Folktruther
The best way to inform yourself is to read Anatoly Fomenko’s book, “History: Science or Fiction”. Go to vol. 4. You may find your way to chapter 14, sec. 31 and on. Did you know that what happened in early Russian history was not written by Russian, but German historians, and that Russian historians were repressed with no small determination on the part of the Romanov tsar? The book has interesting pages about maps and how they were misdated and destroyed. Though much research needs to be done (with so much information destroyed never to be recovered), the book justifies its perspective. It is verified by movements within the larger picture.

Are you saying, Eso, that the Mongols DIDN’T conquer Russa?  Could I ask what history supports that?

The presumption that the West won the Cold War is just that--a presumption. It thrills the neocons in the U.S., because like many in Europe before them, it seems to open the door to further exploitation of the world’s natural resources (commodities), this time by means of so-called “globalization”. After liquidating the mom-and-pop shops in the U.S. in the 1950s and exhausting America’s own resources, American oligarchs turned their attentions toward the areas once controlled by the Soviet Union and European colonialists. The logic for the grab is analogos to Israel claiming to be repossessing its ancient empire, which of course never was except as a religious fantasy. A similar rewrite of history is the so-called Mongolian invasion of Russia by Ghengis Khan, a story invented to mask the attempted seizure of Russia by the West through the Romanovs, western coo-coo birds laying their eggs in the far flung forests of the Slavs and Balts in the East.

Trespassing on territory that has been in Russia’s sphere of influence (which itself was once part of The Great Original Empire--deconstructed to the Mongolian Empire)is a continuation by the West to construct a unipolar world. The effort however cannot succeed, because the history of the West’s aggression in the East is part of an ongoing process for eight hundred years. While the public has been misinformed of the true history of the world, the elites have by no means forgotten the real story. See Anatoly Fomenko’s “History: Fiction or Science for more detailed study of the process.)

The definitive beginning of agression by the West against the East may be dated to the so-called Fourth Crusade, which sacked Constantinople (also known as Jerusalem)in 1204. The sacking eliminated arch-Christianity (yes, it existed before Christian neocons, and was a Christian belief system based on self-sacrifice) and replaced it with a new one, which was controlled by the brothers and other close relatives of sword carrying princes. This is what was behind the crusades directed against the slavic Bogomils, the French and Italian Cathars, the Latvian Johns Children, and others.

Well, Patrick you still kind of mix up anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism but what the hell, it’s worth it to attack the Israli lobby.

Your right, Tony Wicher,my post doesn’t make any sense and now I can’t remember what I was going to say.  Well, that happesn.  Sometinmes a get a little confused but after a while it passes, and I’m as lucid as before.

By Tony Wicher, September 6 at 2:26 pm #

While you are entitled to your opinions, many of which I respect, don’t be confused by your incorrect interpretation of my views as you believe.

My beef is with my governments relationship with Israel and is and has been the point of my postings here at Truthdig.  Only when posters rebut me they bring “all jews” into the mix and inject antisemitic accusations which I could care less about as this is a typical tactic against those who call out Israel.

Judaism as a religion I respect, it is old and established and has many just teachings. There are many talanted doctors, teachers, businessmen who have been instrumental in shaping this country and have nothing but good in their hearts.

But with all the good done in the name of Judiaism there is the bad too.

It is those jews who believe they are “chosen people” and follow certain Talmudic teachings which I believe are downright racist and discrimminatory that I have my disagreements with. 

They attempt to justify Israels continued repression of the Palistinians and the warmongering by their unregistered lobbies concerning Iraq and Iran.  The the American mainstream media’s collusion with them is reprehensible.

I do not support Israel and do not want America’s foreign policy to reflect theirs or support them in any way financially.

I do believe AIPAC, ADL, JINSA and the myriad host of lesser jewish lobbies exert more power than their numbers should warrant and if their lobbing actions should include Israel, they should have to register as a foreign agent as all other countries do.

Rey Folktruther, September 6 at 1:14 pm #

You have to distinguish more sharply between anti-semitism, which is racist, and anti-zionism,which opposes a political movement of Jews and Christians, which Tony Wicker supports.
-----------------------------------------------------What are you saying I support? I can’t even make out what your garbled statement is trying to say. I am certainly not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim and I oppose the idea of a “Jewish state” as much as a “Christian state” or an “Islamic state”, which makes me both anti-Zionist and a principled advocate of democracy and universal human rights.

But I do agree with you about PH. I can see you can’t help being disturbed by an undeniable undertone of anti-Semitism in PH’s posts and his dubious links. I have been trying to get through to him for years, because otherwise he seems like a good man, but he does seem unable to distinguish properly between Zionism and Judaism and keeps falling into anti-Semitism. It is hard, and Zionists certainly do everything possible to identify with Judaism, which means they are bringing the wrath of people like PH on the heads of the Jewish people. 

Maybe you will have better luck with PH than I.

Re PatrickHenry, September 6 at 12:51 pm #

By Tony Wicher, September 6 at 11:33 am #

Tony, how can you be so blind?  This whole affair stinks of Israeli involvement and our U.S. press spreads the usual disinfo.
----------------------------------------------------
We agree that there is a U.S.-Israeli imperialist alliance. We disagree about who is in control. The United States is vastly more powerful than Israel - a hundred times more powerful, both economically and militarily. Sure, Israel was heavily involved. They are the imperialist allies of the U.S. So is the Georgian government - both clients of the U.S. But Israel does not control the U.S. government or the media. The military-industrial complex does. Sure there are lots of Jews all over the former Soviet Union, many in high places. That’s what happens when you are better educated than the average bear.

