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|  You’re No Harry Truman, GovernorPosted on Oct 2, 2008
He was boring. She was vapid. They were a perfect couple for the one and only 2008 vice presidential debate. Gov. Sarah Palin survived, much to the disappointment of Democrats who hoped she would crumble as she did in her interview with CBS anchor Katie Couric. But she ducked tough questions, gave canned answers, tried to smile her way out of tough spots and cheerfully distorted Sen. Barack Obama’s record. Sen. Joseph Biden was, of course, better prepared. All those years in the Senate taught him something. What a creature of the Senate he was, working his way through the details of his legislative record, even invoking the name of a long departed hero, Sen. Mike Mansfield, who gave him advice he never forgot. Even if it was hard for listeners to concentrate on everything he said, the man knew what he was talking about. In the contest for who was best qualified to be president, Biden won by a landside. In the contest for who won the debate, Palin illustrated a lesson that Willy Loman learned in Arthur Miller’s old play, “Death of a Salesman”: It takes more than a smile and a shoeshine to be successful. She couldn’t smile her way out of trying to explain what Sen. John McCain would do about the financial crisis that is dragging the country down. Instead, she relied on anecdotes and folksy examples. She described how she and her husband, Todd (the “First Dude” of Alaska), would sit around and talk about how government is not the solution for the troubles of the middle class. She blamed “corruption and greed and Wall Street” for the nation’s troubles and wrapped herself in the mantle of First Mom. “I think a good barometer here, as we try to figure out, ‘Has this been a good time or a bad time in America’s economy?’ is go to a kids’ soccer game on Saturday and turn to any parent there on the sideline and ask them, ‘How are you feeling about the economy?’ ” Palin said. “And I’ll betcha you’re going to hear some fear in that parent’s voice.” That’s not a helpful answer, Governor, and by the way we all noticed the lakefront house you and Todd have up in Alaska when Charlie Gibson interviewed you there. Pretty nice, especially with Todd’s airplane parked out back. Palin was a total wild card. Nothing Biden said had any impact on her. She treated him graciously, as if he were an odd but pleasant newcomer to Wasilla, having just moved there from the lower 48. He showed she was often factually wrong, but she ignored him with a smile. Finally, he was reduced to repeating his points. “Let me say it again,” he said on a couple of occasions. She was a difficult opponent for Biden, who rose through Delaware politics and the Senate, where discussion and debate are conducted in the back-and-forth manner of traditional politics. Biden seemed to practice the art of brevity Thursday night. In an effort to tone down his sometimes ungovernable enthusiasm, he was often plodding. But he was loaded with facts. In response to Palin’s touting of alternative energy, Biden said McCain had voted 10 times against such proposals. Biden went into a lengthy explanation of Obama’s votes on Iraq. “Your plan is a white flag,” Palin said. After a while, though, smiles and cutting lines annoy or even bore an audience. Biden slogged along, one fact after another, treating his foe with congenial respect. He knew more than she did but didn’t make a big thing of it. That was all he had to do. The main purpose of the debate was to show the American people who would be best qualified to take over if the president died. Palin likes to cite the example of Harry Truman, who was a farmer and an unsuccessful haberdasher before going into politics and becoming president after Franklin Roosevelt’s death. But Truman was an accomplished senator before Roosevelt chose him to be vice president. He was the nationally known chairman of a committee which unearthed corruption by World War II contractors.
Palin showed she could get through a debate without being rattled, after days of preparation in McCain’s house in Arizona. That’s all she showed. Aside from sharing small-town roots, Sarah Palin is no Harry Truman.
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By wholesale air jordan, November 19 at 5:49 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I have visited most of the sites you posted. good articles.
Report thisBy wholesale air jordan, November 19 at 5:47 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Scapegoating Nader for this mess is plain nonsense. It is also rhetoric to claim a vote for Nader is a vote for McCain. Claiming that is like claiming a vote for Kerry in 2004, was a vote for Bush, since Kerry caved regarding the recount. A vote for Nader, is a vote for Nader - that’s it.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 10 at 3:28 am #
The Gloves are Off!
Even so-called watchdog advocacy groups lie for their own pocketbooks! For a price, the guard dog will be an advocate - Citizens Against Government Waste made a name for itself by exposing government waste. But it has quietly, secretly, made a lot of its money by lobbying. The St. Petersburg Times reported in April 2006. This is the group that gives McCain high marks. Citizens Against Government Waste, CAGW, did not reveal what motivated the aggressive campaign to support avocados from Mexico.: It had received about $100,000 from Mexican avocado growers. Then CAGW took at least $245,000 from tobacco companies while urging the federal government not to regulate tobacco and to drop a lawsuit against the industry. What kind of hypocrisy are we going to allow?
Then NPR has joined hands with CIR to give a more truthful reporting: This story is headlined today at the website noted above in Will Evans ETOG article: New Group Tied To Oil Industry Runs Ads Promoting Drilling, Attacking Democrat.
The deception foisted onto the American public is criminal. Passing spurious charges as fact is fraudulent. That kind of trickery is the now the identifying mark of McCain/Palin.
For a better America, vote Obama/Biden.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 10 at 1:16 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Folktruther—Re AIPAC, better watch out. Your posts might encourage anyone slightly more paranoid than me to think maybe AIPAC is needed. I do support the American Jewish Congress (one of the signers of a letter circulated to protest accusations that Obama was a Moslem and therefore unfit to run). I also work for Honest Reporting (you can check their site anytime), which calls attention to doctored photos and video as well as inaccurate reporting re Israel. They routinely, though it’s always a major effort, get retractions from the likes of BBC, Agence France Presse, Reuters, CBC, even Al Jazeera and others—though of course the retractions are buried in the pages and not as prominent as the original article or film. But it’s better than nothing.
Re Likud and particularly Netanyahu who is powerful and therefore most dangerous, I believe he/they are beyond unfair to the Palestinians and dangerous to Israel. Not that it’s any of your business, but I do oppose them in Israel and elsewhere, publically and otherwise, in ways that I think are most effective.
Telling Inherit The Wind that distaste is not enough but hatred is required is not only presumptuous but stupid. In some circles expressions of distaste are lethal.
We all know what you are against—Israel. But what, outside of the Middle East, are you for? Not some ideal, just something that is possible and right for this country, for its own peoples’ good?
Lots of people who like Israel are not Zionist warmongers. Biden is not a warmonger, and has done many investigations, suggested many policies regarding many countries. That’s his job. Senate Foreign Relations Commmittee.
