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You’re No Harry Truman, Governor

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Posted on Oct 2, 2008
Palin and Biden
AP photo / Don Emmert, pool

Republican Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden respond to questions from moderator Gwen Ifill of PBS during their vice presidential debate Thursday in St. Louis.

By Bill Boyarsky

He was boring. She was vapid. They were a perfect couple for the one and only 2008 vice presidential debate.

Gov. Sarah Palin survived, much to the disappointment of Democrats who hoped she would crumble as she did in her interview with CBS anchor Katie Couric. But she ducked tough questions, gave canned answers, tried to smile her way out of tough spots and cheerfully distorted Sen. Barack Obama’s record.

Sen. Joseph Biden was, of course, better prepared. All those years in the Senate taught him something. What a creature of the Senate he was, working his way through the details of his legislative record, even invoking the name of a long departed hero, Sen. Mike Mansfield, who gave him advice he never forgot. Even if it was hard for listeners to concentrate on everything he said, the man knew what he was talking about.

In the contest for who was best qualified to be president, Biden won by a landside. In the contest for who won the debate, Palin illustrated a lesson that Willy Loman learned in Arthur Miller’s old play, “Death of a Salesman”: It takes more than a smile and a shoeshine to be successful.

She couldn’t smile her way out of trying to explain what Sen. John McCain would do about the financial crisis that is dragging the country down.

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Instead, she relied on anecdotes and folksy examples. She described how she and her husband, Todd (the “First Dude” of Alaska), would sit around and talk about how government is not the solution for the troubles of the middle class. She blamed “corruption and greed and Wall Street” for the nation’s troubles and wrapped herself in the mantle of First Mom. “I think a good barometer here, as we try to figure out, ‘Has this been a good time or a bad time in America’s economy?’ is go to a kids’ soccer game on Saturday and turn to any parent there on the sideline and ask them, ‘How are you feeling about the economy?’ ” Palin said. “And I’ll betcha you’re going to hear some fear in that parent’s voice.”

That’s not a helpful answer, Governor, and by the way we all noticed the lakefront house you and Todd have up in Alaska when Charlie Gibson interviewed you there. Pretty nice, especially with Todd’s airplane parked out back.

Palin was a total wild card. Nothing Biden said had any impact on her. She treated him graciously, as if he were an odd but pleasant newcomer to Wasilla, having just moved there from the lower 48. He showed she was often factually wrong, but she ignored him with a smile. Finally, he was reduced to repeating his points. “Let me say it again,” he said on a couple of occasions.

She was a difficult opponent for Biden, who rose through Delaware politics and the Senate, where discussion and debate are conducted in the back-and-forth manner of traditional politics.

Biden seemed to practice the art of brevity Thursday night. In an effort to tone down his sometimes ungovernable enthusiasm, he was often plodding. But he was loaded with facts.

In response to Palin’s touting of alternative energy, Biden said McCain had voted 10 times against such proposals. Biden went into a lengthy explanation of Obama’s votes on Iraq. “Your plan is a white flag,” Palin said.

After a while, though, smiles and cutting lines annoy or even bore an audience.

Biden slogged along, one fact after another, treating his foe with congenial respect. He knew more than she did but didn’t make a big thing of it. That was all he had to do.

The main purpose of the debate was to show the American people who would be best qualified to take over if the president died.

Palin likes to cite the example of Harry Truman, who was a farmer and an unsuccessful haberdasher before going into politics and becoming president after Franklin Roosevelt’s death. But Truman was an accomplished senator before Roosevelt chose him to be vice president. He was the nationally known chairman of a committee which unearthed corruption by World War II contractors.

Palin showed she could get through a debate without being rattled, after days of preparation in McCain’s house in Arizona. That’s all she showed. Aside from sharing small-town roots, Sarah Palin is no Harry Truman.


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By wholesale air jordan, November 19, 2008 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have visited most of the sites you posted. good articles.

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By wholesale air jordan, November 19, 2008 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Scapegoating Nader for this mess is plain nonsense.  It is also rhetoric to claim a vote for Nader is a vote for McCain.  Claiming that is like claiming a vote for Kerry in 2004, was a vote for Bush, since Kerry caved regarding the recount.  A vote for Nader, is a vote for Nader - that’s it.

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By Shenonymous, October 10, 2008 at 4:28 am Link to this comment

The Gloves are Off!

Even so-called watchdog advocacy groups lie for their own pocketbooks! For a price, the guard dog will be an advocate - Citizens Against Government Waste made a name for itself by exposing government waste. But it has quietly, secretly, made a lot of its money by lobbying. The St. Petersburg Times reported in April 2006.  This is the group that gives McCain high marks. Citizens Against Government Waste, CAGW, did not reveal what motivated the aggressive campaign to support avocados from Mexico.: It had received about $100,000 from Mexican avocado growers.  Then CAGW took at least $245,000 from tobacco companies while urging the federal government not to regulate tobacco and to drop a lawsuit against the industry.  What kind of hypocrisy are we going to allow?

Then NPR has joined hands with CIR to give a more truthful reporting:  This story is headlined today at the website noted above in Will Evans ETOG article:  New Group Tied To Oil Industry Runs Ads Promoting Drilling, Attacking Democrat.

The deception foisted onto the American public is criminal.  Passing spurious charges as fact is fraudulent.  That kind of trickery is the now the identifying mark of McCain/Palin.

For a better America, vote Obama/Biden.

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By Sepharad, October 10, 2008 at 2:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Folktruther—Re AIPAC, better watch out. Your posts might encourage anyone slightly more paranoid than me to think maybe AIPAC is needed. I do support the American Jewish Congress (one of the signers of a letter circulated to protest accusations that Obama was a Moslem and therefore unfit to run). I also work for Honest Reporting (you can check their site anytime), which calls attention to doctored photos and video as well as inaccurate reporting re Israel. They routinely, though it’s always a major effort, get retractions from the likes of BBC, Agence France Presse, Reuters, CBC, even Al Jazeera and others—though of course the retractions are buried in the pages and not as prominent as the original article or film. But it’s better than nothing.

Re Likud and particularly Netanyahu who is powerful and therefore most dangerous, I believe he/they are beyond unfair to the Palestinians and dangerous to Israel. Not that it’s any of your business, but I do oppose them in Israel and elsewhere, publically and otherwise, in ways that I think are most effective.

Telling Inherit The Wind that distaste is not enough but hatred is required is not only presumptuous but stupid. In some circles expressions of distaste are lethal.

We all know what you are against—Israel. But what, outside of the Middle East, are you for? Not some ideal, just something that is possible and right for this country, for its own peoples’ good?

Lots of people who like Israel are not Zionist warmongers. Biden is not a warmonger, and has done many investigations, suggested many policies regarding many countries. That’s his job. Senate Foreign Relations Commmittee.

Did you ever read any of Oriana Fallaci’s work? Mostly ‘60s-90s political reportage? Novel about her husband who was executed by Greek fascists, “Inshallah” about Beirut during Lebanon’s civil war? Her last book, “Force of Reason,” opposes Islamic culture’s growing influence in Europe. Last spring, wandered into a bookstore on San Francisco’s Haight Street and asked if they had a copy, as it wasn’t on the shelves. They guy said, “We won’t carry anything Oriana Fallaci writes.” Sarah Palin TRIES to ban books but a big store in famously tolerant San Francisco commercially bans a Fallaci book. Something is wrong here.

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By Sepharad, October 10, 2008 at 12:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymous—I’m disappointed to hear about the male dophins’ swaggering behavior—they’re supposed to one of the more intelligent species, but then, so are we. I still have high hopes for the intelligence of pigs and dogs, or did until our old Boston terrier fell in love with a potbellied pig who lives on the next farm, who returned his interest, and they used to roam about together—maybe because they were both black and white, stubby and small? When they actually attempted to Get Together in the middle of the dirt road, they discovered their differences and took off running in opposite directions. He never was quite the same. Among humans, swaggering is definitely the dominant paradigm. Unhelpful in the extreme, but that’s the reality.

You teach K thru 12? That’s unusual; sounds interesting, rewarding, a little scary because of the responsibility. You watch and help shape those minds develop, not as parent but as mentor which is probably more influential. A consistent relationship with a kid could enlarge her/his potential for curiousity, exploring without being terrified of being wrong, i.e. learning how to think (an endangered art, no?).

If people contemplated—or even simply understood—the depth of the universe’s indifference and coldness, they would stop wasting time, behave rationally, have more fun, exercise compassion, and use all of the things people are capable of—creativity, writing and/or reading, music, art, passion, enjoyment of the cold old universe’s better side (animals, wilderness, solitude, dark nights,). They’d also fund more “pure” scientific research, biomedical, biotech ... But instead we have politicians and religion and people baying for money then spending it stupidly while 3% of world’s population consume 75% of its resources. I don’t know WHY people prefer to not look at things as they are, just that they’d feel so much better if they did. Religion is a huge stumbling block. It’s not the stories we tell each other—which in themselves are interesting and culturally revealing—but because it, and its offshoots such as various mystical and supernatural beliefs, veil reality, turn out the light and leave us groping stupidly in the dark. Speaking of which, there are disturbing reports of Palin audiences crying out things like “Treason!” “Kill him!” in the middle of sunny days in country fair-like settings. At what point does campaign-as-demagoguery become un-American enough to merit a fatwa? A gentle refined Iranian woman—aquaintance, not friend—suggested to me today that American men liked Palin’s “tits”, someone should shoot SP, that she was afraid to go back to Iran to visit family because of the “lunatic” running the country, and would we have a revolution if Palin became President? (My responses were “maybe”, “maybe”, “sorry”, and “I don’t know, I doubt it, but it’s worth considering.”) 

I hate to admit it, but in his biography of Mohammed, the French historian Maxime Rodinson said that Mohammed, in his days as a camel driver, was initially offended by some Jews in Medina: he walked up to them, told them he was the prophet of the one true god—and they laughed at him. Big mistake. Later, when he got his groove and enough followers, he slaughtered them all and went looking for more. That made me wonder briefly whether a modicum of sensitivity or just politeness 700 years ago might have prevented a lot of bloodshed, but decided probably not. Tribal history before and since that Medina moment has been full of harsh words and soft, lies and truth, but the only constant has been the blood-letting. Not just the Semites but the other tribes, Angles, Saxons, Normans, Gauls, etc etc. One day, my daughter-in-law was running her finger over one of our bookshelves, stopped at “Dark Continent” by Eric Mazower, leafed through it and said (pleased), “Oh—this isn’t about Africa. He’s writing about Europe.”

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By Folktruther, October 9, 2008 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment

A two state solution, Inherit, which was once the obvious historical solution, is less possible with every passing day. And since Aipac et al funds and medias the pols of both parties, the US will continue to help prevent it.  Distaste for Aipac isn’t good enough, Ihherit.  I’m talking hatred here.  Or at least public opposition.

Of course that doesn’t mean you should follow my lead politically.  Why should you, no one else does.  If you, in your ignorance, think a two state solution still viable, then support it.  But not without acknowledging the Israli opppression of the Palestinians.

And if you can’t stay awake at night worrying about my opinion of your posts, then get an alarm clock.  That’s what they’re for.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 9, 2008 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

Hey FolkTruther,
Bad news:  I don’t stay up nights worrying whether you think my posts have “improved”

You don’t get to decide that my distaste for AIPAC and Likud means I MUST follow your lead.  Even though I’m a lout, I’m fully capable of thinking for myself, and try to do it whenever I have a spare moment.  So I’ll decide for myself who I’ll support in Israel.

BTW, you are so blatantly wrong about the 2 state solution, if your goal is to allow Israel to survive. If your goal is to destroy Israel then insist on a one-state solution and the right of return.  That’s because Israel will NEVER willingly commit suicide. There will only be a one-state solution if Israel is defeated militarily.  Then there will be another holocaust.

OTOH, if there’s a two-state solution and the hot-heads are shut down, the possibility of economic ties open up.  It can take 50 years, like Europe, for effective barriers to fall, but what’s 50 years if it’s 50 years of peace?

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By Shenonymous, October 9, 2008 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Folksytruther, maybe he was sucking power through a straw?  Kuhn gave the word paradigm its modern meaning but later preferred other terms like exemplar or normal science.  I don’t know about his dismay with New Agers commandeering the word.  I happen to take its meaning as groupthink where members arrive at a consensus without evaluating ideas.  This is usually motivated by a desire to not be seen as foolish.  Often hasty and irrational choices are made because the dominant paradigm instructs to repress independent critical thinking.  I didn’t really care if anybody thought I made an anti-Israeli remark, just thought I’d help out those who thought so since there are those who love to call others anti-Semites (even though the Jews aren’t the only ones to be identified as Semites).  It is obvious I don’t really care about them, the Islamists, the Christian right, and you.

Sepharad, seems like the Romans demolished and devoured much of the world, and yes damn their souls, or whatevers, since I don’t believe in souls or hell.  I don’t know exactly what I’m saying there.  Just a curse expression.  I couldn’t agree with you more that almost all war is stupid.  I would go so far as to say, all war is stupid.  At least the waging of it.  The universe is hostile enough a place as you remind us.  Don’t you think though that most people hardly think about the stark harshness of the universe?  If there would be only one evil culture that is enough to ruin the world.  As a historian, you also know that war is in the genes of men.  I see it in young boys where I now teach and since I teach all grades pre-K through 12, I see it as it develops from the youngest to the ones ready to take that leap into the world of adults.  Boys will out of the blue go up and push or shove or bang on another boy for no rational reason.  Not rational since I have questioned them on this several times, and this is so in various age groups.  A niece of mine noted to me once that “young men aren’t the only ones who act macho? Male river-dolphins will “punch” their friends, grab branches and wave them, and toss turtles in the air. They’re not fighting and there aren’t any females around. They’re just trying to impress each other, the dolphin version of swaggering. According to scientists, they’re the only animals that act the same way humans do in this aspect.”  There is a lot of swaggering that goes on in politics everywhere in the world today.  I think it is more serious than machoism.  On Truthdig though, it is just the dominant paradigm.

