Since I have a little time at the moment, if I may Outraged, I will offer some thoughts about the criticism leveled by OzarkMichael.  I assure you I think you are quite capable of a meaningful reply and I expect you will give one.

An easy trap we too often set for ourselves is to offer opinions instead of demonstrable facts.  It is a common error and is more often than not offered on forums such as this one.  Dogmatic statements without explicit references becomes opinion.  Opinions are subjective and therefore have no basis for belief by anyone other than the one who made them and those beliefs may be held completely without any proof.  It is apparent that you need to tighten and sharpen up your argument.  I am not implying at all that your bold argument is false.  I sense an illumination of truth, albeit shining dimly, through your statements.  However, it does not give evidence to its truth.  To make any insight effective, it is crucial that every statement made has logical validity and truthful support.  Or one must admit to offering only one’s opinion.  There is no argument against an opinion.  But there is big reason to doubt what is unsupported presentation of truth, in comparisons or any other kinds of statements.

The famous scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins recently argued that Islam is importing creationist theories into this country (USA).  See August 5, 2008 Fiona Macrae article at MailOnline
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041089/Atheis t-Richard-Dawkins-blames-Muslims-importing-creationism-clas srooms.html

While I highly appreciate Professor Dawkins, and while his thesis most likely is correct, the article does not give explicit evidential support for that statement.

Interestingly enough in this article, he also compares this effort of the Islamists to Christian creationists that actually has had a great deal of publicity given to this religious group’s efforts to force religion-based creationism as a viable explanation of the creation of the world.  The implication of truth is given but no specific reference offered that supports the implication.  This, for critical thinkers, undermines Dawkins’ entire argument.

Mrs. Palin’s statements about her intention to force creationism into schools also shall have to be cited as to where and when.  That is not to say she did not say that.  It is just that to make the comparison argument worthy of attention, information that can be verified must be offered.

This is just one small illustration of what is at stake.  If he is to be believed, the other points where Outraged compared Palin’s and Islamist fundamentalism about reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God’s will and climate change would also have to be provided with provable examples.  That is not to say those examples do not exist.

Begging your pardon, Jezekah, but we HAD an honest candidate in Ron Paul --- but his following was few and far between. I do believe, though, that in the coming years, the people will rue the day they didn’t vote for him.

Paolo, we must agree to disagree. I plan to vote for Cynthis McKinney, as I feel she’s the most determinedly antiwar of the third-party candidates. I haven’t voted for either of the wings of the War Party since 1996; had Ron Paul been the Repub candidate this year, I’d have voted for him.

Back in 1956, Murray Rothbard wrote, “I am getting more and more convinced that the war-peace question is the key to the whole libertarian business.” As Bob Barr is not antiwar enough to suit me, therefore I’m not voting LP this November, as I did the last couple of elections.

Folktruther--I wouldnt disagree with most of that. I’d write a longer answer, but, personal stuff. Thanks for answering without jumpping.

from outraged’s post: “But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers. On censorship, the teaching of creationism in schools, reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God’s will and climate change, Palin agrees with Hamas and Saudi rather than supporting tolerance and democratic precepts. What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.”

my comment: outraged, I know it seems to buttress your belief system but the above quote brings up some comparisons and issues that are not helpful to your argument. Do you really endorse the statements in that paragraph above?  Your independent rational mind… does it really give its assent to the notion that the conclusion in the paragraph was well proven?

Or is the conclusion actually a ‘faith’ statement which you need to be ‘true’? (I know you dont like that word faith. OK, lets not say ‘faith’. Lets say its a prejudice instead. Because the conclusion was not proven… but you believe it anyway. I dont know what other word to use for it.

Outraged, be more critical of those who seem to agree with you. Read the quote again. Are facts present? Does the conclusion follow from them? Is it a good argument?

An atheist ought to reason at the highest level they can. You can do better than the logic in that paragraph. Am I being hard on you? Well, I would not accept such weak reasoning from myself or a fellow Christian either.

Or maybe the whole thing is just a joke, a sort of intellectual hit and run?

Leefeller, you have completely exonerated yourself on media and propaganda.  References are worthy of belief if they are reliable.  Reliability of references depends on their facticity, that is, how much or how often they cohere or correspond to the truth.  What the truth is again, has more to do with the odds of their being true since absolute truth is not possible to acquire.  But you do have a point that sometimes it just doesn’t matter because there is a trading of even that reliable truth for what one wants to believe.  Bertrand Russell said once “Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.”

Paolo, using assbackwards logic is interesting.  A negativa is what it can be called in Latin, or an infitialis argument, or argumentation adversus.  Do you really think your really obtuse argument of not voting gives the right to complain is rational and that voting extinguishes that right?  And as for truth, wazzat?  What kind of fools do you think you are dealing with?  Are you some adolescent wanna be philosopher?  There really is not a tacit agreement to abide by majority rules without complaint. The right to do so is never surrendered regardless of what Paul_GA thinks.  One can vote or not vote and still complain, or not unless you think you live in a completely suppresive country and to say that it is would be the height of hyperbole. Even if the press is owned by corporations and protesters get thrown in jail and beaten to a bloody pulp.  Complaining can be done in the privacy of an outhouse, or even a confessional.  BTW:  Why do you think the system offers no ‘real’ choices?  What exactly is unjust about our system?  And what does it really matter if winners can crow about a ‘mandate?” As Leonard Cohen sings, “Everybody knows” it is a crock of sh*t.  But we do our best with the cards that are dealt.

