Top Leaderboard, Site wide
September 30, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


China and Its Challenges




The Underground Girls of Kabul


Truthdig Bazaar more items

 
Report

Georgia War a Neocon Election Ploy?

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Aug 12, 2008
McCain and Saakashvili
AP photo, Mary Altaffer / Irakli Gedeniedze, pool

October comes early? Sen. John McCain and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

By Robert Scheer

Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election?

Before you dismiss that possibility, consider the role of one Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain’s senior foreign policy adviser.

Previously, Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

There are telltale signs that he played a similar role in the recent Georgia flare-up. How else to explain the folly of his close friend and former employer, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, in ordering an invasion of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, an invasion that clearly was expected to produce a Russian counterreaction? It is inconceivable that Saakashvili would have triggered this dangerous escalation without some assurance from influential Americans he trusted, like Scheunemann, that the United States would have his back. Scheunemann long guided McCain in these matters, even before he was officially running foreign policy for McCain’s presidential campaign.

In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia’s membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia’s Vladimir Putin.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide
Scheunemann is at the center of the neoconservative cabal that has come to dominate the Republican candidate’s foreign policy stance in a replay of the run-up to the war against Iraq. These folks are always looking for a foreign enemy on which to base a new Cold War, and with the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime, it was Putin’s Russia that came increasingly to fit the bill.

Yes, it sounds diabolical, but that may be the most accurate way to assess the designs of the McCain campaign in matters of war and peace. There is every indication that the candidate’s demonization of Russian leader Putin is an even grander plan than the previous use of Saddam to fuel American militarism with the fearsome enemy that it desperately needs.

McCain gets to look tough with a new Cold War to fight while Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, scrambling to make sense of a more measured foreign policy posture, will seem weak in comparison. Meanwhile, the dire consequences of the Bush legacy that McCain has inherited, from the disaster of Iraq to the economic meltdown, conveniently will be ignored. But the military-industrial complex, which has helped bankroll the neoconservatives, will be provided with an excuse for ramping up a military budget that is already bigger than that of the rest of the world combined.

What is at work here is a neoconservative, self-fulfilling prophecy in which Russia is turned into an enemy that expands its largely reduced military, and Putin is cast as the new Josef Stalin bogeyman, evoking images of the old Soviet Union. McCain has condemned a “revanchist Russia” that should once again be contained. Although Putin has been the enormously popular elected leader of post-Communist Russia, it is assumed that imperialism is always lurking, not only in his DNA but in that of the Russian people.

How convenient to forget that Stalin was a Georgian, and indeed if Russian troops had occupied the threatened Georgian town of Gori they would have found a museum still honoring the local boy, who made good by seizing control of the Russian revolution. Indeed five Russian bombs were allegedly dropped on Gori’s Stalin Square on Tuesday.

It should also be mentioned that the post-Communist Georgians have imperial designs on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. What a stark contradiction that the United States, which championed Kosovo’s independence from Serbia, now is ignoring Georgia’s invasion of its ethnically rebellious provinces.

For McCain to so fervently embrace Scheunemann’s neoconservative line of demonizing Russia in the interest of appearing tough during an election campaign is a reminder that a senator can be old and yet wildly irresponsible.

Click here to check out Robert Scheer’s book,
“The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.”


Keep up with Robert Scheer’s latest columns, interviews, tour dates and more at www.truthdig.com/robert_scheer.



Get truth delivered to
your inbox every week.

Previous item: NATO, Georgia and the Ready-Made War

Next item: Don’t Cage Dissent



New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

By Yuriy, September 8, 2008 at 8:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think, Americans are choosing now between war and peace. Between McCain and Obama

Report this

By Folktruther, September 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm Link to this comment

AndreyAA’s account conforms to a timeline written by a prof at Global Exchange.  The looniest part of the timeline is that at after the Russian response, Geogia declared war on Russia!  They were offically at war for a half hour before President loonyashvili asked for a ceasefire.  This is a leader that the US is giving a billion dollars to rebuild his military.

Report this

By cyrena, September 6, 2008 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

By AndreyAA, September 6 at 12:40 pm

•  “I believe in a world community that will view Sukashvili’s inhuman orders as a war crime and an outrage on humanity. I believe in you, thinking person, able to confront with facts, person who will not follow barefaced propaganda of deeply corrupt media, person able to recognize truth!”

Well AndreyAA, if it matters, thanks for writing this truth. I know I recognize it, (because I know how deeply corrupt the media is) and because we’ve lived with these same ‘tactics’ so many times before. Lying to start wars is very much an American Imperial habit, and Georgia has been coopted to the same effect. I’d be willing to bet that Sukashvili wouldn’t have attempted this without assurances from the US gangster regime.

Still, WE know what’s going on. Sukashvili can just stand trial at the Hague with the rest of them.

Report this

By AndreyAA, September 6, 2008 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

At 7 p.m. on August 8, the day when Olympics started, worldwide community heard from CNN and BBC news that Russian tanks invaded Georgia and that Russia started war with Georgia.

That the war had begun 16 hours earlier by Georgian president Sukashvili’s order these media preferred to pass over in silence.

But you have the right to know truth. That’s how this really happened:

According to old tradition of Olympic Games’ eve everyone was looking for peace and quiet. On August 7, Georgian and South Ossetian officials agreed to observe a ceasefire and hold debates in attempt to solve their long-term conflict peacefully.

August 8, 00:06
Just hours later, six minutes past midnight on August 8, inhabitants of Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, peacefully sleeping in their beds, heard dreadful whizz of incoming rockets. The hell followed soon… Without any declaration Georgian forces launched massive shelling of Tskhinvali with all available means, including heavy artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems GRAD. In this massacre, in just several hours, the whole city was ruined: 2,000 human lives wasted and most buildings demolished. Georgian military expedition, called “Clean field”, yielded its first fruits…

August 8, 03:00
Georgian army occupied five Ossetian villages, burning them to ashes.

August 8, 03:30
Georgian tanks started attack on Tskhinvali. Ossetian militia stood up to the enemy but could not keep back 30-times outnumbering Georgian forces. Many basements where Ossetins tried to escape shelling were showered with grenades. At the very same time, Georgian “peacekeepers”, serving in South Ossetia, launched unexampled attack on their yesterday’s colleagues, Russian peacekeepers, managing to kill at least 10 of them.

August 8, 04:33
Russia called for UN Security Council meeting to put a stop to Georgian military aggression and seize fire. No decision was delivered at neither this nor several following meetings.

August 8, 09:00
Russian Prime Minister Putin informed President Bush that Georgia launched war against Ossetia. Mr. Bush answered that “nobody wanted this war”.

Ossetia was praying for help. It was already obvious that “clean field” meant nothing else but ethnical cleansing. In these circumstances, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russia would defend Russian citizens who constitute 90% of South Ossetia population.

August 8, 16:00
Russian forces overstepped mountain pass and made their way toward perishing Ossetins. That was exactly the moment when CNN and BBC finally “noticed” the war and broadcasted their «Russians invaded Georgia» scenes. Sukashvili announced that Russia invaded Georgia and held back that he started this horrible bloodshed himself.

Before midnight, Russian and Ossetian forces kicked aggressors out of Ossetian capital. Survived citizens started to leave basements to escape the city. In the next couple days around 30,000 refugees fled to Russia.

Failed Georgian assault turned to informational blackout and devilish propaganda by politicized media feeding us their lies. It’s time when so much depends on your personal position! I believe that there will be journalists who can give objective picture of these events. I believe in people of peace who will regard an attempt of massive extermination of small nation as genocide (3% of South Ossetins and 0.3% of all Ossetins worldwide were killed in just one night on August 8; fascists have never achieved that efficiency in exterminating Jewish people even when Auschwitz and Treblinka were working at full capacity). I believe in a world community that will view Sukashvili’s inhuman orders as a war crime and an outrage on humanity. I believe in you, thinking person, able to confront with facts, person who will not follow barefaced propaganda of deeply corrupt media, person able to recognize truth!

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, September 1, 2008 at 8:33 am Link to this comment

cann4ing: ’... Nice tactic, there, Folktruther.  Without a scintilla of evidence, you made the outrageous statement that Barack Obama would engage in torture. ...

It’s like the French general says in The Battle of Algiers.  (And actually said in real life.)  If you want to maintain control, if you want to maintain the state, then you must do the things which are required to maintain control.  To maintain control over a dissident population, you have to terrorize, imprison, torture and kill a certain number of the dissidents.  If you don’t do it yourself directly, you have to have someone else do it for you.  Obama, like other Western leaders, wants to control Afghanistan and do “nation-building.”  Therefore….

That’s just the way it is.  Power has a price.

If you haven’t seen The Battle of Algiers, rent it now and watch.  It’s only superficially about Algeria and France.

Report this

By cann4ing, September 1, 2008 at 7:14 am Link to this comment

Nice tactic, there, Folktruther.  Without a scintilla of evidence, you made the outrageous statement that Barack Obama would engage in torture.  When you are called to the mat for your scurrilous attack, you attack those who would dare question the validity of your smear as engaging in “sleaze.”

The only difference between you and Karl Rove is that Rove chooses to reside on the extreme right of the political spectrum while you reside on the extreme left.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 31, 2008 at 11:02 pm Link to this comment

The kind of sleaze that Cyrena and cann4ing indulge in is the future of the Dem party. They have imported the sleaze from the Roach Limbargers of the right wing Gops and are using it against progressives, just as Gops use it against Dems.  They have to, because the Dem policies under Obama-Biden will continue the policies of the Bushites and are thus irrational and morally unjustiifiable.  Sleaze to silence dissent is all they have.

This was exempliefied by Huffington Post featureing on its main piece calling Nader a “total asshole.”  Nader is an honest liberal with a long record of reforms and thus an affront to current Dem leaders.

Obama-Biden will continue Bush’s policy of torture because they are going to continue his War on Terrorism.  Torture is essential to help terrorize and intimidate a population. That is why it doesn’t matter to the Bushites that perhaps half of the inmates at Gitmo have had nothing whatever to do with any kind of terrorism.  It doesn’t much matter WHO you torture so long as they are Muslims from rebellious populations.  A standard intelligence tactic is to torture them until they agree to spy for the US.

The pretense that they are being tortured to give information is absurd.  Rank and file military information is extremely time-dependant, and these people have been imprisoned, and tortured, for years.  Anything they knew, which couldn’t be much the way insurgent groups are organized, was long ago extracted.

But, it is argued,  Obamba, and probably Biden, say they are against torture, and they have given speeches, etc.  I’m sure they have. 

But what is said and what is done in politics are often two different things, especially at the present time in the US. 

Bush has stated often publically “we do not torture.”  The Dem house leaders are all publically against torture, while having met secretly with Bush and were briefed that the US tortures.  And agreed with it secretly, while opposing it publically.

Congress passed a bi-partisan bill that was overwhelming passed that eliminated torture.  And still torture is US state policy as it is Israel’s. 

If you are going to try to subjucate the Iraqi, Afganistan, Somolian people, you have to torture.  And that is what Obama-Biden are pledged to in the War on Terrorism.

So all the Dems have is sleaze to defend it, both in the US and Israel.  Do you think I’m a liar or a fool, as they characterized me?  They call names to intimidate, it’s all they have, it’s all they know. And this is increasing in the Dem party. 

Is this the kind of party you want to belong to?  Torture defended by sleaze?

Hedges just now has published a piece in Truthdig which exposes Obama’s approach on health care.  He calls for supporting McKinney or Nader.  I suggest McKinney because she is younger, blacker and a woman.  Voting will make an insignificant difference since both parties are firmly in control of the neocon ruling class. 

It is therefore necessary to think of the long term effect.  the near term effect of both parties is increased war abroad, class inequality at home, and an increasing police state.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 31, 2008 at 9:53 pm Link to this comment

The color black in a uniform is used as intimidation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Jux68F_AQ&eurl=http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message554515/pg1

This is what I am talking about. This has happened under Clinton, the saintly Democrat. GW, too. Obama or McCain will have the same crap going on, if not worse.

Report this

By cyrena, August 31, 2008 at 9:51 pm Link to this comment

1 of 2
Sen Barack Obama Reacts to US Bill Approving Torture
Human Rights Should Be Bigger than Politics
By Deborah White, About.com

Senator Barack Obama delivered this speech on the floor of the US Senate, in reaction to Senate passage of S. 3930, Military Commissions Act of 2006, which approved US torture of detainees and strips Constitutional rights away from detainees.
Senator Obama decries the placement of politics over human rights, and condemns S. 3930. He states, “This is not how a serious Administration would approach the problem of terrorism.”

STATEMENT ON THE MILITARY COMMISSION LEGISLATION
September 28, 2008
Remarks by Senator Barack Obama

“I may have only been in this body for a short while, but I am not naive to the political considerations that go along with many of the decisions we make here.

I realize that soon, we will adjourn for the fall, and the campaigning will begin in earnest. And there will be 30-second attack ads and negative mail pieces, and we will be criticized as caring more about the rights of terrorists than the protection of Americans. And I know that the vote before us was specifically designed and timed to add more fuel to that fire.

Human Rights Should Be Bigger Than Politics
And yet, while I know all of this, I’m still disappointed. Because what we’re doing here today - a debate over the fundamental human rights of the accused - should be bigger than politics. This is serious.

If this was a debate with obvious ideological differences - heartfelt convictions that couldn’t be settled by compromise - I would understand. But it’s not.