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By Folktruther, October 9, 2008 at 10:57 am Link to this comment

Inherit, for a Zionist lout your posts seem to be getting better lately.  Are you feeling alright?

A two-state solution would have been possible after the 1967 war, but now is too late.  It was the obvious historical solution but Israel banned the Palestinian flag and began its repression.  Now, only the US could broker it and, under either new president, it obviously is not going to.

Ihnerit, Sepharad, if you are against Aipac, et al Likud strategy you can’t keep it a secret.  You have to openly attack them. and Zionist warmongers like Biden as well.

Dr Shenonymous, you are my favorite Learned.  Just reading your posts brightens my day.  I loved your assertion that your comment that Israeli oppression of the Palestians has no acceptable justification and this might lead some to think this an anti-Israel remark.  Well yes, it might.

But soldier on.  After all, not all the Educated are radical enough to hang the slogan on their office wall, SUBVERT THE DOMINANT PARADIGM.  Really rad.

The term ‘paradigm’ comes from Thomas Kuhn’s influential essay THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS.  He was horrified when the New Agers took it over and he repudiated it.  Serves the power sucking son of a bachelor right.

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By Sepharad, October 9, 2008 at 12:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

SHENONYMOUS,

Yeah, anti-Semitism among Moslems has always been different than with Christians. But in later years, it’s been kind of mixed up with the Islamists taking up the whole Protocols of the Elders of Zion thing. I think European-style anti-Semitism came to the Middle East with the British and WWI, but doubt it was sooner. Euros have been fascinated with the Islamic world for centuries, but only the Turks have been equally curious about Europeans for centuries, not just their useful gunpowder and trading possibilities but the differentness of European culture. (Western music was never favored by the Ottomans, but they certainly were adopting a lot of everything else.) 

The primary accepted usage of the term anti-Semitism itself as described in Websters’ III ed. is crazily inaccurate, as the Arabs are also Semites. If we Jews hadn’t been so stubborn and stiff-necked the Romans, damn their souls, might not have gone berserk and attempted ethnic cleansing, and there would not have been such a definite diaspora and all its effects. It would have been much longer before Jews became more Occidental than Oriental, probably around the time of Al Andalus and picking up on the Greeks etc. The degree of difference is an accident of history, probably all to the good, but who ever really knows? 

Over our piano there is a beautiful photograph hanging, taken by one of my Israeli cousins when she and her husband were camping in the Sinai. At sunset the cliffs were mirrored in the sand, and there are visible large markings, a language of some sort, also mirrored. It’s not Hebrew or Arabic or Aramaic lettering, so we took it over to the linguists at Berkeley who couldn’t put a name to it but said it was some proto-Semitic language. Beautiful photo, reds, sands, siennas, but we don’t know what it really says. For years it’s been kind of a family pasttime to hazard guesses, like “Nebuchannezar Sucks” or “Meet me at the Wadi”. Of course I’m entirely aware of the vast gulf between Arabs and Jews that exists today, and I’m not off in la-la-land, but anti-this or anti-that is just stupid, in the same way that most—- not all—wars that’ve ever been are stupid. The universe is a cold, cold place, there are plenty of life or death battles with the physical world to engage, disease, drought, you name it the universe is ready to kill us without even noticing. So why are we continually trying to cheat or massacre or screw up our own clever and inventive species? There are evil individuals, for sure, but not evil races or cultures—well, not many anyway. I hate waste, and that’s exactly what we’re doing, wasting time and lives and potential and somehow there never seems to be a choice. This is so unintellectual I can’t believe I’m writing it and probably shouldn’t post it, but what the hell, why not?

I’ll go back to being a historian and researcher and advocate and objective digger tomorrow. Not to worry.

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By Sepharad, October 8, 2008 at 11:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

INHERIT THE WIND—In my Oct. 7 9:26 post I didn’t say I thought Israel had just as fucked up a government as we do. (Where did that quote come from?) But I actually agree with it, even if I didn’t say it. The difference is that the Israeli people have much more control over getting the government in that reflects what they want. Problem is Israelis are so diverse that it’s hard to get the exact coalition right. Others would have other opinions, but I think the worst problem we have are a bunch of religious fundamentalists combined with a rightwing that together can wield a lot of power. It takes someone like a Sharon who can hold them off while he tries to do something useful. Losing him at that particular juncture was a piece of bad luck. Corruption indictment or not, no way would Olmert step down if he hadn’t allowed his generals to screw up the war so badly. If the Lebanon War had gone well he wouldn’t even THINK of stepping down. Israelis take it really personally when their kids’ lives are thrown away, even if they don’t agree about anything else. I do think if Tzipi Livni can get a decent coalition government, enough to avoid a national election that might give Netanyahu another crack at wrecking the country, their government will be in better shape than ours has any prospect of becoming.

Red diaper baby = either 1)Mommy was a Commie, (mine tore up her card, they tell me, when Stalin signed nonaggression pact with Hitler) or 2)grew up in Levvitown social experiment (friends who did say it made a kibbutz seem luxurious and diverse). My parents were not doctrinaire ideologues, just working-middle-class way-left Democrats who read a lot, believed in Marxist socialism and liked the Marx brothers, classical music and show tunes, and were interested in people based on character, not skin color or religion. They didn’t TALK to us about what was right or wrong, just had friends of various hues in and out of the house, loved Lincoln and Roosevelt and Israel (could be fierce on that subject; there was always a map of Israel up in the kitchen with thumbtacks marking progress of battles, whereabouts of relatives) and the Kennedy boys. Didn’t bat an eyelash when I married a non-Jew as true love was involved—but if he hadn’t been smart, THAT would have been a problem. They worried that there might not be decent doctors and schools west of the Mississippi, certainly not as far west as his native Berkeley. Luckily my cousin working for NASA in Ames personally assured them that Bay Area medics were adequate and the people generally civilized. But they didn’t really feel better until they came out here to see for themselves. I still don’t understand why they felt Israel was safer than the American west. People out here weren’t shooting at each other in an organized way.

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2008 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment

Yeah, PatrickHenry, neither do little fish, nor big fish.  Nukers are best seen as peanuts and nuts.  Let’s say that Pakistan is a nuking peanut, India a big nut, China a big nut, Israel is a middle-size nuclear nut, and the United States, Great Britain, France, are super big nuking nuts.  Oh yeah, and Russia, a super big nut.  Have I left anybody out?  How about nuking nuts wannabes: North Korea and Iran?

Thank you Sepharad I always learn something from your comments.  I keep a copy of all my posts and in checking I find that I am uncertain what you meant by your comment “based on [my] earlier posts over the past year or so” with respect to anti-Semitism.  A careful reading would show I have not expressed hostility towards or had any prejudice against Jews. Nor Islamists for that matter.  I may have commented that the oppression of Palestinians has no acceptable justification and some might erroneously think that an anti-Israeli remark.  And I am sure I have said something about the factor of religion being a catastrophic deterrent to peace regardless of which one it is.

Yes there should be two separate states Israel and Palestine, which is what I meant to make clear but have not due to distractions.  As I read Jewish history and Islamic history it strikes me it has been an interminable series of miserable conflict.  As such I did a cursory search on antisemitism in Islam.  The following are my brief verbatim findings:

The nature and extent of antisemitism in Islam and the Muslim world are hotly-debated issues in contemporary Middle East politics, with various scholars viewing the issues in differing ways:
*Scholars like Claude Cahen and Shelomo Dov Goitein deny the existence of antisemitism in Muslim lands, on the basis that any discrimination which was practiced against non-Muslims was of general nature, and not directed specifically at Jews.  For these scholars, antisemitism in Medieval Islam was local and sporadic rather than general and endemic. For Goitein antisemitism was not present at all, and for Cahen it was rarely present.

*According to Bernard Lewis, while Muslims held negative stereotypes regarding Jews, these stereotypes were not indicative of antisemitism because, unlike Christians, Muslims viewed Jews as objects of ridicule, not fear, as Muslims did not attribute “cosmic evil” to Jews.  In Lewis’ view, it was only in the late nineteenth century that movements first appeared among Muslims that can legitimately be described as antisemitic.

*Frederick M. Schweitzer and Marvin Perry state that there are mostly negative references to Jews in the Qur’an and Hadith, and that Islamic regimes treated Jews in degrading ways. Jews (and Christians) had the status of dhimmis. They state that throughout much of history Christians treated Jews worse, saying that Jews in Christian lands were subjected to worse polemics, persecutions and massacres than under Muslim rule.

*According to Walter Laqueur, the varying interpretations of the Qur’an is important to Muslim attitudes. Many Quranic verses preach tolerance towards the Jews; others make hostile remarks about them (which are similar to hostile remarks made against those who didn’t accept Islam); still another promises Jerusalem to the Jews. The Islamic prophet Muhammad interacted with Jews that lived in Arabia: he preached to them in hopes of conversion, he fought against and killed many Jews, while he made friends with other Jews.

*For Martin Kramer, the idea that contemporary antisemitism by Muslims is authentically Islamic “touches on some truths, yet it misses many others”. Kramer believes that contemporary antisemitism is due only partially to Israeli policies, about which Muslims may have a deep sense of injustice and loss. But Kramer attributes the primary causes of Muslim antisemitism to modern European ideologies, which have infected the Muslim world.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2008 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, October 8 at 5:32 pm #

By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:07 pm #

1. I don’t trust either.
*******************************************

I never would have guessed!  (me neither!)

*******************************************

2.  Sun Tsu was Palestinian?

********************************************

Yeah.  From the distant Palestinian branch of Far, Far Away…in the Warring States period of Palestinian history—about 1000 years before Mohammed, even before the Roman Empire.


3.  The people have gotten soft. When you start a war you got to have committment.  Nothing like a bunch of weekend warriors half assing a military operation.

******************************************

There’s always the nukes…..

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By PatrickHenry, October 8, 2008 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 5:07 pm #

1. I don’t trust either.

2.  Sun Tsu was Palestinian?

3.  The people have gotten soft. When you start a war you got to have committment.  Nothing like a bunch of weekend warriors half assing a military operation.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2008 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, October 8 at 3:38 pm #

By Shenonymous, October 8 at 1:58 pm #

In the big fish, little fish world the fish in the middle rarely has a nuke.
***************************************

Gotta go with what you have!  Tell me, who do you trust more with a nuke: Israel or Pakistan?  Both have them.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 1:38 pm #

The Saladin way was 1) set 1/3 free, 2} cut off the hand or 1/3 which raised the sword against me and 3) behead 1/3.

It sent a clear message.
*******************************************

So, PH, you’re suggesting that the Israels give 1/3 of the Palestinians total freedom, cut the hands off 1/3 of the Palestinians, and cut the heads of 1/3 of the Palestinians??????????????????????????

Kill 1 million Palestinians?  That would be a worse genocide than Rwanda.  In fact, it would be the STUPIDEST thing Israel could do!

*******************************************

By Sepharad, October 7 at 9:26 pm #

Thank you, I believe Israel has just as fucked up government as we presently do.
********************************************

I actually agree with that.  The invasion of Lebanon was so fucked up I suspected the Bush White House was doing the planning for them—Israel has NEVER fucked up a military operation that badly! 

Ohlmert is an incompetent twit—just like Georgie.

Hopefully, Lippi will be able to form a strong government without “What-a-Yahoo” and his religo-fascist pals.

Sepharad, I’m confused…Red used to mean Marxist, now it means Republican and Blue meant American and now means Democrats!  Not really a RDB, more like pink or orange diapers (Actually, more yellow and brown…I’ve changed enough for my own kids—PEE-YOOO!!! )

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By Sepharad, October 8, 2008 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

SHENONYMOUS, I’m sorry if I erred lumping you in with anti-Semites, based on some of your earlier posts over the past year or so. What you are saying now I agree with, except that, as ITW says, there has to be a second-state, not a single one, given centuries of history where Jews & Moslems lived together but the Jews always as second-class citizens, dhimmi’hood, and that even with a mensch like Saladin. (Jews were not allowed to ride horses in his day, only mules, but Saladin made sure that Maimonides had the best white mule in the country. That’s not good enough anymore.) Fadel has suggested that dhimmihood might not be a requirement in these more enlightened times, but I wouldn’t count on that. Also there are real extremists on both sides, the demographics being what they are it could become a final massacre. The economic bridge and education are the only way to get to peace and justice for everyone, and both sides have to slap down their extremists before there’s no need for a wall. But I do think the land on the east side of the wall should be returned to the Palestinians, along with economic growth, education and mutual cooperation. I really do see the possibility of a new Levantine region that would enrich all oil-free Arab states and the Jewish state. But a lot has to change first, Israel has to take the first step and the Palestinians have to take the second. I’ll be in Israel Thanksgiving week but doubt I’ll learn anything I couldn’t learn long distance; just miss the land and people. We’ve been saving for this trip a couple years, husband’s small out-of-our-house business slows down a lot that week, and the horses out back will appreciate the break.       

Folktruther—Olmert IS a Zionist. (They come in all flavors.)

ITW—Sounds like we both were red-diaper babies. The other RDBs I’m still in touch with have also turned out agnostic. 

OUTRAGED, my “snap decision” was a moment of anger, and re the bailout (which has already paid $440,000+ to stressed AIG executives for an 8-day corporate retreat yet apparently done nothing to stop the downward spiral), I have to say I’m way over my head and do not understand the intricacies of international economic workings except that somehow the same individuals and coupon-clipping classes invariably emerge on top, and that for the worst profiteers national boundaries seem to be irrelevant and national loyalties nonexistent. I don’t think Obama will be much of a reformer in any respect, especially after watching him twist arms in the Black Caucus to put the bailout over the top. Even so, he’d be better navigating this country through JACKPINE’s “end of empire” mode than either McCain or Nader. Nader has better, clearer ideals than either candidate on specific issues—but in all these years, with all his support, he’s been unable to organize a party that could get him on a three-way primary circuit where that 40% leverage could materially alter the Democratic platform or get the nomination himself. Obama, for instance, should not have been able to reject him as he did this time for being “too obstinate,” unless he was ready to lose a lot of votes. That was a bad call on Obama’s part: there are departments and agencies where obstinate, strong, uncompromising leadership is the only kind that will make a difference fast enough. Interior or EPA, e.g. But steering a whole country through the kind of cataclysm we may be looking at requires a broader skill set.

