Folk--I am afraid that you are correct.

As long as the US govt has everyone stil buying into the Reagan “trickle down theory” (ie piss on the poor), everyeon will keep waiting for “manna from heaven”. (Or, “You’ll get your reward in heaven. The meek shall inherit the earth")

We should get used to saying, “Are you finished with that? Will you give me the crumbs when you are done?”

And “Is there anything I can do for you, sir? Anything at all? Really. Anything.”

Foosh, KDelfi, they could have given the money to the homeowners in trouble instead of the bankers, as Paul Craig Roberts and other economists have stated.  This is not going to cure anything, and an indication of that is that the stock market went DOWN when the swindle was legalized.  Once one raid on the treasury is successful, why not try another one.  Who is going to stop them, the Dems?

Mar, I don’t know what Rudmin smokes but I know he is an honest and courageous truther, a Canadian who tries to warn people against predation.  That is why he is teaching in the Artic, Kronse in Norway.  The next step is putting him in a boat in the Artic sea.

He documents everything he says carefully.  I don’t like his truths casually dismissed by know nothings without examining them.  It is the same way 9/11 truthers are dismissed by people afraid to think outside the conventions of the mainstream truth.

Fair enough MAR but it doesn’t seem to me that a real meltdown has been avoided. Certainly there is no guarantee of this.
The trouble is that greed has been allowed free reign for so long and the reckless practice of living off unsustainable credit—at both national and individual level—has been growing and growing for just as long so that there is no end in sight.  Things are so bad that the bail out legislation can do no more than paper over the cracks—absent a more radical rectification of an utterly flawed system.
I suppose the US stands a better chance going the next mile under Obama than McCain but I don’t have a strong sense that Obama really gets it. He has played the system as it is in a masterful manner but he is about as deeply immersed in it as it is possible to be. We are not within a million miles of seeing a US president who has anything other than massive wealth at his or her disposal—with all the encumbrances tha that entails. . 
And here in Canada I think Harper is too sanguine about our financial prospects but I wouldn’t wish an NDP Federal government or even an official NDP opposition on anyone.

MAR--I will give you that. You could be exactly correct. We will just never know, though.

I just wish that they had done it some other way. The Swedish model of 1989 was a good one. They certainly seem to have recovered.

I’m not sure we will do as well, if we cannot convince the govt to abandon this reckless, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism

Thanks for reply.

KDelphi:

It is a quastion of what is needed from an economic view for me, but I understand how the average American must feel, arip-off of the ordinary taxpayer. But i do believe the possible consequences of a real meltdown would have been much worse - unimaginable for most Americans today..

MRA and Ted--Well, there seems to be some disagreement among our Canadian friends about the US WS Bailout. I guess it all really depends on where you are standing--what type of stand you will take.

To my mind, Congress took an extremely cowardly stand. The first time it was announced, I thought, “NO WAY! W is just doing this to drain the Treasury for the next Administration. Let them fall!” (In principle, I still feel that way--but, when people are hurting, you have to weigh the consequences) I guess Congress thinks that they did. I do not.

Th day after the announcement, I emailed and talked to family and friends who have IRAs--many were in tears (none are rich), and, some even said, “Hell, have then do ANYTHING!”. (The problem with that is, I’m not sure at all that this will help long term, and it does nothing to resolve the situation that caused it.)

There were many suggestions and Amendments offered by one Socialiost and several Democrats. (To progressives touting GOP faux populism,. please check the rest of their voting record before you decide that the only vote they ever made, that matters to you, was about this.)

That being said, the GOP probably did it--for the defense of Friedman style , unregulated capiatalist “free” markets. They are terrified that they will be seen for what they are. Win at any price, take any unfair advantage, lie to people, steal --whatever. It all works out, because the “market knows best”. (They ignore the fact that alot of them--and alot of Dems--would never be where they are, if there was a truly level playing field) The Dems may be a LITTLE better (although most of them have not shown themselves to be so, as of late), and wil give you another tax rebate, to buy a nicer tent with.

I am not saying all GOP feel that way--but, it has been the Gold Standard of their party since Reagan. It is now showing how it “works”. Oh, yes--make no mistake--this , in their minds, has worked. It’s a simple “market correction”. “The poor wil always be among us” and other absurdities.

Congress couldve taken up ideas from Sen. Sanders, Reps. Kucinich, Kaptur, Sherman, DeFazio and others. Instead, they put in another $150 billion in TAX BREAKS! (We NEED some revenue, folks! And the poor just dont have any money!) This just made it all worse.

To the average person it seems like a big rip-off, because it is. I guess they had to do something (I’m thinking of my sister and some friends, here--plus the intl. ramifications)). But, I believe that this wil only be a Band-aid, and , when the problem inevitably reccurs, what wil they do? Suggest more tax cuts? What wil happen to the social safety net we need so badly? What will happen to the people who are out of their houses (we just do not have enough decent affordable housing here).

I also, still think that this sure came at a opportunistic time for Bush and McCain. We’ve been through these “panics” with W before, yet, the neo-cons always make the stakes so high ("We’re All gonna die at the hands of Muslim terrorists, if we dont invade a totaly unrelated country!!” or “We cannot get into New Orleans to help! If peopel had just evacuated...blah. blah!!"), that it is akin to ransom!

