Gawd, this one was so old, I forgot about it, Amerigus.

I agree with you less than I did then. Obama has gone back on almost every thing he ran on in the primary. I dont know where you live, but if you werent gung-ho Obama , from day one, (or at least after Hillary gave her ‘command")you are not welcome. Fine. I only re-registered as Dem to try to vote W out--it didnt work.

I’m back with the socialist party, and I am very comfortable staying there.If you are comfortable with teh Dems platform, you should stay there. I have references from Mother Jones and others about the money Obama has taken from health insurance corp. I dont think that I need to repeat them here. I know taht all candidates do, but this is the most expensive election in the history of the world. It is ridiculous and unbelievabley arrogant for the US to do this with the way the economy is and hte global warming causing so many to be without food and water.

As for “squeezing providers"--who cares?? (I assume you mean insurance cos.--if you mean drs.--they get by just fine --living middle clas--in western Europe--let them do it here) They are one of the most proiffitable industries inthe uS! Every civilized country in the world has health care for all. They make money turning people down for life saving treatment. They dont give a damn about people. Why would you give a damn about them?

People that profit from war, death , and turning people down for health care, ned to go into another line of work

The left represents only about 30% of the country, meaning there will never be an administration swept in to grant the author’s political wish list.

Obama is a pragmatist and is far more trustworthy then Hillary or McCain (notwithstanding FISA, Afghanistan and coal plants) and has spoken about improving health care from the start.  I’m also a pragmatist - we need Obama in the White House for the block as the Kucinich wing battles the Pelosi/Hillary wing for the heart of the Dem party.

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for crushing the for-profit health care conglomerates and see that Obama’s plan falls far short - but unlike Hillary’s, his plan emphasizes cost-cutting and leaves much unspecified, leaving the door open for putting the squeeze on providers.

The “campaign contribution” conflicts-of-interest above make a common mistake of totaling individual contributor donations listed by industry as if the donations came in bundled. There has also been nothing mentioned above to imply Obama or his wife have performed in kind for any heath care industry donations.  I maintain Obama’s incremental change is the best path for the moment and that a vote for Nader, McKinney or Barr is a futile exercise in nihilism.

I urge every progressive to become active in their local Democratic party, taking advantage of existing apparatus for you to have a real influence in your community. There is a major influx happening today thanks to new and young voters. Staying out of the boots-on-the-ground activism just leaves to others the power to automatically put candidates on ballots, use enormous mailing lists and long-existing organizational frameworks. Don’t re-invent the wheel, oppose the corporatist stooges in your own district! I promise you’ll find more like-minded folks in your local Dem committees then you think.

MY Republican Party. I know youre trying to get me going, so I refuse. YOu really need to get a reality check. But youre too busy judging everyone else. You know how I am registered--I was dumb enough to opem up to you. We talked about some common experiences we had had. THEN__I DISAGREED WITH YOU! How dare I! It is reall bad form to take advantage when someone opens up to you.Mean ass.

KDelphi writes:

