She--I am not as optimistic as you are about an Obama administration, but, I will certainly try to give it a chance.

I also do not want Ohio to be the source of agony again, for Ohioans of decent character, and others.

These assholes here have made me feel very sad amd angry. I guses I have been in denial. I refuse to give them the satisfaction of voting against Obama.

The home of the Underground Railroad. The first state against teh Confederacy. How humiliating. Thanks, Ohio (Oh-hell-hole)

Oh, way to go, ohio

If we were not just pissing in the wind KDelphi, I would strike a bargain with you to be relentless in letting Obama and his administration know how we feel and will be public watchdogs that they do what they promise. 

Looks like Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen are expressing their support for Obama.  See latest issue of Rolling Stone, admittedly a left leaning entertainment world newspaper.  Celebrities like Matt Damon and George Clooney ought to do more since they have the ear of their fans and the media.  The word has to get out and a fire started that won’t stop burning until the voters have voted!  If it takes that kind of firestorm then so be it.  It is allowable.  What celebrities are standing up for McCain?  What kind of a fire is he lighting?  Not even his military colleagues are standing up with him?  Why not?

She--If Obama will be open to these kinds of appointments, we will truly get meaningful change.

With the racist situation in Ohio, along with the GOP “tricks”, I am not going to make my first Third Party vote in a decade, to not vote for an Af. Am.

I voted for Kerry. I like Obama alot more.

It is a strategic decison.

I have every hope that a Obama/Biden administration will foster less the laissez-faire attitude but the more open system to which you refer KDelphi.  I wonder if it is possible for Obama/Biden to find within their administration the likes of Nader and Kucinich?  Nader would in my estimation might be brilliant in Paulson’s office, and Kucinich in either ambassador to the United Nations, or a Cabinet position on human rights.  Bringing in these two into the O&B;administration would go a long way towards making their respective cults happier.

she--I would definitely go for a “social democracy”! If we could get one. I’m not a true follower of Marxism, but when societies get so far right that they are fascist (say, Pinochet, or Bush--kidding. Not completely equivalent!), sometimes people “jerk” left. It can go too far left. In countries with large indigenous, agrerian populations, I think that Marx is preferable to Friedman’s laessez-faire. But, surely, a more open system would be better still, and, wil probably happen. If the US will keeps its nose out for awhile, at least. Which, maybe this collapse will force us to do. More likley, we wil cut social services, and increase military--I hope agaisnt hope that that wlli not happen.

I accidentally posted this to another forum, oh well it is worth it to me to repeat it there as well.  My socialist mind agrees with you KDelphi.  The more I read and talk to people and see what is happening in this country and in the world the more i am convinced that the capitalist perspective only furthers the profit motive as you defined it; the empty pursuit of useless profits.  It is also the baronial system where the class system works to insure a heavy but very small elite at the top and the large sweating laborers at the bottom and a huge disenfranchised in the middle with very little incentive so hence the need for a welfare state.  I abhor communism as it has always fallen into the evilest of totalitarian corruption and the exploited poor by the tons of millions no matter where it was imposed have died and lived in abjectly horrible conditions.

Social democracy would fix that, I am firmly convinced.  But changing from capitalism to an egalitarian economic system is next to impossible if not impossible which I think it is given the wealthy and powerful corporate-sustained, greedy, profit motive class.  I mean just watch the Market Reports where there is a view of those bidders on Wall Street at the Market Exchange houses, and they look like insane fools.  Yes, I love that quote Outraged and will make a small poster of it and put it up on the wall, If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance. Oh boy, that is the best one I’ve heard in a long time.  And the Dr. Seuss one was a doozie too.  Thank you.  Yes, I know that was on another forum.  It’s all right.

She--I wouldnt exactly say that Klein says that. But, it did “clean out” the biggest middle class in the Southern Cone of Latin America. They have mostly turned to Marxism, so if teh idea was to “spread capitalism” , it did not work. I feel that they are much better off, with a Marxist govt. IN any case, much more than the US can say, they did CHOOSE it.

Disaster capitalism has brought misery all over the world. It may not have intended it, in all places. But, even without millions dead or missing, Friedman maintained that it was the only way. It is associated with the School of the Americase,, in Foprt Bennign , Ga.  The World Bank, The Intl Monetary Fund, etc. I dont know what their intention was in the beginning--but I know the results.

The micro-loans program is also being co-opted,"for profits can provide more for more people”, and here we go again.

