Inherit The Wind,

I agree with you. We don’t bullshit artists, (and bad ones) taking up space here. We could hear the same shit on Fox noise.

But, there aren’t any genuine right wingers posting here. Racists…yeah, but no bona fide right wingers with any coherent arguments.

By troublesum, October 9 at 1:33 pm #

cy
Do you mean that anyone who doesn’t vote for Obama will be deported if he wins?  I thought he was going to open the camps.

~~~~~~

Nope, that isn’t at all what I meant bert. I meant that you’ll be so miserable YOURSELF when he wins, that I figured it was a good idea for you to start looking for alternative living space for the next 8 years.

You could hook up with all of the other men hating racists, and carve out a niche for yourselves. Maybe you could live with the fishes at the bottom of the deep red sea and become mermatrons…

Just a thought.

Leefeller, October 9 at 8:04 am #

In Both politics and in religion, indoctrination though peer connections, creates and supports these individual comfort zones. One can look to Plato’s cave for a simple analogy.
***********************************

Lee, I disagree.  We don’t need a troll like LindaS regurgitating Fox Noise sound bites and Coultergeist ghost stories.  Now if a real right-winger with a true intellectual argument showed up here I’d welcome her or him.

Because then you can debate facts, ideas and inferences from them, which is good for everybody.

But we get none of that from LindaS’s continual trolling flow of bullshit.  LindaS—We can get the sound bites and talking points Fox Noise posts without your help, thank you very much.

When you come back with a REAL argument I’ll be the first to welcome you and try to rebut it, but not this Limbaugh/Hannity/Hume talking point crap!

BTW, didja notice?  The dirty and deeper into the gutter the McCain campaign goes, the HIGHER Obama’s ranking goes in the polls!

cy
Do you mean that anyone who doesn’t vote for Obama will be deported if he wins?  I thought he was going to open the camps.

Actually troublesum,

The charge on Nader being an egomaniac may have come from the NYT in 2000, but that’s not when or how I figured it out. In case you’re unaware, (since you only just began supporting Nader after your girlfriend Hillary lost to Obama) this isn’t Nader’s first bar-b-que. He’s done this same shit 4 times before. I’m also not a youngster myself, so I’m VERY WELL AWARE of Nader’s public service history.

He has been a CONSUMER ADVOCATE! That’s it. It’s very helpful for those who CONSUME. Washing machines, (and other household appliances) cars and their safety records. It’s not that we don’t appreciate what he did decades ago, but in the past 2 decades, he’s done nothing more or less than I have.

As for running for school board, Obama didn’t. All we wanna know from Ralph and his cult his why he’s never run for ANY public office? Even McKinney was a Congresswoman. So, what’s up with Nader? Not so much a public servant after all, eh?

Start looking for someplace to emigrate troublesum. Guess it’ll have to be someplace that you can get to on foot. Otherwise, you’d have to depend on a corporation to get you there.

I forgot, “labor unions” and “impeachment.”  In fairness one would have to admit that Sarah Palin has mentioned labor unions on the campaign trail.

AIG announced that it wants another $38 billion from the feds even after it became known that some of its executives spent $450,000 of the original bailout money on carribean vacations.  No doubt Obama will be first in line to support them in their hour of need.

Ralph Nader asked people to listen for the following words in Tuesday night’s debate: “working class”, “Taft-Hartley”, “single payer health care”, “corporate power” “military industial complex”,...  People say Nader doesn’t have a sense of humor.

All that Nader has ever asked of the democratic candidates is that they get back to representing the public interest over the interests of corporations and they have been unwilling to do that.  The democratic party is the party of wall street.  That much is clear now following the bailout swindle.

but Nader is and always has been the only candidate for real change and real solutions in this election And for you who think Nader is not helping to build a political party, in my state is running under the banner of the Peace and Freedom Party, and will with a little luck we will have automatic ballot status in 2 years.

~~

This is just sad and ideological rhetoric scottk. No time for that in these days of the great decline.

I didn’t say that Nader wasn’t helping to build a political party, but what he won’t do, has always refused to do, and will never do, is run for any office besides president. So, it doesn’t matter whether he’s trying to ‘build’ a political party or not. What’s to ‘build’ and why would you? There are SIX political parties represented on the ballot this election. Who cares what they are, when it’s just the same people grabbing whatever group name they think of? What difference does ‘status’ make if the party and the candidate are on the ballot? Hell, you could run under the Tea and Crumpet Party, but if you have never bothered to distinguish yourself with a willingness to work within the system in a multiple party set-up, you aren’t gonna win.

As for Obama and FISA, we’ve been over that time and time again, and I’m tired of teaching this basic civics lesson. Obama didn’t write or pass FISA. He did write a revision to the House version that would NOT provide immunity to the telecoms. His revision did not pass. And, the FISA legislation, whether we like it or not, was approved by well over 2/3rds of the Congress. His vote, one way or the other, wasn’t gonna change that.

Meantime, Professor Nader has certainly made it convenient for his cult to follow him. Can’t very well hold any ‘votes’ against him when he’s never been elected to anything in order to cast one….EVER. I call that an egomaniac.

BTW, don’t you think it’s a little scary to have to depend on ‘luck’ to get an automatic status on a ballot? And again, what difference does it make if you have an ‘automatic’ status if you can’t deliver the candidates?

Tony Wicher,

Don’t misinterperet my motives for posting the history behind the Weathermen. I do not endorse their actions and those very acts of violent civil disobedience (or terrorism, if you prefer) may well have backfired on them. My point was simply to put into context the political climate from which they emerged.

Each of their members were very well educated and their attacks were on the “symbols of American injustice”, never on people.

Again, I do not support their violent tactics. I also do not support invading and occupying the soverign nation of Iraq and killing over a million innocent people because of the lies of Bush and his greedy warmongering cronies.

We must remember that in a democracy, the role of government is to serve the people, not the role of the people to serve government. When this type of dictatorial government takes hold, it is not just our right, it is our duty to overthrow it. This is what our election process is all about and why it is so important for us to keep McCain/Palin out of the white house.

Political parties form around leaders, not school boards or city councils.  It is propaganda put out by the ruling elite that you must run for school board first because they know you’ll be dead before you achieve anything of significance that way.  The system is set up to enable those in power to keep it and to encourage their lap dog servants like Obama to help them keep it.  Most people agree that the so called debate was nothing but hot air.  Should we be killing people in Iraq or in Afganistan?  Should we have a mediocre health care system or an average one?
Should we cut taxes for 45% of the people or for 46%?
And everyone agrees that if Nader and/or McKinney had been there we would have seen a debate which is why they weren’t.  The charge that Nader is an egoist came from the NY Times in 2000 and it has been repeated endlessly since then.  The idea being that they couldn’t argue with Nader on the issues so they had to attack him personally.  Now that’s propaganda.  In the Soviet Union the same charge was made against people who didn’t adhere to the party line.  They were egoists who were a threat to the purity of the party.  Our system is so much like their’s.

By Leefeller, October 8 at 11:48 am #

Tony Witcher