Did you ever read any of Oriana Fallaci’s work? Mostly ‘60s-90s political reportage? Novel about her husband who was executed by Greek fascists, “Inshallah” about Beirut during Lebanon’s civil war? Her last book, “Force of Reason,” opposes Islamic culture’s growing influence in Europe. Last spring, wandered into a bookstore on San Francisco’s Haight Street and asked if they had a copy, as it wasn’t on the shelves. They guy said, “We won’t carry anything Oriana Fallaci writes.” Sarah Palin TRIES to ban books but a big store in famously tolerant San Francisco commercially bans a Fallaci book. Something is wrong here.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 9 at 11:16 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Shenonymous—I’m disappointed to hear about the male dophins’ swaggering behavior—they’re supposed to one of the more intelligent species, but then, so are we. I still have high hopes for the intelligence of pigs and dogs, or did until our old Boston terrier fell in love with a potbellied pig who lives on the next farm, who returned his interest, and they used to roam about together—maybe because they were both black and white, stubby and small? When they actually attempted to Get Together in the middle of the dirt road, they discovered their differences and took off running in opposite directions. He never was quite the same. Among humans, swaggering is definitely the dominant paradigm. Unhelpful in the extreme, but that’s the reality.
You teach K thru 12? That’s unusual; sounds interesting, rewarding, a little scary because of the responsibility. You watch and help shape those minds develop, not as parent but as mentor which is probably more influential. A consistent relationship with a kid could enlarge her/his potential for curiousity, exploring without being terrified of being wrong, i.e. learning how to think (an endangered art, no?).
If people contemplated—or even simply understood—the depth of the universe’s indifference and coldness, they would stop wasting time, behave rationally, have more fun, exercise compassion, and use all of the things people are capable of—creativity, writing and/or reading, music, art, passion, enjoyment of the cold old universe’s better side (animals, wilderness, solitude, dark nights,). They’d also fund more “pure” scientific research, biomedical, biotech ... But instead we have politicians and religion and people baying for money then spending it stupidly while 3% of world’s population consume 75% of its resources. I don’t know WHY people prefer to not look at things as they are, just that they’d feel so much better if they did. Religion is a huge stumbling block. It’s not the stories we tell each other—which in themselves are interesting and culturally revealing—but because it, and its offshoots such as various mystical and supernatural beliefs, veil reality, turn out the light and leave us groping stupidly in the dark. Speaking of which, there are disturbing reports of Palin audiences crying out things like “Treason!” “Kill him!” in the middle of sunny days in country fair-like settings. At what point does campaign-as-demagoguery become un-American enough to merit a fatwa? A gentle refined Iranian woman—aquaintance, not friend—suggested to me today that American men liked Palin’s “tits”, someone should shoot SP, that she was afraid to go back to Iran to visit family because of the “lunatic” running the country, and would we have a revolution if Palin became President? (My responses were “maybe”, “maybe”, “sorry”, and “I don’t know, I doubt it, but it’s worth considering.")
I hate to admit it, but in his biography of Mohammed, the French historian Maxime Rodinson said that Mohammed, in his days as a camel driver, was initially offended by some Jews in Medina: he walked up to them, told them he was the prophet of the one true god—and they laughed at him. Big mistake. Later, when he got his groove and enough followers, he slaughtered them all and went looking for more. That made me wonder briefly whether a modicum of sensitivity or just politeness 700 years ago might have prevented a lot of bloodshed, but decided probably not. Tribal history before and since that Medina moment has been full of harsh words and soft, lies and truth, but the only constant has been the blood-letting. Not just the Semites but the other tribes, Angles, Saxons, Normans, Gauls, etc etc. One day, my daughter-in-law was running her finger over one of our bookshelves, stopped at “Dark Continent” by Eric Mazower, leafed through it and said (pleased), “Oh—this isn’t about Africa. He’s writing about Europe.”
Report thisBy Folktruther, October 9 at 9:41 pm #
A two state solution, Inherit, which was once the obvious historical solution, is less possible with every passing day. And since Aipac et al funds and medias the pols of both parties, the US will continue to help prevent it. Distaste for Aipac isn’t good enough, Ihherit. I’m talking hatred here. Or at least public opposition.
Of course that doesn’t mean you should follow my lead politically. Why should you, no one else does. If you, in your ignorance, think a two state solution still viable, then support it. But not without acknowledging the Israli opppression of the Palestinians.
And if you can’t stay awake at night worrying about my opinion of your posts, then get an alarm clock. That’s what they’re for.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 9 at 5:14 pm #
Hey FolkTruther,
Bad news: I don’t stay up nights worrying whether you think my posts have “improved”
You don’t get to decide that my distaste for AIPAC and Likud means I MUST follow your lead. Even though I’m a lout, I’m fully capable of thinking for myself, and try to do it whenever I have a spare moment. So I’ll decide for myself who I’ll support in Israel.
BTW, you are so blatantly wrong about the 2 state solution, if your goal is to allow Israel to survive. If your goal is to destroy Israel then insist on a one-state solution and the right of return. That’s because Israel will NEVER willingly commit suicide. There will only be a one-state solution if Israel is defeated militarily. Then there will be another holocaust.
OTOH, if there’s a two-state solution and the hot-heads are shut down, the possibility of economic ties open up. It can take 50 years, like Europe, for effective barriers to fall, but what’s 50 years if it’s 50 years of peace?
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 9 at 2:16 pm #
Folksytruther, maybe he was sucking power through a straw? Kuhn gave the word paradigm its modern meaning but later preferred other terms like exemplar or normal science. I don’t know about his dismay with New Agers commandeering the word. I happen to take its meaning as groupthink where members arrive at a consensus without evaluating ideas. This is usually motivated by a desire to not be seen as foolish. Often hasty and irrational choices are made because the dominant paradigm instructs to repress independent critical thinking. I didn’t really care if anybody thought I made an anti-Israeli remark, just thought I’d help out those who thought so since there are those who love to call others anti-Semites (even though the Jews aren’t the only ones to be identified as Semites). It is obvious I don’t really care about them, the Islamists, the Christian right, and you.
Sepharad, seems like the Romans demolished and devoured much of the world, and yes damn their souls, or whatevers, since I don’t believe in souls or hell. I don’t know exactly what I’m saying there. Just a curse expression. I couldn’t agree with you more that almost all war is stupid. I would go so far as to say, all war is stupid. At least the waging of it. The universe is hostile enough a place as you remind us. Don’t you think though that most people hardly think about the stark harshness of the universe? If there would be only one evil culture that is enough to ruin the world. As a historian, you also know that war is in the genes of men. I see it in young boys where I now teach and since I teach all grades pre-K through 12, I see it as it develops from the youngest to the ones ready to take that leap into the world of adults. Boys will out of the blue go up and push or shove or bang on another boy for no rational reason. Not rational since I have questioned them on this several times, and this is so in various age groups. A niece of mine noted to me once that “young men aren’t the only ones who act macho? Male river-dolphins will “punch” their friends, grab branches and wave them, and toss turtles in the air. They’re not fighting and there aren’t any females around. They’re just trying to impress each other, the dolphin version of swaggering. According to scientists, they’re the only animals that act the same way humans do in this aspect.” There is a lot of swaggering that goes on in politics everywhere in the world today. I think it is more serious than machoism. On Truthdig though, it is just the dominant paradigm.