If I can interupt to answer your post, KDelphi, yeah, you’re right, China is a form of capitalism, workers are being exploited, peasants being dipossessed by land developers, ninorities like the Uigars and Tibetans discriminated against, etc.

And China is a poor country per capita which will not be as wealthy as the present US for decades. 

However.

The income of the Chinese population is increasing from a very low base by about an incredible 10% a year, and China is industrializing not only itself but the entire third world to the extent it can.  Especially Asia where 60% of earthpeople live.  One of the reason that the US went into a military mode is that it can’t compete with this new form of centralized capitalism.

A lot of the people of the world are starving and the children grow up stunted, diseased and ignorant until they are industrialized.  This industrailization of the third world has been PREVENTED by Western imperialism, and the Chinese are fostering third world growth, for their own self interest.  It’s a horrible process but it has to be done and the Chinese are leading it.  This is what the American learned and mass media conceal, that China,with all its faults, is a progressive force in the world.

Earthperson socialism would then be on the agenda after a few decades when this world industrialization is advanced.  Unless you can think of way to help initiate it in the developed countries.

She,

Last post was response to your previous post on msm and propaganda.

Okay, instead of saying the news is propaganda, not wanting to deal with an absolutism, some of the news is propaganda, especially if it does not support my premise or opinion.  It is far safer to say very little of the msm is objective, so how about, most of the news is not unbiased news.  Example: Fox news seems to support the right neo-con agenda, at least from the little I have watched without gagging.  Problem compounded, is maybe the news is not really the news at all, but commentary agendas or back to propagandized programing.  So news may not really be news?

Large parts of the msm are manipulated to support segments of the population, maybe very much like religion.

Many people are busy from day to day survival, so digging, even Truth Digging may not be in the scope of the majority of the populace. Some of us here may be a small exceptional minority.

Political campaigns are a prime example of distortions, depending on who you want to believe.  References become of little value to the common person trying to decide between which political spewing is true, the sad thing is, sometimes it does not matter whether alleged facts one is lead to hear, may be true or not, for wanting to believe in a lie may override integrity of truth.

References are worthy of belief, depending on what one want’s to believe.

Hi Paul_GA,

You commented that you vote, because you feel if you don’t vote, you have no right to complain.

Actually, the opposite is true: if you VOTE, then you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. After all, in voting, you sanctioned the system. In the act of voting, you tacitly agree that you will abide by the result: “majority rules.” If you take part in the vote, and cast your ballot for (let us say) Obama, but McCain actually wins, you have no right to complain. You agreed to live with the concept of mob rule.

Only those who DON’T VOTE have a right to complain. They choose not to sanction the sham “two party” system.

Taking part in a system that offers no real choice only sanctions and strengthens that unjust system. The more people vote, the more the winners can crow about their “mandate.”

oops, I closed the italics wrong somewhere!  Damn. so here I will try. Let’s hope it works.

Of course the good George is dead, Leefeller!  Unless you are a great standup comic, personal opinions are only good for Pew Institute polls.  Actually I never mind if anybody has a personal opinion unless there is a claim that the world is a certain way.  Then belief is implied as truth!  That is the only reason to ask for references!  There is no argument against your ‘common’ sense.  Knowing the truth is one thing but making claims to truth is another.  For instance, when you say “the media” is propaganda, it is not clear what you mean, exactly.  Do you mean every avenue of news are all the same?  If so, what are you doing here at all since nothing is exempt from propaganda?  Based on your comment, why are you bothering to vote?  Did George Carlin have a good argument or not?  If not, why bother citing his advice?  If he did, then we ought to all give up and drink ourselves into oblivion and wait for doom to happen.  Is that what you are suggesting?

How do any of us know what is true and what is not? That is a question for epistemologists.  But we can go with likelihood.  What is most likely the truth based on the facts we can gather and it can change as new facts are learned.  It is a tradeoff with the worst that can happen.

She,

References, references, I don’t need no stinking references!

Accepting and assimilating information over time from radicals if yo like Tom Haydan, with comments from others, people I am more inclined to believe than the Russ Limpjaws of the world.  For some reason I am duped in to accepting the premise neo-con think tanks have successfully manipulated the government, the media and right wing religion as a tool, their lacky foot solders. This blind insistence of getting into a war every 5 years seems to support common sense and amiss in logic land.  Economics be damned, especially domestic improvements, things which could help the people.

To me the media is propaganda, used to manipulate the masses into voting aginst their own best interests. After all, ignorance is not absent from society as a whole.

Even Obama seems to have climbed aboard the attack Afghanistan and Pakistan mentality.

References are not specific but the assimilation of many different ideas, assimilated over time. Factoids, not me. How do any of us know what is true and what is not? 

