Cyrena, I know you are committed to Obama but the reason Ed and I and others are so excited about the Biden appointment is that it commits him to a militaristic, Zionist foreign policy, a neocon policy.

It is a WORSE appointment in this respect than Clinton because the Clintons are primarily domestic pols, and foreign policy is simply an adjunt to domestic policy.  This is true of all pols to a greater or lesser extent, but Biden has made a CAREER of being a militaristic Zionist warmonger.  He has been selected to carry on Cheney’s policies, hopefully in a less brutal and more intelligent way.

But they are the same neocon policies, Cyrena. 
And the US political consensus is going to the right, so the bogus War on Terrorism against Muslims, a billion and a half people, is now being conflated with the New Cold War against Russia.  This will require an INCREASED militarism of the US.

The ultimate danger is that this militarism will spill over to confrontation with China, who will replace the US as the world’s leading power in the coming eight years.  These enormous historical power changes are typcially accompanied by war.  And we are living in a thermonuclear age where the US and Israel are both sucicidally anxious to increase the credibility of their nuclear weapons by using them.

No fundamental progressive policies can be passed while the US-Israel are engaged in continuous and endless warfare.  Which means that class inequality will continue to increase, and the population increasingly dispowered.  This requires increased brutality against the population by American gunmen: the police, military, intelligence agencies, mercenaries and vigilantes.

The Obama presidency will legitimate to the mainstream progressives war abroad and a police state at home.  It is necessary to mobilize the population against it. 

This can be initiated by voting for McKinney now, to give her greater credibilty to arouse the population, who can then be prepared for the collapse that will envitably occur historically, as Chalmers Johson has outlined in his trilogy of books, largely because of the debt incurred in overmilitarizing American power.  As a Black womon, she will appeal to minorities and women more than Nader.

As the noted collapse specialist Dmitry Orlov has argued, America is deficiency in collapse preparednees.  As an eyewitness of the Russian collapse, he suggests reasons and solutions for the US.  It would help greatly to haave a minority of people knowledgeable about historical change.

Like I said, cyrena—you need to back off my ass. Youre making it personal ane there is noneed for that.It becomes flaming and that looks bad on everyone. Can’t we just agree to disagree? I dont have a damn thing against you personally (I think I said something about your long posts once? lol that REALLY bothered you?)Was it calling Obama supporters Obamaniacs??I didnt even THINK about it—if youll look at Obama, he has called them worse, the “bipartisan” ones.The problem is, that, everytime someone questions Obama, or his supporters, it is becoming a known fact, that, they jump all over people, refuse to accept ANY criticism, and generally bully people. That is just not aq recipe for winning, in my book. Fight back against the real enemies of progressivism and bi-partisanship. Youre not going to win over any real progresives anyway. They might vote for Obama (although, increasingly, womens groups and others are reporting bullying and young Af. Am. women asking them to please back off), but it sure wont be because of the kind of attack dog style you guys are using. Try the “charm” offensive (see Obama’s every speech for references)Although, historically, Dems have ALWAYS blamed the more Independent and Liberal wings for their failures. I just dont think it is valid. Maybe you should blame the GOP—nah, they’re all your friendsnow, right? It’s erally strange to watch a “powder puff” speech from Obama, and then, listen to his supporters do al the attack dogging—maybe he should pick uo the mantle himself. It would make him look tougher than threatening Iram Pakistan, etc.

By Ed Harges, August 25 at 10:12 am

•  “What does he mean by “preparations”? Is this just a weasel word for what in practice will amount to “preconditions”?  Is he going to say to Iran , “We’ll talk to you, without preconditions — but first, in PREPARATION for the talks, you must stop all uranium enrichment, even though you have the right to enrich uranium under the NPT (which Israel won’t even sign and the US is violating)”?