Report thisBy Folktruther, October 9 at 9:57 am #
Inherit, for a Zionist lout your posts seem to be getting better lately. Are you feeling alright?
A two-state solution would have been possible after the 1967 war, but now is too late. It was the obvious historical solution but Israel banned the Palestinian flag and began its repression. Now, only the US could broker it and, under either new president, it obviously is not going to.
Ihnerit, Sepharad, if you are against Aipac, et al Likud strategy you can’t keep it a secret. You have to openly attack them. and Zionist warmongers like Biden as well.
Dr Shenonymous, you are my favorite Learned. Just reading your posts brightens my day. I loved your assertion that your comment that Israeli oppression of the Palestians has no acceptable justification and this might lead some to think this an anti-Israel remark. Well yes, it might.
But soldier on. After all, not all the Educated are radical enough to hang the slogan on their office wall, SUBVERT THE DOMINANT PARADIGM. Really rad.
The term ‘paradigm’ comes from Thomas Kuhn’s influential essay THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS. He was horrified when the New Agers took it over and he repudiated it. Serves the power sucking son of a bachelor right.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 8 at 11:05 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
SHENONYMOUS,
Yeah, anti-Semitism among Moslems has always been different than with Christians. But in later years, it’s been kind of mixed up with the Islamists taking up the whole Protocols of the Elders of Zion thing. I think European-style anti-Semitism came to the Middle East with the British and WWI, but doubt it was sooner. Euros have been fascinated with the Islamic world for centuries, but only the Turks have been equally curious about Europeans for centuries, not just their useful gunpowder and trading possibilities but the differentness of European culture. (Western music was never favored by the Ottomans, but they certainly were adopting a lot of everything else.)
The primary accepted usage of the term anti-Semitism itself as described in Websters’ III ed. is crazily inaccurate, as the Arabs are also Semites. If we Jews hadn’t been so stubborn and stiff-necked the Romans, damn their souls, might not have gone berserk and attempted ethnic cleansing, and there would not have been such a definite diaspora and all its effects. It would have been much longer before Jews became more Occidental than Oriental, probably around the time of Al Andalus and picking up on the Greeks etc. The degree of difference is an accident of history, probably all to the good, but who ever really knows?
Over our piano there is a beautiful photograph hanging, taken by one of my Israeli cousins when she and her husband were camping in the Sinai. At sunset the cliffs were mirrored in the sand, and there are visible large markings, a language of some sort, also mirrored. It’s not Hebrew or Arabic or Aramaic lettering, so we took it over to the linguists at Berkeley who couldn’t put a name to it but said it was some proto-Semitic language. Beautiful photo, reds, sands, siennas, but we don’t know what it really says. For years it’s been kind of a family pasttime to hazard guesses, like “Nebuchannezar Sucks” or “Meet me at the Wadi”. Of course I’m entirely aware of the vast gulf between Arabs and Jews that exists today, and I’m not off in la-la-land, but anti-this or anti-that is just stupid, in the same way that most --- not all—wars that’ve ever been are stupid. The universe is a cold, cold place, there are plenty of life or death battles with the physical world to engage, disease, drought, you name it the universe is ready to kill us without even noticing. So why are we continually trying to cheat or massacre or screw up our own clever and inventive species? There are evil individuals, for sure, but not evil races or cultures—well, not many anyway. I hate waste, and that’s exactly what we’re doing, wasting time and lives and potential and somehow there never seems to be a choice. This is so unintellectual I can’t believe I’m writing it and probably shouldn’t post it, but what the hell, why not?
I’ll go back to being a historian and researcher and advocate and objective digger tomorrow. Not to worry.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 8 at 10:09 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
INHERIT THE WIND—In my Oct. 7 9:26 post I didn’t say I thought Israel had just as fucked up a government as we do. (Where did that quote come from?) But I actually agree with it, even if I didn’t say it. The difference is that the Israeli people have much more control over getting the government in that reflects what they want. Problem is Israelis are so diverse that it’s hard to get the exact coalition right. Others would have other opinions, but I think the worst problem we have are a bunch of religious fundamentalists combined with a rightwing that together can wield a lot of power. It takes someone like a Sharon who can hold them off while he tries to do something useful. Losing him at that particular juncture was a piece of bad luck. Corruption indictment or not, no way would Olmert step down if he hadn’t allowed his generals to screw up the war so badly. If the Lebanon War had gone well he wouldn’t even THINK of stepping down. Israelis take it really personally when their kids’ lives are thrown away, even if they don’t agree about anything else. I do think if Tzipi Livni can get a decent coalition government, enough to avoid a national election that might give Netanyahu another crack at wrecking the country, their government will be in better shape than ours has any prospect of becoming.
Red diaper baby = either 1)Mommy was a Commie, (mine tore up her card, they tell me, when Stalin signed nonaggression pact with Hitler) or 2)grew up in Levvitown social experiment (friends who did say it made a kibbutz seem luxurious and diverse). My parents were not doctrinaire ideologues, just working-middle-class way-left Democrats who read a lot, believed in Marxist socialism and liked the Marx brothers, classical music and show tunes, and were interested in people based on character, not skin color or religion. They didn’t TALK to us about what was right or wrong, just had friends of various hues in and out of the house, loved Lincoln and Roosevelt and Israel (could be fierce on that subject; there was always a map of Israel up in the kitchen with thumbtacks marking progress of battles, whereabouts of relatives) and the Kennedy boys. Didn’t bat an eyelash when I married a non-Jew as true love was involved—but if he hadn’t been smart, THAT would have been a problem. They worried that there might not be decent doctors and schools west of the Mississippi, certainly not as far west as his native Berkeley. Luckily my cousin working for NASA in Ames personally assured them that Bay Area medics were adequate and the people generally civilized. But they didn’t really feel better until they came out here to see for themselves. I still don’t understand why they felt Israel was safer than the American west. People out here weren’t shooting at each other in an organized way.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 8 at 6:22 pm #
Yeah, PatrickHenry, neither do little fish, nor big fish. Nukers are best seen as peanuts and nuts. Let’s say that Pakistan is a nuking peanut, India a big nut, China a big nut, Israel is a middle-size nuclear nut, and the United States, Great Britain, France, are super big nuking nuts. Oh yeah, and Russia, a super big nut. Have I left anybody out? How about nuking nuts wannabes: North Korea and Iran?
Thank you Sepharad I always learn something from your comments. I keep a copy of all my posts and in checking I find that I am uncertain what you meant by your comment “based on [my] earlier posts over the past year or so” with respect to anti-Semitism. A careful reading would show I have not expressed hostility towards or had any prejudice against Jews. Nor Islamists for that matter. I may have commented that the oppression of Palestinians has no acceptable justification and some might erroneously think that an anti-Israeli remark. And I am sure I have said something about the factor of religion being a catastrophic deterrent to peace regardless of which one it is.