Sure I will vote, George Carlin will not because he is not with us nor did he when he was. RIP George!

BlueBerry Pick’n – yes I did miss your long quote.  Sorry, must have had one grain of buckshot too less.  You say wake up! Stop being a baby.  Great!  I agree with you!  You say participate with your local Police Services Board, committees, meetings, public fora, etc.  The best advice!  It definitely would be more fruitful if city hall put more money into police training taught police to be more non-violent/non-confrontational, civil rights training, and to understand the protestors’ civil rights, to be tolerant, how to make distinctions.  Any suggestions on how to make city hall responsive to the involved public?  From my experience with watching city board meetings, the public gets the shaft no matter what.  The city managers, board members do exactly what they want.  The modus operandi at the city level is congruent with what happens in Washington.  It was an excellent post anyway and I still like all of your quotes.  Especially AyaanHirsi Ali’s.  Thank you!

its a long page, I guess you missed my point, Sheronymous

oh well.

Seduced into checking out this forum by the best of the best, I now have to make other comments just so you know somebody is reading them.  I read them all!  And went to all the links provided.  Hey thanks.  This is my shotgun approach for arriving late.

Why do you think, Farenheit451, that activism is dead?  Seems like there is plenty of evidence to the contrary already given links to on this forum.  You have an interesting evolution of how it goes, probably right!

Leefeller, you are absolutely right about the nonaction over impeachment!  Why do you think the DumDumDems are holding back?  Do you really think the Democrats are corporate shackled too?  Evidence please!  I’m not saying I don’t believe you.  Do you really think there is no difference between the GOP and the Dems and that we are completely duped? At least you are a bit more optimistic if Obama wins. But Lee, yes, let’s all not vote! Right?  Gotta love that George,… Carlin that is.  But bet that other George wishes all the Democrats don’t vote.  Surely that was a tongue in cheek comment. Your view of corporations insidious influence eating at the rights of the people is a good start but needs more references for solid point.

jake2877 – do you think it’s 1984 already?  There are 305,115,858 Americans and counting 6 more every second as of 3:10pm CDST.  Do you think all of them will submit to the alleged “growing fascism” in this country?  I don’t think the farmers will. 

Folktruther said the truth, silence implies consent!  Mobilize to resist!  But it won’t happen with third party candidates, never even if hell freezes over! 
libertarian – What freedoms are you talking about?  speech, religion, press, assembly, fair trial, right to vote, anything else?  Listen, just because some disparate parties agree on resistance to intrusive government doesn’t mean they are holding hands!  But I see you are pumping for a third party campaign again, but it will take you down a dead end.

Virginia777 – needs to spell ochlocracy correctly which means mob rule and she continues to whine about the media.  yeah yeah we all know it’s the media and the liberals that have commandeered the Internet!.  But wait, she thinks the left has awakened!  What could that mean?

troublesum – what was the reporter’s name who was sprayed by the policeman?  AG – gives good advice to keep struggling but doesn’t say whether violently or peacefully.

diamond - excellent post – worth repeating the BBC that showed WTC building number 7 being demolished and aired a lot of the facts about what happened on September 11. Of course, it didn’t tell the truth in the end and had plenty of rightwing stooges there to spin the facts but this program could never have been on the ABC even a year ago.  But the conspiracy theory about Cheney and anthrax letters over the edge but there is incredible insight on the following also worth repeating: Cheney’s essentially in hiding at the moment and has aged incredibly. The main thing is to vote in such numbers that they can’t rig the vote. It’s the economy that will do them in. Americans don’t forgive bad economic managers and this brand of Republican ideologues have turned America into a banana republic.  If I may make a little modification:  keeps America a mindlessly cold republic for their own salt mines.

Here goes… The second of 2
BruSays - Excellent posts!  Thank you.  I’m saving them on my hard drive. – Also good word that Leefeller will love! doomed! It is so evangelical!

youraveragejoe– interesting that there are no comments made at article site you gave reported September 2.  It is now eight days later.  What do you make of that?

SlimTim- How about for the love of freedom, christ’s love isn’t going to help you! You can bank on it.  But maybe loving freedom more enough to galvanize one into action will?

Yes, troublesum, why isn’t RFK Jr. running?  Now somebody is talking turkey!
I agree that the Obama strategy is paltry and is ineffective.  They had better get some smarts or de be in biiiiggg trouble!

Gmonst- an excellent and optimistic post.  Yes, American humans are progressing if an overview of history is made.  Have to keep it going and not let it stagnate as the Republican ticket promises.

DemocracyDog – that depends on the flavor of the Supreme Court!  What war? What laws?

tres – absolutely great photos!  What exaaaactly were those fascista-looking police expecting? These photos need to be posted everywhere!  The people look pretty benign, just like average folks, more average than Palin even.

rself is right! on McNutjob and Obama!

Well shelle smythe, Ohioians for Obama needs to get some computer hacks to make sure the voting machines work properly instead of wringing hands.

