cyrena--This is just my opinion on this. I realize that you are associated with some faith based groups.
Most progressive churches I’ve been to (been a long time) support differences of opinion and dissent.

The reason you cant really tell , at first glance, whether the Red Cross is a quasi-religious organization, is that they dont advertise whther they are invovled with a church or not. That is as it should be. Otherwise it just looks like they are politicking for their particular religious beliefs.

The problem I have with letting religious organizations fill in for the govt, is that they will end up always doing what the govt has a RESPONSIBILITY to do. We have already paid them to do things like FEMA in Hurrican Katrina and so many other things. To let them off hte hook for this, and turn it over to relisious organizations, is to ask the religious organizatiosn to fulfil a need that they cant psossibly meet..

Unless you go with the “poor wil always be among us” idea. I dont think that they have to be. There is really no excuse for the way people were living in the 9th ward of NO, and it sure doesnt say much for the govt prog. We need to FINANCE and SUPPORT govt organizationsm not just say “Oh , they cant seem to do it anyway”. That sounds like a small govt.GOP position to me

Maybe they shouild allow people who are religious to pay fewer taxes (I dont mean churches--they already dont pay), as long as they donate it to a church charity. I just dont think that people that dont support religion should have to support church organizations, and, it violates the separation of church and staet. That is not being absolutist. That is in the constituiton,. And I know you know that.

I know that we should not have to support a war or anything else we dont believe in. But, I know a guy who tried that, and he jusr had to wsell his house to pay back taxes. I would think that conscientuous objector status would be almost impossible to get now. Canada wont even offer troops asylum anymore.

Outraged…

Indeed you’re right that I don’t do melodrama well at all, but the people living in cardboard boxes are actually quite real.

I did read the link you provided, and I’ve read Pam’s House Blend before. In better times, it’s informative and thought provoking.

In times like this, it’s the same as pulling the wings and legs off of flies. You spent a lot of time laying out a complicated scheme for how you could rip off the feds (via grants for social programs) and still be allowed to discriminate. That’s a ‘leisure’ argument for ‘leisure’ times, and these times aren’t that.

In fact, this whole obsession that you have with anything that has a ‘faith based’ linguistic attached to it is a serious departure from the real urgencies of the day. In other words, it’s a matter of priorities, and that one is simply very low on the scale, at least if we’re talking about the ‘collective’ scale. However, if it provides a rationalization for why you prefer to vote for someone other than Obama, then so be it. That’s your prerogative, and that’s to be respected.

But again, in the REALITY of last half-century, maybe more, these so-called “faith based” organizations are absolutely NO different than the NGO’s that your hero Nader has set-up, except of course the fact that they actually ACCOMPLISH something at the TRIAGE LEVEL!!!

So, when the people of New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast were being wiped off the map, it was ONLY those churches and other so-called ‘faith based’ organizations that were doing anything at all. The only exception is the Red Cross, and if we looked hard enough, one could probably find some sort of ‘faith’ element there as well. And if the results of Katrina, or the results of an 8 year-long economic DEPRESSION are considered ‘melodrama’ then it is what it is. I don’t think the people living this consider it so. Or, if they do, they sure wish (or even pray) that they could be ‘drama-free’.

Meantime, I still spend far too much time in social triage (yes, the homeless outreach and other related activities) to give your obsession much attention..at least for the moment. In the past decade that I’ve been doing this work, the only organizations that have been able or willing to provide any real help have been these very organizations. I have no problems funding them any more than I had giving funds to the Sickle Cell Anemia Foundation back when I actually had money of my own to donate. As you may or may not know, that Foundation’s work obviously centers on assistance for those with the disease, and for research and treatment potential for those who have it. And, it’s mostly those of African descent who have it. So could we make a case for why they shouldn’t be able to apply for federal funds? I’m sure you could. And, somebody like Ron Paul, absolutely WOULD!! (which is why I made the comment that I did about your analysis being an excellent tool for his ideology).