Depends on what you mean by progressive? I agree he seemed to have won the debate.  Compared to someone like Kucinich I just do not see Obama as progressive.

I suggest progressives do not say they will follow someone to the gates of hell, nor would they say they would hunt them down and kill them, unless they are going after wolves in an airplane?
——————————————————————————-Leefeller,

“Progessive” is a relative term, like right and left or up and down or large and small. Obama is less progressive than Kucinich but more progressive than McCain. “Progressive” does not mean pacifist. Most progressives believe that it is necessary to use force in many different situations. The pacifistic response to imperialism and militarism is just another reaction. “War is not the answer”. Neither is pacifism.

RE Leefeller, October 9 at 8:04 am

Well, maybe you’re right. This is a predominantly progressive site, but having someone like Linda S. in the mix does make it more interesting than always preaching to the choir. I would like to understand how anyone with a brain could possibly support such a record-breaking airhead as Sarah Palin. Wow, I mean there is literally no difference between Palin and the Tina Fey caricature. I don’t get it. Linda S., please help me understand.

ITW,

Since we seem to be preaching to the chore most of the time here on TD, I find myself hoping for some refreshing and coherent dialog when someone like Linda S comes along, we very seldom get anything but Fox sound bites.

My support of the premise people like Linda S and others, if they are real, are born with a strong desire to protect what they see as their comforat zones, they do not seem able to use reason as and discussion as others may. 

In Both politics and in religion, indoctrination though peer connections, creates and supports these individual comfort zones. One can look to Plato’s cave for a simple analogy.

Re hyrum, October 8 at 11:22 pm #

I was actually impressed with Obama’s response, because he spoke his true belief, and didn’t beat around the bush, or even stutter or ramble too much. Like a true socialist, he said that he believes that health care is a right. This is a far cry from the inalienable rights of life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness that our founding fathers declared.
—————————————————————————-
Well, thank you! As an international socialist myself and a big Obama supporter, I hope you are right. But tell me this: if a person has a “right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, it would seem to me to follow immediately that he has a right to health care, which is a necessary condition for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If I have a right to life, then why don’t I have a right to medical care to preserve and extend that life?

Ayers paid his debt to society, was rehabilitated and has been a model citizen for thirty years, as everybody knows, including the Annenbergs.
He is an honorable and productive member of society, and anybody should be proud to know him.

Bringing him up is sheer desperation. Linda S. is obviously a troll. We should not waste time responding to her.

Re JFoster2k, October 8 at 8:09 pm

I suppose you can argue the Weathemen’s hearts were in the right place, but actions such as these were at best naive and they did the progressive movement a great deal of harm. They facilitated the election of Nixon and the following era of Republican reaction that is only now ending. I’m glad that they have acquired some wisdom in their old age and the folly of their youth can be forgiven. What I can’t forgive is people who are incapable of learning anything still talking the same way after 40 years of disaster.

LindaS. = TROLL

Notice how she keeps posting the same thing on thread after thread?  She’s not interested in truth or debate.  She’s just interested in clogging up a progressive website.

Linda S,

I’m not asking nonsense, i’m asking questions that you don’t want to answer.

Your world view is too small to see both sides of a question, apparently. You represent one of the fundamental problems confronting American democracy. I realize that you probably don’t really care about American democracy.

But here, i’ll reduce my questions to just one: John McCain’s close relationship with Charles Keating…a convicted felon who’s behavior cost the American taxpayer billions of dollars. Answer the question and we’ll talk about Obama’s relationships.

And quit spamming these boards with the same stupid post on every thread.

re: Linda S

I gather from posting your CNN link you believe that Obama has some kind of secret agenda hatched by the unrepentent radical of the 1960’s?
Try to consider this, if Ayers is the great terrorist that fountains of wisdom such as Governor Palin claim him to be, then why is he walking around? Why would he serve on the board of an Annenberg Foundation project? Or does that by direct association imply that the Annenbergs, who were good friends with Ronald Reagan, are actually terrorists? And shouldn’t the Reagan family be put on a “family of interest” list by the FBI, since they too had an association with the Annenbergs, who had an association with Bill Ayers, who had an association with Barack Obama.
Does it ever occur to anyone that Bill Ayers was more than likely working for the government during those radical years? How else can you explain that a known domestic terrorist is still walking around and able to infect all that he comes in contact with? A rather handy prop for the Governor of Alaska, who’s own biography is paper tissue thin. Never mind that her extremist anti-abortion views sit fine and dandy with the Eric Rudolphs of this world. No matter, the purveyor of Pegler is not interested in truth.

After watching a video tape of alleged Palin supporters, I have trouble believing they actually have brains in their heads, we know Palin doesn’t Palin appeals to ignorance, we need to appricate the fact McCain may not last very long, so Palin the secessionist, wolf killer, bridge to know where who believes in witches person will be our betcha wink, wink go to guy.

John McCain’s contemptuous and derogatory pointing at without looking at Obama, calling him “that one,” just goes to show what the roots of his mentality and those in the Republican Party are.
If the Republicans believe - as they say they do - in individual success and free enterprise, then they should be applauding Obama as an American miracle and not something you scrape from the bottom of your shoe, or that the cat brought in.
Of course, brainless smear tactics are their way, and will get much worse before the election approaches.
Nothing’s over until the fat lady sings, or until “it’s down to the last wire,” to quote one presidential figure.
McCain, like Bush, because of his priveliged legatorial status, is totally out of touch, while Sara Palin - quite brainlessly - is on another planet.
Obama, to really be a son of change, needs to really be radical, from healthcare to energy. Deploying more troops in Afghanistan (unless it’s to pacifically rebuild the country), to continue a war The U S can’t win, is both senseless pointless - and the ‘open’ policy to bomb Pakistan is just plain stupid.
Unless he’s a corporate stooge or cave-in, I’d agree, he came across as more presidential and practical.
If he’s - as seems to be obvious - in touch with America’s reality, then it’s a start.

hyrum,

As soon as I saw your name, I knew what you were going to say.

Meantime, Obama was absolutely correct that health care, like housing and food, are HUMAN RIGHTS!! This is the 21st Century, and Human Rights are no longer a foreign concept.

You don’t seem to have much of a clue about the Constitution, (Obama is a professor of Consitutional Law) and that’s where you fail to understand that the government OBVIOUSLY wasn’t set up ONLY for the purpose of protecting individual rights. If that was the only purpose, then we wouldn’t need a government.

So, for instance, how does a Constitution that calls for conscription ONLY protect individual rights? Suppose one doesn’t wish to be ‘conscripted’ into a military? In other words, if that was the only purpose, we wouldn’t need a Constitution. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Yes, Obama answered that question correctly as a American, and a Constitutionalist, and a believer in human rights. It has nothing to do with Marx or God.