To my mind, until the necessities to survive are separated from the profit motive (the empty pursuit of uselses profits), there wil be no justice in the world.

I don’t need no stinking high blood pressure.  From what I could tell from the YouTube videos of Friedman in a kind of quasi debate with Klein, he was adamant about free trade and non-regulation.  Obviously his ideas did not work.  There seems to be a tacit implication that Friedman spread his ideas and that these fomented all the problems the world is facing to day.

Folktruther--True. And Friedman is bad for your blood pressure, if you happen to have a conscience.

She--I know that you do.

I wouldn’t waste time with either Friedman- Milton being ideologically insane- or with liberal economics, the most reactionary discipline in American social science next to political science.

But THE SCHOCK DOCTRINE is a must.  Thanks again KDelphi for pointing it out.

She--Here is one of yahoo’s group-s.

theanarchistcommune at yahoogroups dot com

Here is Naomi’s : naomiklein.org. Also, shockdoctrine.org.

Here is the video (I hope that i am doing this right): democracynow.org/2008/1+0/3/headlines

There is really no substite for the book, but Kindle is available, I think. I wrote all over mine--it is in papaerback.

I wish I was smarter. I could get this stuff tight.

It just seemed to al fall into place as I read her book. I cried alot--seriously! And I rejoined some groups I had drifted away from since college. I hope that some of this works.

Thanks for giving a shit enoough to check things out!

She--I saw the video. It just seems a little easy to live in a Swedish welfare state (his words) and have the highest standard of living in the world and keep promoting capitalism. He would conmpletley agree with Friedman and dispute Klein. I just do not happen to agree.

Alot of what I found is in Swedish. My grandmother is dead, so I cant ask her (lol) But here is his website. You can decide for yourself.

I can ask my uncle if he knows him. He has worked for the CATO Institute (barf), thinks that global warming is a myth, loves the World Bank/IMF etc, and --Star Trek! Put on a tinfoil hat and carry a barf bag. Sorry..I’m sure you can make up your own mind very well. As my gm wouldve said, “You betcha you can! Yah!”

http://www.johannorberg.net/

This Swedish guy is the one who is an embarassment to the Scandanavians, the one who denies global warming.

He claims her ideas are simplistic and not proven

Please read “The Shock Doctrine"--tell me what you think , then.
I dont agree with every statistic she gives, but, in general, her theory explains alot of Bushism.

Keep looking for the link--and some contrary opinions to the “swedish embarassment”. LOL. BRB

So in my quest for the Klein YouTube video, still can’t find it, I listened to the Friedman debates Klein.  Rather one sided I’d say.  The value of learning critical thinking.  While Friedman seems to have some interesting theories about free markets, they didn’t give Klein a half a rat’s ass chance of giving her anti-thesis.  Antithesis.  I will watch the second part of this debate but with a more squinty eye.  If anyone has the site for the Klein discussion, I’d appreciate it.  Mercy mercy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqLAYg6pDGg&eurl =http://www.friedmanfacts.com/

In my search for the Klein YouTube inteview I ran across this interview with another fellow Johan Norberg who criticizes Naomi Klein.  Please see what you think, Folktruther and KDelphi.  I don’t want to just believe everything I see!  I will seek others advice as well.  But thank you ahead of time for yours.  i still haven’t found the Klein piece.  I’m still looking.

KDelphi, I will check out both Friedmans.  What fun!  Economics and flat earth!  Thank your for your recommendations too.  This is better than signing up for a course in economics at Weatherford City College!

Milton Friedman, not to be confused with (but easily done so, and easy to see why) THOMAS Friedman, ala’ “The Earth is Flat and Can Tilt It And I Have Money and Dont give Rats Ass If You fall Off”.

Not that one. But, getting warm.

She--Klein will give you an intro. to Friedman, but he has to be read to be truly beliveed. If someone thinks that laissez-faire capitalism is the the way to go after reading Friedman, I dont know what to think.

I have a youtube of Klein’s “anti-Friedman” talk she gave at U. of Chicago School (of Eco.), if someone hasnt already seen it--I think it was on AlterNet and Democracy Now, also.

She renewed my faith in socialism, and hope for a social or socialist democracy in the uS.

