn’t understand the history of rural populism in this country anyway and it IS annoying that he doesn’t. Unfortunately, though, “populist” is one of those words that lends itself to misunderstanding, misusing and stretching every which way. Its damned Latin root is the problem. Much too easy and open to misinterpretation.
Paracelsus, how can you not see the nuttiness of caja square’s conspiracy theories yet be so rational and articulate otherwise? (Maybe it’s in the water or just wafting around in popular publishing—knights templar, masons, da vinci code and son of da vinci code. Sheesh.)
jackpine, you’re definitely right that not just politicians but journalists have let us down badly. After some years I bailed out of newspaper journalism when it became obvious that it was getting harder and harder to do it the way they said it should be done in journalism school—i.e., get the truth, get it right, get it out as it is. (In fairness to the profession, TV news and less people willing or able to read long complicated articles made it harder for publishers to finance the kind of reportorial niche I was in—long term, sometimes covert investigative reporting. Takes a lot of money, a lot of time, to develop sources and trust, let alone the big picture, then follow every lead till exhausted and swoop in all loose ends like crazy). Got into history instead because at least you control your own research and the use of it—but pprobably right that the sky is or is not falling but life will go on one way or the other, but Paracelsus’ advice to grammaconcept—- basically get off the political/industrial grid whenever possible is ranching and farming .
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 11:27 pm #
@shenomynous
An interesting proposition but in this case the teenager just doesn’t have the brain to have been hired by nefarious Democrats. But he does have the rabid mind of a right-winger. Just read the article and see the pictures. They are more convincing than movie scripts.
A brain would just get in the way. A good patsy or zombie should be relatively brain dead. It does not have to be a group of Democrats. Perhaps the agenda needs a good punch in Congress for some new internet crimes bill, or a hate speech code. Jane Harman, the original sponsor of HR 1955, could use this incident to great advantage. Joe Lieberman could also use this to push for some police state measure. In the Nazi era, some retarded man was posed as a Communist, who was behind the Reichstag fire. In era where Bill Clinton finds free speech to be too much, I expect to see more of these incidents with the usual suspects, demonic, neo-aryan, nazi, klan-bake. It’s the same tactic with an updated Emmanuel Goldstein.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 29, 2008 at 11:00 pm #
Yeah, you’re right, Paracelsus. I loved The Truman Show, and Manchurian Candidate. But Laurence Harvey’s mom was Angela Lansbury, a real bitch. ( I really love Angela Lansbury but she made a great bitch who is killed by her own son, ta tah). And Truman Burbank actually escapes finally from Seahaven. So you are proposing that art imitates life and life imitates art. An interesting proposition but in this case the teenager just doesn’t have the brain to have been hired by nefarious Democrats. But he does have the rabid mind of a right-winger. Just read the article and see the pictures. They are more convincing than movie scripts.
Report thisBy justaguy, October 29, 2008 at 10:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Cyrena, Barack Obama is no left wing populist. He is a Wall St shill. The Democratic Party has no left wingers.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 10:40 pm #
@Shenonymous
Try not to forget Paracelsus that jaundice is a disease.
Non sequitur time. If the McCain camp do a put up job, then why not assume the same of the other side? I don’t see any good guys here.
Most of these right wing extremist groups are made up of FBI agents. I recall an interview where an ex-British intel agent said that the highest levels of the Orangemen and the IRA were coordinated by British military intelligence. Years of bloody conflict were underwritten by Her Majesty’s government. Is it so hard to imagine the same sort of domestic wars being coordinated by our own government?
The movie, The Truman Show, illustrates excellently the manipulation of “reality”.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 29, 2008 at 10:05 pm #
Try not to forget Paracelsus that jaundice is a disease.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 10:02 pm #
@Shenonymous
WASHINGTON — Two young men who are believers in “white power” have been arrested and charged in Tennessee in what federal officials described as a plan to assassinate Senator Barack Obama and kill black children at a school.
Ever since I saw the movie, The Manchurian Candidate, I have viewed these gunmen incidents with a jaundiced eye.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 29, 2008 at 9:47 pm #
Initially pendulum swings are radical until the ticking evens out and the paces become measured and regular. It is a law of physics that has a similar, analogous application to radical political changes where large numbers of conscious people are concerned. In spite of the comparatively small number of ‘conscious” people in America with respect to the total number of citizens, they are enough to engage in the radical agitation game, right and left players. It is a kind of lemming effect, a common human frailty. With just a little tweeking, thebeerdoctor has a realistic perception, “just because these people take them seriously, does not mean that [everyone else will].” I am beginning to think there is too much truth being circulated. And jackpine savage Chicken Little reminder is that we need to remain sober and not get swept up by inflammatory rhetoric and that perhaps Mr. Hedges’ reporter’s eyes see more than is there.
samosamo, they have already come agunnin’ for Obama:
New York Times reporter Eric Lichtblau
Published: October 27, 2008
WASHINGTON — Two young men who are believers in “white power” have been arrested and charged in Tennessee in what federal officials described as a plan to assassinate Senator Barack Obama and kill black children at a school.
Insanity arises within an insane milieu. What else can I say?
In other words, writeon, right wing socialism, i.e., National Socialism is like German Nazi Fascism, right?
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 8:48 pm #
An Example of Dangerous Rightwing Populism?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSVDM2LZhOs
Please watch the entire clip all the way through. Right and left are two wings of the same nasty vulture. I wonder if Mr. Hedges thinks of people who point out the NWO conspiracy as dangerous kooks. Please note H.G. Wells used the term New World Order for the title of one of his books. If the man has enough credibility to have his 2 volume series, Outline of History, stocked in libraries, then why should anyone be labeled a kook to use a term he popularized, New World Order?
Report thisBy Oraculate, October 29, 2008 at 7:26 pm #
According to Mr. Hedges populism in America will turn into populist rage of significant proportion. That once coalesced this critical mass will aim to exact “vengeance” against a ruling elite. What Mr. Hedges calls “vengeance” in hyperbole deserves manifest in constructive action to correct an acknowledged imbalance that has subverted the interest of the general population. Such action is not unwarranted and may well be our best chance at an equitable future. He implies that calling to account your government or institutions is somehow vengeful. He implies a committed follow through in response to elite corruption is the trigger for a Christian Fundamentalist takeover. It sounds similar to the event sequencing they use to predict End of Days. In doing so he would discourage civic engagement by a whole segment of the population that wants reform not Fundamentalist apocalypse. His is a warning to do nothing.
Whatever your political stripe, left or right, this piece rightly announces socialism. While the spectacle unfolds what is largely unacknowledged is our incremental movement toward socialism. The global economy will continue to lean into America until it is diffused into the homogeneity beloved by central planners and bureaucrats who dislike individuals and individuality. I doubt this will be conducive to Christian Fundamentalism.
Report thisBy cyrena, October 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm #
Part 1 of 3
By steve conn, October 29 at 9:08 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
• “Ralph Nader’s Experience with the Democratic Party and its operatives shows us that the Party would rather drive populists on the left into oblivion rather than assist in grassroots organization”
OUCH!! Let’s go over this steve, to see what you’re really saying, and whether or not there might be anything more than rhetoric here. (I think not). In REALITY, the movement to elect Barack Obama has been the LARGEST GRASSROOTS effort in my entire life. (and I’m not young – President Obama will be inaugurated on my 56th birthday). In all honesty and sincerity, those of us who have been possibly more ‘observant’ (or even hyper-observant as in my case) have recognized these grassroots efforts as nothing short of phenomenal, and it doesn’t really take much more than a couple or so real ‘exposures’ or even discussions with each other, to get the realistic sense of what has taken place over the past 2 years. So under no circumstances do we see ourselves being driven into oblivion, but rather the opposite. We’ve moved from the fringes of the long disenfranchised and apathetic, to the center where we can be involved and calling the shots ourselves.
Report thisThe Internet has accomplished this in ways that we might never have dreamed 3 decades ago, and that’s where the Obama movement was so enormously successful, and brilliant with its usage. The technology has allowed this in ways that were never possible before. HOWEVER, it is only because Barack Obama himself – the man – the person, the leader/organizer/politician has this built into his experience. It’s what he’s been doing for over 20 years, and I suspect he’s hyper-observant as well.