“I’m not the enemy--the govt --adn the party I belonged to for so many years, just treats me like it.”

~~~~

Uh...that would be the Republican Party if I remember correctly from you earlier mega posts, right?

Well, I don’t know if it would make you feel any better for me to remind you, -AGAIN-, that your republican party has treated millions this way. So many have wound up just as dead as your dad and mine. (Mine even had insurance).

You ARE the enemy of the American government and the neolib leaders of the Dem party.  That is why their supporters here attack you so much.  You see through much of the professional obfuscation used to justify the Dem support of wars, of Dem destruction of Roosevelt reforms, and of Dem leader support for an American police state. 

And you say so in an unprofessional way, and they can’t stand it.  So they call names which they substitute for sustained thought.

To KDelphi… your statement “govt. doesn’t run on hope but action” notice please that the politicians are careful not to show their hands to their nemesis who are in power and would just steal their ideas.
“your desire to increase govt. power”. Last night on the news I see they just nationalized Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac”.  Granted they are keeping their fingers crossed, but isn’t it interesting that they realized their system was lacking something crucial?

LOL--I’m not so tough.I’m just hurt and angry. I grew up in Ohio--but I lived up there with my dad for about 2 yrs. He played the sax in a jazz band up there for awhile. The only Danish guy in the band!! LOL! He was a great guy.He died in the Bronx in a Hospice (he’d worked so hard to buy a farm--he grew tired of the city)when he developed brain cancer adn the insurance at the small company he had just started working for dropped his coverage.My mom in Ohio was a drug addict and threw him out. She kept breaking in my house here, so we sent him to NY to live with my sister. My mom spent al his savings on god knows what, so he died in an indigent hospice--but they were SO good to him you would never know it.I know I am opening myself up here-so be it. Pounce. It’d be easy to do. Time would be better spent on the right wing fascists that get in here.I’m not the enemy--the govt --adn the party I belonged to for so many years, just treats me like it.

Your dad taught at Wayne state, Adelphi?  That was a great school, a lot of radicals there.  Freezing cold in Detroit, just as it was in Chicago.  If you grew up there, it’s no wonder you’re so tough and smart.  Otherwise you’d have been dead long ago.

PhDPhDPhD--Heard it all my life. My dad had one. My sister has one. I have an MS. So the f*ck what. Remember the old MENSA ?? LOL. My dad was invited to join. He went to a meeting (back when psychologists still thought IQs meant something)and, being all eager to hear about the “smartest people in the world”, asked about it, and he said, “What a bunch of intellectual snobs! All they do is sit around and talk about how smart they are.I dont see that that accomplishes anything.”. Teaching at Wayne State Univ. accomplished something. Testifying as an expert witness against Ford , for the exploding Pinto accomplished alot (Human Factors Engineering) Helping NASA with the centrufuge at WPAFB was great. My sister teaching economics at SUNY/Purchase accomplishes alot. Talking about how dumb everyone else is--accomplishes alienating people and losing elections.

I’ve been baited, I admit.  You might have a case for my ignorance but for stupidity, you do not.  Your perceptual skills are sorely lacking.  Regardless of your ad hominem denigrations, in the plural, of my intelligence and advanced degree, your opinion Folktruther is negligible.  I have been on TD for a very long time and anyone who had paid any attention knows my credentials and you aren’t owed any updated explanation.  You seem to think that vague implications provide some sort of justification for your weak accusations.  That is one reason why I called you feeble.  It looks as though your emotionally charged one-track ideology consistently trips you up.  You may be an educated person and can talk about mathematical models, but, surprisingly then, you do not seem to know what fallacious reasoning is and how you are an easy mark for it.  You must be in league with those academics you described yesterday who can only handle one specialty at a time. Except you do try to display some, albeit, vague expertise at math models in combination with the economic political system of marxism in some effort to synthesize them. For instance, what exactly do you base your statement, I have to say that the universities appear to have hit a new low recently in turning out Educated dimwits.? What are the names of the universities that have turned out the Educated dimwits?  And name the dimwits.  This is also called ad hominem fallacy or can also be called the fallacy of accident, the collecting an entire universe of subjects and depreciating every member.  Since it is your accusation, the burden of proof is on you to provide verifiable evidence.

Your interest in deriving a new ideology from marxism is more vague as you described it than you can imagine.  What could you possibly mean by the inclusion of ethnicity, racial groupings and economic groupings under the rubric of a math model?  This in no way gives a clue to the weakness of marxism critique and, disconnectedly, does not give any reason that there is or has been an alleged influence of Zionism in the US power system. This is an appeal to ignorance fallacy.  There are more insidious reasons for that influence such as the number of wealthy zionistas in this country that give Israel support, the perception of a strategic importance of Israel in the middle of an Arab coalition to the United States, and there are others.  I am not saying it is right, just what is the reality. 

If you can, please describe your understanding of the social innovations that will allow a possible development of a math framework for your concept regarding the viability of a “second generation” ideology, so we, I, can check your references.  Also could you be a little bit more accurate by saying the “Republican corporate excuse” of a “bogus war on Terrorism of the 21st, century?” Also when you say “The American population was ideologically disarmed by the mainstream obfuscation and deception of American ideology,” could you briefly describe that ideology as you perceive it and explain what you mean by the ambiguous phrasing of “mainstream obfuscation and deception?”

