G.Anderson,

Listen to these candidates and you can be sure that we will be in one or more invaded svereign nations with either of them. Does it make a difference if the combat troops are in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan? Do you care that both of these guys support long term base commitment in Iraq, and the other 700+ bases throughout the world? Do you think who the US commander in chief is will matter to the children who lose lives, limbs and relatives?

Yea, McCain is a necon. But yea, Obama is a neoliberal. Both get you American war. Believe it. Let’s stop the delusion!

Some can marginalize Nader but if he or McKinney were on the stage last night wow what a real difference we’d see. Maybe Obama would actually have to show some backbone. Going toe to toe with the ultra right to show that you can pull the military trigger too, is more of the same.

Enough!

McCain Sounded just like Bush in his first term. There’s no question in my mind that if he’s elected we will remain in Iraq for at least 10 more years to the cost of several trillion dollars, I don’t think he would hesitate to bomb Iran.

Iran has already said that a naval blockade would be considered an act of war. McCain has the mentality of the cold war, and his mind cannot grasp the current realities of the World. He’s still trying to fight World War Two.

Obama was right when he said that Iraq kept Iran in check, and our war on Iraq allowed Iran to increase it’s power and influence in the region, something McCain doesn’t get.

Because of the sinking economy, which the Republican party is responsible for, America’s influence on the politics of the world is weakening.

McCains number one goal is to maintain, neo con control over the political and financial structure of this country, to the benefit of a small few and the detriment of the rest of us.

With slight of hand and misdirection he intends to mislead us into voting once again, for those that created this mess.

Gone with the Wind still needs lessons in civics and democracy 101.

It’s not about Nader, it’s about choices and voices rather than this semi-monologue that goes on between these two parties. “Candidates”? Pretty much the same parade of tweedle dee and dumb we’ve been getting for decades.

And yea, those parties and their corporate backers have the power. Which is the problem.

Take a look at the Constitution and come back when you’ve begun to get an understanding of governance. You won’t see anything in there about Democratic or Republican parties, btw.

Archimedes, I think it was, said “give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum and I will move the
earth.”

American Troops are an Archimede’s lever and every bit as powerful in moving our political dialogue.
McCain runs into trouble when he can’t prey on America’s love of war and his being a decorated war hero to gain sympathy.  Here’s a guy that the public, either out of guilt or out of a lust for war, refuses to see through and an opponent who dares not help them do that because he knows he can’t shatter that sacred veneer.

I’d like to think that most Americans are sick of the war mongering and would love to get permission from their leaders to believe it’s ok to look at a war hero as an incompetent, hot-headed, old fool, despite how he may have acted in war.  I wonder what would be the reaction to, in a debate, “John, that was then; this is now.  America needs to stop its imperialistic agenda and start taking care of our problems at home.  We all know why you keep bringing up the troops and this or that war.”

Frank etal - McCain didn’t look at Obama because he hates him - seems Obama successfully thwarted a McCain crusade (for something) while they were in the Senate. (Have they been collecting their Senate pay all this time, by the way, anybody?)

Debates can and are often won on looks and demeanor. Kennedy/Nixon debate was won by Kennedy, according to television viewers, and won by Nixon according to radio listeners.

Nixon had refused face makeup, appearing dark, surly, threatening, mean - all due to his five-o’clock shadow.  Kennedy wore the television makeup, appearing young, fresh, charming and kind - all due to his makeup (and his age.)  And don’t forget Gore’s ‘sigh’ and Bush senior’s glance at his watch.

Back when the race started, it was said by many in Washington who know him that McCain’s personality would be his undoing.  The guy just can’t help himself.

Two points.  First, Georgia should not be allowed to enter NATO.  Russia has her sphere of influence and the US has its.  If one treads on the others, its big trouble unless that’s what one want!  Its bad enough that The Czech Republic and Poland are in NATO, but Russia can live with that, but not Georgia or the Ukraine.

Second, I was disappointed that Obama did not mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed in the war.  I wouldn’t expect McCain to do so——to him their just collateral damage.

Although commentators are saying that McCain was mean and grouchy; or using other similar adjectives to describe McCain’s demeanor during the debate, the most significant phrase that has been missing is:

  John McCain manifested the negative temperament
  that is a dangerous quality for a President during
  these difficult times—globally and domestically. 

