Thank you sanity, much to your credit for pointing it out, and to Canada’s greater credit for staying out of it, I apologize for including Canada in my list of multinational countries who originally invaded Iraq in the illegal Iraq war, which are the US, UK, Australia, and Poland, and for being one of the bitches.  I did notice in reviewing my resource that seventeen countries have withdrawn. Czech Republic have 65 troops deployed currently out of an original 300 in July 2008 and Azerbaijan starting with 270 troops in September 2007 and has currently 88 are the only new addition of countries since Bosnia and Herzegovina and Estonia in 2005. 

Unlike Canada, this country (the USA) has much to be ashamed of not the least of which is allowing this administration to decimate its Constitution. The Investigative Status Report of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff December 2005 shows how Bush and company have corroded the Consititution:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/5769
1. Determined to go to War Before Congressional Authorization
2. Misstating and Manipulating the Intelligence to Justify Pre-emptive War
3. Encouraged and Countenanced Torture and Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment
4. Cover-ups and Retribution
August 2006
1. The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution and Coverups in the Iraq War
2. Unlawful Domestic Surveillance and the Decline of Civil Liberties Under the Administration of George W. Bush
February 2007 - BNet
Signing away our Constitution: the Bush administration, using signing statements as tools of legislation, has recently claimed the power to open our mail without a warrant - Writing in The Federalist, No. 47, James Madison, the primary architect of the Constitution, warned: “The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”

Republicans in congress generally block much legislation and have caused most of the congressional inaction.  However, [in the summer of 2006, Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter (a Republican Senator) introduced the Presidential Signing Statements Act of 2006. The measure would have prevented presidential signing statements from having the force of law. Referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee, it sat until the close of the 109th Congress. No similar bill has been introduced to date in the new Congress. To avoid the despotism that worried President Washington, Congress urgently needs to take up this issue again and pass legislation preventing the president from using signing statements as a legislative tool.] – excerpt from AOP, 2007
From the following sources: Washington Post, National Wildlife Federation, Aug. 12, 2008 “In an unsurprisingly underhanded move, the Bush administration is moving to allow federal agencies to determine whether their actions endanger species. This action is underhanded because it bypasses Congress with only a 30 day commenting period (some sources say 60). Not that it matters whether there is a commenting period at all, since the administration is not likely to take anything anyone says into account unless it comes from a large oil company. Republicans have been trying to get something like this through Congress for ages, but of course it is all much simpler with a president who disregards the legislative branch.”

Americans can ask the all of the media to cover this report, not only MSM but Bill Moyers, Mother Jones, Slate, Pacifica Radio, the BBC, Third World Traveler, etc.  And what can Americans do about being suppressed in voicing their dissent?  Speak louder, chant as a group, encourage more to show up at the “cages,” get better organized.  Don’t bother writing congressmen, just make more noise, they and the world will hear it.

a good exercise for you all would be to write your posts without the use of adjectives…

I interrupt this bitch-fight between Jersey Girl and Shenonymous (as entertaining as it is to read a couple of people more interested in insulting each other than make any serious point) to inform these readers of at least one inaccuracy—Canada did NOT join the multi-national force in Iraq, though Canada is fighting in Afghanastan. I suspect our current government WOULD have joined but the one in place 5 years ago was firmly against that war and public opinion in Canada has remained behind that decision.

We’ve lots to be ashamed of in this country, but warring in Iraq is NOT one of them, thank you very much.

Anyone who supports the caging of dissenters, the silencing of those who disagree (I’m talking the so-call ed convetnion here) is just asking for more division in the Dem Party—and, if youre are “not a Dem” and “hate those labels” why in hell not run as in Independent? I am not some damn conservative who is crying for Clinton. I want a [progressive—we’ve had centrists and moderates (and neo-cons) screwing things up for years> What would be so terrible about giving a true liberal a chance? (sorry—progressive—yo guys let the neo-cons change even the way you espres yourselves)It’s been coming for years, well, since FDR , really—the Dems are not the party of the people, there isnt one. Thats why we are so far behind socialist democracies in Human Rights, Health Care, homelessness,  equality of classes, education, care of children etc.  They both deserve to lose but both cant. The Dems are playing GOP games, evn thought theyve seem them catch up with the neo-cons—so they deserve no more respect than the GOP. If Obamas centrist positions (what are they today??) feel right to you—youre lucky. After fighting tooth and nail for Kerry—who i didnt like, and who quit to soon—I just cannot do it anymore.Alot of people feel the same way. Obama has gone back on virtually every opromise he made, and he;s not even nominated yet! It wil only get worse.I’m more sad and disappointed than angry. The “Compassion Forum” on Saturday—everytiem I hear these guys I just want to throw up, because theyre not doing anythig to address the real problems, and you know what those are—they re just not your problems so you dont care.What is it about separation of church and state that these dumbass parties do not understand? He had to “prove he wasnt Muslim”?? What a joke! Anyone who stil thinks obama is a Muslim after listening to Rev. Wright (sounds like a “progressive Falwell” to me)just WANTS to think that. On the Foruj blog , they wer arguing whether he was “born again”?!! GAWD , get real.

cyrena—I’m sorry I dont have time today to read anylengthy posts—I’m not criticizing all lengthy posts. I’m just a little surprised—YOU—have you READ some of Shenonymous’ stuff?? I have read alot of yours and viewed you to be more , shall I say, seasoned. Smart too. But, then alot of seasoned and smart peopeo are faling (literally ) for Obama these days..sigh/ So much for hopine 8 yrs of W would bring about real change. US is beginning to loook pathetic.

cyrena, I feel distinguished when put in your company.  If we are called sisters, so be it.  Your posts, long or short, run circles around most every body and I’ve have always, always found them informative and precise and interesting.  Far as I am concerned you never need worry about the shallow nonentities such as jg and her warts of friends who are incapable of displaying any resemblance of mind.  They attain the nth degree of reductio absurdum with the greatest of ease. They demonstrate their own wet brains and lack of mental integrity.  I haven’t the slightest care what they say about me. They really are not worth another word. 
There are other issues that are, however.  See you on some other forums.

Look who it is, Cyrena ! Well surprise surprise !
Hmmmmmm Seems you have some sort of tracking device.  Or are you and She indeed clones after all?

Sorry I didn’t bother to read your 2 part post.  I just saw my name mentioned in caps in the first line.  More of the same blathering, inane bs I’m sure.  I neither have the time nor the inclination to read such nonsense. Some of us have jobs and lives to tend to and post comments on websites when we have spare time.  You seem to have all the time in the world to go from post to post to tear people up personally in order to pump up your shallow little ego.  You are a very sad person cyrena. My sympathies really do go out to you.  It appears you live a very small life.

Oh Shenonymous,

As soon as I saw the first attack from JG calling you ‘naïve’, I considered a warning not to take the bait, because it’s such a waste of time and energy. Like, even BELOW zero sum.

Yep, all of the accusations against you are a repeat of what she’s hurled at me. We’re talking a real psycho case here, and that’s what it boils down to. You missed that, since she was really only around for just over a month, (parts of June and July) and then gone, for what I suspected would only provide us with a short respite, if any at all. (probably at a domestic terrorist training camp, or maybe hospitalized for the mental instability.)

At the time, you weren’t posting that much, and limited to the one thread that we had going on about the Evangelicals. So, you missed the trash from Jersey Girl and her ilk at the time, and it’s just as well. She directed all of the same shit to me, as you see she’s just brought my name up again, in claiming that we’re both the same. It’s the thinking and the intelligence that she has the problem with. Very anti-intellectual, so that’s your crime. Reading and thinking analytically is the antithesis of the Jersey Girl doctrine. It is ALL 100% viscerally projected EMOTION, and the ANTI-Obama theme is the entire purpose of her existence. If she didn’t have Obama to hate, she’d have no purpose in life.

Anyway, she’s been into it with multiple other long term posters on this site, just because her MO is to attack like the proverbial pit bull, and then whine when people respond, because nobody is going to stand by and allow someone mentally unstable basket case to tell then how they think, or who or what they are about. I’ve called her a bully because that’s what she is. But if you read long enough, (if one could even stomach it) she’s just really very insecure in her own ignorance. That makes anyone less ignorant, open for attack, because you then become ‘the enemy’ because you’ve either disagreed with her, or won’t fall in line, or otherwise take offense to being consistently ridiculed. She like a gang leader trying to establish her presence as ‘the leader of the gang.”

And, as it is with ALL of these types, they accuse everyone else of their own behavior. The standard with me, (which she’s now accused you of) is the thing with people disagreeing with us.