You know Folktruther this a rather isolated conversation we are having and really has nothing to do with the topic of this forum and we ought to take it elsewhere.  I would be willing to discuss these things with you via email.  If interested I will provide an email address.

Effete!  Effete! You cut me to the quick, Dr Shenonymous.  I have been called many, many names in my lifetime but effete has never been one of them before.  Most people don’t think of ex-communist dock workers as effete but with your acdemic background, and customary imprecision, you have innovated a new defamation.  I congratulate you.

And I see that you have expanded beyond adjectives into nouns, a whole new area.  I forget whether you called Hedges feeble and me reactionary, or Hedges reactionary and me feeble, but you can now refer to both of us as reactionary feebs, just like the adolescents who you intellectually resemble.

But you never told us, Dr Shenon, what your degree was in. Adjectives?  Phys ed?  Education?  Theology? Auto repair?  No, auto repair is actually useful, it wouldn’t be that. Something much softer no doubt.

I remember when I gave some lectures to a graduate seminar on math models years ago how appalled I was by ignorance and disinterest of students, and by the backbiting of the faculty.  My wife had the same ordeal in her academic experience.  I have to say that the universities appear to have hit a new low recently in turning out Educated dimwits.

But, in addition to providing comedy relief Dr Shenon, you have put your finger on a crucial characteristic of my persona, my ideological one track mind.  As you doubtless don’t know, since you are obviously ignorant of even schoolbook history, the 20th century saw the rise of marxist theory as the opposition and ruling idology of much of the world.  It was repressed in the US during the War on Communism, which is why liberalism, a conservative ideology in most capitalist polities, is the progressive ideology in the US.

When the War on Communism of the 20th century segued into the bogus War on Terrorism of the 21st, the American population was ideologically disarmed by the mainstream obfuscation and deception of American ideology.

What I am interested in is helping to form a second generation ideology derived from marxism that includes ethnicity and racial groupings as well as economic groupings.  This is the grreat weakness of marxism critque, and is largely the reason that the influence of Zionism in the US power system was overlooked for so long.  It is possible to develop a math framework that implies such a conception, due to conceptual innovations associated with American social science.

This is why it is useful to discourse with the more perceptive truthers on the Internet, which, unfortunately, you are not one.  But even so, it is helpful to encounter Educated stupidity and ignorance, as it gives me some idea of where people are at ideologically at the present time, and I thank you for your assistence.

Elite is such a broad term, Leefeller.  It could mean anything from royalty and nobility (in this country it would be the “old families” who think they inherited the right to be first) to the wealthy regardless of how they came by their money, and we know that money buys elitist rank whether they wear cowboy hats, zuchettos, kippahs, topis, or turbans.  Or, it could be the “chosen” ones selected by a god, of which there are at least three different Abrahamic groups in the world that make that claim, oh, four if Mormons are included, and of course there would be a yippieeee war to see which one would survive.  We cannot forget the Dalai Lama!  Would he be the first of the first to get in the boat?  The Chinese Committee might have something to say about that regardless that the ship is going under!  How about the highest ranking militarymen, they have might on their side if not god?  There are also those who are the best at athletics such as the medal winners of the Olympic games, or sports stars such as golf, tennis, futball, baseball, basketball, soccer, sailing, rowing, and ... Then how about the elite in science, or chess masters?  The winners of spelling bees and summa cum laudes?  The best doctors?  Forget about lawyers and supreme court judges for my part they can drown first.  Hollywood and the theatre, and the music world also have their elite, and the world of literature as well. And cannot forget the best artists.  And last but not least, we have our “elite” politicians, or is that last one just a big joke?

Good grief, a double-wide sinking Noah’s Ark would not be big enough!

She

“Being on board a sinking ship is not a good feeling, is it still women and children first? “

She, responded by saying

”Asking if women and children still go first seems to be saying you want to go first, Leefeller?”

Not at all, it was something I remember from old movies and now the way things have been happening, it would be the elite who believe they should go first.

An effete such as yourself, Folktruther, is not really worthy of further discussion.  I will end my conversation with you with this post by saying you apparently have nothing more than banter to contribute.  You continue to speak in contentless generalities denigrating universities and colleges as a whole with your usual fallacious strategy by not specifying any one institution nor any particular academic practice, which in effect makes your criticism absolutely useless.  You obviously have not spent much time seeking higher education.  I can only suppose you do not have a well-rounded education that has left you biased and prejudiced against those who do.

Your academic friends may not be brilliant simply because they aren’t.  I know plenty of professors who are not the brightest lights in the galaxy of academia.  However, on the whole, in my experience, academics are extraordinarily intellectual and sophisticated.  They are superbly well-rounded thinkers.  On the other hand, you appear to be too shortsighted to notice whether anybody can think beyond their one specialty or appreciate anyone with a vocabulary more than humdrum.  One-track minds like yourself, and possibly those one-track college acquaintances could be mentally hamstrung by their limited capacity to think liberally because they were only able to handle the confines of ‘a specialty’.  This kind of narrow or restrictive quality of education is one of the roots of conservativism and possibly explains much of the attitude you expressed on this forum.  And with this I will give it over to others to deal with Folktruther, who seems to lack any imagination at all.

Folktruther writes:

• “..The universities seem to be degenerating like the rest of Ameria’s institutions, only first and faster.  the universities, with notable exceptions, are intellectual warehouses in the Marketplace of Ideas.”