At the end of the day, your stand is one of the absolutists. It’s problematic for any absolutist, because it leaves you zero wiggle room. It’s like backing yourself into a corner as you carefully place sticks of dynamite all over the distance you’ve just covered on your way to that corner. Once there, you can take a moment or a few months to say with all satisfaction, “There, that’ll fix ‘em! No money for THOSE folks. Long live the Separation of Church and State! Thanks be to God!” And then, somebody or something drops a dime on that dynamite you’ve surrounded yourself with, and well....the rest is history. No state or religious affinity is gonna be there to save you. We can only say, RIP to Outraged, who stayed pure and absolute until the end.

Meantime, I’ve got real work to do at the triage level.

Re: Cyrena

Your comment: “You’ve just provided an argument for why there should be NO federal funding of ANY social programs, and particularly those operated by the STATE, where the discriminators have been at it for a really long time, and can’t be fired or shut down.”

>> I disagree.  You can do better than melodrama.  Facts...facts.

BTW, That was a quote from the “Pam’s House Blend” site.  But read the entirety, don’t cherry-pick, I posted the link.

“This is not the federal government using taxpayer money to discriminate?  How is that more than a fig leaf?”

Outraged, if it’s a fig leaf, then there are older ones to rip down first.

You’ve just provided an argument for why there should be NO federal funding of ANY social programs, and particularly those operated by the STATE, where the discriminators have been at it for a really long time, and can’t be fired or shut down.

And, Ron Paul would LOVE your workup here.

Now those people living in the cardboard boxes under the LA freeways? Ah...nobody from ‘the state’ is there to help them, or even talk to ‘em.

Dammit, I might have to get some Christians or worse to go with me to bring them food, and tampons. Maybe I’ll just tell them not to let anybody know that they’re Christian. Oh but wait, it doesn’t matter. This is our own money we’re using for the food and tampons. (and the soap and shampoo has been pilfered from the private sector as well).

No problem then. We’ll just let the feds keep their money. Nevermind those damn Christians who think they should help some of those less fortunate. If their stupid enough to visit hospices and spend their own money on these dead beat citizens living on the street, that’s their fault. How DARE they expect a little help from the State. Shouldn’t have been born to begin with, right?

kath--sorry. I just reviewed your earlier post. You are correct. WE are all guilty.

I explained how these people were dis-enfranchised. You just dont want to hear or know.

So, I will hold you PERSONALLY (and all the poor people in Austrailia, the natives, many of whom are forced to live like crap) responsible for John Howard, as well as what Aussie troops do in Afghanistan.

So, what , you think, Afghanistan invasion is jsut fine? YOu are hardly in a positon to be so self-righteous. Get Austrailia out of Afghanistan. And we will try to do the sam in the US. Obama wil only increase the forces there.

kath cantarella: ‘… I can’t vote in your elections and i’m furious that a fuckwit like Mac is equal in the polls with Obama. THIS IS THE FAULT OF THE VOTERS OF THE USA.’

You won’t find many of that sort of voter on this web site.  If you want to vent your fury on its just targets, maybe Free Republic can supply you with some.

kath--I am really tired of everyone that disagrees with Obama being an implied neo-con. I wouldnt vote mcCain if I was waterboarded.

Correction--they reported that there are still 50,000 peopl without power. DaytonCity Schools wil not open (Sorry that I think that matters) (??). Course if they keep letting charte r and church schools take up funds meant for public schools, they wil probably all vote GOP--anti abortion/anti-gay’

“heartless is as heartless does??"”

Do you think I support McCain or something??

I must be mistaken. I thought you were Canadian.

YOu are wrong about most of them not voting. They tried, but were caged and challenged. I was with move on.org election- saw it myself.Tubs-Jones and Bxer filed reports and the Dems had a hearing (50,000 wouldnt have do it--Bush cheated by 500,000 and Kerry wimped out that very night.) That is what Dems do. Have hearings.