Isn’t that the bottom line?  It seems evident that when McCain “doesn’t like” someone, perhaps someone like Putin, Ahmadinajad, Abbas, McCain will have the same demeanor if and when he ever chooses to or must meet with one of them?  Such a temperament does not speak well for a leader under any circumstances.  McCain IS nasty, disrespectful, disdainful, and totally insulting.  In short, he is an embarrassment and I don’t think the American people need to be embarrassed any more than they have been these past 7-3/4 years.  John McCain does not have the temperament to be president of anything—a corporation (a la Fiorina) or a country!

McCain wants to get a new cold war with Russia up and running with the possibility of NATO (US) forces in Georgia and Ukraine.

Obama: “We’ve got to make sure that the military is ready for the next war.”  How could it not be ready with record defense budgets for the last 10 years?  Change we can believe in.  The mendacity of hope.

How did it come to this?  Everything the public wants according to every poll I’ve seen is off the table.  Nothing is going to stop the war machine or corporate control of our lives, public be damned.

I keep thinking about the 60’s nowadays, the time when Viet Nam woke us up to the reality of the modern American Empire. The Ruling Class will ride these times of wars and rumors of wars all the way to the failing banks; a trillion for this and a trillion for that. I had no enthusiasm whatsoever for that “debate” in the media. I couldn’t even watch it, as I knew it would all get rehashed to pulp fiction in a few hours of claptrap punditry. In any case, what holds these two “runners” for me is the star wars futurality of planet earth: where the republicans are the face of the “Evil Empire”, and the O’Bamas are the kinder, gentler “Empire”. The former is the smack down giant with a mean streak wide as a thousand running lights in a monster convoy of death and destruction across the world, the latter, a calm and calculated explanation of why there are no choices here in the good Empire… here is what a Viet Nam veteran friend of mine said years ago was what he learned from his days of jungle combat, ”everyone must submit and everyone must die”. There will be no changes. The slogan of the Empire will still be the one on that dormitory poster from the 70’s; if my memory serves me well, picture this: a tall thin and noble, afro’d black soldier in full well used camo, standing on a white beach, his combat boots sunk in the sand, azure blue surf crashing before his long gaze at the horizon, military helicopters circling around napalm explosions in the background over his well formed muscular shoulders, his handsome face turned out to the sea, an M-16 dangling from its strap in his hand, and there, grasping up his leg, her lovely tear streaked face lifted to him in sad supplication, an exotically beautiful Asian woman, her oriental clothing stained from the reality of the rough trade, and there, under this romantic tableau, the bold letters of the recruitment poster unfurled in red, white, and blue striped flag waving letters: Join the US Army and Fuck the World Over! One could make substitutions on this poster, but would it matter. I think not. Perhaps a Halliburton logo half seen in the sand, or a half burned Pizza Hut menu floating nearby, or a pair of shattered Palin type glasses sticking out to make it all timely. Something to crunch underfoot with those new and improved modern combat boots all our boys and girls, from Alaska to Florida, wear nowadays.

Did anyone notice how McCain parrotted the lie about “Israel being wiped of the map” in reference to Iran. 

He did it twice.

How many times has Iran been threatened directly by Israeli and American attacks in the past months and still is.  Sheer lunacy to threaten other countries given our Nations track record.

FYI:

Checking out “Time” on RSS feeds I found their take on the debate interesting.  Thought they were Conservative?

The cloud that is hanging out there is that 2 trillions of dollars were wasted following policies that McCain supported.  Like the hatchet man at the Packard Motor Co., saving a few dollars unaware the cars aren’t selling.  Thought Obama took the right course, just be himself and let his confidence and perspective win the day. I don’t think anyone knows what to say about the bailout, what do we know about this claim of panic. Incredible amount of cash some of it to be borrowed from the very people we’re bailing.

Leefeller, I’m not sure how you can construe Obama as a hawk unless your definition of ‘hawk’ is a President willing to use the military when needed.

Unless you are a 9/11 conspiracy nutter, you know Al Quaida was behind the 9/11 attacks, and their leadership was based in Afghanistan with their Talibani hosts, as well as in the Pakistani borderlands. Obama’s commitment to finishing them off in response to 9/11 and to mitigate the risk of future attacks is not a hawkish position. It is the only position a non-pacifist President could take.