And, you would know this…..HOW? (that the universities ‘seem’ to be degenerating?) Or, is that just another one of your armchair opinion?

This is odd as well:

• “I have a number of friends who are academics and somehow I never noticed how brilliant they were, particularly in political and ideological matters.  Generally they have mastered a specialty and pursue a career based on it.”

Ideology has zero to do with ‘brilliance’ and not a whole lot to do with pure academics, aside from being aware of the various ideologies held by various and sundry figures or groups that have any bearing on the whole.

Do you even know what ‘academics’ are Folktruther? They generally make their careers in ACADEMICS. If they leave to pursue a career based on what the mastered, then they aren’t academics anymore. Academics are either always learning, or always teaching, and it’s usually a combination of both.

Academics (medical students) aren’t really academics once they master their specialty (gastroenterology maybe) and go off to practice it (same a pursuing a career based on it). Most of the ones I know are pretty brilliant, even if it doesn’t happen to be a political brilliance, (why would I care if the gastroenterologist was a brilliant political mind?) and their ideology shouldn’t have a damn thing to do with whatever I need for her/him to know.

As for the universities degenerating, I’ve noticed the exact opposite, and that’s under a very rigorous compare/contrast mode of observation. I’ve been able to do that with a few universities here in my own home state, comparing them between the 70’s and now…first hand, up close and personal. They’re either all better, or mine are the notable exceptions. I think MOST are better.

My God, you have a doctorate, Shenonymous!  No wonder you’re so intelligent and know such a lot about the power process! And here I thought you were just calling names.  Well, that throws an entirely different light on the inane comments… excuse me, Dr. Shenonymous, on your brilliant insights into the human condition.  I sit abashed before my intellectual superior.

But you know, Dr Shenonymous, I have a number of friends who are academics and somehow I never noticed how brilliant they were, particularly in political and ideological matters.  Generally they have mastered a specialty and pursue a career based on it.

The universities seem to be degenerating like the rest of Ameria’s institutions, only first and faster.  the universities, with notable exceptions, are intellectual warehouses in the Marketplace of Ideas.  And the warehousers are midbrow elitists who are offended by ideological deviation.

Except for you of course.

So is my Ph.D., Folktruther.

OK Tony,

Took a while, but I wanted to search as thoroughly as I could.

And, the results are...zip. I can’t find anything that Barack Obama has said in any ‘direction’ on resolution 676.

It is still doing it’s normal thing in the House of Congress, and I don’t know how it will fare. But, as we know, it has to go through that part of the act first, before it would get to the Senate, wherein Obama and McCain would then have to record a position. I don’t think it’s gonna happen between now and the end of the year, but who knows?

Your higher intellignece is an inspiration to us all, Shenonymous.  Keep up the GOOD, DEMOCRATIC ideas.  And always remember, the thesaurus is your friend.

So pleased you are able to nod to the higher mind, Folktruther.  It shows a glimmer of acumen.  Good bye

I really like your adjectives, Shenonymous.

Hedges indulges in REACTIONARY exaggerations.

Clinton destroyed welfare and the unions by convincing Gops with his GOOD DEMOCRATIC ideas.

The VAGUE claims, as you put it, of Clinton’s administration’s rigging of economic statistics were analazed by Kevin Phillips and Paul Roberts, among other economic specialists.

My assertions were UNSUPPORTED.

My SLEEK evasions were STAGNANT.

My comments were too FEEBLE for your high intellectual standards.

If adjectives could do it, Shenonymous, you’d be right up their with Clinton, Obama and Biden.

Well let’s see Folktruther.  Hedges can always be trimmed and actually ought to to help them/him grow.  Since I am not a fan of the author of this article, I couldn’t care less what he thought as he is known for his reactionary exaggerations and misinformation.

If Clinton passed anything with the GOP support then he must have persuaded them with some damn good Democratic ideas. Far as rigging numbers, that is what you will have to prove since it is your vague claim.  The health bill was an issue but there will always be one or two that just can’t get passed with the consistently self-serving in-the-medical-industry-pocket GOP. 

If you think the Dems have sold out their rank and file, I suggest you review the video of the Democratic convention.  An increasing number of people (in droves really-try the Tallahassee Florida Baynews 9.com) are signing up with the Democratic party.  Everything you said was unsupported.  Just listen to the Pew Research Center report and Andy Kohut’s reports every night on the PBS News Hour; the statistics have been in favor of Obama and the Democrats even with the McInsane/Palin ticket! 

Your attempt at a slick evasion of the truth is stagnant.  There are better things to do than continue to scrap such a feeble commenter, so aloha.

What’s unsupported, Shenonymous?

Did Clinton or did he not pass the welfare ‘reform’ bill with Gop support?

Did he or did he not pass Nafta with Gop support, to help destroy the unions?

Were the inflation numbers rigged during his administration or were they not, eroding the payouts of social security and pensions?

Did he or did he not back off the heath bill after the initial attempt?

Is Obiden or is he not a corporate Dem?

I assume that the Dems will do in the future what they have done in the past, and sell out their rank and file.  If that is a personal and private opinion it is not an unsupported one and is held by an increasing number of people.  Including Hedges.

• “The POINT is, that, now that several people in the health care community, writers for TD, CD and others, have written articles concerning Sen. Obama’s “plan”. I wil leave it to you to read them and decide what you think. I would say that I do not think that they are highly complimentary.”

No KDelphi, the POINT is that you are out there in NeverNever Land, bouncing off of the flippin’ clouds or something.