PH--And, pray tell , what “historic claim” does the USA have to this part of hte Americas? (I know about the terrorism we did against King George--now we have another one, and the Am people want to replace hin with another temp. King!) In 1776, our “ancestors “ could well have been labelled “enemy combatants”! (not mine--were stil in Scandanavia--often wish I were)RonPaul’s campaign took money for THIS campaign from White Supremecists groups , like Aryan Nation. He didnt even dispute it on C-SPAN. He just said. “I dont need it. But I dont think I should have to give it back”. And he shouldnt. And no one but anti-semites shoudl vote for him. Look I know what youre saying about our “special relationship” with the theocratic Israel . My brother-in-law is Jewish, and he didnt even want to vote for Gore in 2000, because he said Lieberman was a “zionist”. Guess he was right. The Israelites are mostly people of of Hebrew background . Our “special relationship” with Israel (if you ask me) is based alot more on proximity to oil-rich countries, than it is to its concern for Jewish people. The Palestinaisn situation (which I’m sure some people are more versed in here than I am--gawd why do I feel I have to qualify everything, even opinions, in here!!)is a true mess. Not all Jewish Ams. agree on what to do.Carter had some good ideas, but the Dem Convention blackballed him, basically.I’m not sure our politicians WANT to solve the prob.--it provides too much ready cash--esp. for neo-cons and idiotic evangelicals that think “
Jesus wants the Jews to be in the Holy Land” and then “he"ll come save us all--except for YOU!@!”

By Folktruther, September 6 at 1:14 pm #

As always, any criticism of Israel invokes the words “antisemitism” and the word “jews” gets injected into the mix, as a defense.

Interestingly, most of the european jews in Israel aren’t semites at all, they have no historic claim to that land.

As for the libel you suggest against Ron Paul that has been refuted many times over.  He would surely end the relationship the US has with Israel and end our involvement in that region.

But then again being “folktruther” you purport to know all, identifying with the MSM and all.

More to the point, PatrikHenry, Israel was helping build Georgia’s military and Israeli military advisers, along with American advisers, were attached to the brigades that invaded Ossetia.

You are quite right that Israel had a large stake in Georgia, and hoped to get the oil from the pipeline across its land.  But just because a person is Jewish doesn’t mean s/he indetifies with Zionism.  I’m Jewish and I oppose it.

You have to distinguish more sharply between anti-semitism, which is racist, and anti-zionism,which opposes a political movement of Jews and Christians, which Tony Wicker supports.

Since Ron Paul sent out racist tracts for decades in his newsletters, and you support him, the distinction may be more difficult for you than for most people.

Part 2 of 2

Just as the wars between nations are nearly ALWAYS based on the ‘economy’ (for lack of any better word) of the environment, and a competition for controlling the resources of survival, the same thing exists in the class wars structure set-up here or anywhere else for that matter. We see a mirror of it in Iraq, in the civil violence that was initiated by the US. The ensuing civil breakdown along ethnic lines, (which wasn’t the case prior to the invasion and occupation)

The same thing is happening here, in many of the cities and suburbs across the country. And at the base, we just continue to become more and more unsettled, and in many respects, imperceptibly so, just because it’s come over an extended period of time. The increased (and OBVIOUS) police presence is everywhere as well. I’ve noticed, just in my own small community, the increase of highly visible law enforcement. That could be marginally determined by the fact that it is a university supported community, and the neo-cons and fundamentalist like to call us ‘hot beds of liberalism’. But the increase in law enforcement/police presence seems very much ‘across the board’ to me.

Anyway, I digressed, but I said all of that to say..yep, the economic collapse is what has already occurred, and the fall-out from that is disaster in the making.

By Tony Wicher, September 6 at 11:33 am #

Tony, how can you be so blind?  This whole affair stinks of Israeli involvement and our U.S. press spreads the usual disinfo.

Why would America be willing to “give” Georgia $1 billion?  Maybe to facilitate an unprovoked attack by Israel on Iran.  Talk about terrorism.

Haiti has 600,000 in need of food, water and shelter, a billion would go a long way.

http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/zionists-georg ian-experiment/

another interesting link:

Read death from the skies.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2869.htm#001

PH
It is interesting information. Perhaps someone knows how this came about and will tell.

By PatrickHenry, September 6 at 8:16 am #

PH,

So, there are lots of Jews in Russia and Georgia. So, Israel has strong connections with Georgia. So what?

Apparently, Russia isn’t afraid of pissing off Israel and the American zionist media who mollycoddle them.

I tried to post the link but it won’t post.

DON’T MENTION THE JEW
September 1, 2008 — crescentandcross

Lasha Darkmoon

A few years ago a friend of mine, “C”, an expert on Eastern Europe, wrote an article for the New Statesman on the Russian oligarchs. Knowing little of these matters at the time, I was not particularly excited to learn that Putin had systematically dismantled the oligarchs’ political power, that he had taken over Berezovsky’s and Guzinsky’s media empire in 2000, and that he had ordered the arrest of Yukos owner Mikhail Khodorkovsky in 2003 on charges of fraud.