The shameless pandering to Israel specific and the demonization of Iran was shameful of both candidates.

McCain definitely showed that he is on the way out.  His constant references to the VA hospital funding was laughable as he has consistantly voted against it in the past.  In fact most veterans past and present can’t stand McCain given his “songbird” reputation while he was a POW.

I though the most amusing moment was before the debate watching Lieberman talk…whats with his lower jaw…he looks line a puppet.

Oh yeah he is.

Purple Girl,

“Mac, Take your Pin up ‘ROSIE the Rivet’ Girl and what marbles you have left and GO HOME!”

Love it.

first Mac ain’t the Sharpest TOOL in the Shed, to begin with, Then his arrogance and Temperment Cloud his limited deductive capabilites even farther, then add his most resent Mental Issue- he’s going Senile.
“Old Man Yells At Cloud” Unanimated.
I didn’t think he could get any stiffer then when he shuffled his way out on stage- but once he shoved the stick up his ass, I was proven Wrong. this is the man some People want REPRESENTING US on anything??? He couldn’t even look his Oppenent in theEye across a Podium- he Expects US to buy he can muster some BALLS when they are across the aisle or the negotiating table???
Sen Obama not only remained clam & collected by also had enough faith in US to allow John to dive on to his own Sword- He knew He needn’t do it for him.
I thought for sure one more rebuttle from Sen Obama, just one inch more turn towards Mac, One more time and Mac was going to Implode or Rush Obama. I heard the Ticking of a timebomb every time they panned to Mac- ‘going Going ...’ IMPLOSION!Maybe next Debate-Kinda Like a Presidential ‘Smash Lab’ episode.Nitroglycerine Vs Water.
Mac, Take your Pin up ‘ROSIE the Rivet’ Girl and what marbles you have left and GO HOME!

McCain never looked at Obama for the same reason, he would not talk to any leaders from countries he doesn’t like. He doesn’t want to legitimize them, by acknowledging their voice.

At this point Republican politics is a little like a Christian who gets to heaven and finds out that Christ was really an African American. For many this wouldn’t matter at all, but for some others they would rather be in hell.

Max Shields, September 27 at 6:08 am #

It’s, once again - neocon vs neoliberal, war, intervention, world “leadership” aka domination.

********************************
Max,
Right now you are just static in the airwaves.  The thread is about the debate that happened last night and I don’t think many people give a rat’s posterior that Nader wasn’t there or what he would have said.

Nader’s not going to be the next President.  You need to understand that. You may think it’s not “fair” that he (or Bob Barr) didn’t get a hearing, but it’s time to play in the real world.

The Presidency is a power position—the most powerful position in the World. Men and women fight, kill, murder, even their own spouses, parents, siblings and children to get the power that George Bush will (hopefully) pass on Jan 20, 2009. The fact that our politics isn’t a lot dirtier and deadlier is a testament to the wisdom of our Founding fathers.

20 years ago, the “game” to become President became a lot dirtier and more dangerous with the advent of that evil genius, Lee Atwater (I hope there’s a Hell, just because if there is, he’s roasting in it).  His disciple is, of course, Karl Rove, and all the “win no matter the cost.”

So Nader isn’t in it.  Too bad!  Politics ain’t bean-bag, and it ain’t Marquis of Queensbury. It ain’t fair and all whining about it does is give the meaner, tougher, less-principled party the upper hand.

Time to grow up!  Be glad we don’t live in a country ruled by Mugabe or Chavez or Putin!  And worrying about Nader gives the wanna-be dictators one more edge.

Pandering is what must be done, so pandering is what we get.

Must say I am disappointed in Obama, and his support of war over peace, I must be a silly idealist.  Big bad Russia, attacking little Georgia for no reason at all, let’s reinstate the cold war, it is good for the military complex. 

Sadly it is becoming apparent, we may get some change in domestic happenings, but change on the international front is absent, for they must pander to certain special interests and continue the spreading democracy crap.

McCAin preformed better than I would have suspected during the debate, only because he spent the week promoting a different picture of himself, so I was primed to believed he would be a lot less effective than he was. 