•  “…Your lame attempt at trying to cut down people like me and KDelph that disagree with you, won’t do you a damn bit of good…”

Then she goes on to accuse you of wanting to impress people. Since we know that isn’t your or my purpose on these threads, the truth is that it’s what she so desperately needs, and simply doesn’t have the tools to accomplish. In fact, it’s the ‘cutting down’ of people that she kicks in with, like deciding you were ‘naïve’. Same thing with me. I can’t remember what she pounced on with me first off. But Something insignificant. But, it’s ATTACK MODE from jump street. And, like any other person easily led by bullies, (passive, weak, whiney types)  there are a few who will get behind her. Just not many.

Still, it’s so classic and typical. Attack somebody that you don’t know anything about. Then, when they react, have the juvenile stupidity to claim that it is THEY who are out of line. Point out the stupidity for what it is, and then it means that ‘you think you’re better than *everybody* else”. (Yeah, she likes to speak for everyone posting on this blog as well). So she’ll tell you what you think, and who you are, and denounce you for being intelligent. (Probably why she hates Obama)

Part II

And then others fall in line and claim that she’s done research. (come on KDelphi, you’re smarter than that. WHAT RESEARCH???)

She’s got a real problem with the writing as well. Once claimed that I must never have taken a ‘creative writing course’ because if I had, I’d know that ‘shorter’ was more ‘effective’. (Yeah, for propaganda, no doubt it is…no need to think beyond a die-hard ideology, or connect any dots)  So I guess that fits with the ‘creative writing’ part….just not the same that is prevalent in real writing that sane people practice.

I could go on, but I won’t. I think the last few posts from her are enough for you to figure it out. I’m not sure there’s a way to make her go away, which would be nice. I guess we can always hope that she’ll run into a another pit bull from the repug camp, but even that isn’t likely. She won’t do any of her mass protest there, (likely to be tasered) so she’ll clown at the Democrats convention, and that’ll make her feel *REALLY* important.

She:  You’re a bloody pretentious bore.

jg you are a zero sum of nothing + nothing.  No ideas and no thinking skills.

She:  You consider yourself an intellectual because you write lines and lines of bs? LOL My goodness, do you take lessons from that other truthdig blowhard Cyrena?  You sure sound like her clone.  She thinks she’s better than everyone else too.  The real truthdig is everyone has her number and they will soon have yours too. You are one of those pompous asses who think they impress by writing more lines than anyone else.  In reality, you are boring everyone, who prefers stimulating give and take conversation, to tears.

It seems to me, most obamabots have that same m.o.  I guess it goes with the territory.  All the brainwashed, fearful sheeple graze together.

Your lame attempt at trying to cut down people like me and KDelph that disagree with you, won’t do you a damn bit of good.  So save your venom for those who can’t or won’t dish it right back at you.  It seems you get your kicks from feeling superior to others.  How sad for you.  Get off your high horse.  No one here is impressed.

She—where are you on the site you refer me to on voter fraud? I dont see you. I would love to help with a non-[artisan group in Ohio to stop it from happening again. I’m disabled and broke. And I dont support Obama—that probably counts me out. I only say disabled because, althought I was out in the rain al night long in 2004—I cant do that because my RA got worse because Mediciad wont let me see a competent specialist or pay for my medications. Obama is NOT going to change that—i called his campaign—they admitted nothing wouod change for my sistger with breast cancer wither—change what?? $5000 tax credits wont help my music major sister, amking $30,000 a year, pay for her $12,500 policy with $8000 in chemol costs. The $$ my dad left is drying up—if I lived in any other civilized country on earth, I (and my fanily) would astil be middle class—my dad worked his ass off till he was 76—died of brain cancer at 78—and now his fanmily is going broke and we cant sel his house. OPbama il not do anything about that either—its a “morqal hazard”: he says. I should vote for him why?? Never mind—the way you try to convince people is so ounconvincing!

She—I tried to volunteer to help Mitakides defeat Turner, and poll watch for voter cagers and reconsgtructionist era voter challengers like I did in 2004—I am informed that “I am not welcome, since I am supportin McCain”!! How do you think that makes most people feel?? Why the fuck should I do anythign for a party that, just because I disagree abhout their “majority”? nominee, I am “not welcome”. They are telling that to all knids of lifelong Dems—ant its stupid. I screamed bloody murder in 2004 over caging and challenging ( iw as with move on,.org)in Ohio in 2004, I called NAACP SCLC< CBC (Black Caucus)—only Tubbs Jones (with Boxer) responded with a lawsuit that they had to drop for lack of support gfrom the DNC! You guys had better wake uop to some of this shit, because otherswise youre just tje GOP! Sorry about the typing, this stil makes my blood boil! And it will happen in 2008, even with assjoe Blackwell gone, because the DNC is always cutting off its own nose—so they deserve it—we dont!

Gee, she—youre SO SMART! I think I’ll run out and vote for Obama, since you are so ,much smarter than I am! Intelligence is judged many weays—useless intellectualism is just that. Results matter—and you guys should have aced this election. The fact that you CANNOT just shows how out of touch you really are. But, dont listen to me—or anyone else. Just keep your blinders on, vote for Obama, and cry “racism” when he loses. All you do is demean people and act like youre smartet than everyon. Most intelligent peopledont do that.Yu know, Obama had me for awhile—his robots have made me not want to even lok at him nymore. I’m SO SICK Of him!! And that is why he may win—because McxCain is an asshole. But he wont have thee core Dems. So nothing wil CHANGE, she—what the hell is he goin to CHANGE anyway? He’s flipflopped on taxcuts, abortion, Iraq, health care, everything. This is going to turn out to be the bigest [primary in history and the smallest general election. Plenty of GOP will turn out against Obama, Obama will squeeZe by, within a year hiss support will be 0%, because he’s full of shit.Insulting people doesnt change that. You are so selective in you autobiograhy, but very FULL OF IT on everyone else’s—you dont KNOW me—or maybe, anyone else—maybe that’s the problem.The sad “victory” wil be when obama disappoints al these fake-ass “liberals”. Just like Clinton Kerry, -no more joy in “i told you so”. Our country is screwed if we keep either of the two paries in power. Th more I listen to Obama—the more I know youre wrong.I agree with you on ONE thing—youre arrogant! Most insecure intellectuals are. If Obama’s so great, why is he only ahead by a few points (in some polls) and losing the Dem base? Of you think he’s so great, you should be concentrating on that. Try the ‘charm offensive”! LOL!

Here, do something to help this guy out…I certainly have. 
http://americansagainstvoterfraud.wordpress.com

A quote from an email he sent me:
”I am really fed up with the voting system.  I think many Americans are fed up.  I know some people who lean heavily right and who say that voter fraud is helping the left gain more voters.  They are saying that illegal immigrants are signing up to vote and will sway the election.  The only thing I can do is state the other side of the argument.  I know one tactic of politicians is to accuse your opponent of something you are guilty of.  How do we sort out the fact from the spin? Some might think I lean to one side.  This really isn’t a “one sided” issue.  The only people who benefit are by definition the minority.  I just want competency and accountability.  I think the majority of people want to eliminate voter fraud regardless of their party.  I think a properly functioning voter system is SO IMPORTANT.  The fact that our nation still has a broken voter system makes me really, really frustrated.  Mexico’s voter system is better than ours.  I say fix the system and let the politicians fend for themselves.  It seems though, that neither side to want to fix the problem.  Lets face it, anyone in office has found some way to either deal with or exploit the problem, so why spend resources trying to fight an uphill battle?  The internet gives individuals power, so I decided to start a blog.  It took me 10 minutes to set up.  It’s even taking my longer to craft this email.  I know its a crazy idea to try to get something done, but I thought that the small chance if it catching on would be worth the little effort. I’m trying to recruit people to help.  Anyone that can do a google search can help out.  I want to list names of people accountable and start documenting and researching experiences claims.  Also I want a large number of contributors so we may hold some sway.  If you get a chance, maybe add some stories and articles.  It would be good if there was an “Indictment” section and a “Verified” section. I think legitimate people can actually do research to check if an indictment is legitimate.  Maybe get factcheck.org to help out.”

And check out this article:
http://www.alternet.org/democracy/94977/ohio’s_election_stolen_again_state_may_face_600k_voter_purge_in_coming_weeks/?cID=979918#c979918

This is one example of protest that can’t be caged!

Jg I needn’t “spout” off since your posts does it nicely.  Your points are missed because you lack the skill to make them clear.  I have no idea what you or anybody else on these blogs do to cover mouthings off.  And I do not have to list my actions to prove to rabble rousers that I put my money and my actions where my mouth is.  BS to you.  You have no idea what my political proclivities are but if you are a conscious being (which I think you are half a one), you would be able to conclude “accurately” what they are.  Also you attempt to demean my posts with inaccuracy.  Nowhere have I said either directly nor by implication that you, in particular, did nothing.  You would like to color me that way to make yourself seem larger. 