I am completely unfamiliar with Milton Friedman, although I have heard his name bandied about with respect to economics.  I am getting a rather interesting mini course by being on these forums from you and the other economic mimirs. Klein’s book has been recommended to me before as an excellent resource.  Thank you Folktruther for your kind suggestion about Ojai.  I know that place very well. It would be a wonderful place to live.  I worked for nearly 10 years as an adjunct professor in Southern California.

The trial of Saddam was funded and orchestrated by the US, Ms S.  It cost a hundred and sixty million dollars accoding to the figures I read.  Iraq under the Baths and Saddam, who specialized in torture, was an Eden compared to what it has become under the US.

Saddam Hussein was a prime example of a brutal totalitarian dictator.  What he did to Iraqi people (and I refrain on purpose from saying “the” Iraqi people because he was selective with a bias to his own sect) is comparable in atrocity as any dictator in the history of the world.  This kind of atrocity is not descriptive only in the last hundred or so years, but can be found in regimes throughout the history of mankind; entire tribes have been wiped out if history is read in Latin American, Asian, and African imperiums, North American tribal people, and the shiekdoms and pharoahic kingdoms of the Arab world, not the least the caucasian hordes such as the Crusaders and Norsemen.  Exterminating “other” peoples is the history of mankind. 

Realizing this led me to wonder about the word civilized and the definition I find best is the one that says to be civilized is a condition of a people that shows evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable. 

That Saddam Hussein was tried, convicted, and executed testifies to the justice as Iraqis saw it since Hussein’s crimes were perpetrated against them and other Arabs.  They, the victims, however, are not completely innocent of the stain of murder that occasioned itself in their groups and because of that invited the unbridled violence against them from a dictator who would without a doubt retaliate without a second thought since lex talionis (eye for an eye) rules in barely civilized nations.  The fact that they are Muslims is totally irrelevant.  An argument can be made that ethnicity strongly harbors tit for tat mentality not unlike all ethnic attitudes dealing with aggressions.  Often it evolves into what we call racism, but that term has come to have other meanings.  He murdered entire families and wiped out whole communities out of arrogant power. 

What, though, is our crime in the Middle East?  America’s is that they took it upon themselves to intrude on Iraq and Arab affairs under the insincere guise of imposing democracy, when the real reason was and still is for oil.  For a sovereign nation to remain sovereign, the people must find the courage to overthrow tyranny from within, regardless of the poverty that courage is at first.  Else they become beholden and enslaved by the power from without.  Had the Iraqi people started a civil war then pleaded for help that would have been one thing, but the fact is they were not ready to do that.  Personally I do not think a three-way division of Iraq would be a bad thing and would be similar to any other country that is divided into states, i.e., the United States, Mexico, the provinces of China, India, and so forth.  The winning of statehood in the United States was often fought with great animosity and bloody fierce fighting.  The states, sovereign states, eventually came to peaceful solutions and united into one country.

Invited to the forum by another poster, I see I have a lot of reading to do this morning.  Thank you kath cantarella, the link to Middle East Online looks very interesting.

troublesum, your link to templeton.org is the best!  Thank you it is a treasure gift.

The “embedded-ness” of the journalists , in this “war” will ensure that most will never know alot about what happened in Iraq. So, if youd rather not know--dont worry.

US Forces (I put it that way because I dont know who are US soldiers and who are Blackwater or other contracters anymore), did alot more than “strip and put hoods on” Iraqis. Some of the people tortured by Taylor and England were killed. Some had already been tyhere when we arrived--who knows why.Taylor had been fired from a prison guard’s job, before joining the nilitary, for “sado-masochistic behavior with inmates”. England just seemed like a dim follower to me.

When Rummy saw Taylor’s record, he must have thought--well thats my kind of soldier!

I think that bumper stickers are cheap and stupid. If people want to support the troops--they should have rationing, go themselves, etc.. We shoudl get them the fuck out of there. But we cannot desert them when they come home.We did that once. If we do it again, we should not be forgiven.

quad,

At first I was going to agree with you on “Mankind cannot peacefully get along”, but I disagree.  There are societies who respect others differences and live in peace, I just cannot name any.  Maybe women are correct, this should be a woman’s world, for is it possible womankind could peacefully get along?

Life and death of people as depicted on television is a lesser form of entertainment, collateral and targeted deaths are the same to the american people, both receive much less importance in peoples minds, than a football game or “American Idol”.

During WWII the Brits and the USA indiscriminately bombed cities filled with civilians. This occurred in Europe as well as in Japan. Might makes right is what they told the people. Civilans have always been the victims for death merchants.

leilah,

Thanks for the complement.