All of us - Democrats and Republicans - want to do whatever it takes to track down terrorists and bring them to justice as swiftly as possible. All of us want to give our President every tool necessary to do this. And all of us were willing to do that in this bill. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to the American people.

Unconstitutional

In the five years that the President’s system of military tribunals has existed, not one terrorist has been tried. Not one has been convicted. And in the end, the Supreme Court of the United found the whole thing unconstitutional, which is why we’re here today.

Report this

By cyrena, August 31, 2008 at 9:50 pm Link to this comment

2 of 2
We could have fixed all of this in a way that allows us to detain and interrogate and try suspected terrorists while still protecting the accidentally accused from spending their lives locked away in Guantanamo Bay. Easily. This was not an either-or question.

•  Instead of allowing this President - or any President - to decide what does and does not constitute torture, we could have left the definition up to our own laws and to the Geneva Conventions, as we would have if we passed the bill that the Armed Services committee originally offered.

•  Instead of detainees arriving at Guantanamo and facing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal that allows them no real chance to prove their innocence with evidence or a lawyer, we could have developed a real military system of justice that would sort out the suspected terrorists from the accidentally accused.

•  And instead of not just suspending, but eliminating, the right of habeas corpus - the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention, we could have given the accused one chance - one single chance - to ask the government why they are being held and what they are being charged with.

Politics Won Today
But politics won today. Politics won. The Administration got its vote, and now it will have its victory lap, and now they will be able to go out on the campaign trail and tell the American people that they were the ones who were tough on the terrorists.

•  And yet, we have a bill that gives the terrorist mastermind of 9/11 his day in court, but not the innocent people we may have accidentally rounded up and mistaken for terrorists - people who may stay in prison for the rest of their lives.

•  And yet, we have a report authored by sixteen of our own government’s intelligence agencies, a previous draft of which described, and I quote, “...actions by the United States government that were determined to have stoked the jihad movement, like the indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay…”

•  And yet, we have Al Qaeda and the Taliban regrouping in Afghanistan while we look the other way. We have a war in Iraq that our own government’s intelligence says is serving as Al Qaeda’s best recruitment tool. And we have recommendations from the bipartisan 9/11 commission that we still refuse to implement five years after the fact.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/ObamaTorture.htm

Report this

By Folktruther, August 31, 2008 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment

Dressed in black, Parcelsus?  Why black?

Report this

By cann4ing, August 31, 2008 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena:  Folktruther’s baseless statement that Obama would continue a policy of state torture simply underscores that he is an opinionated, irrational fool.  I do not wish to respond further to irrationality whether it comes from fools on the Right or fools on the left.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 31, 2008 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

You can watch the two Obama’s right here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9uAw1MnEi8

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 31, 2008 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment

@Folktruther

“While shotguns and canned goods are not necessarily a bad idea in the coming period, Paracelsus, keeping the door closed isn’t.”

I don’t know what I would do if a bunch of heavily armed men in black were to bang on my door.

Report this

By cyrena, August 31, 2008 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

Yep cann4ing…

And this is exactly the kind of stuff that makes us know how it’s all nothing but rhetoric to incite:

•  “So Obama-Biden will continue the American state policy of torture, as Isreal does, since it is not possible to attack a population without intimindating them through torture.” 

Folktruther, you’re BEYOND offensive. Not only has Obama been the ONLY candidate to consistently speak out against this torture, but he’s weighed in consistently on each and every one of these beyond believable violations of the most basic of international prohibitions.

He’s the ONLY one talking about non-proliferation and the elimination of ALL nuclear weapons. And he didn’t just START talking about these atrocities being perpetrated by the criminal cabal, he’s BEEN talking about it.

So, it’s like you go out of your way to make up these incredible lies. Why do you do it?

Tell us how you KNOW this Folkliar:

•  “Not only are they going to pursue the War on Terrorism against Muslims, they are already committed to the New Cold War against Russia, continuing to put a first strike missile defense in Poland and Checho.

They are already ‘committed’ to the New Cold War against Russia? Tell me how you know this. Tell us where you see Senator Obama’s name on any of the plans for this missile defense in Eastern Europe, It’s been in the works for years now, so tell us how you know this has been signed, sealed and delivered by Obama, knowing god damned full well that the thug regime of Cheney et al is now, and has been the most secretive in the history of this so-called republic.

Tell us how you KNOW that Obama will continue something that is now, and has always been recognized as the biggest farce in the history of the world, the so-called ‘war on terror”. It’s not a ‘war on terror’ it’s a war OF terror, planned and perpetrated by the same criminals that planned and perpetrated 9/11, in order to kick it off.

You don’t know anything folkliar. You’re like the so called ‘revolutionaries’ of the Boston Tea Party, (first act of terrorism) who disguised themselves as Native Americans to do their deed. (Oh how brave). Or like the KKK, who always had to hide under their sheets to do theirs. (very brave).

So you hide behind the internet to spew a lot of lies, and just keep recycling the same shit over and over, even though there’s never any substantiation for any of it. You don’t even attempt to offer an argument for any of this stuff, which would allow us to at least extend the benefit of the doubt. In other words, you could offer some quote, or some statement from Obama, and use your own ‘interpretation’ of it to make your claims like, “he’s going to continue the war on terrorism against Muslims.” But you know that it is SUCH a lie, that you aren’t even creative enough to come up with a bullshit interpretation.

How long do you think you can keep throwing shit out there, hoping that some of it will stick?

Report this

By cann4ing, August 31, 2008 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Maybe we can get Cheney and Palin to go duck hunting together; see which one comes back.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 31, 2008 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

While shotguns and canned goods are not necessarily a bad idea in the coming period, Paracelsus, keeping the door closed isn’t.  I am not concerned about making it, I am concerned about my children and grandchildren, and yours, making it.

This can only be done if we keep our doors open and unite with others in the same boat.  Shotguns are not much use against missiles, and eventually can openers break.  The only defense against oppressive power is other people, and a belief system to unite us.  This unity is not easily achieved, but it can be done.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 31, 2008 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

@Folktruther

“So a new strategy has to be developed to mobilize the population against their leaders.”

Buy shotguns and canned food. As long you don’t open the door, when the wolf comes a bangin’, you’ll stand a good chance of making it.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 31, 2008 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing: ’... In Folktruther’s retort we see precisely what to be expected from ideologues of the Left.  All complaints; no solutions….’

Leftists have all sorts of solutions.  You just don’t happen to like them, which is different from not having them.

But that’s all right.  I don’t think all that much of your (plural) solutions either.  You mentioned “grass-roots pressure” but I don’t see why, if Mr. O is elected after moving strongly and explicitly to the Right, he’s going to be particularly susceptible to leftist or “progressive” grass-roots pressure.  I mean, why would he be?  It wouldn’t make any sense.

We (the leftists, that is) must be doing something right, though, or the cops wouldn’t have raided all those people in St. Paul, and the mainstream media wouldn’t be suppressing the news.  If only we knew what it was.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 31, 2008 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Oh no, camm4ing, I don’t think Obama or Biden are pseudo-progressives.  They are Dem neocons, continuing the neocon policies of the Bushites, possibly more intelligently.  It appears that they are going to partially withdraw from Iraq under cover of increasing the bombing war against Afganistan and Pakistan, just as Nixon withdrew from Vietnam by bombing Cambodia and Laos, killing hundreds of thousands of people.  Secretly, since the mass media didn’t report the war to the American people.

Not only are they going to pursue the War on Terrorism against Muslims, they are already committed to the New Cold War against Russia, continuing to put a first strike missile defense in Poland and Checho.  And military action is still on the table against Iran, while Obama-Biden support apartheid Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians.

Even to the point of breaking precedent and eliminating an adress by Carter who, while a lousy president, has been an excellent ex-president, performing world services, including characterizing the Israeli apartheid regime.

So Obama-Biden will continue the American state policy of torture, as Isreal does, since it is not possible to attack a population without intimindating them through torture.  And of course Obama has already voted for lawless spying on the American population.  With the increase in class inequality, which he cannot do anything about while beholden to the finacial corporations, he must support the police state already largely installed by the Bushites.

No, Obama-Biden are not psuedo-Progressives, cann4ing.  You are.  Although you appear to genuinely want a change from the gangster Bushite regime, you are afraid to support the transformation necessary to acheive it.  The Bushites have been incompetent promoting general policy but they have been brilliant in gangsterizing the American bourgeois Democracy.  Rove has been a student of Orwell, on the other side, and has helped create a power system that can not be budged by elections.  If voting against it would do any good it would be made illegal.

So a new strategy has to be developed to mobilize the population against their leaders.  What this strategy will entail I don’t know, but an ideology is needed to unite the people to implement it.  You ae quite right that I am an ideologue, cann4ing. An ideologue of an ideology that has not yet been formulated.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 31, 2008 at 9:03 am Link to this comment

Thank you, Cyrena.  In Folktruther’s retort we see precisely what to be expected from ideologues of the Left.  All complaints; no solutions; no strategies for getting from point A to point B, and a remarkable inability to count.  And, of course, anything that Obama says or does to favor the middle class aspirations of the working class is to be discounted because Folktruther regards him as a “pseudo-progressive”—translation:  ideologically impure.

Report this

By Yuriy, August 31, 2008 at 8:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

>Tony Wicher

You said Americans didn’t sell Georgians weapon? Who can sell them M-16? Do you know, that Russian troops found American passport, when defeated one of the group of Georgian troops? Do you know haw many USA-citizens worked in Georgia? I think USA Government knew about bloody plan of Saakashvilli.
And Americans can make their choice between cold war and peace.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 31, 2008 at 7:34 am Link to this comment

@Cyrena

“...the midbrow politi[c]al junkies who dominate the progressive truth.”—Folktruther.

That means you Cyrena!

Report this

By Folktruther, August 31, 2008 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

America is currently being ruled by a gangster police state disguised by liberal institutions and liberal rhetoric.  The most effective of these disguises are the Dem pseudo-progressive neocons who mobilize the population to fighing the Gops while sanitizing the policies they implement.  The Dem neocons are complicit enablers of the Gop neocons, leading to ever increasing corruption and brutality historically.

In St. Paul, where the Gop convention is being held, cops broke into and arrested groups of people who were going to protest the Gop convention and take pictures of police brutality.  They were arrested, threatened and hassled BEFORE the convention, on the grounds that the militarized cops were enforcing the fire code.  This happened yesterday and there is of course no mention of it in the mainstream media.  Articles by Rob Kall at OPED and Greenwald at Salon has reported it.

What has not been reported by Dem pseudo-progressives is the cops that patrolled the DEM convention, intimidating and hassling peaceful protest which Obama and others were making their beautiful speeches promoting Freedom and Democracy.  Since the psuedo-progressive Dems made no protest about the miltarization of the Dem convention, it was assumed, correctly, that they would make no effective complaint about the Gop convention.

The Dems are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.  While the population is sucked into the meaningless stuggle over political offices and spoils of the Dems and Gops, the political consensus of the neocons continues to go to the right.  What Obama-Biden will do if and when elected is INCREASE war abroad and INCREASE a police state at home.  McCain may do it more so. 

This is inevitable while class inequality is so pronounced, with 10% of the population owning 85% of the US economy.  And increasing.  This class inequality can only be defended by a police state.  The Dem leaders recognize this as well as the Gop leaders, and are neutralizing the opposition of the population in their role of Good Cops.

What is most significant about the pseudo-progressive Dem neocons is what they DO NOT say.  They do not tell the simple truth about American power relations nor suggest effective strategies for coping with it. There solution is to vote for the Dems. 

Denms distract the population by politely arguing with the political drivel of the right which is more or less explicitly for imposing a police state. 

Just as the military and CIA and other right wing groups hire journalists, infiltrators and informers in the mainstream media nad mainstream progressive organs, so they may plant right wingers in the Internet media precisely for distraction purposes.  Or rightwing truthers may simply be wantobe’s hoping for a better gig in the American truth system.

Just as the 9/11-anthrax homicides through up new truthers that circumvented established Progressives who supported the offical Bushite story, under the guise of questioning it, so the population must give rise to a new generation of truths to circumvent the midbrow politial junkies who dominate the progressive truth.  This is an historical undertaking and must be done in the face of an increasing police state that pseudo-progressives will support under the guise of attacking it.

Report this

By cyrena, August 31, 2008 at 12:54 am Link to this comment

By cann4ing, August 30 at 3:49 pm

Ah Ernest, I adore you. I wanna be able to write like this when I grow up.

Among several comments of this excellent post, I noticed this one because I’ve only recently become aware of it myself.

•  “It was a faulty argument when made by Nader in 2000 to minimize the distinctions between Bush and Gore, and it completely falls flat after an eight year global nightmare aka the Bush/Cheney regime.”
I honestly didn’t pay any attention to Nader back in 2000, in part because I was already in the grip of the victimization by the Bush/Cheney regime. (I was still in Texas at the time, where their routine was already implemented). So, I hardly had time or the presence of mind to pay much heed to Nader, who didn’t have a presence at all in that political scene anyway. I only paid slightly more attention to him in 2004, but the same thing about any ‘awareness’ of the guy was just as relevant. He’s never even attempted to connect with the people – ALL of the people.

