Top Leaderboard, Site wide
July 29, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates






The Sixth Extinction
War of the Whales


Truthdig Bazaar
Kazan on Directing

Kazan on Directing

By Elia Kazan
$19.80

more items

 
Report

A Calm Obama Weathers a Storm of Sarcasm

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Sep 26, 2008
AP photo / Chip Somodevilla, pool

Barack Obama and John McCain address a question during the first presidential debate Friday at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. Jim Lehrer of PBS moderates from the center.

By Bill Boyarsky

Sen. John McCain tried to roll over Barack Obama with condescending sarcasm in their first debate but in the end the Democratic presidential nominee stood up to him in a calm, presidential manner. 

Was he too calm? Did he pull his punches in an effort to look presidential? Not really. The viewers got a clear choice: a reasoned and reasonable Obama versus an old-fashioned Cold Warrior who would keep us in Iraq endlessly and extend the boundaries we must defend to Georgia and Ukraine.

I was disappointed at the beginning. Moderator Jim Lehrer tried to force these prospective presidents to open up and tell the country what they would do to solve the nation’s worst financial crisis since the 1930s.

McCain mumbled that he would vote for the rescue bill being written in Congress. “Sure,” he said. Obama said he wanted to see the details. There should have been more. Will the taxpayers get an equity share of companies receiving aid? How will mortgage holders facing foreclosure be protected? These and other questions have been well debated in recent days, and there is enough information around for both men to have said more.

Obama did not hammer McCain for his long support of deregulation. Nor did Obama plaster McCain with the Bush label, as he did so well in Denver when he accepted the Democratic nomination. No doubt Obama’s supporters wanted him to slam McCain on the issue and were disappointed that he did not. But his reasonable approach worked when the two candidates got to the announced subject of the debate at the University of Mississippi, national security and foreign affairs.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
McCain emerged as a die-hard advocate of the neocon philosophy that mired the United States in a senseless war in Iraq, insisting that the nation will attain its goal of coming “home with victory and honor.” It was as if he did not know that thousands of American troops had died in a war that was started under false pretenses.

He voiced the neocon line of going it alone—or at least not going with any other nation unless it unconditionally supported the United States.

He attacked Obama for wanting to kill Osama bin Laden if we found him hiding within Pakistan’s boundaries. McCain said he would not make such a statement. He spoke warmly of the deposed president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, saying he had saved “a failing state.”

McCain’s game plan was clear. He tried to treat Obama as a rookie or even a schoolboy. His attacks were blunt and humorless. When the camera caught him listening to Obama’s replies, he had sort of a smirk, as if he were all-knowing. His attitude toward Obama was something like, “Kid, you don’t know what you are talking about.”

McCain pandered like mad, especially to supporters of Israel. Obama had said he would talk to the president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in conjunction with other countries and after his aides had settled on conditions with lower-level Iranian officials. McCain said Obama wanted to “sit across the table with someone who called Israel a stinking corpse.”

Obama replied in a deliberate, thoughtful manner. He noted that the Bush administration was now working with Russia and European allies to stop a nuclear Iran. The United States, he said, “cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran.” But he added that the “notion of by not talking to people you are punishing them doesn’t work.”

The McCain camp, researching past debates, obviously came to the conclusion that aggression wins. John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan were aggressive when they won their debates, but their attacks were tempered by their charm.

McCain had no charm Friday night. He was snide. He was mean. He was all attack, and all over the lot. It is easy to see that his demeanor could have put off a lot of people.

Obama was calm but passionate in the way he stood his ground. He answered McCain but didn’t sink to his level. He looked like a man who could be president, which undoubtedly was his goal when the debate began.


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, October 4, 2008 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

Time for something else… I’m posting this in several forums. And will make updates from time to time as new information comes my way.

So McCain is going for character assassination of Obama!  Well then, the gloves are off.  This is the season of the witch!  The witch shall go ahunting!  Let’s see, how about starting with dickhead McCain’s first wife!  And how he left her after she had a disfiguring car accident for another cutsie chick, Cindy.  That’s loyalty for ya.  It’s one thing to fall out of love and divorce, but for guys who want to be politicians, messing around is deadly.

Two years younger than Ralph Nader, on his own health, check out this website:
http://therealmccain.com/doctors/

Joe Klein-Time magazine Sept. 17, 2008 tells us McCain’s claims skirt facts and his lies have ranged from the annoying to the sleazy, and the problem is in both degree and kind. His campaign has been a ceaseless assault on his opponent’s character and policies, featuring a consistent—and witting—disdain for the truth.  So we will publish these lies every day in every place possible. Even the New York Times editorial board is calling John McCain a liar.

Paraphrasing Klein’s words, John McCain raises serious questions about whether he has the character to lead the nation. He defaces his beloved military code of honor. He is running a dirty campaign.

Jon Stewart called him a shameless panderer. What could that mean?  He embraces all the things he used to condemn.  Bush being one of them, I saw that hug, then he turns around and is now again bashing Bush.  What the f**k??  Check out:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TDS-Reformed-Maverick-090508.mov

By way of providing background, the article reprised the story of the Keating Five scandal that cost three Senators their jobs and nearly ended John McCain’s career. According to the Times, during McCain’s years in the House of Representatives, he became friendly with Charles Keating, Chairman of Lincoln Savings & Loan.

Vote Obama/Biden if you want change in the White House.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 30, 2008 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

By Shenonymous, September 30 at 4:51 pm #

It’s hard to begin discussing economics when most of these numbers really don’t mean much. GDP has nothing to do with your life or mine. It was never intended to.

As far as unemployment numbers - falacious little critters they stop counting once your off unemployment compensation - hit some of its lowest marks during the Bush II years.

Most of Clinton’s “good times” was on the back of the DotCom bubble that burst along with the Enron fiasco that started in those glorious days you are recounting.

Clinton brought in NAFTA and gutted saftey nets for the poor (and we know how that turned out). In fact much of the financial disaster we see today has its seeds in the Clinton admin and the Republican Congress. Check out Robert Rubin and Larry Summers - free market die-hards and Clinton advisors (Treasury Secretaries!). They’re pushing Obama and this bailout bill which they would have passed as is when Paulson first offered it up!!

No, Shenonymous, Clinton with all his smooth talk, ran Reagan part II. He was no progressive and expanded on the premises of corporate globalization (which is predatory). He did do a much better job of running FEMA. And, yea, between him and the Rupublican Congress they did reduce the deficit. But the systemic and structural problems with the American economy are much deeper than a deficit or even our debt.

Frankly, I don’t think Presidents really have much to do with the economy during their years in office. They can sign in bills and put in place time-bombs which will go off in the future once they leave or they may be the beneficiary of what economists call a postive cycle.

To understand all this we’d have to probe free market capitalism and boom and bust markets; none of which a president has much to do with.

But it is curious that Obama critized Clinton’s administration as unimaginative, that you have to go back to Reagan to find some “good” ideas. Political talk?

Swinging between Parties and Presidents is not going to fix what’s wrong. The parties have been saying the same thing for decades.

A trend analysis provides a much better picture of the American economy and it has been on a downward spiral by all indicators since the mid-60s. It is an unsustainable economic system because its based on endless growth through the use of finite resources for endless consumption. And what did Clinton have to say about that? And Obama?

Try - we need to grow our way to prosperity!! That’s the answer they all give - Dem and Repubs. Pretty imaginative, huh.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 30, 2008 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment

President Clinton left the lowest unemployment rate in 30 years. Inflation declined to the lowest levels since the Kennedy Administration, and remained moderate in 2000 despite the run-up in energy prices. Productivity growth averaged 3.0 percent over previous five years - nearly double its average rate over 20 years before that. Real wages began finally to rise across the economic spectrum.
  The simplest and most obvious way in which the fiscal landscape was revolutionized is the stunning change in the numbers:  In FY1992 - the year before the Clinton Administration took office - the unified deficit of the Federal government ran a record $290 billion, or 4.7 percent of GDP. By contrast, in FY2000 - the fiscal year just completed - the Federal government set a different and more enviable record, with a surplus of $237 billion, or 2.4 percent of GDP.
  In 1992, the debt held by the public was nearly 50 percent as large as the GDP, and projected to increase to roughly 65 percent of GDP by the end of FY2000. In fact, the debt now is only 35 percent as large as the GDP, and is projected on prudent assumptions to be eliminated by 2012 - even taking account of the President’s spending and tax-cut proposals.
  This turnaround in the numbers benefited in real dollars to individual Americans: The net interest payments of the Federal government in FY2000 alone were $125 billion lower than projected in early 1993. That amounts to more than $1700 for every American family.
  Fiscal consolidation helped reduce mortgage interest costs: a typical American family with a mortgage of $100,000 would have expected to save about $2,000 annually in mortgage costs because of the new fiscal discipline. Low mortgage rates in turn helped to make housing more affordable; the homeownership rate increased from 64.2 percent in 1992 to 67.7 percent in the third quarter of 2000.
  The swing in the Federal budget from deficit to surplus resulted in nearly a doubling of the net national saving rate, making more funds available for private investment. (And incidentally, the improvement in the Federal budget deficit – in 2000 a surplus - accounted for all of the improvement in national saving.) Surging investment, especially in equipment incorporating the latest advances in technology, contributed to a pickup in workers’ productivity growth - and ultimately, in their wages.
  A second respect in which the fiscal landscape was transformed had more to do with the institutions of the budget process than with the performance of the budget itself.
  Until the previous couple of years, the political debate about the budget focused on allocating unified surpluses; or, to be more precise about it - reducing unified deficits. A few insightful observers understood that balancing the unified budget should not be the ultimate goal, but believed that the more ambitious objective of balancing the on-budget account was so far out of reach that highlighting it as a potential objective might actually undermine the collective resolve rather than solidify it.
  But in the summer of 1999, buoyed by the progress of the preceding six years, Clinton was able to shift the terms of the political conversation by putting forward a plan for allocating the projected on-budget surpluses over the succeeding ten years, and for setting aside all of the off-budget surpluses - the Social Security surpluses - for debt reduction.
  The practical implication of that change was that the budgetary debate focused on how best to use $1.9 trillion in projected on-budget surpluses rather than $4.2 trillion in unified surpluses. The beneficial implications for national saving and the performance of the macroeconomy was hardly overstated.
  In the last eight years the Republican policies not only frittered that surplus away but increased the debt by $9.8 trillion.
  Sorry jackpine savage you are wrong. The Reagan and Bush have been the worst presidents in the history of this country.