•  Because, Cyrena, if the “preparations” are going to be stuff like this, then there aren’t going to be any talks.”
~~~~

I

Well Ed, I don’t know. Too bad we can’t ask him. (Though admittedly, I haven’t tried). So, I guess all I can say is what my dad used to say when we did the ‘if’ argument, and it seemed weak (at least to him)…

“If – “If” was a stiff, it would have been buried.

Now in all honesty, (since I’m nothing if not that) he’s already made semi uncomfortable noises to that effect, by saying that Iran needed to cooperate with the sanctions. I would have preferred that he NOT say that, because I too, know the NPT by memory, and have written extensively on this ‘issue’ for nearly 3 years now. (some of the limited work that I actually get paid for).

So, I don’t know what he will do, if anything, because until he’s president, he CAN’T. Period. That’s the part of it that I find annoying. Now maybe we can say that Obama ‘brought this on himself’ just for having the audacity to run for the office?

I mean, what else could it be? Can you think of any other reason why everybody is predicting his future warmongering without ever mentioning the words Cheney, Addington, Rumsfeld, PNAC, John McCain, or maybe even…just for the hell of it, GEORGE BUSH?  I mean, some people honestly think he’s been the president for the past 7 ½ years. Seriously, I honestly don’t get it, and I’m not trying to be sarcastic. You know as well as anybody, this fight with Iran has been created saber rattling from the neocons since day one. BECAUSE…that’s the standard protocol for any totalitarian fascist regime, bent on taking over the world. They create an enemy, (real or imagined) and continue to insult and badger, and make up all of this same shit like they did with Saddam, so that when they finally ATTACK the guy, nobody is surprised. It’s called “Making Enemies” Hitler was a pro at it, and Cheney et al came in with the same plan.

II

So admittedly, that’s what confuses me about so many of the ‘what if’ questions in terms of Obama and Iran, because I think my *own* ..”WHAT IF CHENEY WHACKS IRAN FIRST”, is a whole hell of a lot more probable!!!

As for Israel’s nukes and the NPT, of course you’re exactly right. It’s because they are NOT signatories to the treaty, that the get away with the shit. One of the few absolutes about Int’l law is that it is VOLUNTARY. No nation state can be forced into any treaty or convention if they don’t wanna be in it. Most nations DO voluntarily engage in most treaties and conventions, because of the benefits that it SHOULD provide them, based on the language of the treaty. In the NPT, it is to Iran’s advantage to be a signatory, because by rights, (and the intent and language of the thing) the nuclear armed states are supposed to ASSIST these non-nuclear states in acquiring the technology for peaceful civilian programs. And that’s the same thing with most international law, in respect to compliance. As a general rule, nations do not violate the laws, because there’s generally no *incentive* for them to violate. If that was the case, they wouldn’t sign on to them to begin with. Ergo, you have ROGUE state Israel, who never has!

And no, I never suggested that any of it was ‘fair’ because I personally think it’s pretty fucked up. And, I’ve written as much…going so far as to suggest that if I was ‘advising’ Iran, I’d probably ‘advise’ them to withdraw from the treaty. (all they need is a 90-day notice). Now under the circumstances, that was probably a pretty rash suggestion, and not at all to Iran’s benefit. (they would have just been whacked that much sooner). Fortunately for me, I’ve haven’t been renditioned as a result of that particular authorship, but hey…it’s a dangerous world we live in, so at least I’m aware of that, and still take my chances.

But my point is that Israel has been around for at least 13 years before Obama was ever even a gleam in his daddy’s eye, and they’ve been harassing the rest of the region for just as long. They’ve been armed with nukes since Obama was about 17, and so far, they haven’t blown anybody to bits, (at least not with those nukes) and Iran doesn’t have any, so neither have they. That’s why I don’t get how all of a sudden, Obama’s ‘position’ on this, is more important than anybody else’s, because apparently IT IS, despite the fact that it can only be couched in ‘what if’ terms!! I’m just saying…I think ya’ll need to keep your eyes on the ball. Has anybody checked Cheney’s whereabouts lately? You know how shit has a tendency to ‘flare up’ when the attention is elsewhere.

As for Biden…I would have made a different choice. In reality, Biden is no more or less a hawk than Hillary Clinton, except that he’s been at it longer. He’s no more committed to Israel than Hillary is, and he’s no less corporately connected than she is. Yet, there are a whole bunch of folks still pissed off that it wasn’t SHE who accepted the nomination tonight, and even more pissed off that she wasn’t the chosen hawk VP instead of Biden.

I’m not about to get my own panties in a wad over that. Maybe I should, but I’m not. I’m gonna trust that Obama has the good sense that I think he has, and I’m gonna trust that Biden can use all of his ‘loose cannon’ fodder to run interference for Obama. He can insult everybody and get away with it, and leave Barack to do his own work. He’ll have plenty of it.

You’re right on the money here Folktruther:

By Folktruther, August 26 at 1:23 pm

•  KDelphi has a point, Cyrena.  There is no need to asume the worst of people.  You have been badly influenced by Tony Wicked. Remember what your loved grandma said.  A lady never insults anyone unintentionally…”

~~~
Indeed, you’re right, and I agree…

There is no need to assume the worst of people. In fact, there is no need to ‘assume’ anything, which is why I always wait for verification.

And so…of COURSE I remember what my grandma said. Since I AM a lady, (and even a relatively patient one) it OBVIOUSLY was *not* UNintentional.

In my neck of the woods, we don’t even let the kids get away with this level of whining.

You see, John, I’m the genuine article - a progressive anti-Zionist. My anti-Zionism is a position that is embraced by a growing minority of Jews, the most progressive among them. No Jew would embrace your views any more than Hitler’s. Obama represents the culmination of the civil rights movement in this country. Merely the fact of his election will rightly restore the position of the United States in the world as a leader of democracy. It amazes me that most of the pseudo-progressives posting do not even recognize this fact. Apparently the civil rights movement never meant anything to them.

Re John Doremi

Is this a “progressive” website?  What the fuck does that mean?
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Oh, it means that anybody with even the tiniest genuine progressive bone in his body, which does not include you, is uniting behind Barack Obama to stop the fascist takeover of our country.

As to Zionism, there are many progressive Zionists as well as reactionary racist ones, and they too are behind Obama. But since you are an anti-Semite disguised as an anti-Zionist, you cannot be expected to grasping this fact.

By cyrena, August 26 at 11:36 am

Brilliant, strong post, cyrena. By attacking Obama and the Democratic party as if they were as much responsible for current economic conditions as the Repiglicans, these alleged leftists show that they are as ignorant of their own economic interests as blue-collar whites who are buying the McCain patriotic war-hero phonus balonus, or evangelicals who have swallowed the anti-abortion, anti-gay kool-aid. By throwing their vote away on Nader or McKinney or Paul or Barr, these “leftists” and “radicals” are voting against their own interests just as much as those other groups. The Repiglicans just love these people.

Is anyone else getting sick of the McCain ads?? I watched tv for the first time in a day—geeezz—-McCain is scooping up Hillary’s words. I guess we should expect it only to get worse.

I finally had tinme to read your tirades!! lol You have a couple of things wrong—you cant find out everything by googling—and you dont know me at all! I have the internet (and the pc) as a GIFT—and its an old pc, or I would take the time todownload some of the stupdi stuff youve said on websites—what a waste—but i digress…I dont get “Medicare”—I worked for many yrs at a Viet vet Ctr. and i’ve lived with a former homeless vet (he helps share the bils) for 18 yrs.I have done alot of other shit before I got hit by a drunk asshole on my motorcycle and i only mention the RA (alot of its other—but thats noyb)because i thibnk it makes my typng poor.What makes yours so crappy? And what makes you so highly excitable? Are you on Ritalin??

KDelphi has a point, Cyrena.  There is no need to asume the worst of people.  You have been badly influenced by Tony Wicked.