And John McCain wasn’t pandering. He was doddering. He’s a doddering old corrupt fool, and not the only one to undergo torture or crash an airplane and be captured. That’s not a qualification for president. It just means that he was captured in a military adventure that should never have been waged, not unlike the War ON Iraq, that has destroyed a sovereign nation state, and millions of it’s inhabitants. John is fine with that too, but if there actually was a god, it’s highly unlikely that it would be OK with Her.

John needs to stop trying to pander to the left. He’s sounding too much like Barrack on a few of the issues. He needs to differentiate himself. People need to see a clear distinction.

I was so disgusted about 15 minutes into the debate that I had to turn it off. I flipped it back on again for the last 35 minutes.

It really wasn’t an exciting debate at all; rather depressing to say the least. A Marxist liar on the left hand and a panderer on the right.

However, there was a brief respite when Brokaw asked if health care was a right, a privilege, or a responsibility.

I was actually impressed with Obama’s response, because he spoke his true belief, and didn’t beat around the bush, or even stutter or ramble too much. Like a true socialist, he said that he believes that health care is a right. This is a far cry from the inalienable rights of life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness that our founding fathers declared.

What God has given to man, no government has the right to take away. What the government grants, he can take away. We created government for the sole purpose of protecting our individual rights; not to grant us new rights with the power to withdraw them at will.

I was happy with McCain’s response. He stated that he believed health care was a responsibility, not a right granted by government. It’s comforting to know that he’s at least sensible on a few things. Of course he is still far and away a better option than Obama.

You can’t deny from John’s record that he truly does love this country, has fought for it, stood up for it, bled and agonized for it, and believes in it and it’s people. His perseverance through his 5 years as a prisoner of war, his military service, leadership, and stalwartness in the Senate are all quite commendable and clearly shows his character and good judgment.

On the other hand, Barrack lacks leadership, experience, character, and judgment. He has a Marxist totalitarian ideology and agenda. But, you wouldn’t be able to gather all of this from the debate. To think that there are people who would make a voting decision solely based on a debate or two and some carefully crafted deceitful television advertisements is a scary thought indeed.

I believe our last best hope is Sarah Palin; a true and proven reformer who has a solid foundation of correct principles that she holds fast to. She is who she says she is and who she appears to be.

Sarah will bring real change. Not the kind of change and hope that Obama touts.

He speaks of change and writes about the audacity of hope. How about the audacity of Obama. I mean, who writes an autobiography at the age of 34 with no real achievements to speak of? At least Adolf Hitler waited until he was 36 to write “Mein Kampf”. Who creates their own presidential seal, and before they’re even in office? Who paints over the national symbol with his own? Who has children sing to him? Who refers to the media as a police force? What else does Obama and Hitler have in common?

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By jackpine savage, October 8 at 6:52 pm

Jackpine savage writes to troublesum:

•  “But what’s “propaganda” about taking control of local government first? Maybe i’m just not “top down” enough.”

Nothing at all jackpine, she (troublesum) just didn’t get your point. (happens a lot with her). There obviously are no ‘rules’ about who can run for President, aside from the standard, minimum age of 35, must be a US born citizen, whatever else. And of course she doesn’t get what you mean about entering the political system at the local level, REGARDLESS of one’s party. Obviously, Nader doesn’t either. Nobody said it was a ‘rule’ but just a tiny glance at history gives a pretty good clue. Jumping around from party to party generally doesn’t bode well for anyone attempting to become the president, although one preferring to simply REMAIN “Independent” would probably have a better chance. To my knowledge, Bernie Sanders has never been aligned with a party, and his constituency keeps sending him to the Congress, (both house and Senate I think) and on and on.

But more importantly then the ‘party swaps’ is just the whole thing that most people understand and appreciate about the experience involved in working within the political system, regardless of what ‘party’ one happens to choose. (in earlier centuries one was assumed to maintain specific ideological principles in line with those of the party). Needless to say, that doesn’t seem to hold with the current bunch, since they are any BUT the conservatives that Republicans had been known for. I mean, we’ve never had a bunch this radical in my own memory, and that includes some ways back. (I’ll have to remember to ask one of the historians here at my institution, who is also a Constitutional Law Professor, if she can think of anyone more radical than the bush-cheney gang)

Still, my point is that your expectations, (bottom up, not top down) are pretty much in line with the norm. The MAJORITY of politicians who become president (and we expect a President to know something about politics and how the US Political system operates, and how the Constitution works, (or is supposed to) do begin their political careers within the system, as an ELECTED member of it. Even GW did that much, (though it was even less than Palin’s so-called experience, and nobody much understands how GW got to be Governor of ANY state, but I guess TX fits.) Now of course GW held NO political office prior to that short governorship, and Karl Rove got him the job. And, even Cynthia McKinney has done that much, since she’s got some time under her belt in the Congress as a Democrat

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So, it’s just Ralph Nader (and apparently troublesum) who think that they don’t have to bother with any of the initial steps in making themselves known to the US population by way of involvement in the legislature (at whatever level) and cutting their political teeth within the system. Now THAT would be more like propaganda.

It’s interesting to hear from the renegades who support Nader, (at least this time around…this being his 5th unsuccessful run) because in this election, there are more than the standard issues. One biggie of course is the racist thing, (even though I don’t know how much more acceptable an Arab-American is to an African-American for die-hard racists) but it’s more complicated than that, because there is a small percentage of internalized racism going on as well. (black folks and other people of color who won’t vote for Obama, surprisingly for many of the same reasons that white racists won’t vote for him). But I don’t think that ALL of Nader’s supporters are racists. (otherwise, they wouldn’t be OK with an Arab-American either).

So for them, it’s also a matter of propaganda. (Just vote for me because I had some really good CONSUMER protection ideas back in the day…seat belts and all)They’ve convinced themselves that Obama is a standard ‘corporate’ candidate, without any clue to the real meaning of a corporate candidate in terms of the reality of the 21st Century. In fact, if somebody really was interested in doing a work up, I suspect they would find far more ‘corporate ties’ to Nader than to Obama, if only because, (though it wouldn’t be the only reason) Nadar has been around so much longer. It’s really an ironic paradox, but it just proves how propaganda can play on individual ideologies.

Purple Girl, thanks for mentioning the bin Laden angle, supported by none other than McCain. I thought the VERY same thing when he said it, and I wondered why Obama didn’t come back with that immediately. (obviously you and I would have )

McCain CREATED bin Laden and al-Qaeda. (or at least provided material support - the ‘created’ part might be a little rhetorical, but what the hell.)

I support what Bill Ayer’s did, and what ELF activists do; I don’t think it is ‘violence’ to destroy the property of corrupt corporations or governments that have murdered millions of people, destroyed ecosystems, or ruined countless lives.

Re: jackpine savage