The war seems to be on the back burners, my disappointment are the hawk like sounds coming from Obama, so much for hope.  His main difference between Hillary and himself were he was against the war in the beginning.  How about being against the war now? Posturing by Obama may be political, tell that to those being killed.  Pandering is no excuse for the deaths of others.

Interesting, my aversion to war for any reason except protection makes me a pacifist?

This article on the war will slip into the back pages of obscurity, while Palin and the first dude cover the headlines, all part of the plain me thinks.

Fisk always thought journalists should be the first impartial witness to history so that no one can say “we didn’t know, no one told us”. After a conversion with his college Amira Hass, Fisk adapt Hass definition “ our job is to monitor the centers of power” to challenge authority-all authority especially so when governments and politicians take us to war, when they have decided that they will kill and other will be killed.*

* paraphrased from “The great war for Civilization” Fisk 2005

Leefeller,

I just watched Frank Schaeffer on Democracy NOW! and your post sounds more like a thoughtful indictment rather than a rant.
I love your posts.

Had to work all day, so warning, warning, ranting follows:

Manipulation of our youth by the media and even war games on computers or xbox game machines, may be culpable, but not as much as most of the citizens in their blind ignorance, both see collateral damage as a non issue, compassion is absent from the majority.  Flag waving and flag pin mentality make a game of death, of course, someone else’s death.

Our nation is sick, and has in the past promoted the exploitation of others, just look at how our government treated the Indians, Japanese during WWII and now the demonizing of the minority illegals. It is a induced fear of us and them, always so well accepted by ignorance. 

War is despicable by itself, the way our government listens to corporate opportunism is more so. Again, ignorance, fear and a constant chicken little routine by our government, dupes the ignorant masses.  Media especially effective right wing crapolia sponsored by the likes FOX, Limbaugh, and others preforming their self righteous hate spewed rantings. The greatness of our country that can do no wrong.  Now we see the same approach used against Obama.

Pithy!

Everything happens for a reason.

I wonder if Americans would be so gracious to invaders who killed their families and called it collateral damage.  Americans, I think, not only don’t see it that way and ask that question, they are incapable of considering it. 
Latest report says that the military has reached its recruiting goals.  Has the American youth gone completely insane? 
Is killing that big a part of being considered a real man or a real woman?  Is that heroism? Is thanking them for their service like saying thanks for going over there and killing those innocent people?
It is obvious to me after Vietnam, that war is about killing and inflicting pain on the populace.  The ultimate goal of course is monetary or geo-political, but the killing is brought down upon the innocent. 
Robert Fisk once more writes a great piece.  If only leaders would read him.

Don’t just do something, Outraged and Fehenheit, sit there and talk!  We need to talk, talk, talk.  Because we don’t know what to do.  Our electoral, union and other people institutions have largely been destroyed, and only the shells remain.  How can we create others to exert people power against oppressive power?  We don’t know. 

I suggest to you that we don’t know.  After the 9/11-anthrax homicides kickstarted the fraudulent War on Terrorism, we are in uncharted ideological territory here.  How can we unite and mobilize against the bipartisan police state that is being imposed on us?

I have suggested that we break with the Dem party ideology, although it can be used tactically without illusions.  I have suggested that we need a spiritual ideology of some kind.  I have suggested that such an ideology will subvert the Western worldview that has legitmated liberal Democracies the past few centuries.  It will bridge the tradition Western gap between the scientific tradition and the religious tradition.

But suggestions are not enough.  Meat must be put on conceptual bones, and this is the function of the population.  We have been Educated, Informed and Entertained from the perspective of the ruling power structure.  We must develop an ideology form the perspective of the general population ruled by the power structure.

Just as folk art is being recognized now as perculating up into mainstream art, so folk theory can be developed to unite progressives and can evenetually be validated in the mainstream truth.  As elements of marxism and religion were.

We are not doomed, Fehenheit.  But we are definitely in danger. And we have to do something different; I don’t know exactly what. So we need to talk and see what we write in order to know what we think. Talk, talk, talk, it’s enough to drive you up the wall. But when viewed historically, thinking is a communal act.

Market rally today, so why would they be inclined to tell the profiteers to fuck off? Opportunist actions do not worry about little things like Collateral Damage. 

The last two debates were about how we are going to take Osama out, even if we have to follow him the the gates of hell.

General population does not have a clue, they only know fear. 