Remember what your loved grandma said.  A lady never insults anyone unintentionally.

what kinds of work have you ever done with these groups you care so much about? What is Obama goig to do for them?

geeezz! Just prove my point. When youre attacked , you act like a child (readers—please see above). Dont have Medicare—not old enough. Back off my ass.You need to get a grip

By KDelphi, August 26 at 6:50 am

I

•  “you will, unless youre a conservative at heart. I dont CARE AT ALL about Obama’s “family’s pride”, “Hillary’s respect”—-I care about the people of this country who cannot afford Denver, the internet or cable tv. Nobody else seems to..”
I’m not at all sure where you came up with all of this jibberish KDelphi, but you’re reaction is really over the top. Who said anything about Obama’s family pride, or Hillary’s respect.? Not I. I think you get confused or something.

You say you care about the people of this country who cannot afford Denver, or internet or cable TV. I’m so glad to know that you care about me KDelphi, because I can’t afford them either. And guess what KDelphi, that’s after working my ass off for 30 years.

So, I’m pretty tired of you’re whining. I’m tired of you whining about how the money your dad *left you* after working so hard for so long, is *drying up*, and about how you can’t get Medicare to pay for the right medication for your RA, or about how you can’t sell your family house, that apparently you dad also *left you*. And I’m tired of hearing about how you can’t afford to go on the cruises that TD sponsors, or how you’ve never been on a cruise, and how it would be really nice to go on one.
Because you know who *I* care about KDelphi? I care about the people who DON’T HAVE MEDICARE, and don’t have ANY health coverage. I care about old and middle-aged women who are homeless, living in their vehicles, and pissing in a jar, just grateful for the ‘safe parking’ program that the homeless outreach sponsors, so that at least they can feel as relatively safe as anyone living in their cars and sleeping in parking lots, but only at night, and only after those arrangements have been secured through our organization.

I care that they have no food, aside from what we’re able to provide at the Salvation Army. And I’m pretty fucking PISSED OFF about the whole thing KDelphi, because for the most part, these are NOT *dead beat* people. They have worked all of their lives, and this is what it’s come to for them.

And I care about the HOMELESS VETERANS that are lining our streets, or warehoused in moldy, structurally unsound buildings, and ALSO with NO MEDICAL CARE. Veterans that were ‘fortunate’ enough to make it back from Dick Bush’s WARS of aggression and the perpetration of global hegemony, and don’t you know that they don’t always FEEL SO ‘LUCKY’ about that!

II

And you know who I blame for that. I blame the evil fascists Dick Cheney et all, because you’re right, I AM smart; smart enough to have figured out exactly who, how, and why so many of us have already perished, and why so many more will, before we can ever begin to restore some balance. And I blame people like YOU!! NEARLY EIGHT LONG YEARS of TOTAL DESTRUCTION by these people, and all YOU can do is whine about the dems and Obama! You think OBAMA is responsible for this destruction? It’s been 8 years KDelphi. Have you been in a coma while everything was falling down around you, and now all of a sudden it’s the dems and Obama’s fault? Are you CRAZY?

You said you called the Obama campaign to complain about your medicare health care coverage, like it’s just YOU who has this ‘problem’ with them. One of my uncles passed away 18 months ago, from RA, because the HMO wouldn’t provide that very same medication that you’re probably talking about. And he worked 47 years of his life, serving the public.
So, I wanna know why you didn’t call DICK BUSH and complain. I wanna know why you didn’t call the repiglicans and complain. Who the hell do you think is responsible for this? Are you a moron on top of being a whiner?

Well I’m just so sorry that you haven’t been able to go on a cruise, or that you can’t afford to go to Denver, and that you’re stuck in that house that you can’t sell, with your dads money drying up. Guess what? Everybody’s money is drying up!! Or, it’s already long gone. And so I feel a whole lot more sorry for the hundreds of thousands of people who have been forced out of their homes, and have lost their life savings, and their opportunities to work to take care of themselves, because you can be damn skippy nobody else is gonna provide for them, and they don’t HAVE medicare and/or social security income, because Dick Bush has spent all of THAT as well.

Meantime, YOU obviously have an internet connection, so why don’t you use it to educate yourself instead of whining about shit that has no connection to the misery we’re ALL dealing with now, and pretending like you have some crystal ball that can predict what Obama is going to do as president. You already KNOW what McCain is gonna do, which is to finish your sorry ass off. Then you won’t have to worry about cruising to Denver or anywhere else.

I dont really see it—ss is so much better now than 60s-70s. Possible. (I measnt the secret service—peeps) Some dumbass white separatist not likely to get to them—would be a corp. deal. But I think Zionist Lobby shoudl be pretty happy with him and Biden! I am NOT a racist—my brotherin law is Jewish. I’m anti-Zionist.Also, Obama says Blackwater is “necessary” these days—maybe he could use them! Did they use them at the voters cages (previously a term—now brought to LIFE by DNC!!)—who knows. What a police state….

i had heard about grossman—have to look him up (cant now or be logged off). Yes, it is nauseating. People dont like being nauseated, so they just eat their pablum and shout everyone down. folk—i guess im an exception—never thought so until recently—I grew up i a GOP family (dad was old school GOP—didnt agree with him, but both parties were more decent then), upper middle class, Lutheran (yes, catechism—whole 9 yds)My dad pissed off his family and switched to Independent when Bush 1 invaded Iraq—“no bloodfor oil” he used to say.)ack to DNC in 2000—brother in law went to yale with W—knew what we were in for. Election was stolen. 2004—went against SP-USA party ruls to support Kerry—alot of good it did with that soulless basterd. Stolen from Ohiop—Tubs Jones knew it—DNC wanted to “move on”. TIRED OF IT!! I’m an atheist who now finds herself a member of an Independent party that somehow sees Obama as their savior—inexplicable! Yes. its [past time for an Af. Am. pres.—but we are in deep shit here in us—WE are going to have to stop yelling “yes we can” DO IT! We need to take this govt back! Obama is one smart, rich, good looking, athletic guy—so the f what? He ahs a beautiful family—so do alot of people. I’m an atheist socialist and I think i wil die before we have a revoution here now. Wish Id stayed in Denmark with my extended family—too poor to go leach off of them now. I wen tinto social work-everyoen thinsk thats a joke now. ANYTHIGN with poor is not mentioned. MIDDLC CLASS!! Well, there not much of that left! You cant even mentin class, or the guilty rich act like we’re a classless society. What a joke. $250,00 is Obamas’ definition of “rich”—avg. US makes $42,000. I do not get it. This count4ry is so screwed. And all the former middle class seems to want to do is help otu the rich and corp state.Sorry typing—have arthritis

Has anyone given any thought to the possibility that Obama may be engangering his life by taking Biden as his veep?