A war, Paul GA or Kath Cantarella or enough ordinary people who will vote?!  And let the Republican moan much as they want, we can certainly handle that.

lifewriter shows some excellent critical thinking.  I checked out Army Regulation 210-35, regarding media coverage of Civilian Inmate Labor Program camps, see Chapter 4 section 4-2.  Interesting google site about Army Detention Camps for civilian dissenters:  Description: Dissenters to the bird flu quarantine and so-called terrorists arrested under the USA Patriot Act will be taken to detention camps; there are four types of facilities.  See lifewriter’s links.  But exactly who is being sent to these camps?

rowman-is a scholar indeed!

new sbuoy – great clip from Brazil!  Best movie along with Seven Beauties, 1984, Farenheit 451 (the Bradbury book/movie not the TD commenter!).  Yes we need reminded at every turn.  Fascism abounds and permeates the mind almost unknown to the conservatives themselves.  I say almost because at some level I think they do know they want that kind of power and control.

Frank Cajon – it has been a lot longer than seven years!  Try Hoover and Joe McCarthy and Huey Long and the KKK and the 5th Column.

Ona – yes it is the imperative to get reports about travesty to humans by humans, but it is how the reporting is done that is equally important.  Truth comes when all of the facts are given not just the biased ones.

BlueBerry Pick’n – nice quotes from a Canadian.

“Anyone who has proclaimed Violence his method inexorably must choose Lying as his principle ~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

”Give me the liberty to know, to utter, & to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties ~ John Milton

”There have been periods of history in which episodes of terrible violence occurred but for which the word violence was never used.... Violence is shrouded in justifying myths that lend it moral legitimacy, & these myths for the most part kept people from recognizing the violence for what it was. The people who burned witches at the stake never for one moment thought of their act as violence; rather they thought of it as an act of divinely mandated righteousness. The same can be said of most of the violence we humans have ever committed” ~ Gil Bailie

”Each of the Iraqi children killed by the United States was our child. Each of the prisoners tortured in Abu Ghraib was our comrade. Each of their screams was ours. When they were humiliated, we were humiliated. The U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq - mostly volunteers in a poverty draft from small towns & poor urban neighborhoods - are victims just as much as the Iraqis of the same horrendous process, which asks them to die for a victory that will never be theirs. ~ Arundhati Roy, “Tide? Or Ivory Snow? Public Power in the Age of Empire”

”If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us” ~ Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937

”How many does it take to metamorphose wickedness into righteousness? One man must not kill. If he does, it is murder.... But a state or nation may kill as many as they please, & it is not murder. It is just, necessary, commendable, & right. Only get people enough to agree to it, & the butchery of myriads of human beings is perfectly innocent. But how many does it take?” ~ Adin Ballou, The Non-Resistant, 5 February 1845

”A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses & their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude.” ~ Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

“Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little” ~ Edmund Burke

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BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
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”… tolerance of intolerance is cowardice...” ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
”We, two, form a Multitude” ~ Ovid.
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”Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
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“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” — John F. Kennedy

Was Kennedy talking about USA? Some how I can’t imagine the uber-cold warrior thinking his comment had anything to do with “America”.

Though I think it apt, perhaps if stated by Malcolm X or someone with real creds.

OzarkMichael – Leftists spontaneous combustion?  A bit over the edge Ozark even for you with the Muslim thing and blaming the Christians who, it appears, you would like to make the scapegoat so you may have public permission to defend them.  You speak of convenience?  I have no feelings of warmth for Hedges, as is well known from my many posts elsewhere, but prostituting anybody for one’s own agenda is a bit un...Christian.  Hedges is no more or less sincere here than he attempts to be in anything he writes.  He is a Christian himself, an ex-divinity student who has not declared to be atheist or agnostic.  So your diatribe against him is misplaced.  Perhaps you are focusing on his en passant melodramatic inclusion of Christian crosses and professions of faith in his comparison to the face of Janus (two-faced). But of course, his reference to Palin’s militant evangelicalism did it!  There must be a hands off on anything or anyone that smacks of Christian fascism since the truth hurts.  Who is really combusting here?

You are absolutely correct, however, the election will hinge on whether it is about real issues, or a perpetrated culture war.  That part is about as insightful as anybody has made on this entire thread!  It is truly clever of the Republicans to have inserted that stinking aroma, put into a skirt, into the election, but it is not entirely unexpected.  It is the sleight of hand of the slick sorcerer and the red herring effect so typical of Republican politics when they want to keep the mind of the hoi polloi off the real issues, which thank you, you have clearly pointed out.  Your clarity is much more helpful than Hedges ever is.  All that being said, it is not a non-issue however, but it must be relegated to its proportionally proper place.

