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Posted on Oct 7, 2008
Bush at the White House
AP photo / Pablo Martinez Monsivais

President George W. Bush walks onto the South Lawn of the White House in this photo taken in July 2006.

By Robert Scheer

I am not a conventionally religious man, or even a very superstitious one, but I do wish George Bush would stop asking God to bless America. Every time he does, we seem to be visited with another plague, suggesting divine wrath over our president’s evil ways. How else to explain the persistent calamity that has marked this administration: a pointless but very costly war over nonexistent Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the devastating New Orleans flood, the betrayal of the nation by the money-changers—from Enron to Goldman Sachs—that Bush welcomed into the temple of the White House?

What’s next? Pestilence, frogs, locusts or incurable boils? Dare we risk four more years of catastrophic misrule by a “W” alter ego? For those indifferent to the serious implications of that question, I recommend Oliver Stone’s new bio-flick, which brilliantly captures the “banality of evil” that has controlled our political life these past eight years. This phrase from Hannah Arendt’s characterization of the mundane cruelty that so marked the daily experience of European fascism has a frightening applicability to the Republican leadership that has done so much damage to this nation’s reputation for democratic integrity.

Cynicism rules even as ritualistic prayer breaks, as depicted in the film “W,” abound. The pretense of piety earns the president and his accomplices a get-out-of-jail-free card; at no point in the film do any in the top ranks of this administration—captured so accurately and depressingly—accept one iota of accountability for how much damage they have wrought. Unrepentant, the same Republican apparatchiks are employing the familiar Rovian tactic of divide and conquer in seeking to continue their hold on power. Once again, they seek to focus attention on hot-button social issues and patriotic litmus tests to draw attention from the fact that family values are being destroyed by the loss of job and home. 

Perhaps John McCain is not a perfect replica of George W. Bush, but the parallels go beyond the senator’s enthusiastic support for the toxic mix of Bush’s imperial foreign policy and his arrogant indifference to the travails of our domestic existence. Neither man seems to have any sense of how we actually live or what we need from government. How else to explain their common antipathy to Social Security and Medicare, which, after public education, represent the nation’s most successful programs? Can you imagine the panic today if McCain and Bush had succeeded in tying Social Security to investments in the stock market? They view government as nothing more than a proud sponsor of the military-industrial complex while ignoring the threat to homeland security from corporate pirates.

Don’t say we weren’t warned. Bush came into office believing fervently that what was good for Enron and its CEO, Kenneth “Kenny Boy” Lay, Bush’s top financial sponsor, was good for the country. So, too, McCain, who chose Phil Gramm as co-chair of his presidential campaign, ignoring the huge loophole in Gramm’s Commodity Futures Trading Act, which allowed Enron, where his wife, Wendy Gramm, was on the board of directors, to so shamelessly game the energy market.

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Trumpeting the benefits of the legislation he tacked onto an omnibus spending bill the day before the 2000 Christmas recess, then-Sen. Gramm stated: “It protects financial institutions from over-regulation. It provides legal certainty for the $60 billion market in swaps.” Those swaps created the toxic investments that U.S. taxpayers are now stuck with as the nation struggles to save those unregulated financial institutions from bankruptcy.

McCain, who should have learned the cost of radical deregulation from his own involvement in the savings and loan scandal as one of the infamous “Keating Five,” totally bought Gramm’s line. McCain was the chair of Gramm’s 1996 presidential bid and up until major Wall Street firms collapsed continued to echo the insistence of the former-Texas-senator-turned-banker that there was no real crisis in the financial markets.

McCain evidences the underlying motivator attributed to Bush in Stone’s movie: the distorted priorities of a son of privilege doing battle with the legacy of more gifted and responsible family ancestors. Both grew up as spoiled screw-ups repeatedly bailed out of trouble by their highly accomplished fathers, in McCain’s case an admiral, and both assume, as a matter of legacy, that they have a right to rule. What they ignored in their legacy was a Christian’s obligation to make the economic system that handsomely rewarded their kin at least minimally responsive to the needs of ordinary folk. 

Robert Scheer is the editor in chief of Truthdig and author of a new book, “The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America.”

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 27, 2008 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

My words construed as words of wisdom, by others, especially coming from Sodium and She, is very humbling. Humility can be helpful, but sometimes can be used as excuses for not taking the next step.  This may be were I find myself in many facets of my life. Aside from being a “bonyfied procrastinator”. 

Please accept my appreciable feelings toward both of your complements, no; thank you.  It was good timing, for I was beginning to feel the need to drop out from Truth Digging posts, must say the political race has become a mind embalming injection in some strange degree, encompassing our minds and our lives. Like any addict, cold turkey is a weak persons substitute for control, I would prefer to wean myself from the teat of political discourse slowly.  As I stated before, our discussion on wisdom was very refreshing, even found both sides of the Fenwick discourse interesting.

She and Sodium, I take your requests heavily and with respect and will post as “Sodium does” when time permits.

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By Sodium, October 27, 2008 at 12:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:To Shenonymous and Leefeller,October 26 at 12:02 am

CORRECTION:
============
An important word has been omitted by typing mistake from Step Five of the above Re.The omitted word is LEFTWARD.Please make the correction in Step Five to read as follows:

“Step Five:From C draw a horizontal straight line
LEFTWARD,in equal length to any of the line you have already drawn in Step Two or Step Three
or Step Four.”

Thank you.

I apologize for any inconvenience caused.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 26, 2008 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

Sodium and Leefeller – To try to express my view, I have always had the highest respect for Leefeller as well as you Sodium.  Leefeller has the unique ability to synthesize popular idioms with the profoundest wisdom of the ages and it always astonishes me how directly to the intellect it goes.  He displays an extraordinary high level of humor often combined with homilies that almost everybody has heard in other contexts before so he makes his points accessible at once.  I thank Leefeller again and ask him to please keep being so kind to bring that ring of truth, as the ancients once said, to us who are often at poverty’s door in our thinking.  This is a special kind of wisdom unusually found in our midst.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 26, 2008 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

Once again a lovely explanation that I can appreciate.  Seeing the value of metaphor is an art in itself and you have that skill, Sodium, nonpareil.  I recently made a study of the distinctions within the rubric of metaphor:  metaphor, analogy, simile, trope, allegory, etc., and for those who wish to be able to use these literary devices well, I suggest they do the same research.  I resist giving the website since I believe you ought to do your own search.  The information will stick better, as in mental taffy.  Now to intuit to which category mental taffy falls into is your challenge.

It is always fascinating to see how clever one can use a metaphor or trope to bring to mind difficult or obscure concepts.  Wisdom and truth are two of these elusive concepts and any sound and intentionally good help given toward insight is most welcome at least by me.

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By Sodium, October 26, 2008 at 4:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Shenonymous,October 22 at 2:46 am.

Shenonymous,

I do not know how and where you have succeeded in finding the marvelous words of Mr.Zimmermann.Another piece of literature I wish to print out and file to reread and enjoy once in a while.

You are really helpful.Thank you.

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By Sodium, October 26, 2008 at 4:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Shenonymous, October 23 at 7:30 am.

Shenonymous,

Thank you very much for the link “Metaphore in Text Semantics” by Staffan Carlshamer.Extremely interesting.

As soon as possible,I intend to go to one of the local libraries I usually visit now and then and get a print out for the whole article and file for reference.I have NO printer in my home.I have never felt I needed one.It looks like I have to start looking for buying one.

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By Sodium, October 26, 2008 at 4:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Leefeller,October 22 at 6:32 am

Leefeller,

You owe me NO apology,whatsoever.

It is just gracious of you to make the following comments from the deep corners of your heart.I could easily detect that you ment every word when you said:

“Sodium,

Your comments have made sense in the expansively dense empty space between me (my) ears.Using dimensions as layers in a model almost clears it for me in a (an) abstract way.

Thank you”

I do,in return,thank you for having such a splendid mind and self-respect for your self and others.

I do not know about Shenonymous how she feels.Based on reading her most interesting posts,I could tell
that she has a big heart and highly disciplined           mind,but at the same time she could be tough with those who tried to bully her in their lousy,loud,
arrogant and conceited discourses as they expressed them in their posts.I,for one,do NOT blame her.In fact I support her toughness…...Sometimes,one has to treat those kind of people by their own medicine of snake oil.

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By Sodium, October 26, 2008 at 2:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Leefeller October 21 at 6:31 pm.

“She,

Words of wisdom,expected if not anticipated,further thought suggests we should pursue this from the physics
angle,quite different from the 45 degree Fenwick was talking about earlier.They may turn out to be quite mind boggling and could even exceed expectations and capabilities of human intellect.”

Leefeller,

Although you have addressed your comments quoted above to She,I wish to respond if you do not mind.But
first allow me to compliment you for your clearly constructive thoughts that reflects openness of the mind and the extent of the horizon of your vision.
These are splendid qualities.Please never,never neglect or abandon them.They are the genuine strength
for those who have them.

The point I wanted to tell you is this:

In yesterday years of old,the people of intellect used to combine philosophy,physics,,religion,medicine
and astronomy as an integrated whole.

In fact,the initial purpose for establishing Liberal
Arts colleges in the U.S. has been to expose the students to a little of each subject the college offers such as sciences,languages,history,philosophy
etc…with relative concentration on one or two areas of interest.To my knowledge,this practice has not changed.

Bringing physics principles to achieve a better understanding of the relationships between wisdom and truth did not surprise me.The surprise stems from the fact that the idea came from some one else,that was you,not me.

A daring thought,indeed.Thank you,Leefeller…....

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By Sodium, October 26, 2008 at 1:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To:Shenonymous and Leefeller.

Subject:An Arbitrary Four Dimensional Model As An Expression For Complex System Of Relationships.

Please recall with me that in my post of October 21 at 7:28 pm,I have mentioned how an organic chemistry professor builds a Model,from plastic materials,to show his students the structure of methane whose empirical formula is CH4.I wish to explore this further in order to prove once more that the x,y,z
Model as an expression for the relationship between
Wisdom and Truth is indeed plausible:

The Arbitrary Drawing of Methane’s Molecular Structure:
===============================================
Since I am an illiterate in computer manipulations,I
find myself unable to provide you with the necessary drawing to see for yourself the whole picture as it is visualize by scholars and in organic textbooks every where in the globe,I have to ask you to do the following easy steps:

Step One:Please write the alphabet letter C in capital form in the middle of a piece of paper.

Step Two:From C Draw a vertical straight line UPWARD
and write the alphabet letter H at the end of the line

Step Three:From C draw a vertical straight line DOWNWARD and equal in length to the one you have just drawn in Step Two and write the alphabet letter H in
capital form at the end of the line you have just drawn DOWNWARD. 

Step Four: From C draw a horizontal line RIGHTWARD and equal in length to the one you have already drawn in Step Three or Step Two and write at the end of line the alphabet letter H in capital form

Step Five: From C draw a horizontal line equal in length to any of the lines you have already drawn in
Step Two or Step Three or Step Four and write at the
end of the line the alphabet letter H in capital form.

You have just finished drawing an arbitrary molecular
structure for methane(CH4),in which C represents the central carbon atome with a valence of 4 and each H
represents the hydrogen atom and there are four of them and each one of them has a valence of 1.