Now it’s “We wil take down the world economy if you dont give us what ittle money you may have left!!” Leave it in a brown bad , under the bridge, all 100s , in unmarked bills.

Like I said, if they were gonna f**k us, they shouldve taken us to dinner and a movie, at least.

Thank you MAR. For those of you who are not familiar with Canada I would like to say as a much newer Canadian (with roots going back to 1652 South Africa)that everything he says about Canada is accurate and helpful. 
There is no resl two party system in Canada which is in some ways a plus but our Senate is even worse than yours in the US.  It is simply a patronage based excrescence.  We do share one major thing in common with the US. In an extremely fast moving world governments ought to be and need to be nimble on their feet. But it is just as difficult to change and improve our government structure as it is in the US. 
MAR is totally correct when he says that with a majority government our prime minister is far more powerful than the US president. He makes appointments to the supreme court and the senate.  And in very truth we live in a kind of serial dictatorship which makes it awkward but not impossible to change the government. 
We do have a Charter of Rights and freedoms but I regret to have to say that freedom takes a bck seat to an absolute obsession with rights (at the expense of freedoms) and our human rights commissions have gone completely off the rails. 

As an outsider I think it is a crying shame that the bailout bill went through in the US. It does nothing to correct the real cause or causes of the financial debacle and neither Obama nor McCain had the guts to align themselves with the NO voters. The sheer size and thus unworkability of the bill is nothing short of an utter disgrace.
Both the Obama camp and the McCain camp are talking about change and—whilst some changes will occur --I do not see the kind of real change which is needed in the offing. A Ralph Nader or even a Ross Perot would indeed be able—with much effort—to bring about real change but the two party system and electoral college nonsense kills any such hope.

By moineau, October 3 at 11:02 am #

well, i certainly called that one wrong. blumenauer: no. wu: yea. i apologize to blumenauer. wu gets an angry letter.

I think they stuck their finger in the air and took cover.  Wu fell on his sword, and Blumenauer, looking like he’d be bonged, declared that his vote was still No, knowing full well that the bill was going to pass anyway.
The chatter on C-SPAN tells me the political operatives have come together and have a story line that Barney Frank and Bill Clinton and all the poor (read black) people in the US conspired to undo the free market.
I still say vote third party, send a message.  With BO it looks like where not going to get what this country needs anyway so swing for the fences.

I am a retired university professor. One of the few downsides of retirement is having more time to follow the machinations of our “leaders.” I look at what our business/political leaders have done to our economy, what our religious leaders are trying to do with our personal lives (e.g., Prop. 8 here in California), and how our academic administrators pervert the concept of education. It is very clear that the vast majority of them are sociopaths.

Moving to Alaska and becoming a hermit seemed like a good option. Then they sprung Sarah Palin on us!

Sabagio--Canada , in general, is a Constitutioanl Monarchy.

If you think that the US is “free’ from that--think again. There seems to be some type of genetic pre-disposition towards “followship”.

They have the Queen (who is a figurehead), but we have THE BUSHES and the CLINTONS and the KENNEDYS.

The encumbancy rate in both Houses is ridiculous. (we need term limits)

And, as it stands, anyone who is not a millionaire, has not a chance of a snowbal in hell of ever reaching the White House.

Sebagio:
Nope, she is just an archaic holdover because moving to a republic still means a head of state and still maintain a parliamentary House of Commons and Senate to maintain the British model of democracy. The Canadian Senate is even more useless, an unelected body of old farts and fartesses drawing high pay for next to nothing. There have been movements to abolish it or make it elected. 

And tyhe Queen doesn’t sign anything now, the Governor General, who is just as useless and powerless figurehead does it on her behalf. They can’t refuse to sign so they are powerless.
What kind of head of state should we have? A President - that has a veto? Neither the Queen nor her rep, the Governor General have a veto.  They are archaic just as the Electoral College is an archaic provision meant for 1800.

After getrting Bush instead of Al Gore, I am sure there are many who would like the Electoral College provision to be washed out of the Constitution. That is one problem with written Constitutions, hard to change without near unanimity.

So the Quuen and the Governor General have no veto but just do what they are told.  The only benefit of the present GG is that she is kind of cute. But a figurehead is just that.  It bugs a lot of us, particularly those who don’t come from a Brit background, and there have been cries to do away with it. But everything like this means opening up the constitution which is loaded (remember when Quebec threatened to separate? - dormant but not dead. Few take the Queen seriously except a few monmarchists, mostly from Brit land and crusty old dames equivalent to the DAR. 

In fact, with a majority government the Prime Minister has more power than your Pres; in a minority situation he (or she) has to mind her Ps and Qs.

Democracy and Canada

Democracy and Canada

Ah, American Democracy! Isn’t it fun that we can still criticize the government, make fun of the leadership on late-night talk shows and for the most part, get away with it? We can blame it all on the Athenian Greeks. Their democracy didn’t call for elected representatives .  Citizens didn’t elect friends or rich people, in hopes that they’d be voting in the best interests of all the people. Nope, no surrogates. Citizens HAD to all vote on legislation and executive bills as individuals. Every time something needed to be voted on, about 1000 citizens were rounded up by a process that looked like a lottery held by the old- time local Army draft board. Athens operated on a slave-based economy, so the voting body came from a very small group. An oligarchy? The unique thing about this bunch was it was made up of people, citizens, from all economic classes. And just like today’s late night standup comedy routines of Leno and Letterman, et. al., Athenian voters were influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the Greek theaters. Slaves, foreigner and especially women didn’t have a vote. Maybe that’s why this rotating voting block made Socrates drink poison. He wasn’t very funny; no sense of humor.  Free speech protection wasn’t on the list of this direct democracy’s daily list of things to do. Athenian democracy didn’t last very long either.  Once the local professional pols found the loopholes in the system, they took over and the rest is history.