Fundamentalism in Christianity and Islam do have similarities that you want to deny and deflect for obvious proprietary reasons.  The atheist doesn’t have to point them out, but they do because no body else is, or can.  Fanaticism needs to be exposed wherever it raises its ugly head even if it does within fundamentalist-based religions.  You describe a certain kind of atheist but there are different flavors of atheism just as you claim there are fundamentalist Christians.  And there are non-militant atheists.  First of all, an atheist, any atheist, has no faith.  Faith is not descriptive of their beliefs.  It is precisely the lack of faith in the sense that Christians and Islamists have that drives their thinking.  If they have beliefs, and I admit belief by its very nature cannot be based on provable and absolutely known evidence, these beliefs are founded in the well-researched rationale that there is a strong component of delusion to all religious belief.  While specific fundamentalism within a religion, i.e., Christianity and Islam, have unique characteristics arising from their distinct origins, the ensuing motives become so similar that the differences are negligible on that score.  It is the unbridled passion and mental agitation of fundamentalism that at first unites them, then other common elements, some of these already correctly spelled out by outrage.

Funny but I see the media, particularly MSM as completely conservative.  DO notice the obvious placement of who goes first on their reportage and who goes last and exactly how long each candidate is shown, how the media coverages are cleverly edited.  Particularly PBS The News Hour that claims to be objective is positively revolting how they nuance towards a more gentle or cutesy McCain and shrill Obama!  But you may be quite right about Hedges wanting Obama to lose.  Personally I think he always has his head up that dark dark place.

I could have the stats wrong, but dont 80% if China’s people stil live in abject poverty? That is not to say the US is better--I just dont think that all the rosy data coming out about China is al real--at least not for most of the population. If you type “freedom” into a pc--they wont open it and spy on you. Sounds like the USA Patriot Act to me-Chinese style- and google turned over to the Chinese govt all the people that it requested,in the name of capitalism. It is hard to imagine that Chinese multi-natls. are doing any different than US-original multi-nationals.  I coudl be mis-informed--it is not unusual in the uS.

Some people at SP-USA bring up China as an example for the US future. I dont think its communist or socialist--its just capitalist. We would not be able to muster the cooperatin in the “individualsitic” society--but do we really want that?

Everytime I see the McDonald’s and Starbuck’s in China, I wonder what has happend to the ancient culture there. To me, it just looks like the US.

It seems that many subsistence level agricultural peasants were asked to give up land in the spirit of “cooperation”. From the show I saw on PBS, they get absolutely nothing return.That doesnt seem to be a good human rights goal.

PBS can be full of it. Refer me somewhere.

Re: OzarkMichael

Your comment: “Lets be precise. Its a fundamental tenet of your faith that Christianity and Islam are the same, and that the fundamentalisms are the same, and produce the same blight upon the world. It is a pillar of the liberal atheist creed.”

I do not have “a faith” OzarkMichael.  This is something you are erroneously claiming, however where you may have gathered this idea is telling.  Other than the rhetoric produced by many fundamentalists, atheism is NOT “a faith”. As in a religious faith, such as you are suggesting.  I do not adhere to tenets of any kind.  I look for truths and facts.  Truth and fact are exactly the OPPOSITE of faith.

Fundamentalists of ANY religion do share some basic beliefs.  One, such as I averred with this comment:

“Fundamentalists seek to create dictatorial theocracies and are against democracy.  It is a basic tenet of their faith.  They NEVER seek to merely blend within society and do not believe in any laws or rules other than those that they consider are from God.”

This is a fact, and in this way, they are the same.  Yes, they are.  This is not meant to say that there are no differences, of course there are, otherwise they would be the same religion, would they not...?

However, ALL fundamentalists take their version of supposedly “God’s word” and interpret it to mean that GOD’S RULES super-cede ANY AND ALL rules of man.  And as I said, this is A BASIC TENET of fundamentalism.  Now whether you are a Christian fundamentalist or a Muslim fundamentalist this IS a basic tenet of your FAITH.

While there are differences between the religions, I do not see ANY reason to assume that Christian fundamentalism as opposed to Muslim fundamentalism to be any less dangerous to democracy.  Both are dangerous.  Both seek to eradicate democracy for the reasons I’ve stated.  Look at the Medievel inquisitions (Christians) or the current state of Afghanistan (Muslim) where it concerns fundamentalism, a literal interpretation of their “holy book”, and it is easy to ascertain that BOTH are against democracy and dangerous for humanity.

For your reference, atheism according to Wikipedia.

“Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.[4][5][6][7]

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism[8] and naturalism,[9] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere;[10] and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.”

Atheism can be many things, however as the excerpt states, “THERE IS NO ONE IDEOLOGY OR SET OF BEHAVIORS TO WHICH ALL ATHEISTS ADHERE”, therefore OzarkMichael, to claim that I have ANY “fundamental tenets” is a absolute falsehood.

I’m always dismayed by posts like HeavyRunner

they are OUR Community Peace Officers.

so go take them back.

Show UP at City Hall.  Be respectful.  Participate.

Ensure they understand that you want redirection from MILITARIZATION to budgets set aside for non-violent/non-confrontational conflict management skills training. You want your cops to have ACTUAL CIVIL RIGHTS training & training to understand PROTESTERS’ civil rights.

Wake up.

