Sepharad--Your defense of Zionist oppression is the usaal one intended for Americ;an liberals and progressives; you are for a Palistinian state, against Israeli oppression, etc.  Most of the Israeli power system adopts this ideological posture while increasing settler occupation, torturing and murdering Palestinians, starving Palistinain children, and increasing support for ethnic cleansing--called Transfer.

You operatively support Aipac and Likud policies while assuaging liberal, and your own, guilt for unjustifiable oppression. There is no opposition from the Jewish community that vigorously attacks Aipac and the Licud option of Transfer, which current US policy leads to.  You support Israeli oppression in the same way that the Dems support US power oppression, with liberal and progressive bullshit.  fortunately, this is increasingly less effective with the American people.

Re: Sepharad, September 19 at 11:44 pm 1 of 2

• “Cyrena—The French role in Dimona and much more in one place is probably most accessible in Seymour Hersch’s “The Sampson Option” (Random House, NY, 1991). ..Actually, my major concern at the moment is not Israel but whether lichen & Outraged are right re the pointlessness of voting for Obama as he rejected Nader’s offer to come aboard and is sounding more and more like just another center-right pol. I’ve resisted their conclusions, but they may be right in saying it’ll take a large, angry social reform movement to make any substantive changes in our government.”
Sepharad,

Thank you so very much for your informative response. I’m particularly appreciative of the reference, since I’m a very appreciative consumer of Seymour Hersch’s work. (IOW, I’m inclined to generally trust his research and analysis, and I do in fact make it a point to look for his take on most of what I know I don’t have access to myself). I’ve NOT read “The Sampson Option” however, and so I will.

I also appreciate the bulk of your most recent post to others, since you convey much of what I’ve always known myself, specifically in terms of what the Israeli PEOPLE actually think, feel, and believe is best for themselves and their state, as opposed to what we see from the actions of the Israeli government. HOWEVER, MOST AMERICANS are simply NOT aware of things like the fact that ALL Israelis serve in the IDF, and that this is simply a ‘given’, based on an ideology that most Americans simply cannot and do not understand. One ‘clue’ here, is the seemingly righteous and indignant distain for the fact that so called politico’s are allegedly calling for a draft here in the US. (as evidenced by the post from Folktruther). But, he/she is not alone in such indignation, DESPITE the fact that the US Constitution CLEARLY references ‘conscription’ within its blue print. What country DOESN’T have a military, and how exactly does any country come up with one?

But I digress. In respect to the concerns displayed by both Outraged and lichen, mine are not the same as yours, and for probably different reasons. One is the irony of the fact that it has been only during the past few months, that Outraged has turned so bitterly against Obama, and some of the rationale has been suspect in my opinion, because unlike the recent appearance of lichen, Outraged has posted here for a very long time, (at least as long or longer than I have and that’s nearly 2 years) and has always been a pragmatic and reasonable thinker. And while there have been the ostensible reasons posted here, for her switched allegiance from Obama to Nader, (the FISA vote and the so-called faith based initiative proposals which are no different than the multiple NGO’s that Nader has established, or the many peace groups that you reference yourself), the history seems to point to the speech that Obama made to AIPAC, and what she (and many) considered to be a pandering to the Israel lobby.

To be continued

2 of 2 re: By Sepharad, September 19 at 11:44 pm

In fact, I was HIGHLY criticized/attacked right here on this site, and for an extended period of time when I attempted to explain the pragmatism and what I believed Obama to be attempting to accomplish from that address, even while I disapproved of parts of it myself. So the ‘connection’ that I see to the support of Nader, (and even McKinney to a lesser degree) is their longstanding and well known criticism of Israel. THAT is a cornerstone of the Nader campaign, and while I find some elements of validity in that, I simply don’t believe that to be the only reason to vote for him. It’s simply more of the same of voting *against* one candidate rather than voting *for* another.