What ‘writers’ are you talking about, and what health care community people are you talking about? Chris Hedges (who authored this piece) damn sure isn’t a health care professional, or part of the ‘health care community’. So who else??? We ALREADY KNOW that the real ‘health care community’ has been largely in favor of a single-payer system for ages, and we’re a whole hell of a lot closer to perpetrating THAT awareness than we were even 4 years ago. But it STILL isn’t gonna happen overnight.

Meantime, you’re a seriously late bloomer if you think any of this is new. We’ve been dealing with the health care issues and the atrocious fraud and greed of it all for YEARS on the local levels, and making some serious headway. In fact, here in southern California we’ve been able to come up with a pharma program that makes meds available for anybody, (regardless of whether or not they have medicare, or any other health coverage) for the same $4.00 co-pay that any person WITH medical coverage might have. In many cases of course, even people who do have current coverage still aren’t properly covered for drugs, INCLUDING life saving drugs. It’s local level coalition building that works for those so inclined to get off their asses to do something and get the stuff passed into the civil legislation of our political structure. So IOW, we haven’t waited on the crooks in DC to save us from the crimes they’re perpetrating against us.

Anyway, we’ve had a concerted effort in the works for over 4 years now, sponsored in part by just one organization of many, who actually DO something!!

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/

Anyway, so you’re now sprouting off about these unnamed people of ‘health care communities’ that are supposedly weighing in on “Obama’s Plan” and how they aren’t very complimentary.

First question: Do YOU even *KNOW* what “Obama’s Plan” is YOURSELF???

I didn’t think so.

Never mind the rest of the questions.

I’m posting this at both TD and CD for KDelphi just to cover those two bases. 

Everybody is hearing you KDelphi or are you not reading the Truthdiggers and CommonDreamers at TD and on CD?  You might trying to channel your passion directly to Obama or McInsane.  Your reference to how the rest of the world feels about America is futile and a misguided effort on the topic of universal healthcare in America, single payer or not.  But of course you can spend your energy wherever and however you like on whatever you like.  Just trying to be helpful so that your tirades at least have some effective use.  Over and out on this topic.

Have we put you over the edge KDelphi?  You might be more specific, that is, if you can.  The shotgun effect only works in Texass where there are a lot of a**holes and the shooters are incabable of making any distinctions.

Geez! You gusy are fuckin’ ridiculous! LOL!!!

New TD readers need to be very careful.  Folktruther always gives an unsupported personal scheme of things, private and subjective opinions calculated to try, pitiful as he does, to beef up the really vacant and desiccating programs of the Republicans.  His doubts do not amount to anything and ought to be taken with a half a grain of salt.

You’ve got to understand, KDelphi,that the Dems are helping to DISMANTLE the New Deal reforms of Roosevelt. Clinton gutted welfare in the mid-ninties and passed Nafta which helped destroy the unions.  The economic statistics were rigged during hispresidency to erode the payouts of social security and pensions.  After his initial defeat on health care in 1992, he never went back to it.

It is this party that you are relying on to lead the passage of a health care bill.  It may happen but I doubt it.

Sen Obama said (about a year ago) that he was “looking favorably “ at “HR676”. (Not MY words). About 6 mos ago, when the campaign was here, a spokesperson for the campaign, said that “he is stil looking at it”. About 2 wks. ago ( i didnt write down the date) someone from the campaign (there were Obama campaing workers here) said that he was “still looking at it”. The POINT is, that, now that several people in the health care community, writers for TD, CD and others, have written articles concerning Sen. Obama’s “plan”. I wil leave it to you to read them and decide what you think. I would say that I do not think that they are highly complimentary. I get emotional over this issue. I dont know why that would concern you so much, unless you think people are deciding how to vote by reading my posts. (lol)If you would prefer that I just not comment here--there are plenty of other places. I just didnt know that a small group of Obama suportes were allowed to dominate a forum and not call it, say, “Obama supporters site”.If you think my posts are “crazy” or “stupid"--laugh! Why keep bothering to write long essays telling me how wrong I am? I may not be able to put it like Chris Hedges, or other authors--but ai am obviously not alone in m criticism of theplan. THAT is what you should be worried about--not me and my scrawny ass vote.Since most of it is opinon (I dont post “facts”, for the most part), it’s subjective as to whether it’s is right or wrong.So is your opinoun of me, and mine of you.

By KDelphi, September 6 at 9:09 am #
• “I would suggest that anyone still convinced tha5t “single payer wont work” , pleasr check out the story on Common Dreams (The Doctor Orders) and see how the healthcare professional ssee it.”
KDelphi,

This isn’t new. So why don’t you stop with the straw man arguments. I can’t find a single post here from anyone claming that the single payer health plan wouldn’t work. That is NOT what anybody has been saying. And being from a family of health care professionals, I KNOW they are just as much in favor of such a plan as the people who need access to health care, and that would be ALL of us, at some point in time.

Again, for the purpose of exposing your straw man BS, nobody is opposing single payer health coverage, and Obama has explicitly stated that IF HE WERE SETTING UP SUCH A SYSTEM FROM SCRATCH, he would set it up AS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM!!

Since it has NOT been set up that way, it means working with the one you have to create and provide improvements. And part of that means setting up a system that can pave the way to something far closer to a single payer system. All of that has actually been addressed right here on this forum, and you’ve conveniently ignored it. You’ve conveniently ignored the posts from those who have reminded what Chris Hedges did not, which was the fact that Obama HAS proposed a medicare-type plan that people could in fact access, and might just eventually give way to something far better when the privates find themselves out of the ‘game’ in competition with the public sector. You don’t bother with anything like that KDelphi, ever. Too much logic for all of the emotionalism?