This particular component of it (the technology) was cemented for me in a talk by Willie Brown, a long time politician here in California. (State Assembly leader for nearly 2 decades and Mayor of San Francisco). Possibly as important if not more important than the ability to raise funds for getting the message out, (otherwise known as campaigning – sometimes) is the organizational apparatus that it provides, and the Obama movement has used it to do exactly that. There are literally millions of volunteers and others within this movement that have been connecting with each other over the past 2 years, and it’s been well sustained, and constantly growing..all because of GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZATION!!! Grass roots organization absolutely MUST be *INCLUSIVE* rather than ‘EX-clusive’ to be successful. Again, that’s what the Obama campaign has been about, because that’s what HE has always been about.
By cyrena, October 29, 2008 at 6:28 pm #
Part 2 of 3
Ralph Nader has NOT been able to accomplish this, (for a variety of interrelated reasons) but in part because he actually *IS* far more EXCLUSIVE!! What passes for grass roots involvement in Nader’s case, would be the various groups that he’s formed under the umbrella of one of more NGO’s, and before that, he was a CONSUMER advocate/specialist. All of that is *GOOD* (most though not all of the many NGO’s have honorable human rights priorities at their core). But, it’s not enough if one is unwilling to connect and/or engage with the current system, (whatever it happens to be) to create a better one. That’s the problem with Nader, and it *IS* a problem, because his efforts become divisive and destructive instead of productive.
In short, he’s just not a team player, and I apologize for using that awful cliché born in the bowels of the corporate slave plantations; ‘team player’. I hate it for those reasons, but it is appropriate here, in respect to Ralph Nader. It’s like he’s been around all of this time, and has done a lot of work on behalf of many people and has some great ideas. So, he’s like the guy that you really wanna have on your team, just because he’s super talented in one realm or another of the whole process. But, he’s also the one that says the only way he’s willing to help us build the house, or whatever the project may be, is if *HE* and *ONLY* he, gets to determine WHAT we will build, and HOW it will be built. When faced with that ‘choice’ in any other situation, we’d generally be reluctant to take them on. Teammates like that all to often become genuine pains in the asses, or wanna be prima donnas so to speak.
On a more juvenile level/mentality, it’s the same as saying, “Ok, I’ll be your friend, but you have to join “MY” group, and pledge loyalty to *me* and you can’t associate with any of your other friends or acquaintances. Sounds like a gang leader recruitment rap. That’s the reality of the thing.
As for the black churches being ignored by the Democrats, (or at least the Obama Democrats) that is a falsehood, and the irony of it doesn’t escape me, considering the adamant views of other long time posters on this site. There are a few who have major issues with the fact that Obama is willing to fund faith-based organizations, and that would obviously include CHURCHES that provide so many of the services (hospice care, food, child care, elder care, on and on). You might also look to the beginnings of his campaign, and possibly be quite amazed at the volume of time Obama has spent with and within the black church community.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/21/at_kings_church_obama_reaches_out_to_black_voters/
Report thisBy cyrena, October 29, 2008 at 6:27 pm #
Part 3 of 3
Now check this out from the right-wing, (Tucker Carlson) and see how they manage to twist it
**
• “..From the January 14 edition of MSNBC’s Tucker:
CARLSON: I was impressed, though, very much by, Peter, Huckabee’s decision not to get political in church yesterday. All these different candidates go down to South Carolina and Nevada and preach these kind of political sermons—which, by the way, I believe is illegal—and Huckabee decides not to. By contrast, I want you to take a look at something that Barack Obama said in church on Sunday. Watch this.
OBAMA [video clip]: We’re on the brink, on the cusp of doing something important. We could make history. Not, by the way, just—you know, I know everybody’s focused on racial history. That’s not what I’m talking about. We could make history by being the first time in a very long time where a grassroots movement of people of all colors—black, white, Hispanic, Asian—rose up, and went up against the princes, the powers, and principalities, and actually won a presidency.
CARLSON: Now, why should you have a tax exemption, Peter, if you’re campaigning in a church? Why should that church not pay taxes? I’ve got to pay taxes.
FENN: Speaking in a church. Oh, I see. So it was fine for Pat Robertson—
CARLSON: No, campaigning in a church. No, it’s wrong. And I’m asking not about Pat Robertson, but it was wrong when anybody brings politics into a church.
FENN: Yeah, and, I mean, look. I have a fundamental agreement with you on that, on a basic principle here. But unfortunately what we have is a situation where you have voter guides put under people’s windshields, where you have the Pat Robertsons and the Jerry Falwells of the world who turned churches into political machines. So, you know, I don’t worry as much about a speech in a – “
http://mediamatters.org/items/200801150019
Read the rest of it at the link, just to get an insight on how this whole thing in turned so upside down in the political discourse of the past 8 years. Of COURSE Churches in the black community have always had a political component. That’s what politics is about in most civilized societies and groupings. This is particularly the case within the black communities, since for centuries, it was the only place for blacks to communicate with each other, and share information. As far back as the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks were getting the critical information that affected their own lives, primarily via the church. (Which could explain why some parts of the country didn’t find out that the slaves had been freed for nearly two years after the presidential order – this is where the occasion of ‘Juneteenth’ emerged as an informally recognized black holiday of sorts)
At any rate, Obama has been engaged with the black church community for decades, and has certainly spent a great deal of time with them as a part of his campaign. Not for an instant does the reality point to anything other than that. But, we’ve gotta look at all of it, and I understand that’s not all that easy to do, when there is so much contradictory innuendo and outright propaganda swirling.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/05/politics/main2888706.shtml
Lastly, leftist populism has been PROMOTED by the change occurring within the Democratic party, as a result of the Obama populist influence that kicked it off.
Report thisBy cruxpuppy, October 29, 2008 at 6:19 pm #
Chris Hedges seems to have no appreciation for the historical reality of populism, the 19th Century movement among farmers that challenged the private monetary system that is now assaulting the people as it did back in the day. He would not be using populism as a synonym for sectarian extremist views if he did understand the meaning of the term.
The elite element in society, those who are now bailing themselves out with the people’s money, have a deep fear and loathing of a real populist uprising, just as they loathed FDR, and they went so far as to attempt to kill him.
They could not kill FDR, but they did manage to assassinate the term “populism”.
It really pisses me off that some one like Chris Hedges can be so ignorant of the history of his own country.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm #
@GrammaConcept
So now, with sincerity and genuine interest, I ask you especially,
and others who care to speak…....
What would You have one do, at this juncture in time, space, and history,
with his or her Vote?
At this point I see voting as a purely symbolic gesture. I think it is more important to from alliances with family and friends to defend each other and to look after each other. I see that the world system will try to extract debt payments from the US in the same way it had been done to Latin America. Remember that Carlos Menem of Argentine came to office with the romantic appearance of a revolutionary with his sideburns unclipped in the mode of a 19th century people’s tribune of Latin America. Please refer to Juan Facundo Quiroga, “the tiger of the plains”. Menem had a speech style similar to that of a preacher,“For every Argentine, standing, for poor children who are hungry, or for those who are sad, for our brothers who are without work, for homes without roofs, for tables without bread, for our homeland, I ask you to follow me, follow me! I won’t betray you.” Once he was elected to office the side burns came off and the rollback came down. I believe Obama is going to use the Menem template.
As for what we should do, I think we should build a parallel economy, and a parallel government. Factories, and stores and businesses should be occupied by workers before the judges put them into asset stripping receiverships. Resist any attempts to have your guns confiscated. Stock up on dry bulk food.
Report thisBy WriterOnTheStorm, October 29, 2008 at 2:22 pm #
RE: Dr Knowitall, prgill,
Like most at TD, I’m a fan of TAOWalker. His postings jackknife the consensus worldview. TAOWalker reminds me to take a step back - to attempt, at least - to see life from outside the bubble of my conditioning - to stop betting the bank in one casino as I put it in an earlier post.
The current crisis in the economic machine has given TAOWalker an opportunity to drive home his points at a moment when many of us may be questioning the machine, or at least our naivete in allowing ourselves to be seduced by the machine’s siren call.