As for the responsibility of the service men to lay down their arms is not going to happen, they are following orders, if you have not been in the military the whole thing depends on following orders,for the safety of their fellow troops and themselves, they may even believe they are spreading democracy, for lies may be all they hear.

Addendum;
Talk, talk, talk; hell, do something.  I’m with Outraged; “ All we NEED to do, is stop.  Well… and maybe tell the war profiteers to fuck off.”

“That’s it, in a nutshell. “

@ TheRealFish;
This discussion has fallen far from the tree.  You and Folktruther have taken the same tack away from Fisk’s point.  I do not blame “the troops”!  But I do hold those who are responsible for civilian deaths; from the individual boots on the ground to the President of the U.S. (I hate POTUS)!  And to say the troops are not vounteers is just plain wrong!  Just as in Viet Nam the ethnic minorities and poor whites do the fighting: Then by the draft and now by the all volunteer army.  Personal histories aside; both systems are corrupt.  My point was and is personal responsibility; EVERYBODIES!!

As to our “volunteer” force--please remember. Most of these peopel, by now, are under “stop loss”.

What they do, so that the elites cam avoid future political embarassment (well, they dont really anyway, do they?), is cut all funding to Job Corps, regular public school districts, , send jobs anywhere but here, raise minimum waqe only to where it will be laughed at in other civilized countris,. recruit in minority and poorer areas junior high scholls and hs, (like JROTC), and make student loans almost impossibel to pay back.

You live in Bumfuck, Louisiana. You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer--or maybe you are, and just had crappy, ill-funded schooling. If you join JROTC, you get to go to a better, private shcool. Your parent raised you in a atrailer and , maybe, you get caught with pot or your girlfriend get pregnant. What do you do.

So, it is voluntary, but it is not. If we have a draft--it still will be, largely. Because rich kids alwasy get out of it. We could make it harder--but these basterds making money off the armaments, etc. are not about to send their little trust fund brats.

So, this is the only war that is, both, fought by the poor and working classes, as well as paid for by the poor and working classes..

“Everybody’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s a really easy way: stop participating in it.”
Noam Chomsky

This is not fuckin’ rocket science here… It is unconscionably simple really.  Do we NEED to have a debate, an argument or discussion?

All we NEED to do, is stop.  Well… and maybe tell the war profiteers to fuck off.

That’s it, in a nutshell.

Fahrenheit: “Being the illegal invader and now occupier; it would seem weighted against us, not the Iraqis.  Your whole premise is incorrect.  It is incumbent for us to take the ultimate blame and act accordingly.  Sadly we will not do that.”

You may be right about that last comment—especially if we spend too much time focusing on the trees instead of the forest in which those trees are surrounded.

First, understand that while I did not serve, my slightly older brother served in the Rangers in the Mekong Delta in 1968. I was eligible 1A in the last year of the Vietnam draft and my number was 3 digits shy of going myself. I also have two relatives “in theater”—yes, some of those volunteers—where a third just got out of Afghanistan on medical disability and a fourth is awaiting orders.

Meaning?

1. Nobody has to explain to me who devises strategy and who follows orders, who constructs circumstances and who has to deal with them.

2. Nobody has to explain to me mistakes made 40 years ago. My brother was a part of that mistake and I nearly was. He and I very much disagree about that war but, tell truth, I believe he needs to feel it was “the good fight” to maintain his sanity.

3. I remember my brother being spat upon for having served in Vietnam—for having taken part in that “criminal endeavor”. It turned him into a Deep-Red Republican.

4. Those who commit wrongs as soldiers should be held to account, but that can never be equivocated into the same level of culpability with those who create the conditions in which the soldiers serve.

They volunteered to protect us. They have no voice in where they are deployed or under what orders (or lack thereof).

Vietnam: While William Calley took the brunt of the punishment and evidence demonstrated guilt, Captain Medina all the way up to Maj. Gen. Koster should have been held to account for the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. They gave orders—created conditions allowing such an atrocity—but all the attention was on the hands on the guns, not the causal factors that actually figuratively pulled the triggers.

Ditto with Abu Ghraib. Lynndie England’s smile was just too striking in those abhorrent photos to not have her be prosecuted, but where is Rumsfeld, Cheney and (very likely) Bush the Lesser right now? They are the ones that created the conditions, created the atmosphere, that promoted the tortures.