And there is Canada, where the grass is greener, where they play a funny kind of American football, and everything, all the time is Cool.  It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to know that this is True.  Just go to Niagara Falls and see how the American side differs from the Canadian. But every so often I have reservations about Canadian democracy as being the standard of “best practices” by a sovereign democratic nation.  How can I when every official government proclamation and law signed off on by a Prime Minister, has to end with “Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, Queen of Australia and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth?” Elizabeth Two seems to be a nice enough woman, though something of a fuddy-duddy.  Despite all these grandiose titles and accolades, isn’t she still just an accident of birth, and nothing else?  Does the Commonwealth membership just keep her around in case something Really bad happens, so she can be served up as Chief Scapegoat, to go along with all her other titles?

KDelphi:
Not relevant to the meltdown etc but of record one of our PMs did effect two or three MAJOR constitutional changes. The first was the patriation of the constitution from Britain. As you know, we were once a colony with the usual constraints but because of the American Revolution Britain decided to gradually let the four major colonies grow up - by that I mean Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. In 1931 the Statute of Westminster declared all to be self-governing indepedent countries But each had the Crown as its head and all as members of the British Coimmonwealth of Nations. Since then Ireland, South Africa and India have left the Commonwealth, which is largely a cooperative tie. Any of them could have submerged, even Britain itself, and the Crown would still be viable. If you like, constitutionally we are a monarchy but Elizabeth is Queen of Canada quite independently of Britain. So there was left this funny anachronism that our highest court was still the British House of Lords (they usually did as directed) and constitutional changes required the rubber stamp of the Brit House of Parliament. Stupid, and they too did what they were asked. Trudeau brought the amendment of our constitution under the sole control of the Canadian people (provincial and federal). Then he led the feds and the provinces in a radical but overdue imbedded constitutional revision called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (probably inspired by the US Bill of Rights). Matters are decided by our Supreme Court but ther is not the same concept of balance of powers as in the US.  So in those respects we have very strong individual freedoms but when a government has a majority it can do what it likes within the constitution.

Canadians are like Americans? To a degree. My own roots go back to Neu Amsterdam in 1623 and Massachussets Bay Colony near Boston and to Connecticut a little later in 1639 but some of my ancestors disagreed with the Revolution and came north as loyalists. They were supplemented by others from Scotland and England.
. 

Sorry for my remark about SUVs.  “You” is not necessarily you. For myself, I have been driving Toyota Corollas for 16 years - no repairs, great milage, relatively inexpensive and totally reliable. Three hundred thousand kilos on on and going strong on the third. In the meantime SUVs and the like have been creating a huge carbon footprint. How many fourwheelers actually ever go off the road?

Someone else remarked about oil. We do not have shale oil. We have a fair amount of the normal stuff and huge reserves of tar sands which are being developed largely by American companies. When I referred to Saudi Arabia supplying the West I meant the Western World. Canada used to get most of its oil from Venezuela, but now it is a mixed bag depending on transportation costs.

It will be interesting to see now what the US politicos have learned from the abandonment of regulation.
Cheers. Meet you on another thread sometime.

put yourself in a room with like-minded sheep, add george bush and hank paulson. add pork. outside the door, economists with good deas and people like you and me. add foreclosures. add grocery bills. take a picture with your brain. this one will not be forgotten.

why, david, why? there were so many other ways to go…

well, i certainly called that one wrong. blumenauer: no. wu: yea. i apologize to blumenauer. wu gets an angry letter.

MAR--if you think that the US is a good system, you could move here, and I could move to Canada.LOL

Just kidding, of course.

The way the US system is set up, about 50% of the country is unhappy with the current leadership at any one time. (alot more than that with W of course--since they voted him back in--maybe)

I know that, some of the US ideas about Canada being a “big, happy family” are not necessarily applicable, lately. But, I stil think that it is a more fair and just system, that promotes egalitarianism, at least more so than our “electoral college” approach.

Its even a dumbbass name.

But, you would certainly know better than I would. I havent been there in years.

So I guess that’s the end of this thread, the House having done the right thing.

Someone mentioned that Canada had proportional rep. No way. First past the post in all jurisdictions, I think. There will be a referendum on a form of PR next year in one province. It failed the first time around. But minor parties have a role. The New Democratic Party )NDP) in Canada is a strong left=leaning semi-socialoist party. It has never been in power nationally (but provincially) and it was so close at the end of WWII that many of its policies were co-opted by the then Liberal government. But it has a parliamentry system modeled after Great Britain.  PR is the call from the little patrties who never get a look in. But if you want the mess that was Italy after WWII that’s what you get. In my mind the real problem over there is the electoral college concept now way out of date.