But I said that to say that he’s doing this same thing this time around, in trying to minimize the distinctions between Obama and McCain, in order to make them both ‘different’ from him. This is an incredibly stupid strategic blunder, because it insults any member of the population who has come to know a whole lot more about both Obama and McCain, then they do about Nader, (despite how long he’s been around, or the success of his past contributions). He was annoying even in that debate with Scheer, because of his determination to stand by the claim that there was no difference between the democrats and republicans, and one need not be a political junkie or genius to know better than that, and therefore be highly offended by it.

And this says it again, which is the reality of what we’ve been saying all along..

•  “We progressives may not see eye-to-eye with Obama on every issue, but one thing is damned certain—there is a far greater prospect for grass root pressure to bare fruit in an Obama administration than in an insane McCain administration! “

Nope, we don’t see eye-to-eye with him on every issue, but the thing is, (as you’ve already said) he doesn’t expect us to, because he’s not planning a dictatorship, or even promising to have all of the answers. He even went as far as saying that part of his reason for selecting Biden was because he wanted somebody to challenge his thinking. Now I don’t know that Biden was the best person to do that. He shoulda picked me if he wanted that;) (just kidding). But still..you get my point.

•  “Ideology blinds its adherents from a reality that change will not be instantaneous and that the shape of that change will be the product of democratic pressures over an extended period. …The time has come for the American Left to gain a little political maturity along with the ability to count.”
Amen to this!! Political maturity on top of overall maturity. The whining I keep hearing makes me wonder about the memory thing. They’ve been watching their house burn down around them for 8 years, and haven’t done a whole lot to put the fire out themselves. Now the fire crew finally gets close enough to maybe help them put the thing out, and all they can do is throw rocks at him.

I once observed this same thing about a former in-law. She constantly whined about people allegedly ‘abandoning’ her. I told her it wasn’t that folks were ‘abandoning her’ it was that *she* was RUNNING THEM OFF!

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Barack O’Bilderberg

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20080609&articleId=9270

A Background to Bilderberg

Sunday, June 8, 2008, marked the last day of this year’s annual Bilderberg meeting, which took place in Chantilly, Virginia. The American Friends of Bilderberg, an American Bilderberg front group, which organizes the American participant list for the annual Bilderberg conference, issued a rare press release this year. It stated that, “The Conference will deal mainly with a nuclear free world, cyber terrorism, Africa, Russia, finance, protectionism, US-EU relations, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Islam and Iran. Approximately 140 participants will attend.“1

Bilderberg, which has been meeting annually since 1954, is a highly secretive international think tank and some say, policy-forming group made up of representatives from North America and Western Europe and was founded by Joseph Retinger, Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands and Belgian Prime Minister Paul Van Zeeland. The Bilderberg Steering Committee, made up of around 30 people, (with no official list available), “decided that it would invite 100 of the most powerful people in Europe and North America every year to meet behind closed doors at a different five-star resort. The group stresses secrecy: What’s said at a Bilderberg conference stays at a Bilderberg conference.“2

Usually, the Bilderberg Conference is held in Europe for three years in a row, with the fourth year holding a meeting in North America. However, the previous North American conference was held in 2006 in Ottawa. So why did they break tradition to hold the conference in North America this year? Speculation abounds around a discussion of a possible attack on Iran, the American-centered global financial crisis, as well as the current US Presidential elections.


First Meeting of the Bilderberg in 1954


Bilderberg has long been an important forum for up-and-coming politicians of Western nations to be introduced to the global financial elite; the heads of the major multinational corporations, international banks, world financial institutions, global governing bodies, think tanks, and powerful individuals of the likes of David Rockefeller and various European monarchs, including Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, daughter of founding member, Prince Bernhard, as well as Queen Sofia and King Juan Carlos of Spain.

According to The Globe and Mail, such Canadian Prime Ministers have, in the past, (often before becoming Prime Minister), attended a Bilderberg Conference as a guest, including Pierre Trudeau, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper.3 Tony Blair attended Bilderberg before becoming Prime Minister,4 as did the current British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who also recently called for the establishment of a “new world order.“5

Interestingly, as the Washington Post reported, Vernon E. Jordon, a high-powered American executive, who sits on several corporate boards, including American Express, Xerox, J.C. Penney, Dow Jones, and Sara Lee, to name a few, also happens to be a very close friend of former President Bill Clinton. However, “it was Jordan who first introduced then-Gov. Clinton to world leaders at their annual Bilderberg gathering in Germany in 1991. Plenty of governors try to make that scene; only Clinton got taken seriously at that meeting, because Vernon Jordan said he was okay.“6 Clinton subsequently became President.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

Barack and Bilderberg

Recently, there has been much discussion about Barack Obama having possibly attended the recent Bilderberg conference in Virginia. This speculation arose when Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton sneaked off for a secretive meeting while in Virginia. As the AP reported, “Reporters traveling with Obama sensed something might be happening between the pair when they arrived at Dulles International Airport after an event in Northern Virginia and Obama was not aboard the airplane. Asked at the time about the Illinois senator’s whereabouts, [Obama spokesman Robert] Gibbs smiled and declined to comment.“7

The press that had been traveling with Obama were not made aware of the secretive meeting until the plane that they assumed Obama would be present on was moving down the runway, prompting many angry questions from the press towards Obama’s spokesman, Robert Gibbs. One reported asked Gibbs, “Why were we not told about this meeting until we were on the plane, the doors were shut and the plane was about to taxi to take off?” to which he responded, “Senator Obama had a desire to do some meetings, others had a desire to meet with him tonight in a private way and that is what we are doing.” This preceded another question, “Is there more than one meeting, is there more than one person with whom he is meeting?” Gibbs simply replied, “I am not going to get into all the details of the meeting.” He again later repeated that, “There was a desire to do some meetings tonight, he was interested in doing them, others were interested in doing them, and to do them in a way that was private.“8

On Friday, June 6, it was reported that Bilderberg tracker, Jim Tucker, “called Obama’s office today to ask if he had attended Bilderberg. A campaign spokeswoman refused to discuss the matter but would not deny that Obama had attended Bilderberg.“9

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

Bilderberg to Pick Obama’s Vice President

As the Financial Times reported in May of this year, Barack Obama appointed James A. Johnson, the former CEO of Fannie Mae, “to head a secret committee to produce a shortlist for his vice-presidential running mate.” A short list was discussed by the article, which listed, other than Hillary Clinton, “Jim Webb, the former secretary of the navy, Vietnam veteran and senator for Virginia; Tim Kaine, the governor of Virginia; John Edwards, the former vice-presidential candidate in 2004; Ted Strickland, the governor of Ohio; and Kathleen Sebelius, the governor of Kansas.” Other potential nominees include “Sam Nunn, the former chairman of the Senate armed services committee; and Wesley Clark, the former head of Nato in Europe.“10

James A. Johnson, the man Obama asked to pick his running mate, played the same role for John Kerry back in 2004, and he selected John Edwards. As the New York Times reported, “Several people pointed to the secretive and exclusive Bilderberg conference of some 120 people that this year drew the likes of Henry A. Kissinger, Melinda Gates and Richard A. Perle to Stresa, Italy, in early June, as helping [Edwards] win Mr. Kerry’s heart. Mr. Edwards spoke so well in a debate on American politics with the Republican Ralph Reed that participants broke Bilderberg rules to clap before the end of the session.” The Times further reported, “His performance at Bilderberg was important,’’ said a friend of Mr. Kerry who was there. ‘‘He reported back directly to Kerry. There were other reports on his performance. Whether they reported directly or indirectly, I have no doubt the word got back to Mr. Kerry about how well he did.“11

James A. Johnson, Vice Chairman of Perseus, a merchant banking firm, is also a director of Goldman Sachs, Forestar Real Estate Group, Inc., KB Home, Target Corporation and UnitedHealth Group Inc., is also a member of the American Friends of Bilderberg, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission and is an honorary trustee of the Brookings Institution.12 It is likely that Obama’s running mate will be chosen by Johnson at this years Bilderberg Conference.

Notable among this year’s Bilderberg guests are Kansas Governor, Kathleen Sebelius, who the Financial Times reported was on Johnson’s short list of nominees. In fact, Sebelius is the only person mentioned as a possible running mate in the Financial Times article that was officially listed on the Bilderberg list of attendees.13 Could this be a sign that she may be the chosen one? Time will tell. However, another Democratic politician present at the meeting was Tom Daschle, so perhaps he is working his way back into politics.

Don’t Forget McCain

Just because Obama’s popularity dwarfs that of McCain’s, is not reason enough to ignore the other candidate. After all, the elite never ignore both candidates, and in fact, ensure they have them both neatly packed in their back pockets. Among the guests at the Bilderberg meeting this year, included Republican Governor of South Carolina, Mark Sanford, as well as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,14 which would be a smart political pick for McCain, going up against the first black presidential candidate.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

McCain has also received endorsements from former Secretaries of State, Henry Kissinger, General Alexander Haig, Lawrence Eagleburger and George P. Shultz.15 These are not men without influence, as Henry Kissinger and George Shultz were also present at this years meeting.16 Also interesting to note is that George P. Shultz “associated himself with the Bush presidency early on, introducing the Texas governor to Condoleezza Rice at the Hoover Institution in 1998.” Could Condi be in the process of being groomed for higher office, or is she simply at the meeting for foreign policy discussions?

Also important to note, is that McCain had a fundraiser in London held for him, which was hosted “by kind permission of Lord Rothschild OM GBE [Order of Merit and the Knight Grand Cross of the British Empire] and the Hon Nathaniel Rothschild.” As the Washington Post reported, “Tickets to the invitation-only event cost $1,000 to $2,300.“18 The Post later reported, “Aides refused to talk about the fundraiser, or to say how much money was raised, and McCain dashed through the rain away from reporters after emerging. One guest said there were about 100 people at the luncheon. If they all gave the maximum, the event would have raised about $230,000 for the campaign.“19

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 30, 2008 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing: ‘Ideological purists on the Left are as problematic as ideological purists on the Right.  Because Barack Obama does not share their every desire—e.g., an immediate dismantling of Empire and the military industrial complex, nationalized health care, etc., there is therefore no difference between Obama and a senile old man who etc. etc. etc. ...’

I don’t know a single person who thinks there is no difference between Obama and McCain.  No doubt there are some poor, confused souls out there who may not be able to tell the difference, but most of the lefties I hear from or read about can tell the difference.  That isn’t the issue, the problem.  If you want a more detailed critique, try this:
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=697

I would not say it’s a settled matter, either, among lefties as to whether to vote for, give money to, or otherwise support Obama or someone else.  Most of us are a little bit taken aback by the Electric Kool-Aid phenomenon, regardless.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

Does anybody care about Obama’s possible Bilderberg connections?

http://americanrelay.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/our-new-master-bilderberg-obama/

Reporters were duped into believing that they were getting on a plane back to the campaign headquarters in Chicago with the presumptive nominee, while in reality Obama’s motorcade instead sped off in secrecy to Northern Virginia.

http://rawstory.com/rawreplay/?p=1210

(the video)

The traveling press pool spent at least five minutes grilling Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs about the meeting, and the campaign’s unwillingness to send at least a reporter or two along with Sen. Obama.

Now the presumptive Democratic nominee, custom dictates that Obama should be treated the same way as the president — never being without at least a few pool reporters traveling with him.

“If the president goes bike riding, we go with him. If he goes out to dinner or goes to visit a friend three blocks up the road, we go with him in the motorcade,” one reporter told Gibbs. “That’s the expectation in a general election, and that’s the way it’s been with previous candidates.”

————-

So the question is…… where did Obama and Hillary go? Did they go on a date?

According to news reports, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton went out of their way to hold their long-awaited private meeting in a very specific location - not at Hillary’s mansion in Washington - but in Northern Virginia, which also just happens to be the scene of the 2008 Bilderberg meeting.

“Reporters traveling with Obama sensed something might be happening between the pair when they arrived at Dulles International Airport after an event in Northern Virginia and Obama was not aboard the airplane,” reports the Associated Press.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g-qGLDs-gAnZiUXD2NU51ry3j3dwD914B1O00

Dulles just happens to be walking distance from the Westfields Marriott hotel in Chantilly where Henry Kissinger, David Rockefeller and the rest of the Bilderberg globalists are convening.

The neo-liberal website Wonkette, which had previously ridiculed “conspiracy theorists” for ascribing power to Bilderberg, seemed to take a somewhat different tone when it made the connection between Obama and Hillary’s meeting and the Bilderberg Group.

Not one U.S. corporate media outlet has made the connection between the location of the Bilderberg Group conference this year and Obama and Hillary’s decision to venture out to Chantilly for their confidential “tet a tet”.

Not one U.S. corporate media outlet has yet uttered one word about 125 of the world’s most influential power brokers meeting behind closed doors to discuss the future of the planet on U.S. soil - while being met by the probable future President of the United States.

Hillary and Obama’s attendance of the 2008 Bilderberg meeting, and the complete failure of the mainstream media to report on the fact, once again betrays the super-secretive nature and influential reputation that the 54-year-old organization still maintains.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 30, 2008 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie:  I think you have strayed substantially from my original post which you criticized.  I never said that the American polity is fascist.  I said that we have fascists inside our government—Bush/Cheney/the Federalist Society Jurists on the Supreme Court.