There is nothing to be gained from that, and I would reference Folktruther’s post @By Folktruther, September 19 at 6:52pm, where he writes this:

• “However Aipac and the US media take this to mean the destruction of the Israeli PEOPLE, setting of the fears of the Jewish population.  The distinction between the power system and the people has been purposely obscured and conflated. …The most destructive aspect of Israel is its partial hijacking of US foreign and domestic policy.  This is most publically visible in its pressure to have the US attack Iran, and insane,immoral and disastrous act.”

I agree with folktruther 100% in his assessment here, but I also know that Obama recognizes that as well.

Meantime, the suggestion that *Obama* has refused to get onboard with *Nader* reflects more of the same cruel irony. Based on my perception, it is NADER who refuses to ‘get on board’ with anybody else. Just a quick look at history will clearly bear this out.

At any rate, I already see a large and in some cases angry social movement/revolution to elect Obama. Now maybe that’s because I’m in a mostly younger and environment in the West, where we have always been more focused on progressive ideals. I can’t provide any lengthy analysis of that, but it’s what I see in my own State (California) and my own immediate environment. In fact, as I sit here blogging, the folks from the Santa Barbara chapter of the effort to elect Obama are all over the place, making sure that people are registered to vote, and signing up volunteers at the same time.

The apartheid Israel power system does NOT have the right to exist.  It should be DESTROYED, as South Africa’s was.  However Aipac and the US media take this to mean the destruction of the Israeli PEOPLE,
setting of the fears of the Jewish population.  The distinction between the power system and the people has been purposely obscured and conflated.

The most destructive aspect of Israel is its partial hijacking of US foreign and domestic policy.  This is most publically visible in its pressure to have the US attack Iran, and insane,immoral and disastrous act.

Aipac also backed Jane Harman to sponsor the thought control bill, which would gut the internet of free criticism.  The bill passed the House 400+ to 6: I would guess they are waiting until after the election for the Senate to pass it.

By Sepharad, September 19 at 12:30 pm #

You view is definitely pro Israel but I would argue that it is pro American.

You stated:

“I also believe that we should do much better taking care of our people who are old, sick, poor—and especially returning vets and their families. (That’s probably something else that you’d dispute.)”

I believe the billions given Israel and other nations can be better served in the VA hospitals here in America. I am a former US Marine combat vet and I do know the price, mentally and physically that wars cost firsthand.

Israel does nothing but isolate America in the court of world public opinion by its mistreatment of their minorities and provocative rhetoric against its neighbors(if they can do it to one they can do it to all). 

The continual spying against the U.S. at all levels of the military and government doesn’t help their case with me either.

Re: By Sepharad, September 19 at 12:30 pm

“Oh—whatever nuclear technology the Israelis have or do not have, it all came initially from the French but very discreetly: the French had their colonies in that region as well as King Oil to consider. I don’t think there is a country in the first world that has not sold arms to one side or the other, sometimes both, in the Middle East.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sepharad,

Setting aside the FACT that we *DO KNOW* that Israel maintains an impressive nuclear arsenal (clearly enough to wipe out the entire region) and has for over 30 years, this is the first and only time that I’ve ever heard that ‘it all came initially from the French’, discreetly or otherwise.

That said, I’m overwhelmingly interested in ‘reading up’ on such claims. Is there someplace you might direct me/us to learn more of this? I’d be most appreciative.

On a slightly different note, do you really suspect that Israel could or would ever have a place on the UN Security Council????? I mean, REALLY!!! I agree that Sudan certainly isn’t the poster country for Human Rights, but can we be reasonable here? Israel maintains a nuclear arsenal and totally avoids any oversight of it since they refuse to sign on to the NPT. Then there’s that issue with Palestine. Remember them? Gaza? The West Bank?

You talk a lot about your conviction to Israel’s ‘right to exist’. I’m wondering if that isn’t a bit of a red herring, seeing as how Patrick Henry has repeated what most American’s (who even have a clue) also agree to. MOST of us believe that Israel has a right to exist!!! Multiple international documents, agreements, etc, etc, provide for Israel’s right to exist, (though it’s interesting that they won’t create a Constitution) so THAT isn’t the argument.