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By PatrickHenry, October 8, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, October 8 at 1:58 pm #

In the big fish, little fish world the fish in the middle rarely has a nuke.

By Inherit The Wind, October 8 at 1:38 pm #

The Saladin way was 1) set 1/3 free, 2} cut off the hand or 1/3 which raised the sword against me and 3) behead 1/3.

It sent a clear message.

By Sepharad, October 7 at 9:26 pm #

Thank you, I believe Israel has just as fucked up government as we presently do.

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2008 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

There is oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis.  However, in the bigger picture, Israel is threatened by the entire Arab coalition.  It’s like the small peanut being threatened by the middle sized nut being threatened by the giant nut.  It is like a food chain.  Others (the West, headed by the US) found it advantageous to help the middle group (Israel) not get eaten up, and the giant (the Arab nations in unison:  Syria, Jordan, Iran, et al) in their Islamic imperialist jihadist West-hating and jealous mind set helps the small group (Palestine) from becoming peanut butter.  Folktruther does not read well, and reinterprets what little he does get.  There is Zionism and there is Islamism.  Both insanities.  Equally insane.

With respect to the nasty condition of the world, beginning right at home, deregulation is one of the worst offenses along with many other power and greed deceits and its designers are the human vermin that found the way to force these strategies onto the unsuspecting public.  If these treacherous victimizers were not Jews, or Muslims, they were right-wing Christians supported by the silent rest of the Christian world.  The prescient dissenters just did not have either a loud enough voice nor a more seductive message.  By the way, there are many rich Muslims in the United States, try Las Vegas for those cartels.  It is surprising how much money the Arabs have in the United States.  What are they doing to stop the quasi-religious wars Middle Eastern wars?  Divine causes are the biggest frauds perpetrated on the human race.  Eventually the world will catch on and religions will all but disappear.  Then you might have a chance at world peace.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2008 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

Although more personally congenial than Inherit, an obvious lout, she is, like Inherit, bascially for the oppression of the Arabs under the guise of supporting a two state solution.
***************************************

I didn’t know that.  You could have at least had the decency to call me a subtle lout.

I also didn’t know I was for the oppression of the Arabs. I certainly didn’t think I was.  But I guess you can read my mind and my subconscious because your Marxist theology tells you automatically what I MUST be thinking if I disagree with you.  It’s all based on Marxist “science”. (which is about as reputable as “Creation science”).

Since I’m a lout, I am pretty simple.  I believe that Sun-Tzu was right: You have 2 choices of what to do with an enemy when you have defeated him:

1) You pick him up, dust him off, offer him a chance to build a new life and prosper along with you.

or

2) You kill him and all his fellows.

EVERYTHING I’ve said and posted shows I’m for 1) not 2).

I’m too much of a lout to see some third alternative, where you do neither 1) nor 2), but I KNOW it’s not VolksVeher’s choice. 
3)——————————————————

His is the fourth alternative

4) The victors out of remorse for having defeated their mortal enemies who tried repeatedly to destroy them, all fall on their swords and turn over their nation, their property and their families to the losers, allowing the losers to actually achieve their objective.

Tell you what, Volkisch:  When YOU are the victor YOU can practice 4)

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By Folktruther, October 8, 2008 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

Outraged, I don’t think Sepharad is making the US and the world a better place. On the contrary. Although more personally congenial than Inherit, an obvious lout, she is, like Inherit, bascially for the oppression of the Arabs under the guise of supporting a two state solution.  Just like Israeli leaders, who during the Oslo Accords increased enormously the Jewish settlers on Palestinian land.

The Zionist leaders are not serious about a two state solution. They keep it as a talking point while starving and killing Palesitian men, women and children, blowing up their houses, torturing them as prisoners, stealing their taxes, stealing their water, not recognizing or negotiating with their elected leaders, keeping the whole population under community arrest, and offering them as a “State” a collection of Bantustans isolated from each other and incapahle of viablity.

But the Zionist viewpoint controls the media, both the Progressive and Conservative media, including the criticism of the media that Sepharad worked on, since this criticism has some of the same presuppositions of the media that it criticizes.

This media is used to delude people like Dr Shenonymous, a highly Educated truther.  She goes even farther than Sepharad, who claims that it is not really Israel that is oppressing the Palestinians. Dr S believes that Israel is the underdog and that the Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years.  therefore they are not displacing the Arags or stealing their homeland.
And because the learned and especially the mass media is pro-Zionist, people believe sinceerely stuff like this.

This is the worst aspect of Zionism, and has far more oppressive world features tnan even the horrifying Israeli oppression.  Zionists of both the Dems and Gops favor war and oppression if it supports or dovetails with the Likud policies of Aipac, like the Iraqi war or the threats to attack Iran. 

Including thermonuclear war, which would increase the military power of the nuclear powers like Israel and the US.  And they are for ripping off the American people, as they do the Palestinian people, just as Sepharad was for this trillion dollar swindle.

What James Petras calls the ‘Zionist power configuration’ is far more poisonous in its world implications than its institutionalized brutality to Arabs.  It has hijacked not only US foreign policy but domestic policy as well, and is instrumental in imposing a police state to implement its policies.  The thought control bill that would threaten and restrict the Internet was initiated by Jane Harman as part of a Zionist ploy, and passed the house by a vote of 400-6.  It will probably be implemented after the election.  No matter who is elected.

Zionism is the central ideological tenet, along with unregulated Free Interprise, and the need to deceive the people, that unites the Gop neocons and the Dem neolibs.  Sepharad is quite effective in promoting it, but not for making the world a better place.

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By Leefeller, October 8, 2008 at 8:24 am Link to this comment

ITW,

You say you are a devout agnostic?  Having trouble with the “devout” part, connecting the two words seems disturbing to me, unlike bacon and eggs, there is a disconnect,  it would be as if I described myself as a raging dove, if I am a dove.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 8, 2008 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous:

You may not believe this (Sepharad will) but I agree with you on EVERY SINGLE THING, but one.  I think a two-state solution is needed, because Jews and Palestinians sharing Israel won’t work.  A two-state solution will allow tempers to cool, and eventually economic cooperation to take place.

Economics is the real key to peace, if only you can keep the religious nuts suppressed and out of politics: Jew, Moslem, Christian—all of ‘em.  So you need a way to START that economic bridge.  When you have it, the reason for Sharon’s Wall and the other barriers will drop.  But until then, you need a 2-state solution.

BTW, I’m a devout Agnostic, myself.  I see Atheism as cynicism, but Agnosticism as skepticism.

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By Shenonymous, October 8, 2008 at 12:28 am Link to this comment

I’m sorry Sepharad that you think I am anti-Semite.  My Jewish friends would thoroughly disagree with you.  And my Arab friends would not call me Islamophobic.  However, having once been Christian, I would say I am somewhat anti-Christian after seeing the iniquities done in their god’s name.  I am an absolute atheist and find all religions to be excessively irrational.  That doesn’t mean I am not humanistic,  And I don’t live under a rock.  I have stated several times my belief that a shared state between Israel and Palestine is the only solution to the ancient problem between the Israelis and the Arabs.  I think it is no longer relevant who should or should not be there. 

As a people, the Israelis have as much history as do the Palestinians in that region and the fact that the state of Israel was created in 1948 only came after having lived in that area for thousands of years.  And the State of Israel was created with the help of the West because of the strategic Suez Canal and the perceived commercial and military advantage to the West.

But Israel’s existence does not preclude that historically the Arabs lived in that region also.  Your succinct historical account of Jerusalem and the problems among the peoples there is correct.  I have made a study of the Jews and Islam for the past year and am beginning to understand what it is about.  It is about more than religion although religion is used to justify the continued ghastly conflict.  Just as in every such struggle it is about power, control, and greed.  From a non-religious viewpoint, Israel is the underdog.  However they have powerful allies, the United States being one of them, and the United States has a lot of wealthy Jews who push the US government to support Israel.  Not that Israel doesn’t need support in the face of the Arab/Islamic coalition who also have their allies.  Peace has been a condition there but it has been sporadic over the three to four millennia that these factions have inhabited that area.  But peace today seems almost insurmountable given the radical Islamic and the radical Zionist postures.  It is not a simple matter.  A microcosm of that conflict exists right here on the Truthdig forums although it takes the form of verbal exchange.  The paradigms are obvious.  But those of us who are not involved in that conflict occasionally express our views.  I don’t think there is any more or less anti-Semitism in the world than there ever has been.  There is arising anti-Islamism as well, some of which is deserved because of the imperialist intentions, which Israel does not have.  But there are millions of non-militant Islamists in the world.  If the anti-Semites are coming out from under their rocks, the Islamophobics are slithering out as well!

And the Christians are not helping matters.  It looks to me as if they are hoping to cash in on the Israeli/Arab conflict.  Even going so far as to foment even more animosity between Israel and the Arab nations.  Kill two birds with one stone kind of thing.

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By Outraged, October 7, 2008 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

From CNN (Lou Dobbs):

RALPH NADER, (I) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bring them home. A six month negotiated withdrawal deadline. Bring home the soldiers and corporate contractors, give Iraq and its oil back to the Iraqis not the bottom of the insurgency.

During the six months, I should have U.N. sponsored elections and work a little bit of autonomy between Kurds and the Shiites would then unify Iraq which is what they all want. Plus continued humanitarian aid.

Other wise it’s just going to fester. They think that its—the violence is declining but it can explode in any moment if we are still there.

DOBBS: So you want out in ten months—

NADER: Six months.

DOBBS: Sooner than Barack Obama.

NADIR: Well, he’d keep 50,000 soldiers there.

DOBBS: Well, let’s turn to Afghanistan.

NADER: That’s a tougher issue. We should never—we should to have had a multilateral strike force go after the backers of the attackers. Instead, we destabilized the whole country again. And you know Afghanistan is not really a country and their tribal chieftains and it’s a very tough geographically. So I think that the more soldiers we put in there, what the soldiers do? They fight, they destroy, they blow up. So wedding parties get blown up, children and it fans the flame.

DOBBS: So what are we to do?

NADER: I think we’ve got to get out of there.”

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/11/ldt.01.html

Nader on Homeland Security
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Ralph_Nader_Homeland_Security.htm

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By Sepharad, October 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Folktruther—Was following Outraged & Inherit the Wind conversation re Nader when I read your Oct. 6 post. ITW and I basically agree on Israeli-Palestinian issues, and for you to suggest that one or the other is “smarter” isn’t very observant. ITW obviously is a great debater—like my husband and son—and all three more patient than I am. ITW can go on and on, point by point, with you and Robert. I’m not a debater. What you take as “civility” is just journalistic experience. When people say crazy things, try to understand why they believe same. Otherwise, how can you understand enought to respond.

On some points ITW and I may differ but only slightly, concerning what Israel can yield without committing suicide. E.g., I think we need to share Jerusalem even though there is no basis for Islamic attachment to the place but a dream of Mohammed’s in the Koran’s 7th sura, in which he and his horse Barak fly to some unspecified temple in the north where they ride up and talk to all the prophets. That’s it. Moslems pray facing Mecca, so what’s the big deal re Jerusalem? Though not based on any historical incident, through history Arabs have become attached to the place, and Saladin was certainly kinder to the Jews of Jerusalem than the Crusaders were, so why not share now? (As long as we don’t have to accept dhimmihood, second class citizenship). If I were religious I’d feel differently, but when my people arrived in Palestine in 1828 there were Arabs as well as Jews there—not that many of either until much later Herzl Zionists started really transforming the land through agricultural innovation attracting MANY Arabs from as far as Iraq, post-1930. But stil as some Arabs and Jews indigenous to Palestine, why shouldn’t we try to at least share Jerusalem? “Right of return” into Israel proper would be demographic suicide—but leaving the West Bank, except for some of the larger settlements around Jerusalem, seems right. Sharon said the West Bank was no longer necessary for Israel’s defense? Good enough for me.  Israel’s best course—assuming the religious nutcases haven’t driven all of the Palestinians crazy—is to return to the efforts to set up joint economic projects and make sure every Palestinian child gets a real education (instead of the madrassa-ly-Farfel the Suicide Bomber kiddie hero stuff). The Arab countries have made sure the Palestinians never got on their feet, despite all that oil wealth and all that landspace, for their own bloody-selfish reasons and I hope those responsible all go to a hell I don’t believe in. ITW’s suggestion of a Middle Eastern Union like the European Union is brilliant, something many secular Arabs (who’ve been writing UN whitepapers the last few years, criticizing elements of Islamic society). My family there have largely been in Peace Now, but all also in the IDF and some in the intelligence services. None of them “hate Arabs”—but they DID hate the Netanyahus and the Nasrallahs equally. People like Fadel Abdallah, on the other hand, educated and not filled with hate, are the hope of the region, we should do whatever it takes to make a viable second state happen. And quickly. Gaza was a disaster, but Hamas does not run the West Bank. Not yet. 

Patrick Henry doesn’t think the US should support Israel but that doesn’t make him anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel. He’s just more concerned about the U.S., as ITW and I both are.

You, Robert, Shenonymous, otherwise intelligent people, I don’t understand.fine old scholar, Bernard Lewis, a friend of Edward Said, spent his entire life in the Middle East and has written much about it. Not so long ago, he said, “The anti-Semites are coming out from under their rocks. Again.”

There are a couple books coming out I hope to read about the late King of Jordan, both written by Oxford-type Brits with incredible access to the King’s archives.

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By Shenonymous, October 7, 2008 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

Regarding Iraq, Nader/Gonzalez propose a “rapid negotiated withdrawal,” however he doesn’t say with whom he would negotiate nor of what that negotiation would consist on the part of the U.S.

Given Nader’s view of Obama as callous towards the Palestine peace movement and given his own arrogance, it is difficult to see he could ever be invited nor would he want to be part of any presidential administration unless it were his own.