I see no political solutions encrypted in the codec of TAOWalker’s commentary. The overarching theme of his posts suggest that belief in the political leads to a world where, almost by definition, one’s existence is reduced to that of livestock.
No one really likes being subjected to the rules of an arbitrary social hypothesis, especially when those rules are rigged to favor a chosen few. We would all aspire to “unmesh from the apparatus” as semiotician Alfred Korzybski once put it. The ‘60’s counterculture was driven by the misguided hope that this was possible en mass, that tuning in turning on and dropping out in numbers would lead to a spiritually awakened society. But the apparatus soon put that in it’s pipe and smoked it. The age of aquarious turned out to be the name of a crank-snorting garage band in a Phoenix ex-burb.
As folks through the ages know, from Zarathushtra on down to Tim Leary, it is possible to drop out. But if you decide to unmesh, if you want to step off the merry-go-round, be advised that you will wind up in Place-Less-Ness. And you will have to go there by yourself.
Report thisBy GrammaConcept, October 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm #
To PARACELSUS:
I have now read all of the texts to which you have provided links…and, all of your recent commentaries…
(I have listened as well to the voices of others here who are quite convinced of the brown shirts, shadows, meglomania and demoraized misery yet to come)
So now, with sincerity and genuine interest, I ask you especially,
and others who care to speak…....
What would You have one do, at this juncture in time, space, and history,
Report thiswith his or her Vote?
By Inherit The Wind, October 29, 2008 at 1:43 pm #
freeman, October 28 at 7:05 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
@ Inherit The Wind
Seems like you don’t understand what Caja square is doing. He doesn’t care if he’s right or wrong. He put out the ideas to see if anyone will actually look or challenge them, since there are many uneducated people in America.
According to world standings it is said Americans only have an AVERAGE of a grade FIVE education. As a European I came here with a grade four education and I passed High School and part of Collage with it. Studies on my own during this time brought me to education level of University Grad in two years.
Sorry to say, your inability to pick up on what Caja square is saying is definite proof of that. What’s more interesting is that Caja is implying many hidden forms of thought with his statements. He can’t help it, it’s his nature pertaining to what he’s gone through. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen such blatant and hidden coding within such a short article. I’d put him close to, if not, genius level.
I strongly suggest you study it further, crosscheck, double check till you get it and ask questions if you don’t understand.
**************************************
Give me a friggin’ break, will you? I know a religious “Christian” conspiracy tinfoil-hatter when I see one! (“Christian” in quotes, as opposed to those who actually follow their Bible) If you think his veiled references are BRILLIANT and not blatantly obvious then I suggest YOU need to do some more learnin’ before you can keep up with this one dumb, ignorant American.
I picked one point. One point at the foundation of his argument and showed it to be pure crap. If the foundation is crap the structure is UNSUPPORTED and can be discounted.
I’ll bet (and I’ll give you odds) that with a little digging EVERYTHING you found “obscure” will appear as somebody else’s ideas that he copied. But I’m not wasting my time on it.
Report thisBy steve conn, October 29, 2008 at 1:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ralph Nader’s Experience with the Democratic Party and its operatives shows us that the Party would rather drive populists on the left into oblivion rather than
Report thisassist in grassroots organization. While the Republicans incorporated and strengthened its megachurch base, the Democrats show distain for the black churches that formed the base of the civil rights movement. Obama’s dismissal of his pastor is a good example of this. Nader sustains locally based citizen activists like ACORN. Where was Obama’s defense of ACORN? Leftist populism gets zero help from the Dems.
By jack, October 29, 2008 at 1:01 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: Cyrena’s post: ...no reason that the so-called ‘elite’ (if they have any brains at all) will be forced to make an uncomfortable alliance with right-wing populists when it would be far more advantageous to them, to make that alliance with the progressive (and further to the left) populists…
That’s exactly what they’re doing: advancing their agenda under so-called “Left” cover. The “alliance” per se flowing through the Obama campaign coffers into the advertising industry like mana from heaven.
As to who populates Obama’s campaign, the appropriate question is this: Are their any genuine progressives among his advisors?
Along with the team that came up with him in Chicago, it’s largely Clinton-era apparachicks and some Carter-era veterans, including Brzezinski, co-author of the Middle East as we know it. It appears recent criticism of his influences on Obama has driven him deeper into the shadows. His name doesn’t appear in a recent NY Times article on Obama’s advisors, and in this interview [ http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200810/20081003_brzezinski.html ] he shows a face far less imperialistic than he did in his “Grand Chessboard, where he writes: “Two basic steps are thus required: first, to identify the geostrategically dynamic Eurasian states that have the power to cause a potentially important shift in the international distribution of power and to decipher the central external goals of their respective political elites and the likely consequences of their seeking to attain them;... second, to formulate specific U.S. policies to offset, co-opt, and/or control the above…” (p. 40)
“...To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together.” (p.40)
The interview cited is about his latest project, based on a series of conversations with former National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft. The book is called “America and the World: Conversations on the Future of American Foreign Policy.”
Brzezinski is perhaps the most brilliant agent the global financiers have ever had. In my analysis, he sees the Left/Right political theatre of division and diversion finally being broadly exposed, so he’s pushing bipartisanism as “the solution” - getting ahead of the curve, so to speak - investing the agenda he promotes into the next wave of political activism.
Wish I could see him as becoming more “progressive,” but I can’t trust him, and I’m even sorrier to say, I find the analysis concerning Brzezinski’s influence in “Obama: The Postmodern Coup - Making of a Manchurian Candidate,”
Report thisby Webster Griffin Tarpley, Bruce Marshall and Jonathan Mowat, to be very convincing. - http://www.amazon.com/Obama-Postmodern-Making-Manchurian-Candidate/dp/0930852885
By susan sunflower, October 29, 2008 at 12:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think that rather than ‘lament’ the lack of a vanguard organization or coalition movement, we must just proceed in the belief that one will evolve.
I have been struck (while doing a lot of googling and following links) just how many socialist and communists organizations seem to have become revitalized in the last year or so (sites I had visited previously, several years ago, in trying to figure out the lack of a new younger ENERGIZED antiwar movement). Some (many) of these sites appear to verge on one- or two-man operations, possibly cults of personality or ego—I cannot tell—but they seem eager to engage in ideologic combat with their rivals! The more things change ....
There many other groups that in my opinion could become non-partisan nuclei for a nascient movement—Amnesty International, Acorn (no really), Habitat for Humanity, Catholic Worker, various immigrant rights/amnesty advocates, and any and all churches—etc.
Hard time will reveal our nation’s character in 2008. The character of the Great Depression is and has been mythic for 75+ years now, confused with the WPA and the Grapes of Wrath and Now Let Us Praise Famous Men—all very attractive and politically correct—but back then, yes, a substantial percentage of Americans lived on farms and were accustomed to uncertainty and hard times and self-reliance. Things have changed. Self-reliance is not possible in the same way.
I think protection of the rights of all Americans and residents is as good a place to start as any .... nation of laws and all that.
Let’s get Guantanamo closed and the “secret” prisoners” into the light. Then we can talk about other matters.
Report thisBy Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 29, 2008 at 11:59 am #
prgill,
Because I think TAO Walker’s comments here are poetic in language and style, I call them poetry, but I don’t know that he actually writes poetry and puts it on the internet.
He’ll have to answer that for you.
Sorry if I misled you or misrepresented him.
Report thisBy prgill, October 29, 2008 at 11:36 am #
Dear Know-it-all,
Thanks for the heads-up regarding Tao Walker poetry. As a poet he has a special place in my book for it is the poet in each of us that gives life its meaning. I shall see what I can find of his on-line.
Report thisBy Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 29, 2008 at 10:52 am #
prgill,
Thanks for your input. If I’m reading your comment correctly, in the end, you are saying pretty much what I am.
I think most people here agree that they don’t like the way the world is working. I love TAO Walker’s poetry. But there are 6.5 billion people on Earth now. That presents problems that cannot, in my opinion, be dismissed by poetry. Many of us yearn for simpler times in which people were far fewer in numbers and the competition for resources didn’t much exist and those who had knew little to nothing of those who had not.