One may conclude from the forgoing the following set of facts:
-It is arbitrary.
-It is four dimensional.
-It is a Model expressing a complex bonding between the central carbon atom and the four hydrogen atoms
-The complexity of the bonding involved is expressed
by the word"valence” which has its own rules for every elements in the Periodic Table of Elements.
-In spite of being arbitrary,it is a Model expressing
the relationships between the central carbon atom and the four hydrogen atoms for an organic compound called methane whose empirical formula is CH4 as attested and confirmed by instrumental analysis.

The Questions That Must Be Raised For Objectivity:
====================================================
-Does the Model,the molecular structure,you have drawn represent the actual shape of methane molecule?     
The answer is a BIG NO.The shape of the methane is a
TETRAHEDRON.
-Why then proposing such an arbitrary Model as a molecular structure for methane when it does not even come close to the actual shape of methane? The answer has to do with the art of teaching.That is to say that complex systems can arbitrarily be presented in Models wherever and whenever possible and all that depends upon one’s imaginations and daring.If it can be done for Methane,why not for the abstracts like wisdom and truth?

Conclusions:
============
-Models are no more than expressions which may help us understand the complex systems that exist in the natural world and the abstract one as well.
-Some complex systems are impossible to understand
without using Models.The bondings between the central carbon atom the four hydrogen atoms in the methane molecule is one of them.so is the relationship between wisdom and truth.
-Models are the keys for human progress and new ideas
based on splendid imaginations….......

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 24, 2008 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Ho hum again, FENWICK.  When I once said you were a mean man, I neglected to notice how picayune you were.  I don’t mind admitting mistakes.  I did make a mistake using “cursive” rather than the word truncate.  I was very rushed this morning but no matter. I don’t ever mind being corrected.  It’s part of life and being human.  And you are sooooo right about more and over. Again, human error.  Moreover, I can be a real shithead sometimes.  But you are a turd too.  FENWICK says: Your x,y,z, model could just as well by did you mean “be a” three card monty or the three shell and a pea game. Thus, You have demonstrated there is truth in folly. Seems the picky picky FENWICK Jamacamistakes too.  So sollie, chum.  I also admit to being horrid, I find I am not horrid enough sometimes.  Oh well, I’ll find other times to make up for it.  And I am just as bad as I can be. 

I deem that you are not worthy of any further explanations about wisdom, or trooth, as you are unable to fathom objective models for subjective states of mind nor are you deserving of any further comments from me.  But if you have to respond do please refer to me henceforth as Your Highness (oh, and anything else you might find joyfully disrespectful).

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 23, 2008 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Ho hum… yawn
It is unfortunate you are not up to the level of sparring I thought you were FENWICK.  Your verbal offense is sophomoric at best and reminds me of a sandbox retort, one without any essential meaning or import.  If you could further the discussion rather than take a tantrum of a petulant child, it might be worthwhile to continue seeking a better definition for wisdom and truth.  All you offer, however, is a pathetic generic 8th grade algebra book, a physics book, and a dictionary without any specific reference from any of them.  If you are going to argue well, please be prepared to provide at least the appearance you know what the f*ck you are talking about.  Try not to show how lazy you are in your thinking.  It makes me think my comparison of you to my favorite and precocious nephew was premature.  The blathering adolescent you are speaking with here does in fact have advanced degrees including philosophy and logic and was a university professor for over a decade. 

In an effort to clarify how the model works, we will offer one last time some elucidation on what has become a kind of de facto collaboration between Sodium and Shenonymous for a what was intended as a pleasant visual model of an explanation of wisdom and truth.  I suppose if we were to ask what the shape of wisdom or truth were, we would have to deal with a geometric model.  But for the question at hand, I am directing you to the field of study known as subjective logic.

Subjective logic is relevant when the problem to be analyzed can be characterized by a large degree of uncertainty and incomplete knowledge.  Wisdom falls in this category.  In this way, subjective logic becomes a probabilistic logic for uncertain probabilities. The advantage is that uncertainty is carried through the analysis and is made explicit in the results so that it is possible to distinguish between certain and uncertain conclusions.  Wisdom is one of those subjective cognitive abilities that is often measured by standardized intelligence tests, it is an attribute that might be able to be improved with experience, but is not teachable since the idiosyncratic ability of insight is involved.  Within subjective logic, the x, y, z model is often used for a probabilistic graphical model, Sodium’s model, it can also be described as a Bayesian network to represent the intersection of what wisdom is and an example of what it is as an incidence of truth.  If this explanation is beyond your comprehension, I can only suggest that you familiarize yourself with subjective logic and Bayesian networking.

I also suggest you catch the next tornado to OZ to see about getting a brain.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 23, 2008 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

FENWICK – Thinking in the abstract can be elusive.  Models are just that, abstractions, not one-to-one ratios of reality. They just provide a structure on which one may think to extrapolate perhaps a way to understand complex or perplexing notions.  In this case, the model is functioning as a simile not an exact representation of a concretion of wisdom on the x axis, the example of wisdom on a y axis, and a resulting truth on a z axis.  It was merely a slight indication of how to see a path from wisdom to truth.  To make it more than what it is obviously is an attempt at over-sophistication, at which you succeed.  And an apparent attempt at aggressive swaggering.  It is really unbecoming.  To make a distinction between metaphor, analogy, simile, and allegory, I refer you to the interesting essay http://www.philosophy.su.se/personal/staffanstexter/metaphors.htm

Sodium, and we can presume Sodium is a mature male, gave a simple model of how to think about a subjective idea in an objective way.  The measure of how effective the model was is the degree to which it got you to think, which might have been a painful thing to do beyond simple decision-making, like hmmmm, do I want a Heineken or a Bud. hmmmmm? Gee, they say Bud makes you wiser.  hmmmmm.  Do I need to be more of a wiseass than I already am?  hmmmmm

As a representative, z, whatever is the result, is a description, rather, that is, it is just a representation of Truth.  But let’s do take the capital T off of Truth and make it a truth with a lower case truth since THE TRUTH would be the ideal to which all truths attempt to conform and to which the definition most closely resembles but which defies any perfect attainment, for if it does, please don’t hog the example.  I suppose you could take the Wisdom test.  But be careful not to believe whatever your score turns out to be is a measure of THE TRUTH about yourself.  Seems to me that the only one running in place is FENWICK.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 22, 2008 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Why we wouldn’t think anything was rotten (bad) about you FENWICK, not your meaning, not anything, not at all, particularly since the lead between your ears is a better natural weight to drop you off the Brooklyn Bridge than the cement blocks my Uncle Rocco would use around your ankles.  I don’t mean that in a bad way either.  I meant it in a metaphysical way.

Oh and yup, Robert did appropriate Dylan Thomas’s name when he was thinking about who was going to ring his doorbell, then after that he changed his name to Bob.  There’s nothing whacky ‘bout that.  And who said infinite regresses are a bad thing, like a joke within a joke within a joke within a joke within a joke within a joke within a joke….. But then some abstract discussion might be fruitful if you fell plumb in the middle of one.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 22, 2008 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

Sodium,

You comments have made sense in the expansively dense empty space between me ears. Using dimensions as layers in a model almost clears it up for me in a abstract way. 

Thank You,

She and Sodium, since I have a tendency to employ levity when others are being serious, my intention is not to be mean spirited.  My apologies if I offended either of you, sometimes I over do it? 

If I had been on the Titanc, I would have been thrown off the ship by the captain for saying “Fine mess you got us into Ollie” after he ran into the iceberg.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 22, 2008 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

The first thing that came to mind upon reading Fenwick’s comment about wisdom filling all space and what it could mean was the space between the ears which for many is usually empty or gets filled with hot smelly air.  Ergo, my tiny poem.  Now filling that habitually empty space with any substantial thought, if thought indeed could be substantial, since the word substantial implies substance and the word substance means something that has mass and occupies space, in other words, is filled with matter, one who only has hot smelly air between his ears may commence to pursue exchanging that hot smelly air with something that matters, and that could be an instance of three-dimensional wisdom.

And in the words of that wise Mr. Zimmerman, Times they are a-changin. 

Come gather round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
Youll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin
Then you better start swimmin
Or youll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance wont come again
And dont speak too soon
For the wheels still in spin
And theres no tellin who
That its namin.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Dont stand in the doorway
Dont block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled (which could very well mean a bathroom stall)
Theres a battle outside
And it is ragin.
It’ll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And dont criticize
What you cant understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin.
Please get out of the new one
If you cant lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin.

Please heed the call.
Vote Obama/Biden.

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By Sodium, October 21, 2008 at 8:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:Building Models for better omprehensions,,,,,

Quoting Bob Dylan,(his real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman),who is basically a singer is a poor way to
reject a position Shenonymous has taken wisely and with an opened mind towards a novel attempt to comprehend wisdom and its closeness to the “TRUTH”.If anyone wishes to blindly criticize anything related to the three dimensional Model as an expression for better comprehension of wisdom as related to the “TRUTH” should direct his criticism towards me,NOT to her,since I was the original “instigator” for the
novelty of the Model.And I will NOT respond because I usually do not have the time.I do respond only if my
time and health cicumstances permit to do so.I usually check my computer twice a week.

Every cultute in the planet has its own set of wisdoms.That fact alone has contributed greatly to the difficulty associated with its closeness to,what humanity called,the “TRUTH”.The three dimensional x,y,z graph proposed was ONLY a Model,subject to rejection,acceptance or correction.

There is nothing wrong in rejecting it,providing the
rejection is done in an affable and constructive manner and the rejector provides an alternative.To
reject just for the sake of rejection/ridiculing and at the top of that be mean-spirited about it,reflects negatively firstly and lastly on the rejector,as far as I am concerned.

The comment"If it is any help to you think of wisdom as filling all space” firstly raises the question what exactly the commenter means by “filling all space” and secondly,if the commenter means all space of the whole universe or the space of the his living
room or the restroom where the “inspiring” reading and subsequent rejection were accomplished,there are plenty of answers to that:

(1)Architects,these days,“draw their creative multi-dimensional Models in multi-colored,on the computer,then they transform them into Mini-Models
before they finally build the actual big one on a
“space” of ground.Do their Models fill all space? Of course,not.

(2)The engineers at General Motors “draw” their multi-dimensional Models for the new cars to be produced before they actually build the real ones.Do their multi-dimensional Models occupy all the space? Of course not.

(3)NASA fascinating technologies for the exploration of Mars builds multi-dimensional Models here on planet Earth and try them here-perhaps in Arizona or New Mexico-before shooting them to Mars for explorations.Do their multi-dimensional Models fill all the space? Of course,not.

(4)An organic chemistry professor builds from plastic materials a four-dimensional Model of the molecule of
methane(CH4) to show his sophomore students how the
four hydrogen atoms are bonded to the central carbon atom to form the molecule of methane.In doing so,did the good professor fill all the space with his Model?
Of course,not.

Models can only help us to a degree.That degree is
developing a comprehension of the realm of possibilities of the problems we fail to understand
and appreciate.Nothing more and nothing less.

Shenonymous:The more I read your precise and eloquent
posts,the more I hold you in high esteem.You are one of the few whose posts are worth reading.I always learn something from your posts.Thank you.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, October 21, 2008 at 7:31 pm Link to this comment

She,

Words of wisdom, expected if not anticipated; further thought suggests,  we should pursue this from the Physic angle, quite different from the 45 degree angle Fenwick was talking about earlier. This may turn out to be quite mind boggling and could even exceed expectations and capabilities of human intellect.