Yes there should be two separate states Israel and Palestine, which is what I meant to make clear but have not due to distractions. As I read Jewish history and Islamic history it strikes me it has been an interminable series of miserable conflict. As such I did a cursory search on antisemitism in Islam. The following are my brief verbatim findings:
The nature and extent of antisemitism in Islam and the Muslim world are hotly-debated issues in contemporary Middle East politics, with various scholars viewing the issues in differing ways:
*Scholars like Claude Cahen and Shelomo Dov Goitein deny the existence of antisemitism in Muslim lands, on the basis that any discrimination which was practiced against non-Muslims was of general nature, and not directed specifically at Jews. For these scholars, antisemitism in Medieval Islam was local and sporadic rather than general and endemic. For Goitein antisemitism was not present at all, and for Cahen it was rarely present.
*According to Bernard Lewis, while Muslims held negative stereotypes regarding Jews, these stereotypes were not indicative of antisemitism because, unlike Christians, Muslims viewed Jews as objects of ridicule, not fear, as Muslims did not attribute “cosmic evil” to Jews. In Lewis’ view, it was only in the late nineteenth century that movements first appeared among Muslims that can legitimately be described as antisemitic.
*Frederick M. Schweitzer and Marvin Perry state that there are mostly negative references to Jews in the Qur’an and Hadith, and that Islamic regimes treated Jews in degrading ways. Jews (and Christians) had the status of dhimmis. They state that throughout much of history Christians treated Jews worse, saying that Jews in Christian lands were subjected to worse polemics, persecutions and massacres than under Muslim rule.
*According to Walter Laqueur, the varying interpretations of the Qur’an is important to Muslim attitudes. Many Quranic verses preach tolerance towards the Jews; others make hostile remarks about them (which are similar to hostile remarks made against those who didn’t accept Islam); still another promises Jerusalem to the Jews. The Islamic prophet Muhammad interacted with Jews that lived in Arabia: he preached to them in hopes of conversion, he fought against and killed many Jews, while he made friends with other Jews.
*For Martin Kramer, the idea that contemporary antisemitism by Muslims is authentically Islamic “touches on some truths, yet it misses many others”. Kramer believes that contemporary antisemitism is due only partially to Israeli policies, about which Muslims may have a deep sense of injustice and loss. But Kramer attributes the primary causes of Muslim antisemitism to modern European ideologies, which have infected the Muslim world.
Report thisReference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism
By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:53 pm #
PatrickHenry, October 8 at 5:32 pm #
By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:07 pm #
1. I don’t trust either.
*******************************************
I never would have guessed! (me neither!)
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2. Sun Tsu was Palestinian?
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Yeah. From the distant Palestinian branch of Far, Far Away...in the Warring States period of Palestinian history--about 1000 years before Mohammed, even before the Roman Empire.
3. The people have gotten soft. When you start a war you got to have committment. Nothing like a bunch of weekend warriors half assing a military operation.
******************************************
There’s always the nukes.....
Report thisBy PatrickHenry, October 8 at 5:32 pm #
By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:07 pm #
1. I don’t trust either.
2. Sun Tsu was Palestinian?
3. The people have gotten soft. When you start a war you got to have committment. Nothing like a bunch of weekend warriors half assing a military operation.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:07 pm #
PatrickHenry, October 8 at 3:38 pm #
By Shenonymous, October 8 at 1:58 pm #
In the big fish, little fish world the fish in the middle rarely has a nuke.
***************************************
Gotta go with what you have! Tell me, who do you trust more with a nuke: Israel or Pakistan? Both have them.
***************************************
By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 1:38 pm #
The Saladin way was 1) set 1/3 free, 2} cut off the hand or 1/3 which raised the sword against me and 3) behead 1/3.
It sent a clear message.
*******************************************
So, PH, you’re suggesting that the Israels give 1/3 of the Palestinians total freedom, cut the hands off 1/3 of the Palestinians, and cut the heads of 1/3 of the Palestinians??????????????????????????
Kill 1 million Palestinians? That would be a worse genocide than Rwanda. In fact, it would be the STUPIDEST thing Israel could do!
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By Sepharad, October 7 at 9:26 pm #
Thank you, I believe Israel has just as fucked up government as we presently do.
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I actually agree with that. The invasion of Lebanon was so fucked up I suspected the Bush White House was doing the planning for them--Israel has NEVER fucked up a military operation that badly!
Ohlmert is an incompetent twit--just like Georgie.
Hopefully, Lippi will be able to form a strong government without “What-a-Yahoo” and his religo-fascist pals.
Sepharad, I’m confused...Red used to mean Marxist, now it means Republican and Blue meant American and now means Democrats! Not really a RDB, more like pink or orange diapers (Actually, more yellow and brown...I’ve changed enough for my own kids--PEE-YOOO!!! )
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 8 at 4:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
SHENONYMOUS, I’m sorry if I erred lumping you in with anti-Semites, based on some of your earlier posts over the past year or so. What you are saying now I agree with, except that, as ITW says, there has to be a second-state, not a single one, given centuries of history where Jews & Moslems lived together but the Jews always as second-class citizens, dhimmi’hood, and that even with a mensch like Saladin. (Jews were not allowed to ride horses in his day, only mules, but Saladin made sure that Maimonides had the best white mule in the country. That’s not good enough anymore.) Fadel has suggested that dhimmihood might not be a requirement in these more enlightened times, but I wouldn’t count on that. Also there are real extremists on both sides, the demographics being what they are it could become a final massacre. The economic bridge and education are the only way to get to peace and justice for everyone, and both sides have to slap down their extremists before there’s no need for a wall. But I do think the land on the east side of the wall should be returned to the Palestinians, along with economic growth, education and mutual cooperation. I really do see the possibility of a new Levantine region that would enrich all oil-free Arab states and the Jewish state. But a lot has to change first, Israel has to take the first step and the Palestinians have to take the second. I’ll be in Israel Thanksgiving week but doubt I’ll learn anything I couldn’t learn long distance; just miss the land and people. We’ve been saving for this trip a couple years, husband’s small out-of-our-house business slows down a lot that week, and the horses out back will appreciate the break.
Folktruther—Olmert IS a Zionist. (They come in all flavors.)
ITW—Sounds like we both were red-diaper babies. The other RDBs I’m still in touch with have also turned out agnostic.
