The bizarro world America has been living since the advent of GWB [ regime change…where in the US Constituion is it written that the Republic of the USA is empowered to change regimes 8000 miles away from its borders…..where are the wmds that Saddam Hussein was on the point of dropping on Israel…..where is the cakewalk promoted by a neocon cabal as implemention of “A new Strategy for Securing a New Realm” a zionist inspired proposal for US implementation to protect Israel by divvying up ME nations into little Balkans and to be accomplised according to its proponents in as long as six weeks…..six years ago at cost to br paid by Iraq oil….now costing the US some $6 billion a month]

Did anyone think to ask Sir Alan Greenspan if the US could afford such undertakings? Did the bankers and economists such as Paulson and others warn of dire economic tsunamis?

The only real deal as some are wonting to call the present bail out is to get away from the bizzaro world that has become a night mare and do one act only. Do not bail Wall Street or the banks out.

Bail Americans and in time America out. Take $350 billion dollars and allocate to American families. Let all americans pull America back up by spending the $350 billion to re-finance mortgages; buy necessities such health care, products mafct in the US ...washers, stoves, etc,.food by Americans spending their OWN money they will in time make the farmer prosper, the mechanic, the doctors, nurses, teachers etc, and eventually the good and honest bankers.

This is the only meaningful way to revitalize America any other way of giving someone sole authority to spend $700 billion is nothing but a farce and in time will prove more disastrous than the present regime changes in Iraq, Afghanistan and as some are demading the nuking of Iran.

America is at a crossroads and given the ineptness as well as greediness of those who are responsible for bringing America to the abyss and for those in powere to turn in the direction of giving the same individuals $700 billion to play with is the height of idiocy if not madness.

Wow. Really good posts, people. I am learning alot.

I think we need hearings, a system like the Scandanavian coutnries., etc. But, then, I talk to a friends who is in tears, because her IRA is in shreds. I hope to hell people dont sell in this environment. I let someone talk me into it once. I wish I had not.

It is simply not fair—period. The capitalist system does not work.

someone, please take pete domenici off the senate floor, i think he’s having both a stroke AND a heartache. the man cannot speak! he sounds like palin! help him, please!

I hate to say it, but for once I do find myself agreeing with Scheer and many of you here.  However, the article, and the comments, really don’t address the root cause of this issue.

The main reason that we got into a housing bubble was the availability of capital, specifically mortgages for homes.  Question - - Why was there so much capital available for mortgages.  Answer - - because banks were “asked” (read:  pushed) to make a certain % of loans to low income and/or poor credit cases.  Why?  The Community Re-Investment Act.  Question 2 - Why would a bank give a loan to someone whose listed food stamps as an “income source” (this is a truth)?  Answer - - Because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were pushing them AND would guarantee them.

Well, because of that, we ended up with home prices rising much faster than the rate of inflation.  Then Wall Street jumped in and said, “Hey, we can package all these worthless mortgages into a Securitization, sell them, and generate even more capital!”

Essentially, it was one big Ponzi Scheme based on a failed Social Engineering experiment.  I am not demigoging, these are all facts.  I have no stomach to “bail-out Wall Street”.  Capitalism needs bankruptcy to survive.  That said, it can be argued that increased regulation, specifically through Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and, yes Barack Obama, led to this meltdown.  Fact is, in 2005, Barney Frank was arguing that Freddie and Fannie were just fine.  Oops.

Rahm Emmanuel, Franklin Raines and Obama have all been PERSONALLY complicit in Fannie Mae over the past 5 years, either working for Fannie, or protecting them in a private capacity (not as a lawmaker), and each was personally and professionally richly rewarded.

There it all, all on the table.  I have no love for the current plan, but “increased regulation” will not do it.  Ask the Congressional Black Caucus why they unanimously voted against the plan.  They said, and I quote Jesse Jackson, Jr. “It wasn’t expensive enough”.  Wow.  They were all for it when 20% off the top went straight to ACORN and La Raza.

Does anyone here really think the Democrats, as a group AND individually, are any worse than your worse nightmare of a Republican?

Here is part of what is wrong with the capitalist ruin that America has become: Today, I was eating breakfast and my wife had a show on television, probably ‘Today’. People in Haiti, many children, are eating mud. There is no food. The commodities prices, spurred by fixed oil price increases, made food scarce months ago, and now there is nothing to eat, they are mixing oil, salt and dirt and eating it. Then, the show on one of our capitalist networks went to some mass consumer-goods commercials and then a cooking segment on making lemon pies in a Bourgieosie kitchen. The director should be jailed.

There is no question that our way of life as a working class is about to be stolen from us by the government as it has been scammed in the biggest confidence scheme in history to sell itself to Wall St with money it will steal from workers. I rail against it as not having enough government control and needing more extensive government programs for economic socialism such as nationalizing national resources, freezing oil and natural gas assets and returning them to government control at no profit, along with health care to strictly regulate all HMOs, pharmaceuticals, and provide paid health care for all citizens as part of a return for their taxes. Though five of the six congressmen in my area voted against the deal, only one is for these kinds of changes and the others are fascist Bushites who oppose it because they want to give Wall St the money after the election.

Workers have responsibilities too. I retired last month after 35 years as a health professional. Though I made a decent living, I am not wealthy and spent considerable sums to educate my physician and civil engineer sons. I also have never in 59 years owned a vehicle with more than 4 cylinders because of air pollution, greenhouse gasses, and gasoline consumption. I have never purchased anything at a Starbucks and have never been inside of one. I do not believe that the workers of this country should be wallowing in creature comforts or by their actions reaffirming the capitalist enemies by purchasing their consumer goods beyond what is necessary. I write columns for two websites in astronomy and music, and believe that there are things that are interesting besides vapid pop culture, alcolism, and hedonism.

The coming class struggle will make demands on all of the working class and we had better get into shape and start girding up for game time. The fat cats are clever and have the idiot politicians on their side of this battle, but we will prevail, but only if we have the self-discipline to prepare for a long, hard fight.

“If those senators listen to their constituents less than the house, they deserve to lose their sights.”

I meant seats, most of them are already blind.