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 21, 2008 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

Seems like, Bob Dylan, doancha agree,
to see which way the wind blows,
a fart would do the trick,
everybody knows. 

Never really thought about it before, but how many dimensions is a fart?

Now you all expected that, didn’t you?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 20, 2008 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Since it seems to be insufficiently valuable to be worth your time, effort, or interest (has issues), that is, it is worthless, just dump the word wisdom.  It could be a real f*cking albatross and probably wouldn’t affect you significantly anyway.  It is kind of an old fashioned word with hardly any contemporary utility, like the words ‘morals’ or ‘authenticity.’

It’s so simple to be wise.  Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.

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By Leefeller, October 20, 2008 at 11:39 am Link to this comment

Fenwick,

I love writing in small print, but it was not I. Many years ago I met a fellow named, Rest Stop John,  he is sort of like the Johnnie Apple seed of rest rooms all around the nation, he wanders around sowing his words of wisdom in rest rooms.  Actually he is more popular than Joe the Plumber.  Occasionally they let him into the Whitehouse to use the restrooms, it seems Bush acquires many of his brainstorms after leaving the restroom.  I never stated Rest Stop John was the brightest light in the room.  Since Rest Stop John does not own a computer nor have access to the web,  he uses rest stop walls to express himself, as we do here on TD, without the interaction.  I have seen his work everywhere even in Canada.  Wonder if their is a Mrs. John?

She,

Thanks for the grammar updates, for some reason, I take issue with the word wisdom being a noun?

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By Shenonymous, October 19, 2008 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

A wise decision, Leefeller.  But if we may, we will take your pocket-sized essay on the words wise and wiser on a small adjectival pilgrimage so we are not left in the dark.  Seeing that this forum is gentler and less vicious than the other ones at the moment, I hope it is all right to play a little bit here because some levity needs to be injected in otherwise boiling Truthdig scenes elsewheres. 

In our language there is a grammatical form of an adjective or adverb which indicates the degree a person or thing has as a quality greater or lesser in magnitude than another and which is called the ‘comparative’ form; and when the adjectival modifier points to the highest or greatest measure, it is called the ‘superlative.’ 

Now the comparative of the word wise is wiser, and the superlative is wisest.  It is a well-known fact that some men are considered wise, (and just for the sake of brevity, we will leave women out of this altogether since everybody knows (including Leonard Cohen) that women’s wisdom is a function of the virtue known as prudence, which has an association with wisdom but is distinct in that it is concerned solely with knowledge, where wisdom is concerned with action; and that all virtue is regulated by prudence, such is the province of women who love to regulate everything), and most often these wise men are called wise guys, and by another name are known as wise asses.  Other men, in comparison with wise guys, are wiser guys, and by this comparative are more wise asses, or to commit the sin of redundancy, are… wiser asses.  Then we come to the wisest guys of all, the superlatively wisest asses, which as a wise acre I might add, you very quickly and sharply pointed out was George Bush and numerous other unspecified politicians. To bring up the subject of wise acre, however, would take this petite treatise to some other field of possibilities so we will wisely stop while we are ahead.  And my sympathies to anybody who runs out of coffee beans.

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By Leefeller, October 19, 2008 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

She,

Your Philosophers 101 mini course requires a response. 

“How many philosophers does it take to change a light-bulb”?

Must say the meaning of changing a light-bulb should not be taken lightly, but at this time, I will step back instead, and discuss and try to answer the question you asked, regarding my statement on the meaning of wisdom in connection of the two words “wise” and “wiser”.

Wise and wiser has qualifications relative to each other only as perceived or intended by the one doing the perceiving, for both happen to be an adjectives. Wise and wiser do not really have to be searching for the meaning of truth like wisdom.  Wise can be used to suggest a person as “none the wiser”.  Meaning not knowing more than before.  Wise could be construed, to actually mean quite the moron, case in point President Bush and numerous politicians.  Wise in a positive light, can mean responding sensibly to something or having or showing experience, but can even mean only one subject, not really all encompassing.  Wiser is used to qualify wise, many of us already know this, for example we know what did not make Bud wiser.  Since I am out of coffee beans, which for me is a very major calamity, I have to cut this post short and may not finish it later.

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By Shenonymous, October 17, 2008 at 3:24 pm Link to this comment

Shudder me not, FENWICK but here is a website that might help you understand. http://web.media.mit.edu/~dustin/WhatIsUnderstanding.html
“Understanding is the ability to connect a representation to many other representations. If you understand something in only one or two ways, you scarcely understand it at all.

According to Marvin Minsky you understand things when you have redundant connections and alternative routes, so that when one line of thinking fails, you are not stuck.  Who is Marvin Minsky? A rather famous MIT Cognitive Scientist.

Here is something that might give an example of understanding philosophers:

How many philosophers does it take to change a lightbulb?

Pragmatist: Hey, if holding the bulb while four of your friends turn the chair works for you, then that is the right way to change a lightbulb for you.

Empiricist: We can’t know how to change a lightbulb, but we can make lists of how big it is, the wattage, the thickness of the glass, the composition of the filiment…

Thomist: When we examine the concept of “lightbulb” one requirement is that it light up. Hence, if it does not light up, it is not a lightbulb. If it is not a lightbulb, there is no reason to change it.

Aristotelean: Changing of lightbulbs can be divided into: manipulation of the old bulb, and manipulation of the new bulb. Bulb manipulation, in turn, can be divided into: Turning motion, raising motion, dropping motion. We cannot understand motion.

Kantian: By understanding the lightbulb-in-itself, it becomes, for us, a new lightbulb.

Platonist: The closer our lightbulb gets to the Ideal Lightbulb, the less it requires changing.

Socrates:  What is the nature of a lightbulb such that it even knows it is a lightbulb?

Dialectical Materialist: None. The lightbulb changes because of it’s own internal contradictions.

Skeptic: We can’t know if we’re changing the lightbulb. We can’t know if changing the lightbulb is an improvement. In fact, we can’t really know if it’s dark. Especially with the lights out.

Hegelian: When the lightbulb becomes irrational, it ceases to exist. Insofar as a new lightbulb sheds light on the Absolute Idea, it becomes a rational lightbulb, and comes into being as part of our striving for the rational.

Post-structuralist: By rejecting neo-Enlightment notions that privilege “light,” we can conceptualize the relationship between optically-oriented envisioning and those signifiers that address interpretations of post-colonial modernism as an established text within the framework of which, intertextually, we are lead to reject any causal relationship between the operands and the motivators.

Memetics: The speed at which the notion (“a burned out lightbulb should be replaced”) has spread is inexplicable unless one looks at the idea itself.

Existentialist: Why change the lightbulb?

Buddhist:  Would changing the lightbulb lead to Nirvana?

Leefeller:  What lightbulb?

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By Shenonymous, October 15, 2008 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

Steve Canyon and Terry and the Pirates say the Illuminati AHs are f**k’n up their air space and that they better brace themselves for a hail of pigsh*t.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 15, 2008 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

lastdaywatchers, October 15 at 2:00 pm #

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom
**************************************************

The repugnance of sane people to skypilot trolls like you is the mark of rationality.

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By Sodium, October 15, 2008 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Leefeller,October 15 at !:50 pm.

Leefeller,

Yes, you can call me “Salty” or “Sodium Chloride” or “NaCl”,if any of this acidic and unhealthy item can bring a cheerful smile to your good and open-minded person,so that the possible daily stress in your daily life may become less stressful.

NO KIDDING….....

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By lastdaywatchers, October 15, 2008 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

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By PatrickHenry, October 15, 2008 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

If luck is preparedness meeting opportunity, then wisdom is where learning meets experience.

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By Leefeller, October 15, 2008 at 2:50 pm Link to this comment

Sodium

Or may I call you salty?

Yes,it seems I do many things “Unintentionally”, which seem quite often to turn out plausible. Sorry for being redundant.

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By Sodium, October 15, 2008 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
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Re:Shenonymous,October 14 at 9:12 pm.

Shenonymous,

The following paragraph of yours is not just excellent,it is OUTSTANDING,in precision and eloquence.I feel that it is worth repeating for EMPHASIS:

“As a coordination of knowledge and experience,there are elements that are measurable,specific public knowledges and particular verifiable experiences.The
degrees Sodium talks about are similar to the degrees
around circumference of a circle that are facilitating when working with the concept of angles.
He has given a way to view the subjectivity of wisdom
empirically as expressed on a an implied 3-dimensional x,y,z graph.He admonishes that we must
not mistake the relationship as illustrated as the
graphic form of it,which is only offered as a way to
objectively see what is actually subjective.That there is an intersection between the concepts of wisdom and truth will depend entirely on particular instances of wisdom and the truth to which it is wise about.It would be a matter of application.I hope Sodium I have understood your comments correctly.”

Shenonymous:I must admit publicly that I could not
have possibly expressed my comments/thoughts more precisely and eloquently then you had/have just done in this OUTSTANDING paragraph of yours.You seem to have a compelling mind characterized with an
admirable capacity to read what is in my mind through
a distance of miles.Most fascinating,indeed.Thank you

By the way,I checked the link you provided about the
Wisdom Scoreboard proposed by sociologist Monika Ardelt and I answered the 39 questions to the best of my ability.The result was 3.9 which meant moderately
wise person,according to Monika Ardelt’s scale.Not
bad,since the highest possible score,as cited at the end of the questionnaire,was 5-4.I am at the verge of
the number 4.I enjoyed going through the whole 39 questions on the Scoreboard.

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By Sodium, October 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Leefeller,October15 at 5:57 am.

Leefeller,

The content of your above post is just FANTASTIC,since it has reconfirmed further the plausibility of what I have outlined in my original post of October 12 at 8:07 pm,as I have suggested to express the relationship between wisdom and truth in a three dimensional x,y,z graphical form.

Please recall,with me,that I have made a point in defining wisdom that the possibility,(now it is a sure thing after I read your above Re),of contentions
about the definition could not be ruled out.I have made a similar calling to the possibility of contentions could not also be ruled out with regards to the examples of wisdom.Since the content of your
above post has taken care of the possibility of disagreements over the definition,the possibility of
contentions over the examples of wisdom requires some
elaboration or rather a degree of proof for which I
have chosen two short examples of wisdom to prove that the contention does also exist:

(1)Take Plato’s stated wisdom:

“A tyrant is always stirring up some war or other that people may require a leader.”

Contention:It was possible that the tyrant might have wanted Plato to shut up or else,meaning be shipped to the grave.

(2)Take Maha Ghosonada’s wisdom:

“When you make peace with yourself,you make peace with the world.”

Contention:Bitter and angry persons with Nazi/fascist mentality,most likely,will tell Maha Ghosonada to go
to hell,because of whatever their reasonings,the sad
fact remains that they are determined to practice power over others,regardless of the extent of sufferings,destructions and agonies they bring to their victims.Does this sound familiar? Yes,indeed.
Just look around….....

Leefeller:Thank you for “unintentionally” making the
x,y,z graphical model,concerning the relationship between wisdom and truth,more plausible.

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By Shenonymous, October 15, 2008 at 9:07 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, She said earlier Wisdom assumes the truth so does not really seek it.  It is through the exercise of wisdom how truth becomes revealed, only through men’s actions and expressions.  You said, Defining a wise person, could be any person wiser then [sic] you?   What do you mean by wiser?  Are there any wise gals?  I don’t know about wisdom being restricted to man (men).  My cat shows extreme wisdom at times when he runs and hides under the bed when it thunders.  He also knows truth comes out of a can that says turkey feast on it.