OUTRAGED, my “snap decision” was a moment of anger, and re the bailout (which has already paid $440,000+ to stressed AIG executives for an 8-day corporate retreat yet apparently done nothing to stop the downward spiral), I have to say I’m way over my head and do not understand the intricacies of international economic workings except that somehow the same individuals and coupon-clipping classes invariably emerge on top, and that for the worst profiteers national boundaries seem to be irrelevant and national loyalties nonexistent. I don’t think Obama will be much of a reformer in any respect, especially after watching him twist arms in the Black Caucus to put the bailout over the top. Even so, he’d be better navigating this country through JACKPINE’s “end of empire” mode than either McCain or Nader. Nader has better, clearer ideals than either candidate on specific issues—but in all these years, with all his support, he’s been unable to organize a party that could get him on a three-way primary circuit where that 40% leverage could materially alter the Democratic platform or get the nomination himself. Obama, for instance, should not have been able to reject him as he did this time for being “too obstinate,” unless he was ready to lose a lot of votes. That was a bad call on Obama’s part: there are departments and agencies where obstinate, strong, uncompromising leadership is the only kind that will make a difference fast enough. Interior or EPA, e.g. But steering a whole country through the kind of cataclysm we may be looking at requires a broader skill set.
Report thisBy PatrickHenry, October 8 at 3:38 pm #
By Shenonymous, October 8 at 1:58 pm #
In the big fish, little fish world the fish in the middle rarely has a nuke.
By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 1:38 pm #
The Saladin way was 1) set 1/3 free, 2} cut off the hand or 1/3 which raised the sword against me and 3) behead 1/3.
It sent a clear message.
By Sepharad, October 7 at 9:26 pm #
Thank you, I believe Israel has just as fucked up government as we presently do.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 8 at 1:58 pm #
There is oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis. However, in the bigger picture, Israel is threatened by the entire Arab coalition. It’s like the small peanut being threatened by the middle sized nut being threatened by the giant nut. It is like a food chain. Others (the West, headed by the US) found it advantageous to help the middle group (Israel) not get eaten up, and the giant (the Arab nations in unison: Syria, Jordan, Iran, et al) in their Islamic imperialist jihadist West-hating and jealous mind set helps the small group (Palestine) from becoming peanut butter. Folktruther does not read well, and reinterprets what little he does get. There is Zionism and there is Islamism. Both insanities. Equally insane.
With respect to the nasty condition of the world, beginning right at home, deregulation is one of the worst offenses along with many other power and greed deceits and its designers are the human vermin that found the way to force these strategies onto the unsuspecting public. If these treacherous victimizers were not Jews, or Muslims, they were right-wing Christians supported by the silent rest of the Christian world. The prescient dissenters just did not have either a loud enough voice nor a more seductive message. By the way, there are many rich Muslims in the United States, try Las Vegas for those cartels. It is surprising how much money the Arabs have in the United States. What are they doing to stop the quasi-religious wars Middle Eastern wars? Divine causes are the biggest frauds perpetrated on the human race. Eventually the world will catch on and religions will all but disappear. Then you might have a chance at world peace.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 1:38 pm #
Although more personally congenial than Inherit, an obvious lout, she is, like Inherit, bascially for the oppression of the Arabs under the guise of supporting a two state solution.
***************************************
I didn’t know that. You could have at least had the decency to call me a subtle lout.
I also didn’t know I was for the oppression of the Arabs. I certainly didn’t think I was. But I guess you can read my mind and my subconscious because your Marxist theology tells you automatically what I MUST be thinking if I disagree with you. It’s all based on Marxist “science”. (which is about as reputable as “Creation science").
Since I’m a lout, I am pretty simple. I believe that Sun-Tzu was right: You have 2 choices of what to do with an enemy when you have defeated him:
1) You pick him up, dust him off, offer him a chance to build a new life and prosper along with you.
or
2) You kill him and all his fellows.
EVERYTHING I’ve said and posted shows I’m for 1) not 2).
I’m too much of a lout to see some third alternative, where you do neither 1) nor 2), but I KNOW it’s not VolksVeher’s choice.
3) ------------------------------------
His is the fourth alternative
4) The victors out of remorse for having defeated their mortal enemies who tried repeatedly to destroy them, all fall on their swords and turn over their nation, their property and their families to the losers, allowing the losers to actually achieve their objective.
Tell you what, Volkisch: When YOU are the victor YOU can practice 4)
Report thisBy Folktruther, October 8 at 8:02 am #
Outraged, I don’t think Sepharad is making the US and the world a better place. On the contrary. Although more personally congenial than Inherit, an obvious lout, she is, like Inherit, bascially for the oppression of the Arabs under the guise of supporting a two state solution. Just like Israeli leaders, who during the Oslo Accords increased enormously the Jewish settlers on Palestinian land.
The Zionist leaders are not serious about a two state solution. They keep it as a talking point while starving and killing Palesitian men, women and children, blowing up their houses, torturing them as prisoners, stealing their taxes, stealing their water, not recognizing or negotiating with their elected leaders, keeping the whole population under community arrest, and offering them as a “State” a collection of Bantustans isolated from each other and incapahle of viablity.
But the Zionist viewpoint controls the media, both the Progressive and Conservative media, including the criticism of the media that Sepharad worked on, since this criticism has some of the same presuppositions of the media that it criticizes.
This media is used to delude people like Dr Shenonymous, a highly Educated truther. She goes even farther than Sepharad, who claims that it is not really Israel that is oppressing the Palestinians. Dr S believes that Israel is the underdog and that the Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. therefore they are not displacing the Arags or stealing their homeland.
And because the learned and especially the mass media is pro-Zionist, people believe sinceerely stuff like this.
This is the worst aspect of Zionism, and has far more oppressive world features tnan even the horrifying Israeli oppression. Zionists of both the Dems and Gops favor war and oppression if it supports or dovetails with the Likud policies of Aipac, like the Iraqi war or the threats to attack Iran.
Including thermonuclear war, which would increase the military power of the nuclear powers like Israel and the US. And they are for ripping off the American people, as they do the Palestinian people, just as Sepharad was for this trillion dollar swindle.
What James Petras calls the ‘Zionist power configuration’ is far more poisonous in its world implications than its institutionalized brutality to Arabs. It has hijacked not only US foreign policy but domestic policy as well, and is instrumental in imposing a police state to implement its policies. The thought control bill that would threaten and restrict the Internet was initiated by Jane Harman as part of a Zionist ploy, and passed the house by a vote of 400-6. It will probably be implemented after the election. No matter who is elected.
Zionism is the central ideological tenet, along with unregulated Free Interprise, and the need to deceive the people, that unites the Gop neocons and the Dem neolibs. Sepharad is quite effective in promoting it, but not for making the world a better place.
Report thisBy Leefeller, October 8 at 7:24 am #
ITW,
You say you are a devout agnostic? Having trouble with the “devout” part, connecting the two words seems disturbing to me, unlike bacon and eggs, there is a disconnect, it would be as if I described myself as a raging dove, if I am a dove.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 6:58 am #
Shenonymous:
You may not believe this (Sepharad will) but I agree with you on EVERY SINGLE THING, but one. I think a two-state solution is needed, because Jews and Palestinians sharing Israel won’t work. A two-state solution will allow tempers to cool, and eventually economic cooperation to take place.