There is nothing said at Nader’s campaign website that discusses homeland security or illegal immigration.  It seems these are two major issues that need to be addressed by any presidential candidate.

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By Outraged, October 7, 2008 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shephard

Your comment: “Obama was right to vote for the thing and I was wrong to make a snap-decision, lacking both expertise or access to any information apart from what’s printed in the media.

I disagree.  I don’t feel ANY of us made snap decisions, I think the congress who voted for the bailout, this administration and also our major party candidates, Obama and McCain did.  There weren’t any hearings held, no scholars were consulted and the American Public’s demands were ignored.  If hearings had been held, we would then have been able to ascertain the best outcome.  This was stealing from the taxpayers to bailout the financial fiasco of corrupt/inept wall street gamblers.

Using fear mongering to ram this thing through without oversight and common sense reasoning has only condoned this environment of corruption.  We also know that this bailout hasn’t alleviated the cause of the problem or helped those who needed help most.  We will likely see this abomination rear its ugly head again soon.

I will not vote for either of the corporate candidates.  I will vote for Nader.

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By Sepharad, October 7, 2008 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Outraged—Thanks; actually I enjoyed all of that work.

Nader’s anger inspired a lot of work on the part of others, but his main problem as a Presidential candidate might damage his own causes by saying what he WANTED to be true but not listening to others who had done the legwork and listened to what people on the ground had to say. I wasn’t one of those “others”—I was always more attuned to FoI oversight while on the Press Project, and didn’t take umbrage at Nader’s harsh comments during his rare brief swoop-ins, as some of my co-workers did, and as did many disillusioned Raiders I encountered when we’d all moved on to different areas.

Inherit the Wind suggested that Nader would be a great advisor or cabinet member or agency head in the Obama administration, and that I would heartily endorse. He knows what he thinks and is certainly not shy about expressing it, which is good because Presidents—except foolish ones like Bush—don’t always “hear” what their best people were telling them. That would never be a problem with Nader.

In an Oct. 4 post I said I’d vote for Nader/Gonzales (as California always goes Democratic anyway) because I was angry with Obama for signing on to the bailout so quickly, letting so many of the high-fliers walk. But judging from all the economic info coming out now, it sounds as if it HAD to be done or middle class and working poor Americans would be in even greater jeopardy than they’ve put us in now. (I would have reacted less if Barney Frank was not frowning so angrily while Nancy Pelosi smiled as if they’d done something right while signing.) Obama was right to vote for the thing and I was wrong to make a snap-decision, lacking both expertise or access to any information apart from what’s printed in the media. I still think Obama appears more above it all than he should be, and I still might vote for Nader IF I’m positive Cal will go Obama. But I don’t think Nader would be a good President.

To answer Leefeller’s rhetorical (I think) question, Nader is not even close to being Harry Truman. Truman had more ability and more humility. I still wonder, however, how it felt to order the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though historians pretty much agree it saved more lives, not just Allies but Japanese as well.

Another question raised by my son-in-law (an Algerian/Portuguese Jew and Apache pilot): how can McCain and Palin hold Obama’s feet to the fire for associating however casually with Bill Ayers when Ayers served time for bombing targets in the U.S. to protest an undeclared war, while McCain made many bombing runs over Vietnam dumping Napalm on CITIES where a pilot, flying that high, had ZERO chance of separating combatants from civilians, guaranteeing massive collateral damage, during the same undeclared war? (Especially considering that both were jailed for their activities and now pursue more peaceable work.) Before Patrick Henry gets mad at me: I do realize McCain was risking his life and following orders, I support US Armed Forces completely, including their families, though I frequently take great issue with what they are asked to do. The Vietnam vet who introduced my husband and me was then, and still does, counseling with vets suffering from PTSD, and says that those who KNOW they didn’t commit murder as opposed to killing in battle tend to come out of it sooner. One of the big problems in Iraq is that soldiers often have no way to make that kind of decision in time since most American soldiers don’t speak Arabic (son-in-law does; it helps on the ground when local Iraqis try to give you information). Obviously speaking Arabic isn’t helpful ENOUGH, as a lot of the people killing each other there all speak Arabic. And non-native speakers have to be really good to detect foreign accents in Arabic. But I’m way off the thread topic here.

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By PatrickHenry, October 7, 2008 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, October 6 at 5:51 pm #

You betcha.

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By Outraged, October 7, 2008 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

Re: Sepharad

In addition, Thank You so much for your work to make this world and this country a better place.

Your comment:
During the period I worked for the Center, I took leave to work with Nader’s Press Project, primarily focused on Sunshine Laws (access for media to coucil meetings, legislative hearings and the like that affected the public but were often closed to public and press).

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By Outraged, October 7, 2008 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Re: Sepharad

Your comment: I don’t remember Nader participating or even expressing interest in the FoI Act push particularly, but would be interested in knowing if he did, and what he did.”

Sepharad, the point I was trying to make isn’t that Nader is “a perfect person” or that he’s “a one-man band”.  ITW, is nit-picking trying to take any credit away from Nader.  I’ve never claimed that Nader has accomplished these things by himself.  I’ve said quite the opposite, some examples from this thread:

the long history Nader has of working legislation through congress, setting up and working with various individuals and groups, taking on LARGE POWERFUL CORPORATIONS and winning gives us MORE reason to believe that Nader will protect and fight for the average American, than his counterparts.”

And I would add, I give my utmost of respect for all those who have worked so hard in this capacity whether it was in association with Nader’s organizations or not!....does it matter!  Credit where credit is due.”

“(From Wiki)Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader’s work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as “Nader’s Raiders” who, under Nader, investigated government corruption, publishing dozens of books with their results:”

In order to achieve this record Nader has worked with MANY people, dealt with BUREAUCRACIES and worked with legislators.”

The reality is that Nader had a hand in all these things along with many people.  He kept it going.  I feel that much of the animosity toward Nader comes from those who worked hard in these organizations yet received little credit in the media.  Nader and his organizations are credited with these things, rightfully so.  But yes, Nader is the face on it.

All legislators have assistance when they create legislation and do not accomplish these things alone.  Many people “behind the scenes” work hard to pass legislation.  Still, it is the legislator who’s name is on it.  This has been true for Nader also.  It doesn’t necessarily mean that this legislator hasn’t worked on it, just that they may have played a different role.

To claim that Nader didn’t dot the “i’s” or cross the “t’s” doesn’t mean he had no hand in it.  If Nader coordinated and oversaw the legislation, or if he chose the right people to accomplish it, still speaks well of Nader.  It absolutely TRASHES the claim “Nader doesn’t work well with people”.

Nader’s intentions are for the betterment of society.  He’s intelligent and I KNOW he’ll fight like crazy (along with others) to stop this corporate takeover of America.  He understands this and is WILLING to fight, unlike the majority party candidates.

I have never heard Nader himself “taking all the credit”.  But this is what he is accused of.  Nader is the familiar FACE of these organizations, but this shouldn’t detract from his contributions.  Nor should it be forgotten to give ample credit for those in the trenches.

In fact…. if there’s ANYONE who thinks “you can’t do it alone” it’s Nader.  The difference is…. Nader is certain IT CAN BE DONE.  And he’s stated that about a million times.

Does it make logical sense to claim Nader doesn’t “work well with others” when he’s formed about 30 organizations.  Reasonably, if I’m not a statistician, but I need one.. I’ll hire one to get the job done, what’s the matter with that.  Let’s say Nader acknowledges someone’s mastery of a topic, and he puts them in charge of that issue… this is A GOOD THING.  Still, this doesn’t mean Nader wasn’t a part of it, which is ITW’s big issue.

ITW has one measuring stick for the people he claims are “worthy” and another one for everyone else.  How ITW comes to his determination of “worthiness”.... is suspect.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 7, 2008 at 4:31 am Link to this comment

Outraged, October 6 at 8:48 pm #

Re: ITW

Your comment: “Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS.  That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around.  Never.  Not ever.”

I’m curious… What makes you SO positive of this…?  I think Nader stands a very good change given the corporate candidate options, especially in a close race.  I absolutely think that at the VERY LEAST 40% of Americans are not happy with the corporate candidates.

Never, say never.  You know how that goes.

***********************************************

Yeah, maybe you’re right.  Cosmologists roughly estimate the life of the universe at 10^200 years.  So far the universe is about 1.5 x10^10 years (15 billion years). Since 1.5 x 10^11 is 150 billion years or 10x longer and 1.5 x 10^12 is 1.5 TRILLION years, 10^200 is beyond comprehension.

Given that time frame, maybe you’re right.

But in my lifetime, or, more importantly, Ralph’s (He’s 73 or so isn’t he), it makes a 120:1 long shot horse look like a sure thing.

Of course, if he could get the voting machine companies to fix it for him….....Nah, even then it won’t happen.

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By Sepharad, October 6, 2008 at 10:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Outraged—I’m not saying you’re wrong about Nader contributing something to the passage of the FoI Act, but do you know exactly what he did? I worked on that for five years as sr. research associate for the Freedom of Information Center, based at the UofMo School of Journalism under Exec Director Paul Fisher, and also in D.C. at our lobbying office run by Sam Archibald. (Fisher and Archibald conceived the idea not too long after WWII’s newly minted intelligence agencies set up a very elaborate system for more classification and withholding of information than these two newsmen thought healthy for our country.) Though the Center addressed many related issues (privacy, freedom of expression, sunshine laws etc.), often challenging individual cases of the classification system’s more ridiculous excesses, the primary aim always was getting a law passed to guarantee access to material not truly damaging to national security—i.e. roughly 80% of what was being classified for many other reasons—and to provide for eventual release on what at a given time was classified material, the date of release depending on the actual need-to-not-know shelf-life of any given material, so that journalists, historians and the public could eventually see what had been going on in their name. During the period I worked for the Center, I took leave to work with Nader’s Press Project, primarily focused on Sunshine Laws (access for media to coucil meetings, legislative hearings and the like that affected the public but were often closed to public and press). I don’t remember Nader participating or even expressing interest in the FoI Act push particularly, but would be interested in knowing if he did, and what he did.

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By Shenonymous, October 6, 2008 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

Pig Fact for the Day:
Many experts consider pigs to be more trainable than dogs or cats.

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By Outraged, October 6, 2008 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Your comment: “Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS.  That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around.  Never.  Not ever.”

I’m curious… What makes you SO positive of this…?  I think Nader stands a very good change given the corporate candidate options, especially in a close race.  I absolutely think that at the VERY LEAST 40% of Americans are not happy with the corporate candidates.

Never, say never.  You know how that goes.

Vote Nader/Gonzales

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By GrammaConcept, October 6, 2008 at 8:52 pm Link to this comment

RE…..Palin…......Professional Sociopath comes to mind….


RE .....the VP “debate”.....

IMO that was the archetypal voices of these archetypes…..:

.......‘reptilian brain meets cerebral cortex’............

Also, to interested persons…....The Keating 5 vid is now available for viewing….

http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/keatingvideo


Strive On, Friends…....

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By Inherit The Wind, October 6, 2008 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, October 6 at 3:09 pm #

I can always count on ITW to slander, misrepresent and out and out act like an arrogant ass to the other posters to this site, especially if you are against Israeli interference in American politics.
****************************

Thanks, PH.  I appreciate the vote of confidence. smile Now would you PLEASE tell Rus-the-Repub the same thing over on the Sarah Palin Attack thread?

(I know it’s all said with respect and friendship….)

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By PatrickHenry, October 6, 2008 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

I can always count on ITW to slander, misrepresent and out and out act like an arrogant ass to the other posters to this site, especially if you are against Israeli interference in American politics.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/activist.html

I’ve voted for Nader twice in previous general elections and believe in his campaign motto ” A vote for me is a vote for yourself”.

I would have liked to see Nader in the debates, where I’m sure he would have changed the topics to more important ones. 

Until such time as Nader runs for office and demonstrates his electability and ability to make the rubber meet the road, I cannot support his campaign anymore, but I will continue to admire him for his accomplishments.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 6, 2008 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

Must have been someone else called me “Windy”...But since you’ve now accused me of being on Obama’s payroll, which is false (Technically, he’s on MY payroll, since I’ve donated to his campaign) I’m not going to apologize.

I checked your link and others.  I said so.  I found NOTHING but a Nader website ASSERTION (unsupported) that Nader was “Instrumental” in bringing about the FOIA.  Yet nowhere does it say how.  You’ve posted the same assertions 3x, but not added ANY information to them.

So I’m done with you. I see enough of Republicans spouting nonsense and refusing to address flaws in it, and just repeating it.

Just so you know: Nader’s never going to be POTUS.  That, I suppose, is the one inevitable conclusion that you cannot get your head around.  Never.  Not ever.

I used to admire Ralph Nader. But IMHO in 2000 he put his ego ahead of his nation’s dire need.  And that will forever be the coda of his career.  He will never escape that.  IMHO, of course. And we all know what opinions are like.

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By Outraged, October 6, 2008 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

No, I did not call you “windy”.  Link to that thread.  It is obvious you are paid Obama campaign staff.  Since you still didn’t address this premise, I’ll post it AGAIN.

“Re: ITW (Mr. “head up my ass”)

Your comment (outside of your rudeness): “What you failed to pick up (and I’ll say it explicitly—though I thought I had) is that running an advocacy NGO is based on a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PARADIGM than running the executive branch of our government.

First using your fictitious logic, only an ex-president would have the “necessary skills” to be president, since only they would have that EXACTING experience.  In addition, using YOUR LOGIC then “this would make them acceptable” somehow.  Yet you DODGED this assertion, AGAIN.

““Another premise you attempt to make is that, somehow if you’ve been an elected official, then “obviously YOU ARE QUALIFIED”… how so?  Is Bush qualified then…how about Clinton, or Bush 1 or Reagan…?  Enlighten me, since I am completely baffled by your assumption…?”

Nader’s Record.  Can the other candidates top this record….?