Those three wise guys in the bible, were star struck.  Ever wonder how far from the orient they had to travel on camel?  I am not sure where the orient starts and the Middle East begins, excatly.  So, like, “Hey Melchior (one of the wise guys), did you load up enough Budwiser on camel #1?” asks Balthasar.  Now Melchior, Balthasar, and Caspar (the three wise guys) are names from how far to the East?  And Melchior replies, “Yeah, I got us each a 6-pack and a 6-pack for Joe.”

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By Leefeller, October 15, 2008 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

Defining a wise person,  could be any person wiser then you?  Hence, the use of “wise guy”.

Wisdom should not be called real, for without man wisdom could not exist, for real wisdom only exists though man.  Subjectivity defines wisdom, only through man, animals do not, I believe have wisdom.  Wisdom seeking truth, suggests wisdom is not static.

In the bible we have three wise guys,  they either had a heavy promotion campaign or had cards printed.

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By Shenonymous, October 14, 2008 at 10:12 pm Link to this comment

leilah, just getting in and relaxing from work, and thinking about the question about wisdom you so splendidly put, I see that Sodium has once again sagaciously given us the benefit of a marvelous explanation about the relationship between wisdom and truth.  It is for me a wonderful incidence of serendipity that I happened onto this forum, for the both of you.

I have given a good deal of thought to the question and so shall add my comments for whatever they might be worth.  If there are others with a different idea, they are welcome to chime in.

On the relationship between wisdom and truth, a working definition of each term needs to be made before a meaningful relationship can be established. 

Sodium gave a somewhat rounded definition of truth showing various paradigms of truth as viewed in the three Abrahamic religions, but refrained from saying exactly what truth means to atheists or agnostics.  The concept of space was offered as a legitimate environment to demonstrate a model of subjective ideas in a confluence, or intersection of wisdom and truth.

In my view, I don’t think wisdom is one of those things that is entirely subjective and my reasoning is because it takes the judgment of others in an external world to say whether or not someone is wise or not, where being wise is the signification of wisdom.  One cannot simply make the claim for oneself.  One can, however,  know if some judgment or act was in retrospect wise by checking the external world to see if those judgments or acts were in fact good and asking the question, did it turn out well?  If it did not, it would have to be judged not as a case of wisdom but as folly.

That being said, the subjectivity of wisdom is also descriptive inasmuch as it is a culmination of one’s intelligence, knowledge, perceptiveness, spirituality, penetrating insight, and good judgment distinguishing it from other virtues.  These are mental capacities, awarenesses, mental vitality, and mentally distinguishing abilities, hence are psychological in nature, i.e., subjective, arising or proceeding from a person’s mind. As a kind of knowledge, Wisdom is not just one type of knowledge, but is diverse clear and certain apprehension. What a wise person needs to know and understand constitutes a varied list: the most important goals and values of life and puts that knowledge into practice.

A significant element of the question is to ask whether or not wisdom is subjective and can it be analyzed and exhibited as if it were an objective reality on a graph? If this can be done, it reasonably implies wisdom may be treated as a discrete, or distinct, thing.

As a coordination of knowledge and experience, there are elements that are measurable, specific public knowledges and particular verifiable experiences.  The degrees Sodium talks about are similar to the degrees around the circumference of a circle that are facilitating when working with the concept of angles.  He has given a way to view the subjectivity of wisdom empirically as expressed on an implied 3-dimensional x, y, z graph.  He admonishes that we must not mistake the relationship as illustrated as the graphic form of it, which is only offered as a way to objectively see what is actually subjective. That there is an intersection between the concepts of wisdom and truth will depend entirely on particular instances of wisdom and the truth to which it is wise about.  It would be a matter of application.  I hope Sodium I have understood your comments correctly.

Offering a different, but analogous to the x, y, z, graph, objective model, I refer you to sociologist Monika Ardelt who so much as theorized a Wisdom Scorecard, see
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/magazine/20070430_WISDOM.html?_r=1&oref=login
check it out if you have an intrigue for yourself.  This model also claims that wisdom while a subjective state, may be treated as an objective reality.
I hope leilah, this has helped and not contributed to further confusion.

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By Sodium, October 14, 2008 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Leilah,October 13 at 12:22 pm.

Leilah,

You did not interrupt and you were not being obtuse,as you put it,because you raised your inquiries in good faith,I could easily detect from reading your fine post.

All the questions you have raised can be answered in the following condensed points,cited not in the order
of the questions you raised but in the order of importance as far as the x,y,z graphical model was/is concerned:

(1)Please remember,at all times when you deal with the x,y,z graphical model proposed,that the graph is only a model expressing genuine and SPECIFIC relationships between the CONCEPT OF WISDOM,including
definitions,examples,characteristics,categories,and
the CONCEPT OF TRUTH.The TRUTH,here,HAS ITS OWN SPECIFICITY AS “THE TRUTH OF WISDOM” and cannot be violated.If it is violated the whole concept of the
graph will become meaningless,since the word “TRUTH”
means different things to different people:

To some Christians Jesus is the “TRUTH” because he said so about himself:“I am the TRUTH AND THE LIHGT”.

TO MUSLIMS the TRUTH is to be a good Muslim who
has already declared that “There Is No God But God And Muhammad Is HIS Messenger.”

To some Jews the TRUTH is in the TEN COMMANDMENTS and
the TORAH.

To the Atheists and Agnostics,the Truth is certainly
none of the above.

As it may be seen,when you deal with the CONCEPT OF
TRUTH,one must be extremely careful to avoid falling in the trap or rather to avoid opening a can of worms

In fact,this SPECIFICITY is the protector and the van
guard(body guard) of the TRUTHFULNESS OF WISDOM.And the FUNCTIONALITY and USEFULNESS of the model stops right there.And No More.I repeat,it is only a model for a functional definition of a complex relations
between TRUTH AND WISDOM.The model should NOT be burdened with more weight than it was designed to handle.

(2)As to SPACE,yes you can use it to express subjective matters and in our case issues and concepts.In fact,that was exactly what Albert Einstein did in his great works in theoretical physics and the photoelectric discovery for which he won the Noble Prize for physics in 1921.To acquire a
more profound understanding of SPACE,I suggest you Google the following:

Albert Einstein’s views/treatment of Space and Time.

You will be overwhelmed by the information the computer may throw in your face to read such as the
Special and General Theory of Relativity along Space and Time.Ignore all of them except the treatises that
deal with Space and Time.Read them all and try to understand how Einstein treated Space and Time,especially Space.If you can do that,you will appreciate the x,y,z,graphical model even more,because the doubt in your mind about using Space
for subjective matters,concepts and issues will evaporate.

(3)As to my using the word perpendicular instead of the word vertical,it was due to the fact that I had the whole x,y,z,graph drawn on a sheet of paper which was before me on the desk as I was typing what I wanted to post and address to Shenonymous through the
forum of Truthdig.Indeed,the x-axis was perpendicular
in 90 degrees angle to y-axis and the y-axis was perpendicular in 90 degrees angle to x-axis and z-axis dividing the 90 degrees angle into two equal
angles of 45 degrees each and separating the x-axis
and y-axis with equal distances.Therefore,I had no choice but using the correct word “perpendicular” in this circumstance instead of the word “vertical”.

The degrees I refer to,here, are not the degrees normally used in the fields of Heat,Thermodynamics,
Chemistry,Kinetics and cooking,but the degrees used in the field of Trigonometry.I state this statement,here,in due respect for those who are unaware of existence of such differences in the word “degrees”.

Leilah:I took my time to explain all of the above to you,because I felt you were very sincere in your inquiries as you expressed them in your post referred to above.Good Luck…..

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By leilah, October 13, 2008 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

The problem with aplying graphical analysis to subjective issues as wisdom and truth is that in the end you are left with what appears in the mind’s eye as a spatial relationship.  (Aside, by perpendicular I took it to mean vertical to form a simple x, y, z graph.)
Now a spatial arrangement of truth and wisdom might be misleading to the pursuer.  Do truth and wisdom meet at the origin of x, y, z or does it expand somehow? 
I just heard an interview of with an author who wrote a book on proverbial wisdom from around the world.  Does your method imply that each example of wisdom we are interested in should be graphed and the resultant would tell us what?
I read your post and your exchange with Shenonymous.  I agree with Leefeller.  Both of your posts are mind-expanding. 
What it got me thinking of as an afterword, was democracy.  It’s amazing to me how examples of truth and wisdom (sometimes painful)can create or open up lines of communication with such brilliant thought-provoking people who are willing to take the time to pose a rhetorical question, and those who are capable and willing to respond with such a novel answer.
Pardon my interuption if I am being obtuse.

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By Sodium, October 13, 2008 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To:KDelphi

Subject:Correction of the Date in my last post addressed to you.

Sorry,KDelphi,I mistyped the date of your Re post I commented on,in my last post addressed to you.It should correctly read as follows:

Re:KDelphi, “OCTOBER 11” (instead of “OCTOBER 8”),at
12:48 pm.

I apologize for any inconvenience I might have caused

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By Shenonymous, October 13, 2008 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

Oh I almost forgot, there is mail-in voting already going on and we can only trust there are reliable people on the collection and tallying end of things.  Except I’ve learned not to trust anybody, right?  Well, maybe more than a few are trustworthy.  This is a vast country and I would expect the absolutely red states will absolutely fuck with the votes to make sure they stay red, the blue states will have overwhelming votes for Obama but for purple states every polling place and vote counting location will have to be monitored closely.  Too bad this goes on in America.  But voter fraud goes on in every country that has “free” elections.  The criminal fascists are always lurking and stalking.

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By Shenonymous, October 13, 2008 at 9:31 am Link to this comment

Sodium, I predict Obama/Biden will win by a landslide, because all those disenfranchised people of color and colorless are going to get themselves out of their normal complacency and into the voting booth and will watch all the voting locations like hawks.  Course those where voting machines are used someone will have to figure out how to make sure there isn’t voting machine hacking.  Also exit polls are going to be matched with voting counts.  Isn’t there something called ACORN at work in your neck of the woods?  Supposedly the Republicans are all up to shitsticks about that group.

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By Leefeller, October 13, 2008 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

Great posts on wisdom by both, Sodium and She,


Agreeing with wisdom or perceived wisdom can define the difference of what is not the truth?  If wisdom is seeking the truth, not agreeing with wisdom means not seeking the truth? 

Opposite word of wisdom defined?  Stupidity, bad judgment, doing desperate things, many words come to mind, is their an antonym to the word wisdom? Politics?

Thanks again, enjoyed the refreshing enlightenment.

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By Sodium, October 13, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Shenonymous,October 10 at 3:10 am.

“Aw,that is melodramatic and besides Obama/Biden is going to win.”