Economics is the real key to peace, if only you can keep the religious nuts suppressed and out of politics: Jew, Moslem, Christian--all of ‘em. So you need a way to START that economic bridge. When you have it, the reason for Sharon’s Wall and the other barriers will drop. But until then, you need a 2-state solution.
BTW, I’m a devout Agnostic, myself. I see Atheism as cynicism, but Agnosticism as skepticism.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 7 at 11:28 pm #
I’m sorry Sepharad that you think I am anti-Semite. My Jewish friends would thoroughly disagree with you. And my Arab friends would not call me Islamophobic. However, having once been Christian, I would say I am somewhat anti-Christian after seeing the iniquities done in their god’s name. I am an absolute atheist and find all religions to be excessively irrational. That doesn’t mean I am not humanistic, And I don’t live under a rock. I have stated several times my belief that a shared state between Israel and Palestine is the only solution to the ancient problem between the Israelis and the Arabs. I think it is no longer relevant who should or should not be there.
As a people, the Israelis have as much history as do the Palestinians in that region and the fact that the state of Israel was created in 1948 only came after having lived in that area for thousands of years. And the State of Israel was created with the help of the West because of the strategic Suez Canal and the perceived commercial and military advantage to the West.
But Israel’s existence does not preclude that historically the Arabs lived in that region also. Your succinct historical account of Jerusalem and the problems among the peoples there is correct. I have made a study of the Jews and Islam for the past year and am beginning to understand what it is about. It is about more than religion although religion is used to justify the continued ghastly conflict. Just as in every such struggle it is about power, control, and greed. From a non-religious viewpoint, Israel is the underdog. However they have powerful allies, the United States being one of them, and the United States has a lot of wealthy Jews who push the US government to support Israel. Not that Israel doesn’t need support in the face of the Arab/Islamic coalition who also have their allies. Peace has been a condition there but it has been sporadic over the three to four millennia that these factions have inhabited that area. But peace today seems almost insurmountable given the radical Islamic and the radical Zionist postures. It is not a simple matter. A microcosm of that conflict exists right here on the Truthdig forums although it takes the form of verbal exchange. The paradigms are obvious. But those of us who are not involved in that conflict occasionally express our views. I don’t think there is any more or less anti-Semitism in the world than there ever has been. There is arising anti-Islamism as well, some of which is deserved because of the imperialist intentions, which Israel does not have. But there are millions of non-militant Islamists in the world. If the anti-Semites are coming out from under their rocks, the Islamophobics are slithering out as well!
And the Christians are not helping matters. It looks to me as if they are hoping to cash in on the Israeli/Arab conflict. Even going so far as to foment even more animosity between Israel and the Arab nations. Kill two birds with one stone kind of thing.
Report thisBy Outraged, October 7 at 10:22 pm #
Re: Shenonymous
From CNN (Lou Dobbs):
”RALPH NADER, (I) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bring them home. A six month negotiated withdrawal deadline. Bring home the soldiers and corporate contractors, give Iraq and its oil back to the Iraqis not the bottom of the insurgency.
During the six months, I should have U.N. sponsored elections and work a little bit of autonomy between Kurds and the Shiites would then unify Iraq which is what they all want. Plus continued humanitarian aid.
Other wise it’s just going to fester. They think that its—the violence is declining but it can explode in any moment if we are still there.
DOBBS: So you want out in ten months—
NADER: Six months.
DOBBS: Sooner than Barack Obama.
NADIR: Well, he’d keep 50,000 soldiers there.
DOBBS: Well, let’s turn to Afghanistan.
NADER: That’s a tougher issue. We should never—we should to have had a multilateral strike force go after the backers of the attackers. Instead, we destabilized the whole country again. And you know Afghanistan is not really a country and their tribal chieftains and it’s a very tough geographically. So I think that the more soldiers we put in there, what the soldiers do? They fight, they destroy, they blow up. So wedding parties get blown up, children and it fans the flame.
DOBBS: So what are we to do?
NADER: I think we’ve got to get out of there.”
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/11/ldt.01.html
Nader on Homeland Security
Report thishttp://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Ralph_Nader_Homeland_S ecurity.htm
By Sepharad, October 7 at 9:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Folktruther—Was following Outraged & Inherit the Wind conversation re Nader when I read your Oct. 6 post. ITW and I basically agree on Israeli-Palestinian issues, and for you to suggest that one or the other is “smarter” isn’t very observant. ITW obviously is a great debater—like my husband and son—and all three more patient than I am. ITW can go on and on, point by point, with you and Robert. I’m not a debater. What you take as “civility” is just journalistic experience. When people say crazy things, try to understand why they believe same. Otherwise, how can you understand enought to respond.
On some points ITW and I may differ but only slightly, concerning what Israel can yield without committing suicide. E.g., I think we need to share Jerusalem even though there is no basis for Islamic attachment to the place but a dream of Mohammed’s in the Koran’s 7th sura, in which he and his horse Barak fly to some unspecified temple in the north where they ride up and talk to all the prophets. That’s it. Moslems pray facing Mecca, so what’s the big deal re Jerusalem? Though not based on any historical incident, through history Arabs have become attached to the place, and Saladin was certainly kinder to the Jews of Jerusalem than the Crusaders were, so why not share now? (As long as we don’t have to accept dhimmihood, second class citizenship). If I were religious I’d feel differently, but when my people arrived in Palestine in 1828 there were Arabs as well as Jews there—not that many of either until much later Herzl Zionists started really transforming the land through agricultural innovation attracting MANY Arabs from as far as Iraq, post-1930. But stil as some Arabs and Jews indigenous to Palestine, why shouldn’t we try to at least share Jerusalem? “Right of return” into Israel proper would be demographic suicide—but leaving the West Bank, except for some of the larger settlements around Jerusalem, seems right. Sharon said the West Bank was no longer necessary for Israel’s defense? Good enough for me. Israel’s best course—assuming the religious nutcases haven’t driven all of the Palestinians crazy—is to return to the efforts to set up joint economic projects and make sure every Palestinian child gets a real education (instead of the madrassa-ly-Farfel the Suicide Bomber kiddie hero stuff). The Arab countries have made sure the Palestinians never got on their feet, despite all that oil wealth and all that landspace, for their own bloody-selfish reasons and I hope those responsible all go to a hell I don’t believe in. ITW’s suggestion of a Middle Eastern Union like the European Union is brilliant, something many secular Arabs (who’ve been writing UN whitepapers the last few years, criticizing elements of Islamic society). My family there have largely been in Peace Now, but all also in the IDF and some in the intelligence services. None of them “hate Arabs”—but they DID hate the Netanyahus and the Nasrallahs equally. People like Fadel Abdallah, on the other hand, educated and not filled with hate, are the hope of the region, we should do whatever it takes to make a viable second state happen. And quickly. Gaza was a disaster, but Hamas does not run the West Bank. Not yet.