No, the argument is whether or not Israel ‘has the right’ to practice genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. THAT is the question, and that’s what’s been the question since the inception of Israel as a Zionist State. Do they have THAT right?

The rest of the International Community, (and all of the laws, treaties, conventions, etc) make it very clear that they DO NOT! Those agreements, treaties, conventions, are as clear as the paperwork that gives Israel the right to exist. So that’s the problem, if you get my point. Do you get the contradiction there?

And of course there’s Patrick Henry’s concern that is obvious to the rest of us as well...What about Israel’s right to exist also obligates the US taxpayers to support them with billions of our dollars?

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/12005209 1/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Here you go, Frank. I could list many more.(I did--Haley, Arieti, Laing, etc.) Perhaps you have had experiences with a different population.

BTW--If “our” mh system is so great, why do 33,000 people commit suicide every year.

Jay Haley, Milton Ericksson--brief systemic therapy / paradoxical intention.

Surely youve heard of it, Frank. Maybe if we had more community mental health centers, that were properly funded--suicide would not be such a problem.

I think that forced meds, ECT etc. are violent and immoral (unless someone is a danger to somone else)

Of course, you can just hospitalize someone, and when their insurance runs out--you can refer them to someone like me,if they are stil able to communicate when you guys are done medicating and isolating them.

I was answering a question as to psyhology as a tool to changing the govt/systems. I said that they should not be left alone. I indicated that you had to know the client.

I also believe in the dignity of risk. It is that persons’ life, you know. Not yours. You do all you can. But, if it is continuously threatened, with the same people, who are your clients (your govt??) , and you do the same thing--did it ever occur to you that youre enabling them? Maybe you would do better to try to find out why they feel that they have to threaten suicide for you to show that you care about them.

Maybe you were able to hospitalize your clients (I’m satil not sure that it is usually warranted, nor helpful) When you have someone who has already been intstitutionalized, just try to get them hospitalized. ON Medicaid. Or just turn them over to someone who gets paid less.

Hospitalizing people is infantalizing them. You make lifetime clients. But not very effective human beings.

them.

Frank Cajon-"we have the best mental health system on earth”

Really?  Why are all those people on the streets talking to themselves?  How come returning soldiers are not treated for stress syndromes?  If our mental health systems are so good, why is their so much drug abuse?

Or by “we” do you mean the small fraction of the professional and ruling class that can afford the fees of therapists.

I hope your kidneys are better too, but frankly, Frank, you seem to have lost contact with political and social reality.  I suggest you see a good non-professional.

By Sepharad, September 18 at 9:41 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Thank you for that concise background from your obvious pro Israel perspective.

Our government often reacts on flimsy evidence if not fabricated.

I guess selling armaments in that part of the world is a reason to be a cause celebre.

Frank Cajone,

I’m glad you’re back. Sorry to hear about the kidney surgery, but I’m assuming that it went well, and that’s always good.

I have a dear friend who underwent kidney surgery last month. It was to provide a kidney to his brother, who needed it. Both are recovering well.

Speedy recovery to you too.

KD: While I was away (having kidney surgery), I note that you made a post about some traveling lecturer’s posit on how to handle an individual with suicidal ideation, and I am feeling bad enough that it touches a nerve.
I may and probably by the circumstances must, not having any interest in his book, be taking those remarks out of context, but he is dangerously uninformed about the subject and cavalier about it as well. And, I presume, has never had a real live person make a real suicide threat to him. A treatment therapist on an outpatient treatment ward in a typical urban city or county may encounter ten in a day. And must handle every one as if it is a matter of life and death, because it very well may be.
Last year, over 33,000 people took their own lives in the US; that is over two thirds as many that died in all types of transportation accidents (including auto) combined. We have one of the best mental health systems on earth (though it is low on the guns and butter list of government and private priorities of this decade) but it is trumped in many ways by the highest handgun ownership per capita and the highest drug abuse statistics. Let’s just say that this is an area best left for experts and your author isn’t one, and his bravura is bullshit and does far more harm than good.