This reminds of the “European Constitution” which was roundly voted down in referendums inside the EU states; but then the entire contents (radical free-market capitalism, privatization, and all) were repackaged as a ‘treaty’ so those stupid voters would shut the fuck up, where it was shoved through, except in the one state where that wasn’t an option… 

This bill better not go through; and it is extremely sad to me that some people are even fooled by the make-believe cnn line that we don’t have to worry because supposedly “obama will repeal this when he becomes president.)  A blatant lie, but if it were true, I’m sure Henry Paulson could spend many trillions of dollars between now and January. 

If those senators listen to their constituents less than the house, they deserve to lose their sights.  As Naomi Klein said, we need to use our passionate intensity, our indignation to take these corporatist murderers out.

Most economists and people who understand the economy say ‘a rescue package is urgently needed’ and they know what they’re talking about. Much as I respect Scheer I think he’s overlooking the fact that now is not the time for class warfare. ‘Off with their heads’ was what the Queen said in Alice in Wonderland but that was a fantasy. EVERYONE is going to suffer if the slide to catastrophe is not addressed, not only Wall St. and not only the rich. Ordinary working Americans will be most affected by a complete collapse of the economy because they have the least financial buffer during hard times. There’s plenty of blame to go around but because Bush totally lacks all credibility he can’t make the voters trust him when he says the rescue package is vital and must happen. Voters should curb their anger and unleash it at the ballot box. The Republicans don’t deserve another term in the White House and I personally believe that Bush and Cheney should be impeached, even after they’ve left office for their irresponsbility and their criminality and it seems this is legally possible. Sarkozy has declared that the era of laissez faire is over. I hope to God he’s right. Clearly the only act of irresponsibility that could outdo what Bush and Cheney have done would be to elect McCain and Palin.

FYI:

Since we may be going down in flames, has anyone read:

Will Wall Street’s Meltdown Turn America Into a Police State?, Scott Thill, AlterNet, 20080930

It seems 1984 is here?

By Don Stivers, October 1 at 11:43 am #
•  “I might be wrong but the usury law in California limits interest rates to 7%.  Is it enforced?  Doesn’t seem like it.”
Don, you are correct here. The law DOES limit interest rates to 7% and no, it is not enforced, because the thieves ‘call it’ something other than ‘interest’. They call it whatever they want, but it’s simply highway robbery.
•  “Let’s make the little banks like the bank in my home town, Bank of the Sierra, more liquid.  They, the little banks, are in touch with the little guy.”
This is tried and true knowledge, and still is to this day. Little banks, Credit Unions, and the like, are how we should be doing our business. There is an inherent flaw here though, and one that many people (most in fact) may not experience. The little banks/credit unions CAN, (even if ‘most’ don’t) discriminate against anyone they want. It is very difficult to hold them accountable for federal civil rights legislation. It’s not something that most of us would be inclined to consider, UNLESS we have been ‘discriminated against’. I have, with a very large employee credit union, and sadly, I was not alone. Now a branch of that very SAME credit union in California, probably (or hasn’t been to my knowledge) guilty of the same discrimination. But that’s the catch. It’s nearly impossible to monitor or enforce, similar to the usury interest law.
Meantime, I often wonder if all of the efforts to ‘save the union’ haven’t produced a circumstance that now calls for us to bust it up, because I too, and thoroughly disgusted with Congress, but not just NOW. I’ve been disgusted with them for years. Scheer is right that the Dems have as much responsibility for this as anyone, including and maybe especially Bill Clinton. Even my own Congresswoman voted for the original bill, and she’s normally far better. The problem is that far too many of them don’t know the complexities.

And, that leads me to agree with Max Shields on something, for about the first time ever, and probably the last. He responds to Virginia 777 here:

•  “While I appreciate your skepticism about the so-called Amercian “right” and why it seems so against this bailout, I can only say that that is probably as convergence of Congressional elections….. People can be against and for something for very different reasons that somehow dovetail.”

There last part is the most perceptive. People can be for and against the same thing for different reasons, and they aren’t always pure. I also agree with him that while we’ve been lectured to the supposedly critical nature of this crash, nothing in any of the plans tells us that it will work. I also agree that it does nothing more than postpone the inevitable, and so it would be criminal to continue throwing good money after bad.

More than anything, I agree with what TAO Walker has been trying to coach for well over year now. STOP FOLLOWING THE ‘MONEY’. We see where that leads…to demise.

Americans love to holler freedom as they make themselves slaves to the money. It’s a tortured logic and fatal contradiction.

Everytime I try to watch it, I can feel my blood pressure in my forehead.

And, gawd knows, if I have a stroke, I have no health care.

Seriously, it would be a great miracle to see al of thsee people bounced out. What about term limits??

I’m watching the Senate “discussion” on the wall street welfare bill. All the paid servants (called senators) of wall street are saying the same lines - all Americans will suffer, we are putting guidelines, we are restricting executive pays, etc. etc. All are saying we WILL (meaning in the future) restrictions, NOT NOW.

My first reaction is why are these people suddenly realizing there is a problem? Were they sleeping for the last eight years? Were they too busy enjoying themselves with their masters’ handouts?

We must defeat this vote tonight (Wednesday night). If they and the congress pass this bill, make sure everyone that votes for it, must be kicked out.

We must also vote out the candidates for the two main parties.

Power to the people

While bailouts like this are the only thing that keeps a bogus system like capitalism in place, most people are still focused on “getting their money”.

And with good reason—teh US has virtually NO social safety net, we throw people out to tents (if theyre lucky) all the time.

People behaved in a criminal manner in the housing mkt.. They should go to jail, and we should use their money to re-finance houses.

Another point that, probably, no one will like—it that, during the dot com “bubble”, the working and middle classes were made to “feel silly” for accepting the low rates on a savings accoubt or CD. The US has virtually no public pension system—those fricking IRAs and 401ks would not be necessary if we did. The middle class really has no business in the stock mkt,. if it is going to be left to the hounds of hell.

Stronger unions and a living wage are very necessary in a “capitalist democracy”—if, indeed , that is what most US citizens still want.

You guys know that doing this over and over again is not the only option, right? You know that you can have democracy and freedom without pure unregulated capitalism, right?

The Swedish system is one example. There are many.