The white Europeans came here and effectively destroyed native people’s civilization. That’s the way the world always worked and will no doubt continue. We’re not sure, had Europeans never come, how an all red “civilization” might have looked now. Maybe it would be a disappointment to TAO Walker.
I think TAO Walker’s poetry indicates to me a deep sense of resentment for what happened and the desire for isolationism. That’s fine. But my guess is that even he picks and chooses the extent to which he involves himself in modern society and thinking, while he criticizes the parts he either can’t, or refuses, to be a part of and those people who participate. “Criticizes” may be too harsh. Allow me to substitute proselytizes.
Finally, I’m not ready to entirely dismiss his ideas. As I said the last time I asked, I’m not challenging the merits of his poetry; I want to embrace it, just tell me, in a 21st century world, how.
Report thisBy Max Shields, October 29, 2008 at 10:30 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Chris Hedges has once again brought great sagacity to the issue of populism and the wordless world we are entering.
I heard a news anchor (or whatever they call themselves) on CNN say a couple of weeks ago, “so when will we be out of the woods.” How quaint I thought. We’re in the woods and we just need a little time to find our way out!
No, we’re not in the woods, we’re in a place and time we’ve never been before. Our words, or attempts at relating now with a past, fails us.
But it is really Chris’s point about electing Obama. It has been my contention for some time, that the situation is such, as never witnessed before (no, it’s not the Great Depression, far too many major differences that override the “safe” similarities, much like our words) that we will wake up to a new world which is detached wholly from our past.
The progressives or liberals who find themselves agreeing with just about everything Ralph Nader says, but think that the “smart” thing to do is play the Dem/Repub game to have a “meaningful” say on election day, have put a gun to their proverbial head (foot would be kind). The Dems have created, for their own hubris purposes, a great progressive void of nowhere. There is the Green Party, but rather than those who put time into PDA build that Party (Green) or an alternative to the duopoly, they march in time to the noice of the Dem. Party. The Party that has signed onto corporate leadership, that has propelled us into more wars than any other while occupying the White House.
These Dem/progressives are like so many, short term thinkers. They were so caught up with George W. Bush that they never realized that this was all about total Dem/Repub complicity. For the parties it’s about who has the power today and what they need to say to get it. But for independent progressives, it’s about the future; and we have walked away from those principles; and even, in some cases, blaming the very actors (Nader) who offer a truth. Moore is too consumed and easily distracted when things don’t happen right away, so he throws away his notions of single payer, and hopes on the Dem bandwagon.
The PDA is like the spouse who thinks they can reform their drunken other half; only to realize some day that they are in fact enablers.
We don’t know what the future will bring, it is always emerging, unclear, and only framed historically. But I think progressives have sold out to their own principles. They have not done the hard work but blamed others (Nader, the Green Party) for not supplying them with an alternative. They were too lazy to actually pick up the hammer, nails, and saw to construct a future. Instead they went ALONG with the bosses.
Obama and those who vote for him will get what they wish for in part - his election. But, within a short period of time, they will wish they could take that wish back. The Dems were given YOUR support as progressives. And their failure will be framed as YOUR failure.
Report thisBy prgill, October 29, 2008 at 9:10 am #
Dr. Knowitall, your question to Tao Walker is unfair.
The Native American worldview is self-regulating and “pre-civilized”. I do not mean by pre-civilized that the Native American point of view is somehow “inferior”, I mean simply that the competitive social context in which Western civilization arose was never an issue among Native Americans, at least it was never allowed to become an issue.
North America could not sustain 300 million people in even a modest lifestyle without the artifices of civilization and the “improvements” we have made upon Mother Nature. The problem I am afraid, is that without drastic reform our civilization is not sustainable.
Maybe somebody could take a stab at what reforms would be necessary to make our civilization sustainable.
Report thisBy cwcw, October 29, 2008 at 8:37 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
none of this will happen: as soon as the elite are truly threatened, their Blackwaters and cohorts in the military industrial complex will be unleashed on the vox americanus like so many locusts in revevlations - and the sarah palins of this world will be waiting in the wings, ever ready to play (the) avenging angel(s), and they will swoop in to save us from ourselves…
Report thisenjoy the next few months… they will be Amerikas last…
By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 29, 2008 at 7:22 am #
TAO Walker:
I think I asked you this before. I don’t recall a response.
What would your world of 6.5 billion look like and how would you accomplish it?
Report thisBy cyrena, October 29, 2008 at 5:44 am #
By troublesum, October 27 at 4:19 pm #
Are there any black people on Obama’s campaign staff?
~~~~~
You’re kidding, right? Or maybe you can’t tell colors so well.
Seems like that boulder on the shoulder would have pretty much done you in by now troublesum.
Yep…lot’s of black folks in Obama’s campaign. Or, maybe I should say that they seem to be in pretty close proportion to the black percentage of the US population.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 4:10 am #
The Vileness of Biden
http://actindependent.org/BIDEN.pdf
BIDEN A CREATURE OF THE WORST CREDIT CARD GOUGERS
Report thisBiden represents Delaware in the US Senate. Delaware is not a state, but a giant post box
for Dupont, General Motors, and many of the giant corporations and Wall Street firms.
The state politics of Delaware are dictated down to the most minute detail by the bankers
and their corporate lackeys, since everything depends on keeping a pro-oligarchical
political climate in the state. Biden personally is a tool of MBNA, a credit card issuer that
was recently absorbed by the Bank of America, which presumably now also owns Biden.
Biden got at least $215,000 from MBNA over the past decade. MBNA is notoriously one
of the biggest predatory lenders and interest rate gougers in the entire usurious world of
credit cards, and Biden’s services to them are precisely in this area: Biden was a big
supporter of the 2005 bankruptcy law which makes it much harder for working families
to escape debt bondage and debt slavery – just what the looters at MBNA ordered. Biden
has also boasted that he wrote the ban on assault weapons, a measure that is sure to cause
problems among the bitter clingers of Appalachia who are concerned about gun
ownership.
Obama has voted for the rotten compromise on FISA illegal wiretaps ordered by Bush
that grants retroactive immunity to the telecoms. Biden is also an enthusiastic police state
totalitarian. In 1995, after the Oklahoma City false flag bombing, Biden submitted an
oppressive police state bill, in many ways a precursor of Bush’s infamous Patriot Act. “I
drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing,” boasts Biden. “And the bill
John Ashcroft sent up was my bill.” Biden’s only regret is that he was not able to
undermine political freedom as much as he wanted to.
By Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 4:01 am #
Obama Goons Call Police
Over Man’s Questions
By Greg Nixon
9-27-8
http://www.iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/176674
This past Sunday, a graduate student in electrical engineering learned that Fascists are not always goosestepping in uniforms behind tanks, sometimes they can appear to be innocent little old ladies or soccer moms. Our student, whom we will refer to as as just Brian, approached an Obama campaign table on Church Street here in Burlington and began to ask questions about Brzezinski’s role as advisor to Obama. He also asked if the Obama supporters knew about how Brzezinski was the architect for the Mujahideen, a.k.a. Al Qaeda.
The Obama table wanted no discussion what so ever. In order to set up a table on Church Street, a group must apply for a permit from the market place board. The function of tabling is to educated the public on issues and allow dialogue. Apparently an open exchange of ideas did not apply to Obama supporters. After Brian questioned the table and realized the conversation was closed, he walked away.
Refusing to speak was not enough for the Obama people, they called the police! Two police officers chased Brian down, ordered him onto the ground. Brian called out for help, thinking he had committed no crime. The police told him to shut up or he would be tasered. Brian was handcuffed and taken to jail where he was held for 35 hours. He had to appear before a judge in shackles and will face a trial by jury in one month for: resisting arrest and disorderly conduct.
The ordeal in jail left Brian visibly shaken and upset. If the arrest wasn’t enough. The Obama campaigners filed a RESTRAINING ORDER which bans him from Church Street for ONE MONTH! Burlington is a small town, and Church St. is our main thoroughfare. This is a de facto ban from the town.
I spent a half hour with Brian retracing the steps of that fateful day. He told me how he didn’t realize what freedom was until it was taken away. For the moment, he is not personally speaking out about this injustice. He fears what other tactics the Obama supporters may hold. I immediately realized a gross injustice had been committed and seized a chance to tell Brian’s story by gaining his trust.