Obama, did okay, except I did not like hearing his hawk like world stance.  Seemed like two hawks, promoting being hawks, the only differences were the directions they would take us.  US Imperialism is here stay.

Both clowns totally void of leadership.

Did you hear them? it went like this: War war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war….for most of the 90 minutes when they wer’e showing total cluelessness about the economy.

It’s, once again - neocon vs neoliberal, war, intervention, world “leadership” aka domination.

When McCain prattles on about how he’s going to clean up Washington, Obama should and must hold him accountable for the Keating 5.

When McCain insists Obama “just doesn’t understand” Barack should point out that just because McCain has held his opinions for a long time, that alone doesn’t make him correct.  The American people will decide who has the better judgment, not to mention temperament to be President
***********************************

I would go even further and even blunter:

“Experience only matters when it leads to good judgment.  On issue after issue John McCain has consistently shown bad judgment, following lock-step with George Bush. John McCain’s experience has NOT led him to make good decisions.”

Obama is by nature a decent, conciliatory individual.  But as Gore and Kerry demonstrated, that alone won’t win the election.  In the remaining 2 debates, he must counter-attack more effectively.

When McCain prattles on about how he’s going to clean up Washington, Obama should and must hold him accountable for the Keating 5.

When McCain insists Obama “just doesn’t understand” Barack should point out that just because McCain has held his opinions for a long time, that alone doesn’t make him correct.  The American people will decide who has the better judgment, not to mention temperament to be President

McCain’s refusal to look at Obama was reprehensible and a revealing window into his arrogant character, another reason why he would be an ineffective, divisive President. At the next debate, Obama should call him on it.  Here’s how. When McCain tries to spread falsehoods about Obama’s tax policy, Obama should look him in the eye and say “that’s not true; you know it’s not true and maybe that’s why you can’t look me in the eye when you say it.”

Once in awhile, against certain opponents, it’s OK to throw an elbow.

Boyarsky

When was the last time you actually thought critically, rather than from a partisan perspective. Some “truth”!

The Dems and the Repubs are empty of fresh thinking. It’s retreaded solutions to deep structure political and economic problems.

I said - WHERE IN THE HELL IS NADER? We would have had not just “calm” but substance.

“kid, you don’t know what you are talking about.”

His condescending manner reminded me of something else.

The 18th century White Patriarchal “Maser” looking down on his women and his “colored” and saying,

“You don’t understand anything.”

But then I’m prejudiced. I still see the golden boy who chose to dump a sick and crippled wife who could be a drag on his beauty and political ambitions.

I still see a “veteran” who used his war experience for personal gain. All the while ignoring the “other” veterans who were dying in the streets, or stinking rat infested VA hospitals.

I still see personal political ambition placed above the call to go into the public and do right by the walking wounded.

And I see a “pay-back” mentality still trying to make the wrongness of war somehow right. That affliction reeks in the old men who still believe we could have “won” in Vietnam.

Now to the petty stuff. McCain sounded like he was speaking through a pool of spittle. And his bluster bordered on comical. Someone who can barely walk fast can hardly run. [Apologies to old folks who suffer from the above mentioned problems.] I’m old. I occasionally have the same problems. But I’m not deluding myself ... or the rest of the country into believing I have the stamina to run the world!

Enter Sarah, who has the stamina but not a lick of intelligence. [Cant wait to see THAT debate.] If I were a republican, I think I would be embarrassed.

One thing I observed that haven’t heard the talking heads on CNN mention much is that Obama turned to his opponent on several occasions and spoke directly to him, as the moderator was encouraging them to do, whereas McCain seemed unwilling to face him one and speak directly to him for most of the debate. 

Was McCain coached to do this to prevent his temper from flaring, or was this an attempt to diminish Obama’s stature by refusing to even directly acknowledge him during the debate? Was it something else ? Perhaps fear of looking Obama in the eye while lying about him? What do you think?

There was nothing at all unusual in McSame’s behavior. He was just acting like a typical republican, in all ways.
Expect more of the same from good ole straight shootin Sarah next thursday.

Ugh indeed.

@dihey

I think, with your Maverick attitude, you would be just another Dennis K. in congress.  I love Dennis’ idealism.  But these people are playing a game. 