I mean, given that Biden’s positions on Iraq, Iran, and the rest of the Middle East are so very much to Israel’s liking (Robert Dreyfuss of The Nationsays that Biden’s actually WORSE than McCain on Iraq), and since the Israel lobby and the Christian Zionists must have much more confidence in Biden than in Obama, given Biden’s very long track record of giving AIPAC everything it wants, well….

Wouldn’t it be so easy for pro-Israel zealots to pay some destitute ex-con with a “white power” tattoo to do it?

It’s clear that they’d just a love a President Biden.

Read this:

On Iraq, Biden Is Worse than McCain Robert Dreyfuss

http://the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?Ar tNum=3733

The political consensus of the Gop-Dem coalition keeps going to the right, KDelphi, because they are funded and media-ed by a ruling class who is bent on class inequality at home, and American-Israel imperialism abroad.  But the Aemrican people are still seduced by the political theater of the conflict between the Dems and Gops as to who gets to mangage the policies of the ruling class.

To change the policies it is necessary for the American population to oppose BOTH the necons in the Gop and Dem parties.  But people inherit their identifications with the Gops or Dems from childhood, just as they do their relgiious identifications. 

It is very difficult historically for a whole people to transform their identifications.  It is difficult to transform Gop-Dem conflict into people-neocon conflict, becuase now the neocons are in power.  It must therefore become people-power conflict.

This is historically possible.  the greatest enemy of the American people are not Terrorists, Russians, Chinese or any other boogeyman.  The greatest enemy of the American people is the American power system. It is driving the American people into the ground, and trying to do dominate the power systems of the world to do so with the world population.  And will continue to do so under either McCain or Obamba.

Obama in this convention has jump started the Bullshit Express to unite us to support war abroad and a police state of destitution at home.  this is the Change You Can Believe In.  This is where the delusive Hope is leading us.

re: By KDelphi, August 26 at 8:54 am # :

KDelphi writes:

“I’ve always known the DNC was somewhat bullshit…”

Well, you have good reason, KDelphi.

For example, just consider the fact that one Steve Grossman, who is currently going around talking enthusiastically about the Obama/Biden ticket, is:

(a) a past president of AIPAC (1992-1996);

(b) a former National Chairman of the Democratic National Committee  (from 1997 to 1999); and

(c) a current board member of AIPAC.

Pretty nauseating, eh? And notice that he was head of AIPAC before becoming head of the DNC. What any sane person would regard as a blatant conflict of interest actually qualified him to head the DNC.

From the Jerusalem Post:

“Steve Grossman, a former president of AIPAC and chair of the Democratic Party, said before the announcement of Biden’s selection that the Delaware senator would be popular among Jews because he’s “as well known an individual as any elected official in America” with a lengthy “track record” of backing the US-Israel relationship.”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=12192186 26418&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Folktruther, I fear you are correct on this one. I’ve always known the DNC was somewhat bullshit—I just thought that they were beter than the gOP. Now, its hard to tell! This has been the most orchestrated, secretive,dare I say-fascist—campaign the Dems have ever run. Surely after 8 yrs of W, they will have it in the bag, run a real progressive,allow dissent, move to the left—but they dont! Even thought Dubya’s ne-cons tactics are losers for uS, losers for his cres and losers for GOOP, ultimately—the DNC sem to have “read up on them and love sit”!! The freedom cages (voter cagin), “USA!” (Yes we can), pomp and circumstance, and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Obama is a politically talented, intelligent leader, and if he were president it would go a long way toward dispelling US racist ideology.  Given that, I am not saying that an Obama presidency would be as bad as Bush’s.

I am saying that it will be WORSE.  No amtter who is elected, the political consensus of the power classes is going to the right historically.  Class inequality is not only more massive than it has ever been, it is increasing.  It increased under both Bush and Clinton. 

This can only be maintained by violence.  The police have been militarized with SWAT teams, the prisons have been built, the military in Colorado have been organized to attack the people, the violence organs have been legalized to massively spy on the Amerian population, government truthers have been installed in the progressive media.

This increasing repression can be most easily justified with war, as it is in Israel.  The elevation of the chief warmonger, Biden, to the vice-presidency indicates that the Dems will revert to their historical tendency of war in this century.  Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson all got us into wars, usually campaigning on a platform of peace.  Both Obama and McCain are war candidates, both pledging not only not to reduce the military, but to increase it.

They will not only continue the War on Terror but carry out the New Cold War against Russia.  Meanwhile continuing to develop new nuclear weapons.  Small countries, threatened with attack by the US and Israel, must therefore develop weapons of mass destruction as a deterrent.  The election of either one will therefore increase the probably of thermonuclear war.

But the American people, and their truthers, are still caught up int the false polerazation of empty elections, where the policies are the same but the people who get the offices and poltical spoils are different.  None of this is told to the American people in the learned and mass media which is controlled by the ruling and professional classes who most benifit by war abroad and an impoverished police state at home. 

So the Gops and Conservative leaders delude the Gop rank and file and the Dem and psuedo-progressive leaders delude the Dem rank and file.