When Hitler first entered the German government, he did not have total control.  He was Reich Chancellor, but Hindenberg was President and the other ministries of government were filled with non-Nazi conservatives.  It took the Reichstag fire and ensuing decrees, culminating in the Enabling Act which ceded all legislative power to Hitler before total control was achieved and the democracy once known as the Weimar Republic came to an abrupt end.

Are you going to tell me that Hitler was never a Nazi until he achieved total control?  Are you going to suggest that until Franco defeated the Republican forces in Spain, Franco was not a fascist because he had not secured total control.

You have confused the substance of the individual with the system they seek to overturn.

Paul Krugman aptly described the hard right movement that installed Bush/Cheney as “revolutionary.”

“When one is dealing with ordinary political movements, it makes sense to presume that their policy proposals, right or wrong, are made in good faith.  But when one is dealing with a revolutionary movement that does not accept the legitimacy of the existing system, there’s no reason to make that assumption.  Revolutionary movements, which aren’t concerned about the rules of the game, have no compunction about misrepresenting their goals.”

That is the essence of the Bush/Cheney regime and their concept of a Unitary Executive.  They do not accept the legitimacy of the constitutional government they were selected to lead.  That is why they proclaim the right to pick and choose the laws they will or will not enforce; pick and choose what they will reveal to Congress; what they will hide.  Their vision is not that the President is “above” the law but that the President “is” the law.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 30, 2008 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

Ideological purists on the Left are as problematic as ideological purists on the Right.  Because Barack Obama does not share their every desire—e.g., an immediate dismantling of Empire and the military industrial complex, nationalized health care, etc., there is therefore no difference between Obama and a senile old man who thinks that war is the answer to every national problem and whose election would provide the final push into an economic abyss and a totalitarian society from which we may never recover or escape.

It was a faulty argument when made by Nader in 2000 to minimize the distinctions between Bush and Gore, and it completely falls flat after an eight year global nightmare aka the Bush/Cheney regime.

Is Obama the answer to all our problems?  He would tell you himself that he is not.  Indeed, that was the point about change coming from the bottom up and his not all that new observation that only democratic pressure from each of us can bring meaningful change. 

Senator Obama was not my first choice.  I would have preferred Dennis Kucinich.  But at this stage in our nation’s history, for progressives, Senator Obama is the “only” rational choice—so long as we don’t stop there; don’t expect an Obama election to be the ultimate remedy; keep working to replace corporate Dems in Congress with true progressives; continue to push for single-payer in lieu of the scam of “universal coverage.” 

We progressives may not see eye-to-eye with Obama on every issue, but one thing is damned certain—there is a far greater prospect for grass root pressure to bare fruit in an Obama administration than in an insane McCain administration!

Ideology blinds its adherents from a reality that change will not be instantaneous and that the shape of that change will be the product of democratic pressures over an extended period.

The time has come for the American Left to gain a little political maturity along with the ability to count.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 30, 2008 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

I mean of course, Cyrena, the mobilization of the population for POLICIES, not for Dem efforts to get elected to the spoils of office.  The Dems are a fake opposition, like those pseudo-progressive punching bags used by radio and TV neocons to illustrte how much stronger they are then their feeble opposition.

But Anaarcissie is right, the midbrow political junkies who promote Dem policies have been oriented to the Dem-Gop dimension of political discourse, rather than the people-power dimension, that probably they will be the last to switch over, since they identify with professional class interests.

That is why the Roach Limbarger school of political discourse is becoming institutionalized in Dem neocon debate.  If you don’t have the facts or reason on your side, you can only pound on the table.

King was mobilizing the people AGAINST the Dem war, Cyrena, just as he mobilize civil rights
AGAINST the Southern Dems who were the racists fighting them.  Although rank and file Dems joined him after a bit, he was assassinated during a Dem administration because of fears he would unite the two movements.

It is quite true that Obama began with Alinsky type mobilizing but quickly joined the Dem establishment who espouse war abroad and a police state at home.  While the Dems were giving the usual pap inside the Convention, police in full riot gear were beating and intimindating progressives outside of it.  With Dem leader silence and concent, including Obama’s.

Report this

By cyrena, August 30, 2008 at 11:33 am Link to this comment

Obama clear: He’s pro-union
May 15, 2007

BY LYNN SWEET Sun-Times Columnist
TRENTON, N.J.—He won’t shop at Wal-Mart. He is for a law making it easier for people to join unions. If president, his appointees would be “sympathetic” to labor. He said he walked picket lines while a state senator.

It’s “been a long time since we had a president who said unions are a good thing,” said White House hopeful Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) at an AFL-CIO presidential forum, a stop in a day with three New Jersey fund-raisers and endorsements from two New Jersey mayors.

After previous lackluster appearances before union groups, on Monday, Obama made a clear and specific appeal to labor. Giving a nod to workers trying to organize at Atlantic City casinos, Obama said, “We need to stand with them and help them organize.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/385406,CST-NWS-sweet15.article

Obama applauds unions at convention
‘I see those yellow T-shirts’
April 25, 2008

BY ABDON M. PALLASCH Political Reporter/apallasch@suntimes.com
It was supposed to be his day off, but with a union convention in town and the close Indiana primary less than two weeks away, White House hopeful Barack Obama thanked 200 members of the United Food and Commercial Workers for their help on his campaign Thursday.
“No matter where [the campaign] has taken me, you’ve been right by my side,” Obama told the members in their yellow “UFCW for Obama” T-Shirts. “I know that because I see those yellow T-shirts at every town hall meeting.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/915251,CST-NWS-union25.article

A: Hillary Clinton fights Obama, unions, labor & US jobs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sigkAd3SxxI

Obama to Wear Union-Made Suit for Speech Tonight

Last update: 4:41 p.m. EDT Aug. 28, 2008
DENVER, Aug 28, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/—Tonight, when he delivers his speech at INVESCO Field in Denver, Barack Obama will be wearing a suit made by UNITE HERE members from the Hart Schaffner Marx plant in Des Plaines, Illinois. Five hundred workers, including cutters, sewers, and distribution workers, work at the plant in suburban Chicago. Since 1910, workers at the plant have been members of UNITE HERE and its predecessor unions.

Report this

By cyrena, August 30, 2008 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, August 30 at 9:09 am

•  “Has Obama ever championed the right of progressives to organize and peacefully assemble?  No.  No, cann4ing, the answer is no. The Dem party is AGAISNT the mobilization of the people, just as they coopted and destroyed the peace movement.”

Folktruther, this is one of many blatant falsehoods that you been known to posit here, via the standard innuendo of proving a negative. You say has he ever ‘championed the right’. Has he ever DENIED it would be more appropriate, and you would know that to be false. This is the same as saying that because one cannot site a specific action or event, or speech, or writing, where he (or anybody for that matter) states that they are in fact in favor of all of these things, (all of which happen to be constitutional rights by the way) then they must be against them.

This is a very deceptive practice, (inflammatory rhetoric with no foundation in reality or precedent) and when you engage in it routinely, people figure it out easily enough. You cannot say that the Dem party, is against the mobilization of the people, when history and the reality of the day tells us the exact opposite.

Are you even trying to suggest that Dr. King was AGAINST the mobilization of the people? Are you even trying to suggest that Obama’s community organization on the South Side of Chicago was anything BUT the mobilization of the people?

Do you think that Barack Obama was just able to secure the Democratic nomination for POTUS WITHOUT mobilizing the people?

And do you really think that THIS many of us are stupid enough to believe your rhetoric over what our own eyes and ears convey to us?

I think you get carried away by your own bullshit folktruther.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 30, 2008 at 10:51 am Link to this comment

What is going on in the US since The 2000 Coup and the 911-antrax false flag homicides IS NEW, Anarcissie.  It is a new kind of police state, whatever it is called.  It’s function is to DESTROY the coordinating social function of the state, leaving only its violent repessive function.  And that violence outsourced as much as possible to Free Enterprise.

The notion that this proto-fascism will be accompanied by increased welfare payments is absurd, right wing drivel.  The neocons are eliminating welfare precisely to de-powerize the population, making the poor working longer and harder for less and less.

Even mainstream Dems recognize this.  Al Gore in THE ASSAULT ON REASON states, p. 64: 

“They [the Gop neocons]are deeply concerned, for example, that governement programs to provide health care, housing, social insurance, and other financial support will adversely affect work incentivies.  They also oppose the forty hour work week, job safety laws, consumer protection,  [etc,etc].

If people are given a decent income to live, and are not driven down by the drugery of typical work, it would undermine the class-based state.  They would have time, energy and interest to enter into the power process and become citizens for the first time in history.

The entire function of this neocon irrationality and oppression is to prevent this, as Orwell dramatized in 1984.

What people don’t realize, because liberal economists don’t tell them, is that growth in the economy can be taken as less hours of work as an alterntaive to increased consumption. It has been done to a greater extent in the welfare captialism of Europe.  But the neocons of both parties must prevent this if they are to maintain their power to rule over historical time. 

So the US is INCREASING the work time of the working population as part of its policy of incrreasing class inequality.  And Clinton, in combination with the Gop Congress, destroyed welfare while he helped gut the unions, and institute the increased prison slavery now being used to increase profits.

Report this

By JoJo, August 30, 2008 at 10:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This is no advertisement for a book—click to the right of site intro—The Rise of the Fourth Reich (in U.S.of Israel)
  Just read the prelude to the book—America has a serious problem,however the author is wrong to say—in the pass 60 years this problem arose. I suggest the author read Henry Ford’s book about Judism in 1920 about America’s problems then. His whole text is on line free.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 30, 2008 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

But this gangster fascism, cann4ing, could not be imposed without the Dem leaders’ complicit enabling of it.  If the Dem party, or even the “Dem wing” mobilized millions of people to oppose the police repression and infiltration of progressive movments, it would reduce them to the point of elimintion.

But the Dem leaders silently SUPPORT the brutalizing of the left, because real progressive truth interferes with the policies they must champion in order to be funded and media’d by the neocon ruling class. 

Has Obama ever championed the right of progressives to organize and peacefully assemble?  No.  No, cann4ing, the answer is no. The Dem party is AGAISNT the mobilization of the people, just as they coopted and destroyed the peace movement.

As Greenwald stated in his last piece, Obama did not even allude in his presidental address that during the last eight years a police state has been imposed on us.  He did not allude to the vast corruption and brutlity that has been imposed by the neocons.  Because he is going to continue it.  That is why he voted for lawless spying by the American power system on the American population.

The US and Israel are the only modern powers where murder and torture are state policies.  The police have been militarized with SWAT teams and now routinely prevent peaceful dissent, including cops in full riot gear outside the Dem convention.  In order to protect Freedom and Democracy it is necessary to destroy it.

What is most important about Obana’s, and Kucinich’s speeches, is what they DIDN’T SAY.  The didn’t say the law and mass media have been perverted by money power.  The historical function of Kucinich is to get left Dems to vote for Obama, and the historical function of Obama is to unite the American people to support increased war abroad and increased class inequality at home, requiring a disguised police state to repress protests to it.

Obaama-Biden are not part of the solution: they are part of the problem.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 30, 2008 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Folktruther: ‘I think you are wrong, Anarcissie, that we wouldn’t be having this public converse if the fascists were in power.  The US appears to have developed a new form of despotism where elements of the ruling class want to DESTROY the coordinating and welfare function of the state. ...


It’s not really fascist, then, is it?  Remember, fascism is a total system.  You can’t really do the quasi-military stuff without the concomitant welfarism; otherwise, there are too many people hanging loose; God knows what they may get up to.  Welfare is a way of quiescing and controlling people.  So here is where accuracy of analysis comes in: when the real fascists show up, we know they will talk a lot of Welfare.

At the same time they will shut down stuff like we are doing now, on this web site.  In a totalitarian state, as in a barracks, you can’t have people mouthing off.

Granted, things are moving that way.

What’s going on in the U.S. is not new; it is a descent into the politics of much of the Third World in years gone by.  That is one of the prices of empire: not only do you become like those you fight against, you also become like those you rule.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 30, 2008 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

You’ve just now picked up on the storm trooper suppression of free speech, Anarcissie?  Where were you during the 2004 DNC in Boston when demonstrators were shunted off to a barbed wire enclosed “protest pit” that people on the left named after Guantanamo’s “Camp X-Ray?”  Where were you during the 2004 RNC when police using construction netting swept people from the streets like schools of fish?

Report this

By cann4ing, August 30, 2008 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, August 30 at 7:43 am #

“I think you are wrong, Anarcissie, that we wouldn’t be having this public converse if the fascists were in power.”

Agreed.  One does not wait until total control is achieved to recognize someone like Dick Cheney as a fascist.  Anarcissie confuses the character of the fascist mind with the results achieved.  Anarcissie also overlooks the fact that a total silencing of the opposition is not necessary where 95% of what Americans see, hear and read comes from a dwindling number of giant media conglomerates.

James Madison’s prescient observation that “knowledge will forever govern ignorance” was given voice in the symbol chosen by Admiral John Poindexter for his Total Information Awareness Program—a pyramid topped by an all-seeing eye, beneath which appeared the words, Scientia Est Potentia:  Latin for “knowledge is power.”
 
It is a symbol that is perhaps best understood by thinking of J.R. Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings” with Dick Cheney playing the role of Lord Sauron. 

While intrusive surveillance ordinarily raises Fourth Amendment concerns entailing issues of privacy rather than First Amendment media concerns, secrecy and surveillance have a direct bearing on the directional flow of information which underscores a little understood but fundamental truth about media.  If knowledge is power then it follows that anyone in a position to regulate the flow of knowledge possesses tremendous power over those with a need to know, which, for effective democracy, means all of us. 