However, a light suddenly went on in my mind and all the pieces of the jigsaw suddenly fell into place, when I read a SINGLE SENTENCE which “ought not to have been written!” — a sentence which was to cause a veritable furor in the British press — including shrill complaints of “anti-Semitism” from the likes of Jewess Melanie Philipps, author of the anti-Islamic tract “Londonistan: how Britain is creating a Terror State Within” (2006).

What crime had my friend “C” committed? What faux pas had his editor condoned? It was this. In a moment of madness, “C” had let the cat out of the bag. He had revealed the hitherto carefully concealed fact that SIX of the seven oligarchs who had stolen the Russian family silver were JEWS!

This was clearly unforgivable. To mention the word “Jew” in this context, raged the frenzied Ms Phillips, was tantamount to encouraging a second Holocaust.

Why do I bring this up now? For this reason. We have recently had an armed conflict in Georgia. TV, radio, and the press have reported these events in wearisome detail. Only ONE thing they consistently fail to mention: that Georgia is overrun with Jews, that it is a hotbed of Jews, and that Israeli advisers and arms are to be found everywhere in Georgia ad nauseam.

They have omitted to mention — for of course it would be anti-Semitic to do so! — that Georgian Prime Minister Vladimir Gurgenidze is Jewish! — that his Defense Minister Davit Kezerashvili is a Jew who enjoys Israeli citizenship! — that the former Georgian ambassador to Israel is Jewish and that half his family are domiciled in Israel! — and, finally, that tens of thousands of Israelis flock to Georgia every year where they own second homes! (See Dr Hesham Tillawi, ‘Georgia: Israel’s Home Sweet Home’.)

These facts, it seems, must on no account be revealed to the public at large. Too much knowledge is anti-Semitism. A blissful ignorance of these matters is apparently a passport to philosemitism.

* * *

More at http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/don’ t-mention-the-jew/

but you have to find it.

Pray to die in the blasts--like my dad used to say--you dont want to be one of the last two people on the planet, fighting over the last irradiated potato. (I remember saying, “Wouldnt we share it?” LOL. I fear that the answer could be NO, with this “new age” capitalism))We are NOT “stil in the trees"--the great apes never exterminate each other on the scale that we do. Reagan discussed limited nuclear war as survivable (need any other reasons why quoting Reagan tend to piss off liberals??)We used limited nukes in Iraqi invasion--I forget what they called them--someone help out. I am terrified, and we need to declare Cheney an enemy of the state, adn, then the uN can hold him at the Hague

@ Eso, September 4 at 4:48 am #
Apparently we share the same fears.  I don’t know what else to say except maybe look at my last post under yours.  I think it’s every human for themselves.  Dresden was equally as wrong as our nuking of Japan.  War against civilians; we humans have no history to be proud of.  We’ve never really left the trees.  The veneer is very thin.

Fahrenheit 451
I fear war too. I saw Dresden burn (from a distance)and shells and bombs of the combatants dropped pretty close to me on several occasions. Yes, I understand that the elites may risk war to avoid economic collapse. That is what the U.S. attack on Iraq is all about and what the planned attack on Iran suggests. But there comes a time when no one comes to war because it becomes obvious to everyone that the house has already burnt down and is falling, and the fire we see is the fire that is being extinguished by the very collapse. To put it in geopolitical terms: there is no way that I see the West capturing the underbelly of Russia. (Charge of the Light Brigade anyone?) It appears that if Georgian airfields are needed for a successful attack on Iran (by Israel or whoever), the Russian counterattack on Georgia was to jam and keep this particular wheel from turning in favor of the neocons and their supporters. Russia has not only issued fairly explicit warnings against placing rockets that could be turned against it, but told what it would do when forced to react. A fire in the region of the underbelly would count as a war, of course, but that war would resolve the present economic weaknesses into mass economic chaos.

Oh, and by the way, are you aware that the first public discussions of limited tactical nuclear war are now being discussed?  It is being acknowledged that a war with Russia may involve tactical nukes; used by both sides.  You know; Russia blasts the 6th fleet and the U.S. responds with a strike of it’s own...nothing too serious mind you but a painful retaliation.  The thinking (thinking???) is that this will not escalate to all out (nuclear) war. So, you want to talk about crazy?  I think if you are smart; you will find a place far from the crazies and hunker down.

@ Eso;
As the latest progenitor (the U.S.) of war, yes, I fear war.  What healthy human does not.  My country seems bent on a policy of perpetual war.  This, it would seem, is the antithesis of a healthy economy.  War distracts ones attention by creating the constant tension of fear.  Jingoistic rhetoric fills every waking moment.  Yes, the economy is critically important, but only to the poor and middle class because they then get even less.  The ruling class uses war to keep the illusion going and the shrinking middle class and expanding poor class are held with rapt attention to every news report; kept intentionally off balance, they tend to go with hype and no longer trust their own ability to discern the truth.  A. Fomenko’s revision of history is very interesting, but the little I know of it isn’t enough to speak about.  It would take a great deal of study, no, a huge amount, to understand it and have any idea of it’s validity.  I would simply add that anybody who believes anything their government says is a fool.  I would further add that belief itself is a trap.