Report this

By cyrena, September 30, 2008 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

Max Shields writes:

“Many of us strongly disagree and are looking for alternatives like McKinney and Nader to address the pressing American issues.”

~~~~~~

But, they aren’t (alternatives) and the can’t. (address the pressing American issues). Nader has been trying for the last 20 years, (every 4) and hasn’t been able to do diddly squat..not even to follow through with his own ideas, (many of them good) because he won’t bother to get into politics. (except every 4 years to run for president).

Cynthia could have done more as a Congresswoman, if she just wasn’t so loosely wrapped in the head, and emotionally undisciplined. Whacking Capitol Hill Police Officers with a cell phone isn’t cool, even if he deserved it. We’ve already got one hothead in the White House, and you see where that got us. McKinny is more intelligent than Puppet Bush, but she still couldn’t run an Administration. Her own Congressional District constituents FIRED her. She needs to cool out, and take some lessons. Then maybe she can run next time. That is IF there IS a ‘next time’ and I’m seriously beginning to doubt that.

Max, why don’t you drop the directional mode. It hasn’t served your interests at all, and it’s totally incompatible with where you’re trying to ‘cage’ Obama. He can’t be caged, and he can’t be labeled in your directional hierarchies. So give it up. Ask your special education team if there’s some why for you to learn a more Holistic approach. You could spend the rest of your life trying to fit Barack Obama into one of your ‘directions’ and it ain’t never gonna happen. You’re just too slow.

And btw, there really AREN’T that ‘many’ of you. By the time Nader finally made it to my section of the coast on Sunday, the audience barely reached 40 people, and they had to count the little ones twice to get to that.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, September 30 at 5:22 pm #


I pretty much agree with all your points but have one issue.

I’m less sure that a generation learning the lessons that you and I have learned will in fact be able to “split” the Dem party. If that was so, it would have happened long ago.

I do, however, agree that the system is [dysfunctional], and that it will take a movement, one stalled by progressive-washing Democrats that provide the illusion of a “workers” party, but are in reality enable corporate power.

This is why, the Dems are even more problematic than the Repubs. The latter are not standing directly in the way of a strong progressive movement - the Dems are as is the illusionary faux progressive Obama. These ARE the obsticles.

The “Michael Moores” have sucked the progressive movement of it’s oxygen. Not entirely, I do think that there is a re-alignment which may just capture the imagination of a true progressive movement.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 30, 2008 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

Damn, I am tired of all this shit, I am going to vote for Alfred E Newman, Oh, that’s right he supposedly won last time.

Report this

By Folktruther, September 30, 2008 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

I am willing to concede that Obama is extremely talented politically.  Hell, he got 82 thousand people, many of them young, to listen to his acceptance speech.  And he has mobilized and motivated many young people.  And apparently his talks arouse people, although not people like me.

But for whose benefit?  Obama is to the right of Clinton on the issues, largely because the Elite political consensus has gone to the right historicaly.  In so far as he is procipled, they are socially conservative principles.  He has shown no populist leanings at all, and HAS shown a bent toward militarism and spying on the American population.

The electoral system is broke and obsolete.  When one mobilizes people progressively and effectively, it is not to the voting booth, but to the streets and against power.  Obama is FOR American power, not only to get eleted, but he believes in it.  After all he made it, why can’t everyone else.

But I’ve thought of a third reason for voting for him.  If he is elected and goes to right, as he has so far, the young may become more sophisticated in being sold out, and pay closer attention to what their leaders are saying and doing, and who is financing and supporting them.  This might offer an oppurtunity to split the Dem party and form a real opposition party.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 30, 2008 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, September 30 at 11:18 am #
“What I’m saying is that Obama appears to be one of the most talented political organizers ever to come down the pike The organization and mobilization of millions of people against the abuse of power is precisely his greatest accomplishment to date. I’m just trying to help. Hell, I’m trying to mobilize you!”

Tony,

I think this is truly an exaggeration. No doubt people are fed up with Bush and that contributes much to the so-called mobilization. Secondly, using the internet to collect money is neither innovative (at this time) nor is it particularly “mobilizing”.

I’ll grant you that he has become (and even Sarah Palin has shown some capacity for) pulling in a crowd, and he has an oratory quality that is appealing in such settings. But I would not confuse that with any of the points you seem to be making.

I realize the change you’d like to see (at least as I’ve seen it expressed here) is really in line with what the Dems have offered for decades and Obama pretty much offers the same.

While he certainly is by far the more articulate candidate, that’s not saying a whole lot. Again, his foreign policy has shades of right of McCain. That you think or believe he’ll be different seems to be out of sync with say John Kennedy who did the same during his campaign (to the right of Nixon) and than stayed there for the 3 years he was in office.

Today we have an even stronger corporate power elite that owns the entire political system - McCain and Obama which makes moving away for their stated policies far less likely.

So, it seems you are first a partisan who is attracted to the more superficial talents of the Dem candidate. Since I think you are fine with much of what he has stated - healthcare, foreign policy, criminal system, free trade, nuke power, etc., you may feel that’s “real” change.

Many of us strongly disagree and are looking for alternatives like McKinney and Nader to address the pressing American issues.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

What I’m saying is that Obama appears to be one of the most talented political organizers ever to come down the pike The organization and mobilization of millions of people against the abuse of power is precisely his greatest accomplishment to date. I’m just trying to help. Hell, I’m trying to mobilize you!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 30, 2008 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

Re Folktruther.

How one votes is far less important than mobilizing the population against power.
——————————————————————————
In my view, the Obama has precisely succeeded in mobilizing the population, not against “power”, but against those who have been abusing power. Millions of new Democrats, especially young ones, have been registered to vote. THAT’S mobilizing the population. You know what the population does when it has been mobilized? It mobilizes down to the voting booth and votes.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 30, 2008 at 11:58 am Link to this comment

Folktruther,

I believe otherwise. Obama will NOT continue Bush policies; McCain obviously will. There will be as significant a change in the direction of the country under Obama as compared with Bush as there was under FDR as compared with Harding-Coolidge-Hoover. You will also see a foreign policy which does not eschew military force but which will be primarily based on diplomacy aimed at conflict resolution, not on military force and belligerence. This Bush-McCain idea of not talking to people unless they already agree with you is too brain-dead for even Henry Kissinger to support. We will see something very different with Obama in office. I guess you can’t see this, but I can and I think most other people can. We will just have to see who is right over the next four years.

Report this

By Folktruther, September 30, 2008 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher-Among the thousands and thousands of good reasons not to vote for either of the Gop-Dem coalition, there are two good progressive reasons for voting for Abaden (Obama-Biden.)

1.  The Gop candidates are genuinely unfitted to occupy the White House.  McCain is an unstable militrist and Palen is clueless right winger, totally ignorant of foreign affairs.  She would be president if McCain dropped off the twig.  This would not be good.  Although they would work around them both, this conceivably disastrous as China rises to leading power.

2. Obama in the White House would genuinely go some way to legitimating minorites holding responsible positions, softening the traditional racism of the US.  The disadvantage is that it would put a black face on US military imperialism, such as occurs with Rice or with Powell lying to the UN to get the US into Iraq.

Since both candidates are going to continue Bush policies, it would depend on how much you value these progressive advantages to determine how one votes.  How one votes is far less important than mobilizing the population against power.

Report this

By troublesum, September 30, 2008 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

This is the culmination of MLK’s dream?
Goldman Sachs campaign contributions
    Obama:  $583,000
    McCain: $187,000
Total contributions from major corporations
    Obama:  $25,000,000.
    McCain: $22,000,000.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 30, 2008 at 7:43 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, September 29 at 8:20 am

Anti-imperialism and anti-racism are the essence of my political agenda and always have been. I regard the coming Obama victory as a triumph of the Civil Rights Movement and the culmination of Martin Luther King’s dream. You don’t seem to care about that. So I’m a racist?

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 30, 2008 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

Heath care

Right on,

“This system is a bureaucratic nightmare, wasting $350 billion—close to a third of all health care spending on things that have nothing to do with health care—overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments, huge profits and exorbitant executive pay.”

I have two plans plus the VA and still I have out of pocket expenses.  I find the VA the most effective of them all and the best to work with. My other two health plans keep sending me mail telling me what they will not cover.

Every time I go to the doctor they have to figure out which plan is my primary, secondary then the billing cycle can last for years.  What a bunch of crap.

Report this

By troublesum, September 30, 2008 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

If this country doesn’t start affirming life instead of destroying it we will not survive, life on this planet will not survive.  That’s why we like Nader and McKinney as well.  Someone here said it right - the debate last week was all about war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war
Enough.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 30, 2008 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

Outraged,

Great selection of issues, it would be nice if Obama would even address one or two of them.  After looking at them again, I like all of them. 

If during a real debate, someone brought those real issues out like Gravel did during the first debate, when he called out the exorbitant power the Military complex welds, the reaction would be the same on Obama, the deer in the headlight look.

When I think about it Rus is right, real issues are ignored, except according to Rus, they are my issues.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 30, 2008 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

Re: Max Shields

Thanks Max, that’s the link I was looking for… you must be “simple-minded” like troublesum and I.  But I have a question… Do you have a magic wand too or do you “go it alone”....

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 30, 2008 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Some other positions you might be interested in which are different from Obama’s.

* Adopt a carbon pollution tax
* Adopt a Wall Street securities speculation tax
* Adopt single payer national health insurance
* Adopt the National Initiative
* Aggressive crackdown on corporate crime and corporate welfare
* Cut the huge, bloated, wasteful military budget
* Defend, Restore and Strengthen the Civil Justice System
* Impeach Bush/Cheney
* No to nuclear power, solar energy first
* Open up the Presidential debates
* Put an end to ballot access obstructionism
* Repeal the Taft-Hartley anti-union law
* Reverse U.S. policy in the Middle East
* Work to end corporate personhood

http://www.votenader.org/issues/

Report this

By Max Shields, September 30, 2008 at 6:20 am Link to this comment

Ralph Nader’s health care plan is simply single payer. There are bills in Congress which address it (HR 676) which address it. But for more specifics from Nader:
http://www.votenader.org/issues/social/healthcare/#19935

Health care plans take on great complexity when privatized insurance is injected, as is Obama’s plan. Single payer greaterly simplies health care payment and delivery - cradle to grave.

Yes, cyrena, it is not “free”. Instead of paying trillion for military expenditures and exploding financial markets, we prioritize human welfare. Health care is a natural monopoly, and monopolies are best managed for the public good when they are de-privatized and put into public oversight.

Obama doesn’t take us there, and as long as large protions of the system are in the hands of private insurance companies it never will.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 30, 2008 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Here it is