I hope a suit will be filed for a violation of Brian’s civil rights, First Amendment rights and the tabling permit for the Obama campaigners will go under review. Is this Obama’s America? Is this this the “Change” we can expect? Arbitrary arrests for questioning power? Be careful of what you wish for, As Truman Capote said, “more tears are shed over answered prayers than unaswered ones.”
Greg Nixon
**************************
This story has not hit the MSM.
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 29, 2008 at 3:54 am #
Nixon Goes to China Scenario for Obama
I think that voters should look at the possibility that an Obama presidency could provide cover for severe austerity programs against American citizens. I think that all the proposals that Bush could not get done in regards to social security will be unleashed under Obama.
http://actindependent.org/ObamaRightWing.pdf
Report thisBy colin2626262, October 29, 2008 at 3:01 am #
One of the major reasons for the economic collapse in America is the massive military budget. Chris Hedges pointed out in an earlier article that the financial bailout was almost the exact amount spent on the war and occupation of Iraq. Instead of spending billions on a war that kills, maims and impoverishes human beings, we should make sure everyone, throughout the world, has the basic necessities of living.
I recently listened to a talk by the Jesuit priest and peace activist Father John Dear. The talk he gave was in a small, independent bookstore. I’d say about twenty-five or so people showed up to hear him speak. His message should’ve been broadcast over every television channel. Just in case, his website is fatherjohndear.org What he said was that we can’t go on letting 30,000 or more people, mostly children, die of starvation and preventable disease everyday. We can’t go on passively supporting the violence carried out in our name. As it was said during the Vietnam War, “silence is complicity.”
John’s most important message was the need for all of us to become friends with God, or in his words, “the God of Peace.” Jesus’ main message for posterity, according to John, was “put down the sword.” If we took the insane amounts of money that go into the military budget and, yes, redistributed the wealth, into social programs, that would allow us to have a more peaceful world. Milton Friedman, the famous economist, wanted to get rid of almost every part of the federal government except for the Department of Defense, Department of State, and the Treasury Department. Those he wanted to keep.
Most people are not like Father John and I. Most people feel the need to defend themselves with force. However, the military can be reduced and we can become more loving, more nonviolent, by being friends with the God of peace, by praying and acting on behalf of what’s right, on behalf of the truth.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 29, 2008 at 2:36 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
cyrena—Well put.
Report thisBy cyrena, October 29, 2008 at 2:26 am #
Chris Hedges writes:
“..A victory by Barack Obama may embolden right-wing populists. They will be able to use Obama and “liberal Democrats” as a lightning rod for the failings, growing poverty and incompetence of the state. The elite, as happens in all such moments of confusion, revolt and social chaos, will probably be forced to make an uncomfortable alliance with right-wing populists if they want to survive. The center of the political spectrum will melt.
**
This is a troubling view, even though I admit to the reality of it. Still, I wonder if we shouldn’t question WHY it is that these people “will be able’ to use Obama and so-called “liberal Democrats” as a lightening rod for all of this shit that has already occurred, that neither Obama or “liberal Democrats” are responsible for.
Barack Obama is not the reason for the failings, growing poverty, and incompetence of the state, and I would deny that these circumstances that we now find ourselves in, (all on our knees) are due to the ‘incompetence’ of the state. This is NOT ‘incompetence” because this is EXACTLY what the plan has always been!!! To have us all on our knees.
That said, there is no reason that the so-called ‘elite’ (if they have any brains at all) will be forced to make an uncomfortable alliance with right-wing populists when it would be far more advantageous to them, to make that alliance with the progressive (and further to the left) populists.
So, I see this discourse as just another example of how the media has and does continue to control (or at least attempt to) the public discourse. In other words, why is Hedges so eager to suggest that these people will form alliances with the populist right, rather than the progressive left? Just because he says so?
Nope, there is actually a silent majority that isn’t so silent any more, because people aren’t stupid. While the right-wingers will continue to be active in their pursuits to maintain what they see as their special privileges, (even those that never had them to begin with, but are too ignorant to realize it) there is no logical reason to assume, (at least not from the observations I’ve been making, along with others who make these observations) that the so-called ‘elite’ will be forced to that side. All field observations point in the opposite direction, and I don’t see the middle falling out of the political spectrum. The middle has been FORCED out of the economic spectrum, making that same middle move further toward the progressive version of populism.
Report thisBy colin2626262, October 29, 2008 at 2:24 am #
Chris Hedges: Capitalism argues that there is no difference between the social and commercial contract. Because there is no distinction, I wonder if we have destroyed that vital concept of the common good within our democracy.
Ralph Nader: Every society that has subverted social values to commercial supremacy goes down. What every major religion in the world has urged, many, many centuries ago, is adherence not to give too much power to the merchant class. What we see in this country is a complete reverse.
Milton Friedman: Tell me, is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The only cases in which the masses have escaped from grinding poverty, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. There is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people, that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us?
Report thisAll of us are interested in pursuing our own objectives. Mankind is selfish and greedy. It’s a false argument [that government must take care of people], because it assumes somehow that government is a way in which you put unselfish and ungreedy men in charge of selfish and greedy men. But government is an institution whereby the people who have the greatest drive to get power over their fellow men get in a position of controlling them.
By Sepharad, October 29, 2008 at 2:08 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
JeremyKeithHammond—Thanks for the Hedges’ book quote on the nature of love. Was especially moved by the call to recognize love not just in those we love but in those with whom we are in conflict. (It has particular meaning to me, as a large part of my consciousness is part of the Arab-Jew tragedy being played out in Israel/Palestine. We’re so much alike; perhaps if we weren’t, the conflict wouldn’t be so bitter, but neither would the occasional moments of mutual understanding, small progress, and possibility of reconciliation be so sweet.)
One man’s populist movement is another man’s mob. Hedge’s article echos American literary classics—Sinclair Lewis’ “It Can’t Happen here” and Philip Roth’s “American Pastoral”. Also has echos in American history ... Huey Long of Louisiana, of course, but historian C. Van Woodward also wrote an account I read long ago. (I can’t remember the title of book, but expect to turn it up as am gathering up thousands of books from various nooks and crannies in small house and barn, including part of my research library lately chockablock under the piano, now that we finally have given up our son’s old room and part of ours to floor-to-ceiling wall-to-wall bookshelves). Anyway, it was the story of one of the white leaders of the Southern populist movement, which was a unique institution because it was definitely integrated in a still-pretty-racist South (and a still-respectable-but-segregated North). Early in the book is a description of this man and a few friends, black and white, who gathered at the farm of a black populist brother singled out for destruction for God-knows-what offense by the Klan, and defended him and his family in a shooting match that went on most of the night. The Southern populists grew to be quite numerous and effective economically speaking, and were proud to send a delegation to one of the national populist conventions up north. Alas, there they were informed that as a racially-mixed organization they were disqualfied, unable to be recognized or supported by Lafollette’s great holy American Populist Movement. The effect was devastating for the Southerners, and the group’s leader began drinking himself into not so much a shadow of who he’d been more accurately an enemy of everything he’d previously stood for. In latter days he became active in the white supremacist movement. Now that is a true American tragedy. I will post the name of the book as soon as I find it. (I read it for the first time in college, shortly before the summer I was one of many voter registration workers. The book gave me a perspective on the South and its potential for racial harmony as well as the realization that all things good did not spring from the Northeast. Not even hallowed Vermont.)
Inherit the Wind, Tao Walker, Outraged—appreciated all your posts. They restore my confidence in the human species’ ability to reason, underlining how truly crazy some of the crackpot conspiracy nuts drawn to Truthdig (and doubtless other liberal/progressive blogs). There are certainly skinhead supremacists with delusions of righteous murder out there, but so far they haven’t made much of a dent on social mores in the U.S. Even so, those who remember or have read what ‘30s Germany was like will remain watchful.
Report thisBy freeman, October 28, 2008 at 11:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
@ Inherit The Wind
With all due respect to Truthdig and members here, I think I’ve found something which may explain a part of what Caja is talking about.
This is your real situation in America explained by Howard Zinn. Please watch: http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=74&jumival=247
It’s up to you what you do about it. The whole world is watching you.