* Freedom of Information Act

* National Traffic and

* Motor Vehicle Safety Act

* Wholesome Meat Act

* Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act

* Clean Air Act

* Occupational Safety and Health Act

* Consumer Product Safety Act

* Safe Water Drinking Act

* Clean Water Act

* Foreign Corrupt Practices Act

* Mine Health and Safety Act

* Whistleblower Protection Act

I’m going to out on a limb here as suppose that this will not suffice for you either.  Since it is increasing apparent you cannot venture outside YOUR PARADIGM and realize that your determination is not necessarily valid or correct.

In order to achieve this record Nader has worked with MANY people, dealt with BUREAUCRACIES and worked with legislators.

The two major party candidates VOTED in FAVOR of spying on Americans AND gave away TAX DOLLARS, $700 BILLION of them.  GREAT RECORD AND EXPERIENCE THERE…. Obama and McCain could give two shits about taxpayers issues or preferences, in addition, NEITHER called for hearings or listened to ANY outside voice before voting for the bailout.  THEN THEY TAPPED OTHERS TO VOTE IN FAVOR!  So don’t give me that “experience” bullshit.  Cause that’s ALL it is, BULLSHIT.”

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By AlaskanVoter, October 6, 2008 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment

ALASKA GOVERNOR Palin = RECALL!!!
I am a Alaskan life voting Republican. This 2008 Election, I will [with pleasure]  vote Democrat! This Alaska Governor has destroyed “MANY GOOD ALASKAN PEOPLE(s) Professionally and Politically during her “VERY SHORT” term position as Mayor in a small community Wasilla, Ak (Approx 5,000 + residents during her reign) and current Alaska State Governor.(of approx. twenty months).  Whenever Palin is confronted with a question that she does not know, does not have a clue or simply does not want to answer, her indignation which turns to…ANGER…is familiar. McCains’’ V.P. selection Sarah Palin unequivocally has no business being the Alaska Governor, let alone, a USA candidate for Vice President…. Maverick??.....        ****AMERICA SHOULD BE FEARFULLY CONCERNED****. I voted for Sarah Palin in Alaskas 2006 Governor Election. MISTAKE! Never Again… I repeat-NEVER AGAIN!!...Alaska Governor Palin is an absolute Embarrassment to the Alaska People and “IS” proven to be an insatiable Liar!! How can she possibly ASSUME the to possess the ability to clean up America, when she cannot clean the ‘MESS” she has created in Alaska. Yes, A Mess FOR Alaskans to clean up. McCain, you should be ASHAMED of yourself!!!! This victim (palin)has no business in this Presidential Arena.

[read Alaska News-Politics adn.com] 
Posted by AlaskaVoter

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By Inherit The Wind, October 6, 2008 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment

Outraged,

The more you repeat the same things over and over (just like a Republican) and don’t respond to legit questions and criticisms, the more you demonstrate that yes, you DO have your head up your butt.  It makes it hard to read.  It’s not an insult—it’s a description.

The Nader sites assert that Ralph Nader was “instrumental” in the passing of the FOIA of 1966.  Yet nowhere have I found how he was “instrumental”.  Is there a letter he wrote to a key person who was persuaded? Is there a videotape of Nader testifying? SURELY these things would be out there if he was “instrumental”. 

But I can assure you of this: The assertion that “Public Citizen” was instrumental in the passing of FOIA can only be true if Einstein is wrong about Relativity!

(BTW, you never called me “Windy”???)

VolksVehrer:  It’s just like you to say that you assumed the Darfur tragedy was a US/Israeli caused issue. Your lack of being informed on one of the greatest international crises and your assumptions about it are, yet again, typical Marxist weaknesses.  Why learn about Darfur when you already “know” it’s a US/Israeli plot?

You lecturing me on politeness is like Sarah Palin lecturing on how to be classy! Keep it up—I can use a good laugh.

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By Outraged, October 6, 2008 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

Re: ITW (Mr. head up my ass)

“<u>Nader’s organizations</u> are credited with establishing:

The Safe Drinking Water Act
<u>Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)</u>
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
The Consumer Product Safety Commission

http://www.ontheissues.org/Nader_Reader.htm

<u>Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader’s work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as “Nader’s Raiders” who, under Nader, investigated government corruption</u>, publishing dozens of books with their results:

Nader’s Raiders (Federal Trade Commission)
Vanishing Air (National Air Pollution Control Administration)
The Chemical Feast (Food and Drug Administration)
The Interstate Commerce Omission (Interstate Commerce Commission)
Old Age (nursing homes)
The Water Lords (water pollution)
Who Runs Congress? (Congress)
Whistle Blowing (punishment of whistle blowers)
The Big Boys (corporate executives)
Collision Course (Federal Aviation Administration)
No Contest (corporate lawyers)
Destroy the Forest (Destruction of ecosystems worldwide)
Operation: Nuclear (Making of a nuclear missile)

Nader speaks out against the Iraq War at the September 15, 2007 anti-war protest.In 1971, Nader founded the non-governmental organization (NGO) <u>Public Citizen as an umbrella organization for these projects.</u>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Hopefully this isn’t to difficult for you to follow…

I see that first you lie about Nader and now you lie about me.  I’ve never called you names, that’s a lie, better check your crystal ball.  Please link to the threads where I’ve called you names, Mr. “head up my ass”.

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By Folktruther, October 6, 2008 at 10:26 am Link to this comment

I knew, of course, that Sudan was oppressing its south, but it never occurred to me that the ethnic struggle was similar to the Israeli-Palestian oppression.  Since their is oil in Dafur I just assumed that oll the agitation by Zionist supporters was just the usual US-Israeli imperialism.  Which of course it is.

I don’t think classical marxism would consider you a Zionist pig, Inherit,  but I certainly do, especially the way you insult Ouraged.  Take a hint from Sepharad, who is more intelligent than you and thus more dangerous, and try to maintain a modicum of civility to your intellectual superiors.  But I suppose it is useless to appeal to anyone who identifies with murdering, starving and tortuing Palestinians to eschew gutter tactics.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 6, 2008 at 10:01 am Link to this comment

OK,
I figured I’d start checking with the FOIA.  Here’s what I found:
Source after source (ie, Nader fans) say Nader’s NGO, Public Citizen, was instrumental in passing the Freedom of Information Act. 

Yet one thing is very curious.  Nader founded Public Citizen in 1971.  The Freedom of Information Act was passed over Lyndon Johnson’s objections in 1966—FIVE YEARS BEFORE PUBLIC CITIZEN WAS FOUNDED!

Furthermore, other than the oft-repeated mantra that “Ralph Nader was instrumental in get the FOIA passed”, I can’t find any links that show his involvement.  All I find is the connection between Public Citizen and the passage of the FOIA that cannot exist, because the FOIA is passed 5 years before Public Citizen is formed.

So….should I really BOTHER to go through the rest of your list, or, should I assume that since your first item (usually the most important) cannot be substantiated, that I’ll probably find equally loose connections?

Since you’ve called me a WHOLE bunch of names over time, I’m quite amused that somehow you are hurt because I’ve been “rude”.  If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out!

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By Outraged, October 6, 2008 at 9:26 am Link to this comment

Re: ITW (Mr. “head up my ass”)

Your comment (outside of your rudeness): “What you failed to pick up (and I’ll say it explicitly—though I thought I had) is that running an advocacy NGO is based on a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PARADIGM than running the executive branch of our government.

First using your fictitious logic, only an ex-president would have the “necessary skills” to be president, since only they would have that EXACTING experience.  In addition, using YOUR LOGIC then “this would make them acceptable” somehow.  Yet you DODGED this assertion, AGAIN.

”“Another premise you attempt to make is that, somehow if you’ve been an elected official, then “obviously YOU ARE QUALIFIED”… how so?  Is Bush qualified then…how about Clinton, or Bush 1 or Reagan…?  Enlighten me, since I am completely baffled by your assumption…?”


Nader’s Record.  Can the other candidates top this record….?

* Freedom of Information Act

* National Traffic and

* Motor Vehicle Safety Act

* Wholesome Meat Act

* Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act

* Clean Air Act

* Occupational Safety and Health Act

* Consumer Product Safety Act

* Safe Water Drinking Act

* Clean Water Act

* Foreign Corrupt Practices Act

* Mine Health and Safety Act

* Whistleblower Protection Act  

I’m going to out on a limb here as suppose that this will not suffice for you either.  Since it is increasing apparent you cannot venture outside YOUR PARADIGM and realize that your determination is not necessarily valid or correct.

In order to achieve this record Nader has worked with MANY people, dealt with BUREAUCRACIES and worked with legislators.

The two major party candidates VOTED in FAVOR of spying on Americans AND gave away TAX DOLLARS, $700 BILLION of them.  GREAT RECORD AND EXPERIENCE THERE…. Obama and McCain could give two shits about taxpayers issues or preferences, in addition, NEITHER called for hearings or listened to ANY outside voice before voting for the bailout.  THEN THEY TAPPED OTHERS TO VOTE IN FAVOR!  So don’t give me that “experience” bullshit.  Cause that’s ALL it is, BULLSHIT.

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By Shenonymous, October 6, 2008 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

Guess I’m way too irreverent.  Just a hyperbolic wake up call.  No offense meant to the most honorable American military and Islamists alike.  Both sides have their heroes.  Guess it is a matter of perception.  Really.  It’s just that seeing tanks and buildings blown up by neu cu lear weapons is so lame.  What is the reticence for telling the trooth?

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By Shenonymous, October 6, 2008 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

maxp – a kind of an overthetop youtube vid about a Palin armageddon that doesn’t really show much in the way of human destruction, more like a boys’ game of blow’emup.  Let’s see more dead bodies of American soldiers and dead Arabs please!  Let’s get real and really down and dirty.

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By Leefeller, October 6, 2008 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

If Sarah Palin really, as one poster stated, oozes fertility and we can pretend she is Snow White, I may find it amusing when she names her White House 7 kids after the dawrfs, amusing enough I may even vote for her. 

Let’s face it, the heart beat thing is not even a valid point anymore, she will become president, even if she has to out McCain herself. Hell, she could simply do it by seducing him, (a picture making me reach for my upchuck bucket) depending on how far along McCain preforms before he becomes another Republican statistic like Rockefeller, unfortunately we would all know if she names her White House, first born “Dopey”.

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By maxp, October 6, 2008 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

Sarah is a heartbeat away from the Presidency, and given the four cancer scares her superior has had, this puts her odds quite high of actually assuming the Presidency.  That the Republican Party could so shamelessly put forward a candidate so utterly lacking in political stature and so lacking in any understanding of the larger policy issues is shocking enough, but the candidate has subsequently shown herself to be totally unable to lead or formulate policy and instead simply parrots the ‘talking points’ of the platform.  She looks pretty, but talks dumb, and in so doing, defeats her own attempt to prove how useful ‘Middle-American’ values are to the system.  Her refusal to answer “difficult” questions in the debate, and instead respond with her prepared talking points indicates how unable to cope she would be in a complex political or international negotiation.  Such a candidate is utterly unfit for office, and she should be removed from the Republican Party platform rapidly in order to restore some confidence in the Party’s goals for this great nation.  Finally, I suggest all our fears are succinctly summed up by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abZLjIpHzj8

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By Leefeller, October 6, 2008 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

Is Nader a Harry Truman?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 6, 2008 at 4:00 am Link to this comment

Outraged, October 5 at 8:06 pm #

Re: ITW

I noticed you hadn’t answered this either..

“In addition ITW, you attempt to make the premise that working for the people, as a consumer advocate is somehow unworthy.  I have to call out your reasoning here… how do you come to this conclusion?  This is the HIGHEST of credentials, not something to be marginalized!”

>> And…..?
**************************

It’s getting mildly annoying that you never bothered to READ what I wrote, or to process. I’ll answer this one because it’s the most blatantly obvious:

IF you bothered to read what I wrote you would glean that I have NOTHING against advocacy—I think it’s a fine thing.  Nothing “unworthy” about it.

What you failed to pick up (and I’ll say it explicitly—though I thought I had) is that running an advocacy NGO is based on a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PARADIGM than running the executive branch of our government.

Also, running advocacy NGOs totally unprepares one for dealing with Congress, a co-equal partner in government FULLY CAPABLE OF SHUTTING THE PRESIDENT DOWN!

Now, I’ve said THAT before and YOU, Outraged, have been the one dodging THAT.

So I’ll ask it again: What management tools has Nader acquired in his 45 or 50 years of advocacy that prepare him for:

a) Running the Federal bureaucracy? (remember: an NGO totally follows its leader’s vision and will—the Fed Govt doesn’t)
b) dealing with Congress?

I submit, AGAIN, that NOTHING Nader has EVER done is relevant for either a) or b).

What Nader COULD be good at is being an adviser to the President, but his personality ego would have him resigning in a rage within a month when his opinions weren’t seen as God’s commands to Moses on the mountain.

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By Sepharad, October 5, 2008 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Inherit the Wind & Patrick Henry—In ‘02 I saw a grizzly bear run across a single-foot trail in Canada followed by, in just a few seconds, a running moose. (My mare Margareta and I were temporarily lost, poking around for a ridable section of the Klondike Trail about 50 miles northwest of Athabaska. We were just about 5 yards from the little trail when grizzly tore across it; poor M. had barely recovered her composure when the moose, looming large though though not actually rearing its head—this wasn’t Palin’s Alaska—rushed by apparently chasing the bear, such a dislocation of the prey animal’s settled order of things that M. sat right down for a split-second before her sense of herself brought her to her feet.  A longtime admirer off the smart, powerful, nearly indestructible grizzly bear I was shocked that if could have been panicked by a four-legged ruminant.)

Now I’m shocked again. Caribou barbie indeed. NYTimes quoted some late-night host riffing that Palin’s debate was such a success that the Republicans want to flip her on top and McCain as #2. A creationist who memorizes well and has the president of Pakistan flirting with her. Does make you think.

Folktruther: Your comments on Europe and its paradisical lack of race, class and economic problems—plus its virginal birth without base motives were very liberating. Now that I know that your comments are based on very little knowledge I’ll feel free to ignore your other diatribes. (Congratulations on looking up Sudan’s Darfur: it a step in the right direction.)