In addition the the founding peoples (British and French) we are a very diverse multicultural country with many of the same ethnicities as the US - but fewer of Hispanic heritage and fewer of African heritage - but some of the latter who are descended from the few slaves the Brits had in Nova Scotia, quite a few more descended from those who escaped American slavery, and even more immigrated from the West Indies. We have strong German, Ukrainian, Polish, Italian and Scandanavian descendancies, as well as those from India, Pakistan and the Middle East. Then of course we have had Chinese since the early days of the railway, and now in Vancouver sufficient that it is facetiously called “Hongcouver” by some. And we have the native populations who term themselves “First Nations” But we are all Canadians even though some still carry grudges from their native lands.

Anyway, the bill is passed and preseumably will be Bushed. Nest Problem?

MAR--If you expect to be treated as a diverse population, please be considerate enough to do the same for us.

I’ve never owned an SUV (or any new car) in my life.I have been to Canada many times, and I liek it very much. (Esp. Vancouver, as Folk said).I usually think, what , I believe a Canadian pm said, “If you cant get along with Canadians, who can yu get along with?”.

You may have as diverse a population (i’m not really sure about that), but, I see Canada as more “multi-cultural”, rather than “melting pot”, that the neo-cons here keep pushing. I think that making everyone speak the same language (and no second language), and belittling other cultures than Anglo-Saxon, leads to strife among races, and , ultimately, among classes. (The capitalsits love that!)

The US is a “multi-natl corporate state”. It is rotten to the core. I dont think, that we should do “nothing”. There ae many other models that have been presented, but our “dis-loyal opposition” of Dems. will have none of it. To give such sway to corporations, is to promote fascism.

If they cannot take into account the many suggestions and amendments offered, then, I dont see why we should just bail out the people that caused it. We could take the money and put it in peoples’ IRAs. We could freeze ARMs. We could freeze the prime rate. We could nationalize the banks.

It is election time, and the duopoly is pulling out its October surprise. Yes, it is REAL. But, to further punish the people that are already hurt, and, reward the people who caused it, will just promote further criminality.

FOLKTRUTHER AND OTHERS
I can’t answer all the points buT

1. To the degree that stockholders in the US own stuff all over the world, and that there is a heavy US corporate presence in Canada, you are right. There is also significant Canadian ownership of some companies in the US. This does not mitigate the fact that we are a free and democratic country to the degree that any can be so.  And are you going to march across the border. Come on, most Americans don’t even know the way. They think Mexico when the word border is mentioned.

2. We have had provincial (state) experiments with socialist governments. The problem is that socialists have no idea how wealth is created but do know how to spend. Their various attempts at enterprise have been disasters. Unfortunately, so-called “free enterprise” parties know how to create wealth but in the process forget who helped create that wealth. It is a constant tug from right to left. As a consequence we have a mixed economy, universal health care, a higher tax rate to pay for social democracy which is also present in many forms.

2. I don’t know who your psychologist friend is but the only war we have had was actually between the British and the US during which native Canadians played a significant part. And it was 1812, not 1912. As to 1935, I’d cheeck what your friend is smoking.

3. Yes we are in the US economic sphere - so what? I am sure Bush and his friends were angered when we didn’t support you on IRAQ II just as Johnston was angered when we didn’t support you on Viet Nam. But note that we are part of the NATO/UN contingent in Afghanistan and our people are not too happy about that because it has no promise of permanenmce and our guys are dying in proportion to yours. It is like building sand castles on the beach - when the tide goes out you will never know the West has been there, wiped out by Islamicism.

4. Despite the elephant/mouse metaphor, Americans and Canadians are good friends, but you may make the mistake that “we are just like you.” We are not. We are sometimes not sure who we are. Lately we have become a diverse, multicultural country with two founding peoples - French and English-speaking. I say that because there were a lot of Scottish and Irish too. and since many other peoples from every corner of the earth, all Canadians now.

But the record is clear that while we live next door and have common interests, we are not slaves to the US. Sure you could run over us in a few days and wouldn’t that make you feel proud?  We also get together and tackle the same problems often, (Even though you were three years late in 1914 and two years late in 1939. That’s because we have differences too.

Anyway, my pitch as I said is economics, not the politics of the bailout. I hope I am wrong if some remedy is not done - the Federal Reserve has some tools without Congress, as you may know. If not I suspect we are all in for dark days and you won’t be worried about your SUV because it will have assumed scrap value.

Cheers, Tally Ho and all that.

Sabagio--I agree with almost everything you say. But,dont worry! The Congress wil “get around to it"--after you re-elect them! Right…

But, Hoover?? Churchill?? Sorry.

We are not a democracy. To even approach that, we would need to elect by popular vote,greatly expand the number of viable parties, have proportional representation, etc.

Have a nice R&R;!