What I hope for is with a pro-middle class prez, the power of veto, and a majority in congress, the pendulum can swing in favor of the working class in this country for a little while.  That’s about the most we can expect or hope for.  And that one party doesn’t completely destroy the country while in office.  We’re coming close this administration.

Truth is, if you went to Congress, you’d become one of them if you wanted to get anything at all done for your constituency.  That’s the way it works.  Mr. Smith was a movie. Do you think for one second Jimmy Stewart could’ve stopped this BS?

This debate showed everyone that Barry doesn’t have the stones to do what must be done to fix america. We already knew that Mccain didn’t. But to see Barry not go in fully committed to making Mac look like the bumbling old cold war dinosaur that he is, was disappointing.

How am I supposed to trust Barry to pull out all the stops to get america to another NEW DEAL, when he won’t even go balls to the wall at a debate?

“Debates” are debates, they are positioning contests.  As such both did well but had their weaknesses.

1) John McCain “won” because he didn’t come out looking as he’s looked for the last two weeks, a flip-flopping, shoot-from-the-hip deranged maniac.  He looked thoughtful and mostly in command of his facts, especially the half-dozen or so he made up out of thin air.

2) Barack Obama won because he looked “Presidential”, like he’s fully ready for prime-time.  Foreign affairs are supposed to be John McCain’s “wheelhouse”, his power-alley, yet Obama held his own and nailed him royally on being wrong on Iraq. (Oh, why oh why couldn’t he have said explicitly connected McCain’s experience to his bad judgment—experience ONLY matters if it provides good judgment).  Obama also won by showing that he had command of the big picture as well as the details.

3) McCain lost because he didn’t win Foreign Affairs.  Debates aren’t fair. He had to show conclusively that he was ready and Obama was not. He didn’t so he lost.  McCain also was a total screwup on the financial mess—that was clear. His clean inability to engage Obama, and his inability to hid his active dislike of the man showed how he’s a poor negotiator and unable to control his emotions.

4) Obama lost because he let John McCain dictate much of the tempo and temper of the debate—he did too much counter-punching.  He said “I agree with you” to McCain about 6 times—McCain only said it once that I caught. Obama wasn’t able to get McCain to lose his temper and show what a wild man he is in a crisis.  There were huge, heavy body blows that Obama should have landed that he never even launched, particularly on the financial mess.

Ultimately, I deem it a draw, and benefited both men.  Both reassured their base, and both made a strong case for why the undecideds should vote for them.

On to Thursday…Again the standards are totally unfair.  If Sarah Palin doesn’t look like a complete idiot, and avoids a “Senator, you’re no Jack Kennedy!” moment, she’ll “win”.  Biden has to lay her out flat in a total knock-out but cannot look like a bully or an SOB doing it.  Tough challenge but if Biden takes it seriously he can do it.  Palin’s prep has got to be super-intensive.  Luckily, for her, she’s mean as an angry weasel and lies with impunity and I doubt she’ll panic.  If she does, Biden has to go for the jugular without LOOKING like he’s going for the jugular.  Like I said, debates ain’t fair.  The rules for each debater can be wildly different and the standards of winning for each vary widely.

The Independent Voters On FOX Said Obama Won - That’s It, He Won.
by This Old Hippie Because Sometimes They Simply Can’t Hide The Truth.

So Sayeth FOX - So Believeth the Majority of American Voters
You know… the ones that never come to our blogs, never read us, nor watch us, nor listen to us.  And FOX could not hide, or misconstrue, their independent voters’ reactions to this first debate.  It doesn’t matter what any of the ‘experts,’ or talking-heads, liberal or conservative, say about it - FOX was forced to openly admit that - - -

“Obama won the debate.”  Therefore the FOX-Sheeple believe it, and they are, currently, sadly, insanely, unfathomably, and in unreal reality… the majority of the voters in this nation.

So - There may be some hope yet?

“It really is true what they say…
Those who do not study the past, get an exciting opportunity to repeat it.”

You have got to watch this, because Jon & Staff really did great on this one.  Enjoy…

I keep hearing how Obama should have attacked more.  I get it, and it would have been great fun.  But the only thing it would have done was make hard-core, left partisans happy.  And it probably would have carried serious negatives for Obama among the groups that won’t automatically vote for him.  Had he taken every opportunity to stick McCain in the ribs, he’d have been labeled “the angry black man” beating up on grandpa.