Single Payer
Nader/Gonzalez favors a Canadian-style, private delivery, free choice of hospital and doctor, public health insurance system.

Right now, the United States spends $7,129 per capita on health care—more than twice as much per capita as the rest of the industrialized world.

And yet, the United States performs poorly in comparison on major health indicators such as life expectancy and infant mortality

While other industrialized nations like Canada and Sweden provide comprehensive coverage to their entire populations, the United States leaves 47 million completely uninsured and tens of millions more inadequately covered.

According to an Institute of Medicine report, 18,000 Americans die each year because they cannot afford health care.

And inability to pay for medical bills is the leading cause of bankruptcies – they currently contribute to about half the bankruptcies in the United States.

In our current system, there are thousands of different payers of health care fees.

This system is a bureaucratic nightmare, wasting $350 billion—close to a third of all health care spending on things that have nothing to do with health care—overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments, huge profits and exorbitant executive pay.

In addition, there is over $200 billion in computerized billing fraud and abuse.

Nader/Gonzalez support a single payer system that would save the $350 billion and apply those savings to comprehensively cover everyone without paying more than we already do.

All Americans would be covered for all medically necessary services.

Patients would have free choice of doctor and hospital.

Costs would also be controlled in part by the single payer negotiating fees and making bulk purchases.”


Nader’s site also carries this link, of course these must be simple minded people too, according to the perspective you’ve laid it out.
http://www.healthcare-now.org/index.html

Report this

By jackpine savage, September 30, 2008 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

I don’t remember that, Rus, and i was serious…so let ‘er rip. Though i still want phrases like “national security” defined. Furthermore, the last two presidents have been two of the worst in our history, so i’d prefer if you not defer to their authority.

Report this

By cyrena, September 30, 2008 at 12:15 am Link to this comment

Sorry Outraged, I can’t find Ralph’s plan. Looks like I’m gonna either have to wait on you and troublesum to get your magic wands repaired, or resign myself the reality of Obama’s hyper-pragmatism. It’s just as well, I don’t believe in fairy tales anyway. It just postpones the inevitable. Can you tell?

You guys can smoke all of the fairy dust you want, but reality still comes calling. There are no instantaneous fixes to the disaster that ignorant people have allowed over these past decades. The system has been f—-ed up for years, and now all of a sudden, Obama isn’t coming up with the ‘simple’ plan that you and troublesum have long ago figured out, thanks to Nader, who can’t get elected if his (or your) lives depended on it. I don’t know why we didn’t ask you all to take care of this for us long ago.

“Ignorance is the most violent element of society.”

~Emma Goldman

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 11:11 pm Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Your comment: “NOTHING IS FREE! I don’t know why you don’t get that.

What makes you think I don’t get that.  Are you just making that up to fit your reality.  While it’s easy to understand that “nothing is free”, it is just as easy to understand that some things cost more than others, and herein lies the difference between ALL universal health care plans and single-payer. In addition, a single-payer plan would cover everyone.

Your comment: “You and troublesum have these magic wands that you think you can use to make anything happen. So, why the hell DON’T you? Where’s YOUR plan Outraged? Where is Nader’s plan? I’m still waiting.”

Actually, you either read one of the other posts too quickly and missed it, or you simply didn’t read them AT ALL.  It’s already there, go back and look.

Re: troublesum

Could I borrow your magic wand, mine appears to be broken…?  Must of been those gremlins that come in here at night, they always break something.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

My comment: “While it is obvious this hampers YOUR endorsement of Obama, your assertion HAS NO MERIT.  Really…. what makes YOU feel you have the RIGHT, to make this proclamation, and upon WHAT do you base it…?!

Make your flippin argument using the rules you endorse.”

THIS was my challenge to you.  I never claimed Kant, Aristotle or Locke were always RIGHT.  My premise was that your assertion,  “If you can’t make the argument yourself, you can’t make the argument.  Citations are good for facts, or amusing quotes like”

By saying this… you are saying facts and quotes mean nothing and NO ONE can use them anyway, SINCE according to YOU, “If you can’t make the argument yourself, you can’t make the argument”.

I say…people have a right to USE anything at their disposal, but you are claiming they don’t.  So I gave the example, of using someone else’s argument that I CAN use, if I so choose.  You have no claim to dictate otherwise.  So again:

“Make your flippin argument using the rules you endorse.”  WHICH PROVES YOUR STATEMENT, “”If you can’t make the argument yourself, you can’t make the argument.”

Report this

By Folktruther, September 29, 2008 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Outraged, Troblesum—Could I ask why Nader rather than McKinney?

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Outrageous:

Then MAKE Kant’s argument, in your own words and say “this is Kan’ts logic”.  Don’t cite him as “an authority”.  Just because Kant said it doesn’t make it true.  Aristotle said a stone 100x heavier than another stone must fall 100x faster.  He argued it brilliantly, but he was WRONG!

“Authority” is no substitute for facts and logic. It can ONLY be a short-hand if both parties know it, and agree with it: like “Einstein’s relativity shows us that time appears to slow down as we approach the speed of light”  All in the discussion are familiar with it and accept it…UNLESS THEY ARE SPECIFICALLY CHALLENGING IT!

Kant, Locke and Aristotle were all brilliant.  But that does not mean they were inherently right.  I don’t accept “Authority” as meaningful.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 7:50 pm Link to this comment

Rus,

Sorry Rus, I am not your shrink.  My talking computer never tells me what I want to hear either, so there you have it, my issues are like hanging epiphanies, never to be seen again, lost forever in web land.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Re: ITW

Your comment: “If you can’t make the argument yourself, then you haven’t made the argument.”

>> you go on to say,

“If you can’t make the argument yourself, you can’t make the argument.  Citations are good for facts, or amusing quotes like”

>> I’m curious, as to what are claiming here?  It seems you are talking in circles.  What is your reasoning or premise which claims to DECIDE that if someone “can’t make the argument themselves, then they haven’t made the argument”.  Who are you to DECIDE this?  Are YOU asserting that if someone uses say… Locke, Kant or Aristole THEY CAN’T MAKE THAT ARGUMENT…?

The hell they can’t. Issuing orders is a dictatorial philosophy.  EVERYONE has the RIGHT to use the arguments, facts or knowledge at their disposal.

While it is obvious this hampers YOUR endorsement of Obama, your assertion HAS NO MERIT.  Really…. what makes YOU feel you have the RIGHT, to make this proclamation, and upon WHAT do you base it…?!

Make your flippin argument using the rules you endorse.

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

cyrena dear, unless you’ve been out of town for the last week or so you may have noticed that congress has been throwing trillions of dollars around here and there on things like bailouts for billionaires and about another trillion for defense.  Nobody stops to ask where it is coming from.  What many, many people have been suggesting is that instead of spending all that money for death and destruction we should start doing something for life.  The reason why most other western democracies have health care and many other benefits for their citizens is because they haven’t been sucked into the culture of death which defines us here in the US.  They don’t spend billions on a military machine designed to destroy the world. 
Single payer has been shown again and again to be more cost effective that what we have now.  The reason we don’t have it is because people like Obama have been bought by the corporate culture which controls every aspect of our lives here in the culture of death.
Our economy is based on debt and speculation - bubbles as they are called.  Someone said that the dollar is the only currency now backed by home mortgages and bad ones at that.
Maybe if we started thinking in terms of life enhancement istead of death and destruction our economy would improve as well.  Obama should forget about getting ready for the next war and think about doing something for LIFE.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Rus,

Well, I couldn’t say I thought so!

Maybe you could tell me what my opinions and arguments on those ignored issues are then maybe state your opinions or arguments on my ignored issues?  Discussion usually goes something like that. Actually would like to see what you come up with, since it is your point not mine.

Report this

By cyrena, September 29, 2008 at 6:57 pm Link to this comment

Actually troublesum, it appears to be that YOU are one that is ‘quite simple’. Very dense, but still simple. Tell us what the federal employees have in the way of heath care, and how it’s paid for, keeping the word, ‘employee’ in mind. How will you ‘quite simply’ incorporate all citizens, (including ones that have no jobs, incomes, or other means of contributing to their own health care) into such a system? Should we use a model like the Veterans Administration? (that crashed shortly after Regan). Or should we use a model like the County Hospital in LA (formerly Martin Luther King Hospital) that also crashed last year? In fact, it was SHUT DOWN, because there were no funds to sustain it, and make the payrolls. It leaves the entire community (of mostly poverty stricken citizens) without ANY health care facility. The same has happened to the VA…SYSTEM WIDE. Is that how we’ll just ‘quite simply’ provide this ‘single payer’ coverage?

Do you even know what SINGLE PAYER is? Do you have any idea where the SINGLE PAYER gets the money to do the SINGLE PAY? Do you suppose that they just send a volunteer worker out every day to pluck money off of trees? How was your girlfriend Hillary gonna manage the health care problem? Let me answer that for you. The SAME way that Obama has come up with, but she would have used the insurance companies even more, by making it mandatory for every person to buy it, whether they could afford it or not.

You like to use Western European countries as examples of how Obama should administer to the needs of the US population. Would you be willing to give us some SPECIFIC examples of WHICH European countries you have in mind? Let me help you there as well. France has an excellent health care system. Do you think THEY just pluck money off of trees to pay for it? How many people does France have troublesum? How many people does the US have troublesum? Why do consistently compare other countries that are each the size (or smaller) of one state in the US with – well, THE US?

Tell us more about ‘most’ Western European countries and how they educate their citizens for free, ‘if they *qualify*”. How does one ‘qualify’? Who decides? And then, when they ‘qualify’ who pays for the expenses involved in operating an educational institution. How to the teachers get paid? How do the janitors get paid? Do the schools have running water, and heat in the winter time? Who pays for all of that?

Let me help you again Troublesum, the CITIZENS pay for it, and they pay for it via their taxes. Now find a way to do the same thing in the 50 states here, and we’ll make YOU the president. Then George won’t have to worry about being recorded as the dumbest president in US history.

Outraged,

Obama isn’t ATTEMPTING to come up with anything at this point. He already did, even before he began his run for President. In fact, it was the FIRST thing he did, just before announcing his candidacy. He arranged a for a conference/workshop of professionals from the health care industry AND the insurance industry, and probably the phamies as well. (I’d have to go back and look at the roster and the agenda). He also had experts from the current system, and probably some medical supply people too. They did a workup for him, examining the stuff from all angels, and included all of the consequences of each.

FROM THAT, he came up with what he came up with, and never claimed to be anything other than what it was: The best that could realistically be provided within a realistic budget, because NOTHING IS FREE! I don’t know why you don’t get that.

You and troublesum have these magic wands that you think you can use to make anything happen. So, why the hell DON’T you? Where’s YOUR plan Outraged? Where is Nader’s plan? I’m still waiting.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

Max Shields, September 29 at 8:49 am #

By Inherit The Wind, September 29 at 7:55 am #

The truth will set you free - have NO FEAR.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

I suggest you take a listen to Democracy Now and what Robert Dreyfuss has to say about your saviour, the cyrena’s enigma, Obama.
Diamond, Dreyfuss also speaks to your instance that Obama is “not” part of the establishment - BUT OF COURSE HE IS!!

There’s also the Kucinich segment on the bailout and he alludes to the Obama cave-in.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/senators_john_mc cain_and_barack_obama

Obama actually comes out to the right of McCain on some his foreign policy. Obama - the spineless one - VS McCain - the nutcase. Some choice the duopoly gives us, Inherit.

If you can’t make the argument yourself, then you haven’t made the argument.