And to understand that *anybody*—any normally good person—is capable of committing atrocious acts if the circumstances for those acts are created, just look up Stanley Milgram’s 1963 psychological study on the matter (or read John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience” for a relevant discussion on the topic suited to today).

Final comment, since I have a familial interest in the matter: To hold “the troops”—whether volunteers or not—responsible as *a group* for such atrocities that occur is bigotry (e.g., my brother being spat upon).

My niece’s husband, their two children, and my nephew all volunteered (my brother was drafted, though he originally attempted to join). They volunteered for reasons beyond economic concerns (the pay is not that good considering what they must face); they volunteered because they felt a need to step up and help to protect this country.

They volunteered to be tools of defense, to be weapons in the US arsenal. They are good people who volunteered to put their lives on the line for you and for me. But read or re-familiarize yourself with Milgram’s scientific study and understand they could be placed in circumstance they did not create, and could do terrible things as a result.

The guilty parties are The Deciders, not those who, like my brother that joined under Johnson or my niece’s husband who joined under Clinton, find themselves serving under a Bad Decider, and whose shoddy decisions created the environment promoting bad results.

@folktruther;
“The realfish is quite right, Fehrenheit.  American soldiers are not volunteer, they are recruited.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Huh?
The rest of your post premised on......what?
That kind of circular logic/? is precisely the problem; we’re doomed.

Clash,

Responsibility is missing like accountability and of course integrity from our government, simply by it’s actions. Our society is desensitized in the death of others, and our government is desensitized in the deaths of it’s citizens, unless opportunism raises it lovely head.

Is the market responsible for America’s moral decline?  http://www.templeton.org/market

“The difference was Saddam Hussein was absolute dictator actin to protect his own privileged position in the world, with the power to practice benevolence or brutality as he saw fit. He was acting from a position of power, not desperation. He lived in palaces in constant luxury, not under the daily physical strain, emotional grind, and constant threat of death our troops face.-”

Wow, Frank. Sounds like Dubya, to me.

Collateral damage is gods will, ask Sarah, she knows.

“what is the difference between their revenge and that of Saddam? “

The difference was Saddam Hussein was absolute dictator actin to protect his own privileged position in the world, with the power to practice benevolence or brutality as he saw fit. He was acting from a position of power, not desperation. He lived in palaces in constant luxury, not under the daily physical strain, emotional grind, and constant threat of death our troops face.

Prolonged war will strip away the humanity of otherwise good men. Americans who commit atrocities are often just decent people pushed to the limits of sanity, and temporarily beyond in some cases, by the circumstances they have been placed in by the government. This does not excuse their actions, but it does not place them in the same sphere of criminality as Saddam Hussein.

Another big “OOPPPSS!!!” by the USA that will incite hatred to those of us who do not have Secret Service to protect us for the rest of our lives.

When will the world revolt against the USA?

I am not talking about cutting of sales or anything that would add to the already trillions of dollars the USA owes many countries, I am talking about an “attack” a real attack, not a bunch of fundamentalists that supposedly are responsible for September 11th 2001?

Those guys were from Saudi Arabian, where the Bush family and many other American families, have ties of years and relations that trump any relation these traitors have with the USA, their own “homeland” they claim to want to defend....sure they do, as long as it is with someone else’s blood and flesh, seeing as most war-mongers are chicken hawks and have never felt the dirt on their face as they jump to the ground while looking up and seeing a friend and fellow troop, get his body splattered apart!

The USA has over 700 “military” bases, in over 130 countries monitoring the world, acting as “big brother”.

Why wouldn’t people around the world want to nuke us off the face of the planet?

I do not blame them.

If you know of any of these people, please tell them not all of us Americans believe that our “leaders” are actually acting in our or thier best interest, but only their own, and remind them to wait until I am dead and gone before then decide to bomb us. I do not want to live in an area like the ones the USA has created all over the planet, to stop a dictator or supposed war and oppression of the people in the country. I do not want to live how they live in the Middle East; I do not want to get shot, when I take my dog for a walk around the block.

Thank you in advance.
Corey Mondello
Boston, Massachusetts
Born in the USA, citizen, son and friend, who believes that when the words, “We the People” were written, they were meant to be taken literally.
10-12-08

We could still hang W. That would send a message.

TheRealFish, October 11 at 7:49 pm
“The soldiers, while holding personal responsibility for any wrongdoings they commit, are not responsible for creating the circumstances in which they find themselves. They are trained to fight an enemy and are then placed somewhere to fight, but with no clear definition of who is the enemy.”