In addition, realize that Chomsky mentions SCHOOLS several times.  I have found this to be true, although it depends on location and civic involvement.  But I have experienced this “do, don’t think, mentality many times.  In fact, it was one of several factors which forced me (through conscience) to withdraw my child from public education.

Re: jackpine savage

Your comment: “See, that’s the difference. They may have come onto the scene with a bang, but they made a bang by building a party. Nader doesn’t have a party; he’s just a guy who thinks he should be president…no different than me, except that i don’t want the job.

Nader is POLLING higher than the green party and this is significant.  MANY will vote for Nader, and that is the REASON Nader is denied the opportunity to debate.  Manipulating the populous to attain an outcome in the interests of monied interests is not new.

Noam Chomsky(9min):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K2uBI61z4

Either way… this, that or the other thing…. were does it get you?

Are you going to hold Obama’s “feet to the fire”.... I challenge you, how’s that been working so far?

Then again, I’m that “idiot” who thinks that people have rights… even the little people… you know those people don’t you?... the ones that only SOMETIMES count… like when they give you that fictious aura of superiority…. maybe you read “a few books” on the topic…  read a book about digging a ditch, dig a ditch… I challenge you… is there a difference?... dig the fuckin’ ditch already… put up, or shut up.

Have you ever considered “digging ditches” 40 hrs a week, or maybe 50-60.  Nothing to it, just give the job to the “lessors”.  It’s easy.  It’s easier that bailing out crooks, isn’t it… isn’t it…well…isn’t it.  Yeah, that was tough… I’m just POSITIVE, that these two corporate candidates thought it over in the “most heartfelt of manner”.  There isn’t a doubt in my mind about what transpired…

Those of you who so quickly jump on the Bill Ayres smear-wagon just to support your preset opinion need to educate yourselves. Nothing happens overnight and there are two sides to every story. Since you obviously believe whatever your pundits tell you and are unwilling to research history yourselves, allow me to enlighten you.

The 1960’s and early 1970’s was a tumuluous time in the US. The war in Vietnam, civil rights violations and rampant racism were catalysts for a great social upheaval in this country. Students on every college campus from Berkley to Harvard protested injustice and imperialism.

The Weather Underground along with other activist groups such as the Black Panthers and the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) took to the streets in an attempt to bring about change. Much like our forefathers fought for independance from tyrany, these young men and women fought against an oppressive government. In their minds they were patriots.

While most protests at the time were peaceful, the Weathermen as they were called (they became known as the Weather Underground in 1970 when they went into hiding from the FBI) opted for a more forceful approach.

“Hello, I’m going to read a declaration of a state of war…within the next 14 days we will attack a symbol or institution of American injustice.” ~ Bernardine Dohrn

Years later, when asked about the bombings, a cofounder of the organization, Bernardine Dohrn, said the following in a 1994 interview:

“We only did a couple, and they were carefully done. They involved property and were not meant to harm anybody. They were symbolic and done so that everyone would instantly recognize what was being said. It was ‘armed propaganda’. Sure, it was violent, and it’s hard to justify twenty years later, but it was extremely restrained and a highly appropriate response to the level of violence being rained nationally and internationally”

In an interview following the publication of his memoirs, Ayers was quoted as saying he didn’t regret setting the bombs and that they didn’t do enough, but Ayers has repeatedly avowed that when he said he had “no regrets” and that “we didn’t do enough” he was speaking only in reference to his efforts to stop the United States from waging the Vietnam War, efforts which he has described as “. . . inadequate [as] the war dragged on for a decade.”

I do not condone their actions. Violence beggets violence. But in the context of the social climate of the time, it seemed (to them at least) to be the only way to be heard and bring about an end to the war.

Kerry won all debates against W as well. There was even the revelation and proof that the inane Bush wore a tranceiver and was coached. If voters had had any curiosity, they would have known that Bush was and is a corrupt fraud.

Bush still won or at least got close enough to steal the election in Ohio.

So excuse me if I don’t get that excited by Obama’s obvious debate victory.

A poll revealed on NPR indicated that some 6% of people would not vote for Obama under any circumstances but are too embarrassed to reveal this.

I’m not saying that many American voters would rather destroy our country than vote for a black man but we already have McCain and Palin willing to destroy our country in order to win an election.

troublesum,

The Republican Party nominated state-wide slates of candidates in 1854; they never tried to win the presidency under the banner of a single person…over and over again with the same person.

See, that’s the difference. They may have come onto the scene with a bang, but they made a bang by building a party. Nader doesn’t have a party; he’s just a guy who thinks he should be president…no different than me, except that i don’t want the job.

But what’s “propaganda” about taking control of local government first? Maybe i’m just not “top down” enough.

The so-called “debate” was yet one more con-job carried out by big media in collusion with big political machines. Obama can no more push through, much less pay for, his slightly different plans than can McCain, who’s become bonehead-in-chief, such that his ambition compared to that of Nixon renders Nixon’s not only not “blind” but wide-eyed.

Just one time I’d like to hear one or the other say straight out: “WE HAVE BECOME EMPIRE! And as such, certain sacrifices are necessary. It is extremely costly to maintain troops at bases around the world as we ‘effort’ the forcing of ‘democracy’ on unbelievers not kindred. WE ARE CORPORATE EMPIRE, a whole new kind of empire, which is less of government than of privatization-atomization, with an interest only in profits no matter human cost, which is to be regarded as subordinate to social organism (If this sounds like fascism?). On behalf of our ‘American Dream,’ which no matter how seemingly unreal, is still the embodiment of a necessary ideology by which to convince of the absolute necessity of domination by the tiny few over the vast many. We do indeed require an even more restrictive system of education-indoctrination, and so need to find some way to pay for that. As for healthcare being a human right, NONSENSE! Since no person—alone or in collusion with others—has any ‘right’ to interfere with the ‘rights’ of property. Provision of healthcare is—obviously—but another BUSINESS opportunity, damnit! Same as is providing of food, shelter and clothing. Everyone just simmer down, at the same time ya’ll stop—once and for all—whining of vagaries to do with things so absurd as ‘human rights,’ which are nowhere to be found, much less founded, in ‘natural law,’ according to Ed. Not ‘Mister Ed,’ but Ed Burke, every reactionary’s and libertarian’s fav.”

Were any to say something like this, I could at least respect his/her honesty. If America ever was founded on some kind of promise (unless Native or recently from Africa) of some damn thing or other, that deal got done by the time Robber Barons came down rails, right after which ‘promise’ became nothing more than the greatest opportunity by which to perpetrate a con on those to whom P.T. Barnum (America’s greatest philosopher) famously referred.

Political debates long ago became a sucker’s game. No one look to these people to have the slightest idea what to do about anything whatsoever. Most especially when what they have to do first and foremost is avoid saying anything that might alienate anyone.

If McCain happened to alienate more than did Obama last night, I’m highly skeptical as to meaning in the case of a beauty contest between toad(ies).

By scottk, October 8 at 1:06 pm #

St. Obama of Wall Street may have won but the American people lost.