I can’t tell you how many bible-thumpers, when I stump them, tell me I need to study the bible more, or start quoting from it.  Whooptie-do..you can read.  It still doesn’t tell me where Cain’s Wife came from.

I get it from right wingers, too “Oh, you need to listen to Rush (!) or Laura (!!) or Ann (YECH!!!!!)”

If you can’t make the argument yourself, you can’t make the argument.  Citations are good for facts, or amusing quotes like:

“I would never join any club that would have ME as a member”  (Groucho Marx)
or
“The definition of a ‘gold mine’ is a hole in the ground—with a liar standing next to it ” (Mark Twain)
or
“Who your gonna believe? Me, or your own eyes?” (Chico Marx)

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 6:49 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

LOL… yes, but it only counts if you fit several of these…no.???  Please say YES, or I shall have to revert to point, “3”

Oh yes…my pig point:

“Amongst the most common animals, found almost everywhere in the world, are pigs. Though they are native to Eurasia, there is hardly any country of the world where you cannot find pigs roaming around the rubbish bins.”

http://lifestyle.iloveindia.com/lounge/facts-about-pig-1575.html

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm Link to this comment

I will enjoy my insanity and Albert!  Let see troublesum, seems like 4, 6, and 7 fits your last two posts.  Looks like you are shadow boxing to me.

outraged, boy am I going to get mileage out of delusional disorder.  Made my day!

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Obama got nervous at the debate when asked what he would have to cut to pay for the bailout.  It’s not that he doesn’t have plans to do a lot of cutting, but that he doesn’t want to get into it yet.  He’d rather wait until after the election to start announcing cuts in medicare, medicaid, veteran’s benefits, health care, you name it.  Everything but the military must be sacrificed for wall street.

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous
Nothing will change if democrats are elected.  If the past few days haven’t proven that to you, you are hopeless.  You meet Einstein’s definition of insanity.  People keep voting for democrats who are little more than errand boys for wall street, hoping that they will do something for main street.  The shape the country is in has as much to do with Clinton as it does with Bush.  The deregulation of wall street, the outsourcing of jobs, international trade agreements, the loss of manufaturing jobs, the decline of the middle class - all of that has Clinton’s name all over it.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2008 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Outraged you and George Bernard Shaw are delightfully insightful people.  He is one of my favorite authors.  Levity, most definitely needed in these most serious times.  I can certainly use that 10 point description of the delusional far and wide.  Can’t stop laughing.  Do you have any pig tales?

troublesum people do what they feel they need to do.  You and Nader too.  I am not so sure your assessment of Obama is correct.  I have a different view.  But differences are what makes the world interesting and I only hope it becomes a better one after the Republicans are no longer in power.  They have left an almost unfixable America.

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

No one has any illusions about Nader winning the election.  What we like about his being in the race is that we have a voice of truth speaking out amidst all the double talk and outright lies.  How can any intelligent, reasonably well informed person listen to Obama and McCain and not know that we are being talked down to and lied to.  We can’t have decent health care in this country like the Obama family has because it’s too late to change the system.  What kind of garbage is that?  If you swallow that stuff you’re to be pitied.  Your attitude is that if lies and corporate propaganda have corrupted the system and control what passes for public discourse then the truth had better shut its mouth.  I refuse.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

Re: Shenonymous

What insightful people know,

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
-George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903)
“Maxims for Revolutionists”

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

Re: Rus7355

I hope this helps.  From Wiki:

Indicators of a delusion

1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche.
9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

I sure several others could back me up on this, but it appears you suffer from symptoms, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,and 8,....since I don’t know you personally Rus7355, I can’t comment on points 9 and 10.  But the fact that 8 of these symptoms apply…. says something Rus… it really does.

Although as of late, it seems cyrena appears to be suffering from symptom 6, also.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

Well, really glad to hear that it is only I who is ignored by the Left the center and the right.  Your point makes sense to you Russ, but amuses me.

You said referring to me and posters on TD? 

“Your issues, as I read them, are not important to the Left, the Center and the Right.”

Of course you are right Russ, they are not my issues.

As far as assimulating ideas and opinions, have you ever done that? For some reason I cannot recall any being posted by you?  Oh yes the bigots, your use of the word is out of context, another word you use excessively.

Do you have any opinions or arguments on my ignored issues?

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2008 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

It is so humorous to see the handful of Nader holdouts.  He is really a nonentity in this election. You all and he just cannot admit it.  He didn’t capture the imagination of enough voters to get anywhere all these years. But he keeps beating the dead horse to death instead of becoming constructive.  He could be a huge voice if he really cared about America, but I’m afraid Ralph is only stuck on Ralph.  He may have good ideas, but so do other people.  I was once one of his biggest supporters but the handwriting is on the wall and has been for decades, maybe he should learn to read.  At least Dennis Kucinich is still a voice in Congress, he is really smart.  Whereas Nader, well has never been in office, always had megalomaniacal perspectives.  Maybe you all and he can create a focus group?

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

Creating single payer health care is quite simple.  You just put all citizens under the same plan federal employees have.  Educating people is quite simple - you make education a right not a privledge by writing a “GI” bill for the whole country.  In most western Eupean countries, college education is free to anyone who qualifies.  Obama has come up with a very dubious excuse for not signing on to single payer health care.  He says he would do it if he were creating one from scratch.  What he really means is that he wants insurence companies to continue to control it.  If your house is a mess better leave it that way because you can’t go back and build it over.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Your comment: “Since he IS NOT, and practically speaking, CANNOT” AND, “What exactly IS his single-payer health care plan Outraged, and tell me how he intends to implement it. It’s simply not enough to talk all of this vague shit about who ‘supports’ what”

>>Seriously cyrena, if you believe Obama in this regard, I have a bridge to sell ya.  Obama is “attempting” to come up with a plan that will pad the pockets of INSURANCE COMPANIES.

Nader’s plan will EXPAND programs ALREADY IN PLACE such as medicare and medicaid.  This is easier AND less costly.

Your comment: “You have absolutely NOTHING to back such a claim that Obama is going to protect business interests over citizen’s interest.”

>> Yes, I do.  One would be his FISA vote, another would be his endorsement of “universal healthcare” which pads the pockets of insurance companies and another would be his choice of advisors.  Rubin is second ONLY to GRAMM regarding economic issues and both were instrumental in screwing the populous during the Clinton administration.

Your comment: “COMMON SENSE tells ANYBODY with a measure of it, that he can’t change anything without doing the work within the body that makes these decisions.”

>> Nader has done this.  What has Obama accomplished?

Your comment: “My ass; how arrogant and presumptuous is that? Do what I say and only what I say, and then maybe I’ll ‘help you out’. That’s bullshit, because Nader just said last week on the phone with Amy Goodman that he thought Obama should be supporting HIM!”

>> LOL.  Obama doesn’t have near the experience Nader has, why would Nader lower himself to Obama’s standard..?  In the post before this you claimed (I’m paraphrasing), that Obama asked Nader to join him, and Nader declined.  I’ve watched Obama “explain” this on Youtube.  The ARROGANCE of Obama to think someone with Nader’s skill, experience and knowledge could “have a place in Obama’s world”. Revolting.

Of course Nader thinks Obama should support him, doesn’t Obama think everyone should support Obama.  Where’s your logic?

Your comment: “ And anyone who wanted to, could go back over multiple posts and KNOW that I haven’t ‘smeared’ him. In fact, I’ve generally been both supportive and appreciative of much of his work.(I can almost hear the sneer in this last sentence)

>> Oh, this is how you’ve smeared Nader. (”he’s too egotistical and obstinate”) Everyone knows this is the “talking point” for smearing Nader, and you used it. BTW, many people such as myself do not want someone in the current “corporate crime wave loop”.

Your comment, “He’s out of the loop and without access to the information that he needs, because he’s too egotistical and obstinate to mingle with the masses that he wants to rule.

>> Additionally, in your latest post you’ve claimed ALL manner of things about me.  Your attacks and rhetoric reveal your thought processes.  Again this one takes the cake….LOL
You talk a lot of shit here Outraged, and none of it puts forth anything progressive or positive in actually accomplishing anything. All that proves, is that you DON’T *understand* a damn thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4nIpvhlgpo

Report this

By cyrena, September 29, 2008 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

No Outraged, it is YOU whom I fear must be joking, except that nothing is the least bit funny here. YOU are full of unsupportable rhetoric, and this is all OPINION, (nothing supported here)  Let’s begin with the one issue with Obama that concerns me as well.

•  “This is just more rhetoric. Nader and Obama’s plans are strikingly different.  Obama supports MORE WAR, Nader does not.  Nader supports single-payer healthcare, Obama does not. “

Obama does not support your hysterical rhetoric of *MORE WAR* and I’m sick of hearing this stuff from you and Max. Be specific, since you claim that Obama should, and he has. Obama has obviously made it clear that he supports concerted efforts to eliminate an extremist element located in a specific area of the globe. Specifically the area of the northern border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. I share his concern about that, because of the proximity to Pakistan’s arsenal of nuclear weapons. If you can find some other reference where Obama ‘supports more war’ then cite it. If Ralph Nader has made any comments at all on the dangers of global terrorist extremism, AND HOW HE WOULD DEAL WITH IT, then CITE it. Or, maybe Ralph doesn’t have an issue with any of that, and doesn’t consider it important. So what if a bunch of non-state crazos are blowing up the world, and innocents along with it. Is that his/your solution? Let’s just ignore them, and they’ll go away? All of the daily bombings taking place in the Middle East and South Asia are just a sign of restlessness, and they’ll all calm down eventually? Please.

It’s the same with the health care issue. On this, your rhetoric that Obama does not support a single-payer healthcare plan is the same typically SLEAZY innuendo (false) that you’ve accused me of, and it pisses me off. Barack Obama has SPECIFICALLY stated that IF he were DESIGNING a healthcare program FROM SCRATCH, he would make it a single payer plan. Since he IS NOT, and practically speaking, CANNOT, he’s come up with something that can and will provide affordable health care to millions of Americans who are not currently insured.

MEANTIME, Ralph Nader has ONLY *just* started talking about such a concern in the past few years, and even I’ve done more work on such efforts than he has. What exactly IS his single-payer health care plan Outraged, and tell me how he intends to implement it. It’s simply not enough to talk all of this vague shit about who ‘supports’ what, without even a mention of the logistics involved in implementing such a plan, and Ralph Nader has NOT!

You don’t have anything other than more rhetoric to claim that Obama has taken up the ‘corporate agenda’. He has NOT decidedly endorsed the business interests over the citizens interest, and the FISA legislation TO WHICH HE WROTE AN ADDITIONAL PROVISION THAT WOULD *REMOVE* IMMUNITY FOR THE TELECOMS is one example. A few dozen more examples would be the debate on Friday. Did you even watch it?

You have absolutely NOTHING to back such a claim that Obama is going to protect business interests over citizen’s interest. ZERO. And if you aren’t smart enough to know that some business interests are the SAME as citizen’s interests, then you definitely DO NOT know what most American’s want. Because most Americans probably want housing, food, healthcare, etc. And if there is not an infrastructure to provide for that, they won’t get it.

Report this

By cyrena, September 29, 2008 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2 outraged