It is true that I am “full” of myself and quite arrogant.  It is well-known on these sites.  If you think MSM is The Place man, in the 21st century Internet generation, you are out of it, man.  If you think that is The Place where “average citizen” goes, then it is your responsibility to do more, not sit on any laurels from 2003.  Speaking of arrogance, why do you think you are the only one who physically protested or donated to further protests?  Big f’n deal. 

And by the way KDelphi, be careful you don’t keep stepping in that pile of horseshit you are whoaing about.  Exactly what research is Jg giving this forum?  You are as full of bs as she is.  Sorry you don’t have the intellectualism to appreciate it when you see it.  But that is the way the world is.  Some can understand and others can’t.  Your accusations are stupid. 

You insinuate I am fascist?  Again, obvious stupidity.  More like it, are you a fascist communist who thinks everybody has to think exactly like you?  You might take a moment to reflect on the true nature of your beliefs. But I doubt you hardly know what the word self-reflect means.  The fact that Obama is the only candidate of the only two who has a rat’s ass chance of getting elected who can change anything does not seem to be seeping into your pathetically small mind.

She—Woah! You are finally taking on someone “your own size”, who is “educated and does research” (which you always accuse others ofnot doing) and your resort to cursing and name-calling—why? Your intellectualism failing you?(It always does) You better be careful, she, or youre going to become an obama-worshiping , pretentious bitch! If Obama loses, (and he should be so acing this!) it wil bge because of people like you, who should know better, about things like free speech, but just use big words and web links to justify the obfiscation of what5 I know have to be their own values…you guys really believe in freedom of speech and dissent, dont you? Or are you really just a fascist? Why dont you spend some time doing something besides trying (and failing) to convince everyone that obama is GOD? Go do something like JG or myself tdid and get yurself a big FBI file! Then, maybe you’ll have some credability. Until then,...you sound like a pretentious bitch.Attack me, and all working class people-0-that shoudl REALLY help, since that is where obama is failing—if you were really intelligent , youwould know that. But, some Scientologists and Moonies are apparently intelligent too. So were some fascists—but, they lost in the end, because they quashed dissent. As Ghandi said (NO—I stil do not want to spend the time to look ti up, she! lol)(Confucious say—get the gist of the quote, not the words right—dont quote me on that. He also said, “Much noise on stairs—no one appears!” Dont quote me on that quote either!)) Ghandi—how do you keep faith? “Because everytime a dictator rises up , they succeed and then—they always fall. Think of it. Always.” That is how I’ll try to keep fatith , too. Jesus, Mohammed Ghandi—they didnt hang around schmoozing with intellectuals and taking tropical trips while people died from a lack of housing and health care. But, they always fail. Think of it…

She:  As per the usual blowhards on this website, you totally missed the point I was making.  I happened to be at the anti Iraq war protests in ‘03 marching on the ice covered streets of Philadelphia.  I have stood outside of movie theaters and malls handing out hand made fliers and cds with other concerned citizens. I have written more letters to the editor of papers than you probably have read.  So how dare you insinuate I’ve done nothing.

My point was, which you are probably too DENSE to comprehend, because you are so full of yourself, is that msm is where the average citizen gets their news.  NOT mother jones, or Bill Moyers or Amy Goodman, BBC etc. Places where we progressives (which if u are an obamabot I don’t consider you one)  I’ll repeat to you once again slowly so even you can understand.  If   it   isn’t   on   tv
it     didn’t     happen.  I’m not saying that’s right.  I’m saying that’s reality.

I’ve done my job as far as trying to wake up as many of those people as possible as stated above.  What have YOU done but spout your mouth off and criticize others with your wordy and pretentious posts?

Hardly naive, JG.  Just recognizing the lack of invention and creativity to make your own press (you in the collective sense).  If MSM is in the pocket of the politicians (and I too think they are, even PBS except for Bill Moyers), then it is time to subscribe up the yingyang to such news instruments as Mother Jones, Slate, Pacifica Radio, the BBC, Third World Traveler, you know, the media you listen to, right?  Why think that MSM is the only venue for news.  Check out Alternative News Sources at World-newspapers.com or FlyingFish.org.  Why not ask Bill Moyers to comment on the “caging” situation?  He gets more viewers than NPR.  The public doesn’t see what the reality is because they are the reality.  I say the hell with the press and MSM.  The “public” can always stop watching MSM, or taking their whitewashed newspapers.  Heck there already is a fallout of MSM newspapers either shutting down or cutting down because of the effects of Internet news.  Check out the cutbacks at the LA Times.  You know, you are so pablum in your thinking that it is laughable.

I hardly remember any American protests against going to war with Iraq.  I think it is you and your company who are naive.  Check out the articles about why there were no or hardly any American protests:  Here are a few sites to check out, http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2007/04/why_no_violent.html

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/11/05/wheres_the_protest/

Read the article from the International Herald Tribune about the subdued protests in America at http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/12/america/letter.php

You know, do some real F***’n research before shouting off your mouth, and stop complaining and do something constructive.

Now the g**d*mn Patriot Act stifled a lot of protest, but there is no such Act against protesters at a g**d*mn political convention!  And caged or not, voices can be heard and news made.  My goodness, it depends on the passion, my deah JG.  It has to be real.

Worldwide, yes, there were vehement protests, American flag burning, and the like.  But when does Washington ever listen to the world?  Especially when Washington seduced the large nations to join them in their illegal invasion of Iraq:  England, Canada, France, Germany, even Japan sent soldiers to Iraq.  It was a multi-national force.  Here check out the Wikipedia entry on what countries sent troups to Iraq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

Get real.  I am sick of the complaint about MSM.  MSM will go away if they are ignored.  If the public is so conditioned to listen to MSM then it is up to those who criticize to change the conditions.  I do not listen to MSM.  Who the F*** cares what those automatons say?  They always say the same things and you are right, they coat everything to have the flavor of the Washington side of things.

Problem is that there are not enough protesters, not enough ingenuity to get the message to “the people,” but there is a lot of blathering about it.  You just don’t like being called out on your own feeble thinking.  Can’t say as I blame you.

Adam: Thanks for the article. But we know it won’t happen. Americans won’t stick their neck out even if it means saving their own country and their own future. Sad but true.  So many don’t even know the dire straits we are in. I always wondered why the German people didn’t stop Hitler.  I wonder no more.

‘The Democratic and Republican conventions will test the commitment of the two dominant U.S. political parties to the cherished tradition of dissent.’

the u.s. has one political party with 2 names

well, if we can’t talk about crazy plans, then why bother?

By Adam, August 16 at 1:51 pm #

jersey girl, check out:
http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/strike/index.shtml