Shenonymous,

I do hope that your prediction is correct-that is that Obama/Biden ticket is going to win.I have my doubts because of the following reasons:

If the election on November 4,2008 is dead heat or
very close,the repetition of 2000 and 2004 in Florida
and Ohio,respectively,is not just a possibility,it is a probability.The reason for saying that is based on the FACT that I have received,by surface mail,three identical applications sent to me by three different
organizations,recommending to vote by mail.Exactly
three identical applications have been received also by my wife.The three organizations are:

(1)An Application received from:

League of Conservative Voters Education Funds
!920 L. NW,Suite 800
Washington,DC 20036

(2)An Application received from:

The County Board of Election of the county I live in.
I refrain from giving its address for my personal safety,

(3)An application received from:

The County Board of Election of the county I live in.
This application has one whole page of it showing Obama hand-shaking in a huge rally.Again,I refrain from giving the address of the county I live in for safety reason.

How can I trust those applications,I will never know.
What really bugs me most is the application sent by
the The League of Conservative Voters Fund in Washington,DC.How in the world they managed to get my address? And how dare they considered me one of them,
or at least a far away conservative which I consider
an insult? The whole episode stinks and sound fishy to me.

In order for Obama/Biden to win,they have to win by a
landslide.Otherwise,the other party will steal the election once more.To prevent the eventuality of a fraud,in case the election on November 4,2008 ends up a dead heat or very close,I suggest that all active members of Obama/Biden ticket’s team read the following well documented book,exposing the extent of the fraud that took place in the 2004 election:

Fooled Again
By
Mark Miller,Professor at Boston University/New York University.

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By Shenonymous, October 13, 2008 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Sodium, every once in a while an extra stunning mind comes visiting the forums that makes it worth the effort of posting here.  You are one of those ghosts of the internet and I thank you for taking what seemed a rhetorical question seriously.  It was meant to be taken seriously.  I put it out there with just a hint of humor to see what kind of minds would actually nibble.  As you can see, there was only one who had the courage.  You are a true knight of the heart and mind.  I am personally enriched for your comments.  We are all enriched so I will thank you for myself and for everyone else who may find benefit.

The notion of wisdom does not seem to be taken with any depth of interest these days in the world.  It is a sorrier place for it.  But perhaps Chris Hedges does try.  I shall read his articles more carefully and give him credit though I may not agree with him.

If I may, the word philosophy means to love wisdom, where sophia means wisdom and philos, the present participle loving, is the action of the verb to love.  In other words, philosophy means to actively love wisdom. 

The meaning of wisdom is the ability or natural power to make a decision and act based on the combination of true knowledge, experience, and intuitive understanding, it includes common sense but also the rational sense.  So the question is what does it mean to actively love wisdom, that is, what does philosophia actually mean and how is it relevant to our lives today?  This is more than a rhetorical question. 

Your model using a three vector x, y, z approach that maps the various manifestations of wisdom we experience gives a perfectly functional definition as well as some very fine examples to realize that definition.  Having a functional definition, we may then use it as a measure of men’s decision-based actions.  Wisdom assumes the truth so does not really seek it.  It is through the exercise of wisdom how truth becomes revealed, only through men’s actions and expressions. 

Using this functional definition of wisdom, we may apply it not only to today’s leaders and wannabes but to ourselves.

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By Sodium, October 13, 2008 at 5:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:KDelphi, October 8 at 12:48 pm.

“It is nearly impossible to believe Congress did not know about this.”

KDelphi,

Based upon what I have reviewed so far,it seems to me that Congress has known all along.Please check the following link:

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

of October 8,2008.

And look for an article written by Naomi Wolf.

Also,I highly recommend to check the link graciously
provided by Shenonymous in her post of October 9 at
7:39 pm.

For a real good background about the incremental shifts that have already taken place in descending towards fascism,I suggest that you make a point in
reading the following book:

The End Of America
By
Naomi Wolf.

Good Luck…..

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By Sodium, October 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:Shenonymous ,October 11 at 7:38 am.

“Uh,could somebody please help me out? What is wisdom?”

Shenonymous,

I have followed your posts as far as back as I can remember-may be for two years and counting….

Although I am fully convinced that you are very capable and able to find out what really wisdom is,I
shall take you on your words of plea for help and attempt to help as much as my circumstances allow,for the benefits of all interested persons.

Since the whole idea of wisdom;that is to be wise,is to live and act in the real world,(avoiding delusional human tendency),one may try to understand wisdom as one step to come closer to the “truth”.
With that in mind,one may envision that the characteristics of wisdom revolve around a central point as a point of connection for three axes:

Definition of Wisdom,(The X-axis).
Examples of Wisdom,(The Y-axis).
The Resultant “Truth”(The Z-axis).

Definition of Wisdom,(The X-axis):
===================================
The American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language gives two closely related,but not identical, definitions of wisdom:

(1)Wisdom:“Understanding of what is true,right or lasting.”

(2)Wisdom):“Common sense,sagacity,good judgment. (Example):It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do
desperate things.”

The word “true” in the first definition may create a problem for those who believe that with the exception of continuous changes in the human life since birth,
and death,all other “truths” are relative.Therefore,I am inclined to assign the second definition which
embodies the words"common sense” as the X-axis.One may draw such an axis as a perpendicular straight line on the board of a classroom,or on a sheet of paper.

Examples of Wisdom,(The Y-axis):
=================================
As one search the internet for examples of wisdom,one will find that wisdom is categorized into numerous categories such as religious wisdom,Atheist-Anostic
wisdom,educational wisdom,cultural wisdom and even funny wisdom etc..For the purpose at hand,the following examples of wisdom will be sufficient:

Plato:
======
A tyrant is always stirring up some war or other,in order that people may require a leader.”

Ralph W. Sockman:
=================
“The test of courage comes when you are in the minority.The test of tolerance comes when you are in the majority.”

Maha Ghosonanda:
=================
“When you make peace with yourself,you make peace with the world.”

Don Hershberg:
===============
“Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.”

Martin Luther King,Jr.:
========================
“There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us.When we discover this,we are less prone to hate our enemies.”

I can go on and on reciting example after example of wisdom.The above examples should give an idea about the inherited common sense in the statements of wisdom,although the possibility of contention cannot be ruled out.Because of this,one has to draw the Y-axis as a horizontal straight line connected to the to the X-axis which was drawn for the definition of wisdom.

The Resultant “Truth”,(The Z-axis):
=====================================
Since there will always be some kind of contetions
rotating around the definitions of wisdom and the examples of wisdom and since the whole concept and characteristics of wisdom aimed at exploring the road to the “truth”,one is compelled to draw the Z-axis as
a straight line from the connecting point of the X-axis and Y-axis with equal distance from both.In other words,regardless of the degree of contentions
about the definitions and examples of wisdom,the
“Truth Of Wisdom” still exists somewhere between what
was defined as wisdom and what was stated as an example of wisdom.

Shenonymous,I do hope all of the above will be of
some help to you,although I believe your talent in
covering the internet will do better,if you have the time, Good Luck….

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By PatrickHenry, October 12, 2008 at 11:30 am Link to this comment

The plague on the Whitehouse is a result of the old karma adage “fruit of the poisonous tree”.

A legacy president, who like his father was culpable in crimminal politics, created and mishandled 9/11 and caused untold innocent deaths in many nations as collateral damage.

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By Shenonymous, October 12, 2008 at 9:45 am Link to this comment

nonesense – no sense, we must make our own sense, that is why only the human has a mind.  Make sense of what the eyes become accustomed to seeing, make sense of the hellcats lurking in the darkness in our minds.  Sort the entropy, from the chaos forced on the world, put things in visible perspective.  Have to contort the truth out of the lies the witches bring.  Will we ever understand our culture?  Can we ever?  It is necessary to feel our way to the future.  We have to feel it out of our cerebral cortex.  Let nonsense be said!  It is what we are reduced to.  It is the way, it is the Tao.

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By Leefeller, October 12, 2008 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

She

If nonsense be said, then let it be said by the “good book”.  The Wizard of Oz, for the muchkins are the people.  And let there be said, a great house should fall on the wicked witch of the North.

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By KDelphi, October 11, 2008 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Looks like we let Bush get away with suspending Posse Comitatus in a signing statement.

It is nearly impossible to believe that Congress did not know about this.

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2008 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

And the herd of pigs were all powerful and created by god who turned the demons Jesus cast out into a band of archangels. And the angels led by Gabriel flew out of the pigsty to sh*t on the delusional Illuminati at midnight on the 15th of May and they were eliminated because of the angelsh*it, pretty powerful stuff.  Prophecy wiped out with a single snort!  Stories of the good can be made up by just anybody.  And Jesus said there was no such thing as the truth because women have none, and all men have just a part of the truth, and don’t know how to get their poopy together to have it all in one place.

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By lastdaywatchers, October 11, 2008 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

Jesus cast out the legion of demons into a herd of pigs.

And he is about to unlock the bottomless pit so that demons like those will torment all men who believe not the truth.

If you want to know when this will happen read and believe the May 15th Prophecy

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By Shenonymous, October 11, 2008 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

Uh, could somebody please help me out?  What is wisdom? 

Truth is a paradigm, but obviously not a dominant one, since nobody seems to know what that is either.

Notice that GWB says the G-7 will do what it takes, he didn’t say God would do what it takes!  Oh boy, was that a little glimpse of da trooth?  See LA Times October 11.  Guess the big dickheads are about to fix this world financial disaster problem GWB and company are responsible for.  Bet they aren’t too happy with him, oh, and his God who can’t fix shitsticks.

And no doubt there’s some pig-screaming and pig-cursing going on in some Alaskan quarters right now, as the Sus sarapalinusalaskus is being readied for the spit.  LA Times October 11 also reports Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin violated ethics laws and abused her power as governor in pressing to have her former brother-in-law fired as a state trooper, an independent legislative investigation concluded Friday.  Guess ethics are only to hold that half-white man’s feet to the fires of hell, you know, “that” one’s.  When are the imbecilic racists of America going to get their due?  If there only was a god, sigh. 

Louise, your logic is impeccable. Thank you.  You got it gal, but let’s bring a further ring of reality to it, it’s all the men who speak for a God that loves shit.  I mean why would a God be selectively mute and not speak to everybody?  Playing favorites?  And when and where exactly does this divine speaking take place?  Pig crap.  It is all too unseemly for a God to behave that way.

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By Louise, October 11, 2008 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

God gave us pigs cause they are yummy. And they [the pigs] give us [gave us] something to throw our garbage at.

God gave us people so-as they could create him ... God.

And create him they did ... in their own image.

So there should be no surprise that reflecting the image provides nightmares and disastor! Most especially if the “they” that created the “him” seems intend on destroying us.

Maybe that’s what “thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain” means. I mean if we want and need a real live breathing body to pretend to speak for God, chosing a moron to play that role should pretty well tell us all, not to many folks left with ... uh what do you call it? Oh yeh, faith. Except maybe the moron, who seems to have boundless faith. And the “NO Georgie” thundering from every corner must be what’s meant by “thou shalt not.”

Lets face it, GW calls on God to bless America and we get another cow-pie from on high. Does that mean the man who speaks for God loves shit?

Apparently. smile

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

Neo-Italian Proverb - a god that doesn’t punish, deprives himself of fun and games.

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By Bushfatigue, October 10, 2008 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

Italian Proverb:  When God punishes a land, he deprives its leaders of wisdom.

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

I am not being mean to pigs.  I love pigs and am just giving a few facts and pigtails, oh, oh, I mean pig tales.  I love those little porkers.  Yeah, bacon, ham, and sausage!  And their penchant for cursing.