Nader is out of the loop because he’s chosen to be. He has NEVER run for public office aside for every four years as president. COMMON SENSE tells ANYBODY with a measure of it, that he can’t change anything without doing the work within the body that makes these decisions. He’s chosen to remain ‘aloof’ and ‘above all of that’. Well, let me tell you something Outraged, NOTHING works that way. I’ve been on all sides of the spectrum, and no person is the island that Nader wants to be, and you cannot badger, blackmail, or coerce anybody into doing something. That’s why your comment suggesting that maybe if Obama just agrees with him on everything, he’ll ‘help him out’. My ass; how arrogant and presumptuous is that? Do what I say and only what I say, and then maybe I’ll ‘help you out’. That’s bullshit, because Nader just said last week on the phone with Amy Goodman that he thought Obama should be supporting HIM! In other words, let the minions get inside the motor and get their hands dirty to fix it, and then he’ll show up and decide if he might let them take the car out for a spin from time to time.

And when I talk about ‘the loop’, I’m talking about a traditional body of 535 people elected by the citizenry to get things done in the interests of the citizens. That’s called the CONGRESS, in case you’re unaware of that Outraged.  So yes, he IS out of the loop, and your insults to ME are uncalled for and over the top.

Nader has run for president 4 times. He’s lost each time. This is his 5th. If you choose to THROW AWAY your vote a 5th time, and leave us with McCain, then that is still your right. Bringing the rest of us down with you shows your individual ‘power’. It’s a really sick mentality that says, ‘If I can’t have what I want, then nobody else with have anything either”. It’s the murder suicide mentality that will waste a vote on somebody who can’t win. Besides that, Nader is 72 years old, and I know less about his running mate than I do about Palin.

If you have anything real to put on paper here, like how NADER is going to actually put more energy into households across the nation, for heating, and cooking, and lighting, and all the rest of the things that people need energy for, then lets hear it. If you know how NADER plans to get all citizens educated, then lets here it. If you know *HOW* Nader is going to provide single payer health care to all citizens, I wanna hear it. Don’t tell me he ‘supports’ it, because that’s bullshit. Tell me how he’s gonna DO it. I don’t need somebody, (a president or otherwise) to tell me wonderful things about how they ‘support’ all of the same things that I want, if they can’t make it happen any better than I can.

What I said about Nader was NOT a smear. You claim that I have ‘no basis’ for smears, but that I’ll smear him anyway. That’s rhetorical bullshit right there, because I haven’t smeared Nader. Not even close. And anyone who wanted to, could go back over multiple posts and KNOW that I haven’t ‘smeared’ him. In fact, I’ve generally been both supportive and appreciative of much of his work. But HE’S the one who’s chosen not to involve himself in the business of the people in the traditional sense, and that’s FACT, and hardly smears.

You talk a lot of shit here Outraged, and none of it puts forth anything progressive or positive in actually accomplishing anything. All that proves, is that you DON’T *understand* a damn thing.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment

By Outraged, September 29 at 11:47 am #


You’ve the patience of Job. The comments you’ve made have been made repeatedly by you, me and many other posters. cyrena is not interested in facts, she’s simply smearing to shout down an honest dialog.

She’s a waste of time Ouotraged and hardly worthy of your clearly stated and well documented post.

I want Nader on the stage, someone who understands this economy and the connection of it to the corporate driven imperialist foreign policy which creates endless war. It is that policy which is fully supported by Obama and frankly there’s no day light between his foreign policy and McCain’s.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena:

I’m guessing I’ve heard it all before anyway. In fact, I’ve already done the comparisons that you suggest, and Nader’s policy priorities and preferences are virtually the same as Obama’s with minor cosmetic differences. The huge difference is that Nader doesn’t have any plans on how he would make any of this stuff happen. He’s out of the loop and without access to the information that he needs, because he’s too egotistical and obstinate to mingle with the masses that he wants to rule.

For Ralphie it’s either his way or no way, and compromise or collaboration is totally out of the question. I say he’s got a right, and I guess that means, ‘no deal’. That’s why he didn’t get my ‘donation’ and why he won’t get my vote.

This is just more rhetoric. Nader and Obama’s plans are strikingly different.  Obama supports MORE WAR, Nader does not.  Nader supports single-payer healthcare, Obama does not.  Nader supports removing corporate “personhood”, Obama does not.  Nader supports all “green energy” and is against nuclear,  while Obama supports nuclear power and “clean coal”.  Nader supports stronger enforcement of corporate crime, Obama does not. 

You claim Nader “doesn’t have any plans”, you’re joking right…?  I’ve posted several of them in the past.  If Obama hadn’t taken up the corporate agenda, possibly Nader could’ve helped him out.  But as it is Obama has decidedly endorsed business interests over citizen’s interests, the FISA legislation would be one example.

It is apparent by your comment, “He’s out of the loop and without access to the information that he needs, because he’s too egotistical and obstinate to mingle with the masses that he wants to rule.”  that it is YOU who is “out of the loop”.  Unless by “in the loop” you mean alignning yourself with big business over the citizenry.

I feel your assertion that Nader is “egotistical and obstinate” to be your personal opinion based upon rhetoric.  Calling Nader egotistical and obstinate is like calling Obama a muslim.  It seems that even though YOU’VE NO BASIS for your claims YOU’LL smear him anyway.  It is a debased right-wing mentality to use fiction as a smear tactic.  Of course it is also common knowledge that this is the type of sleazy tactic employed by those whose facts do not support their argument.

I would not throw my vote away on someone who is not going to work in my best interests and chooses to protect big business over citizen rights.  In addition, there are several polls which show THE MAJORITY want out of the WAR, and choose single-payer healthcare over “univeral” healthcare.  So yes, I DO UNDERSTAND what the majority of people want, what the majority of Obama supporters are beginning to understand is that Obama, is NOT going to give them these things.

Vote Nader/Gonzales

Report this

By jackpine savage, September 29, 2008 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Rus,

That makes two of us, because you’ve never convinced me that you know of what you write either.

But if you’d like, please give us a threat assessment for Gulf War II (WMD bugaloo). Explain to us, the low, ignorant masses what kind of threat Iraq posed to the safety and well being of The United States. Of course, i wouldn’t expect you to expose anything that might jeopardize your security clearance…which i’ll have to assume you have. Just as i’ll have to assume that you actually do write threat assessments professionally.

I would prefer that you define terms like “national security” with detail before you use them.

Report this
Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, September 29, 2008 at 10:19 am Link to this comment

It is exceedingly doubtful that Nader could win anything even hands up (as in stick em up, fools!)  While Kucinich has the best ideas he doesn’t have the charisma.  Appearances is everything in these days of Spears and Hiltons, and Sarah Palins. 

Fahrenheit 451 my sentiments exactly!  Well put!  Thank you for your excellently succinct comment.

I can’t agree that this country is going into an oppression.  The depressed could just take a hike, it could do their disintegrating brain cells a lot of good.  Oh, and stop drinking booze, that might help.

And thank you Sodium for the reminder about what to do about Iran.  It’s time some sobriety takes hold here.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, September 29 at 7:55 am #


The truth will set you free - have NO FEAR.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

I suggest you take a listen to Democracy Now and what Robert Dreyfuss has to say about your saviour, the cyrena’s enigma, Obama.
Diamond, Dreyfuss also speaks to your instance that Obama is “not” part of the establishment - BUT OF COURSE HE IS!!

There’s also the Kucinich segment on the bailout and he alludes to the Obama cave-in.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/senators_john_mccain_and_barack_obama

Obama actually comes out to the right of McCain on some his foreign policy. Obama - the spineless one - VS McCain - the nutcase. Some choice the duopoly gives us, Inherit.

Report this

By Folktruther, September 29, 2008 at 9:20 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicker—in answer to your query- Can’t we Jews just get along?

No.

Henrich Heine, when he was old, stated he didn’t want to be remembered for his poems, stories and songs, but that he was a good soldier in the war for human liberation.

It is from the Zionism of Israel and America, and to a lesser extent Europe that we must be liberated from.  Patrick Henry does not distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism exactly right, but he is exactly right as to what a consideerable part of the world problem is.

My grandparents were killed by the Nazies and I am horrified that the current racism against Muslims in the War on Terrorism,  are led by Zionists, largely Jews. Inherit expresses openly the racism that my relatives and wife’s relatives conceal.  This racism trumps the long range geo-strategy of Israel, which is irrational as well as immoral. 

The Isreali premier,Olmert, freed of political pressures, said so yesterday.  Obama is to the right of his position.  American Zionists, both Jews and the religious loonies, are a major reason that a rational policy cannot be politically implemented.  What Olmert says is exactly opposite to what he did during his 35 years in politics, and he is trying to go out decent, as Ike did in his last speech about the military-industrial complex.

US militarism, which you support under the guise of being for peace, is largely promoted in the interests of Israel, not the US power system, and God knows, not in the interests of the US people.  It is not in the interests of the Israeli people either, or even the Israel power system, which Olmert acknowledged.

But the policy can’t be changed because those who oppose it are afraid to vigorously attack Aipac, et al, and other racist Zionims because they identify with Jewish power rather than the Jewish people.  If it is not changed Israel will be proven historically to be a bigger disaster to the Jewish people than the Holocuast.

However, I apologize for attibuting to you the same Zionist racism that Ihherit espouses.  I assumed, apparently wrongly, that your support for imperialism and militarism was based on Zionism.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

Not sure you are correct when you say most of the United States is just Right of Center, from what I have read most of the United States is against the war in Iraq, so being ignored has little to do with most, but the select few, the elite seems to me.  Right and left is just another way of saying us and them, a tool of divisiveness used to demonize. Gays and us, illegals and us, it is necessary to divide the people, but sometimes the bull shit becomes overwhelming and most people catch on. 

What is the far left fringe is in the eyes of the beholder, you are the beholder.
We do not get ignored we are ignored, and most of us know this, you seem to feel most people are not being ignored from your comment? 

Manipulation and opportunism takes precedence, sure I am being ignored, but it’s not only me and a few others, all the people are being ignored.  As Chaney said “so!”

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Max Shields, September 29 at 6:32 am #

By Inherit The Wind, September 29 at 6:16 am #

Yes this is a semi-free country., but my response was to cyrena who claims we cannot decipher Obama (aka enigma).

Yours is the same old tired duopoly line. And frankly most of what I’ve posted here is not about “voting” for anyone, but simply having Nader who clocks in at 5 - 10% in many polls. What are you so afraid of? He might actually give people a real choice? People who don’t even know he’s running because he’s shut out by the duopoly and the media.

You know what happened when Jesse Ventura got in the debates… Maybe that’s the fear. If so, be honest.

Whether he does or not push those numbers up, he’s on 45 state ballots, that aint chicken shit.
************************************

Weren’t you paying attention?

What I’m afraid of is that Nader will do to Obama what he did to Al Gore in 2000—drain just enough votes to tip the election to the fascists and christo-loonies (like Palin).

How much clearer can I say it? 
THAT IS WHAT I’M AFRAID OF!!!!

George W. Bush brought this nation to the brink of collapse AND the brink of a fascist dictatorship.  If McCain becomes President and dies, we WILL have a fascist dictator in power who has no IDEA that there are limits on power and corruption.

How much clearer can I say it? 
THAT IS WHAT I’M AFRAID OF!!!!

It’s not that Obama is perfect, it’s that he and a Democratic Congress will pull us back from the brink and re-establish civil liberties as a given, not a “privilege” to be extended as the President and Attorney General wish.  I’m terrified of becoming a Christian Taliban-ruled nation.

How much clearer can I say it? 
THAT IS WHAT I’M AFRAID OF!!!!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 29, 2008 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

By Outraged, September 28 at 9:11 pm #

Seriously, though, I think Nader and his followers are dedicated activists who would be an extremely valuable asset if they could somehow be persuaded to join the Obama coalition. I hope Obama Girl can do it if I can’t.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 7:53 am Link to this comment