Anarcissie’s fundamental error is to believe that the word “fascism” applies only to Mussolini’s Italy and Franco’s Spain.  He fails to comprehend that America has produced its own fascists, then and now.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 30, 2008 at 9:13 am Link to this comment

Speaking of fascism, I may have to revise my opinion.  There’s some mighty interesting stuff going on out in St. Paul even as we speak.  See
http://twincities.indymedia.org/
for a start.  I think they have links to most of the stories.  Or search Google News for “st paul police raid convergence center”.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 30, 2008 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

As someone who supported Dennis Kucinich until he dropped out of the race, I was not the least bit surprised by the content and delivery of his convention speech.  But consider: “The Hill newspaper has revealed the Obama campaign removed one line from Congress member Dennis Kucinich’s fiery speech before the convention earlier this week. Kucinich’s wide-ranging address criticized war profiteering, the oil giants, Wall Street, pharmaceutical companies and, most of all, the Bush administration, which he said invaded Iraq for oil. But Obama staffers redacted one line suggesting Republicans should be jailed. The line read, ‘They’re asking for another four years—in a just world, they’d get ten to twenty.’”

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/28/headlines#5

While our core concern has to be the defeat of John McCAin, we don’t have to wait until Congress is back in session to push for meaningful change.  Cindy Sheehan is running against Nancy “the-Constitution-is-off-the-table” Pelosi as an independent.  Think of the message that would be sent if SF voters were enlightened and voted to rid us of this gutless wonder.

Report this

By Paracelsus, August 30, 2008 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

@Tony Wicher

Mmmm, very rousing speech by Kucinich. I still feel like writing in Krusty the Clown for Prez. We have Brain Chip Biden, and Obama the Change guy. Both of these guys are puppets. Oh well.

Report this

By george archers, August 30, 2008 at 8:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

http://www.rense.com/general83/natoh.htm
Russia is about to declare war on USA, NATO
Just for a oil pipeline.After WWIII,history will blame the Russians just as they do now the Germans

Report this

By Folktruther, August 30, 2008 at 8:43 am Link to this comment

I think you are wrong, Anarcissie, that we wouldn’t be having this public converse if the fascists were in power.  The US appears to have developed a new form of despotism where elements of the ruling class want to DESTROY the coordinating and welfare function of the state.

As long as this despotism is covered by the powerless institutions of Freedom and Democracy, the mainstream truth will still be dominated by pseudo progressives like the Scheer and the truthdiggers, while a few harmless outlets, like this one,  are kept available for dissidents.

The US has never relied on completely stamping out the simple truth, but on marginalizing and keeping it as a token to point to and, especially, to respond to.  This is necessary because of the hackned truth produced by the mainstream truthers. Cooption is the American way as well as the tradtional American brutality.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, August 30, 2008 at 8:32 am Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, August 30 at 7:17 am #

Thanks for sharing that TW.  Kucinich rocks!

I believe he would have complemented Obama much better than Biden.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 30, 2008 at 8:17 am Link to this comment

Following is a communication I just received from the Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) Impeachment Group

Dear Progressives ,

The other day I forwarded to you below the ACTION REQUEST from Dennis Kucinich and also in a separate email I sent an “Urgent Appeal for Your Help to Publish Ads for Impeachment in the Washington Post !!!!”

Time is of the essence and we need your cooperation and support NOW !!!
DEADLINE SEPTEMBER 2ND

Congressman Dennis Kucinich’s speech Tuesday night at the Democratic National Convention - “Wake Up America” - had the delegates on their feet, roaring with approval. Even the usually dismissive media correspondents and commentators couldn’t avoid taking grudging notice of the man they work so hard to ignore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp9cWOcZ7g or on cspan.org   http://www.c-spanarchives.org/flash/player_embed.php?pid=280557-1&start=5533&stop=5897&noautoplay=1&width=300&height=275

We can’t afford to wait till November, so I shout out to each of you “Wake Up America” !!!!!!!!!!!

Groups from across the country are joining in supporting Dennis during the month of September and we are looking for the support of all Americans who wish to stop the march to fascism.

Bush can do horrendous damage in the next 5 months….don’t kid yourself into thinking it soon will be over !!!! Now more than ever it is important we take a stand. Watch this clip from the hearings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gFW_9ZBp8&feature=related

Conyers has called back staff of the Judiciary Committee to investigate Ron Suskind’s revelations that the Bush administration forged “evidence” of the WMDs in Iraq. But the Judiciary committee cannot enforce subpoenas as long as Bush can reassure witnesses that he will pardon them. Introduce the possibility that the President can be impeached and his promises of pardons suddenly become worthless. As long as Nancy Pelosi continues to block impeachment, John Conyers and his committee are impotent.

We need to put pressure onto all members of Congress especially the Judiciary and Pelosi.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, August 30, 2008 at 7:55 am Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, August 30 at 5:39 am #

Thank god for the second amendment, it keeps the fascists at bay.  They must move ever so slowly.

This last gasp meddling in Georgia’s affairs at the expense of pissing off Russia remind me of the dying of the light.  This lame duck administration and congress knows the people are going to make a few changes come Nov 4 and once Bush is in no position to issue pardons, heads will roll.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 30, 2008 at 7:09 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher: ‘I’m OK with saying that we don’t have fascism yet but we are drifting in that direction. In that case, this election looks to me like the last, last chance to avoid going over the edge. Which is why, whatever our differences with Barack Obama, we must all unite behind him at this time. Obviously.’

I think the mainspring of the drift toward fascism is the militarism and imperialism which has been the settled policy of the American ruling class since the 1940s.  Many proto-fascistic tendencies flow from this, like the erosion of Constitutional rights, the debasement of the currency, the prevalence of surveillance and police culture.

Where does Obama stand on this?  In spite of appearing to be the peace candidate for a while, he goes along with it.  He didn’t like the war in Iraq because of its stupidity, but imperial wars elsewhere are all right.  He voted for the abominable FISA (after stating that he would filibuster it).  He swore fealty to AIPAC.  He appointed the Drug and Cold Warrior Biden his running mate—Biden, who as I recall was a big fan of the adventure in Iraq.  Obama is smart and articulate, but he seems very cautious and conservative in matters of action and policy, very much a man of the middle of the established order.  So how is he going to be the savior, the man on a white horse, the good king at last?  How is any one person going to play that role?

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 30, 2008 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie: ‘If you keep flogging the word fascist around, you won’t have anything to call the real fascists when they show up.’

Tony Wicher: ‘They have shown up, but I guess you spent so much of the last eight years splitting hairs that you didn’t notice.’

If the real fascists had shown up, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, at least not in public.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 10:09 pm Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, August 29 at 7:24 pm #


Folktruther—The term kleptocracy has been suggested for the kind of government you describe.

Some years ago, when I was ranting as usual about the bourgeoisie, a friend interrupted me and said there was no longer any bourgeoisie—there were powerful and rich people, but instead of taking care of business and keeping things going, the dominant types were just looting the system.  I don’t know; while obviously there is some sort of ruling class, it’s hard to say whether it’s doing anything coherent.  It’s not running a fascist state, but as it destroys the country’s Constitution, economy and political culture, it certainly makes the advent of a fascist regime more possible.  And the public drifts along.
——————————————————————————
Anarcissie,

I’m OK with saying that we don’t have fascism yet but we are drifting in that direction. In that case, this election looks to me like the last, last chance to avoid going over the edge. Which is why, whatever our differences with Barack Obama, we must all unite behind him at this time. Obviously.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther—While I know that it seems as if the mob took over the WH these past eight years, I am mystified as to why you can’t accept VP Wallace’s definition of the American fascist at a time when the U.S. was locked into mortal combat with fascism in Europe.  George W. is a third generation of the people Wallace was referring to back in 1945.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 29, 2008 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

The problem with the term “kleptocracy”, Anarcissie, is that it implies theft.  The Bushites are not simply stealing, they are robbing, like gangsters.  They believe in it.  They not only steal continously they murder regularly.  Something more like ‘mobocracy’ or Mafiocracy.  They are not only currupt, they are brutal.  It is why the US is relapsing so rapidly into technological barbarism.

Narcissism has nothing to do with reason.  Why do you choose to be a sissy?  What is a sissy?

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Hey, if you don’t want to call them fascists you can call them something else. “Gang of thugs” is good enough for me. OK?

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment

Bravo, Tony!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, August 29 at 6:53 pm #

If you keep flogging the word fascist around, you won’t have anything to call the real fascists when they show up.
—————————————————————————-
They have shown up, but I guess you spent so much of the last eight years splitting hairs that you didn’t notice.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 29, 2008 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

cann4ing: ... Oh, so your a big fan in accuracy, are you Anarcissie?  Or is it what-a-sissy? ...

I am an anarchist, a narcissist, and a sissy, and proud of all three, the product of virtue, reason and conscious choice.

If you think I am a fan of Bush and Cheney, you probably need to work on your reading skills a bit.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 29, 2008 at 8:24 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther—The term kleptocracy has been suggested for the kind of government you describe.

Some years ago, when I was ranting as usual about the bourgeoisie, a friend interrupted me and said there was no longer any bourgeoisie—there were powerful and rich people, but instead of taking care of business and keeping things going, the dominant types were just looting the system.  I don’t know; while obviously there is some sort of ruling class, it’s hard to say whether it’s doing anything coherent.  It’s not running a fascist state, but as it destroys the country’s Constitution, economy and political culture, it certainly makes the advent of a fascist regime more possible.  And the public drifts along.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

By the way, Anarcissie, you are aware, are you not, that George W. Bush’s paternal grandfather, Prescott, was involved in a fascist plot to overthrow FDR in the early thirties and maintained financial ties to Nazi Germany even after his operation at UBC was shut down by the Alien Property Administrator in 1942.  Prescott continued to maintain financial connections to the Nazi regime even while son George H.W. was off fighting in the Pacific.

So there is more than ideological affinity between the Bush family and the Nazis.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

Oh, so your a big fan in accuracy, are you Anarcissie?  Or is it what-a-sissy?

How about this from Webster’s

Fascism:  1) a political philosophy…nation…above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition; 2) a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

The Bush men fit most of definition (1) and all of definition (2).  Actually, using the word fascist to describe these heroes of yours who, but for the cowardice of Nancy Pelosi, would long ago have been impeached and brought before the bar of justice for crimes against humanity is rather mild.  I can think of no dictatorial 20th Century leader responsible for more deaths than these scum-bag heroes of yours, except Hitler, Stalin—though Pol Pot may have come close.  Add a goose step and they’d be Nazis.  Hows that square with your little brainwashed, neocon mind?

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 29, 2008 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Tony Wicher: ’... Come on, now - if Cheney does not fit that picture perfectly, I don’t know who does. Bush, Cheney and the neocons are fascists, period. ...’

I don’t believe they fill the requirements.  For instance, take the mystical place of nation and war in fascist theology.  Most of Bush’s people are chicken hawks—people who carefully stayed out of war.  By contrast, Hitler, Mussolini, Horthy, and Franco were all veterans, indeed, combat veterans.  The experience of war was highly meaningful to them.  Again, consider that fascism was highly communitarian: in the ideal fascist state, there is a place for everyone and everyone is in his place, contributing to the power of the state.  Bush, Cheney and their neo-con advisers don’t seem to care much about the masses.  Fascists would have made the orderly salvation and rebuilding of New Orleans a poster child for fascism; Bush and Cheney didn’t give a rat.  Fascism sees the state as a progressive, dynamic, total system with will, purpose and coherence; I don’t think Bush and Cheney go much further than the opportunistic imperialism laid down decades ago by Truman, Acheson and Marshall, although some of their neo-con advisers may.  That’s certainly bad enough, but it’s not fascism.

 
cann4ing: ’... people like Arnacissie, Rus & Izzywise are concerned about calling them “fascists”?  Oh Please! ....’

I’m a big fan of accurate description when doing political theory.  Calling the Republicans bad names may be useful on the stump or in the media, but I’m not doing propaganda here.

If you keep flogging the word fascist around, you won’t have anything to call the real fascists when they show up.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 29, 2008 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Rus numbers characterized you as a deceitful liar, Cyrena, and those are the worst kind.  Much worse than honest liars.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, August 29 at 11:47 am #

So get lost rus. You’re a psychopath. Don’t you have any medical insurance coverage to get some medication or a lobotomy or something?
——————————————————————————
Now, cyrena - rus isn’t a psychopath, just a RBy cyrena, August 29 at 11:47 am #


Oh please rus with the numbers, (typical troll affiliation.). Nobody in their right mind believes that Outraged and I are the same posters. So who else is it that supposedly ‘noticed’ this? JBlack? He was the first one to accuse us of it, but you’re both so full of shit that nobody believes you. And when is the last time that you heard Outraged and I ‘congratulate’ each other.

What paranoid schizophrenic you are. Our most recent conversation is more of an argument (though a civil one) than anything congratulatory. Outraged doesn’t hesitate to call me on things that she disagrees with. BOTH of us have been posting since long before you got your job trolling for the GOP rus, and we’ll no doubt be here long after you heroes Dick Bush have been run out of dodge, hopefully to stand trial for all associated war crimes at the Hague.