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

A three-parter
Part 1
Have to say I’m an Eye Talian Indian. Those Dagos won’t give up anything entirely.  We could also say the Internet thing is just another form of the Tarantella for that matter.  It is very romantic to think humans ought to devolve.  Let’s see how far back should we go?  This seems like a variation on Ludditism and I for one look forward, keeping in mind what went before so that history is not useless or forgotten, but as they say to build on the shoulders of giants.  There does seem to be a catching up period when humans acquire new ways of doing things, new technologies so to speak, like using special fertilizing machinery to grow strawberries and such.  The technology is so much more efficient and overwhelms the human.  But then because the human has the capacity to even invent the new technologies, they adapt as that is what the humans can do better than other animals, especially pigs, and eventually catch up to the technology and that then becomes the usual thing, like the telephone, or cooking ranges are now commonplace.  Given time, which if the human doesn’t control itself, as TAO Walkers says, the new fangled inventions become idols as technology speeds up faster and faster with new versions replacing older ones on a daily basis and the human has a harder and harder time keeping up. But that does not imply that humans ought to give up being their natural way of being.  Inventing creatures.  Self-control is one of the secrets and that means self-control of appetites.  A small talk about desire and some of the info found on an internet search for desire!

In The Republic, Plato says that “spirit” is in a sense like a “spirited” horse. He thinks that this is the energy that drives the soul and may be used to reason how to keep desire in line.  Moderation, or what Plato called Temperance, means the limitation of desires. The root of all trouble, as far as Plato was concerned, is always unlimited desire.  In contrast to American appetite for wealth, property and power, European or Japanese nobility felt themselves superior to that kind of desire, although they didn’t always live in poverty.  They tended to war over issues of honor.

Whoever become the rulers also become the rich. Plato called this an “oligarchy” that means “few in power,” or the rule of the few.  A more appropriate modern term is “plutocracy,” or the rule of wealth.
Many think this is the current status in America.  The principle of this kind of state is the desire for riches; but it is a very disciplined desire, for no one can become or stay rich if they simply indulge themselves in pleasure and spending.  It has more to do with power in America and what kind of power wealth can promise.  We can certainly say that there have been other such states:  Commercial republics like Venice, Genoa, and the Netherlands,

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Part 2
The limitation of desire is also evident in many of the so-called “robber baron” industrialists of American history. Someone like John D. Rockefeller, the often hated founder of Standard Oil, lived quite simply with much self-disciplin and austerity. By the time he died he had actually given away about $550,000,000 ($8.25 billion in 1995 dollars), more money than any American had actually possessed before him. However, it is projected that the plutocratic kind of state will decay when the children of the rich decide simply to enjoy themselves and dissipate their wealth, or when the poor decide to take advantage of their numbers by overthrowing the rich.

The better result is a “democracy,” the rule of the people.  Although reluctantly, Plato paid respect to democracy as the “fairest” or “most beautiful”) of constitutions. The principle of this state is the desire of the many. This is “democratic” in the sense that all desires are equally good, which means, at the end of the day, anything goes. Because the desires and possessions of some inevitably interfere with the desires and acquisitiveness of others, Plato thought that because of self-interest, democracies would become increasingly undisciplined and chaotic, and could fall into anarchy.  In the end, people invariably will want someone to institute law and order and quiet things down. However there is a danger in giving sufficient power to someone to do that which leads to the next kind of state.

The tyrant succeeds in quieting things down. Then he establishes a new kind of government, a tyranny. The principle of this state is still desire, but now it is just the desire of the tyrant himself. Many have noted that nothing quite like this actually happened in Greek history. Tyrannies tended to precede, not follow, democracies.
That is what happened at Athens.

The English historian Thomas Babington, better known as Lord Macaulay believed that democracy would survive only until people got the idea that they could vote themselves wealth (though this principle has been attributed to others). Since that wealth must be taken from the people who create it, they are not going to like that, and the incentive for them to create it in the first place will be, to a greater or lesser extent, removed.

Economist in the area of Public Choice theory, described how the politicization of economic goods inevitably creates increased public conflict as the sense grows that wealth is something to be seized and distributed through state action (the socialist bent).  As everyone comes to believe that their prosperity depends on political success and consequently taken care of by the government, such a dynamic will tend to destabilize democracy, since in politics there are always losers and they begin to think that they are victims of the regime and have no stake in it.

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 5:56 pm Link to this comment

Part 3
However, capitalism is often criticized as a system with “winners and losers,” but the losers in capitalism are just the unsuccessful businesses, while the winners do win by providing what is most agreeable to consumers. In politics, the “winners and losers” are consumers, and the losers are those who are then legally robbed to pay off the winners, who have the power of the state to take what they want (if you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can at least get Paul to vote for you).

One might think that the Constitution curtails any drift towards a regime of seizure and redistribution because of the “Takings” clause of the Fifth Amendment: “Nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” But, the Takings clause, was an early casualty of enthusiasm over the New Deal and has steadily eroded ever since.  It is only now that a movement has developed, and received some attention from the Supreme Court, to enforce it—though the recent Kelo v. City of New London decision represents a setback.

For Plato’s argument, the tyrannical state is clearly the most unhappy kind of state.  All that matters is whether the tyrant himself is happy or unhappy.

Plato’s answer to that is to identify the nature of the “tyrannical personality”: since the tyrant is subject to completely unlimited desire, he can never be satisfied with anything he has. He will always want more.

That is also the answer in a famous scene in the 1948 movie Key Largo, with Humphrey Bogart and Edward G. Robinson. Robinson is a gangster holding a hotel full of people, including Bogart, hostage. Bogart at one point asks him what he really wants out of all this. Robinson can’t say, so Bogart, like Socrates, makes a suggestion: isn’t it that all he really wants is just more? Robinson says, yes, yes, he wants more, more, more! That is the tyrannical personality.

In our century, it is not hard to find tyrannical personalities to fit Plato’s description.  Pre-emptive war with Iraq gave Americans theirs.  Trying to find another one currently in the world is not that easy.  Maybe in Africa, maybe in Darfur, Somalia?  Ethiopia?  The Middle East?  Russia?  Maybe somebody else could provide that information.

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

She,

Please be easy on the pigs, I beleive they are like skunks and get a unwarranted rap

Since I have heard extensively about the three little pigs, I believe myself an expert on pigs also. What was the one about “this little piggy’s”? Guess I cannot remember that one, so I’m not as knowledgeable as I had thought. Having raised pigs one thing I noticed and is very easy to say, they are much smarter than Republicans, though they seem very much like all politicians when they are running to the feed trough, might have something to do with the term “pork”?

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By cyrena, October 10, 2008 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Laura, You are reading my mind again. This has been my fear for a while now, and I honestly don’t know what to do or how to prepare. In fact, I’ve only just gotten around to speaking my fears out loud, even though this is EXACTLY what came to my mind when Amy Goodman first broached the topic of the first ever…US troops engaged on US soil, obviously for the purposes of controlling US citizens.
So, it’s like ‘they’ already have a plan for cheating, (again) and plan to be ready for whatever reaction is bound to come. A colleague was just asking me if I thought people would really react, because it seems like so many folks are still in denial. (not like my own earlier generation that really WOULD NOT put up with this). I told her I honestly didn’t know. I mean Hitler’s victims seemed to march pretty dumbly to their graves, and I’m convinced we’ve been led to the same authoritarianism over these past 8 years. How different from Hitler’s Nazi’s or Secret Police can US troops on US soil be? I’m worried.
Meantime, I’m sort of afraid to ask, but what kind of ‘hate’ are you encountering in your phone work? Does it seem like standard racism, or something different? I know…might be hard to tell. I’ve been trying to figure it out for years.

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By octopus, October 10, 2008 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment

URGENT PLEA TO MOTHERS!!!
This is your leader….Pay Attention, Please?.
Your Country Needs You!!! Yes you. I know it must be a bit of a surprise… but I flow tangentially again away from the old talking points memo I see rattling away at the end of my hand….
Uh Huuughm…. All Mothers on Red Alert, I say RED Alert. Department of Consumer Security Alert 00001!!! As of 0800 hours all mothers are hereby instructed to load all fledgling consumer units into the state sponsered fossil fuel consuming conveyance tool. Transport aforementioned fledgling consumer units to the nearest(strike that I mean FURTHEST) Consumer Security Gratification Zone. You will then Consume in massive quantities, I mean I’m talking pretzels with extra mustard, I mean choke it down with a triple nochochino,spare no expense, and instill in your spawn the patriotism and reborn sacredness of consumption, I mean show them the great TRUTHS of materialism. Therein lies salvation brothers and sis…oops…ughh ...This is your leader…uh… Not a Priest, or a fitness guru…of any form.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain….
I am the great and powerful….
Somewhere Over the Rainbow….. Blue Gums Fly…
Why, Ohh Why Can’t I….?,

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

That is cursing Leefeller and I do that a lot myself, jeezus F***n keyreyst!  Not only now but regularly for everything especially living in the mindless state of Texass.  While you are at it could you do a special curse dance for rain here in north Texas? I’d be much obliged.  @$#&=#*<*#+@”*^%  I don’t think that will do it.  But I always give it my best shot.

Facts About Pigs
Amongst the most common animals, found almost everywhere in the world, are pigs. Though they are native to Eurasia, there is hardly any country of the world where you cannot find pigs roaming around the rubbish bins, but they are thought to go around cursing a lot. And they make curses too.  And they lie.  And they are racists.  They belong to the ‘Suidae’ family and have been classified into 15+1 species, namely Sus barbatus, Sus bucculentus, Sus cebifrons, Sus celebensis, Sus domestica, Sus falconeri, Sus heureni, Sus hysudricus, Sus oliveri, Sus philippensis, Sus salvanius, Sus scrofa, Sus strozzi†, Sus timoriensis and Sus verrucosus, Sus sarahpalinusalaskus. In some comments to come, I will provide interesting facts and amazing information on pigs. Look for them and come to know more about this cute, little animal.

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By moineau, October 10, 2008 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

oh please, leon… not here too. such a great exchange you had with scooby. i think we have read it all now. ~lt

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By Chuck Miller, October 10, 2008 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well, that is certainly the kind of clear-headed perspective we need in troubled times like these. I was afraid the NSA was going to send out an army of magical unicorns to turn back Democrats at voting places. I have been trying frantically to get in touch with Harry Potter and the Incredible Hulk for help.

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

I find myself doing quite often lately, so I believe in curses.

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By lastdaywatchers, October 10, 2008 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

The ONLY way you are going to truly understand about the CURSE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, you need to read all of the post of the May 15th Prophecy

By doing a Google search of the May 15th Prophecy you will see with 100% accuracy the full meaning of the relationship God with the Bush Administration

You will also see the relationship has been foretold in advance and more importantly you will see what is about to happen next

Do a Google search of the May 15th Prophecy

(For you truth diggers just click on my name)

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

Irrationality needs to be avoided by thinking critically.  There is no such thing as curses.  There are only foolish self-serving men who do not want to take responsibility for the idiocy of their greed and need for power.  Prophecy is absolute stupidity.  Try a bottle of vino instead.