Talking about threat assessments, does that mean threats to status elite?  We build military bases like Starbucks,  on every corner of the earth, try for a thousand before Bush leaves. 

Am I the only one who sees a madness in all of this? Mike Gravel was ignored like he did not exist, for a reason I suppose.  He would have called for questions to be answered about what should be answered.

Business as usual again folks, we are shafted over and over and come back for more, we the people.  Can you say apathy? Ignorance comes to mind.  Yes we need the most expensive military in the world, for it our duty to spread democracy, using the word democracy should be our religion of democracy around the world.

Freedom and Liberty for all, yes I see it, don’t you.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 7:32 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, September 29 at 6:16 am #

Yes this is a semi-free country., but my response was to cyrena who claims we cannot decipher Obama (aka enigma).

Yours is the same old tired duopoly line. And frankly most of what I’ve posted here is not about “voting” for anyone, but simply having Nader who clocks in at 5 - 10% in many polls. What are you so afraid of? He might actually give people a real choice? People who don’t even know he’s running because he’s shut out by the duopoly and the media.

You know what happened when Jesse Ventura got in the debates… Maybe that’s the fear. If so, be honest.

Whether he does or not push those numbers up, he’s on 45 state ballots, that aint chicken shit.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

By Leefeller, September 29 at 6:03 am #

“Well, while we have all been assessing the debate, they slipped money into the war budget again without a peep. Seems we are way over a trillion now and counting. Slight of hand and in your face people, two ways to feed the money hungry government cogs of distraction. 

Vote the bums out!  Actually if we do, it may not do much, except shifting who is shoving the flag up our ass.”

Exactly, and voting for an enigma or a nut-case hardly speaks to the fact that the empire is collapsing.

As usual Chalmers Johnson has been telling us this for years.

Where in the debate did our nearly 800 bases throughout the world come up? Who, when asked about cutting back given the pending trillion dollar bailout, mentioned our horrific military spending?

As I said Nader is a bellwheather whose voice on the stage with the complicit Dem/Repub/Media would have at least provided a clarion call.

Instead, we got more of the same, same old shit.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

Max Shields, September 29 at 5:26 am #

Inherit, voting for someone on the ballot is not a “delusional” act.

Voting for someone who is an enigma is.
***************************************

Lots of kooks get on the ballot.  Lyndon LaRouche was on it for years.  And yes, I DO consider voting for LaRouche a delusional act.

Throw your vote away…It’s still a semi-free country.

I don’t find anything enigmatic about Obama.  New mysteries and enigmas keep appearing about McCain, and McCain’s nutty VP choice, but not Obama.

Obams’s made some screw-ups, like voting for the recent FISA.  But nothing like McCain’s Drama Queen performances… ‘Oh, I can’t go on…there’s a hurricane.’  “Oh, I can’t go, my billionaire friends are losing money on Wall Street!’

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 7:03 am Link to this comment

Well, while we have all been assessing the debate, they slipped money into the war budget again without a peep. Seems we are way over a trillion now and counting. Slight of hand and in your face people, two ways to feed the money hungry government cogs of distraction. 

Vote the bums out!  Actually if we do, it may not do much, except shifting who is shoving the flag up our ass.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment

Inherit, voting for someone on the ballot is not a “delusional” act.

Voting for someone who is an enigma is.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

Cyrena, I’m going to talk to you as if you are a sane person, if Obama is such an enigma, why are you supporting him? What is it you THINK he’ll do?

See if you can answer this in a paragraph.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 6:03 am Link to this comment

Max Shields, September 29 at 4:49 am #

By cyrena, September 28 at 10:17 pm #

“You missed my point. The thing is that with OBAMA, one really DOES have to ‘be in the room’ and even THAT might not tell you what you wanna know, because that’s how far ahead of the rest of us he is. He’s NOT ‘coy’ but he doesn’t kiss and tell either.”

Folks I give you the late symptoms of the certifable delusional.

*************************************

From an expert on being certifiably delusional.  After all, he thinks it’s meaningful to vote for Ralph Nader, and that if every TDer votes for Nader it will make a positive difference.

Just like it did in 2000, preventing Florida from going to Gore and giving us the last 8 splendid years of George W. Bush but saving us from Gore, from no war in Iraq, from prosperity, from no deficit, from proper management of Katrina, from preserving our civil liberties.

Yup. It sure did a lot of good…...

Report this

By Max Shields, September 29, 2008 at 5:49 am Link to this comment

By cyrena, September 28 at 10:17 pm #

“You missed my point. The thing is that with OBAMA, one really DOES have to ‘be in the room’ and even THAT might not tell you what you wanna know, because that’s how far ahead of the rest of us he is. He’s NOT ‘coy’ but he doesn’t kiss and tell either.”

Folks I give you the late symptoms of the certifable delusional.

Report this

By jackpine savage, September 29, 2008 at 5:38 am Link to this comment

Rus,

Do you understand that the people who write a threat assessment might have a motive for writing the assessment as they do? Or do you simply take what you read at face value? Do you compare one assessment to others? And i thought that this was about history.

If it is, you might have read about how several major military men and politicians were quite clear at the beginning of the Cold War. They said, that they would have to “scare the hell out of the American people” to justify staying militarized and pump up their budgets. That’s history; that’s confirmed; and that contradicts the threat assessments that those same people put forth publicly.

So my question is: history or propaganda, which do you put your faith in?

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

cyrena, September 28 at 9:55 pm #

Tony,

Thanks for the link to the application for data people. How come I didn’t get one? I think this is discrimination. I got one to be a poll worker, but not to be a data person.

Is this a paid position? I bet it is. Hurruph! This is exactly what I mean. Indians and Black folk have been getting screwed in Amerika since the beginning. Add female to that, and it sinks me right to the bottom of the caste system.

And NOW, we find out that you’re not just a straight up white guy, (which is what you deceptively led us to believe) but that you’re even part JEWISH!!

That’s it. It’s blatant discrimination, and I’m gonna file a complaint at the civil rights division of the Obama campaign site. Got a link for that too?

XOXXOO smile

*************************************

Jeez-Loueez, Cyrena! 

You got insurance for people busting their butts falling off their chair laughing?

ROFLMAO!

Report this

By troublesum, September 29, 2008 at 4:20 am Link to this comment

Any North Korean will tell you that Kim il Jung is way ahead of them and to be in the same room with him is very heaven.

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 29, 2008 at 4:19 am Link to this comment

PatrickHenry, September 29 at 2:46 am #

By Inherit The Wind, September 28 at 4:17 pm #

What a narrow mind you have.
****************************

Yeah, I know. It’s always been my problem.

Here I am, worried about the Iraq illegal war.
Here I am, worried about the messed-up Afghan war.
Here I am, worried about the Russian paranoia that led to invading Georgia.
Here I am, worried about Global warming.
Here I am, worried that drilling will be used to put off, yet again, effective alternate energy to free us of foreign oil.
Here I am, yet again, worried about the disastrous economy and this half-assed bizarre bailout.
Here I am, worried about the civil liberties Bush has stolen.
Here I am, worried that a woman’s right to choose is in mortal danger.
Here I am, worried that a crazy old man, unable to control his emotions, with a weak grasp of issues, and a mediocre intellect, and a woman who’s a crazy christo-fascist who flunked out of 3?4?5? schools before she earned a journalism degree are about to become President and Vice-President, solely because the other candidate, despite blatantly better qualifications, happens to be Black.

But because I’m not willing to ignore all these other issues, which ARE relevant to this thread, and instead concentrate on all the ways and reasons that Israel should existence (as if this will bring peace to the ME and the world), I’m narrow-minded.

Oh, How can I live with the SHAME that “PatrickHenry” thinks I’m narrow minded???

The Horror! The Horror!

(snicker)

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, September 29, 2008 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, September 28 at 4:17 pm #

What a narrow mind you have.

Report this

By diamond, September 29, 2008 at 2:30 am Link to this comment

Ralph Nader will never form government in America. Never, ever. This gives him a great deal of freedom to wander around saying whatever the hell he wants. This is a luxury Obama and Biden don’t have, because they could actually be the government having to deal with foreign policy and domestic policy: in other words with reality. The Bush administration has never dealt with reality either which is the basis of their disastrous failure in government: instead they have made decisions from a list of ideological priorities and a rather bizarre wish list both of which had nothing to do with the real lives of real Americans or with geo-political realities. Nader can only siphon votes away from the Democrats and the end result of that if it goes too far would simply be John McCain and Sarah Palin presiding over US foreign policy - a fate too horrible to contemplate for the entire world. A vote for Nader is a wasted vote. You might as well throw it down the toilet. You should never give your vote to someone who has no possiblity of forming government. What does it matter how right you are or are not if you can’t ever introduce your policies and be the government? Politics is the art of the possible and Nader’s quest to form government is an exercise in futility and playing the role of the spoiler.

Report this
Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, September 29, 2008 at 2:10 am Link to this comment

The Record, of Stockton has just endorsed Obama, they have not endorsed a Democrat for 75 years. Stockton is like Kansas in California, a farm community or at least it used to be a farm community. Very conservative community, people in Stockton would buy a used car from Tom Delay,  an indication of is how conservative Stockton is, I believe they still have an annual KKK BBQ and pie sale. Well, something has changed?

My paranoia may be showing, this could indicate one of two things. 

First,  Lipstick on a pig Palin has turned off more people than Bush would as guest speaker at an IQ convention or is Obama perceived to be more to the right of the NRA pry my rifle out of my cold dying hands mentality.

Now I am concerned, is McCain throwing this on purpose, have the Republicans flocked to the Democrat side? Has the little known war and the Bush spending spree like money grows on trees attitude,  finally affected and connected into the little used section of Republican brains?

Guess, some of us already feel Lincoln’s Republican and Democrat, two drunks fighting on the street have already swapped coats.

Report this

By cyrena, September 29, 2008 at 1:35 am Link to this comment

Outraged,

You’re right.

•  “What you’ve asserted is rhetoric, and has as much basis in reality as Palin’s religious tirades.”

Well, at least about the first part. I agree, I’m talking a bit of shit/rhetoric here. But, it DOES have far more basis in reality than Palin’s religious tirade. In fact, there’s no comparison on that part. Palin is a flesh and blood example of the cynicism and distain that the republicans have for the US population.

I’ll be happy to qualify it on a more serious note, (instead of me talking trash) but if we really wanted to nit pick language, you don’t know what ‘most Americans’ want any more than any of the rest of us do. In fact, I was astounded when I read a post by lichen on another thread. She (or he) reiterated what he or she ‘heard’ Obama say in the debates. At the time, I hadn’t heard the ENTIRE debate, (I missed about the first 40 minutes on Friday). But, since watching the thing in it’s entirety, I had to wonder if he/she knew which guy was Obama, and which one was McCain.

that was my larger point with Max. He, makes a lot of ‘assumptions’ and predictions that may or may not be correct. In some cases, it could be because Obama isn’t clear enough, and in other cases, it’s because people are stupid, or because they attach their OWN INTERPRETATIONS, no matter how clear he is.

Based on that, even if you really did know what ‘most Americans want’ it wouldn’t matter if we were in the room or not. For instance, even if Max was walking two inches behind me and my colleague wearing the burqa or the headscarf, he wouldn’t have a clue to what we were discussing if we were speaking in Arabic or Russian. (then again, maybe he would).

That’s my point. When I say that Obama is ‘way ahead’ of most of us, that’s pretty much rhetoric. On the other hand, Obama has a very typical ‘professor’ type style that also makes some basic assumptions that the population already has some fundamental knowledge about things that he’s talking about. (I’ve learned that MANY do NOT). Now in a classroom environment, he’d have a chance to find that out, by asking some questions of the ‘audience’. But it doesn’t work that way in the realities of a campaign.