One man’s “freedom” may be anothers’ terror—if youre sleeping in a park, because you were lied to about Money Mkts. , housing values, etc.

If we dont at least, make a “FDR attempt” at unrigging this sytem, alot of people are going to die.

By Virginia777, October 1 at 12:37 pm #

While I appreciate your skepticism about the so-called Amercian “right” and why it seems so against this bailout, I can only say that that is probably as convergence of Congressional elections - most are facing, an opportunity to separate themselves from Bush.

People can be against and for something for very different reasons that somehow dovetail.

It seems worth mentioning, too, that the attempts by virtually all of “the establishment” to drive theamericanpeople into a frightened frenzy over this contrived condition is all and only about “the money.”  Yet nowhere is there any discussion of the real nature of the stuff as shown by its ACTUAL effects upon us and our Living Arrangement….toxic, corrosive, and habit forming.

So under the “money” power, the organic function of a house is not in its capacity to provide shelter, but as a repository of “wealth”....itself an entirely make-believe notion.  Vehicles aren’t really for mere transportation so much as for “self-esteem” (that cheap imitation plastic substitute for real RESPECT) and public imagery.

Maybe there persists, despite ten-thousand years of attempted eradication, a vestige in the domesticated peoples of natural integrity.  Maybe there is still some sense of the absolute triviality of “money” and all its works, when set against the living breathing real-time requirements of healthy Human society….which clearly have been systematically destroyed, among the “civilized,” rather than enhanced since “money” was injected into the mix.

When the robbers demand “Your money or your life!” they are perhaps unwittingly pointing-up for you THE basic choice facing the tame two-leggeds here in these latter days.  If you make the wrong one now there may not be another chance to “get it right,” as the pols and privateers are telling you over-and-over here lately.

Breaking this fatal addiction to “money,” as painful as it is bound to be, is ironically the “price” domesticated people must pay to regain their free wild natural “estate.”  That this information is just about everywhere unwelcome is an indication of how thoroughly ensnared people are in the toils of the “money” contraption….even though it actually exists only in their own captive imaginations.

Get rid of ALL your “money,” Sisters and Brothers.  Let the fools have it who are right now begging you for it….under threat of freezing “the economy,” of course.  You might be surprised at how quickly and naturally living free comes back to you. 

Follow “the money trail” to its inevitable bitter end, though, and you will find your selves condemned to diminishing half-lives of deeper degradation even than you’re being subjected to today.

HokaHey!

What will be required to stabilize the housing markets?

I believe increased incomes for the middle class, and an increase in the savings rate are the essential cornerstones required to restore bedrock in the housing market. The housing market will stabilize when median home prices re-align with median income. Savings will be required to insure the proper loan-to-value ratios lenders will require.

Assuming the deficiencies in incomes and savings are corrected, the remaining issue will be inventories. Developers must employee prudence in their decision making. Communities must intelligently regulate development.

To resolve the root cause of the crisis policy makers must ask: how can we increase middle class incomes and produce incentives to increase savings?

The current correction will take back the irrational gains in housing prices — stimulated by a mischievous loosening of credit policy — but genuine recovery and a return to normalcy must be accompanied by a restoration of the fundamental principles of mortgage lending.

To play “devil’s advocate” here, has anyone thought about the Right who are also advocating for no bailout?

Why, because they don’t want the Feds to have too much power. Whats so bad about that? Don’t the problems we are having on Wall Street have everything to do with the LACK of Federal Regulation?

If we can really achieve Federal oversight to our markets, won’t this work for the health of our country? Our country does seem to be based on its financial systems (as we have all learned in the past few days, which has really been an education).

It makes me “nervous” when the Right starts in on its “Anti-government intervention” chorus. These are people who are war-mongers and to whose “biggest issue” seems to constantly be “no raising taxes”. Selfish, alarmist thinking, in other words.

Why wouldn’t our federal regulators work for the health of our financial system? When money is involved, people seems to take a lot more care than with other issues in our country.

Also, I would never advocate “siding” with Newt Gingrich - at least I would recognize that his objectives in this are very different than the ones I hold true.

By MAR, October 1 at 11:32 am #

With your talk of how bad things will be if this bailout is not passed, you fail, as has the general promoters of this bill to provided a sound reason why such a bailout will do anything to turnaound this financial collapse.

People have heard the political/media/wallstreet elite promotion of this bailout and you simply seem to be ecohing it as if you KNOW what will happen.

First, this is not the 1930s. That bit of history just won’t help in this situation.

I’m as locked into the market as anyone with 401k, but that doesn’t mean a $700 b bailout will change the picture of this downward spiral. “Saving” the system will only compound the outcome which will come faster and more furious.

This is the ending of an empire that has been living on borrowed time and money since the mid-1960s. We can either face it, transform it, restructure it; or simply delude ourselves into postponing it with a bailout.

The choice is ours.

good summary on the options, fenwick. i think we’ve been watching the same news programs lol. and i’m sure there are even more good ideas. the swedish model worked well. also, ireland is buying up $500 bil of their debt. how is it that $700 bil is going to do our? odd…

This is the link to the article about Swedens’s
economic reform.

They have the highest standard of living in the world.
They also seem to prefer peace.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html?_r=1&em;&oref;=slogin

If I could afford to sell this dump house, and still pay off bills (or flee the country), I’d have moved a long time ago.

Unfortunately, it may not be as easy as it has been in the past. Canada is rather sick of us, deports our troops that seek amnesty there, we make businessmen from Canada show passports now—-

If you have money, it may be different. But, I think Canada has had quite enough of cleaning up the uS’s messes.

sabagio, bill maher has been doing a piece at the end of each of his hbo show “real time”. it’s called “exit strategy” and each week features a different country that americans might consider moving to if mccain/palin win the election. the way this is going, who cares who wins, eh? i’ve been trying to move to france for years now, but i’m afraid the dollar is going to tank further and i’m on a fixed income. if you want to live in canada legally, best to sign up now as the waiting list is around six years. bound to longer very soon…

afterthought: AND at stealing money.

moineau,, October 1 at 11:38 am #

“the government will be too overwhelmed by the numbers to be able to prosecute. anyone else thought of this outcome?”
———————————————————-

A while back, my niece recommended we move to CanaAda.  She said this when she heard about Sarah Palin’s nomination to be Vice President. After the past few days, this option seems more appealing than ever.