Thats was one of the falling dominos that made me realize that the Dems do not care about the same things I do. Ive voted for them half of my life. It didnt work. If they are inline with yur values--youre lucky .; YOu are represented by one of the major parties.

Kath--Canada is “with us” n Afghanistan, and if you are concerned about elections, maybe you should be focusing on Canada’s--a conservative is fairly possible, right?

The people in these low-income neighborhoods (it alwasy takes longer to get power back there--15,000 people) that are going without water, are not responsible for the deaths in Iraq,as they did not have a choice. Alot of them are Af. Am. so I really doubt that they voted Dubya.

I couldnt have pulled a coup alone, but I did protest many times, called al over, blah blah.

The problem is, that that doesnt do much good in the uS. That is why (since the people in power, once elected, have no reason to listen to the people once they are elected--the “president” dosent answer to “parliament") I belive we need more radical change than Obama can bring. That is the real issue here isnt it?

There are people here whose lost power cost them a month’s supply of food. Kids who have to go back to school without a drink or a bath.(well, not yet--many schools have no elec.--theyve never had ac around here--but they do need lights and flush toilets in an urban area) I was against BOTH wars (Iraq and Afghanistan) from the beginning, and anyone around here (or that is supposed to “represent” me) knows it.

I dont think that your point was “Iraq has no power” at all. As horrible as that is.I think your “point” is that we disagree on teh election here in the US, and maybe, alot of other things. Why dont we leave it at that

Kath C , religion does bind people together . I gives all of the weak minded a place share their prejudices , plus a platform to attempt to shove their mythology and personal beliefs down others throats . I do support Obama , I am a bit concerned about his drifting to the right however , now its school vouchers or charter schools , enough already .

By Jim C, September 20 at 2:28 pm

• “The supreme court is in the balance also , can you imagine a mccain/palin pick ?

Jim C,

Even if there was no other reason to elect Obama, (although there are many) THIS is it. It’s isn’t at all hard for me to imagine a McCain/Palin pick. Today, (for the first time in my tiny section of the nation) I saw an oversized SUV with a McCain/Palin bumper sticker. It was attached just beneath another long ago stenciled “Jesus is my lighthouse” affirmation on the back window. It’s hard to describe how ‘invaded’ I felt. It was more than creepy, it scared me…it was a reminder that they are to be feared, and it annoys me to no end to hear the whackos claim that they will not be forced to vote for the ‘lesser’ of evils,” when such a mentality and the action supported by it is going to accomplish keeping the most evil in power. Those who are most obsessed with the guarantee that the Constitution provides for a Separation of Church and State, are quite willing to toss that as well, by blowing a vote for known loser, (the perennial presidential candidate Nader). A McCain/Palin SC pick will see the end of that Constitutional guarantee as well. It’s like saying, I’m not afraid of that rattle snake, and “fear” will *not* prevent me from picking it up and playing with it, or antagonizing it with a stick. Never mind that when the snake reacts exactly as can be expected, the fatal jab of the forked tongue will kill not just the selfishly reckless who were determined to incite it, but the rest of us as well.

As an aside, the reason I noted that McCain/Palin presence in what is by far a largely supportive Obama community, is because this is ‘move-in’ weekend for the start of a new academic year in this college community. Who’s to say where in the State (CA) they had come from, to drop off the entering student? Who’s to say whether or not the entering student will eventually learn enough (through exposure to different mindsets and world views present in an academic environment?) We can only hope.

The same must hold (the hope – dare I say ‘faith’) for the obvious in terms of a racism that still prevails in the nation, supported by numbers/polls that indicate a certain percentage of the population will simply never vote for a black man or woman for president. That’s a given, and it always has been. The difference is that the percentage is far lower than what it would have been 10, 20, or 30 years ago. So for now, I’m not willing to place a great deal of importance on the polls, to tell us anything that we didn’t already know. PRE-Polls cannot (and do not) project as well as they have in the past, because of what someone else has mentioned before….too much of the voting population isn’t even polled. Those who have long ago abandoned land (phone) lines for cell phones are not reached via polls, which just means that researching techniques in this respect haven’t caught up with the technology or the drastic change in demographics.
Here again, a certain measure of ‘faith’ is required, and I don’t mean faith in god, because I’m an agnostic. I mean faith is our fellow humans.

kath--I just feel bad about my trees.