Patrick Henry doesn’t think the US should support Israel but that doesn’t make him anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel. He’s just more concerned about the U.S., as ITW and I both are.
You, Robert, Shenonymous, otherwise intelligent people, I don’t understand.fine old scholar, Bernard Lewis, a friend of Edward Said, spent his entire life in the Middle East and has written much about it. Not so long ago, he said, “The anti-Semites are coming out from under their rocks. Again.”
There are a couple books coming out I hope to read about the late King of Jordan, both written by Oxford-type Brits with incredible access to the King’s archives.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 7 at 8:56 pm #
Regarding Iraq, Nader/Gonzalez propose a “rapid negotiated withdrawal,” however he doesn’t say with whom he would negotiate nor of what that negotiation would consist on the part of the U.S.
Given Nader’s view of Obama as callous towards the Palestine peace movement and given his own arrogance, it is difficult to see he could ever be invited nor would he want to be part of any presidential administration unless it were his own.
There is nothing said at Nader’s campaign website that discusses homeland security or illegal immigration. It seems these are two major issues that need to be addressed by any presidential candidate.
Report thisBy Outraged, October 7 at 8:17 pm #
Re: Shephard
Your comment: ”Obama was right to vote for the thing and I was wrong to make a snap-decision, lacking both expertise or access to any information apart from what’s printed in the media.”
I disagree. I don’t feel ANY of us made snap decisions, I think the congress who voted for the bailout, this administration and also our major party candidates, Obama and McCain did. There weren’t any hearings held, no scholars were consulted and the American Public’s demands were ignored. If hearings had been held, we would then have been able to ascertain the best outcome. This was stealing from the taxpayers to bailout the financial fiasco of corrupt/inept wall street gamblers.
Using fear mongering to ram this thing through without oversight and common sense reasoning has only condoned this environment of corruption. We also know that this bailout hasn’t alleviated the cause of the problem or helped those who needed help most. We will likely see this abomination rear its ugly head again soon.
I will not vote for either of the corporate candidates. I will vote for Nader.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 7 at 4:42 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Outraged—Thanks; actually I enjoyed all of that work.
Nader’s anger inspired a lot of work on the part of others, but his main problem as a Presidential candidate might damage his own causes by saying what he WANTED to be true but not listening to others who had done the legwork and listened to what people on the ground had to say. I wasn’t one of those “others”—I was always more attuned to FoI oversight while on the Press Project, and didn’t take umbrage at Nader’s harsh comments during his rare brief swoop-ins, as some of my co-workers did, and as did many disillusioned Raiders I encountered when we’d all moved on to different areas.
Inherit the Wind suggested that Nader would be a great advisor or cabinet member or agency head in the Obama administration, and that I would heartily endorse. He knows what he thinks and is certainly not shy about expressing it, which is good because Presidents—except foolish ones like Bush—don’t always “hear” what their best people were telling them. That would never be a problem with Nader.
In an Oct. 4 post I said I’d vote for Nader/Gonzales (as California always goes Democratic anyway) because I was angry with Obama for signing on to the bailout so quickly, letting so many of the high-fliers walk. But judging from all the economic info coming out now, it sounds as if it HAD to be done or middle class and working poor Americans would be in even greater jeopardy than they’ve put us in now. (I would have reacted less if Barney Frank was not frowning so angrily while Nancy Pelosi smiled as if they’d done something right while signing.) Obama was right to vote for the thing and I was wrong to make a snap-decision, lacking both expertise or access to any information apart from what’s printed in the media. I still think Obama appears more above it all than he should be, and I still might vote for Nader IF I’m positive Cal will go Obama. But I don’t think Nader would be a good President.
To answer Leefeller’s rhetorical (I think) question, Nader is not even close to being Harry Truman. Truman had more ability and more humility. I still wonder, however, how it felt to order the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though historians pretty much agree it saved more lives, not just Allies but Japanese as well.
Another question raised by my son-in-law (an Algerian/Portuguese Jew and Apache pilot): how can McCain and Palin hold Obama’s feet to the fire for associating however casually with Bill Ayers when Ayers served time for bombing targets in the U.S. to protest an undeclared war, while McCain made many bombing runs over Vietnam dumping Napalm on CITIES where a pilot, flying that high, had ZERO chance of separating combatants from civilians, guaranteeing massive collateral damage, during the same undeclared war? (Especially considering that both were jailed for their activities and now pursue more peaceable work.) Before Patrick Henry gets mad at me: I do realize McCain was risking his life and following orders, I support US Armed Forces completely, including their families, though I frequently take great issue with what they are asked to do. The Vietnam vet who introduced my husband and me was then, and still does, counseling with vets suffering from PTSD, and says that those who KNOW they didn’t commit murder as opposed to killing in battle tend to come out of it sooner. One of the big problems in Iraq is that soldiers often have no way to make that kind of decision in time since most American soldiers don’t speak Arabic (son-in-law does; it helps on the ground when local Iraqis try to give you information). Obviously speaking Arabic isn’t helpful ENOUGH, as a lot of the people killing each other there all speak Arabic. And non-native speakers have to be really good to detect foreign accents in Arabic. But I’m way off the thread topic here.
Report thisBy PatrickHenry, October 7 at 2:45 pm #
By Inherit The Wind, October 6 at 5:51 pm #
You betcha.
Report thisBy Outraged, October 7 at 9:51 am #
Re: Sepharad
In addition, Thank You so much for your work to make this world and this country a better place.
Your comment:
Report this” During the period I worked for the Center, I took leave to work with Nader’s Press Project, primarily focused on Sunshine Laws (access for media to coucil meetings, legislative hearings and the like that affected the public but were often closed to public and press).”
By Outraged, October 7 at 9:41 am #
Re: Sepharad
Your comment: I don’t remember Nader participating or even expressing interest in the FoI Act push particularly, but would be interested in knowing if he did, and what he did.”
Sepharad, the point I was trying to make isn’t that Nader is “a perfect person” or that he’s “a one-man band”. ITW, is nit-picking trying to take any credit away from Nader. I’ve never claimed that Nader has accomplished these things by himself. I’ve said quite the opposite, some examples from this thread:
”the long history Nader has of working legislation through congress, setting up and working with various individuals and groups, taking on LARGE POWERFUL CORPORATIONS and winning gives us MORE reason to believe that Nader will protect and fight for the average American, than his counterparts.”
”And I would add, I give my utmost of respect for all those who have worked so hard in this capacity whether it was in association with Nader’s organizations or not!....does it matter! Credit where credit is due.”
“(From Wiki)Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader’s work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as “Nader’s Raiders” who, under Nader, investigated government corruption, publishing dozens of books with their results:”
”In order to achieve this record Nader has worked with MANY people, dealt with BUREAUCRACIES and worked with legislators.”
The reality is that Nader had a hand in all these things along with many people. He kept it going. I feel that much of the animosity toward Nader comes from those who worked hard in these organizations yet received little credit in the media. Nader and his organizations are credited with these things, rightfully so. But yes, Nader is the face on it.