Sabagio Mauraeno, not yet packing up and moving on, but cleaning up and carrying out stuff not needed for a Big Move by a small pickup truck.

mar, i’m not convinced that this crisis equals the great depression. the financial experts don’t agree. some are convinced that putting enough resources into the home foreclosures would begin to sort out the crisis. i agree with many: what would be wrong with hearings? there are many good ideas out there. some say the way this is going to be done will not be enough and will tank the dollar. are you saying the senators are financial experts? they haven’t heard enough options to make an educated decision. they are going on fear alone. and we know how good the bush administration is at issuing fear.

moineau—Sorry. I did not listen to the entire phone conversation, so I guess I didnt hear it all. I just cant stand it after awhile.

In any case, poor people have been crying for alot of years. The boarded up houses in my urban neighborhood shouldve been tended to long ago.

Sorry, but if you have 8 houses—move into one!!

Alot of people are not going to have a pot to pee in.

I might be wrong but the usury law in California limits interest rates to 7%.  Is it enforced?  Doesn’t seem like it.

Let’s make the little banks like the bank in my home town, Bank of the Sierra, more liquid.  They, the little banks, are in touch with the little guy.

Screw Wall Street and Congress.  What a bunch of pucks.  They ignore the people who have been raging altogether. Why is the Senate anymore protective of the interests of the tax payer than the House?  They are not.  Read the fine print.

Bail out the assholes and oh, by the way we’ll think about the little guy after the fire burns down the little house.  Give the tax payer a tent.

What a bunch of bastards our representatives are.  I have lost value in my stock (what little I have) and property which I bought over 30 years ago but it is coming down to where it SHOULD be. 

Senators, vote no to the bailout and screw the defense industry.  Those engineers can now design new roads and bridges and still make a good living.

Congress is SO DISGUSTING.

Anyone watching these windbag Senators ramming this thing through? One just ended her litany of claims as a corruption fighter by stating that she was “voting yes because she listened to the tax payers”. The nitwit speaking now gushes that it is all for the little people—but neglects to point out that it is the little people footing the bill and shouldering the sacrifice to assume bad debts on the books of those who lined their pockets and will continue on their merry way while we subsidize their lifestyle…at our expense.

one thing i haven’t heard mentioned by anyone anywhere: besides street protests, what will happen if this bill passes? personally, i think people will stop paying their taxes and the government will be too overwhelmed by the numbers to be able to prosecute. anyone else thought of this outcome?

There are many good points in the article and in the subsequent posts. The urge to burn the corporate thieves at the stake and deny them a bailout is understandbable, considering the state of UNOWWHO in meeting the monthly expenses. But the knowledge of money and banking of the average Joe is next to nil. Something must be done and fast.

Whatever the action, the fallout of a failure to act it is not just in the US. Economics 101 should tell all that the real issue here is general economic liquidity, not just covering the the corps and Peedunk, Arkansa. As the US is the major world economy, its intransigence threatens to plunge the whole Western world into a major credit collapse which will bring on days you don’t want to see. Without credit companiesd can’t operate, pay bills, meet payrolls, let alone expand and grow.

I was born before the Great Depression ansd grew through childhood in the poverty that strikes workers without a job.

Having survived on sorted chicken feed, the wheat kernels being boiled into a sort of crude gruel in the dirty thirties, there is no one on this thread that would want to go back to that no matter hard done by they think they are now. There was no credit, no mortgages, no money, little food and it was your President Roosevelt who pulled the rabbit out of the hat with the New Deal that started things back. Then of course the war loosened up everything.

But whatever you do, you have to solve the dilemma that YOUR country is pushing the world into. Even at the price of covering the losses of the Wall Street Fat Cats. What about the losses of life savings of millions of Americans and many more millions elsewhere who haven’t the remotest of connections to Wall Street?

Wouldn’t it be cute if China started calling its American credits or dumped US dollars on the market?

The folks on this thread have righteous indignation, but the financial experts can see what the the mortgage gurus have wrought and where it could go. As Obama says, “distasteful but needed NOW!” He appears to be the only one of any stature on the scene. It is bad enough to have a major world economiv crisis looming but having it mixed up in US election politics!!

thanks, fenwick.

unbelievable watching these senators one by one get up on the floor and try cover their butts: “i was for this reform, i was for that reform, even though i am FORCED to vote for this bailout.” (subtext: don’t blame me, vote for me in nov.)

suddenly they are all hearing stories about businesses having a hard time getting by? suddenly, just today? what a crock of sh.t. reminds me of when gas went up several months ago and SPONTANEOUSLY china and india grew too big for the oil companies to handle. another crock. how many crocks make up a voting block?

mysterious how fast the economy can crumble… not.

“One guy from Alabama was com-plaining that “of all the eight houses he bought, none was worth what he paid for them now”. ?! Does he have no conception that he is part of the problem?”

i heard him too, he called during shay and he slammed him, asked him if he was a liar or an idiot. just because the man is a homebuilder does not mean that he is rich or an a..hole! i felt sorry for him, he was on the verge of tears. you guys are too hard on everyone.

By RdV, October 1 at 10:15 am #
“Obama is sure to increasingly disappoint.

“...Roosevelt’s main achievement, which was to put the public interest before that of the Wall Street titans.”

FDR he is not.”

Important point. No one questions Obama’s intellect. FDR was not a great intellect, as much as a supremely confident leader and an instinct to find workable populist solutions.

I do not think we should be saving capitalism, but we should take this moment to present a directional change in the narrative. It will take more than a president, but it can begin with a clear headed leader who is fearless regarding the existing power structure and is not tone deaf regarding the people. This is not simply a replay of the 1930s and FDR. There is no instructor’s manuals, as there were none during the 1930s.

We do not see the capacity with either candidate the duopolistic establishment has offered up. Both lean on the very minds that got us to this point.