Toss those bastards’ asses in jail. Members of Congress today are Cowards of the First Order and Masters of Pussy Footing. What else could they be, since they spend probably 90 % of their time asking money from the same people who caused the Mess they are voting on? If Congress would put forth a “plan” that not only offers realistic remedies for resolving the Current Credit Concerns and Catastrophes, that was balanced with legislation dealing with the underlying root causes of the Why this has happened, then and only then would I have some faith in its Judgment.  But so far they haven’t. Tip O’Neil said, “All politics is local.” If we don’t want to see current events reoccur in the next year or two, some folks need to go to jail; those predatory lenders from Peachtree Street to Wall Street have to be held accountable, debarred from working in the finance industry again. Doctors and Lawyers and chronic DUI offenders have their licenses lifted, so too should these “captains of Industry.” They made loans to people they knew from the gitgo couldn’t make their payments after the ARM kicked in; they practice “flipping” expensive homes, to make illegal profits from inflated listings, they misrepresented the stability and veracity of their management practices and whatever, to get more people to invest in their stocks , companies, investment plans. All this exploitation of the lack of will to enforce even laws on the books, and invisible ethics began on “Main Street” but was endorsed and supported by those who saw an easy way to satisfy the basic tenant “Greed Is Good.” White collar criminals should be subject to the RICO Act just as other members of organized criminal organizations. Today’s Tale of Woe was and is nothing more than a Criminal Conspiracy. Congress should acknowledge as much, and pass legislation that puts these folks in prison for a very very long time. 

Yes, Sir Winston did say: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

If you seek a more insightful and relevant to the times quote, look again to Herbert Hoover:” No public man can be just a little crooked. “

Sabagio Mauraeno, on the way to Peachtree Street for a little R&R;.

Half the $700 Bn goes to the Saudis and the Chinese. 
Read Amy Goodman’s piece about the Sea Smurfs.  They are prepping for martial law. 

Just Remember!

The phone calls in favor were coing from Wall Street employees.  See Brad Sherman’s address to C-SPAN. 

Congress is saying loudly, “Screw you!”
Just Remember!

I am sorry to inform you, Mar, that Canada, which contains my favorite city in the world, Vancouver, is not a free and independant country.  It is largely, but not entirely, a chattel of the US which owns most of its industry.  It’s leaders largely do what the US leaders tell them to because of the military and economic threats it holds over them.

The US has threatened to invade Canada many times, the first time causing the War of 1912.  It is so innocuosly titled to obscure the reason for the war, and our Progressive and Conservative historians go along with the concealment. 

A psychologist in ARtic Norway, a Canadian who I correspond with, detailed how this invasion was planned in 1935.  His name is Rudmin and his pieces are published by Coundterpunch. And not published in whole by the mainstream media.

On the other hand, the institutions and atmosphere is so much better in Canada.  Pretty young girls, with backpacks, hitch hike BY THEMSLEVES, in isolated places near Vancouver, secure in the knowldege that they are safe.  People don’t lock their doors, and walk howe at night in the dark without fear. 

There are, incidentially, more guns per capita in Canada than in the US, but the people don’t use them to shoot each other or themselves.  A wonderful country. But not free and independent.

i live in oregon, blumenauer was always like that and is a perfect example of the peter principle. i love my congressional rep, david wu. he signed on to impeachment discovery. i am on my knees that he hold firm.

The new bailout bill sweetens the pot to $850 bn.  Part of it is a tax write-off for bicycles, the Blumenauer bribe.  Take a closer look at Blumenauer.  He was gaga in the presence of Karl Rove and Frank Lundt 2 years ago when they were trying to tutor him on the language to use in the campaign to privatize water.  One of the first legislative moves was to outlaw the collection of rain water by private citizens.

The could have bribed Blumenauer with a bag of chips.

MAR--Gawd. I just typed a long post to answer some of your questions.

I have an old pc, and it just goes “whoosh! sometimes. Oh well. Too late to re=type it.

Suffice it to say that I think the House needs to take into account some of the protections and regulations proposed by Kucincih, Kaptur, DeFazio, Shewrman and Sanders. Rather than adding more tax cuts.

I like and admire Canada very much.  I wish we had your system. It is proportional and more representative.

I think that this is the Shock Doctrine again, and, the stock mkt is NOT “free” and wil do as it will, in any case.

The US is not a democaracy. The Dems have won two electionns in a row that they wouldnt fight to claim.

The Dems in the Senate just addded more tax cuts. We needa alot less of that. We are drowning in debt.

I honestly thought you were from the EU--I know it is hard to emigrate there.

In any case, where money is involved, it always passees inthe US anyway. All the Senators saying it is “the msot important vote of their careers”. I wish they had taken the Iraq War resolutins so seriosulsy. If you want to get Americans attention it takes dollars--or , maybe Euros, soon.

It should also effect the rich quite a bit. Until that happens, nothing gets done..

Our president a dictator, our Senate a cluster of silverback fuckups. The ‘Recovery Bill’ passed yesterday only made it because the bastards threw in over $100 billion of pet pork bordering on the ridiculous, and folks, that is being paid for by workers’ sweat and toil. Now it is a done deal that even the reactionaries in our House will likely pass a bill tomorrow that will sell us all out to give the banks our money, with no health care, no full employment, or any other social programs that we are owed in return.

No deal. No bailout. Let Wall St fall. Learn to live without credit card debt. Quit buying SUVs. Quit buying consumer goods except essentials. Quit smoking and drinking. Car pool. Become active in your union. Write letters, make phone calls to your legislators, but keep the rhetoric tame, since the Repugs will turn the letters over to the secret police. This deal will not be the salvation of capitalism. It is already done. A European, socialist model is necessary, and 100 more bank failures into the future, when the Federal Reserve can no longer back a dollar or guarantee a savings account, it will buckle and adopt the kind of system necessary.

KDelphi;

I must confess, close enough for us both to visit and peek in the windows. Here in Canada we have often done dumb things - like going to war against Hitler in 1939 and Japan the day after Pearl Harbour, having spent four years in 1914-8 losing a proportionately huge chunk of our manhood to the war and mud.