The real time reaction indicators showed independents reacting positively to Obama; that’s what’s important for the Obama campaign.  He came off as calm, cool, collected and presidential.  Furthermore, he doesn’t need to destroy McCain because McCain is plenty capable of the doing that himself.  He also doesn’t need to be the fact checker: 1 because it’s the campaign’s job and 2 because it would make him look elitist.

Finally, i would like to play a game of poker with John McCain…i have a feeling that winning one of those houses off of him would be like taking candy from a baby, as his tell is the most obvious thing i’ve ever seen.  He lies like a teenager.

In general I think Obama did well and was a bit to nice to McCain. However, Obama’s cool level headed presentation leads me to believe that his diplomatic skills are superior to McCain and that is needed in this new world after BuchCo.

McCain is really just another cog in the war wagon that has brought us to this disastrous position both nationally and globally. It is precisely because of his hawkish mannerism that I do not like McCain. His lies out way his truths. Swearing with heart felt sincerity to care for veterans, all the while, voting against funding veteran care.

The “debate” of last night has clearly demonstrated that both candidates are addicted to the most primitive variant of American Imperialism (AI)with their analysis of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Georgia/Russia. Both want to scare me into voting for one of them. Obama, for crying out loud, wants to set up (“strengthen” which always means more arms!) Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland against Russia. Shades of Britain’s promises to Poland in 1939 which triggered WW2! McCain wants to “win in Iraq” as if the conflict there is a traditional war. This time around both ignored that Georgia was the aggressor in South Ossetia and rewarded Shaaskavili with a billion dollars for his stupidity. Both are willing to bomb Iran as a last resort (“everything is on the table, remember?). Both ignored the fact that most of our oil nowadays comes from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela yet they treat these countries as if they are hydrocarbon lepers. Indeed, Lehrer, the sappiest of all moderators, who “selected the questions himself”, totally ignored Latin America and that with a swiftly growing Latino population of our country!!! The only difference between the candidates is that McCain is addicted to AI with a minimum of bread and butter while Obama is addicted to AI with a promise of some more bread and butter which, given the immense shortfall staring him into the eyes, is no more than a promise. Their incredible bombast would have made sense at the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Today it is the dangerous nonsense of a dying dinosaur.
And for Cyrena: Obama said that we should not have started the war in Iraq. Fair enough but when he became a US Senator he voted several times for the continuation of the war by giving GWB more funds to do just that. According to a US Supreme Court ruling, every one of his “yes” votes was the equivalent of an unequivocal congressional declaration of war on Iraq, stronger than the 2002 declaration of the Senate/House on Iraq for which Obama criticized Hillary Clinton. How complicated is that? Or is that known as hypocrisy?

Metros…since you can’t even spell, (derserves?) your opinion doesn’t count for a whole lot.

And…the “biggest issue on EARTH????”

A few billion others of the planet’s inhabitants don’t know and couldn’t care less about the economic meltdown or the trillion dollar grab-fest in the USA. They already didn’t have anything, and how can one lose nothin’ from nothin’? So, where were you when this began years ago? Probably voting for Dick Bush.

Obviously the Criminal Cabal doesn’t much care if they make you sick. Haven’t they made that pretty clear for the past 8 years, AT LEAST?

That said, the economic meltdown isn’t new news, and Obama has addressed it multiple times. Guess you weren’t paying any attention. And McCain has been right smack dab in the center of the CAUSATION of the meltdown for decades. Did you REALLY expect him to address it? The Keating Five Scandal that he was at the center of? All of the deregulation that allowed this meltdown in the first place was accomplished thanks to McCain and his best partner in crime, Phil Graham. Did you REALLY think he was gonna talk about that? Fat chance.

Besides metros, that wasn’t even the long ago planned on topic of the debate. It was supposed to be on foreign policy, and if you knew how to connect the dots, you would have gotten far more insight on your concern about the economic meltdown, and the trillion dollar grab fest.

Foreign policy = a war of choice (for NO reason other than to enrich the Bush Cheney Corps) in its 6th year that is costing us $ONE BILLION A MONTH$.  Surely you can figure out how that might be a contributing factor to the economic meltdown.

McCain wants to continue it forever, and Obama says we should never have started it. How complicated is that?