It is interesting that most writers here seem to fear war. It seems to me that we need to fear an economic collapse more. The deck of cards is stacked to tilt in that direction. The current economic problems have, at best, worked themselves only halfway through the necessary “correction”. I am surprised that the neocons are sending Georgia only 1 billion in support. Of course, this is so the country may resupply itself with arms, whereas what the country needs is to have its confidence rebuilt. But how can that be done with the loss of two of its states and Ukraine shrinking back from its flirtations with NATO and the U.S.?

It is likely the U.S. government understands that an economic collapse will bring the war as violent civil turmoil to mainland America itself--by way of unrest in our cities. Similar civil unrest threatens city slum environments the world over. During WW2 we (in Europe) fled from cities to the countryside--if we still had relatives there. Today subsistance farming in so-called developed countries has been eliminated and is being quickly eroded in eastern Europe by the young moving to cities. Where does one hide now? [In the old days the people now living in refugee camps in the desert would have drifted back into the forest and started recovering by taking up subsistence farming again.]

Last but not least, we need to educate ourselves about A. Fomenko’s rewrite of the chronology of history, especially that of Russia and Europe. There is great resistance among the western power elite to give Fomenko a reading (BBC did not permit the publisher to advertise the book--you may look it up by way of You Tube or Amazon) credence. Even so, a sentiment against western interpretation of past events and chronology beg scepticism. The destruction of the Baghdad museum was not by accident of course, but a sort of holocaust to disappear even more of the true history of human activity on our planet. On the other hand, the ancient Empire that modern Israel claims for itself, an actual never-never land, is still spoken of as if it not only was but is.

In short, it is war that rewrites history. An economic collapse, a much more painful and slow process, is just the kind of incentive to encourage us to look at the chronology and interpretation of history again--and discover that it did not happen the way we are told it happened.

Anarcissie, September 3 at 2:25 pm

To repeat, the country is collapsing economically and militarily. If our ruling class doesn’t do something about it, all their children will be speaking Chinese. They don’t want that any more than we do.

Maybe you are right, Jackpine, that Cheney-Bush are so desparate, they no longer care about the consequences of war.  On Global Exchange a professor N. Petro made a timeline of the Georgia war.  It is positively scary.

At one point Georgia actually declared war on Russia, as well as declaring martial law and a general mobilization.  Half hour later Saako called for a cease fire, but he apparantly expected the US to back him up militarily against Russia.

The US might have been unhappy with him too because of his irrational exuberance.  The embassador to Russia declared later that Russia’s military response to the killing of their peacekeepers was justified.  Apparantly Saako got out of US control.

This is not good.  If the US instigates these kinds of incidents, accidents and untoward events always occur.  And the Netherlands apparantly withdrew its agents from Iran on the grounds that the US is going to attack in a few weeks. 

The incident in Georgia may somehow be connected to an attack on Iran, which is utter geo-strategic insanity.  But I thought that about Iraq too before the US attacked.

I think the US power system may be out of control in some fundamental way.  And there is no Dem opposition to its lunacy.

Paul in GA,

(I think I can safely predict that similar episodes to the Georgia debacle will occur in future as the American Empire continues to decline and no one in or out of the Beltway is willing to face reality. Empires rise; they also fall --- often messily. The best thing the USA could do is recognize this and begin to bring its own empire down in a controlled fashion.)

That’s the nut.  Britain and Holland are still “great nations” in terms of their economic, power, etc...though neither has a great many resources left.  Both used to be very impressive empires (of two different - mostly - sorts).  They were able to lose their empires but retain their national status by controlling the end of their empires.  It’s a trick that requires being able to read the writing on the wall.

I worry that we’re illiterate.

Someone commented on how scary this moment is, suggesting that it’s hard to concentrate on how things may get better after the election.  That’s something that Cyrena and i (and others no longer here) have talked about at length.

The more that the Bush/Cheney regime feels pressed into a corner...the more that the red in claw and fang neocons feel that their opportunity is fading...the more dangerous the situation if for the whole world.  This is (probably) this gang’s last best shot at what they’ve dreamt of for many a long decade. 

I hope that we make it, but i know that they don’t really care if we do or not.  They’ve got the Hitler in the Bunker disease: planning battles with troops that no longer exist, believing fervently that the tide can still be turned by luck or a masterstroke.

Tony Wicher: ‘… The possibility, however remote, that someone who does NOT believe in the imperial project of the ruling class might become president, perhaps owing to the incredible stupidity of the actions of that ruling class for the last eight years, is not not even admitted. ...’

Yeah, I think it’s settled, basic policy.  After all, it’s been continuously in force for more than 60 years now.  The business of a very large number of very, very important people is deeply involved in various phases of it, and world-wide political and economic structures have grown up which are dependent on it.  Certainly, before getting to run for any important post, Obama had to make it clear (and did made it clear) that he subscribed to the policy.  So the only way Obama can change this would be to turn out to be some kind of Manchurian Candidate who reveals once in office that he is not what he purported to be.  And if he did that, I think he’d promptly be neutralized by whatever means was necessary.

Cheney is going over to Georgia to heat up the New Cold War, which will also be stimulated by the billiion dollars that Biden got the Bushites.  This New Cold War would help McCain in the polls, especially given that his campaign is verging on the absurd.

But there may be another reason for Cheney’s trip as well.  In exchange for Israeli military help, Justin Ramaida and others have suggested that Georgia offered Israel a couple of air fields that could be used to attack Iran.  The Dutch think that a US-Israeli attack on Iran will occur in a matter of a few weeks.