Not necessarily so, Paolo. It all depends on who is appointing the regulators. Libertarians, like Republicans who call for more de-regulation as the solution, are cagey in that they point to the gubbermint regulators to blame. Well, shoot, regulators can’t exactly enforce regulations that don’t exist—and less regulators make the oversight more difficult. The irony is those who were anti-gubbermint to begin with were the ones who stacked the regulators with cronies and free marketeers. You just can’t have it both ways.

Ted Swart—If not us, who. If not now—when?

YES shemp333. wouldn’t it indeed be good to have a 2nd American revolution.  Very little chance I’m afraid.

Obama is sure to increasingly disappoint.

“...Roosevelt’s main achievement, which was to put the public interest before that of the Wall Street titans.”

  FDR he is not.

http://www.miltonfriedmancores.org/

Here is a link to protest the opening of a Friedman type school at the Univ. of Chicago.

The sad part is all of these isiots will be re-elected in November.  People hav the mentality it’s not my congressman it’s all the others.  We need to clean house.

FEN—I agree. I did not think that you were very wealthy, or you would not hold the views that you do. Your politics show that you know what it is like to haVE been there. That matters alot.

I saw Shays, and I hear some Dems celebrating the GOPs “new populism”. I dont even know what to say to thaat, except that they are neglecting to account for motivation.

Did you also hear Lawrence Officer of the Chicago School, and all the idiots calling in to support him?? One guy from Alabama was com-plaining that “of all the eight houses he bought, none was worth what he paid for them now”. ?! Does he have no conception that he is part of the problem?

Thanks for the response.

FENWICK—It is bound to fall apart eventually, because, we have no social safety net. There are plenty of people out here who graduated from college, played by the rules, etc. and still got screwed.

It is only going to get worse, unless, we make state universities free for those who can pass, invest in decent lower income housing, provide single payer health care, and enact a living minimum wage.

This is sortve a Hobson’s choice. It is no choice. If they pass it, it wil fail, If they dont pass it, the mkt will still fail.Whatever happens, they wil blame it on the average person on the street—stupid, uneducated, greedy.

This is BS and should be rejected.

Gell, they can even re-finance, as long as it is not their primary residence!

If the Cpts. of Industry are not held accountable, there SHOULD be hell to pay, but, sadly, there will probably not be.

What to do if you can’t get through…?

Like the rest of you, I’ve found it difficult to breakthrough the electronic gate keepers that protect the “privacy” of our elected representatives from intrusions by members of their constituencies.  Instead of the frustrations of frontal attacks on our reps, try an end around by contacting their local constituency services offices. Call, email, or better yet, Fax.  I’ve done this many times with great success.  I actually talked to a live human being sometimes. Below are the contact points for Johnny Isakson (R) of Georgia. This is an example of what else you could use for getting through. 

Senator Johnny Isakson

United States Senate
120 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Tel: (202) 224-3643
Fax: (202) 228-0724

Local Office:
One Overton Park, Suite 970
3625 Cumberland Blvd
Atlanta, GA 30339
Tel: (770) 661-0999
Fax: (770) 661-0768

I disagree that homeowner mortgages should be first on the list to rescue. The first thing that should be done is a 100% guarantee on all bank, credit union, and money market deposits. We put our money in these places for safe keeping, not to take risk and try to get rich.

I believe that the root of the problem is our lack of control of corporate power. This history of this struggle is described in Ted Nace’s “Gangs of America” available for free download at http://www.californiademocracy.org

I am also learning about how our banking system works, starting with the Federal Reserve, which is a private system. Ellen Hodgson Brown’s website, http://www.webofdebt.com, has some information about this. According to her, the whole point of the Fed is to keep the country in debt in order to make the bankers richer.

I watched CNN this morning and saw the parade of pundits march in with their pom-poms and immedietly form a pyramid and shout “B-A-I-L bailout package now. GO TEAM!” There was John Roberts looking into the camera telling everyone that they were nuts not to support this bailout! And Ali Velshi, despite his superior fashion sense, decried the people who didn’t support this. Even Kiran Chetry was halfheartedly singing the praises if the bailout(and I like to think she is way too pretty swollow this shit burger served up by Paulson/Bernanke foods)
My point is that while many people are enlightened by independent, internet based media sites, Nearly all americans still get their news from the corp media, and their RA-RA’s who seem to swollow every bullshit story the government serves out. People still watch Fox news, for crissake!
Americans may finally be on the road to enlightenment. But it will be a long, arduous, road filled with potholes. Hopefully our AAA memebership is paid up, because we could be driving for a while.

Sabagio, if the political/financial Elites in this country seem, as you say, “brain-damaged or tone-deaf”, it’s because they want to save the present system while doing as little change to it as possible—in other words, they’re thinking inside the box, while either not knowing or ignoring that thinking OUTSIDE the box is what’s needed now.

As Oxenstierna wrote to his son after the Thirty Years War, “An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundis regitur?” (know you not, my son, with how little wisdom this world is governed?)

It is amazing to me that people stil suggest that Obama should “stick with the Chicago street”—he is in DC now. Power corrupts, blah, blah

How can you expect a candidate who took millions from Wall St, to, then stand up to them? Everyone decries the DLC, Clinton, etc. I agree with alot of it. But, Obama is hiring and taking advice from, al the same people. And it shows, in how his speeches have changed from what they were in the beginning of the campaign.

The economy will now be the excuse the not enact any reforms that Obama might want to make. I dont think that his idea of reform was all that solid anyway.

I wasnt convinced he was a populist then. I sure as hell wont believe it now. He could gain broad populist support, but the Dem Party always seem to think they dont need it. Even if they win, if they dont have brqaosad support from cvoters, it wil stil be a 50/50 country.

We need change far more profound than the election of a new pesident.

I wished i could laugh but it’s not funny, I’ve been calling congress all morning and keep getting, :we’re sorry, all circuits are busy now, please try your call later”  What a crock.  We CAN NOT make this bill about saving the CEO’s, I say put them all in jail.  This Bill must do more to protect the average Joe from the mis-deeds of the big corporations and Washington itself!  We need to march on DC, take our country back.

While I agree that what we saw yesterday in the House was a complete reversal of Congressional rubber-stamping.

However, the fundamental issue with the bailout that Sheer and others here have noted should not give us false hope. The Senate is looking for palatable ways to position this and the Dems in the House (with some Repubs) may actually pass this monster. It aint over!!

am i the only person out there unable to get through to any senator today? i have called 10 so far. busy signals or recordings saying your call did not go through.or no answer at all. isn’t amerika great?