But , I think that for those with indoor plumbing (and toilet with no water in them), it could need more of a fix than lighting candles.

pc run on candles?

Thanks David Sirota.  I really haven’t followed YOUR specific politics regarding EVERY factor which affects the majority of America.  That said, you make some excellent points which I’d like to emphasis, and add a few others.

“instead of endorsing forceful re-regulation months ago when the financial meltdown commenced, Obama responded with a vague white paper that not only offered few hard-hitting prescriptions but denigrated key Depression-era regulations.”

“despite slipping in the industrial heartland, Obama has muted his criticism of NAFTA. Indeed, one Obama adviser last week called trade only “an issue of symbolic importance.”

“Obama has raised $9.8 million from investment houses (more than McCain). For economic advice, he relies on people like Robert Rubin—the NAFTA architect who gutted market regulations as Bill Clinton’s treasury secretary”

“In a recent New York Times interview, Obama himself reiterated his loyalty to free-market fundamentalism, even as it birthed the current emergency.”

This from the LA Times:
““First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.” (My question, who do these “programs” really “work” for Obama..?)

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/02/nation/na-campaign2

>> This IS funding religion, and it started with that “stalwart” of dem values CLINTON, and was only enhanced by Bush.  Traitors, all of them.  This ABSOLUTELY undermines the church and state premise of the constitution, of course this bunch as undermined just about everything else so I guess they figure.... what the hell.

From “Pam’s House Blend”
“Senator Obama, if a religious institution proselytizes with one hand, and receives federal money with the other hand, how can you seriously posit that institution is not “using taxpayer funds to proselytize” ?

Money is money, and taxpayer funds are funds that religious institutions would not have otherwise.  Whether they rob Peter to pay Paul and use funds they would not otherwise have to do proselytizing they would not have had the money to do otherwise, does that matter?  You’re still giving money to people from the taxpayers.

On the same plane, we have Senator Obama assuring us that no federal money will be used to fund hiring-and-firing discrimination.  In other words, programs that have taxpayer funding may not discriminate.  But, how is this to be remotely true, if it is a bucketing issue?

In other words, say I am a religious organization and have $4000 (we’ll keep the amounts here small).  Currently, I use all $4000 to feed the needy.  And within that program, I refuse to hire homosexuals.

Now the government gives me $4000 with the stipulation that I may not discriminate in that program.

So I start another program and take the original $4000 (that I no longer have to use to fund program A) to start program B, which continues to discriminate on sexual orientation and religion.  PLUS I add another $1000 to Program B and cut Program A to using only $3000 of the federal funding.

This is not the federal government using taxpayer money to discriminate?  How is that more than a fig leaf?”

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5982

>> Obama/McCain corporate cronies.  In fact, they’re magicians too, just watch YOUR dollars disappear....

I think that soldiers who intentionaly kill civilians shoudl be tried for war crimes/murder, too.

I only hope that you would extend theat same judgement to the guys who planned and never bled for this capitalistic, murder bullshit.

My point was , NOT AT ALL, to excuse anyone’s war crimes or murder. I just think that the ISSUE of calling McCain war criminal is a LOSER issue for Dems.Maybe its not.It reminds me of what was done to Kerry. Kerry’s story was different. But, to lay blame on a bunch of poor guys who were drafted ( and i can guarantee you some of then wil take it that way--even though most do not support McCain)while “taking impeachment off the table for Bush” is just not going to go down very well.

But there are so many things to criticize McCain about (de-regulations, wanting to continue the war, his horrible health care plan, etc). , WHY focus on an issue that may turn off alot of voters?? I probaly couldve gotten out of the draft, if I were of that age. I couldve gone to colege sooner than I did. But, many could not.Of course, women were not drafted then--woudl they be now? Lets hope not to find out.