There is usually American war hysteria when the US attacks someone but it would seem that would have to have some kind of false flag operation to make it credible as Defense. It is clear that the neocons of both parties would back it but there would have to be something else for the population to get behind it.  I don’t know what that would be.

I quite agree that the West overstepped the line and invaded territory established by tsarist Russia in the 19th century. Worse, the West has not read Anatoly Fomenko’s “History: Fiction or Science” (see vol. 4) where the Russian historian and mathematician argues that before the Romanovs made Russia western oriented, there was a Russia that was part of The Great Original (Mongolian) Empire, implying that Russia is what is left over of a much larger entity. Though Russia has not yet gone over to Fomenko’s history, Russia has not forgot the greater empire.

Russia stopped NATO and the U.S. and neo-capitalist efforts at “globalization” for the first time since the end of WW2. We again have a bipolar world. What it behooves Russia to do is to discover the alternative to neo-capitalism (other than Soviet style communism)if it wants to be more than a tick on the back of the world with a stomach full of gas. This is not the place to discuss the alternative, but it is worth thinking about it. A number of alternatives present themselves. One is “sovereign expenditure” (see Slavoy Zhizhak, Violence), i.e., spend what you have until you become one of the poor, join the world of the urban slums, and press for legalizing drugs--the only way to reflate the gas bag of “democracy” that is empty of oil and let people die at their own pace, peacefully, without a massive killoff a la Bush and Chaney and gang.

Anarcissie, September 3 at 11:41 am #

I don’t see why you think so.  It is clear that Obama believes in the imperial project of the U.S. ruling class.  (If he didn’t, he wouldn’t be where he is now.)
---------------------------------------------------
Well, that’s an airtight argument, isn’t it? No way out of that one. The possibility, however remote, that someone who does NOT believe in the imperial project of the ruling class might become president, perhaps owing to the incredible stupidity of the actions of that ruling class for the last eight years, is not not even admitted. Our economy, our military and our country are collapsing. Unilateralism has been a total failure and even most of the “ruling class” knows it too.

You want a 100% true-blue imperialist, it’s McCain. Unilateral U.S. military power is the only thing he understands. Obama has emphasized the importance of international law, of treaties, of alliances, of negotiation, of international consensus since “day one”.

me? i saw through bush from day one. i told my partner, who voted for nader in 2000 and whom i still adore, that we would be at war within the year. i was close. i’m 52 years old, i’ve lived through a lot of rotten administrations, clinton included. now that was a warmonger.

i have a different sense of obama. he’s going to be the president, not biden. and for what it’s worth, there are things about biden i’ve liked in the past. he’s not going to have the influence of, say, a dick cheney. obama is much smarter than bush, for one. and two? well, it was us that put obama where he is, it was all those millions of young people who heard peace talk and said, i’m in.

so i trust my gut AND my brain. and i’m comfortable with both. i’ve lived a long time. i’ve seen a lot of cruel things. and i’m still alive and i’ve still got enough hope for one more administration, the obama administration.

and if this fails, i’m outta here. i’m moving to france. c’est fixe.

By Anarcissie, September 3 at 10:12 am #

Tony Wicher: ‘… Not all use of military force is imperialism. It depends on how it’s used. The U.S. must remain engaged all over the world to build a stable international order. Your position amounts to isolationism. It will never happen and it will never work.’

So you think it would be good if the Russians and the Chinese swarmed all over South and Central America to “build a stable international order”?  Someone’s got to control those pesky Guatemalans?  Please explain.
---------------------------------------------------
Anarcisse,

First, I’m glad to be having such a constructive conversation with you. Let me explain my thinking.

Your concern as expressed above is about U.S. unilateralism. I agree with you that unilateralism IS imperialism. We have seen unilateralism at its worst under the Bush administration. Even Bush senior managed to get a fairly broad consensus for Gulf War I. He twisted a lot of arms at the U.N. but the coalition was fairly genuine. The coalition’s agreed purpose was to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, and Bush senior respected that and did not go on to Badhdad to “finish the job” as many suggested he should have. Of course, as a result, both the Kurds in the north and the Shia in the south whom Bush had encouraged to rebel against Saddam got seriously massacred. I remember a cartoon of the time showing Bush making the decision, saying, “Kurds, shmurds - this war’s a wrap!” Personally, I was against the whole thing. I thought we might as well let Saddam have Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia too, for that matter. Needless to say, the oil companies and merchants of war for whom Bush works did not agree. But I digress.

My point is this: there is a difference between internationalism and imperialism. It is natural to react to U.S. imperialist aggression by saying let’s bring the troops home and close all military bases outside the country. That used to be my own position and I’m very sympathetic to it. I still believe that it should be the ultimate objective. But I have come to believe that this, too, cannot be done unilaterally. U.S. power around the world cannot simply be withdrawn; it has to be replaced through a process of negotiation and strengthening of international law. This is what I believe Obama will be doing. He will substitute internationalism for imperialism.