I must take issue with that as well.  First, the military is now all volunteer.  After the insurgency started; one would have to be pretty uninformed (stupid) not to know what one was going to do as a soldier.  Some soldiers have refused to deploy and some have taken refuge in Canada.  This seems to me to be taking full responsibility for ones actions.  Your addressing victim hood and the soldiers who refuse deployment are refusing to be victims.  We did this 40+ years ago and learned nothing.  Watch a “Winter Soldier” clip on youtube.

Realfish:"Those are the circumstances in which both innocent Iraqi civilians and US soldiers find themselves. Neither had the power to create the circumstances in which they find themselves embedded.”

Being the illegal invader and now occupier; it would seem weighted against us, not the Iraqis.  Your whole premise is incorrect.  It is incumbent for us to take the ultimate blame and act accordingly.  Sadly we will not do that.

Fahrenheiet:

I didn’t avoid personal accountability in my comment. As I said then: “It is true that, as we argued at the Nuremberg Trials closing WWII, there are levels of personal responsibility for individual soldiers where it concerns committing individual war crimes. And when such crimes are committed guilty individuals must be held to account.”

What I very strongly object to is that Fisk appears to attempt drawing equivalence between the political purgings committed by Saddam Hussein and random incidents of vengeance killings committed by US troops.

The soldiers, while holding personal responsibility for any wrongdoings they commit, are not responsible for creating the circumstances in which they find themselves. They are trained to fight an enemy and are then placed somewhere to fight, but with no clear definition of who is the enemy.

Those are the circumstances in which both innocent Iraqi civilians and US soldiers find themselves. Neither had the power to create the circumstances in which they find themselves embedded.

Saddam controlled his circumstances until we rolled over his country. Bush the Lesser created the current circumstances on the ground in Iraq today. If comparisons must be drawn, focus on those who have the political might to alter the environment, not the victims of that toxic environment that results from their actions.

Folktruther--Very, very sad. Big lump in my throat.

But, it is so different when you see a blue collar guy sitting there balling his eyes out over it.

I hope that someone is up to not abandoning them again. Also, allow more refugees! From “our” wars.

KDelphi, nations always throw away their used veterans.  They are often maimed and emotional scared and the money used to treat them decently has to be taken from the means to kill the enemy.  They are an economical drag on the military.  Kipling wrote a poem about the survivors the Light Brigade which was decimated by blunders, and they were starving and ignored by a grateful power sywtem.

It is the same reason that combat troops shoot their prisoners.  It requires personel to handle them that could be used in combat.  It is why it is to the interest of combat units to have their casualties killed rather than wounded, because it takes more people to take care of the living.

War is hell, but the people not in battle prefer not to know it emotionally.  That is why Obama and McCain can both agree that it is fairer to draft the young than have a fraction of the working class volunteer.  It is much cheaper to have the young of the entire working class go thourh hell than a fraction. 

And it can be justified by pretending everyone will go to combat equally.  You will note that Cheney, Rumsfield, etc were not drafted and Bush deserted.  War is not hell for everyone.  It’s profits galore for a few. And death, horror, and poverty for the many.

same/same, really.

I in no way, want to trash the troops again, for what the Bush Inc. conceived and wrought. But, it is getting pretty convincing that this (collateral damaga) is being used as a strategy here.

As for the person who asked about “individual responsiblity"--taht is why war is such a bad idea. You cannot have a “well-regulated militia” thinking “individualistically"--that would mean a court martial--or worse.

Actually, we have had quite a few individual troops try to step forward.We should get behind them and encourage others to do the same.

That being said, although they are “volunteers” (stop-loss?), they are going to need support in the coming years. I hope that we do not do to them what we did to some Vietnam vets--especialy teh ones with PTSD, and the ones who came out against the war.

The costs of it should come from the military budget--make these rich ass people pay SOMETHING for this horror that they are profiting from!

I dont know--but I been told--

we should draft the folks who make the gold.