~~~~~

Well scottk, I see the bitter envy is still hanging from the huge chip on your shoulder.
Just as a point of information, (that I’m sure you already know) Obama isn’t a Saint, (nobody much believes in saints anyway, unless you’re a hardcore Catholic or something) and he’s not connected to Wall Street anymore than you or anyone else is. Been to Walmart or K-Mart lately? Well, you’re more Wall Street than he is, because he won’t even go in a Wal-Mart.

Oh yeah, he COULD have joined the Wall Street crowd after leaving Harvard Summa Cum Laude. But, he didn’t. He went into public service. So, save your hate for a position or claim you can actually support, instead of joining in with the serial liars.

So, what did Barack ever do to you anyway Scottk?

Study American history.  What we don’t know about ourselves can be injurious to us.

It isn’t true that plitical parties must start out by first electing somebody to the school board.  That’s propaganda.  The republican party started out by electing somebody - Lincoln - to the presidency.

Jackpine:

Let’s not forget that Sarah Palin sleeps with a traitor every night.  Her husband is secessionist, a follower of a terrorist who got himself murdered when a deal to by PLASTIC EXPLOSIVE went sour!  Joe Vogler HATED the US, cursed it and wanted to create a separate nation of Alaska.  That’s called High Treason.  She made videos for his group.  She’s a traitor, too.

Meanwhile, our nation is going through its biggest financial crisis since the Crash of 1929.  It’s all due to the deregulation of banking…and THAT all began back in the 80’s when Charles Keating was bribing Congressmen and Senators to help the deregulation, including John McCain.

And let’s not forget that a good, famous Republican, Walter Annenberg, sat on that very same board with both Obama and Ayers.  So these charges are nonsense.  Or would you say that Walter Annenberg was a terrorist, too?

Linda S.,

So you’d like to judge a politician by the company he keeps? Ok, that’s fine, but answer a few questions for us.

What does it say about G.W. Bush that he holds hands with Saudi royalty and has dined at the bin Laden household? What about Dick Cheney cavorting with the Taliban and the Iranians? McCain’s buddy Charles Keating?

I obviously don’t expect a serious answer from you, because my guess is that you’re paid by the post and haven’t actually thought your own logic through to it’s conclusion…or the way in which it might be used against you.