Enjoy
I will add that if you don’t fix your government, greedy banks and businesses and your military complex the rest of the world will probably pounce on you, or take you apart piece by piece.
Report thisBy freeman, October 28, 2008 at 11:05 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
@ Inherit The Wind
Seems like you don’t understand what Caja square is doing. He doesn’t care if he’s right or wrong. He put out the ideas to see if anyone will actually look or challenge them, since there are many uneducated people in America.
According to world standings it is said Americans only have an AVERAGE of a grade FIVE education. As a European I came here with a grade four education and I passed High School and part of Collage with it. Studies on my own during this time brought me to education level of University Grad in two years.
Sorry to say, your inability to pick up on what Caja square is saying is definite proof of that. What’s more interesting is that Caja is implying many hidden forms of thought with his statements. He can’t help it, it’s his nature pertaining to what he’s gone through. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen such blatant and hidden coding within such a short article. I’d put him close to, if not, genius level.
I strongly suggest you study it further, crosscheck, double check till you get it and ask questions if you don’t understand.
Report thisBy SusanSunflower, October 28, 2008 at 9:50 pm #
I share some of Mr. Hedges concerns wrt “what is this going to look like this time?”—more specifically how is this Obama-based “energized youth” going to react? how are the generations who have only experienced single digit inflation and unemployment going to react?
Yes, rampant outsourcing and “illegal” immigrant labor have been used to pump up corporate profits like steroids ... but for the most part, those jobs are gone ... along with good paying journey man day-labor in construction, regardless of your nationality or potential fitness ...
Those jobs are gone ... and they aren’t coming back any time soon. Skills like cooking, sewing and do-it-yourself have become less and less “thrifty” and more and more “hobby” or even “arty” ...
When I was young, the refrain I heard from those who lived through the great depression was that since hardtimes had hit everyone they knew there wasn’t any shame in being poor… and the “less fortunate”—the old, the ill, the incompetent, the substance abusers—were the “less fortunate” who needed to be looked after or at least their kids did.
In large part, the nation is still in denial. Much of that grasshopper versus the ant planning for retirement has vanished… will it come back? There is a lot of quite justified anger to be expressed, (I marvel that this catastrophe could have been ALLOWED to occur with the Enron and other post-09/11 debacles so fresh in our consciousness, even the Savings and Loan Crisis of the 1980s—how stupid are we? how many times will wel fall for the same carny spiel about how you “can’t win if you don’t play”?)
Will we look after one another or will we be pushing and shoving and undercutting one another to suck up to those with wealth and job opportunities remaining?
I’m not hopeful. Does “everyone” really have their “price”?
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 28, 2008 at 8:52 pm #
caja square, October 28 at 2:29 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
@ Paracelsus
Thank you. At least you have checked and found out in good part.
Now I challenge all to do same and dig as far as you can and everything you can. Then spread it to every common human being in USA.
Caja square [
*********************************
Unlike you, I actually CLICKED on the link. What it does is FINISH the job I started and TOTALLY destroys the myth that all the signers of the Declaration of Independence (and NOT the Constitution) were hunted down, killed, robbed, etc.
Paracelsus wasn’t supporting your absurd assertion, he was DESTROYING IT! You really ought to try reading rather than just preaching the latest conspiracy claptrap.
Report thisBy libertarian, October 28, 2008 at 7:59 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I have tremendous respect for Chris Hedges but he seems to be relying on a few other Truthdig articles in forming his views on the Constitution Party. Nader and Chuck Baldwin, along with McKinney, Barr and Kucinich, have some important truths to offer to thinking voters. The gold or silver standard for currency is a prime example. As for the attack made on Chuck Baldwin in Hedges closing paragraph, here is Baldwin’s stated view on religion:
“Judeo Christian Values have always been part of Chuck Baldwin’s way of life. He believes that the values that have made America strong are just those values. Many people came to this country for religious freedom and Chuck Baldwin like others are proud of the fact that freedom is and always will be offered. As a Christian he knows that faith is something a person has to own and hold dear but can never be forced into.”
Report thisBy Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 28, 2008 at 7:33 pm #
TAO Walker:
OK.
Ever onward.
Report thisBy caja square, October 28, 2008 at 6:29 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
@ Paracelsus
Thank you. At least you have checked and found out in good part.
Now I challenge all to do same and dig as far as you can and everything you can. Then spread it to every common human being in USA.
Caja square
Report thisBy TAO Walker, October 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm #
Dr. Knowitall illustrates perfectly the phenomenon this old Savage was referring-to in that previous post here. Domesticated peoples are prisoners of impoverished language….among other things. They also often tend to believe that if they can’t seem to “get their heads around” something, then surely nobody else can either.
Being sealed-up in the bubble of one’s “individuality” seems always to result in the same kind of fractured conceit about what is or is not possible-to or true-of Humans. Dr. Knowitall suggests that the “meaning of being human” is nothing but (at last count) six-and-a-half billion private mind-games that more-or-less haphazardly intersect here-and-there, now-and-then. If “we are all so different,” then there isn’t really such a thing as Humanity here anyhow….just a bunch of “independent” similarly-shaped “molecules” bouncing randomly around in some kind of “global” pressure-cooker. Even a cursory examination of our actual Living Arrangement should reveal how totally at-odds with experience such imagined “autonomy” truly is, however.
The existence of others not so inflicted is no doubt discomfitting to captive peoples, who manage to tolerate their condition largely because they are CONvinced no other is available. The civilized peoples are all sinking into a kind of institutional, ideological, and electro-mechanical quicksand here, evidently resigned to there being no chance of any real-time help coming from beyond the edges of the quagmire….especially from any actual Human Beings. Yet here us surviving free wild ones are, throwing out a life-line.
Dr. Knowitall once or twice on this site has claimed to see something of substance in the offerings of this old Indian. Here now he tries to capture all that within the smothering CONfines of his own fatalism. It ain’t gonna fit. Life Herownself can’t be shrunk to the limits of anyone’s mere “understanding” of Her. On the other hand, there are likely no effective limits on how comprehensive the grasp of Her Way, by any of Her Children, might grow to become.
As coldly “comforting” as it might be, to those enmeshed in a system that cultivates ignorance, to think everybody else is equally in-the-dark about essential things, it simply isn’t so. Why have “life-guards” at the beach, otherwise.
HokaHey!
Report thisBy WriterOnTheStorm, October 28, 2008 at 4:27 pm #
More alarmist rambling accompanied by the usual existentialist howls. Yes, there is nothing quite like an economic collapse to turn a crowd of consumption-slaked Jekylls into a hungry pack of reactionary Hydes.
This economic exhale has been coming down the pike for quite a spell. But the economy is not the problem, it’s another symptom. American Exceptionalism and the concomitant persistent pubescence of the national mindset is what brought about this preternatural faith in the drunken idea that the winning streak would never end. But even the most arrogant gambler knows if you ride a winning streak too long and too far you will ride it straight into the gutter.
Yes, every gambler knows you can’t beat the house, and it’s no use pretending that this wasn’t equally true five, ten or 25 years ago. The House has many names: Nixon, Clinton, Bush, the Federal Reserve, the Illuminati, depending on the flavor of the theory. But whatever you want to call it, only delusional vanity and adolescent swagger will make you fool enough to bet your bank in that casino.
Over and over again.
Report thisBy Milind, October 28, 2008 at 3:16 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Chris,
Report thisI have been closely following the “bailouts” in your country from outside (India).
A couple of points :
State Capitalism streaks like these are not un-precedented. Hitler did this in pre world war 2 years. Back Home - out late prime minister Indira Gandhi had a cut at at in seventies by Nationalising a large chunk of Banks.
In the current situation the context being entirely different in that the benefactors are mostly the rich people. This itself could build / is building great resentment among the masses. Off the two candidates (McCain and Obama) - Obama appears to be betraying a bit of grasp about rising resentment. McCain on the other hand is still running around with wool in the ears.
The reason I bring up your presidential candidates is - much will depend on how the new President manages the situation. Also remember, the new president will have very less of time to act as the resentment is already fermenting.
In either case (candidate) as president, I foresee streaks of National chuavinism unless ofcourse America intends to invent Capitalism much different what we have been seeing so far.