By cruxpuppy, October 1 at 6:32 am #

“One more point. The Boston Tea Party was a minor incident, a symptom of a much deeper complaint on the part of the colonists. It wasn’t a tax on tea alone that got their dander up. The real issue was the banning of the colonist’s use of their own money in 1763. The Crown disallowed the use of colonial script, which pretty much devastated economic activity and created mass unemployment. The colonies had little gold and without their script, their own home-grown monetary system, they were without sufficient money to maintain the prosperity they had achieved.

You might consider the parallels between then and now.”

Excellent point. Local banks are actually fairing well, at least that’s the case in CT. Local currency is another important consideration. The Local movement - NOT the one pols like Obama coopt (“bottom-up”) is the movement we need to be pushing.

Local currency is what many areas used during the Great Depression. But more than that, local banks investing local first, as well as creating local regional trade agreements and local balance of trade is absolutely essential in creating a sustainable economy / life. GET YOUR AREA OFF THE FED MESS.

The established system, the one represented by the two party system is INCAPABLE of dealing with the deep systemic economic issues we face. Time to reject the same ol same ol of “growing your way to prosperity” and the resulting endless war to control the world’s resources.

This is the moment of truth we’ve been waiting for. Let’s not let it escape our grasp.

P.T.

With this credit crunch I have been increasingly fecundated with blank checks, requests to accept new credit cards plus they are all telling me they have increased my max spending limit?

The disconnect is Congress being sold a bill of goods, not knowing what they are doing. This disconnect to the people is increased within the Senate,  Obama is included in my observation.  They need to be much more cautious with all of our money.  Oh, I forgot they are bedfellows with the Chicken Little crowd. 

Always remember Robbie the robot yelling “Warning” “Warning” three times before the shit hit the fan.

What credit crunch?

The interest rate on 30-year fixed rate mortgages is a very low 6.0 percent, and the vast majority of loans are being made with no more than 10-20 percent down.

Abutaza has it right.  Robert Scheer’s article is not tough enough. Greed has overwhelmed the US and neither Obama nor McCain has the guts to recornize this.

this is the letter i sent to my friends and family today:

if you can get it together to send an email or to call your congressmen, that would be great. the senate will vote today and “lead” the house on the finance bill. if you can’t do it, don’t worry: millions already are. as you said, maureen, the serfs are raising their farming tools! and it isn’t over yet. the election for these creeps is in november! but then, we’ll replace these idiots with more idiots. all i can think of is cheney with his response to the question about what the american people want: “so?”

i’m not optimistic that we can stop these mfers during this second round of the bill, even with voters coming in at 30 to 1 against the bill. worse of all are lead democrats (obama, clinton, reid, pelosi, frank, dodd—boy have i learned a lot during this crisis) who seem to be completely in the pockets of the bankers and wall street crooks. according to kucinich, obama even warned the caucus not to include bankrupcy reform for the victims of predatory lending! the salaries of ceo’s is a red herring; there are several red herrings. but while this was a time for real leadership, obama showed himself to be the status quo. sad, too sad, really. downright depressing.

before obama becomes president, IF obama becomes president, bush, cheney, paulson, with the help of the democratic congress, will crush any possibility of a new deal society. i’m so angry about it, i’m choking as i write. and they did it just like they pushed the iraq war, right before congress left town in the fall; what are they, exhausted sheep?!

just unbelievable… and when there are so many good ideas out there that DON’T reward the crooks by buying the bad paper and then selling it right back to them! why don’t they understand the basic problem? it’s “the foreclosures, stupid!” as a knowledgeable guest on “democracy now” put it. but they probably do understand it, that’s the disgusting thing. it’s obama that i can’t believe or forgive. it could have been so different, and america would have gotten behind him 100%. i guess the gamble is that the money for the most expensive campaign in history will drive up.

write or call congress—Call your Senators and Representative at the Capitol Switchboard, 202-224-3121—and tell them “grow up!” or heaven help us, according to many scholars, the dollar will be crushed, the sad dollar which keeps us bound to this country whether we like it or not! forget europe, forget your dreams! ~lt

One more point. The Boston Tea Party was a minor incident, a symptom of a much deeper complaint on the part of the colonists. It wasn’t a tax on tea alone that got their dander up. The real issue was the banning of the colonist’s use of their own money in 1763. The Crown disallowed the use of colonial script, which pretty much devastated economic activity and created mass unemployment. The colonies had little gold and without their script, their own home-grown monetary system, they were without sufficient money to maintain the prosperity they had achieved.

You might consider the parallels between then and now.

Are the folks offering up the solution to our current financial crisis brain-damaged or tone-deaf? Bean counters on both ends of the political spectrum found out on Monday that there were more colors in the make up of the American people than red and blue; black and white. Surprise, surprise, surprise! What they fail to publicly admit is how close to financial insolvency a significant number of American middle income families are, now that “home ownership,” their main asset for financial security, if not wealth-building, is losing value daily. The National Media Commentariat doesn’t get it either. The growing income gap between rich and poor is now a major chasm. Recent proposals to give more tax breaks to the wealthy, non-producing paper clippers should be heard as the worst kind of obscenities. However, they haven’t.  Why? Nobody in national leadership roles in this country, if not the world, acknowledges the lessons that could be learned from history, in our case, not just the Boston Tea Party but all the succeeding periods of currency devaluation, and declining property values. There were some biggies besides the Great Depression that had us on the verge of true social revolution: the Bonus Marchers and Huie Long’s “Every Man a King” of the 1930’s were very real threats to our form of democracy; the militancy and demands of the unions making up the AFL and the CIO that precipitated many economic crises during the 1940’s and ‘50s were events as significant as any crises that arose during the Cold War period. The Big Mess of the 21st Century has all the elements that caused those political, social and financial meltdowns of the past.  When people reach the tipping point in their lives when they feel that the institutions they support to maintain stability and security in their lives, fail, they will turn to other remedies for pain relief. It will be a total withdrawal of “status respect.” The proffered palliatives of the Bailout Plans benefiting the few by those perceived as the cause of their collective pain and anguish just won’t be swallowed, whole or crushed.