And your VP nominee quotes fascists on the stump.

Look, any thinking American knows full well that neither of the two major parties give a rat’s ass about us when push comes to shove. Unfortunately, that’s besides the point right now. Trying to get a third party elected to the presidency without much of anything in between is a fool’s errand.

We start with the city council; we move to the state legislature; we elect third party Congressional representatives; maybe we get a Senator or two…only then do you try for the brass ring.

So do whatever makes you feel better about yourself and dispense your civic responsibility in the most painless fashion if that’s what it takes. But until we all start giving a fuck between presidential cycles and actually do something, quit telling me that i should vote for Nader because its the only “right” thing to do…or because Obama is a sell out. Christ, at least start by telling me something i don’t already know.

Troublesome

My fellow prisoner, could have significances, McCain has been told like the other folks in Congress they need to post a Bailout or their will be marshal law, that supposedly coming from the Whitehouse.

We could be called prisoners in the sense as Tao Waller stated, one of my favorites:  “We are all Indians now”.

Could be a Freudian slip?

Is this just a matter of misspeaking or a sign of something worse: http://www.jedreport.com/2008/10/mccain-loses-it-calls-american.html

dihey
The nazis had studied Edward Bernays who is credited with developing modern methods of propaganda.

Everybody knows by now Senator Obama’s failings to oppose the corporate driven order. But consider this: if you vote for John McCain, you are in fact voting for Sarah Palin, the most stupidly vicious entity to be hoisted on a national stage. I am saying to vote for Obama is the only way to prevent this monstrosity from taking place. And consider this, the Governor of Alaska claims her office provides the needed “experience” to be ready for national executive duty. Well, one only has to look at a recent Governor of Ohio, Bob Taft, to understand that a governor can be a corrupt and corrupting influence, inviting further calamity simply be being an inept fool. This is the Governor of Alaska in a nutshell. A woman praised for her acceptance speech in which she quoted American fascist Westbrook Pegler. Who also attended five colleges in six years to obtain her cheesy broadcast journalism degree. Think people, Michelle Obama is a million times more qualified to do the job… yea that is right, Senator Obama’s rock. A woman with a Juris Doctor degree from Harvard Law. And yet people can embrace the idiotic woman from Alaska, because she is stupid and uninterested, just like them.
No one has been more critical of the Illinois Senator than myself, but I implore you, do not let John McCain/Sarah Palin become president. Both parties seem certain to be on the same corporate page, but the Democrats do have something going for them: its called intelligence.

scottk,

Noticed the mass media has not picked up on it, for they may have been told what not to say.  As you say it could be propaganda for anyone who would gain by promoting it, including the Dems.

Meanwhile we play the kazoo while Rome burns. Our Constitution has been raped and the people who are supposed to uphold and enforce its guidelines have not done their job, hope the payoffs were worth it.

Integrity may happen someday in politics, but sadly not in my life time. Same for peace.

Troublesum

“Modern Propaganda” is not an American invention. Every student of the issue will tell you that the “inventor” was Adolf Hitler, an Austro-German. He was, for just one example, the first who stated:“if you repeat a lie often enough most people will start believing it.” Just another example. He ordered that the front page of the Nazi daily be plastered onto the public advertising towers. Critics in his own party said: “people will not stop to read the whole page of a newspaper. They want short slogans.” They were wrong. Huge crowds thronged the towers and waited patiently for their turn to get up front and read. Incidentally, he was also the first politician ever who used an airplane during election campaigns.

Fenwick’s comment that the American ruling elites’ propaganda machine was the envy of the Soviet communists was interesting.  Modern propaganda methods are after all an American invention.  After 70 years of police state government, Soviet citizens could still think.  The Soviets relied on the old fashioned elements of brute force and terror to control the people which automaticly sets in play a force of resistence.  In the west brute force is only hinted at, it is not used overtly.  There is no need for it and therefore there is no resistence.  People are told what to think by the all pervasive main stream media most especially tv and movies and they eventually cannot think beyond what they are given.  Here’s these two guys we approve of; vote for one of them and be part of the democratic process.  Those other people have egos.  Don’t even think about them.

scottk,

You know congress has seemed so gutless, and now we may know why.  I thought something had been held over their heads for a long time now, Check out the Alternet post below, if the article is true, the implications are more profound than your petty tiff with Obama!

FYI Folks,

This was referred to by the mob as the “protection racket”. Link below

http://www.alternet.org/story/101958/

George Bush struck down Posse Comitatus, thus making it legal for military to patrol the U.S. He has also legally established that in the “War on Terror,” the U.S. is at war around the globe and thus the whole world is a battlefield. Thus the U.S. is also a battlefield.

Congressman Brad Sherman (D-CA) has stated that several House members were told that martial law could be imposed if the House failed to pass the Wall Street bailout last Friday…under NSPD-51 and HSPD-20, the president has the authority to declare martial law in case of an “economic catastrophe”.  The troops are at Bush’s disposal.

Linda S,

Since, I have responded to your posts on several occasions. 

I say very clearly, I do not know you.

According to your logic, it is a fact that I Leefeller LIED about our relationship of several occasions, because I have something to hide? Your logic is flawed, actually non existent.

FENWICK,

Your ice cream analogy seems a little bit sticky.

Tony Witcher

Depends on what you mean by progressive? I agree he seemed to have won the debate.  Compared to someone like Kucinich I just do not see Obama as progressive.

I suggest progressives do not say they will follow someone to the gates of hell, nor would they say they would hunt them down and kill them, unless they are going after wolves in an airplane?

Whichever undertaker embalmed Mccain’s body for the debate last night did a poor job.

He is so hateful, as is his running mate. Frank Zappa characterized Republicans as “micropublicans raised on hate.”
How right he was.