I wish I knew writes (in part)

• “…“i need to acknowledge realities, but focus on positives because the negatives in the past have only landed me on meds!  all i know for sure is, from the depths of my gut, i would rather give obama the opportunity to be different than submit to the fact that we are simply doomed. “

~~~~~

THANK YOU (from the depths of my gut as well). I think you and moineau are actually in the majority with the rest of us, and that is a good thing.

It’s true that we won’t always agree, and that isn’t really a ‘problem’ at all. In fact it’s an advantage, at least when the discussions (agreements, disagreements, or in-between) come as a result of trying to educate ourselves and share information to that end.

However, after a while of reading and participating on these forums, the picture becomes clear enough, that there will always be the doomsdayers’ and the naysayers, REGARDLESS of the permanent or changing realities. They are clever, and they *DO* have an agenda, and many can be easily distracted by them. But at the end of the day, people like you WILL chose to give change an opportunity, rather than to submit to the fact that we are simply doomed.

“I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.”

(I don’t know who said that. – I’m not passing it off as an original though).

Good to hear from you…

to moineau and folktruther, thanks for the discussion. i do appreciate genuine insights, and whether i agree or disagree, i tend to turn to these boards just to know that there are people out there who actually give a crap about what is going on in our world above and beyond party “talking points”.

we certainly aren’t always going to agree on solutions (when we feel we can offer them). we aren’t even going to agree on what exactly the problems are.

the only thing i can control is the effort i put into educating myself, and my attitude. moineau, you and i seem to be of like ilk - i need to acknowledge realities, but focus on positives because the negatives in the past have only landed me on meds! 

all i know for sure is, from the depths of my gut, i would rather give obama the opportunity to be different than submit to the fact that we are simply doomed.

moineau: i just don’t believe this. i think obama wants to get osama bin laden, yes, but i believe he will stop the errant bombing by u.s. and nato forces. ...’

I don’t see why you think so.  It is clear that Obama believes in the imperial project of the U.S. ruling class.  (If he didn’t, he wouldn’t be where he is now.) That project requires war.  War requires sending in the troops.  Modern war requires air support, that is, attacking the enemy and whoever else happens to be standing around with bombs, rockets, guns, incendiary materials and sometimes poison gas from the air.  You don’t send the troops in without air support unless you want to get a lot of them killed “unnecessarily”.  One thing leads another.  Just connect the dots.

You are quite right, moineau, I am not listening to Obama.  I am watching what he does.  Like appoint a Zioist warmonger to be his Chaney VP.  Like voting FOR the lawless spying on Americans, and against a filibuster, after promising to filibuster it.
Or supporting Bush’s remilitarization of Georgia.

But you are listening to the compassion in his rhetoric, aren’t you.  Real sincere.  Not like Bush who campaigned as a “compassinate conservative” and then, after getting in office, set the US on a path of permanent war.  Obama is a much nicer man, isn’t he.  So therefore....so therefore.... he will do what he has to do suffering the power constraints he is confronted with.  Just like Bush, or you, or me, or Jesus, or any sainted leader you want to name.
Niceness is nice, but its a tough world we live in.

If you don’t want to go with fear, then be corageous and think in power terms, even if this conflicts with what you want to believe.

i just don’t believe this. i think obama wants to get osama bin laden, yes, but i believe he will stop the errant bombing by u.s. and nato forces. in his speech, he focused totally on osama bin laden. i’ve been listening closely to this man, and i think he has a compassion that is not acknowledged in your posts. you are not listening to obama. you are listening to something/someone else. what you are saying is supposition. perhaps mine is supposition too but i’ll bet my suppositions against your suppositions anyday.

listening to these republican women today on c-span hailing the glories of sarah palin and decrying the sexism of the media, obama, any time someone criticizes palin’s lack of experience, there’s a twisting of words and an atmosphere of accusation and fear. i’m so tired of the fear we’ve been subjected to for the last eight years. i’ve got to go for the hope now. i wish we all felt this way, but i suppose (there’s that supposition again) it’s simply asking too much.

again, i hear compassion from obama, and not the compassionate conservatism crap we’ve been fed for too long. if we don’t give him a chance, well, we can expect the same for a long time to come. mccain is a madman who thinks we should have stayed and finished the job in vietnam--perhaps the only person left in america who feels this way--and palin is a radical right-wing christian who is shown as the compassionate mother with the left hand while she slashes funds for teen moms with no place to live with the right.

talk about a war! me, i want peace and we’ve got a chance with obama. we can change this world because it’s about us, it’s not about him. i truly believe that.

Obama-Biden have advocated expanding the Afghanistan war to Pakistan.  Yesterday according to the NY Times this was done by sending US helicopters to attack a village where militants were supposed to be.  The attack killed 20 or so villagers, mostly women and children.  This is the first non-drone attack on Pakistani villagers, the drones that killed women and children strongly supported publically by McCain and Biden.

This attack is an act of war against a nuclear armed regime that is strongly allied economically with China.  China built a large highway across the Himalaya’s down to the new deep water port and complex Gwardar. China built this hugh port and complex to process Persian gulf oil.

This is what you are supporting if you support Obiden.  a war against a population cannot be conducted without killing women and children and without a systematic policy of torture.  It cannot be conducted against Pakistan without increasing the liklihood of thermonuclear war.  Obiden are going to INCREASE the war policies of the US, as will McCain. 

It is necessary to mobilize the population to oppose them both.