~~~~~~~

Tony Wicher,

Sorry I missed this post from you earlier:

By Tony Wicher, September 3 at 8:30 am #
cyrena,
So far I have not been able to find a single Obama quote either supporting or not supporting HR 676. If it’s a house resolution, how could he have voted on it before it passed the House? You’re a better scholar than me, cyrena - could you research this one? Thanks.
~~~~~

I can in fact look, except of course you’re right. If it’s a house resolution, he CAN’T have voted on it!! Still, I’ll look to see what I can find since those who are making the accusations obviously will never cite anything themselves. It’s just more of the same old shit. Like KDelphi inferring here, that anyone has claimed that a single payer system ‘won’t work’. NOBODY has claimed that...AT ALL!

Anyway, I’ll check it out when I get back. I’m still moving...and that has been one hell of a hardship, but I know it could be worse. At least I found a place to move to. Far too many others don’t even have that.

I would suggest that anyone still convinced tha5t “single payer wont work” , pleasr check out the story on Common Dreams (The Doctor Orders) and see how the healthcare professional ssee it. I rest my case. No health care--no vote. No health care--no vote.

A comment somehow got lost, KDelphi.  I wanted to say that the only place there is a free market is in liberal economic textbooks.  National economies are managed markets.  But in the US the owners of the corporations were so powerful that they did not let the government develop an effective coordinating body, as occurs in European nations or even more so in China.  China’s form of capitalism is now growing four times fasters than those in the West.

By Folktruther, September 4 at 7:08 pm

• “I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either.”

This is a good thing self-identified folktruther. You and KDelphi can agree with each and revel in the misery together. They say there’s someone for everyone out there. Are you both aware of the Private Message system that TD provides here, so that you can converse together, to your hearts content, and not have to deal with such spiteful and malicious people who expose you for what you are? I mean, if you didn’t put the IED’s out there in a public forum, then nobody would call you on them.

And of course we already KNOW, that I’m not the only one you’ve had run-ins with on this forum. In fact, you started off wrong, trying to shove your bullshit ideology down everybody else’s throat.

And you’re pissed because you’ve been an unsuccessful troll? Whose fault is that? You blasted in talking all kinds of partisan trash, pigeon-holing folks that you don’t know and can’t match wits with, into whatever categories you’ve made up in your own mind. Then you get your feelings hurt when you find yourself exposed for the non-substance that you represent, at least in most of what you portray via your posts.

The way you bitch and complain about the other posters here, one would think you were paying for your presence and not getting your money’s worth. Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to participate on this forum? Or is this just the site you were assigned as part of the greater troll operation? Do you get paid by the word, or do you have to produce ‘converts’?

Seems to me like this site is a godsend for people like you and KDelphi. She gets a full spectrum of therapy, even as she complains about health care. Do you know how much a professional would charge her to listen to all of this whining? Same with you. Do you think any other publisher would actually put your crap out there with their names behind it? Of course not.

So what are you complaining about? You get to see your words in print, and think you’re real important, even if nobody else does.

If the US had an ACTUAL “free market” (without all the govt subsidies for big oil, big agri-business, etc.) and there was sufficient estate taxes (so that these dumb basterds would never be admitted to Yale)and they werent born with silver spoons--half of the neo-cons would FALL RIGHT OFF any level playing field!Oh I’m sure Bush would have been pres. without his daddy and his Nazi grandpa, Prescott. Sure. If Bush, Cheney, Rummy,Kerry, etc. had to claw their way to the top--they would have died. So, its socialism for THEM and capitalism for all the rest of us. You Friedman guys are so ful of it--it is good that the world is finally waking up to how ridiculous your ideas are. Hear the “death rails”??

I agree with KDelphi, Cyrena, I don’t like you either.  You appear to be a spiteful, malicious person who can’t disagree with someone without calling them a liar or their being dishonest.

This is the first site I’ve visited where the Dem pseudo-progressives were so meanspirited and had such a vulgar outlook.  I suppose as the Elite political consensus continues to right this will attract more and more of this kind of gutter debate, since the only defense of the indefensible is an ineffectual attempt at intimidation.

When Obiden is elected, as he probably will be, and progressives begin to understand that nothing is going to change for the better, they may break ideologically from the Dems.  But at that time progressives will be in a worse position, since the political interests for repression will have switched to the Dems, as it did during the Vietnam war.

At that point the thought control bill initiated by Jane Harman and the Zionists may well be passed, as it was alredy was in the house, with only three Dems voting against it.  In which case both the Gop and Dem Internet cites may well be dominated by the same kinds of people and the same kind of discourse.

By cilcsster, September 3 at 2:54 pm #

“Marshall, everything I’ve put on here about my case is true, it’s documented and can be verified!”

Cilcsster - I’m not questioning the facts of your case. I’m giving you the stats that describe the larger picture.

“In each country there are areas remote where health coverage will not be anything like in metro areas.”

It’s not just “remote areas” I’m talking about; it’s the amount of medical technology available per capita.  This leads to longer wait times because they can only serve a fixed number of patients in a given time.

“...in California, I was surviving on social security and could not afford any health insurance!”

I agree that the main problem in the U.S. is coverage.  But the problem isn’t as bad as people paint it, despite your specific situation.  The number of uninsured is definitely too high, but the solution isn’t putting it all under government control.  Just because something isn’t working as well as it should doesn’t mean it needs to be scrapped altogether.

“The tax cuts that Bush put thru are for the top 5% of the income scale, the lower income Americans get nothing.”

Liberal myth. The tax cuts lowered ALL tax brackets, and ALL taxpayers received rebates.  If your family makes less than about $25K in this country, you pay no federal income tax anyway, so naturally you wouldn’t receive a rebate.  That’s how a progressive tax system works, and it’s why the richest 1% already pay pay almost 40% of all taxes.

“Taxes are there for a reason, to help protect all Americans.”