But how do you convince the co-opted white-collared to go on strike? hmmmmmm

~~~~~

Adam, not sure how to break this news to you, but it is NOT the ‘white-collared’ who won’t go on strike. (though they wouldn’t either, but they don’t even figure in to your crazy plan).

Nope, it is the working middle class that won’t go on strike, because THEY have been captured, (which is NOT the same as ‘co-opted”) into a trap that doesn’t allow them to ‘go on strike’. (or at least that’s their perception, and it is a correct one, in terms of survival).

THIS is the result of Union busting, and the decades long take-over of corporations. The people who slave at Wal-Mart are HARDLY ‘white-collared’. The people who serve and have served the public interest in so far as government jobs are concerned, are NOT ‘white-collared’.

No, you need the BLUE COLLAR class to go on strike, and to the extent that there is even one still operating in the US, they will not, because they need to survive. They need to feed themselves and their families, and they need to feed loud mouth ideologues that wouldn’t be able to survive themselves, if the grocery workers went on strike, or the street cleaners, or the water workers, or the transportation people, or the agricultural people who grow and pick your food, or the truck drivers who deliver it, or the emergency workers who respond in the event or natural or man created disasters, or the utility workers who keep your lights on and your heat flowing.

When all of those BLUE collar workers go on strike, and the shit all comes to a complete halt, the WHITE collard elite will be protected. They’ll have their own generators, and their own supplies of food, and their own private water access, and their own airplanes and pilots, and the rest of you will be searching around in the dark, looking for toilet paper to deal with the effects of you shitting yourself, because you’re totally incapable of surviving without these services.

Maybe Jersey Girl can help you out.

jersey girl, check out:
http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/strike/index.shtml

But how do you convince the co-opted white-collared to go on strike? hmmmmmm

btw—this Compassion Forum (like the other quasi-religious debate) is SOOO Unconstitutional. It is actually pretty shocking. HOW can you be so obvious about supporting the majority religion in the uS, without alienating the pluarlity? They’re so busy making sure everyone knows Obama isnt a Muslim—that they insult Muslims! I’m more worried (after Rev. Wright—) that he is a radical, evangelical Christian. Maybe we should have somebody who isnt for a change.

I just am positive that “doing more of the same”, with a prettier face on it, is not going to help the majority of us.We NEED more choices—this 50% (well, more, actually) unhappy every four years is ridiculous. I believe in non-violence. I admire it very much. I don’t believe in sitting around getting beat up anymore than I agree that doing nothing while people die is an acceptable response. I think the American people (as well as citizens of thw world) would be able to “start fresh” (not back to where we came from—we can do better this time)if some justice was achieved in the war (and other) crimes of GWB, Rummy, etc. We’ve certainly done it for lesser things. And for the wrong things. Let’s impeach W for the things the founding fathers thought was impt. , put them on trial ( I dont believe in the death openalty), and take back the power that has been siphoned from us over the years, greatly speeded up by Reagan. Otherwise, we just have a cult of a “slightly better personality”. If they have al the power (or are constantly trying to grab it from us, and Congress, etc. wont stop them)we need to “draw a line in the sand”—lol Kidding. Couldnt help myself.

Adam: What I would like to see is all of the so called “liberal media” stop shilling for Obama and admit that he is part of the problem.  I’d like them to come out and call for a general strike.  Organize citizens to fight against the oppressive tyranny that is manifesting itself in our lives more every day.  Instead we are told to vote for Obama because he is the lesser of two evils.  Obama is also evil. He’s proven that with his own words and his choice of advisers.  He’s made it perfectly evident to anyone who is clear eyed enough to see the truth.  He is not a man of the people but a corporate made man who intends to serve his creators which will in turn complete the destruction of the middle class. 

A general strike is the only way we the people can make a radical impact on what will happen next.  But, we need leaders that have the power to reach millions with their words. If only the talking heads who call themselves progressive would act progressively and lead the cause. Perhaps then those who think voting for a democrat is the way out of the forest, would start to look at things differently and join the crusade to reinstate the constitution and our civil liberties.  That would be a much better may to achieve “change we can beleive in” than Obama’s hollow and phony catch phrase.

I truly believe we have the power.  There are more of us than them and they know that.  They do fear us.  What we need to do is show them that we are wise to their silly games.  Keeping us all wrapped up in arguing amongst ourselves about which candidate is the best when they are both served up to us by the powers that be. Which ever candidate wins, we lose.

KDelphi and jersey girl—ok, I of course agree that we need to walk our own streets, make our voices heard in Denver, AND use our privilege to fight on behalf of those far more disadvantaged than we are (or I am, in any case).  I guess my point has more to do with means.  I was here in Seattle in ‘99 and saw how mass protest could wake up the public to the plurality of voices present in the world, how it could help provide a language of dissent to those who might not otherwise question the WTO, US government/corporations, etc.  But! every message is dependent upon its time and place: Seattle in 1999 is such a very different time and place in history than Denver or St. Paul 2008.  If the DNC and DPD want to put The Protesters in cages, then they will: right now, they have that power and that’s the clear script this play will follow.  But it seems like the simple lessons of akido should tell us that these cages are a response to OUR power, a reaction rather than a tactical strike.  Can’t we use their force against them?  If we’re really to be non-violent (and I think we need to be for a million and one reasons), then shouldn’t we find a way to use their violence against them?  Isn’t there a way to reveal them as the fools that they are?  I’m mostly just saying that the pattern of protest and policed oppression (and yeah, I’m a news addict, and I’m well versed in what They’ve been up to outside the bounds of our Constitution —thanks, spooks, for reading this all right now, you cowards) isn’t working. 

It’s morally debilitating living in a country where so many of my fellow citizens fall for this insanity.  But our world’s problems are too massive for anything short of a mass popular movement, now!  Yeah, give the Democrats hell in Denver, but we need so much more than that.

And, if everyone who was honest with themselves about going on with sam-o, same-o, maybe one of them would win. Maybe we could make this country a good place for the majority of citizens (NOT “consumers”) again. Maybe we could avoid more war with Afghanistan. Maybe we couod prevent middle “shields” (lol) in Europe and the Middle East. Maybe—-shouldnt we give it at least one more shot, before we say, what they want us to say..“That’s just how it is”...doesnt have to be. It’s not that way in Denmark, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, Venezuela,—so many other places most Americans cant even afford to ever visit now. Obama’s trip to Europe just reminded me I’d never have the $$ to go back. All the cruises sponsored byt The Nation, air america, etc. all just remind me I’ll necver get to go on a cruise. That would all be nice…but a little hypocriticasl when the average working perosn cant afford a tank of gas or a/c. All they’re asking for is a decent life with decent housing, health care, food, freedom of thought, speech and not to be lied to. For their taxes to go for something besides death. Death of Iraqis, our own soldiers. even our own civilians—our own children…we HAVE to do better, or we are fucked…

It’s very true—this quashing of dissent has gotten worse over the past two decades. I guess that’s why, when everyone talked about, “Obama the change agent”, I waited, figured, after he was nominated, he would explsin Where the change needed to occur (Yes, I’ve seen his professionally written-up website—doesn’t impress me at all—sos)What change needed to occur, etc. Then—whee!! The speed was dizzying—run for the center (even to the right of McCain on a coupla things, eh?”) and SCREW the Dem base for the Blue Dogs, the DLC and the DNC which consists of , like 4 people now. The buzz that Obama got “most of his $$ from ‘simple bloggers”” is just bulshit. Check out MoJo.org.—Goldaman Sachs,ATT, HMOs—-so, I ask you, besides more $$ for HMOs, Wall St.(he “loves the free market”—bet so! It made him a mortgage theft multi-millionaire!)insurance/death industry murderers (Michelle Obama works for U. of Chicago Hos Assn. for $950,000 a yr.—Oh, that’s right, she quit right before the campaign—wonder why???), what exactly, is it NEW that “
you can do”?? Besides yell it, like sheep, over the honest questions of a couple of Af. Am’s, regarding the black community. The time in Iraq gets longer, MORE tax cuts for the middle class (hey, how about a food stamp increase, housing allowance, for the poor), MAYBE (heard today?? He’s even backing off of thsi one!! You must be SO proud!)reversing the Bush tax cuts for ppeople making OVER $250,000!! Do you even realize what a small part of the population that is?? You wil NEVER have the revenue to even produce your privitized programs…we SHOULD go back to the taxation system we had before St. Ronald, whom he loves to quote so much. I’m VERY angry, yes, because Obama is a fraud. And more peopel figure it out every day. And our other “choice” is McSame? Or PUMA for more Clinton policies?? (At least she wasnt giong to leave 15 million people out of her privitized program!) I’d rather sleep well and vote for Nader or McKinney…

Adam: “Time to walk my own streets, not Denver’s”

Absolutely, but both are necessary.

She:  My goodness your naivete is showing in this post:

“You know this to be true, it is an absurdity to think the “caged” dissenters will not be getting media coverage, in spite of the attempt to quash their deliberate gathering and voices.  Proximity is negligible.  It will be bigger news quite counter to what the cagers imagined.  The newsworthiness will be of untold value.  The event has not even happened yet and we are here on TD, read throughout the world, with a big discussion about it, and the likes of Amy Goodman on public radio is highlighting it on her well-known program.  We must wait to see what the benefit of dissent in this case will be.  For isn’t benefit the desired end?”