By Sepharad, September 17 at 3:50 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

Don’t look now but your racist banter is showing.

I support Israels right to exist as I do Palestine.  I just don’t want one dollar of my taxpayer money to pay for this semite family feud.  Moreover, I want all dual nationals out of the US government.

As always, you use the old ADL tactic of lumping Israel with jews everywhere, so criticism against one is inextricably linked to criticism against all.

On an earlier post you stated:

“From a strictly Israeli perspective, if JFK was the most helpful President to Israel, using good criteria, good judgment and standing behind country for the right reasons, I believe George Bush has been the worst President”

Actually JFK was on Israels’ ass for contructing Dimona and wanted them to come clean on nuclear material and open up for inspection.... to this day they haven’t.  Name one thing which JFK did that caused him to be a celebrity there.

cyrena--youre absolutely right.

I’m afraid your right, KDelphi, as class inequality increases and things get worse for the general population, the possiblity of resolving things peacefully gets more remote.  The American power system, as people try to take back power, is likely to treated the American population the way it has treated Iraqi’s, Palestinians and Afghans.  It has already started to do so and both parties support it.

By KDelphi, September 15 at 4:45 pm #

• “cyrena--is someone standing with a gun to your head , making you read my posts or refer to them? I hope not. HOw did I kow that it wouldnt be Frank’s last post? Dont make it your last one. This site is full of peole diagnosing each other. I just dont like to see .person who’s professional use it to try to make other peopleok like they dont know anything. ….”

~~~~~
KDelphi,

What the hell are you talking about? Does this actually refer or relate to something that you’ve written? It doesn’t have anything to do with what I’ve written. And, while your problem(s) may be unfortunate, and while I may have a limited measure of empathy for you, when you write stuff out of the blue like this, it just confirms that you’re out of your fucking mind, and apparently simply have no life outside of truthdig or common dreams. (I hear you post all over the place there are well, but I’ve not had time to really get into any other site.) Because, well…I DO have a life.

Maybe you should try to get one.

Folk--I think youre talking about Erickson. Milton Erickson.

Folktruther--I’m not sure. I’m not that knowledgable about politics, as a science. Let me look at it from the angle I understand better.

Joel Bergman in “Fishing for Barracuda” had some of thiose ideas. For example, if a client comes in every week and says “I think I’m just going to kill myself”, if youve already tried the “If you just want to have coffee for a few minutse tonight, instead of being alone--why dont you just say so” approach, you say, “That is blackmail. It is a friday. When you sisgned on for thaerapy, you gave me the names of three kin and friends. If you insist on saying that, I will have to put out a 24-hr suicuide watch. Your mother, best friend, etc. wil have to promise to stay with you {this usualy does it!! lol} all the time, until you are no longer suicidal. Otherwise, I wil have to hospitalize you or we wil sit right here and not speak. I dont want to upset you. I must have been pushing you too hard”

Of course, that is a little estreme, but, if someone just keeps saying it, and you spend al weekend with your beeper on, and then they just really want company, then, of course, they wil NOT want to spend 24 hrs a day with their (whoever) and wil admit it, and you can go about discussing how they can create, (and you can help them create) a more healthy way of getting attention and more healthy realtionships with people. Some think that this is risky, but you cant hospitalize people for what they might do. It’s known as systemic therapy (that might be what youre talking abvout)or paradoxical intention.

Clients get “institutionalized” , when theyve been hospitalized too long, , or if just thrown into the communsity, go into isolation, and some think that that is the only way to get attention.It is understandable. People feel that they must maintain the homeostasis- the “parent” of the “group” uses “agents” who defend the “parent” and the status quo.(party??)As everyone knows, change is painful--its evolutinary. If youre not dying, your body pretty much says “Why change?”, even if it might be for the better.

Bergman was snorkeling in the Red Sea, when he asked if the baracuda would attack him. his friend replied, “Only if you show fear.” (In systems theory, you change one single part of the whole--all the parts must change to accomodate it. Sometimes its doesnt matter that much WHAT you change.) I could relate to this, as I used to dive where there were alot of barracudas. If they approach, you back up--they chase. If you go forward to meet them--they back off.