By FENWICK, October 8 at 10:06 am #

I am for Nader.  I could feel his ghost at the debate.  Nader said if Gumby (my term) kept his campaign honest to his base, the campaign would be a runaway now. 
They have forced these two flavors of poorly made ice cream on us.  Rocky Road and Imitation Vanilla with sprinkles.  More voices more choices:  McKinney, Barr, Nader, the Constiturion Candidate, Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee.
John Pilger said that the Russian journalists who toured the US with Krushchev were amazed at the end of the trip at how uniform the political views of the American people were.  The Communist Party had been trying to achieve that for years, and we had it. No one thinks they just accept.
——————————————————————————-
FENWICK,

Really. Well, I think Obama won the debate by a mile. I think he is leading a broad progressive movement of Americans disgusted with the last eight years of war and economic ruin. The movement will succeed because the historical time is right. History is forcing socialism and internationalism on the capitalist system.

Obama HAS been faithful to his base. Those saying he has not are left-wing critics who have never been part of his base. At this point, the campaign IS turning into a runaway. The only thing left is for Nader, McKinney and their followers to come on board. Welcome aboard! We love you guys!

No one won the debates. The American people lost big time and as usual, didn’t even realize it. There was no third party candidate allowed in the debates. Only the left side of the approved regime and the right side of the approved regime were allowed to speak. The Democrats who have been screwing the American people with uncharacteristic chutzpah lately trotted out their man to not say anything. The Republicans who don’t even hide their intentions to screw the American public over trotted out their man to say nothing. Nothing was said. What a great debate. Go rent “an unreasonable man” or get it from your library for free. It may help us all realize what we are missing in these debates.

Must admit I do not understand the underhanded way everything about the way the Iran Contra thing went down, just heard some of McCains finger prints were on it. Why has it not been brought to our attention more? 

My take is the overall business as usual and agenda of the powers that be,  still utilize these same kind of subversive techniques, so no one likes to talk about it as they prefer to call it national interest.

I’m not sure what you mean by “the Iran Contra thing” coming out.

McCain did look sick and old. Maybe he’ll keel over before the election. That would be interesting.

On Israel/Palestine, here is the take of one of my favorite Jewish sources, Muzzlewatch, on the debate. It’s got many other good links in the article:

http://www.muzzlewatch.com/

I was very unsure whether I would vote for the Obama/Biden ticket because of its (still) horrendous positions on Israel/Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan. Governor Palin has managed to change my vote. This racist student of two Joe’s, Goebbels and McCarthy, must not come even close to the White House. To paraphrase a famous statement: “Senator McCain, has your campaign no decency?” Obviously not. Therefore, every decent American who cannot vote for Obama must stay at home. Every decent American planning to vote for a third party candidate as I had planned must respond to this fascist threat and change to Obama as I will do. Let the indecent ones crawl out of their caves to vote. We will defeat them! After that Senator McCain should be shunned by his Senate colleagues like the piece of dirt he is by allowing his running mate to resurrect Adolf Hitler.

Tony Witcher,

My concerns also. Is it possible the Iran Contra thing will not come out, because the same kind of agenda may be supported by Obama?

McCain did not look well, he needs to stop table dancing with Sarah.

I think this debate really worked as a fair side-by-side comparison between the two candidates. Obama won by a mile.

On Afghanistan, in common with a lot of posters here I am worried about Obama’s stated Afghanistan policy. “Kill bin Laden and crush Al Qaeda” are laudible goals, but they can’t be accomplished militarily. The military approach will only bog us down in Afghanistan forever which is bin Laden’s stated objective. Al Qaeda must be isolated politically. The process has to involve talks between the Taliban, NATO and Karzai government. It looks like Gen. Petraeus is there trying apply his Iraq strategy by buying off tribesmen to fight the Taliban, but that strategy will not work in Afghanistan, because the Taliban are legitimate representatives of the Pashtun. I hope Obama understands this and is just talking tough during the election. Here is a very informative link on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7ih_E6O98&eurl=http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=2455

According to counterpunch.com MCain got some bad news from doctors last month.  This may explain some of his weird behavior for the last few weeks.  There needs to be some accountability on that issue.  People have a right to know what the state of his health is.

Don’t know about you, but I think McCain should take the flag pole out of his ass, he walked like a fringing totem pole all night.

What did each guy need to do?
Obama: Look “Presidential” and not step on his you-know-what. Because he’s got a big lead, his bar is set fairly low.

McCain: Nail a game-changer, a grand-slam.  Beyond that he needed to look sane, competent, fatherly and “Presidential”.  Because he’s behind and slipping, the bar for him was set high.

McCain DID have a dramatic housing proposal…But it sounds a lot like Dennis Kucinich’s just not as good or as well thought out (Did I actually defend a DK proposal?  Sure did!).  But McCain hadn’t even told his advisers about it—Mitt Romney was caught flat-footed. 

McCain also made so many government intervention proposals he sounded like, like,....well, like a Democrat! (so I don’t believe him).

But did he have the game changer? Did he make Obama look bad or lose stature? No. Will he change the minds of the uncommitted? I doubt it. I think McCain was very wise to ignore Sarah’s Palinsanity and not attack Obama on the past—he knows Keating is just WAITING to slam him!  So did McCain achieve what he needed to achieve in this debate, that was in his favorite format? No, definitely not.

Therefore the debate win goes clearly to Obama.

And Brokaw really stunk the joint up.  He was not nearly as capable or compelling as Jim Lehrer or Gwen Ifill.

Although neither candidate stood out in my mind as a clear “winner” in the debate, I have to give small props to McCain for finally outlining some specifics of his action plan. However, and this is a huge point that I think the Obama campaign needs to focus on, he has never told us how he intends to pay for anything. An across the board “freeze” on spending is simply absurd. No president could or would ever do such a ridiculous thing. Besides, as I understand it, his so-called “freeze” simply means we don’t increase spending. It doesn’t mean cutting back or even restructuring to make programs less expensive.

If we continue to spend more than we make, this proposed “freeze” (particularily with a downward spiraling economy) would do zero to get us back on track. Most of us realize that one cannot continue to live on credit forever. Eventually, you are faced with one of two options; pay it back or declare bankruptcy.