All legislators have assistance when they create legislation and do not accomplish these things alone. Many people “behind the scenes” work hard to pass legislation. Still, it is the legislator who’s name is on it. This has been true for Nader also. It doesn’t necessarily mean that this legislator hasn’t worked on it, just that they may have played a different role.
To claim that Nader didn’t dot the “i’s” or cross the “t’s” doesn’t mean he had no hand in it. If Nader coordinated and oversaw the legislation, or if he chose the right people to accomplish it, still speaks well of Nader. It absolutely TRASHES the claim “Nader doesn’t work well with people”.
Nader’s intentions are for the betterment of society. He’s intelligent and I KNOW he’ll fight like crazy (along with others) to stop this corporate takeover of America. He understands this and is WILLING to fight, unlike the majority party candidates.
I have never heard Nader himself “taking all the credit”. But this is what he is accused of. Nader is the familiar FACE of these organizations, but this shouldn’t detract from his contributions. Nor should it be forgotten to give ample credit for those in the trenches.
In fact.... if there’s ANYONE who thinks “you can’t do it alone” it’s Nader. The difference is.... Nader is certain IT CAN BE DONE. And he’s stated that about a million times.
Does it make logical sense to claim Nader doesn’t “work well with others” when he’s formed about 30 organizations. Reasonably, if I’m not a statistician, but I need one.. I’ll hire one to get the job done, what’s the matter with that. Let’s say Nader acknowledges someone’s mastery of a topic, and he puts them in charge of that issue… this is A GOOD THING. Still, this doesn’t mean Nader wasn’t a part of it, which is ITW’s big issue.
ITW has one measuring stick for the people he claims are “worthy” and another one for everyone else. How ITW comes to his determination of “worthiness”.... is suspect.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 7 at 3:31 am #
Outraged, October 6 at 8:48 pm #
Re: ITW
Your comment: “Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS. That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around. Never. Not ever.”
I’m curious… What makes you SO positive of this...? I think Nader stands a very good change given the corporate candidate options, especially in a close race. I absolutely think that at the VERY LEAST 40% of Americans are not happy with the corporate candidates.
Never, say never. You know how that goes.
***********************************************
Yeah, maybe you’re right. Cosmologists roughly estimate the life of the universe at 10^200 years. So far the universe is about 1.5 x10^10 years (15 billion years). Since 1.5 x 10^11 is 150 billion years or 10x longer and 1.5 x 10^12 is 1.5 TRILLION years, 10^200 is beyond comprehension.
Given that time frame, maybe you’re right.
But in my lifetime, or, more importantly, Ralph’s (He’s 73 or so isn’t he), it makes a 120:1 long shot horse look like a sure thing.
Of course, if he could get the voting machine companies to fix it for him........Nah, even then it won’t happen.
Report thisBy Sepharad, October 6 at 9:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Outraged—I’m not saying you’re wrong about Nader contributing something to the passage of the FoI Act, but do you know exactly what he did? I worked on that for five years as sr. research associate for the Freedom of Information Center, based at the UofMo School of Journalism under Exec Director Paul Fisher, and also in D.C. at our lobbying office run by Sam Archibald. (Fisher and Archibald conceived the idea not too long after WWII’s newly minted intelligence agencies set up a very elaborate system for more classification and withholding of information than these two newsmen thought healthy for our country.) Though the Center addressed many related issues (privacy, freedom of expression, sunshine laws etc.), often challenging individual cases of the classification system’s more ridiculous excesses, the primary aim always was getting a law passed to guarantee access to material not truly damaging to national security—i.e. roughly 80% of what was being classified for many other reasons—and to provide for eventual release on what at a given time was classified material, the date of release depending on the actual need-to-not-know shelf-life of any given material, so that journalists, historians and the public could eventually see what had been going on in their name. During the period I worked for the Center, I took leave to work with Nader’s Press Project, primarily focused on Sunshine Laws (access for media to coucil meetings, legislative hearings and the like that affected the public but were often closed to public and press). I don’t remember Nader participating or even expressing interest in the FoI Act push particularly, but would be interested in knowing if he did, and what he did.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 6 at 9:56 pm #
Pig Fact for the Day:
Report thisMany experts consider pigs to be more trainable than dogs or cats.
By Outraged, October 6 at 8:48 pm #
Re: ITW
Your comment: “Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS. That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around. Never. Not ever.”
I’m curious… What makes you SO positive of this...? I think Nader stands a very good change given the corporate candidate options, especially in a close race. I absolutely think that at the VERY LEAST 40% of Americans are not happy with the corporate candidates.
Never, say never. You know how that goes.
Vote Nader/Gonzales
Report thisBy GrammaConcept, October 6 at 7:52 pm #
RE.....Palin.........Professional Sociopath comes to mind....
RE .....the VP “debate”.....
IMO that was the archetypal voices of these archetypes.....:
.......’reptilian brain meets cerebral cortex’............
Also, to interested persons.......The Keating 5 vid is now available for viewing....
http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/keatingvideo
Strive On, Friends.......
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 6 at 5:51 pm #
PatrickHenry, October 6 at 3:09 pm #
I can always count on ITW to slander, misrepresent and out and out act like an arrogant ass to the other posters to this site, especially if you are against Israeli interference in American politics.
****************************
Thanks, PH. I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Now would you PLEASE tell Rus-the-Repub the same thing over on the Sarah Palin Attack thread?
(I know it’s all said with respect and friendship....)
Report thisBy PatrickHenry, October 6 at 3:09 pm #
I can always count on ITW to slander, misrepresent and out and out act like an arrogant ass to the other posters to this site, especially if you are against Israeli interference in American politics.
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/act ivist.html
I’ve voted for Nader twice in previous general elections and believe in his campaign motto “ A vote for me is a vote for yourself”.
I would have liked to see Nader in the debates, where I’m sure he would have changed the topics to more important ones.
Until such time as Nader runs for office and demonstrates his electability and ability to make the rubber meet the road, I cannot support his campaign anymore, but I will continue to admire him for his accomplishments.
Report thisBy Inherit The Wind, October 6 at 1:51 pm #
Must have been someone else called me “Windy”...But since you’ve now accused me of being on Obama’s payroll, which is false (Technically, he’s on MY payroll, since I’ve donated to his campaign) I’m not going to apologize.
I checked your link and others. I said so. I found NOTHING but a Nader website ASSERTION (unsupported) that Nader was “Instrumental” in bringing about the FOIA. Yet nowhere does it say how. You’ve posted the same assertions 3x, but not added ANY information to them.
So I’m done with you. I see enough of Republicans spouting nonsense and refusing to address flaws in it, and just repeating it.
Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS. That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around. Never. Not ever.
I used to admire Ralph Nader. But IMHO in 2000 he put his ego ahead of his nation’s dire need. And that will forever be the coda of hi