History teaches us that governments don’t take care of people well.  People take care of themselves better if they’re given the means to do so, and a strong economy gives them that means; not government aid.  Obama will increase far more than beer and cig taxes; numerous taxes will have to increase to pay for his social programs, global warming initiatives, and a retooling of our health care system.  That’s the reason you’ve seen no actual numbers from him on how he’d pay for all this: because the reality would scare voters.

“Pass a bill that says no members of the American Government get any health care before ALL AMERICANS get health care!”

Then those govt. employees would never get covered, since 37% of all uninsured Americans live in households that make at least $50K but still choose NOT to own health insurance.  And 20% aren’t U.S. citizens.

“a person who rejects the science of biology, chemistry and physics for pie in the sky.  Could her ilk take on the challenge of developing life-saving drugs and foods for the betterment of the whole world?”

Luckily the free market and academia develop these things, not the vice president.  Your desire to increase govt. power (by restricting free market) only opens the door for more future govt. interference in these important endeavors.

“Just what the hell are her qualifications besides having children?”

Better than Obama’s… and she’s only the veep.  Obama’s never run anything, he’s never originated legislation that became law; he’s got little history but is big on “hope”.  Unfortunately the govt. doesn’t run on “hope”, it runs on action.

If you find this fun--have at it. Youre not convincing anyone that isnt part of the"protect Obama at al costs” group. I dont want to play anymore, and I’m sure as hell not going to read those long posts.You need to do something besides teach 24/7. Yep , thats personal. Yep saying I’m crazy or stupid will erally win me over. I just dont understand your purpose.-Lets just ignore each other from now on. When you say “we”’ , by the way, who do you mean? Do you guys own this site or something? Because you seem to be of th imperssion that you do. Youre insulting, and youre, youre smart. But I just dont like you.I think youre sharp tongued, adn you delight in proving other people wrong,( or at least “catxchihng something” NO matter what--if you can play “gotcha ya” its your biggest joy in life.I will nevefr understand why my opinion became so impt to you--you dont seem to think much of me.I wish you would uise your considerable skills for a more useful purpose. Go talk to somebody who gives a damn wht you think now.

1 of 2
Oh KDelphi,

The irony/paradox is indeed so very cruel. There is no doubt in my mind, that you’re intentions are overwhelmingly good and worthy. You just don’t ‘get’ much. Sometimes you appear to, and then, you don’t.

You see, I honestly DO pay attention to what you say in these posts, and you consistently contradict yourself, time after time after time. And guess what? That’s JUST FINE…at least in *my* book, it’s a GOOD thing! Or, at least it SHOULD be a good thing, if it allows you to examine those contradictions to get to a fuller understanding of your own beliefs and personal ideology, in context with the reality of the rest of the world. Problem is, your posts at least, don’t really give any indication that you’ve utilized the process to that end.

So there is a very cruel irony in nearly everything you post, because your comprehension/perception/interpretation of the input from others is ‘off’

Like this:

• “…My profs. taught me to think for myuself, and I will continue to do that. When they thought I was wrong, they heard me out, then explained…”

One of many cruel ironies here. You are totally oblivious to the fact that many people on this forum, (myself included) have done (or attempted to to), EXACTLY THE SAME THING that you credit your professors with. Hearing you out, EXPLAINING when they thing you’re wrong, (or in my case, not even calling it ‘wrong’ but just providing further context and information that might help you to continue the development of your ‘thinking for yourself) and you don’t get it. Instead, you call it an ‘attack’ and a personal attack at that!

Then this:

• “…cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you directly.”

KDel…the LAST thing you’ve done, is to keep anything on this board IMPERSONAL. You’ve made it about as PERSONAL as it gets, making it all about YOU, ALL of the time. If somebody was reading through these blogs for the first time they’d see yours and think this was some sort of an on-line self-help therapy session. And while that is acceptable enough, TO A DEGREE, you very personal ideology in such a stand alone posture simply is not relevant to the larger picture. So in that respect, your opinion DOESN’T matter to me. It ONLY matters to the degree that I actually CARE about the individual, because the ‘individual’ is also a member of the group of all of us.

The problem (or one of the many) is that in operating from your own (selfish) center of reference, you make ASSUMPTIONS, about the whole, and from your posts, we see that your assumptions are always wrong.

For instance, in this very post, you go on and on about you and your social work, as if I had somehow dismissed or otherwise made such work appear to be ‘insignificant’, when in fact I’ve spent the entirety of my life doing probably more SOCIAL WORK than your limited imagination could even conceive. I’ve spent my life IN THE SERVICE OF my fellow human being, regardless of their race, creed, ethnicity, nationality, class, gender, ideology or political persuasion. And I’ve done it because I’ve CHOSEN to do it. Were that NOT the case, I wouldn’t be spending (and seemingly WASTING) my time communicating with YOU!!

For you to suggest that my own reactions/responses to you would somehow be different if you were supportive of Obama is an insult to my intelligence, and a display of just how shallow you are yourself, even ABOUT yourself.

And no KDel, my responses to you are not a matter of anger. That’s not to say that I don’t get pissed off about a lot of things, especially in these times that we’re all at least attempting to live in. But don’t presume the arrogance of the position that I am ‘angry’ with you, or even ‘attacking’ you. If nothing more, I have a great deal of empathy for you, and it would be more than fair to say that I do experience a great deal of frustration when I observe or otherwise perceive any group or individual involved in self-sabotage.

Part 2 of 2 KDelphi

On an *entirely* UNrelated matter, I don’t much give a shit WHO you vote for. Seriously..I don’t. If I believed that your one vote could or would make the difference between the continued misery of another 4 years of McCain and the opportunity to stop the destruction, and change the direction, I might. Since that isn’t the case, it doesn’t matter. But your opinions do matter to you, as well as to anyone else who might be affected by them. So I respect them for what they mean to you.