So, my rhetoric came from similar personal experiences. I say one thing, and people hear something else. Actually, I coined a portion of the rhetoric from Felicity, in sort of a ‘common experience reaction’ to something else way back. I can’t remember the specific circumstance, but she related the experience that I so often have myself. Obama (or whomever, but this was Obama) will say something, -anything- and there will be an immediate reaction, and the reaction leaves us saying (to ourselves or anybody within earshot) “But…that’s not what he said.” Because, it WASN’T what he said.

Another example is the time or two that he said he was thinking about making federal funds available to ‘faith based’ groups that provide social services, but that he didn’t have all of the details worked out yet. YOU immediately interpreted that as ‘funding religion’. So then I came up with a ‘solution’ that they (the groups) could just dump any names that give the perception of a religious organization. Like, they could just call themselves NGO’s, (Like the dozens of groups that Nader has formed). Depending on their ‘cause’ they get to apply for federal funding. But that didn’t carry any sway with you, because you were already convinced that it meant he wanted to ‘fund religion’ and that he was therefore violating the fundamental separation of church and state as enshrined in the constitution. So ok; I guess he can’t do that. If those religios wanna set up hospices they’ll just have to do it with their own money. WHOOPS…they don’t have any. Tuff luck for the dying. They’ll just have to do it in the street. At least that’s public property..sometimes.

Report this

By cyrena, September 29, 2008 at 1:33 am Link to this comment

Speaking of Nader, I’d been looking forward to exactly what you propose here, since he was ‘appearing’ on my campus today. But alas, the ‘suggested donation’ to get in to his appearance was $10.00 ($5.00 for students) and I didn’t have it. Now someone in line with me was willing to pay on my behalf, but I wasn’t to allow that. In fact, I was a bit miffed that this suggested donation wasn’t that at all. Granted we are a public institution, supported by the tax payers of California and what are now ridiculously high fees and tuition. So I figured he should be paying US to use the facilities.

That means that I didn’t ‘get to’ attend his appearance. Obama has been in our city twice, and didn’t ‘charge’ either time. Wait, one exception, he was here another time, specifically FOR a fund raiser at Oprah’s pad. No doubt the high rollers paid to attend, but I wasn’t among them. Hillary was here once, and didn’t charge either, even though I think we should have charged her for tying up every police unit within a 10 mile radius. (there were more police people than ‘attendees’). McCain was here once as well. I don’t think he charged, but then I don’t know. I was there with the group protesting his presence in our city, and we weren’t charged. (not even with a crime)

So, I missed Ralph, but several associates promised to take notes. I’m guessing I’ve heard it all before anyway. In fact, I’ve already done the comparisons that you suggest, and Nader’s policy priorities and preferences are virtually the same as Obama’s with minor cosmetic differences. The huge difference is that Nader doesn’t have any plans on how he would make any of this stuff happen. He’s out of the loop and without access to the information that he needs, because he’s too egotistical and obstinate to mingle with the masses that he wants to rule.

For Ralphie it’s either his way or no way, and compromise or collaboration is totally out of the question. I say he’s got a right, and I guess that means, ‘no deal’. That’s why he didn’t get my ‘donation’ and why he won’t get my vote.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 29, 2008 at 12:04 am Link to this comment

Re: Tony Wicher

Your comment: “ I cconsder myself a peace advocate and would like to reduce militarism to zero if possible. McCain is a belligerent warmonger whereas Obama believes in negotiation and conflict resolution.

It may be that you “consider” yourself a peace activist… however, a vote for Obama is FOR MORE WAR.  Obama has simply switched the geography, but not the crime.

He has said he will invade the area and countries of Pakistan and Afghanistan in the border areas.  AND, that he will “protect” Israel, carte blanc.  If PEACE is your position.  Obama should NOT be your candidate.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 28, 2008 at 11:44 pm Link to this comment

Re: cyrena

Your comment: “The thing is that with OBAMA, one really DOES have to ‘be in the room’ and even THAT might not tell you what you wanna know, because that’s how far ahead of the rest of us he is. He’s NOT ‘coy’ but he doesn’t kiss and tell either.


Cyrena, the American Public is definitely NOT “in the room,” at least literally.  However, your assertion that “even THAT might not tell you what you wanna know”, speaks VOLUMES.  But then… still, that apparently isn’t enough… according to you, “that’s how far ahead of the rest of us he is”.

First of all, can you QUALIFY your assertion… LOL.  Secondly, I don’t think Obama is “ahead” of the rest of us.  Truth be told, he’s rather LAX.  Especially if you consider the REALITY of Obama’s… what was it….enigma…LOL.

Either way, you.. it appears, are BANKING on a fantasy… an enigma.. as you’ve called it.  Most AMERICANS prefer to put their money is a safe place, and not a phantasmagorical “enigma”.

What you’ve asserted is rhetoric, and has as much basis in reality as Palin’s religious tirades.

COMPARE your candidates positions against those of Nader’s.  Who wins….?  (even by your own measure)

Report this

By cyrena, September 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm Link to this comment

Max,

You missed my point. The thing is that with OBAMA, one really DOES have to ‘be in the room’ and even THAT might not tell you what you wanna know, because that’s how far ahead of the rest of us he is. He’s NOT ‘coy’ but he doesn’t kiss and tell either.

I mentioned ZBig because you spent a considerable amount of time at one point, predicting Obama’s foreign policy, based on the rumors that he “talked” to Brzezinski. (BTW, there is no ‘official roster’ on who advises Obama about anything, or what they say).

Still, that’s your habit. You program your crystal ball based on ‘associations’ to predict what Obama will say or do. (and I did a better job picking horses for my dad when I was nine years old). So for instance, if you saw me walking down the street with a woman wearing a head scarf, you’d predict that we were plotting to blow up a building. In reality, the conversation would be about babysitting arrangements for her infant, or which one of us was gonna grade the mid-term exams for French IV.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm Link to this comment

Again quoting Max, “”Did you hear them? it went like this: War war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war war….for most of the 90 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-NRriHlLUk

Or.. if you prefer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S2zkh6ZOGE

Hey.. if that doesn’t “trip your trigger”, how ‘bout some Carlin…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI5EY5kqiBU

Some people…are alive….ALWAYS…

STAND UP AMERICA, STAND UP.

Report this

By cyrena, September 28, 2008 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

Tony,

Thanks for the link to the application for data people. How come I didn’t get one? I think this is discrimination. I got one to be a poll worker, but not to be a data person.

Is this a paid position? I bet it is. Hurruph! This is exactly what I mean. Indians and Black folk have been getting screwed in Amerika since the beginning. Add female to that, and it sinks me right to the bottom of the caste system.

And NOW, we find out that you’re not just a straight up white guy, (which is what you deceptively led us to believe) but that you’re even part JEWISH!!

That’s it. It’s blatant discrimination, and I’m gonna file a complaint at the civil rights division of the Obama campaign site. Got a link for that too?

XOXXOO smile

Report this

By diamond, September 28, 2008 at 10:44 pm Link to this comment

It’s ‘meaningless drivel’ max shields, to call both candidates ‘products of the establishment’ political or otherwise when one of them so obviously is not. Can you imagine John McCain having Pastor Wright marry him and baptize his children? Can you imagine McCain working as a community organizer? Of course you can’t because it would never happen. McCain has been in Washington for decades, Obama only a few years. McCain has had decades to change things and has changed nothing and why would he? The way things are suits him just fine. I’m sure he agrees with the man with the massive head and the tiny brain Newt (a newt is a species of lizard, fits him like a glove) Gingrich who called the bailout ‘UnAmerican’. You know what else is ‘UnAmerican’? To be a lying, thieving, good for nothing piece of shit like McCain and Gingrich. After any robbery it’s necessary to ask ‘Where did the money go?’ It went to McCain and Gingrich’s rich friends on Wall Street and in the rarified atmosphere of the upper class. These people treat the taxpayers’ money as if it’s monopoly money. Of course they do, they don’t have to do the back breaking work that earns it but to then turn around and say that your precious ideological principles are offended by the bailout because it’s ‘socialism’ is stupidity and cynicism beyond measure. Every war these monsters ever fought was paid for by the taxpayer but the taxpayers don’t even have the right to decide which wars they’ll pay for or when they’ll end. McCain talking about change is like a prostitute talking about virginity. If Obama was establishment he would be streets ahead in the polls. When people say he’s inexperienced what they mean is that he, unlike McCain, might actually begin to clean the Augean stables that Washington and the political process has become. The right wing political elite and the hacks that ‘serve and protect’ them in the media are really, really afraid of that. And yet if someone doesn’t do it, and soon, America will begin an irreversible decline - economically and militarily. It’s already happening. Obama is not the audacity of hope, he’s your only hope.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 28, 2008 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

Re: Tony Wicher

Your comment: “Ralph Nader gettin it on with Obama Girl! That’s more like it. All Ralph has to do is loosen up a little - he might even get laid!”

Well…I guess that’s YOUR take…..hmmmmmm…  I’m not saying a word, not one word….

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

Re Outraged, September 28 at 8:28 pm #

Ralph Nader gettin it on with Obama Girl! That’s more like it. All Ralph has to do is loosen up a little - he might even get laid!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

The link for anyone interested in looking at the “data fellow” application

http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/datafellows

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

By kath cantarella, September 28 at 5:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

What are you guys going to do about the vote-fixing?
——————————————————————————
Good post and thanks for asking, Kath. I just got an email from Obama for America asking me to apply for a position with the campaign as a “data fellow”. I suppose they are looking for citizens with some expertise to help monitor the polls and the vote count. Everybody who values democracy should be thinking about what they could do to help keep the voting as honest as possible. Remember Stalin words: It’s who counts the votes, not who gets the most votes that matters.

Report this
Outraged's avatar

By Outraged, September 28, 2008 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

So then…how about a little entertainment….hmmmm I know, I know, the economy is falling apart, but before it goes, while you still have the internet…. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4nIpvhlgpo&eurl=http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, September 28 at 5:28 pm #

And I’m Jewish, not Moslim, but have inherited the universalist wing of Judism rather than your nationalistic racism.
—————————————————————————
Folkie,

I’m at least part Jewish myself and most of my family friends when I was growing up a political exile in Mexico in the 50’s belonged to that category - universalist or internationalist Jews - you might almost say the socialist internationalist branch of Judaism, so my inheritance is similar to yours.

CAn’t we Jews all get along?

Report this

By Max Shields, September 28, 2008 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

cyrena,
“What makes you think that the average voter even gives a shit about Obama being half white and half black? We’ve had half black and half white presidents before.”

Never said they did.

But to Rubin and Summers. These guys built on Reaganomics and got Clinton to sign on to NAFTA. You could almost say they got done what Reagan could only dream of doing. They’re key advisors to Obama. You don’t need to be in the room…your thinking is like what we’ve been getting from Bush supporters for the last 8 years. (Btw, Brzezinski is foreign policy advisor not economics.)

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/09/10/1/a-discussion-about-the-economy-with-robert-rubin-and-larry-summers

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 7:00 pm Link to this comment

Re Folktruther, September 28 at 3:46 pm #


I see, Inherent, other countries discriminate on the basis of class, ethnicity and gender, therefore Israel is not an Apartheid state.  That argument could be used for South Africa as well, or the segregation in the US, or, for that matter, Nazi Germany.  The Cyrena and Wicher agree with you is not surprising:  they are both also for increased militarism, the corporate bailout, and the bipartisan police state.
—————————————————————————-