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By lastdaywatchers, October 10, 2008 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

The ONLY way you are going to truly understand about the CURSE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION and to read all of the post of the May 15th Prophecy

By doing a Google search of the May 15th Prophecy you will see with 100% accuracy the full mean of the relationship God has had on the Bush Administration

You will also see this has been foretold in advance and more importantly you will see what is about to happen next

Do a Google search of the May 15th Prophecy

(For you truth diggers just click on my name)

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By moineau, October 10, 2008 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

my question is: why are they deploying these troops for crowd control at this time? consider the timing. three to four weeks before the election.

i’m out there phoning for obama, and i’m hearing both enthusiasm and hate. but what i fear most is that we won’t win and why? the election is going to be stolen again. that’s a possiblity and there’s plenty of evidence already building. and how will we react this time? how will the cities react?

on nov 4, i think people will be ready to rumble if obama’s win is stolen (if the exit polls don’t match the outcome, for example.)

and if anything violent were to happen prior to the election? the people will have had enough. ~lt

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By KDelphi, October 10, 2008 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

Folk—Thanks for the reply.

It looks like it would have to be “us ordinary” people, because Article 5, as applies to Congress (which you would, I think, agree has done nothing), requires that “old stickler” 3/4 vote—actually , they couldnt even get 2/3 to overturn the Bailout , nor to stop war funding!

I think that they just cover their collective asses and let those in safe seats vote as benefits their campaign finanacing. All others, line up or get out of the caucus.

Mostly, I think that they just want to quit and become lobbyists. Now, those are peole that they will listen to!

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By Folktruther, October 10, 2008 at 12:37 pm Link to this comment

KDelphi, the problem with Congress is that it is not united in opposing presidential power, which is united.  Checks and Balances of the American ideological fable disunites people power, producing gridlock for people legislation, allowing united power of the president and corporations to rule. 

This happened to the Roman Senate as well, an Emperor rising who was a military dictator, under the guise of the institutions of the old republic.
The Senate could not stand up to him.

So the American people must mobilize, possibly under article five of the Consitituion, which mandates a way to change it.  This was proposed by Gove Vidal in a speech to the National Press Association in 1993.

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

While we are high fiveing here, If it make you feel better Fenwick, you write and express yourself much better than I, which may not be perceived as a complement coming from me. 

Tao Walker,

Keep you wisdom coming, as you said:  “we are all Indians now”. Now I am going out to do some shopping with my worthless money, before the mad rush, to buy a wheel barrel.

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

bilejones – interesting name, but have you recently paid to have your car fixed, shopped even at MalWart (who of late has frequently been very short on produce by the way, mainly because the farmers are hurting to the quick), been to the dentist, or bought gas (not counting the recent drop since the world’s finances are in the toilet and the friggin gas and auto companies are friggin freakin out cause nobody but nobody even the seven dwarfs can afford gas or a new car)? This lull in the price of gas is just a stopover, betcha it goes sky high again after McCain/Palin loses and the markets fail again.  You must be royally richer than middle class because the middle class is getting a royal screw from the emperor and his corporate cronies.

You know what independence, even some of those who do not believe in god agrees with you?

FENWICK – you write rather well yourself.  I read all of your posts on the forums I visit.  Sometimes you sound like my favorite and precocious nephew who always has terribly good insights.  Let’s hear it for Jooooohhhhhnnnnnyyy.

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By KDelphi, October 10, 2008 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

she—I’m not sure I understand al that you attempted to express. But Common Cause is calling for a Constitutional Conventin. I have heard others, also. Of course, it would take unrest. Maybe it wil just take money—the bailout. That alwasy seems to upset US citizens more than anything else.

http://descant.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/common-cause-partners-to-call-for-constitutional-convention-in-late-2008-or-early-2009/

Of course, I am sure that the Congress understand the constitution better than I do. And they havent done shit.

Maybe next time (this time?) we shouldve (should?) let Wall St. fall on its ass like we al have to do. The Congress, being so heavily invested in it, and dependent upon it—might wake up, if they were going to lose everything!

BTW—Thanks for reading all that stuff. I was pretty sure nobody would. I just read the Posse Comitatus Act stuff, and decided to see if they had really voted Bush that power. I just dont see that they did.

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By TAO Walker, October 10, 2008 at 11:39 am Link to this comment

Dr. Knowitall maybe could be less fatalistic if he saw these “trappings” for the transient things they are.  This internet gadget, f’r instance, is just another form of drumming….or smoke signals.  Cars are one way to get someplace.  So are horses.  This old Indian’s name reflects a long life of very long journeys on-foot.

The difference between domesticated “individuals” and free wild Human Beings following the Tiyoshpaye Way isn’t in whether they make use of things found in their “environment”....everybody must do that, of course.  The difference is, as suggested in the earlier post, how we see and understand these things.  Domesticated peoples, “individuated,” isolated from each other and our natural Living Arrangement, dependent on increasing levels of electro-mechanical and institutional “support” just to make it day-to-day, not surprisingly develop a kind of idolatrous view of these prosthetic contraptions themselves, as well as the larger system that produces them….and renders them “necessary.”

When, as inevitably they do, one or another of these essentially superfluous systems begins to collapse from the effects of its own complexity and contradictions, those enmeshed in its toils get frightened.  Many tame two-leggeds, for example, are so caught-up in the make-believe of “money” that the threat of having to do with much less or even not any at all of the stuff, equates in their “thinking” to a mortal threat to their very existence.  So we see what we do today in the “meltdown” of “the financial markets”....widespread panic.

Domesticated people, especially when driven by fear, have a hard time recognizing that the only REAL barriers to their freedom and genuine organic viability have been “implanted in their brain,” and only exist as figments of a mass delusion.  Again, the houses themselves are not disintegrating along with their “market value”....the shelter they’re supposedly intended to provide remains available if only the false “economy” that prevents their fulfilling this function could be got out of the way.

That’s what’s happening right now.  Let the damned thing go, Sisters and Brothers.  You’ll all be alot better-off when its gone….even if that’s far from how you’re feeling at-the-moment.

HokaHey!

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By independence, October 10, 2008 at 11:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

those who believe in “God” should also believe in the theory of paying for wrongdoing. For years, the country of Iraq and it’s people have been living in a nightmare, killed, injured, dislodged from homes and cities.  If the US citizens have been sitting on the sidelines, have known the wrong being done, but have not come out on the streets to protest in large numbers, perhaps this is payback time?, Karma?

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

Man, you are mean Fenwick, a man after my own heart!  Good ideas.  How can we make them happen?  How about we blow them outta da watta?  Anything less than that just ain’t no fun.  F any retreat!

KDelphi, you write some neat stuff here.  Doesn’t there have to be some visible signs of unrest?  Isn’t this rather surreal?  Surrealism - A 20th-century literary and artistic movement that attempts to express the workings of the subconscious and is characterized by fantastic imagery and incongruous juxtaposition of subject matter.  Let’s just switch literary and artistic movement with political and religious movement, and imagery with militiamen and subject matter with American people.  Then it will read:  Surrealism:  20th century political and religious movements that attempt to express the workings of the subconscious and is characterized by fantastic militiamen and incongruous juxtaposition of the American people.  I think that does it.

How do ya figure Jeffery Groff?  What are the signs that God hates Bush?  I mean Bush got to ruin the whole f**k’n world!  This ain’t tinker toys and Legos.

What’s that about the Sanchez’s sister’s brother?  This is serious.  Maybe the whole bloody Hispanic, Latino, Mexican American population will get with the program?

Yeah, Leefeller, just don’t take any blankets away from the White House, now or ever!

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 10:23 am Link to this comment

Fenwick,

Your suspicion’s side with mine. Gutless as congress has been may be supported by both money and threats, anything that works.  “Impeachment is off the table” comes to mind.  Our banana republic has been here much longer than any of us may have guessed.

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Since we seem to be regressing into the dark ages with light speed and now the first coming of Sarah Palin, I say a pox on the Whitehouse and it’s cronies.  Is that like saying, god will make them pay?

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By Jeffery Groff, October 10, 2008 at 9:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s obvious, God hates Bush.

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By EricinOak, October 10, 2008 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

Back in 1993, someone close to me was on the Enron board and got off because Wendy Gramm came directly from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission to the board, an obvious conflict of interest due to the fact that Enron had been lobbying the CFTC not to regulate the energy derivatives.  From Wiki: “After a lobbying campaign from Enron, the CFTC exempted it from regulation in trading of energy derivatives. Subsequently, Gramm resigned from the CFTC and took a seat on the Enron Board of Directors and served on its Audit Committee. While on the board of directors she received donations from Enron to support the Mercatus Center. After the Enron scandal, Gramm and the other directors of the energy company were named in several investor lawsuits, many of which have been settled. In particular, Gramm and other Enron directors agreed to an $168 million dollar settlement in a suit led by the University of California. As part of that settlement, the directors agreed to collectively pay $13 million to settle claims of insider trading. The remainder of the settlement was to be paid by insurance.”  Beware Mercatus Center!  The Gramm’s are so obviously criminals!

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By KDelphi, October 10, 2008 at 8:30 am Link to this comment

If you ask me, we need a Constitutional Convention.

The accepted dogma, that, we are “electing a Commander in Chief”, is very “odd” to me. In most modern countries, the popularly elected official cannot declare war (well, not here either,supposedly, but that is a straw man)and is not the head of state.

While it would seem to be optimal, that, the “pop. elected” person would “decide wars” (so following the will of the people) it has certainly not worked out that way! I think that the Founders wanted to keep control of the military in “civilian hands” (ie Congress?), but by making the President , the C IC, seem to have defeated their own purpose.(Hamilton, Fed.Papers No. 69)

If Bush is “listening to the generals on the ground”, it must be a confusing cacophony by now, as all the military lifers, for the most part, have resigned, or been let go,.

Article 1:( This is where Congress screwed up, in my opinion):

“Congress has several powers related to war and the armed forces. Under the War Powers Clause, only Congress may declare war, but in several cases it has, without declaring war, granted the President the authority to engage in military conflicts…..

...planning military strategy. Congress, pursuant the War Powers Act, must authorize any troop deployments more than 60 DAYS in length. Military spending and regulations are also governed by Congress, providing a check to presidential power. Along with the armed forces, foreign policy is also directed by the president, including the ability to negotiate treaties, which are ratified with the consent by two-thirds of the senate..”

STOP

This is what they say allows Bush to suspend Posse Comitatus Act (still, I cannot find anyone that says that “wartime” suspends these acts, and , gives the power to the executive.

“The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the United States National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act…..”

“The Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act substantially limit the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement
This marks the first time an active US Army unit will be given a dedicated assignment to NORTHCOM, where it is stated they may be “called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive (CBRNE) attack.” These soldiers will also learn how to use non-lethal weapons designed to “subdue unruly or dangerous individuals” without killing them, and also includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets[2].....

..This also demonstrates the possibility of utilizing federal troops for missions within the United States, essentially eliminating any recognition of Posse Comitatus.”


Some say that the Protect America Act suspends PC, but I dont see that it does. The Supreme Court has also upheld that it does not.

So where the hell is Congress?
..

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

Following the corpse lain trail of the Bush administration, it seems more planned than not. His record has an uncanny consistency, before being president to the present, so Bush has not fallen below his ability at failure. 

On paper, McCain and Palin are raving successes compared to Bush.  Palin will most likely be president,  hopefully Pailin’s god is not a hawk like Bush’s. Maybe Pailin can borrow the Popes god?