The Dem convention is part of the fraudulent political theater that deludes the population.  All aborad for the Bullshit Express.  Obama is going to bring us together to support war abroad and a police state to rule destituition at home.

you know, cyrena, youre so smart ..and then someone disagress with you and you sound like a child. I dont like Hillary OR Obama—I just dont want goddamn McCain! I think the DNC os TERRIBLE! And if you dont—you will, unless youre a conservative at heart. I dont CARE AT ALL about Obama’s “family’s pride”, “Hillary’s respect”—-I care about the people of this country who cannot afford Denver, the internet or cable tv. Nobody else seems to.This convention is bs, and if you dont think so, youre sucked in, hopelessly naive or—whatr?? I dont get itr when seemingly intelligent peopel get al u-set when someone criticizes or tries to suggest wayt to win—do you want him to win, or do you just want to stick it to peope who disagree with you?? You guys are going to lose if you dont stop this, and the, youl;l blame peoep like me or racism or nader or—you and DNC ALWAYS find something but the DNCs total incompetence! I was not intending to insult Obama supporters—his name is not a holy shrine yo know—ok—“Intelligent, sophisticated, educated, non-bigoted Senator barck obama of Illinois—first ASf. Am. Senator’s loyal and beautifu.l supporters”—feel better.?

Hope, Change,,,zzz. It has gotten to where , all you have to do is say those words and I feel ill or sleepy.A LITTLE jingoistic? Gawd, you guys REALLy have to lay off that crap—even “perky people” cant take it anymore! After awhile, it just sounds so “ON MESSAGE”, that it means absolutely nothing. WHAT “hope”—hope for what? And wht is achieved when you just “hope” for something? What are yiu going to DO? WHAT do you want to CHANGE? It’s becoming the ultimate “cult of personality” and Obama’s not ahead in th epols enough right now to be risking that. Sure, Americans seem to vote for “who they would like to have a beer with”—but i’m not sure that’s completely true this time—peopel here in Ohio are MISERABLE , and alot of it can be blamed on former Gov Taft. Strickland is trying to fix some o fit with a heavily entrenched GOP majority in Columbus. When obama was here, I was concerned about him winning the Rust Belt with this etherial retoric—I called and spoke to them several time. Apparently , since I hadnt supported Obama from DAY 1, I neednt have bothered. They were so sure of themselves then, they actually said, “Well, we dont think we need the Rust Belt, anyway”. I thought, “What dumbasses”. Now, these were not Obama’s words—true. But your workers leave an impression. If Obama wants the Midwest (The Blue Deep South doesnt seem to be working out—I dont know when it was that he was down there—some has changed—not much)there’s a BUNCH of poor peopel here, who have lost jobs, homes, health care, etc. that are just waiting for someone to speak to them and stop calling them stupid and trash. I worked with moveon.org alot and DNC in the past. I coudl help—but, so far,it seems it is not wanted nor needed. I tremble for my country.

Cyerna,

Thanks for the reply.

Have to give you credit, you stuck to your guns a lot longer then I did.  Yes, hope their is still something behind the curtain, maybe even hope and change?

On one of your other replies you mentioned stereotypes.

When does a stereotype become bigoted?

Just noticed, my posts usually have many question marks, with some periods.

re: By Tony Wicher, August 25 at 11:18 pm:

Tony, I wish Obama’s attempt at clarification objectively meant what you want it to mean, that ‘by an “undivided” Jerusalem he was actually talking about a shared Jerusalem, not one under Israeli control.’

But no, that’s not objectively what he said. He said in his original remark that “Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.”  That’s the exact wording pasted from the article you give us the link to.

In his “clarifying” followup, he said ‘undivided’ means without a physical barrier. Let’s plug that into the original statement and see what we have:

“Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and not be divided by a physical barrier.”

Tony, that still means, or strongly implies, Israeli sovereignty over the whole city.

Look Tony, I plan to vote for Obama anyway, because McCain is clearly out of the question; but let’s not get overly audacious with this hope thing.

By Folktruther, August 25 at 7:20 pm #

Ed, how is the US going to return to a less close relation with Israel when Zionists have put in their own man to direct foreign policy in Obama’s adiministration.  Obama has already accorded Jerusilum to the Israel’s, half of which was supposted to be the Palestinian’s states capital.
————————& #8212;———————R 12;———————— -
Oh, this is more BS. Obama has repeatedly stated to all and sundry that his remarks before AIPAC were misunderstood, and by an “undivided” Jerusalem he was actually talking about a shared Jerusalem, not one under Israeli control. He has said this many times since that AIPAC speech. This correction has been noted and accepted by both Zionists and Palestinians.

You can find an objective article on this subject from the Palestinian viewpoint at
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080714/FOREIGN/529 606794/1014/NEWS

KDelphi, I’m really not at all sure who you mean when you refer to ‘Obamites’ but calling Obama supporters names doesn’t necessarily endear you to them anymore than they are likely to simply disregard the very low-ball campaign that Hillary waged and lost as a result.

Still, putting aside what “Obamites’ might have to say, as far as ‘acting like someone likes Hillary for a couple of days,” it would appear to be YOU who has missed the point! Obama, his wife, and all of his campaign advisors have consistently KISSED HER ASS for months! WTF? Are you BLIND? Both Hillary and Willey have top billing at the Convention, and Obama is even the one that suggested her name be added to the roll call!

It’s never enough for people like you. Ever. You live in some sort of idealist fantasy world that takes kindness for weakness, and just keeps pushing the envelope. The Obamas bend over backwards for the entire campaign to praise Hillary, and acknowledge whatever strengths she has, and all of that just goes right over your head. Talk about missing the point.

So yeah, Obama *IS* the ‘diplomacy’ guy. Never in a million years have you seen the LOSER of the primary election get this much play from the winning team. Do you think if the tables were turned that Hillary would be doing anything of the sort? Of course not. Get fucking REAL.