We’ve already had “caging of protesters” in NYC in ‘04 and very little was spoken of it in msm. Maybe that’s why, my dear She, you weren’t aware of it.  Many protesters, guilty of simply being on the scene and carrying signs, were held in a stifling warehouse, in the new york heat, for hours on end and yet that wasn’t a big enough story for the news media to cover widely.  You really haven’t been paying attention if you don’t know that the msm is a mouthpiece for the government.  If they don’t want the story told, it won’t be.  As obvious as the police state is to most of us who get our news from alternative sources, it’s not obvious to those that follow only msm.  So, if it ain’t on tv, it didn’t happen.  That’s exactly how the fascists like it.

You may remember that worldwide protests against going to war with Iraq were also given short shrift. The msm purposely underestimated the numbers and didn’t show much footage on the nightly news or 24/7 cable shows of the huge numbers of protesters in the streets.

The public don’t see what’s really happening on the streets because it’s simply not covered by our press.  Hurricane Katrina was the exception.  Everyone was outraged for a while and once the devastation was taken off our telescreens, it was no longer in the public’s consciousness.

If the press does decide to cover the “free speech zones” and the tazering of protesters, you can bet it will be done in a way to make the citizens look bad and HS and the cops look like heroes for dragging away those nasty loud mouthed citizens who want nothing more than to upset those nice people attending the convention.

Adam—while I agree with alot of your premise, I think that our “democracy” (lol) has strayed too far for “communities” to save themselves—I dont know where you live, but huge swathes of Ohio are just boardde-up—alot in poor, minority and disabled communities. Should they just go die?? Ohio has no jobs, money, tas base to “fix itself”. Gov. Taft did that to us, and left office with no punishment. If we let it happen, Dubya will too. It scars the psyche of a comomunity (country), to allow inhystice to go unpunished, bail out the rich guys and always blame the “victims”. I wish I coyuld show you one of these contracts that poor, old ladies signed—it wasn’t “stupidity”—they was robbed!!“Mr. Pres.” ie “Commander in Chief” cannot solve this nations’ probs—but , another really bad one could sink us beyond recovery.If the people can’t even expresss their feelings at the “nomination ceremony” (that’s what it is supposed to be—) then many give up.If people are afraid of getting a little bruised (well, ALOT—OK), then just go along. But, if you can, you should fight badck for those that can’t—can’;t afford to go, can’t walk into the cage, are fighting our disgusting war and paying for it too with the loss of their homes. One maN’S terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.(yeah, I know who said it—we CREATED Osama) I’m NOT advocating violoence. But the 4500 troops, 750,000 Iraqi civilians, 20,000 without adequate health care, would probably appreciate it if we gave it all we had! I’d like to die with my rights on, myself. But, that’s me. There are things worth righting for—oil ain’t one of them..

Hey Jersey! Glad you’re back…here. She—who in the hell are YOU to say how “highly educated” I am?! Your’e not MY professor—mine emphasized content over grammer, and high-minded rhetoric.They were Quakers, and, although I’m an atheist today—they taught me that to care about people who needed me was the great calling of being a human. Maybe I’d have to get a dictionary of philosophers to decipher your words—if that’s so, then, that’s why the people who run the Dems cannot speak to the avg. person. Check the polls.If degrees and GPA dont matter , with as little exp. as Obama has—he’s screwed! I merely inserted them, as you implied I was uneducated—twice!That’s probably because you so-called “liberal” elites (you are NOT progressives eitherr) think that anyone who is poor (or uneducated—they dont always go together)is just too plain stupid to know hwo to vote for, and if they disagree with you—you’ll just figure it out for them, while they go fight your wars, sweat under the shit of your low wages, and you teach the already-rich kids how to get richer. (How about free state universities for all?)I admit, majoring is Sociology/Philosophy is prob. not recommended as a way to survive—at the TIME i thougth I’d be poor, but, make it.Now, thanks to the GREAT NEW technology, everyone majors in Technology and Business and “the word on the street” supposedly comes from multi-millionaire rappers—not…you can’t be the party of RFK, FDR and JFK if you think you
‘re too good for most people. Try some street life with your arugula and organic egg whites. If it’s hard on the middle class , think what it’s doing to the poor—-never a word form the Dems.about them. The reason I went into ” self stuff”—is that I don’t have the $$ for a Rx that Medicaied won’t cover (I’ve been on it 25 yrs, since a child) and its fucking with my head, and OBAMA doesnt want to do ANYTHING about that! Kinda makes one think he doesnt give a shit. As for Chicago in ‘68—the “PROBLEM” in 1968 was NOT protesters or “too much free speech”—it was the DNC teaming up with state pigs and the police state to muffle freedom of speech. If theyd listened to the protesters, we might not have had Nixon and might have gotten out of Vietnam faster, better, and who knows how many lives saved. The PROBLEM in 1968 is that we didn’t go far enough—and, this time, it looks like few even want to try, or let others try AND it woudl be against Blackwater (whom most Dems—Obama included—say we “can’t do without”) Get ready of United States of Blackwater!

It’s clear that our dissent must move well beyond the usual forms of protest.  This “cage” outside the Conventions is an atrocity, but we cage ourselves when we limit our dissent to methods that have by now proven themselves woefully inadequate for our times.  Protest, in that it’s a reaction to systemic power, serves to reinforce this power—we might as well be pleading on our knees for the Democrats to listen to us, as if it’s just a matter of getting the Powers That Be to share all the privilege and freedom they’ve taken from us—we legitimize their power with our criticism.

Democracy remains the most radical form of governance on the planet, and it’s no wonder the US government has been running from it ever since the Revolution.  I say, let’s practice democracy wherever we can, and let that be our dissent.  Build communities, speak-up at work, talk to strangers about what’s possible in this country, discuss constructive measures with your neighbors, build new political parties from the bottom up (Nader’s way backfired), take action.  An informed public isn’t vital to a democracy just so that we can all vote responsibily.  An informed public is able to act for itself, care for its own needs, and then relate to its neighbors on secure terms.  We’ve given up too much responsibility to our “representatives” and “executives” and now are finding this invited bondage uncomfortable; there’s a sort of pathetic predictability about all that’s going on now.  We the people can scream all we want, but it’s our own laziness that has birthed this Orwellian land.  (And as important as the Internet is for distributing information and fostering discussion, these blogs sure can feel like substitutes for true action, thereby reinforcing our laziness.  Oy.)

Time to walk my own streets, not Denver’s.

Caging of dissenters at the democratic convention.  Well, how democratic !!  Screw the demorats !  They deserve as little respect as the repiglicans.  Obama is a repiglirat.  WHy would anyone who considers themselves a progressive vote for this corporate shill? He should be protested as well as the rest of the traitorous party.

At this point, anyone who defends Obama or the democratic party in general as any better for this country than the criminals in the white house now, I say this.  Wake up dumbass !  Both parties are corrupt and FUBAR. 

WHen a house is so infested with mold, rats and cockroaches that it is considered unfit for human habitation it is condemned and torn down.  THAT is what needs to be done with this rat infested electoral system of ours.

For the democrats to go along with “free speech zones” warehousing of protesters and using of tasers or any other form of crowd control weapons that can cause harm to innocent people, people making a point with simple signs and words, should be all the proof you need.  The dems are oki dokie with the police state because they are part of it.

PS:  Hey KDelph !

It is true now, that the protesters that are arrested will be caged and are thereby warned that Tasering will be administered to those who misbehave in any way.
What has this country come to, when the right to protest is done away with by even the Democratic Party? Are we living in America or not?
Rep. Jane Harman, (R) Cal., has made it very clear that those who dissent are going to be rounded up and disappeared, like so many countries in South America.
Disapproval of those in power will lead to nothing more than arrest, without the right to counsel, and habeaus corpus, will be a thing of the past. No longer will the Bill of Rights apply to the citizens of Amerikkka, we will be a fascist government for all but the elite. Please do your homework on House Resolution 1955 and see the coming storm of fascism.
You are no longer the citizens of a republican democracy, you are citizens of a government, of, by and for the corporations that control the branches of government that are supposed to protect the rights of its citizens. Jennifer Government, is not far off. Read the book and you will see the coming governmental formualae, for there is no longer a government of by and for the people.
I am ashamed that others do not see the future as it will be, for the coming storm will be one of a long and drawn out period of oppression and repression.
The watchword of the coming days is, Power to the elite and nothing for the people.
Alarmist I may be, but, I see the future for what it is, a quagmire of disappointment and discouragement for the working class and those who are poor. No longer will there be the ability to rise above one’s station, a caste society is coming to pass.
If you think that India, in the past had it hard, just wait for the coming legislation to make it through the process of becoming law.
Should I live long enough, I will be one of those who disappear, for I will not stand for my rights being taken away for the elite to squash. I will raise my voice loud and clear, so that the world will know that there is at least one person, who knows that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are the founding documents of our country.