Interesting that the “troops” are seen as the “problem” which is what our own Gov is doing yet again with those that were sent with THEIR INSTRUCTIONS: that is correct folks, the troops are given instructions from the Pentagon & Congress & Pres & VP which they carry out: put the problem on the ROOT CAUSE: the Pentagon & Congress & the political agenda of the current supposedly 2 party system in the USA. Perhaps you were unaware that the same ROOT CAUSE is saying the “allied” meaning Americans were as bad as the Nazi’s: interesting that the ROOT CAUSE had collectively decided to oust Saddam Hussain in 1996: and the Pentagon used retired Pentagon military with close connections to their best pals the Corp profitteers to deliberately deceive & mislead the US CITIZENS as to the “problem” that Saddam “supposedly” posed: as well as Bush & Congress & Pentagon deliberately misled & deceived the citizens of the USA into thinking that the twin towers were caused by Hussain using his name in the same sentence repeatedly with the twin towers. Everything that our Gov officials said Hussain did: they have done themselves hundreds of times worse than he ever did. BTW, ours delight in telling others that they have ‘gotten away with it for years in the USA & they will never be taken to court or sentenced over it.

@ TheRealFish,
What a curious comment.

You say, “Why make the focus, on the American side, “the troops”? They are, collectively, a governmental tool, much the same as Saddam’s oft-waved sword, and that is where I feel his analogy breaks down and becomes needlessly overlong.”
The troops?  A government tool?  Where is their individual accountability?  Why are you talking about Saddam, he’s long dead. 
I’m sorry but your whole rant is lost on me; whats your point?
Fisk is simply asking; what’s the difference between our behavior and Saddams.  I don’t see any.  Possibly ours is worse, because we’re allegedly on the side of righteousness!

In both the progressive and conservative mainstream media, it is assumed that the bombing of non-combatants by the US is unintentional.  This isn’t true, difficult as it is for Americans to accept this.  Terror bombing of civilians has been US policy at least since WW2.  The nuclear bombing of Japanesse cities were simply a small dramatic illustration of this strategy.

The purpose of this more or less random bombing is to terrorize the civlian population.  It is part of the shock and awe strategy of the US military.  And the shock doctrine, as Naomi Klein demonstrated, is part of neolib fascism that is supported by both wings of the Dem-Gop bloc.

This was illustrated recented when US drones bombs some homes in Pakistan villages close to the Afghan border, killing a number of families in pursuit of activists.  Both Biden and McCain not only supported this atrocity in bipartisan accord, they rejoiced in it.  The media reported it noncomittally, when they reported it at all, sanitizing it.

The US polity now openly sanctions terror bombing, and torture under the fraudulent War on Terrorism.  Since it is much more powerful than Saddam, the horrors and mass atrocities it commits to promote Freedom and Democracy is much more extensive.  Having this policy legitimated on Foreign peoples, it is now explicited stated that it is going to be used on Americans.

The single greatest failure in Mr. Fisk’s analysis is that he appears to aim at all the wrong targets.

Where, for example, is one mention of Bush the Lesser or any of his minions? If talking about Saddam’s targeted attacks on one hand, then he fails to balance the equation with a leader’s action on the other side of the “=” sign.

Why make the focus, on the American side, “the troops”? They are, collectively, a governmental tool, much the same as Saddam’s oft-waved sword, and that is where I feel his analogy breaks down and becomes needlessly overlong.

That Saddam targeted his own non-combatant citizens is without doubt. That Bush the Lesser targeted Iraq where it posed no compelling threat to this nation is without doubt or argument.

It is true that, as we argued at the Nuremberg Trials closing WWII, there are levels of personal responsibility for individual soldiers where it concerns committing individual war crimes. And when such crimes are committed guilty individuals must be held to account.

But Joseph Mengele would never have had the opportunity to practice his psychopathic, sadistic perversions had Hitler and company not created death camps in the first place. He would have been your average, run-of-the-mill serial killer loose on the Bavarian public had Hitler not paved the avenue for his atrocities.

To raise a generalized sense of outrage at “the troops” for atrocities in Iraq, and then compare those atrocities to ones committed by Saddam simply feels like an odd, unfocused assertion to me.

I believe that odd, unfocused sense is exactly what created space for US troops to commit acts of vengeance anyway.

They were sent to invade a country without a compelling reason to do so.

They were not given clear objectives for what to do once the Iraqi government was torn down.

They, collectively, as a tool, are a killing machine all pumped with adrenaline and set loose without guidance as to who is their enemy, the focus for their deadly skills. They are being asked to win a fight, but have never been told (as we have never been told) what is meant, exactly, by “win.”

They have been, for too long on the ground in Iraq, an unguided missile with a lit fuse.

So, really: Are “the troops’” actions equivalent to atrocities committed by Sadda