Bitching & moaning & insulting the police doesn’t encourage or win their hearts & minds, now does it?

quit bitching:  participate.

create our communities: DEMOCRACY IS NEITHER AN ARMCHAIR SPORT, NOR IS IT SOMETHING YOU CAN DELEGATE - create your reality!
participate with your local Police Services Board, committees, meetings, public fora, letters to editors, articles for local papers… BE INVOLVED.

be pacifist, be determined… BE part of the COMMUNITY that reminds OUR police they are NOT ‘law enforcement’ but facilitators to OUR communities.

I’ve no respect for those who shriek about ‘the pigs’ when they could much more easily become **recognized** as a reputable community peace activist & NEIGHBOUR at the local copshack.

wake up.  & stop being a baby. you gotta GIVE to GET.

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Spread love, not hate, fear & corporate dependence,

BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
┄┄
” ... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice… ” ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
”We, two, form a Multitude” ~ Ovid.
┄┄
”Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
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No, China isn’t fascist, KDelphi, the equating of the left and right with Totalitarianism is American capitalist bullshit. China’s historical task is one the US and Europt accompished last century, getting the people off the farns and into towns.  A very painful and difficult historical experience, which the Chinese are accomplishing faster and better than classical capitalism.

Marxism theory posits that before socialism is possible, capitalism has to develop the tehnical resources that are necessary to free people from primitive poverty.  This capitlism occurred first historically in the West. 

It is now occurring in Asia, where sixty percent of earthpeople live.  China has developed a centralized capitalism that is leading Asia, and the third world, into modern life, as opposed to starvation and disease and the brutality and delusion necessary for ruling power structures to sustain it.

China is growing four times faster than the economies of the West, regaining its historical place in the world that it has lost the past two centuries.  It is an old and successful cultural system with the experience to govern largely without violence and intimidation, insofar as this is possible in a violent and anti-people age.

In a few decades, when it has finished urbaninzing its population, we can go on to the next stage of socialism, whatever form that turns out to be.  But for now China is a progressive force in the world even as it caters to despotic polities.  It needs to avoid the thermonuclear war that usually accompanies transformations of power arrangements such as this one.  And the US is ruled by homicidal megalomaniacs.

RealMedia had a guy from ACLU on today--he reports that, because of the (un)Patriot Act, these people could get 7 yrs in prison! It is now a felony! This stupid ass act needs to be overturned.Its’ been so politicized, --the GOP kept it from passing under Clinton, but, after 9/11, wrote it right up for Bush! Politicians need to stop playing politics with our civil liberties.
Unless you are rich enough to hire a lobbyist, it is your only means (voting is fixed) of redress of grievance. I dont think that there should be lobbyists at all. But, that is not going to happen in a duopoly.

Think the Amendment to FEMA Laws has no connection? Think again. It allowed them to spy on people and set them up.

As of today, 9/10, the charges against Amy Goodwin, Nicole Salazar and Serif Abdel Kaddous still stand.  My guess is that if enough legal help comes, the charges will be dropped because they don’t want to have it revealed that Amy, Nicole, and Sherif were targeted. Why the police did not wear IDs. Also, it will come out, in stark relief, that the RNC took out a $10 million insurance policy for St. Paul to cover the suits that they were sure would ensue.  And for the St. Paul folks, how much did this overkill cost. I’ll bet that there is much more beneath the surface that the Secret Service, the RNC and the St. Paul police want to keep quiet. Maybe things to which even the goons do not have plausible rebuttals.

geneman--That is certainly not what the journalists who tried to report from the Olympics said. The US government if fascist. So is China’s as far as I can see. Maybe your book would change my mind, but, unless its out in paperback, I probably cant affored it. Our elections are futile--they simply dont have any. If they are just as bad as the uS, as far as Imperislism, well, we might just as well all give it up.

Having lived and taught and written in and from China, and have a forthcoming book on this subject (A Billion to One: An American Insider in China) I must observe that we are heading in opposite directions in every way (except a parallel course towards environmental and economic mutual destruction). China had its Tienanmen Square. We had Kent State. And while no one we know of was shot, St. Paul is a grave harbinger of the shape of things to come on this side of the Pacific. During my 30 months in China the only weapons I ever saw were at a flag ceremony (two carbines and a cannon) and at banks (Kalashnikovs), where Chinese Brinks-style armored cars transport cash. China is still a cash economy and so there’s a lot of cash. I never heard of anyone being shot in China, during my stay (including my province, Heilongjiang, which has upwards of 50 million people). Do the Chinese still oppress and harass and arrest dissidents protestors? Yes. Same as us. But there the person on the street is a whole lot safer, including from government harassment. The Chinese now emulate us in every way, economically and culturally (although their former political adulation from the Clinton era has vanished since the Iraq war and Bush re-election) and we are certainly aping them in the worst ways. One party Communist or Republican rule backed by the military? Orwellian big lies and Machiavellian manipulation of truth? Rasputin to Gang of Four to Bush, Karl Marx to Karl Rove, it’s around the corner and already here. Long as all their multinational corporate crony pals get nice payoffs, as they do. There’s little difference any more except China is still on its way up, and we on our way down, slouching towards Bethlehem.

per Outraged: Fundamentalists seek to create dictatorial theocracies and are against democracy.  It is a basic tenet of their faith.