Autobiographical sketches on the net are always fascinating, to a degree.  Of course your PS comment was meant for She.  The thing is that if a post looks a bit long, it is your choice to gloss over them and pass by to the much shorter biff bam thank you M’am posts.  No one is breaking your electronic arm to read anything.  And “speaking” for others is such a self-serving thing to do.  It is my very point:  to include the legendary “all others” in order to make one’s own point is one of the highest forms of weakness of an argument (called a fallacy).  You cannot be an unelected representative of all others much as you wish to be. 

Furthermore, there is so much bs on the net, and TD is no exception, that one cannot really be sure of anyone’s identity or autobiography as we humans are so inventive:  Just take a stroll through the fiction section of the Library of Congress.  What does it matter how many degrees you have (you don’t write as if you have even one) or your GPA?  If you really are blind, or blindish, your “highly educated” state doesn’t preclude you from being able to demonstrate an enlightened ability to write with a somewhat sophisticated mind.  Check out Jorge Luis Borges. 

The problem of health care in this country is worse than you have described and you are not the only one infuriated.  The cost of prescriptions is obscene.  Even those who think critically are infuriated that even minimum health care is denied to the poor and the middle class gets screwed on behalf of the wealthy.  That being said, dissent is one of the distinguishing marks of this country.  This country was born out of dissent, extreme rebellious dissent.  The force of this article however is not about healthcare.  It is about the right to dissent particularly at the political conventions where those in the heat of political battles that are currently going on will assemble.  It is the perfect place for dissent to take place.  However, it is best to keep arguments clarified rather than become polluted by various and sundry topics.  The point of an argument gets lost in a myriad of ideas.  It is the virtue of staying on point.  Our forefathers were rational human beings as well as fanatical dissenters.  War was the result of immoveable thought on the part of the oppressors (the British).  Freedom and liberty was the result (the United States).  The caging of the dissenters in our case has to do with more than liberty and freedom.  It is a two-edged media sword.  Either we battle with unbridled dissent (absolute right, anarchic, and aggressive), or we recognize violent elements lurk under the surface of what might appear as peaceful dissent.  The worry that dissenters’ voices will make it to YouTube is an insanity and about as ridiculous as reasons can get.  If I were among the dissenters (and psychically I am), I would raise my voice to louder decibels and give the cagers the proverbial finger.  But violent as our culture is, it is better to err on the side of safety.  Dissent may be taken (which I will do) to peaceful stages, albeit and may be as clamorous as possible, such as in printed form, radio programs, television programs, political films, peaceful marches, posters, handbills, etc.  And we can supplicate our elected officials, pay them with votes.

You know this to be true, it is an absurdity to think the “caged” dissenters will not be getting media coverage, in spite of the attempt to quash their deliberate gathering and voices.  Proximity is negligible.  It will be bigger news quite counter to what the cagers imagined.  The newsworthiness will be of untold value.  The event has not even happened yet and we are here on TD, read throughout the world, with a big discussion about it, and the likes of Amy Goodman on public radio is highlighting it on her well-known program.  We must wait to see what the benefit of dissent in this case will be.  For isn’t benefit the desired end?

From what I can tell from the description in the text of the court decision, the intent of the distance placed between the protest area and the path the delegates take to the convention hall is basically to put them out of earshot - and video shot. Protesters will be visible (though at the distance of a parking lot) to the delegates as they file in, and big lettered signs will readable. But shouting or other physical confrontations with delegates and protesters will be all but impossible. And therefore won’t end up on You Tube - which is the point. It’s not so much that they want to prevent live protest - they want to prevent viral internet videos.

Democrats are always jumpy about convention protests. To them, what went down in Chicago in ‘68 resulted in the election of President Nixon.

Unless it is the Yellow Peril, I have no fear.

PS—You can always pretend it’s because he’s a person of color.

Ignore us “ignorant peasants” at your own peril.

It is obvious you are lazy KDelphi, but if we “intellectuals-from-Berkeley” like the Denizens of Oz, want to discuss topics at a higher level than you can keep up with, there is no reason to let you drag us down.  Get a life and a snooze and get a real ejumakashun, and why do you think this forum is for only for ciphers?

Look—you guys know this is wrong—you’re just too in love with Obama to admit it. It sure would be nice to live to see the day the PEOPLE are in charge of this country , instead of “Mr. President”. Cowards.

Are you attempting to fulfill the stereotyoe of the “elitist liberal”? Do you really sit around and talk to your friends this way? Are you all philosophy professors? At Berkeley? Do you argue with Dinesh DeSuzza (sp? Dont feel like looking it up) alot? La-d—frickin’-da! Maybe I’m just lazy , but do you really think you win votes with this kind of claptrap? Really? This is NOT a college classroom. You make it a snooze. YOu make it even harder to defend why I am a Democrat (am I anymore?) I’m starting to thin k they’re right! All the CRUISES going on(The Nation—I know that’s every year;there are plenty of ohers)—I can’t afford to go to Cleveland!You guys really ARE out of touch—and, from what I can see—you dont care. You’ll be OK either way, right? Tenure and all? What DOES the DNC stand for?? Specifics, please…and quote yourself for a change—is that still allowed in DNC-land?

cyrena:’... WHAT was the original plan of the protest coalition to begin with? In other words, for the anarchists, (with whom I share some issues of concern) what exactly is the end-game or ultimate purpose? Specifically, WHAT do they hope to accomplish, in the targeting of the entire party, paying little attention to the Repugs, who have been at the base of the destruction? ....’

I imagine different protesters have different plans, purposes, agendas, hopes and so forth.  Perhaps one of the things many of them want to protest is the notion that everyone has to be organized into monolithic, authoritarian political blocs.

I believe protests have also been scheduled for the Republican convention.  But they might be more meaningful at the Democratic convention, since Obama has been far more successful than McCain at obfuscation and hand-waving.  The fact that the protests will be caged shows that at least some of the authorities fear that they will be meaningful and effective; otherwise, they would pay no attention to them.

Part 1

USHS (I hope you don’t mind if I reduce your very long pseudonym) – it seems to me Marx intention made armchair theories and was not at all like Darwin’s intense empirical scientific studies concluding in his theory of evolution, even though he himself admitted to gaps and encouraged others to continue the resesarch. 

Neither Hobbes’ nor Rousseau’s historical social contract theories are no longer answers to current American society.  The question about legitimacy and political obligation and the binding force of hypothetical agreement now have to do with fairness and liberty of an almost entropic, albeit ethnically diverse and almost chaotic, population.  A legitimate social contract is obviously required and the underlying force of anarchy of absolute right of the individual is unacceptable within the constraints of such an organized.  If it is promoted then no society of any consequence is existent.  No homogenous education and hence no progress is possible or if it is, it would be at a snail’s pace and hardly significant. 

Dworkin’s question of how a hypothetical agreement can bind any actual person gives strength to the idea to the choice of leaving a society that insists on such binding regardless of what outside that society might offer, even if it is next to nothing or nothing at all.  Supposing acceptance, Rawls’ proposes that once we factually accept the condition of trustees (i.e., representative) they are agreed to for specific and certain purposes and that we take interest in this condition both morally and otherwise politically.  Thus being agreed to makes a regime legitimate, and by negative implication, by not dissenting, furthermore gives it legitimacy.  Gauthier’s and Buchanan’s contractarian theories give legitimacy of regimes for their conservative acceptability that encompasses diverse points of view represented within relevant communities and is therefore also contractually enforceable which contributes to the realization of personal goals.  It is the prudent (cautious and conservative) thing to do.  I can see how this would be appealing to those whose self-interest overrides interest of the whole population, and it would work I say for ethnically streamlined groups (which are being warred for in Georgia and I dare say Israel, and also Iraq today).  Homogeneity in those places as well as Darfur, of ethnically diversity, is not desired by those who have the power to prevent it.

Nozick’s disagreement to contractual thought that the legitimacy of pre-defined structures of justice is volatile, extremely erratic as distinguished from the historical principles of how such principles have been acquired is safeguarded against, in my mind, in that the standard is bound and must be renewed by a democratic process of public voting to retain or change the status.

Part 2
Ackerman’s challenge to contractual theory says that a course of such social contracts can be manipulated, and rightly so.  We are witnesses to that most visibly in the last couple of national elections.  Of course, lifting all restrictions to choices of situations, and alternatives from which choices may be made, and who the choosers could be, would mediate that challenge, getting rid of all arbitrary elements; however that leaves in fact no choice at all were all biases eliminated, since what would be the point of having a contract in the first place, leaving the contract in effect empty. The other possibility for Ackerman is that the contract is formally set up (rigged as it were). 

This latter is where I think the criticisms are emerging about the Democrats and there is I agree more than a veneer for legitimate criticism.  I also think ordinary Democrats, composed of the majority of the hoi polloi, are not used to modern politics. Many are only in the last decade becoming educated on the wiles of the world and what is really in their own best interests.  It is not an easy thing to see through the ‘net rather than veil of ignorance.’  They abbrogate their authority to the “professional” politicians who themselves are not that skilled or whose vision is also colored by misplaced idealisms. 