Besides, you’re the guy who’s gonna vote for McCain anyway, right? You’re the one who called the Obama campaign about the health care thing, and you’re even foolish enough to think there was even an iota’s worth of difference between their health plans. (BTW, the ONLY one with a decent health care plan was Kucinich, and the only difference between Obama’s and Hillary’s was that she was gonna MAKE you pay the insurance companies for the stuff, even if you didn’t want or need it). But you’re gonna vote for McCain now, even though he’d as soon spit on you as look at you, and there ain’t no way in hell you’re EVER gonna get any ‘socialist’ ANYTHING form a republican. I guess that’s why you didn’t call McCain on the topic, eh?

Try Mexico KDelphi. The rent is slightly cheaper there, and so is the health insurance. So get Medicare to spring for one of those power chairs, if you haven’t already, and hit the road. You’ll be there by election day

this country is NOT free & has not been; it is under dictatorship with the folks DELUDED that it is “free”; the THOUGHT is for global dominion of the Corps that work with the USA; been to Canada already; been to Mexico; there is civil war there; been to other countries as well; they bribe the heads of states; tell them they have got away with it in the USA for years; consider this: Donald Rumsfield, Sec of Defense, got asparteme thru: which turns to deadly formaldehyde after being ingested; our Gov works with chemical companies to make big bucks to harm us so the pharmas; apparently “free” means freedom of everyone to exploit to the max the citizens; harmful acts against civilians who do not morally deserve it; gosh, folks: that is the description of terrorists! 70% or more of the world knows this: do YOU