Lets be precise. Its a fundamental tenet of your faith that Christianity and Islam are the same, and that the fundamentalisms are the same, and produce the same blight upon the world. It is a pillar of the liberal atheist creed.

How dangerous it might be for the atheist to use his reason instead of his faith to evaluate the proposition!  I didnt think the atheist worldview was so fragile, but apparently if we take that pillar out, the atheist worldview would… collapse?

Surely not. Hopefully not. I respect the atheist worldview enough to think it can be strengthened by truth and not wrecked by it.

Then it shouldnt be so hard to look at the facts. One needs only a little courage and honesty.

@ Paul-GA: thank you for the response to my question. It was a rational answer but it makes me sad for the Left. I do think this election will make a difference, but it seems that many people (like yourself) are dispirited. Many of the posts here express the same sentiment. I get the drift of what you all are saying.

Paolo, I don’t think the country can vote itself into freedom; as you say, it may take a new civil war to do that. But I vote anyway, because I feel that if one does not vote, one has no right to complain about the government.

You got carried away, Paul Easton.  It IS necessary to oppose the power system.  It isn’t done for unless some force is opposing it.  And the opposition serves as a ideology point for the next step forward.

There is an amusing truther called Dmitry Orlov, who has a blog called ClubOrlov.  He was an eyewitness to the collapse of the soviet union.  He maintains that Americans are deficient in collapse preparedness, and that we will have a harder time recovering than Russia did, mostly because of our selfish individualism.

It is necessary to mobilize the population NOW for the American collapse which is predicted even by mainstream bourgeois thinkers, like Chalmers Johnson. To do so, I maintain, it is necessary to generalize marxism to include ethnicities such as races as well as classes.  It is this theory lack that has concealed the hijacking of the American power system by Zionist neocons and neolibs.  Although events mobilize the masses, the direction is determined by the theory available at the time.

enjoy!

Battle in Seattle opens this month.  Go watch it.

If you aren’t familiar with this history-making episode in World History:

- http://www.thisisdemocracy.org/
- http://www.realbattleinseattle.org/
- http://www.battleinseattlemovie.com/

“This Is What Democracy Looks Like”:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2007206186362 541122

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Spread Love, not hate, fear & corporate dependence…

BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
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” ... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice...” ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
”We, two, form a Multitude” ~ Ovid.
”True Pacifism is not unrealistic submission to an Evil power...it is rather a courageous confrontation with Evil by the Power of Love, in the faith that it is better to be the recipient of violence than the inflicter of it, since the latter only multiplies the existence of violence & bitterness in the Universe, while the former may develop a sense of shame in the opponent, & thereby bring about a transformation & change of Heart.” - MLK
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”Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
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The office of president is an illusion. The corporations run it all...get used to it. Democrat or Republican makes no difference...just like Mets or Yankees.

In the good old days of the Vietnam War there was one DC demo called ‘Shut It Down’ or something like that. The DC cops did mass preemptive arrests of anyone they could catch. Later everyone who was arrested was awarded $10,000 by the court. In those days the Constitution still meant something to the judges.

Today the Constitution is a dead letter. The Ruling Class has expropriated all of the political space. Dissent will get you no where, and as for Revolution dont make me laugh.

And you know what? It doesnt matter. Because the Capitalist System is being destroyed by its own dynamics. The economy is crashing and like Humpty Dumpty it cant be fixed. The rest of the world is behind us here but I think it will follow soon.

So its not necessary to oppose the System. The System is done for. The big question is what will happen next. Will we revert to Feudalism or go forward to something else? Forward to what? Which way is up? Thats all we need to think about now.

Ye old bumper sticker says “Who Gives A Damn About Apathy”

Amerika has a long history of suppressing and oppressing those who oppose war. For evidence, study Lincoln’s treatment of dissident newspapers, Wilson’s arresting of antiwar protesters, Vietnam protests, and so forth. Only now, we’re right at the cusp of crossing over fully into a fascist, blackshirt state. All that is needed is one more big terrorist attack, either real or manufactured.

Observe that both Republican and Democratic politicians are equally comfortable with this modern fascism. Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Johnson, and Nixon all drank from the same cup.

If you still think we can vote ourselves into freedom, you haven’t been paying attention. It’s going to take a revolution, folks--probably a violent one--to throw off the beast.

“Someone needs to wake up the cops! If they continue simply “following orders.” we’re damned! “

But Jamie, it is sooo cool to dress up like Darth Vader. Always the chance you might get to shoot someone, maybe even kill them.

The juice is running down my leg just thinking about it. It would make my girlfriend so hot!

Jose

If it were up to me, OzarkMichael, neither of the major parties would win. The Repubs are the full-strength War Party, while the Demos are the War Party Lite. Since the Demos are not as antiwar as they ought to be, I for one will take my vote elsewhere this November. I voted Libertarian the last two elections; this time, I’m leaning to the Greens, simply because I’m dissatisfied with Bob Barr and I think Cynthia McKinney is the most antiwar of the third-party candidates.

To choose Sarah Palin was an outrageous example of the TRUE perspective of the radical right.  I thought this article by Juan Cole @ Commondreams entitled, “What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.” says it well.