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

Leefeller, even though the world would come to a bloody end with McCain/Palin I suppose the many of us who survive who abhor their regime would retreat to the woods much in the way that Ray Bradbury’s folks did in Farenheit 451 and memorize books that the emperors would burn.  Course they would come after us with their automatic weapons and gun us all down.  Oh well I’d have a couple of good Umberto Eco books in my hand when I’m killed.

Aw, that is so melodramatic and besides Obama/Biden is going to win!

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By Leefeller, October 10, 2008 at 3:17 am Link to this comment

She

A flag waving parade going over the cliffs,  good little lemmings, cajoled by flag pins.  Inertia and peer pressure would force us to follow, we resist, to no avail or shall we prevail?

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By cyrena, October 9, 2008 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

“Well, I didn’t tell her that I personally didn’t care whether he was or not since I was an atheist, but I restrained myself thinking she could have apoplexy right in front of me and I wouldn’t want that to happen since I want to keep my job!”

~~~

Shenon…

I actually DID say/write this on another thread claiming Obama to be a Muslim. I said I didn’t care if he WAS a Muslim, (why would an athiest care?) but that I DID care about people LYING all of the damn time!! Why say something like that when it’s obviously not true? Well, to stir up shit on all ends. It pisses off some people, because it makes it sound like there’s something wrong with being a Muslim, and it pisses off others because it’s claiming him to be something he isn’t.

Now if I had *MY* way, it would be a REQUIREMENT for all presidents to be atheists. Then we could dispense with all of this stuff from these ancient books that everybody pays so much attention to. I just don’t get that. Nobody knows who wrote the bibles, or when they were written, or if any of it is true. Yet the stuff keeps coming up in conversations about elections, which have zero to do with whatever is in any of these ancient texts.

You should have let the other teacher have the fit, and blamed it on the weather.

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By wildflower, October 9, 2008 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

Speaking of persistent calamities, McCain’s energy expert goofed again today – and on an issue about “energy” of all things:

“At a townhall event in Wisconsin on Thursday, Palin was asked by a concerned questioner whether it was true that the United States was shipping 75 percent of its Alaskan oil overseas.

She responded by proclaiming it impossible, since Congress had put strict bans on the amount of oil and gas that America could export.

Not so. As the Associated Press reported:

. . . Congress has never imposed outright bans on oil exports. Congress prohibited exports of Alaska oil in 1973 when the Alaska oil pipeline was built. But that ban was lifted in 1996 when there were large volumes of Alaska oil coming down from the North Slope and U.S. demand was soft.

The Alaska ban has never been reinstated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/09/palin-stumped-again-on-he_n_133449.html

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2008 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

911truthdotorg and GW=MCHammered, Leefeller already alerted us to this latest Bush travesty. See the posts on this forum starting at October 8 at 12:21pm.  Just to let you know it wasn’t missed.  It is heartening to see others are alerted to this incredible violent act by the president. You are thanked too.  The so-called crowd control was really to frighten and hold hostage Congress in voting for the mortgage bailout.  He also found a YouTube link for a Naomi Wolf interview where she mentions this putsch of a sort that is worthwhile as a follow up that you might be interested in watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Now Bush, Paulson, and the Republican machine want “the government to mainline $300 billion more into banks in exchange for ownership interest in an effort to prop up confidence in the faltering financial system.  I don’t know if this is a good idea or not, but just how much money is left in this country?  1,000, one thousand billion dollars, or a trillion dollars of the nations capital is going to be tied up.  Meaning everything else is down the proverbial toilet.  Now you must know Bush wants to leave the crappiest state of affairs for the next president to figure out because it is so bad that anything done will not be enough and it will make Bush’s legacy not look so bad.  But guess what, no matter what, his is the worst administration this country has ever had.  His is pathetically a negative legacy.

What has Bush done to this country? Not only to this country, but the world, because as Wall Street goes, so goes the world.  They, the world financial institutions, are dropping like flies.  He ought to be impeached at the least.  All their policies can be daisychained to portray the horrible situation he has put us in and is leaving us in.  And yes, to whomever said it earlier, it is not the doings of one man, and while everybody knows the corporate world is in cahoots with Bush, the American people are complicit in their own political anguish.

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By kath cantarella, October 9, 2008 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reading this thread, it is interesting to note how many people actually take this ‘Wrath of God’ shit seriously.

What goes around comes around, treat your neighbour as you would like to be treated, and do what thou wilt but harm none. That pretty much covers it. You don’t need to spell it out in ten commandments because people should be able to think for themselves. That’s the problem with religion: if you spell it out, people don’t learn critical thinking.
Independent thought has not caused this mess, as Bob implies. But independent thought will repair it.

Take these guys for example:

http://www.rednecks4obama.com

Ha ha! It makes you all warm and fuzzy. Go rednecks!

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By 911truthdotorg, October 9, 2008 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

THIS is what’s next, sheeple!! Wake up and do something!!

Thousands of Troops Are Deployed on U.S. Streets Ready to Carry Out “Crowd Control”

http://www.alternet.org/story/101958/thousands_of_troops_are_deployed_on_u.s._streets_ready_to_carry_out_"crowd_control”/?page=entire

9/11 WAS an inside job…www.ae911truth.org

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By GW=MCHammered, October 9, 2008 at 6:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thousands of Troops Are Deployed on U.S. Streets Ready to Carry Out “Crowd Control”
By Naomi Wolf

I interviewed Vietnam veteran, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and patriot David Antoon for clarification:

“Who can arrest the President?”

“The Attorney General can arrest the President after he leaves or after impeachment.”

[Note: Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi has asserted it is possible for District Attorneys around the country to charge President Bush with murder if they represent districts where one or more military members who have been killed in Iraq formerly resided.]

“Given the danger do you advocate impeachment?”

“Yes. President Bush struck down Posse Comitatus—which has prevented, with a penalty of two years in prison, U.S. leaders since after the Civil War from sending military forces into our streets—with a ‘signing statement.’ He should be impeached immediately in a bipartisan process to prevent the use of military forces and mercenary forces against U.S. citizens”

http://www.alternet.org/rights/101958/thousands_of_troops_are_deployed_on_u.s._streets_ready_to_carry_out_"crowd_control”/

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By Virginia777, October 9, 2008 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

to: Fadel

This is so true!

“I am prepared to declare that we, the sheepish herd, are also guilty by silence or complicity.”

The weakness of the Left over the past 8 years (or more) needs to be recognized. I see it like a pasture where the shepherds were not guarding the sheep (well enough) from the wolves.

Granted, there have been a LOT of wolves running around!

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By Hammo, October 9, 2008 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Some unique angles about Obama and the presidential race include whether he is “American enough” and his mixed-ethnicity background.

The article below takes a fresh look at some of these topics:

“Obama’s Scottish, Cherokee ancestry has meaning”

Oct. 8, 2008

http://jointreconstudygroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/obamas-scottish-cherokee-ancestry-has.html

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2008 at 3:31 pm Link to this comment

If you can just get real for a moment, just a moment is all we ask…Obama is half white!  I claims him for da whitespeople.  Aren’t we so silly?  KDelphi has a good point about this sending from god business.  How about the people from Illinois and Texas, oh, oh…oh, yeah da beebles frum Amerika?  Dey be doin’ da send’n.

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By KDelphi, October 9, 2008 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

Is there any way that people could lay off of the Obama/Jesus/Moses kinds of stuff?

HOw can you criticizer bush for saying god sent him, and, in the same breath, claim that obama was “sent”?

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, October 9, 2008 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

But, TAO Walker, you scripted your comments on a computer and sent them, probably via the internet, which means connection, and you said you “rode by” a billboard sign in Montana.  So, at least, to some extent, you have bought in.  To what extent have you bought in? 

I agree with the spirit of what you say.  But, it seems, like you, we all “buy in” to the degree that we feel is justified when, in fact, to buy in to any extent is hypocritical.  This world is not all bad but finding a balance is not easy.  Bottom line is we’re all going to die.  I wouldn’t live like George Bush and his ilk.  While I wish he’d live more like I do, I can’t expect him or anyones else to do so.

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By ocjim, October 9, 2008 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

George W. Bush is indeed a plague. I always said he was sent as a plague when he speculated that God sent him. If you want to continue the Biblical analogy, then Obama is Moses who will deliver us. After Moses was not a white Charleton Heston he was black.

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2008 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment

I always appreciate a little bit of the truth as I think only a little bit, if any at all, is had by any one person.  What bothers me is those who may have a little bit of the truth often have the chafing habit of lumping all Americans into one lousy mess.

The reality is we are not all horses of the same stripe.  Also a horse confused as another is named a jackass.  There are those of us who do not feel “delivered,” many of us are whitefolk, and those who do are dragging the rest into the hell on earth, which is where it began and will end anyway. 

Reason, if it can even be called that, of the insane right, is like this:  Today, where I work, a public school in North Texas, another teacher was complaining about having to have come out of retirement because she didn’t have health insurance even though her husband worked for the same company for 35 years yet walked away without decent health insurance coverage and she wasn’t covered at all and had to pay something like $700 every two months for some insurance and still had to pay nearly a hundred dollars a visit plus what Medicare didn’t cover!  Then she had medicine costs on top of that.  When I said I hoped she learned from that to vote for the candidate who could give her a better chance at better health insurance, she said, “Oh no!  I couldn’t vote for a Muslim and one who would allow abortions!”  Well, that is just plain stupid and at least half wrong (as applaudably Obama is pro-choice).  I expressed my disbelief that Obama was a Muslim, and she argued that he was.  Well, I didn’t tell her that I personally didn’t care whether he was or not since I was an atheist, but I restrained myself thinking she could have apoplexy right in front of me and I wouldn’t want that to happen since I want to keep my job! Yet tomorrow I think I will remind her that her president wants to take her Medicare away from her.  Yes, we do what we have to do, and I thought there wasn’t anything more that could be done living in the racist redneck heartland that I do and I’d only be spiting my own self.  I said I thought she was wrong and walked away.  I may not be teaching there for very long.  And I now worry that my house will be burned down!

So Mr. Tao Walker, I am not in panicky despair since I am confident those like you will carry the ball a little farther than I can.

Unless you have some antivenom that could be aerial sprayed over all of Texas, I guess I’ll continue to do just what I can.  I do the hokeypokey and by the way, along with Sodium, I thank you too.

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By Sodium, October 9, 2008 at 11:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re:TAO Walker,October 9 at 9:45 am.

TAO Walker,

I salute the content of your post.It is full of wisdom for those who understand and appreciate the wisdom that stems from a tried mind and good heart.

I try NOT to miss reading your posts wherever I find
them because I have always learned from them,although
I am an old retired person and living in a voluntary
seclusion,due to poor health.I do see my children and my spouse of more than 40 years.And I will drag myself to vote on November 4,2008,regardless how physically bad I may feel.I do NOT trust absentee ballots. 

Thank you,TAO Walker,for the ENLIGHTENMENT and for a
GREAT POST,indeed…...

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By KDelphi, October 9, 2008 at 11:34 am Link to this comment

Jackson Browne, For America—

“As if I really didnt understand, that I was just another part of the plan..I went off seeking for the future, believeing in the motherland. From the comfort of a dreamer’s bbed, and safety of my own head,

I went off seeking for the future while other peopel fought and bled..

I was made for America
I have prayed for America

I cant let go till she comes ‘round
By the dawn’s early light
By all I know is right
We’re gonna reap what we have sown”

“Till the land of the free, Is the way it should be

Till her conscience can be found”

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