No, actually I don’t agree with ITW about Israel being an apartheid state; I just happen to agree with you, as you would know if you would accept my invitation to google my name.

The rest of your charges are beyond ridiculous, but just for the record…

I am not for increased militarism; in fact I cconsder myself a peace advocate and would like to reduce militarism to zero if possible. McCain is a belligerent warmonger whereas Obama believes in negotiation and conflict resolution.

I believe that there is an economic crisis warranting some kind of government action, but not for giving a trillion unaccountable dollars to the former head of Goldman Sachs. Not even honest Republicans supported it. Obama specified the four major points which the Democrats insisted on. The bill as passed will contain those points. When Obama is President we will see whether the taxpayers get their money back or not. So do I support the bailout in this form? I trust Obama to manage it well and not allow the people to get ripped off, so yes, I support it.

The bipartisan police state? What??? I support a police state? You really don’t know me, do you?

Report this

By kath cantarella, September 28, 2008 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What are you guys going to do about the vote-fixing?

In 2004, over 3 million votes were not counted. Most of them were from non-white voters. i believe Bush won by about 500 000 votes. That is the ultimate corruption of ‘democracy’. Whoever is responsible for this election fraud should be put behind bars for a very long time. Who did it? Who’s responsible? Why haven’t they been exposed?

Do they realize a lot of people in the rest of the world know about this?

Obama needs to win by a landslide or they will do it again. The Dems aren’t perfect, but the current people have to go before anything you do will make any impact at all on the future of your country.

Stop lumping Obama in with McCain. Obama is so much LESS of a tyrant.

Please don’t let it happen to the world.

Swallow your pride and vote for a chance to improve things. Vote for the thin end of the wedge, and then lean on him. He will lsten to his constituents. McCain only listens to himself.

Report this

By Folktruther, September 28, 2008 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment

These wild absurdities, Inherit, attributing to me the ideology that the destruction of the Jews will bring peace and prosperity to the world, serve a useful purpose. It demonstrates that Zionist bigots like you are totally irrational when it comes to Israel, and must be ignored when constructing a reasonaable policy.  And I’m Jewish, not Moslim, but have inherited the universalist wing of Judism rather than your nationalistic racism.

Report this

By Michael Kerjman, September 28, 2008 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This presidential campaign is all of challenging the traditional: the government providing financial assistance to private banks to smooth a global financial crisis hardly demonstrates an iron-clad attachment to own free market postulates. 

Flexibility is all in a world where China launched manned space missions, and more and more nations quest their share in global energy consumption.

I like a style this article written with.

Report this

By GrammaConcept, September 28, 2008 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

What a Well-Written essay this is, Mr.Boyarsky…
I really enjoyed the ride, the view, and the destination..
good literature is a genuine high…

**************************************************
See it?
There it is!
Right there in front of you..
The impossible; the unattainable…...
Yours!...If you take it right now!...
See it?
There it is..

Right there in front of you.


-Strive on, friends…I’m feelin’ kinda’ warm today…’-)

Report this

By Inherit The Wind, September 28, 2008 at 5:17 pm Link to this comment

Always back to the one topic here at truthdig:
How the destruction of Israel and, by extension all Jews, will bring peace and prosperity to the world.  Because Israel and Jews are the source of all the world’s problems.

This is fundamentally a Moslem extremist ideology that has been deliberately crafted to infect Western progressives….to bring them to the insane idea that Jews are the cause of all the world’s problems.

Report this

By Observant Voter, September 28, 2008 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Let`s face it…enough of the sweet talk here.
This “silly Maverick-BS” and “straight-talk Express”
McCain has become a changed person ever since he emerged as a die-hard advocate of the neocon-AIPAC
philosophy,as shown with this latest revelation.

a.“Bimbo” Sarah .....not his personal choice !
b.“Slimy” Joe .......crawling up his Ass !
This change has resulted in that he is sounding more and more the very same from either end of his body:
talking “horse-shit” ,as seen during his last debate with Barack Obama with a demeanor that of a arrogant,sarcastic and cynical “dumb-ass”,
rather than that of a person seeking the presidency of the United States of America.A sad display indeed.

Report this

By Folktruther, September 28, 2008 at 4:46 pm Link to this comment

I see, Inherent, other countries discriminate on the basis of class, ethnicity and gender, therefore Israel is not an Apartheid state.  That argument could be used for South Africa as well, or the segregation in the US, or, for that matter, Nazi Germany.  The Cyrena and Wicher agree with you is not surprising:  they are both also for increased militarism, the corporate bailout, and the bipartisan police state.

You can continue to make absurd arguments like this but the American people are getting tired of Israel hijacking both US foreign and domenstic policy.  When the US adopts the murder, imprisonment, torture and stealing the resources of the American population, as Israel does of the Palestinian population, they are going to connect these policies with Zionism.  As they should.

Your defense of Israeli apartheid is inimicable to the survival of Israel.  Israel is becoming increasingly isolated in a hostile world, and must humanize itself to survive.  With defenders like you, I honestly don’t think it can.

Historical change is not an easy matter.  IF Israesl is to change it must be attacked by its supporters for what it is, an apartheid state.  And attack Aipac and the other Likud organs as well.  The Jewish community has not done that, a major reason why the future of Israel is limited to a few decades.

Report this

By cyrena, September 28, 2008 at 4:35 pm Link to this comment

Re: By Max Shields, September 28 at 2:33 pm

•  “First Robert Reich was Clinton’s Labor Secretary, and he was nowhere to be found when Rubin was advising Obama about the Bailout.”

And, (Max)…you ‘know’ this….HOW????? Were you there? Did you look for him?

More crystal ball stuff Max. We’re supposed to believe what you have zero proof of. I had a dream about Obama last night. In my dream, everything was the opposite of what you ‘predict’. What makes your crystal ball any more valid than my dream?

What makes you think that the average voter even gives a shit about Obama being half white and half black? We’ve had half black and half white presidents before.

http://www.bigissueground.com/history/blair-blackuspresidents.shtml

So, it’s only a ‘nice story’ if you care about stuff like that. (racists are the only ones likely to care, and that doesn’t play in Obama’s favor, so big deal).

As far as his ‘choices’ to enter the white power structure, your crystal ball is really jacked up there, and that’s looking at it in hindsight. If he’d been on the white power structure track, he would have gone to work for Wall Street like most others do when they leave institutions like Harvard or Columbia. He went to academia and public service. NOT exactly a big money maker Max. But then, I think you know that, which is why you have to spend all of your time re-writing history to calibrate your crystal ball of bullshit innuendo.

BECAUSE…the FACT of the matter is that YOU DON’T KNOW who has Obama’s ear, or what advice he’s taking, or from whom. In fact, you and/or anybody else can speculate all you want about Rubin, or any one else, (what happened to ZBig, you were complaining about him being in Obama’s ear. Is he part of ‘following the money’?)

Nope, you don’t know, because one of the many consistencies about Obama’s campaign has been that he consistently holds his cards very close to his vest. And if he’s paranoid about anything at all, it’s LEAKS. Now the lesson that he may not have learned about this –yet- (though I could have told him) is that when ‘people’ don’t KNOW enough of your business or intentions, they just make shit up. Then again, he may in fact be perfectly well aware of that, as well as the other human characteristic which dictates that even when ‘people’ DO know, they make shit up anyway.

YOU would fall in that category. And, as usual, people like you always make huge blunders. In short, if someone – anyone, decided to call your bluff and actually “follow the money” (and I know a few who make this a career project) the trail wouldn’t lead to or wind up where you insinuate that it should. In fact, we already KNOW where that trail leads, and it’s to the neocons, and the repiglicans, (John McCain, Keating 5, Phil Gramm, (Mr Deregulation and repug’s official keeper of the Magic 8 Ball) Halliburton/Enron, (Cheney) The Carlyle Group, (the Bushes) W.R. Stephens, Arkansas, (Clintons) and of course I could go on.

Your crystal ball is all rabbit hole Disneyland stuff Max. You’ve been living in Karl Rove’s image and likeness for too long. Yep, the one that says you can create your own reality. I guess you can, but it doesn’t mean anybody else is gonna buy into it.

Report this

By Max Shields, September 28, 2008 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, September 28 at 2:06 pm #
First Robert Reich was Clinton’s Labor Secretary, and he was nowhere to be found when Rubin was advising Obama about the Bailout.

As I said, follow the money. Obama will go to Rubin and Summers, two avid neoliberals and free traders, not Reich or Stiglitz or James Galbraith. The latter three are outsiders of Wall Street and the closest thing to New Deal Dems. There is no sign that they will have the ear of Obama.

In order to understand who Obama will lean toward/on you simply need to observe what he does in times of crises, that’s where his instincts are and that’s where he will continue to go. Human behavior rarely lies, while rhetoric nearly always does.

Where Obama has come from to get where he is will tell you more about who he is than anything else. The stories about being half white and half African, are nice, but it’s the choices he made to move in the circles of white power that is most telling.

Follow the money.

Report this

By cyrena, September 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

RE: By Inherit The Wind, September 28 at 10:47 am

•  “Rather than demonize Russia, especially when they follow policies not too different than Bush’s, it’s better to look at motivations, and opportunities…”

Inherit:

Thanks for the excellent posts…all of them. I ditto Leefeller. I also happen to share your observations, analysis, and opinions. Imagine that.

BTW, I don’t think Fadel or anyone else has accused you of being me, or me of being you. (yeah, it could happen if we keep agreeing with each other). It hasn’t yet though.

Report this

By Sodium, September 28, 2008 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Subject:McCain,Obama and Kissinger in an Unpleasant Dispute over Negotiating with Iran.

John McCain’s ugly and mean-spirited attempts to belittle Obama in the first debate held on September 26,2008,at the University of Mississippi in Oxford seemed to have produced the opposite result of what McCain had intended.Obama’s demeanor and remarkable
patience had repelled,with extraordinary grace, the cheap shots attempts made by McCain back to McCain’s
old and exhausted face.McCain looked small in status;  and appeared as an arrogant oldman,and,above all disrespectful to the basic humanity that tied him to Obama,Jim Lehrer,the moderator,his auditorium audience and the millions of human beings who watched the debate on TV,in the U.S. and all over the world.

When a person becomes a well known public figure,his or her behaviors are no longer just belong to him or her,but to all people who may be affected by such behaviors.This is a basic fact no public figure can shy away from.Otherwise,he or she must avoid becoming a public figure,at all cost.

At any rate,it was a disgraceful performance when McCain angerily and implicitly called Obama a liar as Obama mentioned that Henry Kissinger,a former Secretary of State,in the Nixon Administration,as one of those experts,in the field of diplomacy,who had
recommended to negotiate with Iran directly.

It had happened that I watched the whole CNN’s outstanding program entitled “The Next President:A World Wide Challenges” in which CNN’s brilliant foreign correspondent,Christian Amanpour,who was moderating the program,raised the question to the five former U.S. Secretaries of State,gathered for their expertise in the field of diplomacy,whether or not the U.S. should negotiate directly with Iran.Just for the records,the expert answers to the question were the following straight forward answers:

Former Secretary of State Colin Powel’s answer was “YES”.

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright’s answer
was “YES”.

Former Secretary of State Warren Christopher’s answer
was “YES”.

Former Secretary of State James Baker’s answer was “YES”.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger’s answer was “YES”.

It seems to me that the only way to find out what was
Kissinger’s actual answer to the question raised by Christian Amanpour would be to review the tape of the event.Perhaps,YOUTUPE will eventually make it available for the whole world to see….....

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, September 28, 2008 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

How about Robert Reich? Neoliberal hawk, you say?

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2008/04/obama-bitterness-meet-press-and-old.html

Report this

Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 >

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.

Like Truthdig on Facebook