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

You didn’t address this either…..  are you…what did you call it… “dodging the issue”...hmmmm.

Buck up, my friend.  Times a’wastin.  Or is it that you’ve run out of viable rhetoric, anything which could be possibly be REASONABLY swallowed.  My question:

“Another premise you attempt to make is that, somehow if you’ve been an elected official, then “obviously YOU ARE QUALIFIED”… how so?  Is Bush qualified then…how about Clinton, or Bush 1 or Reagan…?  Enlighten me, since I am completely baffled by your assumption…?”

Again…let the people decide, Ralph Nader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLYyAh1BDtE&feature;=related

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

I noticed you hadn’t answered this either..

“In addition ITW, you attempt to make the premise that working for the people, as a consumer advocate is somehow unworthy.  I have to call out your reasoning here… how do you come to this conclusion?  This is the HIGHEST of credentials, not something to be marginalized!”

>> And…..?

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 9:03 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

I forgot to add this to the last post.  You hadn’t answered it… I’m curious.

“Consider this, the democratic party used to be FOR THE PEOPLE, the corporations slithered their way inside and when Nader stood up, FOR THE PEOPLE, this same party ostracized him.  Who was behind this…?  Who despises Nader so much that they would do such a thing…?  Who hates what Nader does…?  Who would hold a grudge of this magnitude…?  Who does Nader always reveal…?

Now consider, who started this lie of lies, who smeared Nader’s good name, and who would have such an interest to take the time and money to do it, who could BUY the medium to do it, and who in the end stands to benefit if Nader is marginalized….?

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Your comment: “So I suggest you get your head out of your ass and look at Nader as he really is and how he fits into the nation.  Plus, why he isn’t competent to hold the office of President.  I believe he will be as ineffectual as George W Bush, at least.  Probably more.”

My “head” is not in my ASS.  Your comment illuminates the falsity of your earlier assertion, which was:

“Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.”

It is easy to recognize, that it is YOU who does the name calling and denigration of any opinion NOT to your liking, not me.

In this regard, I am wondering who SIGNS your paycheck, Mr. “head” up my ASS.  For “a few pieces of silver”.... some people will do anything.

Then of course, there are those that shine in this regard, From Wiki:

GM tried to discredit Nader, hiring private detectives to tap his phones and investigate his past, and hiring prostitutes to trap him in compromising situations. GM failed to uncover any wrongdoing, and never explained resorting to smear tactics instead of defending the car in the popular press, where the company had considerable corporate influence. GM’s avoidance of technical journals makes more sense, as it was well known among auto engineers that the early (1960-64) Corvair’s swing axle suspension handled miserably. Upon learning of GM’s actions, Nader successfully sued the company for invasion of privacy, forced it to publicly apologize, and USED MUCH OF HIS $284,000 NET SETTLEMENT TO EXPAND HIS CONSUMER RIGHTS EFFORTS.  (emphasis mine)

Who signs you paycheck ITW…?

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By Inherit The Wind, October 5, 2008 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

Thank you, Outraged:
You’ve helped my point.

Nader is a leader, who leads advocacy NGOs.  As you’ve so nicely shown.  I have no problem with that.  I simply do not see it as preparation for the two main day-to-day tasks the President has:
1) Managing a bureaucracy that was there before he came and will be there after he leaves that is not dedicated to his “vision”
2) Cooperating and compromising with Congress.

To do this a president must be flexible, able to compromise, wheel and deal, and, most importantly lead and work with his opponents.

In 45 years I’ve never seen Ralph Nader show one SHRED of ability to do either of these things.

Your own citations precisely buttresses my argument.

So I suggest you get your head out of your ass and look at Nader as he really is and how he fits into the nation.  Plus, why he isn’t competent to hold the office of President.  I believe he will be as ineffectual as George W Bush, at least.  Probably more.

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Consider that Nader specifically, but also all those who worked with or for him CHANGED America, FOR THE BETTER.  To make ANY insidious claim otherwise is ludacris.  Nader worked FOR us, not against us.

He did not do this alone, and he’s never claimed that.  I don’t think Obama, McCain or Nader have to have a claim some sort of perfection superseding all others, but to denigrate YOUR TRIED AND TRUE, BEST ADVOCATE is outrageous.

Consider this, the democratic party used to be FOR THE PEOPLE, the corporations slithered their way inside and when Nader stood up, FOR THE PEOPLE, this same party ostracized him.  Who was behind this…?  Who despises Nader so much that they would do such a thing…?  Who hates what Nader does…?  Who would hold a grudge of this magnitude…?  Who does Nader always reveal…?

Now consider, who started this lie of lies, who smeared Nader’s good name, and who would have such an interest to take the time and money to do it, who could BUY the medium to do it, and who in the end stands to benefit if Nader is marginalized….?

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

ITW:

Your comment: “Show me where Ralph Nader has managed anything but an advocacy group.  Show me where Nader has shared power with anyone.  Show me where Nader has actually engaged in intellectual discussion rather than just putting forth his views as-is, take-it-or-leave it.

Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader’s work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as “Nader’s Raiders” who, under Nader, investigated government corruption, publishing dozens of books with their results:

Nader’s Raiders (Federal Trade Commission)
Vanishing Air (National Air Pollution Control Administration)
The Chemical Feast (Food and Drug Administration)
The Interstate Commerce Omission (Interstate Commerce Commission)
Old Age (nursing homes)
The Water Lords (water pollution)
Who Runs Congress? (Congress)
Whistle Blowing (punishment of whistle blowers)
The Big Boys (corporate executives)
Collision Course (Federal Aviation Administration)
No Contest (corporate lawyers)
Destroy the Forest (Destruction of ecosystems worldwide)
Operation: Nuclear (Making of a nuclear missile)

In addition ITW, you attempt to make the premise that working for the people, as a consumer advocate is somehow unworthy.  I have to call out your reasoning here… how do you come to this conclusion?  This is the HIGHEST of credentials, not something to be marginalized!  And I would add, I give my utmost of respect for all those who have worked so hard in this capacity whether it was in association with Nader’s organizations or not!....does it matter!  Credit where credit is due.

Another premise you attempt to make is that, somehow if you’ve been an elected official, then “obviously YOU ARE QUALIFIED”... how so?  Is Bush qualified then…how about Clinton, or Bush 1 or Reagan…?  Enlighten me, since I am completely baffled by your assumption…?

Ralph Nader:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLYyAh1BDtE&feature=related

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By Inherit The Wind, October 5, 2008 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, October 5 at 1:47 pm #

Well, you went on and on about Sudan, Inherit, so I looked it up and, by God, you’re right!  The nothern Arabs are oppressing the southern Africans in exactly the same way that the Israeli Jews are oppressing the Palestinians.  It just shows you, even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while.

What threw me off was Bush considering them Terrorists and since he is a known liar about everything I didn’t pay any attention.

The main oppression of Saudi Arabia is gender, as it tends to be in all religious societies.  I didn’t realize you were mostly bigoted against Arabs rather than Moslims because Iran is ruled by Persian and Zionists were fostering a war againt it.
******************************

I know, I know this has NOTHING to do with the VP debate.

So you went and looked up about Darfur. Well, a big happy whooptie doo for you!  I would guess that only Sarah Palin and you didn’t know about Darfur—it’s been a serious disaster since CLINTON was president, yeah, 8 years or more, and you just found out about it.  Where ya been, you political genius, you?

If you didn’t know about Darfur then you have NO business lecturing ANYBODY about issues in the Arab world.  In fact, there have been civil wars in Sudan for the last 40 years.  And Darfur has been the most brutal—like Rwanda, but drawn out, over many years.  Even Condaleeza Rice and Dumbya know about it!

As for hating Arabs—I don’t. I just hate their governments and the fact that only in Lebanon has there been anything resembling a TRUE democracy.

As for Iran, I have argued that we have BLOWN key opportunities to make peace with Iran, that Israel and Iran are natural allies, not enemies, and that Iran would do far better to have the US as an ally now that Russia is feeling its oats again.  But I’ll bet you never noticed that the two nations north of Iran used to be Soviet republics—until 1989 Iran had a 900 mile (or so) border with THE SOVIET UNION!

As for the Saudis, the suppression of women is the MOST obvious.  They suppress all minorities and ALL religions but Islam.  If you are not a Sunni Arab you are, by definition an inferior subject with less rights than a Sunni Arab—much worse than what Israel is condemned for.

I also see Israel launching a pre-emptive attack on Iran as very, very dangerous, totally unlike the attack launched years ago against Iraq’s nuclear development sites.

See?  I just don’t fit your Marxist stereotype of a
Zionist pig…and I don’t wear lipstick either!

Show me where Ralph Nader has managed anything but an advocacy group.  Show me where Nader has shared power with anyone.  Show me where Nader has actually engaged in intellectual discussion rather than just putting forth his views as-is, take-it-or-leave it.

I don’t know Obama will do the things we need. I DO know John McCain will not. I DO know that Obama will not appoint another Scalia or Thomas to the USSC.  I DO know that John McCain has says he WILL appoint someone like Scalia or Thomas.  I also know Stevens is 88, Souter wants to go back home, and Ginzberg is not the healthiest lady on the planet.  I expect that in the next 4 years one of those 3 will leave. If not then, then DEFINITELY in the following 4 years…in 2016, if he’s still alive and functional, Stevens will be 96.  I want Obama making those appointments, not McCain and (it’s too horrible to contemplate) not Palin!

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By Folktruther, October 5, 2008 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

Well, you went on and on about Sudan, Inherit, so I looked it up and, by God, you’re right!  The nothern Arabs are oppressing the southern Africans in exactly the same way that the Israeli Jews are oppressing the Palestinians.  It just shows you, even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while.

What threw me off was Bush considering them Terrorists and since he is a known liar about everything I didn’t pay any attention.

The main oppression of Saudi Arabia is gender, as it tends to be in all religious societies.  I didn’t realize you were mostly bigoted against Arabs rather than Moslims because Iran is ruled by Persian and Zionists were fostering a war againt it.

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Your comment: “You’ve dodged the issue: “Criticism” isn’t “Compromise” or “Capitulation”.  I’m not talking about compromise or capitulation. I’m talking about dialogue, discussion and the ability to accept and evaluation criticism. Ralph Nader has NEVER shown any ability to do these things.”

I haven’t “dodged” the issue, you have by ignoring the portion of my post that specifically dealt with your comment.  In addition, in your original comment those that you have labeled “Naderites” you claimed, “Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.”  My response was,

“As for name calling, your accusation is without merit.  I’ve challenged Obama supporters who have attempted to skew my words, called me names and of course, like yourself have claimed, “Neither tolerates criticism”.  However, “the proof is in the pudding” as they say, so your “lashing out” with this comment, ”Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.” shows your deliberate attempt to skew the facts to fit your message.”

You’ve also made other questionable assertions such as: “Ralph Nader has NEVER shown any ability to do these things.

Qualify that.

Qualify this also: “Everyone who who works for him (nobody works with him)

And this: “Nader will lecture and harangue them but never compromise.”

Your comment: “But throwing away your vote on Nader will NOT bring these things to pass.  It can only prevent them happening.”

Again… this is mere speculation.  Where’s your PROOF Obama WILL do this.  We have more reason to assume Obama WILL NOT do these things, than we have reason to assume he will.

In contrast, the long history Nader has of working legislation through congress, setting up and working with various individuals and groups, taking on LARGE POWERFUL CORPORATIONS and winning gives us MORE reason to believe that Nader will protect and fight for the average American, than his counterparts.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 5, 2008 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

VolksVehrer:

No, he was Jewish and very active in the Civil Rights movement.  But he was an asshole.  The first Muslims I met were there—they were Pakistani and as nice as anyone could be.  I don’t think ANYONE could have taken away a negative from those two counselors.  I certainly didn’t.

You are so blind and such a fanatic you can’t think straight.  I’m no fan of AIPAC, nor of the extremists who want an expansionist Israel.  But to you, anyone who doesn’t want Israel destroyed is a Zionist bigot.

I also am not anymore anti-Moslem than I am anti-Christian or anti-Jewish or anti-Hindu.  I AM anti-extremist, and anti-fanatic.  I am also anti-believing that one religion can have 23-30 nations, but another can’t even have one or they are “bigots”.

You NEVER EVER, EVER will acknowledge that the Saudis and Sudanese are bigoted, biased, murderous, much less the truth: Nothing Israel has done compares to the evil the Sudanese regime has done in Darfur.

Or do you think the genocide in Darfur is OK, because the Israelis are (somehow) worse?

Why won’t you address the hypocrisy of the Arab Moslem regimes?  How about the Russians in Chechnya (and before in Afghanistan)?

To you, and all your ilk, the standard of judgment of Israel is NEVER to be applied to other nations, especially Moslem nations.  Every time I ask this, you respond by calling me a “Zionist bigot”.  All I can infer is it’s only a crime if a Jew does it.

Please answer that and see if you can use facts and logic and not just call me a “Zionist bigot”.  If you can’t you will reveal that you are a colossal hypocrite.

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By Folktruther, October 5, 2008 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

You know, Ihherit, I remember that camp director story from years ago and someplace else.  Either that camp director was a consistent asshole, in humiliating kids,  or, more likely, it had a great effect on you.  Are yhu saying that’s what turned you into a Zionist bigot?  Was he a Muslim camp director?

On the other hand, you are quite right, the FISA vote was the worst thing that Obama and the Dems have done.  Obama not only broke his promise to filibuster, he voted for the bill and voted AGAINST the filibuster.

He and the Dems obviously accept lawless spying on the American population and consequently, a bipartisan police state.  This will be increasingly fostered by the Zionist Jane Harmon’s thought control bill, passed 400-6 in the house, which the Senate will most likely pass after the election.

Aipac, et al not only wants war abroad, it wants a police state at home.  You can’t oppose a police state effectively, Inherit,  without opposing the forces that are installing it.  Including the Zionist forces.