Tony Wicher: ‘… Not all use of military force is imperialism. It depends on how it’s used. The U.S. must remain engaged all over the world to build a stable international order. Your position amounts to isolationism. It will never happen and it will never work.’

So you think it would be good if the Russians and the Chinese swarmed all over South and Central America to “build a stable international order”?  Someone’s got to control those pesky Guatemalans?  Please explain.

It has been suggested by a number of truthers, Wish I knew, that the Gops may be sitting this election out and focusing on keeping their coalition togehter for future elections.  It is true that the appointment of Palin seems to support that view.  I suppose that there is a mixture of motives involved.

I sympathize with your, and Moineau’s, wanting something to cling to so you can sleep at night. 
This is the basis of support for Obama-Biden, hoping for the best.  It is also the basis of religion.  Unfortunately these power delusions are pernicious, and an obstacle to the reality-based truth.

I agree with you that the motives of Obama are different than those of the neocons.  The neocons are like Tony Wicker who want a US military committment all over the world, partially to defend apartheid Israel.

Obama is different. He is a politically talented opportunist who wants to promote his political career.  To do so he must ally with the neocons, such as the Dem neocon Biden.  That is why he is retreading all the old Dem hacks as advisors, and who will be part of his cabinet.  But whether Obama is an ideological neocon is irrelevant to his neocon policies, since they would follow Bush’s, probably more competantly enacted.  But competance is not necessarily a desired characteristic of one’s enemies.

By Fahrenheit 451, September 3 at 8:38 am #

@ KDelphi
I should add; I’m very close to giving up posting here.  It seems this forum is more interested in spouting opinions than finding solutions.  In these critical times, IMO, we need solutions, not pontifications.  Everyone states their opinions, but solutions are not forthcoming.  It’s always good to find kindred souls, so follow your bliss and happy trails.
---------------------------------------------------
Right now, “the solution” is to do everything possible to bring about a landslide victory for Obama and the Democratic party. Anyone who does or says anything that might diminish the size of the Democratic victory in November by one vote is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Once the Dems are in power, THEN is the time to push our progressive agendas.

“i am not being naive. i just need something positive to cling to so i can actually sleep at night.”

i’m with ya, wish i knew. i wish i knew too but i can listen and i can hope. i think you are right about the obama/biden team. they are looking toward diplomacy and from the top. we need that now.

how’s that for a solution?

By Anarcissie, September 3 at 6:48 am #

Tony Wicher: ‘… Obama will not eschew the use of military force but he is will follow a very different military policy, an intelligent one instead of a stupid one. It will be 10% military force and 90% negotiation, and it will be aimed at peace, not war.’

But that’s still imperialism in this case.  The only business the United States has in central Asia is imperialism.  If the U.S. leadership is not engaging in imperialism, then there is nothing for it to negotiate about there.

And imperialism requires war and repression, no matter how smart it is.
----------------------------------------------------
I disagree. Not all use of military force is imperialism. It depends on how it’s used. The U.S. must remain engaged all over the world to build a stable international order. Your position amounts to isolationism. It will never happen and it will never work.

@ KDelphi
I should add; I’m very close to giving up posting here.  It seems this forum is more interested in spouting opinions than finding solutions.  In these critical times, IMO, we need solutions, not pontifications.  Everyone states their opinions, but solutions are not forthcoming.  It’s always good to find kindred souls, so follow your bliss and happy trails.

Not “wanting Obama to win"--they just hated Hillary, and overplayed their hand! I THINK they hate Obama even more!HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! But, never fear--once they see what a non-progresive he is, they wil be glad they did it and, since they actualy hate McSame, wil say “Thank god we didnt have to clean up our own mess again!”.

Us backed Georgia atacking Russia with cluster boms and , maybe, mini-nukes--no wonder Dubya rushed to instal a “missile shield” (ie BOMBS) in Poland. Gawd, please help us get out of this one without startring WWIII!

so Folktruther, are you in effect theorizing that the neocon plan is in fact to get Obama elected? Hence the McCain/Palin ticket?

@ KDelphi
Yes, shallow choices, which will yield shallow solutions.  Denile is a powerful emotion that protects us from acceptance of responsibility for our lack of acceptance of responsibility for the choices we have made.  We will pay a very high price for this denile, for which we will denie.  And for which we will die!

i’d be willing to venture a guess that this piece is over the head of 75% of the US population.

if there hasn’t been a reality TV show about it, people have no clue what is going on with NATO and Russia right now.
the scariest thing is that too great a portion of that population is getting its info in snippits and catchy regurgitatable (sorry - is that a word?) soundbites from right wing talk radio and fox news.

Which brings me to my point of a highly important and I believe purposeful failing of this administration: E D U C A T I O N.

The neocons are not only imperialist warmongering madmen, but they also want a nation of uneducated drone - and might i add highly expendable - followers.

While Biden makes some foreign policy points that tweaks my peace-seeking brain, I don’t believe his motives are anything resembling that of the neocons.
I also believe that we have to play the hand we are dealt right now to some degree, so an Obama-Biden administration is going to have to make some unpopular decisions. But at the very least if we show the rest of the world that we (the intelligent citizens in this country) are not on board with the neocon plan, maybe that message alone is enough to change our course just a bit.

i am not being naive. i just need something positive to cling to so i can actually sleep at night.

It is apparent now that Georgia attack Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers with US consent, given that there were US and Israeli troops in the attack brigades. And now Bush, McCain and Obama-Biden all are agreed on rebuilding Geogia’s military under Saakashvili.  Biden initated a bill for the billion dollars.