By Leefeller, August 25 at 12:42 pm #
Cryrena,
Am I hearing you correctly?  Like some of us who were staunch Obama supporters, you have finally seen the light? 
~~~~~

Leefeller, I had to chuckle. Yes, you *are* hearing me correctly, but believe it or not, this isn’t really ‘new’ for me. I’ve made similar acknowledgments before. And believe it or not, I’m STILL a staunch Obama supporter, because if nothing else, I’m a realist, and I suspect (though I cannot be certain) that Obama is as well. As some of my elders might say, ya just gotta do what ya gotta do, and I suspect there is still much to be revealed about Obama, and I don’t believe that he is *as* manipulated as it may appear. Or, to put it another way, I suspect that to the extent that he IS manipulated, he KNOWS it. And, there’s a big difference between knowing when you’re being used, and allowing it for a later and greater goal, and being totally co-opted without even realizing that you are. The difference is subtle, and the better one is at it, the less discernible it is by those who don’t explore ALL of the possibilities below the surface. As the old saying goes…from time to time, the hunter gets captured by his own game.

If nothing else, I know Obama is a thinker, even if I’m not absolutely sure of everything he’s actually thinking. And, as a scholar and a teacher myself, I understand the mindset of those who have spent a considerable part of their adult lives doing the same thing. Teachers…good ones at least, will always gage the knowledge level of their students, and accommodate the lesson accordingly. It’s a wise thing to do, and that alone is what differentiates a great teacher from a mediocre one.

That’s not to say that I don’t have my own issues with him, but those are ones that I’ve had from the beginning, and accepted as relatively minor, and something that has as much to do with experience and exposure than anything else. I’m *not* as bent out of shape at the same things that seem to have everyone else in an uproar. I even find much of this criticism to be highly ironic and even hypocritical, considering what we’ve experienced collectively, under the destruction of the Cheney regime.

So yeah, while I’ve certainly seen the light, I’ve been seeing that part of the light for a while. I think there’s still way more behind the curtain, yet to be revealed. Meantime, I keep learning myself. We should all be lifelong scholars.

By Folktruther, August 25 at 1:43 pm

Thanks Folktruther, now THIS I really do believe. I can accept this explanation, maybe because it *IS* such a fantastic story…

•  “These people are as crazy as loons and they are largely running the country, both countries.  They support the neocons of both Gops and Dems, and Senators like Biden.  Most Americans don’t know this of course because the zionists and neocons largely control the mass media and pooh-pooh such analysis as conspiracy theories.  To some extent it is, but it happens to be true.  But it is such a power anomaly it is difficult to get people to believe who are not anti-Semites.”

I don’t think I could have accepted this even 10 years ago, that so few people (relatively speaking) could wield such power. And you’re right, the average person who is NOT anti-Semite, would easily see it as a conspiracy theory, especially those of us who (like me) have been around Jews all of my life, and never known them (at least as individuals) to be any more or less offensive than any other individuals. Most other people of color are *less* likely to buy into negative ‘group’ stereotypes, if only because we’ve suffered them ourselves.  That tends to be the social psychology, because in reality, many of us are ‘programmed’ that way. It doesn’t help that they’ve been able to control the mass media for so long, that many of us become brain washed from an early age.

For instance, why does every single American ever attending school (and school) ALWAYS learn about the Nazi Holocaust, and NEVER learn about the European Holocaust of the Native Americans? And when we do, it is often from Jews that we hear these truths. In my own experience, it is Jews of the intellectual crowd who are *most* critical of Israel!! Go figure. And it’s true that some of my own best friends, really *are* Jews! (I know, I know…sounds like a clinche’ that always applied to black folks, ‘some of my best friends are black’, blah, blah, blah, and usually it is insincere). Still, that *has* been my own experience, and it was a collective experience, at least for a time, during the civil rights movement, when the average Jew was as equally despised as the average black person.

Needless to say I suppose, my career in public service reduced some of that naiveté, but I’ve still always resisted any form of ‘group’ think, or the temptation to accept any stereotypes. But if I was ever entertained any skepticism that a relatively small, (and mostly unseen group) could wield such enormous power, that has been completely eliminated by the events that have become painfully obvious as a result of The Coup oof 2000, when they completely high jacked our government. And technically speaking, many of the main characters in that, aren’t even Jews. (still Zionists though).

Anyway, thanks for the reality check. Intellectually speaking, I have *no* reason to doubt what you say here, but I’ll probably never be able to find a satisfactorily philosophical explanation for it, though I’m sure history provides many examples.

Ed, how is the US going to return to a less close relation with Israel when Zionists have put in their own man to direct foreign policy in Obama’s adiministration.  Obama has already accorded Jerusilum to the Israel’s, half of which was supposted to be the Palestinian’s states capital.

The US war’s supported and sometimes led by Biden have been increasingly worse under Bush.  Both Afghanistan and Iraqa are unwinnible, the US attack on Lebonon was a defeat, and the Georgia war was a rout.

What the American people don’t know, because the meadia doesn’t tell them, is that there was a two week military operation the US led with Georgia and other Ureopean nations a week before the war.  It was called OPERATION INNEDIATE RESPONSE and undoubtedly helped the Georgia presidential loony to attack Russia.

What he did was bomb and shell the Ossetian capital and drive tens of thousands of Ossentian and Russian citizens into Russia, in an exercise of ethnic cleansing.  In the process he killed Russian peacekeepers.  Russian was simply forced to intervene, and the US did not back up Mr loonyashvili.

US militarisn is getting more delusial and more dangerous.  It will continue no matter who is elected.  Under Obama there may be some token domestic gains, but nothing to significantly degrease class inequality.

Ed—only reason I cant is $$. Cant sell my house here in Ohio. Have family in Northern EU—but i was there 25 yrs ago and mopst I knew well are getting up there—I dont want to ask them to set me up. Canada is sick of Americans. I dont know either. But, 25 yrs ago, we were NOT the “richest nation on earth”, “the freest nation on earth”, and our social safety net sucks—-today, any progressive not offering full , nationalized health care should be ashamed! I saw almost all of W. Europe—I should have stayed (Work Study). But, I was sure we would “catch up”—hehe. I sure dont think so now!

By KDelphi, August 25 at 5:11 pm:

I’m real tired of baby steps, too, but I can’t leave the country, for various reasons. I don’t know what to do.

I’m tired of baby steps. If this is the best we can do, i’m going to do all I can to get out of USA. I know you’ll be glad to hear that—-but, if Dems dont take this country in hand—I predict there will be mass revolts. I dont know when—but youre not going to get there with the Dems.

re: By PatrickHenry, August 25 at 3:07 pm:

Yeah, it’s true; if the US government under a President Obama could even merely return to the previous, less suicidal level of US subservience to Israel, prior to the Bush disaster, that would be a substantial improvement. As another poster here said, we may have to be satisfied with baby steps. Obama, even with Biden on board, is far preferable to McCain.

At the onset of a new administration I’m sure the U.S. won’t let down Israel immediately, it wouldn’t be kosher.

We do have to get rid of the Israeli dual nation spies which permeate our government.  If quotas dictate, put them in a non-security related field. 

I trust that Obama will allow Biden to “back door” Israeli issues while administering a fairer U.S. foreign policy than present.  Time to kiss and make up with Russia because of the stupid prick mentality of the current administration.

We as Americans have much to “undo” in the world.

The major disaster of Zionisn in the world is not its horrible oppression of the Palestinians.  It is the uniting of support of the Jewish rich in the West, and especially in the US.

According to John Petras, a retired profession of NY univerisity, 25 to 30 per cent of the US ruling class are Jews.  this is astonishing but parallels other ethnicities that have gained power by going into business, such as the overseas Chinese and, at one time, the Armenians.  Jews could not own land in the West and therefore went into the truth and money industries, acumulating the latter over historical time.  An unfashionable sociologist, Warner Sombart, who in his time was more famous than his colleague Max Weber, argued that it was the Jews, not Protestants, who began capitalism in the West.