However, I’ll continue to call you on anything that you present on a public forum that I know to be a falsehood, or a lie. As a general rule, you manage to avoid putting any obvious lies out there, because nearly everything you say is couched in personal opinion, because it’s always about…YOU. So you avoid (for the most part at least) presenting your opinion as fact. If you do though, I’ll call you on it, and it won’t be because I’m ‘angry’. It’ll just be because I’m committed to truth and reality; no surprises there, for anyone who reads through these posts.

And now my friend, I’m off to do some more of my social work. Here’s the basic model for that. I sit or stand around with a bunch of other humanists, and we bitch and lament, and piss and moan about how jacked-up things are. And then we do a little brainstorming, to see if we can come up with some ideas that might provide both immediate and long term solutions. And then, we ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.  The do something stage for today’s menu requires that I catch the next bus downtown, where there are some folks at a homeless shelter, waiting on me to bring some much needed supplies that I’ve managed to collect from around the ‘hood here. Now if you wanna donate, I need a new ‘old lady’ cart to push the stuff around in, since the current one is on it’s very last wheel.

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
---------------------------------------------------
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
---------------------------------------------------
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

By suziekidder, September 4 at 11:25 am #

Calm down.  None of us needs to worry about Obama’s stated policy for healthcare reform.  The legislation for same will not come out of the White House, but more likely out of Ted Kennedy’s office.  And, do any of us really believe that Obama would veto Teddy’s bill? 

I predict that we’ll have single-payer, universal healthcare within the 1st two years of Obama’s first administration.  (I know, from my lips to God’s ears ...)
---------------------------------------------------
Suzie,

That’s the kind of optimism I like to hear right now! Obama really does represent the people and gets his power from the people. That means that the magnitude of whatever changes he can make are proportional to the number and activity of his supporters, the people. He can’t bring about single payer without very substantial help from many others. We need a congress that will pass single-payer before Obama can sign it. Of course he won’t veto it if Congress passes it. He would be overjoyed to be able to do such a thing. Another encouraging sign is that individual states such as California may start doing single-payer on the state level. This should create a lot of momentum on the federal level.

This is no time for negativity. This is the time to hope for the best, not fear the worst."We have nothing to fear but fear itself” - FDR.

Good point about the paragraphs. I’ll try, as one not taught on word processors. Thanks

She--thanks for your kind post. I dont really remember us disagreeing--maybe we have. I have memory prob sometimes. I do not mean to harp on my health prob. I just get in discussions with people who do not realize how bad it really is out here! And it is certainly not just me. I know dozens of people who should REALLY get a checkup (20 yrs), get dentures , their baby has cold/pneumonia/who knows? I am SO tierd of having friends die, do without, and dread the future for myself adn friends.I have some “rough ‘old friends”! LOL I finished college, but I did alot of other things first! Some of it I regret, most I dont. But I cannot/should not put it behind me.I believe that it is strongly immoral to let people die because rich people dont want to pay taxes.I get angry, I cry--but I simply cannot give up. The lady I helped a friend bury the other day, who comitted suicide for lack of a hospice (morphine), I swore over her grave, I would put my “social worker hat” back on and start trying to do something again about health care.  BTW, peeps, --being a social worker may mean you are ‘stupid” to some--you dont make much--but, it is just as hard to get an MS insocial work as anything else. I paid off my student loans. I worked like hell. And when I needed Medicaid, the govt TOOK my PERS (pension) EVERY PENNY!Why should I NOT be upset? My family has spent almost $350,000 this year and that was ALL we HAD! Theres a little more from my sis , who teaches at SUNY/Purchase--but you ,now how much she makes! Most people do not have even THAT back up!Anyway--I’m whining here. I just want some help!! And not just for me!! Please, if you care. We just have to do this. Period.

KDelphi, I really am sorry if I’ve pissed you off so much in the past.  We’ve had our arguments, but I think they have been civil.  I have been listening to your pleas for a long time and I hear you loud and clear and I completely sympathize that you do not have enough to take care of your medical expenses.  There are those of us (even though you may not think I do, I do!) who care about folks like you, and there are plenty of them out there.  I am a retired prof gone back to work!  I have fairly decent coverage, but who knows if it will endure?  My meds still cost a lot in spite of the insurance but nothing like what you are going through and a few others I know.  The rest of us who care are doing everything we can to change the situation. 

There are also those out there who do not agree that help should be given and those are the Republicans.  You should not ever have to consider leaving this country.  It is unconscionable.  It is a travesty.  This is your home!  Something will be done, but it might not be to the degree that will suit you completely because everything has to be negotiated, but something is going to be done.  Single payer is the best plan but it might not happen exactly that way.  We all who can will fight for a universal health care plan in the ways we can.  But we are going to have to have a Democratic congress to get any decent bill passed and a Democratic president who will sign the bill.  It will not get done otherwise, it is a predictable fact.

I cannot afford to leave the country. My house would sel for NOTHING!

Saw SICKO--I LIVE SICKO, Try a Medicadi HMO for about 10 yrs. You’ll be a complete mess. I dont “use everything I can get"--because you cannot get anything!(For profit HMOs have no busines in publicly funded services--they do NOT save $$--they just cut services)I actually tried to convince my comgresspeople that the HMO was wasting $$ by advertising--I sent them the 2 boxes of pretty color brochures they sent me--complete with “model” lookin drs. and nurses, adn asked if I could NOT have these leaflets, and PLEASE have my prescriptions--most of which i have been taking for years. I got no response. Ohio Atty. Gen.’s Office either.As long as taxpyers THINK they are saving $$ , the rep. dont care.Some of this is very strange to me--once you got it, you get everything you can, but you dont want anyone else to?? When they did not pass SCHIP, a guy said to me, “I have 3 kids and I’m on SCHIP, and I dont think we should expand it cause we cant afford it”. !!!!!!!!!!!!HA!

cyrena, I have tried to keep this impersonal, I do not attack you directly. I even like you--but, when you get angry, your attacks just make you look cruel. Why not attack socialism, if you t