I suppose within a govt system, you need to change something--it almost dosent matter what, at first. It will upset the system, the old guard will moan, and it wil be painful. But things will never change if you go along in the same manner. Does that make sense? You also cannot change a person within the system without a paradigm shift--If you only discuss change and dont demand or expect it, you merely stablize the system.(The system is “saying”, “Is this good enough?") You have to de-stalblilize it , or there is never enough motivation to change. This is unlike the Shock Doctrine, in that, the persons experiencing the change, the ones most vulnerable, are suported by those withn the system, as it changes. Pardon, but, to each his need.

Someone said it better--"What is of all things most yielding, can overcome that which is most hard.

That the yielding conquers the resistant and the soft conquers the hard is a fact known by all men, yet utilized by none...” Lao Tzu

Probably alot more than you wanted to know or hear. But, as things get rougher for hte average person, the chance of changing it without alot of blood, just gets more and more remote. If this govt wants to preserve capitalism , in any form, including socialized or regulated, it had better act soon, and with more than platitudes.

You know, KDelphi, there was a psychitrist-I’ll eventually think of his name- about a half century ago who had a great deal of success in treating schizophrenics, which as you probably know are not usually amenable to talk therapy.  He had a whiny, unpleasant voice and would NAG his patients to reality.

If a patient said he was going to kill himself he would NAG them, “Well, why aren’t you doing it, why are you just lying there, etc, etc.” (they were institutionalized and constantly watched.)

In order to get away from that voice, they began to prefer reality.  I’ve often wondered if this could be used as a political technique.

R. D. Laing, Jay Haley (his short-term therapy--I figured it was a gimmick to get people out of therapy early save moneyuntil I took a class from a professor that pacticed it) and Silvano Arieti’s “Interpretation of Schizophrenia”.

There is also a place in Vermont (The House--I visited it) that practicse some Laing’s old Kingdom Hall mileiu therapy. (Burlington)

Joel Bergman’s “Fishing for Barracuda” is good--and really funny.

Just thought I’d throw in som eof my favorite authors, since Laing was mentioned.

I like the concept of ‘willful ignorance’, Crimes. The mainstream media maintains a public attitude of willful ignorance about those truths that would subvert the mainsteam American ideology.  Noam Chomsky and Alexander Cockburn are leftists who exemplify it, also subscribing to the mainstream Lonely Assassin theory, that political deaths are the result of single assassins who were lonely in their childhood.  Scheer subscribed to it implicitly in his sanitizing the FBI hounding Ivens to death.

But you shouldn’t be too hard on Frank Cajon.  He is afterall an Educated professional who identifies with his profession- there isn’t much that you can expect. The mental health profession teaches their clients to adjust to an insane power system, they’re being insane if they don’t do so.  The preconceptions of the field, with the except of deviants like Laing, is that power is always right.

That and a lack of cojones characterizes Frank Cojon, and we are trying to get him to redeem himself by a perceptive analysis of the Bushite regime.  Unlikely, true, but all sinners are captable of redemption, so I’ve been told and believe, and should be given every chance.  Hate the sin and love the sinner, insofar as we poor mortals can.

Jesus, Frank, do you know any other refrains?

IS THIS THING ON?

The question, when you explicitly bash “Truthers” is whether we do or do not know the truth about the 9/11 attacks.

I have proven repeatedly that we do not.  You have ignored every one of my posts, references and arguments in favor of your repeating the same framing over and over in Rovian fashion:

“...Israeli agents taking over planes and planning the 9/11 attacks (to me-relax, Truthers, just an opinion, and I have said it here before) resemble blogs I found on a reactionary fringe rightwing website in 2005, or the ones last year did.”

The term is “cover-up”, Frank.  Nearly 200 Israelis were arrested and detained.  The specifics are covered up.  Therefore, ergo, we do not know the truth.  Evidently this does not matter to you whatsoever (not a unique position in this climate of willful ignorance). 

“I think the facts about 9/11 are a bit fuzzy and that rational explanations for it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, and also that you can be VERY much against the current regime (I am, and will vote for Obama) and still unconvinced they are responsible for staging the attacks.”

The “current regime” which you repeatedly claim to oppose is the reason that the facts are “fuzzy.”

Not all of them are “fuzzy” by the way.  Your casual relationship with them is fuzzy.  Your outrageous “diagnoses” of people you don’t know at all is real fuzzy.  I think your claim of being a “professional” also merits the “fuzzy” label.

You know you have no response to my direct, pointed, and sourced facts.  So you obfuscate and misdirect, attempting to make this about “anti-Semitism” which you continually resurrect, exposing your lack of knowledge of the subject matter.

To you, of course, there is no need to become familiar with the issue.  Ignorance is bliss.

Seeing how you have admitted that the “facts” are “fuzzy” I take that as an admission that you don’t believe you know the full truth about the 9/11 attacks, despite belligerent posturing in the other direction.