Sabagio Mauraeno, still mixing Metaphors in Decatur Georgia because it’s fun.

Great posts from all, except my insufficient attempt from this morning.

Trying to grasp this moment in time,  as the closest thing to representation of the people, as I have ever felt in my life, how can we take advantage? 

Paolo,

The revolving door in charge of many parts of government is similar through out, starting with the FDA and going across the whole gambit of government offices, top employees come from and support corporate interests.  To me, this is a form of corruption and graft which should be nipped in the bud.  It seems and has been the people having to always fight for crumbs from their own government under the indirection of the media and special interests, shouldn’t the people outnumber them? The special interest’s will try very hard to divide and conquer as usual, however the timing they may have been planned, could bite them on the ass and be proven to been a weak point, for the election of many in Congress, may be forced to listen to the people instead of the lobbyists. 

Paolo, your comment below is only the tip of the iceberg for what is happening in all of government is in all departments. 

“Need I point out that the hardworking, earnest government employees overseeing the Wall Street “liquidity crisis” just happen to be former employees of J P Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns, Shearson, etc. etc. etc.?”

While this tea party is fresh in the minds of the people, we can only try to bring call congress accountable, especially the unresponsive politicians.

Accountability, something new, how would you like to see integrity in action?

I’m one the the millions emailing or faxing my Senators and Representatives in opposition to the bailout - transfer of taxes to corporate profits.

In the classes I teach, and while in waiting rooms I have yet to talk with a single person who approves this bailout.  The overwhelming response is that it is “welfare or socialism” for the rich and corporations.  Our government is of the corporate, for the coporate and by the corporate.

One of my suggestions to the congress is: civil and criminal penalties should be pursued.  Restitution should be made by the individuals and corporations responsible.  This would include CEO’s, senior and executive management, operational employees directly involve in these fraudulent practices, members of the boards of directors and those with regulatory and/or over sight responsibilities.  Seize property and assets.

Protect the working folks.

Damn if I don’t have a rich fantasy life!

Well said, Paolo!

Cran Berry, I agree—we need a “Defenestration of Washington”; a mass defenestration.

Why can’t Robert Sheer and other progressive commentators see the elephant in the room? This is not a problem with a few greedy speculators on Wall Street who were let off the leash.

This is a failure of the Federal Reserve System that enabled speculative behavior. Greenspan, mouthpiece for the system, was not simply cheerleader for deregulation, he was the guy that opened the credit spigots that inflated the bubbles.

The Fed created this crisis, Robert. Why don’t you point your finger at the Fed?

And if you want to regulate Wall Street and put these guys back on a leash, you might ask yourself how you’re going to regulate the Fed, which has clearly revealed itself to be the enabler for a political interest group, namely that pack of wild dogs that has created this crisis.

However, you may find the regulation of the Fed somewhat problematic since the Congress has no real oversight over it. It has never been subjected to an audit.

Don’t you think it’s time for the people to take control of the monetary system. Isn’t that the fight in Congress right now. Then why not call it what it is, a populist revolt in the Congress.

Why not take a principled stand and demand that the monetary machine created by and for the financial class be nationalized so that it may be operated in the interest of all the people?

Very interesting; apparently Americans are very passionate about the current financial bullshit spouted by Paulson/Bush.  They (American citizens) finally discovered the power of contacting their elected representatives and threatened to kick their asses out on the street if they vote for this blatant robbery of their hard earned dollars.  Too bad ya’ll never figured this out 7 years ago.  What I find incredible is that no one has said a word about the “new” found power of the people.  That is the real story today.  Just don’t lose the momentum!

I GOT SO TIRED OF MY SWEAT SUPPORTING THE RICH and MY TAXES SUPPORTING THE POOR….while WALL STREET SETS THE PRICES I PAY FOR GOODS AND SERVICES…JUST SO RICH PEOPLE CAN GET RICHER…....THE RICH SHOULD PAY THE HIGHEST TAXES…..Our middle class[who are nearly extinct]CAN NOT CARRY THE WEIGHT OF AMERIKA ANY LONGER!!!

A libertarian observation:

We all learned from our earnest eighth grade government school indoctrinators that we needed government regulation of business. The myth they taught was that earnest, hardworking government employees would objectively oversee businesses and make sure they wouldn’t harm the public.

Back in the real world, we discovered that such regulatory agencies were almost inevitably headed by representatives of the businesses allegedly being regulated. Gosh, no conflict of interest there!

Need I point out that the hardworking, earnest government employees overseeing the Wall Street “liquidity crisis” just happen to be former employees of J P Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns, Shearson, etc. etc. etc.?

Are we beginning to understand?

Congress shoulda, coulda, and woulda…ya in a pigs ass will they do the righteous thing. As long as beer is cheap and gas is available the proles will gladly submit to thievery by those rich folk that control our country, it is called fascism. Best quote to come from an elected id:
“We are now in the golden age of thieves. And where I come from we put thieves in jail, we don’t bail them out.” — Rep. Pete Visclosky, Democrat.” But it ain’t gonna happen. So wisely choose who you will vote for: Plan J or Plan O..both are selling us out. Kucinich is the the only one to vote for…I forgot most Amerikans cannot write…come on depression, gotta love these coming consequences.