That is why I am an Extremist, Inherit.  You appear to sincerely be against a police state but do not attack the people supporting it.  And you may well be sincerely for a two state solution,  but your racism against Arabs prevents its implementation.  As it did Olmert.  He knew what had to be done, but Zionist racism prevented its implementation.

That is why I don’t think a two state solution is possible; the Likud strategy leads rather to an ethnic cleansing and mass murder that Zionists like you will accept, just as the Dems accept a police state and the consequent torture and murder it entails.

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By omop, October 5, 2008 at 8:06 am Link to this comment

It should be quite evident by now that who ever thought up the Sarah Palin tactic is good at he/she does.

Its like John McCain has become a shadaow. Its like the issues that need to be addressed are now limited to “did she or did she not win the debate; is she a winker or a blinker; etc,.

To use an operatic area. “la comedia et finita”.

What all Americans are facing in the coming years must be addressed by the main candidates by the asking of tough down to earth questionings.

IMO. and based on the single action taken so far by the two main candidates [the naming of their choice for VP] I venture to say that McCain choice is an insult to the voters of this nation that he claims to have defended from his suite at the Saigon Hilton for several years. And therefore since the two real choices the voter has, have no chance in hell of winning it will come down to the lesser evil of the demo. and the socalled repub.

Truthdig might do all of us more than a favor and determine what is really on the mind of America’s voters and put them in a questionnaire and request answers from both McCain and Obama. I know its naive but at the rate this circus is going its worth a shot.

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By Shenonymous, October 5, 2008 at 7:19 am Link to this comment

The notion that the Democrats control Congress is a mistake.  If simple majority is all that is needed then perhaps they can pass legislation.  Some if not many bills require 2/3 majority and if the Republicans are lockstep partisan Democrats have gone to hell.  That is what has usually happened.  Often, if not frequently, Democrats and Republicans alike play the voting game to play politics.  Since Republicans are not the simple majority in either Senate or House, there are other things they do to woo Democrats to their side, either they have good enough arguments or rich lobbyists come in to “buy” votes either with money or power.  At the moment there are 49 Democratic seats plus two Independents, 49 Republican.  In the House, 53.6% are Democratic or 233 and 202 or 46.4% Republican.  I suggest that if there is interest in the legislative process in Congress a visit to the site:
http://corporate.cq.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=231
might help.

Of course, even if Democrats pass their bills, resolutions, etc., they still have partisan presidents or idiot ones to contend with.  The power of the president may be overridden but then again it might depend on a new vote to pass.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 5, 2008 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

Folktruther, October 5 at 4:37 am #

You certainly can’t say that I am not interested in compromise, Inherit.  My policy NATIONALIZE THE BANKS! HANG THE BANKERS! is not a rigid one.  I might consider the possiblity of not hanging evey one of the bankers, in the interests of promoting consensus.  Or even hanging any of them, even though this kind of extremism is far too prevalent in the US.

Similarly I think abortion should be MANDATORY for right wingers, since they are obviously not fit to raise children.  But should they cease attempting to criminalize women who exercise their reproductive rights, possibly something else can be worked out.

I am always in favor of compromise, Inherit, except of course with Zionist bigots like yourself.  Compromise yes, obscenity no.
************************************

You shouldn’t drink and post, VolksVehr.

I won’t attempt to defend myself against your absurd charge, because to you ANYONE who wants a two-state solution rather than Israel’s destruction is a “bigot”.  Curious, that.  I don’t think you’ve read a single post. Why bother? The Ultimate Marxist ALWAYS knows what the “counter-revolutionary” is thinking, and what the C/R “means” no matter what he says.

I grew up around Marxists, went to a summer camp a Socialist friend nick-named “Camp Stalin”.  I heard all that crap all my life.  At age 10 I asked the camp director a question he couldn’t answer, so he called me names to make fun of a 10 year old in front of the entire camp.  And so, my disillusionment with the angelic quality of the Progressive Left began.

Unlike many who grew up with the Civil Rights and Anti-Viet Nam movements, I didn’t become cynical about that goals.  I didn’t throw out the baby with the bath water. I didn’t become a Conservative.  But I sure as hell learned to distrust the denizens of the movements and recognize the danger signs of extremists.  Like you.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 5, 2008 at 5:39 am Link to this comment

Outraged:

You’ve dodged the issue: “Criticism” isn’t “Compromise” or “Capitulation”.  I’m not talking about compromise or capitulation. I’m talking about dialogue, discussion and the ability to accept and evaluation criticism. Ralph Nader has NEVER shown any ability to do these things.

As President, you must work with 100 Senators, of which 40+ or even 50+ are of the opposite party. Then there are the 435 Congresspersons who break about the same way.  Nader will lecture and harangue them but never compromise.  As such, he would either be another Bush, that is if Congress remains spineless, or unable to achieve ANYTHING because they would never pass his legislation.

Additionally, he would be executive over a bureaucracy that is mainly administrative.  Fill it with partisans, as Bush has done, and you get a corrupt, incompetent bureaucracy.  But don’t, and you have agency after agency where the agents (we hope) follow the Congressional mandate for that agency, not the President’s biased political agenda.

Nader is an advocate.  Everyone who who works for him (nobody works with him) is a devout advocate as well.  This is a fine business model for an advocacy NGO, but a perfectly lousy one for running a government.

***********************************

Obama voted against the interests and the wishes of the American People regarding FISA and the bailout.  That is the more pressing issue.  Why do you disregard it..?

****************************

I don’t disregard it.  But that isn’t even vaguely the topic of this thread.  Actually, this is the most disturbing actions Obama has taken.  He’s not the only one.  I live in NJ and BOTH my idiot Senators voted for it as well—and I wrote them demanding an explanation.

This is, of course, the most valid criticism of the Democrats in Congress: Why, when you hold a majority, did you continue to cave in to Bush on the most outrageous legislation?  FISA is a perfect example.  The 1978 FISA is disturbing enough, but there is NO evidence that the safeguards built into it were clogging the ability of the Executive branch to protect the nation.

Had there been a viable alternative, I would take it. Ralph Nader is NOT a viable alternative.  So I hope that an Obama landslide will give more progressive Democratic Senators and Congresspersons the “oomph” to be able to re-visit FISA and fix it.

While they are at it, they should do away with the “Unitary Presidency” for once and for all.  Even more, they need to explicitly limit what signing statements can and cannot do, and reinforce that signing statements have NO legal validity or force.

But throwing away your vote on Nader will NOT bring these things to pass.  It can only prevent them happening.

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By Folktruther, October 5, 2008 at 5:37 am Link to this comment

You certainly can’t say that I am not interested in compromise, Inherit.  My policy NATIONALIZE THE BANKS! HANG THE BANKERS! is not a rigid one.  I might consider the possiblity of not hanging evey one of the bankers, in the interests of promoting consensus.  Or even hanging any of them, even though this kind of extremism is far too prevalent in the US.

Similarly I think abortion should be MANDATORY for right wingers, since they are obviously not fit to raise children.  But should they cease attempting to criminalize women who exercise their reproductive rights, possibly something else can be worked out.

I am always in favor of compromise, Inherit, except of course with Zionist bigots like yourself.  Compromise yes, obscenity no.

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By Outraged, October 5, 2008 at 12:23 am Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Your comment: “I noticed in this discussion one thing about Naderites, and I realized it was true of Nader as well.  Neither tolerates criticism.  Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.”

There is a huge chasm between compromise and capitulation.  Simply because the talking point is “compromise” does not in fact make it so.  Obama capitulated (along with others) on the FISA legislation.  Obama ENDORSED the $700 Billion bailout.  All sources are claiming Obama, McCain and Bush were instrumental in it’s passage the second time in the House.

Yet, according to Kucinich @ Democracy Now:

“Well, you know, that implies that you would accept the underlying premise. I reject the underlying premise that we needed this bill. And as a matter of fact, that we’re putting this up before an adjournment in an election season shows that Congress is being put under extraordinary pressure to bail out Wall Street. We haven’t looked at any alternatives, Amy. This is—you know, it isn’t as though, if you had a liquidity crisis, that—you know, a real one—that you’d start to look at all the alternatives. We haven’t done that. We have a bill here, a bill of more than a hundred pages, that we haven’t had a single hearing on the bill, you know—on the concept, yes, on what Paulson and Bernanke asked for initially. But, you know, we need to have hearings on this. There’s 400 economists and three Nobel Prize-winning economists who have said, “Whoa, wait a minute! What are you doing? Why are you rushing this?” You know, this thing doesn’t smell right, frankly.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/is_this_the_united_states_congress

Obama AND OTHERS rejected the advice of these economists, so who then… is taking the UNCOMPROMISING position?

As for name calling, your accusation is without merit.  I’ve challenged Obama supporters who have attempted to skew my words, called me names and of course, like yourself have claimed, “Neither tolerates criticism”.  However, “the proof is in the pudding” as they say, so your “lashing out” with this comment, “Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.” shows your deliberate attempt to skew the facts to fit your message.

Obama voted against the interests and the wishes of the American People regarding FISA and the bailout.  That is the more pressing issue.  Why do you disregard it..?

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By Outraged, October 4, 2008 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

Your comment: “While you continue to lump all corporations into one evil demon, which I think is wrong-headed, because that configuration is a chimera.  The trick is that only specific corporations can be held responsible. It isn’t seen that indictment of a nebulous whole is the trap most everyone who are imprecise falls into when complaining about a problem that is megalithic.

That’s not what I said.  I said “The corporations, especially the large multi-nationals, are the underlying cause for the mess we’re in.”  I agree that specific corporations can be held responsible, however if others have not been engaging in activities which are against anti-trust laws, off-shore tax evasion, and buying off congressional members (this is why corporate personhood needs to be abolished), the likelihood of regulatory measures affecting them would be minimal, possibly non-existent.

As for the “nebulous whole trap” you speak of, playing this as a game of semantics, doesn’t address the issue.  I believe you understood my position and my meaning from reading your posts and also from responding to some of your posts.  But if you prefer, I will attempt a more exacting, succinct position in the future.

Fair business practices, between small business and large, and between business in general and the consumer will not suffer because of regulatory measures.  Only those who profit from UNFAIR practices will be affected, the rest will be enhanced.

And I agree… That on most of these issues, we agree.  Our disagreement, is our choice of the best person to address this at the presidential level, from those we have to choose from.

I see it as, “the writing is on the wall” and I’m “gauging” that you see it as, “there’s still something there to salvage or consider regarding Obama”.

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By air jordans, October 4, 2008 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

GrammaConcept, I have visited most of the sites you posted. good articles.

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By Inherit The Wind, October 4, 2008 at 10:03 pm Link to this comment

I noticed in this discussion one thing about Naderites, and I realized it was true of Nader as well.  Neither tolerates criticism.  Both lash out at critics with bitter name-calling and aren’t interested in exploring alternate ideas, aren’t interested in compromise.  These are two qualities that doom any president to failure. As evidence, I offer the regime of George W. Bush. If that’s not enough, I offer the regimes of Richard M. Nixon, and Lyndon B. Johnson.

Presidents who respond to criticism, any and all criticism, with bitter attacks on the critics, going as far as public attacks that would normally be slanderous, fail as presidents.

Since Nader is clear of this same character of total intolerance of criticism, he is, automatically, regardless of policies, inadequate to be President.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment

GrammaConcept, I just visited all of the sites you posted.  Wonderful, and thank you.

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By GrammaConcept, October 4, 2008 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

I’m on a roll…..you cab be, too….’-):


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/

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By GrammaConcept, October 4, 2008 at 8:44 pm Link to this comment

....and then there’s
this:

http://southerncrossreview.org/62/obama-newyorker.htm

and this..(!):

http://www.themudflats.net/

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By GrammaConcept, October 4, 2008 at 8:37 pm Link to this comment

This debate actually was the archetypal voices of:

…..reptillian brain meets cerebral cortex….

Archetypes Incarnate, I say!!


Strive On!!

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By jackpine savage, October 4, 2008 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

Folktruther is referring to things i’ve said previously and elsewhere.

I lived in Russia during the late 90’s, and paid close attention to it for many years before that. So i got to see what many refer to as “the shock doctrine” applied to a developed nation firsthand. I’ll be the first to admit that i’m not exactly objective on the matter, but i see certain similarities between the Russia of then and what we may well have coming here in the States.

All the debt of the USSR came back to bite Russia on the ass. The bankers wanted their money and it essentially came out of the pockets of the people. There was the great privatization of anything and everything; most of it was swooped up for pennies on the dollar by a handful of well-connected individuals. These individuals then tended to sell the cheaply purchased assets and leave the country with the proceeds. (I’ve always found it strange that Wall Street went towards the stratosphere at about the same time the collective wealth of Russia left the country.)

It was that old saw about privatizing the profits and socializing the losses. I didn’t see much of the profits: armed guards, armored Land Rovers, an assassination here and there. But i sure saw what the socialized losses: everywhere people with nothing…or less than nothing.

To be sure, we aren’t there yet and i hope it isn’t true…but it worked really well (at least until Putin came along) so i can see ‘them’ giving it another go on a larger scale.

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By Jim Mamer, October 4, 2008 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Maybe it is a minor point in an article focused on that insipid VP “debate,” but FDR did not pick Harry Truman. The Senator was forced on a very sick FDR by Democratic Party leaders afraid that the sitting vice-president, Henry Wallace, was not sufficiently anti-communist and anti-Soviet.

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By Folktruther, October 4, 2008 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

I’m glad you asked, Dr Shenon, that’s the only way to learn.  The ruling class are those families that own the means of production, including the mass media that produces the mainstream truth, and the financial corporations as well. 

This definition is actually not orignal with me, but has been previously accepted by a few hundred milliion truthers over the past century and a half.  It is, however, understandable that you might not be familiar with it, since marxism has been ideologically repressed in the American learned and mass media.

The ruling class comprises a fraction of a percent of the population, now noticibly richer since they ripped off the US treasury for a trillion dollars.
Some turthers feel that a world ruling class is developing, which would make Jackpine’s notion of raping the US more understandable, since the ruling class may be identifying with a global class rather than the American ruling class.