So get lost rus. You’re a psychopath. Don’t you have any medical insurance coverage to get some medication or a lobotomy or something?
——————————————————————————
Now, cyrena, rus isn’t a psychopath, just a Republican. I wouldn’t even describe him as a troll, since he does not try to conceal the fact. As to the lobotomy, I’d say he’s already had one, but it’s hard to tell with Republicans.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 29, 2008 at 3:32 pm Link to this comment

I would suggest, cann4ing and Anarcissie, that the US has initiated a new political form of despotism, based on what Michael Parenti has called ‘the gangster nature of the state.’  It is not the militaristic fascism of pre ww2 Italy, Gemany and Spain, which had a militaristic-nationalistic ideology which distinguished it deliberately from bourgeois democracy.

The American police state that is developing is based on a kind of Free Enterprise gangsterism, stealing money instead of profiting from legitimate manufuacture.  The purpose of the ruling class is to DESTROY social aspect of the state rather than expand it, while expanding, and privatising, violence and coercion. 

American gunmen now include not only the military and polce, but intelligence agnecies, outsourced corporations, contractors or mercenaries, and vigilantes.  This is a new form, that exists while the liberal institutions are still in place, drained of people power.  The spying on the people by the power system, for example, is a combination of the intelligence agencies, police and communication corportions.

I don’t know what you would call this form: ganster captialism?  You may have some suggestions.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Right on, Tony.  Bush & Cheney are responsible for the deaths of over one million Iraqis.  They have ordered CIA teams to kidnap people from all over the planet, flying them across the globe to dungeons where they are subjected to the most brutal forms of torture.  They have ordered the unlawful surveillance of their own citizens, suspended habeas corpus, erected military tribunals that are straight out of Kafka, raided the national treasury to pay for private armies of mercenaries, sought to hide all that they do behind a veil of secrecy so thick it could be used to replace the dwindling polar ice caps, and people like Arnacissie, Rus & Izzywise are concerned about calling them “fascists”?  Oh Please!

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

By Anarcissie, August 29 at 10:15 am #

While Bush is certainly not a conservative, I don’t think he and his allies fulfill this model.  Except for the neo-con theorists, who do come pretty close, they mostly seem like smash-and-grab types—thugs rather than disciplined Mafiosi.
——————————————————————————-
Anarcissie,

Come on, now - if Cheney does not fit that picture perfectly, I don’t know who does. Bush, Cheney and the neocons are fascists, period.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

Actually, the more classic definition of fascism, Arnacissie entails a blending between corporate power that acts through the state, which is what we have seen under the Bush regime.  Also, fascism does not require a majority to ascend to power—a point proven by Hitler, Franco & Mussolini. 

In this country, as documented by Naomi Klein in “The Shock Doctrine,” we have been in a long descent towards a corporate security state.  Call it fascist, don’t call it fascist.  It has all the earmarks of a descent into totalitarianism with the erection of a surveillance society rivaling that of Orwell’s Oceania; torture and the assault on the very rule of law itself.

Fortunately, the Obama campaign appears to be putting the brakes on that slide.

Report this

By cyrena, August 29, 2008 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

Oh please rus with the numbers, (typical troll affiliation.). Nobody in their right mind believes that Outraged and I are the same posters. So who else is it that supposedly ‘noticed’ this? JBlack? He was the first one to accuse us of it, but you’re both so full of shit that nobody believes you. And when is the last time that you heard Outraged and I ‘congratulate’ each other.

What paranoid schizophrenic you are. Our most recent conversation is more of an argument (though a civil one) than anything congratulatory. Outraged doesn’t hesitate to call me on things that she disagrees with. BOTH of us have been posting since long before you got your job trolling for the GOP rus, and we’ll no doubt be here long after you heroes Dick Bush have been run out of dodge, hopefully to stand trial for all associated war crimes at the Hague.

So get lost rus. You’re a psychopath. Don’t you have any medical insurance coverage to get some medication or a lobotomy or something?

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, August 29, 2008 at 11:15 am Link to this comment

cann4ing: ’... I describe the Bush regime as “fascist” rather than conservative, I do so within the definition of an “American fascist” that was provided by VP Henry Wallace ....’

The word fascism has a definite meaning, succinctly given by Mussolini: “Everything within the state, nothing outside of the state, nothing against the state.”  This is its goal, anyway; until it reaches its goal, it is a mass movement, dynamic, progressive or radical, and fond of racism and nationalism as motivators, and war as a tool.

While Bush is certainly not a conservative, I don’t think he and his allies fulfill this model.  Except for the neo-con theorists, who do come pretty close, they mostly seem like smash-and-grab types—thugs rather than disciplined Mafiosi.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 29, 2008 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

By Yuriy, August 29 at 6:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

I just read an information on http://www.dailymail.co.uk that Georgian troops killed at least 2000 civilians and Russian troops killed 129 civilians….

So who is the aggessor? USA, that sold weapon to Georgia and USA wants new Cold War to begin.

Americans don’t do it.
——————————————————————————-
Yuriy,

I basically agree with you. If it is true the people of South Ossetia and Akhbasia actually voted to become part of the Soviet Union in a fairly conducted referendum, and were attacked by the Georgian government for this, the right is all on the side of Russia. However, this should be left for the World Court to decide. We have had enough of countries acting unilaterally. We must strengthen international law and abide by decisions of the World Court.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 29, 2008 at 8:51 am Link to this comment

As an addendum to my previous post, Izzywise, I would add that when I describe the Bush regime as “fascist” rather than conservative, I do so within the definition of an “American fascist” that was provided by VP Henry Wallace in an article which appeared in the New York Times on April 9, 1944, later quoted by Chris Hedges in “American Fascists:  The Christian Right and the War on America”:

“The American fascist would prefer not to use violence.  His method is to poison the channels of public information.  With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money and more power.

“They claim to be superpatriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution.  They demand free enterprise but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest.  Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjugation.”

Report this

By Yuriy, August 29, 2008 at 7:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I just read an information on http://www.dailymail.co.uk that Georgian troops killed at least 2000 civilians and Russian troops killed 129 civilians….

So who is the aggessor? USA, that sold weapon to Georgia and USA wants new Cold War to begin.

Americans don’t do it.

Report this

By cyrena, August 28, 2008 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment

By Rus7355, August 27 at 4:06 am #

Issywise,

•  Don’t give up. There are a great many people reading from this site that never comment.
There are people, believe it or not, who actually think things through. That use historical facts. People able to put aside their deep seated bigotry.
Keep posting.

BTW: Know that Cyrena and Outraged are the same person(s). Knowing that lends some much needed insight and context.

By Rus7355, August 27 at 4:06 am #
Issywise,
•  “Don’t give up. There are a great many people reading from this site that never comment.

There are people, believe it or not, who actually think things through. That use historical facts. People able to put aside their deep seated bigotry.
Keep posting.

BTW: Know that Cyrena and Outraged are the same person(s). Knowing that lends some much needed insight and context.”

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080812_georgia_war_a_neocon_election_ploy/
~~~~~~~

More proof here for all the world to see. In his words…rus claims that knowing that cyrena and outraged are the same person, ‘lends some much needed insight and context’. That alone speaks to his mentality, if he obtains insight and context from an falsehood created initially by JBlack.

So now, are we to assume that Rus7355 and JBlack are one and the same entities? (note that I didn’t say/write, ‘person’ or person(s)’ since I’m not convinced either of them is. I AM about 93% convinced that rus numbers and JBlack are the same thing though.


Outraged, I don’t know if you were tuning in back several weeks ago, when JBlack was insisting that we were the same. (I saved the posts if you want to read them).

Either way, could I interest you in a session of Truth or Consequences, just to entertain rus7355 and JBlack? Just as proof of his ability to recognize (that he doesn’t have) insight or any recognition of context?

~~~~

Meantime Rus7355, Issywise is actually Ardee, and he picked up his marbles, (or at least the few cracked ones that he might still have) and spilt. He did threaten to drop in again sometime, which obviously prevented the full comfort of relief that we experienced in his departure.