I guess the only thing left is to explain why you don’t care to know.  That’s the point of cognitive dissonance here.  You admit your understanding of the most important event of the millenium is “fuzzy” at best, but you have no compunction pressing you to remedy the situation and demand disclosure and independent investigation into the 9/11 attacks.

Rather, you have shamefully attacked those who do stand up.  If this pattern weren’t repeated so often and in “alternative” media that should know better, it could be ignored.  Your arrogance is indicative of a sick mindset, one that would rather attack dissidents than the obvious cover-up artists responsible for this mess in the first place (’on their watch’).

Heal thyself.

http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

The Senate Hearing is not being shown on C-SPAN< so that the public can be treated to 4 hrs. of hearing GOP scream, “Drill, baby drill”. It is, however on C-SPAN.org, in case anyone is interested. It is a good hearing--I dont know if anything will happen, but it is worth a look-see, if people could take a break from Palin for a couple hrs.

cyrena--is someone standing with a gun to your head , making you read my posts or refer to them? I hope not.

HOw did I kow that it wouldnt be Frank’s last post? Dont make it your last one. This site is full of peole diagnosing each other. I just dont like to see person who’s professional use it to try to make other peopleok like they dont know anything.

I dont like it when peole use their education to explain why they cant explain exactly why they disagree. It’s like, when al else fails, just say, “Well, I should know and you dont!”

If Bolshevism, devolving into Stalism is what made “socialism” so terrible, how about not blaming socialism, but, the devolvng into Stalinism.  I dont think Bush “forgot” that a democracy “has to protect the minorities” --I dont think that he believes it has to. I , further, dont think he gives rat’s ass. I think everything in the US , including the two parties, is based on money, and not much else. But, that’s just what I see.

Feingold is having a hearing on restoring constitutional rights that Bush has screwed us out of. It wil be on C-SPAN.org (live) at 10:15 AM tomorrow. That’s EST. Just in cse anyone is interested.

Sepherad: I read your post, and decided to reply since I stirred up a bit of a nest with my comments earlier but stand by them. I know that the Truthers are very committed to the cause. I am familiar to an extent with Cyrena’s aviation background from last year, and her blogs have some insight that some of these other lack but also seem to leave the door open for another possibility. On the Zionist issue, which is a red flag here, I take the middle ground (which no one will be happy with, like last year). I recall that I was on another site dressing down the Israelis for the bombing of southern Lebanon in 2006 when I started posting here, and caught hell for being anti-Zionist myself; I think both sides in the Israel/Palestinian standoff are at fault in the long run and the US should not be arming both sides-and should be arming neither. On the other hand, the rabid theories about Israeli agents taking over planes and planning the 9/11 attacks (to me-relax, Truthers, just an opinion, and I have said it here before) resemble blogs I found on a reactionary fringe rightwing website in 2005, or the ones last year did. I think the facts about 9/11 are a bit fuzzy and that rational explanations for it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, and also that you can be VERY much against the current regime (I am, and will vote for Obama) and still unconvinced they are responsible for staging the attacks.

http://palin-presidency-comedy.blogspot.com/

The Palin interviews: Ignorance in the service of the ultra-right
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/paln-s15.shtml

the christian fundamentalists and islamists will be at war, if
only they didn’t take the rest of us down with them… oh, i forgot my jewish fundamentalist? couldnt they just all go to death valley and get it over and done with.

cyrena--thanks for the really constructive criticism!! Really!

Jack writes @ By jack, September 14 at 10:46 am, in response to this from KDelphi:

• KDelphi, September 14 at 8:08 am ---I didnt see anyone here call you those things.Could you be...um...how shall I say--"suspicious"?? It’s hard to believe you are a socialist. I am amember of SP-USA . And a mem of APA?? I had you nailed as a shrink with yur emphasis on DIAGNOSIS. I simply feel that it is innapproriate for “professionals” tp diagnose people from a few posts. Psychology should never be used as a way to alienate someone, but to help them. Anythign else is misuse.
~~~~
Jack,
I just wanted to say that with KDelphi, it’s frequently, (nearly always) impossible to be sure WHO her comments are addressed to, because she specifically avoids using any names. Sometimes you can make a good enough guess if you search through the comments, but it’s never certain. That’s just ONE of the reason that makes any dialog with her far more work than what it’s worth. You might as well be talking to a tiny hole in a huge wall, and then craning your neck to hear from whatever direction or other tiny hole the response may or may not come from. It’s exhausting to try to follow a roller coaster thought process.