I too was chagrined when columnists, like Herbert and even Krugman, who I am normally in complete agreement with, denounced the NO vote on the bailout, and I find myself in agreement with Gingrich and Dobbs. How much of a crisis is it, yes, as we are being stampeded into writing a 700 billion dollar blank check? Maybe if the financial markets took a 2-4 week holiday,(and didn’t they after 9-11?) while sensible legislation was crafted, we’d have much broader support. And weren’t the tactics of fear used to rush us into the Iraq War?
Clearly what many object to is the “socialization” of the losses… shouldn’t the people who made the mess bear a large share of the responsibility in paying for it? This is NOT a hurricane… a natural disaster, that bore little or no relationship to human behavior. To use in ways unintended, Churchill’s dictum about the Battle of Britain: “Never have so many owed so much (because) of so few.”
There has to be a CLEAR message that the latest speculative period is FINISHED. Tough Congressional oversight of how every penny is spent. Why not a tax, at the 80% rate, retroactively, on anyone in the Financial services industry who made more than five million a year, from 2000 to the present? (One TRADER alone “earned” several Billion dollars (yes, that is with a “B”) during the last year… and they have the effrontery to lobby Congress to pay taxes at the 15% rate.  Of course, there would be significant howls, and for some it would be “unfair”, but how much more unfair is it saddling EVERY American with a debt of several thousand dollars?
Finally, what about the “Fire Next Time,” to quote James Baldwin?  Greenspan says he can not recognize a “bubble” when we are inside one. Well, I can, and I have not gone much beyond Economics 101.  We can NOT continue to borrow money from foreigners forever. Ten trillion in national debt, and we continue to borrow as though there is no tomorrow. That to will come to a much more catastrophic end that the current Wall Street mess. Solving this problem means looking at a lot more than a 3 million dollar DNA bear study. It means looking at the military -industrial complex, the current doctrine of endless war, and yes, those two most dreaded words in the American vocabulary, “Higher Taxes.”
- John Paul Jones

If history serves me right, before the financial collapse of 1929, and the ensuing “Great Depression,” there was absolutely no regulation of the banking and securities and exchange industries.  If you can call fleecing hardworking and industrious Americans, industry then I must be Whistler’s Mother: which I am not, I am male.
The Securities and Exchange Commission, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and the Homeowner’s Loan Corporation, were all formed out of the need for regulation and relief for the consumer. Sadly, under President Reagan, continuing with Bush I, then onto President Clinton, who had as his treasury secretary, the same type of person the shrub has, a former head of a speculative loan bank, Goldman Sachs, these men, the presidents have all, worked to tear down the New Deal protections that were put in place to protect the consumer and member of society, for whom the arcane world of High Finance was out of reach and out of their ken.
I have a distinct problem with the ethics of hiring someone for Treasury Secretary, who has a history of working for the very companies that as a government official he will be regulating. The smell of it as Rep. Dennis Kucinich, put it is quite the stink and should be looked into. And now that the “Bailout Bill,” has been defeated for the moment, the Congress needs to take a fresh look and have hearings and seriously inquire into the need for this $700 Million dollar debacle. Which by the way, if the economists and brokers on Wall Street were true capitalists, would not take, for they too would be against government support of any kind, being true capitalists of course. But they are not, these men and women, want government intervention on their own terms, which would screw the taxpayers out of much more than $700 Billion Dollars, tanking the dollar, causing widespread homelessness, extreme poverty, and no doubt the worst depression in history.  All the while, the men and women of Wall Street would be seizing your homes, through foreclosure and bankruptcy. Thereby obtaining the hard assets they need to overcome this bad-paper-induced monetary crisis.
If anything, the Congress, needs to write in legislation that will protect the homeowner, while giving tax relief to the “middle class,”  not the wealthy and uber-rich that have fleeced America.
Should this scenario not happen, then I foresee, massive amounts of homelessness as never seen in this country, unemployment at rates that will be shocking to the baby-boomers who in their lifetime have mostly had work. The dollar, will be worthless as a common exchange on the world market, the oil rich countries will switch to the Euro or the British Pound or the Chinese Yuan as the medium of exchange for the oil necessary to sustain their economies.
But this has not happened as of yet, and hopefully won’t happen at all.

This article is important, for we the people need to realize our nation has been sold down the river for many years.  Corporate interests and   Good old boy cronyism has led us to this ground breaking Boston Tea Party of 2008, hope this is not the end of it,?

Paul and his ex Wall Street buddies telling us how to save Wall Street, is most gratifying knowing they did not prevent it,  somehow this does not make me feel more comfortable We are supposed to believe he is representing the people?  Do you believe for one second he gives a crap about the people,? 

Bush the grand believer of cronyism promoted his agendas,  showing opportunism at it’s finest.  Scandal after scandal coming from the White House over the last eight years, and now, we are supposed to leave our destiny in the hands of a crony and his buddies and their buddies?

Congress did the right thing by not jumping on the Chicken Little band wagon, without checking some sort of plan,  how long will reason survive the pressure and lies coming from special interests and their supporters? 

Now the Senate is going to come up with a plan. Will Wall Street will be in the room?  Now that I think of it, the last time I was handed 7 billion dollars,  I was in the room making sure they got my Swiss Bank account number correct.

We need to support those representative who represent the people and throw the rest out, this is the first push back we have for support of the people in a long time.  How long will we last?

Just watched the most informative program I have seen to date on the “bailout”; loved the sign that said it is not capitalism here in the USA it is crapitalism most; only thing that has stopped this from going thru is the people;****www.democracynow.org; (site) folks: watch tonights (or this AM’s) program; it’s 2:20AM here but well worth staying up for! Two extremely informed folks there telling you that if the people will take the inititive & call call call: trust me the folks are there in force! wish I were to! it will be stopped from getting through: they offer clear & precise plans that should be done & more! Said folks are forgoing ideology & left/right/dem/rep & coming back to practicality & what this nation is supposed to be & do: for the PEOPLE and NOT for Corps & personal greed! Amazing what they have done for Corps & wealthy in bankruptcy; ********my thoughts were bring our people back from Iraq & Afghanistan & take the Funds that they had plenty of for the ‘weapons conferences & put in our schools! And for our disabled vets! By flippin God, some of us are just WAITING for everyone else to join in & TAKE this nation BACK again! Lets let the PEOPLE say how it will be done: instead of getting jerked around by stupid Corporations! Who need to be brought into control by the Gov or the GOV has to GO!

no we are not; you are not seeing or hearing us due to media censorship by the Corps & wealthy who block & censor us! FREEDOM NOW! is our cry: from Corp slavery and false fronts that pretend to be & do a job which they do not! (FDA) & others: trust me: most folks want to go 1st to Washington & then to the St Gov’s offices & Congress: and take care of business; clean them out of there! (it runs from Feds, to Govs, to countys to cities) amazing how with “no money” they get huge increases in salaries huh; *****

I wish this really was the 2nd American Revolution…  We are in desperate need of an informed revolt.  I am dismayed to find the informed revolutionaries are in short supply.