Good Luck To America and World.
- Milind
By Paracelsus, October 28, 2008 at 12:04 pm #
@ Inherit The Wind
In reference to “After they created your WE THE PEOPLE they all ended up dead due to assassination or questionable circumstances.”
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp
I think the original fable had something to do with the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
Report thisBy Jeremy Keith Hammond, October 28, 2008 at 11:45 am #
This, like most of the current chaos and inhumanity, truly angers me and my knee-jerk reaction is to lash out at the fascists and their blind followers BUT I always remind myself of another great passage by our Chris Hedges here in his book: War is a Force that gives us Meaning.
“To survive as a human being is possible only through love. And, when Thanatos is ascendant, the instinct must be to reach out to those we love, to see in them all the divinity, pity, and pathos of the human. And to recognize love in the lives of others – even those with whom we are in conflict – love that is like our own. It does not mean we will avoid war or death. It does not mean that we as distinct individuals will survive. But love, in its mystery, has its own power. It alone gives us meaning that endures. It alone allows us to embrace and cherish life. Love has power both to resist in our nature what we know we must resist, and to affirm what we know we must affirm. And love, as the poets remind us, is eternal.”
Don’t forget that the sheep and their fascist leaders are also victims/symptoms of a sick system. Violence begets violence. The way to “combat” this is to boycott corrupt institutions and educate those around us. Reach out in love - not hate - no matter how frustrated your are. Don’t become those you oppose.
Think globally, act locally. Network.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 28, 2008 at 11:39 am #
Caja Square
You country was started by Free-Masons running away form European persecution. After they created your WE THE PEOPLE they all ended up dead due to assassination or questionable circumstances. It was done by the Old English Monarchy and their bankers, their Maritime Laws, which are conveniently connected to the Vatican. They still rule you today.
*************************************
Yeah. Right. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, the two architects of the Declaration of Independence both died 50 YEARS later as very, very old feeble men. Some assassination plot, that. Benj. Franklin died a very, very old man, in his 80s. George Washington went riding in the rain and caught a chill. People died of colds back then—he was one of them. He was out of office for 3 years at the time—Adams was President, followed by Jefferson…and as I said, neither died until 1826, many years after both were off the scene.
So the basic facts demonstrate that your statement about the Founding Fathers being assassinated—by ANYONE, is totally, clearly and obviously false.
Why do we get these crackpot conspiracy nuts here??
Report thisBy Leisure Suit Larry, October 28, 2008 at 10:18 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
ITW
(BTW, the “14” refers to some statement from an imprisoned Nazi that’s 14 words long. “88” means “Heil Hitler!”...“H” is the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 stands for “H”-“H”. Get it? Clever codes, these nazi morons use.)
I got more than enough information about these clowns when I lived in Idaho. They tried to recruit this lilly-white specimen UNTIL they found out I have Arapaho blood, and I’m a confirmed Marxist Jew. Boy they sure blew that one.
The 14 words were written by David Lane, and are: “We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children.”
Of course not White Jewish children, nor White Catholic children. For that matter not children with even a drop of African blood!
Fuck these idiots they’re not worth discussing…
Report thisBy LibertyWatch, October 28, 2008 at 9:33 am #
The marriage of gov.+ business=fascism
People keep referring to this trillion dollar corporate charity as “socialism” but in fact it is fascism at its basic definition! With the federal government now staging US Army forces within our borders (totally against the Constitution!) to secure the streets and rule the civilian populace and marshal law enforcement.
This is FASCISM remember we fought against that in the 1940’s and a guy name Hitler? Have we in America totally forgotten our history and our purpose of Freedom, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness! What has happen to the concept of equality & justice for all?
The last thing I want to see is white hoods or brown shirts patrolling the main street!
PEACE by Popular Demand!
Report thisBy caja square, October 28, 2008 at 8:46 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
[part 2]
WTO, NAFTA, IMF, WHO and all related are part of same cult. They all lead back to [in order] British bankers, Committee of 300, Islam, Vatican, Medici family [one of 13], Roman Empire and Baal [small part of present Iraq]. Boycott them! Keep in mind the Elite have been planning and executing this for over 2000 years. Over 21% of you USA people are now in poverty. Some say as high as high as 30%, be aware.
More solutions:
Prepare and create a newer system of hourly work as trade. For every hour of actual work you can trade for hour of someone else’s work. Preposterous? It worked for 1000’s of years before, why not now? Create a network of trusted people countrywide that rivals CIA, FBI, MI6, Vatican, Mosad and rest of them put together, similar to CAJA of William Cooper. Keep trusted peace officers [not police], sheriffs, military insiders, politicians in your interests and vet them regularly.
If you see any situation that’s going bad then videotape it. Make a backup or few, great for evidence against any wrongdoing.
Use short range radio stations, news, this thing called internet and any other media to spread the word and don’t let them control it or take it away. Learn to do DIY [Do It Yourself] from all kinds of technology available on internet for power / hydro, food, health, homes etc. and other sources. Keep your guns and make sure they are good and high powered ones to protect yourselves and your families. Always practice good safety and common sense with them. Support your local small businesses, farms and communities. Eat about a handful of salt per day wit your food and if you are able, stay away from sugar. Pressure big business and anything genetically engineered out of your area.
Don’t let them fool you. There’s enough food for everyone on this planet 10 times over. One geothermal power plan at Mount St Helen’s, or 10000 square miles of solar panels in desert, or oil from regular algae, or oil from hemp can power all of USA with massive power to spare. Electric, magnetic motor or methane power vehicles will replace any vehicle you want.
Be truthful, open and kind to your neighbors. This means help each other. Push drugs, drug dealers, bad politicians, bad cops and anyone bad out of your area with pictures and video. Post them on telephone posts and Youtube if you need to. You get the idea and do they ever hate it [ear to ear grin]. That’s how we cleaned up our neighborhood. Teach minor offenders to be part of your community. They are a great resource. Most of all know your human rights and how to present them. We are all part of the same race, race of humans. The Elite are not.
Support and learn from your local natives / Native Indians and indigenous peoples. They still know the land much better than most of us. After all these years I’m still learning.
If you don’t, we are all screwed. In such a case it would make starving Third World countries, Nazi concentration camps, and other oppression look like a picture perfect picnic.
I’m an old fart, they can’t hurt me anymore, time to give back something to you before I go. I was: 33 rd deg Freemanson, Vatican insider, Jesuit, Order of Malta, all infiltrated by me. I’ve found out, lived it, fought them and now it’s your turn.
Peace and prosperity be with you.
Caja square
P.S. The original main purpose of Everyone on earth is to live, be happy, improve themselves and evolve to a higher state of being. Anyone messing with it by fear, lies deception or any other means is false. Don’t ever forget this.
Report thisBy caja square, October 28, 2008 at 8:44 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
As an observer of your cute little country I find most of you are partially correct. Put most of you together and we find some semblance of somewhat of a common collective and theme. It’s best described in the movie Oh Brother Where art Thou.
Since I was traveling all over I’ve had a chance to hitchhike across your beautiful country back in the 80’s and somewhat in the 90’s. Met lots of your great people, seen the good and the bad as well. I found it puzzling that such a great diversity of people could actually get along without killing each other off. So I decided to study it a bit further and look what I found.
You country was started by Free-Masons running away form European persecution. After they created your WE THE PEOPLE they all ended up dead due to assassination or questionable circumstances. It was done by the Old English Monarchy and their bankers, their Maritime Laws, which are conveniently connected to the Vatican. They still rule you today. As William Cooper would say you are all sheeple: people acting like sheep while the wolves [the elite] pick and choose which ones will die and which will be slaves. Nice little world experiment of democracy, I’d say.
Bear with me, there’s more. Now if you truly look into history you’ll find all 4 major world religions are derived from one super religion, the cult of Baal [Sumerian, also known as Iraq], or Satan as you may know it today. It’s all about Sun worship. No wonder the US troops were told to stand down and let the looters raid the artifacts. Up to 14000 years of history wiped in one single swoop.
The revolutionary counter to it was a guy called Jesus. Yes, revolutionary! You will also find that this Sun cult has been persecuting, infiltrating and exterminating Christians and any free people on a constant basis this whole time and around whole world. That’s you, the regular people. Google it and learn.