Meantime, I agree with you that the piece from Dennis Kucinich is excellent, and I’ve not yet seen it posted on any other sites, though by now it may be.

Folktruther, just as an ‘aside’, I thought I’d mention that the ‘fracture’ in the membership of the APA, (in this case that stands for the Psychologists Assoc and not the Allied Pilots Assoc) is actually greater than you may realize, IOW, more than just a few members are scandalized by the use of psychologists in the worst illegality that this regime has perpetrated…torture. In fact, there is much division, and it is as contentious as you can imagine, considering the issue at the center of it. I don’t know how things are situated at this moment, but it’s been very ugly for a while.

The same in happening within the legal community in regards to all of the other law breaks. Admittedly this is more at the academic level, but has by now spilled over to think tanks, the armed forces, (many of the JAG’s) and the State Department itself. Yes, even repuglicans, and especially conservatives (real conservatives) have been repulsed by all of these illegalities.

Granted it doesn’t all hit the web, (not nearly enough of it) but it’s there.

Frank--we could never slander the “mental health profession” --Its done just fine by itself. YOu came in here and saw that people were “still paranoid” and that your “hypothesis “ (I’ll give you that)was “BAD manic..blah, blah”. I would call that--well--sortve an “unprofesional” diagnosis.

Extrapyrimidal effects are NEVER boring! They have to MOVE constanly! Never bored, just cant figure out how to be stil ever again. USSR used them for torture. CIA has used ECT.

If using PhDs at Gitmo and black sites doesnt slander APA--i dont know what does. “My political beliefs are no one’s business""--isnt that a little odd to say on a supposed left leaning blog? I read everything Dennis writes that i can find.Some people think that HE is crazy. If you come with a “professional opinion”, but, youre not diagnosing, I guess youre following the letter of thw law, but not the spirit.

Frank Cajon- your last statement is fine with me.  Don’t go away on my account.  There might have been a little misunderstnnding about calling people crazy who were sincerely trying to make sense of the senseless, but if you didn’t mean to do it, fine.  Comment like everyone else. A psych slant might be interesting and useful, since our rulers appear to be demented. I certainly am willing to forget the matter since it is resolved.