In any event a relatively few American Jewish families own billions or hundreds of millions of dollars and were united by their support of Israel.  A few, like Soros, supported the Dems, and MoveOn, with tens of millions of dollars, and did not care much one way or another about Israel, but were attacked by Zionists and nuetralized.  Like Sabin and another guy recently profiled in the New Yorker, Zionists favored the Lichud reactionary wing of Israeli policy, which prevents Israel from allowing the Palestinians to form their own state.

To make a long story short, and it is a fantastic story, the coalition of American Zionist Jews, combined with Christian anti-Semites who support Zionism, are instrumental in promoting the militeristic foreign policy of BOTH Israel and the US.  This is astonishing but if you are willing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars, or more, and can unite Jewish and other intellectuals who will formulate and publicize Zionism, this forms what Petras calls the Zionist Power Configuration which wields vastly disproporate influence in power systems.

The historical problem is primarily the Jewish ruling class who have created a political echo chamber in both Israel and the US, and to a lesser extent throughout the West.  I am Jewish myself and I just assumed that this was the usual anti-Semetic garbage until I read it by people who I knew were not anti-Semitic. 

But Aipac deliberately muddies the waters between the two concepts, itself promoting anti-Semtism while promoting Zionism.  For example, it featured Rev Hagee at its conference who organized for Zionism and publically proclaimed that Hitler, in massacuring theJews, was doing God’s work, getting the Jews to Israel.

These people are as crazy as loons and they are largely running the country, both countries.  They support the neocons of both Gops and Dems, and Senators like Biden.  Most Americans don’t know this of course because the zionists and neocons largely control the mass media and pooh-pooh such analysis as conspiracy theories.  To some extent it is, but it happens to be true.  But it is such a power anomaly it is difficult to get people to believe who are not anti-Semites.

Obama is centrist—alwasy has been

Cryrena,

Am I hearing you correctly?  Like some of us who were staunch Obama supporters, you have finally seen the light? 

You know when Mike Gravel made his anti military complex speech during the firsts debate, I could not help but notice the other contenders looking like deer standing on a road with headlights in their eyes, this was my first inkling of fact verses fiction. Sad to say, even Kucinich looked the same, but was much harder to see out of the spotlight.

Manipulation continues with or without us.

and Zionist beliefs. Powerful Zionist lobby, gives los of money. I am NOT anti-Jewish—my brother-in-law is one and said Lieberman was one in 2000! Didnt bleieve him then. I do now!

re: By cyrena, August 25 at 11:54 am:

I think the US’s attachment to Israel is ultimately irrational.

It’s based on a combination of religious fairy tales believed by the masses and sublimated guilt about what we did in World War II (like Hiroshima, for example). It’s maintained through financial and political manipulation from Israel, recycling our own financial support back into our political system and our news media in order to maintain and increase that support.

Israel is not a net asset to the US in any practical sense.

By Ed Harges, August 25 at 10:40 am

Ed, I wasn’t questioning you before. Really…I wasn’t. I already KNEW, that *I* DIDN’T KNOW!

So, this saves me the time of checking into any research to confirm what I had no real reason to doubt from you to begin with. Because, I’ve never pegged you as one to sprout hyperbole.

Meantime, this gives credence to what either you or someone posted previously. Despite the carefully worded/orchestrated pandering that Obama did for AIPAC, the Zionists still don’t completely trust him.

And, obviously THEY (in Israel) pay far, far, far more attention to US sentiments than most American’s do…like this…

”... As the liberals clamor for greater distance between the U.S. and Israel…”

They know what’s going on.

Meantime, as just sort of an ‘aside’ since I’m just wondering out loud as I take these frequent breaks from my hard labor to read through these comments…

WHY is Israel so desperately determined to maintain the Siamese Twin relationship with US? OK…easy answer there…they NEED the US economic support, military protection, and the political power that the US wields on the global level, to protect them from the consequences of their actions. OK…that’s easy enough.

I just wanna know WHAT THE HELL the US political class is getting from ISRAEL in return? I haven’t figured that out yet.

I mean surely we’ve proven that we can take over an entire region all on our own, and force hegemony anywhere we choose to. Been doing that for decades and decades. So, why the hell is the US so indebted to Israel?

Maybe there was a time when I thought I had this figured out. I don’t.

Cyrena:

If I were the one to say that Biden thinks the US and Israel are “joined at the hip,” and that he’ll make sure we stay that way, someone would call that an anti-Semitic statement.

But see, I don’t have to say that, Cyrena; because the Jewish Daily Forward says exactly that for me:

Forward Interview: Biden Rejects Clamoring For the Greater U.S.-Israel Distance

As the liberals clamor for greater distance between the U.S. and Israel, one of Washington’s most vocal critics of the administration’s Middle East policy is vowing to keep the two countries joined at the hip if he is elected president.

And Cyrena, later in the article, Biden declares that in his 34 years in DC, he’s always tried to make sure that “the Arab nations have known that there is no daylight between us and Israel”

http://www.forward.com/blogs/campaign-confidential/ forward-interview-biden-rejects-clamoring-for-the/

Ed Harges, August 25 at 9:04 am

•  “Dionne falls all over himself to praise Biden’s foreign policy perfections….Dionne cannot be so stupid that he doesn’t know that Biden is a faithful servant of the Israel-first, crusading, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim militarism that led the US into the Iraq war and that obliges the US to sacrifice its own citizens’ well-being to aid and abet Israel’s ongoing expansionism and crimes against humanity. Dionne must know that Biden has consistently supported and trumpeted the lies that lead to war, lies about non-existent WMD and other “threats”, especially from anybody Israel wants us to go to war against.”

I dunno Ed, maybe he IS that stupid. And, that only reason I say that, is because apparently I am too! I’ve never paid that much attention to Joe Biden’s record on Israel OR ‘foreign policy’, so I wouldn’t have known this myself.

And to tell you the truth, I don’t even know if I’m ready to do the research to find it out. I’m still reeling from the Holbrooke/Albright addition to the Obama camp, because I KNOW what THEY’RE about. (Albright was even one of the many 2nd or 3rd round signatories to the PNAC!)

Now Holbrooke has been over in Georgia, doing Obama absolutely NO GOOD, if that’s whom he’s supposed to be speaking for. What a fucked-up mess this is.

So, do I ‘really’ wanna research Biden more thoroughly, or do I just wanna embrace denial, after holding out for so long now?

Meantime, since none of us has ever been to Hell, (to come back and report), I’d say Gaza is worse.

Cyrena - Obama has said he’d meet with Iran “without preconditions”; but he adds that “‘without preconditions does not mean without preparations”.

What does he mean by “preparations”? Is this just a weasel word for what in practice will amount to “preconditions”?

Is he going to say to Iran , “We’ll talk to you, without preconditions — but first, in PREPARATION for the talks, you must stop all uranium enrichment, even though you have the right to enrich uranium under the NPT (which Israel won’t even sign and the US is violating)”?

Because, Cyrena, if the “preparations” are going to be stuff like this, then there aren’t going to be any talks.

And Biden is just the person to make sure that this is exactly what happens, since he is 100% a slave of the Israel lobby.

By RUMCSwan, August 25 at 9:31 am

•  “If I was a politician I’d sit down and have a meeting with Ahmadinejad any day of the week, cause at least he tells you straight what he thinks, even though you may not agree, or like it, but it’s a starting point to work from—if you want to.”

~~~~~

Humm, bypassing all of the psychobabble shit, I’d say I agree with this 100%. Thing is….so does Obama! Have you all missed that? Remember when he was raked over the coals for suggesting exactly this, (and Biden was included). And, he’s STILL saying it, as recently as last week. WE NEED TO TALK TO IRAN DIRECTLY!!

Need links? I’ll see if I can find them.

KDelphi, (August 25 at 6:50 am)

~~ If [Obama] cant make peace in the DNC—how the hell is he going to make peace anywhere else? So the conservative Dems are HARDER to bargain with, than Ahmaddinejhad ~~

BINGO!!!! You won a huge kiss (if you want it!)

What I been saying for years. You cannot make peace with people who are not willing to call a spade a spade and deal with their anger (psychological term: passive aggressives, although many psychologists themselves are passive aggressive; you got to get a real NOT ANGER MANAGEMENT (thats a bunch of passive aggressive horsesh