And we lost soldiers, sailors and airmen disproportionate to our small population in WWII as well. We were in Korea and I was proud to serve voluntarily as part of that, another UN operation where the US was the big player. But we refused to go along with Viet Nam, probably because it was a unilateral act by the US which made no sense. We went along with Iraq I because it was a clear violation of a neighbour’s territory which could have carried on into Saudi Arabia. Although not a place I admire, it is the source of the majority of our Western oil, the basis of our economies. Also it was a joint effort under the UN, despite that the US carried the major burden. On the other hand we did not go along with Iraq II because the evidence for WMD was not open or convincing and it was another unilateral act by the US, despite the few others that went along.

Our hearts bled for the loss of so many, including 26 of our own in 9/11, and in the emergency we found a safe spot for hundreds of planes to land.  Many of our Maritime folk welcomed your people in, fed them, and found beds for them until they could take off. 

My point is that we are a free, independent democracy which lives close enough for us to visit and admire, but sometimes too overpoweringly close because of the many foilbles which go against our national grain. As one of our prime ministers said, the US is the elephant and we are the mouse. When the elephant rolls over we have to watch our step.

“Educated” does not necessarily mean having a degree. I know men and women that had little or no formal schooling but who were educated in the real sense of the word - they had learned how to think, ask the right questions, weigh values, search for the right answers and then put their money where their mouth was. They did not blame others for systemic problems but sought to find those with solutions, people with integrity, honesty and wisdom to represent them. They paid no attention to hoopla or casual promises crafted to buy the vote but looked at how those who offered themselves performed throughout life as they had to live it.

Bush may be educated in the sense of degrees, but his performance clearly shows him to be a shallow, stupid man. An educated fool, if you like. A virtual puppet of those behind the scenes. 

We are, like you, just now going to the polls on Oct 14 to select a party to form the government and lead us wisely. We have a different system. Sometimes I admire the US Constitution because of its balance of powers and personal guarantees. But when the people get fed up with the government you have to wait,short of impeachment.  If it is bad enough our representatives can turf out the government if they have enough support of individual members of parliament. The party system tends to allow those with overwhelming support to serve their usual full term of four to five years.  There are dolts and asses among the bunch but we will see. Our people tend to forget the crap and vote their mind and conscience.

Democracy is very inefficient but as Churchill said, “It is the best of all the bad options. Or something like that.

But please don’t let your anger at what has gone on
make you unable to find a solution. Another contrary vote in the House would be very bad - never mind the rich, but for you, for us and for all the world. 
There are those of mind to show the bastards but it would be a Phyrric victory. Everybody loses.

We will see.

Anybody out there watch C-SPAN.  Rep Sherman of CA said it.  50% of $700 bn goes to foreign investors.  Saudis, Chinese.....

This cannot pass.

I wish Capuano could be replaced by Sherman. I am voting for AR (any Republican) in November for Congress and Senate.  Unless, of course, there’s a 3rd party candidate.
These people are toxic.

Moineau

Great poem.  I have felt the mood that that poem describes.

i second the sanders speech. he really gave it to them about all the banking lobbyists running roughshod through the building, by name! so much for the anti-lobbyist speak.

“Actually, I’m positive that we really need you as a VA claims adjudicator NOW, and that’s likely to be the case for years to come. We’ll find a way for you to work from home. (I have to, you might as well too.):)”

thanks for your response, cyrena; truly appreciated it.

i do work from home, volunteer style, on va stuff. on the social side, i work on line with vets who were sexually assaulted in the military, on a group with men and individually with women the organization hooks me up with. i help with their claims if incomplete (most are as they have been mistreated by both the military and the va) and provide support with daily living issues. to be honest, they help me just as much.

i’m also active in an art group called presimulationist art which is looking at and creating art that reflects how our world is becoming more and more virtual. i get a lot of intellectual stimulation as well as good companionship there. after several years of quiet, i’m writing poetry again. anyone interested, i’m at http://ltattoo.gather.com. poetry under “posts”, songs from poems under “video”.

and then i occasionally blog when an article strikes a nerve and the discussion draws me in. there are great minds on these blogs, and i learn a lot and try to offer the little i know. i really enjoy truthdig readers.

me voilà in some of my glory. value and happiness is about so much more than money, n’est-ce pas? i have enough. ~laura

angiee79,

Bernie Sanders makes the most sense of the nonsense. FYI: His speech why he was voting no.

http://www.truthout.org/100208J

The house hasn’t voted again YET, and we need to be louder than ever in letting our rep’s know that we don’t put them in office to carry out the President’s agenda or to tell us what they think is best. We put them in office (supposedly) to carry out the will of the majority. The majority has spoken loud and clear - THIS BAILOUT IS NOT WHAT WE WANT OR WHATS BEST FOR US! History has shown us that a debt-based society is destined to collapse - how will creating more debt save us?

Bernie Sanders has the most rational plan I’ve read yet. It may not be perfect, but it comes much closer to actually addressing the roots of this problem than anything else Washington has come up with. You can read and sign his petition here:

http://sanders.senate.gov/petitions/?petition=Financia l_Crisis_1

Call your reps if you haven’t already, and call them again if you have!

Voting for GWB...twice.

To MAR.