“John McCain announced that he was running for president to confront the “transcendent challenge” of the 21st century, “radical Islamic extremism,” contrasting it with “stability, tolerance and democracy.” But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers. On censorship, the teaching of creationism in schools, reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God’s will and climate change, Palin agrees with Hamas and Saudi Arabia rather than supporting tolerance and democratic precepts. What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.....”

“.....Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. The most noxious belief that Palin shares with Muslim fundamentalists is her conviction that faith is not a private affair of individuals but rather a moral imperative that believers should import into statecraft wherever they have the opportunity to do so. That is the point of her pledge to shape the judiciary. Such a theocratic impulse is incompatible with the Founding Fathers’ commitment to tolerance and democracy, which is why they forbade the government to “establish” or officially support any particular religion or denomination.

McCain once excoriated the Rev. Jerry Falwell and his ilk as “agents of intolerance.” That he took such a position gave his opposition to similar intolerance in Islam credibility. In light of his more recent disgraceful kowtowing to the Christian right, McCain’s animus against fundamentalist Muslims no longer looks consistent. It looks bigoted and invidious. You can’t say you are waging a war on religious extremism if you are trying to put a religious extremist a heartbeat away from the presidency.”

I agree.  Fundamentalists seek to create dictatorial theocracies and are against democracy.  It is a basic tenet of their faith.  They NEVER seek to merely blend within society and do not believe in any laws or rules other than those that they consider are from God.  While there are some differences between sects, the premise is the same.

Someone needs to wake up the cops! If they continue simply “following orders.” we’re damned!

We may well end up with the Christian right on one side, with politicians like Sarah Palin providing an ideological veneer to a Christian fascism, and embittered leftist radicals who turn to violence on the other.

Hedges at his ‘best’. Poor embittered Leftists. They dont want to hurt anybody. But they really have to try so hard to control themselves! Its amazing they havent spontaneously combusted out of sheer frustration.

Hedges can blame any future violence from his leftist buddies on the Christian ‘Fascists’? I’m sure he blames embittered Muslim radicals who turn to violence(ie terrorists) on Christians too.

How convenient. Not well thought out, but convenient.

Oh, and what iteration of his ‘Christian-conservative-leader-who-is-secretly-a-fasc ist’ is Hedges working on now? 3rd? 4th? (Those first few tries didnt work out I guess) Oh, but this time he really means it! This time Hedges’ Great Fascist Pumpkin will surely arrive because Hedges is so sincere. Or is this a sort of cottage industry for Chris to keep stoking up the far left’s fear of Christianity? You guys must get a buzz from that sort of thing. 

Do you understand how helpful to McCain/Palin that is?

The Democrats should win the election on issues, but instead Hedges wants to fight a culture war which just so happens to be the only ‘issue’ on which the Republicans can win. Think about it.

I will spell it out for you: 

Issues = Democrats win this time

Culture War = Republicans win this time

But read all the happy comments here which agree with Hedges. Think. Watch all the You Tube records of Olberman’s biased anchor/moderator work for MSNBC coverage of the conventions. Nothing like a heavy liberal media bias to get the moderates to side with Palin and the Republicans. And make the lukewarm-to-McCain-Evangelicals become fired up. Obama was going to pry some of them away. Well, that wont happen now. Think about it.

The race is TIED today. For no reason at all except the media jumped on Palin which reignited the culture war mentality before she even opened her mouth. It gave her a huge opportunity to attack the media and tie Obama to that media. Now he looks like he is part of the establishment. It is unfair but thats what happened. 

But Hedges can’t get enough. He wanted even MORE liberal media bias to cover the protesters instead of the Republican convention. Sort of like Keith Olberman, who wished the newspeople didnt show parts of the convention and actually said so on live TV. Pronouncing out loud a wish to censor a convention which you are supposed to be covering objectively....VERY DUMB!

I think Hedges wants Obama to lose.

Is that what you guys want too?

While the points about the fact that we are an authoritarian state (have been for seven years) in this article are well taken, I look to two other scenes for points of reference. One was last September 11, when, despite my disablility I went to the Federal building and demonstrated, as part of what I hoped would be a general strike by concerned Americans against the Iraq war. In the sleepy military town of San Diego (population 2 million), in my wheelchair, I had the company of about 75 total people most of the time. There were almost that many counter demonstrators.
The other scene was Chicago in 1968. That time I wasn’t there, I was only 19, but I was a volunteer worker for Gene McCarthy and had been in peace marches for three years already. The carnage in that convention and the betrayal of America by the Democrats drove me to the SWP and other splinter parties for two decades. Sure, this kind of crap is unacceptable, but I don’t think the Democrats have ever in 40 years made me feel like that massacre was truly regretted. The blood of over 25,000 troops was spilled by Nixon, and it was the doing of Humphrey, Daley, and the Democratic party heirarchy. As fascist as Chancellor Bush and Cheney are, they got their primer in the art from watching that convention, and not enough Americans really care. If they did, we would have a general strike in two days, with thousands marching on Washington. But we won’t.