This situation however in my mind does not justify an anarchist point of view nor ought to allow for the removal of dissent as a sacred freedom.

The solutions of creating other parties by others speaking on this forum would work if we had a parliamentary system.  That requires a complete national acceptance which I my mind is pure fantasy to expect.  Given that the ideal system for dissent is not available we must work within the system we have, as I believe that change of this magnitude is only feasible by assimilating and changing from within the structures.  Non-intellectuals want war.

I didnt say I thought the GOP was better—I think it is worse—but that’s what people thought in Chicago.I DID vote for Hillary—but think PUMA is “wierd” (I dont know how else to put it). I wanted Health Coverage for All—and dont say we’re getting it out of Obama—read the DNC platform, not the netroots, which is being discounted; McCain sucks (didnt used to); think Hillary getting a roll call is just a nod, but it might make people feel better—not me. And I’d still vote for Edwards, because he woudl do some things I think are good for USA—I feel awful for Elizabeth—peoples’ sex lives are none of my business. Neither is their religion (compassion forums’ ass!)C’mon, scream ,you bloody “christians”—prove my point! I dont care if Obama was a Muslim (I KNOW HES NOT!!!He’s a radical Christian!). We shoudlve been ablr to go with a “Kucinich” this time—the wind is at our backs, but the Obamanniacs are acting like a paranoid bunch of totaliatarian assholes…I dont know who the hell I’ll vote for, but it wont be Obama, McCain or Hillary. After 30 yrs. the DNC can SO kiss my ass!

multiples essays, I should say—well, I should think back to college or look up a bunch of scholars/philosophers to quote, but, people, the bottom line is this: the DNC is applying the same tecbniques the RNC has for about a decade (I’m not saying they werent used before) The surprise is that the DNC is repeating the 1968-72 crap and thinks it will work this time. Anyone disagreeing with Obama (even those pledging to vote for him, like netroots, Get- FISA-right, etc.) have been summarily silenced. Delegates are not being allowed to attend, DNC doesnt return calls, “Freedom Forums” are advertised and then, signs say, “Unity Arund Obama Picnic”!! This is no way to win an election, folks. If we cant do better , we dont deserve to win. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it 100x—IF THE DEMS CANT ACE IT AFTER 8 YEARS OF W< THEY SHOULD DISBAND!! The “freedom cage” is Dubya’s “free speech zone” and “yes we can” shouted to young black men is Dubya’s “USA!” If you dont see it , you are deluded!

What do you expect when the so called Democratic? Party is hell bent on transforming the U.S. into a MARXIST Country. Anyone with half wit brains knows Marxist ideology does not want DISSENT and neither does the DEMOCRATS ELITES. The Republicans are right there with them just a matter of degree.
If we are to continue to maintain FREEDOM from PARTY ELITES controlling everything including the air you breathe(look for a clean air tax)then it is time to dump both parties and create a true party expressing the will of the people.There is a balance between socialism and the free enterprise system.

Of course it is news that Barak Obama will be nominated in a fortress protected by legions of para-military police forces while any arrested dissenters will be rounded up in a concentration camp for the duration of the convention.  The DNC has adopted the strategy used by the RNC to eliminate dissent during the Bush years but they have carried it further by threatening bodily harm to detainees.  Of course this is news - unwelcome news for Obama’s fan club, I’m sure.

Re: Amy Goodmans column stating that dissent is now going the way of the world; This is totally old news.
I was in attendance at the 2nd Coronation of King George II, and believe me dissent was and is a thing of the past.
No longer are protesters allowed to voice their opinions regarding policy decisions. It will be a crime soon to persuade those in power, and the people of the wrongness of many policies and decisions that are made in our name. You have Rep. Jane Harman, R. Cal. to thank for the abomination of a bill, H.R. 1955 that will outlaw trying to change someone’s opinion by “force” of logic.
This bill will do away with the rights guaranteed us by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
There will be no more America as we once knew it, Amerikkka, will be the standard by which all other countries judge themselves. We are fast becoming, if not already have become a fascist state that looks out for the means of power, without seeking the greatest good for the greatest number of people.
Much like 1984, there will be a select few that control the knowledge that is passed on to those who work and for the select few, there will be luxury beyond belief.
I, for one, hope that I do not live to see the country that I cherish, become this abomination of elitism and fascism.
The cry of Patrick Henry, “Give me liberty or give me death,” will apply to all who know the truth about this country and the founders of it. It scares me to think that the Neo-Cons have so corrupted this country that they now have a stranglehold on the MSM and the educational system, this educational system which turns out not critical thinking citizens, who are able to discern for themselves the truth, but more-offs, who take the soundbites given to them by the MSM, as truth and go about their daily lives as if there is nothing wrong with this country.

USHSDofe, of course one can dissipate a definition however one wants unless communication is desired.  The small refresher history lesson is interesting and may have seeds of truth to it, but it is aside from my point.  Or actually you make my point, by spouting your own emotional self-service.  The way to rid the world of despotic monsters is not to resort to lawlessness, but to strengthen the checks and balances of a division of power.  While I mentioned Hobbes’ world has lapsed, Hobbes was not wrong in fearing anarchy.  Liberalism need not sit in the middle between anarchy and despotism.  And it didn’t for such liberal philosophers as Locke.  It is from Locke that the founders of America base many of their ideas of liberty and freedom. 

It is pure folly to think that a huge and diverse population could possibly come together and agree to form a functional government without a political organization.  While as an atheist I fully believe humans are capable of developing a sense of morality without the imposition of dogmatic religion, I also firmly believe that it cannot develop out of a vacuum but must be based on an educated society that has homogenously developed firm ideas of what morality is.  It is the ambiguity of uncertain moral convention that allows doctrinaire religions to determine moralities of one size does not fit all and hence constant conflict.  Agreement within society of acceptable human behavior is possible without the rejection of a cohesive state with freely elected leaders, yes leaders, but to include your point, leaders who do represent, and if they don’t then a system to get rid of them.  Marx is not my hero although I believe he had a workable vision on how a large population could exist equitably with an equitable distribution of the labor and the rewards of that labor.  Corruption may seep into any system.  Vigilance is demanded but wisdom must accompany the watchers and agreement as to the remedies for corruption.  I do not believe spontaneous order is possible in a diverse society but I do believe chaos is possible from unfounded and promoted fear.  I would not have America be anything but a diverse society, hence I support a community of equitable rules and a functional democratic lawful state system.

Voluntarist or anarchic structure may work in ethnically pure societies where members start out the same in many respects.  The reality is that while each are human beings the world is not of a single fabric.  Vote however you like.  But it is more fruitful to assimilate into a group and change the group from within.

Cyrena, interesting, when I started Amy’s article, the words “Nice of you to show up” crossed my mind.  Where’s she been?

I cannot say I am enamored with anarchy and anarchists.  As a rule, the root word itself means without a ruler and by implication means a government without political order.  It is a state of no law, no governing body.  And I most certainly believe in the rule of the people.  Even if “the group of anarchists have agreed to specific principles, I believe it is a nihilistic form of group behavior not conducive to a state as large as the United States, nor any other country of substance.  Make no mistake, the notion of anarchy is not the ideal of freedom within a consonant group.  And although it is absolutely true that dissent is a barricade against tyranny, and regardless of the viciousness of imperialism that continues to exist, Hobbes description of the brutish existence no longer applies without qualification to the contemporary world we find ourselves in:  A world in which communication is world-wide, different values exposed of the various national and ethnic groups that must be mediated, and rational and cooperative salvation of the planet for its continuance as a planet.  Those who promote anarchistic ideals are selfish and self-serving and have no business existing within a society.  Those who promote anarchistic ideals must be given a voice within the tenets of democratic and the beloved desirable freedom of speech, however, sedition of a democratic institution need not and must not be accepted.  The voice of dissent must be protected even with one’s life.  However, whatever is the content of the dissent does not necessarily mean it is good and worthwhile.  The rule of democratic law for an aggregate group is the only path to a happy survival.  As a force, anarchy has its elemental benefit in that it promotes individualism which in itself is not only genetic but actually preserves the group if there is limited basic self-interest.  However, the health of the group is not served well by extreme self-concern, which anarchy is.

The reason why it is unclear “what people want to do” in any situation is because “the people,” as I have suggested many times before, is an abstract and ambiguous coneption.  Open conflict over individual idealisms do not work for a heterogenous entity such as a country like America, nor any democratically organized state as far as history can tell.  Large ideas that are easily seen as beneficial for the individuals of the group as a group cohere the group as a group and progress may then be made.  It is too easy to call on a fictionalized whole and say that one’s small ideal represents that whole.  It is comforting for an individual to do that even though it is a condition that does not really exist.  One must be very careful that the lemming effect does not drive a mindless herd in the wrong fanatical direction.