If only you would do the same. But, I guess that’s too much to ask. Besides, there’s the bright side. It’s great fun watching you make a total ass of yourself. Keeps the rest of us from having to point it out.

~~~~~~~

Ed..see what I mean about rus numbers? It’s not just you.

Report this

By cyrena, August 28, 2008 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

By cann4ing, August 28 at 4:37 pm

Ernest,

This two part post was music to my ears. (yeah, yeah, I know…only certain ‘types’ get so jazzed, eh?) wink

Deeelightful!!

Meantime, I’ve become a bit of an MCA fanatic in the past year or so. So, I’m gonna cite you line if I can, here…

“....That sent a shot across the bow of the U.S.S. Unitary Executive which sent Fredo scurrying off to a Republican controlled Congress to secure the abomination known as the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which sought to eliminate Habeas Corpus and erect an immunity from prosecution retroactive to 9/11/01 for all crimes committed in service of the so-called “war on terror.”...”

Yep…it’s true. The name of that abomination should be more appropriately named as ‘CYA’ or Cover Dick Bush’s ASS.

Not gonna work though.

Report this

By cann4ing, August 28, 2008 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

Response to Issywise, Part I

I agree that conservatives are not ruthless fascists.  But you are wrong in thinking that the hard right movement that wrested control of the Republican Party and the radicals in robes from the Robert Bork founded, Richard Mellon Scaife funded Federalist Society are “conservatives.”  John Dean refers to them as “Conservatives without Conscience.”  I think fascist a far more accurate term.

And you are wrong, Issywise.  I am an attorney with 31 years of experience; an individual who graduated from a fully accredited law school 4th in a class of 277 and a lifelong student of the U.S. constitution.

All four Federalist Society jurists—Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Clarence Thomas subscribe to a “Unitary Executive” theory that did not even exist when I attended law school as it wasn’t invented until 1985.

A 2006 report of the bi-partisan American Bar Association Task Force on Presidential Signing Statements concluded that the Alito memorandum provided the underlying premise for what has become a ritualistic practice of tacking on a presidential signing statement to nearly every bill after it is “routed through Vice President Cheney’s office to be searched for perceived threats to the ‘Unitary Executive.’”

Report this

By cann4ing, August 28, 2008 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment

Response to Issywise, Part II

“Unitary Executive” is a theory that is not merely radical but subversive.  Every U.S. President, based upon the mandatory language of Article II of the United States Constitution, takes a solemn oath to see that the laws are faithfully executed.  Then Assistant Attorney General William H. Rehnquist noted in 1969, “It is in our view extremely difficult to formulate a constitutional theory to justify a refusal by the President to comply with a Congressional directive….The execution of any law is, by definition, an executive function, and it seems an anomalous proposition that because the Executive Branch is bound to execute the laws, it is free to decline to execute them.”

You are obviously ignorant of the history behind Boumediene, which is the last of three successive Supreme Court cases pertaining to Guantanamo.  In the first, Rasul, the Court rejected the administration’s claim that Guantanamo was beyond the reach of U.S. law.  The so-called military tribunals, which are straight out of Kafka were the administration’s response.  In Hamdan the Court held that the tribunals violated Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention with Justice Kennedy, a true conservative, adding that violations of Geneva Conventions are punishable as war crimes under the U.S. War Crimes Act.  That sent a shot across the bow of the U.S.S. Unitary Executive which sent Fredo scurrying off to a Republican controlled Congress to secure the abomination known as the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which sought to eliminate Habeas Corpus and erect an immunity from prosecution retroactive to 9/11/01 for all crimes committed in service of the so-called “war on terror.”

In both of these cases the Federalist Society jurists dissented, claiming that the court had no right to interfere with the precepts of the “unitary executive” in his exercise of foreign policy, except that Roberts did not take part in Hamdan since he had already ruled in favor of the Bush regime when he was on the DC Court of Appeal.

I am indeed fully familiar with the provisions of the U.S. Constitution.  I am also familiar with the rock solid arguments advanced by Justice Kennedy on behalf of the majority for holding that the MCA violated the constitution.  You, on the other hand, don’t have a clue.

Report this

By floydw, August 28, 2008 at 11:28 am Link to this comment

Is there a relationship between the release and promotion of Ron Suskind’s book The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism and developments in South Ossetia, Georgia?  Beyond the impact on the election, what influence did these developments have on the news cycle?  As Amy Goodman suggested in a recent editorial, if Speaker Pelosi is still looking for evidence of a crime warranting impeachment, what else does she need?

Report this

By Andrey, August 27, 2008 at 4:12 am Link to this comment

At 7 p.m. on August 8, the day when Olympics started, worldwide community heard from CNN and BBC news that Russian tanks invaded Georgia and that Russia started war with Georgia.

That the war had begun 16 hours earlier by Georgian president Sukashvili’s order these media preferred to pass over in silence.

But you have the right to know truth. That’s how this really happened:

According to old tradition of Olympic Games’ eve everyone was looking for peace and quiet. On August 7, Georgian and South Ossetian officials agreed to observe a ceasefire and hold debates in attempt to solve their long-term conflict peacefully.

August 8, 00:06
Just hours later, six minutes past midnight on August 8, inhabitants of Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, peacefully sleeping in their beds, heard dreadful whizz of incoming rockets. The hell followed soon… Without any declaration Georgian forces launched massive shelling of Tskhinvali with all available means, including heavy artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems GRAD. In this massacre, in just several hours, the whole city was ruined: 2,000 human lives wasted and 85% of all buildings demolished. Georgian military expedition, called “Clean field”, yielded its first fruits…

Ossetia was praying for help. It was already obvious that “clean field” meant nothing else but ethnical cleansing. In these circumstances, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russia would defend Russian citizens who constitute 90% of South Ossetia population.

August 8, 16:00
Russian forces overstepped mountain pass and made their way toward perishing Ossetins. That was exactly the moment when CNN and BBC finally “noticed” the war and broadcasted their «Russians invaded Georgia» scenes. Sukashvili announced that Russia invaded Georgia and held back that he started this horrible bloodshed himself.

Before midnight, Russian and Ossetian forces kicked aggressors out of Ossetian capital. Survived citizens started to leave basements to escape the city. In the next couple days around 30,000 refugees fled to Russia.

Failed Georgian assault turned to informational blackout and devilish propaganda by politicized media feeding us their lies. It’s time when so much depends on your personal position! I believe that there will be journalists who can give objective picture of these events. I believe in people of peace who will regard an attempt of massive extermination of small nation as genocide (3% of South Ossetins and 0.3% of all Ossetins worldwide were killed in just one night on August 8; fascists have never achieved that efficiency in exterminating Jewish people even when Auschwitz and Treblinka were working at full capacity). I believe in a world community that will view Sukashvili’s inhuman orders as war crime and an outrage on humanity. I believe in you, thinking person, able to confront with facts, person who will not follow barefaced propaganda of deeply corrupt media, person able to recognize truth! Please, help to spread words of truth and stop murderers!

PS: Best on http://www.youtube.com about war in Ossetia and Georgian Führer:
-  The truth about South Ossetia War
-  12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia
-  Saakashvili Runs For Cover
-  Saakashvili eats own tie

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 23, 2008 at 11:46 am Link to this comment

Re Issywise:

Looks like cyrena was psychic. Issywise is indeed Ardee. The psychological characteristics are recognizably the same. As soon as seriously challenged, Issywise takes his dolly and dishes and goes home.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 23, 2008 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

By Issywise, August 22 at 4:54 am

OK, at least we’re getting somewhere. Of course, being a Democrat myself, I was well aware of all these developments, but what you were giving me was the (highly negative) conclusion that you apparently drew from these events. So, then, THIS is your main reason for voting for McCain?!?!?? Really???????????

I hardly know where to begin. Perhaps we should take this discussion to another thread. But just to mention a few points: Do you think the Republicans are more democratic than the Democrats? Do you think the Republicans will hesitate to steal this election by voting machine hacking and voter suppression if they think they can get away with it? Do you think the concept of the “Unitary Executive” as developed under Bush, which voids the constitutional principle of separation of powers will not continue under McCain? Do you think the Bush administration has been undermining the Constitution? How do you feel about what the Republicans did to the Justice Department? In general what do you think the Bush Administration? I’m beginning to wonder if you don’t think they have been doing a “heck of a job”.

Report this

By cyrena, August 22, 2008 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Robert!!

Priceless indeed! smile

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, August 22, 2008 at 6:51 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena ...This One Is For You:
======================

YouTube - Priceless


* POLITICS/ELECTIONS/CORRUPTION


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7GApHeJTPU

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, August 22, 2008 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment

Electronic Voting Company Admits System Flaw Could Cause Lost Votes

Democracy Now!

Headlines for August 22, 2008


“A major electronic voting company has acknowledged its voting system contains a critical programming error that can cause votes to be dropped and lost. The company, Premier Election Solutions, formerly known as Diebold, said the problem has been part of its software for ten years but was only recently identified. The flawed software is on both touchscreen and optical scan voting machines made by Premier, which supplies voting machines to thirty-four states.”
———————————————

Hey Ernest watch out…and all other concerned voters.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/22/headlines#2

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, August 22, 2008 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

By Issywise, August 22 at 4:53 am #

What a crybaby.  You should be posting at larrysinclair.com with the other pseudo-intellectuals.

http://larrysinclair0926.com/2522.html?entryId=f7ec29e1601d8ad0e1e2a01474d2affa

Report this

By Folktruther, August 22, 2008 at 10:48 am Link to this comment

The guy, Cyrena, who called the Dems and found no difference, who is then going to vote for McCain, has a rather common view.  In addition to being financially oppressed, he is culturally and ideologically repressed and has backward ethinic and racist attitudes.  He feels that if both parties are the same, he is going to vote for the guy most like him culturally and racially.  A white guy.

In an amusing book WHAT’S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS the author Frank is puzzled as to how in a rust belt when the Gops are driving the people into the ground that the working class can vote for them.  It’s quite simple.  The Dems are driving them into the ground too, so they are identifying with leaders who pretend to have the same backward religous and political values they do.

This is how pols like Bush, the scion of a billionaire family with degrees from the two most Elitist universities and Elitist clubs, can get away with being just folks Against Those Elitist Dems.  The cultural values of the Dems are, indeed, the good part of their Elitist worldview.

Report this

By cyrena, August 22, 2008 at 7:44 am Link to this comment

Folktruther


•  “I’ve had some experience in organizing unions, Cyrena, and most people tend to 1. identify with authority and 2. are afraid to challenge it.  These are just human weaknesses and there is nothing evil about them.”

I agree with this, and never suggested that it was ‘evil’. Not at all. I don’t necessarily even refer to it as ‘human weakness’ though I suspect that #2 here might suggest that. At the end of the day, I’d call it something as simple as a ‘survival instinct’. People don’t easily take positions that could (and are likely to) cause them financial hardship. And, in my experience, that’s what it boils down to. The corps play the heavies. In fact, with my former employer, they always had scabs lined up and prepared to take over, and would have been just fine if the unionized workers never got to return. And, because not ALL of the work groups were represented by unions, they even used the non-union people to do the work of the unionized workers if they did exercise a strike. One time, after months and months of negotiations, one group finally did call a strike, and before they could even make it official,  Bill Clinton cancelled it and told them to get their asses back to work. (they hadn’t even left yet).

It’s a different deal though, to hear from a poster like kdelphi, who recently wrote a long litany of bitter complaints about his own financial situation, with health care, and how he had RA, but couldn’t get medicare to pay for the proper drug for it, (a common problem these days) and how his sister couldn’t afford to do her college music major, because their dad had died after working through to age 76, and the money that their father had left them was drying up, and they couldn’t even sell the house. He was so angry about how bad things were for him, that he says he called the Obama campaign to see if they were going to change any of these circumstances, and was advised that basically nothing different than what he had now, (the medicare) would change. So, based on that, he’s going to vote for McCain! OHHH KAY!! Go figure.


On this:

•  “…You seem to ascribe disagreement to deceit and malicious intent.  I suggest that it is quite natural to disagree, particulaly at a time when the US and the world is in an historical period of ideological transition.”

You’ve obviously read a very, very, *wrong* interpretation into whatever I’ve written. You use the word ‘seem’ to ascribe disagreement to deceit and malicious intent. WRONG. And, the ‘seem’ is a tricky word, though admittedly I use it myself. Kindly give me credit for being able to interpret the difference between ‘disagreement’ which is part of my daily academic activity, and deceit or malicious intent. Both exist in full force on these blogs, and while disagreement is quite welcome, there is a full helping of deceit and malicious intent as well. If anybody can sniff out the difference, I can certainly do it with the best of them. So, please don’t engage in patronizing lectures. Rest assured, I do know the difference.

Report this
Issywise's avatar

By Issywise, August 22, 2008 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

Vince Liberty,

If South Ossetia and Abkhazia are autonomous regions justly subject to invasion by Russia, so too must have been the regions of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland that Nazi Germany invaded to “protect” unhappy German nationals contained within those “foreign” borders.

And just like the German Nazi’s, seventy years later, Russia didn’t restrain its invasion to the regions alleged to be persecuted—those “autonomous”  regions you talk about, but attacked further in, bombing population centers and the like.

What do you think, national borders shouldn’t be acknowledged when military force is applied? What do you think, use of military force by anyone but the US is justified by our evilness?

A bad thing happened and you ought to notice it: Russia after five hundred years of militarism, renounced militarism in 1990. Taken out from under the treat of militarism, nearly a score of independents nations emerged. What happened in Georgia is a reversal of that renouncement of militarism by Russia.

The world can be organized based on a rule of law and non-violent self-determination or it can be organized by military force—which has always been the rule in the past. Might fade some day, but Russia’s re-militarization puts that day off further in the future.

Even if you think the US has behaved horribly in the last 18 years, the fact that Russia is expressing its will and power militarily again is a bad thing.

————————-

Now I’m am outta here. Sorry for distraction from what usually happens here. If I ever feel the need to converse with racists, Shariaist, anarchists, Marxist and partisan zealots, I’ll drop in again.

Report this
Issywise's avatar

By Issywise, August 22, 2008 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

Tony Wicher

Regarding Obama’s voter disenfranchisement judgment, You say: “I was looking at your previous posts…I still have no idea what you are talking about.”

Have you been alive in American during 2008? Millions of primary votes were voided by party officials with Obama’s support! The fact that the vote itself is being screwed-with didn’t register with you? That’s what I’m talking about.

For you to not have noticed this year’s vote voiding and Obama’s role in it, is an act of Ostrich-like head burying. For you to accuse me of vagueness when I assumed you were aware of the vote voiding is pretty ironic.

Here’s some specifics for you: Primaries were instituted decades ago to take the candidate-selection process out of smoky back rooms. State legislatures are legally in control of when primaries are held—always have been always will be: they cost tens of millions of tax dollars, involve thousand of paid volunteers and are run under thousands of state laws and hundreds of federal laws. The primary schedule was,is and always will be a result of the actions of state legislatures.

Before 2000, the parties didn’t pretend to exercise any control. In Florida, Michigan and other states, the people got upset because the candidate selection always took place before they voted—no Florida primary vote has mattered since 1976—over a third of a century. The special elevated importance of non-diverse Iowa and New Hampshire rankled voters in larger diverse states. You missed both of those years-long national developments? They were in the press.

When the legislatures started discussing rescheduling primaries, both party’s national committees decided as a matter of policy that Iowa and New Hampshire MUST matter most. The party committees asserted that they are “in control” of the schedule and adopted rules to half-disenfranchise the voters in every state that moved its date without party permission. Florida’s people, though their legislature, responded that party bosses would not dictate to American voters when they can vote, nor will party bosses be allowed to decide whose vote matters most. The Republican Party stood pat with its half disenfranchisement, but the DNC doubled the penalty to full disenfranchisement after Florida acted in an attempt to intimidate Mich. Mich followed Florida’s lead, making the same points.

Let’s pause here and note that the original purpose of primaries was to take the power out of the hands of insiders. Insiders are now passing on whose vote counts—disenfranchising by the millions.

All of the Republican candidates went to Fla. and Mic. and said vote voiding was both wrong and stupid.

Obama and all the other Democratic candidates endorsed the DNC’s actions because they were pandering to Iowa and N.H. whose party officials were demanding that the candidates shun Fl. and Mi. and affirm the specialness of Iowa and N.H. voters.

Report this
Issywise's avatar

By Issywise, August 22, 2008 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

Since Fl.and Mi. votes wouldn’t count, all the Dem. candidates “took the pledge,” to Iowa and N.H.: they promised not to campaign for votes in Fl. and Mi.—-they were still allowed to collect money to pay for TV ads in Iowa and New Hampshire, but they couldn’t solicit votes—money not votes, get it?  Did you miss all that too?

After the primaries in the voided states—in Florida twice as many Dems cast void votes than the totals in both Iowa and N.H. together, Obama resisted Clinton’s opportunistic insistence that Fla. and Mi. then be counted by saying, “It was unfair to count votes he hadn’t campaign for.” She hadn’t campaigned either, it was his choice not to campaign, American votes were involved, but to Obama “fairness” meant what best served his chances.

His position, as of that time, was that counting American votes should depend on assent of party officials and candidates.  Did you miss that along the way?

Next, under pressure to let the votes count, Obama took the position that he’d “allow” the vote to count if he got to say how they were cast—“an acceptable formula” he called it.

Now, we’ve moved from a politician saying he has to assent to counting votes to him saying, they can count if he gets to say how individual Americans voted.

Finally, once the nomination was won and the votes don’t matter (by the way, where Fl. & Mi. were before they got offended that they hadn’t mattered for decades), Obama says the votes can count half or full—he doesn’t care. So here is what the man stands for, votes can either not matter or not count, unless it serves his personal purposes that they do matter and count.

A man with those democratic values is unfit to lead a democratic nation.

Screw that racist bigot cyrena. She’s an idiot crackpot. Do you read the nonsense she spouts? Vitriol! Even when one agree with her conclusions, how she gets there is just plain nuts. Fadel is a Shariaist, Folktruther a Marxist, Anarcissie an anarchist, and you—you complete the circle. You reason backwards from the major party partisan choice you’ve made.

None of you are open-minded in the least. Every fact has to be ignored or pounded into a shape that fits your preconceptions. The only things you all have in common is your sense of aggrievement and willingness to insult and dismiss people who disagree with you.

A forum like this is only useful only if 1) it informs or if 2) it allows action-orientated coalescence. What you’ve got here is reflexive mutual hostility and butt-sitting intellectual masturbation.

Blogs are worthless. Gormlessness afoot. I’m gone. You should be too. Try gathering information with an open mind from a credible source instead of just emoting.

Report this

By Folktruther, August 21, 2008 at 10:52 pm Link to this comment

I agree, Tony Wicher, that there are Dem progressive leaders that would like to reduce the military budget. But I never said that Obaama should take a public position during the election of reducing it 90%.  Should any progressive get elected on such a platform he would probably be assassinated. 

But the fear that countries can’t defend themselves with their own troops is just a red herring.  The US in any case will withdraw their troops possibly, as Chalmers Johnson says, becausse of eventual bankruptcy, or because of economic or political collapse, or thermonuclear war.

I’ve had some experience in organizing unions, Cyrena, and most people tend to 1. identify with authority and 2. are afraid to challenge it.  These are just human weaknesses and there is nothing evil about them.

You seem to ascribe disagreement to deceit and malicious intent.  I suggest that it is quite natural to disagree, particulaly at a time when the US and the world is in an historical period of ideological transition. 

In rightwing blogs the loonies there adopt the Roach Limbargher schoold of discourse.  Like the dirigible of drivel himself, they debate like baboons: gibber, grunt and throw feces at each other.

This is what the Dems did to Nader; he is an honest and dedicated liberal, whom I disagree with, but would not personally attack.  He was called a “total asshole” on the front page of Huffington post.  As the Dems degnenerate, the Limbargher school becomes more in evidence. There is no other alternatiave as they sell out the population.

Report this

By Vince Liberty, August 21, 2008 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

RE: The devolution of this thread into an argument about Obama;

Let’s get one thing straight - these two are, first and formost, politicians. They will do and say whatever they think they have to to win. Ideology, if any discernible one exists, has nothing to do with it.

Of McCain and Obama, the latter has been the bigger flip-flopper, in particular, his cave on the FISA thing, an opportunity to take a principled stand and look like a real hero at almost no political cost, was the most shameful capitulation yet. Even his abandonment of a realist for a weak Zionist position in front of AIPAC pales in comparison. A candidate for president who in his official current office votes to suspend natural human rights and violate the Constitution isn’t worth much. And on Iraq, he’s slipperier than he sounds, while on Afghanistan ad Pakistan, he is simply awful.

Having said that, McCain is far, far worse. He seems to honestly believe in an aggressive foreign policy, he tells the truth about his desire to invade the entire Middle East (and the Caucasus), and sponsored THE worst violation of the First Amendment right up until the Patriot Act.

It’s enough to make one vote Libertarian (though Bob Barr vaguely creeps me out), or write-in Ron Paul.

I’m sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. Because, whoever wins is still pretty evil.

Report this

By Vince Liberty, August 21, 2008 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

Was arguing that the Georgia affair was dreamed up by the people behind the Bush Administration to somehow give McCain a boost over Obama. A few things have happened that they didn’t count on;

1) Despite their best efforts at spinning this as Russia attacking an innocent Democracy, it’s getting out that Russia was simply repelling a Georgian invasion of autonomous South Ossetia and Abkhazia;

2)Alleged Secretary of State Condi Rice is doing every wrong thing possible, yet not doing the one thing she arguably SHOULD be doing - talking to her Russian counterpart. The media, captured as it is, still seems to get this.

3) McCain got zero bounce from this splendid little “Wag The Dog” exercise

4) The public seems little concerned about this, particularly as the slaughter in Iraq grinds on, and the US economy is circling the drain.

Report this

By Vince Liberty, August 21, 2008 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

Rus 7355 sez;

” If not for America Hitler’s Germany would have likely controlled East and Western Europe for generations. If not for America Japanese Militarism would have likely surpassed all imagination. If not for America Soviet influence around the globe would have gone completely unchecked.”

Yes, and if the evil Woodrow Wilson hadn’t lied the US into the senseless WWI, the Brits would have had to sue for peace in 1917, the Nazis would never have had the juice to come to power, and the Bolsheviks would have failed in Russia. Also, no Pearl Harbor. How’s THAT for an alternate history?

Report this

By cyrena, August 21, 2008 at 9:43 pm Link to this comment

By Tony Wicher, August 21 at 5:07 pm
To Issywise
•  “Well, I still have no idea what you are talking about. What particular thing did Obama do or say that you are objecting to with such vehemence. You don’t even say. This is just the sort of thing cyrena has been pointing out. When it gets down to specifics, you are not there. You just give innuendo and vague negative attacks. Put up or shut up, Issywise. Exactly what the hell are you talking about in this case, if it is a case? “
~~~~
Yep Tony,