Monceau- I’ve been to Europe off and on for decades, and I am kind of whitish-brown, especially in the summer.  I was referring to UNDERSTANDING racism as being simple.  Doing something about it is, as you imply, much more difficult.

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By Leefeller, October 4, 2008 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

If it smells like a dead skunk

Jackpine,’

Right on,

“Nader’s swell, but i still question why he doesn’t seem to do much party building between quixotic runs for the presidency.”

For what is worth, the only thing Nader is doing is promoting the healthy need for a third party, especially in the minds of a few of us and for people inclined or leaning toward progressive ideas.  Most people like Nader who use their cloke of being celebrities, usually get into politics through normal channels, like run for offices as Governors, Congress or even Senate, maybe even like Palin start at the PTA and work their way up to higher offices. 

Ronald Regain was a bad actor but shined people on and kissed ass all the way up his ladder of alleged political success.  Now, has Nader ever run for a political office other then president?  Must say I know little about him except for his consumer stances.  Seems to me if he is serious, he would have more backing and support, maybe even through the Democrat party like Kucinich, though we saw what happened to him.

If we are going to have a third party with some teeth, supporters of a third party need to get off their asses and quit whining like Nader and get some teeth, develop a base and make it grow.  Otherwise they will be doomed to continue sitting out real politics as they have been, and only be the occasional spoilers, but maybe that is their only plan?

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By moineau, October 4, 2008 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment

folktruther, have you spent much time in europe and are you a person of color? if racism was simple, we could actually have made more headway then we have today.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther to jackpine savage – Your view that the US ruling class may be turning the US into a third world country like it did Russia has been echoed by a number of writers.  I think you may very well be right.

Is that your view jackpine savage?  Somehow I missed that in your post.  Would you please elucidate?

By the way, Folktruther, exactly who makes up the ‘ruling class’ in America?

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By Folktruther, October 4, 2008 at 6:14 pm Link to this comment

Sure racism is simple, moinaeu, but it is obscured and complicated up so that power can racially oppress in a way that people can’t understand it.  Europe is certainly racist but it was not FOUNDED on racism as was the US or, more recently, Israel. The ruling class in the US traditonally used this racism to unite the Anglo population across class lines.

The only reason that this would be hard to understand is because the simple truth conflicts with the Patriotic mainstream truth with which the Amerian people have been miseducated, misinformed and misentertained.  This makes the simple truth emotionally complicated, even if intellectually simple.
                ***
Gorbechev, Jackpine, was probably the only world leader in the last half of the 20th century worse than Bush.  His polocies destroyed his own country.  Of course he is lionozed in the West for it, but the Russian people, when he ran for election, appeared to think differently.  Yeltsin ranks right up there too, his Democratic credentials in the West being validated by his shelling parlement with artillary.

Your view that the US ruling class may be turning the US into a third world country like it did Russia has been echoed by a number of writers.  I think you may very well be right.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment

While you continue to lump all corporations into one evil demon, which I think is wrong-headed, because that configuration is a chimera.  The trick is that only specific corporations can be held responsible. It isn’t seen that indictment of a nebulous whole is the trap most everyone who are imprecise falls into when complaining about a problem that is megalithic.  Other than that Outraged, I don’t see that we are that far apart in sentiments as expressed in your 4:09pm post.

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By jackpine savage, October 4, 2008 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

Nader’s swell, but i still question why he doesn’t seem to do much party building between quixotic runs for the presidency.

And from what i’ve read on how Nader operates, i’m not so sure that he’d “save our democracy”...benevolent dictator maybe.

While i agree that there is very little fundamental difference between the two parties, they are not the same. And though i detest even the idea of political parties, i do recognize that if we demand that the sleazy money be removed from the process then the parties wouldn’t be such a problem. But we’ve never demanded that (except for Ralph Nader, who harangues us every four years).

There’s always an excuse to not “throw away your vote”, and we’ll have to start sometime. But we’re looking down the end of empire here; how it ends will be very important to whether or not we have a chance to ever do the right thing and vote third party. Put McCain/Palin in charge for the upcoming era and we’ll end up starting a nuclear war.

We need an American Gorbachev, but Nader is no Gorbachev. Obama isn’t either, but he does have the potential. And unlike Nader, might actually win.

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By Outraged, October 4, 2008 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

Your comment: “Yah, the corporate powers are shafting Americans, but it didn’t happen just yesterday.  It’s been decades!  Are you just now opening your eyes?  Why wasn’t there screaming 30 years ago when they started their raping or was it even earlier than that?  I also would like to know if you think every corporation is shafting America or just particular ones?  Or is it the bankers, real estate moguls, and Wall Street?

Yes, we know it’s been happening for decades, and people WERE screaming about it, do you think they weren’t..?  Today it is different because of the opportunity people have to voice their opinion via the Internet.
 
In addition, there is a resurgence of of a particularly vile form of authoritarianism, translated as corporatism or more correctly as fascism.  I think the MIDDLE CLASS is finally opening their eyes, but the poor have been suffering steadily since the Clinton administration.  They have already endured many inequities and civil rights abuses.

The corporations, especially the large multi-nationals, are the underlying cause for the mess we’re in.  They are the ones lobbying and buying off members of congress to do their bidding.  As they weaken the system, they use other factions to help in its demise.  These factions, see weaknesses and try to grab power, then there are those who play both angles, such as Cheney.

CURRENTLY, I think the most dangerous entities to our democracy are the multi-national corporations.  They are the underlying problem or root cause of several other problems.  So regulating them and ENFORCING those regulations is crucial to our democracy and our sovereignty.

The difference today as opposed to decades ago,  is MORE people are MORE aware than they were before, but also because there is MORE information available and this information is MORE easily accessed.  So this is why we are seeing increased interest.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

Time for something else…
So McCain is going for character assassination of Obama!  Well then, the gloves are off.  This is the season of the witch!  Let us go witch hunting!  Let’s see, how about starting with dickhead McCain’s first wife!  And how he left her after she had a disfiguring car accident for another cutsie chick, Cindy.  That’s loyalty for ya.  It’s one thing to fall out of love and divorce, but for guys who want to be politicians, messing around is deadly.

Two years younger than Ralph Nader, on his own health, check out this website:
http://therealmccain.com/doctors/

Joe Klein-Time magazine Sept. 17, 2008 tells us McCain’s claims skirt facts and his lies have ranged from the annoying to the sleazy, and the problem is in both degree and kind. His campaign has been a ceaseless assault on his opponent’s character and policies, featuring a consistent—and witting—disdain for the truth.  So we will publish these lies every day in every place possible. Even the New York Times editorial board is calling John McCain a liar.

Paraphrasing Klein’s words, John McCain raises serious questions about whether he has the character to lead the nation. He defaces his beloved military code of honor. He is running a dirty campaign.

Jon Stewart called him a shameless panderer. What could that mean?  He embraces all the things he used to condemn.  Bush being one of them, I saw that hug, then he turns around and is now again bashing Bush.  What the f**k??

By way of providing background, the article reprised the story of the Keating Five scandal that cost three Senators their jobs and nearly ended John McCain’s career. According to the Times, during McCain’s years in the House of Representatives, he became friendly with Charles Keating, Chairman of Lincoln Savings & Loan.

Vote Obama/Biden if you want change in the White House.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment

That’s the problem with you troublesum, you still have your head up the 1940s darkplace.  There was a zeitgeist of a sort after the war in the States. You cannot compare the Democrats then with those of today.  Times change. 

Speaking of which, more recently, uh, seems like there were a fair number of Republicans that wanted to do something for the bankers.  And by the way, even Warren Buffett put his own money into the salvage.  A lot of middle class people I know have savings they would lose if something wasn’t done!  So don’t be an asshole anymore please.  There are too many in this world with the initials RN.  I listened to all of the economists.  They all dosedoed but in the end all said something had to be done.

And Outraged…
Yah, the corporate powers are shafting Americans, but it didn’t happen just yesterday.  It’s been decades!  Are you just now opening your eyes?  Why wasn’t there screaming 30 years ago when they started their raping or was it even earlier than that?  I also would like to know if you think every corporation is shafting America or just particular ones?  Or is it the bankers, real estate moguls, and Wall Street?  Greed is good, right?  That was a movie 1987, at least 20 years ago, and Nader wasn’t able to do anything even if he was prescient about it.  Why do you suppose that is so?  Something must have been wrong with his message.  As I said, we need a socialist democracy and this shafting would stop in a hurry.  And get rid of your tripartite government and put in a parliamentarian style one.

Well we all agree on one thing, the smell is to high heaven, well if there was a heaven. 

Vote Obama/Biden if you want a change in the White House.

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By Outraged, October 4, 2008 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

Your comment: “just because you are a Nader supporter doesn’t mean he walks on water.  As a matter of fact, he is a sinking ship and has always needed a life jacket.  Send him all of your money, and give him your one vote, I don’t care.  Your statistics are useless because you are bias-blind.

Did I claim Nader “walks on water”....?  I think Nader is our best bet FROM THE CHOICES AVAILABLE if we want to save our democracy.  I supported Obama until he started working against the interests of the American People.  I also happen to trust that Nader will work in the interests of the American People.  I think there are other good people, who would be good presidents, but they’re not in the race.

Aside from the statistics, to not have any choice but the two major parties is the problem.  It becomes increasingly obvious that both major parties have succumb to corporate interests.

Also, you said, “Furthermore, we all know that number of votes are not what wins elections, for if that were so, Gore would have won. It is decided by electoral votes from the states.  So it is moot to talk about total number of votes.  BUT then you go on to show how vote-wise… it was all Nader’s fault.

Secondly, you would have to qualify the assertion that candidates don’t have the right to get all the votes they can IN THE FIRST PLACE.  That’s what they’re supposed to do.  It’s not “wrong” to garner votes for yourself as a candidate.

Yes, I will vote for the candidate of my choice, I will also encourage others to vote for my choice for the same reasons I am, since obviously…I see them as valid.  I ALSO feel that in a close race, which it looks to be, Nader could win, since he would pull independents, greens, libertarians, republicans and democrats, and possibly “others”.

It seems the corporate “powers that be” are shafting Americans across the board, and this is why Nader will pull extra votes.  The bailout/theft on Friday, just could clinch the deal.

The biggest issue facing us is voter fraud and disenfranchisement, and we KNOW who will win if that continues.  Again….same shit, different pile.

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By troublesum, October 4, 2008 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Roosevelt: “We’ve got to help the working class.”
Today’s dimocwats: “We’ve got to do something for the bankers.”

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By troublesum, October 4, 2008 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

Wow 43%!  What’s happened to the dimocwats since Truman’s time, that’s the question.  Hints: Truman didn’t take contributions from corparations; he wanted repeal of Taft Hartley; he strongly supported single payer health care.

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By moineau, October 4, 2008 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

“The difference between Europe and America in terms of the health care, benefits, wages, public amenities, etc is quite simple.  America has traditionally been a highly racist country and the ruling class has used this racism to cross class boundaries to immobilize prgressives and the working class.”

not so simple. there is a ton of racism in europe. they criticize our past slavery but keep blacks, asians, and middle easterners down. one woman i made friends with shocked me one night when she said there were no black french. we wound up having quite an argument. no, race anywhere is never “simple”.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

Don’t be ridiculous troublesum.  More bull crap.  You Naderites can’t stand criticism.  Democrats pull plenty of votes.  They have to contend with corruption of the voting process.  I don’t remember being happy about Perot.  I thought he was a cartoon with posters.  Clinton eclipsed his opponents from a 25% low in June to the more than healthy 43% in November.  So don’t try to sleaze that one. 

Hey you all, do I have to fend off these Nader numbnuts all by myself?  Aw, I can do it.  But who are the wimps?

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By troublesum, October 4, 2008 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment

Wallace ran against Truman from the left and Thurman ran against him from the right.  He defeated them as well as Dewey, the republican.  No wimping out from Truman.

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By troublesum, October 4, 2008 at 3:00 pm Link to this comment

The democwats were happy to have Perot in the race in 1992, otherwise Clinton would have lost.

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By troublesum, October 4, 2008 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Poor democwats can’t persuade enough people to vote for them so they have to blame third party candidates.  Wimps.  Both Roosevelt and Truman ran against third party candidates and won.  What’s happened to the democratic party since then?  Imagine Roosevelt crying about Wallace running against him or Truman crying about Thurman.

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By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

Outraged, just because you are a Nader supporter doesn’t mean he walks on water.  As a matter of fact, he is a sinking ship and has always needed a life jacket.  Send him all of your money, and give him your one vote, I don’t care.  Your statistics are useless because you are bias-blind.  How many votes did Nader get in Florida?  Even if the other than major party votes are correct, there is no reason to suppose Gore would not have received Nader’s votes had Nader not forced himself on the ballot.  Furthermore, we all know that number of votes are not what wins elections, for if that were so, Gore would have won. It is decided by electoral votes from the states.  So it is moot to talk about total number of votes.  There is no scapegoating Nader.  He is just a goat.

Vote Obama/Biden if you don’t want four more years of the same.

AND OF COURSE NO ONE SHOULD BE SUPPRESSED FROM VOTING AND ALL VOTES SHOULD COUNT!  IS ANYBODY SUPPRESSING VOTES EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE TRYING AGAIN TO DISENFRANCHISE VOTERS IN FLORIDA AND OHIO, AND ELSEWHERE I’VE BEEN HEARINIG? 

FYI:  Wikipedia:  In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes. Nader received 97,421 votes. In fact, all seven of the other third-party candidates on the ballot in Florida each received more than 537 votes.

The claim is that this was Nader’s “greatest impact” on the election. Nader himself, both in his book Crashing the Party, and on his website, states: “In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all. 

37,020 of Nader’s votes would have gone to Gore, 24,355 to Bush, netting Gore the win by 12665. 

In 2004, Nader pulled 32,890 votes in Florida.  While that was 0% based on the more than 7 million cast, that could still be enough to win Florida were the vote not messed with otherwise and the Supreme Court not given it to Bush.  Every vote counts when there is hanky panky.  And in this 2008 election it will be Hanky Panties.

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