True, McCain is not one--but I worked with guys who were drafted. That is not the case today. They did not know what they were in for. McCain did--or shoudl have.But, its still a bad issue. As one who knows a bunch of vets--just trust me on this one.

I just thought maybe Obamas supporters wanted him to win, is all. Never mind.

Jim C--I guess I got lucky, althugh I didnt realize it at the time. I just didnt realize how bad it was.

I lost electric (off and on--it was wierd) for about 2 hrs. Then, elec., pc, tv, (I tested them all ) came back. We havent had a prob. since, but I know alot of peoel stil do have no power! Alot of nursing hoems and food banks, also!!

I lost 1 1/2 trees--I say that because, now, I have to decide whether the, about 200 year old tree in my yard is a threat to mine or my neighbor’s houses.(house is from 1923)I thought it was healthy. It just “broke”.!! The other one--I knew only its roots were halthy--its hollow--!! It still provided home for some city animals, and some shade.-but what’s left is going to have to go.

I read about people with no power--still!!. At least the weather is cooler. But, the water thing woudl drive me crazy!

At present , just what an Obama presidency would be like is unknown . But FDR didn’t campaign like he governed either . One can only hope that he will be a plesant surprise , that is if he can get elected . I heard about a poll on the radio today that found 30% of democrats and about the same number of undecided voters are hesitent to vote for a black man . This attitude seems to be becoming more prevelent as we go along . Another thing that gives me pause is his economic team is heavy with university of chicago people , the home of very conservative views , does the name Milton Friedman ring a bell ? I have a friend who recieved an economics degree from there and he is simply steeped in supply side garbage . But since we have basicly two choices he is far and away a better choice than the team of fossil and bimbo , good god , what a thought . The supreme court is in the balance also , can you imagine a mccain / palin pick ? If palin ever got a shot you could no doubt find her nominee in her high school year book , or maybe tad , I heard he went to court once , in her world that makes him qualified . KDelphi , did you lose power ? If so for how long , I just got mine back yesterday . I also had a pole at work fall on my car hood because of the the wind , it hit mine and two other cars . Great week , nothing like bathing in a bucket , sitting in the dark , no TV , no computor , no nothing , to make one appreciate electricity .

@ kath cantarella;

You raise an interesting point; 6 years for murder hardly seems enough.

You say, “Murder is murder and there will always be a reckoning.”

Only if you believe in an after life and I don’t.  One can always hope there is an epiphany on the part of the guilty party; thereby causing life long guilt and suffering.  As for McCain; I doubt it.

kath--so we should atry all US Troops for murder? All the ones now are volunteers. I still think that it is a losing strategy, but, maybe they’ll vote for Obama from Military Prison.

the deceivers have deceived the believers into thinking that they are indeed something that they are not by keeping LIES & deception; misdirection, distraction; making them THINK it is THIS or communism; it is NOT; exploiting, victimizing, deliberately lying, robbing, stealing, claiming “truth is relavative” meaning whatever they say is “truth” and you should believe it; the Good Lord gave you a BRAIN, the HOLY SPIRIT, who is to guide you into TRUTH; how then are you so GULLIBLE? to WANT to go to war to force OTHERS into the same SLAVERY you are in? WHY do folks in Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark & all kinds of other countries have FAR MORE for their citizens? Gosh, their countries even HONOR their promises to their citizens! NOT the USA! Does God love liars? Babies being killed by TOXINS deliberately put in your home to KILL, STEAL your health, Steal your wealth (cost of meds 600,000) times cost: and do the greatest harm to the fullest extent to its CITIZENS? and you fill THIS should be FORCED onto citizens in other countries???? Using the Word of God they PUT in your EYES and in your EARS LIES, DECEIT, DECEPTION, MISDIRECTION, always blaming someone for THEIR own dastardly deeds; and YOU eat it up hook line & sinker! SHAME on you Christians! and all other folks who do not BOTHER to see that robbery lies theft & deceit is WRONG for any country to abuse it’s citizens; THIS is the USA; shame on the politicians who are prostitutes: give me this $ & I will do THIS; SHAME on Americans for being taken in by such tricks! When the man pumping my gas looks at me & says: last time it was the Jews: it is TIME to get a CLUE!