A party of people who will be willing to sleep & eat in barracks as bad as the one shown in the news the military are in, if they expect them to do so. To eat beans, & cornbread, forever if necessary rather than to let others go without. Give me a group of like minded folks: and we CAN & WILL turn this country around like our ancestors set it up for! some folks who have gone THRU the depression, and KNOW what it is like to make a penny pinch a penny. To go after those who deliberately harmed the people for profit with the full authority of the law; and those who knowingly allowed this to be done, and those who profitted from it;  let there be a group of environmentalists & scientists who work NOT for the big companies but for the better ment of the PEOPLE, the LAND, and the WATER of this country. Who REFUSE to use men/women of this country like cannon fodder & throw away like refuse! to whom the PEOPLE of this country ARE the main concern & their SAFETY from those who would knowingly DECEIVE, VICTIMIZE, and harm be charged. AS IS THE LAW supposed to be! To those who would work together to spread the LIE all military personnel are mental cases because the Corps want minimum wage/no benefits; they get it all & the people are enslaved; (our Gov & Corps) be charged with slavery. It is illegal in every nation on this earth I believe. And then to deliberately allow the CRIMINAL & FRAUD of credit cards; and hound them night and day AGAINST the law; creating additional stress while DENYING them jobs; ah, there is a special place in hell for those; YOUR current exisiting Gov folks: weep;

the PEOPLE of this country are EXTREMELY concerned over “the way the nation is going”; we need to have a PEOPLE party: a party full of citizens who have a PASSION for the PEOPLE of THIS COUNTRY. Who REFUSE to accept bribes & money to victimize, exploit, & harm the people of this country. Who if minimum wage is going to be $5.95 an hour THAT is what THEY THEMSELVES will be willing to take; who will TAKE the LEADERSHIP of this country: and PUT the CORPS in their PLACE; THIS is what the Gov was set up to do: alas, they DID NOT; & now the Corps run everything, with the Gov; and the People are paying the price in so many ways it is unreal; Constitution & Common sense! Big Business profits were to have paid for everything that YOU currently are taxed on; usury laws were set up to PROTECT ciitzens; gone; the FDA is a JOKE, set up to HARM the citizens; what “appears” to be a “law” is overturned by them claiming that “it is for the better good” ONLY of the pocket books of Chemical companies & Pharma companies; the deliberate targeting, victimization, & harm done to the many for the profit of a few is UNACCEPTABLE. The training of torturers always for other countries UNACCEPTABLE. The billing of people for Corp taxes is UNACCEPTABLE. The VERY GOV who “claims” to be their to “protect” the people is WHO THE PEOPLE NEED PROTECTION FROM!

Part 1 of 2

With all due respect to Amy Goodman, this is pretty much old news about the targeting (and caging) of those who dissent. At least eight years old. Hundreds of groups have been spied upon, with data collected and maintained in multiple databases for years now. Everybody from the Catholic Workers to the groups protesting the torture training centers like the former School of the Americas (now the Western Hemisphere something or other) have been targeted. The commercial air transportation system ‘watch list’ has now grown to over a million names. Data mining is profuse, and any regular citizen trying to get anywhere near the Capitol these days would find it next to impossible. Protest anything, and one is immediately whisked away, and the media rarely if ever reports on it. Passports issued in the past few years all have electronic ‘chips’ in them.

So my really serious question for Amy and those involved in mass protest at the Democratic Conventions and of the Democratic Party as a whole, comes from this.

•  “After Barack Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee, the protest coalition in Denver splintered, as many were motivated originally by the anticipated nomination of the more hawkish Hillary Clinton.

WHAT was the original plan of the protest coalition to begin with? In other words, for the anarchists, (with whom I share some issues of concern) what exactly is the end-game or ultimate purpose? Specifically, WHAT do they hope to accomplish, in the targeting of the entire party, paying little attention to the Repugs, who have been at the base of the destruction?

Yeah, yeah, I know and admire their willingness to call it all off, if the federal monies provided were put to REAL security. Be that as it may, what is the purpose of attacking the structure without something else to put in its place? (and they don’t put any of that forward).

Of COURSE a splintering was going to occur, regardless of who the democratic nominee turned out to be, because Hillary *is* a hawk, and representative of everything that is wrong with the DLC. Obama’s presence on the political scene is what already represents a departure from that. 

So, I’m confused. This ‘splintering’ of the Democratic Party has been going on for a long time, put in full speed by the Obama candidacy. That may not have been his intention, or even the conscious intention of ‘the movement’, since his claim (naïve at worst I suppose) was to UNITE the people of all parties. Still, the guy wouldn’t have even bothered running at all, if it wasn’t apparent to the whole country, that a large segment of the Dems are in the same bed with the repugs of their corporate ilk. That SEEMS like it should be a no-brainer. So, I get the ‘dissent’ part of that.

What I still don’t get is what the anarchists really WANT from all of this. A break-away of *real* progressives from the establishment DNC was already in the making, and continues. (PDA) So, what was to be accomplished by the large (and seemingly UNfocused) efforts of the dissenters? And it IS ‘unfocused’ because we don’t have a clue to what they wish to replace it with, or what particular political ideologies they represent, besides ‘unconventional’ which sure as hell could mean anything.

For instance, Libertarians claim to be unconventional as well, while at the same time espousing free market capitalism with zero government regulation. Nothing unconventional about THAT…since it’s exactly what has brought us to our knees over the past 4 decades. It’s a survival of the fittest scheme, and as we now see, the larger percentage of us hasn’t survived, because all of the protections afforded by regulation, (or even Constitutional Law) have been destroyed. What kept the corporate power from BEING the government, were those regulations. Now they are one and the same, and the power of the government supports the corporate part of what is the same entity.

Part 2 of 2

So what is it exactly, that the dissenters wish to replace the corrupted part of the system WITH? That’s been my question for ages, because they don’t seem to have worked that out. Instead, it’s more like a full speed ahead chemotherapy procedure. Well just destroy/weaken/breakdown the entire system, and ‘hopefully’ if it all works out, whomever/whatever survives, will be the right ‘element.” The more probable result is to throw the collective baby out with the bath water, because there is no organization.

In fact, this is so typical. We were ‘divided’ long ago, but since The Coup of 2000, we’ve been under attack just as the Iraqis have been under attack, since 2003 when that society was intentionally destabilized. And we’ve taken on the same characteristics of that same inevitability. Since they were attacked, dozens upon dozens of ‘groups’ and factions have developed, all of them with different and oftentimes opposing interests, and so the whole society has become a fractured hodge-podge of competing factions. All the better to be controlled by the occupiers.

I don’t see anything different here at home. We are attacked from within by a gang of occupiers, and now we’ve got several hundred independent groups with NO organization between them, and more chaos, which just continues the internal instability, which keeps the occupiers in control. The republicans are still intact, since they maintain their diabolical unity at all costs. And the majority of us wonder how that minority of them, still manages to maintain such control over the rest of us.

NOT so funny how that all works out, time after time after time, whenever that plan is executed.

Meantime, I still prefer to do the eradication procedure with a bit more organization and detailed effort. Like, can we identify and remove the cancerous cells individually, without killing off a bunch of healthy ones at the same time? And what are we planning as the product result?

Just wondering.

The cowardly pussocrats completely disgust me!!

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/13/city-readies-warehouse-for-mass-dnc-arrests/

Cynthia McKinney 2008

It’s as though we are undergoing a quiet revolution by which the rules of government are being radically changed before our eyes.  The constitution is deemed obsolete by those in power.  Never has the public been so irrelevant to the political process as we are today.  Both parties are saying, “We don’t give a damn what you think or what you want.”  After seven years of the most corrupt government in the nation’s history, speaker Pelosi says she doesn’t see any evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors on the part of the administration.  It is clear that democrats in congress are complicit in much of that corruption and it is naive to expect that electing more democrats is going to bring about any sudden changes.

They better make sure that they get even more less lethal pepperball weapons and riot gear. Both conventions must ensure the safety of the public. I don’t want to turn on the tv and see law enforcement with just two pepperball launchers. The city and the convention must invest heavily in less lethal technology for this event. No tasers simply because of the uncertainty of the weapon.

To know to protest & fail to do so is a sin: ABRAHAM LINCOLN; Woodrow Wilson lamented (Pres during WW1) we are NO LONGER a nation of the FREE nor even MAJORITY VOTE: but rather under the RULES & DICTATES of a few dominant men; (the 2 have “pretended” to be different tho every one of them states repeatedly there is no difference between the 2 of them) they were BOUGHT & PAID FOR by Big Business a long time ago; PERHAPS the PEOPLE of this COUNTRY can fINALLY SEE that it is a “shell” a SHAM NOT a democracy; but a DICTATORSHIP; and their plans for the citizens of the USA are NOT for good but for evil; there is a huge anti illegal immigration rally planned along with Bob Barr, Alan Keyes, & Chuck Baldwin, all 3 running for Presidency as well as Lou Dobbs & others; probably going to put them in “isolation” for years as well; determined to go full speed ahead with THEIR agenda;