This is *exactly* what I was talking about. Issywise does it, along with thebeerdoctor, folktruther, max shields, jblack. And rus7355 is among the worst. And, they do it with deceit and malice intent. I can’t say one is any worse than the other, because the degrees change back and forth. Rus is particularly heinous and morally criminal in his, because he mimics and/or plagiarizes stuff from other posters and inverts or otherwise redirects the context in an attack form. They’re all engaged in tossing IED’s (Insinuation/innuendo, exaggeration, distortion/disinformation) as red herrings.  In other words, just throw enough shit out there, and hope some of it will stick. But, it’s never even original. It’s always the same old shit. They just recycle it, and there is never a connection to anything, because that isn’t the point. The point is only to put negative smears out there. It is the epitome of deceit and perfidy, but the Internet allows them to get away with it, proving the paradox of the value of this form of mass communication.

I remember having several in-depth conversations about this with old colleagues back in the days when more people were able to ‘connect’ with the rest of the world via the Internet. Back then, we were all being plagued with this same stuff via chain emails, (which still find their ways through certain demographics). At the time, it was particularly destructive, because most of us were likely to believe the stuff, especially the more naïve among us, who simply could not comprehend the purpose of anyone making up incredible lies. (just like we wouldn’t expect the average person to holler fire in a dark and crowded theater when there wasn’t one). I told her that I didn’t understand it either, (because at the time, I didn’t) I couldn’t understand the motives/intent behind the action, because it pointed to pure evil. (guess I was naïve as well). I’ve spent my life dealing with the ‘mass public’, so I could understand the intent related to personal enrichment, (people will lie and/or do whatever to gain ‘personal’ advantage) But I couldn’t understand the advantage of just making up incredible lies to pass out en masse. Some of it I was willing to chalk it up to mass ignorance, but not mass malfeasance. Now I know that it doesn’t take ‘mass’ malfeasance. It only takes a few, to then be picked up and carried along by the more uninformed. That too is the point of the ‘operation’.

But, in the years since, (and especially after the Swiftboating of John Kerry, and the massive lies of the Dick Bush gangster regime) I’ve had to accept it for what it really is, and I guess it’s no different than what individuals will do to gain personal advantage. In politics, group v personal interests have little difference. I realized that long ago, and TD has been the perfect example. It doesn’t take long to figure out that those people who are adamantly opposed to Obama fall into some loosely defined categories. 1st, they are among the more economically/financially enfranchised, and democrats in general, (but especially a black one) are seen as a danger to the protection of their wealth. Listen to Marshall and a few others, who are terrified that there will be some redistribution of wealth via the tax structure. Oddly enough, (or maybe not so oddly at all) that’s the same story on the front of one of our local newspapers today. “Candidate Tax Platforms and Voter Wealth.

Report this

By cyrena, August 21, 2008 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment

II

It’s the age old power struggle between the haves and the have-nots. Those that ‘have’ want to keep what the have, at the expense of those that don’t have. Republicans (especially in the past 4 decades) have represented the ‘haves’ (corps) and the Dems have traditionally represented those who are exploited to the benefit of the “have nots.” And the more ignorant, (even among the have nots) will still be fooled into voting against their own best interests, because of other ideologically based motivations. In this election, racism would be the definer that allows even the have nots to vote against themselves, and that’s the 2nd group. They are either ignorant and/or easily fooled, or they simply will not vote for a black person, under any circumstances.

So this group of ‘haves’, even if they’re only middle class compare to the real money power brokers, will appeal to and exploit the ignorance of the have nots, and they’ve done that partially by trying to make Obama appear to be an ‘elitist’ and more like THEY are themselves. This is really effective with the poor, regardless of racial breakdowns, but especially among the rapidly evaporating middle class of whites, and has always been the case with poor whites. There’s a definite resentment of any person of color appearing to be ‘better off’ than they are.

It’s extremely difficult to rationalize or otherwise comprehend, even for those of us who’ve spent time studying it. But, this explains why in my former career, after years of attempts, we were never able to unionize one of the largest segments of the worker force. Workers would consistently vote against their own interests, on behalf of the corporations. Scheer speaks to this in his most recent article here. He questions how people who have lost their homes, (and I would add life savings, health care) to these same republicans, would continue to elect them.  But, they do. At least PART of the reason is the disinformation that these people, (in this case posters like Issywise, or Max, or Marshall) can continue to throw these IED red herrings out there.

It’s kind of ironic that he’s going on about massive voter disenfranchisement now, even though he’s addressing a different issue. (probably another disgruntled Clintonista). I say that because while there certainly was massive voter disenfranchisement in the 2004 election, similar to what we’ve always had in areas where the poor and people of color are concentrated, there is a far greater risk of that now, as a result of all of the foreclosures, and the huge increase in the homeless population. It’s ironic because just as I was reading this, a worker for the Obama campaign in my area came to the door. He was registering people, and asked if there was a particular reason why I was registered as “DS” which means ‘Declined to State”. I hated admitting to my own ignorance in registering that way when I returned to California after those years in Texas. In Texas, I’d discovered that the odds were really stacked against Democrats in general, so I’d switched to an Independent status, thinking it would somehow give me more options than ‘the least of the evils.” I don’t know that it ever mattered, but I guess it made me feel better.

Report this

By cyrena, August 21, 2008 at 9:41 pm Link to this comment

III

However, I didn’t realize until the primary, (here in California) that DS wasn’t the same as “Independent” because as an absentee “Declined to State” voter, I was only entitled to a non-partisan ballot. (in other words, I couldn’t vote for any political party candidate). So it meant that I had to take my non-partisan ballot to a precinct, and swap it out for a ballot of a party that was on record as accepting voters that were DS. (ah yes, the bureaucracy). That alone is disenfranchisement if you ask me. The apparatus of the bureaucracy is enough to discourage many from even attempting it. Needless-to-say, that is even MORE of an issue now, because of the increased displacement of so much of the population.

Anyway, I was pleased to discover that there is a concerted effort, (at least here in my area) to reach these homeless or otherwise disenfranchised voters. The guy this evening said that was in fact his primary area of involvement. So, that was one good thing that happened today. I’ve come out of the closet so-to-speak, and am now a full fledged Democrat of record again. And, I can share some tips for those who might have recently become homeless, or are likely to become that way between now and Election Day. All voters are required to provide a physical address, so that could be difficult, if one is in a tent city or parking lot. Can’t really use, ‘Mesa Beach” or the Albertson’s lot at the corner of XYZ. But, most shelters in any area will allow their addresses to be used as the required physical address. It’s best if one can also afford a PO Box, because that will allow for absentee/mail vote, in the event that one cannot get to the precinct of the homeless shelter location.  (from the standpoint of an academic researcher, the use of the homeless shelters as addresses is very helpful. It allows (to some extent) for the statistical research that would otherwise be difficult to document. (we’d have to rely on fake figures from the feds)

By the way, I STILL don’t have a clue to what Issywise is talking about. What’s up with the deciding of whether or not one’s son or daughter’s vote should count, and how does Obama play into this?

More bullshit.

Report this
Tony Wicher's avatar

By Tony Wicher, August 21, 2008 at 7:35 pm Link to this comment

Re Folktruther, August 21 at 11:42 am #


I would love to see the U.S. withdraw all forces stationed overseas and cut the military budget by 90%. So would Kucinich and Mike Gravel. The chance of this happening are about as small as the chance of either of them being elected. If Obama took this position his chances would be similar. But if by some miracle Kucinich were teleported into the Presidency and instituted such a policy, I am not sure whether the resulting power vacuum might not lead to all sorts of wars. I think a world without war can probably only be achieved through alliances and international institutions, political and economic, that limit national soverignty, through multilateral negotiations, not through unilateral disarmament. I believe Obama will take us in that direction, whereas McCain is a unilateralist militarist to the bone who believes in nothing but war and will do everything to undermine international institutions.

Report this

By Sepharad, August 21, 2008 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher,

Maybe Issywise is referring to the Michican and Florida voters who were told their delegates couldn’t be seated at the Dem convention because they held their primaries out of turn. Obama and his people refused to the seating of these voters’ delegates unless they split the delegates equally, though Hillary had more votes and presumably would have had more delegates. Neither Clinton nor Obama campaigned in those states, so I do believe the voters’ opinions were valid and should have been counted. It was a very close thing—as in the Bush-Gore contest—and would have been better to let the rules defer to common sense and voter intent. 

I know the DNC has its rules, but the primary system sucks and I can understand why states might want to have their votes counted before they become irrelevant. I don’t even like the delegate/electoral college system: it is not one citizen one vote and makes us not a democracy but a sort of half-assed republic. So I didn’t care that they broke the rules and thought their delegates should have been seated anyway. I’d have thought so even if I weren’t for Clinton instead of Obama. Just seems stupid to call our government a democracy when the primary isn’t nationwide and open to all voters. If it were, maybe we’d get more credible and possibly successful third parties, like Kucinich’s. Give the Republicans a real run for their money.

Report this

Page 1 of 5 pages  1 2 3 >  Last »

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.

Like Truthdig on Facebook