Be wary of short memories or things we may have missed. This inside analysis is based partially on a speech delivered by Barack Obama back in March.

“..Bankers “may or may not agree with a position” taken by Sen. Obama, “but they can be assured that he will have an understanding of the costs and benefits of any particular approach,” the adviser said.

To illustrate the point, he cited a March 27 speech at New York’s Cooper Union in which Sen. Obama spoke at length about reforming the patchwork of financial regulation. The speech, delivered four days before the Treasury Department released its blueprint for reform, went further in some areas than the administration did.

For instance, Sen. Obama proposed giving the Federal Reserve Board clear supervisory authority over any institution that borrows from the central bank, extending its capital and liquidity rules to investment banks. The Treasury plan, by contrast, would establish the central bank more as a monitor of market stability than as a direct supervisor.

Sen. Obama also would create a public-private commission of experts to warn Congress and the White House about emerging systemic risks in the markets.

The Treasury blueprint “is thinnest on some of the substantive regulatory issues,” Prof. Tarullo said. “It doesn’t talk at all about capital and liquidity regulation, which are at the heart of the problem,” and it “appears not to contemplate ongoing regulation of systemically important” nonbanks. “There’s an implication that somehow you can just have monitoring of some sort.”

Sen. Obama has advocated having the United States adopt the Basel II international capital standards, an unusual topic for a campaign speech but an area of expertise for Prof. Tarullo.

“The fact that he focused” on regulatory reform and “talked about things that one normally doesn’t see presidential candidates talk about reflects his commitment toward change” in the regulatory system, the adviser said. “I frequently find, and not just with bankers but with people in industry generally, that one of their biggest concerns is that the position they’re in in the markets is not understood by regulators or political figures or others. As I have learned with Sen. Obama … he is both an incredibly voracious consumer of information about all things, including the economy, and a very quick study.”

Prof. Tarullo also discussed what Sen. Obama has not said; to ensure credit does not dry up, the candidate has been careful to advocate a moderate approach to imposing higher capital standards on nonbanks…

More at the link:

http://www.onwallstreet.com/asset/article/602011/obama -and-regulation-insiders-perspective.html

Here’s more:

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/March_08_Obama_Urged _Regulation_in_wake_of_Mortgage_Crisis

I havent heard that “doobee do’ thing since my dad had it on a t-shirt about 20 yrs ago! LOL Thought it was dead.

What is a “minimalist populist agent of change”? Would they be for minimal popular change?

Anarcissie,

Don’t forget their embracing love of hate.

I don’t think Obama is allowed to present a strong or fundamental criticism of the existing system.  Nor do I think he wants to—it is pretty clear he is a conservative, and a rather cautious one at that.  His strategy, then, must be to hope the Republicans destroy themselves.  Maybe that will happen; I notice Palin has begun to flap around on the issue of holy war, so important to her fundamentalist fans’ love of death and destruction.

Addendum;
On second thought a pair of hand puppets would be just fine.  After all, they don’t really decide anything; the “Big” bosses do all of that.

Helping people who have lost their homes is not on the agenda.  Only the poeple at the top will get any help from McCain or Obama.  Obama’s kind of people are those who can pay $28,000 for dinner.

It’s hard not to smile after watching McCain say all of the wrong things at exactly the wrong time, or is it, exactly the right time?  Whatever.  With Tweedledee and Tweedledum at the helm on the republican side; Obama should be able to just glide into the White house.  But, with the ever uninformed, fundamentalist Christian, racist, and generally clueless citizens; he will have to work his ass off to win this election.  To be is to do; to do is to be; doobee, doobee, doobee!