This is so dangerous and delusional that Europe was spooked and opted for negotiations in their recent conferance rather than sanctions and other provocative measures, like incorporating Georgia and Ukraine into Nato.

Europe, like everyone else in the world, now realizes that Obama-Biden are going to follow Bush’s policy of Permanent War, the same policy as that of Israel.  But since the Elite political consensus moves to the right as the US loses economic and ideological power in the world, Obama-Biden plan to ESCALATE the Permanent War.

They are already on record for increasing the military, and expanding the Afghanistan war to Pakistan.  Biden is in favor of starting an Humanitarian war in Sudan, where there is Humanitarian oil in Dafur.  But in addition, they are continuing the beginning of the New Cold War agaisnt Russia, to prevent Western Europe from replacing the US by Russia in the world arena.

But the nation replacing the US as the world’s leading power is China.  Who is militarily allied to Russia.  China is increasing economically four times faster than the US, while Russia is increasing twice as fast, from lower economic bases.  The US cannot compete economically, which is why the US has converted its economic imperialism of the old Cold War to military imperialism.

This is not only a danger to the entire world, it is not even to the power interests of the American power system.  But it conforms to the interests of the Likud policies of Israel and American Zionists, and the military and oil corporations.  Obama-Biden are in thrall to them, as was Bush.  The rhetoric is different but the policies are the same.  And INCREASING THE MILITARISM under the Dems will leave no money for domestic concerns.  So class inequality will continue and the US will continue to degenerate socially and culturally, as a police state is installed to maintain the class inequality.

This is the only change we can believe in should we support Obama-Biden.

Thats a good ques. Faren! Sad that the american people dont look ready to shed the Imperial Presidency anytime soon---they just seem to want it to be someone they lIKE!

@ KDelphi,
Who knows what these mad men are about.  But, until they are out of office, anything is possible.  My question is; how can any president have so much power… WTF have we done?

I certainly think it is serious!(WHY is CHENEY there??) When I heard people saying, “we need to let it go about bush--he’;s almost gone. lets concentrate on the election”, I could see the point. But, I still think he could do alot of damage before he leaves, and Congress should get about impeaching his ass!Could someone from Congress who is well schooled in intl affairs make a statement that might calm things down, or do you think that, since its campaing season, they wil try to outhawk each other?

I heard it was “I see, said the blind man , as he shook his wooden leg"--off topic to the extreme!Thats what my GM used to say! LOL BTW, in addition to Cheney devlpmts. (aauuggh!), Georgia has admitted to using cluter bombs (wonder wher they got those--same place as Iraq aqnd Iran/Contra, I would guess). Norway (anad maybe others) have sided with Russia (like said above, what can they do) and, maybe we dont know the whole story--as stated above. I would like to know where to get it. Also, anyone heard about North Korea, “going back” (not sure what that means-doesnt sound good)on their nuke promises--why cant Dubya just keep his word for once in his life and take them off the terrorist watch list like he promised? Maybe he wants to incite more war so he can put off the election --prob wouldnt work, but look what happened in 2000? I saw the other day that they renamed the Project for the New Am.Century--The Project for Am. Progress, if I recall--its embarrassingly stupid.

If any of ya’ll think this game isn’t serious; you need to wake up...the neocons are serious and mean business and will attack anybody who tries to counter there ambitions...anybody without nuclear arms that is.
If I were an independent country I would surely want nukes.  How else to fend off U.S. aggression?

Tony Wicher: ‘… Obama will not eschew the use of military force but he is will follow a very different military policy, an intelligent one instead of a stupid one. It will be 10% military force and 90% negotiation, and it will be aimed at peace, not war.’

But that’s still imperialism in this case.  The only business the United States has in central Asia is imperialism.  If the U.S. leadership is not engaging in imperialism, then there is nothing for it to negotiate about there.

And imperialism requires war and repression, no matter how smart it is.

remember back in early 2007, when russian oil supplies slowed to a trickle to germany and poland over its row with belarus? there was huge anxiety in europe during one of the coldest winters on record.

europe will have to back down; they get 1/4 of their oil and 1/2 of their natural gas from russia. on euronews last night, russia was congratulating the european union for not placing sanctions on them and it seemed to be twisting in the knife.

sarkozy’s on his way to moscow this week; he’ll come back very humble. what else can europe do? actually, it is thinking hard about its energy future just as the u.s. is: it’s tough to be at the mercy of oil-gutted nations with totalitarian regimes.

of course, madman cheney might think it’s time to take out russia once and for all like he took out iraq, and get hold of that oil and russia’s rich reserves. but can anyone be THAT mad? it’s a dangerous game the u.s. is playing and i believe that europe (once again) will not play along, no matter their sense of the struggle.

The majority of the populations of South Ossetia and Abkhazia do not want to be ruled by Georgia. They have defied Georgia’s attempts to bully them into submission with economic sanctions and isolation for years.

Russia has provided support for these communities by providing Russian passports and trading partnerships (in exchange for access to Abkhazia ports on the Black Sea.)

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili decided to use military force to compel obedience to Georgian authority.

Russia responded (it said “to protect Russian citizens”) by overpowering the Georgian forces (with far fewer casualties than that amount of Russian fire power was capable of inflicting) and, after driving them out, launched a punitive mission into parts of Georgia, destroying mostly military bases and equipment.

I will leave the judgment of the morality of the participants in this conflict to History. On a practical level, the Russian’s have shown an admiral strategic restraint which the US has sadly lacked in its conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.