However, as to the mental health profession, I’m afraid I have strong doubts.  American psychologists, with the apporval of their professional association,the APA, are currently assisting the US power system in torturing prisoners.  Over the objections of A FEW of their colleagues, notably a pscyhologist named Price. 

Since you identify openly with the mental health profession, and psychologists are part of it, there is a question as to what part of it you identify with, the APA or the protesters of torture.

Frank Cajone, another very good example of different ways to view part of this when we break it down into parts:

• “I have some issues with some of the events surrounding the crash of AA 77 given the events a half hour earlier and have wondered if this was a result of a military screw up, unwillingness to shoot down a civvy airliner, or ?.”

The first of course, is that we have no proof that an airliner ever crashed into the Pentagon, AA 77 or any other jetliner. We know that SOMETHING hit/happened to cause the damage (and deaths) on that side of the structure that had been recently ‘fortified’, but there was never any sign of a 757 or any sign of a standard rescue response to that particular incident.

But set that element aside for a moment. To answer (or try to shed some light) on your issue, consider these two items for the list of ‘inconvenient facts’ of 9/11 that are conveniently posted here by COS.

• 5. Vice President Richard Cheney was placed in charge of anti-terrorism training and military preparedness exercises by Bush on May 8, 2001. This gave him command authority during the 9/11 attacks because as many as nine war game exercises involving military and intelligence agencies were occurring simultaneously.

• 6. The military’s “Air Piracy” regulations were rewritten on June 1st 2001 to require the “Secretary of Defense” to give “approval” for military escort aircraft in the event of a hijacking. Donald Rumsfeld gave no “approval” that day.

http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/2007/02/no-george -monbiot-these-are-facts-of.html
Now let me add to this from what has been the standard operating procedure for decades. ANY time a civilian aircraft (and its pilot(s)) finds itself in restricted (military only) airspace, for whatever the reason, it will also find itself immediately surrounded by ‘military escorts’. That was (at least until June 2001) a ‘given’. This isn’t something that I would say occurs ‘frequently’ (or did during my own 25 year career) but then ‘frequently’ is relative, and I’m hesitant to put a number on such occurrences. Maybe ‘occasionally’ would be more accurate. There are a few reasons why it might happen, and for the most part, it’s occurred with student or private aircraft pilots who have either not checked the charts or NOTAMS properly, (so they don’t realize they are in or near restricted airspace) or..they’re just hotshotting to ‘see what will happen’. One of my former flight instructors did that, (though I don’t know why he ever admitted it) and found himself in his tiny craft, surrounded by 3 military aircraft, left, right, and front. Again, it’s a ‘given’ in the protocol of US domestic aviation procedures.
But, it didn’t happen that day, and I don’t know that it should be considered a ‘screw-up’ by the military, since we now know that there were actually 15 War Games/Terror Drills taking place on 9/11. The resources for all of these drills were drawn from the resources that would have otherwise responded to any activity (like highjacking) in the Northeast Corridor. At least some of these drills involved moving “fighter planes to Northern Canada and Alaska, with introduced fake radar blips on the screens of military personnel and which deployed civilian and military aircraft in the guise of highjacked airliners.” (9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Tarpley, 2005,2006)

More later…

Frank:

“ If you don’t agree, fine, just don’t slander me or the mental health profession because I am not a part of the Truth Movement. “

Who slandered who first, Frank?  It was you.  Goodbye, good riddance, whatever. 

But, you’re on some shaky ground playing the victim after your first ignorant attacks on patriotic Americans who disagree over your ignorant non-analysis of the 9/11 attacks.

There’s no need for you to join a “movement” in order to admit that you do not know the truth, and there is indeed a cover up.  I have been proving this for 6 years now, and trust me you will not win any debate on the point.

The US senate admits that “foreign governments” were invol