First, throughout our history, Americans usually voted for men who were mediocre.  A few times, very few, we lucked out and voted for a Washington, a Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR.  So voting for GWB is par for the historical course.

The first time GW became President, Al Gore actually won, but the Supreme Court didn’t see it that way. (Speaking of Al Gore, why aren’t the Democrats using him in the campaign? He’s about the only believable politician around these days, documented.)

The second time, we were still suffering for the 9/ll Shitless Mode, and were in denial that someone else besides Bush and his Buddies could keep us safe.

Voting for the wrong leader doesn’t have anything to do about being “educated.” Neville Chamberlain the British Prime Minister before Churchill, an educated man, sold out to Hitler.  The German People of the 1930’s were thought to be the most civilized and scientific of cultures, but they bought Nazi Science on the “master race” and racial purity” via a national policy of ethnic cleansing, and Hitler political ideology about “lebensraum “ and the Ukraine was Germany’s for the taking because Germans could make better use of it.

Believe it or not, Herbert Hoover, our President at the start of the last Great Depression, had a wonderful insight about this political phenomenon.

“Every collectivist revolution rides in on a Trojan horse of ‘emergency’.
It was the tactic of Lenin, Hitler, and Mussolini. In the collectivist
sweep over a dozen minor countries of Europe, it was the cry of men
striving to get on horseback. And ‘emergency’ became the justification
of the subsequent steps. This technique of creating emergency is the
greatest achievement that demagoguery attains.

Hoover also said:

“Economic depression cannot be cured by legislative action or executive pronouncement. “

Desperate peoples do desperate things, often very bad things, or, very dumb things, in the belief that they will survive, live on, out last.

And that’s the way it is.

Sabagio Mauraeno, in Decatur Georgia with a sore arm from a recent flu shot.

Sorry, that should be http://www.democracynow.org

Sorry, http://www.democracynow.org

For Tony and cyrena who have argued all summer that third parties serve no purpose in American politics todays democracynow broadcast makes the case much better than I and several others have done here.
hppt://www.democracynow.org Spin it if you can.

You asked, Mar, how a well-educated country like the US can elect an intellectually deficient president.  I’m glad you asked, that’s how you learn.

We do it precisely because we are well Educated. Education consists of both specialist truths, which are largely true, intermixed with ideological truths, which largely aren’t.  The latter gibberish we are indoctrinated with inculcates the American power delusions that the Educated classes hold instead of the simple truth about historical reality.

We beleive for example, that the US is a Democracy even though all knowledgeable truthers know that historically the major power decisions are made by a capitalist plutocracy.  They fund and support in the media the poltical leaders and we get to choose which one will rip us off.  As the ruling class has gotten richer and more united while the population has remained fragmented and queiesent, they can put in whoever they like.

Such as Dubya Bush, a highly Educated man. He has degrees from the most prestigous universities in the US, and a Higher degree from Harvard university.  Harvard has over thrtyfive billion dollars in assets in its endowment, Mar.  You just don’t get more Educated than that. 

Oh, sure, Bush is an idiot, but he is an Educated idiot.  We insist on that in our leaders; especially the rich.  They can steal more that way.

@ Fahrenheit451

You and your wife are richer than any of those plastic people on Wall Street.

Everyone seems perplexed by the goings on lately.  The Bailout bill pushed by the Democrats, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the threat to Iran and on and on.
I think to start to solve any of this you have to place the blame squarely where it belongs, the Bush Administration.  To counteract any of it you have to understand the Bush Administration. 
I have to go back to my childhood to find an appropriate analogy.  When I was in the first grade, school assemblies used to be called for some reason or another and they were held in the Auditorium/Gymnasium.  The janitors would set up the rows of folding chairs.  One day I stayed behind and when everyone was back in class, the teachers let in this group of students, they called them the ungraded then.  These kids were bigger than the rest of us.  They would run through the Gym knocking over the chairs until the room looked like a bomb hit it.  They would then pick up the chairs and return them to the carts.  The teachers would then round them up and escort them to their classroom on the other side of the building.
Well, that’s who the Bush Administration is.  They’re wreckers.  They know that someone will have to pick up the mess or leave it be.  It doesn’t matter to them.  They just know how to Wreck.

Leerfeller:
No sweat.

If the shoe fits I guess one must wear it, otherwise ignore it.

Incidentally the ones I refer to think the world is 6000 years old, not 60000 as I typed. Pardon my finger trouble. And we have had universal health care for many years about 50, more or less. Depends whether you are talking about hospital care or doctor’s fees.

MA-what country are you from? I sure hope it wasnt one of those western democracies that went along with all the stupid Bush ideas.

I think that, for people who did everything humanly possible to stop Bush, your self-righteous indignation is ill-placed.

I would love to get out of the uS. But, countries like yours probably wont accept any emigration , unless they have alot of money.

People here, who are not wealthy , have no safety net whatsoever. I dont think taht asking for a ‘bone” is too much to ask.

Mar,

I agreed with your comment, seems it may have been the semantics I had a problem with. 

Right and left is really in my opinion a tool used to create division, the eternal us and them.

When someone says “you” on a post, I do not take it personal, but I may call attention to them, as I did with yours, for I can potentially perceive myself as the “you”.

Leerfeller: Sorry buddy, I am not allowed to vote in your elections and the Bush tribe would not even be on my list if I did. Because of the dominant two-party system in your country it is currently a choice of what??