This seems to be the republican pattern. They spend everything and let the national debt grow out of control. Then the Dems get in and have no choice but to raise taxes to pay for it, thus legitimizing the claim that Dems raise taxes! It really is quite a brilliant (albiet evil) strategy: make the mess then let someone else clean it up and ctiticize them for their methods.

Another small but important detail in the debate for which McCain gets a nod was when they each spoke about alternative energy. John was the only one that mentioned hydrogen. Twice in the past few weeks, the McCain camp has included hydrogen in their list and Obama has not.

On national security, both candidates tied in energy as one of the most important factors. If this is the case, as I believe it to be, is there a more clear use of emminent domain? How is it that big oil companies have the power to dictate how, when and for how much our countries natural resources are utilized? I’m not one for nationalization of the banking industry, but in the case of the natural resources that literally power our entire nation, enough is enough. Something drastic must be done to safeguard our country from the maggots who rape us for record profits by selling us what we the people should own in the first place!

No…neither specifically answered the write in question concerning SS & medicare. They dodged it by resoting to stump talk—as they did most of the night. Obama slightly less so in my opinion. It was actually the toughest question all night. I believe it was something along the lines of, Dude! WTF are we gonna do about it when the money runs out?!

Answer: Punt

I agree with the poster who mentioned the War talk—it has to stop. Nineteen men with box cutters effed us royally and all the $ toward fighting them in the conventional sense is money wasted.

For Barry to have a successful presidency he will have to buy a cigarette holder, some round nerdy glasses, and borrow a wheelchair. However, I don’t think that even FDR could effectivly deal with this situation. After all, FDR didn’t inherit a national debt of ten trillion dollars(and growing)

Dylan not withstanding, I think an old Warren Zevon tune might more approprietly describe the mess we’re in.
“I was in the house when the house burnt down.”

Beerdoctor,

Yes, the hawk mentality is uncomfortable to me, so this makes me dovish?  Obama is willing to talk to Iran, a far site better then the Busch,/Mcain/Palin mental midget programs.  Carry a big stick, Bomb, Bomb, McCain got it shoved up his ass and lodged right next to the flag pole, McCain walks like it anyway. 

Russia, I would talk to them and see if we could become less confrontational,not looking like this is going to happen, must have to do with oil.

My fuzzy brain had trouble understanding what either one of them mentioned about social security and medicare, Boyrsky did not touch on it either. Anyone, what was stated by either?

Yes, Bob Dylan, right on.

Big Wes, you get to the heart of the matter. The economic meltdown, despite the Republicans harping about Fred and Fan, is truly a bipartisan screw up, generated by the greed of the architects of the so-called new economy. A few true Democrats recognize this, and so do a few true Republicans. But neither of these minorities within the corporate driven parties can do a damn thing about it.
So if the “debate” seemed rather lame, that’s because it was.

OBAMA ACTUALLY ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS HE WAS ASKED….ALL mcshame DID WAS POINT FINGER…mcshame NEVER STATED “what his solution to problems would be”-I WAS IMPRESSED WITH OBAMAS SOLUTION TO AMERICAS SITUATION.I think he CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE…...I WILL GIVE HIM THE CHANCE!!!

Purple Girl brings up an important point. John McCain in his zeal to become president has aroused the most stupidly vicious element of the Republican party.
http://www.alternet.org/election08/101903/

When Mac was discussing Military intervention- he rattled off a number of Groups America has Helped over the years…One being the Afghani ‘Freedom Fighters’ who were fighting the USSR…And Who Was One of these ‘freedom fighers’ whos reputation and influence Grew because Americans Helped ‘defeat’ the Invading USSR????  Bin Laden!!!!!Has it not just been revealed that a Group John MCcain was a member of supplied EVEN BOOTS to these Precusors To AQ???
So Now It’s time to ask Sarah who was affiliated with a group who helped Build Up not only the Resources but the ‘Glory Stories’ for the 9/11 Leaders.
Whos the most notorious Terrorist Ayers or Bin Laden.I think the MCcain campaign may want to drop the Ayers angle
Besides Sarah and her Religious extremeist are easily affiliated theologically with those who bombed Planned Parenthood Clinic, the Atlanta Olympics and assasinated Reproductive Doctors. So Sarah You Want to talk About Domestic Terrorists? Let’s talk about Your Sociopathic ‘ProLife’ Movement. Or how about another rag tag group who shared your ‘hate the US’ sentiment who blew up the Federal Building.Seems your Successionist in Alaska are in Principle very akin to the Michigan Militia. Your ‘leader’ appears to be inlock step ideologically with McVey!
Difference between Sen Obama’s association with Ayers and Mac’s with this Anit Communinist Group and Your Seperatist sympathies is that Obama was 8 and Was NOT a Memeber of the Weather Undergroud. You and Mac were both Adults and Full Fledged Memebers of these Terrorist Groups!!!
Oh And Mac WE’RE NOT YOUR FRIEND (we would never be affilitated with those you’ve surrounded (buried) yourself with the last 3 decades) ..WE’RE YOUR BOSS (cute Won’t save Your Ass)..SO STOP WINKING AT US!!!

Confrontation? Hardly. Tougher on foreign affairs? What does he mean by that? Expanding the hell fire known as Afghanistan? And what was that sing-song about Iran and nuclear weapons? The pro-Zionist shuffle from both of these candidates, indicates clearly that militarism stands perfectly in place. No option is off the table eh?
Don’t worry rabid Obamakins, I will vote for Barry. For personal, somewhat petty reasons, and also the idea of a President Moose is simply beyond the pale. But I am not so naive as to think that this “more presidential looking” dude” will actually solve very much. Perhaps some one will realize that Barack is not beholden to you who threw him your money, but the same crowd of creeps that have been advising him all along. Madeline Albright anyone? Robert Rubin? Lawrence Summers? Wesley Clarke?...
“Time will tell just who has failed and who has been left behind,”
Bob Dylan