The proponents of Baal are now today’s Elite, worldwide. Hey, don’t believe me, I’m only some guy on the net, search it out yourselves and learn. Dig into those hidden records that they keep on you and all their activities. Share the information you find and teach each other. This is your only hope, and then to expose them. Good starting point is Zeitgeist II: Addendum [freely available on Google video]. It just might be the most important video you will ever watch.
As you dig you will find who killed Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Gandhi and 1000’s of others who have been assassinated by this cult. No, this is no joke. Go find out for yourselves. You will also find out who Bush, McCain, Obama and rest of the elite are related to and how they interplay with all Elitists. Maybe you’ll even find how the Elite are using Revelations to plan everyone’s future worldwide. BTW: that black book has created at the Council of Nicaea, now called the Vatican, very interesting reading. Maybe you should look at previous similar stories it comes from and why.
All books laid side by side in Vatican repository equal to 12 miles of hidden records. You should see what they hold.
As a past insider I will tell you this: Time is short, they will try to exterminate about 1/3 to 2/3 of you in about 3 to 6 yrs. But there is hope: you must learn their tactics, teach each other and counter them with peaceful, legal means. Anytime they abuse you send them a bill. Pull out an invoice book and charge them 1000 per hour, sounds about right. It is the only thing they understand, money. Which is the very thing they use to enslave you, and most of the world where monetary system is used. Take them to court if they don’t pay under common laws, not business laws. Then you will see their money system die and their tyranny end with it.
Report this[see part 2]
By thebeerdoctor, October 28, 2008 at 7:34 am #
re: Inherit The Wind
I recently saw a picture of one of the would-be Obama killers, all decked out with his burr haircut, wife-beater underwear shirt, and a swastika tattoo on his shoulder, holding a big bad assault weapon.
Report thisThis was as about as unoriginal as it gets. A young pathetic loser wanting to raise as much hell as possible, because he is worried about black skin people!
Chris Hedges, for all of his foreign journalist cache, seems to now wander around in the doom and gloom tent, that oddly, has a complete counterpoint on the right.
So when Senator McCain and his presidential candidate Sarah Palin warn about that socialist Obama taking your hard earned money away, it only proves there is enough doom and gloom for everybody.
By Inherit The Wind, October 28, 2008 at 7:20 am #
Leisure Suit Larry, October 27 at 6:01 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
It is evident from Hedges scare-missive that stupidity is not solely the province of right wing religious fundementalist nuts.
******************************************
LSL, I don’t usually agree with your posts, but you sure had me chuckling with this: And Truthdig.com regularly proves you correct about it.
You got one poster warning about a neo-fascist backlash laden with violence. OK, I can see that. After all they arrested 2 jugheads who were planning to murder 14 then 88 Black HS kids, and then try to kill Obama.
But he was warning about it coming from….(get this)...the OBAMA camp. Right. Sure. Be safe. Wear your tin-foil hat to ward off telepathic waves.
(BTW, the “14” refers to some statement from an imprisoned Nazi that’s 14 words long. “88” means “Heil Hitler!”...“H” is the 8th letter of the alphabet, so 88 stands for “H”-“H”. Get it? Clever codes, these nazi morons use.)
Report thisBy Paracelsus, October 28, 2008 at 7:11 am #
@Big B
And now we are stuck with them while they help drag down wages, and subsequently our economy. Every once in a while a nation gets what it deserves.
********************
Many in the Latino identity groups would rather skewer the citizenry in the lower classes rather than go after the elites behind the mineral companies and the plantation companies, who are behind the suffering in Latin America. I don’t see how affecting a sense of the broader view can help black people in LA neighborhoods who are undergoing a type of ethnic cleansing from nationalistic Latino gangs.
Report thisBy Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 28, 2008 at 6:57 am #
@ TAO Walker
How eloquently spoken.
Yet, I’m not as sure as you seem to be, that any “highly evolved mind” has any more understanding of such a vague concept—what it means to be human—than one not so evolved. Seems to me that any attempt for any mind to define itself is simply guesswork, including that of any of the Eastern thinkers. I personally feel that the more vague and ethereal the thinking is, the more average thinkers are apt to grasp on, neither attempting to think things through for themselves or recognizing and valuing their own ability to do so. Aren’t those valid, valuable human concepts/traits?
All due respect, you seem arrogant and condascending.
This is not to say I disagree with the spirit of what you say, but I stop at the point where you want it to have general application.
The beauty of being human is that we’re all different. Different needs, different wants and different lives, maybe even different flaws. I, for one, will never let an imposed religion define for me who and what I am, and that includes yours. Nor would I let that stop me from pointing out the injustices I see in my own life or defining them as “human.” I’m not afraid of being flawed. Furthermore, I believe it is my human duty to crusade with those who agree with me, to address those injustices.
This is no Eden, nor can it be, no matter how much you, or we, may want it to be, nor no matter how much an ethereal thinker may chide us for how they see us as living our lives.
I’m glad you write here. Knowing how others think about the human condition can only help each person, it seems, to broaden his/her own understanding of his/hers. But, could not one be making a serious mistake by totally buying into another’s at the expense of abnegating his one?
History, I think, bears this out.
Whatever else humans are, they are flawed. If they weren’t, wouldn’t they be gods? If everyone became a god, who’d be god? Then where’d we be? The world’s in bad enough shape.
Onward with the quest!!!!
Report thisBy Outraged, October 28, 2008 at 6:13 am #
Article quote: “But Baldwin goes on to support the abolishment of whole departments of the federal government, such as the Department of Education. He calls for U.S. withdrawal from the United Nations and NATO, the elimination of the Food and Drug Administration, the outlawing of abortion and removing all restrictions on the purchasing of firearms. One of his catchier campaign slogans is: “To help keep your family safe and your country free, go buy a gun.” He wants to seal our borders, deny amnesty and social services to illegal immigrants and end birthright citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants. He calls for dismantling the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service, overturning the 16th Amendment and the personal income tax, and returning the American monetary system to hard assets: gold and silver.
These candidates, while marginal figures in the current election, express the two forms of populism that will soon find a wide political currency.”
Well put Mr. Hedges. The thing is… there’s always SOME truth in every GOOD lie (I know..I know.. I’ve said this before) just the same, it bears repeating.
Baldwin, although he makes some good points, is really attempting to undermine the The People, their mainstay and their wishes. I agree with George Carlin regarding many folk… that if you just sit them down and TALK (NOT DEMAND or LECTURE!) most, wouldn’t agree with Baldwin. Fundamentalist, Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Jewish, ....etc. Down deep they DO NOT AGREE with what Baldwin is asserting.
Usually, you’ll find they like their Fire Department, their Libraries and their Public Schools. I find Schools to be a more argumentative issue for most when regarding these three, but STILL they don’t disagree with the premise of public education.
What is needed is more OPEN DISCUSSION, without the screaming and name-calling. Goddamn it, I don’t listen to anyone that SCREAMS at me. My brain goes into STFU mode, and the conversation is done as far as I’m concerned.
Obviously… there are those who WILL NEVER LISTEN NO MATTER WHAT! I suggest contacting extremists as a last resort. On the upside, EVERYONE needs to calm the fuck down and TALK.
AND BE WILLING TO LISTEN.
My god, I feel like I’m talking to my ten-year old…. and at times I think I AM!
Report thisBy jack, October 28, 2008 at 4:41 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE:
—try going to most “progressive” blogs. Post a somewhat negative analysis of one of Obama’s policies.(This one, so far, excepted!) Try to log in the next day.
have heard of this, and worse: goon squads - haven’t got the time to be doing that much probing around, but zealous mobs are not uncommon surrounding populists of any stripe
one analysis is that Obama is the best cover now going for the Shadow Gov.
Q: who’d face more resistance in ordering The 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team to fire on American dissidents, Mad Dog McCain or Good Shepherd Obama?
Report thisBy Saddler, October 28, 2008 at 3:51 am #
Hedges is off on an ideological indulgence trip again. The forces he is talking about here exist, but they are rather small in number and power, and it remains to be seen if they are going to necessarily get bigger any time soon.
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