And as to Palin, since when was a journalism major education?

No, I guess if I were a citizen of your country with a vote I would vote for departure. I could not stay in a country where such a huge percentage are ignorant right-wing fundamentalists who believe the world is 60000 years old (as does Palin, I read) nutcrackers, quiet racists and greedy guses. And you are right about the overwhelming influence of the very rich who buy your governments.

No, while my views may seem to be right-wing, actually I believe in universal health care (we have it) and social democracy generally. While we may seem blah we mainly hew to the centre, which in our view is somewhat to the left of the Democratic Party.

My comments on the bailout are based on economics, not politics. Thank you for responding.

New World Order

Business/Finance
President
Congress/Supreme Court
Eaters

In time the President will be subsumed into the Business/Finance tier.  Congress will pass such things as laws to control the eaters who threaten to overpopulate and the Supreme Court will strike down Women’s rights and socially progressive legislation.
Eaters just consume fight in police actions here and abroad.

KDelphi, you are very welcome.

For an overview of how corporations have stolen our democracy from us, read the timeline available on http://www.californiademocracy.org/. It lists when persons have gained/lost rights and power on the left, and corporations on the right.

I suggest the best way to read it is to begin with the Notes at the end. They give an overview. For example,

As one looks at the timeline, it is apparent that people get their rights primarily by constitutional amendment (the Bill of Rights being the first 10 amendments) and corporations get rights by Supreme Court rulings. This relates directly to the issue of democracy. Judge-made law (even though we sometimes like their rulings) is not democracy.

I first became aware of this by reading “Unequal Protection” by Thom Hartmann.

It absolutely stuns me. I realized back in 1969 that “they” were lying to me. I was in the process of coming out as gay. It dawned on me that my sexual orientation is not my problem; the people who even care about it are the ones who are screwed up.

But it’s only been recently that I have learned how deeply the lies go and how much they are used to control our lives. As I’ve said elsewhere, I truly believe that almost all our “leaders” are sociopaths.

We get back to the three musketeers two party system. “One for all and all for one”. Works quite well for easier control and overseeing the manipulations as they are needed. Containment of ideas are so very well taken care of.  Agendas are planned and provided for as token gestures of being involved in the decision making as voters, when real choices are never available. We only get to choose between selected agendas. 

A solid third or forth party, would upset the pork barrel.

Mar?

“How is that a well-educated country like the US can twice elect a intellectually deficient president who is nothing more than a puppet? The government you have had is the result of who you voted in”.

When you say you, did you vote Bush in?

As for the well-educated country, Palin is a prime example of an alleged Journalism major, who cannot name a Journal. 

No, the government we have is the result of you who voted it in not I.

MAR I dont think that ther is no"credit crunch’. Maybe people need to stop borrowing. You cant run an economy on that, long term. It will just go up and down, up and down.

If businesses cannot meet their payroll, without a loan, they will probably fail anyway. Why not take some of that money, and give it directly to the people who would be laid off?

This has been going on for decades (greatly heightened by the GOP being incharge for 6 yrs). But, the Dems have done nothing to stop it.

Some urban neighborhoods look like ghost towns.

The .least the Dems could have done, would have been to allow amendments. The working class neighborhoods are nOT asking for much.

What in the world makes you think that an $850 billion infusion of capital will stop this meltdown? We’ve already bailed out Fannie mae/Freddie Mac, Bear Stearns. etc. But, it just keeps getting worse.

To throw money at Wall St. and expect them to do the right thing, is foolish.

I campaigned against Bush as much as I possibly could. The Dems were not much help. Gore should never have given up as quickly as he did, nor Kerry.

People are tired of DC ignoring their very legitimate conplaints aobut inequality, Wall St., K St. etc.

Where do you think this money will come from? Why shouldnt the elites have to clean up their own mess for a change? I would take all of their assets and pay off loans. Do you have any idea what we could do with, just the bonuses these guys got?

It is unjust, and people know it.

What a lot of nonsense on this thread! For example, one poster quoting mortgage interest rates and saying there isn’t a credit crunch. What is at risk is the FUTURE, not the present. By the time a number has become a statistic it is irrelevant to this discussion. The question of supporting existing paper is not a question of the past or present, but of the near future.

The anger is on this thread is understandable and the trepidation of representatives as they all face election is also understandable. But without facing reality they are dead in the water anyway and will face an even more angry electorate when their failure to act in the House becomes evident. The question is not about Bush or how the Republicans since Reagan have unleashed the controls that would havce prevented this fiasco, but how to get out of it. Nor is the issue that some wealthy companies might get bailed out.  It is about the probable results of a failure in confidence in the US, not just in the stock markets, but in trust and confidence in the general economy. The problem is that in a ship of fools, who gets to steer?  If it is the collection of neo-Marxists and Nilhists and uninformed who represent some on this thread, then I have a great deal of difficulty seeing how you can avoid a serious downturn. The economy isn’t just the rich guys, it is everybody not only in the US but across the world.

How is that a well-educated country like the US can twice elect a intellectually deficient president who is nothing more than a puppet? The government you have had is the result of who you voted in.

As wrong as Bush and his buddies have been, this is not about saving him or the Republicans, but the staving off a serious risk to the economy of the western world.

I hope the members of the House stop shaking in the